Rally2 (ex-R5) News

[Gordini]

The new R4T rallycar, is it news on it?

[Mirek]

There is already a thread for R4T: http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/147200-development-s1600-4wd-rallycar-2013-a.html

[Sulland]

If the name will be R4T I am think the admin/mods can transfer the content of the other thread to this one, and delete the other one. :)

[dumb]

Why to name it like that?
R4 are Lancer EVO and Impreza. They already have turbo without "T" in the name.

[Tom206wrc]

Peugeot confirmed they were preparing a 208 R4T that'll be developped during 2012 and ready for 2013 ;)

[Sulland]

Skoda will also make one I think.

If FIA hits target with the tech reg of this class, I think it will be the most popular class pf all times, when we are talking numbers sold.

And in this class privat tuners will be free to build cars.

[Gordini]

Are the technic Regulations for R4T finished, and given to car makers?
Why not to the public if finished?

[PLuto]

Yes, car manufacturers has this regulations...

[Abarth]

Skoda will also make one I think.

If FIA hits target with the tech reg of this class, I think it will be the most popular class pf all times, when we are talking numbers sold.

And in this class privat tuners will be free to build cars.

I fully agree, that if FIAs regulations give a car with sound and feel as a S2000 na, it will become even bigger than s2000 and a goldmine for tuners. But sound and enough power together with a simple car to maintain is the key

[Sulland]

How far are the 208 and Fabia or others by now ?

[Tom206wrc]

I think the 208 will debut real tests on road(with Bouffier ??)by summer :confused:

[RS]

I think the 208 will debut real tests on road(with Bouffier ??)by summer :confused:

At the latest I guess if they want to be ready for the start of 2013.

I suppose the Fabia will come later as the next Fabia road car is not due intil 2013.

I'm curious about seeing these cars, I'm not convinced they will be great to watch but I hope I'm wrong!

[Sulland]

Yes, car manufacturers has this regulations...

Do anyone here know if max width will be as s2000 at 1820mm?
What will the restrictor size be on R4T?

[Mirek]

These cars are supposed to have no wide body kit to make them cheaper (if it hasn't changed). Restrictor size was not revealed but I heard they consider use of 32 mm.

[mousti]

Is this the 208 R4T in the making??

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430225_347223341974848_118252478205270_1094893_114 244397_n.jpg

[dimviii]

Is this the 208 R4T in the making??

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430225_347223341974848_118252478205270_1094893_114 244397_n.jpg

more photos?

[mousti]

more photos?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/426960_392795167402392_186859987995912_1875278_116 2424203_n.jpg

that's all for now.

[dimviii]

at 2nd photo seems that the central tunnel is modified,but can t be sure.If we had a photo from inside the car at better angle would be easier to undestand.
are there any other 208s are already competing? i don t think, so this can be the r4t 208.

[mousti]

It's taken in a Peugeot Sport factory so it's really a new global project. It's probably indeed the first R4T in the making.

[Tom206wrc]

Looks like it could also be the 208 R2(contender of Twingo, C2, Fiesta, Fabia) :confused:

[Mirek]

at 2nd photo seems that the central tunnel is modified,but can t be sure.If we had a photo from inside the car at better angle would be easier to undestand.
are there any other 208s are already competing? i don t think, so this can be the r4t 208.

Still it is stock tunnel. Can they get prop-shaft and exhaust in?

[dimviii]

Still it is stock tunnel. Can they get prop-shaft and exhaust in?
exhaust even for the factory car the space is there,but for the prop-shaft definetely no.

[Mirek]

Maybe they use electric engines for rear wheels :D

[Mirek]

Is this the 208 R4T in the making??

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430225_347223341974848_118252478205270_1094893_114 244397_n.jpg

Another thing I can see is that the car doesn't have McPherson mounting point at the rear, so if this is a picture of R4T, than it looks like it will really keep suspension of same type with stock car. Since most of these cars have torsion beam rear axle, it may be pretty difficult to make it working well with 4WD...

[A FONDO]

probably you're right, indeed its group R not A

[HarriK]

It's R2:
Voir le sujet - Peugeot 208 R2 par Peugeot Sport : la version rallye ! - Forum Peugeot 208 - Féline 208 : Le premier site sur la Peugeot 208 ! (http://www.feline208.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=255)

[Sulland]

It's R2:
Voir le sujet - Peugeot 208 R2 par Peugeot Sport : la version rallye ! - Forum Peugeot 208 - Féline 208 : Le premier site sur la Peugeot 208 ! (http://www.feline208.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=255)

And probably also R3T, since they have the engine and box inhouse.

[Susiraja]

And probably also R3T, since they have the engine and box inhouse.

Peugeot Sport pages says there would be an R2 and an R4T.

Peugeot Sport - CIRCUIT - news-944-peugeot-sport-s-2012-customer-competition-programme (http://www.peugeot-sport.com/en/circuit/news-944-peugeot-sport-s-2012-customer-competition-programme.html)

[cut full]

as rallye-magazin.de says, 208 r4t is going to be presented at autosalon genf on march 8th :)

[RS]

as rallye-magazin.de says, 208 r4t is going to be presented at autosalon genf on march 8th :)

Cool, then hopefully soon after we will see testing videos.

Have the rules actually been finalised yet?

[cut full]

Have the rules actually been finalised yet?

yes, PLuto wrote it already on dec 29th.

I cant wait see the car driving the first time!

[Sulland]

There are people on other forum that are saying that the basics og the regs are done, but there are details missing from the regs. And thatmthose missing details are the reason that Peugeot are giving pri to R2/R3T and the two shells meant for R4T is standing still developmentwise.

Can anyone confirm or deny this, that the complete R4T regs are not done yet?

[Mirek]

208 R4T development definitely isn't standstill. The reason R2 is development is faster is that it's much simpler car based on existing C2 R2.

[Andre Oliveira]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qDrFhEyRwrs/TznOGqjwXII/AAAAAAAAThE/qMPDplhtpA8/s1600/12507_v_peugeot_sportu_vznikaji_dve_soutezni_verze _208_bca26f5cfe.jpg

[OldF]

It’s going to be interesting to see if all the updates allowed in R3/R3T plus the 4WD kit can be implemented in the R4T within a reasonable cost.

Already the switch from a 6-gear gearbox that S2000/WRC is using to a 5-gear gearbox could save some costs. At least this is the case between R2 (5-gear) and R3 (6-gear).

The spare part price for a 5-gear R2 gearbox is between 4700 € (Fiesta R2) to 5700 € (Fabia R2). For a R3 (Renault Clio & Honda Civic) 6-gear gearbox the spare part price is about 9000 €.

By this the R2 5-gearbox is about 42% cheaper compared to a 6-gear R3 gearbox or the price of a 5-gear gearbox is about 58% of the price for a 6-gear gearbox.

Another would be if the engine could be kept standard but would the standard engine cope with a power increase from about 150 hp to about 300 hp.

[Sulland]

208 R4T development definitely isn't standstill. The reason R2 is development is faster is that it's much simpler car based on existing C2 R2.

Makes sense, does your scources also tell you that all manufacurers have recieved a 100% complete and approved by FIA set of R4T tech regs to build from ?

[Mirek]

It’s going to be interesting to see if all the updates allowed in R3/R3T plus the 4WD kit can be implemented in the R4T within a reasonable cost.

Already the switch from a 6-gear gearbox that S2000/WRC is using to a 5-gear gearbox could save some costs. At least this is the case between R2 (5-gear) and R3 (6-gear).

The spare part price for a 5-gear R2 gearbox is between 4700 € (Fiesta R2) to 5700 € (Fabia R2). For a R3 (Renault Clio & Honda Civic) 6-gear gearbox the spare part price is about 9000 €.

By this the R2 5-gearbox is about 42% cheaper compared to a 6-gear R3 gearbox or the price of a 5-gear gearbox is about 58% of the price for a 6-gear gearbox.

Another would be if the engine could be kept standard but would the standard engine cope with a power increase from about 150 hp to about 300 hp.

But the R2 gearbox is also built for smaller torque than the R3 one. That's not the case of R4T where it will have to cope with much higher torque than in R3T (if they switch from 29 to 32 mm restrictor with otherwise similar engine). Less gears mean less parts but I think there will be higher stress on them due to bigger steps between gears. Current X-Trac gearbox for S2000 costs around 20 thousand. Let's see...

[dimviii]

+1@Mirek
the difference in price between the 5speed and 6speed gearboxes isnt just the 1 gear more.There are other points make them much more expensive.
Torque they can cope,sequential or not, casing oem or new cast,how many sell them etc.

[OldF]

OK, my comparison was too straightforward. Any idea how much the higher torque vs. one more gear explains the price difference?

To be more precise I should also have said:

“Another would be if the engine could be kept standard but would the standard engine cope with the higher torque”.

[dimviii]

OK, my comparison was too straightforward. Any idea how much the higher torque vs. one more gear explains the price difference?

To be more precise I should also have said:

“Another would be if the engine could be kept standard but would the standard engine cope with the higher torque”.

can t understand what you mean mate.

[Mirek]

I don't think we can estimate cost differences. We don't know the regulations (also price level set by FIA which is applied for example for S2000), numbers for production, in fact almost nothing...

[OldF]

can t understand what you mean mate.

Which part?

[dimviii]

Which part?

all :D

[OldF]

all :D


I compared (post #35) gearboxes with different amount of gears and torque (R2 having 5 gears and coping less torque compared to a 6 gear R3 gearbox). Then I just wondered how much coping with higher torque affect the price compared to more gears (5 gears vs. 6 gears).

In the second part I was referring to my previous post (#35) where I said:

“Another would be if the engine could be kept standard but would the standard engine cope with a power increase from about 150 hp to about 300 hp.”

Instead I should have said:

“Another would be if the engine could be kept standard but would the standard engine cope with the higher torque”.

Torque instead of power because it’s the torque that counts.

[dimviii]

I compared (post #35) gearboxes with different amount of gears and torque (R2 having 5 gears and coping less torque compared to a 6 gear R3 gearbox). Then I just wondered how much coping with higher torque affect the price compared to more gears (5 gears vs. 6 gears)..

Now i understand :D
you can t measure it because there are plenty of factors that affect the price.
simple example....for evo 9-10 a 5speed dog-box ,you can buy as new from 5000 euros to 10000 euros.Depents from the manufacture.
sequential dog boxes for evo 9-10 start from 8000 to 12000 euros.
All of them have the same gears(5 or 6speed) all straight cut,all can cope with torque at wrc level,and plenty of them have been worked perfectly at 500-600-800 bhp time attack cars.Also the ''cheap'' ones.


In the second part I was referring to my previous post (#35) where I said:

“Another would be if the engine could be kept standard but would the standard engine cope with a power increase from about 150 hp to about 300 hp.”

Instead I should have said:

“Another would be if the engine could be kept standard but would the standard engine cope with the higher torque”.

Torque instead of power because it’s the torque that counts.
normaly a factory build turbocharged engine can cope a lot of power more.Again depents from engine to engine.
Example,a oem evo 9 -10engine totally standart(oem headgasket,bolts everything) can cope easily at 400-430 bhp and 500-600nm torque.In standart form evo engine rated at 280-300 bhp.Not just for rallies,also for streetcars also.
So we have a about 30% more power safely.
but you can t have a rule for every engine.Some are much more bullet proof than others.
Evo engines are very strong internally,can t be an example for every engine.
weakest point at oem engines when you want plenty of torque is the rods.Because of antilag, oem small turbos,plus restrictor, they produce a LOT of torque at low-mid revs.
But you can pass it,with a homologation just for new rods.Mitsubishi did it, for evo 8mr-9-10. ;) the ''new'' rods were installed direct from factory at newer models,when they saw that the first batch rods couldn t cope with grN torque.

[OldF]

Now i understand :D
you can t measure it because there are plenty of factors that affect the price.
simple example....for evo 9-10 a 5speed dog-box ,you can buy as new from 5000 euros to 10000 euros.Depents from the manufacture.
sequential dog boxes for evo 9-10 start from 8000 to 12000 euros.
All of them have the same gears(5 or 6speed) all straight cut,all can cope with torque at wrc level,and plenty of them have been worked perfectly at 500-600-800 bhp time attack cars.Also the ''cheap'' ones.


normaly a factory build turbocharged engine can cope a lot of power more.Again depents from engine to engine.
Example,a oem evo 9 -10engine totally standart(oem headgasket,bolts everything) can cope easily at 400-430 bhp and 500-600nm torque.In standart form evo engine rated at 280-300 bhp.Not just for rallies,also for streetcars also.
So we have a about 30% more power safely.
but you can t have a rule for every engine.Some are much more bullet proof than others.
Evo engines are very strong internally,can t be an example for every engine.
weakest point at oem engines when you want plenty of torque is the rods.Because of antilag, oem small turbos,plus restrictor, they produce a LOT of torque at low-mid revs.
But you can pass it,with a homologation just for new rods.Mitsubishi did it, for evo 8mr-9-10. ;) the ''new'' rods were installed direct from factory at newer models,when they saw that the first batch rods couldn t cope with grN torque.


Thanks Dimviii,

That’s what I’ve thought, the evo engines are very robust already as standard. This what I had in mine when I wonder if standard 1.6T would cope with higher power.

I also read on a site that the standard evo intercooler can cope with 500 hp.

Google Kääntäjä (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kosunenracing.com%2Fturbo.html)

[dimviii]

I also read on a site that the standard evo intercooler can cope with 500 hp.

depents a lot from outside temperature.In Greece for example on a dynometer with good ventilation/fans when outside temperatures are about 25 celsious or more you are going to see decrease in power after 3-4 runs.All this at 380-400 bhp and 500nm.Depents from the pressure you have on turbo a lot.Now you can imagine what happens at 30 or 35 celsious that are common in Greece,Italy Portugal Spain etc.In Greece we use to change the intercooler to uprated ones,even with stock turbos and not so extreme turbo absolut pressures at road cars.In grN is forbidden.
generally 500 bhp is a lot for the standart intercooler .You are not going to have problem at engine,but you are going to loose power after some minutes of hard driving.Air Inlet temperature are going to climb after some minutes.On a dyno,with just 2-3 runs and low exterior temps is ok,but at road ,its not ok. ;)

[Gordini]

Makes sense, does your scources also tell you that all manufacurers have recieved a 100% complete and approved by FIA set of R4T tech regs to build from ?

Can someone confirm the 100% finished regulations by fia?

[Mirek]

I'm almost sure they are not completely finished.

[Mirek]

I heard bodykit and wide suspension would be used for R4T after all.

[liposh]

And are the bodykit and wide suspensions really so expensive? Any idea about the prices? Without the wide suspensions it would be only half fun watching these cars: for example here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyKSHh2gzko

[RS]

I heard bodykit and wide suspension would be used for R4T after all.

I hope so. Competition cars should look special.

[RS]

Are anyone else other than Peugeot & Skoda either working on an R4T car or considering one? Ford? Renault?

[Mirek]

Later there will be also Citroën DS3 according to PSA officials. I think that Wilson once said they would built Fiesta R4T as well.

[Sulland]

Most sucsessful purposebuildt Rallycartype so far has been S2000, with aprox 300 sold.

The new carclass will become the new tier 2 rallycar, right under WRC Internationally, Regionally and Nationally.
If R4T keep a pricetag of half a S2000, how long will it take for R4T to pass 300?

[Tom206wrc]

Peugeot pictures and wallpapers (http://www.netcarshow.com/peugeot/2012-208_gti_concept)
Mmmmh...I guess it will be a very good basis on what to work for the R4T program :cool:

[Sulland]

Very nice car, back to 205 lines. If they were allowed to widen it a bit it would be very cool!

[oyunbozan]

awww i am totaly messed up here becouse i find no difference between theese R4T and s2000 turbos like fiesta RRC and mini s2000, will S2000 come to end?

[Sulland]

As far as I have understood, FIAs plan is to kill off S2000 NA, RRC will never be allowed to take off due to cost, N4 will slowly die.

So internationally we will eventually have:
WRC
R4T
GT
R3T
R2
R1

[OldF]

Most sucsessful purposebuildt Rallycartype so far has been S2000, with aprox 300 sold.

The new carclass will become the new tier 2 rallycar, right under WRC Internationally, Regionally and Nationally.
If R4T keep a pricetag of half a S2000, how long will it take for R4T to pass 300?

And how many N4 are out there which could possibly be replaced by R4T?

[Sulland]

And how many N4 are out there which could possibly be replaced by R4T?

A huge number, but to do that we need a pricetag for a new one that a national driver can afford, and few upgrades to keep it possible to fight for the top in a 2-3 year old car.

N4 cars will live on for many years in national series, as a good cheap 4wd class. Maybe with a new more open exhaust system, it might sound the part as well!

[Tom206wrc]

If Citroën wanted to develop an R4T rally car based on the DS4 R Concept presented this morning, I'd be all for it :bounce:
Cars - All Makes. All Models. - NetCarShow.com (http://www.netcarshow.com/citroen/2012-ds4_racing_concept/)

[Sulland]

Any more pics from Peugeot Sport on the develpment of the 208?

[Tom206wrc]

For now only pics of the 208 R2 testing :mark:

[HaCo]

According tot rallye-magazin.de this class becomes R5!

[Sulland]

R5 really makes sense.
When will they understand that WRC should be renamed R1, R5 change to R2 and so on. Logical FIA pattern really! And RGT deserve to break the pattern !!!

[Gordini]

What is news on 208 R4T or R5?

[noel157]

Should have a chassis ready for testing very soon. R3T has had more tests recently.

[Tom206wrc]

Today on Facebook of Peugeot-Sport, "something" regarding a racing 208 must be revealed :confused:
Peugeot Sport | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/peugeot.sport)

[Sulland]

Looks like a comeback for Talbot: Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?twu=1?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//www.tf1.fr/auto-moto/actualite/le-ramdam-du-jour-peugeot-208-talbot-sport-7218982.html)

Peugeot does the retro sportsbrand trick, ala Abarth and Alpine - cool, and might be that the R5 will be a Talbot?

[Tom206wrc]

In fact it was the 208 R2, not R4... :mark:
But nice livery, I expect same on the future R4T(or R5 or whatever) :bounce:

[Sulland]

Any news on the Fabia R5 development process ?
Are there any plan of a R3 Skoda ?

[Mirek]

Everything is pretty much secret as the new R5 will come with the new generation of Fabia.

[Sulland]

And the new Fabia will launch mid 2013 I read somewhere. So then I guess the R5 will be on sale 5 minutes after that!

[Tom206wrc]

Official presentation of the Peugeot 208 R5 scheduled for september ;)

[Sulland]

Official presentation of the Peugeot 208 R5 scheduled for september ;)

Cool, looking forward to the first testvideo!

[Sulland]

Official presentation of the Peugeot 208 R5 scheduled for september ;)

Is it then logic to assume that Peugeot will follow the same pattern as for the 208 R2, that first they present the car, and then a test period, then homologation and the car goes on sale?

[Sulland]

According to latest GPWeek in the DS3 article, it is mentioned that Citroen is planning/ working on a R5 version of DS3 !

[PLuto]

Yes, Peugeot and Citroen will have R5 car... It should be a part of switching, when Peugeot will go back to WRC and Citroen to regional championships...

[HaCo]

And VW?

Verstuurd van mijn ARCHOS 80G9 met Tapatalk

[Tom206wrc]

Yes, Peugeot and Citroen will have R5 car... It should be a part of switching, when Peugeot will go back to WRC and Citroen to regional championships...



You have news(or strong rumours)of a return of Peugeot in WRC ??? :eek:

[dimviii]

r4t?????????? or r5????????????? or 208wrc???????????
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/532309_387364914658281_1542264843_n.jpg

[pantealex]

r4t?????????? or r5????????????? or 208wrc???????????

R4T no R5 no 208WRC no Photoshop yes ;)

[dimviii]

R4T no R5 no 208WRC no Photoshop yes ;)

the ratio between wheels vs bodywork is amazing :D

[Abarth]

Still no news?
will we see pics or film on 208 before september?

Any rumors on other brands, Fiat maybe?

[Mirek]

I heard the homologation of first R5 cars was postponed to late 2013. Don't know if that is true.

[MJW]

I heard the homologation of first R5 cars was postponed to late 2013. Don't know if that is true.
Is that a significant date? I am told ALL WRC events are only being offered a one year deal for the calendar - 2013, could there be a significant re-launch of WRC in time for 2014, with R5T as the top class?

[Sulland]

Is that a significant date? I am told ALL WRC events are only being offered a one year deal for the calendar - 2013, could there be a significant re-launch of WRC in time for 2014, with R5T as the top class?

Would be perfect, as long as the ragulations are kept so simple the cars will still be in the 100-150 000€ range. If not this exercise will be a complete waste!

[Mirek]

Is that a significant date? I am told ALL WRC events are only being offered a one year deal for the calendar - 2013, could there be a significant re-launch of WRC in time for 2014, with R5T as the top class?

No, I don't think so.


Would be perfect, as long as the ragulations are kept so simple the cars will still be in the 100-150 000€ range. If not this exercise will be a complete waste!

It will end up on nearly same prices like with S2000 in my opinion...

[TyPat107]

Is that a significant date? I am told ALL WRC events are only being offered a one year deal for the calendar - 2013, could there be a significant re-launch of WRC in time for 2014, with R5T as the top class?

I don't think VW would go for that after all of this development work For the current rules.

[Arganil]

Is there a future for R5?

R5 was a good idea to allow amateurs to get new 4wd cars at a reasonable price but with the introduction of S2000 1.6T cars (RCC) in national or regional championships the concept is under threath.

From the past experiences of new categories cost control (remember S2000) the 150m€ price target is difficult to achieve, probably cars would cost near 200m€. At this price and knowing that R5 cars are less competitive than RRC, how many drivers would invest that kind of money with so little changes to win overall?

Probably teams and drivers with budget to run nowadays highly cost S2000NA cars will more easily evolve to RRC cars, so the remaining R5 purpose would be the replacement of N4 cars, but how many manus are interested in developing a 4wd amateurs car? Especially when the development process of a RRC would cost nearly the same?

Toyota has already answer these questions, developing the Yaris under RRC regs. Lets see how many more manus will follow this direction.

[Mirek]

R5 came after S2000 1.6T (or RRC) as their replacement not before. What is under threat is RRC not R5. What is highly expensive now is RRC not S2000 2.0NA. Those are not cheap but still are much cheaper than RRC (at least what I know about Fabia, Peugeot and Mini).

Than how did You come to the point that R5 will be slower than RRC? R5 will be at least on par (I bet they will be faster). Simply because they must be fast enough to have sense for manufacturers. There are talks about 3-5 cars already under development (Peugeot 208, Škoda Fabia, Ford Fiesta are sure). These cars are going to play the main role at least in the IRC where they can't loose with old 2.0NA cars. Works teams would not go into a suicidal action resulting they would look like a bunch of clowns beaten by amateurs in old cars.

Let's take it like this. The suspension and drivetrain will be virtually same with current S2000/RRC/WRC cars with the exception of five-speed gearbox. There is not much simpler to invent. What will be very different is the engine. Very expensive DI engine of RRC cars will be replaced by much simpler unit (I expect something like R3T engine). The funny thing is that the expensive engine of RRC cars is rather weak due to the small restrictor and since the R5 are supposed to have 2 mm larger they will be more powerful even with much simpler and cheaper unit.

[Arganil]

R5 was intended to replace S2000NA cars at a fraction of their price. The problem is that S2000T (RRC) came in the middle of the process and now R5 costs will rise in order to match RRC speed.

That has nothing to do with “poor man S2000” original concept and it’s a missed opportunity to make national and regional series affordable.

[Sulland]

R5 was intended to replace S2000NA cars at a fraction of the cost. (....)
It is a missed opportunity to make national and regional series affordable.

In my opinion the above is the essense.

Thinking twice about this news that MJW came with for 2014, I am starting to get cold feet.
If R5 will take over for WRCars as well, the cost will by default explode. And we will be back to the original issue, cost.

So better to keep the WRCars as is and keep R5 as a cheaper national/regional top class, as well as the new PWRCar.

[Arganil]

So better to keep the WRCars as is and keep R5 as a cheaper national/regional top class, as well as the new PWRCar.

Totally agree.

WRC in their S2000T form should be ban from FIA regional championships and national sanctioned series. This way R5 could be developed as a contained budget top class, with costs closer to N4/R4.

The sport needs a new national/regional affordable 4wd category. Top level S2000 cars (T and even the latest NA models) are too expensive in todays economical situation. N4/R4 are “close to extinction species” and to found national series on 2wd machinery (like the brits did) doesn’t suit the fans.

[Mirek]

R5 was intended to replace S2000NA cars at a fraction of their price. The problem is that S2000T (RRC) came in the middle of the process and now R5 costs will rise in order to match RRC speed.

No, the R5 came in time when the RRC already existed. Anyway RRC are not generally faster than 2.0NA S2000 (in some cases RRC is faster, in other S2000 is faster). There is therefore nothing new in the need for R5 to be competitive against the S2000.

As I said there isn't much to invent in suspension and drivetrain schema already used now. What can be easily replaced by much cheaper equivalent is the RRC engine and that's really easy. Just a play with restrictor size.

[Sulland]

Is that a significant date? I am told ALL WRC events are only being offered a one year deal for the calendar - 2013, could there be a significant re-launch of WRC in time for 2014, with R5T as the top class?



Is this info from a trustworthy source MJW, or just rumours?

[Arganil]

WRC 1.6T rules were only introduced in 2011. They were intended to attract new manu(facturer)s to wrc and technical stability is essential to bring and keep manus involved.

VW commitment is for at least 3 years and Toyota has a history of long term involvement, so there's a fair chance that WRC 1.6T will stand in top for a long time (2.0TWRC were there for 14 years).

The delay from FIA decision over R5 it's maybe linked with lack of interest from manus. If R5 cars are now intended to match RRC pace they'll not be cheap. With the same speed and almost the same price of RRC, why bother to create this new category?

And there's also the bigger picture: with FIA really committed to wrc, as it now seems, will there be another chance for other international series to threat the world rally championship prominence, as IRC did a few years ago?

Perhaps not. FIA will probably try to centre manus interest over actual wrc cars (WRC and RRC derivates), avoiding to create a new "manus friedly" 2nd level type of cars, equivalent to the successful S2000NA concept.

[Mirek]

wrc 1.6t rules were only introduced in 2011. They were intended to attract new manu(facturer)s to wrc and technical stability is essential to bring and keep manus involved.

No, in 2011 we had first season with ready cars but the rules were known long before.


The delay from fia decision over r5 it's maybe linked with lack of interest from manus. If r5 cars are now intended to match rrc pace they'll not be cheap. With the same speed and almost the same price of rrc, why bother to create this new category?

There is no lack of interest. At least three cars are sure in development now (rumors about five). I also don't know about delays from FIA side (maybe they are) but about delays from side of manufacturers. The price sure won't be same as in RRC case. Maybe it will be same or close to current S2000 but sure not to RRC. Running cost of Mini RRC is at least double compared to Peugeot or Fabia S2000!


And there's also the bigger picture: With fia really committed to wrc, as it now seems, will there be another chance for other international series to threat the world rally championship prominence, as irc did a few years ago?

IRC is going to merge with ERC and therefore become an FIA championship.

[A FONDO]

The delay from FIA decision over R5 it's maybe linked with lack of interest from manus. If R5 cars are now intended to match RRC pace they'll not be cheap. With the same speed and almost the same price of RRC, why bother to create this new category?
I think R5 would and should be between current S2000 and R4 in both aspects of power and maintenance cost. RRC remains for rich tourists only.

[Arganil]

Running cost of Mini RRC is at least double compared to Peugeot or Fabia S2000!


Are you sure? Double is 100% more!

[Ucci]

The figures are correct... Running cost of RRC is (of course) same as WRC car... ;) From the numbers I heard the running cost of RRC is more than 2x as much as a TOP-S2000 car. Very sad when knowing that on most of the events the RRC will be slower...

Judging on Basso's results your statement is totaly wrong.....

[Sulland]

In a Micky Mouse type terrain and course, with a lot of stops and starts, the turbo with its torque will help the RRCs. But in a more flowing type of course, the S2000 have been quicker so far.

[Mirek]

Judging on Basso's results your statement is totaly wrong.....

You know how it's called to take two samples of dozens and make a statement based on those two?

[Arganil]

The figures are correct... Running cost of RRC is (of course) same as WRC car... ;) From the numbers I heard the running cost of RRC is more than 2x as much as a TOP-S2000 car

Sometimes what we heard it isn't necessarily true...
From public released data (like the MSport site) an RRC car price is 25% higher than a full options S2000 car.
Maintenance and parts costs are very similar on components like transmission, suspension, brakes, steering and bodyshell. Only engine rebuild costs are considerable higher on RRC versions, because of the different engine specs (T+Di).
Even so, there's no way that the running budget of an RRC could be over 100% more than an S2000. It's probably under 50% more.
Check it out:
S2000 Sales Document (http://fiestas2000.com/index.php/component/remository/func-startdown/57/)
RRC Sales Document (http://www.fiestarrc.com/index.php/component/remository/func-startdown/57/)

[skarderud]

The expensive problem in rally is not the part prices, but the manu's will to earnmaximum amount of money. It's only the manu's that can build and construkt a car, and they know the x-button on the calculator....
when you have to buy a car, and all the parts from 1 guy, and he is gready like h..l, there we have the biggest problem in sport. It should been posible to smaller teams to build a car with homologated parts ( 2-3 different options on front/rearaxle, gearbox, centetdiff, dampers and so on), in whatever chassis. Then more involvment from different manu's will follow, when you don't need 200 million euro's to start a campaign.
Of course the testing and development costs, but this should be the recipe for a cheaper pwrc/swrcish/national class. R4t/R5.

[Mirek]

Sometimes what we heard it isn't necessarily true...
From public released data (like the MSport site) an RRC car price is 25% higher than a full options S2000 car.
Maintenance and parts costs are very similar on components like transmission, suspension, brakes, steering and bodyshell. Only engine rebuild costs are considerable higher on RRC versions, because of the different engine specs (T+Di).
Even so, there's no way that the running budget of an RRC could be over 100% more than an S2000. It's probably under 50% more.
Check it out:
S2000 Sales Document (http://fiestas2000.com/index.php/component/remository/func-startdown/57/)
RRC Sales Document (http://www.fiestarrc.com/index.php/component/remository/func-startdown/57/)

That's theory. Ask teams running those cars how much is their average cost per kilometer.

[A FONDO]

Snijers :laugh:
Pech :laugh:

maybe you would also like to add Tlustak and Al- Kuwari :laugh:

[prpr]

Is there any news of an R4 version of the Megane RS N4 from Renault Sport?

[Mirek]

Is there any news of an R4 version of the Megane RS N4 from Renault Sport?

Currently R4 rules allow only 4WD cars.

R4T what is discussed in this thread is now newly called R5 and is entirely different class.

[A FONDO]

No no, Snijers and Pech are competitive and have achieved something in their careers (unlike Tlustak and Al-Kuwari)... If you watch the results of Pech in his Evo IX and compare it with what he is doing now... Also Snijers did better with S2000 than with the Mini now... ;)

Maybe 'coz they are hobby drivers and they dont know how to set and drive these cars and theres nobody in their teams to help them. Anyway, 1,6t is only 1 year old, s2000 has been developed for about 10, even if we agree they are quite equal at the moment, after 2-3 years there will be a stunning difference.

[A FONDO]

You are weird.

[Brother John]

Love what you write here about Patrick Snijers in your post , tommeke_B. http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/icons/icon14.png ;)

Yes someone here must surely learn his lesson before he call someone a "hobby-driver who doesn't know what he's doing" instead of always to write nonsensical short post here.



Even at the age of 54 Snijers is not a hobby driver at all. He made his living with rally for many many years (and except for rallying he's still doing nothing else). He has two engineers, Fabio Lazzerini from R-Tec (this is a true suspension-specialist), and a prodrive-engineer. They have prodrive-support and their data is used for the development of the car. Patrick did several tests before the events, testing springs and dampers. With 38 years of experience on a high level I think his data has some value... He was helping Prodrive to develop their BMW M3 some 25 years ago by the way. ;) He has been driving almost everything there is to drive (from Kadett GT/E to S2000's and Mini WRC). Yes, he's an old guy already, and maybe he lost the last little bit what it takes to win on a high level. But he has been driving for so many years, and never stopped driving, he's really living for his sport and wants to be as fast as possible and he's only happy with a good result... To give you a small idea about how fast he still is. In 2009 he drove a rally with a Citroën C2 Max, just as Loix... Both were driving an equal car from the same team. The only difference was that Loix had a 3 hour test the day before (Snijers not). After the first loop of 3 stages Loix was 2s faster than Snijers. After the second loop, so after 6 stages, they were equal, within the same tenth of a second. Then the event was stopped because of a fatal accident...

So please learn your lesson before you call someone a "hobby-driver who doesn't know what he's doing."

[A FONDO]

Hobby driver is the one that doesnt drive for at least semi-factory preparator team. He may have spent all his life in his family garage with EX-employees and showed good results in local events but he can never understand, set and drive this car at full performance, like Sordo with Drive-pro or Basso in Mille with 3 M-sport engineers.

[OldF]

Provisional group5 regulations has been published 20.7.2012.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/9974A7AA054F1E88C1257A400055BFA5/$FILE/PROVISIONAL-261%20(2013)-(15.06.2012).pdf

I started to wonder if the rear suspension is going to be original (front and rear axle suspension). I couldn’t find any mention of modification of the rear ala S2000 & WRC. If the car has a torsion beam rear suspension, is there room for the prop shaft? Some modification must probably also be made to the body shell to make room for the rear diff.

Summary of homologations allowed as VR5 homologations:

Min weight 1200 kg

Engine:
Engine & gearbox mountings
Turbocharger
Turbo speed sensor
The maximum boost pressure will be 2,5 bar * *subject to additional tests
Supercharging air exchanger: Original or homologated in VR5
Maximum ratio: 10,5:1
Pistons
Connecting rods
Crankshaft
Engine flywheel
Cylinder head
ECU
Data recording system
The cam lift must be homologated in VR5, max 11 mm
Tappets / Rocker arms
Intake manifold
Intake valves
The throttle unit
Exhaust valves
Exhaust manifold
Exhaust system: The cut out in the rear bumper must be homologated in VR5.
Balancing shafts
Maximum engine revs being limited to 7500 rpm
The water pump
The radiator
The oil sump
The oil pump

FUEL CIRCUIT:
The fuel tank
The location of the fuel tank

ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT:
The battery must be situated behind the driver or codriver seats (the new location of the battery must be homologated in VR5)
The alternator / starter
The starter motor is free and his position must be homologated in VR5
Diurnal lights (daytime lights) may be replaced with the substitute part homologated in VR5

TRANSMISSION:
Clutch mechanism
Clutch control
The gearbox
The gearbox control (sequential linkage)
Gearbox lubrication device and oil cooling system
Final drive
Mechanical type limited slip differential
Transverse and longitudinal transmission shafts

FRONT AND REAR AXLES-SUSPENSIONS:
All the suspension parts
a) Linkages
b) Reinforcement bars may be fitted on the suspension mounting points to the bodyshell or
chassis of the same axle, on each side of the car’s longitudinal axis
b) The reinforcement of anchorage points with additional material is authorised
Upper suspension points
The anti-roll bars, together with their anchorage points
Only shock absorbers and McPherson strut assembly homologated in the VR5 Variant may be used.

RUNNING GEAR:
Only the brake discs, callipers, handbrake and pedals homologated in the VR5 variant may be used
Master cylinders
If the anti-lock braking system (ABS) is disconnected or removed, the use of one or more
mechanical rear braking distributor(s) homologated by the manufacturer in the VR5 Variant is authorised.
Steering mechanism (housing and rack
Steering rods
Steering column

BODYWORK – BODYSHELL:
Additional openings on the engine bonnet must be homologated
The maximum width of the VR5 car is 1820 mm.
Seats:
- The harness fixings must be those homologated in VO/VR5 by the FIA
- Seat support and anchorages
The dashboard hump(s) may be modified but the modification must be homologated in VR5
The air conditioning compressor may be removed. The modification must be homologated in
VR5.
The safety foam and door panels homologated in VR5 must be used.
Sunroof / Roof hatch: original or homologated in VR5.
Windscreen: only series windscreens and windscreens homologated in VO/VR5 may be used

[Mirek]

In my opinion there will be similar suspension layout like in the S2000 with 4x McPherson no matter what is on stock car.

[Sulland]

To the tech specialists here: Does the R5 regs look ok, or are there things you would like changed - and if so why?

[Mirek]

I don't feel like an specialist but I would hardly call it regulations. It's more a draft which doesn't say much.

[OldF]

And only five months to the beginning of 2013.

[dimviii]

imho it seems to be very expensive.

[Mirek]

And only five months to the beginning of 2013.

Manufacturers sure know more than us. They started working months a go...

[HaCo]

More than the old S2000? Or even more than current S16T? If not and fast enough: good chance of succes. Look at current R3T, they sell very well.

Verstuurd van mijn ARCHOS 80G9 met Tapatalk

[Gordini]

Please can modeerateur change title to R5 news, now FIA has made up their mind?

thank you.

[Gordini]

Please help
Who in here can rename title of thread from R4T to R5 news?
moderateur or administrateur has the rights to do,this?

[pino]

Thread title changed :)

[Gordini]

Thank you! 😁

[Sulland]

How far is Peugeot and the others on their R5 projects ?

[aykutbilir]

How far is Peugeot and the others on their R5 projects ?

As i know Peugeot is the only brand working on R5 recently.
Skoda wait for the new Fabia release.
And Ford actually no idea if they go on with a Fiesta R5 right now.

[Mirek]

All three have been working on R5 cars for months.

[Sulland]

But if all three have buildt cars and have been testing, where are the pictures and films?
Skoda had a perfect way of doing it when they developed the S2000 car a few years back?
Have anyone seen the new cars or pictures of them or is all a secret?

[Francis44]

The first "prototype" of Peugeot was scheduled to be shown this month, however with all the delays I dont think we will see it for awhile.

[Tom206wrc]

Maybe at the press days of the Mondial de l'Auto in Paris :confused:

[Mirek]

But if all three have buildt cars and have been testing, where are the pictures and films?
Skoda had a perfect way of doing it when they developed the S2000 car a few years back?
Have anyone seen the new cars or pictures of them or is all a secret?

I haven't said they already built a car (maybe they did but I don't know). I said they have been working on development for several months (I'm pretty sure about that). Anyway it is possible to keep tests secret till some phase when You need to start changing a lot of testing locations.

[Tom206wrc]

First teaser(and first press release) of the future 208 R5 on Peugeot Sport | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/peugeot-sport) :cool:
Can't wait for the 27th september now :bounce:

[cali]

First teaser(and first press release) of the future 208 R5 on Peugeot Sport | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/peugeot-sport) :cool:
Can't wait for the 27th september now :bounce:
If this new R5 208 will be anything shown in this link, it will be very cool looking car :)

[Adler]

some more details here

www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/int/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2012/09/12/peugeot-lueftet-den-r5-schleier/index.html - Translator (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=de&to=en&a=http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/int/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2012/09/12/peugeot-lueftet-den-r5-schleier/index.html)

[TyPat107]

If this new R5 208 will be anything shown in this link, it will be very cool looking car :)

Does that look like a silhouette of a DS3? Same chasis? (forgive me I am going off of pictures and my visit to Rally San Remo last year, we have neither Citroen or Peugeot here in the states)

[OldF]

From R-Classes News.


Peugeot R5 to be unveiled in Paris

iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00001867)

No we have just to wait and see what’s coming.


Peugeot Sport Press Release (EN) http://peugeot-media.com/index.php?nav=771&action=view&communique_id=236&langue=en&download=en/20120912_208_type_r5_en.pdf

Think that if they do allow R5 cars have more power, I imagine it will be to make up for not have a sixth gear & even it up somewhat between R5 & RRC

This is the drawback to have two similar threads in two different sub forums (European & WRC). I’ve should have post on the R5 News instead of R-Classes News but at that time I didn’t remember that a R5 News thread exists.

[darkstar]

If this new R5 208 will be anything shown in this link, it will be very cool looking car :)

defenetly! very nice :)

[dimviii]

3000kms must be about engine which is feasible.

[OldF]

@Dimviii

How many km is it for a N4 between engine rebuilding?

[dimviii]

@Dimviii

How many km is it for a N4 between engine rebuilding?
You can do a whole year + tests without rebuild easily(1500-2000km).We are talking about a normal motor as the evo you can buy from Mitsubishi except some studs.Its possible to run for more kms,but inspection will save money from an possible failure.

[OldF]

Thanks Dimviii.

[kober]

So, with the news/rumours about 208, Fabia and Yaris, we're up to three projects. Is anybody else working on R5?

[cali]

So, with the news/rumours about 208, Fabia and Yaris, we're up to three projects. Is anybody else working on R5?
Here's one example, not confirmed thou ... http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/139377-toyota-announces-wrc-plans-6.html#post1064950

[stefanvv]

Here's one example, not confirmed thou ... http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/139377-toyota-announces-wrc-plans-6.html#post1064950

That would be Yaris from the three above. I don't know for anyone else though... May be VW in Russia :confused:

[Mirek]

AFAIK M-Sport is working on R5 too. Most likely these cars will have big sales like the S2000 so in some way it's a must for the manufacturers. Don't worry.

[Sulland]

News from the man responsible in FIA for R5 development in this weeks GPWeek
http://mag.gpweek.com/?startpage=35&iid=68123

The bigges news for me was that DI can be used. I thought it was to be normal injection, to save cost.
Other issues to save cost, simple standard 5 speed gearbox, and simple 4wd system. Same with suspension, only McPhearson and interchangable front/rear, smart.

Lets see what the real price will end up with in the end!

[Mirek]

The link doesn't work...

In my opinion direct injection can be used only in case the stock engine has it. In that case it is easier to keep stock solution. For example PSA/BMW EP6 CDT is DI engine.

[Sulland]

Junior teams or cars from the works team is a very good idea. It works i racing, so why not in rally?

[prpr]

The article in GP Week: GP Week : Issue 167, Page 1 (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=35) .

Intriguingly, it claims that Citroen is planning an R5 car (which would obviously be in competition with the Peugeot 208 R5). It is reported elsewhere in the issue that Citroen is applying to the FIA to build an 'S2000' (R5?) specification DS3 at the behest of Nasser Al-Attiyah, so that he can drive it in the Middle East Rally Championship.

[Mirek]

DS3 S2000 was homologated already on 1st Janury 2011. It is not possible to homologate WRC Kit without homologation of S2000 car. WRC Kit is only an extension of S2000 homologation and can't exist alone. Nasser was entered to Rally Lebanon with DS3 S2000 but in the end he didn't start officially due to safety issues (Qatar government asked its citizens not to travel to Lebanon).

Yves Matton already some time a go claimed they would build both 208 and DS3 in R5 spec. with DS3 coming later. There are strong rumors about Citroën leaving WRC after Loebs retirement being replaced by Peugeot. Just a swap of playgrounds for PSA brands.

[dupanton]

I just hope R5 will really be much cheaper, that is what rallying really need! If not, it's useless. Every time they create a new category it brings new costs (development etc), so the cars become more expensive. It's time to keep the regulations stable for a few years, so manufactures don't have to start all over again every 2 years...

[Sulland]

FIA has set the max price for R5 to 180 000€.
Peugeot Sport Teases New 208 Type R5 Racer with 280HP Prior to Paris Motor Show - Carscoop (http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2012/09/peugeot-sport-teases-new-208-type-r5.html)

Looking in retrospect, the 268 000€ pricecap on S2000NA from 2006/07 has been kept pretty well, all considered. Lets hope production numbers on R5 will make sure the same thing happen here!

180 000€ is still a lot of money, and the first number we heard for R5 was as far as I remember was 100 k €, so it has risen a lot during the planning phase....

[Sulland]

Lets hope the regs stay for at least 5 years with smaller adjustments!

But with 400NM from 2500 rpm, S2000NA and R3 will still be my favorites seen from a pure sound perspective !! :p

[Mirek]

It's time to keep the regulations stable for a few years, so manufactures don't have to start all over again every 2 years...

Every problem actually has two point of view. A sport in which manufacturers are engaged (almost any kind of motorsport - rallying completely as homologations are required) needs a restart from time to time. Every period has basically same story - first few manufacturers testing new rules, after more others joining the competition, later first unsuccessful starting to fade away and in the end only two or three most successful contenders stay which means the proper competition is ruined. No new manufacturers join because they can't afford spending several years learning how to catch those established best ones without much chance for early success. For that reason from time to time new regulations are a must. They partly equalize the conditions and give a chance to newcomers to successfully join the party.

[EightGear]

M-Sport building new R5 Fiesta - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102681)

[OldF]

The bigges news for me was that DI can be used. I thought it was to be normal injection, to save cost.

Well, I believe a manufacturer that doesn’t have a DI engine today are developing or are going to develop a DI engine. Going green today is the trend, the same power with less fuel consumption, less pollution.

The “world engine” is not allowed and I don’t think any manufacturer is going to develop a DI engine just for the purpose to homologate a R5 car. All the new DI engines will emerge the natural way.

With a same size restrictor (same amount of air) for a DI engine and for example a MPI engine, I believe the DI engine has an advantage because the efficiency is better for a DI engine. More power & torque with the same fuel (air) consumption.

I don’t know if I’m right about this but if I’m, using a MPI engine should be compensated in some way (bigger restrictor?).



Other issues to save cost, simple standard 5 speed gearbox, and simple 4wd system. Same with suspension, only McPhearson and interchangable front/rear, smart.

And also a simpler LSD. Make things simpler and save costs.

[bf1_IRL]

Draft Regs here: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/6251900F33FD5120C1257A400054ECBD/$FILE/PROVISIONAL-261%20%282013%29-%2815.06.2012%29.pdf

[Mirek]

It's strange that there are always two sets of rules for same car. These general ones and than more specific homologation regulations which usually aren't officially presented on FIA website...

[Arganil]

FIA has set the max price for R5 to 180 000€.

Looking in retrospect, the 268 000€ pricecap on S2000NA from 2006/07 has been kept pretty well, all considered. Lets hope production numbers on R5 will make sure the same thing happen here!

180 000€ is still a lot of money, and the first number we heard for R5 was as far as I remember was 100 k €, so it has risen a lot during the planning phase....


Max price for S2000 settled by FIA was of 168.000€, not 268.000€ like you mention.

On initial proposals it was intended to be 150.000€, but it has raised to 168.000€, with an tolerance of 15%. Obviously no manu respect it (even if they annouced it), so top spec S2000N/A prices came close, or above, 300.000€.

italiaspeed.com (http://www.italiaspeed.com/2006/motorsport/rally/italy/01_ciocco/preview/1603.html)

Gatt: S2000 is affordable : Rallye-Info.com (http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=5893)

RED Motorsport Ltd - World Rally Team (http://www.redworldrallyteam.co.uk/redworldrally/index6e3e.html?SectionID=13&SubSectionID=27&SectionName=Sales) Brochure Download

http://fiestas2000.com/index.php/component/remository/func-startdown/57/

At the same way, the 180.000€ target price for R5 will be totally over passed, and this type of cars, even if less expensive than S2000 to mantain, will only be accesible to proteams. Amateurs will have to stay with aging N4 material or change to 2wd...

[Sulland]

It's strange that there are always two sets of rules for same car. These general ones and than more specific homologation regulations which usually aren't officially presented on FIA website...

Transperancy is 'important' to FIA it seems, if what you say is correct. What do they have to loose by being open on tech regs?

[Mirek]

I don't think it's a secret but it's just not published on FIA website. So what we know from these general rules is just A (for example that some part must be either stock or homologated) but there is not the B (what does it actually mean that it can be homologated).

[Mirek]

Max price for S2000 settled by FIA was of 168.000€, not 268.000€ like you mention.

On initial proposals it was intended to be 150.000€, but it has raised to 168.000€, with an tolerance of 15%. Obviously no manu respect it (even if they annouced it), so top spec S2000N/A prices came close, or above, 300.000€.

italiaspeed.com (http://www.italiaspeed.com/2006/motorsport/rally/italy/01_ciocco/preview/1603.html)

Gatt: S2000 is affordable : Rallye-Info.com (http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=5893)

RED Motorsport Ltd - World Rally Team (http://www.redworldrallyteam.co.uk/redworldrally/index6e3e.html?SectionID=13&SubSectionID=27&SectionName=Sales) Brochure Download

S2000 Sales Document (http://fiestas2000.com/index.php/component/remository/func-startdown/57/)

At the same way, the 180.000€ target price for R5 will be totally over passed, and this type of cars, even if less expensive than S2000 to mantain, will only be accesible to proteams. Amateurs will have to stay with aging N4 material or change to 2wd...

If I'm not mistaken those 168.000 was original limit for kit not for complete car (I don't know if some other manufacturer besides Peugeot sold the car as kit). But of course we don't know if the new limit is for complete car or also for just a kit.

[Arganil]

The problem now is that classes/cars are overlaying each other too much now, I think (RRC, S2000, R4, R5), but I think time will solve this "problem", especially if R5 is cheaper and faster. The most important factor is the price, and I think FIA is doing a good job with limiting several things (like described in regulations). It's important that there are affordable and proper competition cars available for private drivers. Let's hope the IRC can become a championship where also privateers can play some role, at least for a few years (before the gap with factory-teams grows too big)...

At the beginning R5 will probably be sligthly cheaper and slower than actual S2000, but very soon they'll become more expensive and faster, simply because they're factory cars and will be used to dispute an international rally championship (IRC). Peugeot and Skoda won't surely be shy in spending loads of money in their R5 cars permanent development, so, sadly, there's no way private drivers will have a chance in this arms race.

[Plan9]

It seems that costs for internaitonal rallying are more prohibitive than ever. s2000 is nearly as expenseive as a WRC.

[Mirek]

No, it isn't. The difference in running costs is big, at least from what people running such cars told me (if we speak about 2 litre NA S2000 against WRC).

[Mirek]

At the beginning R5 will probably be sligthly cheaper and slower than actual S2000, but very soon they'll become more expensive and faster, simply because they're factory cars and will be used to dispute an international rally championship (IRC). Peugeot and Skoda won't surely be shy in spending loads of money in their R5 cars permanent development, so, sadly, there's no way private drivers will have a chance in this arms race.

Quite likely there is neither works Škoda nor Peugeot next year in the IRC so let's see what the championship can look like without factories directly involved...

[Sulland]

Max price for S2000 settled by FIA was of 168.000€, not 268.000€ like you mention.
.

Of course, my mistake! And that was for just asfalt kit.

[Mirek]

From idnes.cz

http://oidnes.cz/12/093/org/FDV462139_DSC06261.JPG

[makinen_fan]

Beautiful color scheme! Hope they keep it

[Mirek]

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/536126_525906037435895_1998833204_n.jpg

[EightGear]

http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads6/506333c5b9000/506333c5b41e1-Fiesta_R5.jpg

[TheFlyingTuga]

EightGear, I think that is a photoshop of RRC plus new front! But looks aggressive and pretty indeed!!!

Hopefuly Toyota is next showing a little bit of what the Yaris could be :)

[Tom206wrc]

Next one is Peugeot-Sport to show the 208 R5 tomorrow thursday :p :

[Tom206wrc]

From idnes.cz

http://oidnes.cz/12/093/org/FDV462139_DSC06261.JPG


:bounce:

[TyPat107]

Isn't there pics of the pug r5 in the other r class news thread already?

[bluuford]

:bounce:
Lion shaped lights are just awsome piece of art!

[Donalduck]

What is the biggest difference between WRC/S2000 and R5???

[Mirek]

The most important shall be the maintenance cost. Peugeot claims the rebuild cycles will be 3000-5000 stage kilometers. Otherwise it shall be simpler construction of engine (using bigger restrictor instead), only five-speed gearbox or interchangeable front/rear suspension.

[Donalduck]

Thanks Mirek.

[Sulland]

Love the looks of the 208 in R5 version, hopefully the speed match!

[pucky54]

Love the looks of the 208 in R5 version, hopefully the speed match!

Did Peugeot ever built a slow car? ;)

[Plan9]

I want to see the R5 208 in Peugeot UK Meeke colours

[Salist]

Peugeot 208 Type R5 - Exclusive photos:
rallysport.hu - Peugeot 208 Type R5 (http://rallysport.hu/images/2012/photo/egyeb/26_peugeot_208_r5/01/index.htm)

[Mirek]

The whale wasn't a succes. Also their 207 R3 is the slowest car in their class, but that's on purpose. The 206 S1600 wasn't really the best car in the class also, or am I wrong? :)

The whale actually wasn't slow at all as proved by Henning, Garde or Galli in 2006. The problem of Peugeot Sport in 2005 was more likely in using Pirelli tyres.

[Mirek]

Peugeot 208 Type R5 - Exclusive photos:
rallysport.hu - Peugeot 208 Type R5 (http://rallysport.hu/images/2012/photo/egyeb/26_peugeot_208_r5/01/index.htm)

I'm in love!

[Leon]

I'm in love!

especially the surrounding cars :)

[Mirek]

For me it's nicer than the rest around. Just from the look ;)

http://rallysport.hu/images/2012/photo/egyeb/26_peugeot_208_r5/01/images/RSHU_Photo_001_jpg.jpg

[Leon]

for me nothing beats 205T16

[makinen_fan]

The colour scheme is the best part of it for me, much better than the silver or red of the 206WRC

[RS]

Quite likely there is neither works Škoda nor Peugeot next year in the IRC so let's see what the championship can look like without factories directly involved...

Exactly. The best years of IRC were when we had Skoda and Peugeot battling one another.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

:bounce:
nice butt....

[dimviii]

The 206 S1600 wasn't really the best car in the class also, or am I wrong? :)

with clio s1600 best duo imho.

[dimviii]

like this 208!!! really impressive from all the angles!

[kober]

Looking forward to 208 WRC :)

[Allyc85]

The 208 really does look the dogs dangly bits!

I really am looking forward to seeing how these R5 cars perform on the stage as in princible it looks like a very good basis for a WRC car :)

[Mirek]

More photos from autorevue.cz
http://www.autorevue.cz/files/895736534.JPG
http://www.autorevue.cz/files/46121620.JPG

[Mirek]

Stock steering rack?
http://www.autorevue.cz/files/253958636.JPG

[dimviii]

how you know it?

[HaCo]

Maybe because of the plastic cramp surrounding it?

Verstuurd van mijn MT15i met Tapatalk

[Francis44]

From what I've been told, this is an early build. A lot can change during the next months.

[Mirek]

how you know it?

Sorry, I shall use word column, not rack. My bad ;)

[dimviii]

Nice intro for Peugeot 208 r5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QgXLnZFUXo&feature=player_embedded

[OldF]

By GP Week also Renault is planning to develop a R5 car. At the end of the red “box”.

GP Week : Issue 170, Page 1 (http://mag.gpweek.com/?iid=69024#folio=17)

[makinen_fan]

How come the Renault R5 have a paddle shift gearbox? I thought this kind of gearbox system was forbidden after the introduction of the new kind of WRCars after 2011, or is the regulation just for the WRCars?

[Mirek]

Isn't it meant for stock Clio RS?

[makinen_fan]

Oh, you are right. I thought he refer to the R5 version. But am I correct that paddle shift gbox are not allowed for R5? Also can they have steering mounted gear lever as current S2000 cars or they must be mounted on the floor as the WRCars?

[Mirek]

That's not different between S2000 and WRC. You can use both if it is purely mechanical. In Fiesta S2000 it is also mounted on the floor as they don't use cables for having the lever at the steering wheel like in 207 or Fabia. I guess it is same for R5, anything what is purely mechanical can be used.

[mousti]

And with the Mini it's mounted at steering wheel.

[Tom206wrc]

Fantastic news for our friends from Portugal: Bruno Magalhaes seems to aim driving the 208 R5 in 2013 !!! :)


Edit: a computer pic :cool: http://www.behance.net/gallery/Auto-Illustrations/5415129

[bf1_IRL]

That would be nice Tom, that livery suits it :)

[TheFlyingTuga]

That's just a study made by a Portuguese designer! Nothing serious... Bruno it's currently stopped, and for what I heard Peugeot Portugal is more interested in bringing the 208 R2 and made a Cup out of it!

[HaCo]

I just hope the rumours about Renault are true. It's been long since we've seen them at the top of national championships and this could create some great opportunities for a driver like Kris Princen.

Verstuurd van mijn MT15i met Tapatalk

[Sulland]

Will we see more R5s in 2013 than the 208, or are the rest planned for homologation in 14 ?

[lancisti]

Ford Fiesta R5 and Citroen DS3 R5

[EightGear]

M-Sport may run an R5 Fiesta in ERC in 2013.

[A FONDO]

M-Sport may run an R5 Fiesta in ERC in 2013.

Sounds great but did you read something about the driver, will he have real M-Sport technical support or they will just sell the car to people like Slowov, Oleksowich etc?

[stefanvv]

Sounds great but did you read something about the driver, will he have real M-Sport technical support or they will just sell the car to people like Slowov, Oleksowich etc?

It depends of their WRC campaign probably. If they quit WRC, might compete in ERC with factory team. I don't think they'll do both.

[rallye-vid]

Probably selling the cars with some technical support, as the news says it will be not a works team.

M-Sport plant für die EM*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/int/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2012/10/14/m-sport-plant-fuer-die-em/index.html)

[Mirek]

If they have capable driver like Basso they can win the series. Let's see :)

[HaCo]

Unfortunate news about Ford, but fortunately they committed to the R5 which will come out in march!

Verstuurd van mijn MT15i met Tapatalk

[EightGear]

This is a golden opportunity for the FIA. Make R5 the top class in WRC from 2014!

Ford (weird...), Citroen, Skoda, Subaru, Renault (?)....

[Sulland]

This is a golden opportunity for the FIA. Make R5 the top class in WRC from 2014!

Ford (weird...), Citroen, Skoda, Subaru, Renault (?)....

This might have been the plan from FIA for some time, and they have probably told the manufacturers some time ago. It has been mentioned on the forum some time ago, i will try to find out where.

would imo be perfect for teams and drivers from a money perspective, and might give more people the option to win with the same car in national series, in regional and world series !

[Jack4688`]

I remember seeing that idea floating about on this forum but the argument against it was that if R5 were to become the top class in rallying it would only drive up the cost of R5 cars.

If Citroen, VW etc then had to make cars capable of winning the WRC to R5 regs then either a) those particular cars would be more advanced (within the limits of the regulations) than the cars made by Skoda, Peugeot and M-Sport etc. and there would be no level playing field or b) to compete against Citroen and VW on a regional level the Skoda, Peugeot and Ford would have to be as advanced and therefore as expensive.

Plus the FIA would have to tell Citroen, VW, Hyundai and any other manufacturer that may or may not join the WRC in the near future that their S2000-based WRC cars are now obsolete. Not such an issue for Citroen as they're making an R5 car too but not worth it.

I think the idea makes sense, it's just not practical to put it into action.

[OldF]

There were discussions about prices in the ”R-Classes news” thread and I thought I continue here.

Looking at this Rally Star - For all the latest motorsport news as well as motorsport events - 2004 HOMOLOGATION REGULATIONS FOR SUPER 2000 KIT-VARIANT (RALLIES) (http://www.rallystar.co.za/article/articleview/2605/1/1/) old draft (Word) for S2000 homologation regulations the original intention was indeed to have a 150 000 € price for a complete car.

7.13 (page 11)
“The maximum price of a car that is ready to race (i.e. as presented at the start for rallies on asphalt) must not exceed 150.000 Euros (before taxes).”

Now the kit is 168.000 € (or is it anymore?).

See also article 3, production criteria for homologation.

The minimum production is:
- 1 completely assembled vehicle.
- 9 sets of all the parts relating to the engine and the shell/bodywork, for changing the Group N model considered into the completely assembled vehicle mentioned above.
- 1 set of all the transmission parts for changing from two-wheel drive to four-wheel drive, to modify the Group N model considered into the completely assembled vehicle mentioned above.

- 1 set of all the rear suspension parts for changing the Group N model considered into the completely assembled car mentioned above.

[RICARDO75]

This could be the new Fabia to work on the R5 2013 model

3035

[Mirek]

The attachment doesn't work.

[RICARDO75]

The attachment doesn't work.

:)
3036

[Mirek]

Aha, that picture from Autobild.de :) I think it will look quite similar, yes.

[noel157]

Mirek, have Skoda plans for 2013 in the Czech national championship or taking a year off until R5 time in 2014?

[Mirek]

I have no idea but I think it's still not decided in the moment.

[OldF]

What would be a reasonable price for a R5 car? I wish the price would begin with a 1.

If the rebuild interval for the engine will be 3000 km vs. 1500 km for a Fiesta S2000 with same rebuild costs, the running cost for the engine would be the half for a S2000.

Ford Fiesta S2000 (Ford Fiesta S2000 Sales Document (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/component/remository/func-startdown/43))

Rebuild interval 1500 km
Price £12 940 ~ 16 118 € => 10,75 € / km (Parts £8,740 ~ 10 886 €, Labour £4,200 ~ 5 231 €)

Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 21 500 € / year

R5 (S2000 rebuilding cost)

Rebuild interval 3000 km
Price £12 940 ~ 16 118 € => 5,37 € / km (Parts £8,740 ~ 10 886 €, Labour £4,200 ~ 5 231,45)

Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 10 740 € / year

Btw, the running cost for the Fiesta RRC engine is almost twice compared to the S2000.

Rebuild interval 1600 km
Price £29 976,98 ~ 37 141 € => 23,23 € / km

Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 46 460 € / year


There is of course also other running cost but about them I don’t know anything.

[Mirek]

As I already mentioned I bet the price of R5 car will be cca same like with S2000 car - that is around 250 thousand Euro for complete car. About the engine rebuild cycles I heard it may well be 5000 km.

[stefanvv]

They say (Peugeot probably) 3K - 5K km I think

[OldF]

Yes, they are aiming for durability between 3000 and 5000 km but I took a safe approach and used 3000 km.

Peugeot Sport - RALLYE - news-1022-la-208-type-r5-se-devoile-au-mondial-de-paris-29-09-14-10- (http://www.peugeot-sport.com/en/rallye/news-1022-la-208-type-r5-se-devoile-au-mondial-de-paris-29-09-14-10-.html)

We have serious foundations with this engine as it is the same as that of the RCZ Racing Cup which currently develops 260 horsepower in its endurance version. We are also aiming for a very high level of durability and reliability: with between 3000 and 5000 kilometres (according to the components and conditions), which will also reduce the operating costs."

[OldF]

As I already mentioned I bet the price of R5 car will be cca same like with S2000 car - that is around 250 thousand Euro for complete car. About the engine rebuild cycles I heard it may well be 5000 km.

That’s I’m afraid about that it will be lot more expensive than the 180 000 € price cap suggested by FIA. But, if the manufacturers try to keep the cost level of a R3 / R3T car, the R5 could be more affordable.

Most of the parts of a S2000 car is lot more expensive compared to an equivalent part for a R3 or R3T. Couple of examples:

Front wishbones

Peugeot S2000 5259 € Average 2,83 times more expensive
Citroen R3T 1326 €
Renault Clio R3 1985 €
Skoda Fabia R2 2265 €

Front drive shafts

Peugeot S2000 3738 € Average 3,85 times more expensive
Citroen R3T 881 €
Renault Clio R3 863 €
Skoda Fabia R2 1167 €

I don’t what could justify this huge price difference because looking at the pics below, imo the front wishbones all having similar designs. Those one who knows, please explain.

One thing that could affect the difference is that a manufacturer can’t predict how many S2000 cars (or any else class/group) would be sold and then spreading the development & manufacturing costs of parts of some kind of forecast.

Peugeot S2000
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/PeugeotS2000frontwishbone.jpg



Renault Clio R3

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/RenaultClioR3Maxiwishbone.jpg



Skoda Fabia R2

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/SkodaFabiaR2wishbone.jpg

[tommeke_B]

@ OldF: 180 000 euros is the kit price, that all manufacturers will have. But if you want a ready-to-drive car from the factory, where everything is built, it should cost around 250 000 euros.
Also comparing wishbones, driveshafts etc isn't representative. To begin with, a S2000 is built to have more stress on those parts, they're stronger than parts in R3 and R2 (proof could be the number of retirements you have with Fiesta R2's in the academy).

[OldF]

OK, I don’t know if the suggested price cap of 180 000 € is for a complete car or just the kit. You probably know more. It’s a complete mess from FIA not to define if the suggested price cap is for a kit or a complete car.

The difference of a complete car vs. the kit (250 000 vs. 180 000 = 70 000) would still be huge. Looking at the video (Building the new rally car... | Peugeot 207 S2000 Evo 2012 | Synthos Cersanit Rally Team - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8v0FVPYawE) & Rajd Mille Miglia - nowa rajdówka ju? gotowa! (http://www.cersanitrally.pl/aktualnosci/rally_1000_miglia_-_new_rally_car_is_ready_for_2012_d4956_eng.html)) of assembling the Peugeot S2000 for Solowow, it took 5 days for 5 mechanics to assemble the car. Additionally there was two days of painting. Lets say that if 5 guys were working 10 hours a day for seven days, it would mean total of 350 hours. Divided 70 000 € with 350 hours give a price of 200 € / hour.

Of course there are also some hidden costs like homologation papers, some training of mechanics etc.

Yes, you’re right about the stress but considering the drive shafts I have to disagree. A S2000 has about 250 Nm of torque from the engine and that torque is divided on four wheels. A Citroen DS3 R3T has a torque of 350 Nm with 98-octane fuel divided on only two wheels.

I don’t think a comparison with the Fiesta R2 is essential because the Fiesta R2 is a very basic R2 car. It has homologated drive shafts but not any wishbones. It could be compared to the Citroen C2 R2 base or Renault Twingo R2 base (kit prices for Citroen and Ford is/was about 23 000 € and the Twingo was about 28 000€). That’s why the Fiesta R2 has been the Academy car last year and will be the next year in JWRC.

PS Thanks for the hint for videos of the French gravel championship rallies. Lot of videos there but I’m still searching to find videos of the gravel championship.7

[dimviii]

.
Yes, you’re right about the stress but considering the drive shafts I have to disagree. A S2000 has about 250 Nm of torque from the engine and that torque is divided on four wheels. A Citroen DS3 R3T has a torque of 350 Nm with 98-octane fuel divided on only two wheels.


a 2wd car with 350nm will stress less the shafts than a 4wd car with 250nm.Most of shaft stress is at low speed,and with steering away from center line,most stress when one wheel is on air(something usual at u turns with different height between left-right wheel at any axle)
At these circumstances a 2wd is easy to broke the grip and spin,a 4wd is not so easy to broke the grip,and there comes the big stress.
Of course we have to mention that all shafts are not the same.Other are stronger and other are weaker.
For example at n4 evos shafts can cope(with sensible driver..) with 600nm torque(change once a year),and we are talking about oem ones.

[OldF]

I start feeling that everyone is against my opinion. But what the ****, **** happens.

Thanks dimviii,

If I understood your comment right, a 4WD car only have one wheel in the air (one fourth of the torque) in a hair pin compared to a front wheel car which have the inside of the front wheel very light and therefore more stress is on the outer wheel transferring the torque to the outer wheel.

But what is when going after a hairpin on the throttle? I would imagine all the driving wheels have all the torque and for a two wheel drive car all the torque is on front wheels.

[dimviii]

when you have spin you have less stress,and a 2wd with 200-350nmat 2 wheels is easier to spin than a 4wd

[Hartusvuori]

M-Sport's Ford Fiesta R5 nears completion (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/1295-m-sports-ford-fiesta-r5-nears-completion)

http://www.m-sport.co.uk/images/stories/r5.jpg


With 90 per cent of the Fiesta R5 differing from its RRC and RS WRC counterparts, the latest addition to Ford’s ‘Ladder of Opportunity’ will include a new transmission developed in conjunction with Sadev and a new engine – with a 32mm restrictor – developed in-house by M-Sport’s engineers.

[stefanvv]

M-Sport's Ford Fiesta R5 nears completion (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/1295-m-sports-ford-fiesta-r5-nears-completion)

So M-Sport seem will be ready with R5 before Peugeot I guess? Nothing is said about the engine maintenance milleage interval...

[Mirek]

M-Sport always puts maintenance schedule on the internet so we can sure have a look soon ;)

[OldF]

So M-Sport seem will be ready with R5 before Peugeot I guess? Nothing is said about the engine maintenance milleage interval...

The early bird gets the worm :) . M-Sport should publish more pics of the R5.

[RS]

Looks like a proper rally car. Hope it sounds like one too.

Looking forward to seeing the testing vids.

[TheFlyingTuga]

M-Sport should publish more pics of the R5.

Probably they can't! The car is said to be a version of the ST, and the new front, althought it's known, will be just officialy presented in Detroit 2013! Maybe they will present their rallycross M-Sport contender as well by then :P

[Jack4688`]

Quote from autosport.com article on the Fiesta R5 "...senior figures in the sport are calling for the simpler and more cost-effective R5 regulations to be used as the basis of the World Rally Car post-2015."

Fairly unreliable source though - David Evans of Autosport and Motorsport News often talks utter garbage

[tommeke_B]

I would like to see R5 form the new WRC cars in the future, why not with a bigger restrictor? :) FIA missed a great chance with S2000's some 5 years ago... The current WRC cars are way too expensive for privateers, with running cost being almost 2x what it was 10 years ago (while they are more simplistic now, no water-injection, no electronic diffs etc.)... That together with the long events (Argentina 500kms?) and the current situation in the WRC and the economical situation (big companies hesitate and wait a lot with investments because many things are uncertain now) explains why we have only 10-15 WRC-cars in an event while it was often above 30 some 10 years ago.