Rally2 (ex-R5) News

[Mirek]

No, I know nothing specific. I only suppose that I saw the updated car already during Rally Šumava.

[Andre Oliveira]

Opel Corsa R5 is comming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3W3b_Z8SI0&feature=youtu.be

[Andre Oliveira]

Will be presented in Rally de Portugal assistance park:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_ydcc4XkAAxriW.jpg

[Simmi]

Fantastic news. Sadly don't think I'll be going anywhere near the service park but great to see it launched.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_ym7rcXkAEtCkI?format=jpg&name=large

[macebig]

Interesting to see if the car superseeds the 208 and the C3 R5 or they run in parallel.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Opel R5 will hopefully be the aim for their ERCJunior team champion next season. No point in producing drivers for Škoda or Ford.

[macebig]

Opel R5 will hopefully be the aim for their ERCJunior team champion next season. No point in producing drivers for Škoda or Ford.

Opel is now under PSA control.So, they have an upgrade path already.

[Mirek]

Interesting to see if the car superseeds the 208 and the C3 R5 or they run in parallel.

I'm quite sure that 208 is not the target - logically.

[Rally Power]

Great news, not only the Corsa R5 project exists but it’ll also be presented during RdP! From next week presentation we’ll get to know if it’s an Opel Motorpsort official program or just a Holzer private iniciative (sanctioned by Opel).

[Simmi]

I think it needs to be ascertained how much of a works effort this is. Does it have full factory blessing or is it another Mirage? Is it just a concept or is there actually a testing timeline to get it on the stages?

[Mirek]

I bet it is factory supported project and it has been through some testing already.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Finally after two years first mentioned...

http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?28327-R5-News/page305

[Andre Oliveira]

Proton Iriz R5 chassis 1

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-3dmBAW0AEAJ5O?format=jpg&name=large

[Andre Oliveira]

Opel Corsa R5 trucks, pic of Bob Baker

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_4ayWsW0AIZEM8?format=jpg&name=large

[Rally Power]

Little doubts left; it’s an Opel Motorsport effort. Great! Will they also announce a WRC2 campaign?

[PLuto]

Will they also announce a WRC2 campaign?

I hope not ;)

[Andre Oliveira]

Vauxhall Corsa R5 soon too eheh

[Munkvy]

I hope not ;)

Perhaps an ERC campaign...?

[Mirek]

The team and their drivers have collected a lot of experience with ERC event and it would be logical to start there.

I really hope that the Corsa R5 appears in Barum. Opel is one of the main partners for the event after all.

[Simmi]

Vauxhall Corsa R5 soon too eheh

I hope this entices a Vauxhall UK dealer team back like in the past. Sadly the support for the Adam in the BRC only seemed quite superficial. They were asking for pay drivers this year. So I'm not holding out too much hope.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

As far as Vauxhall is concerned I just hope PSA keep their UK factories open...

[RS]

I really hope that the Corsa R5 appears in Barum. Opel is one of the main partners for the event after all.

As a zero car?

[RICARDO75]

New video from Opel Corsa R5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhkMz_5JfOE&feature=em-uploademail

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wonder why Opel chose to launch in Portugal and at a WRC event ?

[PLuto]

Wonder why Opel chose to launch in Portugal and at a WRC event ?

First proper mainland European WRC event :)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

First proper mainland European WRC event :)

And I suppose bigger publicity than at an ERC rally...

[TheFlyingTuga]

First proper mainland European WRC event :)

It seems that the car it's just a concept by Holzer, and nothing to do with official Opel. Even though the car is in full Opel Motorsport clothing. Damm ze Germans... I cannot understand this communication bit

[br21]

Rear spoiler such high above the roof level? Or it's just how I see it? Also no information about any proper testing program which in my opinion only tells that car is in very early development phase.

[macebig]

Rear spoiler such high above the roof level? Or it's just how I see it? Also no information about any proper testing program which in my opinion only tells that car is in very early development phase.

I think the same.There is a new Opel Corsa model slated for next year, so its not commercially wise to spend major money and time for a car that should be replaced in 6 months time.The car that will be in Portugal is surely a prototype with next gen chassis and current car bodywork.

[RS]

It seems that the car it's just a concept by Holzer, and nothing to do with official Opel. Even though the car is in full Opel Motorsport clothing. Damm ze Germans... I cannot understand this communication bit

Do Holzer build the Adam R2 as well?

Isn't it just like a Prodrive/Subaru MSport/Ford setup?

[Mirek]

Do Holzer build the Adam R2 as well?

Isn't it just like a Prodrive/Subaru MSport/Ford setup?

Afaik yes and yes.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2015 Corsa R5 image
https://ton.twitter.com/1.1/ton/data/dm/864172944158752773/864172932066680833/bZjKSEJy.jpg:large

But my contact says the 2017 car 'looks much better than that !' :)

[Mirek]

The picture is not visible, Eddie.

[Rally Power]

It seems that the car it's just a concept by Holzer, and nothing to do with official Opel. Even though the car is in full Opel Motorsport clothing. Damm ze Germans... I cannot understand this communication bit

Yep, quite a puzzle...Sportmotores has managed to talk to an Opel Motorsport source and it was told this is a project Holzer Motorsport (their R2 partner) has been working on their own and it was now allowed by Opel to be presented, even if there is no confirmation when, and if, it’ll be homologated…

http://sportmotores.com/portal/!site.go?s=1817726727&p=.20055&id=48563

[itix]

So it seems the Opel R5 wasn't just a rumor after all. Let's hope the extra time spent was on developing it properly.
Unless they are just going to show off a concept I wonder how the hell they have managed to develop it away from prying eyes!

[Simmi]

Going back to the Proton Iriz R5.

Interview with Chris Mellors of MEM in Motorsport News today. He sounds quite confident about the car's chances and it does seem like the backing is there from Proton.

- They are looking at a moving debut at the Goodwood Festival of Speed (final day of June)
- Targeted January 1st 2018 homologation date
- Intent to run a factory team in WRC2, and Asia-Pacific. Currently talking to two sponsors.
- Engine is 1600cc version of Mitsubishi Lancer E10 power unit
- Xtrac transmission, Reiger dampers, Brembo brakes, Cosworth electronics
- Available in right and left-hand drive


Let's see how much of it comes true!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The picture is not visible, Eddie.

Just wait till you see the beast in the flesh! 😍 https://t.co/wvshWvbWYY

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DABoL55WsAAhm06.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

More on the Proton R5:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129574/proton-set-for-wrc-return-with-new-r5-car

[BigWorm]

That Proton looks like the crossing of a Polo and a Fiesta gone horribly wrong.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Looking good for me..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[BigWorm]

13351336

[mousti]

For now it's still a concept Holzer has for the moment no support from Opel Factory, hopefully that comes soon..!

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18519451_1341429332602871_7694048152386131905_n.jp g?oh=69fdb782a0a207744a9a5aeb059563e6&oe=59C1E88B

[Mirek]

A new video with the whole car in motion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocRcsGzBRXI

Sadly it's not possible to see anything about the real speed thanks to video effects (for sure intentional). Anyway I like it. Very nice car!

[Mirek]

For now it's still a concept Holzer has for the moment no support from Opel Factory, hopefully that comes soon..!

It's in Opel works colors and presented by Opel Motorsport in WRC service park. That's already quite a lot for claiming no support whatsoever.

[mousti]

It's in Opel works colors and presented by Opel Motorsport in WRC service park. That's already quite a lot for claiming no support whatsoever.

That's what they claiming :p

https://www.fiaerc.com/erc-a-target-for-new-holzer-r5-corsa/

[focus206]

Really like the look of it. Hope it will be developed properly!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Really hope Opel get behind it and give a drive to their Junior champion.

More pics:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAHiWNqU0AAvrQS.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAHiXchU0AMc4Jw.jpg:large

[Jarek Z]

Wow! It does look good! In my opinion better than all other R5 cars on the market.

Opel! Come on, don't hesitate to support this project! :)

[Mirek]

The inside and suspension photos look like of a basically finished car. When I remember how the prototypes of Peugeot (this one mainly) and M-Sport looked when they sent them to Ypres as zero cars...

By the way inside on the rollcage there is Opel Motorsport banner.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/pg/ChicaneMedia/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1565149086830636

https://scontent.fopo2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18485570_1565149273497284_3204529492032732365_n.jp g?oh=443bc2f137db06d0963576381d25de14&oe=59793E96
https://scontent.fopo2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18528066_1565149480163930_4158850330021825359_n.jp g?oh=109d5c6e45aee6af142cf4b4818427ae&oe=5976E535
https://scontent.fopo2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18527767_1565149906830554_8993880601382649226_n.jp g?oh=03042f965b7e02114c30bbd9b6583b25&oe=59798494

[ToughMac]

Looks very similar to the Spencer Sport Mitsubishi Mirage in shape and size.

[macebig]

The sound of the Corsa R5 video, leads me to think that they used the RML WTCC engine.Very, very similar sound to the Cruze.

[Simmi]

I don't know if this is new information or not but Yves Matton is quoted in MN as saying the planned homologation date for the C3 R5 car is Jan 1st 2018. Same day as the Proton for what it's worth.

More news coming in the summer, but Matton very keen to stress it will be a completely new car, with different people working on it to the relatively lacklustre DS3 R5. New technical partners too. He also said they won't run a works team like Skoda.

[Mirek]

It looks like new Proton's strategic partner is not PSA but Geely. According to E15.cz Geely will take 49,9% of Proton in July.

[dimviii]

Gronholm and Sarrazin testing fabia r5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BMZkfBCxfg

[Rally Power]

It looks like new Proton's strategic partner is not PSA but Geely. According to E15.cz Geely will take 49,9% of Proton in July.

Gelly owns Volvo (100%) and now Lotus (51%) and Proton (49,9%) and they’re only the 8th or 9th largest Chinese auto maker…China wealth is mindblowing!
The good news is that they’ve made Volvo return to motorsport (WTCC) and now they can help carrying out Proton/MEM WRC2 project.
Btw, according to the news, PSA refused the deal because they wanted a majority share.

[RS]

Gronholm and Sarrazin testing fabia r5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BMZkfBCxfg

Presumably these two will be VW test drivers for Polo R5.. otherwise weird choice for Skoda.

[RS]

... although both are also Fabia R5 customers.

[BigWorm]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129852/citroen-starting-from-scratch-with-wrc2-car

C3 R5 built from scratch. No official R5 team from Citroën.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129852/citroen-starting-from-scratch-with-wrc2-car



Article also confirms story that Opel say they have no plans to homologate a Corsa R5. :(

[pantealex]

Opel will be Electronic-Car brand for PSA (and DS is their luxury brand)

so most probably only Citroen and Peugeot will have rally models.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

PSA making a C3 R5 also seems to kill the chance of the Corsa R5.

[TWRC]

PSA making a C3 R5 also seems to kill the chance of the Corsa R5.
Also, there will be an R5 from the 2nd generation 208 as well.

[macebig]

Maybe the next gen Corsa (depending on how many parts it shares with the other B category PSA models) can get a R5 version.

[Rally Power]

Maybe the next gen Corsa (depending on how many parts it shares with the other B category PSA models) can get a R5 version.

The next Corsa is being delayed to get a PSA platform. It'll be released only during 2020. This mean Holzer project could still run for 2 to 3 seasons, if it gets green light soon. It'd be a shame to see that promising R5 wasted. http://www.carscoops.com/2017/03/opel-delays-new-corsa-as-psa-shifts-new.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Carscoop+%28CARSCOOPS%29&utm_content=Netvibes

[electroliquid]

In the worst case scenario maybe it could turn into something like Mitsubishi R5 project - only for national use

[Mirek]

That certainly isn't the worst possible scenario.

[electroliquid]

Worse scenarios than this, would be disaster for sport

[dodge33cymru]

Worse scenarios than this, would be disaster for sport
I think he meant that the worst case scenario is that you will never see or hear of the car again and it will fade into obscurity.

As an aside, I find it amusing with the Mitsubishi that they have corporately been willing to licence the R5 car for a few video games to use, but unwilling to let the car be homologated in real life.

[skarderud]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170606/3b0601293e5a73dcd0ce938a40c0c134.jpg


Fiat punto R5?

Sent fra min XP7700 via Tapatalk

[Andre Oliveira]

WRC dream concept

[RS]

Opel will be Electronic-Car brand for PSA

Weird strategy. Surely all brands will gradually be moving towards electric.

[dimviii]

HOLZER Firmengruppe‏*@HOLZERGRUPPE
If a 280bhp #rally beast excites you, wait til you see this! The #Holzer #R5 Concept is ready for its next step

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQbekAcFZD8&feature=youtu.be

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Top Gear tries the Fabia R5:
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/behind-scenes-skodas-bargain-rally-hero?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_content=News&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter

[Sulland]

Has Toyota started on their R5 project yet?
If so, how far are they?

[itix]

So if we do get the corsa and iriz in homologation, we'll have
-DS3/208
-Fiesta
-Corsa(?)
-Iriz(?)
-Fabia
-i20
-Yaris (soon)
-C3 (soon)
-Polo (soon)

and the miserable mirage outside homologation.

When did a rally segment ever have this many manufacturers? R5 is very likely the most successful rally program ever.

[Mirek]

Just before, with S2000...
International homologation: Polo, Punto, 207, Fabia, Fiesta, Corsa, MG ZR, Corolla, Satria
Regional homologation: Fiesta (Aus), Corolla (Aus), Auris (Aus), Auris (RSA), Polo 5D (RSA)
National homologation: Lada 112 (Rus)
S2000 1.6T alias RRC: Mini, Fiesta, DS3

It shall be mentioned that S2000 were forcefully stopped by FIA when they were at their popularity peek (2011). They didn't die from the lack of interest.

[pantealex]

Has Toyota started on their R5 project yet?
If so, how far are they?

Yes they have.
Car is drivable, that´s all I can say.
Just wait one month, Rally Finland´s service park could offer more info.

[RICARDO75]

Just before, with S2000...
International homologation: Polo, Punto, 207, Fabia, Fiesta, Corsa, MG ZR, Corolla, Satria
Regional homologation: Fiesta (Aus), Corolla (Aus), Auris (Aus), Auris (RSA), Polo 5D (RSA)
National homologation: Lada 112 (Rus)
S2000 1.6T alias RRC: Mini, Fiesta, DS3

It shall be mentioned that S2000 were forcefully stopped by FIA when they were at their popularity peek (2011). They didn't die from the lack of interest.

And also the Polo S2000 1.6T (RRC). Never competed, but was tested and homologated.

[itix]

Just before, with S2000...
International homologation: Polo, Punto, 207, Fabia, Fiesta, Corsa, MG ZR, Corolla, Satria
Regional homologation: Fiesta (Aus), Corolla (Aus), Auris (Aus), Auris (RSA), Polo 5D (RSA)
National homologation: Lada 112 (Rus)
S2000 1.6T alias RRC: Mini, Fiesta, DS3

It shall be mentioned that S2000 were forcefully stopped by FIA when they were at their popularity peek (2011). They didn't die from the lack of interest.

True... I forgot about some of those models. In honesty though, glorious as the sound was, reality is moving away from N/A and into forced induction so I kind of understand the FIA decision.

[Rally Power]

New Polo presented (R5 base model). 4.053mm long (2.564mm wheel base). Apparently, no 3dr model expected.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-l3gVu6BzLgI/WUM6CS9BtII/AAAAAAABmLY/XTnY6_zvsGgeXeZzwyEgtY3myrFDXKxAwCLcBGAs/s1600/2017-VW-Polo-2555.jpg

According to some news, C3 R5 development was paused till C3 WRC issues are solved.

Btw, when will MSport make a new R5 based on current Mk7 Fiesta (like the ’17 WRC)?

[Andre Oliveira]

Yes, M-Sport just started R5 2018

[the sniper]

When are we going to hear something official on increasing the restrictor size plus the associated mechanical changes required to handle the increased power? If pretty much all the manufacturers are working on next year now, surely it's too late for the FIA to change the regs now or do they just need to act fast? Or are the manufactures already aware?

[Andre Oliveira]

Motorsportmonday

https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19024979_1764204713608948_1831927331390559468_o.jp g?oh=a66f30b5894c98b0f08fd6c766f4bd17&oe=59D09F93

[dimviii]

new fabia forSRT

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCw_ozCXcAE0acj.jpg

[PLuto]

When are we going to hear something official on increasing the restrictor size plus the associated mechanical changes required to handle the increased power? If pretty much all the manufacturers are working on next year now, surely it's too late for the FIA to change the regs now or do they just need to act fast? Or are the manufactures already aware?

I hope never...

[Mirek]

When are we going to hear something official on increasing the restrictor size plus the associated mechanical changes required to handle the increased power? If pretty much all the manufacturers are working on next year now, surely it's too late for the FIA to change the regs now or do they just need to act fast? Or are the manufactures already aware?

Of course they are aware when something is being prepared. FIA and manufacturers keep in contact all the time. I just hope, just like PLuto, that it stays like it is.

[Jarek Z]

According to The Telegraph, viewers of Goodwood Festival of Speed will see the debut of the Proton Iriz R5:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/goodwood-festival-speed-2017-rally-drift-stars-confirmed/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@tomcave
..and the exciting news is we've entered @RallyFinland driving a @HMSGOfficial #i20 R5, our 1st @OfficialWRC event in the car #cantwait!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

According to The Telegraph, viewers of Goodwood Festival of Speed will see the debut of the Proton Iriz R5:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/goodwood-festival-speed-2017-rally-drift-stars-confirmed/

Proton Iriz R5 ready for Goodwood:

https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19424214_1735427669804767_6828453700190446162_n.jp g?oh=c411e69a299d597e037cea726bbf38d6&oe=59DCEE14

https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19511308_1735427673138100_3081487900415038033_n.jp g?oh=de5e36b1b754f7e95a7ff1ec2145dee0&oe=59CFA4D1

[RS]

Are Proton on board with the R5 project? I.e. is it going to get international homologation?

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Are Proton on board with the R5 project? I.e. is it going to get international homologation?
I hope so..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[Rally Power]

Goodwood live stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEhEbPoDtHo

Schedule: https://www.goodwood.com/flagship-events/festival-of-speed/programme/

[dimviii]

https://scontent.fath4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19260562_10154575941760404_4901828437001068840_n.j pg?oh=c49241c94d2124aba8356b793e040111&oe=59CC4669

[liposh]

It looks like small shopping bag (You know that type of car used by wifes). Why are the dimensions WxLxH so much different to other R5 cars ? Anyway, it is necessary to make official presentations on 18 inch tarmac wheels, this one is bad.

[Rally Power]

It looks like small shopping bag (You know that type of car used by wifes). Why are the dimensions WxLxH so much different to other R5 cars ? Anyway, it is necessary to make official presentations on 18 inch tarmac wheels, this one is bad.

Looks can be deceptive…it’s a B class car like all other R5’s, just a bit higher than usual. http://www.proton-edar.com.my/en/Models/Iriz/Model%20Pricing%20and%20Specification%20Page.aspx# PRICING & SPECS


Are Proton on board with the R5 project? I.e. is it going to get international homologation?

It has been announced as a partnership between Proton and MEM (like the Satria S2000). Proton troubled finances are also recovering, as Geely become a major stockholder, so all indicates this IRIZ R5 will really hit the road. Best luck to them!

[Mirek]

Bit higher than usual means the car has an unsolvable handicap since the beginning.

[itix]

Looks can be deceptive…it’s a B class car like all other R5’s, just a bit higher than usual. http://www.proton-edar.com.my/en/Models/Iriz/Model%20Pricing%20and%20Specification%20Page.aspx# PRICING & SPECS



It has been announced as a partnership between Proton and MEM (like the Satria S2000). Proton troubled finances are also recovering, as Geely become a major stockholder, so all indicates this IRIZ R5 will really hit the road. Best luck to them!
Compared to the S2000 she certainly isn't a looker.

[Rally Power]

Bit higher than usual means the car has an unsolvable handicap since the beginning.

The Fabia S2000 was also a bit higher than competition and it was a winner. This Iriz has a good wheel base and they can stretch it to R5 max width, so being a few more mms tall isn't a drama.

[the sniper]

I saw the Proton Iriz today at Goodwood. If nothing else, it sounds good! Very early days set up wise, but it didn't look overly slow.

I got one clip of it if anyone cares to see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_nZaHe16rU

[Mirek]

The Fabia S2000 was also a bit higher than competition and it was a winner. This Iriz has a good wheel base and they can stretch it to R5 max width, so being a few more mms tall isn't a drama.

Don't get me wrong but I believe that Škoda had a lot more resources than MEM to cope with it. To have a handicap at the start is bigger problem for smaller teams with lower budget. With Satria they actually had an advantage in the size of the bodyshell and even with that they could not make it fully competitive. What I wanted to say is that now they are not in better situation.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Prestone MSA BRC‏ @MSA_BRC
We have had a good look around the striking Proton Iriz built to R5 spec by @mellorselliot @fosgoodwood. Exciting things to come!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDp-Y2sXcAAKFPU.jpg

[Munkvy]

So what are peoples thoughts on the Hyundai R5?

It seems to have been entered in a reasonable number of events, often with perhaps not the fastest drivers and has had pretty average results. Obviously Ypre was a little different, but even then with a top line WRC driver in it, it doesn't appear to have been that much quicker than any of the other R5 cars.

Also from watching the footage of Paddon in France last weekend he certainly was on the limit in places by the looks and yes he did have some issues, but was still comfortably beaten by a WRC2 driver. Yes I know tarmac isn't his preferred surface, but he is a WRC driver which should surely count for a lot given the ability to test/prepare/have the best of everything.

So is the Hyundai a bit of an average car, without that last little bit to be as competitive as the Skoda and Ford?

[Jarek Z]

So what are peoples thoughts on the Hyundai R5?

I think you are right. It seems Hyundai is a reliable car, without many technical issues, but it isn't as fast as Ford or Skoda. As far as I know i20 R5 hasn't won any important international rally. It has to be mentioned though, that there aren't many top drivers who drive this car on a regular basis. Giandomenico Basso is probably the only exception.

But success is still possible in this car. Iván Ares won Rallye de Ferrol on the last weekend in the Spanish rally championship.
Final results:
http://www.autoklub.pl/news/foto/201707/news20170708_77760h.jpg

http://www.autoklub.pl/news/foto/201707/news20170708_77760h.jpg

[Jarek Z]

Marijan Griebel is going to try Hyundai R5 in a few days:
https://www.fiaerc.com/erc-junior-griebel-makes-car-switch-for-warm-up-rally/

[Andre Oliveira]

Neuville debuted new jokers in Ypres, Pernía with same specs in Ferrol.

Afaik, Hyundai is much expensive than Ford, and performance not much better.

[Munkvy]

Neuville debuted new jokers in Ypres, Pernía with same specs in Ferrol.

Afaik, Hyundai is much expensive than Ford, and performance not much better.

This is the bit I struggle with, does anyone know (and is allowed to talk about) the actual cost of the various R5s? I assume the Skoda is more expensive, and the faster car, but the Ford isn't far behind in price or performance?

And from what I have heard the Ford is easier to maintain/get work done on it, whereas Skoda Motorsport need to be involved more in servicing of cars they produce? But of course this is all conjecture based on rumour, so curious if anyone is able to confirm any of it?

But totally agree, the Hyundai doesn't seem to have many top line drivers so far, perhaps struggling to break into the market? Seems that perhaps they need someone good in the car for a decent period of time to prove it's ability?

[Mirek]

Fiesta is reasonably cheaper both to buy and to run than Fabia, also thanks to the low GBP exchange rate after Brexit referendum. Also the customer support from M-Sport is the best You can get among all R5 on the market.

[Jarek Z]

The success story of Ford Fiesta R5 continues. Rally Technology has just bought car number 225 for Lukasz Habaj. They are going to drive the remaining 4 rounds of the European Championship:
https://www.fiaerc.com/home-erc-comforts-and-new-fiesta-boost-habaj/

[Jarek Z]

Surprising news from Luxembourg. Marijan Griebel, driving Hyundai i20 R5 for the first time, is faster than all WRC cars and official Peugeot Rally Academy driver Pepe López and wins Rally Lëtzebuerg. More about it here:
https://www.fiaerc.com/griebel-heads-lopez-as-erc-juniors-shine-in-luxembourg/

Final results and a video can be found here:
http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/griebel-wsiadl-do-hyundaia,77937

[Mirek]

Is it surprising? I don't see that hard competition when I look at the results.

[Jarek Z]

Well, it's Griebel's first season in a R5 car and I expected more competition from Lopez and van Woensel.

[Rally Power]

Not the most reliable source, but Rallye Magazin is saying Opel will return with a R5 Corsa in 2019. Not with Holzer but in a joint project with Citroen Racing, as the car will be based on the C3 R5.
https://www.rallye-magazin.de/int/artikel/d/2017/07/15/psa-planspiele-opel-corsa-r5-wohl-ab-2019/

[the sniper]

Not the most reliable source, but Rallye Magazin is saying Opel will return with a R5 Corsa in 2019. Not with Holzer but in a joint project with Citroen Racing, as the car will be based on the C3 R5.
https://www.rallye-magazin.de/int/artikel/d/2017/07/15/psa-planspiele-opel-corsa-r5-wohl-ab-2019/

If so that's a shame. Holzer did a good job with the R2 Adam and Gunter Holzer seemed to have great passion for their R5 project. To drop them for the lost boys at Citroen Racing is quite an insult, but not unpredictable when you consider the bigger picture...

[Simmi]

Much better to have a manufacturer backed R5 project though. Helps if you can get the car homologated.

[Rally Power]

If so that's a shame. Holzer did a good job with the R2 Adam and Gunter Holzer seemed to have great passion for their R5 project. To drop them for the lost boys at Citroen Racing is quite an insult, but not unpredictable when you consider the bigger picture...

Yep, Citroen Racing recent tech records are hard to praise, but it’s fair to say that the DS3 R5 was heavily based on Peugeot Sport work with the 208 T16 and despite the long time they took to improve both cars reliability, they eventually managed to make them competitive.

Btw, I'd also regret not to see Holzer’s Corsa in action, but this rumour seems the most viable (and rational) option: ’18 street Corsa will use current C3 platform and cooperation between brands, including their racing operations, is the main asset of PSA/GM Europe fusion.

[Andre Oliveira]

224 to Brynildsen

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFLk3cOWsAIpjZJ?format=jpg&name=large

[Andre Oliveira]

Steve H3ndy

https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20228737_10155682459308689_8659507424761485261_n.j pg?oh=301c333cef5f8430977011057e2503d6&oe=5A0512C0

[NoName]

Is iti allowed with paddle shit next year in R5 car?

[Andre Oliveira]

Yes

[Mirek]

Paddle shit? :D

Anyway... André, is it already official somewhere? I haven't seen any confirmation from FIA.

[dupanton]

Paddle shit? :D



I guess it's a typo, but a very good and accurate one :p

[NoName]

I guess it's a typo, but a very good and accurate one :p

:wave:

[pantealex]

Toyota R5 will be built in Tallinn, Estonia in TGR´s new facilities. Says Tommi Mäkinen in today´s "keskisuomalainen" newspaper.
But not in near future.

[itix]

I guess it's a typo, but a very good and accurate one :p
We're all in complete agreement on this one. As if the segment was not expensive as it is...

[Francis44]

In the preview program of Rally Vinho Madeira Stephane Lefebvre said he will test the C3 R5 for the first time next week, anyone know if the car has been running already before?

[TWRC]

In the preview program of Rally Vinho Madeira Stephane Lefebvre said he will test the C3 R5 for the first time next week, anyone know if the car has been running already before?
Some of its components were tried in either/both DS3 and 208 R5 shells, and this hybrid was said to be already faster than the current PSA R5 cars.

[br21]

For sure no complete C3 R5 will be able to drive in next few couple of weeks

[RS]

Was there any confirmation of a larger restrictor for 2018 R5 cars as well as paddle shift?

Tidemand and Loix have been testing the Fabia in Greece this week with paddle shift: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yYctVWeCjnE

[Andre Oliveira]

Steve Hendy

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGp0R6IWAAE9JYq?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGp0R6UXoAAs4MV?format=jpg&name=large

[Essaj]

Steve Hendy

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGp0R6IWAAE9JYq?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGp0R6UXoAAs4MV?format=jpg&name=large

Liveries that you can make when you dont have to worry about sponsors :D , same with George Gross fiesta in Estonia. Those things are beautifull!

[Mirek]

Very nice but not for the summer weather! One Czech car magazine recently measured difference in interior temperature of a black and silver car standing on the sun and there was massive 14°C difference inside. Comparison with white car will be even more brutal (big difference shall be expected also in engine bay).

[br21]

I fully agree with Mirek, in Rzeszow we had car with black roof... crazy...

[TheFlyingTuga]

I fully agree with Mirek, in Rzeszow we had car with black roof... crazy...

But as far as WRC designs go it doesn't seem to be the trend!

[Mirek]

Do You remember this livery?

https://www.ewrc.cz/images/2012/mcr/janner/mn_a_271_hanninen_3.jpg

You can guess why it quietly transformed into this during the season :)

https://www.ewrc.cz/images/2012/irc/ypres/27%20Juho%20Hanninen-%20Miko%20Markkula.jpg

[Andre Oliveira]

Thats why Prokop/Østberg put some cover

https://www.ewrc.cz/images/2017/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2017/bel__w4b5461.jpg

[Sulland]

Good to see Opel sponsoring Rally Germany.
could be a good sign for the R5 plans!

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DH2vLWxXUAEo6sv?format=jpg&name=large

[Fast Eddie WRC]

MN - The flaw in the R5 formula:

https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/columns/the-flaw-in-the-r5-formula/

[Simmi]

MN - The flaw in the R5 formula:

https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/columns/the-flaw-in-the-r5-formula/

Hmm I'm not sure really. I think you'd get cheaper options but if you want to actually be competitive you'd still need to be in a Fiesta/Fabia/Polo etc.

Also there's a lot more machinery in the UK that is being used outside the BRC. So I have to assume the car category isn't the only issue.

[Mirek]

Exactly. While I would like to see a possibility to develope R5 cars without manufacturer involvement I do agree that there is very very little chance such car could ever be successful. The history repeatedly proves that there is direct corelation between the success rate and the effort spent, i.e. the manufacturers have huge advantage over any privateer. It has to be taken into account that R5 cars are no F1 and nobody can expect a serious interest of big private players. In the end the performance is what wins and cheap but slow cars have never ever managed to succeed.

I personaly dare to say that both with R5 and previous S2000 FIA finally found a working receipt on how to make regional/national championships great again.

[the sniper]

I see where the article is coming from, particularly when you consider the Holzer situation, which it doesn't talk about, but I don't really like the tone. I appreciate it's the British/BRC centric Motorsport News, but I don't think you can or should judge the R5 category by the failures of the British Rally Championship or rallying in general in the UK. I certainly don't think we in the UK should dictate to the FIA what it should do with the R5s. Through mismanagement, bad fortune and changing circumstaces, the UK is not the rallying powerhouse it once was, we're in no position to call the shots...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I was thinking about the Holzer Corsa too.. what a shame it'll be if all that work goes to waste due to Opel not homologating it.

[Rally Power]

The MN article makes total sense. R5 (and R2) are well conceived categories, but having them developed exclusively by manus tuners make it too expensive. Letting private tuners get a piece of the pie would allow customers to have a larger and cheaper choice (even if less competitive) and eventually would force current builders to bring their prices down. If RGT and future R4 models can be homologated without the manus involvement, why can’t the same be allowed in R5?

[Mirek]

Has that ever worked? No, it hasn't.

I mean there were tons of cheap Puntos, Protons, Polos, MGs S2000 around but nobody was buying them. It's sport and sport is about being competitive. Buying slow car is the same like to throw the money out of the window. Look, around 300 customers bought Fabias R5/S2000 despite them being the most expensive cars around. How many private Protons do You remember? One or two? In 2012 several drivers were offered a drive on Barum with Punto for the price of common gr.N car but nobody was interested because the car was already too slow against Fabias, Peugeots or Fiestas and it didn't help that those competitive cars cost 3-4x more.

If You can spend 250 thousand for competitive car or 200 thousand for virtually useless car which one You choose?

Besides that this model didn't work even when there was virtually no competition from true manufacturers - with R-GTs.

[Rally Power]

Has that ever worked? No, it hasn't.
I mean there were tons of cheap Puntos, Protons, Polos, MGs S2000 around but nobody was buying them. It's sport and sport is about being competitive. Buying slow car is the same like to throw the money out of the window. Look, around 300 customers bought Fabias R5/S2000 despite them being the most expensive cars around. How many private Protons do You remember? One or two? In 2012 several drivers were offered a drive on Barum with Punto for the price of common gr.N car but nobody was interested because the car was already too slow against Fabias, Peugeots or Fiestas and it didn't help that those competitive cars cost 3-4x more.
If You can spend 250 thousand for competitive car or 200 thousand for virtually useless car which one You choose?

It worked fine in Gr. A days. There was room for low budget A8 cars like there’s room for low budget R5’s now. Take the Mirage R5 case: the announced price is €180K; that's less 80K than an i20 or a Fabia, which is a lot of money for privateers. The car is far from being ridiculous on gravel (there's no tarmac version simply because homologation didn't happened), so it's not hard to believe that it could be a reasonable alternative for the many Evo’s owners around the world.

R Group was FIA’s definitive switch towards manus tuners. Even if today's rally cars are fantastic machines, their huge cost and the limited number of models available can hardly be seen as the only option to develop the sport. Bringing private tuners back, in a free market spirit (not as in the new R4) with a homologation friendly policy (the opposite of what happened in RGT), can only be positive.

Btw, the Puntos were developed by Fiat and their 0km price was on the same level of a 207. The Proton's and MG were limited scale projects and just a few S2000 Polos were brought to Europe by a Belgium team, but they were built by VW South Africa.

[rallyfiend]

It worked fine in Gr. A days. There was room for low budget A8 cars like there’s room for low budget R5’s now. Take the Mirage R5 case: the announced price is €180K; that's less 80K than an i20 or a Fabia, which is a lot of money for privateers. The car is far from being ridiculous on gravel (there's no tarmac version simply because homologation didn't happened), so it's not hard to believe that it could be a reasonable alternative for the many Evo’s owners around the world.

R Group was FIA’s definitive switch towards manus tuners. Even if today's rally cars are fantastic machines, their huge cost and the limited number of models available can hardly be seen as the only option to develop the sport. Bringing private tuners back, in a free market spirit (not as in the new R4) with a homologation friendly policy (the opposite of what happened in RGT), can only be positive.

Btw, the Puntos were developed by Fiat and their 0km price was on the same level of a 207. The Proton's and MG were limited scale projects and just a few S2000 Polos were brought to Europe by a Belgium team, but they were built by VW South Africa.

The Mirage R5 is listed as 180k, because that's the maximum price for an R5 allowed under the regulations.

Same as the other cars....

[Mirek]

It worked fine in Gr. A days. There was room for low budget A8 cars like there’s room for low budget R5’s now. Take the Mirage R5 case: the announced price is €180K; that's less 80K than an i20 or a Fabia, which is a lot of money for privateers. The car is far from being ridiculous on gravel (there's no tarmac version simply because homologation didn't happened), so it's not hard to believe that it could be a reasonable alternative for the many Evo’s owners around the world.

R Group was FIA’s definitive switch towards manus tuners. Even if today's rally cars are fantastic machines, their huge cost and the limited number of models available can hardly be seen as the only option to develop the sport. Bringing private tuners back, in a free market spirit (not as in the new R4) with a homologation friendly policy (the opposite of what happened in RGT), can only be positive.

Btw, the Puntos were developed by Fiat and their 0km price was on the same level of a 207. The Proton's and MG were limited scale projects and just a few S2000 Polos were brought to Europe by a Belgium team, but they were built by VW South Africa.

The Mirage is hardly any success. The car isn't competitive against the top dogs, there is only few of them around and it will stay like that. Just like it was with all private S2000 cars. Proton Satria S2000 was much more competitive car and it still never broke to the market despite being cheaper and only slightly slower than the top cars.

In my example with Puntos I didn't speak about new cars. In 2011-2012 a used Punto cost 1/3 of what a new Fabia or Fiesta yet nobody was buying or even using them. Everybody sane was buying the expensive but competitive cars. That used Punto wasn't worse than contemporary private cars which were moreover 2x more expensive because they were new. Logically if there was a market for cheap but somewhat slower cars the stages would be filled with used Puntos but they were not. Look at it also from sponsor's point of view. Why shall You give money to a project which is non-competitive from the very beginning no matter who sits behind the wheel? That's pure waste of money. And I don't even start to compare customer services which private teams can offer.

Argument with gr.A would be good if it wasn't quarter century later than that time. Again please look at R-GT. Even without any competition from works team the formula ended with total disaster because teams neither need nor want cars which aren't good for anything else than having fun.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Isnt there any trickle-down effect, with older used R5's getting into the hands of less wealthy privateers by now ?

The earliest R5's will be 5 years old next year - how much do they go for ?

In the long-term something has to replace the ageing Evos and Subarus...

[br21]

Mirage is not R5 car, it's R5-wannabe, and still price is high and level is lower than R5... I know that car quite well...
I fully agree with Mirek, it's simply like that... if someone can spend 200k he will also be able to spend 250k for much better car. And running cost is quite smilar if you compare fast and slow R5 cars...
S2000 Polos were build in Belgium, not imported from SA.

[Rally Power]

The Mirage is hardly any success. The car isn't competitive against the top dogs, there is only few of them around and it will stay like that.

How can the Mirage became a success without being homologated? The car showed some speed on gravel but MPart would need to sell more units to have means for a bigger development, and the only way to sell more units is by having Mitsubishi approval to homologate it.

For sure you’ll always need a top manu car to become champ, but there’s room for lower budget cars in any class. Even now the FIA is thinking on having R2 light, as R2 aren’t affordable for beginners. The same could happen in R5, once there are plenty of private drivers desiring to get more affordable 4wd rally cars (R4 will hardly be the solution with a single kit supplier).

Btw, it was told here many times: RGT didn’t work because the homologation process was too demanding and expensive for privateers.


The Mirage R5 is listed as 180k, because that's the maximum price for an R5 allowed under the regulations. Same as the other cars....

Actually, the Mirage looked to be the only one respecting the FIA ‘limit’. Btw, once you don’t believe in that price, can you tell us how much a new Mirage R5 costs?

[Rally Power]

S2000 Polos were build in Belgium

Using VW SA Polo S2000 homologation.

Anyway, besides getting a lowest price, to allow feasible private tuners homologations would also mean to have a larger diversity of models and brands in rally; I can't understand why people can't find that positive...are you all pleased with having only a handful of R2's and other with R5's?

[Mirek]

Using VW SA Polo S2000 homologation.

Complete asphalt developement was done in Belgium. VW SA was behind the paperwork but not doing any asphalt development.

[Mirek]

How can the Mirage became a success without being homologated? The car showed some speed on gravel but MPart would need to sell more units to have means for a bigger development.

For sure you’ll always need a top manu car to become champ, but there’s room for lower budget cars in any class. Even now the FIA is thinking on having R2 light, as R2 aren’t affordable for beginners. The same could happen in R5, once there are plenty of private drivers desiring to get more affordable 4wd rally cars (R4 will hardly be the solution with a single kit supplier).

Feel free to bring any example which supports Your theory that this can work. We've seen more than 10 years of trying with plenty of private or semi-works projects some even of reasonable quality (Proton S2000) but none succeeded.


Btw, it was told here many times: RGT didn’t work because the homologation process was too demanding and expensive for privateers.

No, it didn't work because it brought cars useful only for fun lowing gentlemen.

[Rally Power]

Feel free to bring any example which supports Your theory that this can work. We've seen more than 10 years of trying with plenty of private or semi-works projects some even of reasonable quality (Proton S2000) but none succeeded.

I’m amazed; apparently you’re satisfy with having only a bunch of R2 models, costing close to €100K, and a handful of R5’s, costing over €250K, as only valid options for top national and international rally series.

The reason of not being possible to get examples of successful privately developed rally cars examples is quite obvious: FIA rules are meant to undermine private tuners. Even on RGT (a manu free class), only a few teams managed to cope with FIA expensive bureaucracy.

Above all, I’m talking (and that seems to be also MN article purpose) about making the sport more affordable for beginners and privateers, by having a larger range of rally cars provided by private tuners, alongside those developed by manus official tuners, having top drivers and teams in mind.

[Mirek]

I’m amazed; apparently you’re satisfy with having only a bunch of R2 models, costing close to €100K, and a handful of R5’s, costing over €250K, as only valid options for top national and international rally series.

It's You who said so, not me.

But anyway, both R2 and R5 are among the very most succesful formulas FIA has ever established and there is nothing more stupid than to change what is not broken. Now the problem with R2 is that there is a need for new technical formula following latest trends in car manufacturing, i.e. the move to the turbo engines because no manufacturers produce 1.6 NA engines anymore. But R2 were around for 10 years and they were hugely successful in that period.


The reason of not being possible to get examples of successful privately developed rally cars examples is quite obvious: FIA rules are meant to undermine private tuners. Even on RGT (a manu free class), only a few teams managed to cope with FIA expensive bureaucracy.

No, the real reason is that creating successful cars needs huge money and plenty of very good people. Even if the privateer manages to create good car he can't offer adequate services to the customers. As an example the story of our localy developed Fabia R2. The car was build with quite serious financial backing. It had very good engine and gearing and overall good potential and it was homologated but it was proven to be near impossible to create functional customer support structure, i.e. spare parts delivery, engineers on demand etc. Also despite all the effort the details is what makes the best the best and that's where the manufacturers were always ahead. In the end the cars nearly disappeared which made them another example of this ever repeating story.


Above all, I’m talking (and that seems to be also MN article purpose) about making the sport more affordable for beginners and privateers, by having a larger range of rally cars provided by private tuners, alongside those developed by manus official tuners, having top drivers and teams in mind.

Since I started to follow rallysport I keep hearing the same but the successful periods of my time in the sport were never symbolized by low cost and cheap cars. In fact it was exactly opposite. The most successful periods were always those with expensive and very spectacular cars which brought crowds to the stages and stirred the attention of the media. Speaking for CZ the by far worst period was when gr.N was the top category and the most successful was when WRC cars were allowed (by the public attention by far) and later again with S2000/R5 cars. I believe that applies for plenty of other countries. Everybody was claiming that WRC cars were crazy expensive yet in those times many teams could afford them because the public and sponsors were interested in them. On the other hand You could see how miserably the British experiment with cheap and affordable national championship ended.

Anyway back to the topic. What the sport needs is not non-factory R5 cars. It needs update of R2 formula to bring new cars based on the latest generation of stock cars. And it needs a big support from FIA towards projects like Opel Adam cup which is absolutely perfect platform to start rallying with.

[Rally Power]

Since I started to follow rallysport I keep hearing the same but the successful periods of my time in the sport were never symbolized by low cost and cheap cars.

This is not about having cheap rally cars instead of expensive ones. This is about finding ways to make possible to have both, as currently only the expensive cars are available.

Having light R2 and R5 categories would be interesting, especially if private tuners could get involved on their homologation.

[racerx1979]

They have R1 spec cars already being built which are fairly basic version of the R2/R3 cars.

R2 cars can be had for 55-70k depending on options so not quite 100k.

[Mirek]

R1 formula isn't really working. There is definitely a lot of space for improvement there.

[stefanvv]

Isn't that the problem? All up to R5 formula 3 are not working out of 5. In my math that's bad.

[Mirek]

Of course it is a problem but it is not a problem of R5 where this discussion started and what this topic is about.

[stefanvv]

Yes, not for this specific category, which spans who was it - Skoda, M-Sport/Ford and who else? May be the rest should focus on R4 category instead of racing donkeys with horses?!?

EDIT: Seems to me in WRC category are more competitive manufacturers/brands than in R5, I find this very strange in this broad sport.

[racerx1979]

Yes, not for this specific category, which spans who was it - Skoda, M-Sport/Ford and who else? May be the rest should focus on R4 category instead of racing donkeys with horses?!?

EDIT: Seems to me in WRC category are more competitive manufacturers/brands than in R5, I find this very strange in this broad sport.

All the TV coverage is focused on WRC cars not R5 cars. You'd be surprised at how many people don't even know who is in the fight for R5. They only care for WRC.

[Mirek]

Yes, not for this specific category, which spans who was it - Skoda, M-Sport/Ford and who else? May be the rest should focus on R4 category instead of racing donkeys with horses?!?

That's natural development. Everytime the top dogs step by step force the unsuccessul out. Besides that in many countries Citroëns and Peugeots are still competitive. They lost WRC2 big time but that's how it goes. They will try again with C3 R5 next year and hopefully they will do better.


EDIT: Seems to me in WRC category are more competitive manufacturers/brands than in R5, I find this very strange in this broad sport.

As I wrote before. Where there is public interest there are money to buy and to build. The resources which can be spent in WRC are totally uncomparable with what You can get out of ERC or national championships. It's only marketing after all. What was totally wrong was when there were only two manufacturers in WRC. That was the time when the potential of WRC was left unused. Now it's how it shall be.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

C3 R5 announced on Monday ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DItqTB4XcAE4Ugf.jpg:large

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/21366761_10154921016932057_6320755441290392803_o.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=afb53180fe7b0fb9e3e0edaf8b366ed1&oe=5A275353
https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/21368814_10154921016917057_1648193354877863616_o.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=83d0cbf86a8bd3b5c4ca8266e2db285d&oe=5A5ABD51
https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/21273397_10154921016937057_7824233195109716886_o.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=9abbb1ff42396bbee64d047148507f7a&oe=5A5F16E2

[Mirek]

That's one ugly car. Hope it's working better than it looks.

[Andre Oliveira]

DS3 is beautifull. That is horrendous (like WRC).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

C3 R5 testing...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/131650/citroen-begins-testing-all-new-r5-for-wrc2erc

[Simmi]

Yeah that's not a pretty car. From that front shot it reminds me of the Mirage.

[Andre Oliveira]

FIRST DEVELOPMENT TESTS FOR THE CITROËN C3 R5!


After a year of research, calculation and design work, Citroën Racing is holding the first development tests for the C3 R5 this week.


An entirely new product intended for customer racing, the Citroën C3 R5 aims to become the new benchmark in its category.


Since 2013, the R5 regulations devised by the FIA have led to the appearance of a new generation of rally cars. Designed for private teams and drivers, these reduced-cost products are often described as "mini-WRCs" due to their technical characteristics: four-wheel drive, 1.6-litre direct injection turbo engine generating about 280bhp, sequential semi-automatic gearbox, etc.



The success enjoyed by the category also comes down to its universal appeal: the R5s compete in the WRC 2, the ERC and in most of the national championships. The cornerstone of the renewed customer racing line-up at Citroën Racing, the C3 R5 will shortly be ready for competitive action!



"We are reaching an important milestone this week with the first development tests of the car, which is already close to the finished product," explained Yves Matton, Citroën Racing Team Principal. "The specifications given to the technical teams are clear: we want the Citroën C3 R5 to set new standards in the category, in terms of performance, reliability and controlled operating costs. In order to create an entirely new product, we used all of Citroën Racing's experience in the WRC, adding contributions from leading technical suppliers such as Sadev for the transmission and Reiger for the suspension systems. Our works drivers will also be taking part in development of the car: Stéphane Lefebvre and Craig Breen are driving in this first session, along with Yoann Bonato, the current leader of the French Rally Championship."



Design work on the Citroën C3 R5 began about a year ago. In addition to the work done in the design and calculation office, most of the mechanical components have been tested in real conditions, on test mules driven since the start of 2017.



"For the first outing of the full car, we are already pretty close to the definition that will be offered to customers. The sessions are being held on gravel, on sufficiently varied road surfaces to test the car's robustness and begin fine-tuning the basic set-up," explained Pierre Budar, Development Director, Customer Racing Vehicles. "There is a direct link between the C3 R5 and the C3 WRC: for example, the roll cage of the two cars was designed by the same engineer. Some solutions have been re-used, whilst adapting them to the constraints of the regulations and small-scale production. Similarly, the engine has been developed in-house, based on the unit used on the production model, therefore providing the greatest potential in terms of performance and reliability. We have also chosen to work together with the best suppliers. Overall, we have an even, consistent product, capable of meeting the goals of the customers that choose the Citroën C3 R5."



Following these first test sessions, Citroën Racing will be pursuing development of the C3 R5 on both gravel and tarmac, calling upon various drivers with different profiles in order to achieve a genuinely versatile product. FIA homologation is scheduled for 2018.

http://int-media.citroen.com/en/first-development-tests-citro%C3%ABn-c3-r5

[Mirek]

Anyone knows which base engine they used this time?

[RS]

https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/21366761_10154921016932057_6320755441290392803_o.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=afb53180fe7b0fb9e3e0edaf8b366ed1&oe=5A275353
https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/21368814_10154921016917057_1648193354877863616_o.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=83d0cbf86a8bd3b5c4ca8266e2db285d&oe=5A5ABD51
https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/21273397_10154921016937057_7824233195109716886_o.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=9abbb1ff42396bbee64d047148507f7a&oe=5A5F16E2

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0c/Mr_Blobby%2C_2009.jpg/250px-Mr_Blobby%2C_2009.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Anyone knows which base engine they used this time?

"Similarly, the engine has been developed in-house, based on the unit used on the production model, therefore providing the greatest potential in terms of performance and reliability."

But there is no 1.6 petrol in the production C3 range...

[skarderud]

"Similarly, the engine has been developed in-house, based on the unit used on the production model, therefore providing the greatest potential in terms of performance and reliability."

But there is no 1.6 petrol in the production C3 range...
Maybe a 1,8 or 2,0 with shorter stroke?

Sent fra min XP7700 via Tapatalk

[Sulland]

Mirage is not R5 car, it's R5-wannabe, and still price is high and level is lower than R5... I know that car quite well...

If we say 250k € for a top notch R5 with both gravel and asfalt setup.
How much will a Mirage with same equipment cost?

[Rally Hokkaido]

If we say 250k € for a top notch R5 with both gravel and asfalt setup.
How much will a Mirage with same equipment cost?

You can buy two used ones with spares and container for EUR325,000. http://rallycarsforsale.net/ads/mitsubishi-mirage-ap4/

[Mirek]

"Similarly, the engine has been developed in-house, based on the unit used on the production model, therefore providing the greatest potential in terms of performance and reliability."

But there is no 1.6 petrol in the production C3 range...

That's saying pretty much nothing. R5 can use engine from whatever car in the manufacturer's range. It doesn't need to be from the said model.


Maybe a 1,8 or 2,0 with shorter stroke?

Do they have something suitable in production? I'm not that much informed about current PSA engine portfolio.

[RS]

Looking at the Wikipedia page for the Citroen C5 they have a 1.8 and 2.0 petrol, perhaps used in China if not in Europe.

[Mirek]

That's really old naturally aspirated engine. I don't know if it's useful. Hopefully Br21 can tell us which engine they used for R5 if it's again the EP6 or some other.

[Andre Oliveira]

Chassis 234 to Tomasz Kasperczky

https://scontent.fopo2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21314503_1858805680815517_4507244191631210492_n.jp g?oh=e202a3897f2f0490b67815ace3d54498&oe=5A52B182
https://scontent.fopo2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21317421_1858806074148811_2331291859046376746_n.jp g?oh=c523baac86131c90248fba4165a6b52b&oe=5A1781EA

[Andre Oliveira]

236 to Marius Aasen

https://scontent.fopo2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21231790_1415206145229552_1357010839397772658_n.jp g?oh=11e27d1b19f76cb9f078609651675670&oe=5A5CF77E

[Andre Oliveira]

Fabia R5 #169 to P.A. Racing (I)
Hyundai i20 R5 #27 to RallyBaron (FIN)

[Andre Oliveira]

FIA reject R5 paddleshift gearbox rule change


Last week the FIA cancelled the proposed rule change allowing paddle gear shift systems, which teams have been busy preparing for the 2018 season.

This was decided at the August meeting of the FIA WRC Commission held at Rally Germany.

One of the teams concerned explained that this was all part of the FIA’s fight to keep R5 costs down, believing that costs cannot be maintained if the FIA allow more technology, while at the same time introducing new safety measures.

It is believed that a group of the manufacturers involved in this issue had proposed with the FIA an increase in the costs of the 5%, after finding that actual production costs since the rules were originally drafted had risen in the region of 10% on the total car.

With the recent announcement of the new Citroen C3 R5 and news that Volkswagen Motorsport is on schedule with their R5 rally car to be available in 2018, the issue of costs is becoming increasingly urgent.


Written by Martin Holmes on 07 September 2017.

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/11782-fia-reject-r5-paddleshift-gearbox-rule-change

[RS]

Well that was clever, leaving it so late after teams had spent time and money developing it.

So what are the other changes to the R5 rules for 2018?

[AdvEvo]

An R5 is still very expensive to run if you compare it to group N

[Mirek]

That's natural because they are way faster.

[AnttiL]

Yeh, I'd compare R5's more to 4WD Group A cars with WRC being the step above that. Although, we need a good cheaper R4 alternative as well.

[AnttiL]

Also, Lefebvre testing the C3 R5 today https://twitter.com/AS_PipoLopez/status/905719458819395586

[liposh]

...Although, we need a good cheaper R4 alternative as well.

I totally agree. I think the R5 class is really good formula for top level of regional rallying (thanks God, because with people in FIA you never know) , but you need some cheaper 4wd car. From point of view of average rally spectator, who isn´t hardcore petrolhead the N4 cars were enough fun to watch and there were plenty of them on every small rally some 7 years ago...For all my nephews, girlfriends, wives (well, there is only one wife till now :D) etc. the R2 and R3 class cars are not spectacular enough. (except veery few drivers) anyway I am not totally convinced about that R4 "oreca way" concept. We will see.

[tommeke_B]

N4 cars were enough fun to watch??? I think you need really crazy drivers to make N4 cars somewhat interesting..

[Jarek Z]

N4 cars were enough fun to watch

Are you sure you remember them well? ;)

[liposh]

https://youtu.be/rK3uv3WpEQY ...do you see the difference between THAT and new R2 cars? ;)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Citroën Racing‏ @CitroenRacing
Gravel test for the #C3R5 today!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJIbpZ8XkAI8N4z.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJIbpaNXUAAy8_b.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJHsQtHXgAATUdS.jpg:large

[HaCo]

When can we expect an R5 from Toyota, I seem to remember it was planned.

[dimviii]

c3 r5
https://youtu.be/W_ZGOZJHAYk

[Mirek]

That certainly looks and sounds like a step forward compared to the current PSA R5 cars.

[dimviii]

Breen

http://planetemarcus.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/test-days-c3r5-septembre-2017/Test_C3R5_0917_6.jpg

more
http://planetemarcus.com/premiere-sortie-en-essais-pour-la-citroen-c3r5/

[RS]

That certainly looks and sounds like a step forward compared to the current PSA R5 cars.

Yeah, hard to tell much from one video but it looks a bit more 'normal'

[the sniper]

I didn't notice this hadn't been mentioned, but news that'll be welcomed by some, an article that was originally on Autosport last week but seems to have been moved to Motorsport News:


Citroen’s all-new C3 R5 will miss its Monte Carlo Rally debut next season because of an FIA regulation U-turn labeled ‘stupid’ by the team’s senior management.

The C3 R5 broke cover and tested in public for the first time near Castres in south-west France last week. The car was tested with a hydraulically operated paddle gearshift – but that Sadev system will never see competition after WRC Commission rejected the change from a manual sequential shift to the paddle.

The FIA pointed out to Motorsport News that the change was made in an attempt to contain costs for the existing R5 drivers, who would need to up-spec their cars to remain competitive. Citroen’s customer racing director Pierre Budar dismissed such talk.

“They decide two weeks ago,” Budar told MN. “Of course it will cost something for the existing cars [to take the paddle], but it’s not compulsory. And it will not bring any performance improvements, it’s for reliability and comfort.

“For us this is a big mess. We need time to redesign the parts. We have to reproduce prototype parts and then test these parts and this will take as much as two months. It’s sure that we cannot homologate the car when we wanted to.

“Before this we had the chance to have the car in Monte Carlo, but now this is not possible.”

Budar estimated the cost of adding a paddle shift to an existing car at around £3000, but the cost to Citroen to redevelop is considerably higher.

“The tooling, everything was done for this paddle,” he said. “Now we have to rework the hydraulic pump, redesign all of the electrics on the centre [transmission] tunnel. Because we have the paddle, we have the handbrake much closer to the steering wheel – now we have to move this to make space for the shift and the cost is big for us.”

The loss of the team’s opportunity for a high-profile launch in Monte Carlo is one of the reasons Citroen team principal Yves Matton is pushing the FIA for a change in its decision-making process.

Citroen team principal Yves Matton said the FIA’s cost argument held no weight.

“It’s quite stupid,” he said. “It’s making the price higher not to have the paddle. It’s a bit more when you buy the car [to have the paddle], but it’s cheaper when you are running the car.”

Positive test

Despite that setback, Matton said the C3’s first test had gone to plan with plenty of kilometres completed so far.

“That’s the important thing, every day the car has been running and doing a lot of kilometres without having to stop for any problem,” he said.

“We will continue testing and we won’t bring the car to market and homologate until it is at the right level to fight with the fastest; this will be somewhere in the first part of 2018 – but it won’t be January.”

Matton is targeting 20 sales in the first year from homologation and 100 in the car’s complete life.

https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/?p=60102
Credit to David Evans, I wish he'd just do more reporting like this.

Quoting myself from June:

If pretty much all the manufacturers are working on next year now, surely it's too late for the FIA to change the regs now or do they just need to act fast? Or are the manufactures already aware?

I find the way this situation has been handled rather bizarre. I appreciate that rallying operates in a small bubble, but surely these changes should have been argued and officially settled long ago. Bearing in mind the number of new R5 cars in development, I don't get how they can be messing about with the rules behind closed doors with so little being known publicly, let alone officially, at such a late stage.

Are we to presume that they're also sticking to the 32mm air restrictor, which was also rumoured to change (increase) so R5 regs stay the same?

[Mirek]

André Oliveira posted an article from Martin Holmes about this FIA decision two pages back. Anyway I do agree that it si stupid to change it again when all team had it developped...

[the sniper]

André Oliveira posted an article from Martin Holmes about this FIA decision two pages back. Anyway I do agree that it si stupid to change it again when all team had it developped...

Woops, I missed that page! Sorry folks. Well at least the MN article is fleshed out with Budar and Matton's quotes and the news of the delayed launch.

[RS]

Are we to presume that they're also sticking to the 32mm air restrictor, which was also rumoured to change (increase) so R5 regs stay the same?

I would like to know this too..

And do we know if there will be a Peugeot version of the new C3 R5, or perhaps an Opel one?

If there is a restrictor size increase that could make the 208 even more obsolete.

[TWRC]

I would like to know this too..

And do we know if there will be a Peugeot version of the new C3 R5, or perhaps an Opel one?

If there is a restrictor size increase that could make the 208 even more obsolete.

Famin said this year that they want an R5 version from the new 208. That is supposed to debut in 2018, so R5 version might come in 2019?

[dimviii]

TGardemeister/TGS‏*@TGardemeister
Well come #178 our new born baby You will beet your sisters soon! #WRC #skoda #R5 #tgsworldwide

[dimviii]

Teemu / Rallirinki‏*@HartusvuoriWRC
Andreas Mikkelsen did a two-day development test for Hyundai i20 R5 in France over the weekend. They used gravel roads.

[dimviii]

KalleRovanperaRacing‏*@KalleRovanpera
Rally Di Roma has come to an end and so is my time with Peugeot!
Italian rally season has taught me alot!
Thanks to @peugeotitalia @Pirelli!

[PLuto]

It is quite interesting with the paddle shifts. I have heard in May or June that despite SOME manufacturers were hardly pushing, FIA was talking that they dont want to allow to use paddle shifts on R5 cars...

[Mirek]

Was there ever such talk? I lived under an impression that the reason was mainly to differentiate more R5 and R4 cars.

[PLuto]

The reason for paddle shifts was mainly forced by manufacturers. FIA is happy with R5 category (despite the price is higher that they wanted).

[AnttiL]

https://rallysportmag.com/feature-citroen-developing-brand-new-c3-r5-car/

Article about the C3 R5 development

[Andre Oliveira]

"2018 will see the return of the new WRC cars after one year of use and fine-tuning, and the debut of new cars in lower categories, including the new Citroen C3R5 and Hyundai i20R5 and perhaps also the Toyota Yaris R5."

In Rallye Monte-Carlo guide 1

[pantealex]

"2018 will see the return of the new WRC cars after one year of use and fine-tuning, and the debut of new cars in lower categories, including the new Citroen C3R5 and Hyundai i20R5 and perhaps also the Toyota Yaris R5."

In Rallye Monte-Carlo guide 1

They did forgot 2 very important new R5:

POLO
and
FIESTA

[RS]

I thought Citroen already ruled out Monte?

And we have seen nothing of the Polo, Yaris or new Fiesta yet. I presume they are already all testing but one would expect to have seen something by this stage.

[the sniper]

And we have seen nothing of the Polo, Yaris or new Fiesta yet. I presume they are already all testing but one would expect to have seen something by this stage.

The closest I've seen to a release date for the new Fiesta is a quote from Motorsport News from Paul Bird, British (formerly World) Superbike team boss and long time M Sport privateer WRC customer, on returning from a two year drug ban earlier this year. He said: “I’ll have an R5, but I’m going to wait for the new shape to come out at the end of 2018. I’ll use the Focus [WRC '07] until then. I can always hire a car.”
https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/?p=57928

[dimviii]

BILLIOT Jérémie‏*@planetemarcus
#WRC New Tarmac test in France for Citroën Racing debuts today with @SLefebvreRallye and new C3R5 → http://bit.ly/2y3JYyA


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKkiuExW4AIUhm8.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKkiuEzWAAAy9T6.jpg

[dimviii]

nice livery from Galatariotis fabia r5 at Cyprus

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKkqqCfWsAAyOFg.jpg

[TWRC]

C3 R5 tarmac test video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgxPU5WHqK0
It seems like they were using similar front suspension solution as the tarmac spec C3 WRC.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKo3FTTXcAAPwdc?format=jpg&name=large

[Mirek]

It didn't last long with the Hyundai...

[Mirek]

C3 R5 tarmac test video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgxPU5WHqK0
It seems like they were using similar front suspension solution as the tarmac spec C3 WRC.

Certainly no wow effect on asphalt. I don't know but in this video it doesn't look good to me.

[dimviii]

Certainly no wow effect on asphalt. I don't know but in this video it doesn't look good to me.

yeap doesn't seem fast but we don't know what they were testing.Car seems different from ds3 suspension wise,more rear suspension travel.

[TWRC]

Bonato: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGO2a0wl8EY&feature=youtu.be

[TheFlyingTuga]

Bonato: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGO2a0wl8EY&feature=youtu.be

It could be me... but that's something about that car that doesn't impresse me! Looks slow somehow

[RS]

Agree the Citroen doesn't look too spectacular so far, but maybe the drivers weren't pushing too much or they had the engine turned down.

It reminds me a bit of the Hyundai R5, a bit 'soft'.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@VWMotorsport
We will start testing the new Polo R5 shortly. We will keep you updated. Best regards.

[RS]

If the Polo is largely the same as the Fabia mechanically I suppose it won't need as much testing as otherwise would have been the case.

[Ralph-Mario]

VW Polo R5 Debut Rallye Germany Aug. ´18. :

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/d/2017/09/30/volkswagen-polo-r5-debuet-bei-rallye-deutschland-2018/

[dimviii]

onboard from PROTON IRIZ R5
https://youtu.be/wNIpm4qIw_Q

[TWRC]

Andreucci C3 R5 test: https://youtu.be/Di0cQKSCenM

Edit: Rossel also tested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOXXSO0tcgA

[dimviii]

Andreucci C3 R5 test: https://youtu.be/Di0cQKSCenM

that was enough fast.Seeme a bit high for tarmac spec, like fabia?

[Mirek]

On a lighter note... it's quite hard to find less suitable music for the video :D

[dimviii]

about polo r5

Rubén Pérez‏*@RubnPerez
Replying to @RubnPerez
En 2018 construirán 15 unidades, las cuales ya están todas vendidas. #WRC Para 2019 la intención es construir otras 50 unidades del Polo R5.

In 2018 they will build 15 units, which are already all sold. #WRC For 2019 intends to build 50 units of the Polo R5.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Anyone else see Colin Clark suggesting that Lefebvre will be heading up the Citroen C3 R5 challenge in 2018 ?

He also said he heard from an insider who has driven it, that the car is: "Quite, quite magnificent. Possibly the best car in that category..."

[Sulland]

https://rallies.info/webentry/2017/malton/entries.php?type=u

Proton Iriz R5 on the entry list for the Malton Forest rally!

Is the Iriz homologated, or inline to be by Proton?

[Mirek]

Yoann Bonato with C3 R5 on Rallye du Var: http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=19381

[TWRC]

Yoann Bonato with C3 R5 on Rallye du Var: http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=19381
Good decision. I thought they should have done the same before homologation of the 208/DS3 as well (OK, 208 did Ypres, but was a very different car by the time of homologation). Also, it will be interesting to compare it to the old PSA cars and the Fabias/Fiestas.

[Andre Oliveira]

Iriz R5 scheduled first competitive outing this weekend on the Malton Stages. Marcus Gronholm recently tested the car in Wales as featured in Motorsport News.

https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23031479_1477240062395755_7321886509842496409_n.jp g?oh=c2aaf8d8ab46d4010104e4b6c13ae203&oe=5AAAAB69
https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23032910_1477240065729088_3831566281196222497_n.jp g?oh=68419413e03250d1f63a8fa33139599a&oe=5A70A5F2
https://scontent.fopo2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23032667_1477240072395754_2994951278109427900_n.jp g?oh=17b7c2db8326126ba98a7fa84bf8af2c&oe=5A7107B6

[racerx1979]

MEM is a solid company with some talented folks. I would not be surprised if the Proton is up to spec with other cars. Always nice to see other manu's get involved. With Toyota coming into R5 it will be a great roundup of manu's showing off their talents.

[Rally Power]

Martin Holmes revealing more details on the C3 R5, in a talk with CR customer racing service new chief, Pierre Budar: designed from blank sheet; new Sadev transmission and latest EP6FDTR version (coming from 308GTI) https://rallysportmag.com/feature-citroen-developing-brand-new-c3-r5-car/

[dimviii]

SdeSolé‏*@S_de_Sole
First gravel steps for the baby brother C3R5!! #craigbreen #simonetempestini #Citroen #testing

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNyDts-XcAE4Ykb.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNyDz_dVwAAUXl_.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNyDxmHUQAYNEZM.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNyDv5FWkAAWqS7.jpg


more photos
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1622361704469696.1073741942.100000876474890&type=3

[Sub_Skoda]

Tempestini ??!!

[PLuto]

Tempestini ??!!

Why not? As winner of JWRC 2016 he was Citroen official driver in WRC2 2017.

[dimviii]

Tempestini c3 r5
https://youtu.be/_9mVSJG8koQ

[dimviii]

Breen c3 r5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvGQA0JKbyA&feature=youtu.be

[Munkvy]

Why not? As winner of JWRC 2016 he was Citroen official driver in WRC2 2017.

Main thing is Breen is very familiar with the previous PSA products, so has a good idea of what doesn't work well in an R5...

[Mirek]

On the other hand Tempestini has large experience both with DS3 R5 and Fiesta R5 (and Sadev gearbox and transmission) and that's not the case of Breen.

[RICARDO75]

Polo R5...