[WRC] News & Rumours 2019 [Archive] - Page 6

the sniper

25th January 2019, 22:25

Has anybody seen this/ has any idea what they're on about:
https://www.facebook.com/WorldRally/videos/315001435796358/?__tn__=kC-R&eid=ARAAkuUHtzesfjTs4FDsRXW2ZZBtJOFDycQMtMW3Qx0kP_ I2wpczC-vWqlUekixH_DjK87ic7geQB1JR&hc_ref=ARQn5m-wW30KuGEhMSR7F0P81LHEpZnq_EZUjzW_Ee6lPMvHOiXQ8O_yD vvB8xf4xKc&fref=nf&__xts__

I read the FIA are opening a Hall of Fame for Rally. I think one already exsist for F1? I think Molly Pettit tweeted she's doing the presentation soon, might have been in her new blog.

EDIT: This is where I read it: https://www.mollypettit.com/articles/new-year-more-writing (At the bottom in bold)

KiwiWRCfan

26th January 2019, 03:39

I read the FIA are opening a Hall of Fame for Rally. I think one already exsist for F1? I think Molly Pettit tweeted she's doing the presentation soon, might have been in her new blog.

EDIT: This is where I read it: https://www.mollypettit.com/articles/new-year-more-writing (At the bottom in bold)

Yes an FIA WRC Hall of Fame will be inaugurated in Paris some time next week.
Yes an FIA F1 Hall of Fame already exists - it was opened in 2017 or 2018.
Molly Pettit wrote a blog about 2 weeks ago in which she revealed that Emyr Penlan and herself would be MCs for the Hall of Fame induction evening in late January.
here is link to blog https://www.mollypettit.com/articles/new-year-more-writing

Rally Power

28th January 2019, 13:07

We’ve talked about Ogier and Citroen MC wins but we didn’t properly mention the most amazing achievement of the weekend: Citroen is the first manu to get 100 wins in the WRC! They’ve been leading the chart for a while (since 2011) but to get WRC win #100 at the same time they’re celebrating the brand 100th anniversary is really something. Huge congrats!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx78ASVWsAIlSa3.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx77-SlXQAA5uol.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx77_O-WkAwRQaz.jpg
https://twitter.com/CitroenRacing

ToughMac

28th January 2019, 13:22

You've forgotten one major thing, they got that 100th win in France. So that win has come with a French car with a French driver (and French co-driver) on French tyres in France!!

dimviii

28th January 2019, 14:00

We’ve talked about Ogier and Citroen MC wins but we didn’t properly mention the most amazing achievement of the weekend: Citroen is the first manu to get 100 wins in the WRC! They’ve been leading the chart for a while (since 2011) but to get WRC win #100 at the same time they’re celebrating the brand 100th anniversary is really something. Huge congrats!

Loeb always a step ahead.
Loeb with 9 world championships,last year at Catalunya at 99 years of citroen,gave them their 99th win https://www.petrolheads.gr/images/smilies/smooth/biggrin.gifhttps://www.petrolheads.gr/images/smilies/oldforum/lol.gif

Norm75

28th January 2019, 14:29

And Meeke the 98th in 98 years and so on . . .

dimviii

28th January 2019, 17:34

And Meeke the 98th in 98 years and so on . . .

Xsara Kit Car: 2

Xsara WRC: 32

C4 WRC: 36

DS3 WRC: 26

C3 WRC: 4

Par pilote:

Loeb: 79

Ogier: 8

Meeke: 5

Sainz: 2

Bugalski:2

Sordo: 1

Puras:1

Hirvonen: 1

Duval: 1

Rally Power

28th January 2019, 19:05

You've forgotten one major thing, they got that 100th win in France. So that win has come with a French car with a French driver (and French co-driver) on French tyres in France!!

Yep, and for breakfast the French winning crew had baguette and Brie cheese, made from French cows milk; even the bananas were French, from Martinique island…I’ll save you lunch and dinner menus. Seriously, this isn’t about Citroen being French: the 100th win is a new WRC milestone and it deserves to be properly mentioned. Btw, vive le WRC!

ToughMac

28th January 2019, 21:52

Yep, and for breakfast the French winning crew had baguette and Brie cheese, made from French cows milk; even the bananas were French, from Martinique island…I’ll save you lunch and dinner menus. Seriously, this isn’t about Citroen being French: the 100th win is a new WRC milestone and it deserves to be properly mentioned. Btw, vive le WRC!

All jokes aside this should be a PR or a marketing persons wet dream. Don't know if the old rallying adage of "win on Sunday sell on Monday" still rings true today but what Citroen achieved over the weekend provide they make the best use of it should translate into a potentially huge sales opportunity. That sales opportunity is not just in France but right across Europe.

T16

30th January 2019, 08:12

Heads up if anyone is interested: The FIA are opening their rally hall of fame today at 17:30 CET. Live on their facebook page.

rhm

30th January 2019, 10:47

All jokes aside this should be a PR or a marketing persons wet dream. Don't know if the old rallying adage of "win on Sunday sell on Monday" still rings true today but what Citroen achieved over the weekend provide they make the best use of it should translate into a potentially huge sales opportunity. That sales opportunity is not just in France but right across Europe.

https://twitter.com/Ryan_Champion/status/1090228350231240704

dimviii

30th January 2019, 13:46

FIA pushing on with plans to have hybrid/electric WRC rules for '22

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/141255/fia-pushing-on-with-hybrid-wrc-rules-for-2022

AL14

30th January 2019, 14:58

FIA pushing on with plans to have hybrid/electric WRC rules for '22

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/141255/fia-pushing-on-with-hybrid-wrc-rules-for-2022

Nice, I can start checking one of my 2019 predictions.

Andre Oliveira

30th January 2019, 17:22

FIA Hall of Fame WRC: https://halloffame.fia.com/hall-of-famers

Didier Auriol
Massimo Biasion
Stig Blomqvist
Richard Burns
Marcus Grönholm
Juha Kankkunen
Sébastien Loeb
Tommi Mäkinen
Colin Mcrae
Hannu Mikkola
Sébastien Ogier
Walter Röhrl
Carlos Sainz
Timo Salonen
Petter Solberg
Ari Vatanen
Björn Waldegård

Allez Andruet

30th January 2019, 17:42

If the idea is to portrait the greatest and most accomplished legends the sport has, it's a joke of a Hall of Fame without mr. Maximum Attack.

All objections are automatically dismissed.

Fast Eddie WRC

30th January 2019, 18:27

Hall of Fame ? Is being World Rally Champion not enough of a title to bring a driver fame ?

Rally Power

30th January 2019, 18:30

FIA pushing on with plans to have hybrid/electric WRC rules for '22

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/141255/fia-pushing-on-with-hybrid-wrc-rules-for-2022

I hope they’ll use only a mild hybrid system; a more sophisticated one will make the cars even more expensive and potentially less reliable. We’re living a fantastic WRC era; it’d be a shame to see the FIA ruin it.

mknight

30th January 2019, 18:36

I hope they’ll use only a mild hybrid system; a more sophisticated one will make the cars even more expensive and potentially less reliable. We’re living a fantastic WRC era; it’d be a shame to see the FIA ruin it.

In 2017 and most of 2018 everything was positive. But to be real now you basically have only 2 manu teams fully taking part with 3rd running only 2 cars cause it's too expensive and 3rd only "renting" cars for money. So unless some changes are made to both reduce cost and increase interest from manufacturers it's likely to go downhill quite fast. Just like it did from 2004 to 2009.
- multiple teams are complaining how aero parts cost too much
- multiple manufacturers have voiced that WRC needs at minimum some hybrid system to attract them

deephouse

30th January 2019, 18:49

mknight

30th January 2019, 19:00

We will see in march how many real interest will be in World RX for electric rules. I bet that none. Here will be the same. Everyone (especially VW) is loud but when comes to real confirmation all just hide.

With current rules all teams left this year....officially teams left WRX because electric car rules were postponed by FIA.

You can wonder if the explanation is real but it's a fact that they left.

Rally Power

30th January 2019, 19:35

With current rules all teams left this year....officially teams left WRX because electric car rules were postponed by FIA.
You can wonder if the explanation is real but it's a fact that they left.

That's not true, as only Peugeot left because of eWRX delay. Ford left previously to eWRX annoucement; Audi didn't sign in the initial eWRX deadline (August '18) and left immediatly after; VW pull out after realizing they'd be the only manu team in '19 championship.

mknight

30th January 2019, 19:38

VW also complained about the rules (VW, not P. Solbergs team). Anyway that's sematics.

Point is that with the current normal engine rules the championship collapsed.

Rally Power

30th January 2019, 20:25

VW also complained about the rules (VW, not P. Solbergs team). Anyway that's sematics.
Point is that with the current normal engine rules the championship collapsed.

The main point in WRC case is to have the Hybrid label on WRC cars; to get it there’s no need to make a complete tech change (like in eWRX) or to push for expensive hi-tech systems (like in WEC); a low-cost mild hybrid system (like the current 48 volts) should be enough.

T16

30th January 2019, 20:52

If the idea is to portrait the greatest and most accomplished legends the sport has, it's a joke of a Hall of Fame without mr. Maximum Attack.

All objections are automatically dismissed.

Who is mr maximum attack?

Jarek Z

30th January 2019, 21:00

Citroen is the first manu to get 100 wins in the WRC! They’ve been leading the chart for a while (since 2011) but to get WRC win #100 at the same time they’re celebrating the brand 100th anniversary is really something. Huge congrats!

The best comment about Citroen's 100th victory in the WRC comes from Stewart Weir

They've come a long way since this... :D :D :D

https://twitter.com/sweirz/status/1090657151712968706

racerx1979

30th January 2019, 22:01

Who is mr maximum attack?

Well we also have Michèle Mouton and Henri Toivonen, Hannu Mikkola and the coolest guy of them all Ari muthafuggin Vatanen

T16

30th January 2019, 22:33

Well we also have Michèle Mouton and Henri Toivonen, Hannu Mikkola and the coolest guy of them all Ari muthafuggin Vatanen

Vatanen was included though.

AL14

30th January 2019, 23:45

Well we also have Michèle Mouton and Henri Toivonen, Hannu Mikkola and the coolest guy of them all Ari muthafuggin Vatanen

Also Munari. He doesn't deserve it less than Burns or Solberg...
And yes Markku Allen also...

steve.mandzij

31st January 2019, 04:38

Also Munari. He doesn't deserve it less than Burns or Solberg...
And yes Markku Allen also...And some recent drivers might be worthy as well. Markko Martin maybe? Or Latvala (being the winningest non-champion)or Hirvonen?

(I say this as a younger fan, of course without downplaying the legends you mentioned)

cali

31st January 2019, 04:49

Who is mr maximum attack?Are you serious??????

Googol

31st January 2019, 06:33

Latvala in any hall of fame would make it a joke, although if they include all the champions and no one else, it is a joke anyway.

bomber21

31st January 2019, 06:43

Everyone has its own opinion about who should be in that list...
That list cannot contain everyone, some should stay out.

Norm75

31st January 2019, 07:48

Who is mr maximum attack?

Markku Allen. Henri Toivenen should really have been included, probably the brightest star of his era, taken far too soon.

T16

31st January 2019, 08:04

Markku Allen. Henri Toivenen should really have been included, probably the brightest star of his era, taken far too soon.

Cheers Norm... I didn’t know much about Allen. Googled mr maximum attack last night and saw who it was.
Yeah, I agree with Mouton... she 100% should have been included and Toivenen too. Bit strange they’ve just included champions, when so many others left a mark in the sport.

AnttiL

31st January 2019, 09:08

Alen and Munari won the drivers FIA cup before it had a World Championship value.

Drivers with most wins but no championship title:

Alen 19
Latvala 18
Hirvonen 15
(the rest have considerably less wins. Neuville would be next with 9)

drivers title runner-ups without championship title:

Frequelin (1981)
Mouton (1982)
Alen (1986, 1988)
Fiorio (1989)
Delecour (1993)
Hirvonen (2008, 2009, 2011, 2012)
Latvala (2010, 2014, 2015)
Neuville (2013, 2016, 2017, 2018)

AL14

31st January 2019, 09:21

Alen and Munari won the drivers FIA cup before it had a World Championship value.

Drivers with most wins but no championship title:

Alen 19
Latvala 18
Hirvonen 15
(the rest have considerably less wins. Neuville would be next with 9)

drivers title runner-ups without championship title:

Frequelin (1981)
Mouton (1982)
Alen (1986, 1988)
Fiorio (1989)
Delecour (1993)
Hirvonen (2008, 2009, 2011)
Latvala (2010, 2014, 2015)
Neuville (2013, 2016, 2017, 2018)

FIA cup was not WC just in his name but in fact it was imho.
p.s. Hirvonen was runner up also in 2012 :)

AnttiL

31st January 2019, 09:22

FIA cup was not WC just in his name but in fact it was imho.
p.s. Hirvonen was runner up also in 2012 :)

I added in Hirvonen 2012 but I don't understand what you mean with the first statement.

AL14

31st January 2019, 09:46

I added in Hirvonen 2012 but I don't understand what you mean with the first statement.

The drivers FIA Cup was an international rally competition with the highest value. It was not called "world rally championship" but it was a world rally championship. So they should have considered Alen and Munari as champions in my opinion.

Fast Eddie WRC

31st January 2019, 11:27

Who is mr maximum attack?

Call yourself a rally fan. You should be ashamed.

T16

31st January 2019, 11:27

Call yourself a rally fan. You should be ashamed.

Why?

Rallyper

31st January 2019, 11:28

Call yourself a rally fan. You should be ashamed.

Well, we don´t know his age, do we? And for how long he´s been a fan... ;)

There are all kinds of fans on this forum, so... :)

Fast Eddie WRC

31st January 2019, 11:33

Why?

Its probably the most famous nickname in rallying, that's all.

T16

31st January 2019, 11:35

Its probably the most famous nickname in rallying, that's all.

I wasn't aware of it. I have however, heard of Allen before. Should I really be ashamed?

Fast Eddie WRC

31st January 2019, 11:45

I wasn't aware of it. I have however, heard of Allen before. Should I really be ashamed?

No you be proud to be ignorant thats fine.

T16

31st January 2019, 11:50

No you be proud to be ignorant thats fine.

Jesus Eddie, you're making yourself look like a bit of a tit TBH. Just because I Wasn't aware of someones nickname, you think I should be ashamed of myself. Hope it hasn't ruined your day.

Norm75

31st January 2019, 11:55

Call yourself a rally fan. You should be ashamed.

If rally fans really want the sport to grow and become more popular, then comments like this, and the similar one before in this thread, are not particularly helpful.

We, as fans, where possible, should educate, not humiliate.

Morte66

31st January 2019, 11:56

Norm75

31st January 2019, 12:08

I'm a rally newbie too and I'd never heard it. My first thought was "I'm a pretty big Meeke fan, but surely he hasn't earned hall of fame yet". Then I checked whether Colin McRae was on the list.

Well, I guess I'm ashamed.
Nothing to be ashamed of, if some people think you should only follow rallying if you know the complete history of it, it's there problem, not yours.

I've been a fan of rallying since I was about 5 years old, Markku was my favourite driver growing up (and yes, I am aware I spelt his name wrong earlier, but spell check on my phone decided he should be called marijuana Allen, not Markku Alen . . And yes, I know the e should have a hat on but my phone won't do it)

AnttiL

31st January 2019, 12:32

The drivers FIA Cup was an international rally competition with the highest value. It was not called "world rally championship" but it was a world rally championship. So they should have considered Alen and Munari as champions in my opinion.

It still doesn't make it a World Championship. Just as WRC2 isn't a world championship. And so weren't FIA Ladies Cup and FIA Group N Cup. But what about Kenneth Eriksson, he's a Group A World Champion from 1986?

However, I agree that Alen should have been invited, even if as the only non-champion.

Norm75

31st January 2019, 12:44

It still doesn't make it a World Championship. Just as WRC2 isn't a world championship. And so weren't FIA Ladies Cup and FIA Group N Cup. But what about Kenneth Eriksson, he's a Group A World Champion from 1986?

However, I agree that Alen should have been invited, even if as the only non-champion.

I would argue that the pre 73 drivers cup is a lot more relevant than wrc2 or 86 group a champ, as it was the pre cursor to the wdc and for drivers at the pinnacle of the sport.

AnttiL

31st January 2019, 13:00

I would argue that the pre 73 drivers cup is a lot more relevant than wrc2 or 86 group a champ, as it was the pre cursor to the wdc and for drivers at the pinnacle of the sport.
It's pre 1979 cup. Before 1973 there weren't even manufacturer's championships.

Rallying was a different sport back then. It was a competition for the best car. Teams didn't have drivers doing full WRC seasons, instead selecting the best events they could win in and the best specialist drivers for the job. Meanwhile, drivers would participate in other series and/or special events like London-Mexico in addition to doing a few WRC rallies, unlike now where it's rare if a WRC driver does an ERC event for example. No one was concentrating on getting the highest overall points because there was no proper title for it. In that sense, it was a secondary trophy. In fact, although the drivers title started in 1979, it remained in the old way for quite long with usually only 3-4 drivers doing enough WRC events to be considered title contenders. It wasn't until the WRC car era that we started having all teams and all drivers taking part in all events for a proper title fight between 10 drivers.

BigWorm

31st January 2019, 14:27

Looks like they've taken the easy way and only included world champions (same goes for their list in F1 - only champions except James Hunt for some reason apparently). Nothing wrong with that, to become champion it takes some serious talent and dedication. But take nothing away from drivers like Alen, Hirvonen and Märtin who all contributed to battles in the championship. FIA could have made the Hall of Fame much more interesting.

dupanton

31st January 2019, 14:41

BigWorm

31st January 2019, 14:54

Hunt was F1 world champion in 76 ;)

Yes but he isn't included the list strangely

EDIT: they've included him now

EstWRC

31st January 2019, 15:24

i just took a little nap and woke up with great news.

Estonian government will fund Rally Estonia with 1 million euros and this means this years Rally Estonia will be WRC candidate/test event.

Rallyper

31st January 2019, 15:43

AnttiL

31st January 2019, 16:11

With Japan and Kenya set to be added for 2020 and talks of Croatia and Poland again, it will be a tough job for Estonia. Best of luck!

Norm75

31st January 2019, 16:37

It's pre 1979 cup. Before 1973 there weren't even manufacturer's championships.

Rallying was a different sport back then. It was a competition for the best car. Teams didn't have drivers doing full WRC seasons, instead selecting the best events they could win in and the best specialist drivers for the job. Meanwhile, drivers would participate in other series and/or special events like London-Mexico in addition to doing a few WRC rallies, unlike now where it's rare if a WRC driver does an ERC event for example. No one was concentrating on getting the highest overall points because there was no proper title for it. In that sense, it was a secondary trophy. In fact, although the drivers title started in 1979, it remained in the old way for quite long with usually only 3-4 drivers doing enough WRC events to be considered title contenders. It wasn't until the WRC car era that we started having all teams and all drivers taking part in all events for a proper title fight between 10 drivers.
Even in wrc car era, it was a good five or so years before there were at least ten drivers doing the full season. Which either devalues the championship titles of the likes of sainz, kankkunen, McRae et al, or makes Alens drivers cup title just as relevant as the world champions that succeeded him.
Depends if your cup is half empty, or half full.

Rally Power

31st January 2019, 16:43

It's pre 1979 cup. Before 1973 there weren't even manufacturer's championships.

Yep, Alen and Munari were fantastic drivers but to consider them as WRC drivers champs would be a mistake. Not only because the FIA International Cup wasn’t properly named as World Championship but mostly because it also included ERC rallys and some special events, besides WRC rallys. Between those special events the most peculiar was the ‘Giro d’Italia’, a mix rally/racing event that allowed rally crews to be replaced by a racing driver on the racing circuit runs!

To use the official WRC Drivers Championship status as the main standard to choose wall of fame drivers (and codrivers) makes sense, but it’s totally fair to say that many others (some already named here) should also have a place in it. Actually a small wall in FIA headquarters (apparently only visitable by request) seems too short attending Rallysport and WRC fabulous heritage; to build a proper Rally Museum would be the right step to honour all those (drivers, codrivers, manus, organizers, etc) that helped the sport growing through time.

Yesterday ceremony highlights: https://youtu.be/pjLQBERLWR4

Tarmop

31st January 2019, 16:43

There was a news in December(?) that Ciesla is planning something "Monza Rally show" like in Estonia this summer, with all the manufactures present.
Tänak at the top, TGR operations, huge popularity of rally and new cars+ neighbours...who knows, how the winds blow...

AL14

31st January 2019, 16:50

Yep, Alen and Munari were fantastic drivers but to consider them as WRC drivers champs would be a mistake. Not only because the FIA International Cup wasn’t properly named as World Championship but mostly because it also included ERC rallys and some special events, besides WRC rallys. Between those special events the most peculiar was the ‘Giro d’Italia’, a mix rally/racing event that allowed rally crews to be replaced by a racing driver on the racing circuit runs!

To use the official WRC Drivers Championship status as the main standard to choose wall of fame drivers (and codrivers) makes sense, but it’s totally fair to say that many others (some already named here) should also have a place in it. Actually a small wall in FIA headquarters (apparently only visitable by request) seems too short attending Rallysport and WRC fabulous heritage; to build a proper Rally Museum would be the right step to honour all those (drivers, codrivers, manus, organizers, etc) that helped the sport growing through time.

Yesterday ceremony highlights: https://youtu.be/pjLQBERLWR4

It's right that we should not call them world champions but the discussion was about having them in the hall of fame and I think those 2 are not strangers in there.

Rally Power

31st January 2019, 17:08

It's right that we should not call them world champions but the discussion was about having them in the hall of fame and I think those 2 are not strangers in there.

Those 2 and many more, including the sport pioneers, pre wars and post wars rally aces and the heroes of the 60's that bring the sport into the modern age; Rally History begun long before the WRC, that's why the FIA should build a museum instead of a short wall.

Myrvold

31st January 2019, 17:21

No you be proud to be ignorant thats fine.

Being a fan doesn't mean you have to have huge knowledge of the history from before a person became a fan.

With that being said, you two seem to have an on-going beef with each other, why not just put put the respective names on the ignore list and get on with the day.

Japé

31st January 2019, 17:30

Cheers Norm... I didn’t know much about Allen. Googled mr maximum attack last night and saw who it was.

WRC all time Stage wins:

1. Loeb, Sebastien FR 915
2. Alen, Markku FI 822
3. Sainz, Carlos ES 756
4. Kankkunen, Juha FI 700
5. Mikkola, Hannu FI 654
6. Auriol, Didier FR 554
7. Gronholm, Marcus FI 542
= Vatanen, Ari FI 542
9. Ogier, Sebastien FR 539
10. Latvala, Jari-Matti FI 517
11. Blomqvist, Stig SE 486
12. McRae, Colin GB 477
13. Solberg, Petter NO 457
14. Rohrl, Walter DE 439
15. Biasion, Massimo IT 373
16. Makinen, Tommi FI 362
17.Waldegard, Bjorn SE 290
18. Burns, Richard GB 277
19. Hirvonen, Mikko FI 260
20. Salonen, Timo FI 257

Yes, rallies are different nowadays, but on the other hand juwra.com says "Stage wins before 1978 are not complete". I guess Alen had quite a few stage wins also before 1978 ;) Drivers with a lot of stage wins might have a habit to attack

GravelBen

31st January 2019, 19:14

I wasn't aware of it. I have however, heard of Allen before. Should I really be ashamed?

I've been following rallying since I was a kid and I'd never heard it until this thread either.

stefanvv

31st January 2019, 19:27

I've been following rallying since I was a kid and I'd never heard it until this thread either.

It must be some forum thing, I know this nickname only from the forum as well, don't remember any video mentioning it, but may there are.

Allez Andruet

31st January 2019, 19:59

It must be some forum thing, I know this nickname only from the forum as well, don't remember any video mentioning it, but may there are.

Trust me, it's not a forum thing. Alen was known for his always-flat-out style, which during the heyday of ridiculously long rallies in the 70's and 80's wasn't that common approach. That made Markku so popular among the rally fans worldwide, but also cost him dearly; 1000 Lakes 1986 or RAC 1987 probably being the best examples of rallies where he should have just taken it easy instead of pushing like there's no tomorrow.

It's true that the moniker wasn't used as widely during his active years as it has been afterwards. In 2001, when Markku drove Rally Finland for one last time, the text on the back of his Focus WRC read "The original maximum attack".

1716

And another reason why he's still so popular (although this only concerns the Finnish speaking rally fans) must be the wonderful interviews he gave. It's hard to put in words, but there's something very unique and charismatic in his way of being dead serious, but still with a shade of humor.

I only saw him few times in action in the early 90's, yet he's my biggest hero in rallying.

edit. Has nothing to do with anything, but actually I've seen Markku's father quite many times. He used to attend the same ice hockey games I did with my father. Ofcourse I didn't recognize him at the time, but my dad did.

AnttiL

31st January 2019, 20:00

https://www.iltalehti.fi/ralli/a/2013080217325788

Here Markku explains that in Portugal they asked how fast he is driving and with his limited English he tried to say flat out and said instead "maximum attack". I think that term also referred to Alen's capability and desire to attack right from the very beginning of the rally. In the age of long rallies, most drivers would take it easy for a day or two, watching how fast the others go and how many retire, but Markku attacked from the first kilometres.

Also if you look up Alén in Wikipedia, it's right up there, sourced from The Complete Book of the World Rally Championship by Henry Hope Frost and John Davenport, not your average forum posters.

Norm75

31st January 2019, 20:18

Also if you look up Alén in Wikipedia, it's right up there, sourced from The Complete Book of the World Rally Championship by Henry Hope Frost and John Davenport, not your average forum posters.
Fantastic book. HHF was a friend of a friend, and was tragically killed not too far from where I live.
At last year's Silverstone classic (of which said friend gets us competitors passes) there was a wall to draw motoring pictures to commemorate Henry.
I chose to draw Mr maximum attack launching over a crest in martini integrale.

T16

31st January 2019, 20:44

Fantastic book. HHF was a friend of a friend, and was tragically killed not too far from where I live.
At last year's Silverstone classic (of which said friend gets us competitors passes) there was a wall to draw motoring pictures to commemorate Henry.
I chose to draw Mr maximum attack launching over a crest in martini integrale.

Quality!... I just read the inquest the other day... so tragic. I only really paid attention to him after he passed and he seemed like a totally genuine chap.

stefanvv

31st January 2019, 20:45

@Allez Andruet & @AnttiL, useful info, thanks. I guess I don't know much of Alen, most of Group B era for me is related to AUDI, Peugeot 205 T16, S4, Rohrl and of course Toivonen, R.I.P.

er88

31st January 2019, 21:02

i just took a little nap and woke up with great news.

Estonian government will fund Rally Estonia with 1 million euros and this means this years Rally Estonia will be WRC candidate/test event.

Hope that isn't just chucking money away? There doesn't seem to be space in the wrc calendar with Kenya and Japan on the way. At least one European round is getting cut nevermind more added, and we need more tarmac.

Can understand why you're excited though and I would be too if/when Scotland ever replaces Wales ;). The stages in Estonia look incredible and the fan base is there, I'd just be massively surprised if your country gets in. But good luck :)

1st February 2019, 06:05

The stages in Estonia look incredible and the fan base is there, I'd just be massively surprised if your country gets in. But good luck :)

Rally Poland is also aiming back to the WRC and the roads are very similar to Estonia. Not sure that we will need more very fast gravel events to the calendar...

EstWRC

1st February 2019, 06:20

AnttiL

1st February 2019, 06:57

are you kidding? this is exactly what we need with only Sweden and Finland being very fast events atm. we should at least have one more, i dont care if it is Estonia or Poland as long it is fast.

And personally i would like to have one more tarmac round too.

I agree, there should be one more fast event, something to bridge the gap between the likes of Portugal, Mexico and Sardegna and the faster ones of Sweden and Finland. Right now Australia is the only one that is somewhere between, but even that is closer to Portugal's speeds for the most part.

Allez Andruet

1st February 2019, 07:27

The current spec WRC's are made for fast rallies, so yes please, bring in Rally Estonia.

N.O.T

1st February 2019, 09:42

The current spec WRC's are made for fast rallies

No, they are very customisable.

AL14

1st February 2019, 11:30

Trust me, it's not a forum thing. Alen was known for his always-flat-out style, which during the heyday of ridiculously long rallies in the 70's and 80's wasn't that common approach. That made Markku so popular among the rally fans worldwide, but also cost him dearly; 1000 Lakes 1986 or RAC 1987 probably being the best examples of rallies where he should have just taken it easy instead of pushing like there's no tomorrow.

It's true that the moniker wasn't used as widely during his active years as it has been afterwards. In 2001, when Markku drove Rally Finland for one last time, the text on the back of his Focus WRC read "The original maximum attack".

1716

And another reason why he's still so popular (although this only concerns the Finnish speaking rally fans) must be the wonderful interviews he gave. It's hard to put in words, but there's something very unique and charismatic in his way of being dead serious, but still with a shade of humor.

I only saw him few times in action in the early 90's, yet he's my biggest hero in rallying.

edit. Has nothing to do with anything, but actually I've seen Markku's father quite many times. He used to attend the same ice hockey games I did with my father. Ofcourse I didn't recognize him at the time, but my dad did.

In Italy Alen is very much loved.
There are some sentences that he said with his particular italian language that are still remembered by most of people. I didnt follow rally back then (well, I wasn't alive for a big part of his career haha) but I hear about him from time to time.
Some I can translate in english trying to translate also the "mistakes".

If tyro keep I winning race! If tyro don't keep, I like bomb into mountain!

"Fault of I, car made PUFF"

"I remember first series 037 problems gear, then change and ok. dashboard fantastik, all clear: much lights saying me when problem. green lights maximum attack, red lights going slow and kikki calling assistance."

Talking about his son debut on tarmac: "for him asphalt is first time, he slow and learn" then he look at the sky "if rain, better we go home".

And still about his son running in Sardinia after he retired:"Sardinia no trees... Anton took only!!"

I tried to give the same tone in english language, for sure it's not the same but he was a greatest driver and also a very nice person. He knew what rally was about.

Mirek

1st February 2019, 11:38

Grazie, I died laughing :D

AnttiL

1st February 2019, 12:08

Alen is the master of what we call Rally English

Japé

1st February 2019, 13:37

Alen is the master of what we call Rally English

With the FIAT history on a background, Alen probably spoked and tried to behaved more Italian way than English. Then there is other type of examples like Mikkola and Vatanen whom had good English skills. In my opinion best examples of Rally English are Rovanpera Sr. Tommi Makinen and Mika Hakkinen, of course all of them having some development during their career ;)

"Race was baad, but Carlos was good"

steve.mandzij

1st February 2019, 16:52

With the FIAT history on a background, Alen probably spoked and tried to behaved more Italian way than English. Then there is other type of examples like Mikkola and Vatanen whom had good English skills. In my opinion best examples of Rally English are Rovanpera Sr. Tommi Makinen and Mika Hakkinen, of course all of them having some development during their career ;)

"Race was baad, but Carlos was good"Tommi is veeeery fluent in rally English :D Maybe I would add gronholm to that list too.

KiwiWRCfan

1st February 2019, 17:32

Mirek

1st February 2019, 17:40

I suggest to create a special thread for that. It's not news&rumors after all.

Fast Eddie WRC

1st February 2019, 18:14

re Mr Maximum Attack. T16 you have my respect. You did not know something and asked a question to learn more about the history of rally. Disappointing how a few people responded to your question.
New fans please keep asking questions on this forum to increase your knowledge. Long term fans please respect that not everyone will possess your depth of knowledge and be willing to politely share your knowledge with newbies.

T16 is a newbie. Really ? With that name referencing the Group B Peugeot 205 ?

He has had no humility at all since joining the forum. Arrogant, contrary and argumentative with almost every post.

I thought he was a some old rally fan that thought his history made him feel entitled to be so. But now I find he isnt so knowledgable and that makes his attitude all the more ridiculous.

steve.mandzij

1st February 2019, 18:20

Allez Andruet

1st February 2019, 18:30

Come on now, just stop it. Let's move on to the news and rumours, ok?

T16

1st February 2019, 18:33

T16 is a newbie. Really ? With that name referencing the Group B Peugeot 205 ?

He has had no humility at all since joining the forum. Arrogant, contrary and argumentative with almost every post.

I thought he was a some old rally fan that thought his history made him feel entitled to be so. But now I find he isnt so knowledgable and that makes his attitude all the more ridiculous.

Ha ha Eddie... you’ve made me laugh today at least.

I knew who Marku Allen is, I just didn’t know he was nicknamed mr Maximum attack.

Honestly, do you really think it’s such a big deal?

Also, didn’t you recently say that Tidemand was one of M-Sports lead drivers, not Suninen? Nobody is perfect!

The points I have debated or whatever, I have tried to do with knowledge from what I have seen as a fan in my years watching the sport.

But now you think I am old guard because my name in here is T16?... weird.

For the record, I have a long standing connection to Peugeot and I absolutely love everything about the T16.

Peace.

T16

1st February 2019, 18:35

janvanvurpa

1st February 2019, 19:15

I knew who Marku Allen is, I just didn’t know he was nicknamed mr Maximum attack.

Honestly, do you really think it’s such a big deal?

What can you say?
I know who Alen is, I met him in December '86 grabbing dinner minutes before start ---for him----of Olympus WRC...I started 42 minutes after so I had plenty of time..he was next table over...
We joked in driving Amazon would be quicker than Gr A car..
Good humor...I liked his passion..
I knew that he made the phrase "Maximum Attack"...which you must say absolutely flat, no accent, no rising pitch---world famous in every language.
And I knew he attacked..

But I never have heard that "he was known as Mister Maximum Attack"

What I have found is you learn an awful lot on forums from real experts...
One of my favorites is this..back then---85 and 86 a huge number of ALL the people on the teams --except Peugeot --and Lancia--were English or Swedish, as well as some of the better connected journalists...which just happens to be my (sorta) native languages--both... So I got to talk to people a little different.
Back then everybody "in the business" were saying the Group B engines in rally spec were making "about 380 hp"...and nobody knows what torque...but a LOT!!!

Imagine how fascinating it was to read on forums 20-22-25 years later from people on forums everywhere from people who had never seen a Group B car, never spoken to 1 driver of GrB car or one crewmember----but they knew that "they had 550 hp"...see? I learned something, and that is always good to learn... These guys had read one short review written by some 22 year old "web journalist" and now they knew something that us idiots who were actually around at the time had been were ignorant of..And they would argue and call names and ridicule and be so smug. and contemptuous...

So its good to learn all these facts from people on forums...
Why its so good and so informative I sometimes wonder why I bothered to build things and go racing from 1967 thru 1997 when I didn't need to in order to know anything...

stefanvv

1st February 2019, 20:27

sollitt

1st February 2019, 22:55

I knew that he made the phrase "Maximum Attack"...which you must say absolutely flat, no accent, no rising pitch---world famous in every language.
And I knew he attacked..

But I never have heard that "he was known as Mister Maximum Attack"

I'm with you here John. I have been involved as an active participant in this sport since the mid 70's and an avid WRC observer.
Alen is one of my all time favorite competitors and I followed his career with interest. I have met and spoken with him on a couple of occasions. Once, in 86 I think, he even leapt up into my camper van believing it to be an official vehicle. Whilst he is certainly synonymous with the term "maximum attack" I don't believe he has ever been widely referred to as Mr. Maximum Attack.
Most of us would nevertheless have known who was being referred to however there is no justification for challenging anybody who did not.

I do absolutely agree though with the poster that any 'Hall of Fame' without Alen is not representative of our sports achievers.

Also no Paddy Hopkirk, Rauno Aaltonen, Timo Makinen, Shekha Mehta .....

It seems like a very lazy effort indeed.

Rally Power

1st February 2019, 23:38

And I knew he attacked..

Indeed! Honestly I don’t care when Alen started to be called Mr. Maximum Attack but I gladly remember seeing him in some of the 1984 Rally de Portugal stages, pushing the 037 to its limits in the attempt to beat Mikkola and the migthy Quattro. He failed, despite fighting untill Arganil dawn, but he still managed to be the most praised one by the fans!

The same fans which were always eager to tell about Alen’s epic 1978 and 1981 Portugal wins. In 78, using a 131, he spent 5 days and 627 stage kms to beat a fantastic Mikkola (then on a Escort) on the very last SS and in 81 he ended one of the initial Sintra stages in reverse, with only 3 wheels on a crashed 131; his mechanics refused to let him retire and apparently Alen couldn’t find no better way to thank them than recovering, stage after stage, all the lost time and getting the overall win!

Alen’s first ever WRC win was also taken in Portugal (1975, on a 124) and he was Portugal Rally record winner (5 in total) till 2017, when Ogier managed to match him. He often returns to our country and he’s always amazed about how the most common people still remember and show their admiration for him. That's totally deserved!

PS: lots of stuff about Alen achievements in Portugal, but this autosport.pt interview https://www.sapo.pt/noticias/motores/rali-de-portugal-a-quinta-de-markku-alen_59147b1a366e004f6defaca7 (hope Google can translate it) and this TV piece about the fans showing Alen, 25 years later, the wheel he lost in 1981 crash https://youtu.be/z9pyazNGvtA?t=20 deserve a look.

Jarek Z

2nd February 2019, 00:30

In my opinion best examples of Rally English are Rovanpera Sr. Tommi Makinen and Mika Hakkinen, of course all of them having some development during their career ;)

Do you mean this? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvOmFFu830Q

Japé

2nd February 2019, 08:16

Do you mean this? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvOmFFu830Q

In Hakkinen case, it is understood that his health (post Adelaide 1995 accident) had some effect as well, since his other ear went basically deaf, but it was not widely public information until after his F1 career. Many times he probably either did not hear the questions or was not entirely sure what was asked, but was too embarrassed to show it repeatedly.

Sorry about being off-topic.

Jarek Z

2nd February 2019, 11:27

In Hakkinen case, it is understood that his health (post Adelaide 1995 accident) had some effect as well, since his other ear went basically deaf, but it was not widely public information until after his F1 career. Many times he probably either did not hear the questions or was not entirely sure what was asked, but was too embarrassed to show it repeatedly.

Sorry about being off-topic.

No need to be sorry for such an interesting post. I was still following Formula 1 when Hakkinen was racing, but never heard about the "ear accident".

By the way - I was surprised to see Mika visiting Poland in November last year on the occasion of the 100th anniversary of Polish Independence. It was even shown in the evening news on the national TV. The tall guy next to Mika is Polish prime minister Morawiecki:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adw6pvEEyd4

Jarek Z

2nd February 2019, 11:31

Has Alen's son definitely finished his rally career?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6hgs-Ax0jo

Maui J.

2nd February 2019, 19:11

I've been following rallying since I was a kid and I'd never heard it until this thread either.

I'm with you Ben. I've followed rallying since I accidentally stumbled upon Rally NZ accidentally in 1977 as a kid. I was blown away with the speed and cars going sideways. I was hooked, but I've never heard of Mr Maximum Attack either.

Andre Oliveira

4th February 2019, 13:26

http://revistascratch.com/wrc/noticia/los-world-rally-cars-pueden-volver-al-segmento-c-en-2022-48634

tommeke_B

4th February 2019, 13:31

http://revistascratch.com/wrc/noticia/los-world-rally-cars-pueden-volver-al-segmento-c-en-2022-48634
Actually the Evo 6 Gr.A and the Subaru S5 WRC had a shorter wheelbase than the Yaris WRC, shortest current WRC car. Having larger cars in rallying makes no sense, they're not agile enough.

deephouse

4th February 2019, 13:42

If all will agree they could bring tractors as long as it will be good promotion. So no matter what type of cars we will see in future. My predicition lies on SUV-s.

Tarmop

4th February 2019, 14:07

Hardly, SUVs are passing trend probably, especially in countries with limits to city centers etc. Or atleast SUVs as they are now...hothatches/estates with higher clearence is another story.

Gregor-y

4th February 2019, 19:49

T16 is a newbie. Really ? With that name referencing the Group B Peugeot 205 ?

Maybe it was a 405 T16? In case the Impreza Turbo was too small.

GigiGalliNo1

5th February 2019, 13:33

An SUV like the MINI Countryman?

deephouse

5th February 2019, 18:36

No I mean regular, look how much models brands introduce every year. There is like whole series of SUV-s. What we have back in the old days when only american Ford and Suzuki have lots of different models. Now almost every brand have 3 or more. Do you have to say that for hothatches, when there is one or maybe two. And even the second one is practicaly estate.

Tarmop

5th February 2019, 19:00

There are still quite many hothatches in different sizes from many manuf. Same goes with the SUV, easy to make one...platforms are shared with their hothatch siblings for example. That doesn`t mean that they are so hugely popular and can be boosted with rallying. In Western EU, especially in citys/towns with oldtowns, smaller cars are popular...SUVs mostly just substitute or could be called large MPVs and estates, for those who want to put their kids, dogs and lifestyle equipment in it and have a practical need for it... you can`t sell Yaris as a family car to a family with 3 kids and a dog, on the otherhand small SUVs are not such a huge trend...the clearence is not really utilitarian at all, nothing you can`t get from lets say, ix20, Leon X-Perience etc. And lets not forget, that most new cars are bought by companies, country institutes and taxi companies and they mostly go for money per km.

First googled answer for the most selling cars in EU 2018 and hothatches own it pretty much, with only Tiguan and Qasqhai in 5. and 6. place, with around 50% less sold than Golf`s:
https://focus2move.com/europe-best-selling-cars/

Mirek

5th February 2019, 20:31

An SUV like the MINI Countryman?

One total failure was not enough?

Actually two total failures (SX4)...

No I mean regular, look how much models brands introduce every year. There is like whole series of SUV-s. What we have back in the old days when only american Ford and Suzuki have lots of different models. Now almost every brand have 3 or more. Do you have to say that for hothatches, when there is one or maybe two. And even the second one is practicaly estate.

Why should anyone use SUV, i.e. a thing which has terribly large frontal area, thus horrendous aerodynamics, high center of gravity and a few hundred kilos overweight? How do You think anyone could force manufacturers to use completely non-suitable base cars and not something much better suitable for the task?

And come on, nearly all major manufacturers offer some sort of hot hatch.

pantealex

5th February 2019, 20:51

Some are actually trying SUV-type rally cars:

Fiat 500X (FIA R4)

Toyota CH-R (AP-4)

but for me rally cars should look like "sport models" not SUV/MPV/VAN

denkimi

5th February 2019, 21:33

T16 is a newbie. Really ? With that name referencing the Group B Peugeot 205 ?

the 208 r5 was also called T16, just like the 2013 pikes peak car.

Jarek Z

6th February 2019, 11:17

Guys, it is often said that rallying is not a popular sport. But maybe something is changing? Have you noticed that some of the drivers are turning into movie stars? Have you seen the last movies featuring Martins Sesks, Oliver Solberg and Ott Tanak? :)

Jarek Z

6th February 2019, 11:18

"Champion at Nineteen" starring Martins Sesks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_pDfS06J8M

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/static.fiaerc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/44554892724_1d74ca2c5b_o-1200x800.jpg

Jarek Z

6th February 2019, 11:24

"Born to drive" starring Oliver Solberg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyHofd1KQyI

http://www.autoklub.pl/media/201902/130615-oli.jpg

Jarek Z

6th February 2019, 11:25

"Ott Tanak The Movie" starring Ott Tanak!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=3UPhX57OgR4

http://www.autoklub.pl/media/201902/130632-tanak.jpg

Tarmop

6th February 2019, 11:31

Tänak`s movie will be out 11.04 and that he is a god for local media, is also quite known...sometimes too much, but on a wider scale...sure, all live stats show that.

Jarek Z

6th February 2019, 11:54

Tänak`s movie will be out 11.04 and that he is a god for local media, is also quite known...sometimes too much, but on a wider scale...sure, all live stats show that.

That trailer portrays him nearly as a serial killer ;)

Allez Andruet

6th February 2019, 13:00

That trailer portrays him nearly as a serial killer ;)

Indeed. At first I was stunned why someone had made a documentary about Ilpo Larha, but then I saw Yaris WRC and thought that ok, maybe it's about a rally driver.

Jokes aside, seems like a topnotch film. Hopefully it'll be available in Finland as well.

AnttiL

6th February 2019, 13:10

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/141350/more-twocountry-rallies-could-ettle-calendar

Now Todt wants more multi-country rallies...

PLuto

6th February 2019, 13:36

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/141350/more-twocountry-rallies-could-ettle-calendar

Now Todt wants more multi-country rallies...

To say the truth, I cannot imagine how this multi-country rallies can work...

tommeke_B

6th February 2019, 13:38

Time for Todt to retire.

pantealex

6th February 2019, 15:47

To say the truth, I cannot imagine how this multi-country rallies can work...

Sweden-Norway works well, most other combinations probably not.

NickRally

6th February 2019, 18:31

And to be cheeky, what about Australia-New Zealand combination! And continuing dreaming, maybe this idea will make them increase the rally competitive distance ;)

racerx1979

6th February 2019, 18:38

And to be cheeky, what about Australia-New Zealand combination! And continuing dreaming, maybe this idea will make them increase the rally competitive distance ;)

Too far apart lol.. unlike Norway Sweden

Mirek

6th February 2019, 18:38

And to be cheeky, what about Australia-New Zealand combination!

Definititely better idea than Turkish-Greek rally ;)

Andre Oliveira

6th February 2019, 19:03

Galiza (Spain) - Portugal
Sanremo - Monte-Carlo

GravelBen

6th February 2019, 19:06

And to be cheeky, what about Australia-New Zealand combination!

Only 2000km between them! Its like Rally Ireland-Poland, but with an ocean in between instead of other countries.

NickRally

6th February 2019, 19:35

Too far apart lol.. unlike Norway Sweden

I thought we live in the jet age - no two points on Earth are too far apart:)!

Mirek

6th February 2019, 19:35

Galiza (Spain) - Portugal
Sanremo - Monte-Carlo

The obvious issue with these cross-border events are mainly legislative ones. It's hell of bureaucracy to go through even for an event placed in one department of one country. Every border, even internal department one makes it harder and harder.

There aren't many cross-border events but there are some. In WRC Rally Sweden-Norway, in the past Poland-Lithuania. In other series Rally Ypres with stages in Belgium and France. There are likely more but it's still very very rare.

Edit: Technically Rallye Monte Carlo is also a cross-border event of Monaco and France.

NickRally

6th February 2019, 19:38

Only 2000km between them! Its like Rally Ireland-Poland, but with an ocean in between instead of other countries.

Let's not dwell on the challenges, but think about the positives :)

stefanvv

6th February 2019, 20:02

Only 2000km between them! Its like Rally Ireland-Poland, but with an ocean in between instead of other countries.

Ireland-Poland is also overseas, no?

Tauri_J

6th February 2019, 20:16

Estonia - Latvia would be really good

doubled1978

6th February 2019, 20:40

Wales - England - Scotland....3 countries right there....wait, didn’t we used to do that?

AnttiL

6th February 2019, 20:42

Estonia - Latvia would be really good

Rally Estonia is already situated quite close to the border, and behind the border Rally Alüksne wouldn't be far either.

Franky

6th February 2019, 21:14

Estonia - Latvia would be really good

Think bigger. Poland-Lithuania-Latvia-Estonia-Finland

PLuto

6th February 2019, 21:55

But you should think also about business issues. To organise a WRC event, you need to have big budget, support of local government or also country government. If we take for example Estonia and Latvia - which country should be first in the name of the rally? Where should be main base of the rally? How it will be with money from sponsors - latvian sponsors will go through latvian organisers company and estonian through estonian organisers company? Or both will go only through one company? And will be latvian organiser (and also government) interested in supporting event which main base is Estonia and all the money goes through estonian company? And there should be lot of similar issues...

GravelBen

6th February 2019, 22:25

Ireland-Poland is also overseas, no?

Good point! Only little bits of sea though.

the sniper

6th February 2019, 23:19

Definititely better idea than Turkish-Greek rally ;)

Well that'd be one way to get Cyprus back on the calendar...

I can only really see this working well with Monte Carlo, working on the basis that you'd want to drop the French and Italian rounds from the calendar in order to let new countries in. Given the event's tradition of historically having starting points around Europe, you could get away with something similar to what the cycling Grand Tours have with the starts and opening days being held abroad. So with the Monte you could at least easily include the Sanremo/Italian stages before moving to the usual French stages. If the French can't be stripped of their own round they could be influenced to move their round back to the North East, then you can include Belgium, Germany or even Switzerland if there's interest. All have hosted starts of the Tour de France...

With France, Italy and Germany looking like being in the most peril, I imagine it's with this in mind that Todt has spoken. He's not talking to us, I imagine he's trying to influence the thinking of organisers in those countries. It's the easiest way to reduce three rallies into at least two anyway.

dodge33cymru

6th February 2019, 23:35

Makes a lot more sense to cross some borders than, oh I don't know, do a stage in Buenos Aires or Mexico City on Thursday night. The '1 day in Norway' works well for Sweden IMO and probably helps organisers offset costs.

Rally Power

6th February 2019, 23:49

If countries join forces to organize much larger events, like World or Euro football cups, why can’t they also do it in the WRC?

The WRC is spreading worldwide and it seems we’ll get fewer events in Europe in the future, despite a growing offer. Honestly, Todt proposal sounds better than loosing important events for the series (probably on a ‘who’s paying more’ selection) or going back to rotation (some time ago the promoter suggested 3 years in/out, which seems too long).

Maybe 2 countries events are a sort of utopia and they’ll never happen (at least on a larger scale than the Sweden/Norway case), but it’d be interesting to have a proper try.

Duvel

7th February 2019, 05:12

I like the idea actually (where possible).
Monte, Italy San remo stages and than french Alps.
Spain and Portugal mayby?
Sweden -Norway is good.
Australia - New zealand would be great, but wil be to expensive i guess.
Germany - Belgium they where close to Belgian borther a few years ago, crossing the border is Neuville land, East belgian region.
Greece - Cyprus
Ireland - GB

GravelBen

7th February 2019, 05:49

Australia's best rally stages are all in New Zealand anyway, thats why so many Aussies come here to rally.

racerx1979

7th February 2019, 06:26

Australia's best rally stages are all in New Zealand anyway, thats why so many Aussies come here to rally.

Australia is as close as you can get to paradise... and NZ is paradise :).

This is coming from someone currently in Victoria Aus.

tc10a

7th February 2019, 08:10

I like the idea actually (where possible).
Greece - Cyprus

And how should that work? Make a 3-4 day break between stages to get the cars on a ship those approx. 1000km over the mediterranean sea from Athens to Cyprus?

AnttiL

7th February 2019, 08:46

Yeah, most of the suggestions have been too abstract as well. You should start with an existing rally that is already close to the border like Rally Sweden is close to Norway's border. Meanwhile for example Rally Finland is so deep inside Finland that it could never co-operate with any country with the current regulations unless it would be moved to another city, and I just don't see that happening.

denkimi

7th February 2019, 09:34

Germany - Belgium they where close to Belgian borther a few years ago, crossing the border is Neuville land, East belgian region.

That could work.

The question is why would we want that? What can we gain by doing that?

AnttiL

7th February 2019, 09:37

Todt's main idea must have been to keep more of the classic European countries involved but with a smaller number of rallies, not to add in new European countries with no background in rallying

Mirek

7th February 2019, 13:12

... and the ultimate variant is The Rally of European Union with the center in Brussels (or perhaps Paris instead)...

AnttiL

7th February 2019, 13:16

... and the ultimate variant is The Rally of European Union with the center in Brussels (or perhaps Paris instead)...

And then the Brexit rally with the old RAC route :cool:

sete

7th February 2019, 14:03

yes,but the organizers will try to cancel the Brexit rally at very last moment :-D

Jarek Z

7th February 2019, 16:25

... and the ultimate variant is The Rally of European Union with the center in Brussels (or perhaps Paris instead)...

... with Jean-Claude Juncker as the honorary head of the rally :)

https://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/juncker-farage-kiss.jpg?fit=512%2C320&ssl=1

dimviii

7th February 2019, 18:34

rip Dr Robert Hubbard,inventor of HANS.
https://twitter.com/JeanTodt/status/1093446476573888512

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2047908808597452&id=100830113305341

Norm75

7th February 2019, 20:21

... with Jean-Claude Juncker as the honorary head of the rally :)

https://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/juncker-farage-kiss.jpg?fit=512%2C320&ssl=1

Don't let that twat on the right anywhere near it or there won't be any rallies in EU countries!

Norm75

7th February 2019, 20:31

1722

For our European friends that don't know who the gentleman on the right is, I give you Nigel farage

N.O.T

7th February 2019, 20:33

1722

For our European friends that don't know who the gentleman on the right is, I give you Nigel farage

You spelt "piece of shit" wrong...

Norm75

7th February 2019, 20:37

You spelt "piece of shit" wrong...

Well yes, but click on the picture and read the banner behind him.
Spells it out perfectly.

Jarek Z

7th February 2019, 21:24

He is the guy that placed a bet on Brexit and won:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asUCSWmgSGk

Gregor-y

8th February 2019, 13:58

yes,but the organizers will try to cancel the Brexit rally at very last moment :-D

Considering the final stage involves driving over a cliff I wouldn't blame them. ;)

Rallyper

8th February 2019, 14:17

Sorry guys, but we are kind of very OT right now... ;)

Entertainer

8th February 2019, 14:50

Sorry guys, but we are kind of very OT right now... ;)

Hehe very much so, but I have to say I am enjoying it. 👍
Brexit is big in Swedish newspapers, and I guess in the rest of Europe/te World too.

nafpaktos

8th February 2019, 17:47

Pathetic for Citroen Racing

Daniel Elena

It's my father's birthday today. He would have been 84 years old

I don't forget you... unlike a famous weekly on motor sport that traced the glory of Citroën Racing by forgetting us! You realize dad ��

Gregor-y

8th February 2019, 19:56

Yowza. That's a bridge burned.

EightGear

9th February 2019, 13:14

nafpaktos

11th February 2019, 15:40

sorry, my bad

Rally Hokkaido

12th February 2019, 10:05

I read on NZ Otago Rally website that Hayden Paddon won't do NZRC like last year - max. two or three rounds only, plus one or two APRC rounds in the AP4+ machine. Also, he will compete in European round or rounds of World RALLYX.

12th February 2019, 15:36

WRC back on terrestrial tv in UK: https://f1broadcasting.co/2019/02/12/wrc-strikes-deal-to-remain-on-channel-5-network/

Fast Eddie WRC

12th February 2019, 15:54

WRC back on terrestrial tv in UK: https://f1broadcasting.co/2019/02/12/wrc-strikes-deal-to-remain-on-channel-5-network/

Not even on Channel 5 but on Spike... where precisely no-one will catch it and become a fan. :(

dimviii

12th February 2019, 18:04

Chris Ingram

@ChrisIngramGB

Hopefully we will have news soon on 2019 ��

Myrvold

12th February 2019, 18:24

Also, he will compete in European round or rounds of World RALLYX.

Nope. He will do Global Rallycross Europe in a spec-car.

AndyRAC

13th February 2019, 08:36

Not even on Channel 5 but on Spike... where precisely no-one will catch it and become a fan. :(

To use a much used quote " It's better than nothing". With the WRC's standing in the UK, it's as good as one could expect; "beggars can't be choosers".

Luijbregts

14th February 2019, 17:07

Great news. Oliver Solberg will join Subary USA for the whole rally championship in 2019. A Solberg back driving for Subaru!!

Source: https://www.oliversolberg.com/solbergjoinssubaru

KKS

14th February 2019, 17:42

how about his 17yrs and driving without driver licence?

mousti

14th February 2019, 17:55

Just getting his license there? If I Remember Well it's from 16 years old possible. Or do it like Kalle in Italy ..

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONEPLUS A6013 met Tapatalk

mknight

14th February 2019, 18:25

Luijbregts

14th February 2019, 19:51

In the US you are allowed to drive from 16. He has a latvian license. Probably a dispensation on Rally routes or co-driver drives between stages. My guess however is that they will find a solution that he can get his US drivers license. My guess as well is that he will have in hist contract that he can drive his Polo R5 in Latvia for that championship, but I am not sure about this. I do not know what his contract includes or excludes. But a great opportunity for him to start with a factory driver contract at 17 !!

Jarek Z

14th February 2019, 22:32

Not sure how good idea that is, the experience from there and with that car is not directly related to driving R5 or WRC on other rounds.

And the level of competition over there is much lower than in Europe.
But good luck to him!

Gregor-y

15th February 2019, 00:42

15/16 is the age for getting a learning permit in most states, and then maybe a few months extra for a license exam that may have some limits (usually a midnight curfew) again depending on the state. Any European license would probably be accepted, too.

Not sure how the Subaru will work as training for R5 or WRC, but it will have a lot of power if nothing else. As for competition there's Pastrana and Block who if nothing else know the roads. Dave Higgins will still be the man to beat.

Left field challenger would be Pitor Fatela in a Polish Fiesta kit car. He's done well for the last few years despite crashing his Subaru (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgAO--tram4) at 100 Acre Wood in 2016.

I'll find out in a few weeks.

KKS

17th February 2019, 12:10

Next rally for Loeb - Corsica. According interview to swedish radio
/Didn't hear that info before/

dimviii

18th February 2019, 19:12

Allez Andruet

18th February 2019, 19:44

Rallirinki / Teemu
‏ @HartusvuoriWRC

In his interview for @ksmlfi, Marcus Grönholm in his role as @HuttunenRacing manager says that Jari Huttunen is still linked to Hyundai, but there are no drives promised for this season.

I still think Huttunen might get the call for Finland. Loeb doesn't want to do it and it's probably better if Sordo doesn't do it either.

mknight

18th February 2019, 19:46

Questions is if he wants to. Finland has always been the weakest rally for the car with not a single podium.

His 2018 campaign with (likely) bad car, has probably hurt his career quite a bit.

AnttiL

18th February 2019, 19:59

Next rally for Loeb - Corsica. According interview to swedish radio
/Didn't hear that info before/

It was mentioned earlier

EDIT: For example here https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/21149

Allez Andruet

18th February 2019, 20:02

Questions is if he wants to. Finland has always been the weakest rally for the car with not a single podium.

His 2018 campaign with (likely) bad car, has probably hurt his career quite a bit.

The whole 2018 would have been forgotten already if it wasn't for that silly mistake on the penultimate stage in Sweden.

Huttunen turning that kind of chance down? Come on...

janvanvurpa

18th February 2019, 20:08

Not sure how good idea that is, the experience from there and with that car is not directly related to driving R5 or WRC on other rounds.

On the other hand if he drives in Europe in Polo R5 and then gets paid by Subaru to drive few US rounds, why not.

I have a feeling the main idea is to pick up a LOT of easy 2nds and maybe some wins to pad his CV for when he grows up and wants to do serious rally..

Higgins is good..But he's also a LOT older and shall we say politely "comfortable" with no "real" competition... 2nd place level guys are merely rich guys..what you guys call "gentleman drivers"
3 place level guys are a series of nice friendly guys who are on the next page of the calender in SS times..

The excitement here is 100% artificial, since finally, after 30 years, people are asking "why are we supposed to get excited about a kid with absolute ZERO connection to US or North American Rally hopping right in at the absolute top?"

So the breathless oh-I-think-I-just-squirted-in-my-jeans press releases seem more of the normal over-hyped US promotion...

mknight

18th February 2019, 20:16

The whole 2018 would have been forgotten already if it wasn't for that silly mistake on the penultimate stage in Sweden.

Huttunen turning that kind of chance down? Come on...

Well if they come and say "you can do Finland in WRC for free" with no commitments he will prbly say yes. At the at the same time he can do some rounds with Fabia to show how he is relative to others.
Btw. any vid of the crash? Haven't seen any and there is no onboard on wrc+.

It's probably rather short list for the 3rd car there, Loeb if he wants (not sure), Sordo very unlikely as he doesn't like it and never did good there, Paddon said no.... maybe Breen. Østberg would be ideal, but he will likely try all he can go with C3.

21st February 2019, 14:09

Wasn't sure where to put this, hopefully not a repost..

Kalle vs Harri: https://www.skoda-storyboard.com/en/lifestyle/sports/motorsport/battle-of-the-generations-kalle-versus-harri-rovanpera/

Fast Eddie WRC

21st February 2019, 18:42

Craig Breen interviewed yesterday said he was 99.9% sure of a 2019 seat and had two options.

But when Abu Dhabi pulled sponsorship at Citroen he expected to go to Hyundai. But unexpectedly they had decided to sign Loeb.

He said Citroen going with only two cars is strange but they clearly prioritised the WDC with Ogier.

Finally he joked he would bet a lot of money he would drive in WRC at some point this year.

mknight

21st February 2019, 20:24

That sounds like the options were Citroen and Hyundai.
Kind of strange tbh replacing Paddon with Breen, doesn't make much sense to me.

TypeR

22nd February 2019, 09:49

would like to see Breen in Fiesta ;) clearly there's no room in Hyundai and I doubt Citroen puts out 3rd car, unless you drown them in money.

Rallyper

22nd February 2019, 10:58

Well, then, let´s wait and see who pays most money, Tidemand or Breen... ;)

deephouse

22nd February 2019, 14:05

Well, then, let´s wait and see who pays most money, Tidemand or Breen... ;)

Or none. Why they need to pay for a drive and then when thry want to show something no one notice that, or next time expect that they will also pay...

Rallyper

22nd February 2019, 14:13

Money counts...

mknight

22nd February 2019, 14:25

... pay for a drive and then when thry want to show something no one notice that, or next time expect that they will also pay...

The dilemma of paying drivers in one sentence.

doubled1978

22nd February 2019, 14:39

The dilemma of paying drivers in one sentence.

Exactly, and this generation of WRC car is worse because they are so expensive to run. With all the aero pieces etc, you could easily smash your budget to pieces without actually crashing the car, just knocking bits off....so if the budget is limited, or the result is already lost after the first day, then I would imagine the natural inclination will be to not push to the maximum...and by not pushing what have you proved?

GravelBen

22nd February 2019, 20:51

Even R5 is expensive if you have to pay for a drive. Paddon was asked why he isn't just doing WRC2 this year and replied about needing something like a million dollars to pay for it.

BleAivano

23rd February 2019, 13:59

A short interview with Walter Rörhl https://www.goodwood.com/grrc/columnists/mystery-monday/2016/7/mystery-monday-walter-rohrl--rallying-in-my-era-was-endurance-for-humans-and-cars/

mknight

23rd February 2019, 14:30

Well not sure his idea about difs is good.

On the other hand as we discussed before I am for limiting the number of possible settings, which in turn would limit the need/usefulness of testing and reduce costs.

It was mentioned recently that VW had 20 different dampers for Polo and Hyundai now has 50 to pick from. Both numbers sound crazy to me.

Mirek

23rd February 2019, 17:21

AMSS

23rd February 2019, 18:21

So many years and failed attempts have passed and yet still someone believes that it's possible to reduce the championship cost by technical regulations.

I tell you one thing. The championship cost is a mirror of its own value. The better the championship is the more the teams can spend and the worse it is the less they spend. It's that simple and the technical regulations have very little to do with it.

Could not agree more, those who have the money will always find areas to spend it on for achieving better results, regardless of whatever limitations FIA or anyone else can come up with

Fast Eddie WRC

24th February 2019, 16:40

denkimi

24th February 2019, 17:22

So many years and failed attempts have passed and yet still someone believes that it's possible to reduce the championship cost by technical regulations.

I tell you one thing. The championship cost is a mirror of its own value. The better the championship is the more the teams can spend and the worse it is the less they spend. It's that simple and the technical regulations have very little to do with it.
You can't reduce the amount of money people want to spend, but you can reduce the amount of money that is needed to build a competitive car and race it.

But most of the easy solutions have already been implemented. Outlawing exotic materials, limitations on testing and tyres, no mobile service, ...

If msport can do it with a limited budget, others can do it too. They just choose not to.

Mirek

24th February 2019, 17:54

That's the problem with R5... cheap enough for the businessman or his kid but not cheap enough for the young prospect.

Most national rally entries now have a couple of fast driver's and a load of guys just having fun as a hobby.

R4 anyone ?

R5 is something completely different because it is not the top level of the sport. Whatever else than WRC works in a different way because it's not a battle of gigantic global companies which can spend whatever is worth it. In fact in case of R5 the rules really managed to successfully limit the cost and moreover to keep it for many years (in this case it's a huge achievement of FIA).

I'd say that R5 works perfectly. There are tons of them everywhere including UK and it's more and more of them every year. Motorsport has always been about money and will always be. You can't create a situation in this sport where money plays no role. If You want to see where people with zero money can get on the top level follow football. It works there.

R4 will likely never work in Europe. For being a competitor for R5 they are too slow and for being a healthy second level they are too expensive.

Rally Power

24th February 2019, 23:04

R4 will likely never work in Europe. For being a competitor for R5 they are too slow and for being a healthy second level they are too expensive.

Pryce proved in Granada that R4 cars can be fast and they're actually cheaper than a R5 (to buy and, especially, to mantain). Some guys may be tempted to use them if they are allowed to run on a separated class from R5's. Besides, they also can motivate big dealers and even importers of brands with no rally cars currently homologated.

R4 has potencial, even in Europe, but somehow Oreca doesn't seem eager to promote it: despite being homologated since June, the only R4 entry (Granada) was due to their spanish partner, ASM Team...

Mirek

24th February 2019, 23:12

Wishful thinking. We can speak about it again next year by this time.

Of course they are cheaper but they are not cheaper enough. Old R5 are even cheaper and nobody buys them. Guess why? Because they are slow. That's the simple reason. Why do you think everybody buys Polo R5 like crazy no matter what it costs? Because it's fast car and that's what motorsport is about. Not about saving 10% or 20% for having a handicap right from the start line.

Rally Power

25th February 2019, 00:19

Tarmop

25th February 2019, 08:47

You need R4 classes in top levels, to create somekind of a market and use for them. For nationals it`s too expensive, those who have the money, go for a R5 or even WRC, those with less use A`s/N`s, modify them to protos etc or drive less and do it with a (rental) R5 ...and drive faster and fight for overall places.

Mirek

25th February 2019, 08:56

You’re missing a point: if R4’s run on a separated class from R5’s, they don’t need to be as fast as those! Guys with a lower budget will prefer to fight for a R4 class win than struggling to stand up in the middle of 15 or 20 R5’s.

You should look here http://www.rmcmotorsport.es/ to see how the Spanish tuner RMC is promoting N5 (similar to R4) in Spain. N5 is based on Argentina’s Maxi Rally (actually RMC imports a large number of parts from Baratec) and despite being slower than a R5 and having only national homologation it’s selling pretty well, once they’re cheaper and run on a separated class from R5’s; besides RMC is doing a proper job promoting them (there’s even a national N5 Cup).

Everybody recognizes that there’s room for a lower 4wd class and it’d be much more interesting to see it spreading as an international FIA category, in R4 form, than having each country trying their own national proto class, like it’s now starting to happen.

No, I don't miss anything. If they are intended for their own lower class than they must be way cheaper than they are. What you say is that R4 is basically an overpriced gr.N replacement. But that alone is a receipt for disaster. The reason is simple - the amount of money available very much depends on where you are on the overall standings. Good luck with finding sponsors who can fund you let's say 80% of R5 budget but don't care about overall results.

Allez Andruet

25th February 2019, 09:38

The reason is simple - the amount of money available very much depends on where you are on the overall standings. Good luck with finding sponsors who can fund you let's say 80% of R5 budget but don't care about overall results.

Exaggerating: so the R4 guys will take all the sponsorship money away from R2 drivers?

dupanton

25th February 2019, 10:02

Exaggerating: so the R4 guys will take all the sponsorship money away from R2 drivers?

No No No, you don't understand.
The point is, that you will need a lot of budget to fight for "only" a class win. Overall you can't do much. It's easier to find a bit more money if you can challenge for overall win.
Fe, let's say you need 100.000 for a program with an R5 car and 75.000 for the same program with an R4. It will be easier to find that 100.000 as you challenge for the overall win. You get much more return than for a class win.

That's the reason R3 is dead. Too expensive and you only fight for class win. R4 will be even more expensive, so I think Mirek is right.

Rally Power

25th February 2019, 11:39

No, I don't miss anything. If they are intended for their own lower class than they must be way cheaper than they are. What you say is that R4 is basically an overpriced gr.N replacement. But that alone is a receipt for disaster. The reason is simple - the amount of money available very much depends on where you are on the overall standings. Good luck with finding sponsors who can fund you let's say 80% of R5 budget but don't care about overall results.

The price difference isn’t just 20%, it’s about 30% (Oreca made a discount over the kit initial price) and that’s a lot of money. A R4 can be bought for 160k while a R5 costs over 230k (I bet a Polo costs much more…); running costs difference is even bigger as R4 engine is almost stock and once the cars are built locally there’s no need for expensive rebuilds on the manu official tuners, like in R5. Besides, we shouldn’t mix R4/R5 target costumers; R5 will always be used by top national and international drivers and teams, while R4 purpose is to give amateurs a change to replace their aging N4 cars and also provide R2 young drivers a more affordable option to keep their careers moving forwards.

There’s a market for R4, both in national and international series, but the FIA has made a terrible choice launching R4 through a single supplier; after all the delays and the kit initial price, Oreca is still failing to promote R4 in a proper way. That’s a shame.

AnttiL

25th February 2019, 11:45

No No No, you don't understand.
The point is, that you will need a lot of budget to fight for "only" a class win. Overall you can't do much. It's easier to find a bit more money if you can challenge for overall win.
Fe, let's say you need 100.000 for a program with an R5 car and 75.000 for the same program with an R4. It will be easier to find that 100.000 as you challenge for the overall win. You get much more return than for a class win.

In Finland this is different, we don't have overall points or championships, but four equal championships for different types of cars. Even when the rallies were televisioned on a national channel, all the classes were shown equally from home-built FWD Civics to the Fabia R5's.

Mirek

25th February 2019, 12:00

The price difference isn’t just 20%, it’s about 30% (Oreca made a discount over the kit initial price) and that’s a lot of money. A R4 can be bought for 160k while a R5 costs over 230k (I bet a Polo costs much more…); running costs difference is even bigger as R4 engine is almost stock and once the cars are built locally there’s no need for expensive rebuilds on the manu official tuners, like in R5. Besides, we shouldn’t mix R4/R5 target costumers; R5 will always be used by top national and international drivers and teams, while R4 purpose is to give amateurs a change to replace their aging N4 cars and also provide R2 young drivers a more affordable option to keep their careers moving forwards.

There’s a market for R4, both in national and international series, but the FIA has made a terrible choice launching R4 through a single supplier; after all the delays and the kit initial price, Oreca is still failing to promote R4 in a proper way. That’s a shame.

Polo can not cost more than other R5 cars because of the rules.

Complete R4 car shall cost between 180-190k (per Oreca).

We can absolutely mix R4 and R5 target customers because they are in the same cost group. Look at the teams competing today and tell me who can buy R4 right now? Only the teams running R5 car can, no teams with gr.N, R3 or R2 cars can do that without massive raise of budget.

Those 30% may be a lot in absolute numbers but as Anton said it's likely easier to find extra 30% for a project in the top level than 30% less for something so obscure as a certain class (that's how most of potential sponsors naturally see it - because they go after exposure). In other words it's for sure easier to find money for second hand R5 than for new R4. And there are tons of used R5 everywhere.

R4 is a good idea for overseas markets with high import duties for R5 cars. The potential market in Europe is very small, it will likely end similar to R-GT. You will meet them here and there but they will never become anything important.

But maybe I am wrong. We'll see.

br21

25th February 2019, 13:55

If someone has good R4 for sale for 160k let me know, I will buy!
Top spec Polo costs around 230k, VW can't charge more as it's (well) controlled by the FIA.

Allez Andruet

25th February 2019, 14:01

Fe, let's say you need 100.000 for a program with an R5 car and 75.000 for the same program with an R4. It will be easier to find that 100.000 as you challenge for the overall win. You get much more return than for a class win.
Do you really? Sincerely asking, not saying you'd be right or wrong. Not that I would have a strong opinion of my own on the subject, but I assume that these days the exposure driver/car/sponsor gets, is somewhat dependent on self-marketing and using all available channels to increase brand awareness (or whatever the sponsor is seeking from the sponsorship deal, usually sponsorship - on the level we're talking about here - is about brand awareness). I.e. it's less and less about having the picture of the overall winner in a newspaper and more about being able to win (or to fight for the victory). And in that sense I doubt that the 100k would be "easier" to get for R5 campaign than the 75k for R4 campaign. Assuming that these two classes are equal competition wise.

dupanton

25th February 2019, 14:19

Do you really? Sincerely asking, not saying you'd be right or wrong. Not that I would have a strong opinion of my own on the subject, but I assume that these days the exposure driver/car/sponsor gets, is somewhat dependent on self-marketing and using all available channels to increase brand awareness (or whatever the sponsor is seeking from the sponsorship deal, usually sponsorship - on the level we're talking about here - is about brand awareness). I.e. it's less and less about having the picture of the overall winner in a newspaper and more about being able to win (or to fight for the victory). And in that sense I doubt that the 100k would be "easier" to get for R5 campaign than the 75k for R4 campaign. Assuming that these two classes are equal competition wise.

For the Belgian Championship, there is a television report of each round, sunday afternoon, on the public television channel. They basically only showed the R5 cars. 2 or 3 images of the Junior winner and 3 other cars who won their classes for a short flash.
I'm sure the success of the Belgian championship is due to the television coverage.

If I see who can get a budget together for a top car now, I'm sure it's "relatively" easy. It's still a lot of money off course.

tommeke_B

25th February 2019, 14:22

Rally culture is different from country to country. In Belgium most drivers don't care much about social media, they don't have any own capital to drive an R5 car, and still they manage to bring the money together for it. I think the picture of overall winner in newspaper and on tv still counts, very much! Also in Belgium many (if not most) of the spectators are interested in the top crews only, and go from stage to stage following the top 15-20 drivers. ;)

Mirek

25th February 2019, 14:31

For the Belgian Championship, there is a television report of each round, sunday afternoon, on the public television channel. They basically only showed the R5 cars. 2 or 3 images of the Junior winner and 3 other cars who won their classes for a short flash.
I'm sure the success of the Belgian championship is due to the television coverage.

If I see who can get a budget together for a top car now, I'm sure it's "relatively" easy. It's still a lot of money off course.

Here as well the media exposure of gr.N drivers is close to non existent. Juniors in R2 cars have much more media exposure than them and that is still only a fraction of what R5 drivers get. Also on the rally servers and forums you can see that people are interested in the overall standings and in the juniors and basically nothing else. Same goes to ERC2. Nobody cares about it.

Rally Power

25th February 2019, 14:37

Top spec Polo costs around 230k, VW can't charge more as it's (well) controlled by the FIA.

I actually remember reading an interview of an i20 R5 buyer saying a full spec new car was costing 250k (at the start of 2018).

Complete R4 car shall cost between 180-190k (per Oreca).

That was Oreca initial estimation, before the kit price reduction. A finished car costs now around 160k; you can confirm it with ASM here https://r4rallycars.com/

Those 30% may be a lot in absolute numbers but as Anton said it's likely easier to find extra 30% for a project in the top level than 30% less for something so obscure as a certain class (that's how most of potential sponsors naturally see it - because they go after exposure). In other words it's for sure easier to find money for second hand R5 than for new R4. And there are tons of used R5 everywhere.

According to your logic of only using top machines, what’s the point of running an old 208 or a first spec used Fiesta? Actually, as not everybody is aiming for the top 10 and there’s no alternative to N4, some amateurs are tempted to get a used R5, but repair or rebuilding costs may soon turn their R5 adventure into a nightmare (I know a few cases).

Honestly I can’t understand why so many people here are against a new category that could bring more drivers and even new brands to the sport. I see R4 as a needed complement to the current rally classes, not as a threat to the existing categories.

Unfortunately, without a better clarification of the rules by the FIA or the local ASN’s and a proper promotion from Oreca and their partners R4 may fail, as it seems hard to get new costumers in the current uncertainty; people won’t probably spent 160k for a car without having more clues about its future.

dimviii

25th February 2019, 14:45

According to your logic

Honestly I can’t understand why so many people here are against a new category that could bring more drivers and even new brands to the sport. I see R4 as a needed complement to the current rally classes, not as a threat to the existing categories.

.

mate its not his logic,its the reality.
We are not against,how could be to be against?,but its not going to work.
Costs are very close to the r5 category
there is no room for 2 different very close performance classes at most countries.
so top drivers will go for r5=no interesting for r4 class for drivers,and spectators sponsors etc

Mirek

25th February 2019, 14:56

Rallyper

25th February 2019, 14:58

Rally Power

25th February 2019, 15:15

mate its not his logic,its the reality.
We are not against,how could be to be against?,but its not going to work.
Costs are very close to the r5 category
there is no room for 2 different very close performance classes at most countries.
so top drivers will go for r5=no interesting for r4 class for drivers,and spectators sponsors etc

I've read here many times that there was no point on runing older machines against the most recent ones. Why suddenly used R5's make total sense?

I agree that R4 may fail, but not for having close costs to R5, as those aren't so close as people are trying to suggest here.

Sadly, Oreca seems more interested in promoting their Le Mans racing protos than R4 rally cars and private R4 tuners are now a bit on their own, while the FIA, as usual, is washing their hands of it. Anyway, fingers still crossed for R4!

denkimi

25th February 2019, 16:45

Young drivers grow in R2 class. R5 will be the step, just as Dimviii says.

On a national level they can grow in old N4 cars...

To me the problem is to have new drivers come in to the sport.

Simple one make cups in R1 class should be much more high-lighted.
Even r2 is way too expensive for many starting drivers.
The fia should indeed create and promote a controlled one make cup with cars that cost less than 25.000€. With as many standard parts as possible and sealed engines and gearboxes.

R1 cars have a good price, but have way too less power to be attractive. What we need is something like the twingo r1, but with 180 or 200 horsepower instead of 130.

Mirek

25th February 2019, 16:59

R1 cars have a good price, but have way too less power to be attractive. What we need is something like the twingo r1, but with 180 or 200 horsepower instead of 130.

Why? The best starter car for me is the Opel Adam Cup which is in fact de-tuned R2 with stock 140 Hp engine and it absolutely works as Huttunen or Bergkvist show.

Why it works? Because it's easy car to drive and in the same time very close to the R2 (same base car, same gearbox etc.), i.e. it's very easy to step up from the cup car to the R2. The fact that it's using stock engine is the reason why it's cheap.

Rallyper

25th February 2019, 17:39

Why? The best starter car for me is the Opel Adam Cup which is in fact de-tuned R2 with stock 140 Hp engine and it absolutely works as Huttunen or Bergkvist show.

Why it works? Because it's easy car to drive and in the same time very close to the R2 (same base car, same gearbox etc.), i.e. it's very easy to step up from the cup car to the R2. The fact that it's using stock engine is the reason why it's cheap.

Yes, Adam surely good. But I´m talking on national level, not international or European level. Juniors/beginners always starts in their home country. It´s on national level there should be R1 cars or like in Sweden Group E/F. Everyone starts somewhere. But surely not even in an Adam Cup car. Costs for Adam? Not under 30000 Euros I guess ...

GravelBen

25th February 2019, 18:29

And it's actually the same story like with R-GT. People also believed that it would work based on the very same arguments. It will be fun to drive, cheaper than R5 to run etc. Is it fun to drive? Yes. Is it cheaper than R5 to run? Yes. Does it work? No. Why? Because it's not competitive enough to justify its price.

Being uncompetitive is really just down to FIA choosing to cripple it with regulations to stop it challenging R5 though isn't it... so saying R5 is better because RGT isn't competitive is just circular reasoning. R5 is favoured because its faster and its faster because its favoured.

Tarmop

25th February 2019, 18:30

R1 is also quite expensive i bet... Older cars, built buy oneself in order to get the hang of it. In many countries even a roadcar can do the trick. There are also cup cars, that are cheap to build and maintain...not the best solutions however, but again, for a first car, why not.
Logan cup for example, if it still exists, cost around 15k i believe, with a a new car from the dealership.

janvanvurpa

25th February 2019, 19:31

. Motorsport has always been about money and will always be.

Big flat strong statements invite questions. A) always about money? B) why is the word "sport" in the word? Motorsport

You can't create a situation in this sport where money plays no role.

I think American conservatives who think that all discussion is 7th Grade Debate club would say that is a False Red Straw Herring...Nobody has suggested that there needs to be a situation where money plays no role.

Some people might be suggesting that its the role of the various ASNs ---who represent to overwhelming majority of people doing rally as a sport to try and find ways to moderate the role of sheer unlimited expenditure of money as being THE decisive factor is deciding results...so as to retain some element of sport.

If You want to see where people with zero money can get on the top level follow football. It works there.

at least in football you can be fairly certain that whoever wins was "the best" team/people/person...That day.

R4 will likely never work in Europe. For being a competitor for R5 they are too slow and for being a healthy second level they are too expensive.

Yes, that's true...

dimviii

25th February 2019, 19:56

I've read here many times that there was no point on runing older machines against the most recent ones. Why suddenly used R5's make total sense?

makes total sense vs an R4 car due to same +- costs.

another problem we havent mention if i remember correct, is that if you are for example at Spain,Italy,Portugal,Finland,GB,France and running a R4 car,you havent got a chance/car at yours country wrc round, to compare/be competetive with wrc2 drivers.
Another reason is the much less money will cost this car due to less buy demand worldwide.
Another reason is if these cars have some developments ''problems'' are these builders capable to solve the problems?
The last one dont take it as a small ''problem'' We have seen various such cases from wrc level teams.

stefanvv

25th February 2019, 19:59

pantealex

25th February 2019, 20:23

In Finland R4 is same class (SM2) as NR4 (Lancer, Impreza)
but as we all know
0 entries

I really hoped for some cars.

Riku Tahko promised MINI R4 for 2nd round, 3rd round is next weekend and still no sign of MINI R4...

dimviii

25th February 2019, 20:27

Mirek

25th February 2019, 21:36

Yes, Adam surely good. But I´m talking on national level, not international or European level. Juniors/beginners always starts in their home country. It´s on national level there should be R1 cars or like in Sweden Group E/F. Everyone starts somewhere. But surely not even in an Adam Cup car. Costs for Adam? Not under 30000 Euros I guess ...

Adam Cup is national car and very popular in many national championships as a perfect starter level. It's not internationally homologated. In fact it even can not be because it doesn't have FIA fuel tank.

Mirek

25th February 2019, 21:39

Being uncompetitive is really just down to FIA choosing to cripple it with regulations to stop it challenging R5 though isn't it... so saying R5 is better because RGT isn't competitive is just circular reasoning. R5 is favoured because its faster and its faster because its favoured.

No. Of course you can give it larger restrictor but you can give that to R5 as well. So let's play your game. Let's add more and more air to the engine. Which car will last longer? R4 or R5? R5 of course. So it's not a circular argument. The cars are set to be not only at certain performance level but also on a certain reliability level. The R4 will not be cheap at all if you will rebuild it after every rally because some genius found that with 5 mm larger restrictor it's faster than R5.

Couldn't agree more. Current technology level is not enough for the restrictions over RGT class.

Even unrestricted GT cars are slower than R5 in 90% of occasions. And these unrestricted half-carbon supercup-based cars are not that cheap you know...

Mirek

25th February 2019, 21:47

Big flat strong statements invite questions. A) always about money? B) why is the word "sport" in the word? Motorsport

I think American conservatives who think that all discussion is 7th Grade Debate club would say that is a False Red Straw Herring...Nobody has suggested that there needs to be a situation where money plays no role.

Some people might be suggesting that its the role of the various ASNs ---who represent to overwhelming majority of people doing rally as a sport to try and find ways to moderate the role of sheer unlimited expenditure of money as being THE decisive factor is deciding results...so as to retain some element of sport.

Well, I am from a country which once used to be called Czechoslovak Socialistic Republic. We used to have this rallysport for everybody here for decades. It worked to some extend. It was really very very cheap. The only issue was that this didn't apply for the top level. Everytime someone appeared who was able to bring himself a used powerful western car and won or a Škoda works team thought that it would be fun to win also at home. So we were still in the same situation like today with one difference. Guess in which period more local drivers made it on the international scene? Yes, today. Not in those days when the sport was cheap but the advance lead to nowhere.

Of course it was always about money. And it was the most about money at the very beginning of our sport when only the most rich people in the world had some cars. That's why it's called rallye after all.

GravelBen

25th February 2019, 22:30

No. Of course you can give it larger restrictor but you can give that to R5 as well. So let's play your game. Let's add more and more air to the engine. Which car will last longer? R4 or R5? R5 of course. So it's not a circular argument. The cars are set to be not only at certain performance level but also on a certain reliability level. The R4 will not be cheap at all if you will rebuild it after every rally because some genius found that with 5 mm larger restrictor it's faster than R5.

I wasn't talking about R4 (we have AP4 and it is working well, still not cheap but cheaper than R5 and with more car variety), I was talking about RGT.

R5 cars are running what, >100hp more than the production cars they are based on? Along with totally different drivetrain etc. While some RGT cars are forced to run >100hp less than the production cars despite being heavier than R5 and only 2wd.

If R5 cars are really so much better then you shouldn't need to castrate a 911 GT3 to beat it.

Mirek

25th February 2019, 22:40

I wasn't talking about R4 (we have AP4 and it is working well, still not cheap but cheaper than R5 and with more car variety), I was talking about RGT.

R5 cars are running what, >100hp more than the production cars they are based on? Along with totally different drivetrain etc. While some RGT cars are forced to run >100hp less than the production cars despite being heavier than R5 and only 2wd.

If R5 cars are really so much better then you shouldn't need to castrate a 911 GT3 to beat it.

We had here maybe the best ever rally-taylored Porsche of all times with a multiple champion behind the steering wheel. The car had no restrictor. Had 150 Hp more than R5, used carbon parts from the circuit cars, had longer suspension travel and had the shortest ever Porsche sequential gearbox (top speed 210 km/h). It wasn't faster than the R5 cars with comparable drivers and it wasn't cheap for sure (also wasn't reliable). The only occasion when these extreme Porsches were faster than R5 were certain Spanish asphalt events when dry. Otherwise you can find more or less non restricted Porsches in many championships and nowhere they fight with top R5 cars (France, Belgium for example).

Though I admit that it ws great fun to watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wck5qccy8c

stefanvv

25th February 2019, 22:53

Even unrestricted GT cars are slower than R5 in 90% of occasions. And these unrestricted half-carbon supercup-based cars are not that cheap you know...

You killed everything childish in me. Let me enjoy it a little bit.

EDIT: AUDI already showed us 35+ years ago 4WD cars are just faster than 2WD cars, I'm aware of that. We don't need to prove it anymore, don't You agree;)

denkimi

26th February 2019, 05:08

We have had abbring here in a 650 bhp porsche gt3, and he was quite a bit slower than the fastest r5 cars.
He was still faster than half of the r5 cars tho.

https://www.ewrc-results.com/results/44578-tac-rally-2018/?s=174004

racerx1979

26th February 2019, 09:02

650 HP GT3?? GT3's do not make that kind of power. Unless it was turbocharged GT2?

mousti

26th February 2019, 09:36

jbmarcus21

26th February 2019, 10:09

Big rear wing is back on C3WRC during last week for Rally Mexico Test Days ► http://bit.ly/2ExLafB

mknight

26th February 2019, 18:05

The new front is just as important imo. Keeps the car balanced.
+ the Toyota-style mini-wings

EstWRC

26th February 2019, 18:53

i guess they all have updates for Mexico, like always.

but the C3 looks monstrous

er88

26th February 2019, 19:18

C3 has been a bit behind Aero-wise for a while, so clearly an area they have targeted

denkimi

26th February 2019, 19:58

650 HP GT3?? GT3's do not make that kind of power. Unless it was turbocharged GT2?
I didn't put it on the dyno, but that's what they told me.
And i have not much trouble believing it. They make 520 hp stock, so i don't see why they would not be able to tune them to over 600hp.

Remember that its not a detuned rgt, its a uptuned national proto. You should be see it live to believe it.

dimviii

26th February 2019, 20:01

gt3 isnot a turbocharged car,so a bit difficult to extract 80 bhp more from an already pushed atmo engine.

racerx1979

26th February 2019, 21:04

I didn't put it on the dyno, but that's what they told me.
And i have not much trouble believing it. They make 520 hp stock, so i don't see why they would not be able to tune them to over 600hp.

Remember that its not a detuned rgt, its a uptuned national proto. You should be see it live to believe it.

A new 991 GT3 makes 520 hp NA from a 4.0 liter engine. Nobody has been able to make more then 550 using add ons to a new 991 motor. If they are making 650 on an atmospheric engine they would be the first in the world to extract so much power, but honestly it would be nearly impossible.

The one Abbring was driving has a 3.8 which is making around 450 hp. If they're running a turbo motor from a GT2 then 600-700hp is no problem, but that would not make sense for a detuned RGT.

mousti

27th February 2019, 06:32