[WRC] News & Rumours 2019

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Martin Holmes was on a recent podcast and I lost count of the number of times he answered 'I dont know'.

I'm afraid he sounded like he's past it.

[sollitt]

Martin Holmes was past it even when he was with it.

[Myrvold]

And if that's the logic, how in the world did the sport came through 1997 alive?


Or 2016. Three teams with three cars, Citroens doing one-offs here and there.

The advantage back in the 90's were what one was used to, and a healthy number of privateers.

In 2016 you also had privateers that could join in.

Not so much these days.

[AnttiL]

The advantage back in the 90's were what one was used to, and a healthy number of privateers.

In 2016 you also had privateers that could join in.

Not so much these days.

http://juwra.com/2016_result_compilation.html

what is the best privateer result in 2016? Ligato and Prokop finishing 7th? That's as high as the best WRC2 drivers can do these days as well. Once you're the next fastest car after the slowest works WRC, it doesn't matter much if you're in a WRC or R5 car.

http://juwra.com/1997_result_compilation.html

In 1997 there was even more private Group A and WRC cars, but rarely they were faster than the works cars. On a quick look Uwe Nittel was the only works driver that got beaten by privateers, or Auriol in the still troublesome Toyota Corolla WRC.

[Allez Andruet]

[url]Once you're the next fastest car after the slowest works WRC, it doesn't matter much if you're in a WRC or R5 car.
Exactly. It wouldn't make the sport any better (or worse for that matter) if we had 10 Al-Qassimis and Serderidises motoring around the stages with latest-spec WRCs. There's so much more to take into account than only the number of top class entries.

[deephouse]

Exactly. It wouldn't make the sport any better (or worse for that matter) if we had 10 Al-Qassimis and Serderidises motoring around the stages with latest-spec WRCs. There's so much more to take into account than only the number of top class entries.

At least all works teams could run all 3 cars. If Citroen will win the titles then it's matter of time when Hyundai and Toyota will cut off their 3rd cars. Then two more seats will be lost...

[AnttiL]

Remember that Toyota and Citroen ran good parts of their 2017 seasons with just two cars. Citroen had first DS3’s as third car and often Al-Qassimi as third driver. Although Citroen and Hyundai did run four cars in one rally, plus Østberg and Suninen brought some competitive private entries.

[Allez Andruet]

At least all works teams could run all 3 cars. If Citroen will win the titles then it's matter of time when Hyundai and Toyota will cut off their 3rd cars. Then two more seats will be lost...

Oh yes, there's no denying that.

[deephouse]

Remember that Toyota and Citroen ran good parts of their 2017 seasons with just two cars. Citroen had first DS3’s as third car and often Al-Qassimi as third driver. Although Citroen and Hyundai did run four cars in one rally, plus Østberg and Suninen brought some competitive private entries.

True, it's understandable because new rules comes and they haven't had ready that much cars in time, but after what a half of a year they start doing with just two beacuse it's too expensive. It would be different if few seasons passed already. Really hope that all teams stay comited and will no reduce their involvement.

[jbmarcus21]

After two days (Monday-Tuesday) with Teemu Suninen, it's now over for M-Sport test days #MonteCarlo2019 during this week ► http://bit.ly/2EqWmfh

[T16]

Exactly. It wouldn't make the sport any better (or worse for that matter) if we had 10 Al-Qassimis and Serderidises motoring around the stages with latest-spec WRCs. There's so much more to take into account than only the number of top class entries.

I would rather see 10 Al-Qassimis in 2017 machinery, than 20 Rovenperas (as good as he is) in an almost silent R5, any day of the week.

[Barreis]

I would rather see 10 Al-Qassimis in 2017 machinery, than 20 Rovenperas (as good as he is) in an almost silent R5, any day of the week.

me not

[stefanvv]

I would rather see 10 Al-Qassimis in 2017 machinery, than 20 Rovenperas (as good as he is) in an almost silent R5, any day of the week.

Errrrm, no.

[Tarmop]

WRC is also quite quiet, when driven 30%... not to mention speed and action.

[stefanvv]

WRC is also quite quite, when driven 30%... not to mention speed and action.

It's also sad to see such a waste of resource.

[Allez Andruet]

I would rather see 10 Al-Qassimis in 2017 machinery, than 20 Rovenperas (as good as he is) in an almost silent R5, any day of the week.

Eh... good for you.

[T16]

Do you mind me asking - the guys that replied to me above (Barrels / StefanVV / Tarmop / Allez Andruet) - have you all seen both 2017/18 WRC cars and R5 live on a stage?

[Allez Andruet]

Do you mind me asking - the guys that replied to me above (Barrels / StefanVV / Tarmop / Allez Andruet) - have you all seen both 2017/18 WRC cars and R5 live on a stage?

No, I don't mind at all. To give you a short answer: yes, I have.

Fortunately I've been lucky enough to have witnessed all the noteworthy rally cars from the late 80's onwards. Even the group B monsters, although not on a rally stage, but in rallycross and in what we call rallysprint here in Finland.

[stefanvv]

Do you mind me asking - the guys that replied to me above (Barrels / StefanVV / Tarmop / Allez Andruet) - have you all seen both 2017/18 WRC cars and R5 live on a stage?

I've seen plenty of rally cars last 30+ years. I can assure You the car doesn't drive itself, it's the driver who makes the difference, no matter what class it's in.

[the sniper]

Do you mind me asking - the guys that replied to me above (Barrels / StefanVV / Tarmop / Allez Andruet) - have you all seen both 2017/18 WRC cars and R5 live on a stage?

I was going to ask the same of you to be honest. Are you mainly just spectating on straights or hairpins? I've seen Al-Qassimi on Rally GB last year and Rally Finland this year. On GB he appeared a bit 'meh', with the stop start nature you still get something out of the acceleration of the car, but in Finland he looked particularly uninteresting compared to many of the R5s, it was very apparent that he was just cruising with very little commitment being shown.

[able1]

Qassimi has a role to play in wrc , he is the "average joe " a benchmark of sorts. Makes Neuville Ogier and Tanak skill more visible.

[T16]

I've seen plenty of rally cars last 30+ years. I can assure You the car doesn't drive itself, it's the driver who makes the difference, no matter what class it's in.

So, have you seen both the new WRC cars and R5 live on a stage?... you didn’t make your answer that clear.

Sorry, but for me I just much prefer the top cars. Even with someone like Al-Qassimmi driving it.

I like the old, normally aspirated stuff... anything that makes a noise.

[T16]

I was going to ask the same of you to be honest. Are you mainly just spectating on straights or hairpins? I've seen Al-Qassimi on Rally GB last year and Rally Finland this year. On GB he appeared a bit 'meh', with the stop start nature you still get something out of the acceleration of the car, but in Finland he looked particularly uninteresting compared to many of the R5s, it was very apparent that he was just cruising with very little commitment being shown.

Not at all, I spend a lot of time researching lfor high speed corners before I go.
Don’t mind a straight, as long as it has a fast corner just at the end (which I can see).
I hate hairpins and I detest doghnuts!

[AnttiL]

I like the old, normally aspirated stuff... anything that makes a noise.

Then you need to come to Finland to see Ilmo Lario's BMW M3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5bsB9c-OAY

I have also seen WRC2017 and R5 as well as a variety of older factory cars live on stage and I think R5 stands well in spectacularity. Much better than Group N as a support series.

But one thing about the privateers annoys me is that competition-wise, they are in no man's land. There's usually only one privateer driving their own pace with no competition to the works cars. Maybe they would be more competitive in an R5? This was the case of Henning Solberg this year. Even in Østberg's Fiesta WRC, he couldn't beat the WRC2 top drivers, but in Turkey he was the best-positioned (maybe not fastest) R5.

EDIT: in terms of noise, the 208 T16 R5 is probably the best of its class, but competition-wise it's among the worst.

[Tarmop]

Do you mind me asking - the guys that replied to me above (Barrels / StefanVV / Tarmop / Allez Andruet) - have you all seen both 2017/18 WRC cars and R5 live on a stage?

All from the current spec. Fiesta WRC several times. And they are all quiet cars when driven with no angst.

[tomhlord]

After two days (Monday-Tuesday) with Teemu Suninen, it's now over for M-Sport test days #MonteCarlo2019 during this week ► http://bit.ly/2EqWmfh

A shame to see only one driver testing for M-Sport.

[AnttiL]

A shame to see only one driver testing for M-Sport.

I don't think they have more contracted drivers at the moment

[tomhlord]

I don't think they have more contracted drivers at the moment

Sigh - such a shame :(

[racerx1979]

We have not seen Mikkelsen or Paddon testing either obviously. I think Mikkelsen to MSport should be a no brainier for Malcolm. He can do well if the car is set up for him.

**edit** I stand corrected.. Mikkelsen did in fact test. Thanks guys!

[Lead]

We have not seen Mikkelsen or Paddon testing either obviously. I think Mikkelsen to MSport should be a no brainier for Malcolm. He can do well if the car is set up for him.

Mikkelsen tested for Monte.

[BobJones]

We have not seen Mikkelsen or Paddon testing either obviously. I think Mikkelsen to MSport should be a no brainier for Malcolm. He can do well if the car is set up for him.

Just going to leave this here.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJ7e9vLN04

[racerx1979]

Just going to leave this here.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJ7e9vLN04

Ahhh...I will now take my head out of the sand!

[deephouse]

How many times Hyundai needs to announce they have UNCHANGED crew for Monte... Neuville, MIKKELSEN, Sordo. He have a contract and he will be in Hyundai for another year. The question is (if Loeb is really signed for the squad) if Paddon will stay (despite Hyundai is the only offer), what he will be driving, is it WRC, or old WRC or R5. I think that R5 and WRC2 Pro is really right place at the moment and he could well promote their product and challenge Skodas or even win the title straight away.

[Allez Andruet]

I think that R5 and WRC2 Pro is really right place at the moment and he could well promote their product and challenge Skodas or even win the title straight away.
Skoda seems to be light years ahead of Hyundai when it comes to R5 machinery. Not saying he couldn't do a terrific job there, but Paddon surely would have his hands full vs. the Skoda squad.

[mknight]

I wonder what effect this will have for Loeb vs Ogier popularity in France.

For Hyundai it's only positive, for Mikkelsen especially as Loeb will certainly have leverage to introduce changes to the car on tarmac and his style is much close to Mikkelsen (and Ogier) than how Neuville is driving on tarmac these days. Better to possibly miss a few rounds if the car gets changed than drive as last WRC with no changes in sight on tarmac.

[AnttiL]

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2019_wrc_sporting_regulations_12122018.pdf

Sporting Regulations 2019 are published.

[GravelBen]

I wonder what effect this will have for Loeb vs Ogier popularity in France.

For Hyundai it's only positive, for Mikkelsen especially as Loeb will certainly have leverage to introduce changes to the car on tarmac and his style is much close to Mikkelsen (and Ogier) than how Neuville is driving on tarmac these days. Better to possibly miss a few rounds if the car gets changed than drive as last WRC with no changes in sight on tarmac.

Or worse for Mikkelsen as another team-mate outperforms him...

[pantealex]

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2019_wrc_sporting_regulations_12122018.pdf

Sporting Regulations 2019 are published.

Please, read those, there are some changes for 2019

[GravelBen]

I can't be bothered reading 107 pages tonight, I'll wait for someone else to summarise the interesting bits.

[pantealex]

I can't be bothered reading 107 pages tonight, I'll wait for someone else to summarise the interesting bits.

That´s good enough.

Many people here don´t know rules for sport they follow...
and they often ask "stupid" questions.

[jonkka]

Commenting on the low-point of the WRC history.

In my view, 1997 hasn't been the lowest, there were three manufacturers involved with full time schedule (Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru) with Toyota entering selected rallies as fourth. In 1996 and 1995 we didn't have Toyota in so it was just three manufacturers.

But... Following Subaru withdrawal after 2008 season we had only two (2!!) manufacturers involved, albeit with junior and satellite teams. So for seasons 2009 - 2010 it was just Citroen and Ford. Factoring in Mini's minuscule (pun intended) involvement in 2011-2012 could extend this period further. And with level of Citroen's domination, it effectively was single-make series. That is what I call the low point in WRC history.

[AnttiL]

Commenting on the low-point of the WRC history.

In my view, 1997 hasn't been the lowest, there were three manufacturers involved with full time schedule (Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru) with Toyota entering selected rallies as fourth. In 1996 and 1995 we didn't have Toyota in so it was just three manufacturers.

True, but 1995-1996 the teams often entered three cars. And although Toyota was disqualified in 1995, the spectators still got to watch their three cars as well. However, in 1997 with only one exception (Subaru in RAC) the teams always entered just two cars.

[Hartusvuori]

Commenting on the low-point of the WRC history.

In my view, 1997 hasn't been the lowest, there were three manufacturers involved with full time schedule (Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru) with Toyota entering selected rallies as fourth. In 1996 and 1995 we didn't have Toyota in so it was just three manufacturers.

But... Following Subaru withdrawal after 2008 season we had only two (2!!) manufacturers involved, albeit with junior and satellite teams. So for seasons 2009 - 2010 it was just Citroen and Ford. Factoring in Mini's minuscule (pun intended) involvement in 2011-2012 could extend this period further. And with level of Citroen's domination, it effectively was single-make series. That is what I call the low point in WRC history.

I could agree with you, but still we have to remember in 2009 the championship title was decided by a single point. 2010 was more Citroen and Loeb & Ogier & Sordo single-make series, yet even then there were 4 different winners. Still, 2010 was more of a low point than 2009 in my opinion. Spectator wise, 2010 introduced a lot of S2000 cars, so it compensated. Oh well.

[jonkka]

If the number of entries is the chosen way to quantify the series' quality or health, then 2009 is the absolute low point. That season there were only 695 entries across all the 12 events of the season, down from 1063 entries of the previous season (admittedly, with 15 events).

[AnttiL]

How about a this kind of index: the number of main class factory entries divided by the amount of rallies in a season?

[Rallyper]

Please, read those, there are some changes for 2019

So did you print it all out? ;)

I´m too lazy to find out changes. Could you give us a hint? :)

[AnttiL]

https://rallysportmag.com/exclusive-interview-fia-rally-director-yves-matton/

Seems like an interesting interview behind the paywall


EXCLUSIVE: FIA Rally Director, @Yves_Matton, spoke exclusively to @RallyHolmes about the future of the @OfficialWRC, and of major changes coming to the sport, including a new ‘Rally 3’ category, more events outside Europe, and a new ‘Pyramid’ system.

[Allez Andruet]

https://rallysportmag.com/exclusive-interview-fia-rally-director-yves-matton/

Seems like an interesting interview behind the paywall

"Rally 3", "Pyramid system" :confused:

[ruesluporp]

So did you print it all out? ;)

I´m too lazy to find out changes. Could you give us a hint? :)

Main changes are:

- Art 8: New FIA WRC 2 Pro Championship (WRC 2 for manufacturers)

- Art 13.1.2: The total distance of the special stages shall be between 300 km and 350 km (between 300 and 500 km in 2018 and before)

- Art 17.1: P1 drivers may request a specific number provided that the application is endorsed by the FIA and the Promoter. Number 1 may only be chosen by the World Champion driver of the previous season. Requested numbers may not be greater than 99.

- Art 17.2: Competition numbers between 21 and 40 for WRC 2 Pro competitors and between 41 and 70 for WRC 2 competitors shall be allocated rally by rally, according to the provisional classification of the Championships concerned. Greater numbers may be allocated if required.

- Art 20.1.5: On a road section that is a public road and at the start of a stage, a competition car may only be driven on four freely rotating wheels and tyres. Any car not complying with this article will be considered as retired as per WRC Art. 46. An additional penalty may be imposed by the stewards.

- Art 45.2: P1 drivers re-starting on Saturday and/or Sunday under WRC Art. 46, shall on all subsequent days start as a merged group before the other P1 drivers in the reverse order of their position in the classification.

- Art 49.2.2: The schedule for each car in the service park is as follows: 40 minutes between two groups of stages (30 minutes in the past)

- Art 66.1.1: On a permanent testing site proposed by the Manufacturer before its first rally of the year and notified to the FIA. The area of the permanent testing site shall be within a maximum radius of 5 km (free in the past)

That's all, folks!

[AL14]

So if Breen and Paddon go out, Meeke and Loeb will be back in and no new young drivers are driving WRC cars, this year will have a pretty higher average age than latest years.

[RS]

So, have you seen both the new WRC cars and R5 live on a stage?... you didn’t make your answer that clear.

Sorry, but for me I just much prefer the top cars. Even with someone like Al-Qassimmi driving it.

I like the old, normally aspirated stuff... anything that makes a noise.

New Fabia sounds much louder and more aggressive on the testing videos, still no WRCar but hopefully a step forward.

[able1]

So if Breen and Paddon go out, Meeke and Loeb will be back in and no new young drivers are driving WRC cars, this year will have a pretty higher average age than latest years.

will be a lot higher Loeb 44 and Meeke 40 , wrc need Rovanpera to drag it down agan

[swanny]

I'm just happy there are still some older than me!

[pantealex]

Main changes are:

- Art 8: New FIA WRC 2 Pro Championship (WRC 2 for manufacturers)

- Art 13.1.2: The total distance of the special stages shall be between 300 km and 350 km (between 300 and 500 km in 2018 and before)

- Art 17.1: P1 drivers may request a specific number provided that the application is endorsed by the FIA and the Promoter. Number 1 may only be chosen by the World Champion driver of the previous season. Requested numbers may not be greater than 99.

- Art 17.2: Competition numbers between 21 and 40 for WRC 2 Pro competitors and between 41 and 70 for WRC 2 competitors shall be allocated rally by rally, according to the provisional classification of the Championships concerned. Greater numbers may be allocated if required.

- Art 20.1.5: On a road section that is a public road and at the start of a stage, a competition car may only be driven on four freely rotating wheels and tyres. Any car not complying with this article will be considered as retired as per WRC Art. 46. An additional penalty may be imposed by the stewards.

- Art 45.2: P1 drivers re-starting on Saturday and/or Sunday under WRC Art. 46, shall on all subsequent days start as a merged group before the other P1 drivers in the reverse order of their position in the classification.

- Art 49.2.2: The schedule for each car in the service park is as follows: 40 minutes between two groups of stages (30 minutes in the past)

- Art 66.1.1: On a permanent testing site proposed by the Manufacturer before its first rally of the year and notified to the FIA. The area of the permanent testing site shall be within a maximum radius of 5 km (free in the past)

That's all, folks!

Other notifications, some new, some as before

4.2 Only R5 allowed in WRC2 and PRO (no S2000, R4 or N)

8.2.1 Manufacturers Registration in the WRC 2 PRO Championships is set at €150,000

8.2.3 WRC 2 Pro Manufacturer may not enter more than two (2) cars in each championship rally

8.4.2 All 14 results will be taken into account when drawing up the final classification of the WRC2 PRO Manufacturers Championship. 8 best scores for WRC2 PRO drivers

11.6.1 For sections of a rally run entirely on asphalt, one route note car may be used for each driver entered with a World Rally car or eligible to score points in the WRC 2 Pro Championship.

60.3 ALL P2P AND P2 DRIVERS
ALL DRIVERS ENTERED WITH AN R5 CAR AND WHO HAVE BEEN ENTERED AS P2P OR P2 DRIVERS DURING THE CURRENT YEAR
ANY OTHER DRIVERS ENTERED WITH AN R5 CAR AND DESIGNATED BY THE FIA + All WRC cars
Tyres must be supplied by an FIA-nominated tyre company. (Other drivers can use which brand they want)

61.1 Nominated tyre companies are only Michelin and Pirelli
(so no DMack, MRF or any other brand allowed)

64.9 LINKED RALLIES where P1 WRC cars must be same chassis, motor, suspension, most parts will be sealed, no total rebuilt (The shock absorber itself will be sealed so that it is not possible to open it.)
64.9.1 Rally Argentina / Rally Chile
64.9.2 Rally Portugal / Rally Italy

APPENDIX VI Registration fee
€319,830 for WRC Manufacturer

Rally Entry fee
€43,695 for 3 cars (611.730€ / season)
€37,000 for 2 cars (518.000€ / season)
so for 3 car WRC team just entries are 931.560€ (All fees exclude local VAT.)

[Tarmop]

So Dmack is out of WRC...

[nafpaktos]

- Art 66.1.1: On a permanent testing site proposed by the Manufacturer before its first rally of the year and notified to the FIA. The area of the permanent testing site shall be within a maximum radius of 5 km (free in the past)

Free???

[ruesluporp]

- Art 66.1.1: On a permanent testing site proposed by the Manufacturer before its first rally of the year and notified to the FIA. The area of the permanent testing site shall be within a maximum radius of 5 km (free in the past)

Free???

Free choice?

Not limited?

[jbmarcus21]

First test days with Meeke-Marshall this week-end for #MonteCarlo19 with Toyota Gazoo Racing : gallery photos ► http://bit.ly/2UMKj0Q

[wwbroe]

New rules on chicane's, but no mention of virtual chicane's.:)

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/nat/artikel/d/2018/12/15/regeln-2019-teil-1-schikanen/

[wwbroe]

Basically changes are as follows:
Distance between objects raised from 7,5 to 10 meters because cars are larger. Another change is the penalties. When you hit a part of a chicane it will be a 10 sec penalty, for completely ignoring chicane or destroying it it will still be 30 sec penalty. If you ignore chicane when it is destroyed by another competitor and you don't follow the driving line trough chicane also 30 sec penalty.

[AnttiL]

These rules are for German championship, not WRC?

[JUF]

These rules are for German championship, not WRC?

Exactly. The key word is "DMSB" which means "Deutscher Motorsportbund".

[AnttiL]

Exactly. The key word is "DMSB" which means "Deutscher Motorsportbund".

Then it should be in the National championship news :) No offense, but just making sure this won't get mixed with the WRC rules.

[wwbroe]

Then it should be in the National championship news :) No offense, but just making sure this won't get mixed with the WRC rules.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, my mistake.:(

[deephouse]

Probably nothing important, but Ostberg publish he is travelling to Brussels and write that he needs to find a job?. Is there anything related to rallying there.

[Rallyper]

Probably nothing important, but Ostberg publish he is travelling to Brussels and write that he needs to find a job?. Is there anything related to rallying there.

Diversion manoevre?

[tommeke_B]

Probably nothing important, but Ostberg publish he is travelling to Brussels and write that he needs to find a job?. Is there anything related to rallying there.
There should be a lot of vacancies for handing out flyers at the Brussels car show next month, that's the only job to find in Brussels where you can get close to a rally car.

[dimviii]

@RallyingUK
��
retweeted Revista Scratch
WRC IN 2019: According to @RevistaScratch, French company @Total will supply the @fia World Rally Championship with competition fuel in 2019. Total will take over from Panta Distribuzione S.p.A of Italy | @OfficialWRC | #WRC | #WRCjp | #WRCLive

[Allez Andruet]

https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/december/brodcast-deals/page/5956--12-12-.html

Was this here already? Having no idea about how the WRC was televised in France in the past, but getting exposure on Canal+ sure is a good thing (if my understanding about Canal+ in France is not completely incorrect).

[tommeke_B]

Canal+ is commercial tv where you need to pay for a subscription. It's not cheap, I think around 20 euros/month. Similar to Sky Sports for example. Far better would have been if they could have made a deal with the French national TV.

[Allez Andruet]

Canal+ is commercial tv where you need to pay for a subscription. It's not cheap, I think around 20 euros/month. Similar to Sky Sports for example. Far better would have been if they could have made a deal with the French national TV.

Ofcourse, free-to-air TV is always the best, but I think Canal+ has quite a strong penetration in the French market.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Probably nothing important, but Ostberg publish he is travelling to Brussels and write that he needs to find a job?. Is there anything related to rallying there.

Same day M-Sport asks for a delay to enter the 2019 WRC....

[deephouse]

They need probably 15 millions, Mads will not fulfill that. If he will want to drive he could re enter team at any time even if deadlines are closed. What M-Sport is needing right now is sposnor so they could enter WRC championship for manufacturers. If not they wuill probably still be there just with the drivers titles or maybe some events will be missed.

[RS]

Any idea what this means? (Retweeted by Skoda Motorsport)

Check out @KalleRovanpera’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/KalleRovanpera/status/1074621064074932224?s=09

[CWJ]

Some recce for route note car drivers?

[dimviii]

https://twitter.com/MadsOstberg/status/1074790847642812416

[Franky]

There should be a lot of vacancies for handing out flyers at the Brussels car show next month, that's the only job to find in Brussels where you can get close to a rally car.

No vacancies as a chauffeur for the EU institutions? :D

[GravelBen]

If Mads doesn't get a drive he would make a Class-A WRC presenter :D

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/manageri-paljasti-miksi-ruotsalaistahti-jatti-skodan-he-ajattelevat-nyt-enemman-kallea/

Erik Veiby talking about Tidemand leaving Skoda for not going to have a championship contending program, because the team is fully supporting now Kalle. They are aiming at a WRC drive and he talks about changing tactics of going to drive WRC2 at teams which also have a main class WRC program. He's talking specifically of Hyundai and says the car is better than it's thought to be.

There was recently somewhere else comments from OC Veiby saying the Citroen R5 isn't any good?

[skarderud]

OC Veiby and Tidemand in Hyundai R5?
Maybe Mikkelsen/EVEN has stronger standing in Hyundai than expected?

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Zeakiwi]

What are chances that by the end of the 2019 season Tidemand has displaced either Meeke or Mikkelsen from their driving duties?

[rallyfiend]

What are chances that by the end of the 2019 season Tidemand has displaced either Meeke or Mikkelsen from their driving duties?

Why, so Mikkelesen can then sue his own manager?

[GravelBen]

What are chances that by the end of the 2019 season Tidemand has displaced either Meeke or Mikkelsen from their driving duties?

Pretty low IMO given the other more experienced competition he has for drives.

[AnttiL]

What are chances that by the end of the 2019 season Tidemand has displaced either Meeke or Mikkelsen from their driving duties?

I would say that pretty low. Hyundai would probably call in Paddon or Huttunen assuming they are still listed within the team, and Toyota would probably step in Hänninen? But I don't really see either losing their drives. At least Tommi said what Citroen did to Meeke wasn't the right thing to do.

[Allez Andruet]

What are chances that by the end of the 2019 season Tidemand has displaced either Meeke or Mikkelsen from their driving duties?

Slim and none.

[deephouse]

1694

Looks like he is seeking a rallycross drive.

[drive]

Mads is over at citcuit where new rallycross team ES Motorsport testing their new wrx Fabia for next year

[N.O.T]

someone must inform osteberg that at the age of 30+ spending your daddys money to drive cars is not called "looking for a job" is called being a laughing stock of society... i mean it sure is fun but most people have things like self respect, responsibility and integrity in their personality.

[AL14]

If Mads doesn't get a drive he would make a Class-A WRC presenter :D

Mads plus Henning :)

[deephouse]

someone must inform osteberg that at the age of 30+ spending your daddys money to drive cars is not called "looking for a job" is called being a laughing stock of society... i mean it sure is fun but most people have things like self respect, responsibility and integrity in their personality.

And what awesome thing you did in your whole life except criticize. He actually come far (even if he have money and resources) but he is way beyond than guys like Serderidis, Bertelli, Block, Qassimi... who by the way all payed for what they do. If he was nobody he would be soon forgotten but he is constantly involved in something and that's remarkable thing. He just do what he loves and is nothing wrong about that. Opportunities like this isn't ignored, I' m sure everyone would take it in his position.

[Norm75]

What are chances that by the end of the 2019 season Tidemand has displaced either Meeke or Mikkelsen from their driving duties?

Not sure why you single out Meeke and Mikkelsen.
Honour is quite a thing for Japanese, so don't see Meeke getting booted. Andreas seems to have a pretty watertight contract.
No, if it was anyone that may have any cause for worry, maybe it would be Lappi. Citroen don't really have a great record when it comes to pissing off drivers, from not re-signing McRae, to pissing off Ogier, giving Meeke the impossible task of winning the rally but not crashing the car and then given the boot, to leaving Loeb out to dry and probably upsetting Breen and Ostberg along the way. Then there's Lefevrbe, in and out the WRC team like a yo-yo . . . So no, I think it's Citroen that are most likely to be predictably unpredictable.

[SubaruNorway]

someone must inform osteberg that at the age of 30+ spending your daddys money to drive cars is not called "looking for a job" is called being a laughing stock of society... i mean it sure is fun but most people have things like self respect, responsibility and integrity in their personality.

Interesting you mentioning self respect and integrity when you've just made fun of a guy for gaining weight and wearing glasses due to an illness.

[mousti]

Mads Probably tested Polo R5 and Skoda Fabia WRX at DG Sport..

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[N.O.T]

Interesting you mentioning self respect and integrity when you've just made fun of a guy for gaining weight and wearing glasses due to an illness.

i did know he was sick, is it serious ?

Ahaaa he has sarcoidosis... pity but i think he will fight it.

[deephouse]

I've been an EVEN management athlete since 2012 and through hard work and passion for the sport we've reached many goals and milestones, like taking the junior world rally champion title in 2013, becoming Asia-Pacific rally champions in 2015 and scoring the WRC 2 champion title in 2017. It's been a fantastic ride, but now the time has come to explore new exciting opportunities for the future. To one day become world rally champion is my ultimate target and I can't miss out on any chance that can bring me closer to that goal.

I'd like to thank #TeamEVEN for everything you've done for me over the past years and also a huge thanks to one of the best co-drivers in the world that I've been lucky enough to have next to me since 2016 - Jonas Andersson, who will stay with EVEN Management.

I'm really looking forward to the 2019 season and can't wait to share my plans with you all as soon as possible!

Pontus Tidemand on Facebook

[AnttiL]

https://www.autosport.com/asi/news/140740/two-wrc-teams-to-reveal-new-liveries-at-asi

Hyundai and Citroen should have new liveries for 2019, as well as M-Sport, if they are in the series.

[vino_93]

Canal+ is commercial tv where you need to pay for a subscription. It's not cheap, I think around 20 euros/month. Similar to Sky Sports for example. Far better would have been if they could have made a deal with the French national TV.

It goes to 20 to 50 €. The fact is WRC won't be on Canal + but on a secondary canal, so you need the full package. So closer to 40/50. But that could be interesting as there are strong rumors that Canal + will launch a motorsport channel (F1, F2, F3, Indycar, WRC, Moto GP, maybe some other things I'm forgiving).

Until now it was on L'Equipe 21, a free sport channel. Commentators weren't perfect, but free & live WRC was good. I don't think WRC will have more coverage being relegated to a Canal + minor channel … ok they want to show more resume than l'équipe… Bad news for me.

[dimviii]

"It's important not to forget where we come from and how far we have come, when we are caught in the spiral of competition, the years go by very quickly, I would have signed for a lot less than that a few years ago. I am very happy to live this adventure, I really want to make it last too, which is why we continue to fight, especially for 2019. After winning six consecutive titles, it is difficult to aim for something other than a new title I am also aware that it is a new challenge that awaits us with a new car It is far from being won in advance! I have always been fond of new experiences, it gives me extra motivation, you have to adapt to the new environment and of course to the new car, you have to relearn a little to play with the settings, to see how it reacts and to find the good sensations. too soon for you highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the car, but there is no bad surprise at the moment. We are among the favorites in 2019, we do not expect to play an easy championship. "

His return to Citroën
"We will be able to bring our experience to Citroën, it helps to cross a little information from each other to try to find the right direction to progress.The team has proved that it has potential and that the car was quick, maybe not in all conditions, that's what we'll have to do together, we've been welcomed into the team, it's always a pleasure. two cars, but that does not worry me My season, I try to build it myself If you give the best, there is no reason not to do beautiful things. "
Loeb's presence at Hyundai
"It did not really surprise me, I'm just disappointed that it's just a part-time job, being there full-time at Citroën or elsewhere is the best way to compare I do not know if he will be an asset to Neuville or not, his experience, in any case, can not be negative. "

https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/rallye/wrc/detail_ogier-sur-la-saison-2019-c-est-loin-d-etre-gagne-d-avance?id=10102028

[T16]

Excellent news:

https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/december/evans-martin/page/5965--12-12-.html

[Rallyper]

Excellent news:

https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/december/evans-martin/page/5965--12-12-.html

Quite a mixed feeling to the news so far. Some additional information needed.

[T16]

Quite a mixed feeling to the news so far. Some additional information needed.

Just read the Tidemand bit too.
Great news that another car taken by a decent driver.
I get that it’s not confirmed yet, but I can’t imagine the main WRC website getting it wrong.

[Allez Andruet]

I get that it’s not confirmed yet, but I can’t imagine the main WRC website getting it wrong.

Exactly. If it was a generic rally media reporting this, I wouldn't pay too much attention, but as it's the official site (a site that definitely has some "control" over the news it publishes) it does get your hopes high.

So happy for Tidemand if this comes to fruition.

[er88]

I said in quite a few posts months ago I'd like to see Tidemand get a shot at Msport, and despite them not having a proven winner in the team, a line-up of Tidemand, Suninen and Breen would've been exciting.

It seems like Breen has missed out, but Evans, Suninen and Tidemand is still a nice line-up and I'm sure some of the likes of Bouffier/Greensmith/Camilli/Block will pop up too.

[the sniper]

Excellent news:

https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/december/evans-martin/page/5965--12-12-.html

If you're someone like me who doesn't usually bother with the fluff articles on the official site, DON'T IGNORE THIS ONE! Surely this is the most informative article ever on WRC.com?! :D

-Elfyn Evans to be partnered by Scott Martin at M-Sport.
-Pontus Tidemand "seems increasingly likely" to join M-Sport with new co-driver.
-Dan Barritt will join Takamoto Katsuta for a 13-round WRC 2 programme
-Jonas Andersson leaves Tidemand to co-drive Ole Christian Veiby in a Volkswagen Polo R5
-Stig Skjaermoen (formerly Veiby co-driver) to co drive World Rallycross champion Johan Kristoffersson, "who will also pilot a Polo in a mixed programme".

(EDIT: Still behind this forum though of course... ;) )

[spiderem]

really hope that M-Sport will be there next season.

Whose driver was scott martin with before? le cheikh? different speed...

[Tarmop]

Breen`s co-driver...

[spiderem]

Breen`s co-driver...

my bad, thanks. Seems getting worse for Breen then... Although plenty of co-driver available, more than drives for sure!

[BigWorm]

Think it's right to retain Evans for 2019, he had a troubled year but showed some promising signs the last few events. He'll be no1 driver next year though and he has to show he can perform like one now, can't go missing in events like he has done in the past.

[RS]

my bad, thanks. Seems getting worse for Breen then... Although plenty of co-driver available, more than drives for sure!

Maybe Paul Nagle with Breen? They worked together before.

[Eli]

Doesn't look encouraging at all for Mr. Breen, hopefully 2020 will light up his future.

[Norm75]

Maybe Paul Nagle with Breen? They worked together before.

Nagle co driver for Breen a couple of weeks ago in Killarney.

[deephouse]

And then boom, he overperform with Nagle and leave everyone with open mouths.. Maybe just a wish.

Now with FIA and their ''pyramid'' of naming rally car classes... https://www.motor.es/noticias/fia-quiere-usar-rally-piramid-desde-wrc-2020-201852937.html

[garais22]

ERC Junior U27 champion Martins Sesks will make full season in JWRC + 2 ERC rallies with ''Škoda Fabia R5'' as price for winning ERC Junior U27
http://www.go4speed.lv/lv/news/wrc/8578-martins-sesks-krisjanis-caune-startes-pasaules-rallija-cempionata/

[T16]

Think it's right to retain Evans for 2019, he had a troubled year but showed some promising signs the last few events. He'll be no1 driver next year though and he has to show he can perform like one now, can't go missing in events like he has done in the past.

I've not considered the driver status in M-Sport for next year. Will Evans be number one?

[Allez Andruet]

I've not considered the driver status in M-Sport for next year. Will Evans be number one?

Based on their resume, I think Evans has to be valuated higher than Suninen at the start of the season.

If - and I guess that's a big if - the M-Sport trio will consist of Evans, Suninen and Tidemand, it would make for a perfect team in many ways. Not that it would challenge for any titles next season, but there would truly be competition between them, where no-one basically could afford to lose to his teammate(s).

[BigWorm]

I've not considered the driver status in M-Sport for next year. Will Evans be number one?

He's got the experience and the merits, compared to Suninen and Tidemand, to be.

[Andre Oliveira]

Are you serious thinking that will be a number one in M-Sport Ford in 2019?

[irish_tiger]

Is there any word at all on Craig Breen ?

[deephouse]

Losing his co-driver, no not much. I think he has not options in top category. Maybe in WRC2 or even in Pro.

[mknight]

Looking only on results vs experience and car I'd pick Breen over Evans.

Breen has not yet done a full season and this was his second half season with last one being in C3 that had lot of issues. This year he has good results from Sweden and GB, didn't get to start on some of the best rallies for the car (Mex, Cors.)

Evans in his 4th full season did also only 2 good results (Por, Spain), and in Portugal he basically only beat Sordo on speed (and timepenalties) since everyone else had issues.

That said Evans has a history with Msport, which likely matters a lot.

[Allez Andruet]

Are you serious thinking that will be a number one in M-Sport Ford in 2019?

Not number one like Ogier was number one ofcourse, but more as a driver who's the most likely to bring in results for the team. For that role, whether it's called being number one or not, Evans fits better than Suninen (starting his first full WRC season) or rookie-Tidemand. Assuming those are the three forming the M-Sport squad for 2019.

[wrc2017]

Looking only on results vs experience and car I'd pick Breen over Evans.

Breen has not yet done a full season and this was his second half season with last one being in C3 that had lot of issues. This year he has good results from Sweden and GB, didn't get to start on some of the best rallies for the car (Mex, Cors.)

Evans in his 4th full season did also only 2 good results (Por, Spain), and in Portugal he basically only beat Sordo on speed (and timepenalties) since everyone else had issues.

That said Evans has a history with Msport, which likely matters a lot.

wilson has invested heavily in evans, so to drop him, he give up all hope of getting a return. breen will pay if desperate enough. welcome to 2nd tier driver market.

[irish_tiger]

wilson has invested heavily in evans, so to drop him, he give up all hope of getting a return. breen will pay if desperate enough. welcome to 2nd tier driver market.

NO the MSA or Motorsport UK now as its know invested heavily - and also The Welsh Government ?? Not Malcolm - he has not put any money in from M-Sport ...fact

[deephouse]

People are assuming that Wilson iivest in young guys just because he takes them from lower classes. Every team could do that if they want. If Wilson would be in serious fight for the titles after the Ford left then he wouldn't bother of them but heavily ivolve guys like Latvala, Meeke, Ogier, Neuville, Mikkelsen, Tanak, and not let them go. Everyone left for the better paycheck and better chance of the title.

[T16]

People are assuming that Wilson iivest in young guys just because he takes them from lower classes. Every team could do that if they want. If Wilson would be in serious fight for the titles after the Ford left then he wouldn't bother of them but heavily ivolve guys like Latvala, Meeke, Ogier, Neuville, Mikkelsen, Tanak, and not let them go. Everyone left for the better paycheck and better chance of the title.

You seem to be forgetting that he simply wouldn't be able to afford their wages. Otherwise, what reason is there for him not to have one of them driving for the team?

He said the Ogier thing was a one-off and that M-Sport couldn't afford to take that kind of hit again.

He is doing everything he can to keep the team running and that means using the drivers that he looks to have secured for 2019.

[mknight]

Wilson has been doing this long before Ford left.
Duval and Martin were cheap (free?) drivers from 2002 (2003 for Duval) . When they started to get good he let them go at end of 2004. For 2005 he then got Kresta and Sola as paying drivers with Gardemeister prbly driving for little or no money. All this while it still was official Ford team.

[tommeke_B]

The real reason Duval left to M-Sport was because Wilson could not offer a contract, as support from Ford was unsure. The deal with Ford for 2005 was only signed very last-minute, when Duval had already signed with Citroën.

[Got Mail]

NO the MSA or Motorsport UK now as its know invested heavily - and also The Welsh Government ?? Not Malcolm - he has not put any money in from M-Sport ...fact

MSA investment may have bought him a couple of free lunches and the odd coffee but not much beyond that....

[the sniper]

NO the MSA or Motorsport UK now as its know invested heavily - and also The Welsh Government ??

Was this intended as a joke?

[Rally Power]

I've not considered the driver status in M-Sport for next year. Will Evans be number one?

Probably he's now more worried about being confirmed for the whole season; maybe he'll have to share the car with some paying drivers. For now, Suninen seems to be the only one with a full program in MSport.

Btw, why is it taking so long to confirm WRC2 Pro teams and drivers? With so many WRC drivers now available, it feels strange not hearing about WRC2 manus signing them; for some it'd probably be the best chance to also get a couple of WRC drives.

[deephouse]

I think that it will be revealed at Autosport event of the season launch. Because it's kind of a big thing, I guess.

[EstWRC]

Guess what number Neuville chose for next season?

11 :D

[dimviii]

https://careers.fia.com/index.php?page=advertisement_display&id=37

[Essaj]

Probably he's now more worried about being confirmed for the whole season; maybe he'll have to share the car with some paying drivers. For now, Suninen seems to be the only one with a full program in MSport.

Btw, why is it taking so long to confirm WRC2 Pro teams and drivers? With so many WRC drivers now available, it feels strange not hearing about WRC2 manus signing them; for some it'd probably be the best chance to also get a couple of WRC drives.

Are we really expecting manus to sign drivers for WRC2? Skoda has Kalle and Jan, Hyundai may still use Huttunen but I don't see any other manu to sign anyone and use drivers that rent their cars instead.

[dimviii]

But with Loeb confirmed for a part programme in 2019 after signing a two-year deal with Hyundai Motorsport last week, Ogier will have to be content with going head-to-head on six occasions rather than 14.
Speaking at a pre-season test in the South of France, Ogier said: “It is disappointing it’s not for a full programme, that would have been much nicer for the championship. But that’s how it is.
“It won’t change our championship because if they [Loeb and Hyundai] don’t want to do the full championship, we will not focus on them. Like always, we will focus on our real challengers.”

https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/december/seb-vs-seb/page/5966--12-12-.html

[Rally Power]

Are we really expecting manus to sign drivers for WRC2? Skoda has Kalle and Jan, Hyundai may still use Huttunen but I don't see any other manu to sign anyone and use drivers that rent their cars instead.

If so, that’s a pitty. With Ostberg, Paddon, Breen, Camilli and even Hanninen (besides Tidemand) apparently available, it’d be a waste not having WRC2 manus offering them a program.

[Barreis]

yeah, they are available to pay for a drive :D

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Du8e1hrXQAAr3_2?format=jpg&name=large

[wwbroe]

Yes, M-sport are indeed on FIA list for WRC 2019, and also on WRC2 Pro;)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Great news for the WRC, M-Sport in both championships in 2019.

[Bartolbia84]

No Škoda?

[EstWRC]

Lappis first thoughts about Citroen https://translate.google.ee/translate?hl=et&tab=wT&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallye-magazin.de%2Fwrc%2Fartikel%2Fd%2F2018%2F12%2F21%2F lappi-in-diesem-bereich-ist-citroen-besser-als-toyota%2F

says its not a difficult car to drive.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

No Škoda?

"R5 Manufacturers are permitted to register at any point..."

Let's hope some others come in later.

[Mirek]

No Škoda?

I'm quite sure they will join but not for Monte Carlo.

[dimviii]

Yes, M-sport are indeed on FIA list for WRC 2019, and also on WRC2 Pro;)

Μalcolm finally managed to find budget for wrc and wrc 2.
some miracle happened last 5-6 days.https://www.petrolheads.gr/images/smilies/oldforum/shifty.gif

same story every year....

[Rallyper]

Μalcolm finally managed to find budget for wrc and wrc 2.
some miracle happened last 5-6 days.https://www.petrolheads.gr/images/smilies/oldforum/shifty.gif

same story every year....

Depending supposely on so many decisions been taken by many different stakeholders. Those processes take its time. However made possible for Pontus bringing the final amount of money giving coast clear for MW.

[dimviii]

Depending supposely on so many decisions been taken by many different stakeholders. Given that Pontus brought the final amount of money.

so Pontus money for 2 rallies decided Msport entry for whole year? Come on Per...

[Rallyper]

so Pontus money for 2 rallies decided Msport entry for whole year? Come on Per...

Could be. As last as one week ago MW wanted an exception from FIA for apply this friday, so ...

1) We don´t know how many rallies he will do. Eg. amount of money brought.
2) Maybe he brought that last sum making possible.

Just speculations whatever.

[Tarmop]

I doubt that there`s much left after you take away the expenses for running that car. In terms of championship i mean.

[Rallyper]

I doubt that there`s much left after you take away the expenses for running that car. In terms of championship i mean.

So then MW found money elsewhere besides hiring a new driver? Well, I don´t say it is´nt that way. Paying drivers must give profit as well, is my thoughts.

[Tarmop]

They do, but when you look at only the price of running cars in WRC2 Pro and WRC+ entry, then you might say, that the profit couldn`t be that big.

[Rallyper]

They do, but when you look at only the price of running cars in WRC2 Pro and WRC+ entry, then you might say, that the profit couldn`t be that big.

Profit comes after reducing for all costs, including WRC Team entry, I´d say. Making me believe that entry fees are included in cost for a wheel. Whole season or parts of it.

[mknight]

Puzzled by Tidemand tbh. Hope he doesn't have funding only for those two events and hopes to get more later. (remember Atkinson using last/only money for Irland start in 2009).

Cause in Monte he will have a hard time and is not likely to finish high up.
Hopefully he has money for more and just has not decided which ones.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's official - M-Sport are there for WRC 2019 ! :D

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/140770/msport-goes-ahead-with-2019-wrc-programme

[Mirek]

Cause in Monte he will have a hard time and is not likely to finish high up.

You never know. It's kind of a lottery. He may also win it if he's superlucky. Even that would not be the first time something like that happened. Monte is just Monte.

[bassist]

It's official - M-Sport are there for WRC 2019 ! :D

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/140770/msport-goes-ahead-with-2019-wrc-programme

Great news, but such as shame it looks as if Craig has lost out.

[tomhlord]

I'm quite sure they will join but not for Monte Carlo.

Weird, because they sell a 'Monte Carlo's version of the Fabia.

[deephouse]

Elfyn Evans also confirmed alongside Teemu and Pontus (Mon, Swe). All three with new co-drivers. Interesting

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Will be interesting to see who the main sponsor is on the M-Sport cars.

[deephouse]

Maybe FORD, they have signed like M-Sport Ford WRT for manufacturer championship. And for WRC2 Pro too.

[AnttiL]

Maybe FORD, they have signed like M-Sport Ford WRT for manufacturer championship. And for WRC2 Pro too.

It was already M-Sport Ford WRT last year.


Will be interesting to see who the main sponsor is on the M-Sport cars.

I'm looking at your avatar...

[dimviii]

Will be interesting to see who the main sponsor is on the M-Sport cars.

i said that a miracle happened last week.Dont wait to see any new major sponsor.

[dimviii]

Could be. As last as one week ago MW wanted an exception from FIA for apply this friday, so ...

1) We don´t know how many rallies he will do. Eg. amount of money brought.
2) Maybe he brought that last sum making possible.

Just speculations whatever.

Malcolm has to push till the last time for extra money from Ford and other sponsors.
Thats happening every year.
He is not stupid to go out of the oxygen of his bussines.

[deephouse]

It was already M-Sport Ford WRT last year.

Yes, it was but then again there was Ogier on the board. And still they wasn't satisfied with ''ford involvement'' so that means that maybe just for 2018 and then they are gone again. And no redbull on their cars even harder. But then they came with same name as this season (between 2013-2017 there wasn't Ford name in it) so that explains a lot.

[Mirek]

Škoda CEO Bernhard Maier said that Škoda needed to save 0,5 billion Euro per year in the comming years to finance development related to the electric cars, new emission standards and also building a new factory somewhere (likely Romania or Bulgaria as there is nobody to work in it in here). Considering that it seems that WRC is out of question for now. The R5 project is profitable and shall not be in danger I think.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It was already M-Sport Ford WRT last year.
.

That is the team name, I'm talking about on the CAR.

Red Bull was the big car sponsor which has gone. Running these 2017 cars is big money and if they dont have a new main sponsor then Dimvii will be proved right.

[AnttiL]

That is the team name, I'm talking about on the CAR.

I was replying to deephouse about the team name...

[Rally Power]

Great to hear about MSport and Evans confirmation, besides Tidemand announced drives. Big disappointment on MC WRC2 Pro: allowing random scoring through the season, instead of a mandatory calendar, probably won’t help this new series to get decent entry lists.

[deephouse]

If it not it will soon be axed like Trophy. My opinion is sceptical about whole Pro thing. OK if there was major interests of many works teams but there ain't so much of them. If you look closely Citroen, Skoda, VW, Hyundai, M-Sport, Peugeot, Proton, Opel, Mitsubishi, Toyota all made their R5 versions but then there is only two of them at the entry for the start (one with oldest spec R5) and others seems not bothered much about this. But then again if you look at this if all would be involved then it could overshadow top WRC category with cheaper costs of running and then probably one or two teams there would leave and stay in lower class... Just my thoughts.

[Mirek]

Uh? Toyota never ever homologated any R5. Same goes for Mitsubishi and Opel. Proton hasn't been yet homologated so it naturally can not compete either. Peugeot stopped their rally activities except R2 cups and their R5 is old and non-competitive -> Citroën takes over.

Citroën and M-Sport are already in. Škoda will be in, just not already from the start. Hyundai? Hard to say but I hope it will be in as well (last year they had a manufacturer entry). Proton won't as their priority is the APRC and the car will come too late for WRC2. VW? Maybe some team will enter the WRC Pro? I don't know but it's certainly possible.

As many pointed out already the WRC2 simply has stupid rules. Why are all events included but only 8 top scores count? I really don't understand why they made it like this.

[deephouse]

What about Etios? Or it was only private project. All this talk about new manufacturer entry leave everyone hoping of something new, but clearly nothing happened in that way.

[Mirek]

Etios has only regional homologation and it's not a works project.

New R5 manufactuers keep coming since the beginning and their number has been steadily increasing. If You expect faster rate You need to get real.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Having M-Sport, Citroen, Škoda and Hyundai would be a good WRC Pro battle. But even better if a VW team would be there.

[m-ast]

Having M-Sport, Citroen, Škoda and Hyundai would be a good WRC Pro battle. But even better if a VW team would be there.

It won't be a real battle because everyone will enter different events, I really don't understand the point of this shit of WRC2 score system, they should fix the events to count to have the real battle between the drivers

[RS]

Škoda CEO Bernhard Maier said that Škoda needed to save 0,5 billion Euro per year in the comming years to finance development related to the electric cars, new emission standards and also building a new factory somewhere (likely Romania or Bulgaria as there is nobody to work in it in here). Considering that it seems that WRC is out of question for now. The R5 project is profitable and shall not be in danger I think.

If it’s true top factory teams are spending 60-70m euros on WRC, I am not surprised Skoda board would be sceptical to change their current strategy, which as you pointed out is profitable and can be used in WRC2, APRC, ERC, national championships..

Shame because it seems pretty obvious they would do a much better job now than their previous spell in WRC.

[deephouse]

If it’s true top factory teams are spending 60-70m euros on WRC, I am not surprised Skoda board would be sceptical to change their current strategy, which as you pointed out is profitable and can be used in WRC2, APRC, ERC, national championships..

Shame because it seems pretty obvious they would do a much better job now than their previous spell in WRC.

Maybe too much (and too strong competition).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It won't be a real battle because everyone will enter different events, I really don't understand the point of this shit of WRC2 score system, they should fix the events to count to have the real battle between the drivers

Hasnt that been the same before in WRC2 ?

Like when Elfyn Evans was driving in WRC2 2016 he was entering different events to his competitors...

[Mirek]

Maybe too much (and too strong competition).

If You didn't notice they compete with the very same competitors in R5. Believe me that's really not the reason.

[AnttiL]

Hasnt that been the same before in WRC2 ?

Like when Elfyn Evans was driving in WRC2 2016 he was entering different events to his competitors...

And the same in main WRC until 1994 when 100% full seasons were introduced (through three years of rotating a few rallies per year for F2 only)

[dimviii]

haha
https://twitter.com/DanosElena/status/1077247726067372032

[mknight]

If You didn't notice they compete with the very same competitors in R5. Believe me that's really not the reason.

Skoda'a budget seems to be much higher than all the other R5 teams. At least before C3 and Polo came.
Most notably the testing and continuing development part. Others seemed to just make the car and then let it sell with little changes as long as somebody was buying it. (208, DS3, i20). But again that's just how it looks to me. Might be wrong.

[Mirek]

Skoda'a budget seems to be much higher than all the other R5 teams. At least before C3 and Polo came.
Most notably the testing and continuing development part. Others seemed to just make the car and then let it sell with little changes as long as somebody was buying it. (208, DS3, i20). But again that's just how it looks to me. Might be wrong.

Sorry but doesn't proof anything about them being afraid of competition. Quite the opposite. It shows that when they do something they do it on 100%. Really the reason why they are not in WRC is not them being afraid of something.

[er88]

Sorry but doesn't proof anything about them being afraid of competition. Quite the opposite. It shows that when they do something they do it on 100%. Really the reason why they are not in WRC is not them being afraid of something.Well it is, maybe they're afraid to invest the money needed to take the next step and take on the current wrc teams. They're afraid to step up to the plate, having proven everything in the lower classes. It's why they'd rather sit where they are and be content with what they have. They've been market leaders in s2000 and now R5 but won't take the plunge - despite it being possible to win without spending the most.

They'd rather be safe than sorry. That's obvious

[Tarmop]

What is obvious, is that such big decisions and money come from VAG leadership in Wolfsburg.

[deephouse]

Don't be so protective just because you are Czech - Mirek. Although it's their decision why they are where they are. We will not change that. But I would be really happy and maybe others too if they would step up to the big game. How bad that could be even if they would suck at the beginning. They have experience in lower class in the highest too. Budget I think wouldn't be a problem at all even for a caliber like Ogier or Loeb type investments (others I think are not that much expensive). Maybe they are really waiting for right oportunity like some guessed (new Fabia introduction or new regulations).

I mean it's kind of strange why they invest in 5 drivers ths year. With 2 of them being in fight for the title and then ''offer'' Kopecky a prestigious title (maybe for his loyalty - he definetly deserves it). Then build a new facility for what project? (they have talk about it and then nothing). I don't think that is that just for building their R5 machines. Or it's producton so huge that they need serial production lines for faster, cheaper building of that cars. Are they working on new R4 cars or R2? Then let's move on, then the fired Veiby (OK understandable he show something that he was not allowed to). Obviously they let go Nordgren too and keep only Rovanperra (he had a valid contract) and Kopecky. Tidemand have another offer too but he declined it and go seeking new oportunities. Well if Skoda was intend to bring their programme to the WRC then that would be a stupid idea to go out of the team.

Next thing some guy in Skoda Motorsport department say that their plan is not coming to the WRC and that's it. I think that they have maybe consider it and then change their minds, at least for a while. With their herritage in that kind of motorsport I think that they will be here for a long time and maybe when they will be ready they will come officially. We can only wait for their real intentions and hpe that this day would someday come. I think that Skoda coming is more possible than Mitsubishi and Subaru combined. These two manufacturers even don't make proper cars for that project.

Then there is another thing with interesting guessing. Skoda maybe will closely look at WRX and ES Motorsport activities. And if they will be succesfull why not try over there and support the team with factory money (just my guessing).

What I'm really sad is that sponsors don't invest more in this sport (WRC). They are rather in F1, or some football related sports. But novadays a lot of people invest in their cars and closest sport is rallying. Now I need to stop haha

[Mirek]

Don't be so protective just because you are Czech - Mirek.

That's not the case :)


Although it's their decision why they are where they are. We will not change that. But I would be really happy and maybe others too if they would step up to the big game. How bad that could be even if they would suck at the beginning. They have experience in lower class in the highest too. Budget I think wouldn't be a problem at all even for a caliber like Ogier or Loeb type investments (others I think are not that much expensive). Maybe they are really waiting for right oportunity like some guessed (new Fabia introduction or new regulations).

One of the issues is that it's not their decision. At least it's not them alone who can decide and the smallest word of all decision makers has the motorsport department itself which is more a tool in the hands of the marketing strategists.


I mean it's kind of strange why they invest in 5 drivers ths year. With 2 of them being in fight for the title and then ''offer'' Kopecky a prestigious title (maybe for his loyalty - he definetly deserves it).

Agree that this was really strange and I have personally no idea what was behind that.


Then build a new facility for what project? (they have talk about it and then nothing). I don't think that is that just for building their R5 machines. Or it's producton so huge that they need serial production lines for faster, cheaper building of that cars.

That's how they actually present it. The truth is that the old facility was non-suitable for the motorsport department and especially for the volumes of the R5 cars being built and serviced there. They build approximately 80 R5 cars per year. that's quite a lot.


Are they working on new R4 cars or R2?

To my knowledge not and I would be very suprised if they would. It seems they are not interested at all.


Then let's move on, then the fired Veiby (OK understandable he show something that he was not allowed to). Obviously they let go Nordgren too and keep only Rovanperra (he had a valid contract) and Kopecky. Tidemand have another offer too but he declined it and go seeking new oportunities. Well if Skoda was intend to bring their programme to the WRC then that would be a stupid idea to go out of the team.

I still think that at some point there was a possibility to launch the WRC project (as that was the only logical explanation for hiring those five). Let's not forget what Veiby himself leaked - the company counts with massive decrease of profit in the comming years due to high investments mainly related to electric vehicles. That's the most likely factor behind the current planning. It's a big company and in such companies decisions take time. That's why sometimes some actions look illogical when they actually happen because we do not know when decisions were taken and in which sequence.



Next thing some guy in Skoda Motorsport department say that their plan is not coming to the WRC and that's it. I think that they have maybe consider it and then change their minds, at least for a while. With their herritage in that kind of motorsport I think that they will be here for a long time and maybe when they will be ready they will come officially. We can only wait for their real intentions and hpe that this day would someday come. I think that Skoda coming is more possible than Mitsubishi and Subaru combined. These two manufacturers even don't make proper cars for that project.

I am quite sure the motorsport department would like to do that and that it's not afraid of that at all. The issue is that the global strategy of the company and the VAG most likely doesn't count with that.


Then there is another thing with interesting guessing. Skoda maybe will closely look at WRX and ES Motorsport activities. And if they will be succesfull why not try over there and support the team with factory money (just my guessing).

They can support that of course (I guess they already do to some degree) but for sure I don't expect a true factory involvement there. Anyway I'm nowhere close to be knowledgeble about RX so it's only my assumption.


What I'm really sad is that sponsors don't invest more in this sport (WRC). They are rather in F1, or some football related sports. But novadays a lot of people invest in their cars and closest sport is rallying. Now I need to stop haha

In my eyes this is actually the most somewhat fair side of the game. The sponsors simply support what gives them something back. The level of sponsorship activities is a perfect mirracle of the marketing value of the sport. It's not an F1 and it will never be (and of course it's absolutely nowhere close to football) but it's not that bad. It's the second most popular motorsport (per Citroën marketing study from few years back).

[the sniper]

What I'm really sad is that sponsors don't invest more in this sport (WRC). They are rather in F1, or some football related sports.

Even most F1 teams struggle to attract corporate sponsors nowadays. Sadly you're right about Football though. It's all about return on investment, 'shared values' and appearing to be environmentally responsible. So big companies are far more comfortable throwing their money at an unimaginative ball game with a large audience of small minds, drunkards, racists and wife beaters... Whereas we just have NOT. ;) :D

[Mirek]

It's not fair to kick into football despite all that stupid stuff like pretending. It's a trully universal game which can be played by absolutely every heathy person on the Globe and in which for being good You don't need any money at all. That's why it's being followed by billions and why childs from poor families became mega stars. And that's all You need to know to understand why the sponsor money is there.

Motorsport has many issues in this regard. It's very expensive and that's why certain percentage of people will always see it as a fun activity for rich people. It's anything but ecologic which means that certain percentage of people (and sponsors) will refuse it. For certain people it's not a sport at all due to no athletic performance. For another people it's too complicated to understand. And least but not last it requires certain interest in cars and technical stuff. All of that means that the pool of followers is tiny compared to football.

[krissucool]

It's not fair to kick into football despite all that stupid stuff like pretending. It's a trully universal game which can be played by absolutely every heathy person on the Globe and in which for being good You don't need any money at all. That's why it's being followed by billions and why childs from poor families became mega stars. And that's all You need to know to understand why the sponsor money is there.

Motorsport has many issues in this regard. It's very expensive and that's why certain percentage of people will always see it as a fun activity for rich people. It's anything but ecologic which means that certain percentage of people (and sponsors) will refuse it. For certain people it's not a sport at all due to no athletic performance. For another people it's too complicated to understand. And least but not last it requires certain interest in cars and technical stuff. All of that means that the pool of followers is tiny compared to football.

It is also objectively the most boring sport on earth where 99% of the game time nothing is happening.

[Mirek]

It is also objectively the most boring sport on earth where 99% of the game time nothing is happening.

Objectively if that was true nobody would watch it. So objectively not.

I bet most of the people not following rallying would tell You absolutely the same about it. You stand next to the road in rain. Nothing happens. Than frrrr, 5 seconds and one car passed. Another two minutes of standing in the rain. Nothing happens. Frrr, 5 seconds and again two minutes of watching trees... For sure people like us find something interesting in it but You can never ever expect majority of people thinking that this is not boring.

[mknight]

I agree the real reason why they are not joining is political. Just like VW exit was.
For Skoda it's about 60% the money related to coming investments (and the PR/shareholders effect if they use large sums on WRC at same time). The rest is related to the current rules cycle coming to an end in 2-3? years. The new rules definitely need to include some hybridization else WRC ends like WRX did. Since it takes 1-1,5 years+ to develop a winning WRC it's late to join now.

[the sniper]

It's not fair to kick into football despite all that stupid stuff like pretending. It's a trully universal game which can be played by absolutely every heathy person on the Globe and in which for being good You don't need any money at all. That's why it's being followed by billions and why childs from poor families became mega stars. And that's all You need to know to understand why the sponsor money is there.

Precisely why it's the most unimaginative sport in the world. Anyone can do it. You can barely avoid seeing it. People are force fed its influence and many gorge themselves on it. It's no wonder sponsors love it, other than TV soap operas, there are few things with such a huge audience of sheep like followers.


It is also objectively the most boring sport on earth where 99% of the game time nothing is happening.

Rallying is a sport where you can spend 99% of the time just looking at scenery. We can hardly talk on that front! :D

[cali]

It is also objectively the most boring sport on earth where 99% of the game time nothing is happening.Try to watch Baseball then.... :D

[RS]

Has it actually been confirmed when new WRC rules cycle will start? Perhaps it will coincide nicely with the launch of the next Fabia production model.

[Franky]

I bet most of the people not following rallying would tell You absolutely the same about it. You stand next to the road in rain. Nothing happens. Than frrrr, 5 seconds and one car passed. Another two minutes of standing in the rain. Nothing happens. Frrr, 5 seconds and again two minutes of watching trees... For sure people like us find something interesting in it but You can never ever expect majority of people thinking that this is not boring.

So a bullet point for the WRC promoter. Rally fans are the biggest nature lovers of all (the sport fans).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Firstly football and rally have a big similarity - nothing happens for ages, then a big thing (a goal / a fast car). Its all about the anticipation.

And secend, remember that rally is now live to watch on screen. So you see a lot more action (no boring waiting) and the sponsors now get far more coverage.

[deephouse]

But still there ain't many of them. Castrol, Repsol, Martini, 555 have all been pretty long time in WRC. Even Marlboro was there too. Now there is only maybe Redbull that's left. With Abu Dhabi gone we don't know if they will be back.

[Mirek]

Tobacco product advertisement has been forbidden for nearly thirty years. Crying that they are not involved anymore is... strange at least.

Alcohol advertisement has been partially forbidden in certain countries as well. Since WRC is global You can't expect involvement of a company which would need to remove its adverts for part of the events.

For the rest it's easy to say that some company was involved and isn't anymore and completely omit the opposite case - the companies which were never involved in the past but are now in. You can start with Toyota sponsors Microsoft or DMG Mori.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Is there any other sport where a sponsor follows the world champion to whichever team he's with, like RB have with Ogier ?

[Mirek]

Of course, many sportsmen have their own personal sponsors.

[AnttiL]

Tobacco product advertisement has been forbidden for nearly thirty years.

I would say more like 10-15 years...remember the Marlboro liveried Mitsus and Peugeots? Of course with no logos in most countries.

[Mirek]

It developed through the years but in some countries the ban was in place already in early 90'.

[deephouse]

What about Castrol. They have been long time on Toyotas and then most of the time on Fords

[Mirek]

Castrol is still in. It's one of Škoda's sponsors for example.

[AnttiL]

It developed through the years but in some countries the ban was in place already in early 90'.

In Finland already late 70’s

If I remember correctly, in late 90’s tobacco advertising was allowed in Monaco, but not in France, so they taped Marlboro’s over after ceremonial start in RMC

[Gregor-y]

Try to watch Baseball then.... :D
It's a mix of action and statistics, though I don't think many people fill out the sheet you used to get with your ticket. A hundred and more years ago it was a big deal to a generation that had the first taste of leisure and literacy in the US.

[cali]

It's a mix of action and statistics, though I don't think many people fill out the sheet you used to get with your ticket. A hundred and more years ago it was a big deal to a generation that had the first taste of leisure and literacy in the US.I'm not against any sports specially when have been involved in sports whole my life. And I understand how big part statistics can have in American pro sports. Just watched MLB World Series last match on a TV rerun. Not whole a lot action going on...

[tommeke_B]

In Finland already late 70’s

If I remember correctly, in late 90’s tobacco advertising was allowed in Monaco, but not in France, so they taped Marlboro’s over after ceremonial start in RMC
Banning of tabacco advertising was mostly at the end of the 90's I think. In Belgium the ban started at the end of 1998 I think. One of the last rallies where we've seen tobacco advertising must have been Barum Rally 2004 (CZ), where Thiry competed with the Kronos/Bastos-C2 S1600. After that year Bastos stopped advertising, as the brand name could not be displayed anywhere anymore.

[Mirek]

One of the last rallies where we've seen tobacco advertising must have been Barum Rally 2004 (CZ), where Thiry competed with the Kronos/Bastos-C2 S1600.

Yes, in my understanding they somehow used a grey zone in that time existing law in CZ which allowed continuation of tobacco advertisement based on the pre-2002 deals until the end of 2004. This was valid only for certain types of advertisement while some others were banned already in 1995. In fact tobacco adverts were banned in CZ already in 1991 but the law survived only few months before it was canceled under heavy lobbying...

[Allez Andruet]

Most European countries had already either completely banned or restricted the tobacco advertising coming into the new millennium. The EU directive for the complete ban came into effect in 2005. Can't remember the exact details (how, and by which ruling), but the use of alternative ways of advertising (like 'East' or 'Tommi' or 'BENSON & HEDGES') has also basically been banned during the past 10 years or so.

[Rallyper]

The negativeness from non ecological environmental responsibility is on all sports, actually. Not only motorsports as some people are arguing. Same amount of pollution or even more from big games as football, cricket, ishockey or whatever... I´m thinking of spectators in 100 000´s ...

[Mirek]

Yes but that's something different because the negative effect is not directly connected with the sporting activity itself and it's not promoted by the activity. The point is that for some people and some potential sponsors motorsport is simply something they refuse in principle because it represents something wrong for them. In fact it's rather impossible to find a bulletproof argument against that because in general they are right.

[Allez Andruet]

And secend, remember that rally is now live to watch on screen. So you see a lot more action (no boring waiting) and the sponsors now get far more coverage.

While I'm not denying that as such, we have to remember that it's basically the same with all sports nowadays. The reach of basically every single sporting event on the planet has grown into astronomical levels, so rally has only narrowed the gap (vs. others) if anything. And in addition to the wider reach, there's also a huge amount of new sports competing for the same sponsor money. And - if that wasn't enough - the global media trend of "big getting bigger" (the recent merger of AT&T and Time Warner serving as an example of that on the most extreme scale, or the merger of Telia and Bonnier on much smaller scale - the point is that it happens on all levels and regions) means that the broadcasting money is more and more centralized towards to the biggest leagues of the most popular sports. It doesn't make life any easier for anyone (whether it's a driver or a manager) trying to secure funding for any sort of rally program.

[Myrvold]

Is there any other sport where a sponsor follows the world champion to whichever team he's with, like RB have with Ogier ?

You do have some football players that uses different equipment from the rest of the squad due to sponsors (this is not popular in the teams though).
Alonso and Santander in F1 was connected.

But basically RB does this with proper RB-drivers, either continues as a personal sponsor, or goes in as some sort of sponsor for the team as well.

[the sniper]

Yes but that's something different because the negative effect is not directly connected with the sporting activity itself and it's not promoted by the activity. The point is that for some people and some potential sponsors motorsport is simply something they refuse in principle because it represents something wrong for them. In fact it's rather impossible to find a bulletproof argument against that because in general they are right.

Exactly. It's perception.

Funnily enough a couple of months ago I came across the document below while randomly looking up big companies that I thought theoretically could be involved in rallying. I came across this document from Telia (no doubt many of you are familiar with it, but it's a big phone services provider across Scandinavia and the Baltic states, prime rally country) where they particularly rule out motor sport sponsorship in their group marketing instructions:


Requirement 8
Sponsorships and donations cannot be
o related to political support (i.e. to political parties, politicians or related institutions)
o conducted in a way that it can be interpreted as a political payment or bribery
o related to the process of obtaining or retaining business from the recipient, i.e. it must be
ensured that the person who has the power to make business decisions, such as
awarding contracts, licenses or permits, is not involved in the sponsored object
o provided to individuals
o provided to organizations, activities or events believed to be discriminating or unethical,
e.g. related to alcohol, tobacco, drugs, gambling, weapons, pornography
o provided to activities or events that will have significant negative environmental impact,
e.g. motor sports and activities which include handing out a large amount of disposables
o provided to religious or military activities

From Page 4: https://www.teliacompany.com/globalassets/telia-company/documents/about-telia-company/public-policy/group-instruction---sponsorships-and-donations.pdf

Look at the stuff motors sport joins on that list... This is why at least the upper level rallying going electric in some form is not a choice, it's an absolute necessity if the WRC in particular is going to continue to exist in a few years. Hopefully we can get away with just going down the hybrid route and retaining the ICE element, not going full electric.

[Francis44]

Exactly. It's perception.

Funnily enough a couple of months ago I came across the document below while randomly looking up big companies that I thought theoretically could be involved in rallying. I came across this document from Telia (no doubt many of you are familiar with it, but it's a big phone services provider across Scandinavia and the Baltic states, prime rally country) where they particularly rule out motor sport sponsorship in their group marketing instructions:



From Page 4: https://www.teliacompany.com/globalassets/telia-company/documents/about-telia-company/public-policy/group-instruction---sponsorships-and-donations.pdf

Look at the stuff motors sport joins on that list... This is why at least the upper level rallying going electric in some form is not a choice, it's an absolute necessity if the WRC in particular is going to continue to exist in a few years. Hopefully we can get away with just going down the hybrid route and retaining the ICE element, not going full electric.

You would be foolish to believe those same exact companies would ever have any significant interest in the WRC even if it was fully electric. Environmental impact is not only about emissions, it is also about the considerable amount of trash and visual pollution created during those events.

Unfortunately for some companies no matter how you dress it, motorsport will never be a viable marketing tool.

[janvanvurpa]

It is also objectively the most boring sport on earth where 99% of the game time nothing is happening.

Fotbol is a virtual epileptic frenzy compared with American baseball. And relatively jumping compared to American (so called) Football..
3.2 seconds average play followed by 1-10 minutes of standing around...

Canadian curling is action packed compared to the Merikuhn sports.

[Rallyper]

Exactly. It's perception.

Funnily enough a couple of months ago I came across the document below while randomly looking up big companies that I thought theoretically could be involved in rallying. I came across this document from Telia (no doubt many of you are familiar with it, but it's a big phone services provider across Scandinavia and the Baltic states, prime rally country) where they particularly rule out motor sport sponsorship in their group marketing instructions:



From Page 4: https://www.teliacompany.com/globalassets/telia-company/documents/about-telia-company/public-policy/group-instruction---sponsorships-and-donations.pdf

Look at the stuff motors sport joins on that list... This is why at least the upper level rallying going electric in some form is not a choice, it's an absolute necessity if the WRC in particular is going to continue to exist in a few years. Hopefully we can get away with just going down the hybrid route and retaining the ICE element, not going full electric.

Well, those arguments from Telia just show their lack of understanding. In their eyes only motorsports has "significant negative environmental impacts"? RUBBISH!

If they said "we don´t like motorsports so we don´t sponsor it" I wouldn´t say anything. It´s their thing. But those arguments are not true. All sports does significant negative negative impact..

[denkimi]

Exactly. It's perception.

Funnily enough a couple of months ago I came across the document below while randomly looking up big companies that I thought theoretically could be involved in rallying. I came across this document from Telia (no doubt many of you are familiar with it, but it's a big phone services provider across Scandinavia and the Baltic states, prime rally country) where they particularly rule out motor sport sponsorship in their group marketing instructions:

From Page 4: https://www.teliacompany.com/globalassets/telia-company/documents/about-telia-company/public-policy/group-instruction---sponsorships-and-donations.pdf

Look at the stuff motors sport joins on that list... This is why at least the upper level rallying going electric in some form is not a choice, it's an absolute necessity if the WRC in particular is going to continue to exist in a few years. Hopefully we can get away with just going down the hybrid route and retaining the ICE element, not going full electric.
all that means is they have a CEO or some other high executive who is not a motorsport fan.

al that needs to happen is for some good friend to take that CEO to some rally's, get them to like it and boom, telia wil sponsor motorsport.

[Mirek]

It wouldn't help anything to pretend that it's not an issue. It is a very real issue and the number of such companies is growing steadily. Add to that current imperfect situation of car industry. Previous years were perfect but 2018 sales already got into negative numbers - with few exceptions of course. It's likely that the situation will not get any better in 2019 or 2020 but we'll see.

[Rallyper]

I don´t think we are pretending it´s not an issue. But we are trying to argue why they are more or less wrong not supporting even motorsports.

Carsales have been up and down almost since they started selling cars. Racing with cars still is a very big sport.

[Mirek]

I don´t think we are pretending it´s not an issue. But we are trying to argue why they are more or less wrong not supporting even motorsports.

That's quite a bold claim. I would not dare to say that.

[Rallyper]

That's quite a bold claim. I would not dare to say that.

I´m talking about this forums members.

[Jarek Z]

Most European countries had already either completely banned or restricted the tobacco advertising coming into the new millennium. The EU directive for the complete ban came into effect in 2005.

The number of big rally teams that we lost then is enormous - Marlboro, Camel, Rothmans, Bastos, Gitanes, 555, the list goes on... Motorsport sponsorship was actually the only good thing about cigarettes :)

https://2img.net/h/i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/omeryetis/427457_10150617315087695_627102694_9415784_1177356 579_n.jpg

[jbmarcus21]

#WRC #DAKAR ** GAME CONTEST ** with PLANETEMARCUS : One question to win Peugeot 2008DKR Loeb Dakar 2016 ► http://bit.ly/2AifTe0

[Rally Power]

I agree the real reason why they are not joining is political. Just like VW exit was.
For Skoda it's about 60% the money related to coming investments (and the PR/shareholders effect if they use large sums on WRC at same time). The rest is related to the current rules cycle coming to an end in 2-3? years. The new rules definitely need to include some hybridization else WRC ends like WRX did.

The WRX is failing after the sudden annoucement of a switch to EV’s, just like Le Mans main category has turned into a joke (3 of 4 manus have pull out) due to the extreme costs of higth tec hybrid systems.

We’re still in WRC new rules first cycle (2017-19) and even if some insist the second cycle should be shortened (taking one year from the planned 2020-22), there’s no need to rush into EV’s or hybrids; what mostly mater is to avoid a disruption in the series that could make fans, manus and teams running off.

Btw, let’s not take the eco-political correctness too seriously; Nascar is probably one of the most pollutant motorsport series in the world, yet it’s by far the most popular one and an amazing sponsor’s magnet.

[Tarmop]

Wasn`t it the opposite with WRX? Manuf. wanting to introduce new technologies and not interested in internal combustion anymore? And WEC, well, VAG was really succesful, when pulling out, so one could say, that with the current regulations, they took almost everything they could. Also they are still a present in GTE. They also did pull out of other series`. There were also talks this year from Peugeot, that they are planning a return when new rules are introduced. Cost is an issue and always will be, but stagnation or worse, going back, isn`t a solution also.

[mknight]

The WRX is failing after the sudden annoucement of a switch to EV’s, just like Le Mans main category has turned into a joke (3 of 4 manus have pull out) due to the extreme costs of higth tec hybrid systems.

We’re still in WRC new rules first cycle (2017-19) and even if some insist the second cycle should be shortened (taking one year from the planned 2020-22), there’s no need to rush into EV’s or hybrids; what mostly mater is to avoid a disruption in the series that could make fans, manus and teams running off.

Btw, let’s not take the eco-political correctness too seriously; Nascar is probably one of the most pollutant motorsport series in the world, yet it’s by far the most popular one and an amazing sponsor’s magnet.


1. WRX sequence of events:
a) FIA delays EVs from 2020 to 2021, quite some time after they were announced for 2020
b) Audi then Peugeot withdraw (Ford left a year before), after that VW leaves too cause there is nobody to fight

(so basically what Tarmop says, manus left cause the rules were not changing)

2. WRC rules:
Originally the rules were 2017-2019 and the extension was optional 2 years, which seems to have changed to 3. Keeping these rules for "just a few years" is imo part of the reason why Skoda didn't join. Note that this came AFTER VW leadership said that WRC needs hybrids or EVs. (Skoda is owned by VW as most know)

3. Nascar is basically all about US, WRC is very much Europe-centered. (teams (and rules banning some testing outside of europe), rallies, fans)

[dnb]

Nascar is probably one of the most pollutant motorsport series in the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNR3kTq_pc
There are also [monster] trucks and until they've been banned, WRC is nothing. And what about planes and fighter aircrafts or even spaceplanes. Oops, not a sport anymore...

[Rally Power]

Wasn`t it the opposite with WRX? Manuf. wanting to introduce new technologies and not interested in internal combustion anymore? And WEC, well, VAG was really succesful, when pulling out, so one could say, that with the current regulations, they took almost everything they could. Also they are still a present in GTE. They also did pull out of other series`. There were also talks this year from Peugeot, that they are planning a return when new rules are introduced. Cost is an issue and always will be, but stagnation or worse, going back, isn`t a solution also.

Untill VW and Peugeot get in on a full scale, the WRX was doing fine; the problems came from those 2 wanting a full switch to EV’s, which no one else supported. After Audi and, mainly, Porsche pull out from Le Mans, the organizers realize they needed a less ambitious regulation, with more simple and less expensive hybrid cars, as they’ve now announced.

Honestly, I can’t see how the WRC is stagnating when we’re only in the 3rd year of one of the most fantastic rally eras; this urgent need for discussing the future regs is a total nonsense, just like all the allegedly Eco BS were facing in our lives.

[T16]

Honestly, I can’t see how the WRC is stagnating when we’re only in the 3rd year of one of the most fantastic rally eras; this urgent need for discussing the future regs is a total nonsense, just like all the allegedly Eco BS were facing in our lives.[/QUOTE]

There are two ways to answer this:

Firstly, from a TV / talkability / three drivers heading into the final round as potential champions point-of-view, 2018 was a good year. You can watch WRC live and because they basically cover the top ten drivers then go to the next stage, where driver number one is about to start, it’s non stop excitement.

But secondly, watching from stage side (which many of us absolutely love to do), we only get to see 10-12 cars and this is shit.
There are simply not enough teams and privateers who want to run the current cars.

I guess it comes down to what the promoters and FIA want; good TV or good entertainment for those watching stage side.

I’ve said it recently, the sport is on a knife-edge in terms of participants, it has been for a few years and it probably will be unless the manufacturers all see more value in terms of its exposure. That’s why it’s important to plan ahead and discuss the future regs and it needs to happen sooner than later.

[Rally Power]

1. WRX sequence of events:
a) FIA delays EVs from 2020 to 2021, quite some time after they were announced for 2020
b) Audi then Peugeot withdraw (Ford left a year before), after that VW leaves too cause there is nobody to fight

(so basically what Tarmop says, manus left cause the rules were not changing)

2. WRC rules:
Originally the rules were 2017-2019 and the extension was optional 2 years, which seems to have changed to 3. Keeping these rules for "just a few years" is imo part of the reason why Skoda didn't join. Note that this came AFTER VW leadership said that WRC needs hybrids or EVs. (Skoda is owned by VW as most know)

3. Nascar is basically all about US, WRC is very much Europe-centered. (teams (and rules banning some testing outside of europe), rallies, fans)

You’re wrong:

1. a)b) The delay was due to not having the mandatory 4 manus entries for the 2020 eWRX in August 2018, as only VW and Peugeot (not Audi) showed their interest. Meanwhile Audi left and Peugeot didn’t wait for the new 2021 entry deadline (March 2019, with a reduced 3 manus requirement).

2. The rules were always about two 3 years cycles (that’s why Toyota anouced their commitement till the end of 2022). This year, some voices were heard (like VW’s Smeets) asking for shorteneing the 2nd cycle and have EV’s new rules appliyed at 2022 beginning.

3. Nascar is also popular in Canada, Mexico, Central and South America and even in some Asian countries.

[Tarmop]

When FP pulledout last year, they said they are all for the EV rx, just needs to be more specific and they don't see a point wasting money atm. There were talks about 7? potential interested teams i think. I'm a petrolhead and always will be, but motorsport, especially factory-motorsport has to move together with current roadcars. Fine-tuning a turbo engineis nice, but for a manuf. (stopping diesel engines in roadcars, promising full EV in some years ) point of view unfortunately not.

[Barreis]

there's no fame about the sport. they should let r5 to be top class (with the same price as now) and let the entry list be more then 100 cars on every rally. let the national crews compete. what to say when the top car can drive about 10 crews. who want to look that?! anyone can play football/soccer and that's why it is so popular. look at tour de france/giro/ etc, we have more then 100 riders with the same equipment but they don't have the abilities for winning. there's no way the sport will be big in medias and attractive for huge crowds and manufacturers again with four drivers that can win and every season the same champ. and this four guys are likable in medias like grandma's a$$. we are all here hard core fans. and manufacturers wnat medias around the sport.

[the sniper]

Btw, let’s not take the eco-political correctness too seriously; Nascar is probably one of the most pollutant motorsport series in the world, yet it’s by far the most popular one and an amazing sponsor’s magnet.

NASCAR has actually been suffering in many respects in recent years, its decline has been widely publicised. Here's one article: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nascar-auto-racing/thatsracin/article221945860.html Admittedly its problems aren't 'eco-political correctness' because many Americans don't seem to worry themselves about or believe in such issues, but it's incorrect to suggest that it's doing overly well.


there's no fame about the sport. they should let r5 to be top class (with the same price as now) and let the entry list be more then 100 cars on every rally. let the national crews compete. what to say when the top car can drive about 10 crews. who want to look that?! anyone can play football/soccer and that's why it is so popular. look at tour de france/giro/ etc, we have more then 100 riders with the same equipment but they don't have the abilities for winning. there's no way the sport will be big in medias and attractive for huge crowds and manufacturers again with four drivers that can win and every season the same champ. and this four guys are likable in medias like grandma's a$$. we are all here hard core fans. and manufacturers wnat medias around the sport.

I imagine most of the current WRC crews would still make up the regular top ten finishers on any given WRC rally anyway. We'd probably have the same top three to five drivers as we have now in contention for wins, but just driving slower, less spectacular R5 cars... Great. And they'd only show the top 15 cars anyway, so the 80+ also-rans would get no more interest/coverage than now for their €/$/£250K+ budgets. WRC2, where all R5 comers are already welcome, has been largely dominated by a small number of works crews with Drivers that I doubt many would describe as the best of the best in rallying. Why would the current WRC guys not dominate that class too?

I'm not discounting the idea that the R5s or a development thereof becomes the main class at some point, it might become a necessity in time, like Group B to Group A in 1986/1987. I just don't think it's desirable in the short term in comparison to what we have now, which could possibly be the last golden age of rallying. It's spectacular, enjoy it before it's gone rather than wishing it away prematurely...

[Rally Power]

NASCAR has actually been suffering in many respects in recent years, its decline has been widely publicised. Here's one article: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nascar-auto-racing/thatsracin/article221945860.html Admittedly its problems aren't 'eco-political correctness' because many Americans don't seem to worry themselves about or believe in such issues, but it's incorrect to suggest that it's doing overly well.

Nascar may not be on its peak but it’s totally correct to say it’s still a quite popular series. I’ve mentioned it to underline how demagogic some companies are when they boycott motorsport for alleged ecological reasons.

We’re all petrolheads and the main point here is not about ignoring the environmental issues; is about having well thought out improvements in Rally, rather than ineffective moves motivated by mainstream sound-bytes.

Eco friendly policies and even instructive campaigns (for many spectators being on a rally it’s a rare time in the nature) can actually be promoted in Rally without this need to rush into EV’s or expensive hybrids that pottencially will damage the sport.

[giu canbera]

Is ERC in a good position right now? Cuz when comparing WRX to ERX you see the difference. TONS of privateers vs 3 (now zero) "semi manufacturer backed teams" and thats the problem IMO.
In EuroRX FINE.. the guys who were winning races were the richist ones with the strongests cars (an ex-Ken Block car, a Hansen-Peugeot, a VWSweden car and an EKS Audi 'costumer') but thats the way it should be.
I only watched 2 ERC races this year on "youtube" so Im not thaaaat familiar with the series..
Is it at a Good place right now? Cuz it looks more interesting when you have more privateers running the events (compared to the WRC series).
WTCC had to adopt, WEC is adopting, F1 will have to change... WRX and WRC will have to change to survive.
Not talking bout EVs and stuff.. but you gotta bring costs down and have cheaper cars, cheaper entry fees etc
Maybe reduce the number of races outside Europe....

[Tarmop]

We are talking about WRC, the pinacle of rallying. It`s nice to have privateers yes, R5 is excellent for them (and there we can also see different evolutions, not to mention factory cars vs private cars), they are present in WRC2 and in ERC they are the main class, but the best of the best should be in a factory car which is and should be a piece of engineering. If it dies, well, then so be it.

This should illustrate the level quite well, Kopecky was 9. after this stage (+1:10.5), won the event later on. Having the likes of Tänak, Ogier, Neuville and other WRC drivers in a R5 would just mean different cars, not more factory top drivers in top cars.
https://www.ewrc-results.com/results/44263-adac-rallye-deutschland-2018/?s=181175&sct=222

[Norm75]

I get the argument, everyone reminisces about group B, and the current regs are probably the closest we've got since. Trouble is, with such specialised cars and few works teams, there aren't enough seats to go round.

With these regs, it can be a career killer, or even non starter.
Perhaps, if group B didn't die, there are a few drivers who's careers would have been much shorter than they were, with the introduction of group A and a more level and accessable class that was not as difficult to get involved in

[AnttiL]

ERC is like WRC2, no one does a complete season, drivers don't have to go against each other in every event and budget will dictate if you can go for the title or not.

[Tarmop]

And what would guarantee, that there would be more? I`m more than certain, that the same names would be in the same teams and not addition to the likes of Huttunen, Rovanperä etc...they would have the chance to pay for their services or go private but like we know, a factory car is in constant development, be it WRC2 or WRC. A winning car today could be the last tomorrow. Would the likes of MG and VW take part as a factory team, is another question, but still, probably no, because of the first part- constant development and salaries are costly enough. Toyota does it with 100mil, M-Sport does it with how much money? Fiesta WRC is/was around 600k-700 eur i believe and C3 WRC was around 1 mil.?

[deephouse]

Again VW was quite loud about whole EV thing in WRC, despite that they even not competing. I say that they don't have the right to say anything until they will be in again for a full seasons.

My opinion is that if whole thing would go in R5 direction than it is possible of new manufacturers coming since it would be a lot cheaper than it is now. Now you have Skoda, VW, Hyundai, Ford, Citroen with up to date cars. And I'm sure some would join that squad - like Toyota, Proton, Peugeot, maybe even Opel, Mitsubishi. Maybe some chinese companies.

[Tarmop]

Would you care to elaborate, how much cheaper it would be to have everything like it is now, apart from cars ofc, 4 teams, 10 (12) factory cars driving around the world for the titles? And would, lets say... Skoda take part in that case from all the 14 rounds and would they use their current lineup, when we have 2 unemployed/benched rallywinners and a podium contender from the main class? And lets not talk about privateers in a 208 against the might of 2019 factory Fabia piloted by Ogier for example.

[Rally Power]

And what would guarantee, that there would be more? I`m more than certain, that the same names would be in the same teams and not addition to the likes of Huttunen, Rovanperä etc...they would have the chance to pay for their services or go private but like we know, a factory car is in constant development, be it WRC2 or WRC. A winning car today could be the last tomorrow. Would the likes of MG and VW take part as a factory team, is another question, but still, probably no, because of the first part- constant development and salaries are costly enough. Toyota does it with 100mil, M-Sport does it with how much money? Fiesta WRC is/was around 600k-700 eur i believe and C3 WRC was around 1 mil.?

Come on, a 300k difference is 50% more; is the C3 made of gold?

On the rest you, and many others to be fair, are spot on about current WRC cars/regs: they’re exclusive once it’s the top rally formula of the top rally series. Steping down to a less expensive class could grant a larger winning pack for a couple of years, but after that we probably would have only 2 or 3 manus and a handful of drivers with real chances, like most of the time.

Obviously those fearing WRC current costs have a point, but the truth is that the sport can’t also afford to make new rules and bin state of the art cars every 3 years. Like sniper said, let’s enjoy the most of this fantastic WRC era, hoping it won’t end too briefly.

P.S.: In a couple of hours, Gryazin will be Live on YT announcing next year program https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl4Fyn44iMU

[AnttiL]

Breen with a video https://www.facebook.com/127662367852/posts/hope-you-guys-can-understand-the-silence-for-the-last-weeks-its-been-quite-tough/10157033122132853/

[Googol]

The good thing in making R5 as the main class would be that there are a decent amount of rather equal cars, and no one has bothered to put ridiculous amounts of money into them, so even for newcomer manufacturers it might be a bit easier to catch. But as soon as it was made the main class, someone would be willing to put ridiculous amounts of money into them. And then they wouldn't be so cheap anymore. Of course, R5 has more limiting regulations, so the minimum cost of running a car might be a bit less, and the benefit from extra millions wouldn't be so big. But nevertheless, a main class that costs the same amount as R5 now just can't happen.

The idea that motorsport is next to the devil now, but making a few top cars electric would make it a saint is absolutely ridiculous. Of course, there are a lots of dumb people deciding about their own and others' money, so as a PR stunt it might be worth it. A huge majority of emissions from global motorsport comes from moving the circus from one place to another. And then there is the local low level motorsport, which won't be electric any time soon. These combined, the benefit of a few electric cars disappears like a fart into Sahara.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The Breen update is so sad. The guy loves rally so much. Hope he gets something sorted soon. The WRC needs characters like him. :(

Nice mention for his co-driver too:

@Craig_Breen
Something else I needed to add.. My partner in crime @scottmartinat is moving on to pastures new next year, and I would just like to thank him from the bottom of my heart for not only being ultra professional, one of the best friends a man could ask for..

[Mirek]

My opinion is that if whole thing would go in R5 direction than it is possible of new manufacturers coming since it would be a lot cheaper than it is now. Now you have Skoda, VW, Hyundai, Ford, Citroen with up to date cars. And I'm sure some would join that squad - like Toyota, Proton, Peugeot, maybe even Opel, Mitsubishi. Maybe some chinese companies.

The whole R5 class would get much more expensive for all those hundreds of privateers if WRC teams start to use R5. Keep it as it is for good, please.


The good thing in making R5 as the main class would be that there are a decent amount of rather equal cars, and no one has bothered to put ridiculous amounts of money into them, so even for newcomer manufacturers it might be a bit easier to catch. But as soon as it was made the main class, someone would be willing to put ridiculous amounts of money into them. And then they wouldn't be so cheap anymore. Of course, R5 has more limiting regulations, so the minimum cost of running a car might be a bit less, and the benefit from extra millions wouldn't be so big. But nevertheless, a main class that costs the same amount as R5 now just can't happen.

The idea that motorsport is next to the devil now, but making a few top cars electric would make it a saint is absolutely ridiculous. Of course, there are a lots of dumb people deciding about their own and others' money, so as a PR stunt it might be worth it. A huge majority of emissions from global motorsport comes from moving the circus from one place to another. And then there is the local low level motorsport, which won't be electric any time soon. These combined, the benefit of a few electric cars disappears like a fart into Sahara.

Basically agree except I don't believe that making R5 more expensive for all privateers is worth making them the top class.

I personally don't believe a top level of motorsport can be made cheap no matter the rules. The teams will alwas spend how much is worth the title - and that's the more the more audience is watching, i.e. with more expensive and more spectacular cars the teams can spend more than with boring cars nobody really likes to watch (i.e. British championship few years back).

[AnttiL]

Correct me if I'm wrong: the R5 cars aren't as durable as the WRC cars thanks to cheaper parts being used. Therefore, if we sat down Ogier, Neuville, Tänak et al in R5's with a mission to go for the title, we would see a lot more technical retirements and/or careful driving. We would also see more punctures due to different types of tyres being used. A major accident in an R5 car could result in worse injuries than the same in a WRC car with more width and side padding.

[Mirek]

Works run R5 cars are pretty reliable. Usually it's the privateers who has the reliability issues because they don't have same service options as he works teams do. Generally the R5 would be likely somewhat less reliable but not that much.

For the record Kopecký never ever retired with technical problem with R5 car no mater where - in four years and eight different championships. That must be an all time record for the sport and it's not yet broken.

You can use WRC ytres on R5 cars. No problem with that from technical point of view. You would only a bit limit the performance by using heavy tyres.

In case of side impact the current WRC cars are safer but arguably most of their accidents also happen in higher speed therefore it's sort of unknown. I think that nobody including FIA is able to say if current WRC cars or R5 cars are generally safer.