Toyota announces WRC plans

[Mekola]

And when is expected to set the return to WRC? 2016? 2017?

[Mirek]

2017

[Lundefaret]

Maybe it's just me but I think the car is too soft and still somewhat underpowered.

Regarding the chassis looking soft, this is just set up.
For some reason they are trying a maximum soft set up, and what also looks like a higher ride height, and the car looks very "heavy" and "sluggish".
Why?
Well, all data is good data, if You know what to look for.
Being a bumpy road it could be interesting to find out where You gain or loose with either a stiff o a soft set up.

Here is a video from the same test but with a "normal" tarmac set up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSEnDpSd144

[Mirek]

Thanks, clear difference but still it doesn't look fast at all. Let's see how they can progress...

[AL14]

Speed apart I think Lundefaret will appreciate the understeering though. :)

[Lundefaret]

Speed apart I think Lundefaret will appreciate the understeering though. :)

Excessive understeer is off course not good, but excessive oversteer is worse when You are on the stop watch. :)

[Lundefaret]

Thanks, clear difference but still it doesn't look fast at all. Let's see how they can progress...


Agree that it does not look fast, but when You dont have other competitors in different cars to compare to, it can be difficult to judge the speed.

To me the dampers/springs (this is very subjective and is difficult to conclude on not being there) in either soft or stiff set up looks a little to linear on the compression damping. The car bottoms out, and does not seem perfect over the big bumps.

[dimviii]

blown turbo at testing
https://www.facebook.com/304943716370639/videos/424393461092330

[dimviii]

Camilli
https://youtu.be/4_NDy7m6hxQ

[Lundefaret]

BOS Dampers:
One question:
Mäkinen has quoted that he intends to use BOS dampers on the Toyota WRC.

In - i think it was 2008 - I did a research story trying to find out what went wrong with Subaru/Prodrive, and why Petter stopped winning after 2005.
There was off course several aspects, but one thing - that was confirmed also by other people than Petter, was that the BOS dampers was not up to scratch.
I believe the problem was that they overheated on the stages, which off course drives the performance in a negative direction.
Why this was not fixed, I do not know, but I know that Prodrive as a company wasn´t the worlds best payer off bills at that time, so if it was a lack of founds heading the BOS way, I am not sure.

Prodives own proof of not thinking that their BOS dampers was the best (or was it economical factors?), came when they entered in a later rally, to prove Petter wrong in that the 08-car was slow. The car was then on Öhlins.

It would be interesting to know why Mäkinen will choose Öhlins, and not one of the more straight forward choices like Reiger, Öhlins or Sachs.

[TWRC]

BOS Dampers:
One question:
Mäkinen has quoted that he intends to use BOS dampers on the Toyota WRC.

In - i think it was 2008 - I did a research story trying to find out what went wrong with Subaru/Prodrive, and why Petter stopped winning after 2005.
There was off course several aspects, but one thing - that was confirmed also by other people than Petter, was that the BOS dampers was not up to scratch.
I believe the problem was that they overheated on the stages, which off course drives the performance in a negative direction.
Why this was not fixed, I do not know, but I know that Prodrive as a company wasn´t the worlds best payer off bills at that time, so if it was a lack of founds heading the BOS way, I am not sure.

Prodives own proof of not thinking that their BOS dampers was the best (or was it economical factors?), came when they entered in a later rally, to prove Petter wrong in that the 08-car was slow. The car was then on Öhlins.

It would be interesting to know why Mäkinen will choose Öhlins, and not one of the more straight forward choices like Reiger, Öhlins or Sachs.
If I'm not mistaken, Citroën has been using BOS or their own, but BOS-derived dampers for years, from the C2 S1600 to the DS3 WRC. What's intersting is PSA's turn to Öhlins as of late, but that's OFF here. :D As far as that goes, I think that with the right amount of money, all the mentioned companies are capable of delivering a damper that is competitive with the others.

[AMSS]

Mäkinen wants to use BOS because they have used them on their Gr.N Subaru, the main reason I think is Lasse Lampi is BOS importer for the nordic countries and Lasse has a long history with Mäkinen.
This is actually something alot of people wonder about as there in all fairness are more established suppliers out ther.. like the ones you mentioned for instance
Citroen buy various parts from BOS for their WRC cars and assembles them themselves(same as they used to do with Exe-Tc in the past until ~2010)

[Rallyper]

Dampers as a whole is kind of rocket-science, I guess. But - and it´s a but - the parts one of each other isn´t rocket science. So why dont they build their own dampers/suspension sets? To my knowledge there is so many technicians working with dampers on daily basis who could put together proper equipment, isn´t it?

[danon]

Toyota Yaris WRC - Test Italy 2015 Day 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1bWBACnqsw

[Lundefaret]

Toyota Yaris WRC - Test Italy 2015 Day 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1bWBACnqsw

Wow! That was something else, looks much faster. Set up looks good, maybe a little slow on the rebound from side to side, but looking WRC fast.
Some small driver errors at:
0:57 A little bit to early turn ins and to early apex points in the corners before leads to a to wide exit at 0.57 where the weight is heading in the wrong direction, leading to a bit much sideways force to late in the corner. But this is in minute detail.
1:05 Missing the apex point. Has trouble with the direction change of the weight/forces, so sideways force pushes the car away from the apex point, and delays acceleration. But if the inside is very bumpy, difficult to see in the film, this could be on purpose.
2:06 Turns in to early, and the corner is too long, so he ends up going straight to the outside missing the apex, and delaying acceleration. Maybe not a biggy, but this is how You loose to Ogier.
2:40 Hitting a bump on the inside of the hairpin, affecting acceleration in the most important part of the corner - the early exit. Leading me to think that it could be faster with a wider line trough the corner, keeping 30-40 cm away from the apex. This is why 1.05 could be on purpose. (Much better at 3.53)
3:14 Maybe a little too much body roll, and a little to little rebound on the body roll? Could have had som progression in the anti roll bar maybe?
The driving gets faster at the end of the video. Either a change of driver, or a progression of driving and/or set up.
All in all very good, and if it had not been for the video saying Camilli, I would have guessed Hirvonen - at least for the last part. Cool!

[danon]

Perfectly analyzed... ;)

[Mirek]

Compared to previous days it's indeed like day and night.

[Rallyper]

For me it looked like they didn´t push at all the first days...? Maybe also on purpose. Which I couldn´t reccon.

[Eli]

Toyota Yaris WRC - Test Italy 2015 Day 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1bWBACnqsw

wow looks really pretty over there and also the roads, that's where they should do Rally Italia and not Sardegna.

[Andre Oliveira]

Again the K-AM 1422. Looks better than the K-AM 1411

[makinen_fan]

Some photos from the gravel test in Spain
https://www.facebook.com/joseignacio.ruizalgar.9/media_set?set=a.1777787522448139.1073741871.100006 507259893&type=3&pnref=story

K-AM 1422 here as well

[itix]

wow looks really pretty over there and also the roads, that's where they should do Rally Italia and not Sardegna.
Italy has so many beautiful regions. Sardegna is an interesting one but maybe not classically beautiful like the north in the alps.

Doing rallies in the mountains has safety implications I guess though which is probably the main reason rallies aren't held in Northern Italy's alp ranges as the drops are massive and would kill anyone who went off.

Don't get me wrong... I agree with you, the mountains of the North are a much better backdrop than Sardegna.

[jonkka]

Apparently Makinen intends to base Toyota operation in Jyvaskyla.

Source (in Finnish, I am afraid): http://yle.fi/uutiset/paivakoti_ei_palaa_rallitalliksi__toyotan_ja_tommi _makisen_ykkosvaihtoehto_on_uudet_tilat_jyvaskylas sa/8347646

I understand the pro's but I am afraid Tommi doesn't appreciate the con's.

[janvanvurpa]

Apparently Makinen intends to base Toyota operation in Jyvaskyla.

Source (in Finnish, I am afraid): http://yle.fi/uutiset/paivakoti_ei_palaa_rallitalliksi__toyotan_ja_tommi _makisen_ykkosvaihtoehto_on_uudet_tilat_jyvaskylas sa/8347646

I understand the pro's but I am afraid Tommi doesn't appreciate the con's.

And what might you think the biggest cons are?

[Mintexmemory]

I think Sardinia is perfect because of the variety of terrain and compact nature - this year's Saturday programme was a perfect day's spectating.

[jonkka]

And what might you think the biggest cons are?

Location. Though it's good for testing, as Tommi says, it's remote. They'll have longer commute and supply routes to events which costs more and team personnel and equipment will spend more time on the road.

But most importantly, what about team personnel? Who are they going to hire for key positions? I see only bad options:
-locals (good for manual labour, sure)
-people willing to relocate to icy reaches (whose intellect that puts into doubt)
-people working remotely from civilization (not an ideal way to work in a team)

[Sulland]

Folks, relax. We are not talking a remote dark ages place here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyv%C3%A4skyl%C3%A4

Jyvaskyla has 130 000 people, university (that he can cooperate with), airport and it takes aprox 2,5 hours to get to Helsinki by car if you need to. So logistically no issues in my book. Everything does not have to be located in downtown Europe to be a winner!

I support Tommi in using his country, that has shown over the last 30 years they have a special gift in bringing up people that are quick.
Why should they not be able to making quick and durable cars as well!

[Lundefaret]

Location. Though it's good for testing, as Tommi says, it's remote. They'll have longer commute and supply routes to events which costs more and team personnel and equipment will spend more time on the road.

But most importantly, what about team personnel? Who are they going to hire for key positions? I see only bad options:
-locals (good for manual labour, sure)
-people willing to relocate to icy reaches (whose intellect that puts into doubt)
-people working remotely from civilization (not an ideal way to work in a team)

- The "locals" are the people behind Nokia.
- Icy reaches will let them be able to do frequent tests on snow, they can test on tarmac in fall and spring to simulate the Monte, and also on frozen lakes.
- Jyvaskyla: One of the nicest towns I've been in, and great potential to take this project personal - in a good way. Passion and team spirit!

To "isolate" the group in Finland can be positive, because You can build a family that work and live together.

Compare to the Hyundai WRC factory situated in a German industrial area.
No Germans care of who the tenants are in that building.
Its a LOOONG way to go to test on relevant gravel roads.
And its difficult to build up that family feeling.

Finland is the rally capitol og the world, and I would believe a bigger percentage of Finns know who Loeb is, than the French.
I think the Toyota WRC factory in Finland has the potential of being truly great!

[Simmi]

Genuine question - is Finland good for general varied gravel testing or simply for Rally Finland?

I think a lot of the testing implications seem to be moot as, apart from shaking down their cars locally, all the teams seem to travel to do any serious pre-event testing. I doubt they will do a load of local tarmac tests for example.

I do agree that Jyvaskyla is a nice place and the locals will not only appreciate it, but actively try to help the team.

[COD]

Well, M-sport is located in the middle of nowhere in a remote island and they have managed fine. Don't think travelling costs are an issue for Toyota. Ok, it might them one more day to get ti central Europe. But a lot of material is airlifted anyway, so no big deal. Sourcing people. Well, the opportunity to work for top WRC-team is such a draw that that should not be a problem either

[janvanvurpa]

Location. Though it's good for testing, as Tommi says, it's remote. They'll have longer commute and supply routes to events which costs more and team personnel and equipment will spend more time on the road.

But most importantly, what about team personnel? Who are they going to hire for key positions? I see only bad options:
-locals (good for manual labour, sure)
-people willing to relocate to icy reaches (whose intellect that puts into doubt)
-people working remotely from civilization (not an ideal way to work in a team)

Jonka I looked on map for Puuppola and I see that in addition to millions of km of fantastic gravel roads, there are actually some things that look like highways...yeah! Really! And i bet those highways go someplace---eventually...:rolleyes:
But it's nothing that planning can't solve---and a operation like this is really ALL about planning, so no problem.

On the City web sajt it says they actually have some schools:

The University of Jyväskylä and the JAMK University of Applied Sciences are among the most popular higher education institutions in Finland.


That means at least there is electricity and phones and probably even internet connection.
And I bet it works..

You do bring up very serious points about finding people willing to relocate and live in remote place by normal civilised standards but maybe we can agree that for rally driving, rally mechanicing and especially basic designs that a absolute need is the ability to concentrate and to be what I call "Mission directed"...to concentrate on the task.

Certainly anybody applying to work there must be aware of that and have worked out the balancing act in their head needed..


Nothing at a high level like this is a 9 to 5 job..

My only thought is the enormous difficulty--the virtual impossibility---of rapidly learning Finnish for those times when the imported talent is not busy designing, inventing, welding, machining, testing..

But with a University there I imagine that the imported talent can have opportunity to meet and get to know one of Finlands best home grown products: the friendly Finnish women...:love:

And then they will probably be very happy employees...:beer:

[danon]

Tommi Mäkinen - buying decisions next week... http://yle.fi/uutiset/tommi_makinen_varasi_rallitallille_tontin_kirrista __ostopaatos_ensi_viikolla/8361901

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@tmgofficial at Tokyo Motor Show with Yaris Gravel Test version ..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgZ8c4WEAIn7ut.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgZ8a0WEAAZsRb.jpg

[Mirek]

Words can't describe how ugly that thing is. Hopefully it works well at least .

[janvanvurpa]

Words can't describe how ugly that thing is. Hopefully it works well at least .

More beautiful black wheels..:rolleyes:

Got to listen to the 18 year old fashion consultants.

(barf)
Why do wheel manufacturers go along with this stupid fad---you can't even see the wheels.

[dodge33cymru]

Ha, I like black wheels, look great with many liveries IMO, especially in tarmac setup cars.

[pantealex]

@tmgofficial at Tokyo Motor Show with Yaris Gravel Test version ..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgZ8c4WEAIn7ut.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgZ8a0WEAAZsRb.jpg

Tommi´s 2017 prototype will look different...

[itix]

To be honest, I think the livery is what ruins it the most. The standard white test car looks all right, so if they can just do a white car with something like what msport did for 2014 (some curved lines along it) or something like bouffier does on his cars (but not the french flag obv.) this could be good looking...

...and pleaaaaase ditch the stupid black wheels. White rims plz (or i dunno... bright yellow, baby blue, pink... any color but black)!

[focus206]

The wheels look minuscle, I don't mind the livery though. But will we ever see this in action (other than tests)? The whole TMG/TMR thing still confuses me.

[AndyRAC]

I hope it goes better than it looks...... (Just doesn't have the WOW!! factor)

[Andre Oliveira]

It is not built with 2017 regs.

[AL14]

Does anyone know what Makkinen is doing at the moment?

VW already tested 4 times and I remember him saying at mid August everything was ready or something similar. We are in November...

[AMSS]

Does anyone know what Makkinen is doing at the moment?

VW already tested 4 times and I remember him saying at mid August everything was ready or something similar. We are in November...

They are building the new car and it should be ready for testing in March 2016, interview with him in todays Vauhdin Maailma magazine. Still no final decision in where the actual factory will be when everything is up and running. They are building the prototypes in his current location in Puuppola where they made the Subarus but it will be too small if/when they start "mass" producing.

[JAM]

Makkinen will expand it's current facilities. It's the plan B starting to work.

The new factory will not start construction before spring, because it's not even decided where will it be.

[Andre Oliveira]

I saw a twitter about Yaris R5 and GT86 R3 and WRC. GT86 WRC could be good :)

[itix]

I saw a twitter about Yaris R5 and GT86 R3 and WRC. GT86 WRC could be good :)
Who's twitter?

[dimviii]

WRC project back?
The Toyota comeback is still in random orbits. After Tommi Makinen has usurped the leadership per se and locates the project in Finland, the Toyota Motorsport GmbH in Cologne seems to have set the last WRC activity.

In twelve months, Toyota plans to present the car to the FIA ​​for homologation, by which he will celebrate in January 2017, the comeback in the World Rally Championship. Much is at stake, finally, the Japanese were for many years as the successful brand in the top league before they started with the tragedy in the Formula-1.

A similar debacle threatens now repeat in the World Rally Championship, for the way how the new WRC project is implemented, solves in the scene largely shake of the head from.

Began the Toyota Motorsport GmbH (TMG) about two years ago - initially on their own - with the development of World Rally Cars, counted as many observers with an ingenious strategy and a long-term planning of the world leader. But the appointment of Tommi Makinen as the new team manager took care of the first doubts about the implementation, because the task is enormous and more than a little motorsport forged had the former world champion is not yet passed. But none other than Toyota President Toyoda Aki heaved his Finnish rally pal personally in the office and apparently gave him not only a big budget, but also appropriate action freedoms.

Time is pressing and Mäkinen would immediately give full throttle, but unlike announced the project seems to falter. Nothing was out of the announced end of September strategy and structure plans. On the contrary. Up to the half-hearted statement to deploy the WRC project in his hometown Jyväskylä, and to build a new corporate headquarters, little has happened.
TMG will provide no engine

Worse, now seems to fail and the unloved both sides of cooperation between TMR (Tommi Mäkinen Racing) and TMG. The cold Asked Cologne troops should have no interest in, especially to serve only as a supplier of key components above the engine. In Finland, there are rumors that at TMG all activities, this revolve around the World Rally Car, will never end and even parts of the involved in the WRC TMG workforce be exempted. Mäkinen is then immediately at the French engine specialist Pipo have knocked, but its partner Hyundai raised takes the index finger and pointed to the contractually agreed exclusivity in the WRC-motor development. At the latest in March to the testwork with the Yaris WRC, Made in Finland start '. Which engine pushes the car is currently in the stars.

By the way: With TMG the first prototype should have been completed in nearly purebred 2017er trim. Thus one would have been the first team ever that the latest generation of WRC-can test. This advantage you have gambled through the mess of the past few weeks.

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/wm/nachrichten/artikel/d/2015/11/11/zieht-sich-tmg-aus-wrc-projekt-zurueck/

[Allyc85]

What a pathetic shambles...

[Sulland]

http://www.carthrottle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/gLHfVSrZ.jpg (http://www.carthrottle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/gLHfVSrZ.jpg)
Would look good!

[AndyRAC]

Where is my 'not surprised' face......???

[Simmi]

At the time the decision to run the team this way made no sense and nothing since that point has changed.

The reason there have been a lot of critical eyes cast at the project is not because people are looking for it to fail. It''s because rally fans NEED it to be a success.

[RS]

It's a long time since a non-works team was truly successful in rallying. I suppose you'd have to look back to the Gronholm/Ford era or before that Prodrive Subaru or Mitsubishi.

[RAS007]

At the time the decision to run the team this way made no sense and nothing since that point has changed.

The reason there have been a lot of critical eyes cast at the project is not because people are looking for it to fail. It''s because rally fans NEED it to be a success.

Very good point. Anyone who loves the sport should want this to be a success.

[skarderud]

Some said something "Exiting News" from Petter after Wales. Testdriver for tommi/Toyota?
Dakar in 2017 for Toyota is almost secure, maybe a parttime comeback in wrc too?

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Probably Yaris RX campaign & WRC testing.

[Sulland]

Petter still has a good PR name in Japan, so this is a good move on several levels from Toyota!

On WRC:
Will be very, very surprised if the Tommi led Rally-Gazoo operation will get full factory support and coop from the German based Yaris project.
If not, heads will be sacked from Germany by the top dog in Japan!

[dimviii]

any Finn mate to enlight us?

Teemu / Rallirinki ‏@HartusvuoriWRC

According to this, Toyota has cut budget from TMG's #YarisWRC project. Their 2017-spec car to museum: http://yle.fi/urheilu/tommi_makinen_omillaan_-_toyotan_ralliauton_rakentaminen_kolnissa_lopetett iin/8456529 … @MiikaWuorela

http://yle.fi/urheilu/tommi_makinen_omillaan_-_toyotan_ralliauton_rakentaminen_kolnissa_lopetett iin/8456529

[Simmi]

Not a surprise really then that relationships have completely broken down between the two Toyota factions. Makinen basically said the car TMG have been developing for two years is garbage. Now he's saying their engine is not up to task and is looking elsewhere.

Why were Toyota still giving any budget at all to this TMG project? Someone, somewhere has funded a two-year stillborn museum piece in the Yaris WRC. Just an unbelievable waste of everyone's time.

[OldF]

No, Tommi didn’t say its garbage. TMG started to develop the car long time before the 2017 regulations were defined. Of course the manufacturers know more before the regulations are published but I don’t think there was much to know two years ago. I’m not an expert but even the engine specification changes that much that there’s a lot of testing ahead.

At some phase Tommi considered also to have some kind of operation also in central Europe. That’s a thing I would do. The development can be anywhere but logistically it would be easier to have the operative activities somewhere in central Europe.

Keeping the headquarters in Jyväskylä has the advantage for gravel testing. By the WRC sporting regulations (http://www.fia.com/regulations/regulation/fia-world-rally-championship-119?search_api_views_fulltext=&page=1 , page 51) in the country where the WRC team is registered they can test more.

66. TESTING
66.1 PERMITTED TESTING SITES
For Manufacturers or WRC Teams registered in the Championship, testing (as defined in Art. 2.20) is permitted:
66.1.1 On a permanent testing site proposed by the Manufacturer or WRC Team before its first rally of the year and notified to the FIA. The permanent testing site must be located in the country where the Manufacturer or WRC Team rally cars are registered.
66.1.2 During a calendar year, a P1 driver may use only one permanent testing site.
66.1.3 In Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and UK.

66.3.2 In the case of a Manufacturer, a maximum of 42 days in any calendar year. This clause does not apply to testing as stated in Art. 66.1.1.

Some kind of translation.

Toyota suddenly withdraw the budget from the TMG wrc project when Toyota realized there was two separate projects going on.

The media representative Tatsuo Horikawa from Toyota still deny this has happened.

The rumours that TMG wouldn’t still be involved is wrong. TMG co-operate with Tommi mainly with the engine development as they have done until now. Our aim is to build a strong Toyota Gazoo Racing lead by Tommi, Horikawa tells YLE Urheilu (YLE sport).

Tommi has been unsatisfied with the engine co-operation with TMG and explored possibilities to co-operate with the French engine tuner Pipo Moteurs but Pipo Moteurs develop Hyundai’s wrc engine with exclusive rights.

I’ve heard the rumour about Tommi asking for engine development from Pipo Moteurs but in WRC they develop engines only for us, says Nandan.

[rv65]

.
H

[Sulland]

If Pipo is a no-go, what tuning firm could get the job done best?

would be very surprized if he could not build up this capacity in Finland or Sweden!

[macebig]

Mountune,Cosworth maybe Toyota Racing Developments(America).

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

And also Tom's.

[makinen_fan]

Some news from Toyota:

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/december-2015/toyota-3-cars/page/3035--12-12-.html

[Simmi]

It puts a few rumours to bed. Good to see some positive news come out of the Toyota camp as a lot of fans were starting to either get worried or lose faith.

Full Q&A: http://justpaste.it/pfzi

I guess we'll never know how much of that TMG Yaris finds it's way into the works car. There's probably already enough to write a book about the whole situation.

All we have left are the hours upon hours of YouTube footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8vbqwZ7mo

[EstWRC]

Finally some news! I was starting to get worried a little bit. I wonder who the drivers are they are negotiating with,I imagine one being latvala.

[AL14]

Finally some news! I was starting to get worried a little bit. I wonder who the drivers are they are negotiating with,I imagine one being latvala.

He is the ideal driver for them. Finn, a lot of experience, the only one that matches Ogier's speed, a contract ending next year and Skodas driver ready to debut in the WRC in one of the three Polos.
On the contrary I don't know if Toyota is a good choice for Jari Matti. I think he will consider it if it will be the only choice. Very much will depend on what will happen on 2016.

[AL14]

I've read the articles regarding Toyota, good to have some news from them.
The only sentence that let me some doubts is: "You don't need to have the biggest budget or team in order to win. The most important thing is relaxing and enjoying the experience."
mmmm, are you sure Tommi?

[Simmi]

Really hope Latvala jumps to Toyota. He has to try and do something different. How many people think he actually has a chance against Ogier in equal machinery?

But it's really an unknown who will drive these Yaris WRCs. 2017 driver market will be the really interesting one. Almost everyone available.

Hirvonen (and Jarmo) should get out there and do some of the testing.

[skarderud]

Mads Østberg has a 1 year deal, as he want do be in position before 2017 season.
He admitted in an intervju that he is in talks with Toyota too.

[EstWRC]

That's enough Mads! Too much him everywhere! :p

[Jasper]

Does TMG has a substitute for Camilli? Or will they continue with the current test-drivers (Lindholm, Suninen, Sarrazin...)?
I hope Suninen will be driver in 2017. Already plans for Suninen in 2016?

[Simmi]

Does TMG has a substitute for Camilli? Or will they continue with the current test-drivers (Lindholm, Suninen, Sarrazin...)?
I hope Suninen will be driver in 2017. Already plans for Suninen in 2016?

In terms of WRC machinery TMG don't have anything to test now they've been ordered to stop running the Yaris by Toyota top brass. It's now a stillborn 24-month tested museum piece. Only the CS-R3 car remains.

I doubt Makinen would want such inexperienced guys doing the factory Gazoo testing come spring.

Not sure honestly whether TMG will continue to back Suninen. He seemed to think so but not sure what they get out of it. Hopefully 2016 will be a big year for him in WRC2.

[rage82]

"I doubt Makinen would want such inexperienced guys doing the factory Gazoo testing come spring."
I think Lindholm is a proved test driver, as he has done a lot of work previously for Peugeot and Ford i believe.

[Simmi]

"I doubt Makinen would want such inexperienced guys doing the factory Gazoo testing come spring."
I think Lindholm is a proved test driver, as he has done a lot of work previously for Peugeot and Ford i believe.

Sorry was referring to Suninen in my post regarding test drivers. Certainly well aware of Lindholm.

[car]

Great news if it comes off... Meeke to Toyota:

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122137/meeke-closing-on-toyota-wrc-deal

[Simmi]

Huge news if that happens. Love it!

[dimviii]

i still worry about the Toyota project.
Now they still design the car,and at 3-4 months will be ready for testing?
and at December will be ready for homologation,and have done all testing?
hmmm very tight scedule...

If Meeke go to Toyota,i will be curious to see who will drive for Citroen at 2017 when they want to return with aiming for the championship.

[tomhlord]

i still worry about the Toyota project.
Now they still design the car,and at 3-4 months will be ready for testing?
and at December will be ready for homologation,and have done all testing?
hmmm very tight scedule...

If Meeke go to Toyota,i will be curious to see who will drive for Citroen at 2017 when they want to return with aiming for the championship.
I'd have a guess at Thierry moving to DS and Paddon being promoted within Hyundai if all goes to plan.

[Rallyper]

Well, this gonna happen in 2017:
Ogier to Citroen after WDC in 2016. Lefebvre 2nd car.
Latvala stays at VW, Mikkelsen as well. Pontus too be 3rd VW
Meeke Suninen and Bergkvist in Toyota
Huyndai and Ford remains quite all the same

[N.O.T]

Well, this gonna happen in 2017:
Ogier to Citroen after WDC in 2016. Lefebvre 2nd car.
Latvala stays at VW, Mikkelsen as well. Pontus too be 3rd VW
Meeke Suninen and Bergkvist in Toyota
Huyndai and Ford remains quite all the same

you went full GiggiGalliNo1 man... never go full GiggiGalliNo1.

[dodge33cymru]

Really hope Latvala jumps to Toyota. He has to try and do something different.

Me too, but he's in a strong position with his contract being up. A year ago he could have worried about the end of it, but if he has his 'usual' season next year he'll have his choice from at least Toyota and Citroen, you'd imagine, whilst Hyundai wouldn't be out of the picture if any of their drivers go elsewhere and I'm sure Malcolm would give him a shot if no-one else would do anyway.

[pantealex]

you went full GiggiGalliNo1 man... never go full GiggiGalliNo1.

That is not full GigiGalli, Per has 1 right (Mikkelsen has contract for 2017)

[Rally Power]

Makinen announcement it's great to give some faith to all those Gazzo Racing/TMR non believers. It's true that TMG PR's added some excused noise, but there's no doubt Makinen is able to do a great job and Toyota will be a strong player in WRC. Looking forward to 2017!

[mousti]

Just saw something about Meeke in talks with TMG

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk

[Rally Power]

Just saw something about Meeke in talks with TMG

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk

Still lots of confusion on the media over TMG role, but it's now very clear: TMG is just an external (engine) supplier to Gazoo/TMR WRC team.

[GigiGalliNo1]

http://www.maxrally.com/2015/12/04/tommi-talks-turkey

Similar answers published else where do basically a written press release to use within one company with many publications...

[Sulland]

Tommi need to do something here to clarify confusion:

Find a new name for the Toyota Rally Team. We have Gazoo Racing, TMG and TMR that might have diifferent or double roles.

But the team needs a name!

[Sulland]

TRT (Toyota Rally Team) is a good name!

If Meeke comes onboard, Tommi should put him in the GT86 R3, and quickly put a R5 car together, so they can start collecting data.
Meeke would love the GT86, and just drive for fun! What a commercial masterpiece that would be for that car!!

[omer yetis]

TRT = Turkish Radio Television :)

pls ignore my lack of knowledge...
does the GT86 fit with 2017 regulations? any chance Toyota will build that car instead of Yaris?

[pantealex]

TRT = Turkish Radio Television :)

pls ignore my lack of knowledge...
does the GT86 fit with 2017 regulations? any chance Toyota will build that car instead of Yaris?

it fit, no chance

[omer yetis]

thought tommi makkinen earlier developed a four wheel drive gt86 and tested?

[tomhlord]

thought tommi makkinen earlier developed a four wheel drive gt86 and tested?
That was one of his Group N Subaru's, butchered with a GT86 shell over the top, used to demonstrate to Mr Toyoda how exciting Toyota being back in the WRC could be.

The team are going to run a Yaris of some sort, confirmed and set in stone.

Which version is unknown as yet, potentially an all-new road going Yaris could be introduced to market in 2017, so I'm interested in see if they use that (may be too soon) or the existing model.

[pantealex]

Which version is unknown as yet, potentially an all-new road going Yaris could be introduced to market in 2017, so I'm interested in see if they use that (may be too soon) or the existing model.

New one

Why would factory team build 2017 car from old model, that WRC is marketing tool for them.
Citroen and VW will also build their cars from new road models, not from existing road car.

[tomhlord]

Why would factory team build 2017 car from old model

Part availability.

[OldF]

Part availability.

What parts? The common parts between a road car and a WRC car is the basic body shell and lights.

[tomhlord]

What parts? The common parts between a road car and a WRC car is the basic body shell and lights.
Those parts.

Hyundai stated that something like that was part of the reason the new i20 was initially set back.

Just hypothesising. WRC car needs building now to test, new road car 18+months away.

[OldF]

That was more about the production amounts of the standard car.

1.2 Model of car
All the identical cars belonging to a family (see below) and a production series distinguishable by an identical conception and an identical external general lines of the bodywork, and by an identical mechanical conception of the engine and the transmission to the wheels. At least 2500 cars must have been produced in 12 consecutive months. For all cars of the same model, the materials
of the front and rear bumpers must be identical. The same applies for the materials of the boot lid, engine bonnet and front wings, respectively. The bumpers of cars derived from the same model may not include adjustable parts.

1.3 Family of car
Different series models belonging to one and the same production series of the same anufacturer. At least 25000 cars with identical external general lines of the bodywork must have been produced
in 12 consecutive months. The material of the bodywork / shell (including the doors) and the wheelbase must also be identical. All models must be available through the normal commercial
channels of the manufacturer. The general external lines of the bodywork may vary in the
following details:
- shape and material of front and rear bumpers,
- materials of the boot lid, the engine bonnet and the front wings
- removable aerodynamic devices (spoilers, wings, sill mouldings),
- control and comfort equipment (sun roof, auxiliary lamps, door handles, exterior mirrors.),
- decorative strips and mouldings,
- left- and right-hand drive versions,
- 2- and 4-door versions, provided that these differ only with regard to the doors, door openings and B-pillar. Models with a cylinder capacity greater than 2 litres may possibly be counted for establishing the family.

[OldF]

PAAVO/PanteAlex ‏@PanteAlex (https://twitter.com/PanteAlex) 10h10 hours ago (https://twitter.com/PanteAlex/status/679137942124822529)View translation
Toyota @ksmlfi (https://twitter.com/ksmlfi) today: Homeplace Puuppola!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWzIXCaWcAAzWxb.jpg



PAAVO/PanteAlex ‏@PanteAlex (https://twitter.com/PanteAlex) 4h4 hours ago (https://twitter.com/PanteAlex/status/679234253079597056)Jyväskylä, Suomi (https://twitter.com/search?q=place%3A79127afa7377a2f0)
At least 5y in WRC for @TOYOTA_GR (https://twitter.com/TOYOTA_GR) Goal is to be same level than Tommi himself and he is 4x World Champion!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CW0f8rBWcAAiPLM.jpg

[Rallyper]

Can´t you finnish guys tell Tommi to hire Emil Bergkvist? Better driver for the future he cant find and we know it all of us. Skills on all surfaces, even tarmac.

[N.O.T]

Can´t you finnish guys tell Tommi to hire Emil Bergkvist? Better driver for the future he cant find and we know it all of us. Skills on all surfaces, even tarmac.

Why destroy Bergkvist career like that ?

[EightGear]

Can´t you finnish guys tell Tommi to hire Emil Bergkvist? Better driver for the future he cant find and we know it all of us. Skills on all surfaces, even tarmac.

We know by now Per, no need to remind us every week ;)

[liposh]

I would suggest Tommi to start negotiation with the slower one from pair Lappi -Tidemand. The faster one would receive seat in VW but the slower one would receive contract from Skoda or even something less.

[Rallyper]

We know by now Per, no need to remind us every week ;)

Reminding wouldn´t be a problem. Problem is no one seems to care about the most talented atm. Or maybe things happen though we don´t see them yet.

[Rallyper]

I would suggest Tommi to start negotiation with the slower one from pair Lappi -Tidemand. The faster one would receive seat in VW but the slower one would receive contract from Skoda or even something less.

As Tommi has to handle his money very carefully that option seems to me much more expensive.

[AL14]

As Tommi has to handle his money very carefully that option seems to me much more expensive.

I don't think that the manufacturer who sell more cars in the entire world could have some problem to pay Lappi or Tidemand.

[Rallyper]

In that case I cant see the choices already done.

[AL14]

yes but it's not a matter of money.

[Rallyper]

Ooiki doki.

[Rally Power]

In that case I cant see the choices already done.

They doesn't have to be...many things can happen to top drivers during '16 season. Latvala can get fed up with his 2nd driver status, Ogier can become greedy and find Yens more appealing than Euros, Neuville can slam Hyundai's door...the best is wait to see.

And Makinen already has a strong test driver line up to developed the car during next year.

Autosport article is pure silly season BS.

[EightGear]

Rally Finland boss joins Toyota?

http://www.hs.fi/m/urheilu/a1450762396521?jako=d1c3e4aa7b2dfbc97e2b5aca795ca6 96&ref=tw-share

It really seems like its going to be a big Finnish party.

[RAS007]

I think all this back and forth with Tommi is just a ruse so that he can announce himself as the driver for 2017.

[N.O.T]

The way the team shapes up now seems it will be like a private effort with some nobodies in, it will be a miracle if they manage to complete a whole season, IF they enter that is.

[AMSS]

As Tommi has to handle his money very carefully that option seems to me much more expensive.

Well on the other hand the worlds biggest car manufactorer chose not to use the state of the art motorsport factory they own themselves(Köln) but went with an option to make the WRC effort in a small garage in Finland with 0 infrastrucure and little knowhow. I`m just saying they have made stranger decisions...

[Lundefaret]

Well on the other hand the worlds biggest car manufactorer chose not to use the state of the art motorsport factory they own themselves(Köln) but went with an option to make the WRC effort in a small garage in Finland with 0 infrastrucure and little knowhow. I`m just saying they have made stranger decisions...

Why would Köln be a good rally base?
In Finland they have a unique access to roads for testing just metres from the factory. Its like Ferrari whith its own race track, which was a huge advantage, and ultimatly lead to a very strict ban on testing.

And why is it wrong to hire a very experienced leader of the Finnish motorsport association, the association wich i believe has been instrumental in generating the most motorsport world champions pr capita, and organizing the most successfull WRC round on the calendar?

The Finns are a very clever and recoursfull people that among other things built the worlds largest mobile phone company from almost nothing. Nokia made as large a dent in the universe as apple did years later.
And Finns have something very important called Sisu (and Im not talking about the truck).

Finland is the rally capitol of the World, and I find it very strange that several forum members find it strange to base a rally effort there. :)

[AndyRAC]

Another Nissan.....???

[jonkka]

Why would Köln be a good rally base?
In Finland they have a unique access to roads for testing just metres from the factory. Its like Ferrari whith its own race track, which was a huge advantage, and ultimatly lead to a very strict ban on testing.

Testing advantage is interesting topic and I am not most qualified one to analyze it. I know that M-Sport has it's own test track next to factory and I feel that that is the way every team should go - in addition of having on-site tests on actual roads. But I believe we have more knowledgeable members who can prove me wrong in this subject.


And why is it wrong to hire a very experienced leader of the Finnish motorsport association, the association wich i believe has been instrumental in generating the most motorsport world champions pr capita, and organizing the most successfull WRC round on the calendar?

In fact, Finnish ASN has relatively little to do with Finnish WRC Champions. Mr Jouhki has done more to this end, as Kankkunen and Makinen (4 titles each) both owe much if not everything to him.


Finland is the rally capitol of the World, and I find it very strange that several forum members find it strange to base a rally effort there. :)

It was but is no longer as French have taken (or stolen) the scepter from Finns.

[AMSS]

[QUOTE=Lundefaret;1075018]Why would Köln be a good rally base?
This is why https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktAOZpKzenM ;)

[Simmi]

Okay I'll admit it, I've never run a WRC team. But having Finnish gravel roads on your doorstep is great - if you want to set your car up for Finnish gravel roads.

There's a reason WRC teams test all over Europe, on old stages, in the region of the rally. So I think simply saying they have amazing gravel roads on their doorstep is not enough, and certainly doesn't outweigh all the positives and infrastructure TMG already has set up.

[dimviii]

Okay I'll admit it, I've never run a WRC team. But having Finnish gravel roads on your doorstep is great - if you want to set your car up for Finnish gravel roads.

There's a reason WRC teams test all over Europe, on old stages, in the region of the rally. So I think simply saying they have amazing gravel roads on their doorstep is not enough, and certainly doesn't outweigh all the positives and infrastructure TMG already has set up.

+1

[OldF]

Toyota Gazoo Racing have now about 70 employees of which about 40 are working in Finland and the rest in Germany and England.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/tommi_makinen_nappasi_autourheilun_ykkospomon/8549169


About the testing I’m quoting (and repeating)myself.

Post #809 in this thread


Keeping the headquarters in Jyväskylä has the advantage for gravel testing. By the WRC sporting regulations (http://www.fia.com/regulations/regulation/fia-world-rally-championship-119?search_api_views_fulltext=&page=1 , page 51) in the country where the WRC team is registered they can test more.

66. TESTING
66.1 PERMITTED TESTING SITES
For Manufacturers or WRC Teams registered in the Championship, testing (as defined in Art. 2.20) is permitted:
66.1.1 On a permanent testing site proposed by the Manufacturer or WRC Team before its first rally of the year and notified to the FIA. The permanent testing site must be located in the country where the Manufacturer or WRC Team rally cars are registered.
66.1.2 During a calendar year, a P1 driver may use only one permanent testing site.
66.1.3 In Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and UK.

66.3.2 In the case of a Manufacturer, a maximum of 42 days in any calendar year. This clause does not apply to testing as stated in Art. 66.1.1.

[Rallyper]

[QUOTE=Lundefaret;1075018]Why would Köln be a good rally base?
This is why https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktAOZpKzenM ;)

Good cooperator under the umbrella of Toyota. For example enginedeveloping.

No problems having the team in Finland. Why shouldn´t it? If there were one idealic place everone should be there, yes? M-Sport in Cumbria? Nah. The whole bunch can´t be in Germany or France if other factors matters more, like in this case.

[AL14]

Okay I'll admit it, I've never run a WRC team. But having Finnish gravel roads on your doorstep is great - if you want to set your car up for Finnish gravel roads.

There's a reason WRC teams test all over Europe, on old stages, in the region of the rally. So I think simply saying they have amazing gravel roads on their doorstep is not enough, and certainly doesn't outweigh all the positives and infrastructure TMG already has set up.

At this regard I keep asking myself why, if TMG was not doing the job Toyoda wanted, they didn't decide to change some of the people and or managers at TMG keeping the structure and some valuable worker and maybe sending there Tommi Makkinen and some of his fellows friends.

[Lundefaret]

Testing advantage is interesting topic and I am not most qualified one to analyze it. I know that M-Sport has it's own test track next to factory and I feel that that is the way every team should go - in addition of having on-site tests on actual roads. But I believe we have more knowledgeable members who can prove me wrong in this subject.

Finnish gravel roads ar not just "Finnish gravel roads." They have huge differences in character, just drive Ouininpuhja and You'll see that even there it changes a lot.
And Finnish gravel roads have another advantage, there are ha HUGE number of them close to the factory.



In fact, Finnish ASN has relatively little to do with Finnish WRC Champions. Mr Jouhki has done more to this end, as Kankkunen and Makinen (4 titles each) both owe much if not everything to him.
As I have understood it the person in question has had a big role in the Finnish WRC round, which is by far the most succesfull in the WRC. That can't be bad?
Timo Jouhki has off course been important for several Finnish Champions (but not all). But whit out the work of the Finnish ASN it would be no rally drivers to choose from. Timo Joukhi doesn't arrange rallies, get volunteers to be time keepers, arrange parking on rally events, see that there are regulations like the popular Group F that promotes rally (or ralli) as a big sport, etc etc.
Both the Finnish ASN and the organisers are very important, and they have done a really really good job.



It was but is no longer as French have taken (or stolen) the scepter from Finns.
Not by a mile. Finland is the only country in the World where Rally is seen as a national sport. The only two countries I can think of that actually come close is Barbados and Ireland.
Though France has had two great champions, rally by no means a competitor of bigger sports like soccer.

Finland is the rally capital of the world, and by being that, and a country that can manage huge technological engineering feats (like Nokia), Finland can be a great place to run a rally team from.

[EightGear]

Finland the rally capital? Nokia? It's 2015, not 2004. :)

[Lundefaret]

At this regard I keep asking myself why, if TMG was not doing the job Toyoda wanted, they didn't decide to change some of the people and or managers at TMG keeping the structure and some valuable worker and maybe sending there Tommi Makkinen and some of his fellows friends.

TMG went rouge, and thats the problem.
Trough F1, LeMans they have showed that they can use huge budgets, whit out winning titles.
According to Flavio Briatore they have a huge problem in how they opperate.

The TMG rally project did not have central backing, and it was clear by several statements from Toyoda that TMG was operating against his wishes.
I think the reason that TMG was dropped also was because Toyoda wants a more hands on approach to this project, and that is very difficult with a huge organisation as TMG.

[Franky]

Finland the rally capital? Nokia? It's 2015, not 2004. :)

I think Lundefarat explained quite well why it can be considered the rally capital.

Also there's no reason to downplay Nokia. Yes, the mobile phone business went down hill and they sold the loss making phone unit to Microsoft, but they've kept the far more lucrative unit.

[Sulland]

And the Nokia cellphone comback will happen in 2016, with Android and not Symbian OS.
Maybe also one with Sailfish OS?

Nokia will hit back hard, now that they are free from Microsoft!!!

When Toyoda wants Gazoo Rally in Finland, and not with the racing arm in Germany, he probably has his reasons.

[Rally Power]

I think Lundefarat explained quite well why it can be considered the rally capital.

Really? I could also say that Portugal is the world capital of rally because 'Rallye de Portugal' is the greater sport event hold in our country...;)

Let's be serious: Finland is one of the greater rally nations; modern rallying is deeply linked with Finland and all those glorious drivers from the 70's and 80's made an outstanding footprint, but rally history doesn't start there and Finland never got a heavy desition power in rally world.

France still is the world capital of rally. From their heritage but also from their permanent contribution to the sport. No other country has all their manus involved in rally sport (in FIA champs or simply providing cars and services to rally costumers). It's (probably) the country with larger number of rallies per season (from regional level to WRC) and the greater degree of participation (200 entries are common in frech rally champ events). Also, no other country got CSI/FIA leadership during so long.

It's true that for some time Brits managed to get rallyworld leardership (like German are nowadays attempting) but French always kept their rulling power. I believe they will continue to.

PS: to all the Toy/Makinen critics: it's unfair to prejudge in such a negative way the team capacity before they even start rallying, and it's ridiculous to say that TMG is more capable; since F1 days they're a white elephant in Toyota's living room and probably, if they don't get a Le Mans win in a near future, they can end in a bad way...

Mery Christmans to all!

[Simmi]

When Toyoda wants Gazoo Rally in Finland, and not with the racing arm in Germany, he probably has his reasons.

I genuinely think Toyoda made his decision because Tommi convinced him that his way (smaller, more hands on, family team) is better. And now we have to wait and see (and hope) that Tommi was right.

[giù tutto!]

Not by a mile. Finland is the only country in the World where Rally is seen as a national sport. The only two countries I can think of that actually come close is Barbados and Ireland.
Though France has had two great champions, rally by no means a competitor of bigger sports like soccer.

Finland is the rally capital of the world, and by being that, and a country that can manage huge technological engineering feats (like Nokia), Finland can be a great place to run a rally team from.

The national sport of Finland is ice hockey. Rally was the national sport maybe in the 70's and 80's, but not anymore. The regular people hardly knows the names of the Finnish drivers nowadays.

In many ways the Finns are stuck in the 80's and 90's in rallying. They still believe the same path for the success which was used during the years of success. But it's a different world now. Our French friends develop the sport from the hobby level to the top-level sport.

Finland was to be the mental home of rallying, now it is the mental developing country of the rally world. Unfortunately.

[janvanvurpa]

The national sport of Finland is ice hockey. Rally was the national sport maybe in the 70's and 80's, but not anymore. The regular people hardly knows the names of the Finnish drivers nowadays.

In many ways the Finns are stuck in the 80's and 90's in rallying. They still believe the same path for the success which was used during the years of success. But it's a different world now. Our French friends develop the sport from the hobby level to the top-level sport.

Finland was to be the mental home of rallying, now it is the mental developing country of the rally world. Unfortunately.


That last bit is kinda of hard to swallow..espeically when you have F-cup which has such good drivers---and dozens of them---scores of them..
In all of "not even starting to develop country' USA with maybe 300-320 total drivers from a population of 320 million, the best USA can do in the best car a guy can buy (because to get better you will not buy the car, they give you the car) is slower than your best F-cup guys.

If Finland has does anything wrong in rally, they made the same mistake as everybody else and listened to marketing and promotion guys and believed them when they said promotion is the key to happiness..

Competition is the key...frequent, hard challenging, close competition...

[janvanvurpa]

I genuinely think Toyoda made his decision because Tommi convinced him that his way (smaller, more hands on, family team) is better. And now we have to wait and see (and hope) that Tommi was right.

Modern rally with these cars that have zero connection to the road cars they are badged as is now hugely like other mainly meaningless autosports in that it is first an engineering and budgetary exercise in the designing of specialty parts and that is a very portable thing and is done with keyboards...And a keyboard to type and draw on can be in any location..Frankfurt or Nagoya or Puuppola....as long as they have telephone line and electricity..

But that is the basic starting position.

Then to be sucessful you need first experience in knowing what is needed, and judgement in deciding what is good...and that is not linked to location but is inside the heads of people..

Then you need to confirm what you believe inside the head..

That calls for practice and honest assessment of what you do.

In that, being based in Puuppola is an advantage.

[itix]

That last bit is kinda of hard to swallow..espeically when you have F-cup which has such good drivers---and dozens of them---scores of them..
In all of "not even starting to develop country' USA with maybe 300-320 total drivers from a population of 320 million, the best USA can do in the best car a guy can buy (because to get better you will not buy the car, they give you the car) is slower than your best F-cup guys.

If Finland has does anything wrong in rally, they made the same mistake as everybody else and listened to marketing and promotion guys and believed them when they said promotion is the key to happiness..

Competition is the key...frequent, hard challenging, close competition...
That last section makes sense to me. The reason Ogier manage to win so often is because he keeps his calm always no matter what and only focus 100% on the task and he has done that by getting very good at competition and not stressing himself when he is in front.

Also
...about Toyota TMR Gazoo whatever, I think it is too early to say anything. It all depends on who they manage to get as driver in the team. Like Lundefaret often says, the driver makes a huuuge difference. Ogier would still win in the Msport cars... the VW only makes it easy for him. I am pretty sure that there is a lower wall between TMG and TMR than we think. If they are building the engines, I am pretty sure they supply testing data and CADs and other stuff as well.

Does anyone here in the forum know much about Tommis group N building before he stuck his nose into the Toyota operations? How good were his cars? Did/do they have any known issues? Etc etc? That would leave us with an indication of how well they could do.

[janvanvurpa]

Does anyone here in the forum know much about Tommis group N building before he stuck his nose into the Toyota operations? How good were his cars? Did/do they have any known issues? Etc etc? That would leave us with an indication of how well they could do.


Akta er, pojken!

In Group N they could have made the best Group N prepared cars possible and if the basic car has some serious desirn problem there is only so much that can be done..
Example is in Group N Subaru they are stuck with the Subaru EJ20 motor basic dimensions and of course position far ahead of the front axle..
The EJ20 motor (I have built 3 for rally) has a cylinder bore of 92mm...And must breathe thru a 32mm restrictor....
32mm mean the poor thing will not be happy to make revs above some point---a problem for all Group N4 cars...so as we know, they all make the motor into a "mid-range torque monster" and to do that you begin with making much higher static compression ratio and funny turbocharger pressure ratio..
There the size of the bore at 92mm becomes a problem that cars like most modern desigs do not have when they have bore size between 85 to 86mm. Those engines can tolerate much higher cylinder pressure with much less chance of detonation simply from the distance the flame must travel to be complete (in the time allowed).

So Tommi M Rally could do everything perfect on a GroupN Subaru, and still have problem with great results because of things completely out of their control.

So careful and not take things out of context..

( I don't know if you are intimately familiar with the bore/stroke of the typical engines that have done so well in the 2 liter days...but all the best were around 85mm bore and 89 stroke, or many were clustered at 86mm bore and 86mm stroke---I build engines....:D )

God Jul till alla rally dårar därute i världen.:beer:

[itix]

Akta er, pojken!

In Group N they could have made the best Group N prepared cars possible and if the basic car has some serious desirn problem there is only so much that can be done..
Example is in Group N Subaru they are stuck with the Subaru EJ20 motor basic dimensions and of course position far ahead of the front axle..
The EJ20 motor (I have built 3 for rally) has a cylinder bore of 92mm...And must breathe thru a 32mm restrictor....
32mm mean the poor thing will not be happy to make revs above some point---a problem for all Group N4 cars...so as we know, they all make the motor into a "mid-range torque monster" and to do that you begin with making much higher static compression ratio and funny turbocharger pressure ratio..
There the size of the bore at 92mm becomes a problem that cars like most modern desigs do not have when they have bore size between 85 to 86mm. Those engines can tolerate much higher cylinder pressure with much less chance of detonation simply from the distance the flame must travel to be complete (in the time allowed).

So Tommi M Rally could do everything perfect on a GroupN Subaru, and still have problem with great results because of things completely out of their control.

So careful and not take things out of context..

( I don't know if you are intimately familiar with the bore/stroke of the typical engines that have done so well in the 2 liter days...but all the best were around 85mm bore and 89 stroke, or many were clustered at 86mm bore and 86mm stroke---I build engines....:D )

God Jul till alla rally dårar därute i världen.:beer:
I work with completely different engines. The ones I have worked with have had a bore in the range of 460 to 900mm and a stroke of 940 to 2920mm... So well let's just say I don't know much about the torque figures of the tiny little sewing machines you talk about ;)

Go Jul på dig med förresten!

Also I don't work with FIA regulated restrictors and my engines can breathe as freely as they want to...

Anyway, back to topic. I am not entirely sure how wider bore and less stroke can give more torque... It seems to me that the logical thing would be the complete opposite. Those motorcycle engines that rev up to 15 000 rpm usually have a pretty large bore to stroke ratio if I am not mistaken.

Still... There has got to be other group N Subaru that you can compare them to and if they have inherit problems, the guy has a problem with his manufacturing philosophy. Does anyone here hold such info?

[Rallyper]

The national sport of Finland is ice hockey. Rally was the national sport maybe in the 70's and 80's, but not anymore. The regular people hardly knows the names of the Finnish drivers nowadays.

In many ways the Finns are stuck in the 80's and 90's in rallying. They still believe the same path for the success which was used during the years of success. But it's a different world now. Our French friends develop the sport from the hobby level to the top-level sport.

Finland was to be the mental home of rallying, now it is the mental developing country of the rally world. Unfortunately.

So wher do you suggest they should have their HQ?

[janvanvurpa]

So wher do you suggest they should have their HQ?

Snipp (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipp), Snapp (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapp), Snorum (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorum), eller Hej (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hej,_Skellefte%C3%A5_kommun) Basalorum? (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalorum)

[Rallyper]

Snipp (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipp), Snapp (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapp), Snorum (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorum), eller Hej (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hej,_Skellefte%C3%A5_kommun) Basalorum? (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalorum)

Agree. Suomissa that is!

[giù tutto!]

So wher do you suggest they should have their HQ?

To Trollhättan.

[giù tutto!]

That last bit is kinda of hard to swallow..espeically when you have F-cup which has such good drivers---and dozens of them---scores of them..
In all of "not even starting to develop country' USA with maybe 300-320 total drivers from a population of 320 million, the best USA can do in the best car a guy can buy (because to get better you will not buy the car, they give you the car) is slower than your best F-cup guys.

If Finland has does anything wrong in rally, they made the same mistake as everybody else and listened to marketing and promotion guys and believed them when they said promotion is the key to happiness..

Competition is the key...frequent, hard challenging, close competition...

Nowadays F-cup is like a shadow comparing to the glory days... And the level of competition is...hmm...well, few champions of the F-cup have said that they realized the difference of driving fast and "driving fast" when they changed to the rallies with the pace notes. It's a little bit different story to drive rally at the blind event when you know the road and the others don't. That's maybe one big issue for the Finns that most of the rallies are blind events and many of the drivers thinks that the pace notes are too difficult for them and that's why they prefer blind events.

[janvanvurpa]

Nowadays F-cup is like a shadow comparing to the glory days... And the level of competition is...hmm...well, few champions of the F-cup have said that they realized the difference of driving fast and "driving fast" when they changed to the rallies with the pace notes. It's a little bit different story to drive rally at the blind event when you know the road and the others don't. That's maybe one big issue for the Finns that most of the rallies are blind events and many of the drivers thinks that the pace notes are too difficult for them and that's why they prefer blind events.

How can we make this so its something to do with Toyota, when I am much more interested in F-cup and Grupp H i grannlandet? When was the glory days of F-cup? And why is it no longer as great as it was? Is it like a mini-crisis in the rising of costs for cars and prep---like WRC has suffered from since Whirled Rally Carz rules broke the connection to reality and the ability of low level competitors like me of ever even imagine being in a car with suspension and brakes like the baddest cars? (How was that for a stretch to link F-cup and Toyota in return to the
Whirled Rally Champignonskit? Pretty god, eh?)

[cali]

Finnish gravel roads ar not just "Finnish gravel roads." They have huge differences in character, just drive Ouininpuhja and You'll see that even there it changes a lot.
And Finnish gravel roads have another advantage, there are ha HUGE number of them close to the factory.



As I have understood it the person in question has had a big role in the Finnish WRC round, which is by far the most succesfull in the WRC. That can't be bad?
Timo Jouhki has off course been important for several Finnish Champions (but not all). But whit out the work of the Finnish ASN it would be no rally drivers to choose from. Timo Joukhi doesn't arrange rallies, get volunteers to be time keepers, arrange parking on rally events, see that there are regulations like the popular Group F that promotes rally (or ralli) as a big sport, etc etc.
Both the Finnish ASN and the organisers are very important, and they have done a really really good job.



Not by a mile. Finland is the only country in the World where Rally is seen as a national sport. The only two countries I can think of that actually come close is Barbados and Ireland.
Though France has had two great champions, rally by no means a competitor of bigger sports like soccer.

Finland is the rally capital of the world, and by being that, and a country that can manage huge technological engineering feats (like Nokia), Finland can be a great place to run a rally team from.
No it isnt. I have lot of friend in the Capital area who do not care or do not even know anything about rally. Seen too many such kind of people that I lost my faith in finnish rallying ;)


Sent from my ONE E1003 using Tapatalk

[Rallyper]

No it isnt. I have lot of friend in the Capital area who do not care or do not even know anything about rally. Seen too many such kind of people that I lost my faith in finnish rallying ;)


Sent from my ONE E1003 using Tapatalk

Hopefully those who works with rallying know a lot, in Finland or wherever.

[cali]

Hopefully those who works with rallying know a lot, in Finland or wherever.
For sure they do, but rallying is not a huge sport in Finland as per my experience.

Sent from my ONE E1003 using Tapatalk

[Hartusvuori]

No it isnt. I have lot of friend in the Capital area who do not care or do not even know anything about rally. Seen too many such kind of people that I lost my faith in finnish rallying ;)

How much an average French person knows about rallying? Or Brit? Or German? I doubt they could even explain the most basic idea behind the rallying such as competing on closed roads from A to B. Rallying is just F1 with somewhat different cars to them, had they noticed this sport at all.

I've heard that if you go around from door to door in Zlin, most likely every other family is somewhat connected to rallying or have some other relation to the sport. Do that in Jämsä (Central Finland), and you have similar response. Clearly in bigger cities in Finland your average office worker who considers spectating sport as watching Champions League in a sports bar is not interrested or aware of rallying. But take F-Cup rally closer than 100 km from Helsinki and you cars parked on the roadside as if it's WRC. Finns appreaciate sportsmen only if they are champions. It's been a long while since Grönholm's second title. All the runner-up seasons for Grönholm, Hirvonen and Latvala only means that the Finn had lost.

Since early 2000s - and not to mention earlier decades - all over the Western world people's spare time and hobbies have changed drastically. This all reflects to sports, all sports. Volunteers, permissions, money, all which are needed for this sports come harder to find all the time. For a nation of 5,5 million people we have done quite well in rallying, in my opinion. Some of you appreciate, some of you loathe it. But for sure Finns will keep their feet firmly put inside this sport. Mäkinen's Toyota project is an untravelled path. For two reasons I hope it'll succeed, one a general motive, another more personal: Firstly it would bring more cars, more excitement, more attention to rallying at its highest levels. I'm willing to stay 4-6 minutes longer at special stages to see Yaris WRCs pass. Secondly, I want to be proud as a Finn when it succees. This need however doesn't rise from myself, but all the naysayers have taking it up on the surface.

[Lundefaret]

How much an average French person knows about rallying? Or Brit? Or German? I doubt they could even explain the most basic idea behind the rallying such as competing on closed roads from A to B. Rallying is just F1 with somewhat different cars to them, had they noticed this sport at all.

I've heard that if you go around from door to door in Zlin, most likely every other family is somewhat connected to rallying or have some other relation to the sport. Do that in Jämsä (Central Finland), and you have similar response. Clearly in bigger cities in Finland your average office worker who considers spectating sport as watching Champions League in a sports bar is not interrested or aware of rallying. But take F-Cup rally closer than 100 km from Helsinki and you cars parked on the roadside as if it's WRC. Finns appreaciate sportsmen only if they are champions. It's been a long while since Grönholm's second title. All the runner-up seasons for Grönholm, Hirvonen and Latvala only means that the Finn had lost.

Since early 2000s - and not to mention earlier decades - all over the Western world people's spare time and hobbies have changed drastically. This all reflects to sports, all sports. Volunteers, permissions, money, all which are needed for this sports come harder to find all the time. For a nation of 5,5 million people we have done quite well in rallying, in my opinion. Some of you appreciate, some of you loathe it. But for sure Finns will keep their feet firmly put inside this sport. Mäkinen's Toyota project is an untravelled path. For two reasons I hope it'll succeed, one a general motive, another more personal: Firstly it would bring more cars, more excitement, more attention to rallying at its highest levels. I'm willing to stay 4-6 minutes longer at special stages to see Yaris WRCs pass. Secondly, I want to be proud as a Finn when it succees. This need however doesn't rise from myself, but all the naysayers have taking it up on the surface.

+1

[giù tutto!]

How much an average French person knows about rallying? Or Brit? Or German? I doubt they could even explain the most basic idea behind the rallying such as competing on closed roads from A to B. Rallying is just F1 with somewhat different cars to them, had they noticed this sport at all.


Yep, but rally is not the national sport of France, GB or Germany, as many times said about Finland.

For sure I don't loathe the achievements of the Finnish proper rally legends or the small nation. There are lots of good and fine things in the Finnish rally scene. I just want to be objective. Hanging on the golden memories is like a handbrake for the development of the rallying in Finland.

Nokia is a good example about hanging on the past. They got the tablet and the smart phones on their designer's table years before anyone else. But their smart and experienced leaders said these are not the future. Well, what happened then?

How on earth all this is connected to the Toyota's return to the WRC? There are no the philosopher's stone or a silver bullet in Finland about rallying. The success of Toyota depends on how well Tommi and other executives understand the requirements of the today's rally.

[Rallyper]

And that the conditions for every team/country, isnt it? No silver bullit for anyone. Only hard work. Which finns are famous doing!

[Rally Power]

How much an average French person knows about rallying? I doubt they could even explain the most basic idea behind the rallying(...)
For a nation of 5,5 million people we have done quite well in rallying, in my opinion. Some of you appreciate, some of you loathe it.


I’m not French but I got family living there for a long time and I always try to get some rally action while visiting them.

The last one, a couple of years ago, was Touquet Rallye in the north, counting for French champ. I was completely overwhelmed by the quantity and quality of cars and drivers, from top WRC to the oldest Gr.F cars. I just wasn’t impressed by the fans enthusiasm and proper knowledge, because from long time I know French rally fans are among the most passionate ones. Besides, rallying is a French invention, the most iconic world rally is still running on their country routes, they’ve always got national manufacturers involved in rally and at every new generation some talented French rally drivers get to became local (and world) legends. This is why common Frenchy actually knows what rally is. (I suspect common Brits also have a pretty good idea of it!).

Above all, it’s a bit weird to see how this topic has turned into a “with or against Fin rallying” and that there was even a Fin “counterattack” against others passionate rally countries. Everyone is entitled to her/his opinion, but sometimes opinions are exaggerated and lack reasonable arguments to stand for.

Finding Finland the capital of world rallying just because it may be the country with most rally fans per capita (a subjective and hard to verify ratio) it’s clearly overrated and if people find important to identify which country should get that nomination it’d be simpler to see what nation has the larger number of local ASN registered rally drivers or the larger number of rallies run each year.

But there’re others significant issues to look for: the location of the international motorsport/rally authority headquarters; the number and nationality of board elements and key figures in FIA/WRC decision making process; the number and nationality of manufacturers actively involved in rallying.

With a proper and factual view of all those items, we easily get the conclusion that Finland’s claim of “world rally capital” it’s incorrect, but that should never affect Finland heritage status as an iconic rally nation, alongside France, Great Britain and Italy (that sadly has been in a sort of rally hibernation).

One final remark on Makinen/Toyota partnership: since day one I’ve been a clear supporter of it, refusing the negative over criticism that foolishly has become predominant. My support doesn’t come from Makinen nationality or his choice to base the team in Finland; it comes from believing in his ability to turn TMR into a sort of MSport and make his company a powerful rally cluster capable of helping rally global growth.

[tommeke_B]

@Rally Power. Almost 90% of French rallying happens in the Southern half of France, I think... Apart from Le Touquet, Cote Fleurie and some other small events, the North-West of France doesn't have much events and also not so much followers. I'm sure that if you would go to the Rallye du Mont-Blanc or Rallye du Var, which are in the same championship, the experience would be very different. ;) I've visited Le Touquet several times, and indeed, on most places you arrive, you are almost completely alone. No big crowds and no big atmosphere...

As said before here, in almost every country rallying is a sport that exists only in a few regions. Same goes for Belgium, where you have a few regions where rallying is quite popular. Those regions have almost too much events for the capacity of it, while in other large parts of the country the sport simply doesn't exist. When no events take place regionally, people can only get to know the sport via other promotion (internet/tv/newspapers), and that's something that has never been great with WRC...

[itix]

Finland and sweden were very active in rallying in the 50s, 60s, 70s... Finland continued to be active until the mid 2000s and is still quite active with regards to drivers per capita (and rally interest etc etc). Sweden kind of stopped in the early 80s at an international level.

France has always been big in motorsport, including rallying and as you say it is a heritage sport. Italy also has a lot of motorsport heritage but is unfortunately mostly focusing on F1. That doesn't mean you don't see them at rallies... You see tons of them at every rally despite not having a driver to cheer for (Bertelli doesn't count) at the top flight. Italy even has the world's second oldest rally (Targa Florio).

France has always been involved technically in the sport as well as on the driver side. Finland, despite it's motorsport interest (you can't quite claim Finnish heritage but boy are they involved in motorsport) has no car manufacturer and has to my knowledge never previously had a team based there. Only time will tell how it goes. I have quite a lot of doubts about the project but I am also not going to say yay or nay until I see results.

I wish Italian focus was put back on rallying, forgetting their silly Ferrari F1 nonsense and involved one of their manufacturers again.

The result of Tommi's and Toyota's efforts we will see when we get there. I wonder given that Tommi is already not aiming at the top and the late testing schedule etc etc... Buuuut I won't speak too soon.

[EightGear]

Italians don't have a driver in the top in F1 neither though. And you can argue about the Targa Florio. It only became a rally later on, before that it was a sportscar race.

I'm still kind of 'Meh' in this Toyota saga but it's a very curious case with them dropping TMG. Time will tell, I hope they will succeed. Part of that will be the need for an experienced driver and so far that seems to be lacking.

[Rally Power]

I've visited Le Touquet several times, and indeed, on most places you arrive, you are almost completely alone. No big crowds and no big atmosphere...


Probably fans weren't watching because they were rallying themselves or helping in the service areas;) It was a close to 200 entries rally!

You're right, in the South and the Est we see more spectators, but overall France there's a pretty good knowledge of rallying.

Before the Sebs there was Auriol, Ragnotti, Frequelin and the golden Alpine generation of Andruet, Nicolas, Therier, Darniche and some others. Besides the Alpine-Renault, Peugeot with the 205 and later Citroen with their WRC's also hugely contributed for french rally passion. But above all, there's the mythic Monte Carlo Rally. French love big events and really got a special way to organize them (yes, MC is organized by ACM, but how many non french are there?).

[Rallyper]

The location of TMG or TMR is not a question of heritage nor which country has the best roads or drivers. It´s just a question of dedication and money. Put some good testing roads besides and fibercables connected to internet and what´s the big deal then?

So let´s get back to topic. This is not a topic of arguing which country has the best pedigree for rallying.

[Hartusvuori]

Above all, it’s a bit weird to see how this topic has turned into a “with or against Fin rallying” and that there was even a Fin “counterattack” against others passionate rally countries. Everyone is entitled to her/his opinion, but sometimes opinions are exaggerated and lack reasonable arguments to stand for.

My post was not by any means an attack against anyone, but merely a comment on Cali's observation that Finland's reputation in rallying has not reached the average Joe. In my opinion that is the case in every other nation too in 2010s. It can be different in different regions, but in general - rallying is not football in terms of popularity. It should also be tracked who at the moment claims Finland would be the Rallying Capital of the World. This must come from decades ago. We can now argue that Rally Finland is the best event in the series (= meaning you can argue against as well), but as for other rallying activities I don't know anyone else who'd bash and criticize the current situation more than Finns rallying community itself. It's done to a degree that at some points it needs defending.

[AMSS]

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.ksml.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/tommi-makisen-hurja-projekti/2202989&edit-text=

[KiwiWRCfan]

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.ksml.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/tommi-makisen-hurja-projekti/2202989&edit-text=

nice to read that Toyota commitment to WRC will continue until at least 2022

[janvanvurpa]

I’m not French but I got family living there for a long time and I always try to get some rally action while visiting them.

The last one, a couple of years ago, was Touquet Rallye in the north, counting for French champ. I was completely overwhelmed by the quantity and quality of cars and drivers, from top WRC to the oldest Gr.F cars. I just wasn’t impressed by the fans enthusiasm and proper knowledge, because from long time I know French rally fans are among the most passionate ones. Besides, rallying is a French invention, the most iconic world rally is still running on their country routes, they’ve always got national manufacturers involved in rally and at every new generation some talented French rally drivers get to became local (and world) legends. This is why common Frenchy actually knows what rally is. (I suspect common Brits also have a pretty good idea of it!).

Above all, it’s a bit weird to see how this topic has turned into a “with or against Fin rallying” and that there was even a Fin “counterattack” against others passionate rally countries. Everyone is entitled to her/his opinion, but sometimes opinions are exaggerated and lack reasonable arguments to stand for.

Finding Finland the capital of world rallying just because it may be the country with most rally fans per capita (a subjective and hard to verify ratio) it’s clearly overrated and if people find important to identify which country should get that nomination it’d be simpler to see what nation has the larger number of local ASN registered rally drivers or the larger number of rallies run each year.

But there’re others significant issues to look for: the location of the international motorsport/rally authority headquarters; the number and nationality of board elements and key figures in FIA/WRC decision making process; the number and nationality of manufacturers actively involved in rallying.

With a proper and factual view of all those items, we easily get the conclusion that Finland’s claim of “world rally capital” it’s incorrect, but that should never affect Finland heritage status as an iconic rally nation, alongside France, Great Britain and Italy (that sadly has been in a sort of rally hibernation).

One final remark on Makinen/Toyota partnership: since day one I’ve been a clear supporter of it, refusing the negative over criticism that foolishly has become predominant. My support doesn’t come from Makinen nationality or his choice to base the team in Finland; it comes from believing in his ability to turn TMR into a sort of MSport and make his company a powerful rally cluster capable of helping rally global growth.


Mon Ami Portogauloise,
maybe true the French cooked up the idea of rally..The french have always been not just daring in creation, but brave enough to try new ideas--- Remember 1789!! Remember 1871, the Commune shall never die!

But just like another thing they may have invented something, they may have initially embraced something...But I used to say when I lived in Sweden "The cher Francaise may have invented fawkin bureaucracy, but the Swedes took the idea and perfected it!"

I do not think I think of Finland as "Ralli Paradis" because of the numbers of fans....I think of them because the number of drivers---all the way back to the 1960s, sheer numbers that can make decent results and who have scored points in the worlds best rallies..

The record shows that the HUGE MAJORITY of all the Dubya Arsey wins for France have really been won by just 3-4 --drivers.and the Sebs Loeb-gier accounting for a huge portion of the wins..with just a light sprinkle of a point taken here, o few points there---by a large number of drivers..

Et au contraire
En Finlande on trouve en battalion oops ---you find a battalion of drivers over the years capable of winning a huge variety of rounds...

And when I spectate at Monte Carlo 93, the French fans I spoke with seemed to have a mystical tone in their voices when they spoke of Sweden and Finland and rally..
If it was made into a movie, when they refer to the North, the camera would move down and look up in the faces, a warm spot light and soft focus, and in the background a angelic choir would sign a rising soft tone and the fans would speak sorta in awe "The snow! The forests! The SPEEDS!, the jumps! TOUTE!"
Of course very unscientific sample....

I admit that France is my favorite country dans toute le monde, I loved the 2 seasons I was there, and even 35-40 years later I still read and am fascinated by their enthusiasm on their moto-cross and rally forums..

But..fans is one thing.....50 years of many Finns ---not one after another--but many fighting at or near the top, and an intense National scene means for me its no argument where I think
"The Capital" is.

[Rally Power]

Thiz uone also got tirerd explainingue why France iz the worlde capitale of rallye!http://cdn4.scoopers.com/a048b8d5f3f9178/p/47ef2e989804041c9e54a7a196bdaab2.jpg

Janvanpura...no doubt Fins did a great job perfecting Rallye but You and all the north european friends should get a closer look into the last 10 years of French rallying to see their rally boom and how they're exporting young kids to WRC front line...just like Fins and Swedes did in the 70's, 80's and 90's!

Btw, you have to came to Portugal: that way You'll find O MELHOR PAÍS do MUNDO! (we got even better weather, wine and women than french!).

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

nice to read that Toyota commitment to WRC will continue until at least 2022
Unlike a certain Japanese manufacturer who decices to run away after Le Mans humiliations.

BTW, can we back to main topic..? Otherwise, this thread would be blocked..

[Rallyper]

Main topic is also about where they will place HO.

But for sure I dont understand the guys who cant live with the fact it´s situated in Finland.

[Simmi]

Max Rally saying Loeb to Toyota might not be pie in the sky:
http://www.maxrally.com/2015/12/29/loeb-tommi-and-toyota

[AL14]

Max Rally saying Loeb to Toyota might not be pie in the sky:
http://www.maxrally.com/2015/12/29/loeb-tommi-and-toyota
"Probably" "would be" … Just speculations. I wonder how many years will we have to go through until we will stop speculating about Loeb's come back. Probably never.

[traxx]

If Loeb would come back that could be done with Citroen and now he is with peugeot because he does not want that...

[AndyRAC]

The rally journalists seem desperate for Loeb to return, and any story gets headlines; like the Sebasten Loeb Racing running a JWRC programme was "Loeb returns to the WRC....."

Get over it, he's doing other things that interest him. Rallying isn't the only Motorsport around.....

[Simmi]

Get over it, he's doing other things that interest him. Rallying isn't the only Motorsport around.....

You say that - but Loeb is directly quoted in Motorsport News today saying that he wanted to do some rallies with Citroen in 2016 but he was dropped. It doesn't sound like it ended all that well with Citroen - nor does it seem to be the case (like we assume) that he could just switch back between Peugeot and Citroen at his will.

On Citroen: "They could have had a good opportunity to take me, but they closed the door."

Loeb on his post-Dakar plans: "It's difficult to say at the moment, I am working on different ideas. What I think is that I want to do more than three or so rallies in the year, so I need to find something. There are different opportunities at the moment, but it's too early to speak clearly about this year."


So it sounds like it didn't end well - and it sounds like Loeb is fairly hurt or pissed off at Citroen. And he wants to do more rallies. So it's not exactly crazy that he could be talking to Toyota. If this article isn't up on Autosport by later on today I'll post a few of the other quotes.

[AndyRAC]

I've just read the piece ( I very rarely buy MNews anymore; also, getting rid of Jerry Williams was a mistake). It just confirms what I thought at the time; signing for Peugeot was far more significant than people realised. It was a proper split - not a 'transfer' across to the sister company. He won't be back at Citroen.

Could he do a few events in the future? Possibly looks like it. I don't think we'll see him full time though.

[seb_sh]

Also look at the following two phrases in Loeb's statement after Citroen's announcement:
"I was surprised when I learned that I won't move forward to defend the colours of Citroen Racing in 2016."
"I am disappointed that the adventure stops after two years because I had the desire to go get this title."
Translated from his official website on autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122150

This was followed by a statement from Citroen that Loeb wasn't "fired" and just moved over to Peugeot.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122150

There's lots of other PR stuff in the statement but these two lines indicate he didn't want it this way. If he wanted to retire it would have been more about mutual decisions and time to stop (and even then it's not sure it's true ;) ). So it looks like he's not happy with Citroen but does that mean he will go to a rival or return to the WRC? Or will he go back to try Le Mans or something like that? He may not be happy with Citroen's decision but he sour so that he would go against them?

[Lundefaret]

Loeb with a limited program for Toyota, well... that would be interesting (and an absolute dream scenario).

Toyota/Tommi Mäkinen have several options:
- Thierry Neuville (Tommi would be the man that could get him back on his horse)
- Petter Solberg (if Petter could be a little of his former humble self, and let him be tought by Mäkinen, and let Mäkinen have a big say in set up, this could be really good.)
-Eric Camilli (Toyota has money enough to break every contract, and Camilli COULD be a future star)
And off course others.

Loeb would be great for Toyota and great for the WRC.

[Rallyper]

SLR doing JWRC is to me an indication Loeb want to stick to rallying. MAybe SLR develops to a full WRC private team. Sponsors should like it, I´m sure.

[AndyRAC]

SLR is in quite a few series; WTCC, French GT, Porsche Carrera Cup/ SuperCup, etc

[Rally Power]

Also look at the following two phrases in Loeb's statement after Citroen's announcement:
"I was surprised when I learned that I won't move forward to defend the colours of Citroen Racing in 2016."
"I am disappointed that the adventure stops after two years because I had the desire to go get this title."
Translated from his official website on autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122150

This was followed by a statement from Citroen that Loeb wasn't "fired" and just moved over to Peugeot.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122150

There's lots of other PR stuff in the statement but these two lines indicate he didn't want it this way. If he wanted to retire it would have been more about mutual decisions and time to stop (and even then it's not sure it's true ;) ). So it looks like he's not happy with Citroen but does that mean he will go to a rival or return to the WRC? Or will he go back to try Le Mans or something like that? He may not be happy with Citroen's decision but he sour so that he would go against them?

There's no need to speculate over Loeb's future outside PSA group.

2016 is going to be an interim season for Citroen in WRC before their '17 full attack. During next year they will gradually move human and material resources involved in their WTCC program to WRC. That's why they'll run a two cars team in WTCC, instead of the usual four.

Loeb's disappointment comes from not being chosen to stay in WTCC, because he hates to loose and wanted to prove that was able to beat Lopez (and Muller). Last two seasons results proved otherwise and probably his speed wouldn't be enough, again, so it was quite understandable that Matton kept Lopez and Muller in Citro reduced WTCC effort.

The Dakar program was the logical alternative, but in their rush to get the most of Loeb's image, Peugeot and Citroen marketing guys ended in a PR mess, giving the impression he was living for a different company, when his overall boss remains exactly the same.

It's in this PR messy environment that foolish journos print their BS articles, speculating about elaborated Loeb moves that'll never happen because everybody knows that it's more probable to see Jesus returning to Earth than Loeb leaving PSA!

[Simmi]

I look at it completely the other way - why would Loeb not leave PSA now?

If there was any so-called loyalty Citroen basically tossed the guy that made their motorsport brand to the kerb. Once the Dakar is done, unless Loeb wants to do a few small rally raid events and play second fiddle to Timmy Hansen in WRX then he's going to need to do something else. If you read up on the situation, and Loeb's comments printed today, then you'll see that he can't just waltz between the two PSA brands, even if they do share a facility.

[Rally Power]

I look at it completely the other way - why would Loeb not leave PSA now?

If there was any so-called loyalty Citroen basically tossed the guy that made their motorsport brand to the kerb. Once the Dakar is done, unless Loeb wants to do a few small rally raid events and play second fiddle to Timmy Hansen in WRX then he's going to need to do something else. If you read up on the situation, and Loeb's comments printed today, then you'll see that he can't just waltz between the two PSA brands, even if they do share a facility.

Wasn't Loeb decision to leave WRC? Wasn't also his decision to get into WTCC after trying some GT races? Wasn't his decision to do Dakar after the Morocco experience? If he won't get enough thrill on Rally Raids (or even WRX) and at some point wants to get back into WRC, surely Citroen will find a way to run him alongside the other drivers.

This Loeb/Citroen split was a PR move to get a wider exposure for the Peugeot Dakar team, but turned into a mess. It'll pass rapidly with no major drama, as Peugeot, Citroen and DS motorsport activities are now more integrated than ever. It's not only a question of sharing the same facilities: for the first time there's a sport overall manager that supervise all brands programs.

Btw, the loyalty from Citroen to Loeb is there since the beginning of his WRC career. The team always run according to Loeb's preferences (that's why Ogier was sacked and probably Sordo never got a real chance to shine). Even now in Peugeot he managed to take Elena with him, when most factory teams uses experienced Dakar codrivers. In WTCC he got first driver status since day one, but simply wasn't able to match Muller and Lopez speed. What could Matton do more?

[Rallyper]

If he comes back it will surely be with Citroen. And why not comeback? Because you always longing to good old days and memories that was good. And oc he still can drive a rallycar as well. WRC was where he got all the victories.

[N.O.T]

Loeb has very little to offer to the sport anymore from a driver point of view, your desperation to find the "Ogier killer" is sad people, and it shows. It reminds me the times when Loeb dominated and every nobody was coming up with names to save them from the pain.

[Sulland]

Maybe a challenge like this would be exactly what he needs!
But I would also hire Lappi, and buy him a Fiesta WRC to use in 16.

Just so Loeb are not falling into the trap of developing a car just suited to hos driving style.
Other drivers have found the DS3 a bit difficult to master 100%.

a new car need to be flexible, and a possibility to be set up for different styles of preferences!

[EightGear]

Evans' former codriver Daniel Barritt has joined Toyota to help develop a Japanese driver which name I can't remember.

[markf8691]

Loeb has very little to offer to the sport anymore from a driver point of view, your desperation to find the "Ogier killer" is sad people, and it shows. It reminds me the times when Loeb dominated and every nobody was coming up with names to save them from the pain.

I would disagree here, I'd say if Seb came back, he'd prob be faster than the majority of drivers currently in WRC...

[pantealex]

Evans' former codriver Daniel Barritt has joined Toyota to help develop a Japanese driver which name I can't remember.

Takamoto Katsuta. 1st start together is Arctic Lapland Rally Finland 28-30.1

[OldF]

The other Japanese driver is Hiroki Arai.

http://en.responsejp.com/article/2015/06/03/252673.html

One of them will probably drive the third Toyota in 2017. Remember reading they both will drive FRC this year.

[Simmi]

The other Japanese driver is Hiroki Arai.

http://en.responsejp.com/article/2015/06/03/252673.html

One of them will probably drive the third Toyota in 2017. Remember reading they both will drive FRC this year.

This is one of the most intriguing stories of the year for me - watching to see what results these guys can get. IMO these drivers need to be in R5 cars right now in WRC events if they want to realistically be in the WRC car in 2017.

Wouldn't be wise for Toyota to rush them.

[AL14]

This is one of the most intriguing stories of the year for me - watching to see what results these guys can get. IMO these drivers need to be in R5 cars right now in WRC events if they want to realistically be in the WRC car in 2017.

Wouldn't be wise for Toyota to rush them.

Maybe they are going to drive the R5 when it will be developed.

[pantealex]

Toyota has chosen MAN trucks, Tommi wanted Mercedes or Volvo but japanese said no because they are "real" car brands.(MAN belongs to VW-group but normal people does´t know that)
Wonder which recce car they will choose, Toyota has no own 4wd stock car.

Arai and Katsuta have entered to SM1 class (S2000, R5, WRC 2.0T, FinR) not in SM2 (N, R4, FinN) with Impreza at the moment, so probably they will drive some R5 this year.

[Mirek]

Wonder which recce car they will choose, Toyota has no own 4wd stock car.

Hillux? RAV4? :)

[stefanvv]

Hillux? RAV4? :)

LAND CRUISER sounds right

[rallyfiend]

Subaru is sort of part of Toyota empire.

I'm sure they'll just use WRX.

[janvanvurpa]

Subaru is sort of part of Toyota empire.

I'm sure they'll just use WRX.

Aber.....

Wiki:
On October 5, 2005 Toyota Motor Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Corporation) purchased 8.7% of FHI shares from General Motors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Corporation), which had owned 20.1% since 1999.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuji_Heavy_Industries#cite_note-5) GM later divested its remaining 11.4% stake on the open market to sever all ties with FHI. FHI previously stated there might have been 27 million shares (3.4%) acquired before the start of trading by an unknown party on October 6, 2005, and speculation suggested a bank or perhaps another automaker was involved. After the purchase, Toyota announced a contract with Subaru on March 13, 2006 to use the underutilized Subaru manufacturing facility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_of_Indiana_Automotive) in Lafayette, Indiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafayette,_Indiana), as well as plans to hire up to 1,000 workers and set aside an assembly line for the Camry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Camry), beginning in the second quarter of 2007.

I don't think I'd call Toyota owning a little under 9% of shares "bringing Subaru into the (evil) Empire"

Oder was?

[AMSS]

Aber.....

Wiki:

I don't think I'd call Toyota owning a little under 9% of shares "bringing Subaru into the (evil) Empire"

Oder was?

I think they own a bit more nowadays, should be 16,5%
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-05-08/toyotas-silent-subaru-stake-pays-off

[Gregor-y]

Either way Subaru's Lafayette plant isn't making Toyotas past this year. Production is increasing for the barge-sized Outback and Subaru wants to start building Imprezas there since the raised suspension CrossTrek had been a good seller, too. There are also plans for a large US/Canada only SUV of some kind. There's a big expansion and over a thousand new jobs to handle the switch, while Toyota's plant in Kentucky will have to increase production of the Camry.

I bet Toyota builds some WRC cars to a mild spec and uses them for gravel duties. Or use Subarus, which are cheaper than the Golf R or Focus RS.

[pantealex]

Or use Subarus, which are cheaper than the Golf R or Focus RS.

STI cost 15000€ more than Focus RS (in Finland)

[wia5958]

Focus rs isnt 4wheel drive either

[mm1]

The new one is:)

[Gordini]

what is webadress to Makinen new Toyota Rally Team?

[rallyfiend]

Either way Subaru's Lafayette plant isn't making Toyotas past this year. Production is increasing for the barge-sized Outback and Subaru wants to start building Imprezas there since the raised suspension CrossTrek had been a good seller, too. There are also plans for a large US/Canada only SUV of some kind. There's a big expansion and over a thousand new jobs to handle the switch, while Toyota's plant in Kentucky will have to increase production of the Camry.

I bet Toyota builds some WRC cars to a mild spec and uses them for gravel duties. Or use Subarus, which are cheaper than the Golf R or Focus RS.

Recce car can only be a standard road car or production (Group N) under the regulations.

[KiwiWRCfan]

what is webadress to Makinen new Toyota Rally Team?

http://www.tommimakinen.com/news.htm

[dimviii]

any news?
http://www.mtv.fi/sport/ralli/uutinen/artikkeli/tommi-makisen-iskuryhma-kiertaa-jo-nyt-mm-rallikauden/5688310

[Sulland]

in English:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv.fi%2Fsport%2Fralli%2Fuutine n%2Fartikkeli%2Ftommi-makisen-iskuryhma-kiertaa-jo-nyt-mm-rallikauden%2F5688310&edit-text=

[N.O.T]

the flop begins.

[pantealex]

the flop begins.

or NOT

[N.O.T]

or NOT

at best we are going to get a Suzuki kind of performance.

[dimviii]

Takamoto Katsuta. 1st start together is Arctic Lapland Rally Finland 28-30.1

Katsuta at 2015

https://youtu.be/CW9j49W4-k0

[stefanvv]

Interview with Makkinen at WRR right now

[seb_sh]

Interview with Makkinen at WRR right now

I missed it, what did he say?

[stefanvv]

I missed it, what did he say?

nothing new I guess, he seems satisfied how the development is going and still has to find the winning driver

[dimviii]

from rallye-magazin.de via google translate

Tommi Makinen is located in the Service Park of the Monte Carlo Rally the honor. The Toyota team boss wants to not only keep in touch with the scene and brought up to date state of affairs, he goes along with his sporting director Jarmo Lehtinen also targeted at recruitment. Especially with M-Sport observes the doings of the two fins with a certain suspicion. As with the introduction of Volkswagen and Hyundai, the team of Malcolm Wilson many good employees lost to the competition.
Meanwhile, the new Toyota team has grown to 40 people, and the work on the new World Rally Car are in full swing. "The CAD development of the car is finished, just we build the chassis for the first prototype. As of January we want to start with the tests "confirmed Lehtinen. So Toyota would be the first manufacturer, receives the test mode with a WRC, which was created completely by 2017er Regulations.
Where exactly held the rollout and the first test runs, currently is not yet clear. In March Father Frost should keep the team base in the Finnish Jyväskylä still firmly in his hand, an evasion in southern climes is therefore inevitable.
Even the driver who will drive the Yaris WRC, is still unknown. "It ghosts yes a few names in the scene around and it's no secret that Mikko Hirvonen and Juho Hänninen us as a test driver available," says Lehtinen.

[Sulland]

Bouffier may be the next testdriver, especially testing for asphalt!

[AndyRAC]

So none of the drivers who tested previously are being kept on? What a waste of time that was - I'd have thought Sarrazin would be kept for Tarmac testing. TMR are obviously making a fresh start.

[NoFear85]

Maybe Hanninen as a test driver

[Sulland]

Did they not say they will produce a R5 to gain experience on, before the WRCar?
Has that been abandoned?

[bluuford]

Katsuta at 2015

https://youtu.be/CW9j49W4-k0

We have new talen here, shy, hiding in the bushes: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZ6IjhJWkAAeLYg.jpg Picture from today Lapland Rally

[Rallyper]

Right car, wrong guy.

[Mariusz]

Bouffier may be the next testdriver, especially testing for asphalt!
Kubica would be even better. I think nobody can beat him in driving on tarmac.

[EightGear]

Kubica would be even better. I think nobody can beat him in driving on tarmac.
How many rallies did he win again?

[Mariusz]

How many rallies did he win again?
I don't know, just check on the Internet.

[N.O.T]

How many rallies did he win again?

the main problem with drivers with big fan bases is that they bring hordes of useless people with them. How many of those are going to stay in the sport now that Kubica got kicked out like a dog ? probably 60% of them will go with him, around 20% will leave after a few months and the rest might stay because they were rally fans in the first place and followed the sport for what it offers and not because their boyfriend joined.

now we hear voices about Kubica to become a test driver, because they think that a good test driver is the one who can drive like a madman up and down a road he has done a million times.

woof woof...

[Mariusz]

In a perfect world they would bring hordes of true rally fans. Hopefully you're not the 'elite', because I prefer these hordes of 'useless' fans as you call them who go to the stages, spend days in any weather to cheer their drivers and make numbers so sponsors see that there are people interested in sport instead of some grumpy old farts whose girlfriends got booted earlier and now they only complain about everything and bring nothing good to the sport.

[N.O.T]

I am not that old.

It will be interesting to see now that Kubica was thrown out of the sport if the people who supported him stay with the sport or follow him to the motorsport landfill.

[Mirek]

Even if 5% of them stay with the sport in a long term he still brought thousands to it. Anyway I don't see anything wrong with bringing huge interest about rallying even if only for couple of years. Quite the opposite. He made a huge promotion for WRC and the fact he failed doesn't change anything about it. In fact it brought a lot of reputation to the series from the fans of circuit racing as they saw how difficult it is for circuit stars to win something in rallying (Raikkonen did that too).

[Mariusz]

Even if 5% of them stay with the sport in a long term he still brought thousands to it. Anyway I don't see anything wrong with bringing huge interest about rallying even if only for couple of years. Quite the opposite. He made a huge promotion for WRC and the fact he failed doesn't change anything about it. In fact it brought a lot of reputation to the series from the fans of circuit racing as they saw how difficult it is for circuit stars to win something in rallying (Raikkonen did that too).
What he has failed so far is to earn a factory seat. There was a very long interview a few days ago and for me it looks like he just doesn't want to drive in WRC anymore because he can't be competitive in a private Fiesta (he was saying the same last year) and he is too ambitious to waste time driving for fun. I'm sure it's also more complicated than what everybody thinks.

[AL14]

The only one who lose here is not WRC or the fans (except those of Kubica of course), but Robert himself.
I agree with him, without a factory seat, if you are ambitous it will become a "waste of time" after a while... But it's sadly only his fault. With more factories coming in the sport, team principals are hungry for good drivers, they would not hesitate a moment to take him if he had became one of them, also considering the awareness he could bring towards their team. Unfortunately, even having a notable potential at the beginning of his WRC career, he didn't had the right approach to the sport.
Good luck for his new challenges.

[Mirek]

Yes, the reason why he doesn't have a works seat is himself. No team needs a driver who crashes in average more than once per every event no matter how fast or spectacular he is. Sadly he hasn't learned how to finish even in several complete seasons and without that everyone is finished sooner or later.

[Mariusz]

It's a vicious cycle, there is a group that expecting him to finish every rally, there is another group that expects him to be one of the fastest and then there is lack of gravel experience. If he had finished rallies driving like Prokop then the other group would be saying that he was too slow for works seat. But he's not the first case that proves that changing motosport and be successful is a very hard task.

[stefanvv]

What did Kubica do to make a manufacturer interested with him? He is fast, ok, but does a manufacturer want 1-2 best stage times per few rallies, and then DNF 1-2 times per rally? Kubica is great and fast driver, very fast, but the rally doesn't require this fastness, it requires to be fast and consistent to finish the sprint marathon, not just the sprint. Anyway I was enjoying Kubica being in WRC, very spectacular, hope everything goes how he himself wants, for sure he deserves to race.....

[Mirek]

It's a vicious cycle, there is a group that expecting him to finish every rally, there is another group that expects him to be one of the fastest and then there is lack of gravel experience. If he had finished rallies driving like Prokop then the other group would be saying that he was too slow for works seat. But he's not the first case that proves that changing motosport and be successful is a very hard task.

Nobody was winning since the first stage. Neither Loeb, nor Ogier did. There is absolutely no need to start winning right from the beginning especially when You come from another discipline. In fact very few drivers won something before they were chosen by manufacturers. Kubica just proved again that the way to the manufacturer seat doesn't lead through kamikaze style.

Seriously, Robert managed to crash once, twice, three times or even four times per one rally and he has been repeating the same story again and again for how long? Three years? How can anyone expect to be chosen by a manufacturer when his only results are retirements? I can understand Robert that he tries to push and keep with the top guys. He has the attitude and the killer instinct in him. What I don't understand is how come he never realized that what he does leads nowhere? Tell me what would he loose if he finished several events around 6-8th place? Do You really think that it's worse than to crash every second day?

[Mariusz]

Seriously, Robert managed to crash once, twice, three times or even four times per one rally and he has been repeating the same story again and again for how long? Three years? How can anyone expect to be chosen by a manufacturer when his only results are retirements? I can understand Robert that he tries to push and keep with the top guys. He has the attitude and the killer instinct in him. What I don't understand is how come he never realized that what he does leads nowhere? Tell me what would he loose if he finished several events around 6-8th place? Do You really think that it's worse than to crash every second day?
Oh, was there a rally he had 4 times? When? 3 times happened maybe in 2014, but I have a bad memory and I actually don't care. I think finishing around 6-8th that was his realistic expectation and goal for most events, unfortunately he made mistakes and sometimes had car failures. I just can't believe that people can think he is always pushing on purpose.

[stefanvv]

Let's go back to the topic - how could Kubica help TMR to develop their cars? Pushing a car to the limit doesn't seem the right thing for the job, but analyse how the car behaves under different circumstances. So how does he know what is better for the car to go faster?

[WUff1]

Don´t blame his driving skills and don´t forget his handicap. I´m sure many of his accidents were caused by this.

[Sulland]

Don´t blame his driving skills and don´t forget his handicap. I´m sure many of his accidents were caused by this.

I have not seen what his right arm can and can not do in a car. But from the few videos and pics I have seen it look like it is hampering him quite a bit.
I guess many are overlooking this fact.
On the other hand, you should think there is less arm movement in a racing car compared to rally.
Lets see what he will do in 2016, the talent is undisputed!!

[Mirek]

Nobody is overlooking his handicap. It affects him for sure but it changes nothing. Facts say that he isn't able to finish rallies. It doesn't matter how fast, how spectacular or how handicapped he is if he can't get to the finish ramp. I know it sounds harsh but that's how it is. I wish he was able to do that but I don't believe in that anymore. It took too long without any sign of change.

[OldF]

Sorry for interrupting the Kubica discussion but here’s something about Toyota.:)

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport/toy-story-tommi-m%C3%A4kinen-and-toyota-are-back-wrc?utm_content=buffer79ce8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[Jack4688`]

Sorry for interrupting the Kubica discussion but here’s something about Toyota.:)

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport/toy-story-tommi-m%C3%A4kinen-and-toyota-are-back-wrc?utm_content=buffer79ce8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Nothing new here, other than now even Autocar are also allowing David Evans to turn all of three sentences from someone into a full story. It won't be long before he is allowed to write his crap in all of haymarket's outlets, Pistonheads will be next!

[Mariusz]

Let's go back to the topic - how could Kubica help TMR to develop their cars? Pushing a car to the limit doesn't seem the right thing for the job, but analyse how the car behaves under different circumstances. So how does he know what is better for the car to go faster?
Here is my quick list how/why:
As a person he has over 20 years of competitive driving experience on tarmac, up to the most professional level in the world which means he has extensive practical and theoretical knowledge of how to drive, test and setup a car for asphalt. He has a very good ability to work with engineers and explain all the issues he notices. This was his strong side when he was in F1 and in the last season he was working a lot on the car between the rallies in their garage so I would image he knows quite a lot about the inside of a rally car now. He's very committed, passionate and puts a lot of attention to details when he's working on something. It may bother some types of people but what TMR is saying everywhere they really need people with passion and commitment. As a driver he is in top 4 of fastest rally drivers in the world, so I'm sure he knows what needs to be done for a car to go faster.

[stefanvv]

Here is my quick list how/why:
As a person he has over 20 years of competitive driving experience on tarmac, up to the most professional level in the world which means he has extensive practical and theoretical knowledge of how to drive, test and setup a car for asphalt. He has a very good ability to work with engineers and explain all the issues he notices. This was his strong side when he was in F1 and in the last season he was working a lot on the car between the rallies in their garage so I would image he knows quite a lot about the inside of a rally car now. He's very committed, passionate and puts a lot of attention to details when he's working on something. It may bother some types of people but what TMR is saying everywhere they really need people with passion and commitment. As a driver he is in top 4 of fastest rally drivers in the world, so I'm sure he knows what needs to be done for a car to go faster.

Yes, I'm sure he knows how to setup his car for asphalt to be very fast for him. That's not what is bothering me, what is bothering me is he capable to guide for a correct setup for a rally stage, not just for him, but for any other driver who might drive that car. From what I've seen he has different approach of driving, involving very late braking and over-steering on corner exits. Besides as I read somewhere Makkinen is not that kind of driver to develop his car 100% fast during tests, so there might be conflict with ones and other approach.

[Mirek]

The fastest setup isn't always the best as the rally doesn't cover 4 kilometers but 400. The ideal solution is often tricky to find and it's quite hard to believe it can be find by someone who can't finish himself. Anyway development work is mostly given to someone who has a strong reputation. Very often the best development drivers aren't the fastest ones around - Mark Higgins, Sebastian Lindholm, Roman Kresta, Philippe Bugalski, Freddy Loix, Raimund Baumschlager or others made a lot of job in development of cars without being world champions.

[Lundefaret]

Yes, I'm sure he knows how to setup his car for asphalt to be very fast for him. That's not what is bothering me, what is bothering me is he capable to guide for a correct setup for a rally stage, not just for him, but for any other driver who might drive that car. From what I've seen he has different approach of driving, involving very late braking and over-steering on corner exits. Besides as I read somewhere Makkinen is not that kind of driver to develop his car 100% fast during tests, so there might be conflict with ones and other approach.

Hello stefanvv: To clar up a little misunderstandng: Mäkinen wants to develop a car that is 100% fast during Development testing. Pre Event Testing is another matter. But M¨kinen ha a very Clear approach to how he wants a rally car to behave. Mäkinens prolem is that non of the drivers available knows how to drive a car that handles like that, except Ogier. So either Mäkinen has to teach them, and for these guys opening their minds to that can be very difficult., or he has to develop a car that is not so edgy, so that more drivers can drive it, but then it wont be as fast.

[stefanvv]

Hello stefanvv: To clar up a little misunderstandng: Mäkinen wants to develop a car that is 100% fast during Development testing. Pre Event Testing is another matter. But M¨kinen ha a very Clear approach to how he wants a rally car to behave. Mäkinens prolem is that non of the drivers available knows how to drive a car that handles like that, except Ogier. So either Mäkinen has to teach them, and for these guys opening their minds to that can be very difficult., or he has to develop a car that is not so edgy, so that more drivers can drive it, but then it wont be as fast.

Yes I know the developed car must be tested at 100% at certain point, but my point was more like it shouldn't be "reverse engineered" by that behaviour for just 1 driver, more like make it stable/strong and fast enough for a few drivers, so it might have potential for further "fine tuning" for every driver.
I agree though Ogier is the perfect man for this job currently on the field, and then his driving and Kubica's (for the context of the discussion) are very different. Both very fast, but the former knows what is needed to bring it to the finish winning the event.

[Mirek]

Hello stefanvv: To clar up a little misunderstandng: Mäkinen wants to develop a car that is 100% fast during Development testing. Pre Event Testing is another matter. But M¨kinen ha a very Clear approach to how he wants a rally car to behave. Mäkinens prolem is that non of the drivers available knows how to drive a car that handles like that, except Ogier. So either Mäkinen has to teach them, and for these guys opening their minds to that can be very difficult., or he has to develop a car that is not so edgy, so that more drivers can drive it, but then it wont be as fast.

Since Polo is partially based on Fabia design it might be interesting for Mäkinen to try to attract drivers who were involved in Škoda developement testing. Kopecký is out of question, Hänninen might be already hired but there is still also Loix, Baumschlager or Kresta. Baumschlager is rather old and strongly tied to Škoda but the other two are quite free, having their own networks of specialists and very close ties with Reiger (may be advantage or disadvange in the same time).

[Rally Power]

Toyota testing line up completed: Hirvonen; Haninnen and Bouffier.

For 2017 Makinen is looking for Lappi and Suninen's already linked with the team.

It seems there are already plenty of good drivers to make a strong WRC return!

http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/hirvonen-gets-wrc-testing-role-with-toyota-670281/
http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/toyota-interested-in-signing-lappi-for-2017-670916/

[AL14]

Toyota testing line up completed: Hirvonen; Haninnen and Bouffier.

For 2017 Makinen is looking for Lappi and Suninen's already linked with the team.

It seems there are already plenty of good drivers to make a strong WRC return!

http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/hirvonen-gets-wrc-testing-role-with-toyota-670281/
http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/toyota-interested-in-signing-lappi-for-2017-670916/

Would be funny if they will have a line up that is actually slower than the test drivers :)

[Rally Power]

Would be funny if they will have a line up that is actually slower than the test drivers :)

Maybe some of those test drivers can be part of the 2017 line up ;)

[liposh]

I think VW wouldn´t let Lappi go. Also he would be dummy. VW is best possible choice.

[denkimi]

Don´t blame his driving skills and don´t forget his handicap. I´m sure many of his accidents were caused by this.
here you can see his hand:
https://youtu.be/9EBB3T8eyN8?t=8s
https://youtu.be/poeNFaSLBfI?t=26s
it seems he can't close his hand completely, so he can't pull anything. that's why he has to push the handbrake.

his crashes have nothing to do with this handicap. he has a different, much bigger one: malfunctioning feet. his right feet stays on the throttle for too long, and most importantly, his left foot often brakes too late. but i doubt that has anything to do with his accident in italy.

[Simmi]

In Motorsport News today Makinen says he is in conversations with Petter Solberg about working together. Doesn't specify whether it's a test role or for a driving return.

Tommi says he hasn't spoken to Loeb yet despite the rumours. But he said if Loeb is interested then so would he.

He said Ogier is under contract until the end of 2017. The only big name seemingly available for next year is Neuville. It seems more and more than Toyota will pair an established guy (Solberg/Hirvonen) with a young guy (Lappi) - test and prove the car in 2017 before going for a big name in 2018.

Maybe I'd missed this but the article also says that Toyota have a WRC deal in place until the end of 2022. So six seasons.

[EightGear]

Hirvonen/Solberg?

........

Besides, that would be a bit of an anticlimax to the silly season even before it has started.

[SubaruNorway]

Petter just signed a 3 year deal With Bertel O. Steen according to some rumours, the importer of Mercedes-Benz, smart, Peugeot, Kia and Citroen. So that's why he did the old man "hidden" camera With a Mercedes.

[AL14]

In Motorsport News today Makinen says he is in conversations with Petter Solberg about working together. Doesn't specify whether it's a test role or for a driving return.

Tommi says he hasn't spoken to Loeb yet despite the rumours. But he said if Loeb is interested then so would he.

He said Ogier is under contract until the end of 2017. The only big name seemingly available for next year is Neuville. It seems more and more than Toyota will pair an established guy (Solberg/Hirvonen) with a young guy (Lappi) - test and prove the car in 2017 before going for a big name in 2018.

Maybe I'd missed this but the article also says that Toyota have a WRC deal in place until the end of 2022. So six seasons.
About Lappi i heard a rumor about Joukhi taking him from EVEN management. Is this true?

I think, if true, that there are two reasons why Lappi could chose to say bye bye to the faster car.
One is that, as it seems, there is no guarantee for a seat in 2017 since it looks like Latvala is going to renew and he doesn't want to stagnate in wrc2 once more.
The other is that we are all talking about him as the next VW driver but we are forgetting that he is not alone at Skoda, that his teammate was better placed than him last year in wrc2 and that so far is more reliable...

[liposh]

My foresee is : VW will offer Lappi contract for 2017. Maybe not all rounds but just to not let him go and shut his mouth. Lappi will stay with EVEN (see his Monte Carlo livery. Do you think the end of cooperation is coming? ) Kopecky will stay with Skoda and drive whatever Skoda will ask him to do. Even in 2050 he will drive czech championship in Skoda (because who cares about WRC2 when you can be 35-times czech champion :D ). (btw and in 2050 Jaromir Jagr will still play ice hockey) Makkinen will be obliged to ask Tidemand to join Toyota. SO Let´s see next January :)

[AL14]

My foresee is : VW will offer Lappi contract for 2017. Maybe not all rounds but just to not let him go and shut his mouth. Lappi will stay with EVEN (see his Monte Carlo livery. Do you think the end of cooperation is coming? ) Kopecky will stay with Skoda and drive whatever Skoda will ask him to do. Even in 2050 he will drive czech championship in Skoda (because who cares about WRC2 when you can be 35-times czech champion :D ). (btw and in 2050 Jaromir Jagr will still play ice hockey) Makkinen will be obliged to ask Tidemand to join Toyota. SO Let´s see next January :)

hahaha Kopecky 35 times czech champion was funny :D

Btw, as long as Latvala, Mikkelsen and Ogier will be in VW there will be no place for anyone else since there will not be 4 Polos as far as we know.