Toyota announces WRC plans

[RS]

Is there any logic in using a completely inexperienced driver for testing?

I can see the logic in developing the driver for the future, but in terms of the car..

[OldF]

Something in English also. Not as comprehensive as compared to Finnish news, but something nonetheless.

http://www.nesteoilrallyfinland.fi/en/ralli/uutiset/tommi/

From facebook

https://www.facebook.com/rallyparadise/posts/861092087315556

[bearclaw]

so they can let the wrc car, trucks, trailers and the whole stuff up there in finland… ;)

[AMSS]

Jouhki interview....

http://yle.fi/urheilu/rallin_suomalaismanagerin_sympatiat_entiselle_suoj atille_se_on_aika_tiukka_paikka_tommille/8138428

[dimviii]

Jouhki interview....

http://yle.fi/urheilu/rallin_suomalaismanagerin_sympatiat_entiselle_suoj atille_se_on_aika_tiukka_paikka_tommille/8138428

any summary to help us?

[Miika]

any summary to help us?

In the beginning, TMG said they know how to do things and that they will build the best car in the world - and offered Tommi a leading role in their project. That didn´t suite Tommi´s (or Mr. Toyoda´s) plans/ideas of how things should be done, and at that point Tommi made it clear he (his team) would want to take over the designing/building of the car as well. So at least to Jouhki, TMG´s role in this operation is still a bit unclear ("some co-operation will be done").

Also talking about Suninen´s situation, contract is with TMG so it is unclear how things continue with this Operation Tommi taking over.

[Simmi]

Honestly the whole thing is quite baffling. Sounds like Tommi wanted a larger slice of the project but admits that they don't actually have good enough facilities right now. TMG has expertise and literally everything you need to make the project work. But they've been sidelined?

Does anyone know who is undertaking the testing of the Yaris right now? TMG or Makinen? And who actually owns that car?

[AMSS]

At least until yesterday evening it was 100% sure TMG, today who knows....

[dimviii]

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/july/makinen-yaris/page/2579--12-12-.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[dodge33cymru]

What on earth are they upto, and why are they suddenly doing it all in public?

[AndyRAC]

It's almost as if Makinen & Akio are on an ego trip to prove they can do a better job than TMG in Cologne.

[N.O.T]

Jukhi smells money and his most loyal dog also... it has been long time since he fed one of his nobodies to the sport.

Taking control of a whole team is far more beneficial.

2 years maximum then a nice flop.

[Mirek]

It's almost as if Makinen & Akio are on an ego trip to prove they can do a better job than TMG in Cologne.

Frankly the recent rally attempts of TMG Yaris R1 and FT-86 R3 have turned into a fail, so...

[makinen_fan]

Frankly the recent rally attempts of TMG Yaris R1 and FT-86 R3 have turned into a fail, so...

Plus their F1 and WEC projects are not that successful. Hopefully this will not turn to be a new 'Suzuki' effort

[dimviii]

Wilson could do this job.Fast,reliable,and quaranteeded results.Even cheaper imho.

[Eli]

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/july/makinen-yaris/page/2579--12-12-.html

[AndyRAC]

Plus their F1 and WEC projects are not that successful. Hopefully this will not turn to be a new 'Suzuki' effort

Er, they're the reigning WEC Champions.....how is that not successful? They are however, having a bad defence of their Titles.

[Rally Power]

It's almost as if Makinen & Akio are on an ego trip to prove they can do a better job than TMG in Cologne.

Why are hardcore rally fans so reluctant to see a passionate CEO giving a chance to a multiple world rally champion in order to generate a rally structure able to win in WRC and produce cars for privateers?

Ok, Makinen hit a million dollars jackpot in a lucky way, but why can't people believe he’ll deliver?

Because he’s in remote Finland…weren’t the Italians, located in the south extreme of Europe, the dominance force of rally during so many years?

Because he hasn’t organization skills…weren’t TMR Gr.N Imprezas able to broke Prodrive hegemony and sell well around the world?

Because TMG has already the capacity to do it…weren’t they unable to win in F1 and Le Mans?

For sure it’s strange for outsiders, like most of us, to see all the ups and downs of this project, but seeing it revised with such a passion and commitment makes one believe that easily there will be the competence and the efficacy to make it successful.

Best wishes to the Totoya Gazoo WRC Team!

[br21]

In my opinion team will be based around Jyaskyla and based mostly on TMR team, I mean Tommi will build team he likes to have. So they will need a lot of people, as money is not a problem and Toyota really wants good results from the beginning. Japanese people are really disappointed by current TMG work - their Yaris is not that good, their recent rally projects like GT86 R3 are bad and their racing record is not that good either.

[dimviii]

WRC » New Toyota boss Makinen looks to bin Yaris project 9 July 2015
New Toyota team principal Tommi Makinen says he could make large scale changes by scrapping development of the Yaris World Rally car

New Toyota team principal Tommi Makinen says he could make large scale changes by scrapping the development of the Yaris World Rally car and opting for a new model for the team's highly anticipated return to the WRC in 2017.

The four-time world rally champion was announced as the new team boss at Toyota earlier this week and after making initial introductions he explained to German-based Toyota Motorsport (TMG) that he wants to take a hands-on approach and may halt the Yaris development altogether.

Current test drivers Sebastian Lindholm and Stephane Sarrazin have been working on the Yaris World Rally car since January and were joined by new development drivers Eric Camilli and Teemu Suninen who recently signed with TMG.

However, according to wrc.com Makinen is already assessing whether the Yaris machine is the right direction for Toyota or whether they should start again with a new car.

“Even though we will need to have a proper test driver, I think it will be good if I drive too,” Makinen told wrc.com.“There are some ideas that I have which might be able to help and in any case it is good to get inputs and opinions from as many people as possible.”

Makinen has some experience of running a rally team as he set up his own squad which competes in his home country of Finland after he retired from driving. The 51-year-old claimed 24 WRC event victories in his career on his way to four consecutive WRC titles between 1996-1999.

“We have a huge amount of work between now and 2017 to test the car in every circumstance - snow, gravel, high altitude, low altitude. We will need to test everywhere in the world,” he explained. “Since I stopped driving I have had my own team – Tommi Mäkinen Racing – which has been preparing Group N cars for quite a while, so I have experience of running a team.

“But of course the challenge is bigger this time and there is a lot more responsibility and things to do.”


http://www.crash.net/wrc/news/220911/1/new-toyota-boss-makinen-looks-to-bin-yaris-project.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

[Sulland]

Will we see the Celica name doing a comeback?
Would be nice!

[MikeD]

Jukhi smells money and his most loyal dog also... it has been long time since he fed one of his nobodies to the sport.

Taking control of a whole team is far more beneficial.

2 years maximum then a nice flop.

Look at Honda, Toyota, Subaru and Suzuki over the last 10-15 years in F1, WRC, WEC and WTCC. It has been nothing but flops, flops and yet more flops.

Japan today, is so far away from being cutting edge and Toyota coming back to the WRC will be just another flop. It's the European car makers that dominates motorsport today and will continue to do so.

[RS]

Look at Honda, Toyota, Subaru and Suzuki over the last 10-15 years in F1, WRC, WEC and WTCC. It has been nothing but flops, flops and yet more flops.

Japan today, is so far away from being cutting edge and Toyota coming back to the WRC will be just another flop. It's the European car makers that dominates motorsport today and will continue to do so.

When you think about it, when Subaru, Toyota and Mitsubishi were successful in WRC the cars were developed in Europe, so there is hope for the new Toyota project yet..

[MikeD]

When you think about it, when Subaru, Toyota and Mitsubishi were successful in WRC the cars were developed in Europe, so there is hope for the new Toyota project yet..

But that's a long time ago, and since then the whole Japanese philosofi of doing things, has led to a closed country who doesn't want inspiration from the outside world, but instead produce more diapers to old people than to children.

No doubt Toyota they have to develop in Europe to stand any chance of success, but they have to limit all japanese influence in running the team, which I think will be difficult. So I call yet another massive flop that will last 2 years before they pull out with yet another pathetic excuse.

[Rallyper]

Not long ago we all wanted more manufacturers in the WRC. Now when the 5th is coming (I count them all) why complain of things we don´t know a s**t about?
Let´s wish them all luck and that WRC gets more competition and more good young drivers to beat Sebs.
So no more whining about flops.

[bowler]

Not long ago we all wanted more manufacturers in the WRC. Now when the 5th is coming (I count them all) why complain of things we don´t know a s**t about?
Let´s wish them all luck and that WRC gets more competition and more good young drivers to beat Sebs.
So no more whining about flops.

Agree completely. Armchair experts making judgements on dreams they've never been able to achieve

[N.O.T]

Not long ago we all wanted more manufacturers in the WRC. Now when the 5th is coming (I count them all) why complain of things we don´t know a s**t about?
Let´s wish them all luck and that WRC gets more competition and more good young drivers to beat Sebs.
So no more whining about flops.

because we want manufacturers that at least will try and challenge the established order... we do not need suzuki and mini efforts. Makinen is a nobody as a team manager, his team was useless all these years, a laughing stock. And we all know Jukhis ways with drivers and teams...

[Rallyper]

because we want manufacturers that at least will try and challenge the established order... we do not need suzuki and mini efforts. Makinen is a nobody as a team manager, his team was useless all these years, a laughing stock. And we all know Jukhis ways with drivers and teams...

I think you mix up many things. You´ve already seen so much more testing from Toyota than from the Mini or Suzuki manus. Saying they are not trying, from what we´ve seen so far?
And judging out Mäkinen at this point can´t be done. And Jouhki - what´s his involvement, you say?

[DonJippo]

And we all know Jukhis ways with drivers and teams...

Jouhki has nothing to do with this.

[N.O.T]

Jouhki has nothing to do with this.

but somehow an unproven, untested nobody driver he manages got in the toyota team... hmmmm

[DonJippo]

but somehow an unproven, untested nobody driver he manages got in the toyota team... hmmmm

Isn't it the whole purpose of being a manager to get a contract for your driver? Why it is so bad if your name happens to be Jouhki? And if you would have paid attention you might have noticed that the deal is with TMG not with Toyota.

[janvanvurpa]

Isn't it the whole purpose of being a manager to get a contract for your driver? Why it is so bad if your name happens to be Jouhki? And if you would have paid attention you might have noticed that the deal is with TMG not with Toyota.


Why mess up the discussion with simple facts and reality? If you stick to simple facts like "what is the point of a manager" then how can poor little NOT continue to sit in his basement lab and seethe with jealousy and rage in frustration? It is important to him to sit in his basement lab and seethe with jealousy and rage in frustration...

And you come and calmly explain simple things he has no clue about and you can ruin everything he has accomplished in rally..
ei ei ei, bad Finn, :arrows:you go to bed and no Kossu for you tonight.

[Lundefaret]

Tommi Mäkkinen as the manager of Toyotas return to WRC will be very good.
Tommi is thé driver with the best head for set up that WRC has ever seen. His philosophy is very correct, and this personal experience will be very important (something TMG would never have been able to produce.)
Tommi has also had great positive effect on other drivers, especially Petter Solberg, who owns a part of his WRC title to Tommi.
I have really high hopes for this, off cource it will be down to many factors (engineers, drivers, budget etc), but all inn all it could come very good indeed - good luck!

[giù tutto!]

Eh, when the testing and set up of the rally car has been the job of team principal? In organization like WRC team there is couple of other things to do for a team principal, if the target is properly working team.

As seen on other newcomer teams (VW, Hyundai) it is possible to build up winning car without such a personal experienced ex-driver as a team principal and car developer.

A team is only as strong as its weakest link.

[OldF]

Of course it’s not the task for a team principal to set up the car for the drivers (whoever they will be) when the team is up and running but I think he can give his experience and opinions when the car is developed and before it’s homologated. After homologation there’s not much to do if something is basically wrong.

[Simmi]

It's really just dawning on me that TMG have been testing a WRC car intensively all over Europe for 16 months - for absolutely nothing.

I did think back at the start of last year it all seemed a bit extreme ahead of 2017. Now it just seems utterly ludicrous. From what I can see all TMG will do on this new project is engine development work (confirmed by Tommi in Motorsport News). But for 2017 we have the different restrictor - more power, more torque. None of the drivers have contracts with Toyota Gazoo. I doubt any of the crew do either. It seems like the only hired 'official' people so far are Tommi and likely George Donaldson.

It just does not make one jot of sense and we're left with what looks like a well sorted, heavily tested, stillborn WRC car. Is there any chance at all that TMG could enter it into some rallies next year off their own back? Otherwise it will just be a Cologne museum piece, parked next to the TF110 which never raced, but was apparently going to be a Grand Prix winner.

[Lundefaret]

It's really just dawning on me that TMG have been testing a WRC car intensively all over Europe for 16 months - for absolutely nothing.

I did think back at the start of last year it all seemed a bit extreme ahead of 2017. Now it just seems utterly ludicrous. From what I can see all TMG will do on this new project is engine development work (confirmed by Tommi in Motorsport News). But for 2017 we have the different restrictor - more power, more torque. None of the drivers have contracts with Toyota Gazoo. I doubt any of the crew do either. It seems like the only hired 'official' people so far are Tommi and likely George Donaldson.

It just does not make one jot of sense and we're left with what looks like a well sorted, heavily tested, stillborn WRC car. Is there any chance at all that TMG could enter it into some rallies next year off their own back? Otherwise it will just be a Cologne museum piece, parked next to the TF110 which never raced, but was apparently going to be a Grand Prix winner.

TMG has previously stated that they have done this as a solo project with possibilities for selling to privateer teams. TMG is owned by Toyota, but is run very independently (like other Toyota-owned companies), and Mr. Toyoda has been very outspoken when it comes to him disliking the decissions TMG has made regarding the WRC-project.

And no, it is not an absolute need for a team manager to be able to test rally cars, but when You have a so brilliant "rally-head" as Tommi Mäkkinen, it is off cource a great benefit. He could be of real help to the engineers and the drivers.

Jost Capito is off cource a very good team manager, but its clearly he has some short comings regarding the management of drivers. Ogier is the best, near perfect, but Mikkelsen and Latvala has not showed more improvement than should be expected, and Capito has not had any answers when it comes to turning Latvalas fait from crash to victories - the drivers seems very much left to their own (and their own management). In a different sport, the team manager would have taken a much more pro active role in developing the athletes, hiring the right driver coaches, mental coaches etc, but in this aspect rallying as a whole has ha long way to go.
And if You want to beat Ogier, You have to start walking that route, or else it will be another 9 WRC titles by a French Seb... :)

[Mariusz]

Why would Jost Capito want to have more fighting between his drivers? I'd say his goal is to win manufacturers championship and to have all three drivers in the top 3 at the end of season. Making Mikkelsen and Latvala better he's risking that Ogier can start making more mistakes and losing manufacturer points. And when Ogier starts seeing that he's not crushing everybody like in the last 2 years he might start thinking about switching to a different car.

[vkangas]

For me it seems pretty obvious (based on public info) that the performance of TMG's WRC Yaris has been carefully evaluated and Toyota is not happy with it. It might be ok but their target in the future is of course to beat VW.

As Mirek pointed out TMG's recent projects have not been huge successes so perfectly right thing to do is to try something completely new. I have no contacts to TMG but for me it seems that it's a little bit old-school R&D unit full of middle-aged men (after F1 project was ended). Why else would they say publicly that now they want to buid a young team and attract new talents etc.

The one thing I fear is that Tommi sets up Toyota's operations to Finland even if it's not an optimal solution. The whole thing is perfectly doable from Finland but it's really a serious effort (+money) that is needed to attract the best engineering talents from other WRC (+F1 etc) teams from Central Europe.

[Simmi]

I have no contacts to TMG but for me it seems that it's a little bit old-school R&D unit full of middle-aged men (after F1 project was ended). Why else would they say publicly that now they want to build a young team and attract new talents etc.

Maybe check out this great piece on TMG headquarters and the wealth of facilities they have. Say what you want about TMG's projects, but there is no chance that Tommi will be able to put together a factory which comes in any way close to this.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/09/tmg-toyota-motorsport-tour/

Have to admit I hadn't seen any reports of TMG looking to sell the Yaris WRC to privateers. Surely the window for that happening is closing fast.

[vkangas]

Maybe check out this great piece on TMG headquarters and the wealth of facilities they have. Say what you want about TMG's projects, but there is no chance that Tommi will be able to put together a factory which comes in any way close to this.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/09/tmg-toyota-motorsport-tour/

Have to admit I hadn't seen any reports of TMG looking to sell the Yaris WRC to privateers. Surely the window for that happening is closing fast.
I sure agree with you. I was a bit provocative with my comment. However fancy facilities can also be very misleading. Not so many success stories start inside big corporate buildings. Too much moving parts and processes to be agile. Usually what is needed is a quite small but exceptional team with all the decision power and enough resources (support personnel, facilities, machines etc). By building a new team of 100+ members Toyota is trying to do just that.

[Vaggelis27]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hd5FYnCz0A&feature=youtu.be

[Lundefaret]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hd5FYnCz0A&feature=youtu.be

Would bet quit a lot on it being Tommi himself driving the GT86, very Tommi and very Nose End First. Looks "slow", but very effective. Cool that they still work with the GT86 :)

[Lundefaret]

For me it seems pretty obvious (based on public info) that the performance of TMG's WRC Yaris has been carefully evaluated and Toyota is not happy with it. It might be ok but their target in the future is of course to beat VW.

As Mirek pointed out TMG's recent projects have not been huge successes so perfectly right thing to do is to try something completely new. I have no contacts to TMG but for me it seems that it's a little bit old-school R&D unit full of middle-aged men (after F1 project was ended). Why else would they say publicly that now they want to buid a young team and attract new talents etc.

The one thing I fear is that Tommi sets up Toyota's operations to Finland even if it's not an optimal solution. The whole thing is perfectly doable from Finland but it's really a serious effort (+money) that is needed to attract the best engineering talents from other WRC (+F1 etc) teams from Central Europe.

Back in the days I interviewed Flavio Briattore, also on his view of Toyota not winning in F1. He laughed a bit and said that they gathered way to much data, and prioritized all data equal. This was at the time i believe Renault F1 was experimenting with weight distribution on the Santa Pod dragstrip etc. TMG is a very impressive outfit, but they have less success to show for than the facilities conveys. In every corporation it is important to have a very clear picture of where You are going, who is in charge of what, etc (communication I think its called), and the bigger the organisation the more important the clarity is.
In VW this works very well with a triangle of Jost Capito, FX and Ogier.
I hope Tommi Mäkinen can lead the way in the same manor.

One thing that will be beneficial is that he "grew up" in a very family-like team with Mitsubishi.
One thing that can be a challenge is Tommi being Finnish, and Finnish people doesn't have the reputation to be to outspoken, and especially when there is problems/challenges they often tend to step back in silent contemplation in stead of team communication.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Tommi, I even got to passanger him in the Evo 8 I had brought to Finland (which was a bit special since he was long in to his Subaru contract), and he is more outspoken than the typical Finn, but leading a big corporation with a Toyota WRC effort will be, will be a challenge.

I think he will do very well. The question will be if he can get the right drivers. A driver that would be very good for him is actually Neuville, all be it that he is in a slump. Neuville cand drive very effectively (Nose End First) when he has the right set up, is in the right mood, is not stressed etc, but he seems to have no clue how to get back in "the zone." Tommi could fix that. But that would mean that Neuville has to be open for input, and humble.

[stefanvv]

Back in the days I interviewed Flavio Briattore, also on his view of Toyota not winning in F1. He laughed a bit and said that they gathered way to much data, and prioritized all data equal. This was at the time i believe Renault F1 was experimenting with weight distribution on the Santa Pod dragstrip etc. TMG is a very impressive outfit, but they have less success to show for than the facilities conveys. In every corporation it is important to have a very clear picture of where You are going, who is in charge of what, etc (communication I think its called), and the bigger the organisation the more important the clarity is.
In VW this works very well with a triangle of Jost Capito, FX and Ogier.
I hope Tommi Mäkinen can lead the way in the same manor.

One thing that will be beneficial is that he "grew up" in a very family-like team with Mitsubishi.
One thing that can be a challenge is Tommi being Finnish, and Finnish people doesn't have the reputation to be to outspoken, and especially when there is problems/challenges they often tend to step back in silent contemplation in stead of team communication.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Tommi, I even got to passanger him in the Evo 8 I had brought to Finland (which was a bit special since he was long in to his Subaru contract), and he is more outspoken than the typical Finn, but leading a big corporation with a Toyota WRC effort will be, will be a challenge.

I think he will do very well. The question will be if he can get the right drivers. A driver that would be very good for him is actually Neuville, all be it that he is in a slump. Neuville cand drive very effectively (Nose End First) when he has the right set up, is in the right mood, is not stressed etc, but he seems to have no clue how to get back in "the zone." Tommi could fix that. But that would mean that Neuville has to be open for input, and humble.

what do You think of the challenge in terms of logistics and international team based in Finland? we all know Makkinen is excellent driver, and probably will be good as wrc team manager, but it'll work more "globally"?

[stefanvv]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hd5FYnCz0A&feature=youtu.be

it would be nice GT86 for a wrc car

[Vaggelis27]

is tommi in yaris???? :/

[pantealex]

is tommi in yaris???? :/

NO

[Barreis]

Tomi in racing shoes...
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/wm/videos/2015/rallye-finnland/maekinen-gt86-4x4-test/

[manthey]

seems he has still the rhythm

[Lundefaret]

what do You think of the challenge in terms of logistics and international team based in Finland? we all know Makkinen is excellent driver, and probably will be good as wrc team manager, but it'll work more "globally"?

Team base in Finland:

Pros:
- Can become very a tight nit group
- A lot of local rally knowledge
- A lot of test roads
- Many very clever Finns in computer industry (Nokia and others)
- Tommi (team manager) is on home soil, and whiten comfort zone
- Good local production of specialized parts (Nokia and more)

Cons:
- Can be difficult to attract foreigners
- Most locals speak poor English
- Further to go travel most rallies and tests outside Finland
- Difficult if there is a change of team manager in the future (less options if not successful)

But, a WRC effort is European no matter where You build You base.
Both the test team and the WRC team proper is on the road most of the year, and they do a lot of km ´s, so I personally don't think its travel distance that is the deciding factor.
To be able to have some very good test roads out the back door can be a huge benefit, that is an enormous luxury not common with European based teams. So the total km´s traveled including "day-to-day" testing can actually be quit similar if one takes this in to account. The important factor here is to find roads with different characters, and on both gravel, snow and tarmac.

Going with the gut feeling, I would suggest placing the team in Finland.
Going with a more objective frame of mind it would be strange not to use the TMG facilities.
A compromise would be to have the main base in Europe, and a satellite base in Finland.

What do I think will happen?
Toyoda has said that this is not going to be run from TMG, but from his own Gazoo Racing. Gazoo Racing Europe will be a "new" company, and I interpret that as this effort will be built from scratch. Japan, Europe, Finland? My best guess of right now is actually that it will be based in Finland, but I would like to hear more qualified guesses :)

What do You think StefanVV?

[Lundefaret]

Tomi in racing shoes...
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/wm/videos/2015/rallye-finnland/maekinen-gt86-4x4-test/


This is Nose End First-porn :)
So many nuances of well timed inputs, and a clear overall plan of the driving. And such a willingness to be slow in some parts of the corner to be fast overall. Text book :)

[Lundefaret]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=10&v=pvp3__Oegf0

[Simmi]

It will be interesting to see how they integrate the Japanese driver(s) into the programme. Another random element to this whole thing. Are they making an R5 car too? In addition to actually pulling everything together to make this work, they ideally need to also enter some WRC rounds next year to get some foundations.

[N.O.T]

if the decide to hand the project to tommi then it will just become a half arsed job with no potential like mini.

[stefanvv]

What do You think StefanVV?

What do I think? Well in first place I think it'll be nice to have wrc team based in Finland, for a variety if You wish. I'm glad exactly Makkinen will be involved in this quest, he seem very balanced person as a driver, and probably will be very good team manager too.
For the testing roads I agree, base in Finland would be the closest to the best Rally roads in the world. I slightly remember some interview in the past with a Finnish driver answering why the Finns are the best drivers in the world, and he said just because we have all variety of Rally roads and weather conditions in Finland..... but that was probably at least 15 years ago and probably Makkinen was the driver.

I know nothing about Nokia electronics and Automotive industry, but they make excellent phones.

I think a German-Finnish base would be great choice using the already established facilities and Services in Germany and do the development & testing in Finland.

All-in-all I'm glad for Toyota making that decision, for me it seem TMG are little "burned out". Their last effort with WEC is turning into disaster very quickly this year, but for sure I don't know the reasons, it may have to do something with exactly this "reconstruction"?!?

[AndyRAC]

The way some people on here are talking, you'd think the WEC effort had been an unmitigated disaster. They did actually win it last year (or did I imagine it).
However, something has happened, not just to the WEC programme, but other projects, which seem to have been pulled/ delayed.

As for drivers, they'll surprise everyone and pick a Finn and a French, plus a Japanese youngster....

[stefanvv]

The way some people on here are talking, you'd think the WEC effort had been an unmitigated disaster.

Just for the record for WEC I was referring this year so far, I watch WEC races and I'm well aware what TMG achieved there. Sure I don't know what Mr. Toyoda plans are for the future about TMG so only guessing....

[Simmi]

I think TMG have worked wonders so far in the WEC. They brought the programme forward early and the car was quickly winning races. They absolutely dominated last season with a much inferior budget and really should have won Le Mans.

Toyota have not given them anywhere near the funding that their VAG rivals have on tap and that has bitten them badly this year. I don't think they forgot how to build a good car. They just got out-developed. The weakest part of it is the Toyota engine which they didn't even build.

So I don't subscribe to the fact that they aren't a competent team. The biggest issue for them, and I fear this WRC project, stems from Japanese boardrooms.

[stefanvv]

Toyota have not given them anywhere near the funding that their VAG rivals have on tap and that has bitten them badly this year.

AUDI don't have the same funding as before since Porsche came in, but that's little OT. In general yes, TMG has done much better in WEC than F1 effort....

[RS]

For the testing roads I agree, base in Finland would be the closest to the best Rally roads in the world. I slightly remember some interview in the past with a Finnish driver answering why the Finns are the best drivers in the world, and he said just because we have all variety of Rally roads and weather conditions in Finland..... but that was probably at least 15 years ago and probably Makkinen was the driver.


Is that even true though? Is Finland not mostly fast, smooth gravel roads? (this is a genuine question but it is all i have seen)

I rather thought this is why the Finnish have struggled in recent years if they do not get out of Finland quick enough.

[stefanvv]

Is that even true though? Is Finland not mostly fast, smooth gravel roads? (this is a genuine question but it is all i have seen)

I rather thought this is why the Finnish have struggled in recent years if they do not get out of Finland quick enough.

Yes, I agree the roads are quite similar in nature, but I was meaning they're best for testing the cars suspension mostly, travel, strength, behaviour; chassis rolling, etc, etc. For the drivetrain & engine torque probably best would be some tarmac tests, in Finland sure have these as well, not much used for Rally though. May be German tarmac could used more proper for that....

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKm0eU6WIAAau5G.jpg

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

if the decide to hand the project to tommi then it will just become a half arsed job with no potential like mini.

Let's hope Toyota has a long term WRC program, unlike a certain German manufacturer

[Simmi]

Initial three-year programme with a strong budget is what Colin Clark said today.

[N.O.T]

Initial three-year programme with a strong budget is what Colin Clark said today.

most of which will be spent on english lessons for tommi to be able to communicate properly...

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

most of which will be spent on english lessons for tommi to be able to communicate properly...
Not only for Tommi, but also the Japanese drivers, executives, etc.
Probably we'll see GT86 instead of Yaris (thanks to executive meddling)

[dimviii]

Τeemu/Rallirinki.net
‏@HartusvuoriWRC
Toyota and Tommi Mäkinen are expected to anniunce the location of their HQ in July. It could be in Finland. http://yle.fi/uutiset/kisa_toyotan_ralliautotehtaan_sijainnista_kay_kuum ana/8187827 … #WRC

[makinen_fan]

A detailed interview with Makinen about the plans. Apparently the team will be based in Jyvaskyla and both an R5 and WRC will be developed at the same time. Michael Zotos will be the chief designer and technical director.

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/wm/nachrichten/artikel/d/2015/07/29/maekinen-ab-maerz-beginnen-die-tests/

[Allyc85]

Probably we'll see GT86 instead of Yaris (thanks to executive meddling)

I hope so!!

[EightGear]

I hope so!!
First 3 years will be a Yaris according to the interview makinen_fan posted.

[lewalcindor]

First 3 years will be a Yaris according to the interview makinen_fan posted.

The GT86 might be gone from the market after 3 years if Toyota and Subaru can't figure out other cars to build on its RWD platform. The cars were hot sellers at first, but their sales have cooled since then. Pretty much everyone who's wanted one has already bought one. For other consumers, The cars aren't that cheap (though still somewhat inexpensive), and they're not especially practical or comfortable. In essence, it's a car that appeals only to a limited market.

If Toyota and Subaru can figure out how to create a hatchback, convertible, wagon/estate, or even a small sedan based on the GT86 platform, then it might still have a chance.

[bluuford]

Finland is logical choiche. Toyota headquarter is in Nagoya, 11 km from the hotel I am living at the moment. Shortest flight from Nagoya to Europe is to Finland, 9 hours and you are in Helsinki. If Japanese want strong control, then it is the most logical option - direct flight every day with very good flight times. Toyota is so important for locals here that they just cannot give all the WRC team responsibility to Europeans. There will be strong Japanese involvement I belive (compared to Hyundai for example).

[AndyRAC]

So, they're going to build new premises in Jyvaskala? When they have a perfect place already in Cologne? Hmmm... Not very logical...

Well, it's their money...

[Barreis]

Hardly will be a success when doing outside factory but time will tell...

[bluuford]

Come here and you can understand how they work. I have been here for 7-8 days now and I can see it easily (well, one of my scientific group leaders is Japanese and I have been working with him for 5 years already).
1. When they plan big investment then they want to control it 100%.
2. They trust Tommi and it is one of the most important thing for them. Winning their respect is not easy job and it is among the most important things here
3. Cologne is too far from here and no proper connection with their headquarter. If they take business class ticket to Finland then they can have proper good-night sleep and they are on their base in 10 hours. It is additional 4 hours to Germany (all my German and even Italian colleagues here came by Finnair via Helsinki) + drive to Cologne, that means they loose a day=big money etc. It just does not fit into their plans.
4. They did not had good memories with Cologne base = better to use it as some kind of sub-base.

[dimviii]

A detailed interview with Makinen about the plans. Apparently the team will be based in Jyvaskyla and both an R5 and WRC will be developed at the same time. Michael Zotos will be the chief designer and technical director.

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/wm/nachrichten/artikel/d/2015/07/29/maekinen-ab-maerz-beginnen-die-tests/

Michael Zotos (Greek)was chief engineer of Makkinens car at prodrive days.
I had the pleasure to talk to him some times,and he helped us with some setups problems before some years.
Very helpful guy,hope the best for him,even i have my doubts about the way Toyota want to engage at wrc.

[OldF]

Michael Zotos (Greek)was chief engineer of Makkinens car at prodrive days.
I had the pleasure to talk to him some times,and he helped us with some setups problems before some years.
Very helpful guy,hope the best for him,even i have my doubts about the way Toyota want to engage at wrc.

You have then connections to the team :). What was he doing before this appointment, working at Prodrive?

[AL14]

Come here and you can understand how they work. I have been here for 7-8 days now and I can see it easily (well, one of my scientific group leaders is Japanese and I have been working with him for 5 years already).
1. When they plan big investment then they want to control it 100%.
2. They trust Tommi and it is one of the most important thing for them. Winning their respect is not easy job and it is among the most important things here
3. Cologne is too far from here and no proper connection with their headquarter. If they take business class ticket to Finland then they can have proper good-night sleep and they are on their base in 10 hours. It is additional 4 hours to Germany (all my German and even Italian colleagues here came by Finnair via Helsinki) + drive to Cologne, that means they loose a day=big money etc. It just does not fit into their plans.
4. They did not had good memories with Cologne base = better to use it as some kind of sub-base.

The questions are:
Apart from point 2, did previously Cologne was closer to Japan? Did they plan big investments without controling them 100%? Did they had better memory of Cologne?
This kind of situations show confusion most of the time. I hope it is actually the right choice for a better development of the car (it can be of course). For sure they've wasted money so far imho.

[OldF]

Bad memories = Toyota turbo cheat.:(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motorsport_GmbH

“In 1995 TTE was banned for 12 months[1] from the World Rally Championship (WRC) for cheating by designing an illegal air restrictor[2] on the ST205 that included both a bypass mechanism and spring-loaded devices to conceal it from scrutineers.”

[1] http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

http://www.inpmedia.com/2014/06/03/toyotas-selective-amnesia/

[dimviii]

You have then connections to the team :). What was he doing before this appointment, working at Prodrive?

i ve lost the touch with him for many years.
he has worked for RML-Msport-ralliart-prodrive(subaru & mini)
Last years was responsible for clients programm at prodrive with mini(Araujo)
he has worked also for some teams at circuits.

[jarauto2]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLKtprpWEAAXi3y.jpg:large

[Simmi]

So pulling together a few of the rumours -

Car: Yaris
Base: Jyvaskyla
Testers: Makinen/Hirvonen/Hanninen
Design/development: Michael Zotos
Team role: George Donaldson (rumoured)
Driver 1: ???
Driver 2: Lappi (rumoured)
Driver 3: Japanese dev driver TBC

[dimviii]

Colin Clark ‏@voiceofrally
Mäkinen confirms he would be interested in bringing @EsapekkaLappi to the Toyota team. Hopes to have the car testing in Q1 2016

[Mirek]

Yves Matton said for Belgian Auto News last week that he is keeping his eye on Lappi too. I'm sure Jost Capito isn't indifferent either.

[Simmi]

If I was Lappi (or his management) I'd be pushing for a season in Volkswagen Motorsport II next year. Maybe with a WRC outing this year as a toe in the water - WRC2 title situation dependent.

The only thing I could see against that is EVEN might not want to place Mikkelsen and Lappi in the same team - effectively pitting them against each other?

[gorganl2000]

Yves Matton said for Belgian Auto News last week that he is keeping his eye on Lappi too. I'm sure Jost Capito isn't indifferent either.

interesting that the wrc teams have him in view of a potential drive at wrc level..i guess there is the possibility of changes within citroen and maybe hyundia and ford too
but how would he fit into VW wrc team, as they already have 3 drivers which they "seem" to want to retain? and it doesn't look like they are expanding the number of wrc cars they run from the current 3

[Mirek]

Matton literaly said that Citroën team will have different driver line-up next year.

About VW I don't know. There were signs that VW leadership wasn't happy with Latvala as he was viewed as too expensive for what he delivers but now it looks like he continues. I also thought that Škoda went to WRC2 to be a kind of VW "kindergarten" but maybe all my thought are wrong.

[dimviii]

from today at Finland
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLLNBKPWcAA1wKS.jpg

[skarderud]

Nice one!

Wonder what the story behind the desition to leave 2 yrs of development and move everything to a new place and team.

[JAM]

i ve lost the touch with him for many years.
he has worked for RML-Msport-ralliart-prodrive(subaru & mini)
Last years was responsible for clients programm at prodrive with mini(Araujo)
he has worked also for some teams at circuits.

Ahhh he was the engineer of Araújo at Motorsport Itália... not good times for both

[AndyRAC]

Nice one!

Wonder what the story behind the desition to leave 2 yrs of development and move everything to a new place and team.


I agree. I'd like to know the thinking behind the decision. Sadly, WRC journalists don't like asking questions, so I guess we may never find out.

[Simmi]

Tommi clearly sold Toyoda-san the dream over some long evenings in the sauna. Now he's got to actually produce.

It really seems like a maverick move for what is a major manufacturer programme. Because right now it just seems like Tommi is getting his mates together.

[N.O.T]

quick an easy money for everyone involved... 2 years maximum then the party will be over.

[AndyRAC]

Tommi clearly sold Toyoda-san the dream over some long evenings in the sauna. Now he's got to actually produce.

It really seems like a maverick move for what is a major manufacturer programme. Because right now it just seems like Tommi is getting his mates together.

Don't forget the Finnish vodka........

But you've said what I've thought. It seems like a 'jolly' for Tommi and his mates....

It should be interesting to see how the whole programme develops.

[danon]

http://content.icarcdn.com/editors/2015/july/2015-tommi-makinen-tests-toyota-86-rally-car-main-1.jpg

http://content.icarcdn.com/editors/2015/july/2015-tommi-makinen-tests-toyota-86-rally-car-main-2.jpg

[OldF]

i ve lost the touch with him for many years.
he has worked for RML-Msport-ralliart-prodrive(subaru & mini)
Last years was responsible for clients programm at prodrive with mini(Araujo)
he has worked also for some teams at circuits.

Tanks, let’s hope Michael has a successful reunion with Tommi. At least I hope so, don’t know about others.:)

[OldF]

Nice one!

Wonder what the story behind the desition to leave 2 yrs of development and move everything to a new place and team.

What’s behind it is I think that Toyota want a WRC dedicated team which members doesn’t have to be involved in any other motorsport projects.

It doesn’t mean that two years of development is rejected, just that another organisation continues the development. With the new regulations with wider cars I don’t know how much the geometry of the suspension will change and if the current geometry design can be used as a base of the new one or has it to be designed from zero. By Mäkinen the engine & aerodynamic development and testing will still continue at TMG.

About the location Mäkinen has said that they will start at Puuppola at his current base for about a year and he will decide during August where the location will be in the future. He has close by a new building which is at the moment a kindergarten and he’s said that he don’t won’t to throw the kids out from there although the city of Jyväskylä has said they could consider a new location for the kids if Tommi needs the building.

And in fact there’s no need for any big facilities and +100 staff in the beginning because it’s all about designing the new car and build the prototypes to the 2017 regulations. He once said that about a half hour away there’s good testing roads for gravel testing. I think tarmac testing have to done some elsewhere because there’s no suitable tarmac roads in Finland except maybe the roads on Ahvenanmaa that I know are very narrow and could be the only roads in Finland for a tarmac testing or a rally.

Btw, Puuppola is closer to the Jyväskylä airport than the city of Jyväskylä.

[rayh_mx]

http://content.icarcdn.com/editors/2015/july/2015-tommi-makinen-tests-toyota-86-rally-car-main-2.jpg

Is it Tommy Makinen in a Toyota with a Subraru Helmet? Or what'

[OldF]

Tommi clearly sold Toyoda-san the dream over some long evenings in the sauna. Now he's got to actually produce.

It really seems like a maverick move for what is a major manufacturer programme. Because right now it just seems like Tommi is getting his mates together.


Don't forget the Finnish vodka........

But you've said what I've thought. It seems like a 'jolly' for Tommi and his mates....

It should be interesting to see how the whole programme develops.

You guys seems to have something against Mäkinen or is it something against Finns in generally? Quite pathetic posts if there’s a change of a new manufacturer in the WRC, Pffft .

[N.O.T]

You guys seems to have something against Mäkinen or is it something against Finns in generally? Quite pathetic posts if there’s a change of a new manufacturer in the WRC, Pffft .

when was the last time a whole finish team based in finland produced something of value in motorsport ???

exactly...

it is going to be a big party though for 1-2 years... fun fun fun.

Thank god for the autistic japanese.

[OldF]

when was the last time a whole finish team based in finland produced something of value in motorsport ???

exactly...

it is going to be a big party though for 1-2 years... fun fun fun.

Thank god for the autistic japanese.

This will be the first time.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tommi Mäkinen meeting with Japanese guests of Toyota

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLUC1xxWEAA29YQ.jpg:large

[Simmi]

You guys seems to have something against Mäkinen or is it something against Finns in generally? Quite pathetic posts if there’s a change of a new manufacturer in the WRC, Pffft .

There wasn't a single bit of anti-Makinen sentiment in my post. I massively want this programme to succeed. You have to admit though this is far from the normal route for a manufacturer programme. This is the world's biggest car manufacturer and they are looking at moving into the local kindergarten. Okay, shiny facilities are not everything - look at how McLaren/Honda F'd up their latest car. But the amount of control Tommi has been handed here seems almost unprecedented.

I truly hope it works because the WRC needs a strong Toyota.

[Barreis]

VW is now bigger then toyota (latest results on sales)...

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

when was the last time a whole finish team based in finland produced something of value in motorsport ???

exactly...

it is going to be a big party though for 1-2 years... fun fun fun.

Thank god for the autistic japanese.

Try to tweet that to Gazoo's twitter (if exist).., that could be hilarious.

Fingers crossed for them.

[OldF]

There wasn't a single bit of anti-Makinen sentiment in my post. I massively want this programme to succeed. You have to admit though this is far from the normal route for a manufacturer programme. This is the world's biggest car manufacturer and they are looking at moving into the local kindergarten. Okay, shiny facilities are not everything - look at how McLaren/Honda F'd up their latest car. But the amount of control Tommi has been handed here seems almost unprecedented.

I truly hope it works because the WRC needs a strong Toyota.

But in a way you said this one could interpret that Tommi wouldn’t be the guy to do it.

Could you please then explain what you mean what you said.

“Tommi clearly sold Toyoda-san the dream over some long evenings in the sauna. Now he's got to actually produce.

It really seems like a maverick move for what is a major manufacturer programme. Because right now it just seems like Tommi is getting his mates together.”

Imo it isn’t normal “I wonder why Tommi Mäkinen got the deal”.

And yes, I was surprised about Tommi getting the deal. But giving employees (in this case Tommi) freedom to design their own tasks and giving them responsibility, increase the motivation to do a good job. The communications can also be more remote compared to earlier days. In earlier days communication was face to face, today communication can be screen to screen. But imo face to face is the best way of communication even today.

They are not looking to move into a local kindergarten. The building where the kindergarten is, is Tommi’s, the Jyväskylä city’s kindergarten are there as Tommi’s tenants. He didn’t need such big premises when the demand for N group car decreased, which they build about 30 in the best days.

As I said earlier they not need any big premises in the beginning because it’s most about the design of the car to the 2017 regulations and the assembling of few test units. Few guys designing the car with CAD and with simulation programs and sending the result of the designs to a fabricator of the parts.

I think that Mirek as a CAD designer could give a more professional approach what is possible with the current CAD design programs. I.e. design of a part, the program creates a list of needed materials and a parts list, sending the file to the fabricator’s CNC lathe of the part and start the fabrication of the part. Is it possible, I don’t know?

[Sulland]

In my book it makes sense to locate to Finland.
best drivers
best test roads
best driver development, and best driver management, that goes both for racing and rally.

the only challenge as I see it is language. But you don't have to be a native speaker in english to make yourself understood!

I also would like Toyota to once again win in rally. Lets see how the R5 turns out, and what they learn from that!

Go Gazoo !!

[N.O.T]

In my book it makes sense to locate to Finland.
best drivers
best test roads
best driver development, and best driver management, that goes both for racing and rally.


out of all this propaganda maybe the managers are the best and again only when it comes to stupid japanese teams and their autistic choices... proper teams only use the finish kids for support roles nowadays and they use real men for the hard tasks.

[Barreis]

Tell them, N.O.T... :D

[Lundefaret]

out of all this propaganda maybe the managers are the best and again only when it comes to stupid japanese teams and their autistic choices... proper teams only use the finish kids for support roles nowadays and they use real men for the hard tasks.

Your greek right?

[stefanvv]

Your greek right?

It might be frustrating Loeb didn't break Finnish rally victories record.....

[N.O.T]

Your greek right?

yes but not for much longer maybe 2 years maximum.

[N.O.T]

It might be frustrating Loeb didn't break Finnish rally victories record.....

The REALLY frustrating part is that i expected a giant like Toyota to enter the WRC as a full manufacturer entry and from the looks of things they are transforming into a closed circle party of super best friends with catastrophic failure written all over it...

[stefanvv]

The REALLY frustrating part is that i expected a giant like Toyota to enter the WRC as a full manufacturer entry and from the looks of things they are transforming into a closed circle party of super best friends with catastrophic failure written all over it...

It is frustrating for all rally fans less and less manufacturers to be interested in factory wrc rally teams. But that is how the reality is. May be Toyota would be more interested in hybrid technologies in rally for a factory development.

[danon]

The REALLY frustrating part is that i expected a giant like Toyota to enter the WRC as a full manufacturer entry and from the looks of things they are transforming into a closed circle party of super best friends with catastrophic failure written all over it...

Toyota cares not about your expectations.

Money talks...

[Simmi]

Could you please then explain what you mean what you said.

“Tommi clearly sold Toyoda-san the dream over some long evenings in the sauna. Now he's got to actually produce.

It really seems like a maverick move for what is a major manufacturer programme. Because right now it just seems like Tommi is getting his mates together.”

Imo it isn’t normal “I wonder why Tommi Mäkinen got the deal”.

First point - I meant exactly what I said, as written. I'm pretty sure that's probably what happened. Toyoda came over to Finland last year and I read in Autosport that Tommi lobbied him to get this programme. So he surely had to convince Toyoda-san that his way was a better way than TMG - who assumed they would be getting the programme.

Second point - Again I think this is pretty clear. Tommi is bringing in people he's worked with (Zotos/Donaldson) and drivers he is friends with. I'm not saying that's not logical, and there's probably loads of recruitment going on behind the scenes. But the way everything has seemingly been put on Tommi makes it feel like TMR WRC Team rather than Toyota Gazoo WRC Team.

Please don't think what I am saying is anti-Finnish or something. That's your interpretation.

[dimviii]

It might be frustrating Loeb didn't break Finnish rally victories record.....

you suffer so much?

[Lousada]

Toyota's 3 step plan for motorsport succes:

1. Spent gazillions to build a race team from the ground on up
2. ??
3. World Champion.

Maybe this time they will figure out what step 2 is...

[AL14]

I have still a question to people who says that "Finland is logical choice" because of best drivers, best distance to Japan, best roads etc...

Why Toyoda realized it 2 years late?

[N.O.T]

I have still a question to people who says that "Finland is logical choice" because of best drivers, best distance to Japan, best roads etc...

Why Toyoda realized it 2 years late?

I wonder why no team used that " best drivers, best roads, best managers" logic until now...

[RAS007]

you suffer so much?

Loeb's gone. I think you are suffering, while all around you are rejoicing.

[SubaruNorway]

Sooo where's the secret test today in Jyvaskyla...? ;)

[Rallyper]

First point - I meant exactly what I said, as written. I'm pretty sure that's probably what happened. Toyoda came over to Finland last year and I read in Autosport that Tommi lobbied him to get this programme. So he surely had to convince Toyoda-san that his way was a better way than TMG - who assumed they would be getting the programme.

Second point - Again I think this is pretty clear. Tommi is bringing in people he's worked with (Zotos/Donaldson) and drivers he is friends with. I'm not saying that's not logical, and there's probably loads of recruitment going on behind the scenes. But the way everything has seemingly been put on Tommi makes it feel like TMR WRC Team rather than Toyota Gazoo WRC Team.

Please don't think what I am saying is anti-Finnish or something. That's your interpretation.

But what you are saying no one else did things like Tommi do when building up a new team? I think everyone has to use their connections to be successful. And like OldF says, the only odd is that it´s not situated in England, France or Germany.

[Rallyper]

I have still a question to people who says that "Finland is logical choice" because of best drivers, best distance to Japan, best roads etc...

Why Toyoda realized it 2 years late?

Because Cologne didn´t do the thing right. No winner from that place the way they have managed it so far.

[MartijnS]

Sooo where's the secret test today in Jyvaskyla...? ;)

Just north of Jamsa it seems like. Colin Clark just streamed a short video with Periscope and that shows his location.

[Simmi]

Just north of Jamsa it seems like. Colin Clark just streamed a short video with Periscope and that shows his location.

Does anyone know it's actually Toyota? What would they be testing? Hyundai are doing VIP runs today but I don't know why they'd be branding that a 'secret'.

[MartijnS]

Its Hyundai VIP runs indeed.

[AL14]

Because Cologne didn´t do the thing right. No winner from that place the way they have managed it so far.

Still, it's something he could know before.

[macebig]

I cant understand the logic behind Makkinen bashing here.Some people seem to prefer the sterile "works" approach as seen with VW and Citroen.But the independant team supported by a manufucturer has worked similarly if not better in results.Examples are countless(Richards/Prodrive/Subaru,Cowan/Ralliart/Mitsubishi,Wilson/M-Sport/Ford).Hell,even the old TTE was quite similar in approach with these teams as one man(Ove Andersson) set up and run the team with support from Japan.So,all in all, there is no indication that a Makkinen/TMR/Toyota way is doomed to fail as most people here suggest.

[Rallyper]

I cant understand the logic behind Makkinen bashing here.Some people seem to prefer the sterile "works" approach as seen with VW and Citroen.But the independant team supported by a manufucturer has worked similarly if not better in results.Examples are countless(Richards/Prodrive/Subaru,Cowan/Ralliart/Mitsubishi,Wilson/M-Sport/Ford).Hell,even the old TTE was quite similar in approach with these teams as one man(Ove Andersson) set up and run the team with support from Japan.So,all in all, there is no indication that a Makkinen/TMR/Toyota way is doomed to fail as most people here suggest.

+10

[Barreis]

We'll see what tractor driver can do with toyota...

[AL14]

I cant understand the logic behind Makkinen bashing here.Some people seem to prefer the sterile "works" approach as seen with VW and Citroen.But the independant team supported by a manufucturer has worked similarly if not better in results.Examples are countless(Richards/Prodrive/Subaru,Cowan/Ralliart/Mitsubishi,Wilson/M-Sport/Ford).Hell,even the old TTE was quite similar in approach with these teams as one man(Ove Andersson) set up and run the team with support from Japan.So,all in all, there is no indication that a Makkinen/TMR/Toyota way is doomed to fail as most people here suggest.

For me Makkinen/Finland is not the problem. My doubts are about Toyota's way of planning an entrance in an international competition among the best drivers and teams. To succeed in such a strong competition you should have your ideas clear from the very beginning.

To make me understand better, if Makkinen idea was there from the beginning and then they decided, 2 years later, to go with TMG I would have the same doubts about TMG choice.

One more thing: I'm not sure it will be a stupid move, we don't know all the people involved, all the situation and all the test data. We can just make assumption. And I'm just doubting this is a sort of gambling move, because from outside it seems like that.

[Sulland]

I wonder why no team used that " best drivers, best roads, best managers" logic until now...

Mostly because this used to be a UK monopoly, both in rally and racing.
it became a big discussion when teams moved og the island, and to Germany. France also have a few people that knows motorsport. The challenge for both are still the same, language. Then international language, also in motorsport is english, and both those countries started late to offer that as the preferred foreign language in primary school. Both are still dubbing on TV.
Finland as said has the same challenge. Have driven through the north part of Finland, not a soul understood a word of english. This was in the early 90s, so it might have changed.
Have worked with many germans, french, and finns in NATO, and they are well spoken in english, but many have learned it in their adult years.

Maybe Spain is a good choice, being the fastest growing language worldwide!

[giu canbera]

Shouldnt Toyota start testing right new the Yaris with the 2017 new specs?

[Mirek]

2017 rules haven't been agreed by WMSC yet. Of course something is known (and for sure the teams know more than us) but still they are not finished.

[Rally Power]

I cant understand the logic behind Makkinen bashing here.Some people seem to prefer the sterile "works" approach as seen with VW and Citroen.But the independant team supported by a manufucturer has worked similarly if not better in results.Examples are countless(Richards/Prodrive/Subaru,Cowan/Ralliart/Mitsubishi,Wilson/M-Sport/Ford).Hell,even the old TTE was quite similar in approach with these teams as one man(Ove Andersson) set up and run the team with support from Japan.So,all in all, there is no indication that a Makkinen/TMR/Toyota way is doomed to fail as most people here suggest.

Totally agree*. This Makinen chance to grow his private structure into a factory supported WRC entrant, like the mentioned examples, should be seen as a positive input to rally sport. TMR will have the resources to get involved in other categories besides WRC. Makinen has already spoke on his interest to develop R5 cars and in the long term R2/R3 will probably follow.

In the case of Toyota lets face it: how many of the guys involved in TTE's glorious WRC past remains today in TMG? Very little, for sure. TMG staff it's linked with the post TTE's efforts, essentially the F1 fiasco and the LeMans still (ever?) to accomplish success.

Those who think Toyoda is a foolish fellow are totally wrong. He's a bright CEO that, God (or whatever) bless him, is also a petrolhead. Gazoo is a powerful marketing company developed by him and from the beginning motorsport made part of it. Putting Gazoo in control of all Toyota's autosport programmes (from local racing to Nascar, Le Mans and now WRC) it's a clear sign of how seriously Mr. Toyoda consider motorsport helpful to his giant automotive group development.

As for the geographical issue, in nowadays globalized world basing a technologic facility in a remote location doesn't seems to be that strange, especially when there's a strong cultural environment. No doubt that Finland has a "rally culture" background like few others.

*apart from considering Citroën approach sterile; they've compete in a high level and always kept the sport accessible to privateers, providing a vast range of rally cars.

[Eli]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120236 will be based in Finland

[Hartusvuori]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120236 will be based in Finland

If placed in Finland, I can easily see the benefits of building the team in Halli, former military area. Area itself is big enough and no longer in use by military. As far as known it's been sold to a private owner now. Buildings in the area (hangars, houses, ...) might not be in top condition, so in that sense building new ones right for the purpose of the team makes sense. Biggest benefits comes from the area. They would have kilometres of narrow and wider gravel roads in use for testing. Some are even within fenced area. Some could be surfaced with tarmac. There's a working airfield. If they need big cargo, fine. If they need a bit of tarmac testing, why not. If they need to use bigger and faster gravel roads, they're available in the area. Almost all of Rally Finland pre-event testing takes place within 60 km radius from that base. Halli itself is a town small like a fly's shit, but it's one hour drive from Tampere-Pirkkala airport. Also one hour drive to Jyväskylä and less than one hour drive to downtown Tampere, which is the biggest inland city in Nordic countries.

I see some benefits for myself too. My parents-in-law live two kilometres from that former military base...

[N.O.T]

how rich do you think Makinen and his friends will be by the end of the project ??

[AL14]

If placed in Finland, I can easily see the benefits of building the team in Halli, former military area. Area itself is big enough and no longer in use by military. As far as known it's been sold to a private owner now. Buildings in the area (hangars, houses, ...) might not be in top condition, so in that sense building new ones right for the purpose of the team makes sense. Biggest benefits comes from the area. They would have kilometres of narrow and wider gravel roads in use for testing. Some are even within fenced area. Some could be surfaced with tarmac. There's a working airfield. If they need big cargo, fine. If they need a bit of tarmac testing, why not. If they need to use bigger and faster gravel roads, they're available in the area. Almost all of Rally Finland pre-event testing takes place within 60 km radius from that base. Halli itself is a town small like a fly's shit, but it's one hour drive from Tampere-Pirkkala airport. Also one hour drive to Jyväskylä and less than one hour drive to downtown Tampere, which is the biggest inland city in Nordic countries.

I see some benefits for myself too. My parents-in-law live two kilometres from that former military base...
Very nice. It would be a perfect solution.

[DonJippo]

how rich do you think Makinen and his friends will be by the end of the project ??

Hopefully very rich so they can buy seats for many many talentless finnish lapdogs to irritate you.

[N.O.T]

thats good news then... pity he will not enter from 2016 to add some entertainment value to the sport.

[makinen_fan]

Interview with wrc.com
http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/august/tommi-qa/page/2691--12-12-.html

Some points on the co-operation with TMG

[Barreis]

JML will drive for them in 2017...

[Miika]

Someone already got their paycheck from Toyota?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10206357448647159

[macebig]

Keep a name that will make sense in a lot of ways (at least for a partial program):Kimi Raikkonen...

[N.O.T]

Keep a name that will make sense in a lot of ways (at least for a partial program):Kimi Raikkonen...

Hamburger boy !!!

I missed him...

[N.O.T]

Someone already got their paycheck from Toyota?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10206357448647159

and spent it already.

[Sulland]

how rich do you think Makinen and his friends will be by the end of the project ??

Who cares!
If they win, it will all be deserved!

[raybak]

Another name associated with Toyota, Harry Bates, son of 4 times Australian Champion Neal Bates.

[MikeD]

I have, and still are, very critical about the way japanese companies operate (not only in motorsport). And as I have written before I think the Toyota WRC project will be a massive failure (not because of Mäkkinen) because they will do the same stupid decisions like Honda in F1 has annouced.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120287

If anybody was ever in doubt on why Japan is a shadow of its former glory, it's because of their pathetic nationalist way of doing things. They refuse to take input from something non-japanese. I doubt even Mäkkinen can change that...

[skarderud]

I remember subaru 04-06 was totally f***ed up because of some F1 engineers and a blind thrust on computers. They didn't listen to the drivers at all, maybe something similiar is the fear in any japanese-involved project?

[Lundefaret]

I remember subaru 04-06 was totally f***ed up because of some F1 engineers and a blind thrust on computers. They didn't listen to the drivers at all, maybe something similiar is the fear in any japanese-involved project?

There were a lot of reasons why Subaru struggled in WRC post 2003, but it was Prodrives making, not Japanese ways of working. The only Japanese influences on the poor results stem from small budgets (comparable to that of Citroën), and a boxer engine mounted way forward.

Prodrive has always been a great engineering company, and they punched way above their weight with all of their Subarus all the way to mid 2004. This with a car with a not perfect layout, and not the biggest budgets.
But new regulations limited Prodrives creativity when it came to battling the effects of Subarus quirky engine layout. That combined with a company with then big F1 ambitions, led to a lot of strange decisions.

With little rally experience the new engineers made cars that could not cross water streams like in Argentina, that lost their rear wing, and had very strange handling. The worst came last, and something wrong in the front geometry (to much anti dive?) made the Subaru S14 very difficult to handle on the limit, because it gave the driver almost no feedback.
I remember Petter being hugely frustrated by this.
But it was Prodrive, not the Japanese.

But Toyota has used a huge amount of money in both their first serious LeMans attack (with TTE) and the following F1-campaign, and have come up with measly results in comparison with the money spent. I think this is why TMG is left "out in the cold", and that they select hiring "outside" forces to run their rally campaign.

Tommi Mäkkinen off course has a big challenge ahead, but he has some incredible qualities that could be just what is needed to pip VW from the throne.

Regarding the car I am 100% confident that they will come up with a winner. Regarding the driver(s), well... Much more difficult. There is only one Ogier on the market, and he has married German.

Mäkkinen him self is a very good rally driver developer, but he needs the right subject with the right frame of mind. Lappi could be a guess, he seems to have the frame of mind, and he should be able to humble down in front of a four time world champion. Mäkkinen could also be the guy to bring back the mojo of Neuville (but if he is ready to take driving lessons, I am not so sure.)

Either way Toyotas comeback will bring excitement in to the sport, I only hope Citroën (DS) decides to stay, and drop the lame WTCC-racing with neither attracts PR or excitement.

[AL14]

Tommi Mäkkinen off course has a big challenge ahead, but he has some incredible qualities that could be just what is needed to pip VW from the throne.

Regarding the car I am 100% confident that they will come up with a winner. Regarding the driver(s), well... Much more difficult. There is only one Ogier on the market, and he has married German.

I wouldn't be that confident. They have 18 months and VW is beginning testing the car soon. They had the advantage to focus fully on testing new cars and due to plan changes in the middle of the project they are already behind.
We should have read articles like "Toyota is testing new 2017 car" before VW and other manufacturers but now what we are reading is that Makkinen is desperately building a team and still don't know where all the work will be done and so on.
Not a good start for a team that want to beat the best car with the best driver.
BTW, I still hope they will bring excitement as you say, they can make a miracle in these 18 months and we all need it.

Regarding Citroen. I hope they will go away and Abu Dhabi goes back to M-Sport. It's better to have 4 strong manufacturers than 5 if some of them are always trying to spend less money every year.

[Ounin]

I wouldn't be that confident. They have 18 months and VW is beginning testing the car soon. They had the advantage to focus fully on testing new cars and due to plan changes in the middle of the project they are already behind.
We should have read articles like "Toyota is testing new 2017 car" before VW and other manufacturers but now what we are reading is that Makkinen is desperately building a team and still don't know where all the work will be done and so on.
Not a good start for a team that want to beat the best car with the best driver.
BTW, I still hope they will bring excitement as you say, they can make a miracle in these 18 months and we all need it.

Regarding Citroen. I hope they will go away and Abu Dhabi goes back to M-Sport. It's better to have 4 strong manufacturers than 5 if some of them are always trying to spend less money every year.

I do agree but not with the Citroen part... Every WRC team that leaves is a waste of mileage opportunies for young talent, there has to be a stepping stone, better from poor WRC team to top class WRC team than from WRC2, you need to adapt driving style and pace notes to high WRC level. In that given situation a young driver can be rated by the big teams to be interesting or a failure/don't bother.

[Simmi]

I wouldn't be that confident. They have 18 months and VW is beginning testing the car soon. They had the advantage to focus fully on testing new cars and due to plan changes in the middle of the project they are already behind.
We should have read articles like "Toyota is testing new 2017 car" before VW and other manufacturers but now what we are reading is that Makkinen is desperately building a team and still don't know where all the work will be done and so on.
Not a good start for a team that want to beat the best car with the best driver.
BTW, I still hope they will bring excitement as you say, they can make a miracle in these 18 months and we all need it.

I think this is the big issue. Regardless of who actually runs the team and builds the cars, when you know in advance that you are entering the championship then it gives you at least an opportunity to try to steal an advantage on your rivals. Okay they didn't know the exact regulations but ideally everything would have been in place at this point - not a rushed project.

VW basically set the standard for how to enter the championship if you want to be successful. It looked like Toyota was following that trajectory until they decided to change direction. Okay if taking a step back allows them to go further in the future then I support it. I just hope they don't have to effectively take a year of development in 2017 when they are supposed to be competing.

[Mariusz]

I wouldn't be that confident. They have 18 months and VW is beginning testing the car soon. They had the advantage to focus fully on testing new cars and due to plan changes in the middle of the project they are already behind.
We should have read articles like "Toyota is testing new 2017 car" before VW and other manufacturers but now what we are reading is that Makkinen is desperately building a team and still don't know where all the work will be done and so on.
Not a good start for a team that want to beat the best car with the best driver.
BTW, I still hope they will bring excitement as you say, they can make a miracle in these 18 months and we all need it.

What do you want them to be testing now? TMG has been testing the 2015 spec this year, but the 2017 regulations are not final yet and we got to know the draft of them just a few weeks ago. VW won't be ready till second quarter of 2016 with the 2017 spec car and TMR wants to finalize the 2017 spec Yaris by October with testing starting in March and it's not like they are starting from scratch.

[AL14]

What do you want them to be testing now? TMG has been testing the 2015 spec this year, but the 2017 regulations are not final yet and we got to know the draft of them just a few weeks ago. VW won't be ready till second quarter of 2016 with the 2017 spec car and TMR wants to finalize the 2017 spec Yaris by October with testing starting in March and it's not like they are starting from scratch.

I want them to be ahead on timetables compared to other manufacturers considering they're working without having to think to championship. VW is going to test while Toyota has not a team yet. It's a fact. Remember that Toyota is not entering the sport like Hyundai, they're working on it for years.


I do agree but not with the Citroen part... Every WRC team that leaves is a waste of mileage opportunies for young talent, there has to be a stepping stone, better from poor WRC team to top class WRC team than from WRC2, you need to adapt driving style and pace notes to high WRC level. In that given situation a young driver can be rated by the big teams to be interesting or a failure/don't bother.

You have a point but still, 4 strong manufacturers with 3-4 cars each are a good number that leave space for talents to have opportunities. If they have to debut with a team where the only goal is survive year after year, trying to invest less money possible (and that means they will not invest money on talent as well!), I don't think it's a good start for their careers.

[dimviii]

Camilli
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhjwcnyUlp8

[Andre Oliveira]

They are testing 2017 specs? TMR team?

[Simmi]

Can't fathom why this TMG car is still testing?

[Rallyper]

Can't fathom why this TMG car is still testing?

If I understood it right TMR will use much of the developed work on their car. A joint-venture was announced in some areas such as engine etz.

[Zeakiwi]

Would TMG do an R5 car? customer support etc while TMR does the wrc car?

[pantealex]

Would TMG do an R5 car? customer support etc while TMR does the wrc car?

Mäkinen will do R2 and R5

btw. Eamonn Boland´s new Subaru (in WRC Germany) is last Subaru which is built by TMR, next car out of Tommi´s farm is Toyota!!!

[dimviii]

Despite the designation of Tommi Mäkinen as head of Toyota WRC project and its desire to build a new Yaris WRC in Finland, the TMG team seems to continue working on his side. In fact, it ends today a session of five days of testing on the ground in Andalusia. After his strong second place in the WRC2 Deustchland last weekend, Eric Camilli immediately took the path of southern Europe to pilot the prototype TMG Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Since yesterday it is Sebastian Lindholm has taken over.

While Tommi Mäkinen has not decided where he wants to locate its facilities to design and assemble the Toyota WRC that will be incurred in 2017, TMG appears to continue its work. The level of collaboration between the two entities do not appear to be yet fully defined. Tommi Mäkinen wants to design a new car within the Tommi Mäkinen Racing. For this, he recruited Michael Zotos as Technical Director. They had collaborated Subaru when Michael Zotos was operating engineer assigned to the car Tommi Mäkinen. Tommi Mäkinen has already contacted partners: Xtrac for transmission (as M-Sport Fiesta WRC for her or for the current Hyundai i20, but not the new one), the dampers for BOS (as Citroën). The engine and aero be entrusted to TMG. Cyrille Jourdan, the French engineer working on the TMG side project soulligne that these are the two main points of the new regulations in 2017 while Tommi Mäkinen argues precisely the fact to remake a self rather than using that of TMG because it is based on the current regulations! Wholesale at TMG, it was bad and Mäkinen wants to make his own way!

In addition to its responsibility, Tommi Mäkinen sees himself driving the Yaris WRC during the first tests. Mikko Hirvonen, a neighbor, should also incorporate the development agenda. Tommi Mäkinen was able to sell his project at the senior Toyota. His idea is to have a small agile team away from large structures such as TMG. He wants to quickly build two copies of a Yaris WRC following the 2017 regulations to a test in europe, the other on the other continents. But the Finnish announcement of ready facilities in June 2016. While the Toyoyta project seemed far ahead and on the right track, we have, right now, the impression that the team will hardly be in time to have a good self in Monte Carlo in 2017!

Opposite, we do not believe! Malcolm Wilson does not understand how Toyota can do without such resources in Germany. At Volkswagen, we have rolled a first proto behavior elements to the 2017 regulations!

Malcolm Wilson: "I am amazed, what Toyota in Cologne, that's all that needs a team in motorsport. It is an incredible structure with the best wind tunnel. I do not understand how they can say no to that. "

http://www.worldrallyisfree.com/2015/08/28/la-yaris-wrc-poursuit-sa-route/

[Andre Oliveira]

"Malcolm Wilson: "I am amazed, what Toyota in Cologne, that's all that needs a team in motorsport. It is an incredible structure with the best wind tunnel. I do not understand how they can say no to that. "

The key question

[danon]

TM having fun - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPzcq63zi98

http://s5.postimg.org/meuy2x7if/tmrs.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPzcq63zi98)

[dimviii]

http://www.worldrallyisfree.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/yarisTmgEs1508.jpg

[nafpaktos]

"Malcolm Wilson: "I am amazed, what Toyota in Cologne, that's all that needs a team in motorsport. It is an incredible structure with the best wind tunnel. I do not understand how they can say no to that. "

The key question
Toyota has a lot of money and they want somehow to spend some.Exactly with what they did with their f1-joke program

[Andre Oliveira]

Our wishes of VW beater can be reality?

[N.O.T]

Toyota has a lot of money and they want somehow to spend some.Exactly with what they did with their f1-joke program

I do not think they want to spend money, that is why they chose a nobody to run their team in WRC, if they wanted to spend money they would do it the Hyundai and VW way.

[nafpaktos]

Edit

[nafpaktos]

Our wishes of VW beater can be reality?

NO WAY,i think if they will challenge hyundai they must be happy.,what do you think?rallying has changed. Prodrive-subaru or ralliart-mitsubishi type cooperations are OVER.Why they dont see it????maybe they live to a parallel universe.

[Zeakiwi]

Toyota have invested alot in non fossil fuel/ low fossil fuel use vehicles.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/12/first-toyota-mirai-fuel-cell-vehicles-arrive-europe/

Toyota have the Overdrive/ Hallspeed model for cross country. Toyota HQ probably hope their rally operation can be a similar - relatively small operations of enthusiasts with self developed specialist competition vehicles creating a good profile for Toyota brand product - Hilux.(even though Mini wins most of the big events)

[AL14]

Our wishes of VW beater can be reality?

I think this is the wrong thread.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Please Tommi, stop trolling us and bring that thing to Codies and driving that at Wales..

[AndyRAC]

Toyota has a lot of money and they want somehow to spend some.Exactly with what they did with their f1-joke program

They do have money - but because of the F1 experience, they won't go down the same road of spending it unwisely. As we have seen from the WEC program; almost with one arm tied behind their back - but they did win the WEC last year. So the bean counters would argue that lots of spending isn't required. Sadly, this year they've fallen way behind.

[macebig]

Why people insist?Take that example:in 2011 and 2012 DS3 was considered leaps and bounds better than the Fiesta.But it has been proven after Loebs retirement that the differnce between the two cars was not so big as it seemed.WRC cars nowadays are nearly identical (same spec engine,same suspension and gearbox,similar electronics) so the real difference is made by the drivers and the set up mechanics.A top-class driver is able to win in all of WRC cars.So if Toyota manage to lure top-class drivers they are gonna be frontrunners for sure.

[macebig]

Why people insist?Take that example:in 2011 and 2012 DS3 was considered leaps and bounds better than the Fiesta.But it has been proven after Loebs retirement that the difference between the two cars was not so big as it seemed.WRC cars nowadays are nearly identical (same spec engine,same suspension and gearbox,similar electronics) so the real difference is made by the drivers and the set up mechanics.A top-class driver is able to win in all of WRC cars.So if Toyota manage to lure top-class drivers they are gonna be frontrunners for sure.

[macebig]

Sorry,doublepost.

[nafpaktos]

@Andyrac
Yes it is possible to be competitive for one year without spending a o lot of money,either because you have already spent huge amount of money the years before and the car is already in high level(like citroen the year 2013)or because your design team interpreted the regulations in the optimum way like(like Brawn did with his f1 team).So it is easy to understand that without money you cant go forward for long in motorsport in our days.Maybe tommi thinks that the ralliart days are possible to come again when a team with less budget was beating teams with bigger budgets.these things stopped the year 2001 ( evo 6.5).I try hard to understand how the people of that project think.

[Mariusz]

Why people insist?Take that example:in 2011 and 2012 DS3 was considered leaps and bounds better than the Fiesta.But it has been proven after Loebs retirement that the difference between the two cars was not so big as it seemed.WRC cars nowadays are nearly identical (same spec engine,same suspension and gearbox,similar electronics) so the real difference is made by the drivers and the set up mechanics.A top-class driver is able to win in all of WRC cars.So if Toyota manage to lure top-class drivers they are gonna be frontrunners for sure.
It's just that to be able to win with Ogier/VW combo they need to have a better car than Polo and only then a top-class driver will have a chance.

[Toyoda]

It's just that to be able to win with Ogier/VW combo they need to have a better car than Polo and only then a top-class driver will have a chance.

Yeap agreed! Trouble is Ogier miles ahead of the rest in consistency and speed on all surfaces,

[pantealex]

bit of news from last weekends Turku Rally (Finland)
-Gazoo drivers:
--Arai has english notes (and male co-driver from GB)
--Takamoto is driving with japanise notes (and small female co-river from Japan)
--with them in start/finish area were Ja(r)mo Lehtinen and Jouni Ampuja (former Corolla/Focus WRC driver)

at the moment:
-They will built 5 Toyota WRC in Tommi´s farm
-2 test teams:
--1 in Finland
--1 in WRC locations (same as VW did before joining in)

[N.O.T]

it is going to be a nice amateur team, fun guaranteed for everyone.

[Grundo Farb]

bit of news from last weekends Turku Rally (Finland)
-Gazoo drivers:
--Arai has english notes (and male co-driver from GB)
--Tosimoto is driving with japanise notes (and small female co-river from Japan)
--with them in start/finish area were Ja(r)mo Lehtinen and Jouni Ampuja (former Corolla/Focus WRC driver)

at the moment:
-They will built 5 Toyota WRC in Tommi´s farm
-2 test teams:
--1 in Finland
--1 in WRC locations (same as VW did before joining in)

I don't know which theme music is more apt for this effort, the music from Benny Hill or Send in the Clowns.

[AL14]

I don't know which theme music is more apt for this effort, the music from Benny Hill or Send in the Clowns.

How about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTSA_sWGM44

[Grundo Farb]

How about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTSA_sWGM44

Love it.

[Rally Power]

"Malcolm Wilson: "I am amazed, what Toyota in Cologne, that's all that needs a team in motorsport. It is an incredible structure with the best wind tunnel. I do not understand how they can say no to that. "


I don't remember Mr. Wilson complaining when Ford decided to replace Boreham's Motorsport base for his garage in Cockermouth...

Ford contracts made MSport a top force in WRC. Why are so many people doubting the same cannot happen with Toyota and TMR?!?

There's also a huge advantage for the sport in these manufacturers and private teams joint ventures. Manus factory teams are usually limited time involvements, only focused in WRC. When marketing strategy diverge or financial crisis erupt they leave the sport instantly. Private teams has rally as their core business; they'll do everything in order to maintain their sport activities, so they tend to develop other rally categories programs, providing competitive cars to national and regional series, helping the sport growth worldwide.

[Grundo Farb]

I don't remember Mr. Wilson complaining when Ford decided to replace Boreham's Motorsport base for his garage in Cockermouth...

Ford contracts made MSport a top force in WRC. Why are so many people doubting the same cannot happen with Toyota and TMR?!?

There's also a huge advantage for the sport in these manufacturers and private teams joint ventures. Manus factory teams are usually limited time involvements, only focused in WRC. When marketing strategy diverge or financial crisis erupt they leave the sport instantly. Private teams has rally as their core business; they'll do everything in order to maintain their sport activities, so they tend to develop other rally categories programs, providing competitive cars to national and regional series, helping the sport growth worldwide.

Ok. If people won't do their own research or think then I will for you.

It will fail as it is all about the details. There is a massive difference between tinkering with a car in the garage - pretty much what many many car preparation companies do around the world and then competing in the WRC.

I did a quick google on subaru rally car preparers, I came up in 30 seconds with Autosportif, TEG sport, A&H motorsport, Vermont Sportscars, MSL Motorsport etc. All of them like Tommi, modify Subaru Imprezzas. What has he got with regards car preparation pedigree that sets him apart? Nothing, they are all the same. He hasn't won anything with his prepared cars has he?

So lets then look at what he thinks he will be doing. Building and then testing a car himself. He probably can, Alex Kelsey a 19 year old in New Zealand did that.
BUT:
Who will make decisions on the drivers? Who will look after the driver development program? Who will build the sponsorship packages and then entertain the sponsors? Who will spec and buy the equipment for the rally bases in each location and kit out the mechanics? Who will optimise the work the mechanics do? Who will design and get the clothes for the team? Who will organise the catering in the different countries? Who will work out the parts requirements and then ensure they are all available in the right place for each rally? Who will manage the accounts? Who will book the travel? The accommodation? What recce cars will they use?

Why do you think VW did all of this for 12 months with a Skoda and Ogier driving in WRC2??????? Because they had 12 months to kill before the car was ready????

But Tommi says "I will build a car and I will test it".

And please please please stop comparing Tommi and his garage to Malcolm Wilson:

Malcolm Wilson was driving and developing the Escort Cosworth before Ford gave him contracts for the WRC programme, he had an existing relationship and a familiarity with the company. His team won national titles in several countries with the car so he had A) a track record and B) experience of the required logistics to support teams in other countries. The WRC car was originally developed by Ford Motorsport and then handed over to the Belgian RAS Team in 1994. They then took it back in 1996 as it wasn't a success with the Belgians (alarm bells here guys). I know this as my Brother worked for Ford Motorsport in the late 80's early 90's.

Malcolm Wilson wasn't given the contract to run the team and car until the end of 1996 for the 1997 season (the car was still the Escort Cosworth - and had been developed by Ford) the first M-Sport develop car didn't arrive until 1999.

So, he had AT LEAST 3 years experience with the car and company before he entered the WRC with a car not developed by him but Ford Motorsport. He then had another 2 years to get used to the logistics and team management BEFORE a new car was developed.

Take the time to think about this guys.

Honestly people - this is not the small time. It is not a garage next to your house with a bunch of mates.

It is the WRC.

[stefanvv]

Who said TMR will win WRC in their first 2-3 years?!?

[N.O.T]

Who said TMR will win WRC in their first 2-3 years?!?

nobody, but i guess that should be the plan when you spend millions... at least for normal people with common understanding.

[Rallyper]

But isn´t it a joint venture between Cologne and Tommi? To me it looks pretty clear it will end up like that and all the logistics and problems Grundo Farb was pointing to have been solved. Sponsors? Nah, Toyota doesn´t need them. And companys in motorsport branches will come and ask to put a sticker on their cars anyway.

[Rally Power]

Ok. If people won't do their own research or think then I will for you.

It will fail as it is all about the details. There is a massive difference between tinkering with a car in the garage - pretty much what many many car preparation companies do around the world and then competing in the WRC.

I did a quick google on subaru rally car preparers, I came up in 30 seconds with Autosportif, TEG sport, A&H motorsport, Vermont Sportscars, MSL Motorsport etc. All of them like Tommi, modify Subaru Imprezzas. What has he got with regards car preparation pedigree that sets him apart? Nothing, they are all the same. He hasn't won anything with his prepared cars has he?

So lets then look at what he thinks he will be doing. Building and then testing a car himself. He probably can, Alex Kelsey a 19 year old in New Zealand did that.
BUT:
Who will make decisions on the drivers? Who will look after the driver development program? Who will build the sponsorship packages and then entertain the sponsors? Who will spec and buy the equipment for the rally bases in each location and kit out the mechanics? Who will optimise the work the mechanics do? Who will design and get the clothes for the team? Who will organise the catering in the different countries? Who will work out the parts requirements and then ensure they are all available in the right place for each rally? Who will manage the accounts? Who will book the travel? The accommodation? What recce cars will they use?

Why do you think VW did all of this for 12 months with a Skoda and Ogier driving in WRC2??????? Because they had 12 months to kill before the car was ready????

But Tommi says "I will build a car and I will test it".

And please please please stop comparing Tommi and his garage to Malcolm Wilson:

Malcolm Wilson was driving and developing the Escort Cosworth before Ford gave him contracts for the WRC programme, he had an existing relationship and a familiarity with the company. His team won national titles in several countries with the car so he had A) a track record and B) experience of the required logistics to support teams in other countries. The WRC car was originally developed by Ford Motorsport and then handed over to the Belgian RAS Team in 1994. They then took it back in 1996 as it wasn't a success with the Belgians (alarm bells here guys). I know this as my Brother worked for Ford Motorsport in the late 80's early 90's.

Malcolm Wilson wasn't given the contract to run the team and car until the end of 1996 for the 1997 season (the car was still the Escort Cosworth - and had been developed by Ford) the first M-Sport develop car didn't arrive until 1999.

So, he had AT LEAST 3 years experience with the car and company before he entered the WRC with a car not developed by him but Ford Motorsport. He then had another 2 years to get used to the logistics and team management BEFORE a new car was developed.

Take the time to think about this guys.

Honestly people - this is not the small time. It is not a garage next to your house with a bunch of mates.

It is the WRC.

You ended saying what I've said: before Ford contracts to run their cars in WRC, Malcolm Wilson Motorsport (Msport previous designation) was a team that built cars for costumers using Ford Motorsport designed, tested and developed parts. It was, just like Tommi Makinen Racing has been, a preparation company (with modest facilities near the boss's house, also like TMR...). For sure MWM did a pretty good job setting up Gr.A Escorts, but TMR task preparing Gr.N Imprezas was also a competent one, otherwise it wouldn't be possible for the company to end Prodrive Gr.N domination and sell cars all over the world. Of course, in WRC, S2000 and R5 days Gr.N cars achievements are less noticeable than Gr.A in their glory era, but if you continue the research effort you'll be able to learn TMR Imprezas records.

For sure Tommi will be busy getting his team sorted out and TMR/Toyota first season will be a learning one, but we can expect that TMR will take less than 10 years to give a world title to his manufacturer partner...

Btw, I'm a Msport enthusiast, not by their erratic WRC path but for the company costumers programs (from R1 to R5, S2000 and RRC/WRC), that are a huge contribution for rally sport development around the world.

[Sulland]

How far into the future can we expect Toyota to start selling R3s and R5s, maybe also R2s?
Their R1A is just a cup car, being the only one in the A cat I guess.

[Rally Power]

How far into the future can we expect Toyota to start selling R3s and R5s, maybe also R2s?
Their R1A is just a cup car, being the only one in the A cat I guess.

Impossible to say, but after setting down WRC car for sure TMR will try to sort R2/R5 cars. They're good business!

[Simmi]

I have to say this seeming commitment to making customer cars is a really good thing and another reason to support this Toyota programme. Obviously it's a balancing act as they don't want their primary product (the WRC car) to fall flat.

[JAM]

The difference between Tommi Makinen and the others is this:

All the others talked and acted as managers to create structures and teams, Tommi Makinen is acting and talking as a driver and a mechanic to create a structure and a team.

[stgpower]

Your statement makes complete sense to me... at least one here that have got the lucidity to realize that the move to TMR is very difficult to understand and justify...

[AMSS]

http://www.maxrally.com/2015/09/03/tmgs-2017-yaris-getting-close

[Simmi]

http://www.maxrally.com/2015/09/03/tmgs-2017-yaris-getting-close

WHAT!!??

So TMG are building their own interpretation of a 2017 Yaris WRC in addition to the works-blessed ones TMR are building?

[TheFlyingTuga]

LOLZ!!!

My guess is that Toyoda put both teams building a car, an in case TMR's be a flop, he always have a plan B to run!

[stefanvv]

This sounds a little like "internal competition"?!? It would be more interesting if the cars have different base, i.e. TMR to build GT86 for instance....

[Zeakiwi]

I read there is likely to be two test teams. TMG to test around the world and TMR to test only in Finland? A bit like Overdrive and Hallspeed?

[Simmi]

I read there is likely to be two test teams. TMG to test around the world and TMR to test only in Finland? A bit like Overdrive and Hallspeed?

Two test teams makes sense but not if you're testing different cars - if that is indeed the case.

I'd really love one of the rally journos to fully pull everything together and try to work out where TMR ends and where TMG begins. We know there will be some partnership - but I doubt it's a joyful close relationship with all those politics at play.

[Rally Power]

LOLZ!!!

My guess is that Toyoda put both teams building a car, an in case TMR's be a flop, he always have a plan B to run!

Probably it was the other way around: TMR was the plan B, activated by Mr.Toyoda after another TMG disaster at LeMans!

Facts:

- TMG run Toyota Racing F1 team during 8 years (2002 to 2009); in 140 races they didn't win a single grand prix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Racing

- TMG run Toyota Racing in LeMans 24h from 2012 to 2015 (4 consecutive years); they didn't get a single victory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans

- TMG is runing Toyota Racing in WEC from 2012 (26 races until now); they win 10 races and 1 constructor title (2014).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS030_Hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS040_Hybrid

- Toyota presented TMG Yaris WRC in January 2015, announcing their return to WRC from 2017.
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/5736875/

- Toyota/TMG cars finish the 2015 LeMans 24h (June 14) in 6th and 8th positions.
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/8257910/

- Toyota announces Tommi Makinen as their WRC program manager in July 7.
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/8622687

Notes:

- In the 12 TMG running seasons, only WEC results are positive, but they are virtually useless because Toyota main objective in endurance racing is to win LeMans.

- Tommi Makinen choice was reveled 3 weeks after LeMans fail by Mr. Toyoda (Toyota Motor Corp. and Toyota Racing President).

[Grundo Farb]

I agree with you Rally Power. TMG is plan A for the car.

I had another look at the TMR website yesterday, it is still advertising the same jobs it was a month ago. If I was Tommi I would say "yes please TMG build me a car", he can then test it, drive it play with it and develop his team. Give himself the necessary time it takes to build a solid structure in time for 2017 and not worry about the car development at the moment. But I have the feeling he has a fairly large ego...

The other thing that puzzles me, in a normal business world company's have budgets. These budgets are based on forecast costs and typically are based on a business plan or business case. For TMG which is a subsidiary of Toyota, they would need to submit their budget for funding to Toyota. Which then means someone in Japan is supporting the development and ongoing commitment to the TMG car - as they are paying for it.

The more I look at this the more it feels like Tommi is a sideshow..

[Rally Power]

The more I look at this the more it feels like Tommi is a sideshow..

Don't believe so! Makinen choice was a personal one from Toy's boss Mr. Toyoda (grandson of the company founder), so it's hard to believe that it'll be reversed. TMG's guys seems to be pushing as hard as they can because they may fell the choice unjustified and probably their WRC program funding is in place since the beginning of the year. TMG's site on the WRC project somehow reflects some uncertainty as they talk about expanding the Yaris development but they end by saying their role is to assist Toyota involvement in WRC (http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/motorsport/en/cars/yaris-wrc#tab1). For sure at any moment there will be a clarifying response from Japan, because these news may damage Toy's motorsport reputation.

[AndyRAC]

Two test teams makes sense but not if you're testing different cars - if that is indeed the case.

I'd really love one of the rally journos to fully pull everything together and try to work out where TMR ends and where TMG begins. We know there will be some partnership - but I doubt it's a joyful close relationship with all those politics at play.

Same here. Time for some of the rally journos to earn their corn - instead of rehashing PR pieces.

[pantealex]

I read there is likely to be two test teams. TMG to test around the world and TMR to test only in Finland? A bit like Overdrive and Hallspeed?

post #685
at the moment:
-They will built 5 Toyota WRC in Tommi´s farm
-2 test teams:
--1 in Finland
--1 in WRC locations (same as VW did before joining in)

[Rally Power]

Time for some of the rally journos to earn their corn - instead of rehashing PR pieces.

Rally is a small world and the few journos covering it probably won’t dig messy issues that could upset the sport stakeholders.

Either way, PR’s are useful to trace a time path of events and you don’t need to be a journo to understand that sometimes they are more than propaganda pieces.

When a major corp admits disappointment on own actions and congratulates their main rival associates they’re pretty much assuming they’ve hugely f…… up. In these cases usually some heads tend to roll.

[Sulland]

What are the odds of Latvala joining Toyota?
he is one of the quickest, and if he could form a car around his driving style, and get confidence from the manager, he might stabilize and blossom!

[Simmi]

What are the odds of Latvala joining Toyota?
he is one of the quickest, and if he could form a car around his driving style, and get confidence from the manager, he might stabilize and blossom!

He won't be world champion in a VW as long as Ogier is around - that's for sure. With the Finnish angle to the new team it could be a nice home for him. He needs to do something different and take a risk or two. Otherwise he'll just keep coming second.

VW have Mikkelsen who can move up, and Lappi who can sit in the third car so no worries for them.

[AL14]

What are the odds of Latvala joining Toyota?
he is one of the quickest, and if he could form a car around his driving style, and get confidence from the manager, he might stabilize and blossom!

It would be more than a gamble to leave the best car and become part of an uncertain project (uncertain in a performance point of view), but I agree that with Ogier there, it is almost impossible to win more than a couple of rallies per year, and maybe he needs a desperate move. Don't know if I would have the courage to do it though.

[Rallyper]

More interesting (even if I know it wont happen) Ogier joining Toyota who tempting him with a BIG bag of money...

[Andre Oliveira]

When TMG will recruit a real rally test driver? Sunninen? Camilli? With all respect but not the drivers with speed and WRC experience that a project like this need.

[AL14]

When TMG will recruit a real rally test driver? Sunninen? Camilli? With all respect but not the drivers with speed and WRC experience that a project like this need.
According to rumors Hirvonen will be at test in Italy today. If true I guess he will be driving and not just in the service.

[itix]

https://youtu.be/O8vGiLIdSas

I guess this video of a recent test has been discussed before but I am not yet up to date with the forums (been away for a while)... Can anyone explain to me what the light dot on front right bumper is?
Are they measuring yaw and roll or why is there a light on the road?

And why is the TMG car still running? Are they building and developing the car and Tommi maybe building the team structure and the people required to run an event?

And why still run a car that at least when I last heard about it was built to 2014 specs? Maybe they've done updates to it.

[Mirek]

I guess this video of a recent test has been discussed before but I am not yet up to date with the forums (been away for a while)... Can anyone explain to me what the light dot on front right bumper is?
Are they measuring yaw and roll or why is there a light on the road?

It's Correvit optical sensor used for measurement of absolute, longitudinal and transverse speed, distance and tyre slip angle from which many other values can be further counted.

Check here various versions with datasheets: https://www.kistler.com/cz/en/applications/automotive-research-test/vehicle-dynamics-durability/dynamics-testing/products/#correvit_s_motion_2_axis_optical_sensors_csmota

[janvanvurpa]

It's Correvit optical sensor used for measurement of absolute, longitudinal and transverse speed, distance and tyre slip angle from which many other values can be further counted.

Check here various versions with datasheets: https://www.kistler.com/cz/en/applications/automotive-research-test/vehicle-dynamics-durability/dynamics-testing/products/#correvit_s_motion_2_axis_optical_sensors_csmota


That sensor has been used in the past and I have read a long interview with
Christian Loriaux (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAAahUKEwiPr7PC0_nHAhUILIgKHTnvCwI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.juwra.com%2Floriaux_christian .html&usg=AFQjCNGP8SEAeOpIRzXTIPpYnD-fSsi6YA&sig2=zk34HOVh7_7q4v1nH9takw)In it he said that the data gathered when testing on asphalt was fantastic "because the drivers cannot tell us" much useful.
However he went on to say that it was essentially useless on gravel where to paraphrase "too much is going on and drivers can "correct" for so many quirks" or "drive around" problems..

That car do not look to be going particularly vigorously....driver? or car?

Who can say?

[Mirek]

The sensor is no wunder stuff. We used to have similar one even in our low-budget university test-lab (although radar one). It's quite a standard thing used in all car testing including stock ones.

[dimviii]

According to rumors Hirvonen will be at test in Italy today. If true I guess he will be driving and not just in the service.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CO9VmWgUcAAnm0D.jpg
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/12002254_10153501866085733_5047653062119457820_n.j pg?oh=e85dff1794e9a3bec8d7b3dd2000db78&oe=56A00206

[Mirek]

Has Hirvonen ever had some reasonable development influence in M-Sport or Citroën? I thought it was quite the opposite but maybe I am wrong.

[AL14]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CO9VmWgUcAAnm0D.jpg
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/12002254_10153501866085733_5047653062119457820_n.j pg?oh=e85dff1794e9a3bec8d7b3dd2000db78&oe=56A00206

Nice pictures. It seems he has driven the car as well, would like to know his sensations.

This is the clear case about how silly are rally journalists. I mean, not the one who have blog, magazines and do their job only for passion (often better than actual journos), where were the ones who ask you to pay to read their useless opinion? Don't they have Hirvonen's telephone number? email? Skype? Some friend in Toyota who say how are things going over there?

[dimviii]

Mikko testing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSEnDpSd144&feature=youtu.be

[EightGear]

Nice pictures. It seems he has driven the car as well, would like to know his sensations.

This is the clear case about how silly are rally journalists. I mean, not the one who have blog, magazines and do their job only for passion (often better than actual journos), where were the ones who ask you to pay to read their useless opinion? Don't they have Hirvonen's telephone number? email? Skype? Some friend in Toyota who say how are things going over there?
Yes, we're still waiting for someone to find out and report what the hell is going on at Toyota.

Could it be they're just running the car for engine development?

[Simmi]

The plot thickens. If Mikko is "Tommi's" guy - but he's testing for TMG - then clearly the two sides are working together a bit more than we've been led to believe. Will TMG be one test team and TMR the other? Why are they building separate cars at separate factories?

It's still very confusing...

[GigiGalliNo1]

TMG not working with Makinen.

[Grundo Farb]

Yes, we're still waiting for someone to find out and report what the hell is going on at Toyota.

Could it be they're just running the car for engine development?

Yes, I thought the same thing but does it really need to be done on every surface around the world? Probably not.

[AL14]

Yes, we're still waiting for someone to find out and report what the hell is going on at Toyota.

Could it be they're just running the car for engine development?

Italian guys who where there:
http://www.rally.it/test-yaris-wrc-secondo-giorno/

They're the ones who took pictures and share the videos.

Basically they said breaks and suspensions were tested yesterday (I think the engine was the focus the day before, but I'm just guessing).
Both Suninen and Hirvonen tested the car, the difference between the two was clearly visible in the stage. ;)

[Simmi]

TMG not working with Makinen.

Well TMG are doing the engine work and likely some aero work so they are at least working together in some capacity. Not exactly a fully fledged partnership - but then you have Mikko rocking up suddenly at a test. Clearly there is more than meets the eye.

[pantealex]

Mikko is free agent, has own firm, could work/drive for everyone (MINI allraid, testdriver for Tuulilasi magazine etc...)

ofcourse this Toyota test has something to do with Tommi´s project but officially he is free agent ;)

[dimviii]

Opens&Tightens ‏@OpensTightens
#WRC @tmgofficial's Test. Looks like a 2nd car has been built. @michelin_sport
Pic @Rally_it

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CO-SPYjWsAAJX7c.jpg

[Simmi]

One big plus for having TMG build the cars is that we would get the historic K-AM numberplates out of Cologne.

[Andre Oliveira]

K-AM 1411 and K-AM 1422

[Rallyper]

So how will they do when it comes to homologating the Yaris? Two different ones or one car cooperativly built according to papers?

[makinen_fan]

Day 3 of the test with Camili. He looks much faster than the other days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SLOwL0BWEc

[Andre Oliveira]

Different type of test

[Andre Oliveira]

K-AM 1422, so the other car :)

[Mirek]

Day 3 of the test with Camili. He looks much faster than the other days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SLOwL0BWEc

Maybe it's just me but I think the car is too soft and still somewhat underpowered.

[b3637853]

I still don't understand why they've decided to go with Yaris, it looks ridiculous as WRC machine.

[AL14]

I still don't understand why they've decided to go with Yaris, it looks ridiculous as WRC machine.

I'm curious to see it wider with new regulation, it will be like a square. :)

Is there any expert guy who knows what the implications are with a shorter car regarding driving? Will it be more stable than a bigger one? More easy drivable? And what about mechanics parts? Will it be harder to find space for them?
Or it will just not change anything compared to a bigger car?

[pantealex]

is it optical illusion or is wheelbase of yaris really shorter than polo/3/fiesta?

[makinen_fan]

Maybe it's just me but I think the car is too soft and still somewhat underpowered.

I also noticed some turn in problems and lots of understeer, similar to the early videos of i20, which they were never solved.

[b3637853]

is it optical illusion or is wheelbase of yaris really shorter than polo/3/fiesta?

Yaris - 2450 cm
http://www.freetexturesblueprints.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_yaris_477.jpg

Polo R - 2637 cm
https://photos-2.carwow.co.uk/blog/1600/vw-golf-mk7-side-dimensions.jpg

DS3 - 2464 cm
http://www.citroen.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/profil-citroen-ds3.jpg

Fiesta - 2489 cm
http://www.kendallcars.com/wp-content/uploads/Ford-Fiesta-141088112558-12.gif

So if they're not changing wheelbase for building WRC then Polo is the longest, the rest is basically the same.

[Mirek]

Polo R is 2470 mm. You have there value and picture of Golf ;)

And by the way Your values are in mm not cm. Those would be some trains :)

[omer yetis]

2637 is Golf, Polo is 2480mm

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/about-wrc/rally-cars/volkswagen-polo-r-wrc/page/794--672-672-.html

[b3637853]

Polo R is 2470 mm. You have there value and picture of Golf ;)

And by the way Your values are in mm not cm. Those would be some trains :)

Yeah of course it's Golf and values in mm;) my bad. I also found out that i20 is 2525 mm, but maybe it's the new 4-door version.
So there are just slight differneces, yet Yaris is shortest.

[Mirek]

Current i20 WRC is 2480 mm. Stock car probably a bit less as they can use up to additional 1% of the stock wheelbase for the WRC.