[WRC] News & rumours (part IV) 2016

[seb_sh]

The perfect team is to bring us the title in 2018. Not so in 2017, I believe more in the long run. In 2017 we want to win some tests and this can make Kris. Then we have to see what the best option for the future. The Volkswagen drivers have only contract for the 2017 season and still Thierry, Dani and Mads are available. These are all experienced pilots. Of course we can also look for someone new. There are still more names. In late 2017, the market may seem totally different.
http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/2016/05/20/citroen-busca-un-piloto-para-asaltar-el-titulo-del-wrc-en-2018/

This part is interesting for several reasons:
a. seems he doesn't have 100% confidence in Meeke (probably because he's fast but still crashes) so he's keeping his options open for 2018 - I think it's good, no reason to commit to Meeke yet - see how things go next year.
b. VW Drivers having contracts only for 2017 - this is new information for me, up to now I only read that they have multiple year contract that goes longer than 2016. End date of 2017 seems believable, but it will be hard to attract them.
c. He mentioned everyone including Thierry, Dani and Mads, Lappi, Lefebvre, Gilbert for 2017. I think the main target in reality is Sordo, if they can't take him then I'd say they should put a young driver in.

[noel157]

Wilson on 2017 car, new model Fiesta (I guess):

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/10427-m-sport-to-build-brand-new-ford-for-2017-wrc

Edit- Simmi beat me to it on M-Sport thread.

[er88]

Matton should be doing everything to show Meeke he has full confidence in him to lead the team. Maybe it's a bit of reverse psychology or something, but it sounds like he still isnt convinced on him from that article. No way Meeke was getting that 3yr deal if it wasn't for Tommi and Toyota ready to pay Kris the big bucks (even though I think Meeke is the only current driver who could challenge Ogier consistently next year. Still think Paddon is a year or two away from that, but he's got time on his side at least).

Sordo would be stupid to go back to Citroen, he seems settled at Hyundai. However Neuville working under his Belgian mate is something I could see happening....

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Rally Power]

I don’t believe Matton has doubts on Meeke. Probably he was talking about manu’s title, not driver’s title. It’s impossible to win it with only one strong driver. Besides, it’s always wise to show lower than higher expectations about their full return.

[OldF]

Talks about rotation of rallies again. It didn’t work in the past and I believe it wouldn’t work today either. Three years on – three years off. How would it feel with three years without Monte, Sweden, Finland, GB etc.? Monte was out of WRC for few years but then there were IRC instead.

http://digital.motorsportmonday.com//launch.aspx?eid=9f2143d9-827a-4e1e-807a-d09fc535f4f1 (http://digital.motorsportmonday.com/launch.aspx?eid=9f2143d9-827a-4e1e-807a-d09fc535f4f1)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Get rid of Australia and bring back NZ. That is it!!!

[GigiGalliNo1]

Joost too says that brining in a driver like Meeke or Loeb for a rally here and there and then winning it is ruining the WRC...... :rollseyes:

[EightGear]

Jost*

[Jack4688`]

They tried it twice - the mid 90s and about ten years after that. Did it work either time?

[Eli]

They tried it twice - the mid 90s and about ten years after that. Did it work either time?

maybe they wanna try it once a decade...

[BleAivano]

They tried it twice - the mid 90s and about ten years after that. Did it work either time?

Nope. Sweden/Norway had it every second year for a while but IIRC it was hard finding sponsors for a non annual event so that idea was
scrapped and the two rallies was merged into the rally we have today.

[AndyRAC]

maybe they wanna try it once a decade...

Or 3rd time lucky.........

Do they ever learn? Or have they ever heard the saying "Insanity is repeating the same thing again and again and expecting a different result"....

They seem to make things up as they go along - with very little thought involved.

[Jack4688`]

Rotation means you end up with the situation the WRC finds itself in regarding the antipodes: promise '3 years' for one event with a 'promise' to switch round after that. Then things change an one rally is left out in the cold after promises were broken.

[Simmi]

Rotation means you end up with the situation the WRC finds itself in regarding the antipodes: promise '3 years' for one event with a 'promise' to switch round after that. Then things change an one rally is left out in the cold after promises were broken.

Depends whether the promoters hold up their end of the deal. New Zealand had an agreement with one promoter which was null and void when the power changed hands. A proper rotation system would mean rallies got their years delegated way ahead of time.

If championships like ERC/APRC were in better health then MAYBE you could switch events in and out. But that would be the only chance. Once your three years are up and the funding is gone then it's very difficult to get it back.

[Martins Tolks]

Rotation is nice idea on paper, but taking in mind, how rapidly our world changes (also financially), I don't see how anyone would like to sign a rotated deal. Ok, every year event makes cycle, where you need to constantly work and be in contact with sponsors and local authorities. For every 2 years, this cycle breaks and if some kind of crysis happens, noone could be willing to resume work.

[sollitt]

New Zealand had an agreement with one promoter which ... I think you'll find that was never the case. In fact, if I recall correctly the promoter at the time issued a statement saying that they were never party to any discussion.
What NZ evidently had was a 'gentlemen's agreement' with Australia and a presumption that it carried some weight with the promoters. That is all. Problem is you'd have difficulty finding a gentleman in either country.

[RAS007]

I think you'll find that was never the case. In fact, if I recall correctly the promoter at the time issued a statement saying that they were never party to any discussion.
What NZ evidently had was a 'gentlemen's agreement' with Australia and a presumption that it carried some weight with the promoters. That is all. Problem is you'd have difficulty finding a gentleman in either country.

Them's fightin' words!

[GigiGalliNo1]

The agreement was with The pervious Promoter of the WRC whom left shortly after!

[sollitt]

The agreement was with The pervious Promoter of the WRC whom left shortly after!Are you sure?
Red Bull announced promoter in 2012 to take effect 2013.
This from RNZ media release September 2013. " ... the World Rally Championship promoters are focused on the short term, and are therefore not in a position to agree to the suggestion at this time ..."

[Jack4688`]

I think you'll find that was never the case. In fact, if I recall correctly the promoter at the time issued a statement saying that they were never party to any discussion.
What NZ evidently had was a 'gentlemen's agreement' with Australia and a presumption that it carried some weight with the promoters. That is all. Problem is you'd have difficulty finding a gentleman in either country.

After spending most of April there I'd suggest the Kiwis have been too laid back and easy going for their own good. When you've got properly fresh air, regular sunshine and warm but not humid weather, who gives a shite about any of the stuff we worry ourselves with this side of the world?

No promoter agreement? No problem, bro. Just jump off a cliff into a lake and you'll feel fine ay.

[Eli]

as for the events that would like to take part: http://www.rallye-magazin.de/wm/nachrichten/artikel/d/2016/05/24/rallye-wm-geht-auf-welttournee/

[SubaruNorway]

Nope. Sweden/Norway had it every second year for a while but IIRC it was hard finding sponsors for a non annual event so that idea was
scrapped and the two rallies was merged into the rally we have today.

Rally Norway lost too much money in 2009 due to spending to much money on big screens in the middle of the forest and other things, -30 meant there was a bit less spectators as well.

[Rally Power]

Talks about rotation of rallies again. It didn’t work in the past and I believe it wouldn’t work today either. Three years on – three years off. How would it feel with three years without Monte, Sweden, Finland, GB etc.? Monte was out of WRC for few years but then there were IRC instead.

http://digital.motorsportmonday.com//launch.aspx?eid=9f2143d9-827a-4e1e-807a-d09fc535f4f1 (http://digital.motorsportmonday.com/launch.aspx?eid=9f2143d9-827a-4e1e-807a-d09fc535f4f1)

Thanks OldF. Great piece from MM rally editor. I've tried to put it here as jpg file but didn't succeed. Can someone do it? (p.77)

[dimviii]

krismeeke.com ‏@krismeeke

Sad to learn of the passing of Jean-Pierre Mondron of @kronosracing. A true gentleman #RIP

[stefanvv]

Thanks OldF. Great piece from MM rally editor. I've tried to put it here as jpg file but didn't succeed. Can someone do it? (p.77)

there You go - http://s33.postimg.org/42tk3rhcv/Screenshot_from_2016_05_25_01_38_36.png

[danon]

p77

http://s5.postimg.org/icck6ty9z/p77.jpg

[stefanvv]

I actually like the headline - "Meeke destroys Ogier to take his second career win" - it's like written from a boy in the kindergarten have watched too much transformers.
What's next?

[Rally Power]

there You go - http://s33.postimg.org/42tk3rhcv/Screenshot_from_2016_05_25_01_38_36.png

Yep, it's that one. Thanks Stefan. Just hope Mr. Ciesla and Mr. Mahonen will take a look on that fine text from Jerry Williams.

[stefanvv]

Yep, it's that one. Thanks Stefan. Just hope Mr. Ciesla and Mr. Mahonen will take a look on that fine text from Jerry Williams.

I just uploaded the picture, but I don't understand this article. What is his point?

[Eli]

I just uploaded the picture, but I don't understand this article. What is his point?
IMHO no rotation for the WRC, add NZ instead of Australia?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Rally Power]

I just uploaded the picture, but I don't understand this article. What is his point?


The promoter and some FIA top officials said that rotation could be back to WRC calendar. Probably they got fish memory and can’t remember the mid 90's and mid 00's experiences that end badly (the last one leading to the growth of a rival international rally series - IRC). Williams editorial sump up perfectly the previous rotation mess and the risks of this kind of system.

This time the risks are even greater, as it seems they’re proposing a 3 years leave for the events affected by the rotation. Can WRC handle the absence of iconic and leading events for so long? Will the organizers of those events set quietly for 3 years or will they be tempted to enter a new series that probably is going to be a strong competition to WRC? Can some of the new events attend WRC standards or will they fail to meet the rally world expectations, as it happen before?

For sure it can be positive for the promoter’s short term profits, but this new proposal will almost certainly end damaging the sport if it comes real.

[stefanvv]

The promoter and some FIA top officials said that rotation could be back to WRC calendar. Probably they got fish memory and can’t remember the mid 90's and mid 00's experiences that end badly (the last one leading to the growth of a rival international rally series - IRC). Williams editorial sump up perfectly the previous rotation mess and the risks of this kind of system.

This time the risks are even greater, as it seems they’re proposing a 3 years leave for the events affected by the rotation. Can WRC handle the absence of iconic and leading events for so long? Will the organizers of those events set quietly for 3 years or will they be tempted to enter a new series that probably is going to be a strong competition to WRC? Can some of the new events attend WRC standards or will they fail to meet the rally world expectations, as it happen before?

For sure it can be positive for the promoter’s short term profits, but this new proposal will almost certainly end damaging the sport if it comes real.

I see. Probably it is bad idea, but for sure wrc needs NZ.

[Eli]

It's a bad idea it didn't work back 10 and 20 years ago? why should this time be any different??? If they do decide to do it I hope they manage at least to keep MC,Sweden,Argentina,Finland & Corsica (after all it did take them ages to bring it back) also GB but is seems that rally is going to rotate somehow with the Circuit. Besides if they go ahead, they might aswell bring back NZ (that goes without saying) & Greece!!!

[GigiGalliNo1]

Cyprus and Turkey. Hard rock gravel events please!

[aykutbilir]

Cyprus and Turkey. Hard rock gravel events please!

For hard rocknevents please check this years ERT Rally of Turkey Marmaris :)

Amazing rally for all :))


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[er88]

Would it ever be possible to run Australia and NZ back to back? Like a week apart? Or is that simply not feasible and too quick a turnaround? Maybe a stupid suggestion...

Just think NZ has to be on the calendar, it's a truly iconic event. I like Australia as well but do hope it would return to Perth in the future...

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[BleAivano]

Cyprus and Turkey. Hard rock gravel events please!

Here you go GGN1: http://www.swedenrock.com/festival/om-festivalen/vad-ar-sweden-rock-festival

[Mirek]

Good one! :D

[rallyfiend]

Would it ever be possible to run Australia and NZ back to back? Like a week apart? Or is that simply not feasible and too quick a turnaround? Maybe a stupid suggestion...

Just think NZ has to be on the calendar, it's a truly iconic event. I like Australia as well but do hope it would return to Perth in the future...

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

It would take around a week to get the shipping containers from Australia to NZ (or vice versa), so that necessarily mandates a 2 week gap in between end of one, and start of recce for another, so it makes for an expensive time for the teams etc. They'd have to send everyone home, then back out again a week later.

And possibly the cars for a rebuild if they have major damage, or have a spare car ready to fly out just in case something goes awry. It's an expensive game....

[AndyRAC]

It's a bad idea it didn't work back 10 and 20 years ago? why should this time be any different??? If they do decide to do it I hope they manage at least to keep MC,Sweden,Argentina,Finland & Corsica (after all it did take them ages to bring it back) also GB but is seems that rally is going to rotate somehow with the Circuit. Besides if they go ahead, they might aswell bring back NZ (that goes without saying) & Greece!!!


Utter madness! It didn't work twice before - so why will it work again? Rotation is not the answer.

If you'd have told me 20 years ago that the WRC wouldn't have Safari, NZ, Sanremo & the Acropolis I'd have thought you were mad. Not only that, the sport is far weaker for it. The WRC is not, and never can/ or will be F1...so stop trying to model it similar. There are plenty of countries with £$£$£$£ wanting to host F1, I doubt that is the case for WRC.

Pick the best events that showcase the sport in it's best light - and stop going to countries that aren't really interested in the WRC. I know it's meant to be a 'World' championship - but the most of the best events are in Europe. Argentina should stay, and NZ simply has to be in the WRC - Australia offers very little, unless it's in Perth.

[seb_sh]

Utter madness! It didn't work twice before - so why will it work again? Rotation is not the answer.

If you'd have told me 20 years ago that the WRC wouldn't have Safari, NZ, Sanremo & the Acropolis I'd have thought you were mad. Not only that, the sport is far weaker for it. The WRC is not, and never can/ or will be F1...so stop trying to model it similar. There are plenty of countries with £$£$£$£ wanting to host F1, I doubt that is the case for WRC.

Pick the best events that showcase the sport in it's best light - and stop going to countries that aren't really interested in the WRC. I know it's meant to be a 'World' championship - but the most of the best events are in Europe. Argentina should stay, and NZ simply has to be in the WRC - Australia offers very little, unless it's in Perth.

Indeed, I say build a good product and sell that on TV and Online instead of going for gimmicks or quick money!

Why can't they show the most important stages of a rally? The long and hard ones and explain why they're important. People may be ignorant of rally but they're not stupid and they will naturally appreciate the core values.

[dimviii]

Phil Hammond ‏@PAHammond

Q.
What feature has made the biggest impression/improvement to the WRC over the last 10 years?

43% Live radio broadcast
9% Official website
28% Twitter updates
21% Fan pics & videos


vote here if you like

https://twitter.com/PAHammond?lang=el

[N.O.T]

who is phil and why should we care about his pol ?

[dimviii]

who is phil and why should we care about his pol ?

i dont care about Phil,i just care to see what other spectators/fans think.

[N.O.T]

i dont care about Phil,i just care to see what other spectators/fans think.

you should not, they are the people who click on Blocks youtube videos and the people who glorify those retarded flower pictures of the pros. The majority are just plebs.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Possibly 3 car teams in 2017

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/10444-wrc-proposals-for-2017-discussed

[shaitan]

Here is my question:
Why FIA do not try(maybe they do) to bring current WRC car into the same categories with 2017's car in next few years like DTM did several years ago?

1、It's easy to reduce current cars' weight(maybe 50kg-100kg) to match 2017's cars speed
2、It's very 'cheap' for private drivers compare to 2017's cars
3、Can boost private drivers join the top categories with less cost
4、A proper solution for the drivers who without license to drive the 2017's cars
5、We already have R5 class there are no need to create a intermediate category between R5 and A8(correct me if I am wrong)
6、There plenty of old WRC cars available in the market to use

So, it seems all the aspects are good thing for WRC in the future and what do you think about this?

[Simmi]

Possibly 3 car teams in 2017

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/10444-wrc-proposals-for-2017-discussed

Makes sense to do this. Gets rid of stupid single car secondary manufacturer teams like Volkswagen Motorsport II. Also coupled with the 'top two score points' proposal there's no messing around with driver rotation, and all drivers are subject to the same point scoring pressures.

My only slight fear (as someone that's going to Monte Carlo) is that not all the teams will have 3 cars ready in time.

[Mirek]

Here is my question:
Why FIA do not try(maybe they do) to bring current WRC car into the same categories with 2017's car in next few years like DTM did several years ago?

1、It's easy to reduce current cars' weight(maybe 50kg-100kg) to match 2017's cars speed
2、It's very 'cheap' for private drivers compare to 2017's cars
3、Can boost private drivers join the top categories with less cost
4、A proper solution for the drivers who without license to drive the 2017's cars
5、We already have R5 class there are no need to create a intermediate category between R5 and A8(correct me if I am wrong)
6、There plenty of old WRC cars available in the market to use

So, it seems all the aspects are good thing for WRC in the future and what do you think about this?

AFAIK it's not so easy to further reduce the weight under current regulations. Also IMO 50 or even 100 kg won't make the cars as fast 2017 ones. They will stay somewhere between. On other hand I can see no issue with keeping them eligible.

[shaitan]

AFAIK it's not so easy to further reduce the weight under current regulations. Also IMO 50 or even 100 kg won't make the cars as fast 2017 ones. They will stay somewhere between. On other hand I can see no issue with keeping them eligible.
I cannot agree with this.
Years ago we see lighter F2 can match the speed with GroupA, so there are no reason current WRC cars cannot do it. Also as reference monza rally show they reduce one spare tyre to balance 2.0T and 1.6T WRC cars' performance. I am sure 100kg is enough weight to balance.

Like WTCC's TC1 car, in first years there are only few cars can compete, that's not good for fans.
FIA have a tremendous success use BOP in their GT3 race surely it can work in WRC.

[Mirek]

The 1.6T WRC regulations are basically same as S2000 regulations and I know for sure that with the S2000 cars no team ever managed to get under 1150 kg within the rules even though the initial weight limit was only 1100 kg (later increased first to 1150 and than to 1200 kg). In fact on gravel many were often over 1200 kg. In 2009 when the limit was 1150 kg I know that all the cars on Barum rally were around 1170 kg heavy. I also remember weighting from Rally Scotland 2012 and Peugeots had around 1220 kg (with gravel sumpguard). I admit that I don't know the recent WRC cars but since the rules are basically same I can't believe that the situation would be very different.

Regarding the F2 don't forget that those cars had 960 kg limit while the WRC cars had 1230 kg. That is nearly 300 kg difference which is huge. They also used traction control and some other features which were not allowed for WRC cars.

Now we are speaking about balancing a handicap of approximately 60-70 Hp, much better handling and cornering (active center differential against no center differential at all), more effective aero, wider track and therfore also bigger suspension travel (don't know how much better brakes the new cars will have but I presume they will). I can not see any simple way to adjust the old cars to be on similar pace as the new ones.

[shaitan]

Maybe I got the wrong point.

Basically my assumption are based on weight reducing which manufactures can easily done by themselves, that's the reason why I believe race cars' weight can be tuned according to the regulation rather than their ability.

[Lundefaret]

The 1.6T WRC regulations are basically same as S2000 regulations and I know for sure that with the S2000 cars no team ever managed to get under 1150 kg within the rules even though the initial weight limit was only 1100 kg (later increased first to 1150 and than to 1200 kg). In fact on gravel many were often over 1200 kg. In 2009 when the limit was 1150 kg I know that all the cars on Barum rally were around 1170 kg heavy. I also remember weighting from Rally Scotland 2012 and Peugeots had around 1220 kg (with gravel sumpguard). I admit that I don't know the recent WRC cars but since the rules are basically same I can't believe that the situation would be very different.

Regarding the F2 don't forget that those cars had 960 kg limit while the WRC cars had 1230 kg. That is nearly 300 kg difference which is huge. They also used traction control and some other features which were not allowed for WRC cars.

Now we are speaking about balancing a handicap of approximately 60-70 Hp, much better handling and cornering (active center differential against no center differential at all), more effective aero, wider track and therfore also bigger suspension travel (don't know how much better brakes the new cars will have but I presume they will). I can not see any simple way to adjust the old cars to be on similar pace as the new ones.

I will just say that all tough S2000 and WRC 1,6T is similar in regulations, they are not similar in engineering effort. So clever ways to reduce weight that you wouldn't afford in S2000 is done in WRC.

BTW: Hyundai is soon launching a new R5 car, if my info is correct, that car will require ballast to reach the minimum weight.

[Mirek]

I will just say that all tough S2000 and WRC 1,6T is similar in regulations, they are not similar in engineering effort. So clever ways to reduce weight that you wouldn't afford in S2000 is done in WRC.

The main point is that they use full-steel bodyshell and the older generation of cars which was made in time when main marketing strategy was high safety were relatively heavy. The weight limit 1200 kg is enough to get bellow with the design and to use some balast instead. That's what they did also with the S2000 cars. However it's a lot different to reach 1100 kg as the regulations don't allow to replace the heaviest stock parts with special racing ones like with the 2 liter cars, also many parts have minimum weight limit themselves (suspension parts for example). That issue is same for WRC and S2000. You can't win 50-100 kg just by "bigger effort", that can bring further weight reduction by let's say 5-10 kg but hardly more. The S2000 cars are not made by idiots after all (Polo WRC is largely based on Fabia S2000 design just like Fiesta WRC is based on Fiesta S2000 design).


BTW: Hyundai is soon launching a new R5 car, if my info is correct, that car will require ballast to reach the minimum weight.

That's normal. All R5 does. The weight limit 1230 kg is enough to be bellow. Also these cars made of the latest generation of stock cars have a lot lighter bodyshells as the marketing strategy and politics moved towards the low emissions and fuel efficiency.


Basically my assumption are based on weight reducing which manufactures can easily done by themselves, that's the reason why I believe race cars' weight can be tuned according to the regulation rather than their ability.

How exactly do You want to reduce the weight of current WRC cars by 100 kg when You can't/don't want to produce completely new bodyshell panels from different materials, new light-weight suspension etc. (also bear in mind that even such radical changes require change of regulations)?

[Andre Oliveira]

Possibly 3 car teams in 2017

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/10444-wrc-proposals-for-2017-discussed

Real hope that come true

[spyros]

memories...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0_X6-kTEdk

[Mariusz]

How exactly do You want to reduce the weight of current WRC cars by 100 kg when You can't/don't want to produce completely new bodyshell panels from different materials, new light-weight suspension etc. (also bear in mind that even such radical changes require change of regulations)?
Easy, get rid of co-drivers :D

[Mintexmemory]

Easy, get rid of co-drivers :D

Anyone who has seen Cato Mekerud and Ilka Minor side by side will understand Henning's decision in the replacement (it was that or go on a diet!!)

[RS]

Makes sense to do this. Gets rid of stupid single car secondary manufacturer teams like Volkswagen Motorsport II. Also coupled with the 'top two score points' proposal there's no messing around with driver rotation, and all drivers are subject to the same point scoring pressures.

My only slight fear (as someone that's going to Monte Carlo) is that not all the teams will have 3 cars ready in time.

Good move. It would then be sensible for VW to keep Latvala.

[Jack4688`]

Back on the subject of event rotation does anyone else remember a plan from around 2007 for, instead of event rotation as such, to split the WRC into winter and summer championships? I seem to remember reading about it around the time the WRC was due to go to Norway for the first time, but as it was most likely from Autosport it could well have been the weakest rumour that David Evans decided to turn into full page story.

[Barreis]

memories...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0_X6-kTEdk

Didn't know that Loriaux was chief engineer at subaru...

[macebig]

Didn't know that Loriaux was chief engineer at subaru...

Yeah,he worked there till 2001(Impreza P2000 and the 2001 Impreza were his works),and was poached by Wilson in 2002 with his first work for Ford being the Focus RS WRC 03.He has been with M-Sport since.

[danon]

... but as it was most likely from Autosport it could well have been the weakest rumour that David Evans decided to turn into full page story.

http://s5.postimg.org/g36tf1ivb/deb.jpg

[RAS007]

Lol

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Yeah,he worked there till 2001(Impreza P2000 and the 2001 Impreza were his works),and was poached by Wilson in 2002 with his first work for Ford being the Focus RS WRC 03.He has been with M-Sport since.
And he's more chubby after joining M-Sport.. :p

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[bowler]

And he's more chubby after joining M-Sport.. :p

Blame Mick the Chef :-)

[itix]

memories...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0_X6-kTEdk

sorry for the OT, 1997 was the first ever season I watched of the WRC and I didn't react to it then (9 yo) but I do now. Why did Mitsubishi field two cars (lancer and Carisma)? Did they homologate both cars for one team?

[Barreis]

sorry for the OT, 1997 was the first ever season I watched of the WRC and I didn't react to it then (9 yo) but I do now. Why did Mitsubishi field two cars (lancer and Carisma)? Did they homologate both cars for one team?

Only for marketing reason...

[pantealex]

sorry for the OT, 1997 was the first ever season I watched of the WRC and I didn't react to it then (9 yo) but I do now. Why did Mitsubishi field two cars (lancer and Carisma)? Did they homologate both cars for one team?

same car, different stickers. only 1 homologation number.

[itix]

Thanks!

[Barreis]

Hahahahahah :D :D :D He can start the season after first three rounds and the result will be the same...
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124571

[Eli]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124600/thirteen-new-rallies-chasing-calendar-slots 13!!! Rotation system, here we go again...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[GigiGalliNo1]

Yes!!

[Eli]

It didn't say they'll use the rotation system, I'm just guessing that if 13 new events want to come in and the FIA and WRC promoter wants them also they'll have to rotate...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[AL14]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124600/thirteen-new-rallies-chasing-calendar-slots 13!!! Rotation system, here we go again...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

I think this is a very good news. Promoter should take advantage of such increasing of interest towards WRC (and of having 5 manufacturers fighting each other) to increase the standards of its product and services, and improving also marketing and communications.

[seb_sh]

They mention 4 things:
- rallies with more money
- more global calendar
- adding a rough event
- they cannot go over 14 events (hopefully they remember what happened last time...)

The first two probably means dropping a couple struggling european rallies or putting them on rotation and adding rallies elsewhere. Maybe Sweden, Poland or France? GB? Add Canada as a winter rally that can safely deliver snow? Turkey, Jordan or Abu Dhabi as a rough gravel event or even India?

Rotation as has been discussed doesn't work well for the european organisers. Maybe it could work for these new "rich" events where someone else pays for the marketing value so they don't actually have to be sustainable. Or maybe detach organisation from country and have the same organisers do the rally each year but change country.

New Zealand would be cool to have back, it's one of my favourite rallies.

[Jack4688`]

"For example, we're missing a really rough rally in the style of the Acropolis or Cyprus - but Turkey fits that bill very well."

So what's wrong with Acropolis then?

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

"For example, we're missing a really rough rally in the style of the Acropolis or Cyprus - but Turkey fits that bill very well."

So what's wrong with Acropolis then?
Lack of money..?

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[janvanvurpa]

Add Canada as a winter rally that can safely deliver snow?
New Zealand would be cool to have back, it's one of my favourite rallies.

regrettons ami, Canada--or specifically Ontario and/or Quebec doesn't have the people, the numbers, or the competitors enough to host a WRC..
I have rallied in Canadian Rally Championship inOntario and Quebec--more in Quebec..

They have the enthusiasm, and they MAY have the snow--but no certainty there really---and in Quebec they could have cooperative municipalities and authorities..
But not enough people, not enough "filler" cars, zero homologated cars and really not good enough roads..
many of the roads they can use are giant wide and straight roads....personally i was shocked that i was averaging more that 10% higher average speed in my little 2wd car on clean transparent ICE--with no studs---than on gravel in summer..
I in fact asked in both Ontario and in Quebec why such huge straight roads and was told "all the counties are broke. They have no money to repair the many narrower, curvier fun roads so if there is one simple washout of a single culvert like HERE (and he shows me a map) that means over 100km of good squiggly roads are not available for us."

I even asked if the organisers themselves could organise working detail to go and repair of fix simple washouts so they could get in and get out and they said "No way. Contract agreements means it must be done by county workers"

So forget Canada. Forget USA, too. Same zero homologated cars, almost zero experience organising anything larger than local events...and incompetent sanctioning bodies that know less than zero.

[Rallyper]

MAny countries will not be able to have "fillers" and we´ll have maybe 25 cars on events outside Europe except for one or two countries (Aus and NZ not counted). Problems enough I think.

[janvanvurpa]

MAny countries will not be able to have "fillers" and we´ll have maybe 25 cars on events outside Europe except for one or two countries (Aus and NZ not counted). Problems enough I think.


yes very difficult to make big promotion and generate big excitement when there are only 13-15 cars and even harder when you call the event a "World Championship" event..

Maybe in America it might work like in the thing they call Globular rallycross but it does look very odd to see seating in the stands for 30,000 but zero people in those stands...

A long time ago there was a requirement that a country must be able to have minimum 50 cars or no WRC..
I guess that no longer applies..

Something has gone wrong.

[AL14]

I know this is not very much popular but I would rather prefer 25 good cars with good drivers and more variety than going always in the same roads with the same stages run for decades.
Of course iconic events have a unique allure and I'm the first one to love them but we can't run the same 13/14 events for ever.

[Rallyper]

I know this is not very much popular but I would rather prefer 25 good cars with good drivers and more variety than going always in the same roads with the same stages run for decades.
Of course iconic events have a unique allure and I'm the first one to love them but we can't run the same 13/14 events for ever.

Oh, yes we can. However you have a point that events can be boring if organizers don´t run enough new stages every year. And there´s still possible to run maybe one new event a year.

[Rally Power]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124600/thirteen-new-rallies-chasing-calendar-slots 13!!! Rotation system, here we go again...

Autosport text it’s quite close with last week Motorsport Monday article. But it misses one crucial point: the promoter said to MM that their rotation plan it’s based on a 3 years on 3 years off system, in order to ensure that new events would get an easier financial planning.

It’s hard to believe that rotation is the way to develop WRC, as the previous experiences have shown (based in one year leaves), but this eventual 3 year cycle seems the right way to destroy it!

In a 14 events calendar like the one we got, there’s room for some improving rearrangements (with NZ comeback on top of the list), and none of the current events should be forever granted if organizers flaws became evident, but this new rotation scheme seems more a fast way to get money than an honest answer to fix WRC media coverage problem.

[Eli]

Autosport text it’s quite close with last week Motorsport Monday article. But it misses one crucial point: the promoter said to MM that their rotation plan it’s based on a 3 years on 3 years off system, in order to ensure that new events would get an easier financial planning.

It’s hard to believe that rotation is the way to develop WRC, as the previous experiences have shown (based in one year leaves), but this eventual 3 year cycle seems the right way to destroy it!

In a 14 events calendar like the one we got, there’s room for some improving rearrangements (with NZ comeback on top of the list), and none of the current events should be forever granted if organizers flaws became evident, but this new rotation scheme seems more a fast way to get money than an honest answer to fix WRC media coverage problem.
They should start by letting go of John Desbrough..ehm...ehm..

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[tommeke_B]

http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blognl/?p=28230

Sven Smeets replaces Jost Capito as sporting director for WRC at Volkswagen Motorsport. I'm sure we aren't going to read and hear much rubbish from Smeets as we did from Capito. Always better to see a former driver or codriver in such position than some manager who comes from circuit racing and has no idea about rallying... :)

[Mirek]

The sad thing about it is that the manager from circuits managed to crush all the traditional teams like they were just a bunch of amateurs...

[CWJ]

But JC is still "motorsport director" and ceo so its just another structure and a new post "sporting director" now.

[seb_sh]

But JC is still "motorsport director" and ceo so its just another structure and a new post "sporting director" now.

Nope, JC is going to McLaren in F1. He just stayed with VW until a suitable replacement could be found, so I guess he'll be handing things over and be on his way in a few months.

[AndyRAC]

They're depressingly predictable, aren't they? They never learn, and once again are chasing the money, just like F1. Except, F1 is far more global - the reason the WRC is Euro-centric is because that is were the most interest is.

The WRC needs 12-13 proper 'events' that sell/ promote the sport; rather than the identikit events we get now. But they won't change it. You reap what you sow.

[Barreis]

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124619

[EstWRC]

Reading this i just cant wait when Capito leaves....

[Eli]

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124619

if they do go ahead with a 3 car team, perhaps they can bring the old points scroing system back to 10-8-6-5-4...etc..etc.. because it will be much more comfortable to follow.

[Mirek]

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124619


Reading this i just cant wait when Capito leaves....

Why not to simply set that one of those three cars has to be driven by a young driver, let's say under 28 years of age?

[AL14]

Or we can just take the best two result of the three...

By the way, someone tell Jost Capito that he does not need to give an opinion on everything everytime.
Jesus Christ, when the hell does he will go away and never come back?

[Simmi]

Why not to simply set that one of those three cars has to be driven by a young driver, let's say under 28 years of age?

I've been saying this for ages. It seems so blindingly obvious to me. But I would not cap it at age, I'd cap it at WRC experience.

Because at say 28 you'd have a guy like Mikkelsen in the third car for 5+ years. We need to bring more drivers through quicker than that I think. Maybe Andreas is an exception because he came through so young. But for me it's not the age that's the issue (e.g. look at relative late bloomers like Meeke and Paddon). To put it into perspective, Camilli is already 28.

I'd mandate a third driver must have done no more than say 26 WRC car outings at WRC level before the start of the current season. That way you're effectively giving talent two years at the top level and then you either move them up or move on. It would stop people getting complacent and it would mean teams need to keep giving young drivers a chance. 26 is just a number I've picked - they would need to apply a bit more thinking to it. But you get the idea.

[janvanvurpa]

They're depressingly predictable, aren't they? They never learn, and once again are chasing the money, just like F1. Except, F1 is far more global - the reason the WRC is Euro-centric is because that is were the most interest is.

The WRC needs 12-13 proper 'events' that sell/ promote the sport; rather than the identikit events we get now. But they won't change it. You reap what you sow.

Even before I started driving rally 30 years ago I was dimly aware of it (cause all the magazines we're genral motorsport magazines so while i'm reading about moto-cross events that my freiends were doing in World Championship 250 in where ever the same issue would have rally coverage...and once you read the MX reports 3 or 4 times you'd drift over and read about these odd fellows who'd drive CARS down skinny forest roads......

And the most intriguing thing was the HUGE!!! variety of terrains and climates and FORMATS....The RAC, Swedish, 1000 Lakes. Safari! Monte was one kind of epic adventure (who has has driven all across Europe in Winter?)..

Now everybody says "there's no way you could do that now'..
Yeah. With so much better roads and petrol stations and better tires and better cars and better PR, there's no way we could do what they did in the 1960s and 70s and 80s

Yeah, right..

300 km SS a WORLD championship event?
Fawk me I've done 300 km in a rally myself. (CRC Rocky Mountain 1987) That's nothing.
I've done 300km in deep woods on a enduro bike in one day--bloody long day and at the end did another 16km on a mx "special test"...

300 km SS.. (shakes head)..

[Mirek]

Sorry Jan, the reason why You can't do Monte across the whole Europe is that there is completely different level of traffic and You simply can't close the international public roads without creating a complete traffic collapse everywhere around. In those days they drove on opened roads which is complete nonsense for today as somebody would be killed probably already in first few hours of the event.

Also, where is any sporting value (today) of driving for example from Poland to Monte Carlo when You can theoretically do nearly the whole route on rpm limiter?

Another point... How can You realisitically cope with different law, different bunch of bureaucrats, different local authorities and different languages in every single state You would go through?

[janvanvurpa]

Sorry Jan, the reason why You can't do Monte across the whole Europe is that there is completely different level of traffic and You simply can't close the international public roads without creating a complete traffic collapse everywhere around. In those days they drove on opened roads which is complete nonsense for today as somebody would be killed probably already in first few hours of the event.

Also, where is any sporting value (today) of driving for example from Poland to Monte Carlo when You can theoretically do nearly the whole route on rpm limiter?

Another point... How can You realisitically cope with different law, different bunch of bureaucrats, different local authorities and different languages in every single state You would go through?


OK slow down and look at one element at a time..
The Concentration run yes was done on open roads.. and the route was "FREE" except you must pass thru and be stamped at certain Passage Controls....and if the Passage Control is situated in an how shall we say "interesting" location, that means when you start from Warsava or Smolensk you will have to eventually PASS down this or that road--you have to get there.
And depending on how the Passage Controls are situated, the route can be pretty "interesting" to do in the middle of winter..
So technical challenge, no.."Sporting" maybe, but mental adventure for the driver/co-driver and fans following the progress for a week..potentially very good.

Really all excitement takes place in the brain, and the imagination is a big part of excitement---including the anticipation of action (just look at every thread here about good WRC or EM events, lots of anticipatory discussion)

So anticipatory build up could be some spice---the thing which has faded as the events become predictable sprints every single one.

The actual SS of course same as now--closed roads, marshaled, uzw

As for traffic regs---well on concentration run the cars are ---oh. wait..The cars are not road legal in any way now..


ooops..

Whatever the case, the main point is the cookie-cutter format, schedule, execution of events..

The locales, the different countries are now, with the sameness of the aspects of events, mainly just different backdrop....different often very pretty but mainly scenery..

They could do it CGI and Blue Screen

[Mirek]

So You want to organize a gigantic route section over the whole Europe with some special stages here and there. What is that good for? Why shall anybody want to drive it with modern rallycar? Those who want to drive something like that can do it anyway as the format of Monte Carlo historic hasn't changed.

And by the way I have driven four times from CZ to Monte Carlo and back and there is absolutely no reason why I shall do that in a rally car. I did one of those trips in a recce car (Somewhat modified Impreza GT) and it was pretty annoying experience. 1300 km over boring motorways in heavy traffic with a noisy, uncomfortable car. What is it good for?

[N.O.T]

OK slow down and look at one element at a time..
The Concentration run yes was done on open roads.. and the route was "FREE" except you must pass thru and be stamped at certain Passage Controls....and if the Passage Control is situated in an how shall we say "interesting" location, that means when you start from Warsava or Smolensk you will have to eventually PASS down this or that road--you have to get there.
And depending on how the Passage Controls are situated, the route can be pretty "interesting" to do in the middle of winter..
So technical challenge, no.."Sporting" maybe, but mental adventure for the driver/co-driver and fans following the progress for a week..potentially very good.


And that is why old people should not be allowed near PCs

[stefanvv]

Nobody cares

[Lundefaret]

Sorry Jan, the reason why You can't do Monte across the whole Europe is that there is completely different level of traffic and You simply can't close the international public roads without creating a complete traffic collapse everywhere around. In those days they drove on opened roads which is complete nonsense for today as somebody would be killed probably already in first few hours of the event.

Also, where is any sporting value (today) of driving for example from Poland to Monte Carlo when You can theoretically do nearly the whole route on rpm limiter?

Another point... How can You realisitically cope with different law, different bunch of bureaucrats, different local authorities and different languages in every single state You would go through?

The Monte is done every year in the "historic" way, its called the Monte Carlo Rally "Historique", and its a great experience.
The reason that should be done also today is that it would be a unique way to bring motorsport to the people (which rallying has an exeptional potential to do.)

[Mirek]

I mentioned the Monte Carlo Historique in my following post.

Anyway I still don't see why any team should want to drive thousands of completely useless kilometers with their rally cars? Who would pay that and why when it has no sporting value?

PS Monte Carlo used to pass through the place where I was born in the distant past. We also used to have a big motorcycle race on the public roads around the town. It was nice in that time but it's history. Nothing else.

[OldF]

And that is why old people should not be allowed near PCs

You know NOT, being old doesn’t mean not having any knowledge how to use computers or the applications.

Although I’m old I’ve been living with PC’s since 1986, so your justification is not correct and that probably also concern Jan.
Jan, if you feel bad…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PM1HF9Fq1c

[stefanvv]

Although I’m old I’ve been living with PC’s since 1986

Wow, You are old. One of the pioneers in IBM (perhaps) PC users, cool. Internet (not in its current form of course) is even older I think.

EDIT: BTW that's nearly the same time I wrote my first software program, am I old too:D

[Allyc85]

Wow this is interesting news...

[stefanvv]

No it's not

[Rallyper]

I´m not saying "new" Monte should be a solution, however Jan has a good point. Rallying (the word) is about gathering, right? So MC in it´s old form was very spectacular. I notice that many of you youngsters even not understand what we oldies talking about when hinting that some things were better back in the old days.

Back to MC in the 60´s. Starts all over Europe, like from Stockholm, Oslo whatever more places. Big news in media back then.

Making WRC more interesting isn´t easy these days when there´s only money rules. It´s a competiton against other sports, motorsports, X-games etz. having a WRC rally in Indonesia doesn´t make anyone more happy.
Solutions? I don´t know. Back to basic? Longer rallies? Enduro-thinking? Maybe.

[stefanvv]

Making WRC more interesting isn´t easy these days when there´s only money rules. It´s a competiton against other sports, motorsports, X-games etz. having a WRC rally in Indonesia doesn´t make anyone more happy.
Solutions? I don´t know. Back to basic? Longer rallies? Enduro-thinking? Maybe.

Doesn't work. Current rallies should cut costs, i.e. repeat the morning stages in the afternoon and make the mandatory 3rd day a joke with few sprint stages. Rally will never will be what it has been, money rules..... The really bad part of this is running order, it doesn't make any difference with 2 long days and last extremely short, the thrill is over......

[OldF]

Wow, You are old. One of the pioneers in IBM (perhaps) PC users, cool. Internet (not in its current form of course) is even older I think.

EDIT: BTW that's nearly the same time I wrote my first software program, am I old too:D

As you know, here’s some old farts around here.;)

No, I’m not a pioneer at IBM. In fact, my first touch with computers was in the late 70’s when I was studying. I’m not a guru for programming but I’ve done few programs with language that could be called being near assembly programming. I’ve build a microcomputer with a friend in the past and made one program for that one. This is the book for that.

http://retro.hansotten.nl/uploads/eljunior/juniorbooks/ukjunior1.pdf

[Barreis]

As you know, here’s some old farts around here.;)

No, I’m not a pioneer at IBM. In fact, my first touch with computers was in the late 70’s when I was studying. I’m not a guru for programming but I’ve done few programs with language that could be called being near assembly programming. I’ve build a microcomputer with a friend in the past and made one program for that one. This is the book for that.

http://retro.hansotten.nl/uploads/eljunior/juniorbooks/ukjunior1.pdf

For what kind of computer is this with 6502? Atari 800xl, old Apples, or first Commodores? :D

[Mirek]

I´m not saying "new" Monte should be a solution, however Jan has a good point. Rallying (the word) is about gathering, right? So MC in it´s old form was very spectacular. I notice that many of you youngsters even not understand what we oldies talking about when hinting that some things were better back in the old days.

Back to MC in the 60´s. Starts all over Europe, like from Stockholm, Oslo whatever more places. Big news in media back then.

Making WRC more interesting isn´t easy these days when there´s only money rules. It´s a competiton against other sports, motorsports, X-games etz. having a WRC rally in Indonesia doesn´t make anyone more happy.
Solutions? I don´t know. Back to basic? Longer rallies? Enduro-thinking? Maybe.

And the grass was greener in the 60', I know. Times change and not everything what worked 50 years a go can be repeated today. Sorry but the idea to hold Monte in a way it was held in 60' is completely ridiculous. Just try to tell the team managers that they are going to spend two weeks on the event with thousands of non-competitive kilometers all around Europe and watch how they react.

[stefanvv]

Rally has become heavy lifting category.

[stefanvv]

As you know, here’s some old farts around here.;)

No, I’m not a pioneer at IBM. In fact, my first touch with computers was in the late 70’s when I was studying. I’m not a guru for programming but I’ve done few programs with language that could be called being near assembly programming. I’ve build a microcomputer with a friend in the past and made one program for that one. This is the book for that.

http://retro.hansotten.nl/uploads/eljunior/juniorbooks/ukjunior1.pdf

Interesting, I guess it is more or less the same computer one of my co-students assembled from parts back then Pravetz 8 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravetz_series_8)D - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oric#Clones and used small TV as display. Your's is called "Junior" ours has been named "Home" (this is the suffix D comes from).

[AL14]

And the grass was greener in the 60', I know.

The grass was tastier in the '60, if you know what I mean... ;)

[OldF]

For what kind of computer is this with 6502? Atari 800xl, old Apples, or first Commodores? :D

With little help from Wikipedia. Apple, Commodore etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_6502

[OldF]

Interesting, I guess it is more or less the same computer one of my co-students assembled from parts back then Pravetz 8 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravetz_series_8)D - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oric#Clones and used small TV as display. Your's is called "Junior" ours has been named "Home" (this is the suffix D comes from).

Let’s continue here (http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?36845-Microprocessor-amp-computer-chit-chat&p=1095343#post1095343) so don’t fill the thread with off topics.

[janvanvurpa]

And the grass was greener in the 60', I know. Times change and not everything what worked 50 years a go can be repeated today. Sorry but the idea to hold Monte in a way it was held in 60' is completely ridiculous. Just try to tell the team managers that they are going to spend two weeks on the event with thousands of non-competitive kilometers all around Europe and watch how they react.


Mirek, for phuques sake the main point is---and should be obvious---that the sport we like has become "cookie cutter"
And moron manager types and "idiot fan boi live-in-Mama's-basement" scream for ever more simplification, standardization, and homogenization of EVERY single facet of the sport..
The cars look identical nearly, the drivers look nearly all the same, the schedules of things are the same, most the "taught by manager" statements from drivers are the same, Just the introductory background long establishing shots are different.

Almost like circuit racing. And clearly intended to be like circuit racing in its structure and organisation , management and execution..

And with the most amount of sarcasm I can must this early before I have tea:

And they wonder why there is such vastly diminished interest?

Well duh.

[Mirek]

Do You actually believe that thinking about some utopia helps anything? What was in 60th was in 60th. It won't come back no matter how much You wish it come. There are more than enough reasons why. Maybe it's better to get used to the fact that the sport is not like it used to be.

[tommeke_B]

There's a good reason why the sport has changed in comparison to how it was 30/40/50 years ago. You can see that in every sport there's some evolution. In rallying much more than anywhere else as you are dealing with technology, but also with a constant changing society. Things that were considered normal in those days are (unfortunately) unacceptable today... Things like endless recce/training, even with competition cars, weeks before big events, were normal back then, but it almost killed the sport. Ask some well-informed person from the UK why there's almost no tarmac rallying left in the UK. Also the roadside service is something unthinkable today. Not only because it's unpractical for other traffic (cars and vans often being half on the road), but also because of the added danger of the extra "rally" created by service vans that try to meet the drivers as often as possible. Same goes for the rally on public roads as the Safari Rally was. Today it's hard enough already for organizers to make an event happen.

I would love to see longer events with more days, more different stages, night stages, mixed surfaces etc. But you have to be realistic. Most people here have more or less an idea of the cost of running a rallycar, very few have an idea of the cost of organizing an event... ;)

[N.O.T]

No reason to get upset with people that like the past, it is sad that their best and happiest years have gone long time now but you should be sympathetic to those that have no future to look forward to.

The human kind is at the top of the food chain because it adapts and evolves and always looking forward.

[AL14]

Paddon's Q&A with fans on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/haydenpaddonwrc/photos/a.186311901404607.35647.184390891596708/1015160995186356/?type=3&theater

There are more "news" and interesting topics debated on that link than in David Evans portfolio.

[Rallyper]

Do You actually believe that thinking about some utopia helps anything? What was in 60th was in 60th. It won't come back no matter how much You wish it come. There are more than enough reasons why. Maybe it's better to get used to the fact that the sport is not like it used to be.

So, Mirek, what do you want the rallysport to be. Ruled by moneyinterested men in boarding rooms wanting shootouts last day to determine the winner? No man.

I don´t say we should have Monte back the way it was in the 60´s. But we can´t make WRC a circuitracing sport either.
It has to be more endurance, maybe longer rallies and why not rules not allowing current extreme costcars.

[Rallyper]

No reason to get upset with people that like the past, it is sad that their best and happiest years have gone long time now but you should be sympathetic to those that have no future to look forward to.

The human kind is at the top of the food chain because it adapts and evolves and always looking forward.

So you too like the way WRC has gone? Soon it will be on closed circuits and you´ll love it?

[N.O.T]

So you too like the way WRC has gone? Soon it will be on closed circuits and you´ll love it?

What indications you have that we are going to a closed circuit format ? the fact that we do not have 200 stages and average speeds of 30 km/hr driven by hamburger boys rather than athletes ?

[Rallyper]

What indications you have that we are going to a closed circuit format ? the fact that we do not have 200 stages and average speeds of 30 km/hr driven by hamburger boys rather than athletes ?

Isn´t it what you used to say yourself?

[stefanvv]

What are You saying, NOT is NOTing himself already?

[Mirek]

So, Mirek, what do you want the rallysport to be. Ruled by moneyinterested men in boarding rooms wanting shootouts last day to determine the winner? No man.

I don´t say we should have Monte back the way it was in the 60´s. But we can´t make WRC a circuitracing sport either.
It has to be more endurance, maybe longer rallies and why not rules not allowing current extreme costcars.

Dear Per, I know some of You don't like my point of view but I believe that the only reasonable way to think about the problem is to try to be as reaslistic as possible. Why shall I even bother thinking about returning of the 60' style of RMC when I know that it's nothing but past which will never be brought back? Nobody is intrested in it except several fans on the internet and that's why I scrap the idea. Teams, organizers, FIA, none of them is going to support such idea so why to bother even thinking about it? It's waste of time, nothing more.

It's the same kind of discussion like about bringing back the gr.A regulations. I always try to see what is reaslistic. And those fat managers bringing silly ideas are actually very important because it's them who bring billions into the sport and keep it running. They don't do it out of fun, they want something back because otherwise they won't do it at all. And that's the core of everything. You can call it viscious circle or whatever but You can't do a shit without them and even if they come with silly ideas like Capito does You can only hope other teams and FIA will keep things somewhat under control. But the point is that Capito can come with such a silly idea because he is in the position which allows him to do that. We are not and that's why it's necessary to try to see the things from their point of view to understand what is realistically possible and what is not. If I clearly know about some idea that all these managers will say no, I know also that such idea isn't worth discussing.

[N.O.T]

Isn´t it what you used to say yourself?

no

[Martins Tolks]

Mirek is making a strong point here. We can wish everything possible and impossible, but the big money, that run the sport, still comes from manufacturers and large sponsors. And organize something to influcence them is beyond possible, I guess. By simply turning away from sport, all we can make is closing of championship, because noone is interested and manufacturers would no longer care. They can do without wrc, to be honest. Fans can express opinions to organizers and FIA, but they are not obliged to use them.
And yes, as world has changed a lot, new focus for wrc needs to be found. All around is much more civilised and comfortable, than it was 30 or even 20 years ago. New generations don't really care about rallying as challenge of worlds best drivers, because they have never driven off pavement, not to mention sideways. So, you need to find solution to make rally appeal as an adventure to them or make it closer and more understandable (and possibly, boring). Something like that...

[AL14]

Even if money or investors weren't a problem that is impossible.
Come on guys everything is connected with context. Nowadays the world is much different from 60's in many levels.
Do you think cars have the same appeal than now?
Do you think internet, mobile phones, this forum don't play a role in defining a product like WRC?
Do you think car marketing is the same?
Do you think cars are the same?
Do you think fans are looking for the same things?

I can continue for hours...

[GigiGalliNo1]

No

[seb_sh]

Indeed in order to have a better sport one should not try to "make it how it was x years ago" but instead make a quality series that is relevant today. I don't mean throwing away everything but you also need to adapt to the context.

[itix]

I know this is not very much popular but I would rather prefer 25 good cars with good drivers and more variety than going always in the same roads with the same stages run for decades.
Of course iconic events have a unique allure and I'm the first one to love them but we can't run the same 13/14 events for ever.
He has a point. The only endless classic is Monte... Apart from that more or less every event can be done without if you think about it, even my own beloved sweden. Sweden and GB have strong cases to stay as they have been for long but let's be realistic, none of them are irreplaceable.

[Rallyper]

Mirek is making a strong point here. We can wish everything possible and impossible, but the big money, that run the sport, still comes from manufacturers and large sponsors. And organize something to influcence them is beyond possible, I guess. By simply turning away from sport, all we can make is closing of championship, because noone is interested and manufacturers would no longer care. They can do without wrc, to be honest. Fans can express opinions to organizers and FIA, but they are not obliged to use them.
And yes, as world has changed a lot, new focus for wrc needs to be found. All around is much more civilised and comfortable, than it was 30 or even 20 years ago. New generations don't really care about rallying as challenge of worlds best drivers, because they have never driven off pavement, not to mention sideways. So, you need to find solution to make rally appeal as an adventure to them or make it closer and more understandable (and possibly, boring). Something like that...

We already have RX for those kind of spectators.

[Rallyper]

You guys are hooked up on "back to 60´s" but it isn´t really what is meant.
However rallying is about running cars on remote specialstages.

The important thing is that rallying (WRC) keeps it soul, it might be from the 50`or 60`no matter what. But trying to recast rallying to something else that is not rallying? No way for me!

[Rally Power]

Most of You are probably right and there’s no need to get back to 2wd low tech machines, 600 kms of stages and all week long rallys, but for God’s sake, why can’t the FIA and the Promoter be wiser and respect a bit more WRC strong heritage? Why do they insist on a sort of rally formula franchising, with similar sprint rallys all over the world? Can’t they see that model has failed?

WRC needs MC historic charisma, Sweden winter conditions, Portugal’s public passion, Finland’s chalenching roads or Britain’s unique season finale. This is a heritage that can’t be wasted. It may be true that every event can be replaced, but we’re still missing NZ or Sanremo and we know the series have become poor without them. WRC is an institution and institutions can only progress and get stronger if they respect their own past.

FIA must forget calendar rotation and spreading WRC to countries with no rally tradition. The 9 to 5 schedule and the clover leaf format are totally wasted. Current WRC organizers should be allowed to reinvent their rally routes: let them use different schedules and layouts. WRC cars high tech development must be restricted and car homologation procedures simplified: we need more makes and models, especially in lower categories. Young driver’s programs and local crew’s participation should be promoted.

It’s not easy to revamp WRC. But if FIA doesn’t take rally sport as a whole and respect its spirit it’ll never succeed.

[Rallyper]

Most of You are probably right and there’s no need to get back to 2wd low tech machines, 600 kms of stages and all week long rallys, but for God’s sake, why can’t the FIA and the Promoter be wiser and respect a bit more WRC strong heritage? Why do they insist on a sort of rally formula franchising, with similar sprint rallys all over the world? Can’t they see that model has failed?

WRC needs MC historic charisma, Sweden winter conditions, Portugal’s public passion, Finland’s chalenching roads or Britain’s unique season finale. This is a heritage that can’t be wasted. It may be true that every event can be replaced, but we’re still missing NZ or Sanremo and we know the series have become poor without them. WRC is an institution and institutions can only progress and get stronger if they respect their own past.

FIA must forget calendar rotation and spreading WRC to countries with no rally tradition. The 9 to 5 schedule and the clover leaf format are totally wasted. Current WRC organizers should be allowed to reinvent their rally routes: let them use different schedules and layouts. WRC cars high tech development must be restricted and car homologation procedures simplified: we need more makes and models, especially in lower categories. Young driver’s programs and local crew’s participation should be promoted.

It’s not easy to revamp WRC. But if FIA doesn’t take rally sport as a whole and respect its spirit it’ll never succeed.

That was spot on!! +100 !!

[Mirek]

We already have RX for those kind of spectators.

This is exactly wrong thinking. For whom than the WRC is? It's for people who buy cars. This is how it's seen by manufacturers and it's rightful to see it as such. The society and the public reception of cars has changed hugely. Nowadays very few car buyers care about mechanical side of the product, about engines and gearboxes. Most of them don't even open the bonnet. You may rightfully dislike that (such as I do) but for many people today the more important thing about their car is that it works with their smartphone, have a big LCD screen, radar cruise control and can park automatically. This is where we got.

On the other hand I agree that WRC shall use more it's heritage and try to show more real stories. That's definitely good thing to do because rallying has a very big potential for creating stories. But than You have the RedBull as promoter and it's not difficult to see a clear pattern in anything RedBull does.

[AL14]

Of course me too I agree to not forget the past, learn from it and keep safe the soul and meaning of what rally is about. This is clear and I think we all agree on that.

What's really wrong today is that a promoter like RedBull sees the presence of 5 manufacturers and 13 new countries willing to enter the championship as an accomplishment rather than a "start". They are happy because there will be more money but I think it is actually a unique occasion to improve the product on many levels. I don't know if it will happen...
This is a more important problem of WRC nowadays in my opinion.

[Eli]

Sardegna & Corsica on the line of fire and if they don't move back to mainland, France & Italy will be out alltogether from the calendar according to Motorsport Monday.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Jack4688`]

...apart from the fact the season opener is in France.

Sardegna's slot in the calendar would be a nice time of year to go to NZ and, realistically, who has been making more noise about running their event as part of the WRC? Some of those 13 events 'ready' to host a round of the WRC are a total surprise.

Croatia, for example, has a long established event (though no longer part of the ERC anymore) and others are part of ERC/APRC but where in the hell did Canada, Chile and Korea come from? I was surprised when I looked at the MERC calendar that there is no Abu Dhabi event but there's so much money spilling out of UAE I'm sure they would be able to put on a rally to WRC Commission/FIA/Red Bull's standards at the first attempt.

[Lousada]

This is exactly wrong thinking. For whom than the WRC is? It's for people who buy cars. This is how it's seen by manufacturers and it's rightful to see it as such. The society and the public reception of cars has changed hugely. Nowadays very few car buyers care about mechanical side of the product, about engines and gearboxes. Most of them don't even open the bonnet. You may rightfully dislike that (such as I do) but for many people today the more important thing about their car is that it works with their smartphone, have a big LCD screen, radar cruise control and can park automatically. This is where we got.

This is one of these 'truths' that gets repeated over and over but I do not think they relate to motorracing. Did the average car buyer 30 years ago really care about the mechanical aspects of a car?? The used-car-salesman is a very old and common stereotype. That stereotype did not develop because average people knew so much about cars, rather the opposite. In my opinion the interest in the mechanical aspect of cars of the average person has not changed that much since then. The only difference between then and now is that now every car is pretty reliable so there is more focus on other functionality.

I am talking about the average person here of course. This does not apply to the minority of people that is interested in performance racing. Yes these people have disappeared from the rally sport somewhat. But is that because there is no more interest in performance cars or because rally sport does not cater to these people?? If you look at car parks on rally stages, you see Imprezas, Lancers, Escorts and other interesting vehicles. And then you watch the actual rallycars and you see identical Ford Fiestas, Opel Adams and Peugeot 208s. No wonder people with mechanical interests are not bothered by the rallysport.


On the other hand I agree that WRC shall use more it's heritage and try to show more real stories. That's definitely good thing to do because rallying has a very big potential for creating stories. But than You have the RedBull as promoter and it's not difficult to see a clear pattern in anything RedBull does.

Yes you are correct, stories need to be told. The evolution of rallycars, the different philosophies of the manufacturers, the adaptation of cars to the different surfaces and different rallies, all these things are important stories by which you can fill a lot of pre-rally discussions. But all that is killed by the homologations which dictate one identical car for all 13 events.

[Eli]

...apart from the fact the season opener is in France.

Sardegna's slot in the calendar would be a nice time of year to go to NZ and, realistically, who has been making more noise about running their event as part of the WRC? Some of those 13 events 'ready' to host a round of the WRC are a total surprise.

Croatia, for example, has a long established event (though no longer part of the ERC anymore) and others are part of ERC/APRC but where in the hell did Canada, Chile and Korea come from? I was surprised when I looked at the MERC calendar that there is no Abu Dhabi event but there's so much money spilling out of UAE I'm sure they would be able to put on a rally to WRC Commission/FIA/Red Bull's standards at the first attempt.
Yeah well MC is MC, hopefullt they are not stupid enough to let it go again.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Martins Tolks]

If you look at car parks on rally stages, you see Imprezas, Lancers, Escorts and other interesting vehicles. And then you watch the actual rallycars and you see identical Ford Fiestas, Opel Adams and Peugeot 208s. No wonder people with mechanical interests are not bothered by the rallysport.

These interesting vehicles were making loss for manufacturers back then. And even today, production of some special editions are quite pointless, as there are not enough buyers. Ok, there are exceptions, but not many. Also, people with mechanical interests and understanding guess wouldn't bother about looks as they know what those cars can deliver. Sheer looks like evo and impreza can better attract common people just on visual basis.

[Mirek]

This is one of these 'truths' that gets repeated over and over but I do not think they relate to motorracing. Did the average car buyer 30 years ago really care about the mechanical aspects of a car?? The used-car-salesman is a very old and common stereotype. That stereotype did not develop because average people knew so much about cars, rather the opposite. In my opinion the interest in the mechanical aspect of cars of the average person has not changed that much since then. The only difference between then and now is that now every car is pretty reliable so there is more focus on other functionality.

I am talking about the average person here of course. This does not apply to the minority of people that is interested in performance racing. Yes these people have disappeared from the rally sport somewhat. But is that because there is no more interest in performance cars or because rally sport does not cater to these people?? If you look at car parks on rally stages, you see Imprezas, Lancers, Escorts and other interesting vehicles. And then you watch the actual rallycars and you see identical Ford Fiestas, Opel Adams and Peugeot 208s. No wonder people with mechanical interests are not bothered by the rallysport.


What I meant is that saying "there is RX for such people" like Per said is wrong because the pool of those true petrol heads is relatively small (even the number of Imprezas and Evos around the stages is very small compared to the large majority of spectators) and the manufacturers involved in rallying naturally want to attract all kinds of car buyers including facebook/youtube generation or people who have no will to study exact rules (one particular problem of rallying is that it has very complicated rules but on the other hand other sports like baseball has too).

About the particular development in the society. Maybe it's because I come from different country but here the change is very rapid and clearly visible. Thirty years a go plenty of people were able to repair their cars themselves and were used to that. Basically every person living in a village was able to repair at least their moped (even my mother who is economist). That nearly completely disappeared with the development in car industry and with everything being a lot more affordable to buy and replace instead of repairing.


Yes you are correct, stories need to be told. The evolution of rallycars, the different philosophies of the manufacturers, the adaptation of cars to the different surfaces and different rallies, all these things are important stories by which you can fill a lot of pre-rally discussions. But all that is killed by the homologations which dictate one identical car for all 13 events.

I do agree. I'm all for more variety in the machinery and more freedom in the rules which could allow different approaches and ideas, something similar to current Le Mans rules. On the other hand the current state of rules was introduced to keep cost down for privateers and the large freedom would certainly close the door for them.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

IMO people need to be captured by the excitement of watching thrilling rally cars to get them into the sport.

I know lots of people who like performance cars but have no interest in rallying.

[N.O.T]

IMO people need to be captured by the excitement of watching thrilling rally cars to get them into the sport.

I know lots of people who like performance cars but have no interest in rallying.

People who like performance cars usually are bottom feeders who enjoy the chinless vagabond dogs videos doing burnouts and going sideways around barrels after 176 attemps... we do not need these people in the rallying, we are the master race of motorsport... otherwise we might end up like MotoGP and F1 where every scared kid will have an opinion about the sport.

[AndyRAC]

IMO people need to be captured by the excitement of watching thrilling rally cars to get them into the sport.


Yes. And how do you manage that? Simple. By doing proper promotion and making it easy for people to see the sport live.

Sadly, most promoters just want to make money, rather than actually promote; it's too much hard work.

[GigiGalliNo1]

How are the promoters making money with our sport? If there aren't many people watching or we are all complaining the coverage is sh!te... are the promoters lying to advertisers with made up viewer figures and stealing their money?

Trying to make the sport interesting, with WRC+ and so on yet everyone dislikes it?

[Jack4688`]

The difference could be people like me - don't really like it in it's current format, hate the twatbag behind the mic on British coverage yet still I watch and add to the viewing figures.

[Franky]

How are the promoters making money with our sport? If there aren't many people watching or we are all complaining the coverage is sh!te... are the promoters lying to advertisers with made up viewer figures and stealing their money?

Yes, it's statistics. The biggest lie of them all. Took me some time, but found what they've claimed. In 2014 total of 799 million people watched WRC coverage at least once. So that's roughly 60 million per one round.

Now if we'd take two big annual events. Superbowl with it's ca 120 million record in the States and Eurovision with a bit over 200 million viewers. Both of those events are major events in their territories. As much as I'd wish for WRC to do well, I find it highly questionable that the WRC TV programming manages to get anywhere near 60 million unique viewers per event.

[Martins Tolks]

799 million only for TV or including wrc/wrc+ content?

[Franky]

Television

[Simmi]

799 million only for TV or including wrc/wrc+ content?

Maths not my strong point but I think that's just over 10% of the world's population. Is there a link to this claim?

[AL14]

Are you guys kidding me?
799 million people??

God they must be brave to just think to write it somewhere in public.

[dimviii]

number is too high to believe.

[seb_sh]

Is it 799 million individuals? How much does on person need to watch in order to be counted? If someone watches 30s on the news are they counted?

It could also be some kind of metric similar to "views" on youtube not individual viewers. So if I watch preview, each day review and final review for each round that's 5*13 = 65 "views" from me. If everyone watches like that it's 799/65 = 12.3 million people (roughly). Maybe not everyone watches all 5 programmes, let's say you watch 3 per event: that's about 30 million people that watched 3 things for each event totaling 799 million views.

I don't know how they count but I suspect it's something similar to that, here's an article about F1 where their viewership for all 19 races in 2014 is said to be 450 million but each race gets about 20 to 30 milion: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-18/how-many-people-watch-the-australian-formula-one-grand-prix/5326138

Also from the same article how for one race, the "cumulative" audience for Italy was counted to be more than the population of the country: << The report defined "cumulative audience" as "the sum of the average audiences of each individual broadcast". Italy, for example, had 71 "broadcasts". Adding average audience figures together, the report concluded the "cumulative audience" in Italy was nearly 65 million - more than its then population of 60 million. These numbers included live and delayed coverage and, in some markets, clips in news and other programs. >>

[stefanvv]

799 millions watched coverages, that makes 19 millions per highlight for a wrc round (3 daily + 1 event). May be it is possible.

[Franky]

The 799million figure I got from this article - http://www.motoring.com.au/motorsport-tv-numbers-and-skewed-views-48996/

There's also one specifically about the Australian round - http://www.rallyaustralia.com.au/global-tv-audience-64-rally-australia/

And some data from the past. 2002 - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/31147

-----------

Television has many different statistical "outputs" and you can always manipulate statistics. Ratings, reach, share, etc. Just read the first article to see how other sports are doing.

[AL14]

In your counts you are assuming that every single person, with no exception, just watch one single day coverage and then stop following WRC forever.

Please guys I don't want to think there are people who believes it or just think it can be true somehow

[Mk2 RS2000]

If I watch (a) the event preview, (b) Shakedown report, (c) Day one highlights, (d) Day two highlights, (e) Day three highlights and then (f) the Event final overview I count as 6 watches and not as 1 watcher who has seen 6 different packages.

Figures don't lie but liars can figure.

[N.O.T]

That number scared me for a moment... i thought i was a pleb liking a thing that the majority likes... but mk2 put things in perspective and order and so i can enjoy my master race status once more.

[stefanvv]

If I watch (a) the event preview, (b) Shakedown report, (c) Day one highlights, (d) Day two highlights, (e) Day three highlights and then (f) the Event final overview I count as 6 watches and not as 1 watcher who has seen 6 different packages.

Figures don't lie but liars can figure.

Where do You get shakedown report, that's new for me?

[jbmarcus21]

Sébastien Loeb entry to Vosges Rallye Festival this august with ... 205T16 => http://goo.gl/HwgM5c

[Jack4688`]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2018-ford-fiesta-spotted-testing-latest-pictures

At first I was confused at the title of the story being '2018' Fiesta, but perhaps they're employing the illogical US model year tradition... Anyway, for an 'early 2017 launch' will there be enough numbers produced for homologation by late Jan? When does the homologation number actually need to be achieved?

BTW what is the homologation number these days?

[TWRC]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2018-ford-fiesta-spotted-testing-latest-pictures

At first I was confused at the title of the story being '2018' Fiesta, but perhaps they're employing the illogical US model year tradition... Anyway, for an 'early 2017 launch' will there be enough numbers produced for homologation by late Jan? When does the homologation number actually need to be achieved?

BTW what is the homologation number these days?
If I remember well, the Lada Vesta WTCC was homologated before the production began. So an agreement with FIA might allow them to use that car if that's the case.

[Jack4688`]

I can't remember the details but wasn't that the issue Hyundai had with the 3 door version of the new i20?

[Eli]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2018-ford-fiesta-spotted-testing-latest-pictures

At first I was confused at the title of the story being '2018' Fiesta, but perhaps they're employing the illogical US model year tradition... Anyway, for an 'early 2017 launch' will there be enough numbers produced for homologation by late Jan? When does the homologation number actually need to be achieved?

BTW what is the homologation number these days?

yes but check autoexpress about that year 2018, http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/fiesta/93556/new-2017-ford-fiesta-pictures-specs-release-date-and-fresh-spies it's 2017 so...

[Eli]

btw has anyone seen this? http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124692/loeb-backs-ogier-in-wrc-rules-row

[Fast Eddie WRC]

btw has anyone seen this? http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124692/loeb-backs-ogier-in-wrc-rules-row

Yes, but no-one says anything as all have to hate Ogier and call him a whinger... even when Loeb says he's right.

Nice to see Ogier agreeing with my view that qualifying was the best solution.

[Jack4688`]

Hahahaha, does he agree with you personally Eddie? :D

Loeb has a point but then speaks total bollocks by comparing it to a 100m sprint - a sport which inherently is on equal track conditions, something that rallying can never be.

[stefanvv]

Loeb has a point but then speaks total bollocks by comparing it to a 100m sprint - a sport which inherently is on equal track conditions, something that rallying can never be.

Track yes, but what if there is a side wind, then the athletes from aside will keep others from it. But this is one of the things You can't avoid, it's not like to mount power vents there on purpose to disadvantage some of them, right? Who decides who will run on which track number in such case, and what influence it'll have upon the whole race and each individual performance?

[GravelBen]

Nice to see Ogier agreeing with my view that qualifying was the best solution.

Ogier agrees with whatever view Ogier thinks will result in Ogier winning the most. ;)

[Mirek]

Yes, but no-one says anything as all have to hate Ogier and call him a whinger... even when Loeb says he's right.

Nice to see Ogier agreeing with my view that qualifying was the best solution.

I haven't noticed anybody here who would argue that current rules are fair. The point is that there are plenty of reasons why fair rules are often unwelcomed from the promoter and that under certain conditions fair rules can easily kill the marketing value of said championship which is something what naturally no rulling body wants.

By the way handicaps are British invention already from 18th century horse racing ;)

[stefanvv]

The point is that there are plenty of reasons why fair rules are often unwelcomed from the promoter and that under certain conditions fair rules can easily kill the marketing value of said championship which is something what naturally no rulling body wants.

So, what are they promoting? The sport or artificial competition (well, "competition" term is quite over estimated)? I know "everybody must be happy" = socialism/communism, is the best social order in theory, but we all know already it doesn't work in practice.

BTW, I wonder how much 2017 cars will devaluate this problem. I think there will be in some degree, but how much I guess we just have to wait and see.

[Mirek]

So, what are they promoting? The sport or artificial competition (well, "competition" term is quite over estimated)?

I only told You how it is. You won't change it by writting anything on the internet.


I know "everybody must be happy" = socialism/communism, is the best orden social in theory, but we all know already it doesn't work in practise.

It has totally nothing to do with Your socialism/communism thinking. This idea first appeared in heavily capitalistic society of Great Britain during the industiral revolution and it appeared in the circles of the richest class of people. Since then it's been used in various forms for 300 years. Personally I wouldn't dare to say that something doesn't work in practise if it's been used for three centuries.


BTW, I wonder how much 2017 cars will devaluate this problem. I think there will be in some degree, but how much I guess we just have to wait and see.

2017 cars will change nothing on the general principles. They give everybody a new starting pointing or a new motivation if You want to call it like that. If no results come in two-three years the unsuccessful team is going to leave unless some new motivation is introduced. By result I don't mean only sporting results but also economical/marketing results which can't be precisely evaluated by any external beholder.

[leighton323]

I just find it crazy how in circuit racing to handicap cars they use added weight systems and in rallying we have a such a perfect natural system that is already embedded and a part of the sport since its very beginning in that the fastest seeded driver starts first. And here people are trying to say it's creating artifical handicap when it's the way it always has been. But in saying that I do think the best solution or compromise in this case is the Qualifying stage. Or that the number 1 seed only opens the rally on the first day. With no splits in the cars now slowing down in the stage to gain a better road order is near impossible. Sport will never be 100% fair and that's why we love it. It's about overcoming the challenges that are put in front of you.

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

[Jack4688`]

I don't profess to know what the solution is but, as you say, there is a natural handicap in rallying i.e. the road conditions. Ogier may be right about how much the handicap is placed on the championship leader (though, like a true champion, he is arrogant enough to say it is him personally who is handicapped), but why complain about leading the championship and having to deal with worse conditions?

Someone has to drive first on the road and it just seems illogical to say "you've won the first couple rounds, now we're giving you further advantage". In circuit racing you have the age old problem of the fastest car qualifying first and therefore likely leading from the front but at least that pole posiition has to be earned at each race weekend.

[dodge33cymru]

He's not saying he should run at the back though, unless I've missed something; qualifying was fine, but as you say that meant the road position was earned. I'm sure he'd be fine with first day in championship order and that seems like the fairest way, although personally I'd prefer it to just go back to seedings.

[Barreis]

Do we need another driver who wins another 9 championships in the row?! I don't think so. With fair rules Ogier is another decade winner. It's not about rules, it's about wrong choose of drivers when they can not win against Ogier any other way then with stupid rules. So it can stay this way (2 days of cleaning) or they can put weight balast, I don't care. Let it be interesting...

[N.O.T]

Do we need another driver who wins another 9 championships in the row?! I don't think so. With fair rules Ogier is another decade winner. It's not about rules, it's about wrong choose of drivers when they can not win against Ogier any other way then with stupid rules. So it can stay this way (2 days of cleaning) or they can put weight balast, I don't care. Let it be interesting...

I prefer to see the best driver win even if it is for 10 or 20 years in a row rather than see masterless dogs do it.

[AndyRAC]

I want to see the best driver win – if that means he wins all the time - then TOUGH!!
It’s up to the others to raise their game.
Why do motorsport series think handicapping is the solution? If it’s because they fear interest will drop then the sport has already got a problem – and rules tinkering is not the solution. It’s yet another short term fix…….

Qualifying was the ‘least worst’ solution – but Ogier still won, which is not what they want.

Something is wrong when you start an event, and you know the best driver is unlikely to win because he’s handicapped by running first on the road on dry, dusty gravel for two days.

It’s no good comparing it to the old days because the events back then were far longer & tougher; time lost could be made up in the next few days; in modern sprint events there’s no chance, especially with the ridiculously short final Sunday.

[stefanvv]

Let it be interesting...

I find it poor show. May be people not so interested in the sport finds it interesting to have different winners, but the spectacle watching speed is suffering.

QS is fine, opening the road first day is fine covering 30-40% of the rally (as soon they run reverse next days), but opening the road 80% of the rally is ridiculous.

[leighton323]

Do we need another driver who wins another 9 championships in the row?! I don't think so. With fair rules Ogier is another decade winner. It's not about rules, it's about wrong choose of drivers when they can not win against Ogier any other way then with stupid rules. So it can stay this way (2 days of cleaning) or they can put weight balast, I don't care. Let it be interesting...
The rules shouldn't be there to hinder Ogier's performance, he is the best currently and deserves to carry the number 1 on his car. It should be there because that is the way rallying is.

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

[Franky]

Here's a provocative question with emphasis on the second part. Why should we favor the fastest and disfavor the slower ones?

[KiwiWRCfan]

Here is an alternative way of thinking.
How about change the order of rallies not the running order
The current rallies go Monte, Snow, Altitude, Gravel, Gravel Gravel Gravel Gravel Asphalt Asphalt Asphalt Mixed Gravel Gravel
Imagine if rallies went Monte, Snow, Altitude, Gravel, Gravel Asphalt Gravel Asphalt Gravel Mixed Gravel Asphalth Gravel Gravel
Generally first on road is advantage on asphalt and disadvantage on gravel. Would mixing up order of events to alternate advantage disadvantage from road position create a much more interesting and fairer season without needing to change start order
I realize this is just wild thinking and tehre may be many reason why it could

[Jack4688`]

Was seeding per event how they did it up until the late '90s? I seem to remember Sainz and McRae complaining about running order in Australia around '98-'99

[Andre Oliveira]

Colin Clark twitter

3 car teams for 2017. My predictions. @Petter_Solberg @GronholmM will win rallies. Maybe even Marko and Tommi. Portugal will be interesting

@planetemarcus @Petter_Solberg @GronholmM they will be in demand next year

[EightGear]

Colin Clark twitter

3 car teams for 2017. My predictions. @Petter_Solberg @GronholmM will win rallies. Maybe even Marko and Tommi. Portugal will be interesting

@planetemarcus @Petter_Solberg @GronholmM they will be in demand next year


Colin should stop smoking whatever he is smoking.

[GigiGalliNo1]

And stop drinking what ever he's drinking!

[leighton323]

Colin should stop smoking whatever he is smoking.

Agreed. He's got to be taking the piss surely.

[RS]

There are more than enough capable drivers around without having to go searching the retirement homes.

[Martins Tolks]

Colin should get rid of that addiction to pink things to start with. And maybe try to think before posting.

[JAM]

So, what are they promoting? The sport or artificial competition (well, "competition" term is quite over estimated)? I know "everybody must be happy" = socialism/communism, is the best social order in theory, but we all know already it doesn't work in practice.

BTW, I wonder how much 2017 cars will devaluate this problem. I think there will be in some degree, but how much I guess we just have to wait and see.

In terms of interest of the championship there not much to argue against the rule.

With the rule we had 3 differente winners on the last 3 rallyes. Without the rule we would had 3 more rallyes won by Ogier.

There's not much to discuss about how the rule is good to the interest of the championship

In the rally of Portugal i talked with a lot of people form the WRC about that, and no one (except Capito, Ogier and some ) said that the rule is bad to the WRC. Even the old ones as Ari Vatanen who said the WRC needs new winners e new fights to be interesting.

No one said that purely in sport matters the rule is fair, but a balance is needed, and what we have is better than Ogier winning all the rallyes. Not perfect, but better.

[AL14]

It's inevitable that someone try to level up a bit the situation. But these rules have gone too far.
Bring back 2014. Ogier didn't won every rally back then, we were all happy.

And don't forget that the last 4-5 rallys are good for the driver who open the road, which makes things even worse.

[er88]

The current rule of championship leader running first car for the first two days needs changing. Just get it back to championship leader running 1st car on the opening day and be done with it. Personally don't like the qualifying stage (although it's probably the fairest way) as I don't think it should be part of rallying

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Doon]

Championship leader runs 1st on day one. Day 2 and 3, rally order. That is proper rallying and how it should be.

The current rule is to make the championship seem more interesting, but we all know that Ogier should win every really.

[stefanvv]

Day 2 and 3, rally order.

Hmm no. I have bad memories about this.

[EstWRC]

Because then there were splits but anymore. Paddon's own words and i agree with him.

[JAM]

It's inevitable that someone try to level up a bit the situation. But these rules have gone too far.
Bring back 2014. Ogier didn't won every rally back then, we were all happy.


Mexico, Argentina and Portugal, if Ogier wouldn't be the first on the road, we had won all these.

So this year, we would had 5 in 5 for Ogier.

I wouldn't be happy with this.

I'm against to choose the road position, we should have a format that is fixed for all rallyes.

[AndyRAC]

Colin Clark twitter

3 car teams for 2017. My predictions. @Petter_Solberg @GronholmM will win rallies. Maybe even Marko and Tommi. Portugal will be interesting

@planetemarcus @Petter_Solberg @GronholmM they will be in demand next year

Thats utter madness. It's 2017, not 2007.....it wouldn't say much for the WRC if they all came back.

[AL14]

Mexico, Argentina and Portugal, if Ogier wouldn't be the first on the road, we had won all these.

So this year, we would had 5 in 5 for Ogier.

I wouldn't be happy with this.

I'm against to choose the road position, we should have a format that is fixed for all rallyes.

Only to precise that in 2014 positions were fixed. Me too I don't like quali format.

[Simmi]

Colin Clark twitter

3 car teams for 2017. My predictions. @Petter_Solberg @GronholmM will win rallies. Maybe even Marko and Tommi. Portugal will be interesting

@planetemarcus @Petter_Solberg @GronholmM they will be in demand next year

Driver lunacy aside - I wonder if Colin has heard that 3 car teams are confirmed?

[dimviii]

Although this weekend takes place the Rally of Sardinia 2016 and by lining up three vehicles there one would think that Volkswagen Motorsport is fully focused on this round of the World Rally Championship, the brand has been commissioned to remind us that has long decided to focus its efforts to prepare the 2017 season, leaving intuit on your Facebook page these days will test an advanced version of its new Volkswagen Polo R WRC.

According to the publication of Volkswagen Motorsport in the social network, camouflage decoration photo can be seen on Sunday in Baumholder, one of the most traditional sections of Rally Germany. It is hoped that in the logic absence of their race drivers the German mark again resort to Marcus Gronholm, who is carrying on his back a large part of vehicle development 2017.

Although it is common for brands to test their new vehicles after the dispute of a rally in order to make comparisons with stopwatches in hand, Volkswagen seems to have opted for the calendar inverse test: without going any further Autosprint published a few days ago the new Polo was rolling in Sardinia, alternating pilots from the German current World Rally Car and newly minted. The Italian weekly ventured to announce that the difference between the two is around two tenths per kilometer in Italian special as Terranova, Monte Olia and San Giacomo.

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/2016/06/10/volkswagen-divide-esfuerzos-este-fin-de-semana/

[Rally Power]

It's not Rally not even real racing, but Higgins time attack on Man TT circuit was the first time Prodrive worked for Subaru since their WRC leave (this time via Subaru USA).

Full report and videos on Mark's amazing new record (207.17km/h average speed, if I didn't mess conversion) from Autocar:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/Subaru-Isle-of-Man-video-TT-record-2016?utm_content=buffer70260&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[Mirek]

John McGuiness still 32 seconds faster ;)

[N.O.T]

John McGuiness still 32 seconds faster ;)

And Dunlop 42...

http://i.imgur.com/ZEoL1U4.jpg

[Mirek]

According to official webpage it's McGuiness who holds the record: http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database/TT-Records/Lap-Records.aspx

[N.O.T]

According to official webpage it's McGuiness who holds the record: http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database/TT-Records/Lap-Records.aspx

and according to the races that took place this past week its dunlop...but feel free to argue

[Mirek]

Thanks for correction, I haven't noticed that. Sorry

[N.O.T]

you are forgiven.

[Jack4688`]

Ian Hutchinson broke the record (from a standing start!) at the superbike race, the first race of this year's event then a few seconds later Michael Dunlop broke it again, doing the first sub 17 minute lap and I believe in the senior TT on friday (superbike race 2, but under a different name) did the first 134mph average lap. Ian Hutchinson also did a lap on the superstock bike that beat John McGuiness' old outright lap record.

[N.O.T]

Ian Hutchinson broke the record (from a standing start!) at the superbike race, the first race of this year's event then a few seconds later Michael Dunlop broke it again, doing the first sub 17 minute lap and I believe in the senior TT on friday (superbike race 2, but under a different name) did the first 134mph average lap. Ian Hutchinson also did a lap on the superstock bike that beat John McGuiness' old outright lap record.

Dunlops record is 133.964mph not 134 !!! In the first superbike race Dunlop broke the outright record of Mcguinness from a standing start with 133.369 and then again on lap 2 with 133.393... Hutchinsons record was 132.892 on his standing start lap.

[N.O.T]

For your eyes only infidels...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nlzxR6lN7Q

[KiwiWRCfan]

in a few minutes time Becs Williams interview with PJ Johnson the Chairman of Rally NZ will be replayed on WRC live radio
Tune in now to hear how about how the NZ bid is progressing and what the Kiwis have planned for a 2018 WRC return to NZ http://www.wrc.com/live-ticker/live_popup_radio.html

[Jack4688`]

Dunlops record is 133.964mph not 134 !!! In the first superbike race Dunlop broke the outright record of Mcguinness from a standing start with 133.369 and then again on lap 2 with 133.393... Hutchinsons record was 132.892 on his standing start lap.

My mistake, here's a good article on the technical details of the car http://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/secrets-of-subarus-iom-tt-record-car/34282

600hp version of a prodrive WRC engine...

[Jack4688`]

http://www.crash.net/wrc/race-report/231215/1/morale-boosting-victory-for-neuville-in-sardinia.html#S54miyRFbjEbuBKW.99


Martin Prokop ended up 11th, but after being given a 5-minute penalty at the start remained deeply unhappy: “This is my favourite rally of the year but from the beginning we struggled with the penalty decision. This is a nice rally but I will leave the championship now. I do not like the atmosphere and I am not happy with this situation.

No real loss...

[N.O.T]

http://www.crash.net/wrc/race-report/231215/1/morale-boosting-victory-for-neuville-in-sardinia.html#S54miyRFbjEbuBKW.99


good riddance...

[denkimi]

The current rule is to make the championship seem more interesting, but we all know that Ogier should win every really.

i'm not to sure about that.
there's much talk about ogier, but the most important thing i've noticed the last few rally's is that although latvalla doesn't have to clean the road, he hasn't been able to beat the hyundai's. this means that, or latvala has become a lot slower, or the hyundai's are on pace with the volkswagens.

[N.O.T]

i'm not to sure about that.
there's much talk about ogier, but the most important thing i've noticed the last few rally's is that although latvalla doesn't have to clean the road, he hasn't been able to beat the hyundai's. this means that, or latvala has become a lot slower, or the hyundai's are on pace with the volkswagens.

Hyundais are quite close but Latvala is always like that when he ufks up... he is slow on the next few events..... then fast..... then ufks again and so on....

[Eli]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124764/ma-to-make-wrc-debut-with-ostberg-team Ma in China

[JAM]

i'm not to sure about that.
there's much talk about ogier, but the most important thing i've noticed the last few rally's is that although latvalla doesn't have to clean the road, he hasn't been able to beat the hyundai's. this means that, or latvala has become a lot slower, or the hyundai's are on pace with the volkswagens.

Latvala won in Mexico, and in Argentina was leading when something broke and sent the car off the road.

In Portugal had problems, and in Sardinia was beat by Neuville with pure competition.

I think you are only right about Sardinia, the other three events he was fast.

[JAM]

Thats utter madness. It's 2017, not 2007.....it wouldn't say much for the WRC if they all came back.


Colin heard what Jost Capito said about the 3 car rule, and obviously tried to say something with so many non-sense as Capito. :D

[AL14]

Latvala won in Mexico, and in Argentina was leading when something broke and sent the car off the road.

In Portugal had problems, and in Sardinia was beat by Neuville with pure competition.

I think you are only right about Sardinia, the other three events he was fast.

Latvala is a crazy driver. I think he can't be a benchmark for any kind of reasoning.
I would rather compare their performances with Mikkelsen's

[jbmarcus21]

PRokop quits WRC after 5mn penalty in Sardegna => http://goo.gl/IR8d0y

[Mirek]

PRokop quits WRC after 5mn penalty in Sardegna => http://goo.gl/IR8d0y

It's not because of the penalty.

[PLuto]

PRokop quits WRC after 5mn penalty in Sardegna => http://goo.gl/IR8d0y

Article is wrong. For sure he is not leaving because of this 5 min penalty. This decision was made much more earlier. You can see it with his absence in Poland...

[jbmarcus21]

yes No Poland .. but maybe he wanted to drive other event ... . Prokop speak here the reason and confirm he's angry against penalty and he leaves.. https://www.facebook.com/MartinProkopOfficial/photos/a.318570601582668.63415.317216581718070/873824512723938/?type=3&theater

[Mirek]

Jeremie, he was speaking about leaving for a long time. He bought a circuit GT car, he is building Dakar car and during this season he endtered less than half of the WRC events. He may now try to use this penalty as an official reason to leave but it's hardly the real reason. Anyway I don't get the whole circus about the situation. His team made a mistake, got a penalty. Period. The Earth keeps rotating.

[jbmarcus21]

Ok Mirek..
Agree with u about official reason (penalty) to leave ;)

[Andre Oliveira]

But it helps cause he told that want FIA allow him drive the 2017 spec car recently.

[Andre Oliveira]

Ahoj lidi, jak to tedy je a co se děje? Sardinie nás jako každá jiná rally stála obrovské množství sil, času a zejména finančních prostředků. Celou soutěž jsme projeli z obrovským sebezapřením a pocitem křivdy, to zklamání z nesmyslného postihu bylo opravdu silné. Rally je však dá se říci celý můj život a přes to, že se nyní se budeme připravovat na Dakar, rally je pro mě stále disciplína číslo jedna a jsem tělem i duší soutěžák. Až jednou nastoupím do své svou opravdu poslední soutěže ve WRC, pojedu ji, jak se říká „v obleku“, se vztyčenou hlavou a s úsměvem, ne s nafouklou pusou a hlavou plnou myšlenek na vše ostatní kromě rally. Ano ještě se do šampionátu WRC vrátím, to můžu sobě, svému týmu a hlavně fanouškům slíbit, třeba to bude ještě tento rok, kdo ví. Auto a celý ansámbl okolo máme přeci jen parádně nachystán a secvičen. Teď budeme už jen z principu bojovat s FIA o stažení pětiminutového trestu, který je podle nás neoprávněný a křivdí nám. Chtěl bych poděkovat všem fanouškům, kteří fandí našemu počínání ve WRC a podporují nás i nyní, když nebojujeme jen na trati proti časomíře.
Zatím se mějte fajn, Martin.
P.S. Ještě si asi zajdu k zubaři nechat si zkontrolovat plomby ;)

Hi folks, what the hell is going on? Like avery other rally, Sardinia cost us a huge amount of energy, time and money. We did the whole race with extreme self-denial and feelings of injustice, the disappointment of senseless punishment was really strong. But rally is still my whole life, and despite the fact that now we will prepare everything for Dakar, rally is for me still the number one discipline and I am a rally driver with my body and soul. Once I start into my really last WRC race, I will do it with style and „in tuxedo“ , with head up and happy, not angry and with head full of ideas on everything other than rally. Yes I will get back to WRC, this is what I can promise to myself, my team and especially fans. Maybe it will be even this year, who knows. The car and everything around is ready, prepared and rehearsed. Now we will just on principle fight with FIA for the withdrawal of the five-minute penalty, which we believe is unauthorized and injustice against us. I would like to thank all the fans who cheer our actions in the WRC and support us even now, when we are not fighting just against the clock on special stages. Cheers Martin

[BicioWrc]

I was thinking about driver markets for next season...
about young guys i see about at same level with some pro and contra
Evans,Lappi,Suninen and Tideman...

maybe i will give an official car su Pontus, seems ready for this...i like Lappi too but he need to be more consistent.
Suninen maybe with highest potencial, Evans i think he will have other chance in m-sport...
So i go to Pontus till now:) also if next rallies will say more...

Other doubt...about citroen, maybe will decide too give the official C3 only to one between Breen and Lefebvre...in poland we will see who deserve more

[Eli]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124776/citroen-2017-car-on-target-after-aero-test and the next test will be in France

[seb_sh]

I was thinking about driver markets for next season...
about young guys i see about at same level with some pro and contra
Evans,Lappi,Suninen and Tideman...

maybe i will give an official car su Pontus, seems ready for this...i like Lappi too but he need to be more consistent.
Suninen maybe with highest potencial, Evans i think he will have other chance in m-sport...
So i go to Pontus till now:) also if next rallies will say more...

Other doubt...about citroen, maybe will decide too give the official C3 only to one between Breen and Lefebvre...in poland we will see who deserve more

The driver market is quiet because it's still early and people are waiting for Citroen's announcement. VW is full. Maybe after Sordo decides between Hyundai and Citroen things will get moving, but I think we will have to wait until December to know all the main drives for next year because Citroen can take their time and said they will not rush the driver decision. Also still interesting to see if Neuville got his head back in order or it was just a lucky rally.

[Jack4688`]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124776/citroen-2017-car-on-target-after-aero-test and the next test will be in France

Far too much bodywork on that thing

[Duvel]

Does anyone know which rally's wil stay - go - or enter next years calendar?

I really hope Sardinia will stay, hope it will be back in October like it was some years ago.
And wasn't it sead that Germany was about to move to an other region?

[BleAivano]

Does anyone know which rally's wil stay - go - or enter next years calendar?

I really hope Sardinia will stay, hope it will be back in October like it was some years ago.
And wasn't it sead that Germany was about to move to an other region?

Rally Sweden signed a new three year contract during this year's rally Sweden.

[AL14]

Does anyone know which rally's wil stay - go - or enter next years calendar?

I really hope Sardinia will stay, hope it will be back in October like it was some years ago.
And wasn't it sead that Germany was about to move to an other region?

No one knows yet. It seems something will change next year with so many new countries knocking at FIA's door.
Just some rumors about Italy and France being in danger if they do not go back in the mainland.

[AL14]

Ogier's son is born. Congratulation to him and mrs Keiser.

[AL14]

The legend tells that he has come out with his nose end first.

[b3637853]

No one knows yet. It seems something will change next year with so many new countries knocking at FIA's door.
Just some rumors about Italy and France being in danger if they do not go back in the mainland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_World_Rally_Championship

I guess according to references (which are David Evans articles) only Sweden, Mexico, Germany, GB and Australia have their spots for sure. I suppose Monte Carlo had to be there as well.

[dimviii]

The legend tells that he has come out with his nose end first.
BREAKING: Pending @fia homologation, @SebOgier likes 2 use this new feature on his #PoloRWRC.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck-0U8rXEAAWWLD.jpg

[Rallyper]

The legend tells that he has come out with his nose end first.

Very good fun! Tells me that even Seb O reads this forum.

[er88]

France/Corsica could probably be dropped, as Monte Carlo is basically the French's round anyway. Can't see Italy holding onto their round if it remains in Sardinia either, and maybe Poland might go to?

That would open up a few spaces for new rallies. I'd certainly love Greece, Sanremo and NZ to return, plus a possible event in Japan again, but no way that'll happen :(.

I guess an event in the middle east is on the cards, with Abu Dhabi most likely? And probably another round that has the best financial backing....

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Jack4688`]

I don't know if this was a big part of it but it felt like Poland rejoined the calendar on the back of Robert Kubica's new found popularity as a rally driver so I'd be interested to see if this year's event is anything like Rallye de France Alsace was the first year after Loeb's retirement - I'm assuming Kubica isn't making any WRC appearances this year, not even for Rajd Polski?

[EightGear]

Very good fun! Tells me that even Seb O reads this forum.
No.

[GigiGalliNo1]

That would open up a few spaces for new rallies. I'd certainly love Greece, Sanremo and NZ to return, plus a possible event in Japan again, but no way that'll happen :(.

I guess an event in the middle east is on the cards, with Abu Dhabi most likely? And probably another round that has the best financial backing....



Let's hope Poland and Corsica dropped.

NZ and Abu Dhabi in!!!