[WRC] News & rumours (part III)

[Rallyper]

Once Hyundai gave Juho a seat they must put efforts on him, no matter what. Sordo, we all knew his abilities by the time Hyundai choose other guys before him. Now they step on other leg. It´s not so polite in my way of thinking strategies. Juho have done the job good so far and needs more driving, that all. So why don´t they let him??

[Francis44]

If they were to be able to have a third car in Argentina Juho would have a seat there aswell, you have to understand Sordo has a lot more experience on Argentina, plus in a spanish speaking country having a spanish driver is alot more wise in marketing terms.

[Rallyper]

If they were to be able to have a third car in Argentina Juho would have a seat there aswell, you have to understand Sordo has a lot more experience on Argentina, plus in a spanish speaking country having a spanish driver is alot more wise in marketing terms.

Yeah, maybe they made that clear when hiring Juho (and Sordo). Relating to Juho´s performance in Portugal might be a rash conclution.

[Co-driven]

I don't if this is the rightnplace (and I don't know if I could start a new thread): Rally Argentina will also count as the second roumd of FIA Codasur Championship and second round of Argentine Championship.

Both events will only run on the first loop of Friday's and Saturday's stages, around 30 minutes after the last WRC2 competitor.

[dimviii]

Julian Porter ‏@The_Rally_Guru
For those of you who didn't see Portugal on ITV4 & hear what Kris Meeke said, here it is - "That's my career over Paul." So hope he's wrong.

[Rallyper]

There has been some crashes for the newcomers, but I think too that they all deserve to drive a whole season before we judge. MAybe even two.

[Plan9]

Citroen seem to have a soft spot for Kris (he is on the entry list for Argentina after all). He has done reasonably well for someone who did not know the last 2 events. When I went the the Australian event last year the whole service park was awash with rumors that Kris was done for after he had 2 rolls. But that did not prove to be the case. As with Rallyper I also think the newcomers need a season or 2 to get more experience.

[Lundefaret]

Citroen seem to have a soft spot for Kris (he is on the entry list for Argentina after all). He has done reasonably well for someone who did not know the last 2 events. When I went the the Australian event last year the whole service park was awash with rumors that Kris was done for after he had 2 rolls. But that did not prove to be the case. As with Rallyper I also think the newcomers need a season or 2 to get more experience.

Dont forget that Citroëns WRC team is a part of the marketing department. Kris Meeke is a VERY likable caracter, always with good quotes in the stage end interviews, and creating headlines with his spectacular offs. I think there also is a marketing apsect also in keeping him in the team.

[Andre Oliveira]

Bouffier (1 event) have more points that Meeke, Prokop too... I like Meeke but the season are starting bad :(

[stefanvv]

I think there is too much drama about this. Of course he will drive the whole season, he is Citroen's 1st driver fater all. I don't know his aims for the season though and he seems very dissapointed now, but wasn't Nagle sick or something in Portugal and that might turned things bad?
So far his carrer in WRC is not so successful, but he has hardly full season (12-13 Rallies) for several years, right?

[Prisoner Monkeys]

And yet there comes a point where that stops being a defence and starts sounding like an excuse. How many times does he have to make a mistake before Citroen pull the plug? Everyone says he really is talented and that his results don't show it. I could perhaps understand that if he was being let down by reliability, but he's constantly making errors of his own. In that case, his results *do* reflect his talent.

The only problem facing Citroen is that he is the best of a bad bunch. If they let him go, then there isn't really any ready replacement, unless they want to take Novikov or Tanak for the rest of the season and see who might have potential in the WRC-2 or -3 for a 2015 drive.

[stefanvv]

And yet there comes a point where that stops being a defence and starts sounding like an excuse.

A "champion" wouldn't need neither of them. If Meeke feels himself like such (at least I didn't noticed him making those), he must continue his way, if it is WRC crown his higher ambition, then probably some things can be polished with proper direction. WRC is not only Citroen after all, supposing they are so dissapointed, but same goes for any other driver after Loeb, except Ogier.

[semsem]

The in-car footage of Kris Meeke going off the road in Portugal was very interesting.

Kris may have told Paul Nagle, as he went off the road, that his career was over, but I do not think Kris fully understands the strength of his position. He is the number one driver in Citroen's team, and Citroen are contracted through their championship registration to run Kris on ten of the thirteen rounds of the WRC this year. It is Mads Ostberg that can be freely replaced ... Citroen cannot just "sack" Kris!

[Francis44]

I think the biggest question here is will Citroen stay after the end of this year?!

Kris must show some consistency aswell if he wants to continue in the championship, Otsberg can easily be picked up since he is fast and consistent and that makes a great number 2 for any team, Meeke on the other hand must be aware that this season may be his only chance to estabilish himself as a worthy official driver.
It also depends aswell on how things will be next year, will Ford come back, will citroen stay?

[N.O.T]

The in-car footage of Kris Meeke going off the road in Portugal was very interesting.

Kris may have told Paul Nagle, as he went off the road, that his career was over, but I do not think Kris fully understands the strength of his position. He is the number one driver in Citroen's team, and Citroen are contracted through their championship registration to run Kris on ten of the thirteen rounds of the WRC this year. It is Mads Ostberg that can be freely replaced ... Citroen cannot just "sack" Kris!

Do you realise that by "career" most people consider something a bit more than a year ???

[dimviii]

about Meeke

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/april/meeke-all-time-low/page/1274--12-12-.html

[stefanvv]

Pace notes problem on second loop, hmm doesn't make much sense to me. If they've corrected it, there is something wrong with that correction. Anyway bad 3 of 4 Rallies is not reason for despair, Ogier is going to be champion again anyway.

[rallyfun]

The in-car footage of Kris Meeke going off the road in Portugal was very interesting.

It is Mads Ostberg that can be freely replaced ... Citroen cannot just "sack" Kris!

It would be Khalid's decision not Citroen's

[Zeakiwi]

Are there spare Citroen WRCs to try Bouffier (or someone else) on a few events?

[jonkka]

He is the number one driver in Citroen's team, and Citroen are contracted through their championship registration to run Kris on ten of the thirteen rounds of the WRC this year. It is Mads Ostberg that can be freely replaced ... Citroen cannot just "sack" Kris!

So I thought too, but here is an excerpt from current rules:

7.2.6 Must inform the FIA of the names of the drivers entered to score points in each rally before the closing date of entries of the rally concerned. At least one driver must be nominated for a minimum of 10 rallies in any championship year.

So, no requirement to name the driver (that will do the 10 events) beforehand. They can sack Meeke and run Ostberg for ten rallies to satisfy the rules (no replacement can as there is only nine rounds left).

[Zeakiwi]

If they promote Meeke to the full time testing role, they could try two young guys against each other on the same event.

[pantealex]

www.rallyargentina.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Entry-List-RA14.pdf

40 entries for Argentina, but only 11 WRC

many many "spelling mistakes" at the list

[vino_93]

thank to Chile and Paraguay to still run FIA homologated cars ...

[Micke_VOC]

Pace notes problem on second loop, hmm doesn't make much sense to me. If they've corrected it, there is something wrong with that correction. Anyway bad 3 of 4 Rallies is not reason for despair, Ogier is going to be champion again anyway.

I think they (spectators or crew) slowed him down there first loop because Evens off ..

[Eli]

http://www.irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00006441&15

[jbmarcus21]

Then, Hyundai Test Days Video with Hayden Paddon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS6xMxVk-m4

[Eli]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113477

[MikeD]

If they promote Meeke to the full time testing role, they could try two young guys against each other on the same event.

Honestly, I don't think Citroën care too much about their WRC project at the moment. They had a massively good start to their WTCC campaign and there is honestly no reason for them to be in the WRC anymore.

Crash Meeke is rubbish and should be replaced by Bouffier to try something new. I have a feeling that Argentina will be Meekes last event for the team. Østberg is doing quite well, but Citroën's main problem is that Ogier will dominate the sport for years to come and there are no drivers good enough to give him a run for his money, unless FIA once again try all their rule tricks like they did for M-Sport to make Hirvonen a "fake" contender with favorable road positions and almost equal points for 2nd and 1st place in the WRC events.

I think Citroën kind of thought that it would be okay to run in the WRC half-hearted as Abu Dhabi Tourism pay all the bills, but this half-hearted commitment is not good for their brand, and not good for the sport either. I hope they will leave the WRC at the end of the year because this isn't good for anybody.

Let the other PSA brand Peugeot give it a try now that PSA has secured a massive chinese investment. That has removed the companys fear of a collaps. Furthermore, Peugeot trditionally is less focussed on being "french" as their export markets are quite different from Citroëns, so they might be able to enter with a different philosophy and find a setup that can beat VW and Ogier.

[litifeta]

I expect we will hear over the next month that Hyundai have ditched all their test drivers from last year finally. Bouffier is gone, Juho looks like he is out, and I am expecting Atko to also hear bad news.

[SubaruNorway]

Those WTCC races must have been the most boring races I've ever witnessed, the most exiting thing was watching Tom Coronel making a fool of himself blaming the other guy when he was the one that drove into him. Doubt Loeb will find it interesting very long.

[seb_sh]

Honestly, I don't think Citroën care too much about their WRC project at the moment. They had a massively good start to their WTCC campaign and there is honestly no reason for them to be in the WRC anymore.

[...]

I think Citroën kind of thought that it would be okay to run in the WRC half-hearted as Abu Dhabi Tourism pay all the bills, but this half-hearted commitment is not good for their brand, and not good for the sport either. I hope they will leave the WRC at the end of the year because this isn't good for anybody.

Let the other PSA brand Peugeot give it a try now that PSA has secured a massive chinese investment. That has removed the companys fear of a collaps. Furthermore, Peugeot trditionally is less focussed on being "french" as their export markets are quite different from Citroëns, so they might be able to enter with a different philosophy and find a setup that can beat VW and Ogier.

While I agree Citroen's half heartened effort does not put them in a good light I disagree it would be better for the sport if they retired. The car is still competitive and being there means two more factory drives. If they retired the championship would be even more unbalanced toward VW. If getting podiums is enough for them then I definitely prefer guys like Ostberg having a decent drive. Citroen retiring would not automatically mean Peugeot coming in to replace them.

Peugeot coming back with a stronger effort would be nice indeed, however there's not certain sign of that at the moment, it depends a lot on the new technical regulations probably, so far they're promoting their R5 and maybe if the new tech regs are similar to that then there's a better chance.

[Francis44]

I think Peugeot will replace Citroen in the championship sooner than later. In the last couple of months we have seen an huge effort from Peugeot on offroad motorsport in general.

First they introduce the 208 R5, which looks competitive out of the box, and later they unveil their Dakar project, which leads me to believe that their motorsport budget is far from being small.

Maybe Peugeot left endurance circuit to focus entirely on rally and Dakar, and they will leave the circuits for Citroen.

To me Citroen cars were always the more "exclusive" side of PSA's technology, and circuits may suit their market's better. Peugeot was and still is in my heart that little crazy brother of Citroen, moche more extreme and rebelious. Peugeot is in my opinion much more suited for extreme sports such as rally and off-road.

[MikeD]

I think Peugeot will replace Citroen in the championship sooner than later. In the last couple of months we have seen an huge effort from Peugeot on offroad motorsport in general.

First they introduce the 208 R5, which looks competitive out of the box, and later they unveil their Dakar project, which leads me to believe that their motorsport budget is far from being small.

Maybe Peugeot left endurance circuit to focus entirely on rally and Dakar, and they will leave the circuits for Citroen.

To me Citroen cars were always the more "exclusive" side of PSA's technology, and circuits may suit there market's better. Peugeot was and still is in my heart that little crazy brother of Citroen, moche more extreme and rebelious. Peugeot is in my opinion mcuh more suitedited for extreme sports such as rally and off-road.

I agree.

PS: It's Citroën that's the smaller company of the two, so they would be the "little brother".

But one thing that's important to notice is that Citroën wanted to enter WTCC because of the global exposure to the right markets. For PSA it's still an issue that WRC is so focused on low growth (or even recession) countries in Europe. Only 3 rallies are outside Europe where Australis is one of them ... but it has no relevance to PSA. Mexico is good for PSA but Argentina isn't. The country has been in recession for 15 years or so because the two corrupt Kirchner idiots have ruined any chance of growth. Instead they steal foreign companies and make them goverend by the state (ref. to Repsol).
It's quite insane that WRC doesn't have a single round in Asia IMO. That might prevent Peugeot from entering...

PS: Please also notice that according to very reliable sources then both KIA and Alfa Romeo will join WTCC next year. That will give the series 6 manufacturers...

[Francis44]

I agree.

PS: It's Citroën that's the smaller company of the two, so they would be the "little brother".

But one thing that's important to notice is that Citroën wanted to enter WTCC because of the global exposure to the right markets. For PSA it's still an issue that WRC is so focused on low growth (or even recession) countries in Europe. Only 3 rallies are outside Europe where Australis is one of them ... but it has no relevance to PSA. Mexico is good for PSA but Argentina isn't. The country has been in recession for 15 years or so because the two corrupt Kirchner idiots have ruined any chance of growth. Instead they steal foreign companies and make them goverend by the state (ref. to Repsol).
It's quite insane that WRC doesn't have a single round in Asia IMO. That might prevent Peugeot from entering...

PS: Please also notice that according to very reliable sources then both KIA and Alfa Romeo will join WTCC next year. That will give the series 6 manufacturers...

The championship already had a round in Japan, and I remember hearing that China was also trying to host a candidate round. I also agree that there should be a rally thereabouts

Other thing to take in consideration is that European markets will not be in recession forever, the periods after a big recession are always good for business. I am sure PSA will want to take advantage of that. Is Argentina not an importante market for Citroen? The fact that they took Loeb there last year might suggest otherwise.

We will see how things stand in the next couple of years. I agree that the biggest mistake in the calendar is the missing an Asia round, other than that I do not see any interest in taking the championship to any other place.

Im curious to see what studies have those brands entering WTCC read to conclude the championship is good for marketing, data I have seen suggest WTCC is far from being a marketing powerhouse.

[rallyfiend]

I agree.

PS: It's Citroën that's the smaller company of the two, so they would be the "little brother".

But one thing that's important to notice is that Citroën wanted to enter WTCC because of the global exposure to the right markets. For PSA it's still an issue that WRC is so focused on low growth (or even recession) countries in Europe. Only 3 rallies are outside Europe where Australis is one of them ... but it has no relevance to PSA. Mexico is good for PSA but Argentina isn't. The country has been in recession for 15 years or so because the two corrupt Kirchner idiots have ruined any chance of growth. Instead they steal foreign companies and make them goverend by the state (ref. to Repsol).
It's quite insane that WRC doesn't have a single round in Asia IMO. That might prevent Peugeot from entering...

PS: Please also notice that according to very reliable sources then both KIA and Alfa Romeo will join WTCC next year. That will give the series 6 manufacturers...

Citroen chose to enter WTCC to keep hold of Loeb, and it was the only form of circuit racing they could realistically enter with their cars.

Argentina is a massive market for both Citroen and Peugeot. It's a big 'tick' on the WRC for them.

OH, and WTCC only has 3 manufacturers in it at the moment - Lada, Honda and now Citroen.

Chevy and Seat are privately run operations, and i don't think BMW even has a new generation car available....

[vino_93]

Africa is the next big thing ... the car market has a lof of potential, and nothing is done there. Moreover people are big fan of motorsport, and especially rally there. And it's the best place to promote rally car ... WRC should come back there.

[MikeD]

OH, and WTCC only has 3 manufacturers in it at the moment - Lada, Honda and now Citroen.

+ Alfa Romeo and KIA that will join next year.



Chevy and Seat are privately run operations, and i don't think BMW even has a new generation car available....


The 6 RML run Chevrolet's are TC1 spec and I didn't count BMW and SEAT as they are old non-factory backed spec in TC2.


Argentina is a massive market for both Citroen and Peugeot. It's a big 'tick' on the WRC for them.

No doubt it's one of their better markets, but it's not that massive, simply because there are 'only' 41 mio people living in Argentina ... there is 1.35 billion living in China. Citroën did say at the launch of their WTCC campaign that the fact that WTCC has 2 races in China (1 in mainland and 1 in Macau) were the most important thing for switching.

[MikeD]

The championship already had a round in Japan, and I remember hearing that China was also trying to host a candidate round. I also agree that there should be a rally thereabouts

It's not Japan that they are interested in. The fact that they sell more diapers (Source: Unilever & P&G) to old people in Japan than to babies say all about how non-interesting that country is. It's China, South Korea, India, Vietnam, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar etc. that are interesting from a marketing point of view. According to the OECD Asia as a region will grow economically the most over the next 20 years.

This documentary - which I think is brilliant - tells you why it's Asia that's interesting and why WRC are in all the wrong places.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz_kn45qIvI

[Zeakiwi]

Dong Feng are getting involved with PSA. I wonder if DF will get Peugeot Sport to make a Dakar race truck for them.
http://autonews.gasgoo.com/china-news/dongfeng-invests-into-800-million-euros-into-psa-140415.shtml

I would expect World Rally cross to go (in the future) someplace like China(a stadium with controlled conditions) - where all the cars and equipment can be shifted with a one or two plane airlift.(like the aussie v8s have done to Texas or to the Middle East)

[KiwiWRCfan]

And here is a recent BBC article on PSA recovery plans for Citroen and Peugeot http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27020021

[Barreis]

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/april/citroen-commit/page/1334--12-12-.html

[Eli]

http://www.rallyemotion.it/9119_wrc-montecarlo-cambia-data-nuova-sede-portogallo/

[Barreis]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113622

[litifeta]

. Only 3 rallies are outside Europe where Australis is one of them ... but it has no relevance to PSA.

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but it's wrong. PSA are going hard trying to keep Renault from taking over the lead as the best selling French car in Australia. On the back of marketing from Mark Webber, Renault increased its market share by 37%, and is the second biggest Renault market in the world.

PSA recognise their fleet has been 'on the nose' with Australians for years and are ramping up marketing to achieve a 25% growth.

Asia Pacific is a difficult region to do business in. The roads and weather are harsh. And the Asian car makers rule the roost.

[MikeD]

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but it's wrong.

No it isn't (It's my job and I have access to a lot more info about this than you do). You are just looking at the numbers the wrong way. Look at volume instead of percentages. Citroën sold app. 1600-1800 cars in Australia last year, and yes it's correct that it's a sales-increase in percentages, but what Citroën in targeting in yearly sales in China is 250.000 - 300.000. That should give you an indication how unimportant Australia are in terms of overall sales.

So it's good for Citroën that they have increased sales in Australia, but in terms of revenue it's not an important market compared with the market where Citroën have their future focus .... and in the end why they decided to focus on WTCC instead of WRC.

[litifeta]

The company I work distributes PSA throughout Asia. I can promise you we look at our markets strategically, not individually or by brand. Sales in China and sales in Australia are both important to us. Australia serves as the base for the development of our processes, methods, and systems. Each country has something to offer. You might also like to check the location of PSA factories around the world, and see what PSA has from India through to Japan.

You may also be surprised to know that Australia gets lots of events, not because it is a great host, but because the wealthy Asian middle classes prefer to have the excuse to travel to Australia, rather than watch something on their own soil.

The Asia Pacific is nothing like Europe. Nothinng is what is seems on face value, and there are lots of mysterious relationships.

[AndyRAC]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113642


Ah, disaster averted....... for now.

I'm not totally sure if each side really knows what it wants - and if it is deliverable. With the formation of a FiA RallyX series, the WRC should be trying to make itself different from that sport. So longer, tougher events.

[Eli]

http://www.rally.it/rallye-di-monte-carlo-fino-al-2020/

[KiwiWRCfan]

Rally Australia have announced details of the Hyundai Super Special Stage. It will be located adjacent to the Service Park. It will be the 3rd service park and 3rd special stage location in 3 editions of Rally Australia in Coffs Harbour.
It appears spectators will have much better viewing options than the 2011 "jetty" Super Special Stage when cars were out of sight more than they were in sight. The course looks like it will be much better challenge for drivers than 2013 "Brelsford Park Velodrome" Super special. The new SSS will include several jumps.
In a change from 2011 and 2013 when the rally opened with 2 x SSS's on Thursday night. Organisers are only talking about SSS being used Friday & Saturday night. It would seem 2014 Rally Oz will open with proper special stages on the Friday morning rather than SSS's as in previous years.

http://www.rallyaustralia.com.au/hyundai-super-special-stage-new-challenge-drivers/

[dimviii]

No Novikov at Finland
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2014/04/29/novikov-startet-nicht-in-finnland/index.html

[makinen_fan]

Oh dear... Capito and promoter still insist on final day shootout...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113703

The potential for a single-stage shoot-out to decide overall positions on World Rally Championship rounds is under discussion again, with a decision expected in September.


The plan to radically revise the format of WRC rounds, first talked about 12 months ago, was a centre point of the meeting between manufacturers and the WRC Promoter firm last week.


The need for change to the final day of rallies is one of the areas where the two parties are completely aligned.


"This is an open discussion at the moment," said WRC Promoter chief Oliver Ciesla, "but the intention is to increase the drama and increase the attractiveness of this decisive final moment of each rally - and to develop a media moment which leads us to a new level of audience.


"We are talking with all stakeholders in order to find out how that format will be developed to fulfill the needs of what the WRC is; the needs of the audience to create more drama and to make it fair in the eyes of the sporting participants."


Ciesla said change would not be coming before the start of next season.


"The intention is to change for next year," he said. "This is a creative process to find the solution. We are taking input from all sides and we then try to convert it and amalgamate it into the current format for implementation next year.


"We do not expect these changes to come before Monte Carlo 2015.


Archive opinion: Radical change is WRC's only hope


"All proposals have to be made for September's World Motor Sport Council meeting. After that meeting, we could be in a position to make some amendments public. And, for some of the rallies early in 2015, changes could come at too short notice, so there would be a transition period."


Volkswagen's Jost Capito was one of the original architects of the plan and remains committed to it.


"For the general public, we are still in favour of the proposal we put forward of two long days of the rally followed by a Sunday with a final shootout with the top 10 fighting out their positions on one stage - where they can win or lose only one position," he said.


"This could be put in a one-hour television programme, which everybody would understand and is exciting for everybody involved.


"It's also very important for the manufacturers that this kind of programme could be understood by those people who are not the hardcore rally fans - this would help to bring them into our sport."

[Rallyper]

Time to put on those T-shirts from last year again!!

[AndyRAC]

It's time to wonder if RedBull actually understand the WRC......

Whats worse is the people who think its a good idea. Utterly ridiculous.

[janvanvurpa]

Fawking idiots.

The sad state of 4 paid drivers, only maybe 2 capable of winning, 30 car entry fields, spectators fleeing, almost all stems from people listening to Media Types...especially media types with megalomania and delusions of grandeur.
I am generally not an advocate of violence but not dogmatic in anything.
Somebody, somebody with an empty warehouse and some chains and special tools needs to get the Media Wh***s, chain them down and then beat them bloody and senseless---the old break them down then when they are physically and mentally jelly, then bring them back and say "Your job is to make a story of what is THERE, in this case rally---an event which combines speed with endurance and the need for teamwork, and flexibility---so spot thinking your promotional ideas can be over laid on everything.....or these "discussions" will continue...Go to America and advise them what to do with their "Globular Wally Closs", they have no idea what they're doing so they'll welcome your overblown-make-everything-for-the-ignorant-fawks-gawking-at-a-TV ideas.." Then WHAM! WHAM! a couple of blows to sharpen his concentration--"Do you understand endurance now?" WHAM! across the chops "Understand your role---promotion---not deciding direction."

Ahh in a perfect world.
In case you can't guess I am sick of stupid, moronic, air-headed advertising ass-wipes thinking they know what active motorsport people "need".
Fawkin morons.

[Allyc85]

Pathetic idea!! Hate it with a passion!

If cars driving past dosn't interest people, how the bloody hell is that going to make them suddenly watch?! I like the current cars, but Fiestas etc don't interest the casual fan, so maybe looking at changes to that would help make the WRC popular again?

And they can shove the idea for 2 day events up their arses too! If people can watch boring "sports" like cricket for 5 days, then 3 day events are more than fine!

[AndyRAC]

I saw somebody post something on Twitter (it may have been RallyTravel); it's like deciding the 3 week Tour de France with a 100m sprint on the final day.

I've compared it to deciding Le Mans in the last 10 mins.... fastest lap wins, despite the 2nd car being 3 laps down.....

[RAS007]

I saw somebody post something on Twitter (it may have been RallyTravel); it's like deciding the 3 week Tour de France with a 100m sprint on the final day.

I've compared it to deciding Le Mans in the last 10 mins.... fastest lap wins, despite the 2nd car being 3 laps down.....


Agreed. This is fucking farcical. Why not just go all the way and make every rally only one stage long? Capito, shove it up your ass.

[Barreis]

This guys know nothing about rally, only good menagers...

[Sulland]

So is the plan to have all the cars at half speed for 20 ss, to save the car, and then go for it on the last one?

[N.O.T]

So is the plan to have all the cars at half speed for 20 ss, to save the car, and then go for it on the last one?

you can only fight for the spot ahead of you, so they wish that the 2 days of rallying will not be just cruising... i do not like the concept but it is not entirely flawed, definatelly different from what we are used to and contrary to the philosophy of rallying but the thing is that the final day will be full of action....

[kirungi okwogera]

Wow, that's the worst idea I've heard in my life and betrays a very telling lack of understanding of what rally and indeed endurance motorsport is. People talk about the glory years of rally in the past - what was different, structurally, with the rallies then? Nothing (well, they were longer and even less accessible to a global audience).

Jan, I'm a media goon and I would never get behind such nonsense. These are advertising morons' fingerprints. People who look at everything as "markets" and "target audiences" and not people and events and passion. From a media perspective, when you have competition that is well presented in a clear, understandable way, in media that reaches as many people as possible, you have done your job. The appeal comes from seeing the amazing driving, landscapes, competition, endurance through adverse conditions, etc.

They don't do this to other motorsports with nearly century-long history. Tech regs and calendars are one thing. This ruins the nature of the competition. If you want a one day rally, or a one-stage rally, create your own competition. You could even run it alongside the "real" events... but then that's just a Power Stage though. If you must have "drama", the Power Stage concept is the best way to bring "drama" to the end of a multi-day rally if the result is otherwise pretty settled.

Just as an example of how incredibly stupid this system would be... Rally NZ 2010, one of the most dramatic rallies in recent years - you had 3+ guys fighting for the win on the last stage, 30km Whaanga Coast. If these idiots had their way back then, only 2 could fight for the win right? It would actually DECREASE the real drama and possibilities of the final stage in these kinds of situations, which are incidentally the moments everybody loves most about rally.

[Doon]

Death of the WRC.

Who actually thinks that a final day shoot out will attract more fans? That is mental talk.

We, the FIA, the teams and the promoter need to face facts. The WRC is not a popular sport and NEVER will be. Lets make do with what we have, excite the minority to the point of wetting their pants, occasionally impress the masses, and give the car makes a platform to sell some cars.

The main thing is, we, the WRC etc etc cannot sell out. If anything we need to go back to basics, where people can buy showroom cars and race them on roads they are never supposed to see. That is more romantic and enticing to a casual spectator than a sport that has adapted to modern society's needs.

Personally, I've never been to a final stage just because a driver is in a battle. I go to every stage thinking 'I can't wait to see these cars flat out'. This is what they need to sell

[Rallyper]

Or try to persuade Bernie to stop the Formula 1 race before the last lap and then do the last lap fastest and you win???!!!! How´s that?

Any thinking man worth the word would´nt for his life come up to a such stupid idea. WRC should start believe in themself. And not listen to stupid teambosses.

[ToughMac]

There was nothing wrong with rally back i the 80's and 90's, spectacular cars with spectacular drivers who even had personalities! Methinks a certain Frenchman followed by another is making the sport unpalatable to the media circus - hard to market so to speak. Also to note why are these problems only with the WRC? The ERC seems to be doing just fine and if you look at some domestic championships they are as popular now as they ever were. Somebody in the FIA needs a kick up the backside......

[Doon]

There was nothing wrong with rally back i the 80's and 90's, spectacular cars with spectacular drivers who even had personalities! Methinks a certain Frenchman followed by another is making the sport unpalatable to the media circus - hard to market so to speak. Also to note why are these problems only with the WRC? The ERC seems to be doing just fine and if you look at some domestic championships they are as popular now as they ever were. Somebody in the FIA needs a kick up the backside......

I wouldn't say the ERC is doing fine, the last event attracted 32 entries. The quality of drivers in that championship is poor and there are 2 manufacturers. However, unlike the WRC, the outcome of events is not that predictable.

[focus206]

Just ridicolous, it sounds like a joke the fact they're actually proposing that :s It would be just an enormous farce, absolutely pathetic

[Mirek]

Just ridicolous, it sounds like a joke the fact they're actually proposing that :s It would be just an enormous farce, absolutely pathetic

+1

[nafpaktos]

Eurosport will be benefited if this happen because it will keep the rallies as we all know.the problem will not be for rallies but for wrc,i really dont care.if they want to destroy wrc i will follow the erc on maybe a new global rally championsip,i will not stop love this sport because of some as&&&@&@&es.

[makinen_fan]

http://www.maxrally.com/2014/05/01/ill-al-rajhi-out-of-jordan-rally

[pantealex]

http://www.maxrally.com/2014/05/01/ill-al-rajhi-out-of-jordan-rally

probably non starter for Argentina also.

[Mintexmemory]

probably non starter for Argentina also.


Best wishes for a speedy recovery, I'm sure he won't want for excellent medical attention.
Pleasant guy who seems to love what he does and doesn't mind it showing.

[makinen_fan]

Nice interview by Kubica comparing WRC and F1
http://www.autox.in/feature/formula-one-wrc-different-worlds/

[PLuto]

I wouldn't say the ERC is doing fine, the last event attracted 32 entries. The quality of drivers in that championship is poor and there are 2 manufacturers. However, unlike the WRC, the outcome of events is not that predictable.

There were much more competitors, but not eligible in ERC due to stupid FIA rules (especially tyres). Quality of drivers in that championship is good, for sure not worse than WRC2 or non-manufacturers drivers in WRC. And only two manufacturers? ERC is primary for private drivers. In S2000 era there were more different brands than in WRC, thats why FIA killed it...

[nafpaktos]

, thats why FIA killed it...explanation please!

[Mirek]

explanation please!

I'm sure PLuto meant the ban of new S2000 homologations which was imposed exactly (accidentally if You like) at the peak of IRC (and S2000) popularity. The successive 1.6T formula proved itself to be extremely costly for privateers and never achieved any success out of WRC. Since then the IRC level started to decrease while before it was constantly rising.

[KiwiWRCfan]

Alex Kelsey has designed and built his own rally car in a barn in New Zealand. He calls it an MC2 abbreviation of MadCreation2
Here is the local news coverage http://www.3news.co.nz/Kiwi-rally-stars-barn-built-creation/tabid/415/articleID/282258/Default.aspx Prepare to be amazed
and here is an article with a lot more info
http://alittlebitsideways.co.nz/alex-kelsey-reveals-home-built-rally-car-in-coromandel/

[Rallyper]

Alex Kelsey has designed and built his own rally car in a barn in New Zealand. He calls it an MC2 abbreviation of MadCreation2
Here is the local news coverage http://www.3news.co.nz/Kiwi-rally-stars-barn-built-creation/tabid/415/articleID/282258/Default.aspx Prepare to be amazed
and here is an article with a lot more info
http://alittlebitsideways.co.nz/alex-kelsey-reveals-home-built-rally-car-in-coromandel/

Wow! Please KiwiWRCfan, let us know all news about this man and his project when it comes up .

[Doon]

How much did that cost to build?

[nafpaktos]

I'm sure PLuto meant the ban of new S2000 homologations which was imposed exactly (accidentally if You like) at the peak of IRC (and S2000) popularity. The successive 1.6T formula proved itself to be extremely costly for privateers and never achieved any success out of WRC. Since then the IRC level started to decrease while before it was constantly rising.
The 1.6Τ formoula(rrc) was expensive that's for sure but the s2000 was almost the same expensive,so o dont think this could be a reason.

[Mirek]

The 1.6Τ formoula(rrc) was expensive that's for sure but the s2000 was almost the same expensive,so o dont think this could be a reason.

Absolutely not! For example engine rebuild of Fabia S2000 costs 1/3 of the same for Fiesta RRC. It's huge difference. There are almost no RRC cars among teams outside WRC but hundreds of S2000 cars even three years after new homologations were banned.

[kirungi okwogera]

Alex Kelsey has designed and built his own rally car in a barn in New Zealand. He calls it an MC2 abbreviation of MadCreation2
Here is the local news coverage http://www.3news.co.nz/Kiwi-rally-stars-barn-built-creation/tabid/415/articleID/282258/Default.aspx Prepare to be amazed
and here is an article with a lot more info
http://alittlebitsideways.co.nz/alex-kelsey-reveals-home-built-rally-car-in-coromandel/

You forgot the best video link, the hot lap!

http://www.3news.co.nz/Video-A-hotlap-with-Alex-Kelsey/tabid/415/articleID/343207/Default.aspx

Listen to the sound, like no rally car I've ever heard, even group B. I wish he'd built this while I was still in NZ...

[kirungi okwogera]

How much did that cost to build?

I'd be interested to know this too. Sourcing every part based on value, buying brake discs from cancelled Subaru WRCs, making your own frame etc. make me think he may have done the classic kiwi style of Burt Munro - maximum speed for minimum money.

[Doon]

You forgot the best video link, the hot lap!

http://www.3news.co.nz/Video-A-hotlap-with-Alex-Kelsey/tabid/415/articleID/343207/Default.aspx

Listen to the sound, like no rally car I've ever heard, even group B. I wish he'd built this while I was still in NZ...


You've obviously never heard of or seen this then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYZTvsJsYYA

I'll wait till I heard this MC2 in the forest, but Andy Burton's car is the benchmark for any self build car;

1. It looks better
2. Probably quicker
3. Cheaper to build (that 207 looks expensive!)
4. Will always have a more legendary following

This guy must have taken some inspiration from Andy Burton's 306 Cosworth, Pug, mid engine, build in a barn.......although this fella's ^ barn looks like a pretty decent workshop. Fair play to the lad. Would love to see the 306 vs 207 on a forest stage.

Remember AB was doing Rally GB National 2010, and in Radnor he was 17s down on the stage winner (Petter) which would have put him 7th O/A......and that was after a 10s spin. What a car, what a driver!

[Rallyper]

Well, Doon, you don´t have to be yellous. Both cars are very nice. Though I think theKiwi one is much worse. However which class will they suit?
We do have the R-classes and WRC and none will be suitable for any of those cars.

[Dug83]

How much did that cost to build?


I'd be interested to know this too. Sourcing every part based on value, buying brake discs from cancelled Subaru WRCs, making your own frame etc. make me think he may have done the classic kiwi style of Burt Munro - maximum speed for minimum money.

It says in the video less than a PWRC, not bad if its true.

[CyborgVR4]

That ("Less than a top Grp N") was one of the earlier claims/goals stated for this car, however I suspect the true labour cost was not factored into that sum.

[makinen_fan]

Interesting comments from Peugeot about WRC and its 'promoter'

http://www.maxrally.com/2014/05/13/famin-wrc-is-not-for-me

[Doon]

Interesting comments from Peugeot about WRC and its 'promoter'

http://www.maxrally.com/2014/05/13/famin-wrc-is-not-for-me

Another guy who has lost sight of what the WRC actually is. A compact 3 day event (this I assume is including the recce) is not the way forward for the WRC, possibly 1 day of 'micky mouse' stages and 2 days of proper stages, with 2 days of recce might work. It sounds to me that manufactures want to go Rallycrossing, purely because it's cheaper and it's and easier to broadcast. For me Rallycross is one up from 'banger racing'. The whole point of the WRC is the surroundings, the stunning scenery and local places and people in the back of nowhere, places that'd you'd never normally visit. I've seen some excellent places in the europe watching WRC events, but it's not for the un-adventureous. It's not for people who want to sit by a race track for 8 hours, and I say let those people stay at the race tracks and the rest of us can have adventures watching the WRC!

I agree that the cars should be cheaper, and with an R5 format the entries would be much higher in the top class, but R5 cars are a little dull compared to WRCs.

In the good old days, the sport did as it pleased and it worked. Trying to appease the masses clearly doesn't work. I still stand by the fact that over the last 15 years watching the WRC live, on the stages (not on a 50 inch flat screen, in your armchair on Sunday afternoon), the sport has not changed apart from loosing the entries. It's still as exciting, the cars are even fast, the drivers fitter and quicker.

[MJW]

Another guy who has lost sight of what the WRC actually is. A compact 3 day event (this I assume is including the recce) is not the way forward for the WRC, possibly 1 day of 'micky mouse' stages and 2 days of proper stages, with 2 days of recce might work. It sounds to me that manufactures want to go Rallycrossing, purely because it's cheaper and it's and easier to broadcast. For me Rallycross is one up from 'banger racing'. The whole point of the WRC is the surroundings, the stunning scenery and local places and people in the back of nowhere, places that'd you'd never normally visit. I've seen some excellent places in the europe watching WRC events, but it's not for the un-adventureous. It's not for people who want to sit by a race track for 8 hours, and I say let those people stay at the race tracks and the rest of us can have adventures watching the WRC!

I agree that the cars should be cheaper, and with an R5 format the entries would be much higher in the top class, but R5 cars are a little dull compared to WRCs.

In the good old days, the sport did as it pleased and it worked. Trying to appease the masses clearly doesn't work. I still stand by the fact that over the last 15 years watching the WRC live, on the stages (not on a 50 inch flat screen, in your armchair on Sunday afternoon), the sport has not changed apart from loosing the entries. It's still as exciting, the cars are even fast, the drivers fitter and quicker.
But if the manufacturers dont get what they want, they wont play, simple, WRC will be for amatuers and hobbyists with no paid or sponsored drivers. How long will it survive then?
I think an R5 or R5+ future with say recce on friday, long day of competition on saturday before a power stage focused sunday, could save rallying for the manufacturers. Afterall, manuifacturers are not sports enthusisast they want to sell cars. If Petter and Hansen do that in RallyX with live tv, I am afraid that thats where the sport will go. We have had years on posts on this and other forums and no one is listening. The manufacturerers and FIA wont let us go back to the late 1990's (when I think it was best)

[Doon]

But if the manufacturers dont get what they want, they wont play, simple, WRC will be for amatuers and hobbyists with no paid or sponsored drivers. How long will it survive then?
I think an R5 or R5+ future with say recce on friday, long day of competition on saturday before a power stage focused sunday, could save rallying for the manufacturers. Afterall, manuifacturers are not sports enthusisast they want to sell cars. If Petter and Hansen do that in RallyX with live tv, I am afraid that thats where the sport will go. We have had years on posts on this and other forums and no one is listening. The manufacturerers and FIA wont let us go back to the late 1990's (when I think it was best)

That is probably what it needs. Let the WRC as we know it die out, then amatures start their own championship. Eventually it will become healthy again. It's pretty much the process RX has been going through for the last 20 years.

[Doon]

Chuck me in the loony bin but 1 day of full competition, plus a powerstage, sounds rubbish. It would definately ruin the atmosphere at events, how many people would travel hundreds of miles, even thousands, and spend huge amounts of money to watch one full day of rallying? I'd stay at home and watch the day long local events.

[MJW]

Chuck me in the loony bin but 1 day of full competition, plus a powerstage, sounds rubbish. It would definately ruin the atmosphere at events, how many people would travel hundreds of miles, even thousands, and spend huge amounts of money to watch one full day of rallying? I'd stay at home and watch the day long local events.

How many came to Fafe? And I know for a fact that WRC promoter / Red Bull Media House or whaterver they are were blown away by the success of Fafe rallysprint.

[rallyfiend]

How many came to Fafe? And I know for a fact that WRC promoter / Red Bull Media House or whaterver they are were blown away by the success of Fafe rallysprint.

They attended Fafe last year with Todt, so it's been obviously bubbling away for a while...

[GigiGalliNo1]

But it's taking them forever to understand it!! As we see no positive change has occurred.

I began to follow the WRC in 1999..

Can someone bring back memories of what the difference in the WRC was in. 1999-to-2003 when it was in Better Years? To what people want it now?

[AndyRAC]

How far do you change a sport, just to appease Manufacturers? I'd say they've changed the sport far too much as it is. What they want is World Rally X 'Endurance'.

I now think enough is enough - it's time to tell the Manufacturers to go to RallyX. WRC is not for them.

Do you think if Manufacturers asked the ACO to reduce the hours of Sportscar racing they'd listen? No! They'd be told to go away.....

Rallying seems hell bent on changing for Manufacturers, TV, etc Eventually there'll be nothing left of it. Someone has to make a stand.

[MJW]

Can we keep this in perspective? What I was refering to was an article attributed to a senior empoyee in a manufacturer's competition department who said WRC is too expensive and does not offer the rate of return on investment that the car manufacturer he works for expects. Peugeot had a massive publicity success rate on Pikes Peak 2013, and then Bruno Famin said the whole project cost less than a privateer spends on a wrc programme. In this article on maxrally he also said that rallyx gave them what they wanted. Face it WRC is in a crisis, we are nearing half way through year 2 if VW's guaranteed commitment of a three year programme. What next?

[SubaruNorway]

How many countries broadcast live apart from the local channels and Bt Sport/ESPN UK?

Viasat Sport in Norway had ordered it for the whole season but was later told they couldn't have it, wonder what the reason for that could be...

[Jack4688`]

I don't know about everyone else but there are two big problems with the current WRC TV coverage. Well they're minor really but they reduce my enthusiasm for watching it so much.

1. In-car cameras used to be positioned behind the the driver/co-driver - not only could you see the scenery bearing down on the car but you could see the driver hard at work fighting the controls and the co-driver trying to keep cool whilst being thrown about. What was wrong with that and why do we now have to view through a tiny portion of the windscreen that often gets covered in muck, thereby reducing total visible action?

2. Helicopter shots, helicopter shots and more helicopter shots! Rally cars tearing through open moorland, over Alpine roads or between giant trees looks about 10 times less spectacular when viewed from above with these ruddy heli-cams. All you can really see is the car covering ground rather than the way it takes the crests and puts it's power down out of a hairpin bend. The few times we do see stage-side action - Argentina's power stage for example, due to fog rendering the heli-cam useless - it is so much more spectacular, mainly because you get a proper sense of the speed the cars travel at.

So when promotors/team bosses/FIA talk about getting fans interested in Rallying again and only talking b*ll*cks about 'new media', more live coverage etc I just shout at my computer screen because they're missing the point. The product isn't failing, it's the boring way most of it is broadcast. Just think how boring RX, F1, Moto GP etc would become if around 70% of the event was shown from a helicopter. Or depending on your opinion on those sports, how much more boring it would become

[Doon]

How many came to Fafe? And I know for a fact that WRC promoter / Red Bull Media House or whaterver they are were blown away by the success of Fafe rallysprint.

Fair point but that is one stage in one country, and its a kind of mass protest to take the rally back to the north.....where it was when WRC was popular. I think the idea of a powerstage day is good, using one stage, but there need to be at least 2 full days before, otherwise the sport is rallysprinting, not rallying.

[Doon]

But it's taking them forever to understand it!! As we see no positive change has occurred.

I began to follow the WRC in 1999..

Can someone bring back memories of what the difference in the WRC was in. 1999-to-2003 when it was in Better Years? To what people want it now?

There wasnt one guy totally dominating, that is the problem. Even when Makinen won 4 on the trot he didnt look invincible......Loeb was and now Ogier is, and he may win for the next 6 or 7 years.

[MJW]

Another thing that I think is wrong is that the cars are underpowered for the cost. A WRC needs another 50 or 60 bhp but is still mentally expensive in its currenf format. I think R5 may save wrc. Costs need controlling and more competitive drivers in R5 will help.

[Doon]

I don't know about itsveryone else but there are two big problems with the current WRC TV coverage. Well they're minor really but they reduce my enthusiasm for watching it so much.

1. In-car cameras used to be positioned behind the the driver/co-driver - not only could you see the scenery bearing down on the car but you could see the driver hard at work fighting the controls and the co-driver trying to keep cool whilst being thrown about. What was wrong with that and why do we now have to view through a tiny portion of the windscreen that often gets covered in muck, thereby reducing total visible action?

2. Helicopter shots, helicopter shots and more helicopter shots! Rally cars tearing through open moorland, over Alpine roads or between giant trees looks about 10 times less spectacular when viewed from above with these ruddy heli-cams. All you can really see is the car covering ground rather than the way it takes the crests and puts it's power down out of a hairpin bend. The few times we do see stage-side action - Argentina's power stage for example, due to fog rendering the heli-cam useless - it is so much more spectacular, mainly because you get a proper sense of the speed the cars travel at.

So when promotors/team bosses/FIA talk about getting fans interested in Rallying again and only talking b*ll*cks about 'new media', more live coverage etc I just shout at my computer screen because they're missing the point. The product isn't failing, it's the boring way most of it is broadcast. Just think how boring RX, F1, Moto GP etc would become if around 70% of the event was shown from a helicopter. Or depending on your opinion on those sports, how much more boring it would become

I agree totally with the footage aspect....its shit. I think the hardcore fan have a far better idea about the future of the WRC.

[Francis44]

I fear however than another downgrade on the cars will throw many fans away from the sport, I myself dont see me doing hundreds of km's to see R5's as the top category on a World Championship level.

Malcom Wilson said the difference between current WRC and R5 on the eye is pretty much unnoticeable, well allow me to disagree. If you see both on the same spot you will clearly see the difference, plus the Fiesta R5 may just be the most boring car to come out of the M-sport facilities in the last years.

[Doon]

I think the FIA, teams etc can make all the changes they like and the WRC will still never be a very popular sport. The masses want glamour, if Ogier was dating Jennifer Laurence, Neuville playing the field with supermodels, Hirvonen married to Cheryl Cole and Latvala seeing a bikini model, you can bet your bottom dollar that the WRC would become popular. Its sad, but in the late 90s and early 2000s driver salaries were higher and this created more buzz, more news coverage, and thus more followers. Example of this was McRae signing for Ford, loads of media attention, Focus tv adverts, more computer games etc etc. Apart from Loeb in France ive not seen a WRC driver promoting a branded product, for years.

[Mirek]

What's glamour about Dakar?

[dimviii]

+1 @ Jack4688
very well said.

[Doon]

What's glamour about Dakar?

There isn't, and;

A. I've never seen it on TV
B. It's not in the news (unless someone dies on a motorbike)
C. Not in the national papers
D. Don't know anyone who knows any drivers as a household name
E. Never heard a conversation about Dakar or anyone or it's driver down the pub
F. Never seen a manufacturer promoting their car through the Dakar


Must I go on? Dakar is less visible than the WRC

[stefanvv]

Well, Peugeot except huge expenses are actually concerned mostly about the promotion of the sport. R5, R5+ would be also good if there are no wrc cars imho. The important thing is how the sport is promoted. The presentation package perspective - land cameras - cumbersome, heli cams - boring, has someone actually consider drones - they present such attractive perspective.

[EightGear]

There isn't, and;

A. I've never seen it on TV
B. It's not in the news (unless someone dies on a motorbike)
C. Not in the national papers
D. Don't know anyone who knows any drivers as a household name
E. Never heard a conversation about Dakar or anyone or it's driver down the pub
F. Never seen a manufacturer promoting their car through the Dakar


Must I go on? Dakar is less visible than the WRC

Dakar is quite huge here in the Netherlands. During January you will hear people talk about it in the pubs etc. WRC is invisible.

[Doon]

Are there dutch driver in Dakar?

I don't think we can compare the Dakar and WRC anyway. For a start the Dakar is not the Dakar, and its only one event like the Fafe Rally Sprint.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the WRC apart from the TV coverage (in the UK). I have been to rally gb for the last 12 years, and the speed and commitment has only grown. The problem is not the sport itself but the people who expect more from it.

[focus206]

Are there dutch driver in Dakar?

Quite a lot, yes, many of them in the Truck category.

[AndyRAC]

Are there dutch driver in Dakar?

I don't think we can compare the Dakar and WRC anyway. For a start the Dakar is not the Dakar, and its only one event like the Fafe Rally Sprint.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the WRC apart from the TV coverage (in the UK). I have been to rally gb for the last 12 years, and the speed and commitment has only grown. The problem is not the sport itself but the people who expect more from it.

This is the main point. What are they expecting? Are they seriously expecting something approaching F1? C'mon - get real. All non F1 Motorsport has been marginalised in the last 10-15 years.

[Franky]

heli cams - boring, has someone actually consider drones - they present such attractive perspective.

You do understand that you are proposing to use less useful flying camera? Heli cams are great, it's just that landscape sets some boundaries. Drones in rallying are still pretty pointless because you can only use it for hovering. Their fly speeds are too small compared to the speed cars are doing. Also at the moment they've got more of an effect camera role like most action cameras.

Another thing with drones are the safety risks.

More on ground cameras is the way to go.

[Mirek]

There isn't, and;

A. I've never seen it on TV
B. It's not in the news (unless someone dies on a motorbike)
C. Not in the national papers
D. Don't know anyone who knows any drivers as a household name
E. Never heard a conversation about Dakar or anyone or it's driver down the pub
F. Never seen a manufacturer promoting their car through the Dakar


Must I go on? Dakar is less visible than the WRC

Here in CZ the news are full of Dakar. Every day it has a relation on national TV etc. It has way better coverage than WRC in our media. I think that it's similar in quite many countries.

[vino_93]

I think the FIA, teams etc can make all the changes they like and the WRC will still never be a very popular sport. The masses want glamour, if Ogier was dating Jennifer Laurence, Neuville playing the field with supermodels, Hirvonen married to Cheryl Cole and Latvala seeing a bikini model, you can bet your bottom dollar that the WRC would become popular. Its sad, but in the late 90s and early 2000s driver salaries were higher and this created more buzz, more news coverage, and thus more followers. Example of this was McRae signing for Ford, loads of media attention, Focus tv adverts, more computer games etc etc. Apart from Loeb in France ive not seen a WRC driver promoting a branded product, for years.

And for Loeb, that's quite recent.
Citroën never used him a lot to promote their cars ... These last days a bit more.
I remember one for the C4 Picasso, and one for the C4. This one is the only talking directly of rally :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojc5iIiRklY

Then he wasn't used by them, at the exception of a small clip for the Euro 2012 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojc5iIiRklY
And something for a limited C4 Picasso, so short term publicity. More to promote Rossignol ski brand too (partner of the car).

Citroën never used him a lot, and rally was more or less a forbidden word.
Now we see Loeb for private partners, who promote more him (and Citroën) than Citroën did ...

[A FONDO]

There isn't, and;

A. I've never seen it on TV
B. It's not in the news (unless someone dies on a motorbike)
C. Not in the national papers
D. Don't know anyone who knows any drivers as a household name
E. Never heard a conversation about Dakar or anyone or it's driver down the pub
F. Never seen a manufacturer promoting their car through the Dakar


Must I go on? Dakar is less visible than the WRC
nothing of these points is true. the first one to add to my ignore list after the forum has been renewed.

[Rallyper]

nothing of these points is true. the first one to add to my ignore list after the forum has been renewed.

So you put anyone on ignore list as soon they have opposite thoughts than you? There´s anyway much truth in what Doon says, here in Sweden.

[semsem]

Hello! I wonder if people are missing the point. It is exciting that people can follow the sport round the world, but rallying is traditionally a sport of active rather than passive participation. It has been like that for 100 years, why now try to change that? MotorsportMonday.com th
is week had a column feature suggesting that TV might not be the holy grail after all.

[AndyRAC]

Chasing TV is old news. It’s 2014 – online streaming is the way to go for ‘Live’ coverage. Use TV for highlights/review programmes.
RedBull have their own online ‘TV station’ – and haven’t used it as they could have; look at the Mountain Biking World Cup as an example. That is what they should have done with the WRC.

Some series even stream on either YouTube or Dailymotion.

[nafpaktos]

I want to say that the best wrc days were when the sport was expensive.group b,the group a with the endless testing,the wrc with the 3 active differentials etc.if the cars are cheap i don't think it will be attractive for the public.we all want a little bit to see <exotic> cars!what i want to say is that high cost have helped the sport in the past.why not know?

[Mirek]

I want to say that the best wrc days were when the sport was expensive.group b,the group a with the endless testing,the wrc with the 3 active differentials etc.if the cars are cheap i don't think it will be attractive for the public.we all want a little bit to see <exotic> cars!what i want to say is that high cost have helped the sport in the past.why not know?

Yes, also in those times common cars had 50 Hp and the rally cars had 10x more! Nowadays 300 Hp engine in a road car isn't that special. When You take a used car You don't need to be any rich to have one. Even if You take that most common cars have around 100-150 Hp it's still only 2x-3x less than WRC car. Nothing mind-blowing about that. I know that modern rallying is not about raw power but the raw power has always been very appealing to the general public. Many people dream about crazy cars with 600 Hp they can watch on Top Gear...

[RAS007]

There wasnt one guy totally dominating, that is the problem. Even when Makinen won 4 on the trot he didnt look invincible......Loeb was and now Ogier is, and he may win for the next 6 or 7 years.

I think that this has been a large contributing factor to the current state of the WRC; after Gronholm retired, there was simply no competition at all, and Loeb sleepwalked to 5 titles in row. With Ogier, as you said, it looks like more of the same.

[Doon]

nothing of these points is true. the first one to add to my ignore list after the forum has been renewed.


If none are true, then at least give me the list of Dakar's 'household' name drivers, please? In fact, just give me one?

Throughout the history of the Dakar, most non-fans will only remember one person. Mark Thatcher, because he got lost and was Maggie's son.

[A FONDO]

So you put anyone on ignore list as soon they have opposite thoughts than you? There´s anyway much truth in what Doon says, here in Sweden.

not the thoughts, the facts! you are the second :D


Chasing TV is old news. It’s 2014 – online streaming is the way to go for ‘Live’ coverage. Use TV for highlights/review programmes.
RedBull have their own online ‘TV station’ – and haven’t used it as they could have; look at the Mountain Biking World Cup as an example. That is what they should have done with the WRC.

Some series even stream on either YouTube or Dailymotion.
exactly.

[AMSS]

Yes, also in those times common cars had 50 Hp and the rally cars had 10x more! Nowadays 300 Hp engine in a road car isn't that special. When You take a used car You don't need to be any rich to have one. Even if You take that most common cars have around 100-150 Hp it's still only 2x-3x less than WRC car. Nothing mind-blowing about that. I know that modern rallying is not about raw power but the raw power has always been very appealing to the general public. Many people dream about crazy cars with 600 Hp they can watch on Top Gear...

Agreed completely, they could/should immediately change the rules to similar as in the WTCC(same base engine as in WRC as far as I know) with bigger restrictor (think it`s 36mm) and they have according to manufactorers around 380hp so in reality probably around 400hp..

[Rallyper]

not the thoughts, the facts! you are the second :D




Well, in that case you can´t read much, because everyone will be on your ignore list in the end.

[Gregor-y]

I think Andy's on to something. Online coverage would be able to reach most viewers that want to watch with no regard to location. Just keep a copy available so people in vastly different time zones can still watch. I remember waking up very early to watch Euro Vision's live Monte Carlo coverage (2009?) that was just fantastic. All you need is a sponsor with a global product to promote, like Red Bull.


Chasing TV is old news. It’s 2014 – online streaming is the way to go for ‘Live’ coverage. Use TV for highlights/review programmes.
RedBull have their own online ‘TV station’ – and haven’t used it as they could have; look at the Mountain Biking World Cup as an example. That is what they should have done with the WRC.

Some series even stream on either YouTube or Dailymotion.

[stefanvv]

You do understand that you are proposing to use less useful flying camera? Heli cams are great, it's just that landscape sets some boundaries. Drones in rallying are still pretty pointless because you can only use it for hovering. Their fly speeds are too small compared to the speed cars are doing. Also at the moment they've got more of an effect camera role like most action cameras.

Another thing with drones are the safety risks.

More on ground cameras is the way to go.

Yes, I know the difficulties and limited usage, but I prefer this instead of the stupid idea turning the Rally sport into Rally cross.

[Rally Power]

Nowadays WRC rallies aren’t challenging enough at the eyes of common public. The 9 to 5 schedule and the clover leaf itinerary (implemented by the mandatory use of single service areas) made WRC boring and tasteless.

The adventurous side of rallying has been lost and surely the VW/RB final day shootout plan will make things even worse, simply because it’ll put WRC even further from its original spirit.

We don’t need to be 100% purist and get back the classic layouts, but somehow there should be ways to WRC become again a physically demanding challenge for drivers and machines with huge popular recognition.

Avoiding an overall cost escalate, we could have 8 to 10 transnational rallies, without schedule restrictions, using flexible service areas and different road surfaces, instead of the current 13/14 regionally based lookalike events.

A hypothetical Lisboa-Madrid rally sounds much more appealing than nowadays algarve’s or catalunya’s WRC loops and shouldn’t be over-priced for organizers and competitors.

[SubaruNorway]

I don't know about everyone else but there are two big problems with the current WRC TV coverage. Well they're minor really but they reduce my enthusiasm for watching it so much.

1. In-car cameras used to be positioned behind the the driver/co-driver - not only could you see the scenery bearing down on the car but you could see the driver hard at work fighting the controls and the co-driver trying to keep cool whilst being thrown about. What was wrong with that and why do we now have to view through a tiny portion of the windscreen that often gets covered in muck, thereby reducing total visible action?


I talked to someone in Filmworks, the production company and it's the FIA limiting them from positioning the cameras where they want
stating that mounting it on the seat "ear" could cause it to go through the seat or coming loose and hurt them.

You would have to crash pretty bad for that to happen, mine even stuck on during Østberg's ski jump with the stock gopro 3m sticky mount...

[RAS007]

Nowadays WRC rallies aren’t challenging enough at the eyes of common public. The 9 to 5 schedule and the clover leaf itinerary (implemented by the mandatory use of single service areas) made WRC boring and tasteless.

The adventurous side of rallying has been lost and surely the VW/RB final day shootout plan will make things even worse, simply because it’ll put WRC even further from its original spirit.

We don’t need to be 100% purist and get back the classic layouts, but somehow there should be ways to WRC become again a physically demanding challenge for drivers and machines with huge popular recognition.

Give that man a cigar.

[Doon]

Why not relax regulations and go back to the Group B format. 200 specials, keep 20 for yourself, and make a monster. This is far more appealing, and joe public will be scrapping for one of the remaining 180 cars on sale. They need to create a buzz, a sense of something special. (btw, I think they are special enough in their current form)

Someone will stay, 'but the manufacturers can't, because their cars need to appear eco friendly, small engines, low CO2 etc', but what about RX? They are getting away with it.... for now.

[Nornbugger]

Can we keep this in perspective? What I was refering to was an article attributed to a senior empoyee in a manufacturer's competition department who said WRC is too expensive and does not offer the rate of return on investment that the car manufacturer he works for expects. Peugeot had a massive publicity success rate on Pikes Peak 2013, and then Bruno Famin said the whole project cost less than a privateer spends on a wrc programme. In this article on maxrally he also said that rallyx gave them what they wanted. Face it WRC is in a crisis, we are nearing half way through year 2 if VW's guaranteed commitment of a three year programme. What next?

Peugeot did well with the Pikes Peak program, but only they or Audi could have got the same reaction to doing what they did, and now for Peugeot it wouldnt work the same to do it again this year so while what they say cost wise may be true it isnt really relevant

[Nornbugger]

I think the FIA, teams etc can make all the changes they like and the WRC will still never be a very popular sport. The masses want glamour, if Ogier was dating Jennifer Laurence, Neuville playing the field with supermodels, Hirvonen married to Cheryl Cole and Latvala seeing a bikini model, you can bet your bottom dollar that the WRC would become popular. Its sad, but in the late 90s and early 2000s driver salaries were higher and this created more buzz, more news coverage, and thus more followers. Example of this was McRae signing for Ford, loads of media attention, Focus tv adverts, more computer games etc etc. Apart from Loeb in France ive not seen a WRC driver promoting a branded product, for years.

Funny you should write this, several years ago I advised Meeke to date (any)one of the girls from Girls Aloud, it worked for several footballers and it would have made him 100% more marketable. I'm sure his wife is lovely, and she has a good motorsport pedigree which may bode well for their children if they are blessed with them, but she did nought to raise his profile.

[Nornbugger]

nothing of these points is true. the first one to add to my ignore list after the forum has been renewed.

Are you saying Doon has watched Dakar and didnt realise or forgot?

[Mirek]

Are you saying Doon has watched Dakar and didnt realise or forgot?

From 2012 official partner TVs of Dakar

EUROPE
Pan-Europe - Eurosport
CzechRepublic - Czech TV
Germany – N24, RTL, ZDF
Hungary - RTL Klub
Italy – RAI
Lithuania - Baltijos
Netherlands - RTL 7
Poland – TVN
Russia - RUSSIA 2
Spain - RTVE
Spain - Esport 3
Ukraine –1+1 &2+2

AMERICAS
Argentina - Canal 7
Brazil – Fox
Canada - RDS
Chile – TVN
Guatemala - Canal 7
Paraguay - Telefuturo
Peru– ATV& IRTP
USA – NBC

ASIA/AUSTRALIA
Australia - SBS
China - Hunan TV
Hong Kong - TVB
Japan - J Sports
New Zealand - Sky Sport

PAN-REGIONAL
Pain-Africa - Supersport
Pan-South America - Fox Sports
Pan-Asia - ESPN Star and Eurosport Asia
Pan-Europe - Eurosport
Pan Middle East - Al Jazeera Sport

Coverage on French TV

Live coverage every day* from 6:40 PM to 7:40 PM and also on sport.francetv.fr
Le Dakar
Hosted by Gérard Holtz, Luc Alphand et Elodie Gossuin

One hour of Live broadcast from the heart of the race with:
- comments from Jean-François Kerckaert from one of the official helicopters from the organisation to follow the end of the stage in the car category
- reports by Richard Coffin and Gaël Robic from the Bivouac

Dominique Le Glou proposera par ailleurs chaque jour dans cette émission son Carnet de route, avec des reportages en immersion au sein des pays traversés.

Live coverage every day* after the Tout le Sport show
Le Journal du Dakar
Hosted by Gérard Holtz et Luc Alphand

Every day* in the late evening (26 minutes)
Bivouac
Gérard Holtz and Luc Alphand meet the competitors in the bivouac and comment the best images of the day.

On Sundays 8th and 15th January
Stade 2
With special reports Live from Copiapo (Chile) and Lima (Peru).


In statistics

In almost 190 countries, a total of 70 channels will broadcast the race. Every day three TV helicopters with capture the images of the special stage and send them in a race against the clock. The 22 editing stations installed near the finish line will work relentlessly to guarantee a fast and efficient relay capacity. A total of seven hours of program content will be broadcasted daily.
1200 program content hours broadcasted in 5 continents.

[Juha_Koo]

Interesting discussions :)

In Finland, where all kinds of motorsports are rather popular, Dakar gets pretty much attention only when someone dies. No broadcasts, very seldom even mentioned in sports news. Only exposure is Nordic Eurosport through which they have Finnish commentator for Eurosport dakar broadcasts.

[makinen_fan]

Why not relax regulations and go back to the Group B format. 200 specials, keep 20 for yourself, and make a monster. This is far more appealing, and joe public will be scrapping for one of the remaining 180 cars on sale. They need to create a buzz, a sense of something special. (btw, I think they are special enough in their current form)

Someone will stay, 'but the manufacturers can't, because their cars need to appear eco friendly, small engines, low CO2 etc', but what about RX? They are getting away with it.... for now.

I tend to agree with this, but doesn't have to be 200 specials. Just introduce prototype cars, that will bring the wow factor to an average spectator and I am sure a lot of people will rush back to stages and the manufacturers will get the return for their money. There was nothing wrong with Gr.B apart from safety (today can be much better controlled and regulated as FIA learned a lot during the past 30 years) and crowd control that can also be controlled. Their demise was hugely for political reasons in favour of F1.



I talked to someone in Filmworks, the production company and it's the FIA limiting them from positioning the cameras where they want
stating that mounting it on the seat "ear" could cause it to go through the seat or coming loose and hurt them.

You would have to crash pretty bad for that to happen, mine even stuck on during Østberg's ski jump with the stock gopro 3m sticky mount...

Why not force at least manufacturer entries to use special homologated seats with decent installation mounts for cameras. I am sure they can do it if they want and it should be that costly. Anyway all new WRC cars do not use off the shelve seat as they used to in the past.

[Juha_Koo]

People are never happy, when the onboard cameras were behind the drivers, everybody complained how they can't see the road properly... "Seats take too much space in the view", "I don't want to see rollcage but road" etc etc. :)

I understand FIA's safety concern, I always thought it is because of it that we dont see seat-mounted cameras (although we have seen them in the past, e.g. check 2011 Hirvonen Mexico & Finland onboards (Mikko used "hard-surfaced" Recaro seat that season)).

And unlike stated above, making and using specially designed seats would become really expensive. There's no need to make new seats as everything is possible with existing stuff.

Just check out Torstein Eriksen's video of Østberg Portugal test. Awesome footage with GoPros, only lacking the intercom audio.

[Mirek]

This is camera position of Václav Pech used by Czech championship promoter Mediasport. In my opinion this is absolutely perfect: http://www.mediasport.cz/rally/onboardy/6191.html

[papar007]

......
Just check out Torstein Eriksen's video of Østberg Portugal test. Awesome footage with GoPros, only lacking the intercom audio.

Agree with you 100% the best footage so far!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bu_1UOHRvM

[Mirek]

I prefer the camera to be a little bit higher than in this video. Most of the time the road ahead of the car is not visible.

[dimviii]

I prefer the camera to be a little bit higher than in this video. Most of the time the road ahead of the car is not visible.

+1 just a little bit higher would be perfect!

[Juha_Koo]

Also this angle if perfect imho... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx45JvkxIvY

[nafpaktos]

www.andreasmikkelsen.no/news/new-co-driver-for-andreas-mikkelsen-ola-floene-is-back/

[SubaruNorway]

Agree with you 100% the best footage so far!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bu_1UOHRvM


And how it looks like when mounted on the top of the seat flap, a bit too high.
http://youtu.be/W6YeCwB9_6Y?t=1m3s

So this is best, had i just mounted it a bit better on the side of the seat flap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oQeYHQ3zCU

Both with external mic.

[bluuford]

Mikkelsen back to his old co-driver - Floene. One of the few experiements that VW totally messed up will be fixed.

[mousti]

What will happen with Pontus..?

[Gard]

What will happen with Pontus..?

RX

[MJW]

RX

Full time RX? I thought he was going to do both WRC and RX.

[mousti]

And his WRC-2 program as a WRC Academy winner..?

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk 2

[COD]

I think the FIA, teams etc can make all the changes they like and the WRC will still never be a very popular sport. The masses want glamour, if Ogier was dating Jennifer Laurence, Neuville playing the field with supermodels, Hirvonen married to Cheryl Cole and Latvala seeing a bikini model, you can bet your bottom dollar that the WRC would become popular. Its sad, but in the late 90s and early 2000s driver salaries were higher and this created more buzz, more news coverage, and thus more followers. Example of this was McRae signing for Ford, loads of media attention, Focus tv adverts, more computer games etc etc. Apart from Loeb in France ive not seen a WRC driver promoting a branded product, for years.

This is true, rally drivers are not stars anymore. I think Grönholm was the last really carismatic driver there. His flamboyant comments and personality made him a star. Ok Petter for sure was also like that. But after them, these current ones look like accountants.

But I agree also that loosing events like Safari and with the current format, the sport has lost the endurance and adventure aspects.

But we must also note that the world has changed, so many things around us are so much different than in 1970's-1990's, many new extrme sports to compete from the attention of the young generation. And let's face it, rallying is a difficult and expensive sport to get into, many of the new extreme ones are much easier and cheaper.

[AdvEvo]

Best years of rally was for me the E30 M3 prodrive/subaru 555/Evo 5 and 6. It was awesome you saw subaru s and evo s line up next to rally stages. Rally cars were spectacular in group a. Now the rally cars are more like buggy s if you see how much wheel travel they have. In the early days they need a scandinavian flick to turn the car into a corner. Now they drive on rails and lost attention from the spectators. The same happens to F1 right now and it will also happen to DTM were they change to 4 cilinder engines in 2 years time.

The future of autosport is not looking good. Fia organization kills autosport with all this fuel saving programs and smaller engines. When the spectators stay away the sponsors will go away for sure and then eventually the sport is killed.

If you just look at some youtube movies people screaming and cheering when a RWD Escort / E30 M3 / Cossie is driving sideways on the stages. Even in rally s today it s more a head turner then 4wd fiesta s and ds3 s all together. And the most boring rallycar is a fwd for spectators.

Something has to change!!!

[Mirek]

I don't think FWD must be so boring. On asphalt if I shall choose whether Evo VI or 306 Maxi I take the Maxi any day. S1600 cars were pretty great on asphalt too.

[A FONDO]

fwd in rally is a parody. actually, fwd in any motorsport is a parody.

[Mirek]

An FWD parody...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEi3PLeEARs

How much ignorance a man needs to write some BS like that...

[janvanvurpa]

An FWD parody...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEi3PLeEARs

How much ignorance a man needs to write some BS like that...


Pretty unbelievable...

I guess these guys have never seen Jeanno Ragnotti, or Pavel Silbera on a good day in the old Favorits.

Boring is boring regardless of drive configuration..
Come to USA and see 80% boringly driven Subarus in turbo 4wd.

[mousti]

Remembering Thiry in the Xsara Kitcar in Ypres. Was a great force then against stronger cars!

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk 2

[A FONDO]

An FWD parody...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEi3PLeEARs

How much ignorance a man needs to write some BS like that...
What I see is a car that sounds loud, has a powerful engine and is driven by a capable driver. Nothing that can't be achieved by RWD or AWD. What is the specific advantage the FWD gives - the struggle in the hairpins or the lift-up of the operating axle when you hit the trottle, the understeer that you get when exiting a corner?

[Rallyper]

What I see is a car that sounds loud, has a powerful engine and is driven by a capable driver. Nothing that can't be achieved by RWD or AWD. What is the specific advantage the FWD gives - the struggle in the hairpins or the lift-up of the operating axle when you hit the trottle, the understeer that you get when exiting a corner?

I kind of understand what you mean. They have a very ugly way of sliding...

[Lundefaret]

Limit suspension travel to half of what it is now, limit tire grip by decreasing with and softness, drop the engine redtrictor so You get higher revs, and make the regulation in favour of multi cylindre naturaly aspirated with no silencers on the stages.
Rally has to look, sound and smell fast.
And last but not least, make the TV coverage much better (give it to Eurosport).
If You can couple this with an online/PS4 rally simulator based on the physics of Richard Burns Rally where fa
ns can play against their heroes in real time, I think You have a winner;)

[Jack4688`]

Watching Rallye Acores on Eurosport and I've noticed two things: onboard cameras in the favoured behind-driver position; and the heli shots aren't too bad - though the stage around that volcano is the only stage in the world that I could say that about :D

[Jack4688`]

I spoke too soon - it seems it's only the older S2000s that have the onboard camera in a good position :(

[Mirek]

I spoke too soon - it seems it's only the older S2000s that have the onboard camera in a good position :(

And only because works Škodas are not there... they always have the camera in the right bottom windscreen corner :(

[vino_93]

An FWD parody...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEi3PLeEARs

How much ignorance a man needs to write some BS like that...

Talking about 306 Maxi, there will be a trophy in Rallye des Vins Mâcons 2014. For the moment, around 10 and 15 cars will come. But If you know drivers from other countries like France who owe car, or would like to rent one for such trophy (Italian teams are available for this), please contact me ! :)

[vino_93]

Pretty unbelievable...

I guess these guys have never seen Jeanno Ragnotti, or Pavel Silbera on a good day in the old Favorits.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asKuYgAcyIk :P

[Mirek]

Talking about 306 Maxi, there will be a trophy in Rallye des Vins Mâcons 2014. For the moment, around 10 and 15 cars will come. But If you know drivers from other countries like France who owe car, or would like to rent one for such trophy (Italian teams are available for this), please contact me ! :)

We used to have two cars here but both are long gone :(

Actually maybe they were three. I don't know if one changed owner or if it was third one. In the past 306 Maxi was successfully used by Jindřich Štolfa (he was challenging WRC drivers with it), second by Josef Peták also successfully until he crashed it hard. The third (or maybe the one of Štolfa) was used by Marian Šín. Peták's car was the best of them, from Racing Lions. Štolfa's one was worse, it had only 6-speed gearbox and no traction control.

[Rally Power]

Epic duel till last meter at the SATA Açores Rally.

We just get the proof Eurosport guys use their brains really well!!! They've brought to fans another celebration of the rallying spirit.

FIA: no need to invent shootout circus schemes for the WRC, just put the eyes on ERC and get the right elements into place – challenging roads, balanced regs and proper media cover.

Congrats to the Azorian organizers. They've prove, again, that Portuguese are between the best ones.

[vino_93]

We used to have two cars here but both are long gone :(

Actually maybe they were three. I don't know if one changed owner or if it was third one. In the past 306 Maxi was successfully used by Jindřich Štolfa (he was challenging WRC drivers with it), second by Josef Peták also successfully until he crashed it hard. The third (or maybe the one of Štolfa) was used by Marian Šín. Peták's car was the best of them, from Racing Lions. Štolfa's one was worse, it had only 6-speed gearbox and no traction control.

Do you know who owe them now ?

[RS]

Epic duel till last meter at the SATA Açores Rally.

We just get the proof Eurosport guys use their brains really well!!! They've brought to fans another celebration of the rallying spirit.

FIA: no need to invent shootout circus schemes for the WRC, just put the eyes on ERC and get the right elements into place – challenging roads, balanced regs and proper media cover.

Congrats to the Azorian organizers. They've prove, again, that Portuguese are between the best ones.

Yes, gimmicks are not necessary when you have a close battle.

The live tv coverage, although not perfect, was far superior to the stuff I saw from Monte and Sweden this year. I don't know if WRC guys have upped their game since though?

[Mirek]

Do you know who owe them now ?

Unfortunately not.

[Munkvy]

Rewatching those clips I think it is definitely clear that these days WRC is far too clinical and boring. Back in the 90s (and I imagine the 80s too), there was far less predictability to the results, the cars and the drivers. The driving was much more obviously on the limit and the cars broke down too, so plenty to mean that there really was many options as to who could win. And the ability to even upset the top guys from time to time in a privateer or 2WD car.

Now, well it's either VW or Citroen dominating. And no personalities or crazy antics. It's all a bit PC, like a lot of this world!

[sollitt]

Some years ago I wrote something similar to the following on this forum;

" In the 70's we had Grp 4. The cars were fast and spectacular and exciting to watch.
In the 80's we had Grp B. The cars were fast and spectacular and exciting to watch.
In the 90's we had Grp A. The cars were fast and spectacular and exciting to watch.
In the 00's we had WRC's. The cars were fast and spectacular and exciting to watch."

As somebody wrote in an earlier post, a Grp4 BDA or E30 BMW is still a good spectacle when driven well ... 4 decades later.

As much as rally cars ought look like rally cars, sound like rally cars and go like rally cars, it is the driver who makes them spectacular on the stages and, as can be seen by the videos of Panizzi & Ragnotti, even 2WD cars can be exciting in the right hands.

The spectators perception of speed and spectacle is not a year by year comparison, it's an on event observation comparing competitors to their rivals.

For me the 70's was the era, simply because not since the Grp 4 days have we had a credible competition which was both accessible and affordable to top domestic competitors as well as those with factory support.

Imagine if golf, the world's most popular and televised spectator sport, was played every week by just half a dozen 'paying' players (not necessarily the most talented) whose equipment was so superior to every other players ensuring no one else came within 10 shots of them.
The sport would lose credibility and popularity very rapidly and very soon vanish from the television screens.

Yet this is exactly the scenario we've had in WRC since the advent of Grp B over 30 years ago. And we cannot understand why the sport is not popular.

Now imagine if you will, if Grp N became the WRC formula tomorrow (No, I'm not at all suggesting it should be).
However, if it were, immediately you'd have a hundred or so compliant and competitive cars around the world capable of being driven to WRC victory, at an affordable level, and probably a couple of dozen competitors all equally capable of competing at the top level.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that, had Grp N been the WRC formula for the past 10 years, we would not have 10 consecutive engravings of Sebastion on the trophy. And the majority of the present and recently departed WRC drivers would not have been in sight of a podium.

You'd have a competition which was accessible to those with the talent, and the grit necessary to make it happen, and one with real credibility. Until the WRC moves to a formula also used in domestic championships and is accessible to more than a handful of 'selected' players and a few with rich daddies, it'll fail to gain any traction or popularity.

A modern day Grp 4 is what we need.

[Mirek]

The problem with something like gr.4 or gr.A is that the world has changed through the years. Dozens of manufacturers all over the world have been connecting into few huge corporations. They've been standardizing production towards the biggest possible masses of simple parts. Marketing values changed from performance to safety and ecology. Even the audience have changed. While thirty years a go every teenager was dreaming about having his own car now it's not like that. For majority of people cars are just goods. Very few people are interested in knowing how they work and what is under the bonnet. For us motorsport freaks it's sad but unfortunately it's reality. What once worked sometimes work again but I'm afraid it doesn't apply for motorsport.

[Eli]

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2014/05/20/capito-kaempft-um-einfuehrung-des-shootouts/index.html he is going to ruin the sport, the drivers are against it, and no he wants to continue with the idea. i'm sorry for saying this but god this man is stupid!!!

[Mirek]

Out of curiosity... has anyone of You ever met a single person who likes the idea? I haven't...

[Juha_Koo]

This discussion (as a larger phenomenon, not this thread) has three major problems:

1. Fans don't understand the marketing needs of manufacturers/teams.
2. Manufacturers/teams don't do the circus for the hardcore fans but for average joes - and the subsequent failure to understand this.
3. Longing for the past times that won't return. World has changed.

I'm in no means in favour of Capito's shootout idea, in my opinion it isn't rallying at all. But to my knowledge, VW has been quite disappointed to the media coverage and promotion of WRC. We have to understand them a bit, they pour in millions for what? Lousy promotion and media services like crap? If promotion would have been and would be done in a correct way, Capito wouldn't need to ask these spectator-magnets to be made.

[dimviii]

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2014/05/20/capito-kaempft-um-einfuehrung-des-shootouts/index.html he is going to ruin the sport, the drivers are against it, and no he wants to continue with the idea. i'm sorry for saying this but god this man is stupid!!!

lolololol

[vino_93]

To be honest, I've never seen any publicity of VW talking about rally. Except maybe something in Autohebdo (but I'm not sure it was VW and not a partner using a pic of the VW). But people who read Autohebdo know perfectly that VW is doing rally, and is winning...

[Mirek]

I'm not really familiar with commercials of various carmakers as I have no TV (really :) ) but it's true I don't remember any VW rally related one. On the other hand there has been a lot of those from Škoda (at least here in CZ).

[dimviii]

I'm in no means in favour of Capito's shootout idea, in my opinion it isn't rallying at all. But to my knowledge, VW has been quite disappointed to the media coverage and promotion of WRC. We have to understand them a bit, they pour in millions for what? Lousy promotion and media services like crap? If promotion would have been and would be done in a correct way, Capito wouldn't need to ask these spectator-magnets to be made.

no,we haven t got to understand vw needs, to ruin the sport.
If they dont like,they can go away.

[makinen_fan]

I'm in no means in favour of Capito's shootout idea, in my opinion it isn't rallying at all. But to my knowledge, VW has been quite disappointed to the media coverage and promotion of WRC. We have to understand them a bit, they pour in millions for what? Lousy promotion and media services like crap? If promotion would have been and would be done in a correct way, Capito wouldn't need to ask these spectator-magnets to be made.

I understand that they are disappointed with RBMH promotion (we all are!), but will this idea solve anything? I expect that WRC will loose even more from the hardcore fans and gain nothing from it

[AdvEvo]

Some years ago I wrote something similar to the following on this forum;

" In the 70's we had Grp 4. The cars were fast and spectacular and exciting to watch.
In the 80's we had Grp B. The cars were fast and spectacular and exciting to watch.
In the 90's we had Grp A. The cars were fast and spectacular and exciting to watch.
In the 00's we had WRC's. The cars were fast and spectacular and exciting to watch."

As somebody wrote in an earlier post, a Grp4 BDA or E30 BMW is still a good spectacle when driven well ... 4 decades later.

As much as rally cars ought look like rally cars, sound like rally cars and go like rally cars, it is the driver who makes them spectacular on the stages and, as can be seen by the videos of Panizzi & Ragnotti, even 2WD cars can be exciting in the right hands.

The spectators perception of speed and spectacle is not a year by year comparison, it's an on event observation comparing competitors to their rivals.

For me the 70's was the era, simply because not since the Grp 4 days have we had a credible competition which was both accessible and affordable to top domestic competitors as well as those with factory support.

Imagine if golf, the world's most popular and televised spectator sport, was played every week by just half a dozen 'paying' players (not necessarily the most talented) whose equipment was so superior to every other players ensuring no one else came within 10 shots of them.
The sport would lose credibility and popularity very rapidly and very soon vanish from the television screens.

Yet this is exactly the scenario we've had in WRC since the advent of Grp B over 30 years ago. And we cannot understand why the sport is not popular.

Now imagine if you will, if Grp N became the WRC formula tomorrow (No, I'm not at all suggesting it should be).
However, if it were, immediately you'd have a hundred or so compliant and competitive cars around the world capable of being driven to WRC victory, at an affordable level, and probably a couple of dozen competitors all equally capable of competing at the top level.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that, had Grp N been the WRC formula for the past 10 years, we would not have 10 consecutive engravings of Sebastion on the trophy. And the majority of the present and recently departed WRC drivers would not have been in sight of a podium.

You'd have a competition which was accessible to those with the talent, and the grit necessary to make it happen, and one with real credibility. Until the WRC moves to a formula also used in domestic championships and is accessible to more than a handful of 'selected' players and a few with rich daddies, it'll fail to gain any traction or popularity.

A modern day Grp 4 is what we need.


So thru!!!


People are not stupid. Wrc and also r5 cars are buggy s with an manufactures shell around it and cost s a fortune to run. It s only for an happy few. Sound is boring and the cars have nothing in common with roadcars like in early days with group a gp4 etc.

[Jack4688`]

no,we haven t got to understand vw needs, to ruin the sport.
If they dont like,they can go away.

+1

[Jack4688`]

Capito's idea is like solving a house fire by demolishing the house. If he wants a sport that isn't rallying then maybe he should start his own sport.

To be honest some kind of stage-based heats-type championship wouldn't be too bad too watch - I personally would find it more interesting than Rallycross - but that concept has no place in any form of 'Rallying' as we know it. Maybe 'Capito Formula One' could end with a penalty shoot out and 'Capito Rugby' could end with seeing who could get a hole-in-one first :D

[Rally Power]

Capito's idea is like solving a house fire by demolishing the house. If he wants a sport that isn't rallying then maybe he should start his own sport.

I can simply add: f**k VW, f**k RB, f**k MH and f**k FIA if Mr. Todt let Capito mad dreams goes ahead...

PS: can someone explain why wasn't Eurosport Events chosen to promote WRC two years ago? Was RB/MH imposed by VW? Do we need a manufacturer that thinks it owns the sport???

[Franky]

I can simply add: f**k VW, f**k RB, f**k MH and f**k FIA if Mr. Todt let Capito mad dreams goes ahead...

PS: can someone explain why wasn't Eurosport Events chosen to promote WRC two years ago? Was RB/MH imposed by VW? Do we need a manufacturer that thinks it owns the sport???

Didn't Eurosport Events comment that RBMH had a better offer/package?

[Rallyper]

Rallying is rallying. Start with good media coverage. FIA is responsible for doing that. So far they have failed. If VW wants spectacular motorsports they could choose anything but rallying.
Using cars available for more drivers than rich ones and factorydrivers could be a solution, as long as they are loud and banging. Look at F1 which sounds like s**t and which many involved people have made complaints about...

[vino_93]

I'm not really familiar with commercials of various carmakers as I have no TV (really :) ) but it's true I don't remember any VW rally related one. On the other hand there has been a lot of those from Škoda (at least here in CZ).

I don't talk only about TV, but too in newspapers, radio, internet...

[COD]

In total honesty, compare the intensity of discussion here to that of say 10 years ago. Even the hardcore fans don't give a s**t anymore, so how can we expect anyone else to do so? And manufacturers rally inly to sell more cars. And because there is no interest, there is no added sale. Simple

[AndyRAC]

There's no need to change the sport drastically; ideally, cars would be cheaper and we'd have more Manufacturers and drivers. But, 'gimmicks' aren't needed. You don't come into a sport and decide it might need changing... you simply don't do that. You accept it's plus and minus points and get on with it.

I've said before the main issue is the Promotion; and that is what the problem is. It's still pretty rubbish. The TV doesn't really capture the spectacular enough - I saw a video on Twitter last night from Sanremo 1997; it told a story of the event, interviews, had a small technical section on brakes, and this all in 27mins.

RBMH aren't doing enough - TV should be for highlights/ review type programmes. They have RedBull TV for live streaming....So why not use it more often? Too many promoters don't actually promote - but sell TV rights and think that's okay.

[sollitt]

The problem with something like gr.4 or gr.A is that the world has changed through the years. ..... What once worked sometimes work again but I'm afraid it doesn't apply for motorsport. Absolute nonsense. A formula like Grp4 or Grp A is simply that ... a formula. It can be applied/adapted to fit any era.
There is no reason why the sport could not adopt a specification that is affordable and accessible to domestic competitors and in which they can then step up on to the world stage and be competitive.
GrpN, in it's day, could have provided the platform but they wouldn't have been spectacular enough. S2000 & R5 are certainly spectacular enough and manufacturers are producing the hardware. The cars are affordable to buy but are they too costly to run? Something in between?

Rallyper is exactly right. It's not for manufacturers to come and change the sport to suit themselves. They need to apply themselves to the nature of the sport.

[rallyfun]

There's no need to change the sport drastically; ideally, cars would be cheaper and we'd have more Manufacturers and drivers. But, 'gimmicks' aren't needed. You don't come into a sport and decide it might need changing... you simply don't do that. You accept it's plus and minus points and get on with it.

I've said before the main issue is the Promotion; and that is what the problem is. It's still pretty rubbish. The TV doesn't really capture the spectacular enough - I saw a video on Twitter last night from Sanremo 1997; it told a story of the event, interviews, had a small technical section on brakes, and this all in 27mins.

RBMH aren't doing enough - TV should be for highlights/ review type programmes. They have RedBull TV for live streaming....So why not use it more often? Too many promoters don't actually promote - but sell TV rights and think that's okay.

I think RBMH have no idea about WRC and how to promote it. We don't expect miracles but at least solid highlights on free view channels at the end of rally day, lets say same way as Eurosport used to do it in 2005-2009. Anything more would be great. But if RBMH don't get it maybe they should leave, since they came nothing new or better happened to WRC, it's even worse in fact.

[rallyfiend]

I think RBMH have no idea about WRC and how to promote it. We don't expect miracles but at least solid highlights on free view channels at the end of rally day, lets say same way as Eurosport used to do it in 2005-2009. Anything more would be great. But if RBMH don't get it maybe they should leave, since they came nothing new or better happened to WRC, it's even worse in fact.

Between 2005 - 2009 those highlights were just broadcast by Eurosport.

They were actually created by North One Sport. They were the same highlights that were on TV in Australia and a few other countries.

[dimviii]

We’re happy to welcome our new Technical Director Nino Frison into the team @HyundaiWRC !
He will head up engineering teams & development of i20
Nino has a wealth of experience in international #motorsport from single seaters, including roles in numerous #F1 team, to the #WRC.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoJbKmDIEAEBhGY.jpg


We’ve also revealed today that we have recently inaugurated our engine dyno to accelerate i20 #WRC engine development and testing processes

[Eli]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114036, hope they'll come up with something good

[MJW]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114036, hope they'll come up with something good
On the same day as British publication Motoring News has a feature reporting what DR thinks is wrong with WRC and how 'he might like another shot at it' - In summary he says, forget TV, internet is the way forward, theer is no need for clover leaf routes (anymore - to be fair, especially as they were his idea) and he cant see teh benefit of R5 cars. DR says cars are too boring and should take a leaf out of GT3's book, "cars should be noisy, aggressive looking and something that people should aspire to, current cars dont have that"
We will see what happens.

[AndyRAC]

Blimey, DR had changed his tune. Being outside of the WRC has made him realise what is wrong with it. He actually said a lot of those things in January at the Autosport Show.
Live TV is old news, it's all about streaming on the internet.

And I actually agree about the cars; who honestly aspires to own a DS3, i20, Polo R....When I win the lottery, I won't be rushing to buy one of them, albeit they're nice, solid, reliable cars.

Is anybody brave enough to suggest turning their back on the hot hatch/ family runabout? And going for something more spectacular? I don't think they are. More of the same I expect.....

[Rally Power]

Didn't Eurosport Events comment that RBMH had a better offer/package?

How could they've said it if they have a global TV channel and the experience of IRC?! Plus, EE was the right player to get a synergy between WRC and ERC, avoiding a clash that will probably happen again in a near future. What could FIA expected better???

Like many of you are saying, RB/MH don't do enough, so why on earth doesn't the FIA throw out their contract? In any commercial association if one of the parts doesn't fullfit their purposes there's a legal reason to dissolve it.

I'm really disappointed with Todt's choice and current approach. Above all, he's a rally guy and surely knows that EE is the right partner to promote rally sport.

[Rally Power]

Blimey, DR had changed his tune. Being outside of the WRC has made him realise what is wrong with it. He actually said a lot of those things in January at the Autosport Show.
Live TV is old news, it's all about streaming on the internet.

And I actually agree about the cars; who honestly aspires to own a DS3, i20, Polo R....When I win the lottery, I won't be rushing to buy one of them, albeit they're nice, solid, reliable cars.

Is anybody brave enough to suggest turning their back on the hot hatch/ family runabout? And going for something more spectacular? I don't think they are. More of the same I expect.....

TV still is a powerfull media toll. Don't throw it away too soon...

About cars tech definition, it's a permanent debating topic (now it seems to be Maxi Rally turn) but all we need is to make them more affordable.

R5 seems to be a nice compromise, but it would be better to open their homologation process in order to involve a larger number of tuners/builders.

The same for other R cars; it's ridiculous how few of this cars are homologated these days. In the 80's and 90's almost all makes had a reasonable number of Gr.A/N cars, now we only have a small bunch of manus involved at the sport, producing a very limited number of R models.

[Jack4688`]

I don't mind the current regs or the R5s but the problem with them is there isn't enough disparity with the body styles. Almost all S2000-based rally cars and the R5s are 3 door superminis. The only exceptions I can think of are the Fabia S2000, a 5 door supermini and the Toyota Corolla & Auris S2000s - 5 door compact (or whatever one size up from supermini is) hatchbacks. If I have forgotten any please chime in :D

I don't know if there is any way regulations could successfully encourage use of more body styles but surely increasing minimum size would help as otherwise the manufacturers are limited pretty much to only using superminis.

In an ideal dream-world I'd have something like 2011 WRC but with similar measures to cut cost as R5 but the body style open to 'prototypes'. By that I mean Ford may enter the championship with something looking very Ford-like but they can sex-up the body shape instead of making it look like a Fiesta. Toyota could make a car looking distinctly Toyota-ish with a 3 door coupe body and call it, for example, 'Celica GT-Four' even though the road car doesn't exist.

The cars would be interesting to the fans because they're not limited to whatever boring crap the manufacturer sells but they'd have the VW, Ford, Citroen, Hyundai, Toyota etc. 'family face'. It's like Group-B for modern times. I personally hate mentioning Group-B because it's silly to live in the past, but I think having a 'prototype' rally car is a fairly simple (please prove me wrong :D) way of making spectacular looking rally cars - without resorting to £250,000 homologation specials with too much power to be safely hurtling through a forest or alpine road with and fuel tanks mounted under the occupants and magnesium everywhere to light up in a ball of flames!

Dream world I know but that's just my two-pennies worth!

[Lousada]

Absolute nonsense. A formula like Grp4 or Grp A is simply that ... a formula. It can be applied/adapted to fit any era.
There is no reason why the sport could not adopt a specification that is affordable and accessible to domestic competitors and in which they can then step up on to the world stage and be competitive.
GrpN, in it's day, could have provided the platform but they wouldn't have been spectacular enough. S2000 & R5 are certainly spectacular enough and manufacturers are producing the hardware. The cars are affordable to buy but are they too costly to run? Something in between?

Rallyper is exactly right. It's not for manufacturers to come and change the sport to suit themselves. They need to apply themselves to the nature of the sport.

S2000/R5 affordable? Depends on your definition of affordable I suppose... Without the need for homologations and homologated parts, cars of equal performance would be much much cheaper...

[Allyc85]

Just putting this out there so don't flame me but....

As costs are such an issue what about adding in many standard parts or maybe even a silhouette formula, even if just for the next few years?

Discuss..

[N.O.T]

no

end of discussion

[Lousada]

Blimey, DR had changed his tune. Being outside of the WRC has made him realise what is wrong with it. He actually said a lot of those things in January at the Autosport Show.
Live TV is old news, it's all about streaming on the internet.
TV aims for the general masses, internet only aims for the current fans. Its the age old question, should I want 1 euro from one hundred people or 100 euro from a single person?


And I actually agree about the cars; who honestly aspires to own a DS3, i20, Polo R....When I win the lottery, I won't be rushing to buy one of them, albeit they're nice, solid, reliable cars.

Is anybody brave enough to suggest turning their back on the hot hatch/ family runabout? And going for something more spectacular? I don't think they are. More of the same I expect.....
Well lets be fair, who ever aspired to own a Peugeot 205 or Mini Cooper or Ford Focus? Yet they are supposedly all classic rallycars. In my opinion rallycars have always been beefed up versions of common streetcars. Rallycars that became streetcars like the Mitsubishi Lancer Subaru Impreza or Lancia Stratos have been the exception to that rule, not the norm.

[dimviii]

no

end of discussion

look your inbox Greg.

[Mirek]

S2000/R5 affordable? Depends on your definition of affordable I suppose... Without the need for homologations and homologated parts, cars of equal performance would be much much cheaper...

I specifically asked FIA technical steward about this point. The answer was that they don't want to allow free supply of parts because of a) safety concerns and b) to protect business of those who homologate the parts. Take it as You like...

[Lousada]

Just putting this out there so don't flame me but....

As costs are such an issue what about adding in many standard parts or maybe even a silhouette formula, even if just for the next few years?

Discuss..

Motorsport is about the cars first and second. Look into a Fiesta R5 once and you have seen them all. And you have seen them all for the next few years because the development on R5's is minimal. And then we wonder why people are gradually losing interest?

[Lousada]

I specifically asked FIA technical steward about this point. The answer was that they don't want to allow free supply of parts because of a) safety concerns and b) to protect business of those who homologate the parts. Take it as You like...

Well... at least they were honest to you about the real reason (the second)...

[giù tutto!]

Maybe the best solution would have been to ban 4wd immediately when Quattro came, like they did in Formula 1 with Lotus...

It’s a little bit funny, but very popular national series are driven with old school technology, 2WD non-turbo cars. NASCAR is good example for the reason, that when the product is good, all the manufacturers want to be there.

My point is: When lot of people are interested about the product, the media and the money will be there also. And when there is lot of people, media and money, the manufacturers will be there also, for sure.

Media only can’t save the current situation. Capito’s idea won’t definitely save the current situation. Artificial respiration will keep the patient alive for a moment, but without big change we will loose our beloved sport like we remember it.

No need to change the original nature of the sport. But many people want to see, hear and smell something different comparing to their ordinary day.
Why can’t WorldRallyCar be 800-900kg, tube frame, RWD, non-turbo, max 3.0 litre engine with 10000rpm rev limiter and sequential gearbox silhouette car? Could be build by anyone, no mandatory to be an official car manufacturer.

Would you like to watch that kind of WRC cars?

[MJW]

You have a point :-) totally opposite to the way cars are going. In a few year 1.6 litre will be considered big engines. I do agree that the current power to grip levels are not ideal for spectacle. Why not go 2wd?

[Mk2 RS2000]

When we look back at the days past was it the cars we remember and salute or was it the drivers. If we look at golf do we follow the make of club used or cap worn or do we follow the golfer, likewise the skier or the brand of skis, the cyclist or the make of bicycle. The point is that we follow the people in the sport rather than the equipment that they use and if we wish to increase the following of the sport then more exposure time needs to be given to the participants rather than their equipment.

[Rally Power]

No need to change the original nature of the sport. But many people want to see, hear and smell something different comparing to their ordinary day.
Why can’t WorldRallyCar be 800-900kg, tube frame, RWD, non-turbo, max 3.0 litre engine with 10000rpm rev limiter and sequential gearbox silhouette car? Could be build by anyone, no mandatory to be an official car manufacturer.

Would you like to watch that kind of WRC cars?

Historically rallying it's more linked with close to production cars than with prototypes like you suggest. With few exceptions, some Gr.4 machines and the Gr. B era, almost every rally car used in WRC were based in large production models. For many fans the last Gr. A generation still represents the best compromise in rally cars technical layout.

Turbo and 4wd were welcomed improvements to the sport. They've allowed a greater adaptation over the different surfaces and climate conditions. Going back to 2wd would be a technical downside and could easily put a pressure on the surface issue, affecting the long established gravel predominance.

I fully agree that we need to get back to the sports nature, but that nature was mainly damaged by mixing up each rally individuality when the 9 to 5 schedule and the clover leaf format were imposed (sorry, I’m repeating myself), so probably it would make sense to apply a more diversified and challenging calendar rather than being permanently questioning rally cars technical definition.

[anstis]

Historically rallying it's more linked with close to production cars than with prototypes like you suggest. With few exceptions, some Gr.4 machines and the Gr. B era, almost every rally car used in WRC were based in large production models. For many fans the last Gr. A generation still represents the best compromise in rally cars technical layout.



Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only significant difference between Group A rules and WRC rules (at least initially) the number of cars a manufacturer had to produce in order to be elegible to comptete? I know what you mean though, those Group A cars were choice, but it maybe reflected the technology of the time rather than the rules?


I fully agree that we need to get back to the sports nature, but that nature was mainly damaged by mixing up each rally individuality when the 9 to 5 schedule and the clover leaf format were imposed (sorry, I’m repeating myself), so probably it would make sense to apply a more diversified and challenging calendar rather than being permanently questioning rally cars technical definition



Yep, fully agree with this point. Completly! Can find it hard to get excited about most of the rallies because they almost all run to exactly the same format, in one small corner of the country. Maybe a lot of organisers have their hands tied by only being allowed 2 days for a 2 pass reece (amoung many of other factors too no doubt.)

[sollitt]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only significant difference between Group A rules and WRC rules (at least initially) the number of cars a manufacturer had to produce in order to be elegible to compete? Yes & no. Grp A cars were production based cars with a minimum build requirement. Essentially there was a requirement for a road going version of the rally car.
With WRC cars there needed only to be a production car providing the body shell. There was no requirement for this car to be 4WD or have the same engine size ... or in fact any of the componentry.
Whilst the initial thoughts were that removing the need for the production car would lessen costs and entice more manufacturers, the freedom to push boundaries with technological advancements added to the costs and limited the numbers who would compete.

[giù tutto!]

For sure we will follow the golfer, skier, cyclist not the equipment, as long as the difference is made by their skills, not by their wallet. Think about the scenario like this: if only those who can afford would be the golfers, skiers and cyclist, or in soccer world championship the players would be only those who could pay something between 5 to 10 million euros for the place in the national team. How long people would be interested about that?

The idea is to cut the costs. Turbo and 4wd is ideal for the performance, but it’s like a Pandora’s box also. It will always be expensive, if we are thinking about the amount of rallies and km which are driven in the world rally championship. It’s not a rocket science to build fast 4wd turbo car and drive rallycross, hillclimb or small rallies for a hobby.

Lot of average drivers have been champions at the national level only because they have had enough money to buy good 4wd turbo car. In the 2wd field it’s not so easy, no matter how much money you have, cause there are plenty of very skilful drivers.

Why need to hanging on the idea to base to the production cars? Would it be enough if the car look like a production car by the cover like they have already been for many years. With the strict rules like in NASCAR the cost could be easier to control. As long as we want to keep the highest technology in this sport, it will always be to highest price also.

Summa summarum:
With the cheaper but spectacular equipment it would be possible to bring back the charismatic and skilful drivers, who are the heart and the soul of the product.

[Mirek]

Yes & no. Grp A cars were production based cars with a minimum build requirement. Essentially there was a requirement for a road going version of the rally car.
With WRC cars there needed only to be a production car providing the body shell. There was no requirement for this car to be 4WD or have the same engine size ... or in fact any of the componentry.
Whilst the initial thoughts were that removing the need for the production car would lessen costs and entice more manufacturers, the freedom to push boundaries with technological advancements added to the costs and limited the numbers who would compete.

You are wrong with Your assumptions or better to say You concentrate only on price for end-customers - teams. Bringing gr.A back would be much more expensive for car manufacturers than to continue current WRC concept hence I'm sure manufacturers would not be interested at all. One single WRC car is more expensive than one gr.A car was. That's for sure. But You don't see the multiply higher expenses behind production of road-going rally cars. There is also the fact they don't suit modern standards of ecology and fuel efficiency (these law-based requirements exist and there is no use in pretending they are not).

[AdvEvo]

You are wrong with Your assumptions or better to say You concentrate only on price for end-customers - teams. Bringing gr.A back would be much more expensive for car manufacturers than to continue current WRC concept hence I'm sure manufacturers would not be interested at all. One single WRC car is more expensive than one gr.A car was. That's for sure. But You don't see the multiply higher expenses behind production of road-going rally cars. There is also the fact they don't suit modern standards of ecology and fuel efficiency (these law-based requirements exist and there is no use in pretending they are not).


Exactly and thats why autosport is going to DIE! most spectaters/poeple don t want small engine s or electic race/rally cars. Why do you think rallycross is popular. It bangs and spit flames and light up all 4 wheels with 600 hp. Downgrading and fuel saving programs makes all motorsports more worse everytime.

I understand that group a cars is more expensive for manufactures but if spectators are not interested in wrc rally buggy s with small engines how much value does wrc have for them anyway if you look at the numbers. Factory rally teams are there to sell more cars. If it brings nothing they are gone from the sport!

Historic rallying/racing is gaining more and more interest why? Because you can drive with real engines. Cars are a joy to drive and go sideways everywhere. Engines rev high and the running cost are much lower than wrc and r5 cars. And you have more choice in different brands.

[Mirek]

Exactly and thats why autosport is going to DIE! most spectaters/poeple don t want small engine s or electic race/rally cars. Why do you think rallycross is popular. It bangs and spit flames and light up all 4 wheels with 600 hp. Downgrading and fuel saving programs makes all motorsport more worse everytime.

I agree with You.


I understand that group a cars is more expensive for manufactures but if spectators are not interested in wrc rally buggy s with small engines how much value does wrc have for them anyway if you look at the numbers. Factory rally teams are there to sell more cars. If it brings nothing there gone from the sport!

You don't need road-going rallycars to have 600Hp beasts. You can use existing regulations and put there 600 Hp engine. It can be done without rising cost. The only point against that is safety. Rally is not rallycross. I'm afraid nobody will ever agree on regulations with so powerful cars.

[TheFlyingTuga]

The only point against that is safety. Rally is not rallycross. I'm afraid nobody will ever agree on regulations with so powerful cars.

My 2 cents on the matter, is that is what's wrong right now. I'm kind of a young male, and started to watch rallying in the 90's. But still, for me rallying is about defying the laws of commom sense. There's something special in seeing a little car like a 205 or a Metro blasting through a forest powered by a supercar power. Driver's back then where seen more like driving gods, right know they're just guys that drive really weel, because the risk factor to a non sport guy it's almost non (I know it's still a lot). If we analyze other sports, the MotoGP still on top of the list for many people that aren't fans, per se, of motorsport, just because bikes carry more risks than cars. And even if I not a bike fan, I've got to admite, there's something special about seeing a guy going nuts at 300km/h in Manx TT for example.

Group B was something special, but the cars we're tottally unsafe. But, to be fair, in this time in history they can comeback beeing safe. Construction materials have been improved, and engineerings have more knowledge of how to make more resistant cars... the only problem will be some cost rising :S

[Barreis]

It wouldn't be that bad if Loeb didn't win 9 titles in the row. Now it's needed time that sport can become interesting to the large crowd again. Also Eurosport would be much better choice but better offer means more money, so that's it.

[RAS007]

It wouldn't be that bad if Loeb didn't win 9 titles in the row. Now it's needed time that sport can become interesting to the large crowd again.

Couldn't agree more. After Gronholm retired, Loeb basically sleepwalked his way to 5 titles in a row, with practically no competition. Apart from anything else, that is just a total bore.

[giù tutto!]

Well, I can't see how Formula 1, Rally Cross, Drag Racing, NASCAR, WRC or national level rallying meets the terms of modern standard ecology and fuel efficiency at the moment. It’s a hypocrite to think that we’re doing green motorsport, which will attract plenty of people.
The highest level of the sport have to be the best on every area; drivers, cars, rallies. No compromises.

And it’s not Loeb's fault if the others are so bad. It’s just a result of the existing system. The last decent resistor was Marcus Gronholm who had skills, balls and charisma. The battles between them were epic.

[wrc1600]

And it’s not Loeb's fault if the others are so bad. It’s just a result of the existing system. The last decent resistor was Marcus Gronholm who had skills, balls and charisma. The battles between them were epic.

Well said.

[OldF]

I listened to Colin Clark’s interview of Jost Capito (http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/media/podcasts/page/114--80--.html) and first I must say that Jost has to improve his math skills. 100 s difference over 300 km is not 1/10 of a second but 3/10 of a second. The shootout would be of course exiting but for me it’s still the traditional solution.

David Richard would concentrate on internet but I don’t see the difference between internet or traditional TV channels if the material is there. I can watch a program traditionally from TV or via internet when it’s broadcasted. The difference is that If I can’t watch a program when it’s live, I can watch it later via internet. Of course internet would give the opportunity to add some specials for hard core fans without steeling the time from TV channels prime time.

[MJW]

I thought the report in today's 28/5/14 issue of Motorsport News quoting Yves Matton about WRC was interesting. Basicallyatton aays costs in WRC are out of control, and FIA should ensure that at the next generation (2017) cars that FIA must not let what happened in S1600 and S2000 when ceiling costs went out of contol. He quoted things like special lightweight glass etc. I got the impression thst Yves wants R5 to be the wrc class. What I also found interesting was that Yves wants to halve costs of the rallies themselves. Yves suggests a Thursday morning shakedown, thursday evening ceremonial start and msybe a few stages. Long friday and saturdsy, and if there has to br stages on a sunday limit this to 40kms. Yves says this will be a big saving on hotel costs for teams and coupled with cheaper cars could make the investment required attractive for more manufactureres. I agree with him.

[Mirek]

They can start with not bringing a whole town with them...

In the future they can also use stock fuel. If it's from single supplier there is no need to be afraid of uncertain quality. Stock fuel with bigger restrictor makes no change of car appearance.

[AndyRAC]

Costs - as always is the biggest issue. Well keep to a sensible budget regarding cars....and spend less on 'other things' - but we all know that will not happen. It's a World Championship - it is going to cost. However, it has to give value for money - and a return on investment.

As for the routes - they have to be different; a WRC event has to be an 'EVENT'...it has to be special. 40km on a Sunday is almost a waste of time.

[rallyfun]

I didn't expect that hotel costs these days are the biggest problem for teams.

[MJW]

I didn't expect that hotel costs these days are the biggest problem for teams.
I am not saying that hotel cost is the biggest problem but consider its €200 per room per night, based on a team on 80 staff, say 10 on single room status, with 30 twin rooms, include the pre event test and recce, WRC rallies are 10 days long for the professionals. Do the maths.

[Franky]

I am not saying that hotel cost is the biggest problem but consider its €200 per room per night, based on a team on 80 staff, say 10 on single room status, with 30 twin rooms, include the pre event test and recce, WRC rallies are 10 days long for the professionals. Do the maths.

If the person responsible for all the travels only manages to get average room price of 200 Euros/night with 80 people, he or she should be fired.

And as Mirek already wrote a few posts ago, they should start with bringing less stuff and staff.

[tommeke_B]

A privateer entering a WRC event has something like maximum 10x10m space for service, while manufacturer teams claim a space big enough to build a factory on... Of course it's a difficult question, as teams claim they need space to invite their guests, and without those guests there wouldn't be any rally either (something many people tend to forget).

But what Mirek said is a very good point. Letting all cars drive on normal (98-100 octane) fuel would make it cheaper. Giving the cars a bigger restrictor to give the "lost power" back (or even a bit more) would be good...
Making a short calculation, for example for Sardinia:
365km SS x (let's say) 65l/100km (or can anyone correct on what a modern WRC car's fuel consumption is?)
1050km RS x (let's say) 20l/100km
Would make a fuel consumption of +- 450 liters. With current fuel price, 5,5 euro/l for WRC fuel, against something like 1,6 euro/l for commercial fuel in most countries, it would make a difference of +-1750 euros for an event like Sardinia, which is probably close to the average WRC event in terms of length. For a team of 2 cars this would save already roughly 50 000 euros/season, without even calculating shakedown and the countless testing kilometers.

Most important is that this would save a lot of money for smaller teams and local drivers, because that's what we are missing most in WRC events. Last year I was in Sweden, I think there was one (1!) Swedish driver entering, is this normal?! FIA should not only look after the big manufacturer teams, but should work on making the sport more attractive and affordable on a lower level too, by lowering entry fees in WRC events for example. If they want to, they can do this for sure.

[Mirek]

WRC cars sure consume around 100l/100km maybe even more. Naturally aspirated S2000 take around 50-60 litres, gr.N turbo cars take 70-90 litres on stages I think.

[rallyfiend]

A privateer entering a WRC event has something like maximum 10x10m space for service, while manufacturer teams claim a space big enough to build a factory on... Of course it's a difficult question, as teams claim they need space to invite their guests, and without those guests there wouldn't be any rally either (something many people tend to forget).

! FIA should not only look after the big manufacturer teams, but should work on making the sport more attractive and affordable on a lower level too, by lowering entry fees in WRC events for example. If they want to, they can do this for sure.

I'm sure if a privateer offered to pay the 32,000 per event that a manufacturer pays, they could get the same amount of space in a service park!

Entry fees are set in a maximum by the FIA - it's up to each individual Event Organiser to set what to charge. So really, it's up to the Organisers to decide the entry fee. Perhaps there needs to be a bit of competition amongst the organisers to compete for the number of 'customers' they can get. Because that's how they should be considered by Organisers - customers.

[Allyc85]

Costs - as always is the biggest issue. Well keep to a sensible budget regarding cars....and spend less on 'other things' - but we all know that will not happen. It's a World Championship - it is going to cost. However, it has to give value for money - and a return on investment.

As for the routes - they have to be different; a WRC event has to be an 'EVENT'...it has to be special. 40km on a Sunday is almost a waste of time.

No it is a waste of time for both teams and the fans who fork out their hard earned money to actually go watch these events! I would rather 2 days packed full of stages starting early morning to late at night, rather than a short limp finish on a sunday.

Seriously how hard can it be to sort out the WRC?

[OldF]

It has been some discussion about this on this forum but I don’t remember the thread.

FIA Institute to probe spinal injuries

http://www.irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00006789&10

[OldF]

In this article it says that the consumption for the 2.0 litre WRC engine was on a typical stage 70 l / 100km.

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1wvd5/RaceEngineTechnology/resources/19.htm (page 31, left column)

“Armfield reports that on a typical rally stage, fuel consumption is about 0,7 litres per kilometer. There has been a slight reduction in consumption from that of the previous 2.0-litre port-injected engine, primarily due to the reduction in restrictor air restrictor area. With the 6% reduction of restrictor area, the air flow has fallen from 748 kg/h to 720 kg/h – a drop of 4% - and the fuel consumption is commensurate with that. At peak power speed, fuel consumption is 51 kg/h.”

[Mirek]

It has been some discussion about this on this forum but I don’t remember the thread.

FIA Institute to probe spinal injuries

http://www.irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00006789&10

Our driver's association has been working on this issue for several years. I hope they can get in contact with FIA institute and give them the results of investigation which was done with co-operation with medical authorities.

[rallyfun]

I am not saying that hotel cost is the biggest problem but consider its per €200 room per night, based on a team on 80 staff, say 10 on single room status, with 30 twin rooms, include the pre event test and recce, WRC rallies are 10 days long for the professionals. Do the maths.

Believe me you need to try hard to find €200 per night hotel. I never spent that much on hotel for the whole event.

[bluuford]

When you have a team of 80 and you book a hotel for a half a week then 50€ is mostly the maximum limit for twin room. So, max 40 rooms for the team, it is approximately 2000 per night. and 10 000-12 000 per rally. Whole season cost approximately 150 000 eur for accomodation. Take one day from eaxh rally, it is approximately 25 000 saved per season...
The point is that if you save something from everywhere, you get a bigger number by the end of year.

[rallyfiend]

When you have a team of 80 and you book a hotel for a half a week then 50€ is mostly the maximum limit for twin room. So, max 40 rooms for the team, it is approximately 2000 per night. and 10 000-12 000 per rally. Whole season cost approximately 150 000 eur for accomodation. Take one day from eaxh rally, it is approximately 25 000 saved per season...
The point is that if you save something from everywhere, you get a bigger number by the end of year.

I think M-Sport would be the only 'Manufacturer' team in which any staff share rooms...

[rallyfun]

When you have a team of 80 and you book a hotel for a half a week then 50€ is mostly the maximum limit for twin room. So, max 40 rooms for the team, it is approximately 2000 per night. and 10 000-12 000 per rally. Whole season cost approximately 150 000 eur for accomodation. Take one day from eaxh rally, it is approximately 25 000 saved per season...
The point is that if you save something from everywhere, you get a bigger number by the end of year.

Will that kind of savings make any difference for 40 mln euro budget team? It's just a fraction of %... Anyway I think the message was that teams don't get any value for money they spend. Nothing has been done since Mr Ciesla joined WRC and there is no good news coming as well. If WRC get proper TV and internet coverage then we won't read any complains form any team.

[Barreis]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114190

[journeyman racer]

Would it be a big deal to have longer rallies, but maybe smaller season, 6-8 rounds? Manufacturers look for any reason not to join a series, or get out of one. I'm not certain of the exact changes being proposed for the WRC, but I get an impression it breaks away from "proper" rallying. If this is the case, then it'll just lead to a further deterioration of the series.

From what I see here with V8supercars. Whenever a series fiddles around with it's sporting regs, in an attempt to generate more interest from tv, it just leads to less interest from tv down the track. Sometimes, you just have to accept where you're at. Off-road motorsport is a smaller industry than circuit racing. While the WRC is of equal value to F1 (if not, more) as a driving competition. It doesn't have the natural advantages F1 has commercially. You can't make a plant grow from a rock.

[Jack4688`]

I like that idea, but maybe 8-10 rallies. We could have events going all over northern Italy, all over North Wales, northern England & into central Scotland, all over Sweden & Norway etc etc.

Unfortunately I fear it's more likely the manufacturers will want to hit more markets, so long as they don't go back up to 14+ events like we had about 10 years ago. The manufacturers would have more sway in this matter too

[AndyRAC]

Some good points above;

When you keep messing around with your format; it just suggests you have no confidence in your product and/ or you don't know what you're doing. Rallying is NOT F1 or RallyX, so stop trying to make it like them. It's meant to be a test of speed and endurance of man and machine.

I think going for 8-10 events would be better for the WRC; can it really support 14-16 events? Not in my opinion. Too many involved think the sport is bigger than it actually is.

[Barreis]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114201

[Nornbugger]

I am not saying that hotel cost is the biggest problem but consider its €200 per room per night, based on a team on 80 staff, say 10 on single room status, with 30 twin rooms, include the pre event test and recce, WRC rallies are 10 days long for the professionals. Do the maths.

I did the maths and 10 people had no room to sleep in :-(

Do I get a prize for the 1st correct answer?

[wrc1600]

Would it be a big deal to have longer rallies, but maybe smaller season, 6-8 rounds? Manufacturers look for any reason not to join a series, or get out of one. I'm not certain of the exact changes being proposed for the WRC, but I get an impression it breaks away from "proper" rallying. If this is the case, then it'll just lead to a further deterioration of the series.

From what I see here with V8supercars. Whenever a series fiddles around with it's sporting regs, in an attempt to generate more interest from tv, it just leads to less interest from tv down the track. Sometimes, you just have to accept where you're at. Off-road motorsport is a smaller industry than circuit racing. While the WRC is of equal value to F1 (if not, more) as a driving competition. It doesn't have the natural advantages F1 has commercially. You can't make a plant grow from a rock.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I remember about 8-10 years ago Subaru's budget was about 80 mln euros. The biggest budget now is about half of it. Are all those talks about promoter problems or they just look for excuses as you noticed?

[A FONDO]

Manufacturers look for any reason not to join a series, or get out of one.
This is true. Manufacturers will always be unhappy with the length of the rallies. They only want to have the headlines "Driver X with our car did a great result" after spending as less as possible. They approve spending only when it gives them advantage for a certain victory.
That's why the rally sport must be centered around the privateers, as it was in the beginning - rich people enjoying their expensive hobby. But with this greedy corrupt french governing body this will realistically not happen soon.