Mobile phones & tablets thread

[Mark]

Should people be able to patent minimalism though? I'll admit that the S1 and 3gs are quite similar. But when you put out a product that is so basic in design, I really don't feel that you should be able to protect it, because, well..... it's just a very basic design. I bought 2 2l bottles of Pepsi last night and I could be wrong, but they're pretty much the same as the 2l bottles of pop that all drinks come in. They're hardly designed at all are they?

On the contrary, there are a lot of design elements that go into the likes of a 2 litre pop bottle. It just that it isn't heavily protected.

[Daniel]

Sorry guys I think you might find LG did the coloured strip round the edge of the telly 1st, although theirs was blue IIRC, in which case the idea of Samsung patenting it seems to be exactly what you are arguing apple are guilty of

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

True! But samsung seem to integrate it into the frame whereas LG have it as a separate strip :p

http://static.trustedreviews.com/94/9e8575/c09d/10504-lg32lh4000img1.jpg
http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/news/stories/2008/4/4405/Samsung_Launches_Touch_of_Color_LCD_TVs-1.jpg

Plus Samsung's is red :p

[donKey jote]

I didn't even know here was an iPad 3.

there iSn't, iThink iT's called the iNew iPad iNstead :p

[donKey jote]

The iPad 4 is out!


Wi-Fi
16GB £399
32GB £479
64GB £559
Wi-Fi + Cellular
16GB £499
32GB £579
64GB £659

cheers, now what's that in proper money ? :andrea: :p

[CaptainRaiden]

hmm... looks like I'll be waiting for quotes on the iPad 4 :p

Don't Upgrade to the iPad 4 (http://gizmodo.com/5954292/dont-upgrade-to-the-ipad-4)

;)

[Mark]

Yes if you were thinking of buying an iPad anyway - then again it's not as if you have the choice of buying the iPad 3 any more.

If you think about it, Apple had little choice buy to ditch the iPad 3. Purely because of the move to the new dock connector, for Christmas you now have an iPad Mini with lightening and could have had an iPad 3 with 30pin, you aren't going to buy the iPad 3 because just because of the dock connector it appears well out of date, so they had to at least introduce a new version with the new dock connector, so that customers don't choose iPad Mini over iPad.

The article is right of course because there will be a lighter version out next year, but that's in a year.

[Mark]

So it's the Windows 8 and 'surface' launch tonight. Daniel; you getting one?

[BleAivano]

So it's the Windows 8 and 'surface' launch tonight. Daniel; you getting one?

I would really like a Surface Win 8 pro but there is no way that I could afford one right now.
And besides there are other things that are higher up on my "want list".

[Dave B]

We're in the process of sourcing a new computer, and bang for buck nothing comes close to a good old fashioned laptop. Horses for courses, I appreciate, but IMO you still can't beat a proper keyboard and huge storage for actually getting stuff done. The tablet we got is fine for browsing and media viewing, but utterly hopeless for productivity.

[Daniel]

We're in the process of sourcing a new computer, and bang for buck nothing comes close to a good old fashioned laptop. Horses for courses, I appreciate, but IMO you still can't beat a proper keyboard and huge storage for actually getting stuff done. The tablet we got is fine for browsing and media viewing, but utterly hopeless for productivity.

The beauty of the Surface Pro is that with the touch cover or type cover it can double as a laptop and a tablet. But the Surface RT doesn't have the power or compatibility of a laptop sadly.

[Daniel]

So it's the Windows 8 and 'surface' launch tonight. Daniel; you getting one?

Of course not! I don't see the point in the iPad and this is just a Microsoft iPad. It's a device for consuming content and can't run x86 apps. If I was desperate for a tablet right now I'd probably put one at the top of my list because they're meant to be very well built and of course I'm a great fan of the Metro design. But iPad type devices aren't really my thing.

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/microsoft-surface-rt-pro-specifications-comparison-144545

Some useful tips
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/windows-8-keyboard-mouse-survival-guide-144590

[BleAivano]

Of course not! I don't see the point in the iPad and this is just a Microsoft iPad. It's a device for consuming content and can't run x86 apps. If I was desperate for a tablet right now I'd probably put one at the top of my list because they're meant to be very well built and of course I'm a great fan of the Metro design. But iPad type devices aren't really my thing.

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/microsoft-surface-rt-pro-specifications-comparison-144545

Some useful tips
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/windows-8-keyboard-mouse-survival-guide-144590


The win 8 pro version can.

[Daniel]

The win 8 pro version can.
Yes, but that's not out till after Christmas ;)

[Daniel]

Clever marketing to release it for the Easter rush :)
If only Microsoft actually had the power to make people wait...... I suspect that Apple will be worried though, they'll probably trot out a slightly better iPad while Microsoft delivers a tablet that you can use as a tablet as well as a laptop which will be fine for most people. When faced with an iPad or Surface Pro, I suspect a few people might see the merit in a Surface.....

[CaptainRaiden]

Surface Pro is the only tablet that I'm actually interested in, spec and software wise.

But then again, I keep thinking what a kick-ass gaming PC I could build with $1000. :p

[Mark]

Apple won't be releasing a new iPad until this time next year. I would have thought the introduction of the iPad 4 now would make that clear.

And yes we won't see a crossover iPad laptop type thing as after all Apple are just as keen to sell their various laptops as they are iPads.

[Mark]

But it is an interesting move from MS combining the mobile and desktop environments even if the likes of x86 vs ARM vs Desktop vs Metro... oops "New interface" means the whole thing is rather retarded. Apple still have completely separate mobile and desktop/laptop OS. Despite Jobbs claiming initially that the iPhone ran on the same OS.

(Well the kernel is probably similar but that's as far as it goes!)

[Daniel]

I don't think Apple are going to be worried. If they wanted to bridge the gap between laptop and tablet I'm pretty sure they would have attempted it by now. I certainly wouldn't buy a laptop and a tablet that looks and performs like a laptop, there would be no point. Might as well have a laptop and a tablet to take about. I think Apple are playing the safe game by sticking to their design philosophy and keeping the iPad for what it was originally meant for. After all they don't want to steal customers away from their laptop range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why would you not want a tablet that could double as a laptop? If you could buy a cover for your iPad that turned it into a laptop then I bet you would!

[Daniel]

I use the iPad to play a few games, do twitter and facebook, surf the Internet, store photos to show family and browse through myself, play music... I don't do CAD, photoshop, Lightroom, video editing, spreadsheets, reports etc on an iPad and wouldn't want to. They were purchased and have completely separate uses to each other. The ipad is a small convenient device that is easy to pick up and use instantly, and can be taken away with minimal fuss. I was given a 90 quid Bluetooth keyboard which worked fine, but it wasn't something I wanted to carry around. I eBayed it.

This is why I don't get the hardware arguments when discussing iPads. It's powerful enough for what I want it for and no I don't want it to replace my laptop. People who demand more power and built in keyboards are not the target market for tablets IMO. If the surface bridges the gap and fulfils those who want a 'tab-top' then it's a gap that will be filled. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So if Apple was able to offer a product which performed the same as a tablet and also gave the functionality of a Macbook then you wouldn't be interested at all?

The thing about the Surface is that the keyboard is detachable so it's able to function just fine as a tablet, albeit with a built in stand and as soon as you clip on the ultra-thin touch cover, you've got something with a decent keyboard and a touchpad.

I know it's a common thing, but I just don't get your argument. This isn't some sort of hammer/pillow hybrid whereby it's a crap pillow and hammer because the two things conflict with each other. It's not going to be the worlds greatest laptop because obviously a laptop works better on your lap than a tablet, but for a relatively small outlay (£99 for a touch cover) you get a good chunk of laptop functionality.

[Daniel]

If Apple were able to offer an iPad like you suggest, it would most likely cost more than £350 so no I wouldn't need it or be interested. For me it's just an in-between device that the wife and me share for the things I listed. I'm not a fan of everything Apple and would never spend more than 600 quid on a laptop for home use. That puts me out of Apples range. I like the concept of the present iPad and should it move towards Microsoft's direction or become stupidly expensive, I'll wait for mine to become obsolete and do without. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

but.... but .... but.... if Apple made a tablet like the surface then you could just.... you know...... not buy a touch cover and just use it as a tablet :confused:

[Daniel]

I could do, but I'd still only use it for the most basic of things. Would seem like a waste of money for me, and would hope there would be a lower spec'd model in the range. As much as you see mumblings that the iPad under performs and is going to be overtaken by rivals, I think there are others like me who enjoy it for what it is. Plus I like iOS experience so that's kind of a deal breaker :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The surface RT isn't a higher specced machine though, it just has a stand on the back and a port on the bottom where the keyboard clips in magnetically. I wasn't suggesting that you buy a Microsoft tablet, I was merely asking why you wouldn't buy an Apple one if it had this extra functionality for no extra cost and still being just as good a tablet as before?

[CaptainRaiden]

This is why I don't get the hardware arguments when discussing iPads.

I think the reason why the iPad has been criticized in the past is because it's too expensive and underpowered for the things it's supposed to do. Apple has since addressed those issues by offering much better hardware in the latest iPads.

Believe it or not, many people do look at tablets as a laptop alternative. Otherwise it's just a smartphone on steroids.

[Daniel]

I enjoy the touchscreen dependant experience maybe? Can't think of an easier way to explain it. As I said I got rid of a keyboard for my iPad. Couldn't be bothered to clip it on as an extra when a touchscreen keyboard pops up on screen anyway. Personal preference I suppose on that and not everyone thinks like me. I have nothing against the surface either btw, it looks a decent device. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But that's the beauty of Windows 8 ;) It provides Windows 7 functionality for people who like using a keyboard and a mouse, then for people who like yourself prefer a touchscreen experience there are the metro style apps. Truly the best of both worlds.

[donKey jote]

the SIII arrived today... it rules ! :D :dozey:

[BleAivano]

The surface RT isn't a higher specced machine though, it just has a stand on the back and a port on the bottom where the keyboard clips in magnetically. I wasn't suggesting that you buy a Microsoft tablet, I was merely asking why you wouldn't buy an Apple one if it had this extra functionality for no extra cost and still being just as good a tablet as before?


Simply because many apple fans considers features that does not exist on an apple product as unnecessary.
They simple "don't need it" that is of course until that particular feature becomes available on an apple product,
coz' that is when that feature suddenly will become "revolutionary", despite that i.e. android might have had it
since its first version.

[Valve Bounce]

Hi Everyone. This is my current toy: Toshiba Ultrabook with i5 core :Toshiba Ultrabook (http://www.mytoshiba.com.au/products/computers/ultrabook/z830?gclid=CNHLhOC7nbMCFUlMpgodOH0AAQ)

I just wonder how I would be better of with a tablet, rather than my ultrabook wich has a bloody good keyboard for me to exercise my fingers on. :)

[Mark]

Of course, as always, with these sorts of theread everywhere.

Apple user: I'm happy with my product :)
Anti-apple: You're an idiot! Fanboi! I hate you! DIE! :angryfire :

[Mark]

In other news Ibby's Dad bought an iPad 3 on Saturday, 4 days before the iPad 4 was announced. I did larf.

[Daniel]

Simply because many apple fans considers features that does not exist on an apple product as unnecessary.
They simple "don't need it" that is of course until that particular feature becomes available on an apple product,
coz' that is when that feature suddenly will become "revolutionary", despite that i.e. android might have had it
since its first version.
Whilst I see where Henners is coming from in terms of the tone, BleAivano has a point. If Apple made a surface clone then it would be considered revolutionary and be successful for sure.

[paldev123]

Tablets sounds like you are suffering form any disease. no interested

[Malbec]

Simply because many apple fans considers features that does not exist on an apple product as unnecessary.
They simple "don't need it" that is of course until that particular feature becomes available on an apple product,
coz' that is when that feature suddenly will become "revolutionary", despite that i.e. android might have had it
since its first version.

You really need to take stock and have a look at how your hatred for Apple blinkers you to the extent that noone can mention their products in a positive or even neutral light without being labelled as a fan. Remember that you have suggested the entire 150 year old patenting system is invalid purely because of some favourable judgements for Apple. Introducing a little objectivity would be useful for you.

Regarding the surface tablet I do think there's a niche for it particularly for those who do not already have a laptop. However for MS it fulfils a bigger marketing role which is to highlight the seamless nature of their OS which covers everything from phones through to PCs (yes I do know that the systems are not the same but to the consumer it feels that way).

I'm just disappointed with the relative lack of promotion from MS. I don't feel comfortable with the smartphone market being reduced to a duopoly and I want MS to take significant market share from Apple and Google to reintroduce healthy competition into this sector. This is going to take more than a brand new OS and a single glitzy debut show. I want to see saturation advertising especially in the buildup to Xmas, something MS can well afford and it isn't happening. Thats surprising given how key Windows 8 is to the future of MS as desk/laptop computer sales are declining taking away their cashcow.

[GridGirl]

In other news Ibby's Dad bought an iPad 3 on Saturday, 4 days before the iPad 4 was announced. I did larf.

It's his own fault, he asked everyone for money for Christmas two weeks ago so he could buy one. Then obviously, he decides Christmas it too far away and requires an iPad immediately somewhat out of the blue. Now no one has any idea what to get him for Christmas again and his iPad is out of date. He should just get over it and stop impulse buying. :p

[Daniel]

I'm just disappointed with the relative lack of promotion from MS. I don't feel comfortable with the smartphone market being reduced to a duopoly and I want MS to take significant market share from Apple and Google to reintroduce healthy competition into this sector. This is going to take more than a brand new OS and a single glitzy debut show. I want to see saturation advertising especially in the buildup to Xmas, something MS can well afford and it isn't happening. Thats surprising given how key Windows 8 is to the future of MS as desk/laptop computer sales are declining taking away their cashcow.
Couldn't agree more. That said, the Surface is sold out everywhere, but who knows what that means, they could have sold 10 or 10 million..... we just don't know. I wish Microsoft would do proper launches, if WP and W8 had launched on the same day and Microsoft had both the surface and surface RT on sale then you could see it going somewhere, but they just don't seem to try....

[Dave B]

In other news Ibby's Dad bought an iPad 3 on Saturday, 4 days before the iPad 4 was announced. I did larf.
Please tell me he ordered online so is covered by Distance Selling Regulations!

[Mark]

Nope; bought from Argos in person (I believe?). Now I believe that he'd bought from the Apple store in person, they would replace it free of charge, or as you say online you could just send it back.

[Daniel]

There's no great difference between the New iPad (its official title) and the refreshed version of the New iPad so I wouldn't be too bothered about it myself if I made the mistake of buying any iPad :p

[Dave B]

Nope; bought from Argos in person (I believe?). Now I believe that he'd bought from the Apple store in person, they would replace it free of charge, or as you say online you could just send it back.
Ouch. Ah well, it's not like the "3" is suddenly crap, it's just annoying that it's already superseded so soon after launch. That's the downside of Apple's secrecy, with most other manufacturers the new product line is flagged up well before launch.

[Dave B]

There's no great difference between the New iPad (its official title) and the refreshed version of the New iPad so I wouldn't be too bothered about it myself if I made the mistake of buying any iPad :p
What are they calling the old new iPad now? And what about the new new iPad? I wonder when the new new new new iPad will be out...

[Daniel]

What are they calling the old new iPad now? And what about the new new iPad? I wonder when the new new new new iPad will be out...

I haven't the foggiest!

[Valve Bounce]

Impulse buying does sometimes have a nasty habit of biting you within days :p

Not if I buy from Costco - I can return it anytime and get a refund here in Australia.

[Mark]

iPad
iPad 2
iPad 3rd Generation
iPad 4th Generation

[Robinho]

I believe you can't buy the old new iPad anymore, only the new New iPad, but I think you can still get the iPad 2 as a sub model. I had to go into the apple store to get the wife's 4s sorted. I felt dirty, a few years ago it would have been cool, now it seems mainstream. To their credit they checked the phone, agreed that iOS6 had messed the phone up and replaced it no questions. A massive recognition that they have a big problem with iOS6 if they are replacing phones with no qualms, but at least they have sorted it

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Mark]

Have to say I don't like Apple shops either. They try too hard.

[CaptainRaiden]

That's something about Apple I like in the respect they will replace devices with very few questions. HTC would say that they had to repair the device 3 times before a replacement would be considered. I had to really kick up a fuss and it took me 2 weeks of emails to get my HTC Tattoo replaced back in 2009.

You were quite lucky there. I had a Nokia 6670 in 2004 sent to their repair centers all around the country and back about 5 times over two months, with ultimately no replacement, which I finally sold to an unsuspecting poor soul in the second hand market, and bought a Motorola. Never bought a Nokia again since then.

[Daniel]

That's something about Apple I like in the respect they will replace devices with very few questions. HTC would say that they had to repair the device 3 times before a replacement would be considered. I had to really kick up a fuss and it took me 2 weeks of emails to get my HTC Tattoo replaced back in 2009.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The only reason Apple can do that though, is because they've charged you enough to cover the cost of replacing units rather than repairing them. You pays your money and makes your choice :) I've not had any problems with my phones since 2007 when I needed to replace the screen and flexi cable on my N95 which I did myself. Since then I've had a Nokia E71, Samsung Omnia 7, Lumia 800 and now a HTC HD7 and none have ever had any hardware issues :)

[pino]

You're a lucky man Daniel ;)

[Daniel]

You're a lucky man Daniel ;)

Nah, I just make careful choices :) The only lemon of a phone I've ever owned was a Nokia 3230. That was truly a terrible phone.

[Mark]

Yes Apple cover the cost of service in the price but you know when you purchase this is the case. As others have said they've been put off Nokia and HTC due to poor customer service. Whereas Apple know that if they treat you well you'll keep buying Apple products.

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah I appreciate that. You get what you pay for with any product or service. You will pay more in a restaurant if the service is good generally, unless of course you take your family to McDonalds every week lol. But if you purchase something for more and know should something go wrong you'll get good service, it's worth it for some people. My last HTC was bomb proof btw and has been the most reliable handset I've owned. Previous customer service experience with them was shocking however. Plus I only paid 80 quid more towards my iPhone than I did for my HTC so it's a juggle to find that happy balance :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well,unfortunately, Costco doesn't market phones. But when my Strong DTV recorder bought from Costco started to play up badly after two years, they told me to return it and gave me a refund. I think this is a good policy, because they sell heaps of merchandise with such goodwill.

[Mark]

Yeah I had a few Nokia's break. Which meant 2 weeks without a phone while they sent it off. Including once where I sent it to O2 who then lost it and denied all knowledge. That was costly for me and why I've never used O2 since.

[Malbec]

The only reason Apple can do that though, is because they've charged you enough to cover the cost of replacing units rather than repairing them.

I doubt very much that they've charged enough on the initial product that they can afford to replace rather than repair.

When I go to Apple shops its clear they acted on the initial market research they did just after they launched the iPod. That showed that people liked the iPod and were willing to buy it but weren't keen on the rest of the Apple range and weren't interested in buying iMacs etc because they weren't familiar with the OS. Apple stores are almost singlemindedly designed to address this single issue. There are always loads of Apple computers on display free to play with and there's internet access. Noone hassles you to move on from the machines if you decide to surf for a while on them. It gives customers time to familiarise themselves with the OS without thinking about it, the incentive is free internet access.

The good service is part of the expansionist grand plan. If your competitors, most of whom don't have direct outlets themselves on the high street, build up a reputation for being difficult when machines go wrong then if you simply replace or repair quickly under warranty then your reputation improves rapidly via word of mouth.

As for Apple assistants trying too hard I thought so too until I met one who happened to be American. Then it all clicked into place, they've just introduced American ideas of service into a European shop. Thats why they feel strange. I don't think thats a bad thing personally, I prefer American customer service to British any day.

[Mark]

I seem to recall in the dim and distant past Apple were not good at customer service when the first iPods came out if people had problems e.g. with the battery they would use excuses such as a scratch on the case to get out of repairing it.

It seems they did learn from that experience.

[Daniel]

I doubt very much that they've charged enough on the initial product that they can afford to replace rather than repair.

They just repair the faulty unit and resell it as a refurb online for what is still a fairly expensive price. This is how they cover the cost of giving people new phones :)

[Jag_Warrior]

By the data that I've read from places like Consumer Reports and All Things Digital, one thing that is consistent across all Apple product lines is their tendency to garner very high customer satisfaction and customer retention levels. Initial quality, versus industry standards, tends to be in the higher percentiles - so that means they typically don't malfunction early on as often as certain other brands. But when they are faulty, Apple seems to have a greater tendency to address the problem to the satisfaction and expectation of the consumer. You have to first give people a well made product, whether it's a computer or a car. But when there is a problem, if you address it to their reasonable expectations, you'll probably retain that customer for quite some time to come. And if word spreads, you'll probably pick up more new customers just based on word of mouth, if not independent data studies.

[Mark]

More usually the repaired units are the very ones which are given to users as replacements. This isn't specific to Apple, it's standard industry practice.

[Dave B]

The only reason Apple can do that though, is because they've charged you enough to cover the cost of replacing units rather than repairing them.
Normally when you send a phone off for repair, you end up with a full refurb (ie new case, new battery, new screen overlay, new keyboard where applicable). It costs peanuts as the circuit board, processor and memory are the expensive parts; and consumers can't tell the difference. Indeed I've seen refurbs which were built to a better standard than handsets off the factory production line! Most manufacturers and their agents make you wait a few weeks for this process. Apple cut out the delay and gain a great reputation, which makes sense, but it's still a refurb in the majority of cases.

[BleAivano]

By the data that I've read from places like Consumer Reports and All Things Digital, one thing that is consistent across all Apple product lines is their tendency to garner very high customer satisfaction and customer retention levels. Initial quality, versus industry standards, tends to be in the higher percentiles - so that means they typically don't malfunction early on as often as certain other brands. But when they are faulty, Apple seems to have a greater tendency to address the problem to the satisfaction and expectation of the consumer. You have to first give people a well made product, whether it's a computer or a car. But when there is a problem, if you address it to their reasonable expectations, you'll probably retain that customer for quite some time to come. And if word spreads, you'll probably pick up more new customers just based on word of mouth, if not independent data studies.

But it could also bee that someone who bought a very expensive phone are less reluctant to admit that they don't like their purchase.

[Malbec]

By the data that I've read from places like Consumer Reports and All Things Digital, one thing that is consistent across all Apple product lines is their tendency to garner very high customer satisfaction and customer retention levels. Initial quality, versus industry standards, tends to be in the higher percentiles - so that means they typically don't malfunction early on as often as certain other brands. But when they are faulty, Apple seems to have a greater tendency to address the problem to the satisfaction and expectation of the consumer. You have to first give people a well made product, whether it's a computer or a car. But when there is a problem, if you address it to their reasonable expectations, you'll probably retain that customer for quite some time to come. And if word spreads, you'll probably pick up more new customers just based on word of mouth, if not independent data studies.

Completely agree. Its a tried and tested formula for succeeding in breaking into a new market. Its reflects exactly how Japanese and later Korean car makers broke into Western markets. Offer a decent product and clobber the opposition on aftermarket service.

[Daniel]

Normally when you send a phone off for repair, you end up with a full refurb (ie new case, new battery, new screen overlay, new keyboard where applicable). It costs peanuts as the circuit board, processor and memory are the expensive parts; and consumers can't tell the difference. Indeed I've seen refurbs which were built to a better standard than handsets off the factory production line! Most manufacturers and their agents make you wait a few weeks for this process. Apple cut out the delay and gain a great reputation, which makes sense, but it's still a refurb in the majority of cases.

It's been a while since I've sent a phone off for repair to be fair.

[Jag_Warrior]

But it could also bee that someone who bought a very expensive phone are less reluctant to admit that they don't like their purchase.

Yes, it could be. But that explanation doesn't seem very plausible. If true, then why didn't 1980-90's Jaguars have industry leading customer satisfaction and initial quality scores??? At $60K-$70K per pop, it seems that a purchase of that magnitude would generate higher (false) scores than a $700 phone. In fact, Jaguars of that era had very low customer satisfaction and initial quality scores. Jaguar also struggled with customer retention... which led to rather horrendous depreciation after a couple of years. So, how would that explanation account for Apple's industry leading customer retention ratings? If someone didn't like their initial purchase within the first 30 days (when the device could be returned, I believe), why would they keep it... and especially, why would they then buy another one a couple of years or months later???

The data points to Apple having higher than industry average customer satisfaction and customer retention scores and higher second hand market values on most of its products. Explanations for why that is are probably wide ranging. But I doubt that it has anything to do with people feeling any sense of shame or wanting to hide their true feelings. I know of no objective data which has found such a thing to be true.

[CaptainRaiden]

Windows 8 system at a consumer booth gets the dreaded blue screen. :p

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/5701017_700b.jpg

I'm a Windows fan and all, but we gotta learn to laugh at ourselves. :D

[CaptainRaiden]

The Mapple Void

7gf-ICdzU18

[Mark]

The blue screen has nicer fonts now.

[Malbec]

Windows 8 system at a consumer booth gets the dreaded blue screen. :p

Don't be too worried, Daniel is offering a full money back guarantee if you're not 100% satisfied ;)

[Daniel]

Don't be too worried, Daniel is offering a full money back guarantee if you're not 100% satisfied ;)

Hardly surprising though. Most BSOD's are down to dodgy hardware anyway. As Windows 8 is only new this unit has probably only been running for a few hours and the first few days and weeks are when most hardware fails anyway ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

AnandTech - LG and Google Announce the Nexus 4, Starts at $299 (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6416/lg-and-google-announce-the-nexus-4-starts-at-299)

Google Nexus 4 by LG (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/google-nexus-4-by-lg-a-super-cheap-super-phone-1108283)

Whoa! Now that's a proper steal for those ridonkulous specs. Still can't believe the price!


LG and Google Announce the Nexus 4, Starts at $299

This isn't how they wanted to do it, but LG and Google are going ahead with the announcement of the Nexus 4, and it's a steal. The lineage of the device is clear, with specs aping those of the LG Optimus G, but blessed with the latest update to Jelly Bean: Android 4.2. The Qualcomm Snapdragon S4 Pro features four Krait cores clocked at 1.5GHz , the Adreno 320 GPU, and paired the requisite 2GB of RAM. The same 4.7" TrueHD IPS Plus display has a 1280x768 resolution, and the design is updated with a new back surface. Available in 8GB and 16GB configurations, the new Nexus will start at just $299, and top out at $349 unlocked and off-contract, through the Google Play Store on November 13th.

When Google's Galaxy Nexus was sold unlocked for $349 it was a stupendous bargain, despite somewhat dated hardware. With today's announcement, though, we have top of the line hardware being sold at prices that bend the price curve drastically against buying on-contract devices. We'll see how that all plays out over the coming months.

Update: And there it is! In addition to the Nexus 4, we'll also be seeing the Nexus stable expand with two new SKUs for the Nexus 7 and a brand new stablemate, the Nexus 10 from Samsung.

The first update to the Nexus 7 comes in a 32GB variant that takes the place of the original 16GB SKU at $249. The 16GB model now slots in at the $199 and both are joined by a new "mobile data" variant of the 32GB SKU that will be available unlocked for $299. The unlocked nature of the device indicates it may be 3G only, we'll dig in more in a second.

The Nexus 10 was first rumored just a few weeks ago, and peaks our interest in a big way. Built in partnership with Samsung, the 10" tablet is powered by Samsung's Exynos 5 Dual (nee 5250) SoC, making it the first Android device powered by ARM Cortex-A15 cores. In this case, two Cortex-A15 cores, clocked as high as 1.7GHz, are mated to the Mali-T604 GPU and 2GB of RAM. On the front of the device you find a 2560x1600 10" display, making it the highest resolution Android tablet to date. The display is made possible by the Exynos memory subsystem that puts two-port DDR3-800 on the table for 12.8GB/s of bandwidth. The Nexus 10 will be priced at $399 (16GB) and $499 (32GB) and be available along with the rest of the line-up on November 13th on the Google Play Store. Interested shoppers can sign up for more information today through the store.


http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6416/Nexus_v16_web_flat.png

http://cdn0.mos.techradar.futurecdn.net///art/mobile_phones/Google/Google_Nexus_4-900-75.jpg

The only thing that bothers me though is the lack of expandable memory. That still makes me think I made the right choice with the Galaxy S3. But hey, $350 for the 16 GB model?? I wouldn't really miss the microSD slot! ;)

[Daniel]

and Microsoft launches WP8 today :)

A few interesting features such as a guest account which I think is quite nifty really. On a slightly related topic, I went to dinner last night and one of the girls left her iphone 5 at the table so we were messaging her boyfriend :D That said, if she had a brain she'd have a code to unlock her phone :p

[CaptainRaiden]

and Microsoft launches WP8 today :)

A few interesting features such as a guest account which I think is quite nifty really. On a slightly related topic, I went to dinner last night and one of the girls left her iphone 5 at the table so we were messaging her boyfriend :D That said, if she had a brain she'd have a code to unlock her phone :p

I was keeping an eye on the WP8 launch here - AnandTech - Microsoft's Windows Phone 8 Event - Liveblog (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6417/microsofts-windows-phone-8-event-liveblog)

Some impressive hardware specs on some of the WP8 devices, even though it's the lightest on resources out of all three OS'. Good to see they're looking ahead.

[CaptainRaiden]

And the Google Nexus 10 tablet made by Samsung. Again, impressive specs:

Google Nexus 10 unveiled with highest-res tablet display | News | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/tablets/google-nexus-10-unveiled-with-highest-res-tablet-display-1108289)

Will have world's highest resolution display, more than the new new iPad, better hardware, NFC, and better value for money.

[Daniel]

I was keeping an eye on the WP8 launch here - AnandTech - Microsoft's Windows Phone 8 Event - Liveblog (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6417/microsofts-windows-phone-8-event-liveblog)

Some impressive hardware specs on some of the WP8 devices, even though it's the lightest on resources out of all three OS'. Good to see they're looking ahead.

Didn't get the chance to follow the liveblog sadly.

This is the photo I've wanted to see for ages :)
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6417/WP8-700_575px.jpg

This is where it all starts to make sense. I think this is when WP8 starts to take off, IF Windows 8 does well :)

[Daniel]

Well my year old laptop has windows 7 and so does my desktop at work so I'm a good 2 years off using Windows 8.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, you're an iClone anyway ;) :p Joking of course. It's not the only reason to use WP8, but a lot of people will be introduced to the interface and realised that it's not as evil as they first thought :)

[Daniel]

:p Nah you won't find me using a Mac anytime soon I can assure you lol. From what I have seen its good and seeing as you can customize it, I will adapt like every other windows OS I have used in the last 20 years.

You can download Windows 8 for £24.99 from the Microsoft store ;)

[gloomyDAY]

I'm sitting on my hands and waiting for all of the companies to dish out their toys. I'll be in the market for a tablet, but I'm sure that Apple are out of the running. iPad is too big and I'd rather use my laptop. The iPad mini is laughable with its crappy screen resolution and slower processor. I think I'm either getting the Kindle Fire or Nexus 7. Small, great price, fully customizable, and NO lag.

[Dave B]

The revised Nexus 7 looks amazing if you're after a tablet, with the only disappointment being the lack of a SD card slot. I suspect that 32GB storage is probably enough for most people though, and adding 3G for £239 is pretty amazing.

The iPad mini doesn't seem to know what it wants to be. It's still to wide for a pocket thanks to Apple's reluctance to lose their 90's 4:3 screen ratio, it's a shame they didn't make it a scaled-down iPhone5 rather than base it on the outdated iPad2 then it could have been brilliant. After mocking rivals for not having retina displays they've made a product with a lower PPI count than almost every competitor, yet priced it higher than them all. Very strange.

On a tangent, my S3 got Jellybean yesterday. Looooovely and smooth, it's like having a new machine :)

[CaptainRaiden]

On a tangent, my S3 got Jellybean yesterday. Looooovely and smooth, it's like having a new machine :)

Totally agreed. Got mine two weeks ago, and like I said in my review of it a few pages ago, while it was still great with ICS, but after the JB update, it seems like the Galaxy S3 has come alive. :)

[Mark]

Yep, it's often commented Apple are really good at marketing and this is the reason for their success. Well; Microsoft has the resources available and could do the same if it chose to; and make the surface the default consumer choice - instead they'll fall back on the 'best for business' thing and fade away - again

[Daniel]

Watching TV with my wife last night and the Windows Surface advert came on. Now she doesn't usually have an opinion on phones and tablets as she has no real interest in it but from a marketing perspective she said the advert was lacking. Daniel mentioned the way Microsoft market their products a few posts back and I agreed that Microsoft are rather weak in this department in comparison to rivals. The Surface advert was 30 seconds of people clipping a keyboard onto the edge of the device in a range of colours. We know it has more to offer than that and it would be nice to see punchy examples of its features like Amazon with its Kindle or Apple with the iPad. A minor criticism of the marketing, not the tablet itself. :)

Exactly. Why would you buy a Surface if that was the only exposure you had to it? yeah OK it has a keyboard that clips on..... what else does it do?

[Mark]

Yes it will be good for business, but the only way to 'break through' is to appeal to the mass market consumer - the likes of me who instead of buying an iPad will get a surface.

[Daniel]

Yes it will be good for business, but the only way to 'break through' is to appeal to the mass market consumer - the likes of me who instead of buying an iPad will get a surface.

The problem is that the RT is only an iPad competitor and not strictly a business machine. Now if they'd released the Pro now, then we'd have a serious device on our hands. I don't want a tablet that much to go out and buy such a hobbled device (whether it be Android, iOS or W8 RT) and I suspect a lot of people would happily pay that little bit more for a full fat, full featured laptop that gives you tablet functionality as well.

[Malbec]

Yes it will be good for business, but the only way to 'break through' is to appeal to the mass market consumer - the likes of me who instead of buying an iPad will get a surface.

Chances are, and posts on this thread already support this, that most people will first use Windows 8 through work so I do see some sense in MS' marketing angle.

If they want to break into the mass market what they need to do is crack the smartphone market. Once people feel comfortable with W8 on their phones then they'll progress to buying a W8 tablet. Thats how Apple and Android have done it. Shame MS are neglecting to market their smartphones enough but perhaps by releasing an OS that works on everything from a phone straight through to a desktop they've bitten off more than they can chew marketing wise. They can't advertise everything simultaneously effectively.

[Daniel]

Chances are, and posts on this thread already support this, that most people will first use Windows 8 through work so I do see some sense in MS' marketing angle.

If they want to break into the mass market what they need to do is crack the smartphone market. Once people feel comfortable with W8 on their phones then they'll progress to buying a W8 tablet. Thats how Apple and Android have done it. Shame MS are neglecting to market their smartphones enough but perhaps by releasing an OS that works on everything from a phone straight through to a desktop they've bitten off more than they can chew marketing wise. They can't advertise everything simultaneously effectively.
WP8 is not Windows 8 like I've said ;)

[Malbec]

WP8 is not Windows 8 like I've said ;)

Not technically, but from a marketing point of view it is as the look across all the OS is the same.

[Mark]

Exactly, the idea is "it all looks the same", so there will be many unhappy when they find stuff doesn't work.

I remember people trying to get Windows .exe files working on Windows Mobile/CE back in the day and complaining it was broken.

[J4MIE]

My work upgraded from XP to Windows 7 about 2 months ago, so I can't see 8 coming along anytime soon..... The only reason I would get it would be if I got a new PC, but that's been put off for a while.

[Daniel]

Exactly, the idea is "it all looks the same", so there will be many unhappy when they find stuff doesn't work.

I remember people trying to get Windows .exe files working on Windows Mobile/CE back in the day and complaining it was broken.

There will be a degree of compatibility between WP8 and W8 RT apps, but in terms of legacy Windows Apps, no compatibility whatsoever!

[Daniel]

That's rather disappointing then.



I obviously forgot when Apple made the iPhone and iPad compatible with Os X :) ARM processors (what's in most smartphones and tablets) are incapable for running software written for desktop computers.

[Malbec]

Its like that at our place. Even a £25 upgrade would have to be justified in the IT budget and would likely be declined. I had to convince our Director that the design department need better spec'd computers than the women in customer services who all have 2 grand Macs whereas we were told our budget was £1000 per person. Up until that point he just didn't get it. Windows 8 will be on my machine in 2 years time if I am lucky.

We're still on XP, I suspect we'll be upgrading directly to Windows 15 when it comes out...

Meanwhile I've liked what I've seen with WP8 so far but unfortunately MS have lost me as a customer already. The Nokia 920 which looks like the best WP phone (with the HTC 8X getting lukewarm reviews) is exclusive to EE on a 4G connection which means it'll cost a fortune.

[Daniel]

Yeah I won't be using 4G when it becomes available on my network if the prices are anything like they are now. I really can't see the justification when 3G is pretty fast and I'm mostly around Wifi networks anyway. Its just one of those services that will get small numbers signing up and when the rest of the providers get it they will just include it in the cost no doubt.
Same here. Ridiculous pricing.......

[Daniel]

Meanwhile I've liked what I've seen with WP8 so far but unfortunately MS have lost me as a customer already. The Nokia 920 which looks like the best WP phone (with the HTC 8X getting lukewarm reviews) is exclusive to EE on a 4G connection which means it'll cost a fortune.
Why not just buy the phone outright? Ends up being cheaper over the life of your contract anyway :)

[Mark]

Same here. Ridiculous pricing.......

Yes, which is what massive held back data on mobile devices for many years. Charges such as £1 per MB, nobody dared use any mobile data, nevermind watching videas etc. It's one thing you can thank Apple for opening up, as they demanded operators taking iPhone offered unlimited data plans. Shame they've gone now.

[Daniel]

If I was looking to buy a Windows phone I think I would wait another 6 months and see what else comes out. So many models are being released at the moment and in quick succession, it seems they just get better by the week. I wouldn't want to be stuck in a 24 month contract knowing there are better handsets available and ones that were released just a couple of weeks after mine. Then again that will always happen. WP8 is still very young and I think I'd want to see if more apps are being released on that service too.Its sometimes better to purchase the phone outright I agree, but in my case I would have saved 40 quid over the 2 years which I didn't think was worth it. It may well be a bigger difference with the Nokia and have no idea how much the 920 costs.

The upgrade cycle isn't that short with Windows Phones though. As an example here's HTC's big screen WP7 release dates.

October 2010 HD7
October 2011 Titan
April 2012 Titan (Titan with 4g and more MP camera)

So IMHO it makes sense to buy now if you need a phone now, rather than waiting 6 months and then finding that a new phone is only 6 months away.

WP8 has all the apps from WP7 so it's not appless like WP7 was to start with :) I think a 920 will be around £450 sim only. You could gamble on the launch being a bit slow and the prices getting dropped a bit in a couple of months though......

[Daniel]

Yeah my iPhone contract has 'unlimited data' but in the small print there is a fair use policy where they slash you data speed should you go over a gig. I don't know why they don't just say you have 1GB of data. Sounds better I suppose.

Can't remember what my plan is, but I'm with Three and their coverage is dire so I've never troubled my cap...... Then again I tend to use my phone on WiFi 90% of the time so it's no big problem.

[GridGirl]

Yeah I won't be using 4G when it becomes available on my network if the prices are anything like they are now. I really can't see the justification when 3G is pretty fast and I'm mostly around Wifi networks anyway. Its just one of those services that will get small numbers signing up and when the rest of the providers get it they will just include it in the cost no doubt.

I would consider 4G if it could be hooked up to a wifi sender and give me a decent speed. 3G currently happens to be about four times faster than my home broadband so the thought of getting 4G is very appealing even if it is very expensive. 4G could potentially give me a faster speed much quicker than the various campaigns in my local area to get quicker broadband which to date include features on tv shows, local papers, complaining to the council, our MP speaking in parliament as well as the hounding of the powers that be at BT.

[Mark]

The data caps mean that it's still going to be a poor alternative to your home wifi.

[GridGirl]

My home wi-fi speeds range between 0.8mg and 1.9mg though and we've done all the tricks such as moving routers etc to make it faster. Could be worse though as some of our neighbours get 0.3mg. Hopefully with a little competition prices for 4G will come down in the future and then I will think about looking into data plans. :)

[Mark]

My home wi-fi speeds range between 0.8mg and 1.9mg though and we've done all the tricks such as moving routers etc to make it faster. Could be worse though as some of our neighbours get 0.3mg. Hopefully with a little competition prices for 4G will come down in the future and then I will think about looking into data plans. :)

You should be able to get fibre to the cabinet before too much longer.

[Daniel]

Its reassuring to know that. I was fed up of Android phones being released weekly and my phone slipping quickly out of date. That's one of the reasons I chose Apple as you know where you are concerning the range of products. I have read a little into apps for WP8 and is it right you can't use BBC iPlayer on it yet? That would be a bummer for me especially during the summer when I'm in West Wales and wanting to watch the GP highlights. Reading a few reviews and it appears there will be quite a battle in the coming year to see if many developers will stretch their resources to include WP8 as its apparently a very different platform to design for. You will know more about that than me of course. I know iOS is always attractive to developers because of the revenue they make in comparison to rivals. As I said a few pages back, it seems iPhone/iPad users are more willing in any numbers to buy apps whereas Android users statistically tend to expect more free apps. I think this will change as nothing remains free forever. :)

At the moment the videos on the BBC site don't work because of standards, but there's nothing to stop the BBC developing software for WP8 and I suspect with the similarities between WP8 and W8 RT, there should hopefully be an iPlayer app in the future. As always, if a particular app is a deal breaker then it's a deal breaker :) We use iPlayer a lot, I use TunerfreeMCE within Windows Media Centre and it's fantastic for watching BBC stuff as well as the of ITV or Channel 4/5 program. We don't tend to holiday much in the UK so an iPlayer app isn't all that important, though I'll admit that it is annoying in the morning when I go on the BBC site and see and interesting story and I can't play the clip......

BBC still not making a Windows Phone iPlayer app, blames Windows Phone 8, bugs | WMPoweruser (http://wmpoweruser.com/bbc-still-not-making-a-windows-phone-iplayer-app-blames-windows-phone-8-bugs/)

Reading this story, will an iPlayer app land on WP8? Who can say. It won't bother me either way. I'll get myself a Surface Pro, iPlayer runs just fine on the proper desktop version of Windows 8.

Reading my post I can see the problem...... People will buy a Surface RT or WP8 device and expect an iPlayer app or at least for the iPlayer site to work on it and when it doesn't.......

In terms of just streaming from the web, I can see why BBC don't support WP7, it would mean converting all the videos on their site into another format! And for what? A few percent of the market, but I think that if they get off their high horse they'll make an app for WP8.

[Malbec]

Why not just buy the phone outright? Ends up being cheaper over the life of your contract anyway :)

With my network provider it doesn't really make that much difference.

[Daniel]

With my network provider it doesn't really make that much difference.

So buy one outright ;)

[Daniel]

The BBC would be mad not to accommodate WP8 regardless of market share IMO. Viewers are viewers at the end of the day. Plus if they covered their development costs by charging WP8 users a couple of quid as opposed to it being free elsewhere, I don't think many people would mind if it was something they wanted. There are ways around such issues I am sure.

One would imagine that there are possibly some politics involved. They had two years to accommodate WP7 and didn't. Again, it doesn't bother me, but I suspect I'm not the typical user, I don't care about apps really. I use the accuweather app, the ebay app, the endomondo app, last.fm, and Vevo. I used to use the facebook app, but it's quicker just to use it on the web. Uploading photos to facebook is done with the built in facebook functionality so the only time I use it is to check in as it's better for that than the website.

[Mark]

Probably because they knew WP7 was a stop gap before WP8 came out - which should be here longer term.

I mean they developed an app for S60, so I don't see Windows Phone being an issue. But as with anything it will take time - It's still 'coming soon' on Sky+HD after all.

[Daniel]

Probably because they knew WP7 was a stop gap before WP8 came out - which should be here longer term.

I mean they developed an app for S60, so I don't see Windows Phone being an issue. But as with anything it will take time - It's still 'coming soon' on Sky+HD after all.
No one knew that WP7 was going to be a stopgap and IMHO I don't think it is/was? It was a fully functional OS and whilst it only really got going properly with Mango, I've never regretted my purchases.

[Mark]

Well it's long been known that Windows 8 was coming out, for most of the life of WP7 in fact.

[Daniel]

Well it's long been known that Windows 8 was coming out, for most of the life of WP7 in fact.

Can we stop interchanging the terms Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8? :)

[Mark]

No. It's Microsofts fault they came up with ambiguous terms, is it any surprise they will be used interchangeably.

[Daniel]

No. It's Microsofts fault they came up with ambiguous terms, is it any surprise they will be used interchangeably.

They're not interchangeable though! They're not ambiguous either! Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8. You'll notice the latter has phone in it and the former doesn't.

[Mark]

Yeh, so, most will see "Windows" , "8". Naming has never been Microsoft's strong point.

[Daniel]

Yeh, so, most will see "Windows" , "8". Naming has never been Microsoft's strong point.
If people don't see the PHONE bit in the middle then they're a touch blind.....

[Daniel]

I must say I'm with Mark on the branding. Two identical words mean the middle word is easily lost when referring to such things. I know a couple of people who have already referred to the new phones as having Windows 8 so its easily done.

Just because a few people make a mistake doesn't mean the branding is wrong :)

[Malbec]

If people don't see the PHONE bit in the middle then they're a touch blind.....

You're taking the geeky view.

Both systems have a very similar if not identical look with colourful tablets. Both are called Windows. Both are numbered 8. Both were released within days of each other. Microsoft is marketing the whole package as a revolution together.

They are meant to be viewed as a seamless single product by MS even if they are not.

If MS wanted the consumer to view them as separate products there would be clear product differentiation. There isn't.

[Daniel]

You're taking the geeky view.

Both systems have a very similar if not identical look with colourful tablets. Both are called Windows. Both are numbered 8. Both were released within days of each other. Microsoft is marketing the whole package as a revolution together.

They are meant to be viewed as a seamless single product by MS even if they are not.

If MS wanted the consumer to view them as separate products there would be clear product differentiation. There isn't.

So Windows 7 and Windows Phone 7 were the same then I guess?


Yes, they do use the same design language in terms of their touch interface but it still doesn't change the fact that one is a phone OS and another is a desktop/tablet OS. Sure, Microsoft are promoting them as being related (because they are related) but they are not one and the same, nor does Microsoft pretend that they are.

[Mark]

Windows 7 and Windows Phone 7 looked completely different.

[CaptainRaiden]

Amazon doing a little mud slinging at Apple:

http://cultofmac.cultofmaccom.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/amazonipadminiad.jpg

I actually don't mind these kind of ads which bring the real picture, regarding specs and features, out in the open. Helps a consumer make an informed decision, because they can always dig a little deeper and see comparisons on an unbiased website before making the purchase.

The thing is that the iPad mini will still sell more, even though there are much, much better 7+ inch tablets out in the market.

[Mark]

Again we come back to hardware however. You can have a supercomputer capable of calculating the meaning of life in 1.2 seconds, however if all you get is a command prompt then you'd be better of with an iPad ;)

[cali]

Consumers will buy what they want and will vote with their wallets at the end of the day.
No, most consumers will buy what is marketed for them. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the quality of the product. Not sayin that Apple products are ****e but they are very well promoted.

[Mark]

Sure, they are, but as I said above, there's nothing to stop the likes of Microsoft and Samsung promoting their products similarly, they aren't exactly small companies either.

[CaptainRaiden]

I am not a fan of the Kindle Fire as Amazon modified the Android OS heavily with their own UI, and whenever a manufacturer does that, the results are not so favorable, for example Motoblur.

Google's Nexus with Android JB is a much better alternative with a higher resolution, better hardware and comparable features, and is almost $130 cheaper. What's incredible is that Apple can charge up to $150 more for lesser resolution and lesser features in the iPad mini, and its fans have no problem gobbling it up without even thinking twice.

You're not gonna get any serious work done with a 7 inch tablet. What you use it for is basic stuff like reading books or magazines, playing a few tap-tap games (where better hardware always helps). And any of the 7 inch tablets can do that work very well, and comparatively close to one another.

As a consumer who looks at a product's bang for the buck, what is Apple offering extra in the iPad mini for $130? It's not just a gripe of mine, but many other unbiased tech review websites all over the internet.

[Mark]

iOS.

[CaptainRaiden]

iOS.

Worth $150 extra? Okay, got it.

[CaptainRaiden]

Android Jellybean vs iOS 6 - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/google-android-jellybean-versus-apple-ios-6-2012-9?op=1)

[BleAivano]

I am not a fan of the Kindle Fire as Amazon modified the Android OS heavily with their own UI, and whenever a manufacturer does that, the results are not so favorable, for example Motoblur.

Google's Nexus with Android JB is a much better alternative with a higher resolution, better hardware and comparable features, and is almost $130 cheaper. What's incredible is that Apple can charge up to $150 more for lesser resolution and lesser features in the iPad mini, and its fans have no problem gobbling it up without even thinking twice.

You're not gonna get any serious work done with a 7 inch tablet. What you use it for is basic stuff like reading books or magazines, playing a few tap-tap games (where better hardware always helps). And any of the 7 inch tablets can do that work very well, and comparatively close to one another.

As a consumer who looks at a product's bang for the buck, what is Apple offering extra in the iPad mini for $130? It's not just a gripe of mine, but many other unbiased tech review websites all over the internet.

Actually from what i have read on various aviation forums, tablets are actually used by pilots in their everyday work.
They use it to store/view the type documentation that is not required to be in physical paper format.

FAA lets American Airlines pilots replace 35 pounds of paper with iPad tablets | Airline Biz Blog (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/09/faa-lets-american-airlines-pilots-replace-35-pounds-of-paper-with-ipad-tablets.html/)
Airlines and Tablets? [Archive] - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-63255.html)
American Airlines Expands Inflight iPad Program for Pilots | News & Opinion | PCMag.com (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409531,00.asp)
Tablets in cockpit: Pilots use gadget to get a hang of route, weather and destination - Economic Times (http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-04-11/news/31325042_1_air-india-pilot-tablets-dgca)
Airlines and Tablets? - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/63255-airlines-tablets.html)

[CaptainRaiden]

You've admitted yourself on here that you are biased against Apple products so poor use of wording there.

I didn't call myself unbiased, henners. ;) Perhaps reading twice may improve comprehension. :)


Yes iOS is worth $130 more IMO or the inflated figure below of $150.

I'm sorry that $20 is bothering you. It is between $130 to $150 more expensive in different markets. Apple's price fluctuates in different markets, henners. I thought you knew that.


You pay for hardware and some pay for software. I think iOS is alot nicer to use than Android so all the spec in the arsenal isn't going to make much difference to my choice right now. Should Android improve in future then maybe I will consider returning. Until then its a hardware race missing the key element.

Did you read the link I posted above? No? Let me put it here again and quote the conclusion from Business Insider to make this easier:

Android Jellybean vs iOS 6 - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/google-android-jellybean-versus-apple-ios-6-2012-9?op=1)


So what's the score?

Final Score:

Google: 7

Apple: 4

So there you have it folks. I bet you didn't expect the outcome to end up like it did.

Overall Google's Android OS is much more robust and feature packed than Apple's.

Jelly Bean's updates are focused around speed. Google wanted to drastically improve the performance throughout the system and for the most part they achieved that.

Apple has polished its operating system and added a lot of nifty features but it is still struggling to keep up with Android.

So, there you have it, an unbiased source, Business Insider. And it's not just them, but universally Jelly Bean is rated higher than iOS, you can check. Techradar.com would be another good source. As I have just proved, Apple doesn't even have the undisputed better software anymore. In the past, maybe, yes, but not anymore.

One thing Apple have going for them is better look, feel, all that aesthetic manure. But is that worth the extra $150? Not in my opinion.

So, inferior hardware, much lesser resolution (not resolutionary anymore? :laugh: ), crap-de-la-crap Apple Maps, and now an aging and under-performing software. All worth $150 more? Yep, makes perfect sense.

However, if Apple fans believe Apple is justified in asking such price, and they'll pay willingly, then I guess good for them!

[CaptainRaiden]

My iPhone isn't under-performing and doesn't feel dated in the slightest. I'm happy to pay the extra for something I enjoy using and Apple's figures suggest I am not alone.

Well, then good for you, like I said in the last line of my previous post. Be happy with your purchase and your favorite brand and ignore the criticisms.


As I keep saying, if there are better alternatives on the market then people will buy them surely? Android is out selling Apple so what's the big deal? You are happy with your devices so why the constant quest to rubbish Apple every chance you get? We don't have people here constantly posting pro Apple material in an attempt to sway peoples opinions so I really don't get it, sorry. The only issue here is you not being able to accept that others will willingly pay a little bit more for an Apple device. They don't buy under your criteria and you are miffed about that. Just let it go dude ;)

As I keep proving, Apple has nothing that is the undisputed best compared to its competitors anymore, so people are getting swayed by flashy marketing surely? Android is out selling Apple, which is only normal. You are happy with your devices, so why the constant quest to defend Apple every chance you get? We don't have many people here constantly being able to see past Apple's crap, so I really don't get it, sorry. The only issue here is you not being able to accept that others don't agree with Apple's exorbitant prices, and are perfectly under their rights to post about it on a forum without the resident Apple fans getting butt-hurt about it. They don't share the same enthusiasm of throwing money at overpriced products and you are miffed about that. Just let it go dude. ;)

[Mark]

I think we can all agree the device we chose is best, that's that then :)

[CaptainRaiden]

If anyone is lacking imagination and struggling to structure their posts, I have cracking range of templates I am willing to share. PM me for more details :)

No thanks. Not interested in overpriced, under-performing templates. :)

[CaptainRaiden]

I wouldn't by providing content so there may still be value for money. You nicked one already so you've shown some interest. Come on I know you love a bargain. :)

The answer is still no. I can get a better performing template for lesser elsewhere. Besides if I buy a set now, you'll release a slightly upgraded version next week and then I won't look cool in front of my friends anymore.

[CaptainRaiden]

Desktops, Tablets now a thing of the past? :)


Samsung Galaxy Note 2 now transforms into desktop PC | News | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/samsung-galaxy-note-2-now-transforms-into-desktop-pc-1109211)

It's certainly loaded enough to do the task, but the phone/tablet compromise is still a bit inconvenient.

On a second thought, it doesn't look that big when the reviewer is holding it:

zIWCXNMZSLo

Still a bit too wide for me, but then again, I'm guessing it will appeal to those select individuals for whom the pen functionality will really be essential.

[Malbec]

I am not a fan of the Kindle Fire as Amazon modified the Android OS heavily with their own UI, and whenever a manufacturer does that, the results are not so favorable, for example Motoblur.

Google's Nexus with Android JB is a much better alternative with a higher resolution, better hardware and comparable features, and is almost $130 cheaper. What's incredible is that Apple can charge up to $150 more for lesser resolution and lesser features in the iPad mini, and its fans have no problem gobbling it up without even thinking twice.

You're not gonna get any serious work done with a 7 inch tablet. What you use it for is basic stuff like reading books or magazines, playing a few tap-tap games (where better hardware always helps). And any of the 7 inch tablets can do that work very well, and comparatively close to one another.

As a consumer who looks at a product's bang for the buck, what is Apple offering extra in the iPad mini for $130? It's not just a gripe of mine, but many other unbiased tech review websites all over the internet.

I think you're missing the point.

While I agree that the iPad mini lacks spec compared to its Android competitors it fits in very well within the Apple range (and finally the small screen size for the iPhone 5 makes sense too). The iPad mini is there to offer a presence in the 7 inch market without threatening its 10 inch more profitable bigger brother.

But the main point is that I don't really believe consumers are going to be that bothered about technical specs. After all, why would they be buying a tablet in the first place if that was the case? I'm thinking vaguely about buying a tablet and I skip over the technical bits, reading reviews more on how easy they are to use and how they feel.

I think the whole ecosystem around the tablet is extremely important. Amazon provides this with their Kindles essentially being portable portals to their online paid for content. Google is trying something similar with Android tablets. Apple also already provides this with their iTunes system and loads of apps available too.

What sets Apple apart is that they are the only company that can charge a premium for the hardware and software too AND they have over 50% of the market still DESPITE their iPads not being the most technically advanced systems available. That gives them a significant advantage over their rivals who take the old-fashioned business model of selling hardware at cost price or a loss and hoping to make the money back on software.

[Malbec]

Actually from what i have read on various aviation forums, tablets are actually used by pilots in their everyday work.
They use it to store/view the type documentation that is not required to be in physical paper format.

FAA lets American Airlines pilots replace 35 pounds of paper with iPad tablets | Airline Biz Blog (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/09/faa-lets-american-airlines-pilots-replace-35-pounds-of-paper-with-ipad-tablets.html/)
Airlines and Tablets? [Archive] - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-63255.html)
American Airlines Expands Inflight iPad Program for Pilots | News & Opinion | PCMag.com (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409531,00.asp)
Tablets in cockpit: Pilots use gadget to get a hang of route, weather and destination - Economic Times (http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-04-11/news/31325042_1_air-india-pilot-tablets-dgca)
Airlines and Tablets? - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/63255-airlines-tablets.html)

The same is increasingly true in medicine too.

[CaptainRaiden]

I think you're missing the point.

I'm guessing all the major tech reviewers around the globe are missing the point as well. It's not just me bringing up this point, but almost everyone who knows anything about computers or tablets. Just one of them here:

The iPad Mini Seems Crazy Expensive | Gizmodo Australia (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/10/the-ipad-mini-seems-crazy-expensive/)


The 16GB Wi-Fi iPad Mini costs $369, which is more than a whopping $130 more than the equivalent Kindle Fire HD. That’s a 65 per cent premium for a device that’s not decidedly better in any way other than size and apps. It’s only 32 per cent pricier than the 16GB Nexus 7, but that may be for a limited time; Google’s expected to cut prices drastically next week.

There’s a temptation to say that it’s just Apple charging Apple prices, but that instinct is dated. The real genius of the original iPad wasn’t just that it was first — it was also cheapest. It took competitors a full year to come up with a tablet that could even remotely compete at $500. Ditto the MacBook Air of the last several years; it set a price so low for ultrabook-style computers that Intel had to start a $300 slush fund to help PC manufactures hit that price point. The Apple of the last two years, thanks in large part to its Apple Store retail dominance, has been simply unbeatable. Until now.

At best Apple’s iPad Mini pricing is misguided; at worst, it’s arrogant. Most of all though, it’s surprising, especially given how important smaller tablets are going to be for schools and kids, the trenches in which Amazon and Google are fighting for an entire generation of loyal users.


While I agree that the iPad mini lacks spec compared to its Android competitors it fits in very well within the Apple range (and finally the small screen size for the iPhone 5 makes sense too). The iPad mini is there to offer a presence in the 7 inch market without threatening its 10 inch more profitable bigger brother.

But the main point is that I don't really believe consumers are going to be that bothered about technical specs. After all, why would they be buying a tablet in the first place if that was the case? I'm thinking vaguely about buying a tablet and I skip over the technical bits, reading reviews more on how easy they are to use and how they feel.

You couldn't be more wrong here. In case you hadn't been paying attention, over the last 2 years there was global criticism of the first iPad and the iPad 2. So much so that Apple were forced to rush iPad 3 into the market with MUCH improved technical specs, almost two to three times better than its predecessor. They have addressed the hardware issue with the iPhone 5 as well, after widespread criticism of low tech specs of the 4S. So, yes, consumers are bothered by technical specs, and it has become important to the point that major manufacturers are now addressing that and keeping a close eye on consumer forums. Both Apple and Samsung are reported to have been lobbying benchmark testing websites to show a higher score in their flagship device's favor. Why would they do that if consumers are not interested?

Ease of use and feel are no longer major pluses in Apple's favor, as Android is closing the gap rapidly, as you can see from the higher rated jelly bean in the link I posted in one of my earlier posts. There's also a heavily tablet optimized version of jelly bean in the upcoming Nexus 10 tablet.


What sets Apple apart is that they are the only company that can charge a premium for the hardware and software too AND they have over 50% of the market still DESPITE their iPads not being the most technically advanced systems available. That gives them a significant advantage over their rivals who take the old-fashioned business model of selling hardware at cost price or a loss and hoping to make the money back on software.

They can charge that premium, because the marketplace consisting of Apple fans lets them. Because of widespread criticism, Apple addressed the hardware issue. In fact, I don't have a problem with the tech specs of the last two iterations of the iPad. Apple are FINALLY taking notice. And if enough criticisms continue, and consumers start to care about the bang-for-buck factor, which they ultimately will as better competition ups their game, Apple will be forced to slash some of their arrogant pricing too.

Yes, your average crowd doesn't bother about tech specs as long as they get their hands on the hottest product "marketed" in the usual neat, simplified Apple style, and I'm sure they won't worry about how their mini tablet is pushing 200 lesser ppi being $130 more expensive either. They will still add to Apple's mega profits, and frankly I could give a flying rat's a$$ about that. Apple's arrogant pricing still bothers me though and I can have a good old whinge about it wherever I want. ;)

[Malbec]

I'm guessing all the major tech reviewers around the globe are missing the point as well. It's not just me bringing up this point, but almost everyone who knows anything about computers or tablets. Just one of them here:

The iPad Mini Seems Crazy Expensive | Gizmodo Australia (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/10/the-ipad-mini-seems-crazy-expensive/)

As I said I fully appreciate that technically the iPad is behind its competitors at a greater cost.

However as my wife often says, things are worth what people pay for them, ie if Apple makes significant in-roads into the small tablet market with the price they're asking then it won't have been overpriced. If they fail then it is. Let the market decide.


You couldn't be more wrong here. In case you hadn't been paying attention, over the last 2 years there was global criticism of the first iPad and the iPad 2. So much so that Apple were forced to rush iPad 3 into the market with MUCH improved technical specs, almost two to three times better than its predecessor. They have addressed the hardware issue with the iPhone 5 as well, after widespread criticism of low tech specs of the 4S. So, yes, consumers are bothered by technical specs, and it has become important to the point that major manufacturers are now addressing that and keeping a close eye on consumer forums. Both Apple and Samsung are reported to have been lobbying benchmark testing websites to show a higher score in their flagship device's favor. Why would they do that if consumers are not interested?

Why? Because consumers are more interested in the content thats made available on tablets.

Lets get this straight. You're a geek and you love the technical aspects. Many people who buy tablets are also geeks. However the mainstream consumer is not a geek. They are not going to understand what a snapdragon processor is or what resolution their tablet has and whether its that much better or worse than the competitions. There are of course big boundaries like the ability to watch HD or not (and Apple is taking a big risk with that) but for the main this is true.

If you are going to sell 100s of millions of tablets you are selling to the mainstream, not to geeks.

Read this article:

iPad and Beyond: The Future of the Tablet Market | 1782214 (http://www.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?doc_cd=217137&ref=g_noreg)

Specifically this bit:

However, many vendors are making the same mistake that was made as a first response to the iPhone: they are prioritizing hardware features and technologies (see "Hype Cycle for Consumer Technologies, 2011" ) over applications, services and overall user experience.

They are also marketing these features as if consumers know what they mean, as with the Verizon's Motorola Xoom commercial: "Your wife will love the new Tegra 2 dual-core chipset." Tablets will be much more dependent on ecosystems than smartphones have been and the sooner vendors realize that, the better chance they have of competing head to head with Apple. HP's recent decision to abandon production of webOS products is a clear example of the pressure that vendors are under when trying to sell tablets (see "HP Drops webOS Devices, Creates Potential for Sale or Licensing" ). Rather than focusing on higher hardware specifications, vendors should be looking at partnering with content providers to deliver unique and compelling content to be consumed on their tablets. Alternatively, vendors should offer incentives to developers to create applications that fully exploit the capability of the tablet form-factor, to deliver a unique experience.

Consumers are buying tablets because of what they can do with them, and so applications, content and services, intuitive user interfaces and a good design are the vital attributes that have an impact on user experience and ultimately drive sales, not hardware features. This is why Apple still has an enormous advantage over its competitors in this segment at comparable prices. While other vendors focus on browsing the Internet and watching video on a tablet, Apple has been teaching consumers about the powerful synergy between apps and multitouch that deliver an experience that cannot be easily replicated on a PC.

This isn't from a techie website, its from a marketing research site that looks at the decisions that go into buying tablets.


They can charge that premium, because the marketplace consisting of Apple fans lets them. ;)

If you think that a product that got over 70% market share (at its peak) of an entire market got that purely due to Apple fans then I'm afraid you're seriously deluded.

If you want to actually understand how Apple does what it does you need to seriously start thinking deeper. What they've done has happened before in many other industries, especially car manufacturing once the market and product matures enough that things other than the hardware specifications become important enough.

[CaptainRaiden]

Lets get this straight. You're a geek and you love the technical aspects. Many people who buy tablets are also geeks. However the mainstream consumer is not a geek. They are not going to understand what a snapdragon processor is or what resolution their tablet has and whether its that much better or worse than the competitions. There are of course big boundaries like the ability to watch HD or not (and Apple is taking a big risk with that) but for the main this is true.

If you are going to sell 100s of millions of tablets you are selling to the mainstream, not to geeks.

Then why does Apple talk about how many pixels they have crammed into their "resolutionary" display in their iPad ads? If the mainstream consumer is so noobish to even understand the simple as hell processor speeds, what will they care what the resolution of their screen is? But yet, Apple proudly display that their iPad has a resolution of 2000 X 1500 pixels. I have seen, on more than one occasion, couples asking the store clerks in an Apple store or any tech store about the processor or the memory of a device. That's why that information is put below the display deck, not just for geeks, but also for the mainstream consumer, because they are getting wiser and are starting to take notice of these things. There's a reason why Samsung and Android's market share is increasing and why Apple took the legal route when it became too threatening.

I'll repeat again, if tech specs weren't relevant in today's world, Apple wouldn't have FINALLY put more beef into their new lineup of iPads and the iPhone 5, because the iOS 6 runs just fine even on the last generation iPod touch or the iPhone 4. The iPad mini is already getting heavily criticized, globally, for what it lacks, and it won't be long before Apple addresses that issue as well. The mainstream consumer is waking up, and they will soon be asking serious questions about Apple's high markup.

I have also seen consumers who will happily pay whatever price Apple charges, without asking why, and branding every other competitor as "cheap Chinese crap." I guess blindness and lack of awareness are some of the extra features in such sheep.

[CaptainRaiden]

Very often discussing these issues, it seems like:

Apple: Here it is, the new iPad Guacamole. It is sleeker, lighter and the best iPad yet. It costs $3000. The reason for the high price is our complete team effort and....

Apple fans: ZOMG no need to explain! Look how shiny it is! Shut up and take our money!

But hey, Apple can charge that money, because they just can. People will turn a blind eye to the fact that it's lacking behind its competitors in every area imaginable, and yet is 60% more expensive, and find miniscule reasons to justify the exorbitant price.

I might be forced in the future to buy an Apple product for work or business related stuff, (seems highly likely I'll have to buy a Macbook for FCP), and I would absolutely HATE to spend all that extra money. I could probably buy a comparable laptop and a car from that money.

Anyway, if I'm forced to dish out $800 extra for comparable hardware, I'm going to be one grumpy customer.

BUT, but, there's always a workaround. Hint: Hackintosh. :devil:

[Daniel]

Desktops, Tablets now a thing of the past? :)


Samsung Galaxy Note 2 now transforms into desktop PC | News | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/samsung-galaxy-note-2-now-transforms-into-desktop-pc-1109211)

I had a play with a Note 2 today and it seemed very laggy. Went into a phones 4 u in York today and they had dummy Lumia 920's on display with pricing and I asked what colours they had in stock and she said "all of them" at which point I was about to plonk cash down and buy one outright, at which point she said "Oh! I thought you meant the 800" several expletives were muttered in my head at this point :mad:

[Daniel]

I think you're missing the point.

While I agree that the iPad mini lacks spec compared to its Android competitors it fits in very well within the Apple range (and finally the small screen size for the iPhone 5 makes sense too).

Whilst I get the point you're trying to make, I think that you should always put your strongest product out there and try and rather than hobble your most important products (like the iPhone) so as to create a market for products to fill the gaps, just put out the product that people really want.

[Daniel]

Anyway I'm off to Belgium have a good ones guys :)


I know this thread can get heated but there's no need to do that to yourself

[Daniel]

Why I don't like Apple....... BBC News - Apple ordered to re-write 'inaccurate' Samsung statement (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20165664) Why do they need to be so arrogant? The judgement went against them and all they had to do was comply, but no.... they put up a sarcastic no-pology.

[Daniel]

We're still on XP, I suspect we'll be upgrading directly to Windows 15 when it comes out...

Meanwhile I've liked what I've seen with WP8 so far but unfortunately MS have lost me as a customer already. The Nokia 920 which looks like the best WP phone (with the HTC 8X getting lukewarm reviews) is exclusive to EE on a 4G connection which means it'll cost a fortune.

This isn't strictly true......


Nokia Lumia 920 to remain EE exclusive until (http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2221754/nokia-lumia-920-to-remain-ee-exclusive-until-at-least-next-year)

Was in phones4u today and they will still do a 920 on Orange and T-Mobile as the article above says, it's just that it's exclusive to EE on 4g :)

[Dave B]

If anyone is lacking imagination and struggling to structure their posts, I have cracking range of templates I am willing to share. PM me for more details :)

I've been on the internet and I found this:
Trollem Ipsum - Having trouble finding the right words? (http://trollemipsum.appspot.com/)

:D

[CaptainRaiden]

This isn't from a techie website, its from a marketing research site that looks at the decisions that go into buying tablets.

Look, I fully acknowledge the fact that Apple had the stroke of genius to reinvent the tablet as they did, and also with the smartphone, initially. I'm also aware of their marketing genius which simplifies complex products for the mainstream consumer, which also translates into their easy to use OS, and this has really been their biggest strength. There is a reason why they have become one of the biggest companies in the world.

I infact happen to like the tech specs and build quality of their last two iPads and the iPhone 5, even though iOS 6 leaves a lot to be desired.

But like in case of the latest iPad mini, when they're selling a technically inferior product (in all areas, tech specs or OS) at a 60% premium, it's just too much. I know the market will decide and users will buy what they like, blah, blah and all that repetitive jargon, but Apple aren't solving cancer with their iOS, and it's not even the best mobile OS anymore. And especially after the epic maps failure, the only thing going for them now is their brand name and legacy. Asking such a huge premium based only on that, now that IMO is arrogance.

[Malbec]

Look, I fully acknowledge the fact that Apple had the stroke of genius to reinvent the tablet as they did, and also with the smartphone, initially. I'm also aware of their marketing genius which simplifies complex products for the mainstream consumer, which also translates into their easy to use OS, and this has really been their biggest strength. There is a reason why they have become one of the biggest companies in the world.

I infact happen to like the tech specs and build quality of their last two iPads and the iPhone 5, even though iOS 6 leaves a lot to be desired.

But like in case of the latest iPad mini, when they're selling a technically inferior product (in all areas, tech specs or OS) at a 60% premium, it's just too much. I know the market will decide and users will buy what they like, blah, blah and all that repetitive jargon, but Apple aren't solving cancer with their iOS, and it's not even the best mobile OS anymore. And especially after the epic maps failure, the only thing going for them now is their brand name and legacy. Asking such a huge premium based only on that, now that IMO is arrogance.

I was going to reply to your older posts but since you've pretty much summarised it again here I'll respond to this one instead.

You say the only thing they have going for them is their brand name and legacy. I agree with that statement but I think you underestimate how powerful those two factors are.

Look at Ferrari for instance. A company started by a guy who viewed people who paid money to buy his cars as pieces of xxxx. A company that produced utter rubbish for nearly 40 years at an elevated price and somehow instead managed to convince punters that a supercar had to be unreliable, uncomfortable and difficult to drive to be worthy of being called one. A company who's response to criticism from guys who didn't buy into the dream was to dismiss or gag depending on how close they were.

Yet people still drool over the thought of getting one at a massively inflated price.

Thats the power of branding for you.

Likewise Apple has managed to get themselves viewed as a premium brand, the only one I can think of in consumer electronics. That on its own is worth more to the company than any iPad, iPhone or iAnythingElse. And thats why saying they're going to fail because their products aren't technically as good as their rivals is missing the point.

[CaptainRaiden]

Look at Ferrari for instance. A company started by a guy who viewed people who paid money to buy his cars as pieces of xxxx. A company that produced utter rubbish for nearly 40 years at an elevated price and somehow instead managed to convince punters that a supercar had to be unreliable, uncomfortable and difficult to drive to be worthy of being called one. A company who's response to criticism from guys who didn't buy into the dream was to dismiss or gag depending on how close they were.

First off, I have never been so in love with luxury sportscars like the Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Aston Martins of the world. Sure, they are nice to look at, sound good, and would be crazy fast, but I'm not daydreaming about winning a lottery and owning one. I'd rather pay my way to a Formula 1 seat. :D

Second, you can't really compare Ferrari and Apple. It's comparing Apple with oranges, literally.

Ferrari make their product, the whole car from scratch, i.e. the chassis, bodywork, engine, interiors, electronics etc. is all designed and manufactured in-house at their factory.

Apple source a subset of PC hardware (same hardware used by competitors for their flagship devices as well) and mobile chips packaged with their own OS and design.

Ferrari have a history of competing in almost all forms of motorsports, mainly Formula 1 since 1950, and because of said history, have been able to maintain the marquee as a status symbol for the rich. Apple have no such pedigree, and even if they have, it can't be greater than Microsoft's. But they have used effective marketing tools to attract the mainstream consumer much better than their competitors.

(Having said that, when my wife saw the ad for the iPhone 5, she said "I can't believe people fall for this." )

Over the last decade or so, Ferrari have had one of the fastest and best handling production cars in the world, tested by all major car reviewers, and the performance validated in several championships they field their cars in. They have regularly done better around a track than similarly specced MUCH cheaper alternatives like the Corvette. Still, when people want cheap alternatives for drag racing, they'd rather go for a much cheaper Corvette or a Nissan GTR. Track performance though is a different story, and a Ferrari or a Porsche may be much better, and so warrant the extra money.

Apple computers and smartphones however, even if they do look good, are regularly beaten by PC competitors in benchmark testing all over the world. You can get a comparably or better specced PC for up to $1000 less on a regular basis. I believe this is the reason for which Apple get so much flack from tech enthusiasts.

They are good products with clean, solid build quality and a good OS, but IMO that's not good enough to warrant almost double the price. As a possible future forced customer, it pisses me off that I would have to overpay by that much.


Yet people still drool over the thought of getting one at a massively inflated price.

Thats the power of branding for you.

That's partly because of their F1 history, and then people like Jeremy Clarkson pretty much kissing Ferrari's backside on national TV and telling the whole world that the F40 is the best supercar in history. A LOT of people watch Top Gear.


Likewise Apple has managed to get themselves viewed as a premium brand, the only one I can think of in consumer electronics. That on its own is worth more to the company than any iPad, iPhone or iAnythingElse. And thats why saying they're going to fail because their products aren't technically as good as their rivals is missing the point.

That remains to be seen. :) Apple has already started to lose market share to major competitors like Samsung and Android, with the latter pretty much destroying iOS during the last quarter. As far as brands go, yes, Apple are still ahead, but that may change soon as well, because the market share of iPhone 5 is only slightly ahead of Galaxy S3, and I am pleasantly surprised because I expected the iPhone 5 to comfortably spank the S3 once it launched. That however hasn't happened.

The loss of Steve Jobs is showing in the mismanaged launch of the half-baked iOS 6 with the craptastic Maps. Even one of my friends, a self admitted Apple fan, said with a dejected face, "Apple are going down with the iPhone 5." While that's too drastic a statement and I don't believe it will ever happen, but Apple are not doing themselves any favors with the maps debacle.

In the computer world, yes, Apple's growth is visible, but the launch of Windows 8 may change that (even though Microsoft's marketing leaves a lot to be desired). PC still rules as far as overall sales are concerned. Apple may be selling more branded computers, but that's not taking into account the assembled PCs which still hold a large chunk of the PC market with millions of PC hardware bits sold every day. The number of "geeks" that I know, myself included, have NEVER bought a branded computer, choosing to build or assemble them ourselves.

[Malbec]

Ferrari make their product, the whole car from scratch, i.e. the chassis, bodywork, engine, interiors, electronics etc. is all designed and manufactured in-house at their factory.

???

No they don't. Substantial parts of the car especially things like the transmission, electronics and brakes (as well as a lot of smaller components) are bought in from suppliers. Some are supplied as complete subsystems to Ferrari.

Ferrari have adopted the Toyota Production System principle just as any other car maker has which involves delegating a lot of the production to outside suppliers. Over the last two decades they've overhauled their manufacturing system to be as lean and efficient as possible to maximise profitability and this means outsourcing.

Apple used to manufacture in-house too but in the hunt for profitability closed its US factories and outsourced to the Far East. This is elementary cost and risk cutting.


Apple have no such pedigree, and even if they have, it can't be greater than Microsoft's. But they have used effective marketing tools to attract the mainstream consumer much better than their competitors.

Out of curiosity whats the computer equivalent of motorsports?


Over the last decade or so, Ferrari have had one of the fastest and best handling production cars in the world, tested by all major car reviewers, and the performance validated in several championships they field their cars in.

Only over the last decade have their products been as good as the hype, but their premium reputation was cemented back in the '60s. Ferraris were poor cars to drive and own until the late 90s or so.

Gordon Murray is pretty blunt when he talks about what car he benchmarked when he designed the McLaren F1. He dismisses the Ferraris of the day as utter rubbish and goes on about how he used the Honda NSX instead. Ferrari did too which is why subsequent Ferraris became much more reliable and driveable.


Track performance though is a different story, and a Ferrari or a Porsche may be much better, and so warrant the extra money.

Warrant the extra money over what? For track performance I'd rather have a Radical or a Ginetta which cost a fraction of a Ferrari. Porsches are cheaper too. You seem to have bought into the Ferrari brand myth ;)

But if you don't like the Ferrari analogy try BMW, Chanel, Panerai, Prada or Veuve Cliquot. Try any premium brand in fact.


That remains to be seen. :) Apple has already started to lose market share to major competitors like Samsung and Android, with the latter pretty much destroying iOS during the last quarter. As far as brands go, yes, Apple are still ahead, but that may change soon as well, because the market share of iPhone 5 is only slightly ahead of Galaxy S3, and I am pleasantly surprised because I expected the iPhone 5 to comfortably spank the S3 once it launched. That however hasn't happened.

Why this obsession with market share? Its profitability that counts. Market share means nothing, in fact having a share thats too large means that your brand becomes ubiquitous which can harm the premium image. Thats why companies like Ferrari often restrict manufacturing numbers for certain models, to maintain exclusivity.


The loss of Steve Jobs is showing in the mismanaged launch of the half-baked iOS 6 with the craptastic Maps. Even one of my friends, a self admitted Apple fan, said with a dejected face, "Apple are going down with the iPhone 5." While that's too drastic a statement and I don't believe it will ever happen, but Apple are not doing themselves any favors with the maps debacle.

Apple are going to make a mistake. They will at some point not spot a new trend and miss out significantly. Companies do that, Microsoft did, Sony did, its the way of the world so your friend may have got it wrong with the iPhone 5 but he's right in the long term. The question is not if but when.


In the computer world, yes, Apple's growth is visible, but the launch of Windows 8 may change that (even though Microsoft's marketing leaves a lot to be desired). PC still rules as far as overall sales are concerned. Apple may be selling more branded computers, but that's not taking into account the assembled PCs which still hold a large chunk of the PC market with millions of PC hardware bits sold every day. The number of "geeks" that I know, myself included, have NEVER bought a branded computer, choosing to build or assemble them ourselves.

As I said before market share is irrelevant if you have good profitability.

Microsoft of course dominates the PC OS market but their profitability there is low and the market is shrinking as people start to use tablets in lieu of both laptops and desktops for certain functions. That is why they are desperate to crack the smartphone/tablet market. I wish them luck, in fact of the three I support Microsoft the most because what the market needs is a strong third player to break up the Apple/Google duopoly.

[CaptainRaiden]

???

No they don't. Substantial parts of the car especially things like the transmission, electronics and brakes (as well as a lot of smaller components) are bought in from suppliers. Some are supplied as complete subsystems to Ferrari.

That's not what I saw recently in a Megafactories featurette on the Ferrari factory on the Discovery channel, with them showing the step-by-step manufacturing I believe of the 599. The engine, gearbox, electronics, brake calipers and even the leather upholstery, sewing and stamping was done in-house. May have been an old feature (didn't look though) and at this point you may have a better idea of what happens inside of a Ferrari factory. I know Ferrari has been outsourcing a lot lately.

Still, it's not like Ferrari is using a Corvette engine on their chassis with a carbon fiber body and Ferrari electronics and selling it at a premium. An Apple Macbook with the same Core i5 processor is at times up to $1000 more expensive than its competitor. And as a future possible customer, that is simply unacceptable. OS X is not gonna get me out of bed and make my breakfast for me.


Out of curiosity whats the computer equivalent of motorsports?

None, and that's why Apple has no rich history. Well, I don't know, maybe benchmark testing websites, where Apple has never won, like ever.


Only over the last decade have their products been as good as the hype, but their premium reputation was cemented back in the '60s. Ferraris were poor cars to drive and own until the late 90s or so.

Gordon Murray is pretty blunt when he talks about what car he benchmarked when he designed the McLaren F1. He dismisses the Ferraris of the day as utter rubbish and goes on about how he used the Honda NSX instead. Ferrari did too which is why subsequent Ferraris became much more reliable and driveable.

Like I said, I have never been a fan of luxury sportscars. Super cars, maybe yes, but not the Ferraris of the world. I really don't get the Ferrari hype. Yeah, so they've been in F1 since 1950, "Oh, look at us, and our red colored cars and the prancing horse." Whoop dee doo. In the same way, I don't really care about the brand attractiveness of Apple either.

While I do acknowledge the fact that the Final Cut Pro software made by Apple is in a league of its own, and a superior product, as a consumer, I shouldn't be forced to pay $1000 extra for it for comparable hardware, because the rest of it has no significance for me. Because I know that for that money I can get a much, much higher specced PC and get the same job done using Avid or Adobe Premiere and render the final video in half the time. But if I'm forced to work on FCP, it's really a pain in the neck to cough the ridiculous amount of extra money.


Warrant the extra money over what? For track performance I'd rather have a Radical or a Ginetta which cost a fraction of a Ferrari. Porsches are cheaper too. You seem to have bought into the Ferrari brand myth ;)

Not me, but a lot of rich folks would rather have a shiny red Ferrari recommended by Jeremy Clarkson in their driveway, than a rather clunky and ugly looking Radical. But then again, Ferrari with their resources and racing operations have made sure that Ferrari have a good showing in all international competitions they compete in. Apple however have not won a benchmark test since Eve took a bite of the forbidden fruit.


Apple are going to make a mistake. They will at some point not spot a new trend and miss out significantly. Companies do that, Microsoft did, Sony did, its the way of the world so your friend may have got it wrong with the iPhone 5 but he's right in the long term. The question is not if but when.

As I said before market share is irrelevant if you have good profitability.

Microsoft of course dominates the PC OS market but their profitability there is low and the market is shrinking as people start to use tablets in lieu of both laptops and desktops for certain functions. That is why they are desperate to crack the smartphone/tablet market. I wish them luck, in fact of the three I support Microsoft the most because what the market needs is a strong third player to break up the Apple/Google duopoly.

Agreed. :up: I've got to run now and enjoy a well deserved weekend after a long time. I hope we have kick-ass new products from all three firms and have healthy competition, so that in the end us as consumers win. Have a great one, and we may continue this later.

[Mark]

I think mobile phones / tablets and desktops are a completely different market. I wouldn't consider an Apple desktop or laptop as there's little to choose between Windows and OSX, and indeed Windows has many advantages and it runs on commodity hardware.

However the mobile market is a different one. Part of Apples master stroke with tables IMO wasn't inventing them, because they didn't, previous attempts were to shrink a desktop OS for use on a tablet. Apple decided to take a phone OS and grow it, which was a much more usuable solution.

[Mark]

Off topic but certain parts of the electronics systems inside the Ferrari road cars are manufactured in a place just outside Liverpool UK. Most car manufacturers source components from suppliers. I should imagine most smartphones also contain components manufactured from various different countries but its the design done in house. :)


The screens from the iPad Mini are confirmed to come from Samsung.

[Dave B]

(Having said that, when my wife saw the ad for the iPhone 5, she said "I can't believe people fall for this." )

My favourite Apple advert at the moment is the one where they pretend they're the only ones clever enough to notice that earbuds need to be the shape of an ear - just like those 99p ones you've been able to get in the market for several years. Genius :D

[Mark]

I had a look at the iPad Mini today. Well more of a glance as the Apple shop was completely rammed.

Seems exactly the right size for a sitting on the sofa tablet with a nice looking quality screen too. Makes the full size iPad look big and unwieldy, but then I thought that anyway!

[janneppi]

Seems exactly the right size for a sitting on the sofa tablet with a nice looking quality screen too. Makes the full size iPad look big and unwieldy, but then I thought that anyway!
A colleague of mine bought the 7" Nexus just for that, browsing web on the couch. After one afternoon with a full size tablet doing the same few months ago , I might consider one of these smaller tablets myself. IMO 10" tablets aren't really well suited for sofa use because of the weight and size.

[BleAivano]

A colleague of mine bought the 7" Nexus just for that, browsing web on the couch. After one afternoon with a full size tablet doing the same few months ago , I might consider one of these smaller tablets myself. IMO 10" tablets aren't really well suited for sofa use because of the weight and size.

That is why Surface have a built in stand. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

My favourite Apple advert at the moment is the one where they pretend they're the only ones clever enough to notice that earbuds need to be the shape of an ear - just like those 99p ones you've been able to get in the market for several years. Genius :D

But the 99p ones don't quite exquisitely stimulate your ear drums like the Apple ones do, Dave. ;)

[Mark]

Apple iPad Mini 8in tablet review ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/05/apple_ipad_mini_review/) Keep in mind that The Register is no fanboi site, they are usually pretty harsh on Apple.

[SGWilko]

Biggest hangup for all tablets for me is the lack of 'built in' or 'standard' external keyboard.

Trying to work on a citrix session is a nightmare!

[Mark]

I submit that no tablet is going to give you a good experience in that regard.

[Mark]

The Surface advert is awful!

[Mark]

It seems so : Surface disk space | Surface storage | Available disk space on Microsoft Surface (http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/support/surface-with-windows-RT/files-folders-and-online-storage/surface-disk-space-faq)

Disk space? Disk?

[Mark]

My iPhone is 32Gb and has 28Gb for storage, which isn't too bad.

[donKey jote]

I handled one today (set my colleague's language to Korean :andrea: )...
felt OK, but I haven't handled a Nexus yet :p

[CaptainRaiden]

Prizefight: Apple iPad Mini vs. Google Nexus 7 | Prizefight - CNET (http://cnettv.cnet.com/8301-13484_53-57545926-10391694/prizefight-apple-ipad-mini-vs-google-nexus-7/)

No surprises there with the Nexus 7 winning, especially considering how Cnet has been biased towards Apple in the past. :D

It's pretty equal in a lot of areas for the two tablets, but with the better OS, display and price point being the deciding factors in favor of the Nexus 7. Throw in an additional NFC bonus, and it's no longer a competition IMO, especially seeing how you can share data with other phones and tablets in a matter of seconds via NFC.

Still don't understand why Apple keeps holding back on such key features, and can still justify their ridiculous price premium. Most probably their marketing department is waiting to rename NFC for their next device. It's probably gonna be called "Apple file transfer revolution" or "iTouch me tender" or "iBackside transfer" or some crap like that.

[CaptainRaiden]

Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD 'outperform' iPad Mini display | Apple - CNET News (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57546140-37/nexus-7-kindle-fire-hd-outperform-ipad-mini-display/)

Display comparo for the three major players in the 7 inch tablet market.

Also interesting is this bit from Techradar's largely favorable review of the iPad mini:


We disliked

The lack of a Retina display is so, so frustrating as that's the killer feature (along with, perhaps, a slightly faster processor) that would have meant we gave the iPad mini our first five star tablet review. It's that good. But the screen is too fuzzy at times compared to the likes of the new iPad or iPhone 5 to consider it a dazzling display, and that's a real shame.

The low-power GPU is also sadly lacking, even for the price point, and while we've long given up on looking for expandable storage or a removable battery on these devices, 16GB of storage isn't enough for the plethora of large apps and HD content we're interested in downloading onto this device.

While for a lot of people $130 extra may not seem as much, and a lot will pay willingly, because hey, it's Apple after all, for a lot of other folks money does matter.

I'm not in the market to buy a tablet, but if I really wanted to be lazy on the couch and browse through the exciting lives of show-offs on Facebook, any of the 7 inch tablets will do the job perfectly. I would probably add in $70 extra to the price of one iPad mini and get two Nexus 7s, one for my wife as well. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

Some of us don't see it as a competition full stop. I see it as two very nice tablets both with positives and negatives that appeal to different people. I'm sure both will sell very well.

Whether you like to believe so or not, products from rival companies will always be in competition with each other, full stop.

[Malbec]

Just had an email from Gizmodo with the review of the Nokia Lumia 920 and its not something Daniel would agree with in its entirety.

Lumia 920 Review: Just Too Damn Heavy (http://gizmodo.com/5957795/lumia-920-review-just-too-damn-heavy?utm_source=Gizmodo+Newsletter&utm_campaign=de3a6e3be9-UA-142218-3&utm_medium=email)

That's quite a chunk to have in your pocket I have to say. Then again if I needed to smash a muggers head in, I think I'd wish I had the Nokia in my pocket rather than slapping them with an iPhone. :)

So instead of being stupendously light its just very light...

Still it doesn't seem to be the killer phone it was meant to be which is the disappointing bit, especially in view of the camera performance.

[Malbec]

Still don't understand why Apple keeps holding back on such key features, and can still justify their ridiculous price premium.

Apple cannot as a brand offer the same product for the same money as non-premium competitors. It HAS to charge more. Again this boils back down to maintaining premium brand status. Offering the product for the price its competitors charge would have long term negative implications for the Apple brand.

This isn't about features anymore...

[Dave B]

Apple cannot as a brand offer the same product for the same money as non-premium competitors. It HAS to charge more. Again this boils back down to maintaining premium brand status. Offering the product for the price its competitors charge would have long term negative implications for the Apple brand.

This isn't about features anymore...
That's the strangest thing. A few years back Apple products were superior in almost every respect to their rivals and they could justify the premium price. Then a tiny handful of devices started to match them both for specs and overall experience, but Apple still had enough cachet to justify the difference.

But now? The Nexus massively undercuts the iPad, there are handsets for literally half the price of an iPhone which match it's performance (the Nexus 4 is a simply staggering price point), and consumers are quickly understanding that there's Apples are not the only fruit. I simply can't see Apple maintaining anything like their current market share without either a radical refresh of their hardware and OS, or an acceptance that they have to cut prices and margins.

Amazon and Google are moving towards the razorblade pricing structure: sell the devices at a tiny profit but make your money down the line on purchases and advertising. I'd be surprised if either of them make more than $10 on the sale of a Kindle or Nexus tablet, but they're capturing market share at a phenomenal rate.

[Malbec]

That's the strangest thing. A few years back Apple products were superior in almost every respect to their rivals and they could justify the premium price. Then a tiny handful of devices started to match them both for specs and overall experience, but Apple still had enough cachet to justify the difference.

It goes further than that IMO, you also got more for your money then. I bought a gen 2 iPod which came beautifully packed (so much so I felt almost guilty opening up the vacuum packed earplugs etc) with a case and a dock as part of the price. It felt you were buying something from NASA, not an MP3 player. Get one now and all thats included is a powerpack and earplugs, all cheaply packed. Everything else is of course extra.


I simply can't see Apple maintaining anything like their current market share without either a radical refresh of their hardware and OS, or an acceptance that they have to cut prices and margins.

Amazon and Google are moving towards the razorblade pricing structure: sell the devices at a tiny profit but make your money down the line on purchases and advertising. I'd be surprised if either of them make more than $10 on the sale of a Kindle or Nexus tablet, but they're capturing market share at a phenomenal rate.

Apple don't need marketshare, they need profitability which they have in spades. I'd argue that losing significant marketshare for them has its plus sides as the brand then becomes less ubiquitous and therefore gains exclusivity.

Everything you've said about Apple could be said about BMW offering a similar product to non-premium rivals at a significant premium at both initial purchase and servicing yet they get away with it. Once you get to become a premium brand market psychology changes completely, all in favour of the seller.

Of their rivals Amazon are the only ones who are emulating the same businessmodel and yet they can't charge a premium for their hardware for the reasons you described. Google don't make hardware and the phone manufacturers don't make money on the software or downloaded content. Only Apple and Amazon are involved at every step of the process to extract profit.

Unless Apple seriously mismanage their brand (like making a series of Maps-like failures) they'll find it very difficult to lose their premium status and thus their profitability if other consumer goods are a reliable indicator.

[Mark]

Can I say - again - that I hate Apple shops; sorry "Apple Retail Stores"

I was in buying a peripheral at the weekend. Now in a normal shop you'd go and pick an item off the shelf, take it to the checkout, maybe wait in a queue, then pay for your goods, they're bagged and you're away.

Not so in an Apple shop - there's no checkouts, only the blue shirts walking around with iPhones with credit card things on them. So you've got your peripheral you have to stop a blue shirt, you try catching their eye, nope, doesn't work. Then it's "Excuse me?!" "Sorry I'm with two other customers" .. "Excuse me?!" .. ignored. Until you eventually find someone who isn't endlessly explaining to an elderly couple why an iPad needs "wifi", who can actually take your money off you.

[CaptainRaiden]

I'm aware in a business sense these companies are in competition with one another. They wouldn't be suing each other if they were not would they? This isn't some revelation you've brought to my attention and is basic economics. My point is not every consumer gives a toss about certain features one has over the other and vice versa.

But a lot of them do, and the comparison link was for their benefit. If you're not interested in looking at comparisons or pros and cons of different products in competition, just ignore such posts in the future. Nobody is forcing you, personally, to buy a tablet you don't want, neither did I quote you specifically, so why take exception? This thread doesn't revolve around you, henners. :) It seems you can't stand Apple being criticized even in the slightest and jump to defend it hammer and tongs. There will always be criticisms of every product. Learn to let it go.


Its clear there is a market for people like yourself on a budget and who want the best spec on paper for their money and there are others who buy what they like. I'm sure you like a product also for personal reasons. If they have to pay a bit more and are happy with their purchase then that shouldn't matter.

Let me get this straight. Are you assuming that I don't buy products that I like, but rather products that fit my budget and get the biggest bang for buck? Are you somehow implying that I like Apple products, but since I can't afford them, choose to criticize them? If yes, that is a rather arrogant, simplistic and elitist point of view and you couldn't be more wrong. To be very clear, not one Apple product ever has interested me even one iota. I've had ample time to play with iMacs and Macbooks and iPhones, and never desired any one of them, not even the first ever iPhone. Not saying they are not good products, but for someone who knows what is under the hood of their electronic product, they don't appeal to me.

When I was in the market to buy a laptop two years ago, I could have very well bought a Macbook, but instead bought a Dell laptop with superior hardware and a 42 inch LG TV with the same amount of money. Was the best purchase decision I ever made. So, no, I buy what I like. It just happens to be that what I like are non-Apple products. I don't care about aesthetics or "feel" or let simplistically dumb marketing ads sway my opinion. I care about performance and have even built gaming monster PCs for as much as $2000 in the past.


The Nexus has a better quality screen than the iPad Mini and the review I posted also says this, fair enough. The deal breaker for me is the OS. You state that the OS on the Nexus is superior and that's great, but for me I would go with the opposite. I would prefer the OS on the iPad and be happy in the knowledge that I personally think its better based on what I like. You can't argue with that and any amount of technical stats and guff is not going to make me agree with you. Some people buy what they like, and not based on peer pressure because others disagree.

But, but, I am not trying to have you agree with me. I could actually give a flying rat's ass about what tablet you choose to buy. If you think the iOS is a better OS, then good for you, even if the actual tech experts globally think otherwise. Apple has dropped the ball with their maps, which is one of the most important features of a mobile device, and that has hurt the reputation of their OS quite a bit. At the same time it's been criticized for being an aging OS with limited features and having a walled garden feel. This is just not me talking, but it is the universal opinion of almost every tech expert. Sales growth of Android seems to support this fact. You seem to be quite adamant to not recognize this fact.

If the Apple OS is better in your opinion, then good for you. You should be happy with your purchase and not try to defend it. What people say on message boards shouldn't affect how you feel about your purchase, and you shouldn't take Apple criticisms personally, as it seems every time somebody does so, you are quick to jump to try and defend them with the same repetitive rhetoric.

[CaptainRaiden]

What the what...? :p


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d5xkULjc50

[Dave B]

Can I say - again - that I hate Apple shops; sorry "Apple Retail Stores"

I was in buying a peripheral at the weekend. Now in a normal shop you'd go and pick an item off the shelf, take it to the checkout, maybe wait in a queue, then pay for your goods, they're bagged and you're away.

Not so in an Apple shop - there's no checkouts, only the blue shirts walking around with iPhones with credit card things on them. So you've got your peripheral you have to stop a blue shirt, you try catching their eye, nope, doesn't work. Then it's "Excuse me?!" "Sorry I'm with two other customers" .. "Excuse me?!" .. ignored. Until you eventually find someone who isn't endlessly explaining to an elderly couple why an iPad needs "wifi", who can actually take your money off you.
I wonder if that was the influence of the now departed idiot from Dixons who thought that shedding staff and paying lower wages would result in better service. Maybe now he's gone his changes can be reversed.

I've only ever set foot in an Apple store once, to browse, and I found the experience quite good: polite attentive staff who introduced themselves but then left me alone when I said I was just looking. Normally I hear good things about their service.

[CaptainRaiden]

I responded because this is a discussion forum and because I thought I had something to add. I don't defend Apple on everything and if I did then I would buy more of their products. As far as phones go I like their products more than anything else. Laptops, desktops I purchase other things. The repetition of the same points on this thread are coming from both of us it seems. I responded to your post even though the questions you asked have had answers given many times in the past to which you have dismissed.

No.

No I wasn't implying that. A sentence right in the middle of the part you quoted is key to this.

I have no problem with that opinion whatsoever. I don't think I need to answer this part now that is cleared up.

Fair enough.


My experience with Dell is very different as I have said in the past. Its been back to be repaired twice in 11 months and has put me off ever buying anything Dell ever again. My next laptop will be a PC but it won't be a pile of shyte hopefully.

Dell laptops seem to be producing such problems randomly. For example, my Dell hasn't sprung one single problem in the last two years. The battery also surprisingly lasts between 2 to 2.5 hours regularly. But my sister bought a Dell and had a battery problem within the first 21 days, which they replaced of course. Then again, a friend who bought a Macbook at the same time as I bought my Dell, has gone to the Apple store three times to get it repaired or replaced.


Their own maps do not work as well as the Google predecessor, but there are free alternatives like Nav Free for sat nav software and google maps still work in the browser. The Maps thing didn't really have any effect on my experience whatsoever.

What you are suggesting henners are workarounds. Workarounds for an epic fail product from a premium brand, which should not happen, especially if you're paying close to freaking $800 for their devices. It took Google 7 years of constant mule like work to perfect their Maps app. Can Apple perfect their product in half that time? I doubt it. Maybe it didn't affect you, but for a lot of daily commuters, it's a deal breaker. It's a hilarious failure, and such unfinished product by a premium brand like Apple is simply unacceptable, and you know that, henners. How can you justify this catastrophe by Apple is beyond me. I would be on Google's case pretty hard if they ever made any such blunder.


It may well be an aging OS but its still a very good OS. Sales growth of Android is not just due to them being better than Apple, it has a lot to do with affordability with handset being as cheap as 40 quid. More are sold because not only are multiple manufacturers producing handsets with the Android OS, but they cover a broad range of pricing. Apple are a sole manufacturer competing against a group of market players. They don't have to produce products to be affordable to every man and by playing the market with a premium product, means they have remained popular.

While that may have been true in the past, not any more so, as I have proven with links from various tech magazines, Android trumps Apple's latest offering in every department. Plus, flagship smartphones from various manufacturers have piled up and have given their own little boost to Android. Of course, cheaper phones also helped. But the growth really has been on the top end. For example, the current market share for the iPhone 5 and Galaxy S3 is 56%-44%. And I expected the iPhone 5 to comfortably be ahead, and not by such a small margin.


I am very happy with my purchase but can't for the life of me understand how you thing you can tell me I shouldn't defend it. I don't take Apple criticisms personally at all, but enjoy learning why they are disliked so much. Please don't be under the false impression that what I read you writing here has any impact on how I feel about my purchase. I don't sit here looking at my iPhone crying and wishing I had saved a couple of hundred quid and bought the S3 instead. I do think by suggesting I am defending them with the same 'repetitive rhetoric' is rather cheeky considering you yourself are making the same points over and over and claiming not to have been given any answers.

Sometimes it's like you're incapable of understanding or better yet, accepting the fact that there is a big percentage of users who dislike Apple products. You keep on repeating the same rhetoric like "People will buy what they like, Apple make premium products, the interface is smooth, I don't feel the hardware is inadequate", blah de blah, about a 1000 times already. Yes, in your opinion Apple is the best thing since sliced bread, but learn to accept others may not share the same opinion, as I have already proven with various different links. It's nauseating.


If you didn't give a 'rats ass' what phone or tablet others buy, then the fact Apple charge more wouldn't even be on your radar.

Again, a simplistic way of looking at things. As a future, and I might add forced, customer of an Apple product, it pisses me off to no end that I would have to overpay for a product. Did I tell you that you made the wrong choice when you bought your iPhone 5? No, so then what's the reasoning behind your statement above, may I ask?

[Mark]

Yes. To be fair the shop was rammed. I wanted to try out an iPad Mini. No chance; couldn't get anywhere near.

Apples answer is to use the Apple Store app to scan the item myself and then pay through my iTunes account. Which would have been fine if I could get a phone signal inside the shop ; I couldn't. So went through the process and it ended up hanging on 'processing' for 5 minutes before telling me to find a member of staff!

[Mark]

Yeah. It knows when you are near the shop and you do scan the barcode and pay for it through your phone. If you can then just walk out I have no idea I didn't get that far.

[Mark]

I dunno. I've used my clubcard on my iPhone before. I half expected the checkout man to be like 'ooh look at that' but he just scanned the screen. I suppose he sees dozens every day.

Remember having a mobile phone at all used to be seen as quite pretentious. Now it's entirely normal.

[CaptainRaiden]

Perhaps I do come across like I jump on any criticism, but as much as I should accept not everyone likes the Apple iPhone, you need to accept there are people that do and may just say something if a thread is dominated by mocking something they have bought.

But you haven't bought the iPad mini. Why does its criticism bother you?

You have criticized Samsung, Google and Microsoft (just recently), three companies that I am mildly fond of, but I've not gotten riled up over it. In fact I will post something genuinely funny anti-Samsung or anti-Microsoft if I come across it just as I do often for my friends on Facebook. I have read plenty of people criticizing the Galaxy S3 here and all over the internet without getting offended.


I've repeated points hundreds of times here but lets be frank, you have done exactly the same and I think between us we have put a lot of new posters off contributing to this thread.

I don't really care about that TBH. People can talk about whatever they want here, I'm not stopping them. Neither do I nanny people around here telling them what they should be talking about or not, or to get off or change a topic.


We have said a couple of times in the past that we should just accept each others opinions and not debate against each other. I will openly admit I am incapable of reading your posts here without reacting. I'm taking a step here that I have never done in the past but I think its for the good of this thread and will enable me to contribute to this thread without engaging with yourself. It all seems rather silly, but I enjoy talking about gadgets without confrontation. I'm sure you are a good bloke and I seem to agree with you on many aspects of motorsport, but this topic put me in a position which I think needs to be dealt with by myself rather than ruining the thread for everyone else. No offence and thanks for the chats. :)

As you see fit. ;) I don't really care either way and will debate on points I'm interested in as long as there's something to talk about.

[Mark]

I have bought the iPad Mini. Although I don't get to use it until Christmas.

[CaptainRaiden]

Just wanted to post a quick review of a battery saving app for the Android users over here, before I hit the sack.

Link here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.latedroid.juicedefender&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5sY XRlZHJvaWQuanVpY2VkZWZlbmRlciJd

I had my SGS3 pulling up emails from four company accounts (set to check every 10 minutes for quick correspondence), two yahoo and two Gmail accounts, that's 8 email accounts checked every few minutes. Coupled with some music, video playback and gaming, the phone was running out of battery from 100% to 0% in about 7 hours. It goes fine for 3 days if it's only one or two accounts, but 8 email accounts seem too heavy to handle. The phone would eat through its battery and be dead in the morning when I woke up if I hadn't kept it charging.

I don't like to use the phone's power saving feature, as it makes the interface quite choppy. So, I installed the juice defender app, and it's brilliant. It cuts off all radios and does some other energy saving stuff once the screen goes off and automatically connects to wi-fi or 3G data only every 20 minutes to check for email and then cuts it off again. Discharged only 70% in over 26 hours and there's no choppiness. It's perfect, so much so that I'm considering buying the full app.

[Mark]

Not sure what you mean as you can't buy iPad 3 any more. Or do you mean iPad 2. But then I'm still confused about 'stretch to iPad Mini' as this is the cheapest of the iPads.

[CaptainRaiden]

I have bought the iPad Mini. Although I don't get to use it until Christmas.

Why not? Is it not available straightaway? I believe one of my friend's already got one through Amazon UK.

[Mark]

Because it's a Christmas present. :)

[Mark]

Henners. Fair enough if you can get a good deal then go for it!

[CaptainRaiden]

Because it's a Christmas present. :)

Aaaaaaah. :D

[Mark]

The iPad mini should of course be viewed in such that its a racing certainty that it will have a 326ppi 'retina' display before the end of 2013.

[CaptainRaiden]

Of course, as Apple would firstly address the biggest talking point of their current iPad mini with their next release.

[Mark]

Some speed test results are interesting:

http://regmedia.co.uk/2012/11/06/ipad4_8.png

[Dave B]

I do think they missed a trick by not including a retina display though. Its already selling well in time for Xmas and my brother has already had the request from my niece. :)
I think the depressing thing is that we all know there'll be a retina version out within the next few months and a price reduction on the current mini - surely people know by now never to buy the first iteration of any Apple product.

[Dave B]

That's true to an extent. My wife bought an iPad 3 and we knew full well an iPad 4 would be out within a year and was likely to contain better features. I suppose it depends on the desire you have at the time. Mark's got the mini for Xmas and even when the retina version comes out, his original device will still be a very nice tablet and very capable. I think whatever brand you buy in today's market comes with the knowledge that it'll be replaced or slightly out of date within a limited time frame.
Oh I accept that's true of any technology, there's never a right time to buy as there'll always be something better/cheaper within months. Weeks, sometimes.

[Mark]

That was true even when I were a lad. My Dad would say "Oh why not just wait as there will be something better out" - Well there will always be something better out soon; that's the nature of technology.

Having a good idea about product cycles does help however; to avoid buying an old product a week before the new one is released; but when making any purchase above a few hundred pounds you need to put in your research anyway, and in these days of that there internet, there's no excuse for not putting in the effort.

Another example - Last Christmas I bought a Blu-Ray player - partly because it had iPlayer, now about 10 months later I can get iPlayer on my Sky box thus rendering the Blu Ray a bit useless; but that's no problem I had 10 months use I wouldn't otherwise have done.

[Dave B]

Here's a nifty little use for Android: a full HD media player with wi-fi and USB and SD slots, all built into a device the size of a memory stick, for £40.

UG802 Dual Core RK3066 Android 4.0 Mini PC Google TV Box Internet Wifi Player | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UG802-Dual-Core-RK3066-Android-4-0-Mini-PC-Google-TV-Box-Internet-Wifi-Player-/261096471082)

My main telly is connected to a PC running XBMC, but for this price it's worth a punt for the kitchen TV.

[Daniel]

That was true even when I were a lad. My Dad would say "Oh why not just wait as there will be something better out" - Well there will always be something better out soon; that's the nature of technology.

Having a good idea about product cycles does help however; to avoid buying an old product a week before the new one is released; but when making any purchase above a few hundred pounds you need to put in your research anyway, and in these days of that there internet, there's no excuse for not putting in the effort.

Another example - Last Christmas I bought a Blu-Ray player - partly because it had iPlayer, now about 10 months later I can get iPlayer on my Sky box thus rendering the Blu Ray a bit useless; but that's no problem I had 10 months use I wouldn't otherwise have done.

The issue people have with Apple is planned obsolescence. It's not like there aren't screens in the size of the Apple Mini with the same DPI as a retina screen, it's just that Apple have made a conscious decision to launch the Mini with a screen which has a lower DPI than the normal iPad so that in the future they can launch practically the same thing with a better screen and call it the iPad Mini 2. The iPad Mini 2, now more magical than the crappy one Mark has :p Or at least will have at Christmas :p

[Daniel]

That said there is something to be said for buying things more or less as soon as they come out. Your product will current for longer.

I built my PC from bits which had only been out for about a week or so. If I'd waited months I could have gotten said bits cheaper, but then you just end up having to use your old "slow" computer for longer and you own the product for a shorter time before it's superceded.

[Mark]

Yes, or you deliberately wait until the next device is out so the price of the old one will go down.

[Daniel]

Yes, or you deliberately wait until the next device is out so the price of the old one will go down.
Personally I feel that this is a losers game unless you're someone who doesn't ask very much of their hardware in terms of specs and features.

[Mark]

I want all the new things RIGHT NOW

[Daniel]

I want all the new things RIGHT NOW
Then unwrap your iPad Mini then :p

[Mark]

I haven't got it yet, doesn't arrive until the 15th.

[Daniel]

I haven't got it yet, doesn't arrive until the 15th.
It'll be outdated by then!

[Mark]

WTF, it's outdated now, dumbass.

[airshifter]

WTF, it's outdated now, dumbass.

Hey now... watch that language or we will have to report you to a moder.... ummmm.. never mind. :laugh:



It's amazing how many choices people have now for any device. Phone, tablet, pad, any size, any shape, any speed or capacity. And to me personally I still think if the end user is happy is all that matters. And it seems that other people are being more civil on the thread lately, so maybe everyone is realizing that what they think won't always affect the view of someone else.

They are just things, and we all want different things.

[Mark]

Except yours which are wrong !!

[Mark]

Sorry :(

[CaptainRaiden]

Made me lol. :p

http://buckleupbitch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/541216_395693907170416_237541758_n.jpg

[CaptainRaiden]

It's amazing how many choices people have now for any device. Phone, tablet, pad, any size, any shape, any speed or capacity. And to me personally I still think if the end user is happy is all that matters.

I think that has always been the case, be it electronics, clothes or automobiles. So, I don't see what's so new here?


And it seems that other people are being more civil on the thread lately, so maybe everyone is realizing that what they think won't always affect the view of someone else.

They are just things, and we all want different things.

Things have always been civil here as far as I can remember. And probably you're a bit late to the party. :D This thread started off as criticism of Apple, and over the last two years, has always been criticism and defending. That's the whole point of this thread.

Otherwise it'd be pretty much like this:

User 1: I just bought the new iPad micro!
User 2: That's so cool. I'm happy with your purchase.
User 1: Thank you so much, I appreciate that.
User 2: You're welcome. I too am gonna buy that.
User 1: Great! Then we can be iPad buddies!
User 3: Get a room.

Wouldn't be very interesting, I have to say.


Also, it seems only the Apple fans take criticism targeted towards Apple somehow personally. There has been plenty of criticisms directed towards Microsoft, Samsung, Android and Nokia here. I don't see users of those brands taking it personal and getting their panties in a bunch.

That's probably because Apple is mocked globally more than any other brand. And whether you admit it or not, it is damn funny. I have to say I couldn't watch the iPhone 5 ad keeping a straight face. ;)

[BleAivano]

Apple and HTC End Patent Dispute and Agree to Play Nice For a Decade (http://gizmodo.com/5959533/apple-and-htc-end-patent-dispute-and-agree-to-play-nice-for-a-decade)

So when will we see Samsung and apple doing a deal of this type?

[Malbec]

Also, it seems only the Apple fans take criticism targeted towards Apple somehow personally. There has been plenty of criticisms directed towards Microsoft, Samsung, Android and Nokia here. I don't see users of those brands taking it personal and getting their panties in a bunch.

Come on now CR, you do your best to mock Apple owners in a passive aggressive roundabout way then act surprised when they take it personally? Thats poor form from you.

BTW talking about waiting for the next product to come out instead of getting whats on the market now, rumours are that Sony have a superb phone coming out codenamed Odin. Must put up with the Sensation for a few months longer...

[CaptainRaiden]

Come on now CR, you do your best to mock Apple owners in a passive aggressive roundabout way then act surprised when they take it personally? Thats poor form from you.

Samsung and Android, I am a consumer of both, have been mocked throughout this thread and even a couple of pages ago regarding the lawsuit, their features, etc. by quite a few members here. I didn't throw a hissy fit around here, did I? Besides many of the work distraction/procrastination humor sites I visit in my breaks has Apple mocking photoshops in the ton, some of which are really funny and I share them here, I have also shared Microsoft and Samsung funny pics in the past. Believe it or not, I am not making those photoshops. Android users seem to enjoy the funny stuff. Apple fans should just ignore or post their own, who cares?

Besides it's a public forum, I'm not going to people's houses and pasting posters which say "Hey, your iPhone, it sucks." Apple's price point is my gripe, and as a future customer, I don't want to pay a fortune for a product I don't even want. I know criticism at this level is hardly gonna ruffle any feathers, but it's a start nonetheless.


BTW talking about waiting for the next product to come out instead of getting whats on the market now, rumours are that Sony have a superb phone coming out codenamed Odin. Must put up with the Sensation for a few months longer...

Isn't Odin rumored to have a 5 inch screen, exactly what you don't want, Malbec? Their second rumored phone/tablet thingy is even bigger at 6 inches.

[Malbec]

Besides it's a public forum, I'm not going to people's houses and pasting posters which say "Hey, your iPhone, it sucks." Apple's price point is my gripe, and as a future customer, I don't want to pay a fortune for a product I don't even want. I know criticism at this level is hardly gonna ruffle any feathers, but it's a start nonetheless.

Sure, describing your opinion on Apple products is fine but there's no need to refer to their purchasers as sheep or insinuate that people who buy them are stupid.


Isn't Odin rumored to have a 5 inch screen, exactly what you don't want, Malbec?

Yes something like that, in full HD too. A guy can change his mind can't he? ;)

[Malbec]

Apple and HTC End Patent Dispute and Agree to Play Nice For a Decade (http://gizmodo.com/5959533/apple-and-htc-end-patent-dispute-and-agree-to-play-nice-for-a-decade)

So when will we see Samsung and apple doing a deal of this type?

The deal between HTC and Apple isn't a truce, they just agreed to settle out of court with HTC paying Apple a patents fee per unit sold. In effect HTC have recognised they've used Apple patents without a licence and have agreed to pay for it. This is likely to hit HTC profitability considerably just at a time they don't need it.

[Malbec]

I think Apple will suddenly have a legitimate reason for charging so much for their devices in some consumers eyes. They can now blame it on Samsung over charging them!! haha :crazy:

Expect prices to rise again as this may harm Apple's profits but its ultimately going to harm the consumer. This is something Samsung has always been against, but companies have to adapt in a cut throat industry.

Samsung hits Apple where it hurts with processor price hike | News | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/samsung-hits-apple-where-it-hurts-with-processor-price-hike-1111853)

Bit short-termist IMO.

Samsung have just lost HTC as a components client as well as having Apple steadily decreasing their reliance on them. While it may earn them a quick buck companies will be less likely to want to rely on a company that can introduce a unique price hike for just one customer. Its a quick and easy way of sullying your own reputation, not clever.

[Dave B]

The deal between HTC and Apple isn't a truce, they just agreed to settle out of court with HTC paying Apple a patents fee per unit sold. In effect HTC have recognised they've used Apple patents without a licence and have agreed to pay for it. This is likely to hit HTC profitability considerably just at a time they don't need it.
Actually it seems that Apple came to a "truce" because they recognised they could well be on the losing side of a court case, with a possible ban on iThing sales in the USA in the run-up to Christmas:
U.S. judge: HTC patents likely valid in Apple suit | Apple - CNET News (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57509251-37/u.s-judge-htc-patents-likely-valid-in-apple-suit/)

Apple didn't get that rich by being stupid!

[Malbec]

Actually it seems that Apple came to a "truce" because they recognised they could well be on the losing side of a court case, with a possible ban on iThing sales in the USA in the run-up to Christmas:
U.S. judge: HTC patents likely valid in Apple suit | Apple - CNET News (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57509251-37/u.s-judge-htc-patents-likely-valid-in-apple-suit/)

Apple didn't get that rich by being stupid!

Sounds like an entirely separate legal case.

HTC wouldn't sign an agreement with Apple that is so crippling (a $20 dollar patent fee to Apple for a top of the line phone HTC probably sell for $200!) if they had the slightest whiff of victory, nor would they have signed it for global phone shipments if they stood to lose a case in US jurisdiction only.

[CaptainRaiden]

Sure, describing your opinion on Apple products is fine but there's no need to refer to their purchasers as sheep or insinuate that people who buy them are stupid.

I don't think I have ever referred to a single Apple user here as sheep. Others have, I haven't, you can check through and quote me on this. Insinuation of stupidity is done by the image makers, not me. Some inadvertent insinuation is unfortunately coincidental. :D

Like this picture of the iPhone 20 and the Galaxy S23

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/5410591_700b.jpg


Yes something like that, in full HD too. A guy can change his mind can't he? ;)

Sounds like a real powerhouse. I'd suggest investing in bigger pants. :p

[Daniel]

You did only 12 days ago.




And many times before not counting the Samsung thread that was closed. I couldn't resist quoting you sorry.

I think captain raiden is saying that he's not called anyone one this forum a sheep directly.

[CaptainRaiden]

I think captain raiden is saying that he's not called anyone one this forum a sheep directly.

^ This.

Good job on the quoting though Henners. That must have taken some time!

So, to make it clear for the nth time, and has Daniel has illuminated above, I didn't generalize against every Apple user, and specifically nobody on this forum.

The only ones I did call sheep are the ones that I know personally (not on this forum) with next to no tech knowledge. For example, a girl I know sold some of her old clothes, books, a Lumia 800 (a gift from her father) and other stuff just to buy an iPhone 4S just because everybody in her high school class had one.

[CaptainRaiden]

Oh boy, here we go again with the oversensitive melodrama. If you want to twist my words to feel like a victim of my terror, please go ahead. ;) I don't really care either way.

If my wife buys a Samsung phone just because two of her colleagues have it, without even having used the phone once, then yes, that would be sheepish.

If anybody buys any item just because the people they admire have it, without making an informed decision, then yes, they are sheep.

Comprende? No? Well, too bad then. :)

[CaptainRaiden]

In fact I know the iPhone 5 has an A6 chip and that's about as far as it goes.

That's already much more than any sheep I know. Welcome to the geek universe, henners. :p

[Mark]

A British designed CPU commissioned by a US company and made by a Korean company.

[race aficionado]

This thread is in a sad state . . . .

When's the next new phone or tablet coming up?

[CaptainRaiden]

A British designed CPU commissioned by a US company and made by a Korean company.

:eek:

[CaptainRaiden]

When's the next new phone or tablet coming up?

Google is your friend. ;)

[BleAivano]

This thread is in a sad state . . . .

When's the next new phone or tablet coming up?

here is a couple of HTC which releases should be imminent:

HTC Windows Phone 8X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_8X)
HTC Windows Phone 8S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_8S)
HTC J Butterfly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_J_Butterfly)

[CaptainRaiden]

All these petty lawsuits are a downer on what is an interesting and exciting smartphone and tablet market right now.

[Mark]

Totally, and if companies were given a bit more freedom to innovate, and if they want to - blatantly copy, then we'd see a much better marketplace.

[Asturacing Videos]

I bougth a chinesse mobile. I am happy with it

[Malbec]

Totally, and if companies were given a bit more freedom to innovate, and if they want to - blatantly copy, then we'd see a much better marketplace.

Are there any industries where blatant copying is allowed which has lead to innovation?

[Malbec]

It seems Apple will earn a tidy sum out of the deal yearly too. If HTC last the storm of course. This is only a projection from one analyst however.


Apple could earn hefty yearly sum thanks to HTC deal | News | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/news/computing/apple/apple-could-earn-hefty-yearly-sum-thanks-to-htc-deal-1111977)

Thats on top of patent licencing fees all android phone makers already pay to Microsoft. HTC isn't doing too well losing market share hand over fist over the past year. If my experience is anything to go by they haven't paid enough attention to customer experience. Also I got to play with the one X plus the other day. Great phone but it just feels like a bigger more powerful version of the Sensation I already have, which in turn felt the same compared to the Desire. They seem to be missing a big wow factor.

[donKey jote]

It might sound good as a consumer but as a designer I wouldn't want my hard work ripped off in a free for all.

:confused: :s ailor: :p

[Valve Bounce]

OK I am a very late contributor to this thread, but I lost my Motorola Razr phone (6 years old) last week and am now looking for a relatively inexpensive smart phone as replacement. The two I am looking at so far are the Nokia Asha 311 for $128 and the Samsung Galaxy Ace for $218.(both unlocked). I really don't need something that is the latest that cost heaps. I need an unlocked phone because I managed to get onto a very very cheap plan for $21 per month for two phones.

So,if anyone can provide any feedback, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Also, is the Nokia Lumia 610 any good at just over $200?

[SGWilko]

OK I am a very late contributor to this thread, but I lost my Motorola Razr phone (6 years old) last week and am now looking for a relatively inexpensive smart phone as replacement. The two I am looking at so far are the Nokia Asha 311 for $128 and the Samsung Galaxy Ace for $218.(both unlocked). I really don't need something that is the latest that cost heaps. I need an unlocked phone because I managed to get onto a very very cheap plan for $21 per month for two phones.

So,if anyone can provide any feedback, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Also, is the Nokia Lumia 610 any good at just over $200?

There was a feature on the UK MSN frontpage on the top 10 best value?? smartphones.

Possibly not much use to Antipodeans, but a bit of rooting around MSN's pages may bring something up?

In fact: Top smartphones to buy in 2012 - Top 10 smartphones to buy in 2012 - Mobile phone reviews | MSN Tech UK (http://tech.uk.msn.com/mobiles/top-10-smartphones-to-buy-in-2012)

HTH

[Big Ben]

Do we have any htc one x owners here?

[Big Ben]

I'm considering buying one but it would be nice to hear.. actually read.. the opinion of an owner.

[BleAivano]

Do we have any htc one x owners here?

not me but there was someone who had an HOX.

[Valve Bounce]

I am looking at the Samsung Ace, Nokia Lumia 610 and the Nokia Asha 311, as these three appear to be at the reasonable price range that I can afford. So if anyone can provide information on these, I'd be grateful.

[CaptainRaiden]

I am looking at the Samsung Ace, Nokia Lumia 610 and the Nokia Asha 311, as these three appear to be at the reasonable price range that I can afford. So if anyone can provide information on these, I'd be grateful.

Don't buy Asha, Valve, as it's got Nokia's proprietary OS and that's outdated now compared to newer options. However if it's a cheap, solid phone you're after, and not a smartphone with latest apps and stuff, then that's fine I guess.

Both Galaxy Ace and Lumia 610 are good for that price range, and both with more recent operating systems.

Just a suggestion, if your budget is around $200+ for a phone anyway, why not add a tad more and go for the LG Google Nexus 4?

Nexus 4 (http://www.google.com/nexus/4/)

Google's Nexus 4: Understanding your carrier options | Computerworld Blogs (http://blogs.computerworld.com/smartphones/21333/google-nexus-4-carrier-options)

Google Nexus 4 review | Phone Reviews | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/reviews/phones/mobile-phones/google-nexus-4-1108999/review)


That is if you can get your hands on it. Heard it sold out in under an hour in the UK and Australia - Google Nexus 4 sells out in less than an hour | News | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/google-nexus-4-sells-out-in-less-than-an-hour-1112108)

It's tremendous value for money, almost unreal for what it offers. One of the best hardware on any phone in the market right now, with the latest Android OS. And since it's part of the Google's official Nexus line, you'll be the first to get any new OS update. Food for thought.

[Valve Bounce]

Don't buy Asha, Valve, as it's got Nokia's proprietary OS and that's outdated now compared to newer options. However if it's a cheap, solid phone you're after, and not a smartphone with latest apps and stuff, then that's fine I guess.

Both Galaxy Ace and Lumia 610 are good for that price range, and both with more recent operating systems.

Just a suggestion, if your budget is around $200+ for a phone anyway, why not add a tad more and go for the LG Google Nexus 4?

Nexus 4 (http://www.google.com/nexus/4/)

Google's Nexus 4: Understanding your carrier options | Computerworld Blogs (http://blogs.computerworld.com/smartphones/21333/google-nexus-4-carrier-options)

Google Nexus 4 review | Phone Reviews | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/reviews/phones/mobile-phones/google-nexus-4-1108999/review)


That is if you can get your hands on it. Heard it sold out in under an hour in the UK and Australia - Google Nexus 4 sells out in less than an hour | News | TechRadar (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/google-nexus-4-sells-out-in-less-than-an-hour-1112108)

It's tremendous value for money, almost unreal for what it offers. One of the best hardware on any phone in the market right now, with the latest Android OS. And since it's part of the Google's official Nexus line, you'll be the first to get any new OS update. Food for thought.

How does this compare with the Google Nexus7? :nexus 7 - Search for nexus 7 - Google Nexus 7 (8GB) (http://www.kogan.com/au/shop/tablets-laptops/?brand=google&keywords=nexus%207&gclid=CLfd-JTy0LMCFQtZpQodhF0APg)

Is this the same thing?

Probably not :(

[CaptainRaiden]

How does this compare with the Google Nexus7? :nexus 7 - Search for nexus 7 - Google Nexus 7 (8GB) (http://www.kogan.com/au/shop/tablets-laptops/?brand=google&keywords=nexus%207&gclid=CLfd-JTy0LMCFQtZpQodhF0APg)

Is this the same thing?

Probably not :(

Google Nexus 7 is a 7 inch tablet.

Google Nexus 4 is a 4.5 inch smartphone.

:)

[CaptainRaiden]

Beat you to it Captain ;) :)

:mad:

Yeah, but you called it a mobile phone, when it is quite clearly a "Smart" phone. :cool:

When will you learn Watson...

:p

[Dave B]

The Nexus 4 is an incredible phone, and it's a wonder it's not more highly publicised. It's the equal of an iPhone in most respects, with a few minor drawbacks and advantages over the Apple, but it's damn near half the price.

[Malbec]

I had a string of HTC's and got bored with them to be honest. They served me well though even if HTC's customer service is amongst the worst I have experienced. I fancied a change and it was either going to be a Samsung or an iPhone. I went with the iPhone as most of my friends have them and iMessage is used mostly (free). I also liked the design of the iPhone 5 and love the interface whether others think its dated or not. I know you won't buy a Samsung but having played with the S3 I have to say its also a gorgeous phone. The Note 2 is lovely too, but absolutely massive so not really practical IMO. Are you still considering the Nokia's? The Lumia 920 looks nice in the demo although I'm not a fan of the tiled interface. There wasn't a lot of choice during my last upgrade at the beginning of 2011 and now there is too much! :)

I only have two words to say to that, Sony Odin.

Incidentally while HTC sales are dropping through the floor, Sony sales are stealthily climbing to the extent that they will be the third biggest smartphone maker this year after Samsung and Apple. Objectively HTC products IMO are slightly better than their Sony counterparts so it does tell you about the increasing disconnect between product quality and sales.

[Daniel]

OK I am a very late contributor to this thread, but I lost my Motorola Razr phone (6 years old) last week and am now looking for a relatively inexpensive smart phone as replacement. The two I am looking at so far are the Nokia Asha 311 for $128 and the Samsung Galaxy Ace for $218.(both unlocked). I really don't need something that is the latest that cost heaps. I need an unlocked phone because I managed to get onto a very very cheap plan for $21 per month for two phones.

So,if anyone can provide any feedback, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Also, is the Nokia Lumia 610 any good at just over $200?
Tbh I wouldn't go for a Lumia 610. It's the absolute bottom of the range Windows Phone. I love the OS, but wouldn't go bargain basement.

[Robinho]

Ben, I've got an HTC one x and I'm a big fan. I reckon it does pretty much everything a S3 will do, in a nicer package IMO. I prefer the HTC interface to Samsung's. The only downsides are the lack of removable memory, but its 32gb onboard and I've had no issues. The other is the battery life, which is less than sparkling. On light use it is fine, but some internet, app and music use and I get about 12hrs. That's fine for e as I use the USB cable at my desk at work which is when it gets most use. I gather there is an upgraded version of the phone now with a stronger battery and 4g. However I'm very happy and prefer this to friends s3's and iPhone 5's.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Valve Bounce]

Tbh I wouldn't go for a Lumia 610. It's the absolute bottom of the range Windows Phone. I love the OS, but wouldn't go bargain basement.

Hi Daniel,
I am not after a top end smart phone; basically I am after something for my wife and she wants a full screen keyboard, and I willprobably take over her 6 years old Nokia for awhile, which is very small but has no camera nor computer usage. That is why a Nokia Lumia, although it is bottom of the range, probably far exceeds her requirements as it has a 5 MP camera, and some computer usage.

The smart phones are controlled in price in the bottom to mid range stuff by pre-paid phones offered by Telstra. viz. their stuff is around $40 cheaper than the unlocked phones on the market.

If I do go for a better phone for myself next year, then the Google Nexus 4 sounds like a good deal.

[harsha]

xperia go , okay phone...would have loved a bit more of RAM tbh , but reliable phone , hardly ever crashes , the ICS updates by sony are really good and glitch free

[Valve Bounce]

xperia go , okay phone...would have loved a bit more of RAM tbh , but reliable phone , hardly ever crashes , the ICS updates by sony are really good and glitch free

Wait a minute!! I just found this: Sony XPERIA U SmartPhone Kumquat ST25i ST 25i - BLACK + FREE GIFT + FREE RETURN - Techrific Australia - (http://www.techrific.com.au/sony-xperia-u-smartphone-kumquat-st25i-st-25i-black-free-gift-free-return-postage-p-2999.html)

and this:Sony Xperia U 4GB (FREE INSURANCE + 1 YEAR AUSTRALIAN WARRANTY) Discounted Digital SLR Cameras, Discounted Unlocked Mobile Phones Online Store @ BecexTech Australia | We Bring You The Latest Technology (http://www.becextech.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1814)

where I can get the Xperia for $139 online here. Can somebody please comment on this. It looks good.

[Big Ben]

Ben, I've got an HTC one x and I'm a big fan. I reckon it does pretty much everything a S3 will do, in a nicer package IMO. I prefer the HTC interface to Samsung's. The only downsides are the lack of removable memory, but its 32gb onboard and I've had no issues. The other is the battery life, which is less than sparkling. On light use it is fine, but some internet, app and music use and I get about 12hrs. That's fine for e as I use the USB cable at my desk at work which is when it gets most use. I gather there is an upgraded version of the phone now with a stronger battery and 4g. However I'm very happy and prefer this to friends s3's and iPhone 5's.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for that.

How's the sound?

My carrier only sells the white version. I understand keeping it clean is a bit of an issue.

[BleAivano]

Ben, I've got an HTC one x and I'm a big fan. I reckon it does pretty much everything a S3 will do, in a nicer package IMO. I prefer the HTC interface to Samsung's. The only downsides are the lack of removable memory, but its 32gb onboard and I've had no issues. The other is the battery life, which is less than sparkling. On light use it is fine, but some internet, app and music use and I get about 12hrs. That's fine for e as I use the USB cable at my desk at work which is when it gets most use. I gather there is an upgraded version of the phone now with a stronger battery and 4g. However I'm very happy and prefer this to friends s3's and iPhone 5's.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


There is an uppgraded version of the HOX called HOX+ which have 64gb memory, larger battery and a few more "news" compared to the regular HOX.

[Daniel]

Keen On (http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/14/keen-on-steve-wozniak-why-woz-worries-microsoft-is-now-more-innovative-than-apple-tctv/) I like Wozniak and he brings up some great points about Apple and Microsoft.

[Valve Bounce]

OK! I am totally confused. If I just type Nokia Lumia 710 on Google search, Ican get the price right down to $134 here:Nokia Lumia 710 3G Windows Smart Phone - Black Pink + FREE GIFT + FREE RETURN PO - Techrific Australia - (http://www.techrific.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=3915&cPath=115#myshopping&utm_source=myshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Mobile+Phones&utm_term=Nokia+Lumia+710+3G+Windows+Smart+Phone+Bl ack+Pink+FREE+GIFT)


Now this sounds like a bloody terrific deal. Can someone please comment on this.

......and the Nexus 4 was completely sold out within minutes all over the world. This must be one helluva mobile phone. OK! I'll wait till next month and see what happens on the Nexus 4.

[Mark]

There are a lot of scammers out there. Especially with mobile phone sales. So be careful.

[BleAivano]

@ Valve B, take a look at this:
techrific.com.au | WOT Reputation Scorecard | WOT (Web of Trust) (http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/techrific.com.au)
Techrific Australia Reviewed By Australians - www.techrific.com.au (http://www.productreview.com.au/p/techrific-australia.html)

[Dave B]

Tangent time: I enabled Google Now a couple of weeks ago and thought it was utterly useless. However, now that it's got to know me I can't decide if it's slightly creepy or just plain brilliant. It's like having a slightly ropey psychic* in your pocket, who offers directions and travel information before I set off, and tells me about places as I arrive at them. It needs a lot of refining but it's shaping up to be incredibly useful.

*All psychics are ropey, it's clearly balderdash, but you get the point!