Mobile phones & tablets thread [Archive] - Page 3

Jag_Warrior

10th January 2011, 00:35

I have been pondering buying an iPad as a gift for a little while now. Seeing as Apple usually have around a 1 year life cycle before they release a new model I've done a little googling and the rumours are that the iPad 2 is due to be unveiled in the next couple of weeks with a release date in April. This timescale seems to tie in with Apple announcing and launching the iPad last year.

Anyone have any thoughts on the IPad 2?

I was all set to get my MacMafia girl an iPad for Christmas. But then the rumors started to come out that the iPad2 would have front & rear cameras - she and her sister have become FaceTime junkies... and pulled me and my lil iPod Touch in with them. So I decided to wait for the release of the new one - and was forced to do what I never do: buy a girlfriend jewelry for Christmas (that usually starts the Armageddon clock a ticking :( ).

But most of the rumor sites have put lighter, faster, dual cameras and possibly a USB port as very likely. I have my doubts about the carbon fiber case, but we'll see. And there will most likely be an unexpected feature or two that will "Wow!" the crowd, and at the same time, keep the competition behind the 8 ball. Until RIM can get their battery life issue figured out on the Playbook and Android can prove itself on a tablet form factor, I figure the iPad remains about the only game in town. But the others will eventually get it right... and then Apple will move the bar again on them.

So yeah, I'll wait to get gal-pal an iPad2, and there's a MacBook Pro in my immediate future (loaded with Windows as a secondary OS).

race aficionado

10th January 2011, 02:38

So yeah, I'll wait to get gal-pal an iPad2, and there's a MacBook Pro in my immediate future (loaded with Windows as a secondary OS).

Life is good then . . . .
:s mokin:

Jag_Warrior

10th January 2011, 04:37

Life is good then . . . .
:s mokin:

Assuming the iPad2 lands in time for her birthday, hopefully! If not, then I'm going to have to get really creative so that I can stay away from the jewelry store. I need the boys & girls at Apple to be good elves, work some overtime and not let me down on this one.

Mark

10th January 2011, 09:03

At minimum I would expect it to have the same features that are present in the iPhone 4, forward facing camera (maybe not rear facing, but who knows!), improved GPS and the same dots per square inch as the iPhone, as the present iPad has only very slightly more res than the iPhone, despite a far bigger screen.

AndySpeed

10th January 2011, 09:42

With phones as they are these days, what need is there to buy a new phone or upgrade from your existing one (unless it breaks)? Surely you're just fanning the flames of consumer capitalism and disposable technologies...

Sorry to put a damper on the thread ;)

Mark

10th January 2011, 09:48

With phones as they are these days, what need is there to buy a new phone or upgrade from your existing one (unless it breaks)?

It depends if the new version has a technology or way of doing things you find better than your current model.

Surely you're just fanning the flames of consumer capitalism and disposable technologies...

You say it like it's a bad thing? :p

AndySpeed

10th January 2011, 10:27

If it's genuinely better and will help you out then I can't criticise that - after all, I have just bought a new camera body to replace my old one just because it's better.

It just seems some people buy and replace just because the marketing material tells them to. Honestly, hand-on-heart, I refuse to change my Sony Ericsson C905 until it breaks or the battery goes dead. When it does I shall rever to my even older K800i until that breaks. Unless in the meantime I get a job that requires me to read emails in the field...

I hope you understand my point - so many people upgrade their phone just to keep up with the trends created by marketing (or, perhaps, to make themselves appear more like those busy professionals checking their email on their phone every 5 minutes, wishing they were themselves in such a good job....).

Dave B

10th January 2011, 10:41

Anyone have any thoughts on the IPad 2?
There'll be so many Android and Windows tablets on the market in the next few months that the iPad2 will almost certainly be an overpriced underspecced waste of time. Apple need to pull something spectacular out of the bag, not merely adding features that should have been on the original iPad (camera, decent screen resolution, better connectivity etc).

Plus I'm not convinced that a 10" screen is the way to go. Once you get to that size you might as well buy a netbook for half the price which does twice as much. 7" seems to be becoming a far more popular screen size, and far more transportable. I suspect that for all Jobs' posturing over screen size, Apple will release a 7" nano-iPad before the end of the year.

Daniel

10th January 2011, 21:17

Plus I'm not convinced that a 10" screen is the way to go. Once you get to that size you might as well buy a netbook for half the price which does twice as much. 7" seems to be becoming a far more popular screen size, and far more transportable. I suspect that for all Jobs' posturing over screen size, Apple will release a 7" nano-iPad before the end of the year.

and it'll be a triumph and it'll be magical and so on and so forth.

race aficionado

10th January 2011, 23:51

and it'll be a triumph and it'll be magical and so on and so forth.

that goes for everything . . . if it's good, why not?

I like it when I see that the competition is out there doing it's thing and participating in bringing up the bar. I am even glad that Windows latest venture has been so far a success - it was getting embarrassing, specially coming from a company that had a successful track record many years ago.

As for Steve Jobs and his team, I am one that is in awe with what they have accomplished and look forward to their latest products *and this includes not only their iPhones, iPads, iPods but also their video editing and graphic products.

I am a MAC man, coocookachoooo!!!!
:)

rah

11th January 2011, 05:47

There'll be so many Android and Windows tablets on the market in the next few months that the iPad2 will almost certainly be an overpriced underspecced waste of time. Apple need to pull something spectacular out of the bag, not merely adding features that should have been on the original iPad (camera, decent screen resolution, better connectivity etc).

Plus I'm not convinced that a 10" screen is the way to go. Once you get to that size you might as well buy a netbook for half the price which does twice as much. 7" seems to be becoming a far more popular screen size, and far more transportable. I suspect that for all Jobs' posturing over screen size, Apple will release a 7" nano-iPad before the end of the year.

Some great offerings at CES this year http://dvice.com/archives/2011/01/tablets-youll-a.php

Daniel

11th January 2011, 23:19

Some great offerings at CES this year http://dvice.com/archives/2011/01/tablets-youll-a.php

Not just tablets either :D Intel has debuted their Sandy Bridge line of CPU's, one of which is sitting in MY PC at this very moment :D

rah

12th January 2011, 03:31

Not just tablets either :D Intel has debuted their Sandy Bridge line of CPU's, one of which is sitting in MY PC at this very moment :D

Really?? That was quick! I only saw them anounced the other day, they look nice. Nothing slows my 4 year old pc down like RAW and other image file processing. It will definately be in my next PC hopefully this year.

Jag_Warrior

18th January 2011, 20:31

that goes for everything . . . if it's good, why not?

I like it when I see that the competition is out there doing it's thing and participating in bringing up the bar. I am even glad that Windows latest venture has been so far a success - it was getting embarrassing, specially coming from a company that had a successful track record many years ago.

As for Steve Jobs and his team, I am one that is in awe with what they have accomplished and look forward to their latest products *and this includes not only their iPhones, iPads, iPods but also their video editing and graphic products.

I am a MAC man, coocookachoooo!!!!
:)

With his latest leave of absence, I have a feeling that Steve Jobs' reign at Apple will mostly be ceremonial going forward... if that. Tim Cook (COO) has apparently been running the day-to-day for some time. But even as capable as Cook is, it will be hard to replace the greatest turn-around artist in corporate history (bar none).

As for those who keep saying the iPad will soon be an afterthought, that sounds like nothing more than wishful thinking to me. Not a single (reputable) analyst sees that. Certainly not by the end of the year. I think Android, and maybe the RIM OS, will eventually gain significant share in the tablet market. But as long as the pie keeps getting bigger, and as long as Apple remains ONE of the dominant players... who cares (from a shareholder standpoint, I mean)?

Daniel

18th January 2011, 22:52

Really?? That was quick! I only saw them anounced the other day, they look nice. Nothing slows my 4 year old pc down like RAW and other image file processing. It will definately be in my next PC hopefully this year.

By that time we'll probably be onto Ivy Bridge :) I'd wait for that for sure :)

rah

19th January 2011, 01:38

Just had a read about it, looks good. I guess I will have to stick with the old pc for now. Still looking at a netbook / tablet in the next few months, for tafe.

Daniel

19th January 2011, 08:08

With his latest leave of absence, I have a feeling that Steve Jobs' reign at Apple will mostly be ceremonial going forward... if that. Tim Cook (COO) has apparently been running the day-to-day for some time. But even as capable as Cook is, it will be hard to replace the greatest turn-around artist in corporate history (bar none).

As for those who keep saying the iPad will soon be an afterthought, that sounds like nothing more than wishful thinking to me. Not a single (reputable) analyst sees that. Certainly not by the end of the year. I think Android, and maybe the RIM OS, will eventually gain significant share in the tablet market. But as long as the pie keeps getting bigger, and as long as Apple remains ONE of the dominant players... who cares (from a shareholder standpoint, I mean)?

I think it's naive to think that Apple will continue on nearly as strong without their snake oil salesman at the helm. No one else can sell you a phone with an antenna that's fundamentally flawed in its design and come out smelling like roses.

I still think that tablets as a whole are just a fad, not just the iPad. How long that fad lasts is anybody's guess. If you can do something quicker on a tablet then I think that this says that either your computer is slow or you're just not that quick with a keyboard and mouse.

Jag_Warrior

19th January 2011, 19:04

I do agree that Jobs' absence COULD make a (negative) difference in Apple's strategy over the longer term. He is a visionary like Silicon Valley (or the business world) hasn't seen before. Tim Cook is apparently a supply chain genius. He's the one who has been making the trains run on time for the past several years. But no one yet knows how effective he and the others will be at picking the right product at the right time. In the sort term (2-4 years), most analysts believe that Apple has it covered, with or without Jobs at the helm. And at only 17 times earnings, it's not as if they're a Facebook or some vaporware company. For the time being, I'm leaving my chips on the table. If you go back and look at where the stock was when this thread was started, and compare it to where it is now, you'll see why I say that it's often wishful thinking that Apple won't deliver. I believe the phrase "kicking @ss and taking names" is appropriate. And BTW, it's actually quite funny to go back and read many/most of the posts on the first few pages of this thread now. Not to pat myself on the back or anything... but ya know *pat pat pat* :D

As for tablets, Bloomberg reported yesterday that the tablet market is poised to triple, from 17.1 million units in 2010 to 57.6 million units by 2014. That's what I was referring to when I spoke of making the pie bigger, even if their share is somewhat less than it is now. I think tablets were a fad. But now they're big business. And as they evolve from where they are now, I see no reason why that won't continue. Most people who buy tablets don't use them as their primary computing device, I would say. So they probably have access to either a desktop and/or a laptop. But tablets are far more convenient (and portable) than a desktop, and they're much lighter than a laptop (and cooler on the lap). As of right now, I personally don't have a need for a tablet. The iPod Touch perfectly fits my needs when I'm not by my computers. But if/when I can justify one, or want a bigger form factor (my eyes, they no so good no more), I'll get one too. I'll keep my desktops, laptops and iPod Touch as well - just like the millions who are gobbling them up right now.

race aficionado

2nd March 2011, 20:06

OK
So the new iPad is out.

Any comments?
:s mokin:

ioan

2nd March 2011, 23:14

OK
So the new iPad is out.

Any comments?
:s mokin:

Is it possible to do some really productive work on it?
If not I do not see it's usefulness, especially given it's price.

race aficionado

3rd March 2011, 00:45

Is it possible to do some really productive work on it?
If not I do not see it's usefulness, especially given it's price.

I don't know ioan.
I will eventually buy one (next generation probably) because right now the tax man has taken all of my money.

Let's see who gets a hands-on try at it and give us a report.

:s mokin:

Roamy

3rd March 2011, 04:39

we will see if it runs iwork 11

Valve Bounce

3rd March 2011, 06:29

I don't know ioan.
I will eventually buy one (next generation probably) because right now the tax man has taken all of my money.

Let's see who gets a hands-on try at it and give us a report.

:s mokin:
Well, I bought one o the android2.2 tablets in HK for US$220. It is light and I have been sending emails and accessing the Ski Japan forum as well as here. But if I were to spend more, I would go for the Acer Ferrari netbook which I can buy for under $700 at Costco. No way would I pay nearly $900 for Apple's Ipad. My Iped has a flash player. With an Ipad you either pay for apps or hijack them.

Dave B

3rd March 2011, 08:45

OK
So the new iPad is out.

Any comments?
:s mokin:
Woooooooooooo. :s nore:

Let's look at The Telegraph's initial review (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8358734/The-faster-lighter-iPad-2.html):

[The new iPad] has two cameras built into the rear and front of the device, both of which take photos and shoot video
Finally. The first version should have had at least a front-facing for conferencing.

The new device comes preloaded with a new app called Photo Booth, which allows people to take distorted photos of themselves and share them with friends
Oh how I laughed... five years ago when I saw this on a Sony Ericsson.

And users will also be able to use the iPad 2 to video call friends who have either an iPad 2, an iPhone 4 or the latest iPod Touch, using Apple Facetime
Oh, so forget conferencing then unless your colleagues are on suitable hardware.

The iPad 2 is one third thinner than the first device and is slightly lighter
Fair enough.

It will also be available in white for the first time, as well as the standard black.
Big wow :\

Jobs said that Apple has installed a new chip inside the iPad 2 which makes the device run up to two times faster than the original iPad. The new chip also allows graphics to load up to nine times faster than the first device.
At last, something worth shouting about. But given that the vast majority of users simply surf the web or play simple games, is that really such a big deal?

The technology company has also developed a new “smart” case for the iPad 2 which, as well as protecting the large screen, doubles as a stand so people can watch movies with greater ease. The new case hooks on to the hinges of the iPad 2 and folds up into a stand. Users will have to purchase the case separately.
That's not a feature, it's an optional kickstand and an admission that tablets are not ideal for watching media for more than a few minutes at a time.

So still no SD card, still no USB, still no HDMI**, still not even widescreen let alone HD, still shackled to iTunes, and still no 7" version.

(**edit: you can buy a $39 adaptor for HDMI output, which is a messy solution)

If you want a full-fat tablet, get a Xoom. If you just want a bit of browsing on the move, do what Valve did and get a Chinese no-name for a third of the price.

Mark

3rd March 2011, 08:47

Nice summary :D

I still see it as a very niche product. If you want a multifunction device that's nice and small, get a smart phone. If you want to do more get a laptop.

I can see the point in it in some circumstances if you want a big screen but you don't want the weight of a laptop, but with all Apple devices, the lack of Flash is still a big problem. I know from browsing in 64-bit Linux which flash has a problem with, the sheer number of websites which assume you have flash installed and just won't work without it.

Valve Bounce

3rd March 2011, 09:52

Mark

3rd March 2011, 10:49

Nothing? Everything? I have no idea...

Anyway the real achievement here is that again Apple have released a product and it's headline news around the world, even gets a mention on Radio 1 this morning in the news. Yet another manufacturer comes up with the same - or arguably better, product, and they might be lucky to get a passing reference on Click or The Gadget Show at most.

Valve Bounce

3rd March 2011, 11:19

Apple has a superb sales team. Dell is the lousiest I have ever encountered. Dell used to have a small counter at Chadstone Mall. I was considering upgrading at the time, sowalked up to the Dell stall. The guy was fiddling with the PC and ignored me. When I interupted him toask about the PC he looked dismissive. So I wanted a demonstration and asked if he had internet, and he rudely pointed behind and said "internet over there". Apple upstairs was exact opposite, showing me how to open the browser and encouraged me to surf the net. With that friendly attitude,Apple cannot fail. I nearly upgraded to Apple myself, but the price beat me.

Dave B

3rd March 2011, 11:25

It's in Apple's DNA that technology alone is not enough," [Jobs] told the crowd. "It's technology married with the liberal arts, married with the humanities that yields the results that make our hearts sing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/rorycellanjones/2011/03/ipad_2_the_return_of_steve.html

Sheen and Gaddafi have competition for the most ridiculous quote of the year. :p

ioan

3rd March 2011, 11:42

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/rorycellanjones/2011/03/ipad_2_the_return_of_steve.html

Sheen and Gaddafi have competition for the most ridiculous quote of the year. :p

:rotflmao: :up:

Worst part yet is that all of them have followers!

Jag_Warrior

5th March 2011, 20:31

Is it possible to do some really productive work on it?
If not I do not see it's usefulness, especially given it's price.

Like any computing device, it depends on what industry or sector your productive work applies to. My girl works with children who have special needs/learning disabilities. She said they're piloting iPads in the school system where she works. Especially in kids with autism, apparently these types of devices (not just iPads) help them relate to their surroundings better. iPads have also been piloted or deployed in about 80% of Fortune 500 companies thus far. From what I've read, the iPad has seen the highest (non-consumer) adoption rates in education, financial services/sales and health care.

If you're doing heavy CAD/CAM, spreadsheet, graphics or dedicated stock, futures or options trading, I'd say an iPad (or any other relatively small screen device) would be too limiting. Although there are productivity apps made by AutoCAD, the CBOE, most banks and financial institutions, as well as graphics companies, the iPad isn't yet powerful or versatile enough to be a desktop or laptop replacement. Tablets function more as mobile, complimentary devices to full systems right now.

I don't need or want an iPad for myself right now. The new MacBook Pro better fits my needs, so that's what I'm looking forward to getting soon. But I'd planned to buy my girl an iPad last year - now I'm glad I waited. The iPad2, with the additional features, should fit the bill very well for her. And if I get as many "good boyfriend points" as I hope to, hopefully we'll be stopping by the Victoria's Secret shop... so that I'll also have a "present" to unwrap after she unwraps her
new iPad. :)

But the iPad started life as (primarily) a consumer device, that is rapidly finding a place in the business world. With the release of Gingerbread/3.0(?), the Android makers now have an OS that is suited for the larger form factor of a tablet. But (IMO) too many of them rushed to get products to market that were not ready for prime time. And that's hurt them on the business adoption side. No doubt, Android and the new RIM device will come on strong - maybe HP too. But for the next couple of years, the tablet market should belong to Apple.

Mark

7th March 2011, 18:19

Well now we have the iPad too we can look forward to the iPhone 5! Which I don't intend on buying but it should bring a new OS with it.

GridGirl

7th March 2011, 20:00

...but I haven't noticed any changes from last weeks software update yet.

Mark

8th March 2011, 08:01

That's 4.2? I think 4.3 is out at the end of this week. Agreed, the chages are minor at best!

Daniel

8th March 2011, 13:57

I think tablets are going to eventually die the same death that netbooks have died from. Its not that they're not well designed, its just that the form factor is fundamentally wrong. They don't do anything better than a phone and a pc/laptop.

we used to laugh at people who used to bring tablets in for repair 5-6 years ago because other than for someone who is always out and about and doesn't have somewhere to sit, the tablet is not as functional as a laptop, nor is it as portable as a touchscreen phone.

Mark

8th March 2011, 14:00

we used to laugh at people who used to bring tablets in for repair 5-6 years ago because other than for someone who is always out and about and doesn't have somewhere to sit, the tablet is not as functional as a laptop, nor is it as portable as a touchscreen phone.

It's hard to think of a usecase where I tablet is going to be more useful than a laptop on a long term basis. Apart from just the 'sitting on the sofa' one.
If you're travelling a lot then you'd really want a smartphone instead, if you're on the train then there is always a surface to put a small laptop on, as there are in most other cases where you'd want something bigger than a smartphone.

I'd be interested to hear from people who actually have tablets as to where and when they use them.

Mark

8th March 2011, 14:04

Turns out Microsoft paid Nokia $1 billion in order to take it's OS
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/08/nokia_microsoft_deal/

Nokia will pay Microsoft back each time it sells a phone with their OS in it, but it looks like a good deal for Nokia!

Daniel

8th March 2011, 21:01

Those are rumours Mark, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true

Mark

9th March 2011, 08:00

I'm surprised really both were in a big hole with their respective products, but probably Nokia was in the biggest one of all. After all MS could afford for it's phone product to not really take off, but Nokia, well that's all they do!

race aficionado

9th March 2011, 13:54

Well now we have the iPad too we can look forward to the iPhone 5! Which I don't intend on buying but it should bring a new OS with it.
Hey Mark! :)

You and I are on a different iPhone purchase cycle.
I didn't purchase the model you have waiting for the next one.
I have the previous model and it's been good for me.
The only bummer right now is the battery has gotten very week.- I have to charge the phone every day. Someone told me it was because I probably got it wet - and also your model came with a longer lasting battery.
I'm looking forward to this summer's iPhone launch and in the meantime my iPhone is dong its job.
:s mokin:

Dave B

9th March 2011, 14:07

The only bummer right now is the battery has gotten very week
If and when the battery on my HTC starts to degrade, I can buy another for ~£20 (less if I want a Chinese knock-off) and fit it myself in less than a minute. I understand you can't do that on an iPhone :crazy:

GridGirl

9th March 2011, 14:31

I suppose it depends on how old the phone is and your own tendancy to keep to up with new technology. My iphone is over 2 years old now but is still going strong. I did think I'd broken it last year but it just turned out that I'd broken all my chargers at the same time. :s If the battery were to go weak (and under the assumption that I could replace the battery) I would still be more likely to just get a new phone rather than start replacing bits even if it doesn't cost that much. :)

Dave B

14th March 2011, 11:50

I see the alarm clock problem has reared its ugly head yet again:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8380346/Apple-iPhone-4-alarm-clock-bug-strikes-agains.html

Mark

14th March 2011, 12:02

Which is why I have a cheap wristwatch which I use as my alarm, goes off every morning without fail and isn't dependent on the whims of my phone deciding not to work or not charge or whatever. And that's something I apply to all phones I've had, not just my iPhone.

Daniel

14th March 2011, 14:29

I see the alarm clock problem has reared its ugly head yet again:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8380346/Apple-iPhone-4-alarm-clock-bug-strikes-agains.html

That basic issues like this and the antenna issues is allowed to happen by Apple is hilarious.....

Daniel

14th March 2011, 14:31

If and when the battery on my HTC starts to degrade, I can buy another for ~£20 (less if I want a Chinese knock-off) and fit it myself in less than a minute. I understand you can't do that on an iPhone :crazy:

My Samsung Omnia 7 also has this functionality, it's magical :p

MrJan

14th March 2011, 15:45

I really do enjoy the endless smuggery from Dave and Daniel when it comes to Apple :rolleyes:

Daniel

14th March 2011, 16:03

I really do enjoy the endless smuggery from Dave and Daniel when it comes to Apple :rolleyes:

So you like technology which can't do basic things? :rolleyes:

You seem the sort of person that buys something because loads of people don't like it.....

donKey jote

14th March 2011, 16:12

you mean a Linux person? :eek: :eek: :p

Daniel

14th March 2011, 16:16

you mean a Linux person? :eek: :eek: :p

No, Linux is actually useful for servers. Every Mac device could disappear today and the world would still tick over, could you say the same about Windows or Linux?

MrJan

14th March 2011, 16:21

So you like technology which can't do basic things? :rolleyes:

You seem the sort of person that buys something because loads of people don't like it.....

Not really, I buy something because I like it. I then don't bother taking delight in all the problems that the competitor has had (even though I don't actually use one).

And what basic things do you think that my iPhone should do that it apparently doesn't? Please don't tell me it's just the alarm clock, because that would be ridiculous.

donKey jote

14th March 2011, 16:37

No, Linux is actually useful for servers.
and for my TomTom, but that's not why I bought it :p

Mark

14th March 2011, 17:04

I got an iPhone because what it does, it does well. Unlike my Nokia.

Retro Formula 1

14th March 2011, 17:23

Mark

14th March 2011, 17:31

Next year, as in 2012? Too far off to think about really, the landscape could have changed considerably by then.

race aficionado

14th March 2011, 19:15

I got an iPhone because what it does, it does well. Unlike my Nokia.

I got an iPhone to piss off Daniel. :p

OK . . . I really got it because I wanted to -
and I hope that all phone owners out there, regardless of the brand they are using,
are getting their bang for their buck.
I sure am.

:s mokin:

Daniel

14th March 2011, 20:05

Not really, I buy something because I like it. I then don't bother taking delight in all the problems that the competitor has had (even though I don't actually use one).

And what basic things do you think that my iPhone should do that it apparently doesn't? Please don't tell me it's just the alarm clock, because that would be ridiculous.

Well fine then, but what is your issue with Dave and myself? Are we not allowed an opinion? Have you got the hots for us or something? I can assure you that we're both very much taken if that's the case.

Saying that a phone shouldn't have to do basic things like having a working alarm clock or being able to have a reliable signal is like saying that a car is a good car even if it won't move under it's own power sometimes.

I can understand why some people buy iPhones, Mark for instance had a really rubbish Nokia that a lot of people aren't/weren't happy with so he bought something better, but that doesn't mean that people like Dave and myself aren't allowed to highlight the flaws in the phone that Mark bought and vice versa. Comprende?

MrJan

14th March 2011, 20:23

You're welcome to an opinion and everyone knows your opinion on this subject, yet every time a problem occurs with the iPhone we're treated to a gleeful post and a link from either you or Dave. I haven't had any problems with my phone, in fact the only reason I know of any problems is down to links that you two post on here. I used the alarm clock the other day and it worked okay. I used the calculator today and it calculated accurately. I used the iPod this evening and it was fantastic, yet apparently I've got a terrible phone. Admittedly I don't use any of these features that often, but for me the attraction of a smartphone is internet access, a handful of apps and the fact that I have these features to hand if needed. In truth though I would far rather use something specifically designed for a task, so I've got an alarm clock to wake me up, a calculator to calculate **** and an MP3 player for music (all of which I owned before).

I also understand perfectly that you want to highlight flaws and point out better phones, but what's the need for Dave to post another thing about the alarm clock? We all already know that it's been a flaw. And you can't tell me that writing that **** about the battery was anything other than you being smug.

Daniel

14th March 2011, 20:24

I am looking to change me phone next year and for the first time, I will go for a smart phone.

My friends have Blackberry's, HTC's, Nokia's etc but from what I have seen, the easiest to use, quickest and most suited to what I need is the iPhone.

I have had an iPod Classic Video since about 2005/6 and the Battery is fine and never had a problem with it. This has convinced me that the build quality is superb as it has stood up better than just about every other small portable electronic device I have had.

I would quite like an iPad but think the phone would be first :)

If you're looking to buy in 2012 I would consider a Windows Phone 7 Nokia. Whilst Symbian has been the downfall of most Nokia phones for a couple of years now, the hardware and build quality are generally very very good. As Mark says a lot of things will have changed by then and I imagine the new iOS will have things from WinPho7 like live tiles and the like. I honestly think that you could buy an Android, Apple, Windows Phone 7 or Blackberry phone and you'll probably get a very good and very functional phone these days, but with the iPhone for instance you will pay a lot more for it. I'll happily pay extra for something which is good, but IMHO the iPhone just doesn't justify it.

The build quality of Apple stuff is generally good, but the problem with Apple stuff is that it's not meant to be taken apart and repaired and I just don't like that as it's not very environmentally friendly. I had a Nokia 3230 back in Australia which I dropped and broke the screen, looked in a catalogue of spares we had at work, bought a screen for £10 or so and repaired it myself. The flexi cable on my N95 which ran between the two slider bits went faulty and I took the phone apart and replaced the faulty part with one I bought on eBay for a few pounds. I know most people here probably won't have the inclination to fix their own electrical items but at least you could take a Nokia or a Samsung or whatever to a repair place and have them fix it for you, with an Apple phone you can pretty much only take it to Apple and in most cases they will provide you with an exchange unit because more likely than not they will have to destroy the casing to get inside the phone or iPad or iPhone or whatever. That might seem like a small matter to some people but has anyone looked into the amount of e-waste that we have in the UK and how much of it we send to other third world countries purely because we don't know what to do with it? I for one try as hard as I can to not add to that!

I understand if people don't agree, but it's laughable that someone on here is bleating about my opinion, should I bleat back my opinion of his opinion of my opinion? :p

Daniel

14th March 2011, 20:25

MrJan

14th March 2011, 20:29

Daniel

14th March 2011, 20:38

You strike me as the type. TBH I'm just trying to say that you come across as a smug twat, but didn't really want to be too offensive about it. Never mind though.

I wasn't 'bleating about your opinion', just the way that you express it.....repeatedly.....and again.......and yet again.....and then some more.

Petty insults aside....... the reason why Apple come up for a lot of criticism is because of how they market their products. They're magical, they're flawless, revolutionary and everything else is crap. This besides the fact that some products have well documented flaws, shortcomings and quite a few features which Apple presents as if they're new and they've been thought up by Apple have been done years ago by other manufacturers in other products. If you can't comprehend just why this might make bad news about Apple worthy of pointing and laughing then there's little hope for you.

Very few people would be willing to come out and say that all products that Apple make are crap, this simply isn't the case, but when you pretend that your stuff is flawless and it fails, you're going to get laughed at! When you pretend that your product has features never seen before and it doesn't, then you're going to get laughed at! When your PHONE has issues with signal strength because of the way people hold it then you're going to get laughed at!

You could highlight fiasco's like the RROD with the Xbox 360 but Microsoft never came out and made claims that the 360 was magical and flawless and so on. That they came out, admitted a problem and gave each console am extended warranty for the issue is something that Apple would never do and that's why i'd rather buy a flawed Microsoft product for half the price of a magical Apple one.

GridGirl

14th March 2011, 21:11

Did I have sex with some pet of yours because you're really wound up about this.....

You strike me as the type. TBH I'm just trying to say that you come across as a smug twat, but didn't really want to be too offensive about it. Never mind though.

I wasn't 'bleating about your opinion', just the way that you express it.....repeatedly.....and again.......and yet again.....and then some more.

That was probably the most funniest thing I've read on this forum for a while. :laugh:

I'm sorry Daniel, but I do tend to agree with Barryfullalove's train of thought. It's only really Steve Jobs that believes that all Apple products are the greatest things on earth since sliced bread. No one on this forum seem's to have that opinion and I very much doubt that many Apple product owners do either. I would hope that most consumers can see through the fan fare and hype before they decide whether they want to buy an Apple product or not. Granted, theres a lot of hype and fanfare and and quite frankly its every marketing managers dream but at the end of the day I dont think all that many people buy into it.

Daniel

14th March 2011, 21:25

That was probably the most funniest thing I've read on this forum for a while. :laugh:

I'm sorry Daniel, but I do tend to agree with Barryfullalove's train of thought. It's only really Steve Jobs that believes that all Apple products are the greatest things on earth since sliced bread. No one on this forum seem's to have that opinion and I very much doubt that many Apple product owners do either. I would hope that most consumers can see through the fan fare and hype before they decide whether they want to buy an Apple product or not. Granted, theres a lot of hype and fanfare and and quite frankly its every marketing managers dream but at the end of the day I dont think all that many people buy into it.

If people didn't buy into it then they wouldn't do it ;) I take it you've never seen a video of an Apple product launch if you don't think that people buy into it all with a sort of religious fanaticism.

Barry was just being a knuckledragger so I'm not quite sure why you feel the need to side with him ;)

GridGirl

14th March 2011, 21:40

If people didn't buy into it then they wouldn't do it ;) I take it you've never seen a video of an Apple product launch if you don't think that people buy into it all with a sort of religious fanaticism.

Barry was just being a knuckledragger so I'm not quite sure why you feel the need to side with him ;)

Fanfare and marketing can influence anyone into buying any product. Apple just happen to be quite good at marketing their products. It still doesn't mean their products are the best on the market. In some cases they could be but then again who cares. People are free to spend their money on whatever they want after doing whatever research they want. Apple's fanfare and hype doesn't force anyone into buying an Apple product.

I'm not the kind of person that would watch any product lauch let alone bother watching an Apple one. I have seen clips on the news about Apple launches but I'd always kinda assumed they either bussed in the fanatics from Nerdville or paid them. :p

MrJan

14th March 2011, 21:42

Daniel

14th March 2011, 21:45

Fanfare and marketing can influence anyone into buying any product. Apple just happen to be quite good at marketing their products. It still doesn't mean their products are the best on the market. In some cases they could be but then again who cares. People are free to spend their money on whatever they want after doing whatever research they want. Apple's fanfare and hype doesn't force anyone into buying an Apple product.

I'm not the kind of person that would watch any product lauch let alone bother watching an Apple one. I have seen clips on the news about Apple launches but I'd always kinda assumed they either bussed in the fanatics from Nerdville or paid them. :p

Those people aren't bussed in. They're there because they want to be there.

Of course no one is forced into anything and I've never said that, I'm just saying that Apple sometimes market their product as something it's not, or make misleading claims about the competition.

BDunnell

14th March 2011, 21:47

Of course no one is forced into anything and I've never said that, I'm just saying that Apple sometimes market their product as something it's not, or make misleading claims about the competition.

Just like every other company you can think of.

MrJan

14th March 2011, 21:50

Just like every other company you can think of.

Exactly. How many kitchen cleaners claim to kill 99.9% of bacteria? How many food adverts claim to be delicious and wholesome? Hell, Tic Tacs even spent years claiming "2 hours of fresh breath, in just 2 calories". Fig me, 2 hours?!!! They don't give you fresh breath at all.

GridGirl

14th March 2011, 21:52

Those people aren't bussed in. They're there because they want to be there.

Then in my opinion they are a bunch of saddo's that need to get out more. :p

Of course no one is forced into anything and I've never said that, I'm just saying that Apple sometimes market their product as something it's not, or make misleading claims about the competition.

...but still no different to lots of other companies. :)

Daniel

14th March 2011, 21:59

You've got to admit though, the hype and fanfare works. MS like a bit of hype too, look at all that crap with Windows 7 and their adverts. Wow, so I can 'snap' two windows together and I can 'buy a present for the missus' without it storing in my history (like anyone believes that InPrivate was invented for anything other than stopping porn sites showing up in the history). Vista was marketed as a huge success but was ultimately ****e and annoying, and you know my feelings on the 360 and the fact that it seems to have been playing catch up to consoles released after it.

It's all marketing designed to shift units, fair enough Apples excuses suck but you can't blame them for claiming that their products are brilliant. And I still maintain that the advantage of an Apple product is simplicity, it's succesful with the masses because it's easy to use. I tried setting up a Desire on a wireless network and it took me twice as long as it did on my iPhone, and didn't actually work.

Well I can't speak for Android. I tried to Frape someone who owns a Desire the other day and couldn't, but it may just take 5 minutes of getting used to it :p

Apple stuff is simple, I'll give it that to a certain extent. Anyone who's owned an iPod will tell you that the iPod itself is good, but iTunes is ****. You should try out a WinPho7 phone, they're dead easy to use and if people would actually get over the whole Microsoft stigma they're actually pretty good.

My thoughts on Vista are well known. IMHO it was a good operating system which although not perfect was still better than XP, earlier last decade there were always stories in the news about big vulnerabilities in XP before SP2 came along. Vista brought proper support for multi core processors and a whole raft of other improvements. UAC was annoying but anyone who knew what they were doing switched it off as soon as Vista booted up for the first time ;) But granted Windows 7 is much better.....

Getting a little more on topic, 2 of my colleagues at work went to a presentation today to talk about iPads in an education environment and both came away seeing obvious positives to the technology but also seeing lots of disadvantages compared to laptops and just generally feeling that it wasn't money well spent.

Daniel

14th March 2011, 22:03

Just like every other company you can think of.

Of course but is this something that we should condone? I'd be FAR more interested in Apple products is they actually said what they could do for me rather than trying to appear more than what they actually are.

MrJan

14th March 2011, 22:05

BDunnell

14th March 2011, 22:20

Of course but is this something that we should condone? I'd be FAR more interested in Apple products is they actually said what they could do for me rather than trying to appear more than what they actually are.

I can only repeat what I said before: I don't think Apple is any different to any other company in this respect. Why single Apple out?

As for Apple's image, maybe it is worth pointing out that journalists might often be well-disposed towards Apple products because the NUJ offers discounts to members with the Apple Store. Private Eye pointed this out a few years ago, the intention being to highlight how this could lead to biased reviewing. However, this was the first I'd heard of this, so I immediately took advantage of my NUJ membership and got money off my new MacBook. Thanks, Private Eye. My own experiences of Apple products? Almost entirely positive, though the physical build quality of MacBooks would appear to leave something to be desired. Mine needed a new screen after a year and part of the trim on the front came away, apparently a common failing. But, again, in all of this, whether positive or negative, there is nothing unique to Apple.

Daniel

14th March 2011, 22:30

Few things from that. Firstly, I haven't really got a anti-MS bias, I just think they should stick to PCs and certainly avoid consoles. Secondly, I hate MediaPlayer, it may run better than iTunes and have better features (and not f things up so much) but I just can't get to grips with it. Thirdly, iPads (and indeed, tablets in general) are pointless in virtually all environments.

I disagree about the iPad and tablets. I think in some environments they are certainly good. I mean imagine you're in hospital and the doctor is making his/her rounds all they need to do is dock their tablet or swipe it at the foot of your bed to get all your charts up and have access to years of your medical data. That sort of thing can only be good. There are other environments where it can also be good too.

But for me the use of an iPad would be when I'm on the couch and when I'm on the crapper. It's too big to be properly portable because if I'm going to walk around with a few hundred pounds of electronic equipment I want it to go into my pocket. It's too big to type on one handed and you can't really type on it two handed either....... My phone also does what the iPad can do but just in a more convenient form factor. When I'm not using my phone I'm probably on my PC and a tablet just isn't as compact or useable as my phone nor does it have as many features as my PC.

There's no excuse for the RROD really, but the fact that Microsoft have gone from nothing to being up there with the rest after just 2 consoles says a lot about how well they've done things. If not for Microsoft then Sony might still not have proper online gaming.....

MrJan

15th March 2011, 10:29

I disagree about the iPad and tablets. I think in some environments they are certainly good. I mean imagine you're in hospital and the doctor is making his/her rounds all they need to do is dock their tablet or swipe it at the foot of your bed to get all your charts up and have access to years of your medical data. That sort of thing can only be good. There are other environments where it can also be good too.

That's why I say virtually all environments. There other places where it makes things a bit easier but TBH I see them as non-essential. As you say you can either use a pc/laptop/netbook for serious typing etc. or a smartphone if portable is needed.

As a side note, I was on holiday last week and one of the lads in the hostel had his iPad stolen (he was in a dorm of 20 and fell asleep with it on his chest). I genuinely cannot see one good reason for taking an iPad with you when you're travelling around Europe. I took a crappy Nokia phone from work (think it was a 3110c) and even that got stolen so it's hardly a big surprise that a piece of kit like an iPad would get lifted.

Dave B

16th March 2011, 12:54

Are you done? Well allow me to retort :p

Apple make some excellent products, there's no two ways about it. They take ideas that others have struggled with (touchscreen phones, tablets, app stores); refine the user experience and market them with style. The vast majority of their products work perfectly the vast majority of the time for the vast majority of users.

Their marketing is superb, such as the way they've engineered queues "round the block" for the new iPad, largely by restricting where you can buy one. You couldn't buy online at launch, and no third party retailers had them. Want an iPad2? Queue up at an Apple store. Looks good in the papers, doesn't it, but it's hardly a way to do business in the 21st century.

Where I do have a problem with Apple is this idea, perpetuated by some of their biggest fans and encouraged by their marketing people, is that they can do no wrong. They have released botched hardware and software more than once, and while they are by no means the only offender they always seem to go on the defensive and either deny the problem or blame the user (First gen Apple TV's failures, "you're holding it wrong" etc).

That's the reason I brought up the alarm clock problem when it resurfaced. It simply should not happen on a ~£500 piece of kit. No excuse.

My other problem with Apple is the way they lock down the ecosystem. Now there's perhaps nothing wrong with that on some hardware - I never hear people complaining that they don't have freedom to root their PS3 or the inbuilt satnav in their BMW. But on a computing device the degree of control is too harsh. I saw a recent Facebook post from someone on here complaining how they were struggling to get iTunes to talk to their phone following a software update - a quick Google revealed that many others had the same problem. Because Apple have this paranoid fear of people exchanging files without their permission there's no way round it. Me? I just have my SD card as a shared drive on my home network, piece of cake.

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that Apple exist. They drive others to compete, and plurality of competition is a good thing. I just simply cannot fathom the blinkered love (or indeed hatred) that some people seem to show for them.

Mark

16th March 2011, 13:41

You couldn't buy online at launch,

That certainly wasn't true for the iPhone 4, I got mine delivered on launch day.

Dave B

16th March 2011, 13:51

That certainly wasn't true for the iPhone 4, I got mine delivered on launch day.
My point related specifically to the iPad2 :)

GridGirl

16th March 2011, 15:29

Daniel and Dave have both previosly mentioned that Apple deny there are any problems with there products. Just from seeing what Steve Jobs said about the iphone 4 I can see where they are coming from. He did say that there was nothing wrong with it when quite obvioulsy on some occassions there were problems. After mounting media pressure they did back down and offer a solution to the problem to people who had previously purchased the phone.

Anyway on a similar subject one of my friends bought a Mac book it suffered split and broken casing a couple of times. This is a known fault and could quite possibly be similar to the experiece suffere by BDunnell. The problem was always fixed under its warranty. The three year warrantly eventually ran out and the fault happened again. I'm not entirely sure how or why my friend came to find the particular website but what he did find was a website telling you step by step how to compain about your faulty Mac book and get yourself a brand new Mac book Pro. Basically reading from the script he'd found my mate called up Apple customer services. and was eventually offered a new Mac book just as the website had suggested. He then gave them some speil about new Mac books not having some of the features that he was used on his old Mac book and him wanting to speak to a higher authority to which he got passed onto a manager who eventually agreed to replace his Mac book which was more than three years old for a nice shiney new Mac book Pro. The only condition was that he sent Apple back his old Mac book with the broken casing otherwise they would deduct money from his account to the value of the Mac book Pro that they were sending him after he'd given them his banking details. Needless to say my mate Mr Ingham Fedexed his old Mac book the next day and is now the happy owner of a nice shiney new Mac book Pro.

Personally I have never had any dealings with Apple customer service but from from the experience of my mate I can't quite tell whether Apple are stupid or just have good customer service when it comes to problems with their products. :s Then again, maybe he just got lucky. On a side note my mate did that last December. I'm not sure if Apple have cottoned on yet but it maybe worth a try. ;)

Jag_Warrior

16th March 2011, 19:43

Their marketing is superb, such as the way they've engineered queues "round the block" for the new iPad, largely by restricting where you can buy one. You couldn't buy online at launch, and no third party retailers had them. Want an iPad2? Queue up at an Apple store. Looks good in the papers, doesn't it, but it's hardly a way to do business in the 21st century.

Dave, you've made a very good and (IMO) pretty well balanced post. So it's not my intention to nitpick it. But I do have to point out that the above is not entirely true. The iPad 2 was available at Best Buy, Target and Walmart, as well as Apple stores. I can't speak to the situation at AT&T or Verizon stores. And I don't believe certain online retailers (Amazon, for instance) got any of the initial batch, but I'm really not sure about that. Even with Apple's industry standard supply chain management and mass production processes, it was only possible to make so many in a short time frame. So it's not that distribution was limited in order to create long lines, but rather that supply was limited because of manufacturing constraints. The last analysts' estimate that I read pegged the launch sales at between 400K and 600K units. Shipping delays are currently in the 4-6 week range from what I understand. So it's not as if Apple is sitting on supply. Even before the concerns about Japanese chip supplies surfaced, Apple was selling the iPad 2's as fast as they could make and ship them.

Where I do have a problem with Apple is this idea, perpetuated by some of their biggest fans and encouraged by their marketing people, is that they can do no wrong. They have released botched hardware and software more than once, and while they are by no means the only offender they always seem to go on the defensive and either deny the problem or blame the user (First gen Apple TV's failures, "you're holding it wrong" etc).

That's the reason I brought up the alarm clock problem when it resurfaced. It simply should not happen on a ~ piece of kit. No excuse.

I think there is a perception among some that Apple or its fans claim that it can do no wrong. But it doesn't matter if we're talking about an $800 computer or a $250K car, any manufacturing process yields defects. Even at the Six Sigma level, there will be approximately 3.4 defects per million opportunities. The alarm clock thing with Apple, Microsoft bricking certain WP7 phones with their recent update or certain Android tablets made by Samsung freezing up, are not manufacturing related (as far as I know) - those are system defects. That doesn't make it any more acceptable to the average consumer. But it does or should make the issue easier to find and correct. Your point is taken. But anyone who thinks that simply having an Apple logo on a computer or a prancing horse on a car makes it defect free is... well... an idiot.

My other problem with Apple is the way they lock down the ecosystem. Now there's perhaps nothing wrong with that on some hardware - I never hear people complaining that they don't have freedom to root their PS3 or the inbuilt satnav in their BMW.

I understand where you're coming from. Apple does have the "walled garden" approach and pretty much always has. You can "jail break" an iOS device... but it voids the warranty. I wanted more horsepower from my WRX. So in a sense, I did a jail break on it. I got about a 30% gain in horsepower. But in doing so, I voided the warranty on the engine. The supposed freedom that people often think they have with other products simply does not exist, especially when the warranty comes into play. I'm not so much defending Apple's approach. But for all the complaints I hear based on the "walled garden", iOS devices have incredibly high retention rates after initial adoption. I look at Apple more as a stock than as a company I want to buy things from. So I pay close attention to not just the adoption rates of things like the iPad, iPhone, iPod and Macs... I also look at the retention rates. And in the case of the iPhone, the retention rates are about the highest in the industry (in North America). So if people really had a problem with iTunes, I don't believe they'd choose another iDevice after their contract was up or buy another iPod after the first one wore out. But iPhone customers tend to keep coming back, at rates higher than the industry average.

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that Apple exist. They drive others to compete, and plurality of competition is a good thing. I just simply cannot fathom the blinkered love (or indeed hatred) that some people seem to show for them.

One of Apple's greatest strengths is its marketing. It's also the basis for the hatred, envy and legitimate criticism too. But as you say, competition is a very good thing. It's why I love racing, specifically Formula One. When there was engine and chassis competition in CART, it was a strong series. Now, with the IRL, it's a spec series and it's at best a step above GP2, if that. Varied competition and the pursuit of a better mousetrap makes the breed stronger. But Apple developed a cult like following in the early/mid 80's. And even during its darkest days, near bankruptcy, that cult maintained. Now, we still have the Apple/Mac cult, but we also have consumers who are brand conscious. And the Apple brand is now ranked alongside the top premium brands in other sectors. In the report I read from 2010, as a brand, Apple was ranked above Rolex, Gucci, Prada and Ferrari - and that surprised me. So yes, some people are buying Apple devices just because they are Apple devices. While others are looking at Macs because they bought an iPhone/iPod for their kid: the halo effect. And in the case of Macs, there are people like me who have grown VERY tired of the Windows experience, and are now ready to try something else... while still having Windows as an option.

But at the end of the day, people need to KNOW what they want and why they want it... and then make an appropriate purchase decision. There was a time when Sony was the electronic brand to have and Dell was the computer brand to have. But the days of the Walkman being king and "Dude, I'm gettin' a Dell!" are over now. So the fad aspect of Apple's popularity could also come to an end.

J4MIE

16th March 2011, 21:28

I have had an Android powered 'smart' phone for about 9 months now and am beyond fed up with it, so yesterday I ordered a replacement non-smart phone from ebay which can't come soon enough! I'll probably keep it for the odd use of t'interweb but for everything else I will be glad to get rid of it. I wouldn't even think of getting an iPhone or any other touchscreen.

Mark

17th March 2011, 08:06

Aye, but yours had hardware problems didn't it?

Daniel

17th March 2011, 13:37

I think there is a perception among some that Apple or its fans claim that it can do no wrong. But it doesn't matter if we're talking about an $800 computer or a $250K car, any manufacturing process yields defects. Even at the Six Sigma level, there will be approximately 3.4 defects per million opportunities. The alarm clock thing with Apple, Microsoft bricking certain WP7 phones with their recent update or certain Android tablets made by Samsung freezing up, are not manufacturing related (as far as I know) - those are system defects. That doesn't make it any more acceptable to the average consumer. But it does or should make the issue easier to find and correct. Your point is taken. But anyone who thinks that simply having an Apple logo on a computer or a prancing horse on a car makes it defect free is... well... an idiot.

To be fair the issue with the Samsung WP7 devices wasn't microsoft's fault, it was Samsung's fault. some of the phones had a different firmware and this caused the issue. My phone which is a Samsung, updated just fine.

I think though that your alarm clock not working in the 21st century is simply not acceptable.

I agree with Daves post, Apple do make some good stuff, but for a lot of reasons a lot of people will never buy it.

GridGirl

17th March 2011, 13:54

My iPhone is so ancient that Apple no longer support it and the alarm clock works just fine. It always has done. I'm not what sure what the moral of my story is. :p ;)

Mark

17th March 2011, 14:10

That your phone is ancient? :p

GridGirl

17th March 2011, 14:19

True, but my alarm clock works. This is a highly important phone feature after all. :p

J4MIE

17th March 2011, 19:11

Aye, but yours had hardware problems didn't it?

No I think it was software issues but still think that it's poorly designed. It'll learn me to sign up to a 2-year contract on the spur of the moment!! :(

At least it has an app that not only rings an alarm but I have to solve a maths puzzle before it switches off :s I don't do mornings at all so 63-17+22 is impossible at 5.30am :bigcry:

Jag_Warrior

17th March 2011, 19:56

To be fair the issue with the Samsung WP7 devices wasn't microsoft's fault, it was Samsung's fault. some of the phones had a different firmware and this caused the issue. My phone which is a Samsung, updated just fine.

I think though that your alarm clock not working in the 21st century is simply not acceptable.

I agree with Daves post, Apple do make some good stuff, but for a lot of reasons a lot of people will never buy it.

No matter who was at fault, if I had a phone that functioned one day and the day after Microsoft sent out an update it became a large paperweight, that would the last phone of that type that I would buy. Microsoft is already having issues capturing market share with the WP7 platform, so I doubt that helped.

But as I said, that is what the free market is all about: people have a wide variety of choices in the mobile phone market these days. There are people who don't/won't buy Apple products, just as there are people who don't/won't buy Microsoft products. I'm glad that we have the choices that we do. But alarm clocks and antennas aside, the objective data on the iPhone's customer retention rate speaks for itself. I'll be anxious to see what the customer retention rate is for the various WP7 phones when that data comes out.

Daniel

17th March 2011, 20:04

No matter who was at fault, if I had a phone that functioned one day and the day after Microsoft sent out an update it became a large paperweight, that would the last phone of that type that I would buy. Microsoft is already having issues capturing market share with the WP7 platform, so I doubt that helped.

But as I said, that is what the free market is all about: people have a wide variety of choices in the mobile phone market these days. There are people who don't/won't buy Apple products, just as there are people who don't/won't buy Microsoft products. I'm glad that we have the choices that we do. But alarm clocks and antennas aside, the objective data on the iPhone's customer retention rate speaks for itself. I'll be anxious to see what the customer retention rate is for the various WP7 phones when that data comes out.

But Apple has done updates which have bricked phones as well. The difference is that microsoft came out and admitted the problem straight away, stopped the update, handed out new phones to those affected and sorted the update out.

Valve Bounce

18th March 2011, 10:55

Funny, but I cannot find anything about this device. In fact, I can't even find any android powered Ipads on Ebay. I bought mine to use in Japan because we had free wi-fi, and I was able to check my email, log onto this board and the footy board, and read the news from the Ozzie papers. I sold my Ipad today for what I paid for it in HK, because I have no use for it anymore.

Dave B

18th March 2011, 11:04

In fact, I can't even find any android powered Ipads on Ebay.
Technically there's no such thing, it would be like looking for an Electrolux Hoover or a JBL Tannoy system :p

Plenty of Android tablets on Amazon and eBay, ranging from spectacularly crappy resistive touchscreens running 1.6, right up to "proper" 10inch screens running 2.2 for a fraction of the price of an iPad.

Valve Bounce

18th March 2011, 11:38

Technically there's no such thing, it would be like looking for an Electrolux Hoover or a JBL Tannoy system :p

Plenty of Android tablets on Amazon and eBay, ranging from spectacularly crappy resistive touchscreens running 1.6, right up to "proper" 10inch screens running 2.2 for a fraction of the price of an iPad.

OK, my bad. Just shows how little I knew about this machine. All I knew was that the one I sold was the latest tablet from China and had a dual core processor. I managed to bargain the guy down HK$290 when I bought it, I used it fro 9 days only, so the guy who bought it from me got a good deal as I included a 16 whatever memory card, and a nice protective case.

Mark

18th March 2011, 11:39

Sounds like a fake ;)

GridGirl

18th March 2011, 11:44

I read today that Apple may be affected by the lack of parts coming out from Japan for the Ipad 2. Its a feasible story but could just as easily be a ploy to make you rush out and buy one next Friday before they sell out.

Mark

18th March 2011, 11:46

It's not beyond question, I've read elsewhere that there were supply problems of certain chips coming out of Japan, which is understandable given the present situation there.

Daniel

18th March 2011, 17:41

Given that if you take more or less any single part out of an iPad that it won't work it's certainly true. The problem is that you can't just set up manufacturing elsewhere all of a sudden.

Valve Bounce

18th March 2011, 23:53

Any reason why they cannot be made in China?

Valve Bounce

19th March 2011, 00:09

Having sold my android tablet after returning from holidays, I think the next time I need to have internet access while on holiday, I would invest in a netbook instead; something like the Acer Ferrari, although by then there will be a superior product or upgrade. The fact that they sell laptops and netbooks at Costco makes this an attractive proposition because the Acer Ferrari is sold with a two year warranty. I think it is priced at just under AUD$600 which is not bad. And of course, Costco will refund your money if you return it within 3 months if you are not happy with it.

Mark

19th March 2011, 08:49

Any reason why they cannot be made in China?
The same reason you can't just change the manufacturing location of any product on a moments notice.

Jag_Warrior

19th March 2011, 16:16

But Apple has done updates which have bricked phones as well. The difference is that microsoft came out and admitted the problem straight away, stopped the update, handed out new phones to those affected and sorted the update out.

When you have a 10% failure rate for an update, and roughly half of the failed updates brick phones, that's kind of hard to deny, right? But Microsoft *tried* to put a spin on their press release too, by saying that "90% of the WP7 phones successfully updated." In my world, a 1 in 10 failure rate would mean that you better start updating your resume ASAP.

"Stuff happens" when speaking of any manufactured product. So I'm not trying to single Microsoft out. But it is simply a fact that Apple has the highest customer retention rate in the mobile phone market, as well as the highest customer satisfaction rating.

Computerworld - Apple's iPhone yesterday again took first place in J.D. Power and Associates' smartphone customer satisfaction rankings.

Thursday's announcement by J.D. Power was the iPhone's fifth consecutive win in the firm's semi-annual ratings.

Apple scored 795 out of a possible 1,000 points in the customer satisfaction survey, leading the two closest rival makers, Motorola (with 763), and HTC (762). Although Apple's score was slightly lower than in last September's survey, its margin of victory was greater.

Last year, the iPhone beat Motorola and HTC by 9 and 19 points, respectively; the newest survey put Apple ahead of those rivals by 22 and 23 points. (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9214790/Apple_s_iPhone_again_tops_J.D._Power_satisfaction_ ranking)

Microsoft is trying really hard to (re)establish itself in the mobile phone market. I don't think MSFT is doing a bad job with WP7 thus far, and I've heard more positives than negatives about the WP7 platform. But it's not an easy market to get into, what with all of the different OS's and makers vying for attention. So any stumble hurts a smaller player more than it would a well established player. It also doesn't help when one of the biggest players (Verizon/Vodaphone) takes a swipe at your platform, and the recent MSFT/Nokia partnership:

Verizon Communications Chief Technology Officer Tony Melone:

"I do want a strong third OS out there. It gives the carriers more flexibility and balances the interests of all the parties. But I still have doubts whether Microsoft will get the traction they are hoping for with Windows Phone 7."

"I don't think Verizon needs the Nokia and Microsoft relationship. Right now the three OS players we see for our network are Android, Apple, and RIM."

To be truly successful here (or anywhere), I think Microsoft is going to have to build better relationships with carriers, so that they'll feature WP7 phones... because that's who makes the difference here. If MSFT spends any amount of time just trying to point out iPhone negatives, the WP7 platform will end up dying on the vine, just as their Zune has. Right now, I'd say the iPhone is the Mercedes of the mobile phone market - and Android is sort of like Ford/GM/Honda (more of a mass marketshare player). And just like in the auto market, there is room for others. But MSFT better start doing a better job of courting carriers or they're going to be left on the sidelines.

Jag_Warrior

19th March 2011, 16:49

Any reason why they cannot be made in China?

The same reason you can't just change the manufacturing location of any product on a moments notice.

Exactly. When a major component of any supply chain is disrupted, it takes some amount of time to move tools, prepare facilities, hire and train workers, etc. And that's assuming that the same company is involved in both locations. If not, then things like intellectual property come into play. And if moving production to China (of all places), I'd say that would be a MAJOR concern. Apple may own the component designs in many/most cases... but the suppliers likely own the processes. From what I've read, Apple will get chips and other components (from Japan) even if others don't, because Apple has advance purchase agreements in place with many of its suppliers. But if a factory is down, then nobody gets components. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out for the various electronics players (with all due respect to the human tragedy of the quake). I just read that first week sales of the iPad2 have already exceeded 1 million units: roughly four times the sales rate of the original iPad (which took about a month to hit 1 million units). One major analyst (Gene Munster) estimated March quarter sales of 5.5 million units. But I don't see how that can happen if flash memory, DRAMs, batteries and overlay glass supplies stay throttled for much longer. Apple reportedly has 2-3 weeks of component supplies in the pipeline. But after that... :dozey:

Valve Bounce

21st March 2011, 01:30

Well, there's a helluva lot coming out of China these days. The tablet that I had was the latest ASK822SP 3G (whatever all that means) with a dual core processor, made in China but designed in Japan. Apple's shortage of Ipads from Japan will only fuel the sale of Androids from China. Mine had a flash player which Apple's didn't, and it also had a better browser capability than Apple's. When these products come out at less than half the next generation Apple's price, they will sell like hot cakes in China and probably much of the far east, a significant market that is probably not in the Western world's stats.

I also understand there is or will be one helluva price war on laptops and netbooks, with many stores offering significant discounts. I also noticed that Costco's laptop counter has been half cleared of products, so I suspect new laptops or netbooks will be put on display shortly.

Valve Bounce

23rd March 2011, 22:23

I've just upgraded my mobile and as I've been a user of HTC's for a few years now, I thought I'd go with another one. I chose the HTC Incredible S and am chuffed to bits with it. I'd even go as far to say its much better than my wifes iphone 4 which I have used extensively. :)

Why are you using your wife's phone extensively? Do you have ulterior motives which you wish to share with us?

Daniel

23rd March 2011, 22:31

I've just upgraded my mobile and as I've been a user of HTC's for a few years now, I thought I'd go with another one. I chose the HTC Incredible S and am chuffed to bits with it. I'd even go as far to say its much better than my wifes iphone 4 which I have used extensively. :)

If it doesn't have a fruit logo on it some people won't be interested in it.

GridGirl

23rd March 2011, 22:44

Equally, if it has an apple logo some people still won't be interested in it. :p

Valve Bounce

24th March 2011, 02:05

Do balls count?

AndyRAC

25th March 2011, 00:43

I have an ipod touch and it's been no bother at all - loads of great apps, some which are free. Now I'm due for a phone upgrade and can't decide which smartphone to get. Did think of the iphone as it's easy to transfer all my music to - but I'm not paying the price for one. So now I'm wondering what to get. HTC always get a good write up, and the Samsung Galaxy Ace/S seem decent too. Whichever is easier to transfer my music files from itunes is the one I'd choose.

GridGirl

25th March 2011, 19:06

AndyRAC, you say you have quite a lot of apps for your Ipod touch of which some are free. This means that you have obviously paid for and invested in apps to whatever extent. If you were to buy a different make of smartphone one would assume that you might re-invest in quite possibly the the same apps again. Its not something I've ever looked into but I assume that Apple designed apps are not transferable to other mobile platforms. Whether this is down to Apple or the individual app designers I have no idea. I'm sure Daniel might tell me its Apple. :p

Having originally gone with Apple I would say me and the other half (well the other half mainly as itunes is linked to his bank account) have invested in apps which would make the decision to swap from Apple a difficult one. I would assume if you went with Android or Windows the transfering of apps between smartphones may be much less of an issue as long as you stayed with the same platform. I really have no idea about how it would work. I'm guessing not many people have any practical experience of swapping smartphone platforms. Most people I know have either stuck to the same platform or are still on their first smartphone.

Mark

25th March 2011, 19:13

Yep you can't transfer apps between OSes on phones. They are incompatible in the same way as applications on desktop OSes are. So yes, if you change your OS you'll have to buy your apps again. Which is to the advantage of the smartphone OS producers so you won't leave!

I had this issue with going from Symbian to iPhone, but I didn't have many apps for my N97. The one exception to the above was the Viewranger mapping application, I had to pay again for the app itself but they allowed me to transfer the maps I'd originally purchased for my Nokia, which is good as they were like £150 worth and them coming out with that was the final push towards me getting an iPhone.

Mark

25th March 2011, 19:14

And I must have bought TomTom in one form or another about 6 times :mark;

Daniel

25th March 2011, 20:34

GridGirl

25th March 2011, 21:06

Apps, no scrap that, good apps are what make smartphones so good.

Daniel

26th March 2011, 14:59

Exactly. When a major component of any supply chain is disrupted, it takes some amount of time to move tools, prepare facilities, hire and train workers, etc. And that's assuming that the same company is involved in both locations. If not, then things like intellectual property come into play. And if moving production to China (of all places), I'd say that would be a MAJOR concern. Apple may own the component designs in many/most cases... but the suppliers likely own the processes. From what I've read, Apple will get chips and other components (from Japan) even if others don't, because Apple has advance purchase agreements in place with many of its suppliers. But if a factory is down, then nobody gets components. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out for the various electronics players (with all due respect to the human tragedy of the quake). I just read that first week sales of the iPad2 have already exceeded 1 million units: roughly four times the sales rate of the original iPad (which took about a month to hit 1 million units). One major analyst (Gene Munster) estimated March quarter sales of 5.5 million units. But I don't see how that can happen if flash memory, DRAMs, batteries and overlay glass supplies stay throttled for much longer. Apple reportedly has 2-3 weeks of component supplies in the pipeline. But after that... :dozey:

Tbh I doubt there is much in terms of Apple IP most Apple products other than the ARM based A4 and A5 processors. Flash memory, DRAM and so on can come from anywhere tbh.

Daniel

26th March 2011, 15:41

When you have a 10% failure rate for an update, and roughly half of the failed updates brick phones, that's kind of hard to deny, right? But Microsoft *tried* to put a spin on their press release too, by saying that "90% of the WP7 phones successfully updated." In my world, a 1 in 10 failure rate would mean that you better start updating your resume ASAP.

"Stuff happens" when speaking of any manufactured product. So I'm not trying to single Microsoft out. But it is simply a fact that Apple has the highest customer retention rate in the mobile phone market, as well as the highest customer satisfaction rating.

Microsoft is trying really hard to (re)establish itself in the mobile phone market. I don't think MSFT is doing a bad job with WP7 thus far, and I've heard more positives than negatives about the WP7 platform. But it's not an easy market to get into, what with all of the different OS's and makers vying for attention. So any stumble hurts a smaller player more than it would a well established player. It also doesn't help when one of the biggest players (Verizon/Vodaphone) takes a swipe at your platform, and the recent MSFT/Nokia partnership:

Verizon Communications Chief Technology Officer Tony Melone:

To be truly successful here (or anywhere), I think Microsoft is going to have to build better relationships with carriers, so that they'll feature WP7 phones... because that's who makes the difference here. If MSFT spends any amount of time just trying to point out iPhone negatives, the WP7 platform will end up dying on the vine, just as their Zune has. Right now, I'd say the iPhone is the Mercedes of the mobile phone market - and Android is sort of like Ford/GM/Honda (more of a mass marketshare player). And just like in the auto market, there is room for others. But MSFT better start doing a better job of courting carriers or they're going to be left on the sidelines.

It is a very complex market. You not only have to please users but also carriers as you say. Apple can do what they want in terms of updates, update support for Android devices is patchy at best and Microsoft have slightly alienated carriers by forcing them to push updates out. Carriers can slow things down by "testing" the updates but in the end they have to push them out and some carriers like to stop updates coming out so the phone that the customer has in his/her hand doesn't have as many features as those the carrier will try and hawk to them. I remember my n95 being several updates behind what Nokia had released, I debranded the phone and it ran much better!

Mark

26th March 2011, 16:44

Daniel

26th March 2011, 17:18

Also traditionally carriers wanted to install their own bloatware to advertise their own services. And they didn't want to have to redo that for different firmware so they didn't bother. Apple was one of the first to say that this wouldn't happen with their phones, and it was widely predicted at the time they would fail for this reason!

Well Apple took the risk and it's paid off.

WP7 is quite good in this regard. There isn't any carrier related bloatware on there, though carriers are allowed to put an App on the phone but you can delete it or just not use it.

GridGirl

27th March 2011, 14:17

The clock on my iPhone change to British Summer Time all by itself last night. My alarm clock also went off at 6.45 for the Grand Prix this morning which also happened to be the time I'd set it to go off. All is well on the alarm clock front for me. :p

Mark

27th March 2011, 16:33

Karen is thinking of getting an iPhone. How does the two iPhones from one iTunes account work then?

Daniel

27th March 2011, 16:56

Don't think it does

Mark

27th March 2011, 16:57

It does cos Ibby and GridGirl do it.

GridGirl

27th March 2011, 18:25

You'd probably have to ask Ibby. :p I suppose it works because the phones have two different names. My iphone is backed up under and synced under its name and Ibby's does the same under whatever his is called. The best thing about using one account itunes account is obviously the sharing of apps and in theory the spreading of the cost of apps. I suppose TomTom was quite an expensive app but when we've both got use of it and could be using it in different places it does seem less of an expensive purchase. It is still far more cheaper than buying two seperate TomTom's. I also have the added bonus of itunes being linked to Ibby's bank account so he buys all the apps and I just get them for free. It will be a sad day when he change itunes to the joint bank account and I hope it never comes. :D

Mark, I would think that if Karen were to get an iphone she would just need to give it a name when linking it to itunes, select all the music, video's, apps and whatever from what is already stored and then she would be good to go from the start. :)

donKey jote

27th March 2011, 22:11

just need to give it a name when linking it to itunes, select all the music, video's, apps and whatever from what is already stored and then she would be good to go from the start. :)
that's how it (finally and somewhat surprisingly :p ) worked in the donkey household, albeit with 2 ipods instead of iphones.
I think I needed to logout from the account it (itunes) was in first though for it to synchronise from the PC to the second device :)

Mark

28th March 2011, 07:25

Some on the news this morning whinging about the iPhone clock bug again. Like, why is this still happening, shouldn't it have been fixed?! Yes, it was, but you haven't updated your software!

MrJan

28th March 2011, 08:28

Some on the news this morning whinging about the iPhone clock bug again. Like, why is this still happening, shouldn't it have been fixed?! Yes, it was, but you haven't updated your software!

I, like GridGirl, used my phone to wake me up for the GP and it went off fine at ten to seven BST.

Mark

28th March 2011, 08:47

It will be a sad day when he change itunes to the joint bank account and I hope it never comes. :D

Your money is his money and his money is your money, if it isn't the case already, it will be soon ;)

Mark, I would think that if Karen were to get an iphone she would just need to give it a name when linking it to itunes, select all the music, video's, apps and whatever from what is already stored and then she would be good to go from the start. :)

Cheers! I might give that a try.
It's a bit of a choice however as Karen already has an iTunes account for her iPod so it would mean leaving behind the purchases for that - although it's not like her iPod is going to stop working.

Daniel

28th March 2011, 10:28

Daniel

28th March 2011, 10:30

It does cos Ibby and GridGirl do it.

I take it back then! :p

Mark

28th March 2011, 10:30

Never should have happened in the first place!

Very true, but the fact remains that the problem has been fixed by a software update. Was it Apple's fault it happened in the first place, yes! Is it their fault it's still happening because people have failed to update their phones, no!

MrJan

28th March 2011, 11:05

Never should have happened in the first place!

Besides the point when you get people moaning about a problem that has been rectified and could be solved if they updated. It'd be like someone not sending a Toyota back in that recall and then being shocked when the throttle stuck open.

Mark

28th March 2011, 13:10

Has anyone used the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4? Karen is thinking of getting the 3GS 8GB instead as it's £140 cheaper upfront cost than the iPhone 4.

I guess it's missing the retina display, forward facing camera, good GPS, and has a slower processor, but what else?

GridGirl

28th March 2011, 15:38

The 3GS is alot better and more significantly alot faster than the 3G. I dont have any experience of the 4G but Ingham says its much bette than his old 3GS.

I didn't think I would use anything like 8GB when I got mine over 2 years ago and thought paying £99 for the smaller one was more than enough. I would say that 8GB is too small in memory size if your going to put TomTom on it but if your not it would most probably be OK. Due to the a combination of the size of TomTom and the app updating itself by downloading the whole app including the update rather than just the update means that my phone usually has to be rebuilt when an update comes out. I suppose its easy enough to do but its still hastle that you wouldn't get if you had the 16GB one. :)

Jag_Warrior

28th March 2011, 19:01

Has anyone used the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4? Karen is thinking of getting the 3GS 8GB instead as it's cheaper upfront cost than the iPhone 4.

I guess it's missing the retina display, forward facing camera, good GPS, and has a slower processor, but what else?

Will she be tied to a contract for any period of time? I saw an ad for a smaller carrier in the U.S. and they're offering the 3GS for $0... but they tie purchasers to a 3 year contract (where the typical contract here is 2 years). If she won't be tied to a contract, she could get the 3GS now and then upgrade whenever she wants. If she will be tied to a contract (and she doesn't need a new phone right now), she might wait until late summer/early fall when the iPhone 5 comes out and get an iPhone 4 on discount. Just an idea...

BleAivano

29th March 2011, 19:19

this is a really useful app for android: https://market.android.com/details?id=de.gebdev.aWARemoteFree&feature=order_history
its called basically turns your phone into a remote control for Winamp. You will also need the server program which you can get at the developers website.

There both a free version and a pay version. I've only tried the free version and its very good. :)

Valve Bounce

30th March 2011, 03:08

OK! here's what I'd like to put to the forum. The new iPad2 costs just under AUD$800 here, same as the Samsung (both at $781 I think) for the basic tablet. Now I've just checked the laptops at Amazon, and my search into the Acer lines show the unit has the same specs as this: http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/model/LX.TZF03.021

For $750 from Costco, this laptop has a 15.6" screen, i5 cpu, 4GB memory, 500GB hard drive, and an extreme 8 hour battery.

So! can anyone please explain to me the advantage of buying an Apple iPad2 for just under $800? over this Acer Aspire laptop that comes with Windows 7 home premium?

GridGirl

30th March 2011, 09:05

There are probably not that many advantages or disadvantages. It's more likely just a matter of personal preference.

We go to the Lake District alot and take our laptops. The family also have a communal Orange Dongle thing that is left in the Lake District for anyone to use while they are there. Alternatively, if we ditched the laptop and Orange Dongle we would get an iPad with 3G capabilities which would essentially let us do the same thing. If at home a laptop or an iPad would be connected to our WiFi network. I actually really like the iPad but can't really justify the purchase of one. If someone was to give me one it would quickly become a favoured toy but until then I will just stick to the laptop and the pc in our study.

Mark

30th March 2011, 09:15

Valve Bounce

30th March 2011, 12:52

I think the iPad (or any tablet) is fine if all you are doing is some general browsing, reading of the forums (the Tapatalk application works on iPad now, just search for Motorsport Forums when you download the app! :p ). Or if you are facebooking or playing a few games etc, then a tablet is probably what you want. However if you are doing real work or want to type out documents etc then you'll at least need a laptop.

The iPad is indeed 'neat' but it's way overpriced for what it is. But it's really just a supersized iPhone, and it's not just iPhones which are expensive, most phones are, except you don't notice as it's bundled up with your airtime plan.

Well, the ASK android tablet that I bought in HK for $250 (including a 16 gig card) allpwed me to do what you said above, and my tablet even had a flash player. And I didn't need to download any apps to visit this forum, or the skiing forums, or read the daily news from Oz when I was at Niseko.

BUT I simply cannot see the advantage or even logic paying more for the Apple iPad2 than a laptop with an i5 CPU, with an 8 hour extended battery life. I mean the Acer laptop I mentioned above would allow for some very serious gaming, and it has a decent keyboard, and it costs less. With skype, I can make some very convenient long distance calls with the laptop. I know I may be old fashioned, but on my next overseas holiday, I will simply go to Costco and see what their latest deal is on a laptop, or a netbook.

Mark

30th March 2011, 12:54

And I didn't need to download any apps to visit this forum, or the skiing forums, or read the daily news from Oz when I was at Niseko.

Well you don't need to download apps to view this forum either. It works just fine using a web browser, either looking at the desktop site or the mobile skin. It's just that the app makes it more convenient.

Valve Bounce

30th March 2011, 13:22

...............and access my email. I forgot. :(

Dave B

30th March 2011, 16:39

I saw an ad for a smaller carrier in the U.S. and they're offering the 3GS for $0... but they tie purchasers to a 3 year contract (where the typical contract here is 2 years).

3 years! :eek:

18 or 24 months is becoming the norm in the UK for subsidised handsets, but a few providers are moving back to 12 months on cheaper phones. I'm on a 24 month deal but it does have an option at 12 months for an upgrade or a discount.

Mark

30th March 2011, 17:11

I've never had longer than a 12 month contract and have no intention of doing so either. Certainly whenever my wife has had an 18 month contract she's been very frustrated with the phone in the final 6 months.

Daniel

30th March 2011, 20:13

3 years! :eek:

18 or 24 months is becoming the norm in the UK for subsidised handsets, but a few providers are moving back to 12 months on cheaper phones. I'm on a 24 month deal but it does have an option at 12 months for an upgrade or a discount.

I think I'm on a 24 month contract but tbh I only did so as no one offered WP7 phones on PAYG. I did have money set aside just to buy the phone outright but no one wanted to sell one to me! :p Next time I think I'll just buy the phone outright as it ends up being cheaper :) When Nokia release their Windows Phones in 2012 I will probably upgrade if they offer any big improvements over my Omnia 7. That said I did get a better deal on my contract by haggling a bit :)

MrJan

31st March 2011, 08:31

Contract? Don't deal with any of that rubbish. Seriously though my use of a phone is so light that it would be silly for me to go contract. I have PAYG with o2 and if I top up by £10 I get 500mb internet and 300 free texts for the a month, I haven't yet exceeded either of those limits. Also I phone people so rarely that I never really eat into the £10 either, so after two months I've usually got about £18 unused that I'll spend on texts and internet for a bit, when that runs out I bung on another £10 and get the free texts again.

Mark

31st March 2011, 08:38

There's one particular issue with the iPhone 4, in that it uses a micro-SIM card. As far as I know no other phone uses that type of SIM, therefore mobile providers know it's for an iPhone and hence will charge extra for it!

GridGirl

31st March 2011, 10:18

I'm on a 30 day rolling contract which suits me fine. I might go on another fixed contract when my phone dies but I'll just worry about that when the time comes. Especially seeing as we recently sold most of our old mobiles phones on Mazuma mobile. The ones we didn't manage to sell must be well over 10 years old now. :s

Daniel

31st March 2011, 10:38

I remember Nokia lol. :p
The last Nokia I had was a 5800 Express Music phone and it was reliable but not the best for internet, email and social networking sites. I found their OS laggy and it crashed alot towards the end of its use. I actually sent it off to fonebank a couple of weeks back and they gave me £71 for it!! I don't think I'd have another Nokia unless they also joined the Android market rather than pouring money into the failure they seem to be pursuing now in regards to their own version. Its good to hear they've bit the bullet and invested in Windows mobile, but I can't help but think they have let their competitors overtake them by investing in an OS that is so much better elsewhere. :)

Nokia dropped the ball a couple of years ago and have never really picked it back up properly. The N8 seems to review well in terms of the hardware, but the OS seems to let it down a little. I think the WP7 Nokia's will be cracking phones tbh. I think they should have gone Android as well but if they can make WP7 work well it'll be good.

Mark

31st March 2011, 10:49

It's certainly my intention to hold onto my phone for the whole of this year and well into 2012. And then see what Apple comes up with in terms of the iPhone 6 (or whatever the one after the next one will be)

And I don't mean that I will just buy an iPhone 6 - I may well do, however I'll make a choice based on what's on the market at the time, as I expect NokiaWP7 will be established by that point and Android etc will have evolved. However unlike previously the apps situation will likely be a strong pull for me to stay with Apple, the likes of 59p games doesn't matter so much, however when you've got the likes of TomTom £60ish and Viewranger - £200, then you have to think long and hard about switching. Not to mention other things you have such as chargers, windscreen mounts etc.

I've always found so far that phones go in 2 year cycles, i.e. a year after you get your phone the others on the market will only be a slight improvement, but after 2 years the improvement will be massive.

Having said that, I tend to be quite hard on my phones, as they spend most of their time in my pocket, getting scratched etc, and they end up in the shower room at work etc, so tend to get wet (no matter how much I try to avoid it), they are tending to be going wrong after a years use anyway!

Daniel

31st March 2011, 11:10

Mark

31st March 2011, 11:13

My phones always tend to look really good :p I carry my Omnia 7 with me everywhere but the screen is completely unscratched and there's the tiniest of dents in the side. I have a strict policy of always keeping my phone in my top pocket away from keys and so on. I should buy a screen protector for it but in the 5 or so months I've had it it's not been necessary! :)

After my N96 got scratched so much you could hardly see the screen any more I made it a strict policy for me to keep my phone in my left pocket and my keys in my right at all times! Still, it doesn't always work out that way!

Daniel

31st March 2011, 11:40

After my N96 got scratched so much you could hardly see the screen any more I made it a strict policy for me to keep my phone in my left pocket and my keys in my right at all times! Still, it doesn't always work out that way!

When I'm working I always keep my phone in my shirt pocket and have nothing else in it. When I'm out I keep it in my left pocket and have keys in the right one, no exceptions! :)

GridGirl

31st March 2011, 12:32

I didnt realise phone and keys needed so much order. I have handbag with multiple pockets for all manner of junk. :D Thinking about it, the pocket thing is most probably a better solution. :p

Mark

31st March 2011, 12:43

I didnt realise phone and keys needed so much order. I have handbag with multiple pockets for all manner of junk. :D Thinking about it, the pocket thing is most probably a better solution. :p

Well a handbag is probably better as it's less of a confined space than a trouser pocket. But I ain't carrying no handbag :p

GridGirl

31st March 2011, 13:30

Mark, I do believe the correct term for you would be to carry a Manbag. ;) Alas, I find the bigger the bag the more junk I tend to carry round. You men have it so easy when all you need to worry about is two pockets. :p

Dave B

31st March 2011, 14:13

It's a well-known law of the universe that crap expands to fill the space allocated to it!

Mark

31st March 2011, 14:26

It's a well-known law of the universe that crap expands to fill the space allocated to it!

Aye! You just have to look in the boot of my car for evidence of that :p

Daniel

31st March 2011, 21:43

Daniel deep breath mate and take note. Buy a bloody screen protector. The other day I threw a belt down on my bed which also happened to have my HTC Incredible S lying face up, and the buckle bounced on the screen. To my horror it had a big circular dent in the middle but when I peeled the screen protector off it was only in the protective film. I had another so applied it straight away once my heart had stopped trying to escape through my chest. Accidents happen and it could have been a 60 quid mistake.. :eek:

A mate of mine uses his iphone 4 with a shattered screen. although he can't see a single thing on it, it still dials and he can send extremely funny text messages that make little sense. Its good for opening bottles of beer though. ;)

I know I should :p

CaptainRaiden

31st March 2011, 21:58

BUT I simply cannot see the advantage or even logic paying more for the Apple iPad2 than a laptop with an i5 CPU, with an 8 hour extended battery life. I mean the Acer laptop I mentioned above would allow for some very serious gaming, and it has a decent keyboard, and it costs less. With skype, I can make some very convenient long distance calls with the laptop. I know I may be old fashioned, but on my next overseas holiday, I will simply go to Costco and see what their latest deal is on a laptop, or a netbook.

Agreed 100%. I played around with an iPad 2 at a mall, and I don't get what the big deal is. It's nothing but a compact snazzy toy or an iPhone on steroids. And for that money, one can get a KICK-ASS laptop which would do way much more and wipe the floor with the iPad 2 when it comes to running certain applications or games. For the line of work I am in, iPad would pretty much be useless compared to a laptop.

The price still shocks me though. But then again, it's typical Apple crap, you pay double and get substantially less in return. Just look at their Macbook line. Sony also has these weird ballooned prices for their Vaio line. I just don't understand what one can get extra by paying $400 more for the exact same spec as an Acer or a Dell.

Valve Bounce

1st April 2011, 01:46

Maybe we should have a separate thread for phones, as distinct from iPads, Androids and netbooks and laptops.

Valve Bounce

1st April 2011, 01:51

Agreed 100%. I played around with an iPad 2 at a mall, and I don't get what the big deal is. It's nothing but a compact snazzy toy or an iPhone on steroids. And for that money, one can get a KICK-ASS laptop which would do way much more and wipe the floor with the iPad 2 when it comes to running certain applications or games. For the line of work I am in, iPad would pretty much be useless compared to a laptop.

The price still shocks me though. But then again, it's typical Apple crap, you pay double and get substantially less in return. Just look at their Macbook line. Sony also has these weird ballooned prices for their Vaio line. I just don't understand what one can get extra by paying $400 more for the exact same spec as an Acer or a Dell.

At last, a sensible answer to my question. I'm just waiting for the next lot of laptops to go onto the counter at Costco. Also, Hardly Normal is offering 40% off their laptops and nothing to pay until next year, but I prefer Costco.

GridGirl

1st April 2011, 10:17

Valve Bounce

1st April 2011, 13:34

Valve, you previously did get sensible answers to your question. The only thing is that no one agreed with your opinion to such an extent until X-ecutioner replied to the thread.

Oh and can you please stop talking about Costco. Every post I read from you makes me want a Costco slice of pizza and frozen yoghurt. :D

Well, we just bought a Queen sized sheet set: 2 sheets and pillow cases, 600 count Egyptian cotton for less than aud$50. Original price was $246 on the tag. Now, I just have to wait until next Jamuary to buy my laptop.

Daniel

1st April 2011, 18:52

Valve, you previously did get sensible answers to your question. The only thing is that no one agreed with your opinion to such an extent until X-ecutioner replied to the thread.

Oh and can you please stop talking about Costco. Every post I read from you makes me want a Costco slice of pizza and frozen yoghurt. :D

I like my obligatory £1.50 hotdog and postmix coke and browsing the tyres.

Valve Bounce

18th April 2011, 05:21

I just thought I'd bump this thread again. I was in Costco last week, and they had net books down to aud$330, while a laptop with an i7 CPU is now under $1000.
Yeah! Daniel, I also browse the tyres because when mine have to be replaced (hopefully they will last another 12 months), Costco has great prices on Michelins.

AndyRAC

3rd May 2011, 12:22

Well after 5/6 Nokia phones, I’ve finally ‘abandoned’ them. Got a free upgrade to a HTC Desire S, it’s like night and day comparing Symbian and Android. Well pleased with it, and with lots of good, free apps available.
While I appreciate the i-Phone 4 is the market leader, I simply couldn’t justify it’s price, and as ever with Apple – it’s well overpriced.

Mark

3rd May 2011, 12:34

Same here, I had 5/6 Nokia's too - 5/6 because I had two N73's! And I think most people have reached the same conclusion, than Symbian was just too old to be an effective smartphone platform any more. It was good for it's day but typically Nokia failed to capitalise on it. Symbian was one of the first to allow third party apps to run, but the process of adding them was difficult so the majority of people didn't do it - and didn't know about it!

My wife was in a similar situation, had bought Nokia's for years but when her latest one stopped working she decided to get an iPhone 3GS instead. She wasn't really bothered about having an iPhone as such, but as I had an iPhone her having one too makes sense.

In any case, Symbian is now effectively dead as a smartphone platform, the only problem being they should have killed it about 3 years ago!

Dave B

3rd May 2011, 13:23

Symbian was a great OS, but Nokia made it almost impossible to find any software or install it.

As an example, when I had an E71 and wanted to install Maps, I had to register with the Nokia website, download a map to my PC, install the installer software (!), connect a cable, then finally install the map to my phone.

On Android I go to Market, click "install" and wait about 10 seconds.

odykas

3rd May 2011, 16:14

Android rocks :D

But it's based on Linux, so Daniel please use Windoze Mobile :p :

Daniel

3rd May 2011, 20:26

I could have had the iphone 4 had I wanted it but I personally preferred the HTC and every iphone user I know just can't grasp that concept lol. Thats mighty fine, powerful advertising by Apple, I'll give them that. :)

That's the thing, I can understand why people don't like Windows Phone 7 phones even though I think they're great. But lots of Apple people are confused when someone says that they don't like Apple stuff.

tOdy, I'd not Windows Mobile, it's Windows Phone :p

Mark

4th May 2011, 08:43

MS do like their ambiguous titling! Should have called it Bing Mobile :p

I read on The Register that MS are building a Apple/Andriod to Windows Phone conversion kit for apps so make it easier for developers to port their offerings from the other platforms.

There has yet to be any significant market penetration in that regard however, most apps seem to be developed for iPhone and Android with Windows just getting the third party rip off versions! This isn't surprising of course since it hasn't been out too long and will quite possibly change once Nokia starts pushing the handsets.

It's interesting that Microsoft always seems to be behind the curve these days, they were with internet, with games consoles, in some cases they've come back very strongly, such as with the XBox or Internet Explorer, or not so strongly as with Bing. It'll be interesting to see how windows mobile pans out, and if it will tempt me away from the iPhone 6 ;)

Daniel

4th May 2011, 10:04

Bing is good enough, but googling is just such an ingrained behaviour.

WP7 will take off when Nokia start launching handsets.

I have no issues with apps tbh. I find most apps for most phones a bit rubbish and or redundant anyway

Mark

4th May 2011, 10:45

I have no issues with apps tbh. I find most apps for most phones a bit rubbish and or redundant anyway

True, it's the same with software on any platform, 99% of it is going to be tat! But I still say that WP is not yet a default choice for developers, the way iOS and Android (in that order) is at the moment. MS is seeking to change that, and good luck to them!

One advantage Apple has over Android handsets is that it's very easy, with Apple you have a choice of one phone (in different memory sizes) and that's it. With Android there are a great number of choices, if you want to put in the time to research this is great, but a great many people don't, they just want a phone.

Mark

4th May 2011, 10:46

PS Daniel, have you ever used an iPhone or Android device? How does Windows compare?

MrJan

4th May 2011, 10:57

Bing is good enough, but googling is just such an ingrained behaviour.

I don't like the layout for some reason, I even stopped using multimap.com when it got taken over. I suppose that using Google for years and the fact that google has become a verb means that it's always a first choice. My parents use ask or yahoo and it drives me mad because you just get a screen filled with adverts.

Mark

4th May 2011, 11:02

Multimap is good because it will give you Ordnance Survey maps in a draggable format, which no other site does - even the Ordanance Survey site! It may sound nit-picky but for a long time I didn't like the Microsoft mapping (didn't they used to have it under the autoroute brand?) because it changed the colours of the roads to fit the American style mapping. They've fixed that now and motorways are in their familiar blue, A roads in green etc.

Daniel

4th May 2011, 13:40

I've used an iPhone a few times and the same with android. They're not bad phones, I think moat smartphones are decent. The thing is the cost of the iPhone, like henners said, it's simply not worth what they charge. I could afford an iPhone no problem, I just object to spending that much more just for some magic. Android phones are decent too, I just preferred the wp7 interface.

Mark

4th May 2011, 14:01

I think moat smartphones are decent.

If you're hiding in a ditch in Rothbury?

AndyRAC

4th May 2011, 14:48

If you're hiding in a ditch in Rothbury?

There's lots of ditches in Rothbury - as well as a very good Rally stage........

As for the cost of phones - I really would have liked an i-Phone4 - purely for ease of use, I already have an i-Pod nano and an i-Pod Touch. So it seemed like a sensible decision to get one - all my apps/ music could be synched with no problem. However, as I've already said - I'm not paying that money - upwards of £200 to just buy it, then £25-30 per month contract... :eek: A free upgrade to a HTC Desire S was far more sensible - and so far I'm well pleased with it.

However, you have to hand it to Apple......they know how to market a product..

Mark

4th May 2011, 15:07

There's lots of ditches in Rothbury - as well as a very good Rally stage........

As for the cost of phones - I really would have liked an i-Phone4 - purely for ease of use, I already have an i-Pod nano and an i-Pod Touch. So it seemed like a sensible decision to get one - all my apps/ music could be synched with no problem. However, as I've already said - I'm not paying that money - upwards of £200 to just buy it, then £25-30 per month contract... :eek: A free upgrade to a HTC Desire S was far more sensible - and so far I'm well pleased with it.

However, you have to hand it to Apple......they know how to market a product..

My wife was of the same view, £200 then £30 per month was too much. So instead of getting the iPhone 4 she got an iPhone 3GS which was just £30 a month and no upfront fee. Having not used one before, only my iPhone 4 I've been quite impressed that despite it's lower resolution display etc it performs just as my much more expensive version does!

GridGirl

4th May 2011, 15:16

I didn't realise that iphones cost so much these days! :s I paid £99 for mine a couple a years ago but in hindsight should have paid a bit more for a bigger memory size. I was just looking up the cost on the O2 website and it appears that the iphone 4 white version has recently been released. Well I presume its just been released seeing as I managed to find a page telling me the availability at stores in the UK at at noon today and also telling me the page will be updated at 5pm. Theres a big part of me that has to admire Apple for releasing the same product in a different colour almost 11 months after it released the original version and there still being an apparent rush to buy its product. :D I only assume there is a rush to buy it from the availability webpage I found. Please note that this remark can not be substantiated as I have absolutely no confirmation that people are rushing out to buy Iphone 4 whites although O2 would have you believe that you need to get in quick.

MrJan

4th May 2011, 15:41

My wife was of the same view, £200 then £30 per month was too much. So instead of getting the iPhone 4 she got an iPhone 3GS which was just £30 a month and no upfront fee. Having not used one before, only my iPhone 4 I've been quite impressed that despite it's lower resolution display etc it performs just as my much more expensive version does!

I went with the even cheaper option of getting a second hand 3G off eBay. This means I can be PAYG and if I top up for £10 each month I get 300 free texts and 'unlimited' internet (think it's actually 500mb). Whatever it is seems to serve me well as I quite often have £8+ at the end of each month (where what has been spent is just whenever I've actually phone someone).

Mark

5th May 2011, 11:23

Daniel, GOOD NEWS!
There is now a WP7 geocaching app: http://www.geocaching.com/wp7/default.aspx Enjoy :D

GridGirl

5th May 2011, 14:45

Daniel, GOOD NEWS!
There is now a WP7 geocaching app: http://www.geocaching.com/wp7/default.aspx Enjoy :D

I'm sure he's rushing to download it as we speak. :p

Daniel

5th May 2011, 14:50

There has been a wp7 geocaching app for months......

Mark

6th May 2011, 10:48

And how are you getting on with it? :p

BDunnell

6th May 2011, 11:21

However, you have to hand it to Apple......they know how to market a product..

Shame they don't know how to make one with decent battery life. This (apart from the overall build quality of my MacBook) is my sole real gripe about any, for which read all, of my Apple products.

Daniel

6th May 2011, 14:06

And how are you getting on with it? images/smilies/tongue.gif</p>

*</p>
It's installed as a trial on my phone but I've not user it as geocaching is rather a waste of time :p

Daniel

10th May 2011, 16:07

WP7 looking like a lame duck now is it? ;)

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/09/microsofts-next-major-release-of-windows-phone-will-be-previewe/
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/10/microsofts-acquisition-of-skype-for-8-5-billion-becomes-offici

WP7 + MANGO (see link above) + NOKIA + SKYPE = WIN

They just need to announce some slightly more interesting handsets and it's game on.

Daniel

11th May 2011, 10:01

No one finds that just a tiny bit interesting?

Mark

11th May 2011, 10:21

555-04Q2

11th May 2011, 10:33

Mark

11th May 2011, 10:50

Daniel

11th May 2011, 10:57

So no taking into account the cost of the software, which is the major component of the phone? Of the $321 profit they have to pay back the money they invested in developing the thing in the first place. Having said that, yes, it is overpriced - I agree!

Of course this isn't even Apples main revenue stream, think how much they get from apps etc.

Well they probably developed the software a few years ago and are steadily just unlocking features :p

555-04Q2

11th May 2011, 11:00

So no taking into account the cost of the software, which is the major component of the phone? Of the $321 profit they have to pay back the money they invested in developing the thing in the first place. Having said that, yes, it is overpriced - I agree!

Of course this isn't even Apples main revenue stream, think how much they get from apps etc.

That's the production cost for the new IPhone 4 itself. Not sure what the development costs are/were.

Money is always in the software, not the hardware, so the margins there must be even bigger!

555-04Q2

11th May 2011, 11:03

Well they probably developed the software a few years ago and are steadily just unlocking features :p

You are probably right. People don't realise that tommorrow's computers & computed systems have already been developed, the "upgrades" are just released slowly especially as loose components such as hard drives,graphics cards, software updates etc so you buy stuff to make your computer & computed system better at a higher price. Smart business.

Daniel

11th May 2011, 11:23

Let's wait and see what they actually come up with. At the moment we're being asked to wait until 2011 for the new Nokias, so I certainly wouldn't buy a Nokia before then and I probably wouldn't buy another Windows phone before then either before I see what their offerings are.

I can only see the Nokia WP7 devices being release in 2012 being very good. Nokia's hardware has always been good, Microsoft is being very strict with hardware requirements and the OS is coming on in leaps and bounds.

Personally I'm not all that bothered about specs.

My phone is quick
Has 3g
The OS is good
The camera is decent enough
The screen is bright enough, is fantastic in terms of colours and blacks.
It's not a brick

Personally I think too much importance is placed on specs these days above price. Sometimes with Apple, a new phone simply ends up being slimmer or with something slightly bigger, faster or whatever and IMHO that's not reason enough for buying myself a new phone.

Mark

11th May 2011, 11:47

Daniel

11th May 2011, 12:08

I'd disagree with Nokia's hardware always being good. They have a tendancy to underspec their phones with too little CPU power and too little memory for the task at hand. Then N97 being a case in point. However as you say Microsoft lay down strict rules on these things to make sure they aren't associated with under powered phones.

I think the problem there was the OS and how it allocated memory and processor resources. Caroline has the same issue with her 5800 where she can have nothing open yet it's out of memory. I've had (Nokia) phones where all I did was send text messages and play music and they were running out of memory. IMHO that's a Symbian issue.

Mark

11th May 2011, 12:24

Yes, I had it with my N97 and Karen had it with her phone - which is why she ditched it for an iPhone. It was/is a fundamental flaw in the OS design and unbelievable that they'd not only ship phones in that condition but they'd have the same problem on multiple models.

Daniel

11th May 2011, 12:38

Mark

11th May 2011, 18:33

Apart from the under specced processors and poor build quality of the likes of the N96.

Jag_Warrior

11th May 2011, 19:19

I have a BlackBerry 9800 and it has been brilliant. I'm not much of a nerd when it comes to the type of phone I have so I don't get what everyone is raving about with regards to the new iPhones etc. I've had over a dozen Nokia's and not one has ever given me trouble. The 9800 does have better features though and I am enjoying it immensly.

Just for interest sake:

Apple iPhone manufacture cost = $ 179
Retail price = $ 500
Profit = $ 321

Thats a rip off if ever there was one Apple!

RIM Blackberry Torch Slider manufacture cost = $183 (http://www.theberryfix.com/a-little-information-on-blackberry-torch-9800-building-costs)
Retail Price (MSRP) = $699.99 (http://www.mobilecityonline.com/wireless/store/productdetail.asp?productid=26461)
"Profit" = $516.99

According to this data, it looks like RIM is "ripping off" people worse than Apple. :D But with that said, I don't buy into the notion of "acceptable" profit levels on nonessential products.

The market determines value/fair price. If a product is (truly) "overpriced", then either it will not sell or it will not sell in sufficient enough numbers to justify its continued production. For years, Microsoft lost money on every Xbox unit that it sold. But I didn't hear any stories about consumers sending Microsoft checks to make up for that deficit. I believe the gaming division, and the associated devices, now make a profit. How much of a profit margin there is, I don't know. But again, especially when discussing nonessential products with an elastic demand, market demand quickly determines whether the product is overpriced or not. At least in the U.S., carriers get the phones at a discount from the MSRP and then sell them at a subsidized price. So if AT&T is selling the iPhone 4 for more than the Blackberry Torch (I don't know if they are or not), then it's because customer demand for the iPhone outstrips that for the Torch... because the data seems to suggest that the iPhone is cheaper to produce and also sells for less (at retail) than the Torch.

Jag_Warrior

11th May 2011, 19:38

No one finds that just a tiny bit interesting?

Yep, I think it's pretty interesting.

I got a chance to read a few stories about the Microsoft/Skype deal last night. Most seem to think that this was a "must do" strategic move by Microsoft to counter Google and Facebook. It's difficult to see how Microsoft will make its money back on the deal, as the price paid was "rich", to say the least. Skype was set to do an IPO, and if I remember correctly, the involved investment banks had valued the company at around $3.5 billion. Google and Facebook seemed to have had an interest in acquiring it for around that price (3-4 billion) too. But Microsoft swooped in and paid what looks like a 100%+ premium to the assumed fair market value... and thus far, the market has given the deal a thumbs down (on the financials alone). From when the deal was announced through today's trading, MSFT is down more than the overall market.

On the flipside, some analysts are saying that it was more important for MSFT (longer term) to keep Skype away from Google or Facbook, even if they can't get the money losing Skype back to profitability, or they can't justify the price based on Skype's future performance. So Skype is a knife that Microsoft may not be able to make the best use of, but in the hands of Google or Facebook, it might have been used to stab them in the heart.

Daniel

11th May 2011, 20:03

Yep, I think it's pretty interesting.

I got a chance to read a few stories about the Microsoft/Skype deal last night. Most seem to think that this was a "must do" strategic move by Microsoft to counter Google and Facebook. It's difficult to see how Microsoft will make its money back on the deal, as the price paid was "rich", to say the least. Skype was set to do an IPO, and if I remember correctly, the involved investment banks had valued the company at around $3.5 billion. Google and Facebook seemed to have had an interest in acquiring it for around that price (3-4 billion) too. But Microsoft swooped in and paid what looks like a 100%+ premium to the assumed fair market value... and thus far, the market has given the deal a thumbs down (on the financials alone). From when the deal was announced through today's trading, MSFT is down more than the overall market.

On the flipside, some analysts are saying that it was more important for MSFT (longer term) to keep Skype away from Google or Facbook, even if they can't get the money losing Skype back to profitability, or they can't justify the price based on Skype's future performance. So Skype is a knife that Microsoft may not be able to make the best use of, but in the hands of Google or Facebook, it might have been used to stab them in the heart.

A lot of people are talking about the 2nd dot com bubble building up. Now of course the purchase of Skype was to block Google, but it's still a way out offer, but it's still a way out crazy valuation.

Have you seen how much Apple is worth these days? Mewonders how long this little golden age is going to last before the bubble gets popped. Lets just hope you've not put all your AAPL's in one basket :)

That's not a dig at Apple either, I just think that the bubble has been getting bigger for a long time and we all know what happens to bubbles :D

Jag_Warrior

11th May 2011, 20:35

A lot of people are talking about the 2nd dot com bubble building up. Now of course the purchase of Skype was to block Google, but it's still a way out offer, but it's still a way out crazy valuation.

Have you seen how much Apple is worth these days? Mewonders how long this little golden age is going to last before the bubble gets popped. Lets just hope you've not put all your AAPL's in one basket :)

That's not a dig at Apple either, I just think that the bubble has been getting bigger for a long time and we all know what happens to bubbles :D

I think you're right: a second dotcom bubble is forming. As for Apple, it trades at a (roughly) 16.5 P/E ratio. While Microsoft trades at somewhere around 10. But P/E's tend to be higher for companies with higher future earnings growth potential, and AAPL's earnings are growing faster than MSFT's. Google, for instance, trades at about a 19.5 P/E, while slower growing HP trades at about 10.5. The companies that boggle my mind are the ones like LinkedIn and Facebook, to name two. At a $50 billion valuation, Facebook's P/E ratio would be 125!!! See, that just makes no sense whatsoever to me.

BTW, using figures from the last fiscal year, if you valued AAPL with the same 10x sales/revenue valuation that apply to Microsoft's purchase of Skype, it would be priced at $650 per share! And if we used that same valuation for Microsoft, it would be priced at $625!

Daniel

11th May 2011, 21:16

I think you're right: a second dotcom bubble is forming. As for Apple, it trades at a (roughly) 16.5 P/E ratio. While Microsoft trades at somewhere around 10. But P/E's tend to be higher for companies with higher future earnings growth potential, and AAPL's earnings are growing faster than MSFT's. Google, for instance, trades at about a 19.5 P/E, while slower growing HP trades at about 10.5. The companies that boggle my mind are the ones like LinkedIn and Facebook, to name two. At a $50 billion valuation, Facebook's P/E ratio would be 125!!! See, that just makes no sense whatsoever to me.

BTW, using figures from the last fiscal year, if you valued AAPL with the same 10x sales/revenue valuation that apply to Microsoft's purchase of Skype, it would be priced at $650 per share! And if we used that same valuation for Microsoft, it would be priced at $625!

The thing about Apple is that Apple products are by and large, luxury products and their market sector is always getting invaded so they're constantly having to make a new product which no one else is perceived to match and I don't see that continuing on forever.

Mark

12th May 2011, 08:15

On the flipside, some analysts are saying that it was more important for MSFT (longer term) to keep Skype away from Google or Facebook, .

I think that's the key point here. Skype would have been a very good fit for facebook.

Daniel

12th May 2011, 08:16

I think that's the key point here. Skype would have been a very good fit for facebook.

People forget though that Microsoft owns a portion of Facebook :)

Mark

12th May 2011, 08:19

1.3% which of course of a company that size is substantial, but not something they are going to base business decisions upon.

Daniel

12th May 2011, 08:20

Ah, I just assumed it was more :D

Jag_Warrior

12th May 2011, 10:04

The thing about Apple is that Apple products are by and large, luxury products and their market sector is always getting invaded so they're constantly having to make a new product which no one else is perceived to match and I don't see that continuing on forever.

That is a concern. But I would put it more as, what happens to Apple's ability to put a spin on its products once Steve Jobs is either gone or unable to publicly "perform"? Jobs isn't so much a brilliant engineer (he doesn't even have an engineering degree), but he is a visionary. And he also has the ability to captivate an audience. Much like Donald Trump was in the late 80's, Jobs can make people believe that what he's about to offer is something that you really want to have... the price be damned. And yeah, that is a legitimate reason to criticize him. But if other CEO's had that ability, (Ballmer, for instance) they'd be able to launch products and find a successful path easier than they do. Michael Dell also had that charismatic ability. But then he dropped out of the game for awhile (too long) and the Dell brand sank like a rock. Do you remember about ten years ago when the slogan "Dude, I'm gettin' a Dell!!!" was on everybody's lips? It was a popular ad campaign here... I don't know about Europe. But that's what it's all about: making products that can support your brand. So I question whether Apple will be like Ferrari and Rolex: being able to maintain "the brand" for decades. As of 2010, the Apple brand was actually ranked higher than Ferrari and Rolex, so will they be able to stay near the top? Or will it be like Porsche: temporarily losing its way (assuming we don't count how Apple fell after Jobs left)? Or will it be like Dell, and just fall on hard times and not seem to know the way back? I'm not a marketing guy. But one thing I have learned is that once you allow your product to become ubiquitous or a commodity, it loses value in the eyes of consumers. That's why I could sell my 25 year old Mac Plus and still get some nice coin out of it. But I'd be hard pressed to give someone my 10 year old Windows 98 HP machine. It's like comparing a 25 year old Porsche to a 10 year old Chevy.

But anyway, I think we're living in very exciting times on the computing front. This intense competition is forcing these companies to work their butts off trying to out think and out do each other. And as an occasional purchaser of computing devices and a sorta/kinda geek, I'm loving it! If I live to see it, I think what we'll have in 5-10 years is going to make what we have now seem like the Stone Age.

People forget though that Microsoft owns a portion of Facebook :)

Yeah, but I think it's something like 1.5%+/-. And unless they've sold it, Microsoft also owns a portion of Apple - also a very small amount (less than $200 million, if memory serves me), but that investment came at a key time for Apple.

Daniel

12th May 2011, 10:22

It's difficult to say really.

By all logic Apple shouldn't be so successful right now with or without Jobs so speculating as to whether Apple will still be as successful when Jobs croaks it is very much hit and miss. Would I keep my money in Apple if I were an investor? I don't know, would I put money in after the inevitable drop in share price after he croaks? Dunno :)

Jag_Warrior

12th May 2011, 10:58

Daniel

12th May 2011, 11:26

Fair questions.^^^

Without Jobs, will the Apple brand be degraded? And if so, how much? Will it become more of a commodity computer producer, like HP, Acer and Dell? Will AAPL begin trading at a 10 multiple instead of a 16? Open questions that only time can answer, I suppose. I've had a rather amazing ride with AAPL thus far, but when it's time to sell, I'll sell. I have no emotional attachment to stocks or companies when it comes to investing. Years ago, I shorted CART (MPH) as it began to swirl down, and I loved that racing series.

It's all very hit and miss. Things are on a knife edge. If the iPhone hadn't been a runaway success despite missing things like a camera and 3g which almost all other phones at the time had, then I think Apple would be down in the dumps now.

Buying an Apple product somehow seems to empower people to be able to hold it up in the air and say "This is the best <whatver> that I could buy!" even if it's missing quite crucial features that other phones have. That is of course the reason why Apple products have been so successful.

That said I think there are a lot of owners of Apple products who aren't so easily fooled. A friend on Facebook has an iPod, an iPad and iPhone but he will not buy a Mac because he's intelligent enough to know that it's just a fancy looking PC. He's a web designer too and considering his Apple purchases, you'd think he was a prime candidate for a Mac. He posted a status update on facebook saying his homebuilt PC had died and that he'd fixed it and someone started preaching about how Mac's never crashed :laugh: He's very christian so there was no swearing but for an Apple fan he did slag Mac's off :D

555-04Q2

12th May 2011, 13:29

RIM Blackberry Torch Slider manufacture cost = $183 (http://www.theberryfix.com/a-little-information-on-blackberry-torch-9800-building-costs)
Retail Price (MSRP) = $699.99 (http://www.mobilecityonline.com/wireless/store/productdetail.asp?productid=26461)
"Profit" = $516.99

According to this data, it looks like RIM is "ripping off" people worse than Apple. :D But with that said, I don't buy into the notion of "acceptable" profit levels on nonessential products.

The market determines value/fair price. If a product is (truly) "overpriced", then either it will not sell or it will not sell in sufficient enough numbers to justify its continued production. For years, Microsoft lost money on every Xbox unit that it sold. But I didn't hear any stories about consumers sending Microsoft checks to make up for that deficit. I believe the gaming division, and the associated devices, now make a profit. How much of a profit margin there is, I don't know. But again, especially when discussing nonessential products with an elastic demand, market demand quickly determines whether the product is overpriced or not. At least in the U.S., carriers get the phones at a discount from the MSRP and then sell them at a subsidized price. So if AT&T is selling the iPhone 4 for more than the Blackberry Torch (I don't know if they are or not), then it's because customer demand for the iPhone outstrips that for the Torch... because the data seems to suggest that the iPhone is cheaper to produce and also sells for less (at retail) than the Torch.

Lucky for me then that I get my phones for free :) I have never had to pay for a phone, I have a choice of any phone I want from my cell company every 18 months at no charge!

Daniel

12th May 2011, 13:31

Lucky for me then that I get my phones for free :) I have never had to pay for a phone, I have a choice of any phone I want from my cell company every 18 months at no charge!

You pay for it with your tarrif though.

555-04Q2

12th May 2011, 13:36

You pay for it with your tarrif though.

Nope. I have a 16 year history with my service provider (and the same phone number for those 16 years) so I pay a lot less than the average Joe does for calls, and I get phones for free. 16 years of loyalty to them pays off slightly.

Mark

12th May 2011, 14:15

Less than you would with a SIM-only contract?

555-04Q2

12th May 2011, 14:19

Yes. I pay about 40% of what the average person is charged.

Mark

12th May 2011, 14:20

No I mean if YOU were to be on a SIM-only contract.

555-04Q2

12th May 2011, 14:31

Excuse my ignorance, but I aint getting what ya mean :( :p :

Mark

12th May 2011, 14:44

You go to the phone company and say "Hi it's 555-04Q2, you're bestest ever customer. Listen, I don't want a new phone this time around, let me keep my old phone and give me a cheaper rate".

Certainly with phone companies in the UK you can get a significantly cheaper airtime contract (often half the price) if you don't have a handset with it.

555-04Q2

12th May 2011, 14:52

Now why didn't you just say that in the first place :p :

No, I cannot get a cheaper rate, even if I keep the old phone, as I already have the lowest rate possible. They have been threatening to up my rates for the last few years, but I have countered their threats by saying I will cancel the 30 odd company contracts I have with them if they try and pull that sh!t with me :p :

Jag_Warrior

12th May 2011, 20:24

It's all very hit and miss. Things are on a knife edge. If the iPhone hadn't been a runaway success despite missing things like a camera and 3g which almost all other phones at the time had, then I think Apple would be down in the dumps now.

Every success or failure has a "what if" or "if only" somewhere in the story. The very same would be true of Microsoft had Apple chosen a more open strategy in the late 80's and early 90's. At best, Microsoft would probably be nothing more than a bit player in the OEM software market now. But MSFT's OS strategy proved to be the more successful of the two and so it remains the dominant player. Microsoft laughed off the iPhone (more than once) and saw it go on to revolutionize the smartphone market. Now they find themselves years behind iOS and Andorid in smartphones and tablets. The RIM Blackberry had been the dominant smartphone platform here, and now it's hanging on for dear life. "What if" and "if only"...

Buying an Apple product somehow seems to empower people to be able to hold it up in the air and say "This is the best <whatver> that I could buy!" even if it's missing quite crucial features that other phones have. That is of course the reason why Apple products have been so successful.

I think that's oversimplifying things a bit. While some people do buy Apple products primarily because of the brand name (successful marketing adds to success), others buy because you tend to know what you're getting with an Apple product. And the engineering and build quality always tends to be quite high. But with that said, there is no such thing as a defect free manufacturing process. It simply does not exist. It's just that certain brands (Apple being one of them, Lexus being another) have reputations for delivering products with very low defect rates.

That said I think there are a lot of owners of Apple products who aren't so easily fooled. A friend on Facebook has an iPod, an iPad and iPhone but he will not buy a Mac because he's intelligent enough to know that it's just a fancy looking PC. He's a web designer too and considering his Apple purchases, you'd think he was a prime candidate for a Mac. He posted a status update on facebook saying his homebuilt PC had died and that he'd fixed it and someone started preaching about how Mac's never crashed :laugh: He's very christian so there was no swearing but for an Apple fan he did slag Mac's off :D

I'm really not sure that there are very many people who expect the Mac to provide a "magical" experience. I think that's something that Mac critics tend to impart on Mac owners by way of hyperbole. It's a computer. To someone like me, that just makes it a tool to perform necessary and recreational functions. I'm sure a cheap Taiwanese wrench will do the same thing that my Proto wrench will do... for a LOT less (until it snaps in half). But I buy Protos. My uncle's new brother-in-law is a retired software executive. His former company designed and built software for a great many platforms and applications. He builds his own computers and probably works in Linux more than he does anything else. All of his home built and purchased computers (as far as I know) run Mac OS, as well as Linux and Windows. He offered to build a Hackintosh Mac for me, but I'm opting to go for a company model. I have no idea what your friend uses his computers for. So his needs and uses may be a world away from mine. But if he's happy with whatever it is that he has, then he should keep it. I just don't have the time or desire to tweak and play with settings and components. A comparable Sony model (with Windows 7) to what I'm looking at is right around $4 grand. So I'm going for the MacBook Pro, which will run Windows and Linux, in addition to Linux.

One has to be careful to weigh the facts, and not get caught up in anecdotals and predisposed notions if one is going to make a truly informed purchase.

Lucky for me then that I get my phones for free :) I have never had to pay for a phone, I have a choice of any phone I want from my cell company every 18 months at no charge!

That's cool. But that's hardly the experience of the average phone purchaser, is it? So going back to your point about profit margins, Apple and RIM don't seem to be taking wildly different approaches. It's just that the iPhone's price, as sold by carriers, is higher due to a higher customer demand versus the various Blackberrry phones. One of the reasons that RIM's stock is under pressure now is because they are having problems maintaining their profit margins.

Daniel

12th May 2011, 21:01

Every success or failure has a "what if" or "if only" somewhere in the story. The very same would be true of Microsoft had Apple chosen a more open strategy in the late 80's and early 90's. At best, Microsoft would probably be nothing more than a bit player in the OEM software market now. But MSFT's OS strategy proved to be the more successful of the two and so it remains the dominant player. Microsoft laughed off the iPhone (more than once) and saw it go on to revolutionize the smartphone market. Now they find themselves years behind iOS and Andorid in smartphones and tablets. The RIM Blackberry had been the dominant smartphone platform here, and now it's hanging on for dear life. "What if" and "if only"...

RIM is hardly holding on for dear life ;) They've still got the business market and they've also got BBM which is hugely popular with the teen market due to the fact that it's free.

I think that's oversimplifying things a bit. While some people do buy Apple products primarily because of the brand name (successful marketing adds to success), others buy because you tend to know what you're getting with an Apple product. And the engineering and build quality always tends to be quite high. But with that said, there is no such thing as a defect free manufacturing process. It simply does not exist. It's just that certain brands (Apple being one of them, Lexus being another) have reputations for delivering products with very low defect rates.

Of course, but you generally don't see Lexus owners blogging about how freaking great their Lexus is, or telling people "oh my you've got to get a lexus! They're perfect!" when someone mentions that their Honda has broken down. You have to admit that there is a vocal population of Mac users who are almost religious about it all ;)

I'm really not sure that there are very many people who expect the Mac to provide a "magical" experience. I think that's something that Mac critics tend to impart on Mac owners by way of hyperbole. It's a computer. To someone like me, that just makes it a tool to perform necessary and recreational functions. I'm sure a cheap Taiwanese wrench will do the same thing that my Proto wrench will do... for a LOT less (until it snaps in half). But I buy Protos. My uncle's new brother-in-law is a retired software executive. His former company designed and built software for a great many platforms and applications. He builds his own computers and probably works in Linux more than he does anything else. All of his home built and purchased computers (as far as I know) run Mac OS, as well as Linux and Windows. He offered to build a Hackintosh Mac for me, but I'm opting to go for a company model. I have no idea what your friend uses his computers for. So his needs and uses may be a world away from mine. But if he's happy with whatever it is that he has, then he should keep it. I just don't have the time or desire to tweak and play with settings and components. A comparable Sony model (with Windows 7) to what I'm looking at is right around $4 grand. So I'm going for the MacBook Pro, which will run Windows and Linux, in addition to Linux.

One has to be careful to weigh the facts, and not get caught up in anecdotals and predisposed notions if one is going to make a truly informed purchase.

I'll tell you what, next time you're in the market for a new desktop Mac, give me a yell via PM and I wil spec you up something ridiculously good for quite a significant amount less than a Mac. I won't spec you a Rolls Royce, I'll spec you a freaking Bugatti Veyron and your buddy can build it and do the whole hackintosh thing. It will make a Mac look pedestrian and it'll run OSX like nobody's business :)

My main problem with Mac's has always been the bang for your buck ratio. If I accept that they're better than PC's (I don't! but for the sake of the argument I will) then you could just build a PC with quicker bits and it'll be quicker :) Or if you really want OSX you could do a hackintosh build and have the best of both worlds.

rah

13th May 2011, 00:19

It's all very hit and miss. Things are on a knife edge. If the iPhone hadn't been a runaway success despite missing things like a camera and 3g which almost all other phones at the time had, then I think Apple would be down in the dumps now.

Buying an Apple product somehow seems to empower people to be able to hold it up in the air and say "This is the best <whatver> that I could buy!" even if it's missing quite crucial features that other phones have. That is of course the reason why Apple products have been so successful.

That said I think there are a lot of owners of Apple products who aren't so easily fooled. A friend on Facebook has an iPod, an iPad and iPhone but he will not buy a Mac because he's intelligent enough to know that it's just a fancy looking PC. He's a web designer too and considering his Apple purchases, you'd think he was a prime candidate for a Mac. He posted a status update on facebook saying his homebuilt PC had died and that he'd fixed it and someone started preaching about how Mac's never crashed :laugh: He's very christian so there was no swearing but for an Apple fan he did slag Mac's off :D

Actually Apple salvation came with the iPod. They were looking into the abiss before that. The iPhone helped them boom after that. But the marketing is great and relentless. Their failure rate must have jumped a lot since they started using off the shelf components but I still see people saying that apple products dont break down.

I am in my 3rd year at TAFE for photography and the vast majority of people use macs. From teachers to students and the equipment in the studios. At least 1 or 2 will always have something being fixed or tying to get fixed by apple, but they are all saying how good the product is even though they are getting screwed by Apple tech support.

I am looking at replacing my current PC at home, and this will be with another PC because I can get more for my dollar. I can get what I want in a PC for around $1700 or I could downgrade and get a mac for around $2300.

Daniel

13th May 2011, 00:29

1700 Will get you something really nice if that doesn't include the monitor. What specs you aiming for?

rah

13th May 2011, 01:52

1700 Will get you something really nice if that doesn't include the monitor. What specs you aiming for?
Just the box. Need a better monitor later on for photo work.

This is most of it. I will probably change the two ATI's for a single GTX580. I might also change the SSD to a Crucial M4.
CPU: Intel Core i5 2500K
Mobo: Asrock P67 Extreme4 B3
RAM: Kingston 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1333
SSD: Corsair Force Series 60GB
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Green 2TB
GPU: 2GB AMD Radeon HD6950
GPU: 2GB AMD Radeon HD6950
Case: Silverstone Raven RV02-E
PSU: Silverstone Strider Plus ST75F-P 750W
ODD: LiteOn DVD burner
CPU HSF: Coolermaster Universal Hyper 212+

GridGirl

13th May 2011, 07:10

Whoever puts the deals on the Orange website messed up last week. Two of our friends managed to get 32GB iPhone 4's in white on 18 month contracts paying £21 per month after their friends and family discount was taken from the £25 per month tariff. Price of the iPhone....just the £3.99 delivery charge. The same iPhone 4 in black was left at full price but was ironically out of stock anyway so you automatically would have checked the stock status of the white version on the tarrif. Sadly the website mix up had been rectified by Monday. Jammy gits.

Daniel

13th May 2011, 08:13

Just the box. Need a better monitor later on for photo work.

This is most of it. I will probably change the two ATI's for a single GTX580. I might also change the SSD to a Crucial M4.
CPU: Intel Core i5 2500K
Mobo: Asrock P67 Extreme4 B3
RAM: Kingston 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1333
SSD: Corsair Force Series 60GB
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Green 2TB
GPU: 2GB AMD Radeon HD6950
GPU: 2GB AMD Radeon HD6950
Case: Silverstone Raven RV02-E
PSU: Silverstone Strider Plus ST75F-P 750W
ODD: LiteOn DVD burner
CPU HSF: Coolermaster Universal Hyper 212+

Nice. I've got a Core i5-2500k and it scoots along. No SSD as yet though so that's holding it back massively.

Mark

13th May 2011, 09:27

Daniel

13th May 2011, 15:31

http://www.neowin.net/news/apple-supplies-non-replaceable-hard-drives-in-2011-imacs

Apple are not putting hard drives with custom firmware which are HARDWIRED to the motherboard into their iMac's. I think this move is going to cost them a lot of enthusiast sales.

Daniel

13th May 2011, 15:35

Stolen from elsewhere

No, you don't throw it away. There are supposedly millions of people on places like ebay that are eager to buy used Macs, and they have a great resale value. At least that is we we are told. When you buy a Mac, apparently you buy it to turn around and sell it in a few months.

Apple's upgrade policy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/sjc001/n655291751_142925_6098.jpg

:D

Jag_Warrior

14th May 2011, 22:25

RIM is hardly holding on for dear life ;) They've still got the business market and they've also got BBM which is hugely popular with the teen market due to the fact that it's free.

If they're not holding on for dear life, how do you explain the precipitous drop in RIM's marketshare (including the corporate enterprise market) and stock price over the past 18 months? I'm not slagging on RIM, but the company has some very serious issues facing it.

Of course, but you generally don't see Lexus owners blogging about how freaking great their Lexus is, or telling people "oh my you've got to get a lexus! They're perfect!" when someone mentions that their Honda has broken down. You have to admit that there is a vocal population of Mac users who are almost religious about it all ;)

I have. But then again, I go to a lot more car boards than I do computer oriented boards. One of the more famous Lexus devotees is one of Charlie Sheen's "goddesses": Rachel Oberlin/Bree Olson. Until she wrecked it, she was making appearances on a Lexus board, going on & on about how great her 250 was. Most car brands have the same: Jags, Ferraris, Mercedes and don't even get me started on Porsche and BMW boards. And here in the States, Honda owners are some of the most obnoxious when it comes to tuner boards. I used to post a lot on a WRX/STI board and we were always at war with the Evo people.

As we've established, Apple is one of the most prominent brands (the most valuable, by a recent study) on the planet. So of course it has followers. Sony used to... Dell used to. Building a popular brand is why companies sponsor motorsports, TV shows and any number of other things: to build a loyal following.

In bouncing around the net, one can easily see that the Mac vs. PC thing is no different than the Chevy vs. Ford or whatever brand vs. some other brand in the car market: one set of fanboys talking smack to another set of fanboys. I just tell people to buy what they need/want and try to be happy with their purchase.

I'll tell you what, next time you're in the market for a new desktop Mac, give me a yell via PM and I wil spec you up something ridiculously good for quite a significant amount less than a Mac. I won't spec you a Rolls Royce, I'll spec you a freaking Bugatti Veyron and your buddy can build it and do the whole hackintosh thing. It will make a Mac look pedestrian and it'll run OSX like nobody's business :)

My main problem with Mac's has always been the bang for your buck ratio. If I accept that they're better than PC's (I don't! but for the sake of the argument I will) then you could just build a PC with quicker bits and it'll be quicker :) Or if you really want OSX you could do a hackintosh build and have the best of both worlds.

I appreciate that, Daniel. But as I've mentioned before, I'll customize cars to my liking. But my interest in computers does not extend to me getting (another) custom built machine that I have to take in for repairs and tweak every few months. Been there, done that. If they don't work then they're either costing me money or preventing me from making money. I'm moving away from desktops (when the ones I have die, they won't be replaced with other desktops), so no hybrid Hackintoshes here. I'm getting the MacBook Pro, and other than maybe dropping some extra RAM in it, it'll be a BTO that'll have all that I want/need. :)

Mark

15th May 2011, 10:01

It is starting to look like Blackberry is the one being left behind in the smartphone wars. With iOS, Android and Windows being app development priorities in that order.

Blackberry had the advantage due to their handling of email but other phones do that too now, so they've lost their USP.

Daniel

15th May 2011, 12:10

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/06/idc-smartphone-market-grows-80-percent-year-on-year-samsung-sh/

RIM's sales are up 30% from Q1 2010 to q1 2011. Sure their marketshare is dowm, but it's not such a bad thing when you're selling 30% more product than you were a year ago.

http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUK22816311 Marketshare and sales in europe are up for RIM.

RIM has a fairly captive audience with BBM, teens love BBM as they can message each other to their hearts content for free.
http://us.blackberry.com/apps-software/blackberrymessenger/

The integration of other phones with exchange still isn't as good as blackberry so they still have that same advantage, the only difference is that more people are buying smartphones for personal use and exchange integration usually isn't a buying consideration.

Jag_Warrior

15th May 2011, 19:30

By that link, I'd say that RIM's problem (one of them) is that the smartphone market is growing at around 80% year over year, but RIM's sales were only up 30%. On April 28, after an earnings guidance call, the stock fell 11% to around $50/share - a six month low. On May 13, the stock was trading down another 13%, at $43.14 (just above its 52 week low). The issue there is that the management came out and lowered earnings expectations just a month after providing higher guidance. It looks like more of the phones that were sold were at lower average selling prices than had been the case previously... so analysts are getting the feeling that the management of RIM either isn't being honest about their situation or they don't truly know what their situation is. Because management is doing such a bad job of guiding earnings expectations and giving press releases, it's contributing to the stock being discounted vs. earnings. So it's been marked down to a 6.8 P/E ratio, which is EXTREMELY low for a tech company.

There's also some kind of story on Google News about a recall that's been issued by RIM for the new Playbook. I haven't had time to read that yet, so I don't know what it's about. But I do know that analysts are anxious to know what the true sales numbers are for the new tablet. The Playbook, and its associated OS, is a very important product in RIM's future. If the sales don't meet expectations, or they try to use fuzzy math to express sales (as Samsung did with its tablet and Microsoft appears to be doing with the Windows Phone 7), then I expect RIM to take another hit after the May 28 earnings announcement - probably down to the mid $30's. If they exceed expectations, then the stock should recover. But we'll have to wait and see.

Daniel

15th May 2011, 20:23

Jag_Warrior

15th May 2011, 21:14

Yeah, I agree that you can't JUST look at the stock price in judging how a company is doing. But when a company's fundamentals are in question (losing marketshare, shrinking profit margins, new products not being as well received as they should be, etc.), and that's what is affecting the stock price, that suggests that there are some deeper issues at play.

That's one thing that I find fascinating about the tech sector: the landscape is littered with companies that at one time were the cat's meow. But then they took their eye off the ball (just for a bit) and they soon found themselves on a slippery slope. In tech, it seems like that can happen faster than in most other industries. Look how fast Nokia has fallen on hard times. I'm not saying that RIM can't/won't recover. But for the past 2-3 years, they've been a day late and a dollar short more than a few times. If the Playbook proves to be a flop or can't break out of its lukewarm reception, and their new OS doesn't catch on, I think RIM is going to have some major problems going forward. The pressure from Android, iOS and even WP7 is going to put more pressure on the company.

16th May 2011, 07:00

Is it only me or does anyone else think this looks like a small laptop without a cover?

Mark

16th May 2011, 10:06

I've posted it before but it bears repeating. That now it's all about the apps. Ease of use and features are still important but mobile OS's just as with desktop ones now live and die by the available software.

i.e. The reason Windows dominates the desktop market is that it's got all the software written for it.

At the moment app developers are targeting iOS and Android, and a bit of WP7. Blackberry, not so much, it leads very quickly to a downward spiral. Less apps = less market share = less apps being made = less market share etc..

Daniel

16th May 2011, 10:33

I've posted it before but it bears repeating. That now it's all about the apps. Ease of use and features are still important but mobile OS's just as with desktop ones now live and die by the available software.

Is it though? I suspect a good portion of users will either never install apps, or will only use a few. Blackberry's mainly being for business use will probably have users who are not allowed to install Apps anyway. If you're aware of government standards for security, currently only blackberry meet those security standards for mobile devices.

Mark

16th May 2011, 14:15

Daniel

16th May 2011, 15:55

Sure, there will be those like Blackberry users who have a specific task and that's it. And of course those who just want a phone and nothing else - but they don't form part of the smartphone market anyway.

Would you buy a smartphone if you didn't care about installing apps? I guess people do, but they are a bit odd if you ask me :p

I think you're ignoring the fact that smartphones are inherently good for web access. 99% of the use of my phone is texting, making calls or web access. No apps required! You're blind if you think that everyone who buys a smartphone does so because of apps or needs apps.

Daniel

16th May 2011, 16:12

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/16/eldar-murtazin-microsoft-will-enter-negotiations-to-buy-nokias

I somehow doubt this is true tbh, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Daniel

17th May 2011, 19:45

Of course it isn't the case for everyone with a smartphone. My wife's uncle who is in his late 60's has an iphone 4 which he bought because he heard it was a good phone. Has can just about get it to make a call and sends the odd text, so he hardly uses the phone to its full potential. With these people aside its still clear that the majority of people who purchase a smartphone also download apps as its become an integral part of phones over the past 4 years or so. I must admit there are several apps I use almost daily and I'm abit of a sucker when new ones come out. I tend to download loads of free ones and usually delete again within minutes, and buy the odd one.

The free messengers like PingChat and Liveprofile are something I use an awful lot when goofing around with friends when I probably should be working lol. Blackberry had BBM as their unique selling point until fairly recently, but with the apps market growing by the day, this sort of free service is no longer unique to them. Most messengers now also seem to cover the three main services iOS, Android, and Blackberry which is more appealing than a one system messenger.

BBM is free to use though, those messaging apps aren't if you're using them on 3g or am I wrong?

The other thing is BBM is an integrated part of the Blackberry OS, add on apps are never as good as something which is inbuilt.

Also as pointed out, Blackberry's are secure, hence why Obama has a Blackberry and not an iPhone, Android handset or a WP7 handset. It's the only sane choice for business.

Mark

17th May 2011, 19:54

Part of your 3G data package, non?

Jag_Warrior

17th May 2011, 20:29

As for security, yes, the Blackberry is one of the most secure platforms available. But from another site:

Moving onto security and remote management, big brother stuff and sweet encryption (except in the Middle East) that owning a Blackberry Enterprise Server affords your company’s IT department and management, that’s being chipped away dramatically by Apple, Microsoft and Google. Their recent phones and complementary back-ends of various forms now have impressive company-friendly security, noteworthy near-1984-level management, not quite at parity with a BES rig but for many companies, close enough.

Here’s what you can do with the latest Androids, iPhones, iPads and Microsoft phones (including Windows Mobile):

Encrypt data remotely. Password policy management including strength, password changing frequency, prompt a change on a whim etc. Lock down the device. Lock down the camera, no syncing when roaming, reset passwords and remotely wipe. Actually I believe you get that with an Exchange server too.

And this:

Pending completion of the acquisition, Ubitexx’s ubi-Suite software for device management will be integrated with the management and security controls of BlackBerry Enterprise Server and BlackBerry Enterprise Server Express. This will support Android and iOS devices and tablets. This is in response to demand from enterprise customers for multi-platform support for BES.

And of course, the recent news that the U.S. Army chose the Android OS for its Joint Battle Command Platform, which will go in the hands of soldiers in the field.

Just from where I sit in the Peanut gallery, it looks like RIM is relying on past successes and customer loyalty to keep it moving. But customers aren't all that loyal to begin with, and even when they are, if your products are having problems matching the capabilities of other products, they'll leave you. Even in enterprise, that appears to be what's happening to RIM - especially as an increasing number of companies allow employees to choose which phone they WANT to use (not which ones they HAVE to use). And increasingly, those employees are choosing iPhones and Android powered phones.

Daniel

17th May 2011, 22:17

As for security, yes, the Blackberry is one of the most secure platforms available. But from another site:

And this:

And of course, the recent news that the U.S. Army chose the Android OS for its Joint Battle Command Platform, which will go in the hands of soldiers in the field.

Just from where I sit in the Peanut gallery, it looks like RIM is relying on past successes and customer loyalty to keep it moving. But customers aren't all that loyal to begin with, and even when they are, if your products are having problems matching the capabilities of other products, they'll leave you. Even in enterprise, that appears to be what's happening to RIM - especially as an increasing number of companies allow employees to choose which phone they WANT to use (not which ones they HAVE to use). And increasingly, those employees are choosing iPhones and Android powered phones.

But security is the sort of thing where people will always want the best. There's a reason why Obama has a Blackberry and not an iPhone or anything else. Honestly, I'm not a fan of blackberry's as I think they're very poorly built, but there's a reason they're so popular with businesses and whilst the competitors are better than before, they're still nowhere near being close.