Mobile phones & tablets thread [Archive] - Page 7

CaptainRaiden

22nd June 2012, 11:06

That, quite simply, is a function of the free market. Products (with an elastic demand) are sold for the highest possible price, until demand is affected. The purpose of a publicly traded corporation is to enhance shareholder value - and that's it. So if Samsung could sell their phones and other devices for more than they currently are, they'd do that. If they didn't, then they wouldn't be serving their shareholders, as they should. Their current price points reflect demand, not some desire to give consumers a break. Corporations are not that altruistic.

So, what Apple essentially is, is a fancy premium brand for people who don't really care what's inside their computer as long as it works.

Depending on which test you look at, the Ferrari 458 is marginally faster than the Corvette Z06 in the quarter mile (4-5 tenths in most tests) and about 4 mph faster in top speed. I haven't seen tests where both cars have run on the same road course, so I don't know which is faster there, but yes, I would assume the 458 is faster. But if one wants a true road burner for MUCH less money than the Ferrari 458 (has a higher top speed than the 458, is faster 0-60 and equals or bests it in stopping distance 60-0), he can buy a Corvette ZR1 for half the price of the Ferrari, still buy a Z06... and buy a very nice family car and still have enough left over for a nice dinner at Ruth's Chris steak house. So, here again, I don't find it so difficult to find cars that can easily equal or better the Ferrari 458 in performance... but they don't have that Ferrari badge (or price premium). You're paying for that prancing horse badge. It's a great car, but that badge carries a hefty premium once relative, objective performance parameters are considered. And if I was in the market and had a choice, I would take the Ferrari. Why? That badge, man. We all want that badge in our driveway.

To be honest, I don't really care about the badge or simply can't afford to :p and I'm sure I'm in the minority here. You can get all your adrenaline fix and break your neck with the much cheaper Nissan GTR. But then again, just like Apple, people (millionaires to be precise) will buy a Ferrari, because people don't wanna lose face in society, which is pretty much expected behavior I guess.

As far as the Corvette vs Ferrari comparison, aren't most of the Corvettes made out of plastic? It was only recently with the ZR1 that they went the aluminum-carbon fiber route. At least with Ferrari, you don't have to worry about that as they've long been made entirely out of carbon fiber. So, when you buy a Ferrari, you get the marquee name (I don't see Corvette or Chevrolet being a big name in racing, and so what Ferrari is essentially charging you for is to fund their F1 program :p ), + you get "slightly" better performance + the assurance that you'll probably be alive in case of an accident.

So, there are pluses.

The only plus point in Apple's favor is convenience, which I find ridiculous, but it's just my opinion.

But then again, I'm not arguing that the Samsung phones or Android, as an OS, aren't good choices for many people. If they weren't, then I assume that people wouldn't be buying them. I'm a great believer in the free market. Demand, not bench racing scores, determine the success or failure of most consumer products. I might go to a smartphone later this year. But currently I use an ancient (10 year old) Motorola flip phone. It does what I need it to do: make calls. But if I go to a smartphone, I'll likely have to exclude any Android offerings because I'm not convinced of the security on the platform. When it comes to tablets, two of the companies that I do work for do not allow Android devices on their networks - so buying an Android tablet would be a waste for me. The security concerns are enough to discourage me. But as most people probably use their smartphones and tablets to mainly post to Facebook and Twitter, watch YouTube vids, send text messages, check the weather or traffic or play Angry Birds, that might not be as much of a concern. If it works for them, then I think that's great. It's not my job to convince them otherwise, because of any personal biases that I might have.

What I've found in life is that people tend to get what they deserve - for better or worse. In my opinion, Apple deserves whatever it can get, as does Ferrari, Gucci, Rolex or whomever. ;)

So, you have actually not gotten around to using smartphones yet. Do me a favor and use Galaxy S2 and iPhone 4S with an unbiased view, and tell me why Apple deserves the extra $150.

No doubt, Apple products are considered trouble-free by some. But hey, you go clicking on naughtykitty.biz or on an ad that says "You've won the lottery", I don't care if it's OS X Pantelionepard, your computer WILL get infected.

I saw a Macbook Air on sale a couple of days ago:
Older generation (Nehalem architecture) - 2.3 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 processor
4GB DDR3 RAM; 500 GB Hard Drive
15.4 inch LED-backlit display, 1440-by-900 resolution
NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 512MB Graphics
Mac OS X v10.7 Lion, 7 Hour Battery Life
Price: $1794

I also saw a Dell XPS at the same shop:
Newer Generation (Sandy Bridge Architecture) Intel Core i7 2640M Processor 2.8GHz
6GB DIMM RAM; 750GB 7200RPM Hard Drive
15.6-Inch Screen, 1400X900 resolution
NVIDIA GeForce GT 525M - 1 GB Graphics
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Price: $959.99

Please tell me why, for inferior hardware, the Macbook deserves the extra $800. Thanks. :)

CaptainRaiden

22nd June 2012, 12:05

At risk of sounding like a broken record, its not just about the hardware with Apple products but the opperating system which is a joy to use in comparison to windows. I don't hack, I don't programme so having this freedom doesn't appeal to me personally, for those who do, then great. Apple computers look nicer than Dell computers and to some people that is part of the appeal. My Casio watch does exactly the same thing, if not more than my expensive Tag Heuer but I know which one gets more comments. It might sound vain but I'm not particularly bothered about that. I have a Dell laptop (with a hard drive failure after 6 months I might add) but if I had the spare cash I'd buy a MacBook Pro. You don't sound like you really need to be convinced CaptainRaiden to be honest, so why not just stick to what you like and be safe in your own mind you are getting the better deal? ;)

:laugh:

$800 extra "spare cash" for operating system (which by the way has much, much lesser applications than Windows) and looks?? :eek:

I really don't understand how people have hard drive failures when mine's been running fine for 3 years. Just throw it out of the balcony lesser. :p

You didn't just use Casio vs Tag Heuer analogy to explain the difference between PC and Mac! Oh my....

I'm not here to be convinced about anything. I am already convinced Apple products are a load of trash.

What I'm trying to understand, in a discussion forum, is how Apple charging $200, $400 or $800 extra for inferior hardware can be justified.

So far, nobody is really able to explain it with an answer that makes at least a little bit of sense.

pino

22nd June 2012, 14:04

Mark

22nd June 2012, 16:06

Dell laptops all have hard drive failures - the Dell repair dude has his own desk here (no joke!), the hard drive has failed on every single laptop we have here.

Dave B

22nd June 2012, 16:27

In almost every laptop it's relatively easy for the end user to replace parts, be it for failures or upgrades. The exception is Apple who insist on making their products virtually impossible to work on. You can't even replace the battery in an iPhone, for goodness sake!

I'm not sure what's causing the Dell HDD failures (I'm typing this on a three year old Dell laptop which works perfectly well) but at least it's a 2 minute job to change the drive if and when it goes. Try that on a Macbook!

iFixit Tears Down The MacBook Pro With Retina Display, Deems It Nearly Impossible To Repair | TechCrunch (http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/13/ifixit-tears-down-the-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-deems-it-nearly-impossible-to-repair/)

I upgraded the RAM in this machine for about £15 and five minutes of my time - again you can't do that on most Apple kit and they charge crazy money for memory upgrades in their products. I can't agree with some that it's "inferior hardware": it's not, in most cases their computers use the same components as bog-standard Windows PC but in a nicer box. And yes the OS is slick if a little "Fisher Price", but certainly not worth the crazy mark-ups Apple charge.

CaptainRaiden

22nd June 2012, 16:58

Dear Captain, dunno in your country but where I live at the moment (Danmark) 8 people out of 10 have an iPhone...there must be a reason don't you think?

One of my colleague's kid is studying in the UK right now and working part time on a 800 pounds a month salary. He recently bought an iPhone 4s on a 35 pound monthly contract from 3 UK. When asked why he bought it, he said because almost all of his classmates have one. Up until a month ago, he didn't know he could record HD videos on his iPhone.

Another friend of mine (she currently has a Nokia Lumia 800 because her kid broke her iPhone 4) wanted to buy a digital camera to take pictures at her kid's baptism ceremony. She thinks of me as some techy guy, and so asked me to suggest some digital cameras. I told her she doesn't really need to buy one as her phone has an 8 megapixel camera. To which she replied, "It does??!?"

Another guy I know, has an iMac, Macbook Air, iPad 2, iPhone 4S and the new iPad. Does he work? No. He's the son of a filthy rich evangelist. Does he know what's inside of his gadgets or that there are better alternatives? No. He doesn't need to, because daddy pays for everything.

The point is that the majority of iPhone lovers that I know either bought the iPhone because it was the coolest thing at the time or pretty much caved into the sheep herd mentality. They don't know, care or bother about what's inside their phone as long as it works and lets them show off and do the basic stuff. They're happy paying the premium.

Unfortunately, I'm not a filthy rich guy, and so I have to carefully ponder upon what I purchase. And IMO Apple are getting away with murder by selling overpriced, under performing products, and what's strange is people are happy paying for it.

Also I am not an expert and my English is too poor to get involved in this discussion so I am just going to tell the main reason why I have bought an iPhone : the great amazing and unique quality audio. Music for me it's so important that I always chose the best no matter the price. I have tested all the mobile available and none could match the iPhone.

$600 is a lot of money for an MP3 player. :p From my discussions with Audiophiles, they considered the good old Galaxy S to have the best sound hardware and quality in a smartphone to date (I believe Galaxy S3 has now beaten that), something to do with the chipset. The sound quality on my S2 is not the greatest, I'll admit that, but I didn't buy it for music anyway.

Also the biggest mobile websites in their test have iPhone on top so it was an easy choice for me. I have owned my iPhone 4S for 5 months now, it work perfectly in everything and have suggested it to other people. Many went for it and are now very satisfied about their choice.

Galaxy S2 was given the phone of the year tag by majority of the phone review websites, with iPhone 4S a close second.

So I really don't get all your critics but life is beautiful just because each one has a different opinion...

My gripe, as with all Apple products, is the ridiculous premium price. The Galaxy S2 is $150 cheaper with better hardware. PCs are on average $400 to $800 cheaper with better hardware. Windows 7 is a much better OS than Mac OS X. So, why do people pay extra?

CaptainRaiden

22nd June 2012, 17:08

Dell laptops all have hard drive failures - the Dell repair dude has his own desk here (no joke!), the hard drive has failed on every single laptop we have here.

I must live in a parallel universe, because in the six combined years of my old Dell and my new Dell Inspiron, not ONCE have I had a hard drive failure. Maybe a format and an OS reinstall once, but never a hard drive failure.

Do you guys get a lot of earthquakes or get drunk after work and dance on your laptops? :p

Dave B

22nd June 2012, 17:13

... I am just going to tell the main reason why I have bought an iPhone : the great amazing and unique quality audio. Music for me it's so important that I always chose the best no matter the price. I have tested all the mobile available and none could match the iPhone.
I've never come across anybody saying the iPhone (or any phone for that matter) has particularly great sound quality, although the iPhone is possibly the best of a mediocre bunch. Mind you most of the people I see are using those ridiculous Beats or Skullcandy headphones, so I guess quality takes a back seat to perceived fashion for them!

CaptainRaiden

22nd June 2012, 17:17

Its not just an operating system though is it? You seem to be picking out what you like to respond to. I don't believe the Apple OS looks shocking and I'm pretty sure most Product designers in my field would agree its alot more stylish and easy to use than Windows 7. Most graphic designer like Mac's because they are nice to use and most design packages work freely with Mac.

That is your opinion henners ol' mate. I find OS X to be rather dumb and Windows 7 to be at least 10 times better. Also, I have loads of friends who are graphic designers, because I work in a similar area, and none of them use OS X. You already know very well that programmers stay as far away from Apple as they possibly can. The only ones who use Macs are the video editors for FCP.

I've just been unlucky and I'm not alone. Theres quite a few threads started across the internet of Dell users with the same laptop as mine who have had to return their laptops because of cheap end hard drives being used.

Never a case with me in my decade old Dell experience. But who knows, by the time I end typing this, the hard drive in this laptop might go kaput. :p

My Casio only cost £200 less than my Tag so its within the price bracket comparison you are doing between Mac and PC.. So again, why would someone pay 200 quid more for a watch, when they have another that does more? I'm guessing you have never been guilty of liking a brand so much you'd buy it over another?

I've never liked a brand so much that I would pay $800 more, or hell, even $200 more. ;) Logic always comes first somehow. Maybe when I get rich, then I could throw money around on things I don't really need. :p

You are convinced and you are entitled to that opinion. The problem you seem to have is that you don't appear willing to accept others may not agree with you or are providing answers that are acceptable to you on the criteria you are outlining. To you the more powerful the hardware, the better the phone as long as it is cheaper, so why do so many people not share you opinion on this and buy iPhones, Mac's, iPads etc? They are not all gullible and stupid my friend. :)

The thing is I don't care if people like Apple products or buy them in bundles and use them or whatever.

Like I said, I can't understand, and probably never would understand the ridiculous pricing from Apple. Let's just make our peace with that. :)

pino

22nd June 2012, 17:26

Ok Dave now you have come across someone who says that iPhone is the best music mobile on the marked by miles. And btw I am not using crap earphones, got 2 different one both excellent : Klipsch i4 and Shure SE 315 but even with the original earphones the sound is amazing ;)

Dave B

22nd June 2012, 17:34

Malbec

22nd June 2012, 18:50

I am already convinced Apple products are a load of trash.

Really?

For me for a computer or phone to be trash it has to be unfit for purpose, either doesn't work or is near unusable. I put it to you that on the current market you'll have to try VERY hard to find any product that is 'trash' as you call it, and if it is it will almost certainly be a fly-by-night company flogging a PC-based product due to the ease of manufacture. Apples would be at the top end of the market and satisfaction rates would suggest they are far from trash.

But this raises another question.

On this thread over the last few pages I've paid attention to, you've claimed that Apple customers are gullible and ignorant while Apple products are trash.

I think most people have made clear on this thread that Apples are not the answer to everything and that people have respect for, use and buy other products where they provide a better solution to their needs. Nowhere have I seen anyone deride users of non-Apple products.

You might wish to take note that the only person using derisive language like that is you. This does your argument very little good and by extension puts you in a poor light.

BTW your argument appears to revolve around the fact that Apple products offer poor value for money in terms of hardware performance and it seems that you cannot grasp the fact that other factors might be of importance to consumers. This is an exceptionally simplistic view of the computer and phone market, indeed of the world in general.

Extending your argument to the car market you would be arguing that Kias are by far the best car in the world and that by any objective measure anyone who buys a premium brand such as BMW or Mercedes must be an idiot. The problem is you're ignoring and dismissing all those voices saying "I want something that makes me feel good" "I need something sporty" "I need something that can take me off-road".

Malbec

22nd June 2012, 18:54

There's a lot of FUD but you should apply the same sensible precautions as you do with any other OS: don't download from dodgy sites, don't click links you don't trust, and check what permissions you give apps. There are a few bits of malware for Android, and some of them made it onto the official store whereas Apple are a tad more anal about checking these things; but don't automatically assume other OSs are automatically immune, that's the kind of herd thinking which leads to monumentally stupid statements like "Macs don't get infected" or "you don't need antivirus with Firefox".

Thanks for that, so no specific security weaknesses then as long as you're being sensible.

BleAivano

22nd June 2012, 19:05

Dear Captain, dunno in your country but where I live at the moment (Danmark) 8 people out of 10 have an iPhone...there must be a reason don't you think? Also I am not an expert and my English is too poor to get involved in this discussion so I am just going to tell the main reason why I have bought an iPhone : the great amazing and unique quality audio. Music for me it's so important that I always chose the best no matter the price. I have tested all the mobile available and none could match the iPhone. Also the biggest mobile websites in their test have iPhone on top so it was an easy choice for me. I have owned my iPhone 4S for 5 months now, it work perfectly in everything and have suggested it to other people. Many went for it and are now very satisfied about their choice. So I really don't get all your critics but life is beautiful just because each one has a different opinion...

Posted via iPhone 4S :p :

Like Cap R said, its popular because its popular. Many buy them because "everybody else" have one, rather then because the phones specs.
Does that automatically make it good phone? Its the same with most things. Our purchases are influenced by others.

Regarding prices currently these are the cheapest prices that i can find for some phones

HTC One X, 5000kr
S. Galaxy SIII, 5500kr
Iphone 4S, 5200kr

So what with the older 4S makes it worth the same money as the HOX and the S3?

Imo the S3 and HOX are the phones that currently sets the standard for a top of the line smartphone and i dont think
that IP5 will reach up to their standard.

Mark

22nd June 2012, 19:28

You already know very well that programmers stay as far away from Apple as they possibly can.

Can't agree! The development team where I work all use Macs and find them much better for development than PCs.

I suspect they'd find Linux even better but perhaps that's a step too far.

[/QUOTE]

ioan

22nd June 2012, 22:34

Dear Captain, dunno in your country but where I live at the moment (Danmark) 8 people out of 10 have an iPhone...there must be a reason don't you think?

Most probably there are more snobs in Denmark then in other countries?! :D
Or you had something different in mind? :p

race aficionado

22nd June 2012, 22:57

I had a go with one yesterday and am seriously considering this as my next upgrade. Its considerably cheaper than the present iPhone and is packed with features. I loved the big screen too. I can keep my Android apps which would be a bonus. I don't like the blue version though on a purely aesthetical basis. It looks cheap and feels cheap for some reason but is stunning in white. :)

Yep, it's a HOT phone all right. :D

I of course am being cheeky here - if it's on print, it's not necessarily true.

Galaxy S3 Reportedly Explodes, Samsung Investigating (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/22/galaxy-s3-explodes-samsung_n_1617907.html?utm_hp_ref=technology&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl20%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D172356)

CaptainRaiden

23rd June 2012, 10:46

Really?

For me for a computer or phone to be trash it has to be unfit for purpose, either doesn't work or is near unusable. I put it to you that on the current market you'll have to try VERY hard to find any product that is 'trash' as you call it, and if it is it will almost certainly be a fly-by-night company flogging a PC-based product due to the ease of manufacture. Apples would be at the top end of the market and satisfaction rates would suggest they are far from trash.

But this raises another question.

On this thread over the last few pages I've paid attention to, you've claimed that Apple customers are gullible and ignorant while Apple products are trash.

I think most people have made clear on this thread that Apples are not the answer to everything and that people have respect for, use and buy other products where they provide a better solution to their needs. Nowhere have I seen anyone deride users of non-Apple products.

You might wish to take note that the only person using derisive language like that is you. This does your argument very little good and by extension puts you in a poor light.

BTW your argument appears to revolve around the fact that Apple products offer poor value for money in terms of hardware performance and it seems that you cannot grasp the fact that other factors might be of importance to consumers. This is an exceptionally simplistic view of the computer and phone market, indeed of the world in general.

Extending your argument to the car market you would be arguing that Kias are by far the best car in the world and that by any objective measure anyone who buys a premium brand such as BMW or Mercedes must be an idiot. The problem is you're ignoring and dismissing all those voices saying "I want something that makes me feel good" "I need something sporty" "I need something that can take me off-road".

It's exactly this kind of justification from customers that lets Apple put such ridiculous price stickers on inferior products and people are happy paying it, because hey, it works!

If you have a problem with my posts or my "language", please add me to your ignore list. :)

The reason I called Apple products trash is because of the huge difference in price for inferior products. Okay, so in your and henners' opinion the OS X is better and convenient than Windows 7, and it's easy to use for its customers. Okay, so Apple charges more for that. But if I'm paying extra, shouldn't I get the SAME or at least comparable hardware?

Why is there a difference of $800 between the two laptops below? And keep in mind, you're getting inferior hardware on the Macbook for the extra $800.

Amazon.com: Apple MacBook Pro MD102LL/A 13.3-Inch Laptop (NEWEST VERSION): Computers & Accessories (http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MacBook-MD102LL-13-3-Inch-VERSION/dp/B007470SMM/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1340444504&sr=8-4&keywords=macbook+pro)

Amazon.com: Dell XPS X15Z-7502ELS 15-Inch Laptop (Elemental Silver): Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Dell-X15Z-7502ELS-15-Inch-Laptop-Elemental/dp/B006LX2MOC/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1340444553&sr=1-1&keywords=dell+xps)

Only for the Mac OS X? :)

I'm no tech expert, but I don't think a "better OS" (which is laughable BTW) and a brand name deserves the extra $800.

From that money, I can buy the Dell XPS laptop AND a brand spanking new Samsung Galaxy S3.

CaptainRaiden

23rd June 2012, 10:52

Like Cap R said, its popular because its popular. Many buy them because "everybody else" have one, rather then because the phones specs.
Does that automatically make it good phone? Its the same with most things. Our purchases are influenced by others.

Regarding prices currently these are the cheapest prices that i can find for some phones

HTC One X, 5000kr
S. Galaxy SIII, 5500kr
Iphone 4S, 5200kr

So what with the older 4S makes it worth the same money as the HOX and the S3?

Imo the S3 and HOX are the phones that currently sets the standard for a top of the line smartphone and i dont think
that IP5 will reach up to their standard.

THIS is exactly what I can't understand. Both the One X and S3 are technical masterpieces and pretty much thrash the iPhone 4S in every department imaginable. Hell, the "old" S2 did it a year ago, and S3 is only better. Android 4.0 ICS has proven to be a much better and versatile OS compared to iOS.

BUT yet, they are in the same price range.

People would still buy the iPhone though, because they want the brand name as Jag explained a few posts ago. Beauty is only skin deep. ;)

CaptainRaiden

23rd June 2012, 11:00

Can't agree! The development team where I work all use Macs and find them much better for development than PCs.

I suspect they'd find Linux even better but perhaps that's a step too far.

Again, I must live in a parallel universe. The 10-15 programmers I know (one of them works for Qualcomm in San Diego, CA, one for Google in Bangalore and some others for bioinformatics companies) are not Mac fans whatsoever. It is from talking with them that I got this "anti-Apple" attitude. :p

Linux is the primary choice, followed by Windows at least for the ones that I know.

CaptainRaiden

23rd June 2012, 11:03

Yep, it's a HOT phone all right. :D

I of course am being cheeky here - if it's on print, it's not necessarily true.

Galaxy S3 Reportedly Explodes, Samsung Investigating (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/22/galaxy-s3-explodes-samsung_n_1617907.html?utm_hp_ref=technology&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl20%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D172356)

Yeah, one isolated incident is enough to strike fear in the hearts of Galaxy S3 users.

iPhone 4 Explodes Midflight on Australian Airline - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/technology/2011/11/iphone-4-explodes-midflight-on-australian-airline/)

Ayla Mota's iPhone explodes: Device emits smoke and sparks while charging | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2068638/Ayla-Motas-iPhone-explodes-Device-emits-smoke-sparks-charging.html)

iPhone 4S Battery Explosion Problem (http://www.nodeju.com/16566/iphone-4s-battery-explosion-problem.html)

Another Iphone 4s Explodes In Brazil - Phones - Nairaland (http://www.nairaland.com/814944/another-iphone-4s-explodes-brazil)

Be afraid, be VERY afraid the next time you put your iPhone next to your ear. :p

CaptainRaiden

23rd June 2012, 11:37

Maybe you get inferior hardware because Apple design their computers and software in such a way that they don't demand as much from the hardware itself? Why are Apple Macs often faster than PC's when using programmes such as Adobe Photoshop, Lightroom, Illustrator, and InDesign? In my experience they are.

On a PC with similar specs? I highly doubt it. I have used all applications included in the Adobe Creative Suite on a Mac, a PC, a Macbook and a Dell laptop and didn't find any difference.

For the price of a Mac though you can buy a killer PC with double the specs, which will wipe the floor with the Mac with ease in any area imaginable. I have used such a monster with an SSD. Win 7 boots to desktop in 15 seconds flat, and Photoshop fires up in max 2-3 seconds. Rendering tasks in Premiere are a breeze. The Mac would of course be seriously trailing behind at this point for the SAME price. But of course if you're unsure of how to use or set up a PC, then it's gonna be tough. :D

My HTC Incredible S smartphone has a better spec on paper than my wifes iPhone 4 as another example. Why then is it slower to load webpages even on a WiFi connection, and the battery needs charging alot more frequent than hers? Side by side when you compare the specs, my phone is streets ahead or hers and even has a more powerful battery!! I keep getting told that I need to keep killing apps to maximise my battery life, but why should I have to keep doing that? The iPhone doesn't leave battery sucking apps running in the background and to be honest I think the OS is just better designed to cope with such use. I really enjoy using my Android phone don't get me wrong. It does most things the iPhone does, but there is a clear quality and performance difference regardless of its superior hardware.

First of all, the specs are quite similar. They both have a 1 Ghz single core processor I believe, and I wouldn't call a 250 MB RAM advantage of the HTC to be "streets ahead."

Second, you're comparing Android 2.2 Froyo with iOS 5. A better comparison would be 2.3 Gingerbread, especially with Samsung's touchwhiz UI, which makes it the biggest competitor to Apple, not HTC. Android 4.0 ICS is of course better than iOS 5.

Anyway, traditionally Android requires slightly better hardware, just because it's so versatile and customizable.

If the iPhone is being thrashed on every level especially the hardware, then why is it the most popular selling and most desirable phone on the market? And no its not just clever marketing and a sheep hearded mentality of consumers. Thats just a simplistic view to justify something one can't really answer IMO.

When the iPhone 4S was beaten in every area by the Galaxy S2, and still sells more, that tells you how much people really pay attention to reviews or even bother with what's inside their phone.

Also, you do realize that iPhone hardware + touchscreen were made by Samsung. Apple didn't invent apps. They were also a result of widgets made by Samsung. Galaxy S2 sold close to 10 million phones in a year, and was only a close second to iPhone 4S. Apple stayed ahead because of better brand marketing, flashy TV ads (especially the one with Siri doing unrealistic things which it doesn't do in reality) and creating hype around their phones. How many Apple ads do you see on TV versus Samsung ads?

Products are only inferior if the individual thinks they are. Many Apple owners may think the Dells are inferior and have reasons for it, what makes you think they have to be wrong?

In Apple's case, the products actually are inferior sold at a higher price. Apple's image, brand name, product placement (Macbooks with the bright Apple logo in Hollywood movies) and fancy exterior is what's keeping them marginally ahead..... for now. ;)

CaptainRaiden

23rd June 2012, 11:43

It sounds like your friends are are risk of being dangerously out of touch. If they are so anti a particular type of product, then they are in danger of putting themselves out of a job by dismissing a service based on past prejudices. People in IT have to be open to new technology and have an appreciation to how the market and systems develop. I have certain opinions on Design Packages but I don't judge them too harshly because I never know if I may need a job that uses a package I have had negative feelings about.

While I agree with what you say, I'll make sure to pass on your expert advice to the outdated guys working on Qualcomm's next gen mobile processor, Google translate and the ones designing apps for Android or optimizing Android's upcoming Jelly Bean OS for tablets. :)

And the prejudices aren't past, they're quite recent actually. :p

CaptainRaiden

23rd June 2012, 12:18

My HTC was released after the iPhone 4 and was actually the same price at the beginning with as you say a similar hardware spec. To watch it completely overtaken by an older phone is not great. The better Android software you mention to compare won't run on my phone because its not fast enough. Why can Apple release software compatible to suit a year old device but Android only support better and newer devices?

Dear henners, it is because Android is a much better OS, and because it is so customizable, requires slightly better hardware. You cannot customize iOS NEARLY as well as you can with Android, not even close. Think of it as a fancy video game which requires more horsepower.

Going by your logic, Windows Phone 7 is the best mobile OS ever, as it requires even less horsepower and blasts the iPhone 4S in benchmark tests with inferior hardware.

The S2 was released way after mine and was a lot better yes, but now this is compared to the iPhone because its more on its level?

First of all the S2 is compared to iPhone 4S not the older iPhone 4, because it's in the same price bracket ($150 cheaper though) as the iPhone 4S. It's got better hardware, bigger screen and is faster at everything, even at booting. It boots to home screen in half the time of the 4S.

Comparing one company like Apple who release a smartphone every 2 years to a wide range of manufacturers who use one operating system is rather a biased comparison IMO. Yes Apple still charge a premium in comparison to these newer Android devices but they don't have any competitors using the same OS so they can. Simple as that really.

First of all, Android is open source, so even Apple or Nokia can use them, but they choose not to. You can even install Android on your laptop, it's free to download.

Second, nobody stops Apple from releasing phones more often. Hell, they release an iPad every year. So, their latest phone will be compared to the closest competitor I'm afraid. The iPhone 4S cannot be compared with HTC One X or Galaxy S3, because they're both in a different league. But the iPhone 5 will be compared to these.

Third, the iOS 5 is not better than Android 4.0 ICS. You may believe it is, but it's not, as it has been proven in many tests by phone review websites by smartphone experts. So, there's no reason really for Apple to charge a premium. They do it, because they can and because Apple customers believe they are justified.

I'm glad Samsung are considered the biggest competitor to Apple because it pushes both companies forward. Its rumoured the iPhone 5 is alot more powerful than the S3, so that can only be a good thing for both. Samsung will no doubt wait 7 months and release the S4 that will be slightly better on hardware than the iPhone, but no doubt Apple will still sell more devices and still be the market leader in 2 years time. You have to ask yourself why this is the case if they are just a load of inferior products with a fancy brand slapped on the back. I think theres alot more to it than that.

I didn't know your part-time job was being Oracle, henners. :p I highly doubt the iPhone 5 would be more powerful, but let's see. Apple have a history of unveiling underpowered gadgets. :p The iPhone 4S with much inferior hardware and features than the Galaxy S3, is in the same price range, which is just ridiculous BTW. I highly doubt the Apple would be able to keep the price competitive with a much more powerful iPhone 5, especially if it's got a bigger screen, because as it goes with Apple, every little change adds $200 to the total price.

Also, let's watch that space about who's the market leader in 2 years. iPhone is slightly ahead right now, because it got the jump in the smartphone arena.

Android came from nowhere, made a similar OS and interface, and jumped from 4th at its debut to now world's number one smartphone OS. Through different devices, it now has almost 60% of the world's smartphone share. And since it's open source, they have been developing it at frantic pace, pretty much forcing Apple's hand, which resulted in the launch of iPhone 4S instead of waiting another year for the iPhone 5.

The reason Apple sells more at this point is because it's an established brand, a lot of people are aware of the name Apple. Many don't know about Android, and Samsung is doing a great job putting the name out there with its Galaxy phones.

cali

23rd June 2012, 12:28

I did realise that yes and I think we've discussed the many patent battles between the two companies on here in the past. I'm well aware Apple funded development done by Samsung. I am also aware that Samsung no longer develop the touchscreens for Apple and the new iPhone will have its screen manufactured and developed by 'Sharp'. Sorry if I gave you the impression I thought Apple invented the 'Application'. You must have a very low opinion of my intelligence level.
I think the Retina displays are produced by LG. Not sure though ...
In estonian technology columns people always passionate fights on topics like "OS X vs Windows vs Linux" or "WP vs Android vs iOS". I think it rather childish as these are merely products and do not pose any real value in our lives.

CaptainRaiden

23rd June 2012, 12:30

No need to be sarcastic and disrespectful. I wasn't using that tone with you thank you very much, just giving my opinion. I am by no means an expert and have not tried to give that impression.

Relax dude, it was a harmless joke. No need to take it too seriously. While my posts may seem condescending, I don't have evil intent. :)

Now you have told me they work for Google and are working on developing the new Android OS, I must admit I am quite surprised to hear they are rather anti Apple in general and don't use Mac's in their daily work. That is a surprise. :eek:

:laugh:

Well, Qualcomm could be a possible customer to Apple in the future. :D

I did realise that yes and I think we've discussed the many patent battles between the two companies on here in the past. I'm well aware Apple funded development done by Samsung. I am also aware that Samsung no longer develop the touchscreens for Apple and the new iPhone will have its screen manufactured and developed by 'Sharp'. Sorry if I gave you the impression I thought Apple invented the 'Application'. You must have a very low opinion of my intelligence level.

I might have made the mistake of generalizing again, as I once had a conversation with an Apple fanboy who told me how Android was a rip-off of "Apple" and that they also stole the idea of mobile apps that Apple "invented". :(

ArrowsFA1

23rd June 2012, 13:54

The point is that the majority of iPhone lovers...don't know, care or bother about what's inside their phone as long as it works...
And that's a bad thing because...?

BleAivano

23rd June 2012, 14:09

Relax dude, it was a harmless joke. No need to take it too seriously. While my posts may seem condescending, I don't have evil intent. :)

:laugh:

Well, Qualcomm could be a possible customer to Apple in the future. :D

I might have made the mistake of generalizing again, as I once had a conversation with an Apple fanboy who told me how Android was a rip-off of "Apple" and that they also stole the idea of mobile apps that Apple "invented". :(

Android is not a more rip off of iphones then iphones are rip offs of Palm pilots.
Apple took a concept (palm pilots with touch screens) and made it better. Now HTC/Samsung/Google have improved the concept further.

airshifter

24th June 2012, 04:00

Again, I must live in a parallel universe. The 10-15 programmers I know (one of them works for Qualcomm in San Diego, CA, one for Google in Bangalore and some others for bioinformatics companies) are not Mac fans whatsoever. It is from talking with them that I got this "anti-Apple" attitude. :p

A classis quote. You have become an Apple hater primarily due to your limited association with other Apple haters. :laugh:

Having spent a number of years self employed in the sign industry, your statements concerning the graphics field are flat out wrong. The field has for years been dominated by Apple.

Being that you are basing your dislike on second hand information, it's no surprise that you don't understand that hardware specs alone don't create a great system. I've built PCs for decades now, and have seen supposed inferior hardware and software vastly outperform the "better" alternatives. The same often applies to phones. The only true test is a side by side comparison, and most often you find that neither is superior in all aspects.

The market volume alone speaks for Apple. You can hate them all you want, as your opinion isn't hurting their bottom line in the slightest.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 06:55

That still doesn't answer my question as to why I can't install the latest Android OS on my phone though does it? I'm sure ice cream sandwich is great, but my phone which is as powerful as an iPhone 4 can't run it due to inferior hardware! The problem with Android is the sheer amount of companies making phones with so many different specs. Phones are quickly outdated and developers push the software towards the higher end of the market. That doesn't help people like me who have phones that are 18 months old and stuck on older versions of the software.

I'm in danger of repeating myself, but I will anyway. Like I said before, Android requires slightly better hardware to work, because of how customizable it really is, and how many options you have to play around with compared to the iOS 5.

There are mods based off of Android 4.0 ICS, especially one called Cyanogen - CyanogenMod | Android Community Rom based on Ice Cream Sandwich (http://www.cyanogenmod.com/) - something like this BTW will NEVER be possible on an iPhone.

You are right nobody stops Apple producing more devices but it would be a little stupid to keep releasing phones at extra development cost if the present ones are selling in the millions and as popular as ever. Its clear Apple don't need to produce more devices to compete, because they are controlling the market with what you believe are inferior devices. Sounds like a pretty sound business model to me.

They were forced to rush the iPhone 4S though because of Android's rapidly increasing popularity.

I'm not pretending to have an answer for the future. An Apple executive poked fun the other day at the spec of the S3 and said the iPhone 5 will be better. Whether or not that is true, I do not know at this stage of course. It could be a marketing ploy, or it may mean Samsung will release the S4 quicker than they hope to.

If the iPhone 5 is better than the S3 and is around the same price range, I'll be HIGHLY surprised. If the specs are even equal, I expect it to be at least $200 to $300 more expensive.

You also keep making the point that Apple add $200 to the price, but can you please give an example of when they have done this with the last 5 versions of their iPhone? Every release is priced the same as the outgoing model and this has already been pointed out to you by Mark the forum administrator. Its a valid point, and what you are claiming there is completely and utterly false Captain I'm afraid.

Really? I wasn't talking about iPhones, but Apple as a whole. Their products are ridiculously overpriced. Take this Macbook Pro as an example - Amazon.com: Apple MacBook Pro MD103LL/A 15.4-Inch Laptop (NEWEST VERSION): Computers & Accessories (http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MacBook-MD103LL-15-4-Inch-VERSION/dp/B0074712UY/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1340516292&sr=8-5&keywords=macbook+pro)

If you select the 750 GB option, the price increases to $400. WTF? $400 for a 250 GB increase?? A 500 GB notebook hard drive costs no more than $80. Why does the hard drive (with half the space) on a Macbook cost 10 times as much?!? Is there gold lining in the hard drive which helps it to not crash? :)

So far NOBODY in this whole thread has actually been able to give valid reasons apart from "convenience" and "ease of use" to explain Apple charging ridiculous premium for inferior hardware. Like I gave links to the Dell XPS and Macbook before, with an $800 difference for inferior hardware, EVEN if the Dell hard drive failures (which for me it hasn't ever in a decade), I can change it 10 times and still come $100 cheaper than the Macbook. :)

At the same price, a laptop will run circles around the Macbook, also run applications faster and smoother than the Macbook. Not to mention the fact that there are twice the number of applications available for Windows. Plus, probably 3 out of 10 respectable game developers actually make a game for Mac. You can check the ratio of games produced for PC and Mac.

I don't believe for a second many people are not aware of the Android OS. It may be very different in India, but every UK high street has a series of Phone Shops that fill their windows full of adverts pushing Android, iPhone you name it. Our national papers usually contained at least 6 major adverts and pullout phone magazines. We are also a nation that get bombarded with cold calls selling us such services, so in the UK, Android is very popular and very well publicized. I would imagine many here who live in the Uk would agree with me on that too. Elsewhere may be very different but I don't see why we would be targeted anymore than other countries when we are a country of avid mobile phone users.

Most of the folks I know that bought iPhones, first of all purely as a fashion accessory to not lose face in society, second, were unsure about Android or said that the interface seemed "confusing" to them. The female friend with the kid that I talked about earlier, bought the iPhone because she thought the Samsung had inferior hardware, and it would stop working or break, maybe because they're "Chinese". :roflmao:

And this I'm talking about from personal experience living for short, but valid periods of time in India, USA, UK, France and now Romania.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 06:58

And that's a bad thing because...?

...it gives Apple free rein to charge ridiculous premium for inferior hardware.

BleAivano

24th June 2012, 07:07

And that's a bad thing because...?

think about for a while, how would you react if you were to buy a car, lets say a KIA, and the price`was the same as for a Rolls Royce. How would you react to that?

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 07:45

A classis quote. You have become an Apple hater primarily due to your limited association with other Apple haters. :laugh:

Boy, we can take things seriously. Is putting smileys at the end no more a valid expression to indicate that was a "joke"?? Probably not.

Having spent a number of years self employed in the sign industry, your statements concerning the graphics field are flat out wrong. The field has for years been dominated by Apple.

Being that you are basing your dislike on second hand information, it's no surprise that you don't understand that hardware specs alone don't create a great system. I've built PCs for decades now, and have seen supposed inferior hardware and software vastly outperform the "better" alternatives. The same often applies to phones. The only true test is a side by side comparison, and most often you find that neither is superior in all aspects.

What utter crap. First of all, my opinion is based on personal and work experience, not "second hand" information as you have very naively assumed. The talk with programmers and "Apple hate" was an obvious joke. I have for years now worked as a graphic-web designer and a video editor. I have designed several websites, and also designed the website for my own online business (links I can't give because of privacy reasons). I've hand coded CSS, HTML and javascript and worked mainly with Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver etc. and have intermittently used everything in the Adobe CS for the past 8 years.

First of all, Apple does not dominate the field, that's utter bull crap. It depends on the place you work at, whether the company decides to install PC or Mac. Apple uses subset PC hardware for Macs, and so ATI and Nvidia graphic cards on both PC and Mac are technically exactly the same, even if Apple would like you to believe that their motherboards are superior. You can have better hardware on PC for lesser, and that is what a design suite needs, good hardware. The number of production houses and graphic design companies I've worked at, had Macs for video editing (only for Final Cut Pro) and PCs for everything else, which was the sensible thing to do.

Second, with PC, you get variety of options with spec, price, quality and a number of different vendors, you have many options, whereas for Mac you have very limited options, and if it ever goes tits up, you only have one vendor to repair it. Have you tried changing a component like a hard drive or a graphic card on a Mac? With PCs you can constantly upgrade every 6 months, nobody stops you. And not to mention the most obvious fact, Macs are ridiculously expensive.

If you were to make a website for example, whether it's heavy and feature rich, uses a lot of Flash or is light is irrelevant, you will most likely use the Adobe Suite to do it, and both PC and Mac will get it done. The difference is that for the price of a Mac, you will build a much, MUCH faster PC which will get the job done faster. This I have experienced myself as I have worked both on Mac and PC. What I have found with Macs is the transitions are smoother, because of the way their OS works and is designed, which gives the impression it is smoother, but that doesn't make it faster. Stuff like final rendering of HD videos or animations take the same amount of time on a Mac as it would on a similarly speced PC, and this I have witnessed "first hand" working as a video editor myself and sitting next to 3D modelers and animators.

In the field of designing and video/audio editing, whichever software you're using, it takes the same amount of time to process. It's true in the case of video editing, whether you're using Adobe Premiere on PC or Final Cut Pro on Mac or in the case of audio editing, whether you're using Sound Forge or Audacity or Acid Pro or Soundbooth. A lot depends on processing power and especially for all the applications included in the Adobe CS, they'll only go as fast as the hardware allows, so the use of Mac OS X or Windows 7 for designing purposes is irrelevant.

Some companies might go with Apple for their offices, because of "convenience" or "ease of use" and the fact that Apple's corporate customers enjoy better customer and technical support. That doesn't change the fact that for the price of a Mac, the PC you'll build will always be superior and for a lot of other media publishing houses, who know what to do with their computers, PC is always the first choice.

The market volume alone speaks for Apple. You can hate them all you want, as your opinion isn't hurting their bottom line in the slightest.

Are you sure about that?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Wikimedia_OS_share_pie_chart.png

It will be a LOT of decades until Apple actually becomes a serious contender to Microsoft's domination of the computer world. It was and always will remain a luxury brand, not for serious computing IMO.

Also, it's pretty childish to assume that I would think me slandering Apple is gonna affect their sales. WTF? If I wanted to do that, I'd stand with a placard outside their headquarters, not post on a motorsport "discussion" forum. :p

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 08:39

Probably this image explains my point in more detail :D

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/1569_700b.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 08:40

Sorry, couldn't resist. Was too funny not to post. :laugh:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/737646_700b.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 08:41

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4526905_700b.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 08:42

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/1116_700b.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 08:45

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4472157_700b.jpg

ArrowsFA1

24th June 2012, 10:08

This is just like playing Top Trumps. Fun, but ultimately pointless.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 10:23

So basically when you buy into the Android service like you and myself, expect them to release an even more powerful version of the software 8 months down the line that our phones aren't powerful enough to run? That sounds great, I'll just buy a better phone every few months then. My wife bought her iPhone in October 2010 and it runs iOS 5 which was a later update. She had no problems with her hardware not being powerfull enough to run it. It may well be fantastic to have an OS that is very customizable like Android, but we're in danger of going down the route PC gaming went down where consumers have to keep spending alot more money on hardware to keep up with the software. Maybe Apple charge a premium, but you are guaranteed to have a device that is compatable with updates for up to 2 years as is presently the case with the iPhone and iPad. It sounds like for me to have kept up with the latest Android OS, I would have needed to spend alot more money on phones that are capable of running this amazing customizable software.

The S2 was released a couple of months after my Incredible S and my phone was instantly out of date hardware-wise. People ask you what service you have and you say Android, to which they reply what phone do you have, whereas an iPhone is an iPhone and is as good as anyones elses iPhone. No hardware battles which IMO is a bonus. To you with your techy preferences I can imagine its your worst nightmare.

Obviously I forgot to add that the Cyanogen Mod (http://www.cyanogenmod.com/) (based off of Android 4.0 ICS) is optimized to be installed even on phones which are 4 years older. I have seen it running fine on a crappy 500 Mhz Samsung Galaxy 5. So, it will work like a breeze on your HTC henners. Does Apple allow modding of their OS? Can you customize your home screen on an iPhone with whatever you can throw in there? No.

The S3 is priced in the UK at present for the handset only at £499. That is the same price of the iPhone 16gb on launch and this has been the case for the past 4 handsets Apple have released. Why do you keep repeating this notion they are suddenly going to add $200 to the price when they haven't in the past? They are very clear about their aims when releasing a new product and they always keep it inline with the last outgoing product. At the end of the day they want to keep their customers and are not suddenly going to bump it up 40%. I think you are adding this spin to it yourself to be quite honest, because you know as well as I do that Apple haven't done this before.

First question is, why is the iPhone 4S at the same price as the Galaxy S3?? That is, for everything that is pure and holy, just blatant robbery by Apple. The Galaxy S3 is twice the phone the iPhone 4S can even dream of being, then why do Apple charge more?

Second, confirmed on Amazon.com, the difference of price between the 16 GB and 32 GB version of Samsung Galaxy S3 is $100.

The difference of price between the 16 GB and 32 GB iPhone 4S is $250. So, again, I repeat my question. Do I get golden eggs along with extra physical storage from Apple? The point about how good the operating system is, is moot here. The fact is Apple charges twice the price for even stupid storage increase for apparently no reason whatsoever. And the fact that it has no expandable memory is the icing on the cake.

Another example:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/458707_700b.jpg

Price of iPhone 4 right now - $570
Price of Samsung Galaxy S2 - $450

Source: Amazon.com

Hmm. $120 more for an inferior phone, feature wise AND hardware wise. Wow, such a tough choice!

Because not everybody who buys a new laptop gives a toss about every bit of detail concerning its hardware. You obviously do and I have no problem with that. I really don't understand why you are so frustrated with people buying what they like and don't have the same gripes about hardware as yourself. I've been unlucky with my Dell like many others. We've had Dell failures at work on desktop machines that are a few months old. I do get the impression you don't believe I have had a HD failure? As long as PC World believe me and fix it soon, thats all that matters to be honest.

Well, henners, so are you saying that Apple charging $800 more for a lesser speced Macbook is OKAY? Yes or no? Are you saying they're justified in asking that price, and that if given the choice, you would buy the Macbook?

Here's another example:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/1506868_700b.jpg

Mac's were never designed to run games and have never been aimed at the gaming community.

Whether they're aimed at gamers or not is irrelevant. If I'm paying freakin $2000 for a PC, it better well play games.

In my opinion PC gamers are amongst the sadest people on earth :p ...

I don't know why console players suddenly think they're cooler for playing the same games that PC gamers play on PC. Societal pressure? :p Consoles are low definition b@stard kids of PC. Whichever game you can think of, will run better on PC. You can attach a wireless controller to a PC, but you can't play with a mouse and keyboard on consoles.

Seriously though, Mac's have always been aimed at design and music developers along with creative businesses and gaming is not even on their radar. I don't think its a market they've needed to enter and even PC gaming is less popular than it used to be. I gave up trying to keep up with that years ago because it cost too much money and girls became a more fun interest lol.

I'm sure your wife would absolutely LOVE to read this. :D

I get the impression you are so passionate about hating Apple, you may influence any conversation you have about it and people may just agree with you rather than get into an unnecessary verbal debate. If we were face to face I'd probably just say "yeah iPhones are Sh!t, are you watching the GP later?"... This personal friend of yours understood from what you are saying that hardware is important, but she bought a phone without researching it? Sounds odd to me considering that information is readily available for those wanting to know. It also sounds like the iPhone is perfect for her because she probably wouldn't be too bothered about customization if the interface is considered confusing.

That friend and a lot of other folks that I know, somehow remind me that a lot of iPhone buyers and users, without sounding too condescending, are not very technologically savvy. This enables Apple to promote their products with flashy ads and with really unrealistic expectations. With their advertisement campaigns, they can even make a turd look like a diamond ring, an example that I'll show you in my next post. I would consider myself a bit more knowledgeable in techy stuff, not an expert though, and simply knowing how the way Apple charges a premium is criminal, annoys me. Rant over.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 10:28

If Apple is so loved and they make such amazing products, why are they the target of ridicule and are being made fun of by the tech crowd?

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4337667_700b_v1.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 10:29

Interestingly the BBC have just had a segment on their news covering the launch of Microsofts Surface tablet. Apart from the already covered 'crash' on launch, the tablet appeared to be greeted with underwhelming enthusiasm by the British journalists. They said the tablet certainly packs in the features, but they asked if it will scratch the 'surface' lol of Apples domination. It doesn't look as stylist on first glance and the menu system is not as aesthetically pleasing from my point of view. I'm sure people will buy it but will it be as trendy and have a cult demand like the iPad? I think they are a little late to the party myself.

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4543738_700b_v1.jpg

USB Port! Apparently Apple has never heard of it before!

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 10:30

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/26462_700b.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 10:36

Another example of Apple advertising:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4524008_700b.jpg

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/8755_700b.jpg

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 10:37

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4337667_700b_v1.jpg

:laugh:

pino

24th June 2012, 10:41

Sorry the off topic...hanners mate don't forget F1 at Valencia and England v Italy tonight ;)

:p :

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:04

**Repeat Mode**

You've said no to this first point but you are completely wrong. You can customize every screen on an iPhone and put links, folders and apps in any order you want. You can customize the bottom bar of the screen to include whatever prompts you want, be it phone, messages, twitter, music, App store etc etc etc.

I didn't say such simple stupid things on the home screen. That's basic. Can you work with widgets, change the appearance of the way it shows time, weather, temperature, put a youtube or Google search bar, a dictionary bar, put Google analytics widget which refreshes every few minutes and shows you how many visits your website had today? That's not "hacking". Simply more freedom than what iPhone allows.

Can you hack into the OS and customize it the way you can with Android? No you can't but how many people do that or at least want to do that? I don't have any need to do that. I just want a cool phone that allows me to do internet based things, phone people, and keep in touch with other methods. I don't want to develop apps, hack the OS, or fill it with stupid battery draining widgets as some form of novelty.

:laugh: Why do you keep using the word "hack"? Do you understand what hacking means? Customizing an OS is not called hacking. Getting into the source code of a program and exploit its vulnerability or change how it operates, that's what's called hacking.

Because their phones are still very desirable and people are willing to pay for their products regardless of there being better specced hardware on the market.

Yep. $800 more for an inferior laptop is perfectly justified for Apple fans.

No but you get a nicer phone from Apple.

Nicer phone my @ss.

Get an S2 then, problem solved.

Already have it, and it does things that no iPhone does.

I don't need to play games on my PC and wouldn't want to even if it was worth 2 grand. You have different needs to me so this particular point is lost on me I'm afraid.

A good gaming PC can be built for 1 grand. It's only Macs which go up to 2 grands.

You argument falls down abit there though mate doesn't it? You are frustrated because people are paying a premium for Apple products that do the same as a PC or Android phone, yet you have a problem with someone like me paying £160 for a PS3 that plays the same games as your $2000 laptop? haha. My PS3 also looks alot nicer (like Apple products do) under my TV and acts as a duel purpose device. I turn it on every couple of weeks for a quick game (I am married) and I am safe in the knowledge this limited use has not wasted hundreds of pounds of my money. ;)

Dude, you were the one taking a dig on PC gamers first. And the Dell laptop is not $2000, it cost $600 and does 10 times the things your PS3 does. ;)

Why spend all that money on a PC when a cheaper console does the same thing?

You would have to be really noobish to think a console does the same things as a PC. :p

Thats a bit of a generalization really. A friend of mine owns his own Graphics media company in Cardiff and does work for the BBC, S4C, and has even worked on ads for IBM. His client base is growing and he's very much in touch with the technology world. You can't be in that business without knowing what is the best. He has 2 MacBooks Pro's and a couple of Mac desktops in his home office and has based his whole business around it. He's not stupid, easily led, or anti PC in any way. He's just a normal guy who knows what he likes and is open to new technology much like myself.

Good for him! Does that mean all graphic design companies have Macs? NO. They're still minorities.

Also, having an Apple product doesn't mean you have the latest in technology. It just means you paid more for your product. :D

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:06

You don't need a USB port in an iPad, or at least I've never had a need as yet.

Why not? What if I'm outdoors and I wanna transfer documents to my iPad through a USB memory stick? Do I copy it first to my computer and then my iPad? How much would it have cost Apple to put one USB port on the iPad?

I think both devices suit both sides of the market. Its just Apples side is considerably bigger at this moment in time.

Tablets are just stupid, full stop. :p

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/3094859_700b.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:15

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/2371809_700b.jpg

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4502640_700b.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:16

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/213233_700b_v1.jpg

:laugh:

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:20

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/3465216_460s.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:26

Android certainly has more freedom in those respects but do you accept not everybody is bothered about such features? Widgets are the reason the batterylife of most Android devices barely last a single day without constant app killing and battery usage monitoring. The fact iPhones are so popular suggest alot of people are not bothered about clocks widgets and youtube search bars lol.

At least you have the OPTION of the widgets. You can turn them off, turn wi-fi and sync off as well and have your battery running for a week. Yeah, you're right. An under-performing, under-featured phone is more expensive than its better counterpart and people still pay the premium for the former. These are definitely tech experts.

The iPhone 4S is a nicer looking phone than the S2................................................ .......................IMO. ;)

Nicer looking my @ss. :p

My PS3 does everything I need it to do thanks. I'd still only need to play games and watch blueray films on it.

I have no gripes with the PS3 actually. Both the PS3 and Xbox360 are properly priced products, unlike the iPad. :p

That is absloute rubbish. Macs are industry standard in the graphics field. Undisputed FACT. I would bet my house on it. :)

Does your house have adequate heating henners? I don't like to get frozen in winters. :)

And while you're at it, can you show me some links proving this fact? I would happily say I'm wrong if you can somehow prove this.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:29

I hope we are not going down the route of assuming everyone who buys Apple products is gay? It might be a joke but having a few gay friends I don't like the notion being gay is somehow a form of inferiority. Please don't continue posting pics like that please. I am enjoying this debate, and don't want the thread to be pulled down to a immature level. We are doing good so far. :)

I'm not homophobic nor sexist. So, those pics are not put there with that intent.

I believe that dude in the middle is a famous singer? And since they're all wearing white and using iPads, it seemed funny enough to me.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:30

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/423743_460s.jpg

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:33

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/2750543_460s.jpg

:p

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/2335770_460s.jpg

:laugh:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/3357651_700b.jpg

ArrowsFA1

24th June 2012, 11:35

What if I'm outdoors and I wanna transfer documents to my iPad through a USB memory stick?
Then you're a bit of a silly billy then aren't you :p Given the availability of wifi and cloud storage USB is a rather clunky means of moving documents around now. It's one of the reasons why tablets are being used more, and the reason why an iPad has no need for a USB port.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 11:42

Then you're a bit of a silly billy then aren't you :p Given the availability of wifi and cloud storage USB is a rather clunky means of moving documents around now. It's one of the reasons why tablets are being used more, and the reason why an iPad has no need for a USB port.

Okay, let's say I'm in a far away village, in the middle of a jungle, on top of a mountain or in the middle of the Sahara desert, pretty much guaranteed no wifi or cloud storage, and I REALLY wanna transfer a file from someone else's USB memory stick to my iPad.

Let's say I'm out of wifi and 3G zone, and I wanna download a 4 GB file off of cloud storage. How many days would I have to wait?

A pretty useless $600 toy, isn't it?

ArrowsFA1

24th June 2012, 11:59

A pretty useless $600 toy, isn't it?
No. Works well for me for the 20, and more, reasons I listed earlier.

As you appear to work in remote villages, jungles and deserts I can see why a USB port may be essential for your needs.

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 12:02

that would be my main moan if I were ever to succumb to the temptation of getting an iPad (or getting my wife an iPad... I'm married you know :laugh: ) for surfing or media watching just because it IS cool and I can.
On the other hand, I thought you could get some sort of USB adapter?

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 12:08

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 12:18

No. Works well for me for the 20, and more, reasons I listed earlier.

As you appear to work in remote villages, jungles and deserts I can see why a USB port may be essential for your needs.

Yeah, not that it's been an industry standard on every computer, and anything related to computers, for the last 15 years, it's too much usability for the iPad.

God forbid I'm flying on a long-haul flight and my friend has a movie on his ancient doggone USB stick that I would want to watch. Hmm, fire up the laptop, copy the movie there first, then attach the iPad with the fancy white connector cable, phew, finally!

Apple probably would add $200 more for a USB port in next year's iPad.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 12:19

Apple has a solution for the iPad's missing SD card slot and USB port: adapters | TechCrunch
:dozey:
http://www.maclife.com/article/feature/seven_hidden_features_ipad_camera_connection_kit (http://techcrunch.com/2010/01/27/apple-has-a-solution-for-the-ipads-missing-sd-card-slot-and-usb-port-adapters/)

From the article:

Don’t you worry about the iPad lacking an SD card slot and USB port. Apple has you covered with adapters! How nice of Lord Jobs. Instead of building in two industry standards, users are forced to buy extra items with their new iPad. It’s not like the these standards are large and would take away from the oh-so-important design.

:laugh:

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 12:31

My proof to you would be to read industry magazines and take an interest in graphics full stop. Its one of those situations where you have to be it to know and I work in this field. I can't provide proof to you here anymore than you can provide proof you think most graphics designers use PC's. The truth is I have alot of contact with graphics people and I can only tell you what they all say. Our IT supplier(s) push Mac's for graphics and have done for a long time. In my field its all PC based but then again someone could turn around on a forum and tell me all Product designers use Mac's. I know they don't but how could I prove that opinion wrong other than through experience? Heres a couple of links but they are not regarded as firm proof and I'm not pretending they are.

Why Are Macs Better for Graphic Design? | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/about_5397553_macs-better-graphic-design.html)

Mac Vs. PC in Graphic Design | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/facts_5746128_mac-vs_-pc-graphic-design.html)

I've had enough of this for now, the GP programme has started on the BBC.. Lets hope for a McLaren win :)

LOL, two "articles" written by Apple fanboys are your solid facts? :laugh:

Industry magazines again have the same thing, opinions. Where are the cold hard facts with market data research showing a pie chart that yes, in fact Macs are used more by graphic designers? And no, I'm not talking about pseudo-artsy hipsters saying with a dopey face "Dude, I'm creative, I use a Mac."

Did you read my post a couple of posts ago as a reply to airshifter? I've been working as a web/graphic designer and video editor for the past 8+ years, and in this tenure have worked for print and media publishing companies in India, USA, UK and France. While some did have Mac as options mainly for video editing on Final Cut Pro, the majority had PCs for pretty much everything else.

Reason? A good quality Mac costs a fortune, easily $2000 +. For that money, you can build a MUCH powerful PC. And what do design software suites like Adobe CS need? Not a better looking computer, not a slicker OS, but better hardware to take care of rendering needs. In India it is easier and cheaper to hire system and network maintenance guys, who know what they're doing, and so PCs hardly ever have any problems. That's also why a lot of online-offshore graphic design companies are able to keep their rates low and see a huge number of clients from all over the world.

Anyway, not that this going around in circles isn't fun, like you said, the GP pre-show has started. Lewis and McLaren for the win!

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 12:33

You should be more organised or pay for a decent airline that includes movies in flight lol.

long haul flights (always at least business class so with plenty of in flight movies I'm not interested in lol) and sitting around in airports would be my main use for an iPad and don't worry, I would make sure to get my collection transferred beforehand.
Still doesn't make the lack of a bog standard USB port any more defensible lol.
From the article:

So it seems that the iPad is designed to milk every last penny out of buyers. You see, having a flush-mounted SD card slot would allow consumers to get away with buying the 16GB model and increasing the storage themselves. That’s clearly not in Apple’s financial favor, but it’s not like anyone expected Apple to look out for the buyer anyway. This is a dealbreaker for me.

Mark

24th June 2012, 12:37

Can I just mention that Siri is a useless pile of complete crap?

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 12:40

Yes, you can. In FACT, you just did :p

ArrowsFA1

24th June 2012, 12:42

Yeah, not that it's been an industry standard on every computer, and anything related to computers, for the last 15 years...
That doesn't mean it has to be the standard for the next 15yrs, particularly given the increasing rate at which technology advances.

Your're clearly happy with what you have, and see no need to change. Good for you :up: Enjoy the GP :)

Can I just mention that Siri is a useless pile of complete crap?
I'm with you there. Never use it.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 12:42

Can I just mention that Siri is a useless pile of complete crap?

Agreed. Although Apple can be forgiven for this, as voice recognition AI still has years of development to go before it can get even half decent.

This unrealistic ad doesn't help either:

hyQwZeCTSlI

It works perfectly to create hype though.

Mark

24th June 2012, 12:56

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 15:08

Now, the race is about to start. It's Valencia so I should be able to catch up on some sleep.
wakey wakey ! http://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gif :p

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 15:21

The two articles are opinions as much as the pictures and articles you have provided across the last pages. A self professed Android fanboy like yourself is always going to disagree and objectivity is never going to come into it. I'm in the lucky position that I am not loyal to any particular OS and have the option to choose either to suit my needs rather than living through an ideology. I don't mean offence referring to you as a 'fanboy'. I hate the word but you use it to describe yourself and others of opposing opinions.

:laugh: nice one there henners. What I have found over the last few pages is that you're SURELY not biased towards Apple in any way. :laugh:

The pictures that I posted were of course opinions, and I never claimed those to be a FACT as you claimed Macs to be the favorite for graphic designers in your post as a FACT. A pointer for the future, FACTS are not backed up with articles by Apple fanboys on ehow.com or else it completely devalues the point you're trying to make and provides such golden gems of ultimate stupidity as these.

Quoted from your first article Why Are Macs Better for Graphic Design? | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/about_5397553_macs-better-graphic-design.html)

the Mac operating system is written in a different programming language than Windows, making it less succeptible to viruses, spyware and other security issues.

While a pretty machine doesn't affect performance, it looks much better in your home office.

:rotflmao:

That has to be the stupidest article I have read in a long time. The "expert" could have at least used the spell checker on his amazing Mac to get the spelling of susceptible right. Thanks for the entertainment henners.

What part of the above line didn't you understand? This is getting rather frustrating when you haven't got the decency to read what I am writing. I didn't claim the two articles were firm proof, just that the opinion is out there. Why ignore my claim simply to turn it back on me? My text is there, why ignore it? :dozey:

I might have looked over that part, as half my concentration on the pre-race show (what a disaster BTW). But well, you don't bring eHow articles or opinions to backup what you claim to be facts. I have worked at or visited over a dozen media houses, and never have I seen Macs dominating. There's usually a solitary Mac in the video editor's office, for FCP, and that's it. The way you go gaga over Macs as the first choice for graphic designers, a noob would imagine every desk in a media publishing company would have a Mac. Not so in reality mate.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 15:29

I find the fighting over which is best just completely pointless. Not to mention branding people who buy a brand you don't like as 'snobs' or 'idiots'. It's a freaking PHONE ffs.

Personally I have an iPhone. I'm well aware of its limitations, I'm well aware of the price I paid. But it works well for me. You got a problem with that? Well that's your problem not mine.

I don't have a problem with what you or whoever else buys. Well, anyway it was no longer about the phones, more about Apple as a whole and their overpriced, under-performing products.

I'm still surprised nobody in this thread has been able to provide a logical justification for the price disparity between these two products:

MacBook Pro (http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MacBook-MD103LL-15-4-Inch-VERSION/dp/B0074712UY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1340547834&sr=8-4&keywords=apple+macbook+pro) - $1795

DELL XPS (http://www.amazon.com/Dell-X15Z-7502ELS-15-Inch-Laptop-Elemental/dp/B006LX2MOC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340547845&sr=8-1&keywords=Dell+XPS) - $960

The Macbook Pro has inferior hardware and is $800 more expensive. According to Apple fans here, is this completely OKAY?

Now, the race is about to start. It's Valencia so I should be able to catch up on some sleep.

Too bad about your sleep.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 15:41

Another thing I don't understand is people harping on about PCs getting infected or hard drives crashing.

Being perfectly honest, I have not had any such problems in the last 6 years. I have a Windows 7 installation with Avast Internet Security running trouble free since 2010. How people manage to get infected or crash their hard drivers, I have NO idea. Just don't click on shady stuff, don't download anything from shady websites or install suspicious looking software! All you've got to do is to let the Antivirus be up-to-date, and even if you insert an infected USB memory stick, it will block it!

This PC, along with my laptop, has also traveled about 10 to 12,000 kilometers around the world on an airplane. That ought to destroy the hard drive in pieces as some of the guys have been talking about, but it's been working absolutely fine.

This quad core PC that I built in 2010 (which also has an Asus Xonar 7.1 sound card) was about a $1000 cheaper than a comparable Mac. My Dell laptop cost 600 euros and a comparable Macbook Pro or Air was three times the price. That's about $2000 saved by not falling for Apple's gimmick. Think about how much more you can do with that 2 grand!

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 15:46

Think about how much more you can do with that 2 grand!

yep, I could buy a few iPads with that :bandit:

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 15:54

That doesn't mean it has to be the standard for the next 15yrs, particularly given the increasing rate at which technology advances.

Are you actually saying that now USB is too old? 3.0 just released!

No matter where technology goes, physical storage will always hold the biggest importance over remote storage, unless there's an actual cloud hovering over your head with all your data.

Cloud storage is all good until there's an outage. Then you're screwed if all your important files are on a "cloud" and there's a thunderstorm outside.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 15:55

yep, I could buy a few iPads with that :bandit:

:rotflmao:

BTW, congrats on Alonso's win. :mad:

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 15:56

cheers cap'n :up:

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 16:10

It is in the UK. Macs are the industry standard for Graphics in my country. I will repeat that again and again. I did not provide 2 articles and claim them to be solid proof of fact. I made that very clear in 2 posts now! I provided them to illustrate the opinion is out there F F S.

Well then, for those two articles, I can show you a thousand articles showing why PC is better than Mac in every area possible. You can add the 10-15 pictures in this thread to that as well.

Now, I'm quite bored of this back and forth, if you and other Apple fans on here would just answer my earlier question below, that'd be great:

I'm still surprised nobody in this thread has been able to provide a logical justification for the price disparity between these two products:

MacBook Pro (http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MacBook-MD103LL-15-4-Inch-VERSION/dp/B0074712UY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1340547834&sr=8-4&keywords=apple+macbook+pro) - $1795

DELL XPS (http://www.amazon.com/Dell-X15Z-7502ELS-15-Inch-Laptop-Elemental/dp/B006LX2MOC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340547845&sr=8-1&keywords=Dell+XPS) - $960

The Macbook Pro has inferior hardware and is $800 more expensive. According to Apple fans here, is this completely OKAY?

race aficionado

24th June 2012, 16:28

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 16:33

Right to end this I will give my honest opinion to your question. I believe the MacBook is a nicer all-round laptop, it has a lovely OS that is clean, easy to use and intuitive. They look nicer on my lap or on a desk and provide alot more enjoyment than a comparable PC IMO. Now my opinion may not be inline with yours, but many people feel the same as me and many people buy Apple computers. I unfortunately couldn't afford an Apple computer and ended up with a crappy Dell which I am fighting to get repaired under warranty, although my wife has a MacBook which I am able to use. If I had a MacBook personally, chances are it wouldn't have failed so soon and I would be looking at having a straight replacement from the Apple store based on previous excellent customer service from there. I would rather settle for an Apple computer that isn't quite as powerful and enjoy the experience, than use a powerfull PC that frustrates me. Its my personal opinion and you don't have to agree. I know I am right in my own mind and its clear I will not be convinced otherwise.

I think this debate has finally exhausted. Maybe we can discuss the features of new and up and coming phones from now on? I have nothing more to say at the moment, so ta ta for now. :wave:

Okay, so $800 extra for a laptop of inferior spec is fine with you, as long as it's an Apple Macbook. Okay, got it. I guess this is where the discussion ends.

I would quite like to enjoy my Sunday evening now after the crap race. Ta ta to you too. :wave: :)

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 16:40

I'm face timing with my son in Switzerland.
Wifi to wifi, no extra charges, great picture quality, way cool!

*notice I'm not saying my face time is better and cheaper than what your phone offers, I'm just expressing my satisfaction and enthusiasm for this cool technology feature.
:)

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4341993_220x145.jpg

Good to know you're enjoying some good weekend time with your son race. :up:

But video-calling has been working on every half-decent computer, laptop for the last decade, and smartphones (Apple or Android) over the last several years, and there have been quite a few apps pretty handy for it, especially Skype's own app.

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 16:43

Before I log-off, thought to put some other funny stuff that I came across. :p

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/3215486_460s.jpg

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4467395_700b.jpg

Mark

24th June 2012, 17:54

And the point of laughing at other peoples purchase choices is?

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 18:30

None.

Unless it's a Fiat 500 :erm: :arrows: :andrea: :p

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 19:43

And the point of laughing at other peoples purchase choices is?

If you feel bad about your purchase, that's your problem.

I'm laughing at jokes made on Apple. :)

You gotta admit, they are quite funny. :D

CaptainRaiden

24th June 2012, 19:44

None.

Unless it's a Fiat 500 :erm: :arrows: :andrea: :p

Crap car. Can get more horsepower with lesser money in other cars. :p

ioan

24th June 2012, 22:59

Can I just mention that Siri is a useless pile of complete crap?

Just like 90% of the Apple products. ;)

ioan

24th June 2012, 23:05

Well, I see you people are having a fun fiesta around here! :D

For all the stick that CaptainRaiden is getting, and let's be honest I would like to bash him a bit too, he is pretty much spot on about Apple products.

Don't get me (completely) wrong, the Apple products are doing what they are meant to do which is make some people feel happy with their new toys that they can use to phone, surf the internet ( - flash based sites), watch some vids and pics, read the news and oh well that's pretty much all you can do with an apple product without losing time compared to other tools that are available and are also cheaper.

I had to LOL pretty loud when Arrows kept mentioning the use of cloud instead of USB, I take it he doesn't leave home often.

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 06:05

I think you misunderstood what Mark said there. He didn't hint at feeling bad about his purchase at all. Sorry still reading this thread and thought I'd jump in before anyone else points this out. :)

How sweet. :)

To be clear, I'm not laughing at Apple customers, just Apple and their ridiculous marketing. As you can see, I didn't make those funny pics. A lot of other people did and the internet is full of such Apple jokes, and so a mass proportion of the crowd finds them ridiculous. I'm just posting them here for fun. No need to get touchy about it, unless it makes you look at your iPad in a different way. :p

Hey henners, did you have your iWater today? :p

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 06:21

Well, I see you people are having a fun fiesta around here! :D

For all the stick that CaptainRaiden is getting, and let's be honest I would like to bash him a bit too, he is pretty much spot on about Apple products.

Thanks ioan. :mad:

I had to LOL pretty loud when Arrows kept mentioning the use of cloud instead of USB, I take it he doesn't leave home often.

IMO cloud storage is the future, but its practicality makes sense only in a much, MUCH distant future. And regardless of how far ahead we go into the future, it will always remain a secondary option and can never replace physical storage completely, UNLESS you have standard wi-fi of at least 300-500 MBPS across the country at every corner and at every remote place, which to implement will take decades, especially in the not-so-rich countries.

Apple and some other companies have hyped it up very well, and a lot of people have bought into the idea without thinking about some key things:

1. It is not secure. Hackers will have a field day with people's personal files.
2. It is fine for small documents, but you're screwed if you have to download anything bigger than a few 100 MBs outside the wi-fi or 3G zone.
3. It would to have be extremely robust and reliable, meaning no internet outages pretty much ever, just like physical storage.
4. At this moment, it is expensive, slow AND unreliable.

So, yes, premium products like the iPad, for $600, needs to have the most basic industry standard, and that is a simple USB port and hell, even an HDMI port.

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 07:58

"Apple products are only good for making people feel happy, surfing the net, and looking good, but run slow?".... Right ok :p ..... This thread is amusing, keep it going, convince me Apple are rubbish, nobody has succeeded yet ;)

Well, if I'm paying $800 more for inferior hardware, they better not be rubbish, make my breakfast, clean my shoes AND drive me to work!

Unfortunately they do none of that. :p

ArrowsFA1

25th June 2012, 08:25

...the iPad needs to have the most basic industry standard, and that is a simple USB port...
Not in my experience. If you need a tablet with a USB port then the Microsoft Surface should suit your needs at (it is rumoured (http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/tablets/microsoft-surface-tablet-prices-leaked-1086657)) between $599-$999.

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 09:04

$400 extra for a USB port on the side??? Microsoft will probably charge $200 more just to have flash if it isn't already included like they always do :p :)

Still a better tablet than iPad. :p

I believe henners you misread it wrong. Because their base model already has a USB port AND an HDMI port, which would retail between $550 to $600, similar to the entry level iPad at 16 GB, it also has a similar mobile processor. The difference is the Surface has double the capacity at 32 GB. Oh, and surprise surprise! It also has a MicroSD slot (another huge limitation of Apple products), so you can slide in a 64 GB microSD card and get the capacity up to 96 GB. 96 GB on a tablet for $600!! Apple doesn't get it. :p

For the $999 model (called Surface Pro), you get a much faster Intel Core i5 processor, 128 GB capacity (expandable to 192 GB) of course, Windows 8, USB 3.0 and a Minidisplay port (which you actually only get on a $1000 more expensive Macbook pro), which is amazing value for money considering how less you get from the similarly priced iPad 64GB version (http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MC756LL-Wi-Fi-Verizon-NEWEST/dp/B00746VYVC/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1340610648&sr=8-6&keywords=new+ipad+64gb). :) Source: Amazon.com

ArrowsFA1

25th June 2012, 10:18

Oh, and surprise surprise! It also has a MicroSD slot (another huge limitation of Apple products)...
Nope, never experienced that as being a limitation either :)

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 10:22

Microsoft Surface vs. iPad: 10 Reasons to Ditch Apple`s Tablet - Mobile and Wireless - News & Reviews - eWeek.com (http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/Microsoft-Surface-vs-iPad-10-Reasons-to-Ditch-Apples-Tablet-556394/)

Microsoft Surface Vs iPad: 5 Reasons Why You Should Ditch Apple - iTech Post (http://www.itechpost.com/articles/2975/20120623/microsoft-surface-vs-ipad-5-reasons-why.htm)

Finally a proper tablet, which can be called a netbook or even a notebook alternative.

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 10:27

Nope, never experienced that as being a limitation either :)

Not for you, but for a lot of other people, yes, 16 GB is too less for $600. People complained, Microsoft listened.

Don't be surprised if the next iPad has proper connector ports and more storage.

Jag_Warrior

25th June 2012, 11:58

So, what Apple essentially is, is a fancy premium brand for people who don't really care what's inside their computer as long as it works.

I would say that's an overly simplistic way of trying to summarize Apple Corporation and its success. Pointing out one possible factor for a company's success, and then trying to claim that that is the only reason, is a slippery logical slope in my world. But when ideology is involved, people do attempt it from time to time. It usually results in a bad fall (or fail) though.

As far as the Corvette vs Ferrari comparison, aren't most of the Corvettes made out of plastic? It was only recently with the ZR1 that they went the aluminum-carbon fiber route. At least with Ferrari, you don't have to worry about that as they've long been made entirely out of carbon fiber. So, when you buy a Ferrari, you get the marquee name (I don't see Corvette or Chevrolet being a big name in racing, and so what Ferrari is essentially charging you for is to fund their F1 program :p ), + you get "slightly" better performance + the assurance that you'll probably be alive in case of an accident.

So, there are pluses.

I'm not a Corvette expert, but I believe certain portions of the Corvette's body are made from fiber reinforced plastic. But why would one need to worry more about that? :confused: If you crash either one (FRP or carbon fiber), you're going to spend a mint to fix either one. And if there is actual data showing the Ferrari 458 to be a safer car than the Corvette (Z06 or ZR1), I'm not aware of it. But I seriously doubt that's a concern for most sports car buyers anyway. Both cars have well engineered survival cells and both are at least reasonably safe, to the best of my knowledge. As for neither Corvette nor Chevrolet being a big name in racing... uh... well... the last time I checked, Chevrolet was pretty big in NASCAR and Corvette has been doing more than OK at Le Mans over the past decade. But is Ferrari the biggest name in racing? Yes, it's one of the biggest name in all of sports. Establishing brand value is important to any and all consumer focused companies.

So, you have actually not gotten around to using smartphones yet. Do me a favor and use Galaxy S2 and iPhone 4S with an unbiased view, and tell me why Apple deserves the extra $150.

No, I have no desire for a smartphone currently - although I do have a 4th gen iPod Touch. My girlfriend has an iPhone 4, which replaced her previous iPhone. I've used hers many times. To me it's a telephone version of my iPod Touch. Big whoop! It's a phone. Unless the Samsung S2, S3 or S10 will be able to make me breakfast and rub my feet at night, they're just phones too. I've played with lots of smartphones, including the Blackberry that I refused to use when a former company issued it to me. I opted for a feature flip phone. In what I do, and being established enough, if one needs to communicate with me when I'm out of the office, I expect one to call me... not text me or send me a Blackberry message. I do not respond to text messages. I gave up the feature phone when I left that company, and with my personal cell phone being truly ancient now, sooner than later, I know that I'll have to get a new phone. Since I'm already in the iOS ecosystem, the iPhone would be an easy choice. But maybe I'll just get another dumb phone. I don't know. It won't change my life either way. I'll put more thought into what my next car will be than what my next phone will be.

No doubt, Apple products are considered trouble-free by some. But hey, you go clicking on naughtykitty.biz or on an ad that says "You've won the lottery", I don't care if it's OS X Pantelionepard, your computer WILL get infected.

I'm not an IT guy. I can't tell you specifically why various corporate IT depts have banned Android devices from their networks. But since I'm assuming that naughtykitty.biz, and other such sites, are already blocked, I sort of doubt that has anything to do with it. It apparently has more to do with the prevalence of malware within apps in the Android community.

I saw a Macbook Air on sale a couple of days ago:
Older generation (Nehalem architecture) - 2.3 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 processor
4GB DDR3 RAM; 500 GB Hard Drive
15.4 inch LED-backlit display, 1440-by-900 resolution
NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 512MB Graphics
Mac OS X v10.7 Lion, 7 Hour Battery Life
Price: $1794

I also saw a Dell XPS at the same shop:
Newer Generation (Sandy Bridge Architecture) Intel Core i7 2640M Processor 2.8GHz
6GB DIMM RAM; 750GB 7200RPM Hard Drive
15.6-Inch Screen, 1400X900 resolution
NVIDIA GeForce GT 525M - 1 GB Graphics
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Price: $959.99

Please tell me why, for inferior hardware, the Macbook deserves the extra $800. Thanks. :)

The easy answer is that consumer demand justifies both price points. That's just how it works. And the big (interesting) difference is, the higher priced product is still flying off the shelves, while the lower priced product continues to struggle. If I'm not mistaken, Dell has fallen on rather hard times of late and has experienced some inventory, customer service, sales and revenue issues over the past 3-5 years. Rather than worrying about why Apple is able to (successfully) charge so much, maybe the better question would be, why can't Dell move these *superior* products while charging so much less? Maybe the perception of the consumer (the only perception that matters) is that they're actually not so superior after all. But I really don't know... that's for the guys in marketing to figure out. I just remember when both Dell and Apple were $50 stocks though. Now AAPL is around $580 and DELL is around $12. I would suggest that the Dell guys try to figure out what they've done wrong and what Apple has done right... and not the other way around. Remember, Dell once had a really good brand name too. How times have changed. Remember this? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyQOTEpHxLw

ArrowsFA1

25th June 2012, 12:03

People complained, Microsoft listened.
That would have been very altruistic of Microsoft if true.

Bottom line is they need to be in the tablet market. With millions being sold, the majority of them iPads, they simply cannot afford to be left behind. Whether they've got it right only time will tell, but pursuading iPad users to switch will be a hard task.

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 14:12

I would say that's an overly simplistic way of trying to summarize Apple Corporation and its success. Pointing out one possible factor for a company's success, and then trying to claim that that is the only reason, is a slippery logical slope in my world. But when ideology is involved, people do attempt it from time to time. It usually results in a bad fall (or fail) though.

The term "over-simplistic" is used a couple of times by you in this thread. First of all, I assume and it seems like I'm the only person in this thread who cares about what tech goes into the gadgets I buy, who can build his own PC, and miraculously keep Dell products running without any failures, so in my opinion, buying Apple products and paying close to 50% more money just because "it works" without looking at what you're getting inside the box is rather noobish and "over-simplistic" as well.

I have assembled enough PCs and conversed with enough tech people to know how criminal Apple's premium really is. I have put forth tech questions in this thread, and instead of valid answers, all I've gotten is "I don't care bout the hardware", "It looks nicer" and "It's convenient and easier to use." I can't believe people are actually justifying $800 extra for inferior hardware to be okay. How much more can an OS do if the hardware isn't up there? Ever thought about that?

I'm not a Corvette expert, but I believe certain portions of the Corvette's body are made from fiber reinforced plastic. But why would one need to worry more about that? :confused: If you crash either one (FRP or carbon fiber), you're going to spend a mint to fix either one. And if there is actual data showing the Ferrari 458 to be a safer car than the Corvette (Z06 or ZR1), I'm not aware of it. But I seriously doubt that's a concern for most sports car buyers anyway. Both cars have well engineered survival cells and both are at least reasonably safe, to the best of my knowledge. As for neither Corvette nor Chevrolet being a big name in racing... uh... well... the last time I checked, Chevrolet was pretty big in NASCAR and Corvette has been doing more than OK at Le Mans over the past decade. But is Ferrari the biggest name in racing? Yes, it's one of the biggest name in all of sports. Establishing brand value is important to any and all consumer focused companies.

I believe the majority of Z06's body is made out of plastic. Isn't carbon fiber at least 10 times more resistant than plastic in case of a crash? Isn't that why all F1 cars or any high performance racing machines are entirely built out of carbon fiber. It's not about how much you'll spend to fix it, it's about safety and whether that steering wheel is going to go through your chest or not. Do you get a better quality engine, gearbox, paddle shifters with the Ferrari? Probably yes. So, I'd say inside and outside, you still get more with the Ferrari even for double the price.

But like I have posted my comparison a few posts ago, with the Macbook, you actually get inferior hardware. The graphic card in the Macbook Pro for $1795 is exactly half of the one in the $959 Dell XPS. 512 MB vs 1 GB, and GPU memory plays a BIG role in any graphic intensive task on a computer. So, for the extra $800, I am getting an inferior product.

No, I have no desire for a smartphone currently - although I do have a 4th gen iPod Touch. My girlfriend has an iPhone 4, which replaced her previous iPhone. I've used hers many times. To me it's a telephone version of my iPod Touch. Big whoop! It's a phone. Unless the Samsung S2, S3 or S10 will be able to make me breakfast and rub my feet at night, they're just phones too. I've played with lots of smartphones, including the Blackberry that I refused to use when a former company issued it to me. I opted for a feature flip phone. In what I do, and being established enough, if one needs to communicate with me when I'm out of the office, I expect one to call me... not text me or send me a Blackberry message. I do not respond to text messages. I gave up the feature phone when I left that company, and with my personal cell phone being truly ancient now, sooner than later, I know that I'll have to get a new phone. Since I'm already in the iOS ecosystem, the iPhone would be an easy choice. But maybe I'll just get another dumb phone. I don't know. It won't change my life either way. I'll put more thought into what my next car will be than what my next phone will be.

Well, since you have never extensively compared nor used a smartphone, then you can't really comment on whether the iPhone is better or even know how Apple is charging its customers silly money and once again, providing an inferior product. Without going into too many details, the Galaxy S2 was universally regarded as the phone of the year 2011 by experts all over the world, and the only phone to receive a 5/5 rating at techradar.com where even the "amazing" iPhone 4S got 4/5. Yet it is $150 cheaper than the iPhone 4S, and the sheep mentality of Apple customers kept it above by a hair.

I'm not an IT guy. I can't tell you specifically why various corporate IT depts have banned Android devices from their networks. But since I'm assuming that naughtykitty.biz, and other such sites, are already blocked, I sort of doubt that has anything to do with it. It apparently has more to do with the prevalence of malware within apps in the Android community.

I seriously don't know how these folks get infected. I've been using Windows for the last decade and a half, and Android products for the last 3 years. I've got Avast on my PC and AVG on my phone, and I have installed possibly over 200 applications and games on my computer and mobile combined. Not once have I got even one error, and I'm not the most anal guy when it comes to security. One would have to be REALLY careless to get infected or have the hard drive crash on them.

The easy answer is that consumer demand justifies both price points. That's just how it works. And the big (interesting) difference is, the higher priced product is still flying off the shelves, while the lower priced product continues to struggle. If I'm not mistaken, Dell has fallen on rather hard times of late and has experienced some inventory, customer service, sales and revenue issues over the past 3-5 years. Rather than worrying about why Apple is able to (successfully) charge so much, maybe the better question would be, why can't Dell move these *superior* products while charging so much less? Maybe the perception of the consumer (the only perception that matters) is that they're actually not so superior after all. But I really don't know... that's for the guys in marketing to figure out. I just remember when both Dell and Apple were $50 stocks though. Now AAPL is around $580 and DELL is around $12. I would suggest that the Dell guys try to figure out what they've done wrong and what Apple has done right... and not the other way around. Remember, Dell once had a really good brand name too. How times have changed. Remember this? :)

I really can't believe people are trying to justify Apple charging $800 extra for inferior hardware. It's just amazing.

Second, you can't really compare Apple and Dell. Apple deals in smartphones, tablets, desktop PCs, laptops, MP3 players, set-top video interfacing like Apple TV etc. Whereas Dell is really one of the many PC vendors with their main business being only desktop PCs and laptops. So, of course their revenues are ALWAYS going to be MUCH lesser than Apple's. If you look at only the laptop and desktop sales, they are quite close.

Besides, Dell is only one of the many PC vendors, and might be Apple's main competitor in America, but that doesn't mean people don't buy desktops or laptops from a number of other PC vendors like HP, Sony, Acer, LG, Samsung, ASUS, MSI, Toshiba all around the world. On top of this, people who really know their stuff, prefer to build their own PC, which usually is close to $1000 to $1500 cheaper than a comparable iMac and does all of the same things. If you pool ALL of the PC vendor sales, it trumps Apple quite easily.

The worldwide OS share statistics is 60% Windows and 9% Mac as of April 2012. So, while Apple MAY have sold more laptops than Dell last year in America, it's a luxury brand for rich people and is nowhere near competing with PCs all over the world.

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 14:22

That would have been very altruistic of Microsoft if true.

Bottom line is they need to be in the tablet market. With millions being sold, the majority of them iPads, they simply cannot afford to be left behind. Whether they've got it right only time will tell, but pursuading iPad users to switch will be a hard task.

Well, lack of connectivity, lack of storage and lack of expandable memory were one of the biggest gripes of tech-lovers regarding the iPad, which kept it from becoming a true replacement of notebooks.

And Microsoft have clearly included all of those features in their tablet while keeping the thickness the same as the iPad. I say good on them!

ArrowsFA1

25th June 2012, 16:42

Approximately 119 million tablets will reach consumers’ hands around the world this year, up from 60 million in 2011...Of those 119 million tablets, approximately 73 million, or 61%, will be iPads...despite increased competition from the likes of Amazon and Microsoft.
http://mashable.com/2012/04/11/tablet-sales-gartner/

That's one heck of a market to break for Microsoft. Good luck to them!

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 16:50

http://mashable.com/2012/04/11/tablet-sales-gartner/

That's one heck of a market to break for Microsoft. Good luck to them!

Well, they just gotta keep advertising all the advantages the Surface has over the iPad, and they'll get there eventually.

I'm guessing a lot of netbook and notebook users who were hesitant before to switch to a tablet because it didn't have what they were looking for, might switch to the Surface or the more powerful Surface Pro.

I'm surprised iPad only has a 61% market share. I would have thought it'd be at least over 75%. Android is catching up fast, and with their new tablet optimized OS coming up over the next few months, if top electronics giants like Samsung and Sony come up with better tablets, it could be a tough battle.

Dave B

25th June 2012, 18:33

For me (and I fully accept that other's views may vary) a tablet needs to have an SD slot and HDMI out as essentials - not via clunky adaptors.

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 20:17

People like me you mean? So its my fault my 6 month olf Dell laptop has developed a HD failure? I can assure you I don't look at midget porn and download from gore sites whilst having no protection on my PC. I have used AVG for years and my laptop scans everytime I use it. I have anti malware software running and treat my computer very well thank you. Just because this hasn't happened to you and you are superior to me because I don't build computers, it does not mean it can't happen. I had my Acer laptop for 5 years and never had a fault, I don't tell Acer customers that the only reason their computers break is because they are careless and because it never happened to me!! lol. No product is fullproof and they do fail, thats life.

Well, I must be REALLY lucky then, because my current Dell laptop is 6-8 months older than yours and is still running on the Win 7 install I did when I bought it. My 4 years old Dell is being used by my sister now, and as far as I can remember, she doesn't have a problem. My 7 year old Sony Vaio is being used by my father as an at-home printer to print stuff for his business, and to Skype with me when I'm away.

In my experience, the only time I had a hard drive failure, I'd have to say was 14 years ago when my ancient PC was running Windows 98, which developed bad sectors probably because of power outages and the fact that I wasn't using surge protectors.

Apart from that, honestly man, I've been super lucky with hard drives. :)

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 20:27

They've got to appeal to the young generation mainly I think. Apple are very good with their marketing and appeal has grown because Apple make nice trendy looking devices that are cool. The iPad has also developed as a cult product and the name is firmly established as the number one tablet on the market. Microsoft can pack it with features and beat Apple on hardware and price, but that doesn't mean people will buy it.

It won't happen overnight, but IMO iPad's market share will decrease significantly over the next few years. It has dropped significantly already since 2010, which was a surprise for me.

Logically it would make sense to have better hardware for the money, but thats not at the top of everybodies list. Its like telling a kid that a pair of 'Gola' trainers does the same thing as a pair of 'Nike Air Max' for a fraction of the price. Just wait for their eyebrows to bolt up and tell you they are not trendy enough and all their friends will laugh at them.

Yeah, the thing is that we are not children anymore, and I don't buy stuff to impress anybody else anymore. I want the best tech for my money, and that's why I don't buy Apple. :p

The kid inside me does want the Galaxy S3 though, even though I don't need it, but it's still the most advanced smartphone money can buy right now, and so I might end up getting it. :D

An iPad may be inferior on some levels and I agree the Surface looks a damn fine device, but if its not popular and quickly, it'll fail. Its a massive gamble for Microsoft and I think they will succeed to a degree, but I think market domination is a big ask. But thats just my opinion :)

The hardware they've crammed in there is one half of the success pie, which as a non-tablet fan, impressed even me. But the other crucial half depends on their OS.

Jag_Warrior

25th June 2012, 20:54

The term "over-simplistic" is used a couple of times by you in this thread. First of all, I assume and it seems like I'm the only person in this thread who cares about what tech goes into the gadgets I buy, who can build his own PC, and miraculously keep Dell products running without any failures, so in my opinion, buying Apple products and paying close to 50% more money just because "it works" without looking at what you're getting inside the box is rather noobish and "over-simplistic" as well.

I'm not trying to be insulting by using the term "overly simplistic". And I'm not dismissing your opinion... but it is just that: an opinion. I'm just saying that trying to condense a company's success or failure into a pejorative one-liner does indicate (IMO) an overly simplistic approach.

I have assembled enough PCs and conversed with enough tech people to know how criminal Apple's premium really is. I have put forth tech questions in this thread, and instead of valid answers, all I've gotten is "I don't care bout the hardware", "It looks nicer" and "It's convenient and easier to use." I can't believe people are actually justifying $800 extra for inferior hardware to be okay. How much more can an OS do if the hardware isn't up there? Ever thought about that?

So just as I have a deep fascination for business and economics, it seems that you have a similar interest in technology. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you seem to be trying to use your knowledge of technology to extrapolate a market opinion on why people make the choices they make.

I believe the majority of Z06's body is made out of plastic. Isn't carbon fiber at least 10 times more resistant than plastic in case of a crash? Isn't that why all F1 cars or any high performance racing machines are entirely built out of carbon fiber. It's not about how much you'll spend to fix it, it's about safety and whether that steering wheel is going to go through your chest or not. Do you get a better quality engine, gearbox, paddle shifters with the Ferrari? Probably yes. So, I'd say inside and outside, you still get more with the Ferrari even for double the price.

Carbon fiber, ounce for ounce, is stronger and less flexible than FRP. But neither car (to my knowledge) uses a carbon fiber chassis. Both use aluminum and/or aluminum alloys. Most formula race cars these days have carbon fiber chassis. It is the chassis that houses the survival cell. The body has little to do with the safety of the vehicle. So I fail to understand what what a carbon fiber body has to do with a steering wheel going through your chest.

But like I have posted my comparison a few posts ago, with the Macbook, you actually get inferior hardware. The graphic card in the Macbook Pro for $1795 is exactly half of the one in the $959 Dell XPS. 512 MB vs 1 GB, and GPU memory plays a BIG role in any graphic intensive task on a computer. So, for the extra $800, I am getting an inferior product.

If that is your opinion, then I'm fine with that. So why wouldn't you just buy the product that you believe is a better buy and be happy? :)

Well, since you have never extensively compared nor used a smartphone, then you can't really comment on whether the iPhone is better or even know how Apple is charging its customers silly money and once again, providing an inferior product. Without going into too many details, the Galaxy S2 was universally regarded as the phone of the year 2011 by experts all over the world, and the only phone to receive a 5/5 rating at techradar.com where even the "amazing" iPhone 4S got 4/5. Yet it is $150 cheaper than the iPhone 4S, and the sheep mentality of Apple customers kept it above by a hair.

So using that logic, then I can assume that you have both a Ferrari 458 and a Corvette ZR1 parked in your garage? :D

I seriously don't know how these folks get infected. I've been using Windows for the last decade and a half, and Android products for the last 3 years. I've got Avast on my PC and AVG on my phone, and I have installed possibly over 200 applications and games on my computer and mobile combined. Not once have I got even one error, and I'm not the most anal guy when it comes to security. One would have to be REALLY careless to get infected or have the hard drive crash on them.

You might be a statistical anomaly. Anecdotals don't tell us much about the total population.

I really can't believe people are trying to justify Apple charging $800 extra for inferior hardware. It's just amazing.

It's less about justifying and more about trying to give you some sort of answer to your question. That you may not like the answer is a separate matter. Sorry.

Second, you can't really compare Apple and Dell. Apple deals in smartphones, tablets, desktop PCs, laptops, MP3 players, set-top video interfacing like Apple TV etc. Whereas Dell is really one of the many PC vendors with their main business being only desktop PCs and laptops. So, of course their revenues are ALWAYS going to be MUCH lesser than Apple's. If you look at only the laptop and desktop sales, they are quite close.

I remember that Dell has tried to compete in all of those areas as well. It's just that it didn't work out so well... and now they've exited some of those businesses.

Besides, Dell is only one of the many PC vendors, and might be Apple's main competitor in America, but that doesn't mean people don't buy desktops or laptops from a number of other PC vendors like HP, Sony, Acer, LG, Samsung, ASUS, MSI, Toshiba all around the world. On top of this, people who really know their stuff, prefer to build their own PC, which usually is close to $1000 to $1500 cheaper than a comparable iMac and does all of the same things. If you pool ALL of the PC vendor sales, it trumps Apple quite easily.

The worldwide OS share statistics is 60% Windows and 9% Mac as of April 2012. So, while Apple MAY have sold more laptops than Dell last year in America, it's a luxury brand for rich people and is nowhere near competing with PCs all over the world.

You brought up Ferrari, so let's continue with that example. What was Ferrari's worldwide market share last year? Can we agree that it was probably less than 1%... substantially less than 1%? But in an industry paper that I read a couple of years ago, Ferrari was the most profitable automotive division in the world. The reason for that is Ferrari focuses on margins. Dell, on the other hand, focuses more on volumes. Others focus on margins. Apple is currently in the enviable position of being able to focus on both. Because the market demand for Apple products (including PC's) is what it is, Apple, unlike Dell, has no real inventory or margin concerns. The PC business is still very tough. And (IMO) part of the reason for that is the number of companies competing at the low end. And further, I really think it's those low end, generic computers that hurt the brands of many of these PC OEM's.

It's not my place to argue the superiority or inferiority of one brand over another. We all have opinions. Although I may be able to find logical explanations for how a company has succeeded or failed - since that's pretty much what I do for a living. ;) If you like to build your own computers, I think that's very cool. But I'll be really honest with you, to say that Apple is just a brand for rich people... if you'll consider the mathematical impossibility of that statement, it might unwind you a bit. With something like 50% of U.S. households having at least one Apple product... uh... Captain, there are not that many rich people in the U.S. That is, unless you want to define "rich" as someone who just has a job and a place to live. What would the Occupy Wall St. kids do if they had to contend with The 50%'ers? :eek:

Why not just enjoy whatever works for you and stop worrying about the decisions that others make? Why do you care what brand of phone or computer someone else has, as long as you're not paying for it? Whether it's cars or computers, I've never really understood why some get so wound up about the purchasing decisions of others. :confused: It's fine to discuss tech and whatever else. But remember, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

CaptainRaiden

25th June 2012, 21:43

I'm not trying to be insulting by using the term "overly simplistic". And I'm not dismissing your opinion... but it is just that: an opinion. I'm just saying that trying to condense a company's success or failure into a pejorative one-liner does indicate (IMO) an overly simplistic approach.

I'm not denying that Apple do make products that are desirable for a lot of people. What I don't understand is their ridiculously high markup.

So just as I have a deep fascination for business and economics, it seems that you have a similar interest in technology. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you seem to be trying to use your knowledge of technology to extrapolate a market opinion on why people make the choices they make.

Since I am interested in technology, I like to know what's inside my product, what am I paying for, and so paying ridiculous markup for inferior products seems almost like a sin to me.

Carbon fiber, ounce for ounce, is stronger and less flexible than FRP. But neither car (to my knowledge) uses a carbon fiber chassis. Both use aluminum and/or aluminum alloys. Most formula race cars these days have carbon fiber chassis. It is the chassis that houses the survival cell. The body has little to do with the safety of the vehicle. So I fail to understand what what a carbon fiber body has to do with a steering wheel going through your chest.

I don't know either car's crash test rating, but I'm assuming that for the money that Ferrari charge, it would probably fare better in that. Hey, either way, if I had the money to buy a Ferrari, I'd buy a Corvette, a Nissan GT-R and a Kawasaki Ninja for that money. Performance and sensible purchase means more than aesthetics or a brand name to me.

If that is your opinion, then I'm fine with that. So why wouldn't you just buy the product that you believe is a better buy and be happy?

It's not just an opinion, it's a fact. Double the GPU memory means faster rendering of videos and animations, better quality gaming and smoother playback of HD movies on a huge TV. So, with almost 90% more money, i.e. $800, why am I getting shortchanged?

Also, I don't think you've quite paid attention to my posts on this thread here. I'm not asking people why they buy Apple products or that my purchases are better. I'm trying to understand, in a discussion forum, why are Apple products so much more expensive and offer so little. So far very little valid answers. They're not the top dog, because Windows dominates the world market. Their products are not the best performing either, benchmark tests say otherwise for comparable PC products.

So using that logic, then I can assume that you have both a Ferrari 458 and a Corvette ZR1 parked in your garage? :D

I wish. :D

You might be a statistical anomaly. Anecdotals don't tell us much about the total population.

Or maybe just really lucky with my PC hardware. I'm careful about what I install and do little maintenance and a few optimizations, but that's it. So, I really can't quite understand why people harp about PC problems.

It's less about justifying and more about trying to give you some sort of answer to your question. That you may not like the answer is a separate matter. Sorry.

I'm sorry, but $800 more for inferior hardware just cannot be explained, justified or have a legit answer that'd make sense, not in this dimension at least. :)

I remember that Dell has tried to compete in all of those areas as well. It's just that it didn't work out so well... and now they've exited some of those businesses.

And that's exactly why Dell cannot be compared to Apple. While both of them do source hardware from other companies, Dell has always been more of a hardware assembler than someone like Apple making integrated systems with their own OS. The range of Dell products is also too limited to really stack up against Apple.

You brought up Ferrari, so let's continue with that example. What was Ferrari's worldwide market share last year? Can we agree that it was probably less than 1%... substantially less than 1%? But in an industry paper that I read a couple of years ago, Ferrari was the most profitable automotive division in the world. The reason for that is Ferrari focuses on margins. Dell, on the other hand, focuses more on volumes. Others focus on margins. Apple is currently in the enviable position of being able to focus on both. Because the market demand for Apple products (including PC's) is what it is, Apple, unlike Dell, has no real inventory or margin concerns. The PC business is still very tough. And (IMO) part of the reason for that is the number of companies competing at the low end. And further, I really think it's those low end, generic computers that hurt the brands of many of these PC OEM's.

They aren't low end computers. Apple uses a subset of PC hardware, and so CPUs and GPUs are pretty much identical made by Intel, Nvidia and AMD, which are actually the meat of the processing power. The only real difference is in the operating system, peripherals and aesthetics, for which Apple charges the ridiculous markup. I have worked on both PC and Mac, and honestly don't find anything special in a Mac. While Mac OS X looks smoother, Windows 7 is a much more feature rich, application rich, gaming rich and versatile OS. While it takes some knowledge to setup a PC, Macs work out of the box, but that doesn't mean they deserve on average $700 to $800 more money. Convenience shouldn't be that expensive.

It's not my place to argue the superiority or inferiority of one brand over another. We all have opinions. Although I may be able to find logical explanations for how a company has succeeded or failed - since that's pretty much what I do for a living. ;) If you like to build your own computers, I think that's very cool. But I'll be really honest with you, to say that Apple is just a brand for rich people... if you'll consider the mathematical impossibility of that statement, it might unwind you a bit. With something like 50% of U.S. households having at least one Apple product... uh... Captain, there are not that many rich people in the U.S. That is, unless you want to define "rich" as someone who just has a job and a place to live. What would the Occupy Wall St. kids do if they had to contend with The 50%'ers? :eek:

Well, even with the economy crunch, there is a bigger ratio of rich folks in USA than possibly any other country on this planet, and that's why Apple's biggest market is the USA followed by other rich countries. There is a reason why it doesn't sell in poorer countries, because people have to learn a little about computers to save a lot of money.

Mark

26th June 2012, 09:19

I'm not denying that Apple do make products that are desirable for a lot of people. What I don't understand is their ridiculously high markup.

What's to understand? It's simple market economics of charging as much as the market will bear. You may think that the price of a product is made up of material and construction costs + a margin for profit, but that's never been the case for any product, not just confined to Apple.

Mark

26th June 2012, 09:48

I suppose an easy way of putting it would be to say that by pricing their products higher, they increase the desirability and demand. I know that sounds silly and illogical when you compare the hardware, but theres no denying Apple products attract alot of demand when they are released regardless of the cost. I have hinted at this before in this thread but you need to view this from a marketing perspective rather than purely a hardware comparison with rival products.

It's a well known economic effect, although the name escapes me just now. When products are given a high price, this increases their desirability and thus unit sales are actually higher than if the prices were lower.

Anyone who genuinely doesn't understand why Apple price their products the way they do should read up on economics - supply, demand and price elasticity. Although I suspect in this case that's already well understood ;)

CaptainRaiden

26th June 2012, 10:29

Hmm, so for my online business, if I made a slicker website, increased the prices by 30%, advertised and hyped up my services as the best thing since sliced bread, somehow jazzed up MS Word and Excel documents, the desirability and demand of my services will increase ten-fold compared to my competitors. The only thing remaining would be to wait patiently to find suckers to do business with me.

Even if my website ranks number one on Bing and Yahoo for one of the many search terms, but hey, I'm not the market leader, and neither are Apple.

http://itbrandpulse.com/images/stories/laptop%20doc%20overview.png

The "desirability" of their products is resulting in a rather slow growth. Are you sure they're not just a luxury brand for rich people? They are pretty much nowhere in the OS share either:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Wikimedia_OS_share_pie_chart.png

There goes the supposed "superiority" and popularity of the Mac OS out of the window as well.

As for their total share of the US and World PC sales:

http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/us.png

http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/world.png

That is an amazingly slow growth rate. Anybody who believes Apple products are "flying off the shelves" has bought in terribly into the Apple hype. So, they are not the leaders anywhere, neither are their products SO desirable and in demand as some people would have me believe. But yet, ridiculous markups like $800 extra for inferior products is quite okay with people.

This business model sounds like a goldmine! Thanks guys! I just need to now convince people why my documents are better for more money compared to my competitors. :)

Mark

26th June 2012, 10:39

Hmm you're comparing iOS to Windows 7. The phrase Apples and Oranges comes to mind.

In any case that's not the point I was making. Ferrari (for example) doesn't seek to dominate the market share such that everyone owns a Ferrari, rather to maximize profit on each unit sold.

CaptainRaiden

26th June 2012, 10:40

What's to understand? It's simple market economics of charging as much as the market will bear. You may think that the price of a product is made up of material and construction costs + a margin for profit, but that's never been the case for any product, not just confined to Apple.

Yes, but why is Apple's margin for profit so much higher than others? They are not market leaders, their OS is not superior, neither is their hardware. Just because I decide to sell my product at a higher price, doesn't make it better.

Why is it okay to pay $800 for inferior hardware? Have we stooped to such levels of stupidity to think that "Because that product is $800 more expensive, it MUST be good?"

ArrowsFA1

26th June 2012, 10:47

That is an amazingly slow growth rate. Anybody who believes Apple products are "flying off the shelves" has bought in terribly into the Apple hype.

Up to 60 million iPads will be sold this year, bringing the total sold since the tablet was introduced in April 2010 to more than 100 million, estimate analysts who cover Apple. Some 55 million have been sold to date, according to Apple.
Apple expected to sell 100 millionth iPad this year (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-03-03/apple-ipad-sales/53344970/1)

Given that this is from a standing start two years ago you would describe that as "slow growth rate" and "hype"?

http://images.gizmag.com/hero/mediatabletsaleschart2010-2014.jpg

Mark

26th June 2012, 10:50

Yes, but why is Apple's margin for profit so much higher than others?

Because that's the business model they've chosen. I'm not sure why you are finding that so difficult to grasp.

They are not market leaders, their OS is not superior, neither is their hardware. Just because I decide to sell my product at a higher price, doesn't make it better.

That's true, but selling at a higher price doesn't require any of these things.

Why is it okay to pay $800 for inferior hardware? Have we stooped to such levels of stupidity to think that "Because that product is $800 more expensive, it MUST be good?"

That's the basic economic effect, yes. So just be thankful you've seen through their deception and move on :)

CaptainRaiden

26th June 2012, 10:52

Hmm you're comparing iOS to Windows 7. The phrase Apples and Oranges comes to mind.

Not iOS. I would compare Android with iOS. I'm comparing Mac OS X with Windows 7. It's nowhere even near for the claims of being "superior".

This also lays to rest the claims that majority of the graphic designers prefer Macs. Either there are very few graphic designers in this world, or all the Mac users don't connect to the internet. :)

In any case that's not the point I was making. Ferrari (for example) doesn't seek to dominate the market share such that everyone owns a Ferrari, rather to maximize profit on each unit sold.

Ferrari can't be used as an example.

Ferrari makes some of the world's fastest performance cars, which have state of the art components made by Ferrari themselves, and their cars are generally the fastest on the track or do relatively well compared to similarly priced brands like Porsche, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and Mercedes etc.

Apple makes some of the world's most expensive computers and gadgets, which generally have a subset of inferior PC hardware, the OS isn't better than its nearest competitor, is continually beaten in benchmark tests by similarly priced PC brands like HP, Dell, Sony, Acer and Toshiba.

Mark

26th June 2012, 10:55

OK fine maybe Ferrari is a bad example. Notice I'm not claiming Apple is 'better' in any way. Just that their profit margin and prices don't need 'justification' when the sales stand up.

CaptainRaiden

26th June 2012, 10:55

Apple expected to sell 100 millionth iPad this year (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-03-03/apple-ipad-sales/53344970/1)

Given that this is from a standing start two years ago you would describe that as "slow growth rate" and "hype"?

http://images.gizmag.com/hero/mediatabletsaleschart2010-2014.jpg

I believe I was talking about PC and laptop sales, and not tablets. A few posts ago Jag said Apple laptops were "flying off the shelves". Not so.

In tablets, Apple obviously has a stronghold with the iPad, but it's still surprising their tablet market share is only 61%.

CaptainRaiden

26th June 2012, 11:06

Moving on, I believe this discussion will only go on like this:

YiTvgYRUKFg

While this has been great fun, the time spent here means my productivity has hit astonishingly low levels. :(

If I wanna enjoy my weekend barbecue with some whiskey, I better get to finishing my work now.

:wave:

ArrowsFA1

26th June 2012, 11:07

I believe I was talking about PC and laptop sales, and not tablets.
Apologies. I read "Apple products" in your post :)

Dave B

26th June 2012, 16:46

Moving on, I believe this discussion will only go on like this:

While this has been great fun, the time spent here means my productivity has hit astonishingly low levels. :(

If I wanna enjoy my weekend barbecue with some whiskey, I better get to finishing my work now.

:wave:
I think where you hit a brick wall is rubbishing Apple products. I'm with you that I think they're hideously overpriced, overhyped and under-specced for what they are; and I have found better products for my personal needs. Your mistake is to extrapolate that and call their stuff rubbish when it's clearly not, and it's clearly selling in phenomenal volumes. It's views like that which make it extremely difficult to have a meaningful debate. Enjoy your BBQ! :)

CaptainRaiden

26th June 2012, 19:05

Your mistake is to extrapolate that and call their stuff rubbish when it's clearly not, and it's clearly selling in phenomenal volumes.

I didn't call Apple products rubbish because of the tech inside or because I imagine they don't work. They are very well built, very well engineered, slick products and I'm aware of that, as I've personally used their computers, tablets and phones. Not owned, but used for a valid period of time. I'm also aware that they're the current numero uno in the smartphones and tablet arena. The criticism of the iPad was because IMO current tablets (Apple and others) are useless for their price, and that's just my opinion.

It'd be really silly of me to call them garbage depending on just my imagination.

But if I'm paying considerably more $ for a product, it better not lag behind in ANY area, and that was the crux of my gripe.

Enjoy your BBQ! :)

Thank you. I will. :)

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 10:13

A good question to ask at this point would be, 'how many British Universities teaching Graphic Design or Graphic Communication are PC based?' It would be interesting to see the conversion rate of post graduates going to PC once they have graduated. As I have stated before though, not every single graphic designer on earth uses a Mac. I do know 'Final Cut Pro' is the industry standard for video editing which is Mac based. My friend owns his own consultancy in Cardiff and be it Artworking, digital media, or film editing, his staff all use Mac.

Here is a good discussion on this very topic with mixed opinions:

Mac Vs PC - what is the industry standard for graphic design - bit-tech.net Forums (http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=186293)

**I underlined the above because last time I provided an impartial link which is largely opinion, it was ignored. :)

I ran through it quickly, and yes, it does have mixed opinions and quite an interesting discussion.

But then PC has gotten double the votes of Mac, 44 to 20, and there's the good old Mac vs PC discussion going on throughout the thread with good points made from both sides.

What you have to realize though is that US and UK may be a big chunk of the world's graphic design pie, but it's certainly not the biggest, and it's those two countries where Macs have their largest sale. As you saw in the graph I posted a few posts ago, Apple is a contender in the desktops and laptops area majorly in the US, but it's not really a threat to PCs on the world map.

What you also have to keep in mind is that a lot of companies are outsourcing their designing needs to save money, and having been to many offshore graphic design companies and media publishing houses, cost cutting is the first parameter, and so there again PC wins hands down.

While I will agree that Mac is catching up fast, but like some of them said in that thread, and also from my personal experience, the default software suite used by majority of graphic/web designers is the Adobe CS, and it works pretty much in the same way on both systems. But when it comes to rendering, better hardware always helps, and this is where PC is better value for money.

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 11:05

Macs have been the primary choice for graphics designers for years now.

Maybe in Britain, henners, and maybe also in the USA, but that's still quite a small chunk on the world map. When it comes to cost cutting and getting better value for money, media companies around the world hardly care about aesthetics and ease of use. :)

PS: My wife disagrees strongly with the notion CS6 runs better on PC with regards to rendering etc. When she started in marketing one of the first things they did was change over from PC due to adobe's support preferences, monitor calibration preferences, and additional bolt ons you get with Mac. She would say depending on spec, Mac and PC are generally the same on a rendering level. PCs are though, as you say, better value for money on a hardware level. :)

That's the keyword, "Depending on spec".

Well, that's what I've been trying to say throughout. Of course, for the same hardware spec, rendering would be the same on both PC and Mac. The OS can only go as far as the hardware will allow it to go.

But for around the same hardware spec, Mac would set you back on average between $400 to $800 extra.

With that extra money, on a PC you can double the system RAM, double the GPU (graphics) RAM, get an SSD, maybe even get a better processor, and rendering will be much, much faster.

So, ultimately, if your budget is $1500, a PC will probably operate Adobe CS the same way, but will render much, MUCH faster. And for huge rendering tasks in print, video and animation, that's a huge boon. :)

airshifter

27th June 2012, 11:36

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 12:01

Making assumptions is part of the problem. I've built more systems than I want to count, and have tossed parts that would easily pay for a car by now. I've got a background in communications and was dealing with storage arrays that used large standalone metal cases weighing hundreds of pounds.... they stored less than what a flash drive would hold these days.

Didn't you also assume that I don't know what I'm talking about a few pages ago as well?

But the reality is short of intensive software hungry apps, almost all PCs have plenty of horsepower these days, and half of the "bragging rights" are based on benchmark programs.... the user wouldn't see the difference a great deal of the time and has to run a benchmark to prove "superiority".

I believe what I'm talking with henners is about the rendering aspects of a computer, not everyday, general use. If someone is using their computer just for surfing websites, what difference would an OS or hardware make?

Back to reality, I've already had a number of times my newer Droid phone lags at execution, but my daughters 3rd gen iPod doesn't. It's an "inferior" product that performs better at times.

Well, Motorola has had lots of issues with Droid, and it's hardly a benchmark for Android phones, as it's not the main competitor of Apple. A better comparison would be Samsung's Galaxy range of phones. I'm using an SGS2, but my ancient Samsung Galaxy 5 i5500 still handles Android 2.2 (Froyo) without any lags or glitches.

Dave B

27th June 2012, 16:06

Back to reality, I've already had a number of times my newer Droid phone lags at execution, but my daughters 3rd gen iPod doesn't. It's an "inferior" product that performs better at times.
Motorola are infamous for putting their own Motoblur skin over Android, which is generally regarded as a pretty terrible bit of software and ruins some otherwise good phones. Incidentally, Samsung's equivalent Touchwiz is the only sticking point for me getting an S3 - I'd almost certainly root it and install vanilla ICS which runs like lightning without manufacturers faffing around with it. That's where Apple's approach of retaining total control of the OS can pay dividends, but equally you could argue it stifles development.

Mark

27th June 2012, 16:18

That is precisely where Apple wins. There were many commentators who said Apple would fail as they wouldn't allow operators to install their bloatware on phones. Like when I had a Nokia and had to sit through T-Mobile startup screens every time I switched it on.

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 18:11

Incidentally, Samsung's equivalent Touchwiz is the only sticking point for me getting an S3 - I'd almost certainly root it and install vanilla ICS which runs like lightning without manufacturers faffing around with it.

The S3 has such kickass hardware that touchwhiz doesn't bog it down that much, at least that was my impression when I played around with it at a showroom. If you install ICS, you'll lose the S-Voice thingy developed by Samsung, which looks better in reviews, but I'm assuming it's as crap as Siri anyway.

IMO while it is useless, touchwhiz is still better than HTC's Sense UI and that Motorola crap.

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 19:01

Its just got iOS to beat now :p

Sorry just teasing lol.

Yeah, well, you know, henners, *cough* touchwhiz is not an OS, *cough* just a UI. :p

So, fail. :p

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 19:14

Haha I am actually very proud I didn't know that. I must be cooler than I first thought?..... Whiskey!!. :p

:laugh:

Odd that in this society being ignorant means to be cool. :p :D

Don't remind me of the whiskey. :(

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 19:36

Nah, this society is pretty clued up with social networking and news apps on their iPhones.. :p :)

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/2988905_700b_v1.jpg

:p

Jag_Warrior

27th June 2012, 19:47

http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/us.png

That is an amazingly slow growth rate. Anybody who believes Apple products are "flying off the shelves" has bought in terribly into the Apple hype. So, they are not the leaders anywhere, neither are their products SO desirable and in demand as some people would have me believe. But yet, ridiculous markups like $800 extra for inferior products is quite okay with people.

More likely, the person who said that is well versed in how to read 10Q's. ;) Apple has been growing sales at a rate that well exceeds the PC sector overall. And even in your snapshot here, what we see is that Apple and Toshiba were the only ones to experience year-over-year positive growth. Looking at results from later in 2011:

While Apple still struggles with single digit marketshare globally among all PC vendors, sales of Macs have steadily increased over the last few years. Mac sales have outgrown the overall PC market for 32 consecutive quarters, and grown to 4.89 million units (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/10/despite-record-mac-sales-70-of-apples-revenue-comes-from-ios.ars)—a 26 percent year-over-year increase—in the most recent September quarter.

That kind of growth is expected to continue (http://allthingsd.com/20111115/mac-attack-mac-sales-headed-for-new-record/) for the holiday quarter, according to early figures released by market research firm IDC. Piper Jaffray analyst Gene Munster noted that sales for October alone are already up 19 percent year-over-year. Currently, he is predicting a 23-26 percent increase for the entire holiday quarter, or sales of 5.1-5.3 million Macs.

And the MacBook Air, of which I was speaking, did indeed "fly off the shelves" in the most recent holiday quarter (OK, it did not literally fly... computers can't really fly, ya know). Anyone who wants to ignore the data that plainly indicates that is just so keen on sticking to an ideology that they've lost the ability to see the forest for that single tree in front of their face.

Now, I'm headed outside to light my Cohiba cigar with a $100 bill. I don't actually smoke cigars though - they'll give you cancer. I make my butler smoke it after I light it. That's what us rich people do, ya know. :s mokin:

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 20:36

More likely, the person who said that is well versed in how to read 10Q's. ;) Apple has been growing sales at a rate that well exceeds the PC sector overall. And even in your snapshot here, what we see is that Apple and Toshiba were the only ones to experience year-over-year positive growth.

I believe what I was retorting to was claims by some that Apple was the market leader in laptops and that they sold more Macs and Macbooks than PC vendors, which is clearly not true. I am also aware of Apple's steady growth, but it's also not as rapid as many would have me believe. They still have a long way to go to be considered true competitors to PC's domination, especially on the worldwide market, not just US.

Another major aspect you have to keep in mind is that Microsoft hasn't released any real updates to their OS since the 2009 release of Windows 7, whereas Apple has released [I]TWO new versions of their Mac OS X in the last two years. Windows 8 is still in beta I believe, and is expected to launch in July. Expect desktop PCs and laptop sales to jump back up as Ultrabooks with Ivy bridge processors and SSDs start to roll out with Windows 8 pre-loaded.

Now, I'm headed outside to light my Cohiba cigar with a $100 bill. I don't actually smoke cigars though - they'll give you cancer. I make my butler smoke it after I light it. That's what us rich people do, ya know. :s mokin:

Ah, enjoy your cigar, sir. And may I suggest a $5000 Macbook Air while you're at it? :)

Mark

27th June 2012, 20:46

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 20:56

I can't find that claim when looking back, unless I've missed it?

Did you go through EVERY post over the last 5-6 pages? If not, look again henners. :p

Just to be clear, I wasn't pointing at you, but some other Apple fan who was talking about market volume and how Macbooks are outselling laptops. Can't be bothered to search through 6 pages to find the exact quote.

I accept that the iPhone 4S has comfortably outsold its nearest competitor, the Galaxy S2.

But Apple computers are not a threat to PC, not yet at least.

CaptainRaiden

27th June 2012, 21:02

I think you really have to consider Apples laptops and desktops differently to the mobile offerings. Different OS and different philosophy. Also a much slower upgrade cycle by users phones are maybe every 18 months. Desktops more like 4-5 years.

I'm not even talking about the mobile OS. Apple's mobile OS is called iOS. Their desktop and Macbook OS is called OS X, and that's what I compared Win 7 and Win 8 to above.

Apple I believe has revamped their desktop OS at least 4-5 times in the last 5 years with different feline names such as Lion, mountain lion, puma, leopard, panther etc, with the most recent two updates coming in the last two years.

This builds consumer confidence, and IMO helps in selling more units.

Windows 7 might have been 2009 but many still see it as being new and scary!

Tell me about it. I was surprised to visit a friend's office recently to see all their competent PCs running Windows XP.

airshifter

28th June 2012, 05:03

Didn't you also assume that I don't know what I'm talking about a few pages ago as well?

If that was the case, you could quote it. I've already quoted your incorrect assumptions.

I believe what I'm talking with henners is about the rendering aspects of a computer, not everyday, general use. If someone is using their computer just for surfing websites, what difference would an OS or hardware make?

Once again, your assumptions are blinding you. I was self employed in the sign and graphics business for well over a decade and am well aware of how rendering capabilities affect power users. I used a PC based platform due to lack of Mac support on the sign plotter side of the world, but the majority of graphics designers and design departments I worked with used Macs. The primary concern for most was how robust both the hardware and software were. In PC land we often had to reboot a number of times in a day, Mac users only shut down at days end.[/quote]

Well, Motorola has had lots of issues with Droid, and it's hardly a benchmark for Android phones, as it's not the main competitor of Apple. A better comparison would be Samsung's Galaxy range of phones. I'm using an SGS2, but my ancient Samsung Galaxy 5 i5500 still handles Android 2.2 (Froyo) without any lags or glitches.

You're missing my point on this issue. I can count on one hand the times my daughters iPod has lagged even in the slightest. Most phones can't make that claim. Head to head my phone will perform the vast majority of tasks faster than my kids earlier iPad or my fathers iPhone4. But for the average user you aren't going to sit them side and side and see if one performs a task a split second faster than the other. In my experience the biggest lag in most phones is the user interface.... not meaning the software on the phone but the human flesh touching it.

CaptainRaiden

28th June 2012, 08:19

If that was the case, you could quote it. I've already quoted your incorrect assumptions.

A classis quote. You have become an Apple hater primarily due to your limited association with other Apple haters. :laugh:

Having spent a number of years self employed in the sign industry, your statements concerning the graphics field are flat out wrong. The field has for years been dominated by Apple.

Being that you are basing your dislike on second hand information, it's no surprise that you don't understand that hardware specs alone don't create a great system. I've built PCs for decades now, and have seen supposed inferior hardware and software vastly outperform the "better" alternatives. The same often applies to phones. The only true test is a side by side comparison, and most often you find that neither is superior in all aspects.

So yeah, you pretty much attacked me with assumptions, without knowing bat$hit about me, and now you're accusing me of assuming. That's rich!

Once again, your assumptions are blinding you. I was self employed in the sign and graphics business for well over a decade and am well aware of how rendering capabilities affect power users. I used a PC based platform due to lack of Mac support on the sign plotter side of the world, but the majority of graphics designers and design departments I worked with used Macs. The primary concern for most was how robust both the hardware and software were. In PC land we often had to reboot a number of times in a day, Mac users only shut down at days end.

Again, you're missing the point by a landslide dude. Nobody is denying that on similar specced machines, rendering capabilities will be equal, and the Mac may even be a better computer for graphic design (not in my personal experience, but if people are so convinced, I'm willing to agree that yes, it may have some advantages).

The point is that for the price of a top-end Mac, you get almost a double spec PC, and at the end of the day, since you're so well aware of what factors affect rendering, you would know that smooth and fast rendering depends pretty much 90% on how good your hardware is. A "robust" OS can only go as far as the hardware will allow it to go, no matter how many times you have to reboot it. :rolleyes: So, repeating again, for the same money, Adobe CS and other graphic design software will operate the same on both machines, but since PC components, especially when assembling, are MUCH cheaper than Mac, you will build a significantly faster rendering machine.

I want to make it very clear that better hardware however means squat when it comes to general, every day use, and in that case, it really doesn't matter whether you buy a Mac or a PC. But for rendering capabilities, better hardware is always tops. And that is a FACT. I have worked as a graphic designer, and used the Adobe CS on both machines. You can't tell the difference operating wise, but a PC with better hardware will always render faster and be lighter on your pocket. I have also used Final Cut Pro on Mac and Avid on PC for video editing. If the raw file is huge, which it usually is, sometimes in 100s of GBs, it ALWAYS helps to have better hardware. While FCP is tops as far as UI goes, Avid will render faster on a PC with better hardware. Smoother and faster rendering also means lesser hangs, lags, glitches in the final video.

Also, US and UK are not the whole world. So, the claims that majority of the graphic designers all over the world use Mac is a bold one, and needs some serious backing up. Are you sure Apple sells the same amount of Macs in Asia, Asia Pacific, Europe than it does in US and UK? Sales figures say otherwise.

At least read my posts thoroughly before attacking me.

You're missing my point on this issue. I can count on one hand the times my daughters iPod has lagged even in the slightest. Most phones can't make that claim. Head to head my phone will perform the vast majority of tasks faster than my kids earlier iPad or my fathers iPhone4. But for the average user you aren't going to sit them side and side and see if one performs a task a split second faster than the other. In my experience the biggest lag in most phones is the user interface.... not meaning the software on the phone but the human flesh touching it.

Again, you are comparing the wrong device, and also looking at it only on the surface with an "overly simplistic" view. Just because your daughter's old phone is "smoother", doesn't mean it's a better phone. Sure, on the surface it would seem like, but what about the majority of other tasks? Mac OS X's window transitions are faster and smoother than Windows 7, but does it mean it's faster? No. Does it render faster? NO. It would be pretty noobish for anybody to assume that just because a phone doesn't lag at the UI, it's a better phone.

Since you consider Apple products to be the best, compare them with the best. Sorry, but the Droid has a history of way too many problems for it to be considered a real competitor to even the older iPhone 4. All Android smartphone manufacturers have interspersed the Android OS with their own UI (user interface). Some win, some fail badly. Motorola's motoblur is one such fail.

Samsung is the main competitor to Apple in the smartphone market, and Galaxy S2 is a much better comparison. It has better hardware, bigger screen, doesn't lag, works faster, smoother, and is cheaper than even the older iPhone 4.

CaptainRaiden

28th June 2012, 11:12

Airshifter had been very respectful in his responses and isn't attacking you captain. He's provided a better technical response than I could ever do and I think valid points have been raised by both sides.

Fair enough, quite bored of this actually.

In other tablet and tech news, Google released a lot of tech over the last few days:

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/5zRZKX55O7FqvnRlgn_fxg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/technews/mm-630-google-nexus-7-tablet-630w.jpeg

Google reveals pint-sized Nexus 7 tablet for just $199 | Technology News Blog - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/google-reveals-pint-sized-nexus-7-tablet-just-174842353.html)

What do you think?

janneppi

28th June 2012, 15:58

I'm actually considering the nexus for occasional web browsing or IRC use. For anything more than 10 minutes I'd rather use a PC anyway. That is if the price doesn't go too high when it get's to Europe.

CaptainRaiden

28th June 2012, 18:04

The Nexus 7 seems like a good little toy to have for $200. Quite powerful too. I have the Kindle to read books, but this seems like a good solution to read comic books or graphic novels.

Quite a good few days for tech. Rumors are that this is the only leaked legit pic of the iPhone 5.

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01519/IPHONE-MAIN_1519332a.jpg

Jag_Warrior

28th June 2012, 19:46

I believe what I was retorting to was claims by some that Apple was the market leader in laptops and that they sold more Macs and Macbooks than PC vendors, which is clearly not true. I am also aware of Apple's steady growth, but it's also not as rapid as many would have me believe. They still have a long way to go to be considered true competitors to PC's domination, especially on the worldwide market, not just US.

I didn't see that claim. And I'm unaware of any stated strategy by Apple, that it seeks to capture greater market share at the expense of margins. As I said previously, chasing volume at the expense of margins is a key reason for the struggles that so many of these PC OEM's have suffered, and the primary reason that IBM chose to exit this typically low margin business several years ago. It's rather amusing that a company, which by your words is not a "true competitor", is seeing the styling of its products copied by these new ultrabooks.

Selling and leasing low end, low margin, cobbled together junk PC's to corporations, for use on the shop floor, just isn't what Apple does. HP and Dell do it to sell service contracts. They make very little money on many of these corporate machines. But, if you bother to read the 10Q's from HP and Dell over time, you'll see that they do fairly well on the service contracts. This is precisely why HP was tempted to exit the consumer PC business and why Dell is now focusing its major efforts on contracts with large businesses of more than 500 employees, federal and state governments, non-profits and education - and shifting focus away from the low margin consumer and small business market. What matters most is not how many you sell, but how much you make off each sale. Understand?

There is an old story used in many business classes to explain the fundamental basics of margins, and how some people don't understand that volumes and scale don't make up for a lack of margins. See, there were these two guys who drove to North Carolina to buy watermelons to sell in the north. They bought 100 watermelons. They had their truck completely loaded down. They sold every one of them once they got home. They had the market cornered in their home town. Now, you could pop up a graph and try to tell me how *successful* they were, right? Well, here's the problem. They bought each watermelon for 40 cents. They sold each watermelon for 45 cents. A nickel of profit, right? But by the time they figured in the transportation, the total cost of each watermelon was actually 50 cents, not 40 cents. So instead of a nickel of profit, they had a nickel of loss on each sale. They sat down at the end of the month to come up with a new plan. So the one guy says to the other guy, "we're going broke. We've got just enough money to make one more go of it. What do we do???" And the first guy (we'll call him Mr. Dell) looks at him and says, "I've got it! We'll just buy a bigger truck!" :bounce:

And now their stock is down 23% over the past 12 months and down 57% in the past 5 years. While the stock of their neighbor, who by chance, sells apples at his stand (but he makes sure to only sell premium goods at a profit), his stock is up over 73% over the past 12 months and up 371% over the past 5 years. Now, those are the facts of the matter. And no amount of spin can discount them.

Another major aspect you have to keep in mind is that Microsoft hasn't released any real updates to their OS since the 2009 release of Windows 7, whereas Apple has released TWO new versions of their Mac OS X in the last two years. Windows 8 is still in beta I believe, and is expected to launch in July. Expect desktop PCs and laptop sales to jump back up as Ultrabooks with Ivy bridge processors and SSDs start to roll out with Windows 8 pre-loaded.

After the disaster that was Vista, I guess they were somewhat snake bit, eh? :dozey: Thus far, Ultrabooks have not gotten off to the fast start that many claimed they would. They may pick up speed when the new processors come fully on line. But that is yet to be seen. So far, there's only hopium that they will. If they do, then that's good. I'm in favor of more consumer choices, not fewer. And whatever decision various consumers make, I make the assumption that people buy that which best suits their needs and desires. But that's just me. :)

Ah, enjoy your cigar, sir. And may I suggest a $5000 Macbook Air while you're at it? :)

Jeeves gets mighty chocked up on those Cuban stogies. Maybe I'll buy him a a bottle of 50 year old Chivas Royal Salute to wash the taste down. Course, I hear there's a warehouse in Alabama that's full of unsold Dell netbooks. I bet I could buy them for $100 and sell them for $95 and make a fortune. Whatcha think? :p

ioan

28th June 2012, 21:57

Apple and some other companies have hyped it up very well, and a lot of people have bought into the idea without thinking about some key things:

1. It is not secure. Hackers will have a field day with people's personal files.
2. It is fine for small documents, but you're screwed if you have to download anything bigger than a few 100 MBs outside the wi-fi or 3G zone.
3. It would to have be extremely robust and reliable, meaning no internet outages pretty much ever, just like physical storage.
4. At this moment, it is expensive, slow AND unreliable.

And
5. it will ruin you if you leave your country and have to download more than 1 MB.

ioan

28th June 2012, 21:59

I'm actually considering the nexus for occasional web browsing or IRC use. For anything more than 10 minutes I'd rather use a PC anyway.

Exactly. I've had the 7" Samsung Tab for over a year now, and that's exactly what I need it for for short internet access.

CaptainRaiden

28th June 2012, 23:26

I didn't see that claim. And I'm unaware of any stated strategy by Apple, that it seeks to capture greater market share at the expense of margins. As I said previously, chasing volume at the expense of margins is a key reason for the struggles that so many of these PC OEM's have suffered, and the primary reason that IBM chose to exit this typically low margin business several years ago. It's rather amusing that a company, which by your words is not a "true competitor", is seeing the styling of its products copied by these new ultrabooks.

Selling and leasing low end, low margin, cobbled together junk PC's to corporations, for use on the shop floor, just isn't what Apple does. HP and Dell do it to sell service contracts. They make very little money on many of these corporate machines. But, if you bother to read the 10Q's from HP and Dell over time, you'll see that they do fairly well on the service contracts. This is precisely why HP was tempted to exit the consumer PC business and why Dell is now focusing its major efforts on contracts with large businesses of more than 500 employees, federal and state governments, non-profits and education - and shifting focus away from the low margin consumer and small business market. What matters most is not how many you sell, but how much you make off each sale. Understand?

There is an old story used in many business classes to explain the fundamental basics of margins, and how some people don't understand that volumes and scale don't make up for a lack of margins. See, there were these two guys who drove to North Carolina to buy watermelons to sell in the north. They bought 100 watermelons. They had their truck completely loaded down. They sold every one of them once they got home. They had the market cornered in their home town. Now, you could pop up a graph and try to tell me how *successful* they were, right? Well, here's the problem. They bought each watermelon for 40 cents. They sold each watermelon for 45 cents. A nickel of profit, right? But by the time they figured in the transportation, the total cost of each watermelon was actually 50 cents, not 40 cents. So instead of a nickel of profit, they had a nickel of loss on each sale. They sat down at the end of the month to come up with a new plan. So the one guy says to the other guy, "we're going broke. We've got just enough money to make one more go of it. What do we do???" And the first guy (we'll call him Mr. Dell) looks at him and says, "I've got it! We'll just buy a bigger truck!"

And now their stock is down 23% over the past 12 months and down 57% in the past 5 years. While the stock of their neighbor, who by chance, sells apples at his stand (but he makes sure to only sell premium goods at a profit), his stock is up over 73% over the past 12 months and up 371% over the past 5 years. Now, those are the facts of the matter. And no amount of spin can discount them.

All that is good, but you're making the mistake of comparing Apple with only Dell, who is one of MANY PC vendors.

If someone wants to buy an iMac or a Macbook, they can only go to Apple.

If someone wants to buy a PC or a laptop, they can go to Dell, HP, Sony, Samsung, Acer, Lenovo, LG, HCL, Toshiba, ASUS, Panasonic, MSI, Fujitsu etc. etc. and tons of small PC firms who will assemble your PC components for you.

No matter how many Macbooks "flew off the shelves" last year, Apple's share of the worldwide market still lingers around the 10% range, and that's just in the US, Apple's biggest market. Their worldwide share is even lesser, and they're counted in "Others". And while Apple may have had a solid growth against Dell and kicked their rear ends to oblivion, but PCs and laptops sold 10 times more than Apple computers, and that's only in the US. The ratio is even bigger for worldwide sales.

While they're undisputed market leaders in tablets, and marginally in smartphones, they are not really a "true" competitor to PC's domination of the world market.

And while it's unreasonable for me to say it, I'll still say that until Apple starts selling as many computers as PCs sell worldwide, they can't be considered a "true competitor". It is a luxury brand, and will remain so for a very long period of time.

After the disaster that was Vista, I guess they were somewhat snake bit, eh? :dozey:

As bad as Vista was, and I agree, it was pretty much a Win 7 beta. Even as craptastic as Vista is, the usage ratio of operating systems shows it pretty much even with Mac usage, as of April 2012. That says something, doesn't it? :D The 11 year old Win XP is used three times as much, and Windows 7 is used 4 times as much as Apple's Mac OS.

It's rather amusing that a company, which by your words is not a "true competitor", is seeing the styling of its products copied by these new ultrabooks.

Oh, I didn't know Apple invented the modern laptop's form factor! Damn all these plagiarizers to hell!

At least they'll have much better hardware compared to the Macbook Air, oh, and a DVD-ROM. :p

This reminds me of a picture:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/1462101_700b.jpg

Jeeves gets mighty chocked up on those Cuban stogies. Maybe I'll buy him a a bottle of 50 year old Chivas Royal Salute to wash the taste down. Course, I hear there's a warehouse in Alabama that's full of unsold Dell netbooks. I bet I could buy them for $100 and sell them for $95 and make a fortune. Whatcha think?

They'd still be better value for money. :p

Dave B

29th June 2012, 07:41

Fair enough, quite bored of this actually.

In other tablet and tech news, Google released a lot of tech over the last few days:

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/5zRZKX55O7FqvnRlgn_fxg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/technews/mm-630-google-nexus-7-tablet-630w.jpeg

Google reveals pint-sized Nexus 7 tablet for just $199 | Technology News Blog - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/google-reveals-pint-sized-nexus-7-tablet-just-174842353.html)

What do you think?
It looks like a nice little tablet, but apart from the Jellybean OS doesn't appear to offer a huge amount more than the £50 no-names you can pick up - many of which are starting to ship with Ice Cream Sandwich and huge memories. I'm sure it's a lot more powerful, but for casual browsing and simple games the vanilla tablets are surprisingly good.

There's not a huge amount you can do on a £300 iPad that you can't do on a £50 tablet, and many of them address the shortcomings of the Apple by including proper connectivity with the outside world.

CaptainRaiden

29th June 2012, 08:05

Just to make it clear, you can buy Apple computers in most electrical retailers in the UK and even our local supermarket Tesco stock them. The post above claims you have to go direct to Apple but that's not the case. :)

I'm not talking about stores, but manufacturers. :)

I never claimed you can only buy an Apple computer in an "Apple store".

CaptainRaiden

29th June 2012, 08:14

A weird new ball like streaming device from Google. The Nexus Q:

Google Nexus Q review | from TechRadar's expert reviews of Media streaming devices (http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/networking-and-wi-fi/media-streaming-devices/google-nexus-q-1087370/review)

http://cdn4.mos.techradar.com///art/audio_systems/GOOGLE/NEXUS%20Q/P6271413-380-75.JPG

http://cdn1.mos.techradar.com//art/audio_systems/GOOGLE/NEXUS%20Q/P6281442-900-90.JPG

Runs on an Android OS and can be controlled by several different Android phones or tablets through an app to stream media on a TV or other devices. Weird shape, a competitor to Apple TV, maybe interesting because multiple users can control it, but I don't think it will get a lot of buyers. Maybe the next version will be better.

CaptainRaiden

29th June 2012, 08:19

Thanks for posting that. This thread has influenced me to wait until the iPhone 5 is released so that I can compare it to the S3 before I decide which way to go with my next upgrade. With the release not that far away, I think I'd be stupid to upgrade, only to maybe regret it once my wife gets the 5. I have no qualms waiting a couple more months. :)

I'm actually also inclined towards waiting for the iPhone 5 now just to see what new features, if any, they will unveil.

My hands are getting quite itchy to get the Galaxy S3 though. :D

If Apple's iOS works fine on lesser hardware, I wonder why they would want to go the quad core route, maybe to be future proof or to be able to stream media on huge TVs more effortlessly.

Either way, if it has a quad core processor and a much bigger screen, it will be VERY interesting to see if it's in the same price range as the Galaxy S3.

ArrowsFA1

29th June 2012, 08:34

If someone wants to buy an iMac or a Macbook, they can only go to Apple.

If someone wants to buy a PC or a laptop, they can go to Dell, HP, Sony, Samsung, Acer, Lenovo, LG, HCL, Toshiba, ASUS, Panasonic, MSI, Fujitsu etc. etc. and tons of small PC firms who will assemble your PC components for you.

I'm not clear what your complaint here is. If people want to buy a computer they have a choice. They can choose from Apple, Dell, HP, Sony, Samsung, Acer, Lenovo etc etc. Yes, the iMac or Macbook computers are Apple only. So :confused:

If someone wants to buy, for example, a Porsche 911 they can only go to Porsche. There are similar cars, some considerably cheaper, available from other manufacturers. Are you suggesting that Porsche should allow other manufacturers to make the 911 and sell at a lower price it with their own badge on the front?

CaptainRaiden

29th June 2012, 09:01

I'm not clear what your complaint here is. If people want to buy a computer they have a choice. They can choose from Apple, Dell, HP, Sony, Samsung, Acer, Lenovo etc etc. Yes, the iMac or Macbook computers are Apple only. So :confused:

Jag was comparing Apple with Dell, and IMO the comparison is unfair because Dell is one of many PC vendors, whereas Apple is the only Mac vendor.

While Apple and all the other 15 manufacturers source the same components, make their own peripherals, there is one big difference: the operating system. And that puts Apple in a different category, just as laptops running Linux will be put in a separate category.

And so if you really wanna compare Mac with PC, Mac OS X with MS Windows, Apple is in direct competition with all of them. It is not like Dell, HP or Toshiba make laptops with their own OS. They are all running Windows 7. So, the fact of the matter is that Windows 7 PCs and laptops are selling at least 10 times more than Mac computers running OS X worldwide.

Apple may be a true competitor to Dell, but Mac computers are not a true competitor to PC. Nor will it be for a very long time. It is a luxury brand for a niche market.

If someone wants to buy, for example, a Porsche 911 they can only go to Porsche. There are similar cars, some considerably cheaper, available from other manufacturers. Are you suggesting that Porsche should allow other manufacturers to make the 911 and sell at a lower price it with their own badge on the front?

I don't really understand the car manufacturer analogy here. Are there 15 different car companies selling different looking cars with the same exact engine inside against Porsche? :confused:

Malbec

29th June 2012, 09:12

Jag_Warrior

29th June 2012, 10:11

All that is good, but you're making the mistake of comparing Apple with only Dell, who is one of MANY PC vendors.

If someone wants to buy an iMac or a Macbook, they can only go to Apple.

If someone wants to buy a PC or a laptop, they can go to Dell, HP, Sony, Samsung, Acer, Lenovo, LG, HCL, Toshiba, ASUS, Panasonic, MSI, Fujitsu etc. etc. and tons of small PC firms who will assemble your PC components for you.

No matter how many Macbooks "flew off the shelves" last year, Apple's share of the worldwide market still lingers around the 10% range, and that's just in the US, Apple's biggest market. Their worldwide share is even lesser, and they're counted in "Others". And while Apple may have had a solid growth against Dell and kicked their rear ends to oblivion, but PCs and laptops sold 10 times more than Apple computers, and that's only in the US. The ratio is even bigger for worldwide sales.

And even with my cute little story, you continue to miss the point. :rolleyes:

No, I am not only comparing Apple with Dell. I mentioned HP. I mentioned IBM. I'll mention any PC OEM that you like. Pick one and we'll go through the same exercise again... and we'll get the same results again. We'll compare Apple's margins to any and all of them. It is what it is. Facts are facts. The point is, no matter what your market share is, no matter how big a truck you buy to carry your products in... at the end of the day, you still have to turn an acceptable profit. This is not a debatable theory. This is quite simply an economic fact! OK? OK! Is it not clear to you why HP, even with its immense market share (globally and in the U.S.), was prepared to sell its PC division? Is it not clear to you why Dell is moving its focus more toward corporate/governmental services and away from the consumer segment? I'm not married to any of these companies. I don't work for any of them. So rather than continue going in circles with this issue, I'll point out one last time that Apple is not and probably never will have the market share as Dell, HP or any of the other large OEM PC makers. Why? For the very reasons that I illustrated in my watermelon story. The PC business has become commoditized. This was the stated reason that IBM gave for selling its PC division to Lenovo. The ultrabook concept is an attempt to move away from that. Whether you understand this or not, the CEO's of these OEM companies understand that they have to begin offering products that are more than just cheap, featureless boxes - as Apple has understood for some time. Do you understand why having your product being perceived as a commodity is not a value proposition, and why just having a given market share does not guarantee your success? Constant references to market share, in the absence of an acceptable profit margin, just provides a meaningless talking point. GM's global market share was #1-#2 right up until they went bankrupt. This isn't rocket science. Refer back to my watermelon story, think about it (objectively and without the spin) and see where the data leads you... instead of you trying to lead the data.

Now, with all that said, from a business standpoint, having a large number of OEM's making essentially the same "commodity" product that you're making is not good - it squeezes margins. You basically have to compete on price and price alone. And the race to the bottom is a short, painful one. Only by offering better customer service, or something along those lines, can you differentiate your product. But from a consumer point of view, this is a good thing. I am not arguing that it is not. Because if you're in the market for one of these items, you have a variety of sources (as you said) and you can make your choice based on who offers the best price, and hopefully an acceptable level of service.

CaptainRaiden

29th June 2012, 11:03

Without quoting specific parts of the above two posts, since I'm in a hurry, I'll just say this: I agree that Apple has had solid and steady growth against PC manufacturers, namely Dell and HP, and that they have sold a hell of a lot of computers, especially Macbooks recently. I am also aware that while Dell and HP sold twice the computers than Apple over the last year or so, they actually made a loss. So, yes, Apple did make a sizable dent on the computer market against its two main competitors.

Why I don't consider them "true competitors" is for a couple of reasons. First, Apple's US share (only computers, not tablets or smartphones) is around 11% and the worldwide share is a little over 4%. That has moved slightly over the last 4-5 years. Yes, sure, maybe PC brands are not enjoying the same amount of success and profits as Apple is, but that doesn't change the fact that still PC outsells Apple computers by a big margin worldwide, and it is still the preferred choice of a majority of buyers all over the world. And of course, this is not even taking into account how many separate PC components are sold daily and how many people simply buy the components and assemble the PC themselves. I personally know at least 10 people who have built PCs off and on over years and still update their hardware on a regular basis.

US and UK are two of the biggest markets for Apple, but that's still quite a small chunk when we talk about the whole world. For example, in India corporations prefer PCs because it helps them keep their costs down dramatically and deliver pretty much the same quality, which is crucial when American or European companies outsource their work to these firms. Same can be said of many other future big economies in Asia. For personal users in India, you can buy components at a big discount from small computer firms who will assemble the PC and even install the OS for you at a fraction of a cost of a Dell or an HP computer. I don't even wanna begin to get into how much cheaper they are compared to iMacs!! And so a lot of corporations, in my experience, have bought such PCs and hired one or two technicians who do the PC maintenance and also handle servers and networking. This saves a HUGE amount of money for them and makes good sense for business.

Another big factor, and this I have seen in US, Asia and Europe, is many corporations' and users' unwillingness to move away from Windows XP. It's the "If it's not broken, why fix it" attitude. And because of Vista's failure, people were apprehensive in switching over to Windows 7, and this prevents Windows 7 from fully being implemented. Apple doesn't have this problem. This, coupled with regular revamping and revisions of the Mac OS X more recently has meant Apple has enjoyed quite a lot of success lately.

Despite this, Windows 7 still is the most used OS in the world, and more Windows 7 laptops are sold than Macbooks, yes, not at a huge profit, but they are still selling more nonetheless. Once the full implementation of Windows 7 happens worldwide, and the Windows 8 onslaught begins, I expect PC sales to pick up massively. Only time will tell.

Malbec

29th June 2012, 11:44

CaptainRaiden

29th June 2012, 12:10

Oh dear, you're STILL not getting it.

Apple doesn't shift huge numbers because unlike many PC manufacturers it doesn't target corporate clients (except in a few small fields). You're criticising it for poor sales in a category it clearly isn't aiming for.

Apple targets the casual consumer for home use. That is why its first serious comeback product was the iPod, useless for the corporate environment but very attractive to home users. Ditto the iPhone although it is more useful for work than the iPod. And guess what? In the market its aiming at it is extremely successful to the point where rivals such as Sony and Microsoft, despite strong branding and resources have utterly failed to make a dent in the market (remember Zune?), and where its profitability is very high.

Again, your country doesn't account for the WHOLE world. As surprising as it may sound, there are other countries in this world apart from US and UK. I'm talking about the global scale, and it is where probably Apple is not doing as good as in US and the UK. Maybe in China, yes. Apple is doing very well in your country, yes, but that doesn't mean it is the preferred choice of the casual consumer in EVERY country!

In a lot of other countries, PC is the preferred choice for corporations AND the casual consumer. I have already said a lot of people buy separate PC components and assemble them themselves or get them assembled by somebody that knows how to. These would be the middle class clients, which is a HUGE portion of the consumer chunk who buys assembled PCs, who don't even buy from Dell or HP, let alone Apple. Those are a lot of sales that go unaccounted for in the PC vs Mac tally.

I have never denied that Apple is the clear leader in tablets, smartphones and MP3 players.

What next? Are you going to call Ferrari and Porsche failures, after all they too have poor market share and near zero fleet sales?

Why do people keep comparing Apple with Ferrari? That's a bad example as I have already said a few pages ago. Let me quote myself to make it clearer:

Ferrari can't be used as an example.

Ferrari makes some of the world's fastest performance cars, which have state of the art components made by Ferrari themselves, and their cars are generally the fastest on the track or do relatively well compared to similarly priced brands like Porsche, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and Mercedes etc.

Apple makes some of the world's most expensive computers and gadgets, which generally have a subset of inferior PC hardware, the OS isn't better than its nearest competitor, is continually beaten in benchmark tests by similarly priced PC brands like HP, Dell, Sony, Acer and Toshiba.

CaptainRaiden

29th June 2012, 12:32

What people are also not realizing that small computer firms on every street in Asian countries like India sell and assemble thousands of PC components daily, and it is the same trend in some countries in Europe from what I have seen. Those sales don't account for PC sales, because they're not from a branded company, but they are in hundreds of thousands daily worldwide. And I'm talking about consumers, not corporations.

This is probably why Windows OS sees more than 75% and Mac OS only about 9% usage on the global stats based on how many computers connected to the internet in 2012.

As surprising as it may sound to some, yes, some people do pay more attention to what goes inside their computer. Hardly any of the middle class folks buy ready-made desktop PCs from electronic stores. They don't even go as far as thinking about pre-assembled PCs or Dells or HPs, let alone Apple. Almost everybody in the middle class buys the components and gets them assembled. Better flexibility and versatility, and you get what you want this way, no compromises.

So, is Apple really a true competitor to PC? No. Will it ever be? No. Is it a luxury brand with premium products that appeals to a niche market and the wealthy? Yes! I accept this, then why is it hard for people to accept that iMacs and Macbooks, on a global level, are not a true competitor to PCs and laptops??

This statement from a Chinese website regarding Apple sales says a lot:

Apple has been successful in raking in sales in China's wealthy first- or second-tier cities, but less so in the wider Chinese market, where overall income levels are still low.

Consumers with deep pockets generally see Apple as a premium product and status symbol, analysts say, and are willing to overlook certain drawbacks.

"I see everybody using an iPhone, so I decided to buy one," said a user whose surname is Zhou, who lives in China's wealthy coastal province of Jiangsu. "I love the screens and the applications are really sleek." She has switched iPhones within a year to keep up with Apple's latest gadgets.

Malbec

29th June 2012, 12:36

Again, your country doesn't account for the WHOLE world. As surprising as it may sound, there are other countries in this world apart from US and UK. I'm talking about the global scale, and it is where probably Apple is not doing as good as in US and the UK. Maybe in China, yes. Apple is doing very well in your country, yes, but that doesn't mean it is the preferred choice of the casual consumer in EVERY country!

Utterly irrelevant except for showing that you don't understand the point both Jag and I are making. Also you insist in claiming that people such as I have stated Apple is the 'preferred' choice. I don't think anyone on this thread has made this claim.... Targetting a particular market is not the same as being the preferred choice in it.

BTW Apple doesn't just enjoy success in the UK and the US, it has a larger market share in Japan than in the US and has decent sales across Europe, ie the more affluent the country the greater its market share. This is consistent with its product placement as a high end and premium product.

When you have a product, you target it at a specific part of the market. That should be clear enough. The problem is that you are using market share (ie sales volume) as an indicator of how good the product is. What you have consistently failed to grasp is that the indicator you have chosen doesn't differentiate between different parts of the market and that Apple have sacrificed market share to go for the premium home market.

In a lot of other countries, PC is the preferred choice for corporations AND the casual consumer. I have already said a lot of people buy separate PC components and assemble them themselves or get them assembled by somebody that knows how to. These would be the middle class clients, which is a HUGE portion of the consumer chunk who buys assembled PCs, who don't even buy from Dell or HP, let alone Apple. Those are a lot of sales that go unaccounted for in the PC vs Mac tally.

I have never denied that Apple is the clear leader in tablets, smartphones and MP3 players.

And as markets like China and India gain in wealth and sophistication, people will likely stop buying things purely on technical specs and low cost and will start buying computer products for brand desirability. They are already doing so when it comes to watches and cars (especially in China which is a more advanced market) and other luxury items. Apple will then make inroads into the home computer market, perhaps other brands such as the Vaio range will be able to too.

Why do people keep comparing Apple with Ferrari? That's a bad example as I have already said a few pages ago. Let me quote myself to make it clearer:

Except your reasoning is wrong. Ferrari has often supplied inferior product to its rivals (Lamborghini Miura, Honda NSX, Porsche 911 and the Audi R8) whilst charging much higher prices successfully and adding value to its brand image regardless. It has only offered consistently better product in the last 10-15 years or so.

CaptainRaiden

29th June 2012, 12:57

Well, to cut this incredible time wasting exercise short, and avoid going in circles again, I will just say that I will never understand why it is okay to pay more for Apple computers, when I know I can get much better value for money with a PC. Even if I was wealthy, I would probably not pay extra knowing that I am not getting my money's worth. Same way I wouldn't buy a Ferrari just for the brand name. I would rather give the extra money to charity.

BUT I respect the choice of Apple consumers and if they want to buy Apple products, it is their damn choice. Apple is obviously doing something right, and that's why they're seeing this solid, steady growth. This discussion has gone on in circles on countless other threads on thousands of blogs and forums all across the web. Nobody wins, there's only a big black hole of wasted time.

I'm just about at the edge of finishing my work and enjoying my BBQ-with-whiskey weekend, and if this goes on more, I'm afraid I might spend the weekend working, and in my breaks bash Apple some more. So, yeah, that's pretty much it from me.

Malbec

29th June 2012, 13:37

Well, to cut this incredible time wasting exercise short, and avoid going in circles again, I will just say that I will never understand why it is okay to pay more for Apple computers, when I know I can get much better value for money with a PC. Even if I was wealthy, I would probably not pay extra knowing that I am not getting my money's worth. Same way I wouldn't buy a Ferrari just for the brand name. I would rather give the extra money to charity.

The best watch I ever had cost £5 (my parents bought it for me). It was a plastic digital Casio that served me well. Every single watch I've bought since has been progressively more inferior on a technical basis to that original watch. My current Seiko requires me to find a light if I want to read it in the dark and it loses a few seconds a day, something my Casio never did. Other people are willing to spend six figures on a watch thats equally technically inferior to my £5 Casio.

Technical specs and VFM aren't everything...

ioan

29th June 2012, 18:48

ioan

29th June 2012, 18:49

The best watch I ever had cost £5 (my parents bought it for me). It was a plastic digital Casio that served me well. Every single watch I've bought since has been progressively more inferior on a technical basis to that original watch. My current Seiko requires me to find a light if I want to read it in the dark and it loses a few seconds a day, something my Casio never did. Other people are willing to spend six figures on a watch thats equally technically inferior to my £5 Casio.

Technical specs and VFM aren't everything...

That's a piss pour analogy (pun intended).

While you can read the time on a 5$ watch just as well as on a 1000000$ one, try to use a CAD software made to run on a 2000$ laptop on a 100$ laptop (same goes for a recent Adobe software suite and many other software), then we can have a serious discussion about what technical specs are worth.

Jag_Warrior

29th June 2012, 21:23

When you have a product, you target it at a specific part of the market. That should be clear enough. The problem is that you are using market share (ie sales volume) as an indicator of how good the product is. What you have consistently failed to grasp is that the indicator you have chosen doesn't differentiate between different parts of the market and that Apple have sacrificed market share to go for the premium home market.

I was becoming concerned that maybe I was speaking Greek to a Roman (even though I don't speak Greek or Latin). But clearly, you (along with others here) get it. I feel redeemed. Thank you! :)

Although it wouldn't be 1:1, if Apple was as obsessed with market share as Captain feels they should be, they could easily begin producing some low cost Mac offerings that matched their PC counterparts feature for feature. They could even throw in a free copy of Parallels, so if you wanted to run Windows alongside the Mac OS, you could. And since Apple has greater supply chain strength than most any of them, they could probably offer the machines at a lower price than Dell, HP or whomever... and still make a greater profit than them. But I think you and I know that they will not do this. For one, these commodity machines would severely degrade the brand (as they have for Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.), but even worse (even at a slight profit), they would degrade margins. He doesn't want to talk about Ferrari any linger, but this is why Ferrari doesn't (and probably will never) offer a low cost sports car. They could easily slap a Ferrari badge on something that FIAT makes. Remember the Dino? Remember what that did for the Ferrari brand? In fact, they even tried to make it so that the "Dino" was a brand within Ferrari... not really a Ferrari itself. :rolleyes: But as for Apple, in addition to major successes with the iPhone, iPad and iPod, Apple's personal computer business could easily be a stand-alone business. But that success and brand maintenance is based on providing a given number of higher end, higher spec, higher quality machines at a higher price (= higher margins). From a research paper that I read a few years ago, Dell had to sell almost 5 PC's to equal the nominal profit $ that Apple got from 1 Mac sale. And that was before the MacBook Air came out. So I suspect that the ratio might be even higher now vs. the generic PC OEM's.

So, would Apple switch places with Dell (HP, Lenovo or any of the others)? Heck no! But would Dell (HP, Lenovo or any of the others) like to be able to give up some market share and get 5 times the profit they're getting now? Some might say they're trying that strategy as we speak. Hey, look... an Ultrabook. :D

P.S. I once worked for the global division of a large international conglomerate that was the largest manufacturer of a certain product. My division was the biggest in the world. No other company was even close to us when it came to volume or market share. But then the Chinese came in, started offering similar, but cheaper products (though without the engineering support that we offered) and turned the business into a commodity business. The margins went straight to hell! Life got real ugly real fast. The conglomerate decided that it didn't want to play in that low margin environment, so they closed many of the factories and sold what was left of our division to a bunch of private equity vultures. The remnants of that division are now a sad shadow of what it once was. So when I talk about trying to survive in a low margin environment, it's not just some theory I picked up while getting my MBA. I lived it! I left before the curtain came down - I'm not one who believes that there's any honor in "going down with the ship". But I watched good friends of mine lose their jobs... jobs many of them had had since high school. So if I wanted to build a PC to run a racing simulator (for instance), sure, I might ask the Captain for advice. But on the question of margins and market share, I can't see that he truly comprehends what this issue is all about. PC advice? Yes. You'd certainly ask him before you'd ask me. But business acumen? No. And I don't mean that to be at all insulting. Just an observation based on what I've seen here. We all have different strengths and weaknesses.

ioan

29th June 2012, 22:35

Well that is an area I have experience in and to be honest I can run SolidWorks on my 500 quid laptop as well as CS6. The arguement stemmed from the notion Apple computers have to be well specced and cost alot for you to run such programmes when in reality the cheapest MacBook Air will run CS6 no problem at all. Its par for the course at the end of the day and most consumers won't care whether they can run state of the art CAD software that costs 4 times what their laptop is worth anyway. You spec a computer for your needs at the end of the day, and pay what you wish to.

And you're not the only one so allow me to contradict you.
I guess you just start and shut down solid works, and you don't care if you watch the part turn by 2 frames every minute in case you want to see something on the other side of it.
I can certainly tell you that you can not make an assembly nor do any FEM calculations using for example Pro Engineer, or Solid Works for that matter, on a 500 quid laptop because it doesn't have the necessary performance for it, neither the computing power nor the graphics processing power and memory for displaying it properly).

ioan

29th June 2012, 22:37

P.S. I once worked for the global division of a large international conglomerate that was the largest manufacturer of a certain product. My division was the biggest in the world. No other company was even close to us when it came to volume or market share. But then the Chinese came in, started offering similar, but cheaper products (though without the engineering support that we offered) and turned the business into a commodity business. The margins went straight to hell! Life got real ugly real fast. The conglomerate decided that it didn't want to play in that low margin environment, so they closed many of the factories and sold what was left of our division to a bunch of private equity vultures. The remnants of that division are now a sad shadow of what it once was. So when I talk about trying to survive in a low margin environment, it's not just some theory I picked up while getting my MBA. I lived it! I left before the curtain came down - I'm not one who believes that there's any honor in "going down with the ship". But I watched good friends of mine lose their jobs... jobs many of them had had since high school.

Crap management was the reason there, really horrible job they've done on that one.

Malbec

29th June 2012, 23:00

So if I wanted to build a PC to run a racing simulator (for instance), sure, I might ask the Captain for advice. But on the question of margins and market share, I can't see that he truly comprehends what this issue is all about. PC advice? Yes. You'd certainly ask him before you'd ask me. But business acumen? No.

You hit the nail right on the head there, couldn't agree more.

Malbec

29th June 2012, 23:02

That's a piss pour analogy (pun intended).

While you can read the time on a 5$ watch just as well as on a 1000000$ one, try to use a CAD software made to run on a 2000$ laptop on a 100$ laptop (same goes for a recent Adobe software suite and many other software), then we can have a serious discussion about what technical specs are worth.

I admit my analogy was utterly simplistic but unfortunately more complicated explanations of the disconnect between technical specifications and market value were ineffective so...

Jag_Warrior

29th June 2012, 23:29

Crap management was the reason there, really horrible job they've done on that one.

Although there were certain management issues, that was not even close to being the root cause of our major issue. Again, when a product begins being seen as a commodity, margins shrink, and with that, the stock price of the parent corporation will begin to suffer, if that division is a meaningful part of the whole. The Chinese companies, with government backing and subsidies, didn't care about margins. They'll do things to (unfairly) kill the competition. We had out President sitting before Congress in 2004 to address the below cost dumping and intellectual property theft that was taking place. But our Congress was/is full of bribe taking scoundrels and the Bush Administration acted like they didn't know how to file a case with the WTO. So there we were. Off-loading that division made sense, from a corporate perspective. Even a half decent CEO knows enough not to let a 15-20% portion of the overall company drag the whole thing down.

It doesn't matter if we're talking about cars, car parts, computers or watermelons... given one or the other, margins matter more than market share. Fact.

airshifter

1st July 2012, 07:28

So yeah, you pretty much attacked me with assumptions, without knowing bat$hit about me, and now you're accusing me of assuming. That's rich!

My statement was not based on assumptions, it was in direct reply to a statement you made.

Again, I must live in a parallel universe. The 10-15 programmers I know (one of them works for Qualcomm in San Diego, CA, one for Google in Bangalore and some others for bioinformatics companies) are not Mac fans whatsoever. It is from talking with them that I got this "anti-Apple" attitude. :p

Linux is the primary choice, followed by Windows at least for the ones that I know.

I reponded based on what you said, and after that time you stated it was simply a joke. So my statement was made on information you posted, yet your statement on users being hands on was based entirely on assumption.

Again, you're missing the point by a landslide dude. Nobody is denying that on similar specced machines, rendering capabilities will be equal, and the Mac may even be a better computer for graphic design (not in my personal experience, but if people are so convinced, I'm willing to agree that yes, it may have some advantages).

The point is that for the price of a top-end Mac, you get almost a double spec PC, and at the end of the day, since you're so well aware of what factors affect rendering, you would know that smooth and fast rendering depends pretty much 90% on how good your hardware is. A "robust" OS can only go as far as the hardware will allow it to go, no matter how many times you have to reboot it. :rolleyes: So, repeating again, for the same money, Adobe CS and other graphic design software will operate the same on both machines, but since PC components, especially when assembling, are MUCH cheaper than Mac, you will build a significantly faster rendering machine.

I want to make it very clear that better hardware however means squat when it comes to general, every day use, and in that case, it really doesn't matter whether you buy a Mac or a PC. But for rendering capabilities, better hardware is always tops. And that is a FACT. I have worked as a graphic designer, and used the Adobe CS on both machines. You can't tell the difference operating wise, but a PC with better hardware will always render faster and be lighter on your pocket. I have also used Final Cut Pro on Mac and Avid on PC for video editing. If the raw file is huge, which it usually is, sometimes in 100s of GBs, it ALWAYS helps to have better hardware. While FCP is tops as far as UI goes, Avid will render faster on a PC with better hardware. Smoother and faster rendering also means lesser hangs, lags, glitches in the final video.

I can't agree with the above. Once again based on first hand information and years of experience I've seen that software plays a huge role. I don't dispute for a second that given the same software efficiency that hardware will always help, but having two that work properly together is also a big factor.

In my sign days I had a DOS based program that only used 1 meg of memory. That's correct, 1 MEG of memory. I used this program for years into the Windows days, running under a DOS window. The program would spool plotter jobs, multitask, and do many things much better than any Windows based software of the time that I tried. I also ran Photoshop and Corel (I think Corel was version 8 or so at the time) and they could use all of the memory in my system... probably 32 or 64 megs at the time. They would frequently choke, lock up, or just plain fail at digitizing vector graphics that the old DOS program would turn out day in and day out without issue.

Granted this software did not come cheap... but that is part of your argument. Cheap hardware is good right? I've seen time and time again that cheap is not always better. Apple has the advantage of providing hardware and software, and thus limits issues with various products not always being compatible with certain operating systems and such. IMO this became much worse in the Windows world when they started using the "Plug and Play" approach. Back when Windows allowed more user control you could configure what you wanted much better. I ran plotters, printers, faxes, scanners and such all at the same time with older versions, yet when the new "better" systems came out they wouldn't allow me to run the same devices in some cases. The newer better hardware was doing nothing for me at the time, and at one point I put together a box with an older OS until I found better solutions.

Also, US and UK are not the whole world. So, the claims that majority of the graphic designers all over the world use Mac is a bold one, and needs some serious backing up. Are you sure Apple sells the same amount of Macs in Asia, Asia Pacific, Europe than it does in US and UK? Sales figures say otherwise.

You are correct on this issue. In developed western nations the majority use Macs. In areas of the world where people have no food or money a stick drawing in the sand is likely the preferred hardware and user interface. I've never seen any data that contradicts the majority of designers using Macs, but to be honest I don't really care if that has changed. People can use whatever they want, this thread is about opinions.... actually supposed to be about phones and tablets but has drifted to PCs due to the anti iPad and iPhone crowd.

At least read my posts thoroughly before attacking me.

See above. My response that you took offense to was based on your statements that I quoted. There was no attack involved.

Again, you are comparing the wrong device, and also looking at it only on the surface with an "overly simplistic" view. Just because your daughter's old phone is "smoother", doesn't mean it's a better phone. Sure, on the surface it would seem like, but what about the majority of other tasks? Mac OS X's window transitions are faster and smoother than Windows 7, but does it mean it's faster? No. Does it render faster? NO. It would be pretty noobish for anybody to assume that just because a phone doesn't lag at the UI, it's a better phone.

Since you consider Apple products to be the best, compare them with the best. Sorry, but the Droid has a history of way too many problems for it to be considered a real competitor to even the older iPhone 4. All Android smartphone manufacturers have interspersed the Android OS with their own UI (user interface). Some win, some fail badly. Motorola's motoblur is one such fail.

Samsung is the main competitor to Apple in the smartphone market, and Galaxy S2 is a much better comparison. It has better hardware, bigger screen, doesn't lag, works faster, smoother, and is cheaper than even the older iPhone 4.

It seems you are the one missing my point here. Does the older iPod have superior hardware to my Droid? What I'm stating is that the hardware and software combined create the package. I didn't even say the iPod in my example was superior, just that in some cases it had advantages. Side by side my Droid will outperform my fathers iPhone 4 in the vast majority of tasks, but not all of them. But both perform the tasks just fine, and most of the time you aren't side by side watching which one finishes first. As I said earlier, the user speed of interaction probably plays a bigger role.

Your own statements about the various Android user interfaces follow the point I'm making... hardware alone does not rule the show. If it did the higher spec system/tablet/phone would always win.

The only Apple product in our home is my kids iPod, but I'm open minded enough to know that having a PC or three that I've built myself doesn't make me better or smarter than an Apple user. And it certainly doesn't make any Apple users regret their decision because I saved a few bucks... they are probably laughing when I'm looking for a new driver for a device. :D

Dave B

2nd July 2012, 13:30

If there was no iPhone on the market, Android devices would be the market leaders no doubt
They are ;)

BleAivano

4th July 2012, 17:52

according to yahoo news, Andoid currently have the biggest market share in the USA, Android holds a 51% market share in the USA.

Android (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AqnaOnZvN_GmD4iHWwJohfD99XQA;_ylu=X3oDMTFqaWd 2Ymg3BG1pdANBcnRpY2xlIEJvZHkEcG9zAzIEc2VjA01lZGlhQ XJ0aWNsZUJvZHlBc3NlbWJseQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTMwNDQxa2U1BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDNjgwOTQzMTYtN2ZmZC0zODBmLTlhYzYtNDNjN2IyMG IxOWI3BHBzdGNhdAN0ZWNofHdpcmVsZXNzBHB0A3N0b3J5cGFn ZQ--;_ylv=0/SIG=12j0mme56/EXP=1342629908/**http%3A//www.bgr.com/2012/06/27/android-4-1-jelly-bean-announced/) is still the most popular smartphone operating system in the United States by a wide margin, as comScore has once again
found that Android was on more than half of all active smartphones in the U.S during the three months ending in May. In all, Android (http://www.bgr.com/tag/android/) accounted
for just under 51% of all active U.S. smartphones in over the three-month period, followed by Apple’s iOS (http://www.bgr.com/2012/06/12/apple-ios-6-features-android-opinion-criticism/) at just under 32%, RIM’s BlackBerry OS at 11.4%
and Microsoft’s Windows Phone at 4%.

Android still has over 50% U.S. smartphone market share, says comScore - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/android-still-over-50-u-smartphone-market-share-185049687.html)

cali

4th July 2012, 18:16

They presently have enough consumers to be considered the market leader at the luxury end of the market however. Its all relative. All I can say is :eek: :eek: :confused: . Luxury and mobile phones ....

Big Ben

4th July 2012, 21:59

iOS... Android... whos cares? they're all evil. It's my impression it's not the man owning the smartphone but the smartphone owning the man. You see them walking around listening to the evil device, talking to it... texting all the time... they text while driving.... facebook status... just missed a red light hihiihi.. forget about privacy... you go some place it's on the internet in a few seconds... X cheched in with Big Ben at some place... Big Ben went from being "in a relationship" to "it's complicated" or in a relation****...

and there's all this cheap internet, phone calls and loads of SMS'... if someone wants to come by I receive 4-5 calls on the matter... hey I might come by... hey just left... hey want me to buy something... hey just arrived. Sometimes I miss the days when you'd had to think a bit before making a phone call.

So instead of fighting lets unite and burn them all. grab you pitch forks and light the torches.

Malbec

5th July 2012, 08:23

Big Ben

5th July 2012, 09:05

and speaking of facebook... it seems to me so many buy this expensive and powerful devices just because the old ones or just a computer wouldn't do the job... the job of 'liking' of so many stuff. There's funny sayings and witty remarks and cute cats doing funny things that their hundreds or thousands friends bother to share that have to be liked... and they need to have it with them all the time to avoid by any means being missed by someone. I think I'll have to explain to my nephews the concept of missing someone.

I came across a message or status or whatever those are ...the other day saying... I was involved in an accident... and this and that... and guess what you could read underneath? Y likes this! WTF does that suppose to mean? :laugh:

Dave B

5th July 2012, 10:13

Big Ben

5th July 2012, 10:56

Two points. (1) Smartphone ownership and use is not compulsory, (2) there are also a lot of productive uses for said technology.

I agree

airshifter

5th July 2012, 11:37

race aficionado

5th July 2012, 20:55

iCaramba!
:)

2974

Sent from my iPhone

ArrowsFA1

6th July 2012, 07:23

Extraordinary to remember the time when the only phone a family had between them was plugged into a socket in the wall and went nowhere. All you could do with it was make and receive phone calls. I rarely used ours, not because I wasn't allowed to but because I didn't need to.

What were we thinking?!! :eek: :p

Big Ben

6th July 2012, 07:45

I'm 28 in 10 days so it can't be the age gap :P:

airshifter

6th July 2012, 12:25

I'm probably alot younger than you but I use facebook and twitter daily. I'm not one of those people who writes silly status updates and whinges about trivial things nobody is really interested in. I stay in touch with friends from all over, and usually after a meet up or a drunken night out, the pictures end up on FB and friends discuss humorous things and memories etc lol. I couldn't be without a phone that has access to social networking, as I use it as often as email and text. I think thats the way technology has gone and has made people alot more sociable. Some people think facebook and twitter stop people actually talking to people in person but I think it bridges the gap between actual socialising and has encouraged people to stay in touch and make more of an effort. For me anyway. I've also rekindled friendships with people I haven't seen for years over facebook and met up after messaging. Social networking can be a great tool if people use it properly IMO. It doesn't mean friends don't phone each other anymore, certainly not in my life. :)

This type of use makes sense to me... you are simply staying in touch with mostly a group of people you actually know.

What I'm speaking of is the people with 1000 "friends" most of whom they have never met, and never intend to meet. For the game players and such they often add each other to exchange items and such things, and that does make some sense at least. I just don't get the people that substitute online friends for reality.

BleAivano

6th July 2012, 15:54

All good points. All of this "social networking" has resulted in sometimes useless information overload.

I got a smart phone when it was required by my job, and I always lived just fine without one.
If I want to check the status of a friend, I use the "phone" feature. I don't consider liking one of their posts an actual contact of sorts.

Well calling would b very expensive if you a have a bunch of friends and particular if someone isn't living in the same country.
Also social networking like this forum gives you an opportunity to "meet" people that you otherwise would not have get to meet.

Also a smart phone is so much more then the facebook and twitter. I find it very useful, i regularly use features such as calculator, maps, direction finder,
public transportation apps, curerency converter, calendar, weather, email, messaging, mediaplayer...

Mark

6th July 2012, 20:22

If there were no iPhone then there would be no Android at all. Nokia would likely still reign supreme.

ioan

6th July 2012, 21:56

If there were no iPhone then there would be no Android at all. Nokia would likely still reign supreme.

And the proof to that is?

airshifter

7th July 2012, 05:35

Well calling would b very expensive if you a have a bunch of friends and particular if someone isn't living in the same country.
Also social networking like this forum gives you an opportunity to "meet" people that you otherwise would not have get to meet.

Also a smart phone is so much more then the facebook and twitter. I find it very useful, i regularly use features such as calculator, maps, direction finder,
public transportation apps, curerency converter, calendar, weather, email, messaging, mediaplayer...

I completely agree that smartphones are a great thing with a lot of useful features.... just making the point that most people could live just fine without them. These days people act as if life would stop without one.

And once again, I agree on the social networking as long as it's in line with reality. Similar to the social networking that takes place on forums such as this, most people find a spot in reality for how it fits in their life. I find a number of people on this forum interesting, and I'm sure I could get along with them fine in real life. I'm sure I could enjoy some type of motorsport with a great many here. But until then I consider them online acquaintance of sorts, even the ones I know more about. I don't consider them all "friends" because I understand the limited information most of us exchange.

Mark

7th July 2012, 08:51

pino

7th July 2012, 09:47

Can't wait to get my hands on the iPhone 5 :D

ioan

8th July 2012, 19:33

Proof. WTF. This is a discussion not a Wikipedia article.

Android was a response to iOS and designed on similar lines and set up to compete with it.

It's fair to say no iPhone no Android at least not as we know it.

So anyone can claim whatever crap because it is a discussion?
Well your claim is wrong. And I see no use to post proof to my claim as this is just a discussion.
This new way of having a discussion looks fun!

BTW the reason why we get new products and solutions is called evolution, otherwise we wouldn't ever had the first phone, let alone the first mobile phone or smart phone, and we would still live in caves with no internet to have discussions like this one.

And iPhone was not the first smartphone.

Mark

8th July 2012, 20:45

BleAivano

9th July 2012, 19:30

So you are saying that if the iPhone never existed that the likes of the Samsung Galaxy S3 would be exactly like it is now. Of course not, these things are not designed in a vacuum.

Who knows maybe without Apple physical keyboards would still be all the rage.

you could also say that if there would not have been Palm pilots then perhaps apple would not have come up with the iphone.

So if i may ask where to draw then limit? Today's smartphones is just the current step in the phone development staircase.
Each step is just taking the previous step and taking it a step higher/further.

Mark

9th July 2012, 19:36

Indeed you're right.

cali

9th July 2012, 20:15

Jolla (http://mynokiablog.com/2012/07/09/jollas-meego-based-phone-with-new-ui-coming-this-year/)
Hopefully this turns out to be a real deal :)

Big Ben

10th July 2012, 14:14

You know how it is with ioan... he's a very emotional guy. He either adores or hates it like poison. I wouldn't be surprised to hear he doesn't eat apples because of this :laugh: . So much passion for a commercial product. it's fascinating.

chikkus

12th July 2012, 18:22

Hi,
I had a similar doubt!!!!
Its worth saying that this iPad is only running a similar OS to the iTouch/iPhone and hence, can't multitask. So it can't even be compared to a Linux/Windows Netbook. Please reply regarding this.

Mark

12th July 2012, 19:41

iOS isn't a full multitasking OS like Windows but allows multitasking in some limited ways such as playing music etc. But most apps are frozen when they are closed rather than allowed to run in the background.

Andrewmcm

13th July 2012, 12:18

Don't all facets of industry copy each other? Let's look at the reason we all inhabit this board - motor sport. Someone has a cool idea in F1 that works, and at the next race everyone has their own version.

The only difference in the corporate world is the idea of patents and idea protection.

Dave B

13th July 2012, 20:15

I often wonder what the point of having a smartphone in China is?
To sell to westerners on eBay! You can already get knockoff iPhones for well under $200, and apparently there are fake Galaxy S3s for around the same price - with surprisingly good specs such as 720p screens and dual SIM slots!

Mark

13th July 2012, 20:23

Guy at work used tethering trough his S3 and increased the connection speed of his laptop over our fixed line connection!

Malbec

16th July 2012, 19:44

I often wonder what the point of having a smartphone in China is? Most of the web content especially social media is blocked lol.
[/LEFT]

Status status and status!

When the iPhone 2 came out I remember Chinese were so willing to pay a premium for a phone that isn't even sold there that plenty of people were signing up full iPhone contracts in the US, unlocking the phone then selling them on in China for a profit so that should give you an idea of how popular they are.

As for social media, things like Facebook are banned but there are ways of getting round that, and usually there's a kosher Chinese equivalent of things like Twitter and Youtube that are freely available and popular.

airshifter

17th July 2012, 12:03

Well my HTC Incredible S decided to upgrade to Android 4.0 or Icecream Sandwich today. It took over an hour to download and install which was annoying though. I have to say I am impressed as it suddenly feels like a totally different phone and the OS is vastly improved. Its got a very Apple influenced tool bar across the bottom which can also be customized like the iPhone. They are certainly improving and pushing the innovation in the right direction IMO. My boss has upgraded to the S3 and I have been having a good play with it and I am still keeping it on my upgrade list to compare to the new iPhone 5. I liked the new Android software so its going to make my decision harder no doubt :) .

My Droid Razr did the upgrade on Friday the 13th, after I chose to delay it a day because I didn't want the phone down for 15 minutes the previous morning. I already had the tool bar with Gingerbread, and to be honest wish I hadn't done the upgrade until at least Saturday.

So far I haven't found anything that is really better, or really worse. It was just enough of a change in things to make doing business a PITA on Friday. Everything I used on a regular basis changed just enough to make me think about what was until then an automatic action for me. It also changed a few apps and widgets that I had used previously and found better or more handy than the replacements, so that is taking some getting used to.

My upgrade was fairly quick (10-15 minutes tops) and painless, but getting used the new interface is taking some time. I still think the human part of the interface will make much more difference in speed of execution of any task. In that sense a user familiar with just about any OS will probably outperform a user less familiar with a supposed "superior" OS.

CaptainRaiden

31st July 2012, 11:42

Well, thought to take a breather from this incredibly crazy work schedule to update and give a review on my brand new Galaxy S3 32 GB I've owned for about 3 weeks now. :) I've worked extremely hard in the past year, still am, so I guess I deserved a nice gift for myself. :p

This is the best piece of tech I have ever used or owned, period. I love how light it is, and how beautifully large the screen is. With the hardware, it is a joy to play even the most demanding of games with ease. Been playing GTA III, Dead Trigger, Shadowgun, Wind-up Knight etc. I have now about half of my music and movies library on my phone, around 80+ apps, and so even the 32 GB storage would fill up soon, and I'm looking to expand it with a Sandisk 64 GB microSD card to get the total up to an impressive 90+ GB.

With Poweramp installed, and Sony MDR earbuds, I don't think I have experienced better sound quality ever on any other device. It's musical bliss.

The battery is a beast. I have eight email accounts I need mails fetched from, 4 company emails, 2 Gmail and 2 yahoo accounts. With all of them active 24/7, my older phone ran out of juice in about 7-8 hours. Galaxy S3 goes twice as much even with the huge HD screen, using maps, GPS, about 4 or 5 widgets on 3 home screens, playing 3D games, and listening to music for an ample period of time. Android ICS is smooth, responsive, highly customizable and pretty much the best OS I have ever used.

Touchwhiz doesn't bother me that much, but I will be looking to root it to stock Android 4.1 JB once it's reported to be working stable. So, overall I'd say I'm pretty happy with my new phone. :D 4.5/5 IMO.

CaptainRaiden

31st July 2012, 12:12

Pleased to hear you are happy with your purchase. My boss has since upgraded to one aswell (not keen on his colour choice) but an amazing phone nonetheless. Just wish Apple would hurry up and release the new iPhone which isn't allowed to be called the 'iPhone 5' as it'll be the sixth generation anyway lol. Quite glad the whole numbers thing is being dropped. I'm in no hurry and once I have two phones I like to compare, I will make my choice based on that. :)

I held both the marbile white and pebble blue versions in my hands, and the blue one was an instant winner for me AND my wife. Anyway, I was never a fan of white phones to begin with. :D

Believe it or not, I too am interested in seeing how the latest iPhone pans out. So far from rumor pics it looks pretty much like a stretched out 4S, and going by Apple's iPhone history, they'll most likely keep the same form factor, but well, you never know.

Reading about what's new in the iOS 6, there's nothing revolutionary and it has some little upgrades. Major upgrade being their own Maps (brave IMO ditching Google maps) and another one is that Passbook thingy for tickets and stuff, which IMO will take years for global implementation.

I was never gonna buy an iPhone anyway, so Galaxy S3 seemed like a good opportunity to jump on. ;)

CaptainRaiden

31st July 2012, 12:24

CaptainRaiden

31st July 2012, 12:36

I hope they keep the same 'form factor' and it doesn't change too much. I love the simple design and its instantly recognisable which is something that appeals to myself. I love innovation of course being a product designer and my opinion has nothing to do with not accepting change or anything like that. I won't be disappointed if it looks very similar at the front to a 4S but with a bigger screen.

This is what the insiders are claiming to the most accurate leaked pic of the new iPhone yet.

http://cdn2.mos.techradar.com//art/mobile_phones/iPhone/iPhone%205/leaks/iPhone5_02_FullCase-900-90.jpg

Looks neat I guess.

Well, for me it's diving back into the abyss of non-stop work. The good news is it's all for my own business. Can never hurt to have a heavy workload when you're the owner. :)

donKey jote

31st July 2012, 15:06

This is what the insiders are claiming to the most accurate leaked pic of the new iPhone yet.

http://cdn2.mos.techradar.com//art/mobile_phones/iPhone/iPhone%205/leaks/iPhone5_02_FullCase-900-90.jpg

Looks neat I guess.

looks like a Samsung :hmph: :andrea: :p

Dave B

31st July 2012, 17:01

Dave B

31st July 2012, 17:05

AnandTech - The Google Nexus 7 Review (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6073/the-google-nexus-7-review)

Very good for its price, but surprisingly Google skimping out on expandable memory. :mad:

Pretty much to drive more users to their cloud storage Google Drive thingy.

One of the reasons I buy Android devices over Apple is for the expandable memory. If they dumb that option down as well, what's the point? I don't wanna be limited to using cloud storage for bigger files effectively only in wi-fi zones, and I'm screwed even further if it's a slow wi-fi zone.

Microsoft Surface is looking more and more like a better option IMO.
I've just ordered a 7" tablet with an SD slot, USB and HDMI out for £60, as a present for the missus. It's a third of the price of a Nexus (and a sixth of the price of an iPad) so I'm not expecting miracles, but it's got a reasonable processor and memory, and runs vanilla ICS with no dodgy manufacturer overlays so how bad can it be? The only issues on the reviews seem to be disappointing battery life, but I believe it takes an easily sourced Sony battery so we can keep a spare if that turns out to be the case.

Dave B

31st July 2012, 17:37

I really wouldn't pay too much attention to the rumours as they are usually so far out from reality. I've heard so many rumours contradicting each other that its clear the only people who really know what the next iPhone will have are those very close to the company. Reliable leaks are very rare from Apple and lets remember Apple orchestrate certain leaks. Remember the iPhone prototype left on a train a few years ago? It was taken very seriously by those wishing for a spoiler but in hindsight gave very little away as it wasn't the next iPhone at the time.
All true, but as time goes on the rumours prove more and more accurate: I'm basing this on sources which have proved to be totally correct regarding specs of the last few iPhones and the last iPad. Don't forget that Apple manufacture very little themselves, and the supply chain gears up for new hardware months ahead (the new phone's on track for September, so will already be in production). So many people work on the components that accurate snippets of information do leak out.

Hardware aside, Apple themselves have already announce iOS6 and there's very little of use contained therein, it's really a service pack which downgrades your maps and makes Siri a bit less hopeless.

CaptainRaiden

31st July 2012, 19:11

I've just ordered a 7" tablet with an SD slot, USB and HDMI out for £60, as a present for the missus. It's a third of the price of a Nexus (and a sixth of the price of an iPad) so I'm not expecting miracles, but it's got a reasonable processor and memory, and runs vanilla ICS with no dodgy manufacturer overlays so how bad can it be? The only issues on the reviews seem to be disappointing battery life, but I believe it takes an easily sourced Sony battery so we can keep a spare if that turns out to be the case.

Wow, that sounds interesting. Would be very helpful if you can post a review once you've gotten it. I was thinking about buying my parents a cheap Android tablet to swipe through photos from their digital camera straight through the SD card and to stay connected via Skype. Does it have a front facing camera by any chance?

Of course I was looking at Nexus 7 as a possible option, but the absence of a microSD slot is a huge downer, and other tablets are grossly overpriced for what they offer.

What's the product/model name for this 60 pound tablet? I have a friend coming over from the UK soon, maybe I can order it via Amazon UK and he can bring it over.

Mark

31st July 2012, 21:03

Underwhelmed by the iPhone 5 rumours so far. I'll probably get one but straight away? I dunno. The changing connector is a big issue as I have all sorts of stuff for the current dock connector. Not to mention my wife would require different chargers.

donKey jote

31st July 2012, 21:52

Crisis, what crisis?

An electronic media chain here in Spain announced a discount of 18% on all goods for two days, to "compensate" for the raise in IVA (VAT) as of September...
the place was absolutey packed, with some people buying 2-3 iPads at a time - paid for in cash of course :rolleyes:

airshifter

1st August 2012, 02:48

I have to take back some of my early enthusiasm for Android 4.0. In the days after the install my phone has become very slow and laggy. Alot of people it seems have had similar issues with it. The phone just isn't up to such a demanding OS. I have to wait 5 seconds on average whenever I press an icon and swiping between screens is very unresponsive. If I knew how to, I would revert it back to the old software which was a pleasure to use. My battery life has also gone down considerably. Not good. :(

Interesting. It only makes sense that OS upgrades would work fine on some hardware and not on others, but that seems like a really big decrease in efficiency. On my Droid Razr it didn't seem to change much of anything other than the interface. The phone still performs well, but overall for all the people screaming about OS versions to me it seemed like change just for the sake of change.

I prefer my Ice Cream Sandwich in the freezer, where I can grab it for a snack. Otherwise I'm unimpressed with how it changes my phone. Maybe there are exceptions to this, but I think some of the people that get all excited at just in it for the novelty of the new OS.

CaptainRaiden

1st August 2012, 09:09

Interesting. It only makes sense that OS upgrades would work fine on some hardware and not on others, but that seems like a really big decrease in efficiency. On my Droid Razr it didn't seem to change much of anything other than the interface. The phone still performs well, but overall for all the people screaming about OS versions to me it seemed like change just for the sake of change.

I prefer my Ice Cream Sandwich in the freezer, where I can grab it for a snack. Otherwise I'm unimpressed with how it changes my phone. Maybe there are exceptions to this, but I think some of the people that get all excited at just in it for the novelty of the new OS.

Personally I feel it's a big step up from the older 2.3, especially in the way multitasking or media streaming is so much better and smoother than any other phone, particularly the under specced Apple phones. If you'd bothered to try these yourselves or look it up, ICS would seem much more attractive than it does to you right now.

You can resize your widgets, which is so handy when you're trying to cram 3 or 4 widgets on the same home screen as per your convenience. I don't have to open several apps to get my data or even swipe to another home screen. I get all my info fetched on the same screen. I can play pause my music, read news, latest tweets and change my network settings all on one screen. This makes it highly customizable.

Google Maps is so much better integrated with the OS that it's hands down the best GPS experience I've had, better than even standalone GPS devices.

It handles higher resolution media much smoother, as I just experienced playing a movie on a 42 inch screen through my phone using an HDMI adapter. Although this is where the phone's hardware matters more, and so the Galaxy S3 handles it better.

I use Chrome on the PC, laptop and also on the Galaxy S3 and have synced them through my gmail account. Once I press the sync button on the Chrome app on my phone, all the web pages currently open on my PC AND Laptop are brought onto my phone as respective tabs under their computer names, and it saves them for later use, which is an amazingly convenient feature and a huge timesaver especially if you are in a hurry. Also, it remembers all those pages until the next time you sync it. So, you can open all the pages on your PC, sync them with your phone and shut down the PC and go on a vacation. All those tabs will be at your fingertips every time you open Chrome on your phone.

For a better rundown of other features, I believe these links should suffice:

10 sweetest features of Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich - Technolog on NBCNews.com (http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/technology/technolog/10-sweetest-features-android-4-0-ice-cream-sandwich-118969)

http://mashable.com/2012/05/03/android-ice-cream-sandwich-vs-ios/

Things have gotten even better with 4.1 jelly bean, and I agree with the people who say that whatever they have seen of iOS6 or used of it in beta looks underwhelming compared to Android's latest offering.

CaptainRaiden

1st August 2012, 09:21

_Gq_ZU9p5Nk

This is quite amazing. The guy has connected the Galaxy S3 to a TV via an HDMI adapter, and a PS3 controller wirelessly via bluetooth, and is using it as a console to play Android games on the TV!

This can be a sneak peak of the Android based games console coming later this year.

Not that I'm particularly inclined towards playing phone games on a TV, but it's nice to know it's an option. Better gaming and streaming high resolution movies is where a phone's better hardware matters which just a smooth OS can't do.

CaptainRaiden

1st August 2012, 11:24

I opened a bottle of lager with my phone the other day.

That's nice. Don't expect the iPhone 5 to do much more than that either. :p

Dave B

1st August 2012, 13:03

What's the product/model name for this 60 pound tablet? I have a friend coming over from the UK soon, maybe I can order it via Amazon UK and he can bring it over.
Here you go:

Fineslate T01 7" MULTITOUCH tablet, with Capacitive: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007L9YZP4/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00)

My bad, it was £69, I forgot that I used a £10 voucher towards it, but even so it's a bargain. It arrived today (next day, despite me only paying for economy!) and I've stuck it on charge and powered it up to check it works, but can't do much else as it's a prezzie.

First impressions: it's surprisingly solidly built, the screen is bright and clear although obviously not particularly great resolution. Judging by the power-up noise the built in speaker is pretty dire but then to be fair I don't know of any tablet with decent onboard sound. There's a micro-SD slot at the bottom, as well as mini-HDMI and USB ports.

Like I said, I'm not expecting miracles at that price, but it seems like it'll be perfect for browsing and light recreational gaming. I'll let you know in the next few weeks how it fares in real life testing. :)

PS, the courier's just emailed to say my S3 is on a van wending its way towards me :D :up:

CaptainRaiden

1st August 2012, 23:28

Here you go:

Fineslate T01 7" MULTITOUCH tablet, with Capacitive: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007L9YZP4/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00)

My bad, it was £69, I forgot that I used a £10 voucher towards it, but even so it's a bargain. It arrived today (next day, despite me only paying for economy!) and I've stuck it on charge and powered it up to check it works, but can't do much else as it's a prezzie.

First impressions: it's surprisingly solidly built, the screen is bright and clear although obviously not particularly great resolution. Judging by the power-up noise the built in speaker is pretty dire but then to be fair I don't know of any tablet with decent onboard sound. There's a micro-SD slot at the bottom, as well as mini-HDMI and USB ports.

Like I said, I'm not expecting miracles at that price, but it seems like it'll be perfect for browsing and light recreational gaming. I'll let you know in the next few weeks how it fares in real life testing. :)

Looks good! I read some Amazon reviews and they're all positive, but I'll wait for your more unbiased, hands-on review. No hurry, I've got ample time, and I'm gonna do a bit of my own research too. It's surprisingly packed for only about 70 pounds. It seems to be JUST the thing I was looking for. Cheap, runs Android ICS, lets my non-techy parents view photos from their camera, and keep in touch via Skype. They're always at home, so battery life is no issue either. Perfecto. Thanks Dave.

PS, the courier's just emailed to say my S3 is on a van wending its way towards me :D :up:

Congrats! :up: Don't forget to get the free 50 GB on Dropbox and the Eurosport free account.

CaptainRaiden

1st August 2012, 23:34

I must admit when I come to upgrade I doubt I'll admit here what I go for. If I go for the S3 I'll probably hear that I made the best choice because the iPhone was crap anyway which I won't apreciate because my wife is getting it and I'll share her excitement. If I go for the iPhone I won't want to be put on a downer if I am happy with my choice. Nothing worse than that IMO :\

Why would you care what other people think? Do people's opinion matter this much to you? I'll buy a pink shirt if I really like it, no matter how much everyone else tells me that it looks fruity as hell. :p

I'm not ashamed to buy a 70 pound cheap tablet even for myself, when my friends have iPads and Galaxy tabs. I bought the blue Galaxy S3 even though everyone from here, the media and the annoying shop assistant told me the white one is better.

There'll be always detractors bashing everything. Who cares? Just buy what you like and enjoy. ;)

Mark

2nd August 2012, 09:18

I've just blown all the money I would have spent on an iPhone on a bicycle instead, Apple were too slow :p

CaptainRaiden

2nd August 2012, 09:31

I was just suggesting I 'may' be inclined not to discuss it here in the immediate aftermath as not to have people pulling apart my choice.

Even if they do that, why care?

airshifter

2nd August 2012, 12:25

Personally I feel it's a big step up from the older 2.3, especially in the way multitasking or media streaming is so much better and smoother than any other phone, particularly the under specced Apple phones. If you'd bothered to try these yourselves or look it up, ICS would seem much more attractive than it does to you right now.

You can resize your widgets, which is so handy when you're trying to cram 3 or 4 widgets on the same home screen as per your convenience. I don't have to open several apps to get my data or even swipe to another home screen. I get all my info fetched on the same screen. I can play pause my music, read news, latest tweets and change my network settings all on one screen. This makes it highly customizable.

Google Maps is so much better integrated with the OS that it's hands down the best GPS experience I've had, better than even standalone GPS devices.

It handles higher resolution media much smoother, as I just experienced playing a movie on a 42 inch screen through my phone using an HDMI adapter. Although this is where the phone's hardware matters more, and so the Galaxy S3 handles it better.

I use Chrome on the PC, laptop and also on the Galaxy S3 and have synced them through my gmail account. Once I press the sync button on the Chrome app on my phone, all the web pages currently open on my PC AND Laptop are brought onto my phone as respective tabs under their computer names, and it saves them for later use, which is an amazingly convenient feature and a huge timesaver especially if you are in a hurry. Also, it remembers all those pages until the next time you sync it. So, you can open all the pages on your PC, sync them with your phone and shut down the PC and go on a vacation. All those tabs will be at your fingertips every time you open Chrome on your phone.

For a better rundown of other features, I believe these links should suffice:

10 sweetest features of Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich - Technolog on NBCNews.com (http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/technology/technolog/10-sweetest-features-android-4-0-ice-cream-sandwich-118969)

http://mashable.com/2012/05/03/android-ice-cream-sandwich-vs-ios/

Things have gotten even better with 4.1 jelly bean, and I agree with the people who say that whatever they have seen of iOS6 or used of it in beta looks underwhelming compared to Android's latest offering.

The resizing of more widgets is handy, but to be honest I don't see the changes in the other features. My daughter has one of the older iPods and side by side the video on both is great. As I said, I remain unimpressed after all the hype.

CaptainRaiden

2nd August 2012, 13:04

The resizing of more widgets is handy, but to be honest I don't see the changes in the other features. My daughter has one of the older iPods and side by side the video on both is great. As I said, I remain unimpressed after all the hype.

To each their own in this case then. For me, the widget resizing, maps and Chrome syncing are impressive and very handy features, especially the Chrome syncing helps out a lot for the line of work I am in. Chrome for ICS is also the fastest web browser I have used on any handheld device, and I have tried them all.

CaptainRaiden

2nd August 2012, 13:23

Going back to this I have read positive and negative reviews/opinions on both iOS 6 and Android Jellybean. Having watched demo's of Jellybean on YouTube I can't say I was jumping for joy or in awe at the features it offered but it wasn't bad either. Its very different and I'm sure you will love it regardless of what others think but that works for any consumer with a preference. I would be happy with it on a phone, like I have adapted to all other versions over the past 3 years. Gizmodo are a good source because their writers tend to have very different opinions regarding both OS's and they don't stick to one theme. Some are very pro Android, some pro Apple and some impartial on both. iOS 6 and its breakdown of features hasn't worried me or given me the opinion its worse than Androids offering, but then again I'm not looking for the faults in it either. I saw a review where a guy had Jellybean on a Nexus or something like that, and all I knew was it looked very different from my phone. I'm no salesman and wouldn't recommend it over another OS I hadn't used however.

I wasn't jumping with joy for ICS or JB either. They are both nice OS'. I don't have a problem with iOS 5 or 6 either, it works well too. Android just fits my needs better.

I prefer Android and its devices more for their versatility and for letting me do things that Apple restricts, for ex. customizing and rooting (which you call hacking henners). :D IMO you should be able to do whatever you want with a device bought from your money, and Android lets me do that, lets me make my phone truly how I want it, without any major complications. There is a whole world of possibilities out there with a rooted phone.

I also understand many people could give a flying rat's behind about all these things and prefer something which works and is simple. I don't have a problem with these people. One of my friends owns about 6 latest Apple products. I don't go to his house and question him about it. It's not my business what he does with his money.

But if someone asked for my opinion about a mobile OS, or there's a discussion about it somewhere, such as on a public forum, I would recommend Android. :)

CaptainRaiden

2nd August 2012, 13:55

fHkhp6BwnGo

I found this video of Google Now from Android 4.1 JB in action. Even though voice rec currently is far away from what the companies would have you believe, this is hands down the best in the business right now.

I tried most of these on my Galaxy S3's S-voice and Siri on a friend's iPhone 4S. Both of them obviously crap. They were nowhere near the accuracy and speed of Google Now. Surprisingly though S-voice faired better than Siri, getting a lot of them right.

pino

2nd August 2012, 15:18

PS: I'm glad this discussion has moved on from trying to justify the amount of money spent and why one is better than the other because I've been saying all along its about personal preference and its great we agree. :)

Same here :up:

BleAivano

2nd August 2012, 21:38

fHkhp6BwnGo (http://fHkhp6BwnGo)

I found this video of Google Now from Android 4.1 JB in action. Even though voice rec currently is far away from what the companies would have you believe, this is hands down the best in the business right now.

I tried most of these on my Galaxy S3's S-voice and Siri on a friend's iPhone 4S. Both of them obviously crap. They were nowhere near the accuracy and speed of Google Now. Surprisingly though S-voice faired better than Siri, getting a lot of them right.

So how is Samsung tocuhwisz in Android 4.* compared to on the S2? I dont a have a S2 myself but have used the
model occasionally and i have to say that i prefer the look and feel of HTC Sense (have only used v2.2.2).

Dave B

3rd August 2012, 08:54

Looks good! I read some Amazon reviews and they're all positive, but I'll wait for your more unbiased, hands-on review. No hurry, I've got ample time, and I'm gonna do a bit of my own research too. It's surprisingly packed for only about 70 pounds. It seems to be JUST the thing I was looking for. Cheap, runs Android ICS, lets my non-techy parents view photos from their camera, and keep in touch via Skype. They're always at home, so battery life is no issue either. Perfecto. Thanks Dave.
Well we couldn't resist so opened it early! Keep in mind these impressions are after only a day's use so I can't form any impression about battery life or stability.

The sound, which I said was pretty weedy on startup, is actually a lot better than I'd expected. It's not fantastic quality, but it does produce a tidy bit of volume good enough for listening to video clips without headphones. The screen is properly responsive, some of the earlier cheapos had awful resistive screens or rubbish capactitive, but this is fine.

The resolution is the only letdown, as expected, it's 800x480 pixels which is the same as many 3.5" phones. It's actually not as bad as you might think for reading averagely sized text, and it's got a nice tone for photos, but don't expect fine detail in pictures or the ability to ready tiny writing - although obviously it supports all the normal zoom methods. I haven't tried the HDMI out as it's a micro connector (my adaptor's shipping). The sole front-facing camera works, that's about all you can say. Pictures are acceptable in decent light, and certainly good enough for Skype purposes.

The OS fair zips along. The missus has installed some quite hefty apps and it copes well. She hammered it yesterday and the only glitch was that Dolphin Browser froze once, but then it used to do that occasionally on my Desire so I don't know if it's a fault with the app or the hardware - time will tell. 4GB of memory is divided into just under 1GB of pure internal storage, and just over 3GB on a virtual external card - but it's a doddle to transfer between them and most apps install to the SD card anyway. We popped in a spare 4GB microSD card (and contrary to one review I'd read it doesn't stick out) which she's busy filling with photos and music. I'll be staggered if the manufacturer supports any upgrade to Jellybean but I'm sure it won't be too hard for a reasonably tech-literate person to install once there's a stable release.

Wi-fi connected flawlessly and actually seems to have better stability than my old HTC. It charges quickly (the supplied charger is a bit iffy build quality but it's your standard 5v mini USB job) and appears at this stage to have decent if not spectacular battery life.

Is it fantastic? No. Is it a solidly built decent spec bit of kit? Certainly. Obviously a Nexus is going to be better quality, have better support and have more onboard memory, but I honestly can't see it being worth double the purchase price. Give it a few weeks and I'll let you know how it fares out in the real world :)

CaptainRaiden

3rd August 2012, 11:11

So how is Samsung tocuhwisz in Android 4.* compared to on the S2? I dont a have a S2 myself but have used the
model occasionally and i have to say that i prefer the look and feel of HTC Sense (have only used v2.2.2).

I also prefer the look of the sense UI on HTC phones, but as far as functionality goes, IMO touchwhiz is better. I say this because I tried the HTC One X before going for the Galaxy S3, and even for its impressive hardware, the sense UI seemed to bog ICS down a bit. Transitions and swipes were not as smooth as they are on the Galaxy S3. Also, video recording was a bit jittery, but that could be down completely to how HTC handles its camera app. I also find that the touchwhiz UI is less intrusive on the S3 than it was on the S2. People complained and probably Samsung listened, or maybe I just like Galaxy S3 way too much. :D

Coupled with a lot of extra features AND the most important one of them all, expandable memory, Galaxy S3 was a clear winner for me over HTC One X.

CaptainRaiden

3rd August 2012, 11:21

Well we couldn't resist so opened it early! Keep in mind these impressions are after only a day's use so I can't form any impression about battery life or stability.

The sound, which I said was pretty weedy on startup, is actually a lot better than I'd expected. It's not fantastic quality, but it does produce a tidy bit of volume good enough for listening to video clips without headphones. The screen is properly responsive, some of the earlier cheapos had awful resistive screens or rubbish capactitive, but this is fine.

The resolution is the only letdown, as expected, it's 800x480 pixels which is the same as many 3.5" phones. It's actually not as bad as you might think for reading averagely sized text, and it's got a nice tone for photos, but don't expect fine detail in pictures or the ability to ready tiny writing - although obviously it supports all the normal zoom methods. I haven't tried the HDMI out as it's a micro connector (my adaptor's shipping). The sole front-facing camera works, that's about all you can say. Pictures are acceptable in decent light, and certainly good enough for Skype purposes.

The OS fair zips along. The missus has installed some quite hefty apps and it copes well. She hammered it yesterday and the only glitch was that Dolphin Browser froze once, but then it used to do that occasionally on my Desire so I don't know if it's a fault with the app or the hardware - time will tell. 4GB of memory is divided into just under 1GB of pure internal storage, and just over 3GB on a virtual external card - but it's a doddle to transfer between them and most apps install to the SD card anyway. We popped in a spare 4GB microSD card (and contrary to one review I'd read it doesn't stick out) which she's busy filling with photos and music. I'll be staggered if the manufacturer supports any upgrade to Jellybean but I'm sure it won't be too hard for a reasonably tech-literate person to install once there's a stable release.

Wi-fi connected flawlessly and actually seems to have better stability than my old HTC. It charges quickly (the supplied charger is a bit iffy build quality but it's your standard 5v mini USB job) and appears at this stage to have decent if not spectacular battery life.

Is it fantastic? No. Is it a solidly built decent spec bit of kit? Certainly. Obviously a Nexus is going to be better quality, have better support and have more onboard memory, but I honestly can't see it being worth double the purchase price. Give it a few weeks and I'll let you know how it fares out in the real world :)

Those are great first impressions, Dave, and a very well written hands-on review I might add. I am still amazed that tablet packs so much for only 70 pounds. The only thing that bothers me though is probably the hardware, but then again, I forget I'm buying this for my parents, who could give two *bleeps* about hardware. Just for swiping through photos, using newspaper apps, basic apps and using Skype, I think 70 pounds is very reasonable.

The only reason I might even look at other more expensive tablets is if I wanted to give them some Google Maps GPS functionality as well. But they never go outside the city, and even if they do, they take a flight or a train, so that is again a moot point.

What should be interesting is how it handles a fully loaded microSD card, let's say bigger than 16 GB. Their holiday photos are never gonna get that far, but it's nice to have an option, especially if he would want me to load the tablet with any of his favorite old movies and music.

Have you tried Chrome on it yet? :D

Mark

3rd August 2012, 11:54

Can't we all agree that the likes of Siri and S-Voice etc are all completely useless and manufacturers should stop putting their efforts into something which is ultimately pointless

airshifter

3rd August 2012, 12:40

To each their own in this case then. For me, the widget resizing, maps and Chrome syncing are impressive and very handy features, especially the Chrome syncing helps out a lot for the line of work I am in. Chrome for ICS is also the fastest web browser I have used on any handheld device, and I have tried them all.

I'll have to try the Chrome. TBH I don't use the browser enough to justify much playing with it, as it works fine as it shipped. But being I like Chrome on the home PCs, I'll have to give it a shot.

As for the widgets I'm not sure if that was really an OS function or if they just released a lot of widgets you can resize when they released ICS updates. A few of my widgets would allow size changes when I had Gingerbread.

airshifter

3rd August 2012, 12:44

Can't we all agree that the likes of Siri and S-Voice etc are all completely useless and manufacturers should stop putting their efforts into something which is ultimately pointless

I can't at all agree with that. The Google voice recognition on my Droid works very well, and saves me a lot of time sending texts and making sticky notes. Though the integration to phone commands isn't as good using a different system, I use the voice input on a regular basis with the Google searches.

CaptainRaiden

3rd August 2012, 12:56

Can't we all agree that the likes of Siri and S-Voice etc are all completely useless and manufacturers should stop putting their efforts into something which is ultimately pointless

While they're far away from what is advertised by the companies, I believe it's a step in the right direction. Both Siri and S-voice are beta voice rec software anyway working on a learning AI model, so they'll only get better as they learn. I believe the ultimate goal is accurate audio transcription, which would save a lot of people a lot of time, but for that to happen, the AI would have to be at least on par with human intelligence, which I don't see happening anytime soon. But they should get close in the next decade or so.

From what I have seen of Google Now and its deep integration with Google's search engine, it seems at least a generation ahead of both Siri and S-Voice.

Dave B

6th August 2012, 16:45

Have you tried Chrome on it yet? :D
I've tried Chrome on my S3 and hated it, which is weird because I love the desktop version. It just strikes me as an unfinished project, and I've found Dolphin more functional and a bit quicker. Having synched bookmarks was nice, but it took seconds to export/import them from one browser to t'other.

Just another word on the cheap tablet: the stock keyboard is beyond awful. The missus has installed Go Keyboard and spent a worthwhile few minutes tweaking it (eg changing the height of the keys, and making the arrow keys permanently visible) and it's completely transformed the experience for the better.

Mark

7th August 2012, 13:17

We have no end of problems with Crome here, so many things users phone in and say "it's not working"... "Try using a different browser" ... "Ah, that's better!"

CaptainRaiden

8th August 2012, 11:02

I've tried Chrome on my S3 and hated it, which is weird because I love the desktop version. It just strikes me as an unfinished project.

Well, that's because it isn't a finished product. Chrome for ICS is still in beta. I'd guess once Google's ironed out most of the flaws, it should be quite good. Even in beta form it's the fastest browser on any mobile OS out there.

Just another word on the cheap tablet: the stock keyboard is beyond awful. The missus has installed Go Keyboard and spent a worthwhile few minutes tweaking it (eg changing the height of the keys, and making the arrow keys permanently visible) and it's completely transformed the experience for the better.

Good to know! Not so bad if the stock keyboard is awful. Plenty of better keyboards on the Google play store anyway. How has it been performing on a daily basis, usual apps, widgets etc? How's the battery life, what's the performance like when swiping through pictures on a microSD card?

CaptainRaiden

8th August 2012, 11:09

About Chrome, funnily enough I don't use it on the PC myself. I find Firefox to be way better for PC browsing and the way it handles add-ons, especially different time zones with Foxclocks in the add-on bar, very handy.

But on the phone, Chrome beats other browsers, on any OS, quite easily as far as pure speed goes. In a browser test done by a tech website, it was at least 30% faster in opening websites than its nearest competitor, which is a lot. It also handles flash heavy websites on the phone very well. Very handy to have a fast browser when away from Wi-fi and in a 3G zone.

race aficionado

9th August 2012, 00:39

Competition is a good thing.

Google's Android smartphone market share quadruples Apple's iOS - Aug. 8, 2012 (http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/08/technology/smartphone-market-share/?iphoneemail)

Robinho

9th August 2012, 05:41

I've just upgraded from an HTC desire HD which was on Android 2.3 (and was running along very nicely after a couple of years, to an HTC One X on 4.0 (I think) and have to say I'm incredibly happy so far. I far prefer the HTC sense interface to the Samsung, and other than the battery life being better on the S3 I could see no other upside, so went for the HTC, which I think is a nicer looking and feeling piece of kit. The screen is fantastic, the speed of loading is brilliant (as it should be). I haven't loaded all my apps on yet as we haven't got boradband connected at the new house yet and I don't want to cream my data allowance, but what I have used is an improvement on the previous phone. I have seen some reports of poor HTC phones, but they only seem to be the lower than top-spec models, I think my desire could comfortably go on for another year or 2 before things overtake it.

Other plus's, the camera is very nice, still and HD video, the music player is great (although I was quite happy with the sock player on the Desire too) and I got a pair of Beats audio headphones thrown in free also, so now I can look like a w****r whilst sat on the train and then walking onto work in my suit. don't really care cos it sounds brilliant and has consigned my Ipod to staying home sitting in the dock as I no longer need it on the move when i've got 32GB of space on the phone with a very decent player.

as for Android 4 (ICS) I love the improved way it handles my contacts, links, merging, editing etc, so my previously clunky contacts list has been edited back into one nice set, the basic architecture and interface is familiar but improved (things like setting your own photos as wallpaper for the multi front pages actually works properly now). my only bugbear is the speed of the 3g, but thats not a phone issue thats an Australia issue, when I can get a ful 3g connection in a not too busy area its really very quick, but that is not often enough, but seeing as the most I do with the phone is at home, and broadband will be installed next week I'll be back on wifi and all will be well. next is to have some fun and see what sort of compatibility I can get with my Android (Asus transformer prime) tablet, the common apps seem quite happy updating between (books etc) and I'm heading into dropbox for common music and photo storage to see how that works out for me, albeit I'm a cloud newbie