Mobile phones & tablets thread

[CaptainRaiden]

And once again, this lack of hardware choice is IMO something that gives Apple an advantage in software development. They only have to develop for a limited number of devices, where with Android or WP they have to develop for a lot of choices from a lot of companies.

I can't speak about WP, but I think as far as Android goes, it's an open source OS, and manufacturers develop their devices around it, and not the other way around. Google doesn't have much to do with that, they only provide the stock OS and license AFAIK. That's why Samsung, HTC, Motorola and Sony all have their own distinct UI overlaid on the stock Android OS for their devices. Some work well, some don't.

One advantage with Android is that if you don't want the useless UI or bloatware, you have the option to install the stock Android OS on your device, what is called "rooting", and it runs much faster, smoother and cleaner. If your device is lagging behind in the hardware department, there are apps that work only on rooted devices, which can overclock your processor to tide you over a bit longer.

Of course, for someone that doesn't want to tinker with these things, it doesn't matter which platform you choose anyway. But it's always nice to have that extra option.

[henners88]

There is the option to jailbreak an iPhone if you have the appropriate OS release too just to add. A friend of mine has his jail broken and has widgets, google search bar, Task killers etc on dedicated screens. Obviously with any software tweak it carries risk but I've never personally had the desire to do it or root any of the Android devices I owned previously. I'm yet to find something I can't do that I wish to do and enjoy the simple icon grid system iOS uses. For those who enjoy customisation though, there are options on most operating systems including iOS.

[BleAivano]

I can't speak about WP, but I think as far as Android goes, it's an open source OS, and manufacturers develop their devices around it, and not the other way around. Google doesn't have much to do with that, they only provide the stock OS and license AFAIK. That's why Samsung, HTC, Motorola and Sony all have their own distinct UI overlaid on the stock Android OS for their devices. Some work well, some don't.

One advantage with Android is that if you don't want the useless UI or bloatware, you have the option to install the stock Android OS on your device, what is called "rooting", and it runs much faster, smoother and cleaner. If your device is lagging behind in the hardware department, there are apps that work only on rooted devices, which can overclock your processor to tide you over a bit longer.

Of course, for someone that doesn't want to tinker with these things, it doesn't matter which platform you choose anyway. But it's always nice to have that extra option.

If i remember it correctly, Samsung will release new version of the S4 running stock android instead of Samsung's version of Android.

[henners88]

If i remember it correctly, Samsung will release new version of the S4 running stock android instead of Samsung's version of Android.
The HTC One also revealed the same plan, but sadly these models are not widely advertised.

[CaptainRaiden]

If i remember it correctly, Samsung will release new version of the S4 running stock android instead of Samsung's version of Android.


The HTC One also revealed the same plan, but sadly these models are not widely advertised.

Yep, and I think that's based largely on the success of the Nexus devices. Less hassle, less bloatware, no ugly UI, smoother, cleaner, faster. I won't be surprised if more manufacturers go that route with their devices in the future.

[henners88]

Yep, and I think that's based largely on the success of the Nexus devices. Less hassle, less bloatware, no ugly UI, smoother, cleaner, faster. I won't be surprised if more manufacturers go that route with their devices in the future.
Yeah I would imagine they will. There will always be those people who like the fancy widgets, animated features and manufacturer endorsed features though. They might slow the phone right down in comparison to stock Android, but there are those who are not bothered about the speed and performance just so long as it looks fancy. If I were to go back to Android in future I'd prefer the stock version as I just want it to be efficient and do the basic tasks effectively.

The problem at present with the two devices listed above that are being released with stock Android, is the fact they are not marketed well enough. I wouldn't mind betting the average consumer doesn't know they exist. Basing this on the UK as its my only reference, but they are not advertised on TV and most of the major retailers push the standard models and don't give the option. The only places I've seen them discussed is the techy sites that gadget minded enthusiasts visit. Its a shame IMO. If I wanted to go out tomorrow and buy the S4 on stock Android with a contract, I'd most likely have to buy the handset outright and then buy a sim only contract to go with it. It cuts down you bargaining power too as you can barter the prices of contracts down, but sim only versions are usually fixed. It would possibly be a more expensive way of owning the phone. I'm sure you can buy a standard S4 and convert it to stock, but that can affect your warranty and personally I'm not into the hassle of doing it.

Hopefully we'll see stock becoming more popular on flagship models in future. The question is, would Samsung and HTC prefer the wider audience to buy their custom interface though?

[CaptainRaiden]

The problem at present with the two devices listed above that are being released with stock Android, is the fact they are not marketed well enough. I wouldn't mind betting the average consumer doesn't know they exist. Basing this on the UK as its my only reference, but they are not advertised on TV and most of the major retailers push the standard models and don't give the option. The only places I've seen them discussed is the techy sites that gadget minded enthusiasts visit. Its a shame IMO.

I think a large portion of Android customers have always been the gadget minded enthusiasts you speak of. Besides, lack of advertisements is also one factor that helps them keep the handset cost down. This was especially true in the case of the Nexus 4. Almost next to no advertisements whatsoever, and they still sold out. But yeah, the one thing that always hurt Android flagships is lack of good advertising, which is exactly where Apple is ace.


If I wanted to go out tomorrow and buy the S4 on stock Android with a contract, I'd most likely have to buy the handset outright and then buy a sim only contract to go with it. It cuts down you bargaining power too as you can barter the prices of contracts down, but sim only versions are usually fixed.

I will let you in on a secret, although I'm sure you know this already. :D My ex told me the inner workings of the sales department at 3, and I'm sure the same works for Vodafone and Orange too. They already have a crazy markup on top of the set basic contract rate. If the customer buys it at the advertised rate, then a huge payday for them, but if not, they will easily reduce the handset cost or the monthly rental to an acceptable limit during the haggling as long as the customer thinks they are winning and getting a bargain, but as it reaches close to their acceptable set marker, they will simply refuse to go down any further, no matter how much you haggle. In fact, even if they give you the handset for free at a 25 euro monthly contract, they're still making loads of money off of you. Anything on top of that is a bonus for them. It's never a loss for them, always a win. The salesperson who sweet talks you into anything over the set rate then gets a bonus. The more you pay, the higher their bonus.

Mind you, the existing customer who gets haggling privileges has to have some prerequisites fulfilled. All their data is in the CRM module, and it depends on if you were on a higher contract and if you've been a good payer, not missing a single payment before. If the company thinks they've already made enough money off of you, they don't mind giving you a nice little discount.

Like I said, I'm sure you knew this already, but this is how these corporate SOBs operate. But at least you have the luxury of haggling in the US and UK. Most of the other places there's usually a monopoly, and they just charge absurd rates for similar contracts.


Hopefully we'll see stock becoming more popular on flagship models in future. The question is, would Samsung and HTC prefer the wider audience to buy their custom interface though?

I think if more customers buy and prefer the stock version, then it's less hassle for them. They don't have to bother with developing UIs anymore. Most probably the stock Android S4 and One are tests. And depending on their success, we might see further devices going the stock route in the future.

[henners88]

I think a large portion of Android customers have always been the gadget minded enthusiasts you speak of. Besides, lack of advertisements is also one factor that helps them keep the handset cost down. This was especially true in the case of the Nexus 4. Almost next to no advertisements whatsoever, and they still sold out. But yeah, the one thing that always hurt Android flagships is lack of good advertising, which is exactly where Apple is ace.
It might well be a large proportion but its certainly not the majority of consumers in the UK. You'll find most of the larger retailers push the sub £100 handsets here as they often offer the better contract deals too. Cheaper handset, more minutes, texts and data. The flagship handsets also sell well here and apparently the best in Europe. I know quite a few people who own top end Android devices but don't get anywhere near as involved with the software as you guys here. I don't know if I could agree enthusiasts take up a larger percentage or not. We can only really base this sort of thing on personal experience and it'll be different from person to person.

I can offer an explanation as to why the Nexus 4 sold out and so quickly. Again its a UK reference, and sold out in a day here. The reason being they initially only shipped 250,000 units. That is not a huge amount really. The demand grew once they sold out and delayed shipping on batch 2 meant they then reached a million sales by the second release. I agree it was impressive for a model that was badly advertised and gained momentum via viral advertising mainly. I think Nexus were as guilty as previous manufacturers when it came to hyping sales figures and marketing the fact they sold out. Still it was a great handset for a very cheap price.



I will let you in on a secret, although I'm sure you know this already. :D My ex told me the inner workings of the sales department at 3, and I'm sure the same works for Vodafone and Orange too. They already have a crazy markup on top of the set basic contract rate. If the customer buys it at the advertised rate, then a huge payday for them, but if not, they will easily reduce the handset cost or the monthly rental to an acceptable limit during the haggling as long as the customer thinks they are winning and getting a bargain, but as it reaches close to their acceptable set marker, they will simply refuse to go down any further, no matter how much you haggle. In fact, even if they give you the handset for free at a 25 euro monthly contract, they're still making loads of money off of you. Anything on top of that is a bonus for them. It's never a loss for them, always a win. The salesperson who sweet talks you into anything over the set rate then gets a bonus. The more you pay, the higher their bonus.

Mind you, the existing customer who gets haggling privileges has to have some prerequisites fulfilled. All their data is in the CRM module, and it depends on if you were on a higher contract and if you've been a good payer, not missing a single payment before. If the company thinks they've already made enough money off of you, they don't mind giving you a nice little discount.

Like I said, I'm sure you knew this already, but this is how these corporate SOBs operate. But at least you have the luxury of haggling in the US and UK. Most of the other places there's usually a monopoly, and they just charge absurd rates for similar contracts.

Yeah I was aware of that. A friend of mine was quite high up in finance at the Vodafone head-quarters in Banbury until a few years ago and he divulged many of the inner workings to me. I know when I negotiate a contract that there is a threshold they are willing to drop to and still make a profit. You have the luxury here of being able to tell salespeople you will try elsewhere and it usually forces them to 'see what they can do' lol. Also here the mobile companies have points systems to use if you remain a customer for your next upgrade etc. I always have the mindset where I decide what handset I want, the price I want to pay, and then I find several sales departments to haggle amongst. The closest to the price gets my money. You can upgrade here as you're aware through quite a few outlets and usually its cheaper to do that than upgrade directly through the carrier, in my case O2. I'm aware though I walk away with the price I want to pay, but know full well they have still made a profit. If no party is happy, everybody loses. :)

[Jag_Warrior]

On mobile devices, 99.9% of my concern is about performance and security. I don't care whether I have the newest device in my hand (my cellphone is over 10 years old) or whether I can root it, jailbreak it or watch the icons dance around the screen while they sing my name. If it's (intentionally or unintentionally) leaking my personal, financial and/or business data out to some kid in a basement in Russia or China, then to me, that's kind of a problem. But the mileage of others may vary. Some geniuses will post on their MyFace and SpaceBook pages when they're going to be out of town on vacation for two weeks - along with pictures of their house and even the address. IMO, stupid people do not deserve a break. But those who are innocently being exploited do deserve a break... and protection from these data mining thieves (FaceBook), and the ones who enable it (Google and any others). So here is yet another reason why I have no use for FaceBook or the Android OS:

Of particular note, Mobile Insight automatically flagged the *Facebook* application for *Android* because it leaked the device phone number. The first time you launch the Facebook application, even before logging in, your phone number will be sent over the Internet to Facebook servers. You do not need to provide your phone number, log in, initiate a specific action, or even need a Facebook account for this to happen.

We reached out to Facebook who investigated the issue and will provide a fix in their next Facebook for Android release. They stated they did not use or process the phone numbers and have deleted them from their servers. (http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/norton-mobile-insight-discovers-facebook-privacy-leak) /said with an entirely straight face/

Purely by accident, so says the minions of Marky Mark Suckerberg. Riiight. :rolleyes: And the check is in the mail, I don't know who ate the last slice of cherry pie and of course I'll love you in the morning.

[BleAivano]

@jag, the difference between Android and Ios is that on Android when you install an app via Google Play, it lets
you review what phone features the app will access so that users are made aware of it.

Regarding security leaks, I think all systems have security leaks but that on Android they are more widely known
since Android is open source and users can take precautionary action.

While on Ios you might have the same security leaks but users might not know about it and thus becomes more vulnerable.

[race aficionado]

To stir the pot - according to bbc

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23179522

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am thinking I am the only Blackberry Z10 guy on this board....lol....Feeling lonely...but secure...because it is SECURE.

[Mark]

My wife has smashed the screen of her 3GS, she's not happy! Having said that we have mobile phone insurance so hopefully they'll put something towards her getting a 4S or summat.

[pino]

4S? Why not 5 ?

[Mark]

4S? Why not 5 ?

She's not bothered about having the latest thing and the iPhone 5 isn't much better than the 4S, so no point paying the extra.
4S would be a big upgrade from a 3GS anyway.

[pino]

Wise Girl :up:

[Daniel]

My mum bought herself an iPhone recently. I blame my sister in law for this......

[pino]

My mum bought herself an iPhone recently. I blame my sister in law for this......

You should be glad to have such wise persons in your family 😎😜

[Daniel]

I am thinking I am the only Blackberry Z10 guy on this board....lol....Feeling lonely...but secure...because it is SECURE.


I'm taking the old Mac security method which is safety in lack of numbers, who wants to hack a small fanbase like Windows Phone anyway? :p

[Daniel]

You should be glad to have such wise persons in your family 

No.

[SGWilko]

I blame my sister in law for this......

I never thought I'd get over my wife, until I realised I could get up and go around......

[CaptainRaiden]

You should be glad to have such wise persons in your family í ½í¸Ží ½í¸œ

He's already depressed, pino dude, don't rub it in. :p

[CaptainRaiden]

Meanwhile Apple are taking the word "cheap" iPhone quite literally:

http://cdn0.mos.techradar.futurecdn.net///art/mobile_phones/iPhone/Budget_iPhone_Sonny_Dickerson-900-75.jpg

[Daniel]

Meanwhile Apple are taking the word "cheap" iPhone quite literally:

http://cdn0.mos.techradar.futurecdn.net///art/mobile_phones/iPhone/Budget_iPhone_Sonny_Dickerson-900-75.jpg

TBH my Ativ S has a backplate which looks and feels very cheap when it's off the phone, but when it's on the phone it looks and feels fantastic.

[Mark]

Indeed we'll have to see. There's little doubt the build quality won't be as good. But then it wouldn't be.

[Koz]

The huge screen doesn't deter you? I draw the line at 5 inches for a smartphone screen, really. But I guess it's okay as long as you're looking for a phablet.

With the amount of people I see carrying an iPad mini or Nexus, size can't be that big of an issue. Sure I'll probably look like a douchebag while making calls. If I can get a reasonable amount reading done on it and it fits in my jacket pocket and the battery lasts a day, I think I would be quite happy with it. Lack of Flash is a real bummer though.

[tfp]

Hmmmm decisions! I'm debating buying either an iphone 4(not the 4s) or a samsung galaxy s3 mini.
Ive heard good and bad things about both phones so can anyone on here help?
Can't hurt to have a second opinion from folk who know more!

[Koz]

Hmmmm decisions! I'm debating buying either an iphone 4(not the 4s) or a samsung galaxy s3 mini.
Ive heard good and bad things about both phones so can anyone on here help?
Can't hurt to have a second opinion from folk who know more!

I would get neither. A Nexus 4 should be the same price as them, and it is by far superior.

[Mark]

The S3. No point getting the iPhone 4; too old.

[Koz]

The S3. No point getting the iPhone 4; too old.

I'd rather have a Galaxy S2 than an S3 mini.

[tfp]

I would get neither. A Nexus 4 should be the same price as them, and it is by far superior.

I haven't looked into the nexus 4, but I've heard good things so ill do some research. Thanks!


The S3. No point getting the iPhone 4; too old.

thats what I thought, but my 3GS is even older ;-) I'm not interested in any of the newest top spec stuff (iPhone 5 or the gs4), out of my price range unfortunately, and they're too big for me anyway!
It's the speed of my current phone that puts me off, a faster processor is what I'd ideally like...

[tfp]

I'd rather have a Galaxy S2 than an S3 mini.

I heard that aswel, the s3 mini is basically the same as the normal s2?

[Koz]

I haven't looked into the nexus 4, but I've heard good things so ill do some research. Thanks!

The only bad thing I have ever heard about the Nexus 4 is that people keep dropping it all the time. A lot of them in the loo. :p
Google doesn't offer it everywhere does. No advertising either.

Being in the UK, I think you should be able to access Google's playstore. Have a look at the prices there.
Nexus 4 - Google (http://www.google.co.uk/nexus/4/)

If you are on a budget this phone is second to none. I'd say it'on par with an S3. Slightly better than S4 mini.


I heard that aswel, the s3 mini is basically the same as the normal s2?
Actually it is lower spec'd than the S2 in every department. Slower processor. The front camera is pathetic. The only thing going for it is that it looks like an S3.

[tfp]

The only bad thing I have ever heard about the Nexus 4 is that people keep dropping it all the time. A lot of them in the loo. :p
Google doesn't offer it everywhere does. No advertising either.

Being in the UK, I think you should be able to access Google's playstore. Have a look at the prices there.
Nexus 4 - Google (http://www.google.co.uk/nexus/4/)

If you are on a budget this phone is second to none. I'd say it'on par with an S3. Slightly better than S4 mini.


Actually it is lower spec'd than the S2 in every department. Slower processor. The front camera is pathetic. The only thing going for it is that it looks like an S3.

I had a look at the nexus 4 last night. Out of my price range unfortunately :(

i also looked up specs of the galaxy s3 mini and the s2, like you say, the figures are pretty shocking, considering the gs3 minis name is labelled to sound newer than the s2, it really should be better than it is.
Hey at least it's not only apple who are the con men here ;)

but thanks for that, I must now reconsider the gs3 mini....

[race aficionado]

Just don't buy an iPhone.
We who own them are screwed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23317338

[Dave B]

Just don't buy an iPhone.
We who own them are screwed.

BBC News - Apple investigates electrocution-by-iPhone report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23317338)

At a guess I'd blame a cheap knock-off charger. I've ordered Chinese electronics from eBay and some of the stuff I've seen is shocking - literally occasionally. If mains voltage found its way into a phone with an aluminium body, that's asking for trouble.

[Jag_Warrior]

Just don't buy an iPhone.
We who own them are screwed.

BBC News - Apple investigates electrocution-by-iPhone report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23317338)


A report on Bloomberg said that she was either in the tub or had her feet in water. I don't know if that's true, but if it is... safe to say that she may get nominated for a Darwin Award this year.

[ioan]

Anyone tried the Oppo Find5?

[apvkt]

Hi everybody,
I am a new user to this forum. Actually I am in the plan to buy a new tablet. Nowadays it is moving very fast..But I can't have a clear idea..Can anyone tel me which one would be best?? Reply me soon.

[Koz]

I had a look at the nexus 4 last night. Out of my price range unfortunately :(

i also looked up specs of the galaxy s3 mini and the s2, like you say, the figures are pretty shocking, considering the gs3 minis name is labelled to sound newer than the s2, it really should be better than it is.
Hey at least it's not only apple who are the con men here ;)

but thanks for that, I must now reconsider the gs3 mini....

Out of curiocity, how much is the Nexus 4 going for (from google)?
I see a USD $299 price, and Clove has the S3 mini going for 225 GBP? So it should be cheaper??

[Koz]

Hi everybody,
I am a new user to this forum. Actually I am in the plan to buy a new tablet. Nowadays it is moving very fast..But I can't have a clear idea..Can anyone tel me which one would be best?? Reply me soon.

Samsung ATIV Q.

[tfp]

Out of curiocity, how much is the Nexus 4 going for (from google)?
I see a USD $299 price, and Clove has the S3 mini going for 225 GBP? So it should be cheaper??

The nexus 4 seems to be going for around the 200gbp mark but by the looks of things they seem to be manufacturer refurbished models.

Has anyone ever used the 3 network? Is it any good?

[Koz]

The nexus 4 seems to be going for around the 200gbp mark but by the looks of things they seem to be manufacturer refurbished models.


The price seems right. Why do you think they are refurbished?
Google's price has always been very low to undercut competition, they have almost no margins compared to others.

[apvkt]

Hi,
I want to replace my old mobile..What are the latest mobiles with Android application?? Is it safe to buy through online shoppping website??

[Mark]

Is it safe to buy through online shoppping website??

No.

[Valve Bounce]

Hi everybody,
I am a new user to this forum. Actually I am in the plan to buy a new tablet. Nowadays it is moving very fast..But I can't have a clear idea..Can anyone tel me which one would be best?? Reply me soon.

Thought I'd be clever and went to Costco and bought the Asus tablet with Windows RT. Great tablet, but Microsoft RT is shyte. Microsoft, in their supreme wisdom decided to block installation of Adobe Flash Player. I went online and actually found some great guy who offered a procedure to install the Flash Player on Windows RT. To my dismay the Microsoft upgrade (automatic blocked that procedure by elimination the program incompatibility option. I was so furious, that I took the tablet back to Costco to get a refund, told them exactly why, then walked around to the computer counter and bought the Asus Android tablet which allows Adobe Flash Player, and cost me $200 less.

I can only say thank God when I bought my Toshiba Ultrabok it was loaded with Windows 7.
I case anyone asks why I bought the tablet when I had an Ultrabook with i7 core and solid state drive, it was because my wife wanted the tablet. Yeah! the Ultrabook also belongs to her, but the explanation is very complicated, and I can only discuss it via private.

[Mark]

Windows RT has turned out to be a big fail for Microsoft. Bringing out a version of Windows where you can't install anything wasn't particularly wise. But then their entire OS / tablet strategy has pretty much crashed and burned.

[Storm]

I finally bit the bullet and entered the 21st century and bought a 'smartphone'. I was perfectly happy with my tiny Sony Ericsson Walkman series phone which I lost last month. Now there is no choice in the market apart from touch/smart phones and I did not want to spend a ton of money on something which I only use to make calls/text (receive..never send). What I did want was a low end substitute for my camera and something to grab quick decent quality videos with. So I now own a Nokia Lumia Windows phone.

I would say it suits my purposes for now. I still get irritated by it's unwieldy size which won't fit easily in my back pocket like my old one :(

[Valve Bounce]

Windows RT has turned out to be a big fail for Microsoft. Bringing out a version of Windows where you can't install anything wasn't particularly wise. But then their entire OS / tablet strategy has pretty much crashed and burned.

Windows RT would not play youtube for me. I am now listening to Simply Red on my new Android tablet

[Dave B]

Windows RT would not play youtube for me. I am now listening to Simply Red on my new Android tablet
Some might say that by preventing you from hearing Mick Hucknall, Microsoft were doing you a massive favour :p

I've not used a Windows tablet beyond a bit of tinkering in a shop, but I've been using the Beta of Windows 8.1 (the one which is supposed to address the failings of W8 on the desktop) and it's still bloody awful.

[BleAivano]

I've been using win8 on a laptop for a couple of weeks and I don''t think it as bad as the claims are. You get used to it quite quickly.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So......Again...am I the only Blackberry guy on the board? Feeling lonely, except I do know people who own z10's and q10's...but not on this board. Is the world so hung up on toys, apps and games that they ignore the reality of WHY you own a phone? To just communicate? At its core, this phone does that really well, plus takes damn nice pictures as well. I read post after post about this and that, and I experience no glitches really, the phone is fast, and reliable and Blackberry is renowned for security. All you guys keep talking about the faults of Android devices and meanwhile they keep selling like crazy. Am I nuts? Am I missing something? Hell, I would consider an Apple if I thought it was a better buy...but I don't think it isn't....

[Dave B]

I've been using win8 on a laptop for a couple of weeks and I don''t think it as bad as the claims are. You get used to it quite quickly.
Personally I think it's worse than the claims are. This may sound like the ratings of a luddite who doesn't like change, but I've been using Windows since Bruce Forsythe was in short trousers, and the interface just gets in the way. 8.1 addresses the absolute worse of this but also introduces its own stupid annoyances.

For example programmes and apps are now catagorised (Games, Photo, Shopping etc) but there's no way of changing the defaults, so on my PC I've got Amazon and Cut the Rope under "other", with no way of moving them. The "Metro" interface is easier to avoid, but it's still an unholy mess with scant customisation, poor switching between that and desktop. If I'd wanted a Fisher Price toy I'd have bought a Mac!

I've had wizards hang on me with no way of closing them, and operations fail with no Retry option. The ribbon view is a barrier to productivity as I can't have my most used actions visible in one place, and it refuses point blank to play ball with my soon-to-be-renamed SkyDrive.

I've got used to it, that's for sure, but it's definately a backwards step from Windows 7.

[Dave B]

Is the world so hung up on toys, apps and games that they ignore the reality of WHY you own a phone? To just communicate? At its core, this phone does that really well, plus takes damn nice pictures as well..

"To just communicate"? That's SOOOOOO 2009 :p

I'm only partially joking. I use my phone to do at least half of my shopping, as a price comparison tool when I'm in a bricks-and-mortar retailer, to capture edit and share HD video, to store and read hundreds of books and manuals, to play games on, to facilitate my banking, as a 2nd screen for stats such as F1 live timing, as a calendar, as a home CCTV system, as a multimedia remote control, as an MP3 player in the car, as a SatNav, to store all my loyalty card details (I'm not very loyal so I have loads!), as a notepad, and to manage my cloud storage. And yes: occasionally to communicate!

Personally (I emphasise that word) I chose Android because Blackberry didn't have the breadth of apps I want, and Apple don't make a device with a screen size I'd consider remotely useful. If that changes in the future I'm open to persuasion.

[BleAivano]

Personally I think it's worse than the claims are. This may sound like the ratings of a luddite who doesn't like change, but I've been using Windows since Bruce Forsythe was in short trousers, and the interface just gets in the way. 8.1 addresses the absolute worse of this but also introduces its own stupid annoyances.

For example programmes and apps are now catagorised (Games, Photo, Shopping etc) but there's no way of changing the defaults, so on my PC I've got Amazon and Cut the Rope under "other", with no way of moving them. The "Metro" interface is easier to avoid, but it's still an unholy mess with scant customisation, poor switching between that and desktop. If I'd wanted a Fisher Price toy I'd have bought a Mac!

I've had wizards hang on me with no way of closing them, and operations fail with no Retry option. The ribbon view is a barrier to productivity as I can't have my most used actions visible in one place, and it refuses point blank to play ball with my soon-to-be-renamed SkyDrive.

I've got used to it, that's for sure, but it's definately a backwards step from Windows 7.

Sure it is, I've set up Winamp as the default music player, Firefox as the default web browser.

I agree though that Win 7 is better but I think that win8 probably suits tocuh screen devices better.
And I also think that MS will implement a classic mode with desktop view as default with a proper start menu.

However I do like the idea with win8 that the same OS is used on phones, tablets and computers.

[Mark]

However I do like the idea with win8 that the same OS is used on phones, tablets and computers.

It's a fine idea in principle however desktop PC's and tablets require different interfaces as they are used in completely different ways.

[BleAivano]

It's a fine idea in principle however desktop PC's and tablets require different interfaces as they are used in completely different ways.

I agree that is why there should be an option or a feature to decide which view that should be the default,
the old classic windows desktop/start menu view or the new metro interface.

if you have a surface pro you probably would like to be able to Swich between the differnt views depending on how and
when you are using it.If you use it handheld, then perhaps you want use the metro interface which i guess works with a
tocuh screen butthen if you connect a laptop and mose then a classic view would be preferred.

It really shouldn't hard to implement such feature but it seems that MS are ot interested.

[Dave B]

Sure it is, I've set up Winamp as the default music player, Firefox as the default web browser.

You misunderstand. Obviously you can set default programmes - it's not iOS! :p

I meant that there's an option to group apps/programmes by type on whatever we're calling the tiled interface this week. There are catagories such as Games, Tools, Shopping. As an example, my "Shopping" catagory consists solely of Store at the moment, yet Amazon appears under "Other". Can I change this? Not without faffing around with the registry, which no ordinary end user should ever be exposed to. It's a trivial gripe, but it typifies how ill-thought out and unfinished 8.1 appears to be.

[donKey jote]

If I'd wanted a Fisher Price toy I'd have bought a Mac!


:laugh: :andrea:

[BleAivano]

You misunderstand. Obviously you can set default programmes - it's not iOS! :p

I meant that there's an option to group apps/programmes by type on whatever we're calling the tiled interface this week. There are catagories such as Games, Tools, Shopping. As an example, my "Shopping" catagory consists solely of Store at the moment, yet Amazon appears under "Other". Can I change this? Not without faffing around with the registry, which no ordinary end user should ever be exposed to. It's a trivial gripe, but it typifies how ill-thought out and unfinished 8.1 appears to be.

Right yes I did misunderstood you.

You mean something like this?:
Windows 8 How To: 10. Customize Metro UI (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/zxue/archive/2012/03/07/win8-howto-10-customize-metro-ui-app-tiles-and-groups.aspx)
How To Resize, Group & Manage App Tiles In Windows 8 Start Screen (http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/how-to-resize-group-manage-app-tiles-in-windows-8-start-screen/)
windows 8 - How do you group Start Menu tiles into categories with headers? - Super User (http://superuser.com/questions/495209/how-do-you-group-start-menu-tiles-into-categories-with-headers)

[Dave B]

Sort of but no. When I'm back at a my pc I'll post some screenshots. I don't want to get too hung up on this one matter though, it's just one trivial example among dozens of how the interface is broken, if someone who has used all manner of operating systems over 3 decades can't figure it out.

[Jag_Warrior]

Sounds like they should have called it Windows Zune... instead of Windows 8.

[Koz]

However I do like the idea with win8 that the same OS is used on phones, tablets and computers.

The operating systems (Win8 and RT) are similar, but not the same. Lacking the ability to run the same programs on "variants" of Windows means the only thing they really share is the user interface.

[BleAivano]

The operating systems (Win8 and RT) are similar, but not the same. Lacking the ability to run the same programs on "variants" of Windows means the only thing they really share is the user interface.

Surface pro is the same windows 8 as regular computers and even if the RT only shares the user interface
its still a commonality thing. You know where to find things, you know how/where to change settings and etc.
So even if they are different "Under the hood" they still have an advantage.

Its sort of like comparing win95 with windows 7, their interface looks pretty much he same (win 7 is fancier looking though)
but they're completely different operating systems.

[Jag_Warrior]

More changes ahead on the mobile landscape...



BlackBerry Mulls Selling Itself as Demand for Phones Ebbs (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-12/blackberry-forms-board-committee-to-explore-options.html)

BlackBerry Ltd. (BBRY) (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/BBRY:US) said it’s considering putting itself up for sale, the strongest indication yet that the smartphone maker won’t remain independent as competition erodes sales and hammers its stock price.

A special board committee will consider ways to enhance BlackBerry’s value and scale, including joint ventures, partnerships or a sale of the company, according to a statement today. JPMorgan Chase & Co. will serve as its financial adviser. BlackBerry shares (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/BBRY:US) gained as much as 9.1 percent in New York.

The announcement builds on a move last year when BlackBerry hired JPMorgan and RBC Capital Markets to advise the company on strategic alternatives. At the time, Chief Executive Officer Thorsten Heins said a sale wasn’t the “main direction” he was considering. Prospects have worsened since then, with the new BlackBerry 10 -- the linchpin of a turnaround strategy -- meeting scant demand.

[Dave B]

Sort of but no. When I'm back at a my pc I'll post some screenshots. I don't want to get too hung up on this one matter though, it's just one trivial example among dozens of how the interface is broken, if someone who has used all manner of operating systems over 3 decades can't figure it out.

Righty ho, I'm back. Have a look here: http://sdrv.ms/13y6gi7

I would like to move the Amazon app into the Shopping category, Cut The Rope into Games, Dropbox into Photo, and so on. There is simply no option to do so - they insist on being lumped into "Other".

Like I say, it's really not a huge problem in itself, but it's indicative of the unfinished nature of the interface. :)

[555-04Q2]

Anyone here got the new BlackBerry Z10 or Q10? Need some feedback on if they any good at all :)

Not interested in the iPhone or Samsung.

[Jag_Warrior]

I think Mark in Oshawa said he owned some sort of BlackBerry phone.

Oh, wait! I just got off the phone with Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg (we do conference calls on weekends when we're not busy). Both said they loved them and you should buy 5 of each! And soon! Please!

Jokes aside, I refused a Blackberry as a (free) company phone back when they were still popular (2006 or so). I hated them. I felt about them the way that some here feel about iPhones now. But now that the pop factor has worn off (and the term "Crackberry" has gone into the history books), if I was looking at a smart phone right now, I'd certainly give the Z10 a very hard look - after the iPhone and just before the Windows phone... and I would never even look at an Android device. With more apps, I think the Z10 would be an excellent and secure smart phone to have. I kind of like them now. I've seen and heard some bad things about build quality and longevity, but you never know how friends and acquaintances treat electronic devices.

[555-04Q2]

I think Mark in Oshawa said he owned some sort of BlackBerry phone.

Oh, wait! I just got off the phone with Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg (we do conference calls on weekends when we're not busy). Both said they loved them and you should buy 5 of each! And soon! Please!

Jokes aside, I refused a Blackberry as a (free) company phone back when they were still popular (2006 or so). I hated them. I felt about them the way that some here feel about iPhones now. But now that the pop factor has worn off (and the term "Crackberry" has gone into the history books), if I was looking at a smart phone right now, I'd certainly give the Z10 a very hard look - after the iPhone and just before the Windows phone... and I would never even look at an Android device. With more apps, I think the Z10 would be an excellent and secure smart phone to have. I kind of like them now. I've seen and heard some bad things about build quality and longevity, but you never know how friends and acquaintances treat electronic devices.

Hehehe thanks Jag :up:

I also heard "bad things" about the new Z10 and Q10 models, but everyone I have spoken to who owns them say they are brilliant, just maybe battery life could be better.

Z10 for me then :)

[SGWilko]

The Blackberry email/calendar/notes/contacts business functionality is still one of - if not the - most secure forms of encryption. It is however, still really business orientated. While the likes of Apple and Android have come in and stolen a march on Blackberry, they are not as secure.

For me, if I did not have to pay for a Blackberry bolt on, and could get the service as part of an AYCE data package, I'd deploy Q/Z10's in the office immediately and run BES10 to manage them. As it stands however, with cost calling the shots, it's going to be IOS or Android and activesync on an all inclusive mobile data plan.

Shame, because the Blackberry Balance is a really nice feature.

[tfp]

This is a question for all the apple people (if there are still any left :p )

Is it possible to plug a new iphone into your computer without passing all of the old apps and stuff over, but still passing the music over?

the reason I ask is I've downloaded lots of apps that I very rarely use, and I want keep all the old stuff on the old phone.

At the same time I still want to have all my songs synced to my newer iphone (all 43 of them ;) ) but keep pictures etc on my old phone, so it doesn't use up all the storage on my new phone.

Is it possible to do this?

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you're asking. But you can manually (and selectively) choose what you sync to a new or old iOS device.

[tfp]

I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you're asking. But you can manually (and selectively) choose what you sync to a new or old iOS device.

I bought a friends iPhone 4S from him (to replace my aging 3GS) but I'd like to plug my new phone into iTunes on my computer and transfer all the songs, but none of the apps or pictures etc. just the music :)

im worried that if I plug it in, it will automatically transfer everything over, and that's what I don't want.

Thats what I get for filling my old iPhone 3GS with loads of rubbish!

[Mark]

BBC News - Microsoft to buy Nokia's mobile phone unit (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23940171)

Microsoft is to buy Nokia in a move that everyone saw coming!

[janneppi]

Nokia pretty much follows Ericsson's route by getting rid of hand held devices and focusing on network business. Only ones surprised were the people short selling Nokia stock. :D

[Jag_Warrior]

So Microsoft bought a struggling company for $7 billion and got a new CEO for itself thrown in for free. What a bahgin! :D

[Mark]

So Microsoft bought a struggling company for $7 billion and got a new CEO for itself thrown in for free. What a bahgin! :D

And sounds like a familiar story to me ;)

[veeten]

KitKat... it's not just a candy bar, it's also the next Android release. :D BBC News - Android KitKat unveiled in Google surprise move (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23926938)

[BleAivano]

KitKat... it's not just a candy bar, it's also the next Android release. :D BBC News - Android KitKat unveiled in Google surprise move (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23926938)

Cool names is one of many reasons that I prefer Android over ios.

I also wonder what the version after KitKat will be called? Liquorice?

[Jag_Warrior]

Malware? :D

[Malbec]

I also wonder what the version after KitKat will be called?

Apparently Google is paying Nestle licencing fees over KitKat which raises a whole new world of possibilities. Next we might have other companies paying Google to have the next OS named after their product. Android Nike anyone?

[Mark]

I've heard they are going to be sponsored by supermarkets who want to promote their fresh produce, so we can expect to see Android Apple and Android Blackberry in the near future.

[odykas]

Somebody fire those marketeers.

[BleAivano]

I've heard they are going to be sponsored by supermarkets who want to promote their fresh produce, so we can expect to see Android Apple and Android Blackberry in the near future.

no no no, Android Lime then Android Mango

[race aficionado]

Calling Dick Tracy!
I'm of the generation that saw the cartoon and loved that watch. I will wait for the iWatch :dozey:

What they're saying about Samsung's Galaxy Gear smartwatch - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/04/tech/mobile/samsung-galaxy-gear-reaction/index.html)

[Mark]

iPhone 5S faster again but still more of the same. Yawn
iPhone 5C just the iPhone 5 with a plastic case would be fine if it was cheap but far from it still really expensive.

More of the same. No innovation :(

[donKey jote]

bet the NSA are happy with the new iFingerprint technology :andrea:

[BleAivano]

iPhone 5S faster again but still more of the same. Yawn
iPhone 5C just the iPhone 5 with a plastic case would be fine if it was cheap but far from it still really expensive.

More of the same. No innovation :(


I think for all developers there is obviously a limit on how much new stuff there is to invent in such a short time.
A big innovation for Apple and also HTC one would be to actually allow the phone owners to be able
to do such a basic thing as change the battery. I don't know why HTC was so stupid that they took away
one of the most basic feature of a mobile phone. Although the newest generation of Smartphones
have pretty descent battery capacity there are many situation where an extra battery would be useful.

Sure there are battery powered chargers but they are as good as an extra proper phone battery.

From what i've heard with the HTC1, if the phone breakdown it isn't even possible to repair it
due that the way it has been assembled. Obviously if it is the battery it would be incredibly stupid
to throw away a fully functioning phone just because there is a problem with the battery and
you because of the fact that the battery is non-changeable.

[SGWilko]

A new iPhone, with 64bit architecture, that's good. Fingerprint technology will be good if it is robust and reliable enough. Price tag is predictably high.

The 5c - not sure where this will sit in the market - it is Apples budget phone, but is far from budget - bit confusing that!

[SGWilko]

iPhone 5C just the iPhone 5 with a plastic case would be fine if it was cheap but far from it still really expensive.



Is the 5c as high specced at the 5s though? Fingerprint and 64bit?

[Mark]

The 5c - not sure where this will sit in the market - it is Apples budget phone, but is far from budget - bit confusing that!

I know that they didn't want to price it too low as it would end up taking sales away from the 5S. But as you say the 5C isn't cheap by any means, and yet by having one your are making a statement of being budget concious!

[Mark]

Is the 5c as high specced at the 5s though? Fingerprint and 64bit?

No it isn't. The 5C is the same as the old iPhone 5 with a difference case.

[SGWilko]

Is the 5c as high specced at the 5s though? Fingerprint and 64bit?

No it isn't. The 5C is the same as the old iPhone 5 with a difference case.

With that price tag? Hoodwinked or what!!!!

[SGWilko]

The 5c - not sure where this will sit in the market - it is Apples budget phone, but is far from budget - bit confusing that!

I know that they didn't want to price it too low as it would end up taking sales away from the 5S. But as you say the 5C isn't cheap by any means, and yet by having one your are making a statement of being budget concious!

That's as hairbrained as buying a BMW 1 series for the same reason! ;)

[Mark]

With that price tag? Hoodwinked or what!!!!


Yeah, the 5C has the same price you would have expected the iPhone 5 to now be selling at if it were still on sale.

[Daniel]

No innovation, just more of the same, Apple are losing marketshare to Android and even Windows Phone is gaining traction also :)

64bit, great! So now we can have more than 4gb of memory addresses in a phone, that's useful! NOT!

The 5c is a joke for the reasons people have already outlined.

People are going to blame Jobs carking it for Apple's lack of creativity, but they were never all that creative, having Jobs around would have given people the impression that the recent mediocre launch was something special which it isn't.

Apple shares dropped 8% on this news, Nokia's have gone up 10% because of Apple's poor showing.

No doubt the 5s will probably break records in its first week like every iPhone model does. But Apple is on a downward slide

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... share.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2387473/Apple-loses-ground-Android-3pc-drop-market-share.html)

Nokia have flooded the market with loads of different WP8 Lumia's and even I can't keep track of them all now. WP is up to to almost 10% marketshare in the UK, something to think about :)

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... -in-the-uk (http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2291979/windows-phone-hits-record-92-percent-market-share-in-the-uk)

[Daniel]

[quote="Dave B":uzlgq7t6]Sort of but no. When I'm back at a my pc I'll post some screenshots. I don't want to get too hung up on this one matter though, it's just one trivial example among dozens of how the interface is broken, if someone who has used all manner of operating systems over 3 decades can't figure it out.

Righty ho, I'm back. Have a look here: http://sdrv.ms/13y6gi7

I would like to move the Amazon app into the Shopping category, Cut The Rope into Games, Dropbox into Photo, and so on. There is simply no option to do so - they insist on being lumped into "Other".

Like I say, it's really not a huge problem in itself, but it's indicative of the unfinished nature of the interface. :)[/quote:uzlgq7t6]

Whilst I agree you should be able to move stuff around, and if you're using that on a tablet, it would be very very advantageous, why not just press the start button, type in amaz and then enter, job done? Actually finding an icon and clicking on it is so last century ;)

I don't tend to use many Metro (or whatever they're called these days) apps, but I just installed amazon, pressed the start button, types in amaz and pressed enter and the amazon app launched. Now obviously if you're using a tablet then being able to move apps around would be somewhat helpful.

[Mark]

Having seen the iPhone 5S launch I'm thinking my 4S is showing it's age. So was thinking of an upgrade sometime.

However the 5S isn't that impressive but the Galaxy S4 is. Although I'm probably waiting for the S5, when's that likely to be out.

I'm interested in what can you can and can't do with the Samsung and Android compared to iPhone. I like the idea of 64gb of removable storage and a removable battery (my 4S battery is well past it's best). Can you for example mount the file system of Android phones on Windows via wifi?

How smooth is the user experience compared o iOS?

[Dave B]

I'm interested in what can you can and can't do with the Samsung and Android compared to iPhone. I like the idea of 64gb of removable storage and a removable battery (my 4S battery is well past it's best). Can you for example mount the file system of Android phones on Windows via wifi?

How smooth is the user experience compared o iOS?

I use an app called SwiFTP on my S3 which, as you might expect, brings up the entire file system as an FTP location which you can drag/drop to/from.

Regarding the UI, I always maintain that out of the box an iPhone is the better consumer product. It has a decent browser, decent keyboard, decent... well you get the picture.

The stock utilities that came with my Samsung were, in the main, pretty awful, but that's where Android's flexibility comes into its own. You can install all manner of 3rd party replacements but unlike iOS you can specify default apps and Androids "intents" system still lets them work together.

Android rewards a bit of patience and effort, and I can fully understand why it's not for everyone. Many consumers simply want a device that "just works", to use the marketing. To someone such as yourself who is computer literate and grasps concepts swiftly, I suspect that you'll prefer Android to iOS, but it's a personal choice so as ever try to play with as many handsets as possible and make your decision from there. :)

[Daniel]

Having seen the iPhone 5S launch I'm thinking my 4S is showing it's age. So was thinking of an upgrade sometime.

However the 5S isn't that impressive but the Galaxy S4 is. Although I'm probably waiting for the S5, when's that likely to be out.

I'm interested in what can you can and can't do with the Samsung and Android compared to iPhone. I like the idea of 64gb of removable storage and a removable battery (my 4S battery is well past it's best). Can you for example mount the file system of Android phones on Windows via wifi?

How smooth is the user experience compared o iOS?

Predictable, but have you considered a Windoze phone?

Depending on what you actually want, you can get a rather nice phone for a lot less than you'll pay for a 5s on contract :)

http://www.buymobiles.net/mobile-phones ... beb620fa68 (http://www.buymobiles.net/mobile-phones/nokia/nokia-lumia-925/o2/22-o2-300-24mths-internet/15142082?adnetwork=awin&utm_source=awp&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=27684&awc=3202_1379357717_22fd739d1f013b57712609beb620fa 68)

WP8 is buttery smooth :) No removable battery mind you........ Then again WP is good in terms of battery life. Windows Phone now accounts for 10% of sales in the UK nowadays ;)

[Mark]

There no point in buying windows. It's between iOS and Android. Changing ecosystems is a big deal and you want to be going to one which is well supported. That might be Windows one day but not at the moment.

[Daniel]

There no point in buying windows. It's between iOS and Android. Changing ecosystems is a big deal and you want to be going to one which is well supported. That might be Windows one day but not at the moment.

What do you need that Windows PHONE doesn't offer?

[BleAivano]

Having seen the iPhone 5S launch I'm thinking my 4S is showing it's age. So was thinking of an upgrade sometime.

However the 5S isn't that impressive but the Galaxy S4 is. Although I'm probably waiting for the S5, when's that likely to be out.

I'm interested in what can you can and can't do with the Samsung and Android compared to iPhone. I like the idea of 64gb of removable storage and a removable battery (my 4S battery is well past it's best). Can you for example mount the file system of Android phones on Windows via wifi?

How smooth is the user experience compared o iOS?

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=what+can+samsu ... ne+can%27t (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=what+can+samsung+galaxy+s4+do+that+iphone+can%2 7t) :p :D
http://www.businessinsider.com/exclusiv ... 013-5?op=1 (http://www.businessinsider.com/exclusive-samsung-galaxy-s4-features-2013-5?op=1)
http://news.cnet.com/8301-33620_3-57601 ... -iphone-5/ (http://news.cnet.com/8301-33620_3-57601616-278/how-the-samsung-galaxy-s4-tempted-me-from-the-iphone-5/)

There are more articles but they more or less all say the same 10 things.

Like Dave said, android in general are usually very allowing when it comes customization.
Like my 3 year old HTC Desire, which have the possibility to set 10 different alarm clock times
and each can be activated independently from each other and each can customized further
when it comes what days the alarms should be used on. Most likely all new phones have this though
but I thought it could be worth mentioning,

Also for android phones you can install non-authorized/3rd party apps (can be toggled on/off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3uM_MJvUo)) while
Iphone only will install the apps that Apple have approved,
Simply put you get the control over your own phone, for Iphone Apple decides for you want you are not supposed to have.
The default mode is to not allow installation of such apps so no need to bother with it
if you don't want to use it.

Android phones also can be used as a regular diskdrive with windows explorer (http://multimedia-hive.com/2013/05/27/3-ways-to-transfer-media-files-music-or-video-to-samsung-galaxy-s4/)
which means that it will function like a regular hard drive/USB-memory so that you
can simply drag and drop the files to/from/within the phones storage.

I don't have an S4 nor an I5 so I can't give you more info then this.

[race aficionado]

poll

Is Mark going to the dark side?

:D

[airshifter]

poll

Is Mark going to the dark side?

:D

No point. He said he is thinking of switching to Android, not Windoze. :D


I agree with some of the earlier statements. Out of the box the iPhone is an easier to use device, but has limits on software and how much you can customize it. Out of the box most Android phones can be a bit more pain in the butt to set up for easy access to common features, but you can change so many things it's mind boggling at times.

I haven't seen enough Windows phones to form a first hand opinion. Over here it seems they can't hardly give them away.

[Mark]

There no point in buying windows. It's between iOS and Android. Changing ecosystems is a big deal and you want to be going to one which is well supported. That might be Windows one day but not at the moment.

What do you need that Windows PHONE doesn't offer?

Depth of app support. First one I checked; Strava, not on Windows. End of story.

[Mark]

Just watched a video overview of the Galaxy S4, looks very impressive. But of course the S5 will be better; but then there's always something new on the horizon...

Mind you iOS 7 is out tomorrow so we'll see how that changes my iPhone.

[Malbec]

Just watched a video overview of the Galaxy S4, looks very impressive. But of course the S5 will be better; but then there's always something new on the horizon...

Why limit yourself to the S4? The HTC One and Sony Xperia Z are equally worthy, are better built and are probably cheaper these days than the Samsung, plus aren't as bloated with pre-loaded software.

Currently I have serious doubts about Google's attitude towards privacy and security and I wouldn't buy an Android on those grounds alone.

I would also cast an eye over Windows phones, I know the apps aren't as well covered as for iphone/android but you might well be pleasantly surprised. I'm absolutely delighted with mine.

[Mark]

Aren't as well covered is one way to put it. Practically non existent is another.

[BleAivano]

Just watched a video overview of the Galaxy S4, looks very impressive. But of course the S5 will be better; but then there's always something new on the horizon...

Why limit yourself to the S4? The HTC One and Sony Xperia Z are equally worthy, are better built and are probably cheaper these days than the Samsung, plus aren't as bloated with pre-loaded software.

Currently I have serious doubts about Google's attitude towards privacy and security and I wouldn't buy an Android on those grounds alone.

I would also cast an eye over Windows phones, I know the apps aren't as well covered as for iphone/android but you might well be pleasantly surprised. I'm absolutely delighted with mine.

Google, MS, Apple it does not matter they are all the same, Apple is possible even worse then Google.

[pino]

Just watched a video overview of the Galaxy S4, looks very impressive. But of course the S5 will be better; but then there's always something new on the horizon...

Mind you iOS 7 is out tomorrow so we'll see how that changes my iPhone.

Traitor ! :p:

[BleAivano]

Traitor ! :p:

No no.

Its great that Mark finally have seen the light. ;)

[Mark]

Just watched a video overview of the Galaxy S4, looks very impressive. But of course the S5 will be better; but then there's always something new on the horizon...

Mind you iOS 7 is out tomorrow so we'll see how that changes my iPhone.

Traitor ! :p:

hehe! I'm just looking at the iPhone 5S and thinking - shall I get one. Then I think well I could spend all that money and not have something which is that much different to what I have. Now in many ways that's a good thing; but from time to time you like a change..

[henners88]

Just watched a video overview of the Galaxy S4, looks very impressive. But of course the S5 will be better; but then there's always something new on the horizon...

Mind you iOS 7 is out tomorrow so we'll see how that changes my iPhone.

Traitor ! :p:

hehe! I'm just looking at the iPhone 5S and thinking - shall I get one. Then I think well I could spend all that money and not have something which is that much different to what I have. Now in many ways that's a good thing; but from time to time you like a change..
You could always pre order the 5S and by the time you get it and it arrives with the new iOS 7 interface, it will look drastically different to what you have now. The 5S doesn't interest me because it is only slightly more advanced than the iPhone 5 I have now, but if I was coming from a 4 or 4S, then its a massive jump IMO. My wife came from an iPhone 4 to a 5 and thought that was a big leap, but it depends what you expect.

Then again if you fancy a change, try Android and see how it goes. You have 14 days to return a device if you don't like it. I loved Android when I was on it for 4 or so years, but like yourself I got a little bored and thought I'd try something different like the iPhone. You don't know until you try ;) ... I don't think there is too much difference really as they both offer the same use, just achieve it in different ways. I happen to prefer the stability and smoothness of iOS now and the App Store and iTunes. I also feel the quality of the apps on iOS are slightly more refined. Tapatalk, Facebook, and Twitter are three I use the most regularly and I noticed a big difference. I also didn't like the adverts popping up all the time. I would say try Android Mark and see how it goes. You'd probably enjoy the tinkering element I would imagine. I have known friends do the jump and return to the iPhone, but everybody is different and you won't know until you try :)

[Mark]

You could always pre order the 5S and by the time you get it and it arrives with the new iOS 7 interface,

My 4S will have the iOS 7 interface by tomorrow perhaps even later today.

it will look drastically different to what you have now. The 5S doesn't interest me because it is only slightly more advanced than the iPhone 5 I have now, but if I was coming from a 4 or 4S, then its a massive jump IMO. My wife came from an iPhone 4 to a 5 and thought that was a big leap, but it depends what you expect.

[Mark]

You know what the main reason has been; it's this forum. Think of vBulletin as iOS and phpBB as Android ;). Realising that a change is sometimes interesting :)

[henners88]

You could always pre order the 5S and by the time you get it and it arrives with the new iOS 7 interface,

My 4S will have the iOS 7 interface by tomorrow perhaps even later today.
Oh yeah I am aware iOS7 becomes available today from 1pm EST, I was just suggesting there is a change coming and if you upgraded to another iPhone, you will be part of that change but with a newer faster phone. There will be a difference between the look of iOS 7 on a 4S to a 5 or 5S too.

If you want a change then do it. I doubt the Samsung s5 will out until February next year as they tend to work on a yearly cycle of late, so you either have 6 months to wait sampling iOS or jump now and get an S4. The S4 is a very good phone and one I have played with quite extensively. Its nice, big (too big for my taste), and very different to what you are used to. Try it.

Can't say I like the look of the new forum though. It is one I am used to on Planet F1 as they use the same template, but not one I am fond of. You can't see the thread titles in the main screen and the quote system seems very old fashioned. Just my opinion though. I think my days of daily forum participation are well and truly over anyway so what do I know? At least I am not around enough to annoy people this time, or at least that is the plan lol.

[pino]

You could always pre order the 5S and by the time you get it and it arrives with the new iOS 7 interface,


... Just my opinion though. I think my days of daily forum participation are well and truly over anyway so what do I know? At least I am not around enough to annoy people this time, or at least that is the plan lol.

That's very sad to hear it, I am sure most members (myself included) loves to read your comments, and would like you to come back and post like in the old days :)

[pino]

Back to the topic...I cant wait to get my hands on the 5S :D

[Mark]

Back to the topic...I cant wait to get my hands on the 5S :D

You've going to upgrade to that?

[pino]

Back to the topic...I cant wait to get my hands on the 5S :D

You've going to upgrade to that?

Yes, as soon it comes to DK ;)

[Mark]

Yes, as soon it comes to DK ;)

Cool. Please report back here with comparisons to the 4S.

[pino]

Yes, as soon it comes to DK ;)

Cool. Please report back here with comparisons to the 4S.

I will but could take some time as I don't know when it gets here.

[henners88]

That's very sad to hear it, I am sure most members (myself included) loves to read your comments, and would like you to come back and post like in the old days :)
That's nice to know Pino cheers. :)

[SGWilko]

Just watched a video overview of the Galaxy S4, looks very impressive. But of course the S5 will be better; but then there's always something new on the horizon...

Mind you iOS 7 is out tomorrow so we'll see how that changes my iPhone.

Traitor ! :p:

hehe! I'm just looking at the iPhone 5S and thinking - shall I get one. Then I think well I could spend all that money and not have something which is that much different to what I have. Now in many ways that's a good thing; but from time to time you like a change..
I'll wave to you as you queue at the Apple store in Regent Street shall I? :D

[henners88]

I'll wave to you as you queue at the Apple store in Regent Street shall I? :D
He could always avoid grotty London and buy it in one of the nicer Apple stores in the country ;)

I'd never queue for an iPhone, a game or anything product based like that. The people who queue for days and days just so they can say they were first really confuse me. :)

[Mark]

By coincidence just seen an S4 in person. Looks nice, but also looks a little laggy. Hmm

[henners88]

By coincidence just seen an S4 in person. Looks nice, but also looks a little laggy. Hmm
It will be a lot more laggy in comparison to iOS, but it depends if the other benefits (i.e the ability to customise) outweigh some of the annoyances for you? One thing you notice jumping from Android to iOS is how smooth the iPhone is to use, or at least I did. If you want a big screen and endless settings, its what you will have to put up with on Android. A mate of mine has the HTC One and he swears blind it has no lag and is as fluid as my iPhone. Whenever I demonstrate it though he can't see it, yet I can. Its obvious to me. Its probably not much to worry about in the grand scheme though.

[Mark]

Got iOS7 last night. Not sure about it yet tbh, will have to spend more time getting used to it. It seems rather my clunky and less slick but then I've been using the previous versions for 3 years.

[pino]

I will install it as soon as I make som space on my 4S. Can't decide what artists delete from my music, wish I had a 128GB version :p:

[Mark]

I will install it as soon as I make som space on my 4S. Can't decide what artists delete from my music, wish I had a 128GB version :p:

I had to delete all of my UK maps to make space!

[BleAivano]

I will install it as soon as I make som space on my 4S. Can't decide what artists delete from my music, wish I had a 128GB version :p:

Get an S4, then you can expand the storage. :p

[pino]

No thanks, I am fine with the iPhone :p:

[Mark]

iOS7 seems to have left me with a bit more space compared with iOS6.

[Mark]

After a short time getting used to iOS7 I do quite like it. It does seem a bit more polished than iOS6 but fundamentally it does the same things in the same ways.

[BleAivano]

After a short time getting used to iOS7 I do quite like it. It does seem a bit more polished than iOS6 but fundamentally it does the same things in the same ways.

But isn't that the case with all Iphones? They all look more or less the same and have the same Ios version
(to some extent) and the same functions. Regardless of if it is a Ip4s, Ip5, Ip5s?

What differences is there between a 4s and a 5s besides the fingerprint scanner?
And what differences are the between a 4s, 5 and 5c?

[Mark]

What differences is there between a 4s and a 5s besides the fingerprint scanner?


There aren't a lot of differences. Between the 4S and the 5S, then the main things are the 4" instead of 3.5" screen, and a much faster processor.


And what differences are the between a 4s, 5 and 5c?

http://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/

[BleAivano]

There aren't a lot of differences. Between the 4S and the 5S, then the main things are the 4" instead of 3.5" screen,
and a much faster processor.



Ok, I was just wondering why people is so eager to spend so much money on something
that is basically the same as what they already have?

Do similar comparison between the S3 and S4 and the S4 (http://www.versus.com/sv/samsung-galaxy-s4-64gb-vs-samsung-galaxy-s3) is significantly better then its predecessor,
yet I can hardly understand why someone who bought a S3 last year now spends the money on the S4.

Also for you pros and cons between S4 and 5s: http://www.versus.com/sv/apple-iphone-5 ... xy-s4-64gb (http://www.versus.com/sv/apple-iphone-5s-vs-samsung-galaxy-s4-64gb#samsung-galaxy-s4-64gb)

[Mark]

That's the reason I haven't ordered a 5S ;). It's substantially the same as my 4S, with only relatively minor advantages.

Whereas the Galaxy S4 is completely different.

PS Just seen the Galaxy Note 3, looks really nice, apart from the 'leather' back which is awful awful awful and a complete deal breaker.

[Daniel]

By coincidence just seen an S4 in person. Looks nice, but also looks a little laggy. Hmm

The "smoothness" of OS's is usually down to animations which make you think a phone is fast when it isn't.

[Daniel]

There no point in buying windows. It's between iOS and Android. Changing ecosystems is a big deal and you want to be going to one which is well supported. That might be Windows one day but not at the moment.

What do you need that Windows PHONE doesn't offer?

Depth of app support. First one I checked; Strava, not on Windows. End of story.

Endomondo is on Windows Phone. Personally I've not seen anything that Strava does that I'd actually want?

[Mark]

By coincidence just seen an S4 in person. Looks nice, but also looks a little laggy. Hmm

The "smoothness" of OS's is usually down to animations which make you think a phone is fast when it isn't.

Yes indeed. My 4S is noticeably slower with iOS7 despite more animations.

[Daniel]

Aren't as well covered is one way to put it. Practically non existent is another.

You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder when it comes to Windows Phone.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-575421 ... p-50-apps/ (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57542103-94/windows-phone-8-users-can-access-46-of-top-50-apps/)

To say that app's are practically non-existent on Windows Phone is rather ignorant of the facts to say the least.

The only one of the top 50 apps now not available on windows phone is Instragram.

[Daniel]

By coincidence just seen an S4 in person. Looks nice, but also looks a little laggy. Hmm

The "smoothness" of OS's is usually down to animations which make you think a phone is fast when it isn't.

Yes indeed. My 4S is noticeably slower with iOS7 despite more animations.

I can't remember what two phones I was comparing once, but I remember that the one that "felt" faster wasn't actually the one that was quicker, the animations just gave the impression of speed, a phone that merely sits on the same screen appearing not to do anything will always feel slower.

[Mark]

Not at all I've nothing against Windows phone. Seems like a fine OS. But there's little point switching to something which doesn't have the app support I'm looking for. That would be foolish in the extreme.

[Daniel]

Not at all I've nothing against Windows phone. Seems like a fine OS. But there's little point switching to something which doesn't have the app support I'm looking for. That would be foolish in the extreme.

There's more to an OS than app support though. There's a reason Malbec was recommending Windows Phone, they really are fantastic, i wish I'd waited till the 1020 and upcoming 1520 are out. Imo the cameras on the high end Lumia's are reason enough to not care about a couple of apps.

[Dave B]

Missing Instagram is a plus, surely? :p

[henners88]

A good part of my mobile experience is had with apps I have to say. I like to have a good choice and one of the positives for me with iOS, is the fact apps are heavily vetted so that they run smoothly with my phone. The App Store is well supported and I feel Windows phone still has a fair few years of catching up to do in order to match Android and Apple. If you don't use apps extensively then it would make little difference what OS your chose.

I think in many cases it boils down to personal preference. I could move back to android and have no issues as it's an OS I am very familiar with. Windows phone isn't to my taste (lack of notifications and dislike the aesthetics of live tiles), although it matches iOS for stability and a relatively lag free experience from what I have seen. I found with Android it's laggy, but you get used to it. Android is the OS to have if you want unlimited choice, and the other two if you want easy, reliable, and relatively hassle free.

I love iOS 7 I have to add. After a few days using it it very fluid, prettier to look at and seems to have slightly improved my battery life, or so it appears. It runs pretty smooth on the iPhone 5 but is very slightly slower on the 4 as I saw earlier on my father in laws.


Sent from my ?

[Daniel]

A good part of my mobile experience is had with apps I have to say. I like to have a good choice and one of the positives for me with iOS, is the fact apps are heavily vetted so that they run smoothly with my phone. The App Store is well supported and I feel Windows phone still has a fair few years of catching up to do in order to match Android and Apple. If you don't use apps extensively then it would make little difference what OS your chose.

I think in many cases it boils down to personal preference. I could move back to android and have no issues as it's an OS I am very familiar with. Windows phone isn't to my taste (lack of notifications and dislike the aesthetics of live tiles), although it matches iOS for stability and a relatively lag free experience from what I have seen. I found with Android it's laggy, but you get used to it. Android is the OS to have if you want unlimited choice, and the other two if you want easy, reliable, and relatively hassle free.

I love iOS 7 I have to add. After a few days using it it very fluid, prettier to look at and seems to have slightly improved my battery life, or so it appears. It runs pretty smooth on the iPhone 5 but is very slightly slower on the 4 as I saw earlier on my father in laws.


Sent from my ?

Windows Phone is gaining traction and it is starting to rise to numbers that app makers will be finding hard to ignore any day now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 94832.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/windows-phones-market-share-finally-on-the-rise-as-androids-lead-lessens-8794832.html)

At one point Microsoft was actually paying for companies to design games to compete with companies who refused to write apps for Windows Phone, so you either write a game for Windows Phone or Microsoft pays for someone to come and take the market share you would have had ;)

Nokia has flooded the market with so many models that there is one at every price point, unlike when they launched their WP7 devices with only the relatively high end Lumia 800.

It might be taking longer than Microsoft would have hoped, but Microsoft are making real gains, Apple still don't have a cheap model, they're always going to lose market share to people who simply don't want to pay over 30 quid a month for last years model in a coloured shell.

[henners88]

I don't think Apple need a cheap model personally. If someone wants a cheap phone, there are hundreds already in the market to choose from. The 5c is a facelift version of my 5, but will attract those ready to upgrade at the kind of price the outgoing 5 would have had. It has its niche and the 5s will pick up those willing to pay standard consistent iPhone prices. If the prices are still too high for some, it's not like there is lack of choice elsewhere. If I decide on my next upgrade I can't justify the cost, i'll get a top end Android phone. It would have to be the stock edition though having got used to the stability of iOS.


Sent from my ?

[Daniel]

I don't think Apple need a cheap model personally. If someone wants a cheap phone, there are hundreds already in the market to choose from. The 5c is a facelift version of my 5, but will attract those ready to upgrade at the kind of price the outgoing 5 would have had. It has its niche and the 5s will pick up those willing to pay standard consistent iPhone prices. If the prices are still too high for some, it's not like there is lack of choice elsewhere. If I decide on my next upgrade I can't justify the cost, i'll get a top end Android phone. It would have to be the stock edition though having got used to the stability of iOS.


Sent from my ?

The problem is this, market share.

The more low end customers who go to Android or Windows Phone as their first smart phone purchase, the less of the total market that Apple has, once Windows Phone equals Apple in marketshare, then there'll be less and less of an excuse for App makers not to make Windows Phone apps, then the competition will be based purely on specs and functionality and Apple will start to fall away.

We've all seen how quickly Android overtook iOS, if Windows Phone does it then Apple are in deep doo doo.

[henners88]

Android will always maintain a larger proportion of the market than Apple because they cover a wider range of consumer. Nokia will most probably overtake Apple too at some stage because they are more affordable. Apple although occupy a fourth of what android does in the market, still make more profit and have maintained that for the past 4 years. There would have to be a serious decline in interest for Apple to be considered to be in trouble IMO. There is certainly no sign of trouble yet. Market share is important, but consistency and profit seem to be Apples priority over domination. We'll see, I'm not worried.


Sent from my ?

[Mark]

Your right Apple didn't need the 5C. IMO it's pitched wrong. They should have perhaps recased the iPhone 4 and made it much cheaper in order to make a big difference to the 5S.

Part of the reason the 5C is so expensive is that they don't want people buying a 5C who would have otherwise bought a 5S. Thus the price difference is small.

As for Windows. It'll get there of course. As long as Microsoft keep going with it. Which they show every intention of so doing especially as they now own a handset manufacturer.

I switched from Nokia when the apps I wanted were available on iPhone. I'm considering Android now all the apps I need are there. I'm dismissing Windows as the apps aren't there but when they are. Things might change. I'm happy to use whatever device is going to work best for me.

Unlike some who will only base their choice on what company makes it ;)

[Daniel]

Your right Apple didn't need the 5C. IMO it's pitched wrong. They should have perhaps recased the iPhone 4 and made it much cheaper in order to make a big difference to the 5S.

Part of the reason the 5C is so expensive is that they don't want people buying a 5C who would have otherwise bought a 5S. Thus the price difference is small.

As for Windows. It'll get there of course. As long as Microsoft keep going with it. Which they show every intention of so doing especially as they now own a handset manufacturer.

I switched from Nokia when the apps I wanted were available on iPhone. I'm considering Android now all the apps I need are there. I'm dismissing Windows as the apps aren't there but when they are. Things might change. I'm happy to use whatever device is going to work best for me.

Unlike some who will only base their choice on what company makes it ;)

What apps do you need? Just out of curiosity why is strava a must have over Endomondo?

I understand why they're protecting the 5s, but in time the money they will make on each handset sale will become less of an issue than the profit they make on app sales.

When I bought my first Windows Phone back in 2010 WP was a bit of a joke in terms of Apps, but I've never really been an app person, I use my phone for browsing the web and when I use facebook, I use the web version because no matter what I've tried, it's always faster, when I check in I'm forced to use the app if I want to tag people and upload a photo at the same time, but that's about it.

I go for an interface, how the phone feels, the screen and a decent camera. Sadly for Apple, they don't lead the market in any of these fields. I spose you could say their build quality is good, but I don't want something so small and up until the iPhone 5, something that had a glass back. I dropped my Lumia 800 back in December when it didn't have its silicone bumper on, it got a tiny crack in the bottom right corner of the screen, if it were an iPhone it would have been a new screen and a new back probably.

The problem for Apple is cost, I suspect one of the reasons you would consider swapping is cost, any current Apple phone on a contract is expensive, you can get a Windows or Android equivalent for 5-10 pounds less per month which is quite a bit over 24 months.

For less than a 5c will cost you per month, you can get a Lumia 1020 which is a flagship with a fantastic camera. Depending on my job situation, I might get myself a 1020 or a 1520 for Christmas :) I like my Ativ S, but it's just not a Nokia and I know that the first time I drop it properly, it's going to fly apart at a rate of knots.

I think you're right, a lower cost iPhone 4 equivalent would have been better.

[henners88]

Personal preference and priorities concerning features is all that really sets top end phones apart. It's all subjective and everyone has different ideas to how they want a phone to feel. The iPhone was no more expensive than the top end Android phone of the time last year, the S3. I chose it on personal feel and what it could do. Most people I know own the iPhone so it generates very little discussion which is why it's nice to share experiences on the internet. Our little secret though :p


Sent from my ?

[Daniel]

Personal preference and priorities concerning features is all that really sets top end phones apart. It's all subjective and everyone has different ideas to how they want a phone to feel. The iPhone was no more expensive than the top end Android phone of the time last year, the S3. I chose it on personal feel and what it could do. Most people I know own the iPhone so it generates very little discussion which is why it's nice to share experiences on the internet. Our little secret though :p


Sent from my ?

In terms of the OS, iOS hasn't really evolved all that much since it launched though. It's still the basic grid design.

[Daniel]

In related news, Caroline will probably be upgrading to a Lumia 920 or 925 this week after using my hand me down Samsung Omia 7 since 2 Christmases ago.

[airshifter]

We've all seen how quickly Android overtook iOS, if Windows Phone does it then Apple are in deep doo doo.

This coming from the person that started the thread thinking the iPad would tank. I'm guessing investors aren't lined up at your door trying to figure out what the tech markets are doing. :D


I think a lot of people read way too much crap into all this. For the majority of people, they are basic communication devices and all are capable of what the majority use them for. So just like cars, people just buy what they like and are comfortable with. If everyone I know goes out and switches to Apple, or WP, it won't make me run out and get one. But if I decide I want an iPhone or WinPhone, I'll get one, know matter what anyone else thinks.



I really pity the people who get so hung up on the whole thing. If the forum is any indication, most people don't worry about it all that much for their phones, and they certainly don't worry about what phones others are using.

[henners88]

In terms of the OS, iOS hasn't really evolved all that much since it launched though. It's still the basic grid design.
It hasn't needed to have changed as far as I am concerned. What more do you need than all your apps and shortcuts on one screen? A design does not have to change every single year to earn kudos or prove it works. The grid design is a recognisable element of the iPhone. It's a design many others have taken influence from too. Microsoft have a live tile interface which is three years old now and is their look that no other OS shares. I don't like it and you may not like Apples, but they both work well and appeal to different types of people. I just worry about what appeals to me. Market share and opinions on the age of a design have no overall influence on my upgrade decisions. At least on that basis I can't be accused of following a crowd lol. :)


Sent from my ?

[SGWilko]

There's more to an OS than app support though. There's a reason Malbec was recommending Windows Phone, they really are fantastic, i wish I'd waited till the 1020 and upcoming 1520 are out. Imo the cameras on the high end Lumia's are reason enough to not care about a couple of apps.

True though that maybe, for Mark, app support is what he clearly looks for in a mobile OS. And if the app support he needs is not as well supported on a Windows 'phone, then that will be why he does not rate it as high as others.

[Mark]

What apps do you need? Just out of curiosity why is strava a must have over Endomondo?


Because of the segments, give it a try ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

BlackBerry shares just halted on the NASDAQ pending a news announcement. Looks like the company is heading the same route as Nokia and Palm, and is about to be acquired prior to sinking totally.

[Malbec]

I don't think Apple need a cheap model personally.

They need one now, and it needs to be cheaper than the one they just brought out.

The market Apple need to be really worried about is China. They've played hardball with China Mobile, the world's largest mobile network which has basically told them to offer iPhones at a discount or f' off from the very beginning. Apple had thought that not being able to offer iPhones on their network would bring China Mobile to their knees but no such luck. Several years later CM are telling Apple that they are not going to pay the usual subsidies for iPhones, Apple has to offer them at a discount or lose out on the biggest single market in the world.

As a result Apple is losing sales hand over fist there and is trying to clinch a deal with CM and also get more sales through other networks. The problem here is that their iPhones sell for $900 due to taxes while Android equivalents are several times cheaper. Apple therefore needs a much more affordable model now to get market penetration there before its too late and their new model isn't cheap enough IMO.

Its not much better for Google in China BTW, the government forces Android to be shipped entirely without Google apps like the App shop, Gmail and maps so they don't make any money from China at all.

[Malbec]

Whereas the Galaxy S4 is completely different.

Seriously, don't just blindly go for the Samsung. Take a look at the HTC and Sony equivalents. The former is a work of art whilst the latter is better built than the Samsung and water/dustproof to boot. I think both have far less bloatware too so are less laggy than the Samsung out of the box.

[henners88]

I don't think Apple need a cheap model personally.

They need one now, and it needs to be cheaper than the one they just brought out.

The market Apple need to be really worried about is China. They've played hardball with China Mobile, the world's largest mobile network which has basically told them to offer iPhones at a discount or f' off from the very beginning. Apple had thought that not being able to offer iPhones on their network would bring China Mobile to their knees but no such luck. Several years later CM are telling Apple that they are not going to pay the usual subsidies for iPhones, Apple has to offer them at a discount or lose out on the biggest single market in the world.

As a result Apple is losing sales hand over fist there and is trying to clinch a deal with CM and also get more sales through other networks. The problem here is that their iPhones sell for $900 due to taxes while Android equivalents are several times cheaper. Apple therefore needs a much more affordable model now to get market penetration there before its too late and their new model isn't cheap enough IMO.

Its not much better for Google in China BTW, the government forces Android to be shipped entirely without Google apps like the App shop, Gmail and maps so they don't make any money from China at all.
Time will tell. A lot of scaremongering came last week after the launches and with sales healthy and the brand being voted coolest in the UK, I hope Apple know what they are doing. If market tactics are obvious to some, let's hope Apples marketing department keep an eye on the internet.


Sent from my ?

[Jag_Warrior]

In seeking to recapture marketshare in China and other developing markets, if they go the route of offering phones that are perceived as "down market", Apple has to finely balance the benefits of increased sales with the risk of margin shrink and damage to the brand. This is precisely the point that Steve Jobs was making when he said that Mercedes and BMW don't obsess about marketshare as much as brand preservation. But still, BMW and Mercedes do play at the lower end of the luxury market. IMO, this is what Apple has to figure out. I'm not sure that they can continue to do as well as they have if they just focus on premium priced tech gadgets.

I think the China Mobile deal will happen sooner than later. They do need that. From what I've read, China Mobile has already began work on an advertising campaign.

[henners88]

Those concerned about Apple and market share might want to read this:

http://m.tuaw.com/2013/09/24/why-smartp ... es-top-pr/ (http://m.tuaw.com/2013/09/24/why-smartphone-marketshare-is-overrated-and-not-apples-top-pr/)

If Apple wanted to secure a majority of the market share, they could simply produce cheap, crap phones. They have the brand that sells after all. I think the article explains the reasons why they don't take the easy route.

[donKey jote]

:laugh:
https://twitter.com/sweenz001/status/381774979672846337

@sweenz001 What a fucking donk you are
:laugh: :laugh:
( http://news.sky.com/story/1145439/water ... ers-fooled (http://news.sky.com/story/1145439/waterproof-iphone-advert-owners-fooled) )

[SGWilko]

( http://news.sky.com/story/1145439/water ... ers-fooled (http://news.sky.com/story/1145439/waterproof-iphone-advert-owners-fooled) )

More morons than you can shake a stick at! I mean, really????

[BleAivano]

So if cheap phones will hurt your image and thus result in fewer sales, then why is Samsung doing so well?
They have both simpler and cheaper models as well as their flagship the S4, still they have the largest market share.

Regarding Apple and Iphone they're aren't really that "exclusive" as they think it is, expensive yes but overpriced
when there's S4's and HTC One's that are both better and cheaper.

[Malbec]

So if cheap phones will hurt your image and thus result in fewer sales, then why is Samsung doing so well?
They have both simpler and cheaper models as well as their flagship the S4, still they have the largest market share.


Samsung have efficiencies of scale and also have the advantage of being able to manufacture the entire phone in-house slashing costs because of their background as a component maker, something no other manufacturer can do. Elop recently talked about why Nokia never went for Android, it was because they could see from very early on, around the time the S2 came out that Samsung would utterly dominate the Android world. At the time Samsung were also the only smartphone maker with a huge cash surplus available for R/D and marketing other than Apple, the rest like HTC and Sony were and remain small fry.

[Malbec]

In seeking to recapture marketshare in China and other developing markets, if they go the route of offering phones that are perceived as "down market", Apple has to finely balance the benefits of increased sales with the risk of margin shrink and damage to the brand.

True, but in China and also in India they are under-represented if at all. In China they also have the opportunity to make profit in a market where Google isn't allowed to compete in terms of the revenue generating part of the business, ie apps and content downloading. I would have thought the opportunity cost of messing things up with China mobile are really quite significant.

I think Apple are probably happy where they are when it comes to Western markets, they make a much higher profit per handset than Google taking into account apps/content sales and that side of the business is fine. Tablets look like they're hitting a race for the bottom, something they are not interested in so declining iPad sales are probably not as big a problem as people make it out to be.


I think the China Mobile deal will happen sooner than later. They do need that. From what I've read, China Mobile has already began work on an advertising campaign.

Lets hope so. Perhaps Apple will learn from Google's mistakes in China which have effectively lead to them being locked out of the market too.

[henners88]

So if cheap phones will hurt your image and thus result in fewer sales, then why is Samsung doing so well?
They have both simpler and cheaper models as well as their flagship the S4, still they have the largest market share.
Samsung have always made cheap mobile phones and have been doing so longer than they have made devices at the premium end of the market. They are able to develop in-house and have considerably cheaper manufacturing costs than Apple. Why is having the biggest market share so important? Why does this keep getting repeated like it is the key to success? Apple have recorded bigger profits in the mobile sector than Samsung in the last 12 months which shows they have a very different business model. Apple are investing in their brand and maximising profitability and Samsung are going for a wider reach.


Regarding Apple and Iphone they're aren't really that "exclusive" as they think it is, expensive yes but overpriced when there's S4's and HTC One's that are both better and cheaper.
I agree the iPhone isn't an exclusive product any more. I know more people with iPhones than any other phone so it kind of takes away the exclusivity somewhat. Your opinion though, that you can get an S4 or HTC One which is 'cheaper and better', I am afraid is a subjective opinion held by yourself. There is no correct formula to say why a phone is better than anything else in its range. I wouldn't stand here and say the iPhone is the best phone on the planet because it is obvious it has plenty of competition and different people have different tastes. The S4 or HTC One are not the best phones for 'me' or I would have had either. There are many reasons why different people choose a variety of top end mobile phones. Some people like a big screen and a spec list that puts some computers to shame. Some like reliability in an operating system. Some like a phone with a solid build and an aesthetically pleasing exterior to back up all its other attributes. An easy to use straight out of the box approach is appealing also. Some are brand loyal.... You cannot pin down as fact why any of the top phones are the outright best and I think it is best to leave that type of arrogance out of discussions like this because it gets us nowhere. Its horses for courses with all flag ship phones and my choice may not suit yours and vice versa.

[BleAivano]

Samsung is a proof that making and selling cheaper models of phones does not affect the sales of the flagship model.
The S4 is one of the best selling phones ever despite that Samsung also have cheaper models.

Imo Its better to sell a cheap phone then not sell a phone at all.

Why it is important to have a large market share? It kind of speaks for itself doesn't it?
The bigger market share Samsung have, the smaller share the competitors have.

[henners88]

Yet nothing creates as much enthusiasm and buzz than an Apple launch. They get more coverage than any other product. The article I quoted earlier explains very well the reason why market share is not important to Apple, so that speaks for itself. If samsung are occupying more market share but recording less profit, it makes little difference how much market they have. It's not like Apple are struggling for sales or product interest. They could take the easy route and start churning out crap phones for under a hundred quid, but they don't need to.

[Jag_Warrior]

Samsung is a proof that making and selling cheaper models of phones does not affect the sales of the flagship model.
The S4 is one of the best selling phones ever despite that Samsung also have cheaper models.

Imo Its better to sell a cheap phone then not sell a phone at all.

Why it is important to have a large market share? It kind of speaks for itself doesn't it?
The bigger market share Samsung have, the smaller share the competitors have.

Despite the luxury of making many of its own components and having a large global marketshare in smartphones and handsets (33%), Samsung saw its mobile communications operating profit margin (Q2 2013) fall from 19.8% to 17.7%. Apple's operating profit margin for that period stood at approximately 34%. Without the impressive profit gains in the components business (up 71%), Samsung would have seen its Q2 profit growth fall rather flat. But things could always be worse. I read that Nokia's operating profit margin off the Windows Phone business was around 3%. :erm:

I'm not really disagreeing with your point about picking up incremental sales. But clearly, it is a balancing act. A company has to be very careful about allowing cheaper, lower margin products to cannibalize sales of more expensive, higher margin products. Oddly enough, in business sometimes it really is better to pass on an incremental sale, if that incremental sale is going to harm margins too much. Finding that balance is what Apple, Samsung and all the rest must do.

[Mark]

Of course the issue Samsung has is that they are running Android, which is freely available and not controlled by them. So if they didn't make the cheap end phones, someone else would, thus taking the sales away from Samsung, so they make them themselves and keep the profit - because they have to.

Whereas with Apple, they own iOS, and nobody else can use it on a phone so there's no risk of a competitor making a 'cheap' iPhone thus enabling them to have only high end models.

[Dave B]

This coming from the person that started the thread thinking the iPad would tank.

Thing is though, it's market share is tanking now that halfway decent Android tablets are available for well under £100, and really good ones for under £200. This xmas the shops will be full of sub-£100 tablets, some awful, some actually very capable machines. There's almost no compelling reason to spend two or three times as much on an iPad, unless you're already committed to their ecosystem.

iPads will most likely end up the same way as Macs: selling in reasonable numbers and making a decent amount of profit, but commanding a ~10% market share. That's not "tanking", I grant you, but given that Apple essentially made the form factor work after a few dismal efforts from others, MS included, that's got to be disappointing for them.

[henners88]

I can fully understand why people would buy £100 tablets as iPads are an extravagant purchase and quite an investment. Given the choice and if I had cash to burn I would have to still choose the iPad. I've used many tablets and we've tested many for work, however the iPad is by far the most refined experience I have used. The closest I have found is the galaxy tab, but even that falls significantly short IMO. It's what suits the individual though really and whatever takes their tastes and finances.

[Parabolica]

The HTC One is a decent enough phone. Does what I need it to do. Could not really care what it isn't good at, since I've coped do far in life without whatever it is it isn't that good at.

It's cheap. Which allows me to spend money on the things I value.

A phone is just a phone to me

I suspect that Apple disciples believe an iphone bestows upon them a degree of status which they feel is worth something it is not .

To me, they are simply image-obsessed tits.

Who gives a crap how profitable a company is, unless you have shares or work for it? It means nothing to anybody else.

Judging a product by the company's profit margin alone is a bizarre way to judge a product.

[Malbec]

Who gives a crap how profitable a company is, unless you have shares or work for it? It means nothing to anybody else.

Judging a product by the company's profit margin alone is a bizarre way to judge a product.

Actually I disagree. I find the mobile phone industry fascinating even though I'm no longer interested in buying their products (since I'm extremely happy with what I've got). Its dynamic with rapidly fluctuating changes in the balance of power between the main protagonists, much more so than other industries I've been interested in like cars or aviation. Then there's the interface between the technological advances in mobile phones and the relative strengths of the companies and how customers relate to them.

People mock Apple users for buying them as a default but the same is true of Android users buying Samsungs as a default despite neither product really being much better than their rivals in any objective sense.

[Parabolica]

Ok, it may be of interest for interests sake, but profitability bears little resemblance to the objective value or quality of the phone.

I have an HTC which apparently operates the Android system. To be honest, I have no idea what that is and how, or even if, it is different to an iphone.

I know it was substantially cheaper, yet does everything I need it to.

It is therefore a better product.

I could not care less if an iphone would be a better status symbol.

I am not so insecure as to care.

[Koz]

I know it was substantially cheaper, yet does everything I need it to.

It is therefore a better product.

I could not care less if an iphone would be a better status symbol.

I am not so insecure as to care.

The HTC One cost the same as an iPhone when it came out. It's price dropped hundreds of dollars since it came out.
Same for the Galaxy S4 and all the other android products in the same category, if you note the trend iPhone prices generally don't change over the lifetime, and the new iPhone comes in at the same price.

This keeps prices on the second hand market high and stable for Apple products.

[henners88]

The HTC One cost the same as an iPhone when it came out. It's price dropped hundreds of dollars since it came out.
Same for the Galaxy S4 and all the other android products in the same category, if you note the trend iPhone prices generally don't change over the lifetime, and the new iPhone comes in at the same price.

This keeps prices on the second hand market high and stable for Apple products.
That is a major positive about iPhones, you generally retain a fair sum of their value when selling second hand. As long as you keep them in good condition you can sell for up to 60% of their original value. I've always kept mobiles is good condition and sold on eBay so at least I have the option to pay towards a handset that is useful for personal use and my job. By the time I sold old devices at my last upgrade and persuaded my work to contribute, I paid very little. Next time around I hope to sell the iPhone for a decent sum and then access my options. I may fancy returning to Android by then, i'll never rule that out. It all depends how cheap the contracts are.

[BleAivano]

The HTC One cost the same as an iPhone when it came out. It's price dropped hundreds of dollars since it came out.
Same for the Galaxy S4 and all the other android products in the same category, if you note the trend iPhone prices generally don't change over the lifetime, and the new iPhone comes in at the same price.

This keeps prices on the second hand market high and stable for Apple products.
That is a major positive about iPhones, you generally retain a fair sum of their value when selling second hand. As long as you keep them in good condition you can sell for up to 60% of their original value. I've always kept mobiles is good condition and sold on eBay so at least I have the option to pay towards a handset that is useful for personal use and my job. By the time I sold old devices at my last upgrade and persuaded my work to contribute, I paid very little. Next time around I hope to sell the iPhone for a decent sum and then access my options. I may fancy returning to Android by then, i'll never rule that out. It all depends how cheap the contracts are.

actually I think it says more about the apple fanatics who buys the phones then the what it says about the phone itself.
Why would you spend so much money on a phone that is a year old? or even used? Or perhaps the price is
the whole point? Its expensive so therefore it's "status" to have one.

Also my point regarding Samsung's different price levels was that despite that they have several models
that are much cheaper then their flagship model the S4, the S4 is still selling extremely well.
Thus it proves that despite that are tons of cheaper models available it doesn't mean that
it will affect the flagship model.

[henners88]

The HTC One cost the same as an iPhone when it came out. It's price dropped hundreds of dollars since it came out.
Same for the Galaxy S4 and all the other android products in the same category, if you note the trend iPhone prices generally don't change over the lifetime, and the new iPhone comes in at the same price.

This keeps prices on the second hand market high and stable for Apple products.
That is a major positive about iPhones, you generally retain a fair sum of their value when selling second hand. As long as you keep them in good condition you can sell for up to 60% of their original value. I've always kept mobiles is good condition and sold on eBay so at least I have the option to pay towards a handset that is useful for personal use and my job. By the time I sold old devices at my last upgrade and persuaded my work to contribute, I paid very little. Next time around I hope to sell the iPhone for a decent sum and then access my options. I may fancy returning to Android by then, i'll never rule that out. It all depends how cheap the contracts are.

actually I think it says more about the apple fanatics who buys the phones then the what it says about the phone itself.
Why would you spend so much money on a phone that is a year old? or even used? Or perhaps the price is
the whole point? Its expensive so therefore it's "status" to have one.

Also my point regarding Samsung's different price levels was that despite that they have several models
that are much cheaper then their flagship model the S4, the S4 is still selling extremely well.
Thus it proves that despite that are tons of cheaper models available it doesn't mean that
it will affect the flagship model.
I've never considered owning an iPhone as giving someone status. I think they are just nice products that have acquired an element of desirability therefore hold their value well secondhand. Apple control the prices new and maintain them through carriers which means once they are sold on, people are willing to pay a little more for them because they are still cheaper than buying new. I don't think people are necessarily 'fanatics' if they buy them. That's possibly a bit of a harsh word to use as it suggests it's an i'll informed decision on their part, and the amount of people who buy second hand iPhones is a wide market. I would be wary buying a secondhand phone myself, regardless of the brand. I just don't like the thought of being ripped off.

[Parabolica]

Well that does it then, I'll take Six!

[Koz]

The HTC One cost the same as an iPhone when it came out. It's price dropped hundreds of dollars since it came out.
Same for the Galaxy S4 and all the other android products in the same category, if you note the trend iPhone prices generally don't change over the lifetime, and the new iPhone comes in at the same price.

This keeps prices on the second hand market high and stable for Apple products.
That is a major positive about iPhones, you generally retain a fair sum of their value when selling second hand. As long as you keep them in good condition you can sell for up to 60% of their original value. I've always kept mobiles is good condition and sold on eBay so at least I have the option to pay towards a handset that is useful for personal use and my job. By the time I sold old devices at my last upgrade and persuaded my work to contribute, I paid very little. Next time around I hope to sell the iPhone for a decent sum and then access my options. I may fancy returning to Android by then, i'll never rule that out. It all depends how cheap the contracts are.

actually I think it says more about the apple fanatics who buys the phones then the what it says about the phone itself.
Why would you spend so much money on a phone that is a year old? or even used? Or perhaps the price is
the whole point? Its expensive so therefore it's "status" to have one.

What are the alternatives??

Why hasn't the Samsung Galaxy S3 received updates to android 4.2? And we are a few days away from the 4.4 release...
And this is the flagship phone from last year...

Apple released and update to their entire range going back 3 years.

And another thing. My iPhone 4S functions flawlessly. I can't recall a moment when my phone ever stuttered. I had a play with this years flagships from HTC and Samsung, none of them seem to be able to provide an experience so smooth.

[Parabolica]

On thé flipside, My business partner has had an iphone 4 go into meltdown, yet my HTC has survived two impacts with stone floors (one broke the screen), but in spite of having cracks all over it, it works just fine.

For the money it cost, which was less than half that I was offered for an iPhone contract, it more than has made up for any lack of smoothness in its operation.

To be honest, if you are concerned about the smoothness of the function of your phone, you have way too much free time!

Owning an HTC One has also allowed me to easily afford the SKY F1 package.

Talk about a no-brainer decision.

[Koz]

On thé flipside, My business partner has had an iphone 4 go into meltdown, yet my HTC has survived two impacts with stone floors (one broke the screen), but in spite of having cracks all over it, it works just fine.

Over the years I've had my iphone drop from my lap onto asphalt. Still going.


For the money it cost, which was less than half that I was offered for an iPhone contract
May I ask how much it cost you?

I have seen a 15% drop in prices here, since it's release to buy outright, and that's the difference to the iPhone 5S. No difference between it than the iPhone 5S on contracts though.


To be honest, if you are concerned about the smoothness of the function of your phone, you have way too much free time!

I like my phones to be smooth when I take it out of the box. If it's just as smooth 2 years later, fantastic.
This sadly isn't the case with any android device I have used so far. I am sure most android users have learned to live with it or just ignore it, for me however it's much too noticeable to swap over just yet.

[Parabolica]

It costs, roughly, £15 per month. The closest iphone contract was for more like £50.

The iphone wasn't available on the same tariff/usage allowance anyway. Most of the time I'm running it through Wi-Fi, so don't need a big data allowance and don't make many calls anyway.

It may be that it isn't as smooth, but it does the job.

I certainly have better things to spend my money on than a phone that operates more smoothly, put it that way.

[henners88]

May I ask how much it cost you?

I have seen a 15% drop in prices here, since it's release to buy outright, and that's the difference to the iPhone 5S. No difference between it than the iPhone 5S on contracts though.
I know you are not asking me :) , but I am sensing there are some untruths elsewhere in the discussion concerning the iPhone. My contract is £26 a month. I get a £10 allowance from my employer that brings it down to £16. My contract is 24 months and I have unlimited minutes and texts with 1GB of data. When I was looking to upgrade last time around I discussed the Samsung S3 here and considering I was very familiar with Android, I nearly chose that device. As it turned out, the contracts for a new iPhone 5 were the same price and in some cases slightly cheaper and after comparing the two, I chose the iPhone. It all depends how you negotiate your contract and where you find it as you will always be able to get money off, especially if you have years of loyalty with your carrier. iPhone contracts are not the expensive for expensive sake deals they used to be. I have to also say I dropped my iPhone for the first time last week and have a nice big dent in the bottom corner of the bezel. It still works and is affordable to me even with my strained finances.

Phones are everyday objects and you have to get one that suits your needs. If you sign up to a 24 month contract, you have to have piece of mind that it will be working to its full potential up until the end of the contract. If you can get a device that you know will be worth a decent sum of money sold on at the end in order to spread the cost, then all the better. My £16 a month mobile phone is £2 cheaper than my broadband in my home, so both combined are still a lot cheaper than other forms of entertainment. :)

[Parabolica]

I'd prefer to be called a liar directly, although either way it's an unnecessarily aggressive attitude to bring to a discussion.

I accept what people say on here in good faith, as it aids healthy debate.

It's a shame that level of respect isn't reciprocated. I had hoped it would be.

If somebody got an iphone for £26 a month, good for them. That deal was not available to me, and with due respect it is still more expensive than the contract I have for the HTC.

[Koz]

I'm on $40 a month (£20) due to a "technicality" in my contract, but the going rate here for all flagship models is absurdly high 89$ a month.

And as for my broadband, I pay 130$ a month.

It's shocking that carriers in Europe and the US can absorb the entire price of the phone.
16*24 = 384; less than what you would pay for an HTC One at a shop (395+).
26*24 = 624; slightly more than the cost of an iPhone (549+).

[Parabolica]

I got the HTC when my previous, non-smart phone, contract was up for renewal.

At the time, the HTC One V had just come out and O2 were offering it at £15 per month.

Both a new iPhone and a new top range Samsung were substantially more.

I didn't even consider them, for that reason.

If people choose to spend their money on a phone which costs more, then claim they are cash-strapped in other areas, it begs the question why they haven't been fiscally prudent, and raises questions as to the wisdom of their choices.

I'm sure the iPhone is excellent. It seems to carry an additional cost which this poster could not justify.

Perhaps that is why I am solvent enough to be able to afford other things?

[Koz]

I got the HTC when my previous, non-smart phone, contract was up for renewal.

At the time, the HTC One V had just come out and O2 were offering it at £15 per month.

Both a new iPhone and a new top range Samsung were substantially more.

I didn't even consider them, for that reason.

If people choose to spend their money on a phone which costs more, then claim they are cash-strapped in other areas, it begs the question why they haven't been fiscally prudent, and raises questions as to the wisdom of their choices.

I'm sure the iPhone is excellent. It seems to carry an additional cost which this poster could not justify.

Perhaps that is why I am solvent enough to be able to afford other things?

That one letter there makes a HUGE difference. HTC One V != HTC One.
It does not fall into the same category as the HTC One, S4 or iPhone; and this is the category to which I was referring.
So this has all been pointless?? Meh.

The S4, HTC One, iPhone etc are all devices that come out within the same "status symbol" price range. My point was the HTCs and Samsungs drop value substantially, 20-30% within months, while the iPhone does not and maintains value in the second hand market too.

The S4 and One both came out at the 600£ and are now both under 400, thats 30% in 6 months!!!
You can still sell your old iPhone 5 second hand for that price.

[Parabolica]

So what does an iPhone, or for that matter an HTC One, do that an HTC One V doesn't?

Would it change my life?

If not, then it is still relevant, since it is clear that I can function in smart-phone-world without greater expense.

Which, to me, is more important than the smoothness of the machine.

[henners88]

I justified. I might not be able come September 2014 however. I use it for my job, I get it partially paid for, I sold old devices and covered a substantial amount of the cost. I justified, I justified.

[Parabolica]

Good for you that you think you justified it.

I hope you can next year too.

If I was your employer, I'd want to know why you could not use something cheaper, but that is just the way I am business-minded.

And if someone can tell me why the extra cost is justified, that would be nice.

Smoothness alone isn't enough of a justification.

It still looks like a poor decision.

Is there some program that is on the iPhone that is required for your work which isn't available elsewhere?

By your manner, I'm beginning to suspect that you aren't interested in debating, but I'm prepared to give the benefit for now.

[Parabolica]

It's just been brought to my attention that I am on an ignore list, so the answers will never be known.

If anyone wishes to enlighten me from their perspective, they are most welcome.

Koz? You seem capable of debate and, respectfully, you seem to know the subject. Could you oblige where others refuse?

[Parabolica]

It seems that there is no other justification then, and I made the right choice.

[Malbec]

Good for you that you think you justified it.

I hope you can next year too.

If I was your employer, I'd want to know why you could not use something cheaper, but that is just the way I am business-minded.

And if someone can tell me why the extra cost is justified, that would be nice.

Smoothness alone isn't enough of a justification.

It still looks like a poor decision.

Is there some program that is on the iPhone that is required for your work which isn't available elsewhere?

By your manner, I'm beginning to suspect that you aren't interested in debating, but I'm prepared to give the benefit for now.

I don't get your aggression in the last few of your posts on this thread.

I completely understand your reasoning. Why buy a 3-series when you can buy an equally spacious equivalent Mondeo for several k less. 99% of the time you will not notice an objective difference between the two.

Which of those two is it that British consumers in particular want? Why is it that the cheaper of those two car models is struggling to make a case for itself in Ford's lineup while the more expensive one is (I think) Britain's best selling executive car?

Sure, you can tell me about the purity of the BMW's rear wheel drive handling blah blah blah but you wouldn't notice that in nose to tail traffic on the A406 where you'd be stuck most of the time.

The reality is that people do not want bog standard. They want special and are willing to pay a premium for it. Can you explain in objective terms what 'special' is? Nope. Is it measurable? Nope. Is it profitable? Hell yes.

This phenomenon is highly visible in many other fields so no need to get your knickers in a twist over its existence in the mobile phone market.

[Parabolica]

It was clearly implied that I was lying. How should I react to that?

Other than that, I haven't been aggressive. Persistence is not aggression. Claiming someone is dishonest is. Perhaps you should ask the other party why they are so rude?

I get that an iPhone is a more desirable product, just as a BMW is more desirable than a Mondeo.

My point is that, if, as it was claimed, a poster could not justify expense in another area of his life, why wasn't that the case in the area of the expense of a phone?

I make savings on practical things, so I can enjoy other things that are deemed luxuries. It's not been a bad philosophy so far.

I've asked if the iPhone offers something practical which is a requirement for his work, which is unavailable at a lesser price, as that would easily justify its purchase.

But it's been posted that I am not going to be responded to directly, so I guess that's something I'll never know.

Never mind. Life goes on.

[BleAivano]

some rumours about the new HTC One Max:

http://www.stuff.tv/htc/htc-one-max/rev ... -iphone-5s (http://www.stuff.tv/htc/htc-one-max/review/it-may-have-fingerprint-scanner-just-iphone-5s)
http://www.stuff.tv/htc/htc-one-max/gal ... wid=102331 (http://www.stuff.tv/htc/htc-one-max/gallery?viewid=102331)
http://www.knowyourmobile.com/htc/htc-o ... ce-rumours (http://www.knowyourmobile.com/htc/htc-one-max/20870/htc-one-max-release-date-specs-and-price-rumours)
http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/htc ... ctober-15/ (http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/htc-one-max-could-be-announced-october-15/)

a 5.9" screen is pretty big, perhaps almost too big?
And still they stubbornly seems to keep the built-in non-replaceable battery
which would be a big minus.

[henners88]

A 5.9" screen is far too big for my tastes but then again I feel a 5" screen is too big and they seem to sell very well. I'm sure like most devices in the market, this HTC will find its customer base. Perhaps those who want something near tablet size but phone capable? I prefer to be able to use my phone one handed so size is an important factor for me or lack of it perhaps lol.

[Koz]

So what does an iPhone, or for that matter an HTC One, do that an HTC One V doesn't?

Would it change my life?

If not, then it is still relevant, since it is clear that I can function in smart-phone-world without greater expense.

Which, to me, is more important than the smoothness of the machine.

That is a good question.

My justification, from two years ago, was that the iPhone 4/4S was the best phone on the market, nothing else was really up to scratch.

I was gifted an iPhone 4 in 2010. I found it didn't fit me, the size was a real killer for me, so I gave it away and went back to my old Nokia. I had an HTC Wildfire S for a while, at the time I though it was a good size.
It was just a terrible phone.
It was painfully slow. The battery sucked. It my 3G usage was through the roof. Software glitches made automatically sent out SMS to people when they called me and I tried to answer...
It really wasn't fit for purpose, used it under a month. Went back to Nokia. Still have it lying around somewhere, can't be bothered.

By the end of 2011 I already needed a phone because everyone was free calling/messaging/skypeing.
I needed something that was usable. I use my phone a lot, easily 20+ calls a day, email, messaging maybe every 20 mins. I need something that works, and works well.
So I didn't want to get another mid-range phone like the Wildfire, and struggle with it.
I had really, 3 options. iPhone, Galaxy S2, Xperia Arc S.

Someone here mentioned the backside of the Xperia cracking. I read the S2 had issues with the screen. iPhone was the best option. Smoothness is a requirement. I spend a fair amount of time on my phone, and it has to be as good as it can be. I don't want to waste time, I don't have time to waste.

Right now, as I said earlier in the thread, the best value for money is the Nexus 4. It has the specifications very close to the top phones from Samsung/HTC/Apple, for half the price.
I want to upgrade now, I don't think Android is good as iOS. The fragmentation hurts it, mainly optimization.

[Parabolica]

So what does an iPhone, or for that matter an HTC One, do that an HTC One V doesn't?

Would it change my life?

If not, then it is still relevant, since it is clear that I can function in smart-phone-world without greater expense.

Which, to me, is more important than the smoothness of the machine.

That is a good question.

My justification, from two years ago, was that the iPhone 4/4S was the best phone on the market, nothing else was really up to scratch.

I was gifted an iPhone 4 in 2010. I found it didn't fit me, the size was a real killer for me, so I gave it away and went back to my old Nokia. I had an HTC Wildfire S for a while, at the time I though it was a good size.
It was just a terrible phone.
It was painfully slow. The battery sucked. It my 3G usage was through the roof. Software glitches made automatically sent out SMS to people when they called me and I tried to answer...
It really wasn't fit for purpose, used it under a month. Went back to Nokia. Still have it lying around somewhere, can't be bothered.

By the end of 2011 I already needed a phone because everyone was free calling/messaging/skypeing.
I needed something that was usable. I use my phone a lot, easily 20+ calls a day, email, messaging maybe every 20 mins. I need something that works, and works well.
So I didn't want to get another mid-range phone like the Wildfire, and struggle with it.
I had really, 3 options. iPhone, Galaxy S2, Xperia Arc S.

Someone here mentioned the backside of the Xperia cracking. I read the S2 had issues with the screen. iPhone was the best option. Smoothness is a requirement. I spend a fair amount of time on my phone, and it has to be as good as it can be. I don't want to waste time, I don't have time to waste.

Right now, as I said earlier in the thread, the best value for money is the Nexus 4. It has the specifications very close to the top phones from Samsung/HTC/Apple, for half the price.
I want to upgrade now, I don't think Android is good as iOS. The fragmentation hurts it, mainly optimization.

Koz, thank you for your reply.

I feel more enlightened, although I am a luddite on things like fragmentation.

To be honest, I'm still surprised to hear voices on the other end of the line.

I'm not afraid of elecetricity anymore, though. Just deeply suspicious.

[SGWilko]

I make savings on practical things, so I can enjoy other things that are deemed luxuries. It's not been a bad philosophy so far.

Agree completely.

However, for some, perhaps an iPhone is more important that a SKy+HD Sports subscription at £50 odd quid a month?

And if/as/when interest rates mean my mortgage repayments increase, SKY will be the first casualty! :)

[henners88]

However, for some, perhaps an iPhone is more important that a SKy+HD Sports subscription at £50 odd quid a month?

And if/as/when interest rates mean my mortgage repayments increase, SKY will be the first casualty! :)
I would actually say it is more important for me to have a decent phone that I use daily over a satellite package I would only really use exclusively for 10 races a year. When you consider a Sky subscription is £36 a month more than I pay for my mobile phone, there is a massive difference. I still get to watch free on Sky Go should I find myself at home while a race is on and the races are covered by the BBC mostly anyway. Its not ideal but its still not worth 50 quid a month when you consider how much it offers. You are basically paying for the exclusivity of being able to watch live which I generally can't do anyway, and the extra 25 laps for 10 races. When I compare that to a device that I use daily for business and pleasure, I can easily say the iPhone is more important. I doubt I could get help from my employer to pay for a leisure item either!

I also need to point out that I used Android for a few years, 4 years in fact. I owned 3 HTC's, and a Samsung. There were many things that frustrated me with the OS and I have found iOS to suit my own personal needs much better. My company also don't let anybody who is not on Blackberry or iOS use the company WiFi. That may seem strange and quite a few question it but the stance remains. I had my reasons regarding my upgrade, I justified the cost at the time to myself and my employer, and I have had a good experience so far. I don't think 16 quid a month is a bad tariff and if it got to the point where I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't have it. Much like my choices elsewhere. Life is a bit of a bitch when you can't have all the things you want, which is why we prioritise. :)

[Parabolica]

However, for some, perhaps an iPhone is more important that a SKy+HD Sports subscription at £50 odd quid a month?

And if/as/when interest rates mean my mortgage repayments increase, SKY will be the first casualty! :)


I'm still not sure that Fragmentation issues justify extra expense though.

Unless it starts happening to me physically. When it might become a pressing matter.

[Parabolica]

My company also don't let anybody who is not on Blackberry or iOS use the company WiFi. That may seem strange and quite a few question it but the stance remains.

Which is as good a reason as any for choosing an iPhone, and makes more sense of your purchase.

Now, how much did your games console cost? If your free time is limited, what was the point of that purchase? I wouldn't think that playing games should be high on a young fathers priorities.






Only joking.

Although the PlayStation was the first thing that went in my house when the baby arrived. They don't tell you that in Ante-Natal class!

[Dave B]

I'm still not sure that Fragmentation issues justify extra expense though.

Unless it starts happening to me physically. When it might become a pressing matter.
Fragmentation hasn't been a problem for Windows, which supports literally billions of combinations of hardware; and it's not really been a problem for Android since the bad-ish old days of 2.2.

Besides, it's even less of a problem now that the bulk of services run as a freely updatable system app, supported by pretty much every device currently on the market. Have a read of this: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/ ... g-android/ (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/) :)

[Mark]

That's good to hear, all sounded like the bad old days of Nokia where the carrier would have to approve the update - which they usually didn't.

[pino]

About time for me to get a MacBook, should I get the Air or the Pro ? All advices are appreciated, just don't bother trying to change my mind, it will be an Apple :p:

[Mark]

Depends how much lugging about you are doing to do with it. If it's just sat on a table then the Pro is better because of the better screen etc, but if you're taking it around or on the sofa etc you'll want an air - or an iPad Air ;)

[race aficionado]

Mark - iPad air was a brillante idea by Apple ( this in reference to the heavy weight issue of the large iPad I purchased a while back)

[Mark]

Depends how much lugging about you are doing to do with it. If it's just sat on a table then the Pro is better because of the better screen etc, but if you're taking it around or on the sofa etc you'll want an air - or an iPad Air ;)

Was to be expected as it's the same design and width as the original iPad Mini.

[pino]

It will be an Air with 8 GB RAM, getting today :D

[henners88]

It will be an Air with 8 GB RAM, getting today :D
I'd love a Mac Book Pro as my home laptop, but boy are they expensive. My wife has one from her work and the OS is lovely to use. A couple of years ago I asked my wife's cousin who is a programmer for Dell what he would recommend. I was hoping he'd get me a Dell laptop with employee discount, but he said if you want reliability, sound build quality and excellent customer service, buy a Mac. His wife has a Mac and obviously all his stuff is Dell, but he really rates Apple's computers. Not being able to afford a Mac I bought a Dell Inspiron from Curry's, and I have to say in 2 years I've had to have it repaired twice. My previous Acer laptop lasted 3 and half years with no issues whatsoever. I've always used PC's primarily as they are cheaper and you can put hooky software on them easily, but if money was no object I'd get an Air or Pro. I would be able to do CAD on it , however I rarely use my home PC for that these days as I have a laptop for work too. Its what you prefer at the end of the day and I know there are a few guys here who are very into their PC building and have a totally different set of preferences again. Some of the conversations here go way over my head when talking about technical specifications.

With a market so big, I don't think there is any right or wrong answer with what computer is better for you. Its the same with mobile phones even if we often have the 'my phone is better than your phone' discussions. I don't think you can go much wrong with either a PC or a Mac. :)

[Mark]

It will be an Air with 8 GB RAM, getting today :D

Nice nice :D What storage?

[pino]

256 GB :D

[BleAivano]

With a market so big, I don't think there is any right or wrong answer with what computer is better for you. Its the same with mobile phones even if we often have the 'my phone is better than your phone' discussions. I don't think you can go much wrong with either a PC or a Mac. :)

I wish people would stop describing as an own type of computer because it's not. :angryfire :p
A Macinstosh IS a PC just as much as a computer with a Windows or Linux. :dork:

[henners88]

With a market so big, I don't think there is any right or wrong answer with what computer is better for you. Its the same with mobile phones even if we often have the 'my phone is better than your phone' discussions. I don't think you can go much wrong with either a PC or a Mac. :)

I wish people would stop describing as an own type of computer because it's not. :angryfire :p
A Macinstosh IS a PC just as much as a computer with a Windows or Linux. :dork:
Life is too short to get hung up on technicalities!

God it annoys me when people say they are going to Hoover the house. Its a vacuum cleaner, Hoover is a brand!!! Ahhhhhh!! :angryfire :p

Sorry I grew up when the Mac vs PC debate of the 90's hit an all time high so the term 'PC' has stuck as a way of describing a Windows computer for me. I apologise in advance because I will keep referring to them as a PC. :)

[Mark]

I wish people would stop describing as an own type of computer because it's not. :angryfire :p
A Macinstosh IS a PC just as much as a computer with a Windows or Linux. :dork:

Have to disagree, the 'PC' is a shorthand for IBM-PC Compatible and has long been established as meaning a machine running a Microsoft operating system. You may describe a Mac as a PC if you want, but that's not the general usage of the term.

[BleAivano]

Have to disagree, the 'PC' is a shorthand for IBM-PC Compatible and has long been established as meaning a machine running a Microsoft operating system. You may describe a Mac as a PC if you want, but that's not the general usage of the term.

I disagree in return to some extent.

A PC is a (personal) computer that is designed to be able to use at home by regular people.
Unlike servers or main frame computers that is operated by expert staff.

Once upon a time there was some differences both regarding the hardware and the software.
Mac's were mostly used by advertising firms, graphic bureaus, Printing companies and etc.,
not so much be regular people.

Nowadays the difference between a MacBook and an Asus laptop is almost none.

Different OS and some minor aesthetic difference but if you like you can use Windows on
your MacBook and MacOs on the Asus since both uses the same hardware.

Both is used by regular people at home and by people who is at their work.

So I'll stick with my claim that a Mac is just as much a PC as a computer with Windows.

[henners88]

I think calling one a Mac and the other a PC saves confusion regardless of the historical links.

[Jag_Warrior]

I think calling one a Mac and the other a PC saves confusion regardless of the historical links.

Exactly. Since "PC" generally describes every variant of computer which generally just runs Windows and "Mac" describes (only) Apple products which run the Mac OS, it's simply a way to avoid confusion. Sure, the Mac is a personal computer. But if one wants to be broad about it, so are most tablets and even a great many phones these days.

[janneppi]

If PC's are Windows machines and Macs are Macs, what are Linux machines? Other than near extinct? :D

[henners88]

Geek computers? :p

[donKey jote]

tell me about it :dork:
I spent most of this weekend scouring log files and setting up rss feeds, iptables and fail2ban on my donkey pi, and I still can't putty to it from my work computer :dozey:

[Mark]

If PC's are Windows machines and Macs are Macs, what are Linux machines? Other than near extinct? :D

Linux is far from extinct. It dominates the server word. Just it's only us sysadmins that see it.

You post on this forum; you're using Linux.

[Mark]

My phone is showing occasional signs of age at the moment, but it's still going. I do research from time to time which one I would get if mine died.

Obviously having an iPhone 4S the logical progression is another iPhone. But they haven't exactly changed much since the iPhone 4 came out, but the biggest issue against the competition is price. Even on a 2 year contract you're still talking an upfront fee of about £300 when most Android phones for the same tarrif have no upfront fee.

At the moment if I had to buy a new phone tomorrow it might be the Google Nexus 5.

[henners88]

My phone is showing occasional signs of age at the moment, but it's still going. I do research from time to time which one I would get if mine died.

Obviously having an iPhone 4S the logical progression is another iPhone. But they haven't exactly changed much since the iPhone 4 came out, but the biggest issue against the competition is price. Even on a 2 year contract you're still talking an upfront fee of about £300 when most Android phones for the same tarrif have no upfront fee.

At the moment if I had to buy a new phone tomorrow it might be the Google Nexus 5.
Just buy it Mark. I feel you have already convinced yourself you want to jump to Android and now is the best time as you have seen the phone you like anyway. I had a play with a Nexus 5 recently and it still wasn't enough to tempt me back to Android, but we all have different tastes when it comes to refinement and you being a techy sort of person will probably enjoy it a lot.

[Mark]

There's no point at the moment; as my iPhone is perfectly functional. I'm just like to keep to do date on things.

[henners88]

The rumour mill suggests next year we may see 2 iPhone releases again, this time a 4.7" version and a 5.5". Not sure how I feel about them going that big as I like a 4"screen for my pocket.

[airshifter]

I think the situation Mark is in is one of the few flaws in the Apple sales model. There are those ready for a possible change, but not ready for a change large enough to warrant the price of the next level higher of iPhone. Most of the Android phones have options at more price levels, and with the lower price in many cases buyers will upgrade more often.

Not sure how big I will look at next phone. My current is about 4" I think, but I realized that it's really almost already to big for a front pocket (to avoid sitting on it) but room to spare for a back pocket. Lots of good choices out there as always.

[Koz]

The rumour mill suggests next year we may see 2 iPhone releases again, this time a 4.7" version and a 5.5". Not sure how I feel about them going that big as I like a 4"screen for my pocket.

I wager 3.

4" = 6C
4.7 = 6
5.5 = 6S

[Valve Bounce]

This will totally freak Daniel out. I have inherited the Toshiba Ultrabook with i7 core and a mini ipad with 64 gig memory from my dearest. I am now charging my new Samsung SIII with 4G, and I will get my 10 years old grandson to install Candy Crush plus whatever games he considers I need on the SIII also. Thenwith Candy Crush installed on all 3 devices, (as well as my own PC downstairs) I will have all the lives I need and be able to cheat my way well into the hundreds (games). :D

[airshifter]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-jury-reaches-verdict-apple-195709961.html

This will give the Apple haters something to be upset about for a while. It might even add a couple names of forum members to the tasteless contest of who might die this year. Heart attacks and stress take some people early in life.

[Koz]

Looks like the new iPads have severe issues:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1672632

[henners88]

Glad I didn't buy the Mini :D

[Mark]

Guy in the office has got a Samsung Galaxy Note 3 - looks like an awesome phone, but way way too big for most practical purposes.

[harsha]

Guy in the office has got a Samsung Galaxy Note 3 - looks like an awesome phone, but way way too big for most practical purposes.

I second that. It's just too bulky. I don't know how i can probably use a phone with a screen > 6 inches. 5 inches would be the ideal size and would fit in my pockets too.

[henners88]

The Galaxy Note is designed for people who either carry the device in a bag or in deep suit pockets as far as I am concerned. I've had people say its not too big and I'd get used to it, yet when I stick it in my pocket there is no escaping the fact it is huge! They serve a purpose, but there is a reason you don't see that many about.

[harsha]

The Galaxy Note is designed for people who either carry the device in a bag or in deep suit pockets as far as I am concerned. I've had people say its not too big and I'd get used to it, yet when I stick it in my pocket there is no escaping the fact it is huge! They serve a purpose, but there is a reason you don't see that many about.

not to mention i'd have to use both my hands to operate the phone. One for holding the phone and the other to operate it,with smaller phones , I can operate the touch pad with one hand more easily.

[Jag_Warrior]

The Galaxy Note is designed for people who either carry the device in a bag or in deep suit pockets as far as I am concerned. I've had people say its not too big and I'd get used to it, yet when I stick it in my pocket there is no escaping the fact it is huge! They serve a purpose, but there is a reason you don't see that many about.

David Bryne's Giant Suit finally has a purpose.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgvyrrKD6r1qawd7oo1_400.gif

[Mark]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26320552
Nokia (read: Microsoft) releasing an Android phone range! Perplexing.

[BleAivano]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26320552
Nokia (read: Microsoft) releasing an Android phone range! Perplexing.

Even Apple's Steve Wozniak have said in an interview:


“There’s nothing that would keep Apple out of the Android market as a secondary phone market,”
said Wozniak–who, it should be noted, is no longer involved in the day-to-day workings of the company.
“We could compete very well. People like the precious looks of stylings and manufacturing that we do in
our product compared to the other Android offerings. We could play in two arenas at the same time.

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/02/woz-interview/


However this is probably unlikely but you never know.

[Mark]

And Apple replied to that saying they had 'no plans' to make an Android phone.

It's just surprising that (effectively) Microsoft would seek to undermind their own operating system, although it makes sense purely from a Nokia standpoint.

[henners88]

Still strange though when you consider Nokia is owned by Microsoft. You'd think they would be putting all efforts into making Windows Mobile work rather than entering the already competitive Android group of manufacturers.