Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

**Fast Eddie WRC** · 15th April 2020, 19:25

Originally Posted by AnttiL

Length of an event - now 300-350 km, then 500-1000 km (and then the African rallies were something else)

Since the Group B era of the 1980s, it had been protocol for the top teams to assign each car its own spotter helicopter, due to the event’s vast uncontrolled stages. It was “hideously expensive,” according to Paul Howarth, the Subaru team’s former operations director, “but bloody exciting.”

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/f...s-safari-rally

**Rally Power** · 15th April 2020, 20:03

Originally Posted by doubled1978

Yes, it wasn’t only 4wd that they changed the sport with....

Yep, 4WD is Audi lasting legacy to rallysport but they also managed to reshape WRC marketing value, at least for a couple of decades. For sure Dr Piëch would improve Audi results with or without the WRC but the Quattro rally programme was vital to upgrade the brand image, far beyond the basic ‘race on Sunday, sell on Monday’.

Btw, Peugeot with the 205 and later Subaru with the Impreza or Mitsubishi with the Lancer also successfully upgraded their brands image with the help of a serious WRC effort, but with so many changes since the late 90's is the series still challenging enough to provide manus that kind of evolution?

**dimviii** · 16th April 2020, 11:54

Colin Clark’s top 10 rallying memories: A passion is born

Our voice of rally begins his countdown with his first visit stageside, as he unknowingly befriended a Monte legend

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/colin...ssion-is-born/

**Fast Eddie WRC** · 16th April 2020, 15:37

Volkswagen Motorsport (+ Ogier/Ingrassia) also raised the level of professionalism when they joined the WRC in 2013.

I dont think it made much of a difference to their image or sales though... and certainly not enough to offset the following diesel-gate crisis.

**doubled1978** · 16th April 2020, 19:55

Originally Posted by Rally Power

Yep, 4WD is Audi lasting legacy to rallysport but they also managed to reshape WRC marketing value, at least for a couple of decades. For sure Dr Piëch would improve Audi results with or without the WRC but the Quattro rally programme was vital to upgrade the brand image, far beyond the basic ‘race on Sunday, sell on Monday’.

Btw, Peugeot with the 205 and later Subaru with the Impreza or Mitsubishi with the Lancer also successfully upgraded their brands image with the help of a serious WRC effort, but with so many changes since the late 90's is the series still challenging enough to provide manus that kind of evolution?

I’m not sure a brand can come and expect the amazing impact that the Audi & Subaru programmes in particular had, those two in particular had incredible results to their brand image. In fairness to Audi, after rallying they used motorsport very well to promote the brand, the USA adventure of Pikes Peak, Trans-Am and IMSA did great things for them in America, and they came home to Germany and gave Merc and BMW a hiding in the DTM with that V8 Limo DTM car, went to Super Touring and dominated with the A4, and then the Le Mans programme gave them so many technical opportunities and successes.
Subaru on the other hand, did nothing after rally and now I’d struggle to know what they sell.
Oddly if the Puma thing is true for Ford, actually that class of car (small SUV) could provide the WRC with a lifeline as they sell in huge numbers, and they are suited to the look of a rally car rather than circuit cars.
I guess the reasons for a brand to get involved in any motorsport differ relative to what they trying to achieve, as has been said on this forum before Opel feels like a brand that needs a programme of some sort to help it get on the map again, and rallying is probably a good fit for the in terms of the brands they would competing with.
I still can’t get my head around Renault in F1 really, despite the fact they have at times been very successful, the brand feels out of place with Ferrari and Mercedes and even Honda, and now they don’t win anything how they justify it is beyond me.

**AnttiL** · 16th April 2020, 20:36

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Volkswagen Motorsport (+ Ogier/Ingrassia) also raised the level of professionalism when they joined the WRC in 2013.

How? Or did they just do it better? I don't believe they were able to use more resources than in the 80's and 90's or even the 00's.

**Rally Power** · 16th April 2020, 20:53

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Volkswagen Motorsport (+ Ogier/Ingrassia) also raised the level of professionalism when they joined the WRC in 2013.
I dont think it made much of a difference to their image or sales though... and certainly not enough to offset the following diesel-gate crisis.

The question is about to know if the WRC is still relevant to change the brands image, like it happened with Audi, Peugeot, Subaru and Mitsubishi in the past.

That doesn’t mean that image revamping should be the main purpose for all manus entering the WRC, as clearly it wasn’t in VW case.

Btw, here’s a nice piece about the Quattro origin and aims, by Wheels magazine: https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/quattro-history

and Prodrive study on Subaru's WRC effect:
https://www.prodrive.com/motorsport-casestudies-swrt/

**Fast Eddie WRC** · 16th April 2020, 22:53

Originally Posted by AnttiL

How? Or did they just do it better? I don't believe they were able to use more resources than in the 80's and 90's or even the 00's.

We dont know their spending but VW certainly had plenty of money. But whatever it was, they came in and utterly dominated the existing WRC teams.

To me i wasnt just money though, but rather that their greater professionalism = Better. And as stated Ogier/Ingrassia had a lot to do with that too.

They gave Ogier a year in the Fabia to prepare; their Polo WRC was a tank as well as fast; Ogier drove the team and engineers to excel; and Jost Capito had huge experience and left no stone unturned or anything to chance. VW Motorsport was a machine !

**dimviii** · 17th April 2020, 07:01

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

We dont know their spending but VW certainly had plenty of money. But whatever it was, they came in and utterly dominated the existing WRC teams.

To me i wasnt just money though, but rather that their greater professionalism = Better. And as stated Ogier/Ingrassia had a lot to do with that too.

They gave Ogier a year in the Fabia to prepare; their Polo WRC was a tank as well as fast; Ogier drove the team and engineers to excel; and Jost Capito had huge experience and left no stone unturned or anything to chance. VW Motorsport was a machine !

all of these, Citroen did for a decade.Nothing new.Plenty of money,proffesionalism,cars fast out of the box,dominating etc

**AnttiL** · 17th April 2020, 07:14

The point is that what Audi did was throw a lot of money and put up a whole department in the factory for developing the rally car, to use it as a marketing tool. Since then teams like Lancia, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Peugeot, Citroen and VW have also been successful in their own eras, but they haven't upped the level of effort as much as Audi did. VW was just a lot better than the other teams during their era, and they had the best driver of the era (same as Citroen the decade before). The rules alone controlled better how much you could do development during a homologation period and what are the limits of a car whereas in the group B days it was quite the Wild West.