WRC mainclass from 2027

[doubled1978]

Ok if an entry list with two just big names, Suninen and Sesks is a massive competition for you then you have really low standards.

And why you guys say every time “go and watch it”
I have been to plenty of rallies and watched also plenty in my life and I don’t get it how this one rally now suddenly should change my view.

And about Vaher, I’m telling ya he is the real deal

Your man Vaher looks good. First time I have seen him drive, very impressive. Not just driving, but mental approach seems very calm.

[giu canbera]

Well folks, it is what it is. Its R5s from now on - and the "next gen" of cars (WRC27) are also R5s but on tube frames. Cant we just move on?

[WRCStan]

Well folks, it is what it is. Its R5s from now on - and the "next gen" of cars (WRC27) are also R5s but on tube frames. Cant we just move on?

Yep. Glad we settled everything. See you all at cheeserollingforums.com.

[deephouse]

The fact is that WRC27 (no matter the cost cap), won't probably attract new manufacturers. It's the promotion, coverage and the stories that hurt this sport. If that department would work properly, brands would invest millions no matter the cost. It just seems right now that next set of rules works, because 2 tuners are working on this new regulations, and Toyota. And M-Sport/Hyundai don't. It's also a very big stupidity and risk that they are delaying final decision on promoter rights (which I strongly believe that there is no one at all seriously interested), and final implement of rules. I mean when they will decide if it's better to delay everything that rush into doom.

[WRCStan]

Cant we just move on?

Apparently not.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Apparently not.

I said the same last year. None us us knows anything really and we should just wait and see when it's all finalised.

But 150 Pages later we're still speculating.

[WRCStan]

Just need a few more milestones and significant announcements for talking points.

Rumour spread by a Peruvian Instagram of a new constructor to announce at Rally Japan - next weekend.
Rumour of a European manufacturer to announce in June.
Rumour of the new promoter to announce at point of WMSC.

[saco0o]

as someone said on fb: "its r5 with some locals entering, seeing new teams building new cars over the next years, having mads trying scoring a podium here and there, sesks with budget to do the full season Vs. re-watching two toyotas vs neuville for the 9th time all over again".

this comment one or two months ago settled the score for me haha

[Ferranis]

And instead of two Toyotas vs Neuville sometimes, it will be Toyota vs Toyota all day, any day ^^

I tell you, we will miss the rare cases where Hyundai was competitive with Toyota next year

[saco0o]

nah, its going to be fun, dont worry

[doubled1978]

Your man Vaher looks good. First time I have seen him drive, very impressive. Not just driving, but mental approach seems very calm.

That aged well!!

Nevertheless, the kid looks a talent.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota reveals harsh reality behind new WRC car project.

Toyota has admitted that developing its new-generation WRC car for 2027 has proven far more challenging than many may have expected.

https://rallyjournal.com/toyota-reveals-harsh-reality-behind-new-wrc-car-project/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPMjc1MjU0 NjkyNTk4Mjc5AAEeVyHWcuCj1sjQ1yjskphem6U_YAFBDzWGAP N2YWAOgZ5-_ABamERPDPkqyNA_aem_F1gwIhyWqwBfMe_wMkDDhA

[Ferranis]

Toyota reveals harsh reality behind new WRC car project.

Toyota has admitted that developing its new-generation WRC car for 2027 has proven far more challenging than many may have expected.

https://rallyjournal.com/toyota-reveals-harsh-reality-behind-new-wrc-car-project/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPMjc1MjU0 NjkyNTk4Mjc5AAEeVyHWcuCj1sjQ1yjskphem6U_YAFBDzWGAP N2YWAOgZ5-_ABamERPDPkqyNA_aem_F1gwIhyWqwBfMe_wMkDDhA

Where is the description from? Maybe AI generated?

Since the article does not say that at all. It just says that they have lot's of work still todo, for example:

“In principle, we are happy with the progress, but at this stage we are still very far from being fully satisfied. That is completely normal at the moment.”

---

I missed that the article itself states the description right at the top, sorry. But them maybe they used AI, since again, the interview just does not say that

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Where is the description from? Maybe AI generated?

Since the article does not say that at all. It just says that they have lot's of work still todo, for example:

“In principle, we are happy with the progress, but at this stage we are still very far from being fully satisfied. That is completely normal at the moment.”

---

I missed that the article itself states the description right at the top, sorry. But them maybe they used AI, since again, the interview just does not say that

A recent (paywalled) Autosport article uses this headline and intro...

Why WRC 2027 car project is the “most difficult” Toyota has faced.

Developing a World Rally Championship car for the new 2027 technical regulations is the “most difficult” new car build Toyota has faced yet, according to technical director Tom Fowler.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/why-wrc-2027-car-project-is-the-most-difficult-toyota-has-faced/10822921/

[rallyfiend]

A recent (paywalled) Autosport article uses this headline and intro...

Why WRC 2027 car project is the “most difficult” Toyota has faced.

Developing a World Rally Championship car for the new 2027 technical regulations is the “most difficult” new car build Toyota has faced yet, according to technical director Tom Fowler.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/why-wrc-2027-car-project-is-the-most-difficult-toyota-has-faced/10822921/

If true, that's not so positive for the proposed projects from Hansen and the Spanish.

On that topic, if those two other projects are wanting to start in 2027, wouldn't they want to have engine and transmission deals done by now.....?

[wyler]

Many of guys being in top wasn't supposed being there as their results did prove why were they there.

many? i'd be curios of that names!

it's all about context again.
u can say mcerlean (but is not far from top 10 of erc)
armstrong was 2nd erc last year.
the others are already above that level...

[wyler]

If true, that's not so positive for the proposed projects from Hansen and the Spanish.

On that topic, if those two other projects are wanting to start in 2027, wouldn't they want to have engine and transmission deals done by now.....?

rally one should already have skoda.

[Ferranis]

If true, that's not so positive for the proposed projects from Hansen and the Spanish.

On that topic, if those two other projects are wanting to start in 2027, wouldn't they want to have engine and transmission deals done by now.....?

It's in general pretty quiet. You would think that if you want to drive in 27, testing should have already started for you?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Mid-2027 has been mentioned a few times as the earliest the new cars will be seen (barring perhaps Toyota's).

I wouldn't be surprised if its 2028. There could even be a delay all-round and everyone using their Rally2 Cars next year.

[deephouse]

FIA should already delay everything on 2028 a few months ago, but they still stick their heads in the sand thinking it will all work out.

[denkimi]

I think the school of thought that we will have more competition next year due to more drivers having "equal" machienery will be quite disappointed. WRC1 drivers are in the WRC1 for a reason. The only thing hat will happen is that the gap between WRC1 and WRC2 is not that big on average
I think solberg has more than clearly shown that the wrc1 drivers are not always there because they are the best. I think there are a few drivers who can't get an wrc1 seat today but could be just as good as him.

A lot of talent gets wasted because there are no free seats.

But what I do think will be a big difference, is how much factory support drivers will get. On paper they are equal cars, but we all know they aren't.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This has been an issue for some time at M-Sport. Without full factory support the cars development has stalled. Even when they paid for top drivers like Breen and Tanak the car couldnt usually compete with the Toyota and Hyundai.

Next year may be the best chance for all talents to fight with the best in pretty equal machinery, before more WRC27 development happens. Skoda, Toyota and Lancia Rally2 drivers cars will be very capable.

[deephouse]

That's why if Ford will not support them, they should start looking elsewhere. When it will be enough to give them free marketing?

[PLuto]

erc and wrc are way apart. + this may be a good (or massive) competition for the erc level, but it doesn't mean wrc will be the same. wrc level is way ahead i fear.

This is a joke?

[PLuto]

I think the school of thought that we will have more competition next year due to more drivers having "equal" machienery will be quite disappointed. WRC1 drivers are in the WRC1 for a reason. The only thing hat will happen is that the gap between WRC1 and WRC2 is not that big on average

Some drivers are in WRC1 because of quality, some of them are there because of money. I am sure that half of the WRC1 drivers will have problems to be in top places with Rally2 machinery...

[PLuto]

Well folks, it is what it is. Its R5s from now on - and the "next gen" of cars (WRC27) are also R5s but on tube frames. Cant we just move on?

Thanks god not only on tube frames, as it looks like...

[Ferranis]

Some drivers are in WRC1 because of quality, some of them are there because of money. I am sure that half of the WRC1 drivers will have problems to be in top places with Rally2 machinery...

I can only think of the M-Sport drivers and even there Armstrong was good in a Rally2 car.

Who do you think would be overshadowed by WRC2 drivers?

[denkimi]

I can only think of the M-Sport drivers and even there Armstrong was good in a Rally2 car.

Who do you think would be overshadowed by WRC2 drivers?
Sordo, paddon, pajari, katsuta, mcerlean. Maybe even evans and fourmaux.

[trykmann]

Sordo, paddon, pajari, katsuta, mcerlean. Maybe even evans and fourmaux.

Oliver is a good comparison. There were other drivers in WRC2, who were able to compete with him.

[denkimi]

Oliver is a good comparison. There were other drivers in WRC2, who were able to compete with him.
Indeed. That's why I think the likes of gryazin or rossel could be just as fast as he is, and thus better than half of current wrc1 drivers.

Or maybe not, we will never know untill we have more available seats in the top cars.

[flat_right]

Sordo, paddon, pajari, katsuta, mcerlean. Maybe even evans and fourmaux.

To put Evans and Fourmaux, even with a 'maybe', on this list is a pure insult to their talent.

[wyler]

This is a joke?

no. it's not.
i don't see many erc drivers smashing wrc2 competition (don't even mention wrc), while i see the opposite: medium tier wrc (and wrc2) drivers winning erc race and championship (suninen, sesks, paddon,...)

[wyler]

Some drivers are in WRC1 because of quality, some of them are there because of money. I am sure that half of the WRC1 drivers will have problems to be in top places with Rally2 machinery...

i just see the opposite, sorry, like this massively competitive ERC Sweden - wrc mid tier drivers constantly in top3/5.

[wyler]

Sordo, paddon, pajari, katsuta, mcerlean. Maybe even evans and fourmaux.

paddon won the last erc championshid he did...

[PLuto]

i just see the opposite, sorry, like this massively competitive ERC Sweden - wrc mid tier drivers constantly in top3/5.

Problem is that there are drivers which are fast on specific type of surface. Drivers like Sesks or Heikkilä are very fast on fast gravel events and also in WRC/WRC2 they are able to fight for podium. But on other surfaces they are almost nowhere, especially on tarmac...

[Ferranis]

The consistency of WRC1 drivers is underappreciated. Some WRC2 may be higher placed on a single day and perhaps a single rally, but certainly not in a full season

[wyler]

Problem is that there are drivers which are fast on specific type of surface. Drivers like Sesks or Heikkilä are very fast on fast gravel events and also in WRC/WRC2 they are able to fight for podium. But on other surfaces they are almost nowhere, especially on tarmac...

agreed!
That, to me, is another reason why wrc is on a different level. being specialist (as your appropriate sesks example) is not enough to be a stable contestant. add that wrc can have more and more structured seat time, and development on cars and drivers/team. that make a divide. i'm not so optimistic about the levelling with the new cars. for the competition's sake, I wouldn't be unhappy to be wrong!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Indeed. That's why I think the likes of gryazin or rossel could be just as fast as he is, and thus better than half of current wrc1 drivers.

Or maybe not, we will never know untill we have more available seats in the top cars.

We will know... next year ! :)

[PLuto]

The consistency of WRC1 drivers is underappreciated. Some WRC2 may be higher placed on a single day and perhaps a single rally, but certainly not in a full season

For me some drivers in WRC (not only WRC1, but also some in WRC2) are overrated. That you are doing WRC does not automatically mean that you are better driver than drivers doing national championships or ERC. But more and more I see that there is not so many drivers who can be fast on all surfaces or types of stages. We have more and more specialists to some specific surfaces, but not so many universal drivers which are able to be fast (and in finish) on all surfaces.

[Ferranis]

For me some drivers in WRC (not only WRC1, but also some in WRC2) are overrated. That you are doing WRC does not automatically mean that you are better driver than drivers doing national championships or ERC. But more and more I see that there is not so many drivers who can be fast on all surfaces or types of stages. We have more and more specialists to some specific surfaces, but not so many universal drivers which are able to be fast (and in finish) on all surfaces.

I would go so far to say that with the exception of the S-Rank drivers (Ogier, for example) the talent pool is not that deep in WRC1, comparatively.

But this is what you get when you have a series that needs massive (monetary) commitment without giving so much back.

Or in other words: The pool of potential F1 drivers, for example, is so much greater then the pool of potential WRC1 drivers. Netting you more S-Rank or A-Rank drivers as a result.

Where we differ though is our perception of WRC2, I personally think the pool is even shallower there than WRC2. But as it was said, we will see

[deephouse]

If the cars will be similar in performance, those who recently and those who drive Rally2 cars now or for several seasons already could have advantage over those who will drive WRC27 cars. I mean Toyota drivers will be sure in WRC27 cars, all those who are already there and maybe Tanak alongside. I simply don't see RMC and Prospeed picking up some current Hyundai drivers, since they couldn't afford them (except if Hyundai will leave) - that is a possible too if their Rally2 car will not be sorted out or show some good performance (I honestly think that this Rally2 campaign is just a patch on a wound before they will drop the gloves). Maybe someone from M-Sport, McErlean? But simply there is a lot of way better options and cheaper than Hyundai guys (and of course all those who don't have a budget or desire to pay for driving) - Suninen, Mikkelsen...

[Ferranis]

I am seriously curious who will drive for the new tuners and how (meaning payed by the team or pay the team).

Since they will have so much catching up todo, it will take a full season most likely to even be reliable

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rumour from tuttorallyofficial

WRC – Subaru thinking about returning to the BRZ WRC27

The starting base for this comeback already exists and is concrete: the Subaru Boxer Rally Spec. Z, competition version of the BRZ developed directly by the Sports Vehicle Planning Office of the Japanese brand. The world of rally prepares to welcome back one of its historical protagonists. Subaru will reportedly be planning a return to the World Rally Championship (WRC), with an official announcement due shortly after Rally Japan....

https://www.tuttorally.news/wrc-subaru-pensa-al-ritorno-nel-con-la-brz-wrc27/

[SubaruNorway]

I am seriously curious who will drive for the new tuners and how (meaning payed by the team or pay the team).

Since they will have so much catching up todo, it will take a full season most likely to even be reliable

Robert Kolcak once he wins the lawsuit against the FIA....?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If the cars will be similar in performance, those who recently and those who drive Rally2 cars now or for several seasons already could have advantage over those who will drive WRC27 cars. I mean Toyota drivers will be sure in WRC27 cars, all those who are already there and maybe Tanak alongside. I simply don't see RMC and Prospeed picking up some current Hyundai drivers, since they couldn't afford them (except if Hyundai will leave) - that is a possible too if their Rally2 car will not be sorted out or show some good performance (I honestly think that this Rally2 campaign is just a patch on a wound before they will drop the gloves). Maybe someone from M-Sport, McErlean? But simply there is a lot of way better options and cheaper than Hyundai guys (and of course all those who don't have a budget or desire to pay for driving) - Suninen, Mikkelsen...

Hayden Paddon and Gregoire Munster will be driving 2026 Ypres Rally in Hyundai i20 Rally2 machines. Maybe they could be the entries for 'Hyundai' in WRC 2027 as I cant see them paying for Neuville and Fourmaux to drive that old car.

[deephouse]

Rumour from tuttorallyofficial

WRC – Subaru thinking about returning to the BRZ WRC27

The starting base for this comeback already exists and is concrete: the Subaru Boxer Rally Spec. Z, competition version of the BRZ developed directly by the Sports Vehicle Planning Office of the Japanese brand. The world of rally prepares to welcome back one of its historical protagonists. Subaru will reportedly be planning a return to the World Rally Championship (WRC), with an official announcement due shortly after Rally Japan....

https://www.tuttorally.news/wrc-subaru-pensa-al-ritorno-nel-con-la-brz-wrc27/

I was digging on ChatGPT last time when rumours/news came that in Rally Japan new constructor will annoumce their interest. I don't have any pro plan there, I was just asking that service if it could tell me who it will be. And after some serious questions it give me Subaru. I didn't take it seriously since ChatGPT free plan like to give you utterly stupid and completely wrong answers lately.


Hayden Paddon and Gregoire Munster will be driving 2026 Ypres Rally in Hyundai i20 Rally2 machines. Maybe they could be the entries for 'Hyundai' in WRC 2027 as I cant see them paying for Neuville and Fourmaux to drive that old car.

If Hyundai will aim at titles even in Rally2 car, they would want to have Neuville and Fourmaux there, of course Paddon too, but Munster, gosh, he is unreliable, slow and untalented. There is like 30 drivers from their last list that could do way better even if they would drive on half power. Sorry but it's true.

For driver's point of view. If there will not be any other option (as it's strong possibility). Toyota have already too crowded park, RMC and Prospeed doesn't offer what those two drivers want - straight attack on titles and not starting from scratch, M-Sport will have the same situation, except with even less money and even weaker and older car, all others which may potentialy sign up will be too late to join the party.

[Ferranis]

Neuville maybe retirement? Honestly as a world champion I would not drive for Hyundai in a Rally2 car. It is embarrassing.

And for Munster, not to be mean, but they are getting the driver they deserve

[denkimi]

Hayden Paddon and Gregoire Munster will be driving 2026 Ypres Rally in Hyundai i20 Rally2 machines. Maybe they could be the entries for 'Hyundai' in WRC 2027 as I cant see them paying for Neuville and Fourmaux to drive that old car.
Grégoire is just driving the cars of his dad bernard. And paddon is probably partially paid by the organisation to attract visitors.

Neither will have anything to do with whatever Hyundai is planning in the wrc.

[WRCStan]

Rumour from tuttorallyofficial

WRC – Subaru thinking about returning to the BRZ WRC27

The starting base for this comeback already exists and is concrete: the Subaru Boxer Rally Spec. Z, competition version of the BRZ developed directly by the Sports Vehicle Planning Office of the Japanese brand. The world of rally prepares to welcome back one of its historical protagonists. Subaru will reportedly be planning a return to the World Rally Championship (WRC), with an official announcement due shortly after Rally Japan....

https://www.tuttorally.news/wrc-subaru-pensa-al-ritorno-nel-con-la-brz-wrc27/

Do you know what? I'll buy this.

But it'll be as far as a Subaru shape and branding on a Gazoo car. Is it even this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkeC5ySd_Hs) if not a Celica?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

For those that think watching Rally2 Cars will be boring...

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DYwt_DnNx2Y/?igsh=a3hxYXpwenIxZGY=

[Ferranis]

Compared to this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJS9YiEyIGQ

well ^^

(2017 super fan, can't help it)

[wyler]

same tuttosport italy media said that the new promoter "boullier group" signed the agreement.

https://www.tuttorally.news/nuovo-promoter-wrc-ce-la-firma/

[WRCStan]

I am seriously curious who will drive for the new tuners and how (meaning payed by the team or pay the team).

Don't rule out the promoter.

[240RS]

Talk emanating from Estonia is that Ford have given M-Sport the green light to build a WRC27 version based on either the Kuga or Mustang.

We can only hope.

https://www.instagram.com/wrc_memes?igsh=cGJncndza2tiaWMw

[archie106]

Talk emanating from Estonia is that Ford have given M-Sport the green light to build a WRC27 version based on either the Kuga or Mustang.

We can only hope.

https://www.instagram.com/wrc_memes?igsh=cGJncndza2tiaWMw

The Mustang would be great.

However I suspect that those "sources" in the post linked are not credible.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ford Europe still trading on their rally heritage with new cars driving dynamics. Maybe a slight chance this points to a rally future...

"While Renault will produce the two EVs and they will feature the French firm’s proven technology and powertrains, they won’t simply be badge-engineered exercises, with Ford setting the parameters for styling and driving dynamics.

Notably, Ford has now said they will feature "rally-bred design language", hinting that they will be focused on the sportier end of the market."

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-launch-five-rally-bred-cars-europe-2029

[Ferranis]

Rally Japan really shows again how boring the Rally2s are for me. They seem to crawl through those low speed stages, comparatively

[PLuto]

Rally Japan really shows again how boring the Rally2s are for me. They seem to crawl through those low speed stages, comparatively

If you compare it with Rally1, then of course. If there will be no comparison and there will be 20+ Rally2 cars with good drivers, it can be different...

[SubaruNorway]

An event like Caradigion or anything in Ireland is much more suited to a Rally2 than Canarias and Japan

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The new rallying era is here and it comes with a 'made in Spain' stamp 🇪🇸🏁

We launch the WRT Rally1 Spain project with a clear goal: @OfficialWRC 2027. A challenge born alongside @RMCMotorsport & @RFEdeA.

Very soon we will reveal what’s under the covers.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJzOOqXWYAETDs1?format=jpg&name=small

[deephouse]

If the shape will be the same, it look like some caravan car

[WRCStan]

Everything YOU NEED To Know About Spain’s WRC Rally1 Project - https://youtu.be/l74yS8dqcQ0

[saco0o]

im not paying much attention to these news but someone said - as a joke - that this is a cupra built on top of the polo r5 the same way the lancia is a lancia built on top of the c3 r5 haha.

[SubaruNorway]

im not paying much attention to these news but someone said - as a joke - that this is a cupra built on top of the polo r5 the same way the lancia is a lancia built on top of the c3 r5 haha.

And the Cupra again seems to be basically the same VW MEB platform as Ford uses for the Explorer and Capri

[Andre Oliveira]

How many times is need to write that the Lancia is not a C3 based? C3 is other platform. The only thing developed from C3 (apart know-how of Citroën/Stellantis) is the engine.

[Ferranis]

I really wonder what those tuners expect and how they finance themselves. This is no dig against them, but I just don't see how they can be competitive and finance themselves long term

[wyler]

I really wonder what those tuners expect and how they finance themselves. This is no dig against them, but I just don't see how they can be competitive and finance themselves long term

the horizon is rally2 end of homologation. around 2030 there will be need for new cars for all regional rally.

[TWRC]

How many times is need to write that the Lancia is not a C3 based? C3 is other platform. The only thing developed from C3 (apart know-how of Citroën/Stellantis) is the engine.

+ some general things (transmission, suspension layout) are also based on C3 phylosophy and experience with it

[Gustav Andel]

How many times is need to write that the Lancia is not a C3 based? C3 is other platform. The only thing developed from C3 (apart know-how of Citroën/Stellantis) is the engine.

I listened to a podcast with Vaclav Pech, who drives a C3 in Czechia. He said that when they went to look at the car, no one made a secret of it. The only significant difference he mentioned was a 2 cm shorter wheelbase and a few lightweight components on the chassis.

[Sal yet again]

For some strange reason a reminder of another short lived "formula" from the FIA popped into one of my feeds yesterday. I know this was supposed to be production car based however feels like a portent of things to come in some ways:

https://www.oreca.com/en/manufacturer/fia-r4-concept/

[Ferranis]

the horizon is rally2 end of homologation. around 2030 there will be need for new cars for all regional rally.

Future is hard to predict, but I already smell a homologation extension. 2030 is practically right around the corner

[WRCStan]

Future is hard to predict, but I already smell a homologation extension. 2030 is practically right around the corner

Without a doubt, but eligibility is a different conversation.

[Ferranis]

Without a doubt, but eligibility is a different conversation.

Indeed, they would want to phase out the Rally2 somehow, but how and when will be the big question

[wyler]

Future is hard to predict, but I already smell a homologation extension. 2030 is practically right around the corner

true, but that's the right time if someone thinks to take advantage of the new regs.

[deephouse]

As I said earlier. wRC27 have an equal chance of failing as succeding. The thing is that we will see. If the rules will be a hit, then sure they won't extend Rally2, but if it will fail, Rally2 cars will live on... Except if FIA will somehow kill both categories, which I wouldn't rule out completely regarding their reputation dealing with our beloved sport.

[SubaruNorway]

The more and more stuff i see being posted these days, i think WRC27 is the biggest corruption deal in the WRC

[focus206]

The more and more stuff i see being posted these days, i think WRC27 is the biggest corruption deal in the WRC

What do you mean?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Seems Wheatley did speak (to Autohebdo) about the i20 Rally2 and development by their customer team.

https://rallyjournal.com/hyundai-leaves-door-open-to-major-wrc-strategy-shift/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPMjc1MjU0 NjkyNTk4Mjc5AAEeTf0wD8FB3ikUKxXFfJt6GBS1vUPMKSMF9d 7N7CNQcvdq2jA5K65MBQe2Lvs_aem_Wy5iXMHK6jWFF6rZ1HhV Ow

This could lead to them following the Skoda model.

"Under that model, Hyundai could concentrate on customer racing once the new regulations come into force, supplying cars to private teams and providing technical support without officially entering the championship as a manufacturer."

[rallyfiend]

Seems Wheatley did speak (to Autohebdo) about the i20 Rally2 and development by their customer team.

https://rallyjournal.com/hyundai-leaves-door-open-to-major-wrc-strategy-shift/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPMjc1MjU0 NjkyNTk4Mjc5AAEeTf0wD8FB3ikUKxXFfJt6GBS1vUPMKSMF9d 7N7CNQcvdq2jA5K65MBQe2Lvs_aem_Wy5iXMHK6jWFF6rZ1HhV Ow

This could lead to them following the Skoda model.

"Under that model, Hyundai could concentrate on customer racing once the new regulations come into force, supplying cars to private teams and providing technical support without officially entering the championship as a manufacturer."

Unlike in WRC2, I suspect if Hyundai doesn't enter as a manufacturer ('constructor') then their cars may not be eligible for whatever the 'top class' is called when they merge WRC27 and Rally2.....

[deephouse]

I think we are at this stage that nobody even cares if they stay or go. Oh right, tbey are not there yet 🙈

[Ferranis]

I think we are at this stage that nobody even cares if they stay or go. Oh right, tbey are not there yet ��

Hope they go. It's quite frankly embarrassing for a manufacturer, that is for years now in the top class, to not turn up in a car with the latest regulations next year.

WRC needs full commitment and not whatever they are doing right now

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The question is also which privateer's are going to want to drive a Rally2 Hyundai anyway, when the Toyota, Skoda & Lancia are so much better.and newer ? Maybe just Paddon as he's the only one to get decent results with it (in the ERC).

[deephouse]

For how many years they are threatening of leaving and demanding their own rules? For how many years are Toyota and privateer M-Sport accepting their terms? They lost all my respect and I would rather see them gone than having manufacturer like that. I mean, they were a great addition to sport, to first bring some little challenge to VW, then Toyota and without them sport would probably die, but enough is enough. Being 14-15 years in sport and everytime missed being well prepared and then crying over everyone and everything else is a complete joke. I know that some teams can struggle in this sport but M-Sport is not crying that much even if they completely missed a target with their lineup lately, but their car is not that bad, with all those cents they are running the whole thing. I think that Hyundai should let someone else run and build their cars and they providing only money and they would do a lot better. And of course keep Cyril completely out of this sport

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier on the change to WRC27 Cars...

“That’s life. There’s always something new coming along. Right now, it looks like the first step with the next generation of cars will be a step backwards.”

“But I’m pretty sure things will continue to evolve, just as they always have.”

[Ferranis]

The question is also which privateer's are going to want to drive a Rally2 Hyundai anyway, when the Toyota, Skoda & Lancia are so much better.and newer ? Maybe just Paddon as he's the only one to get decent results with it (in the ERC).

Non existent market for their car. You would be stupid to buy a new Hyundai, since they did not prove any kind of long term commitment to the WRC, 2027 onward. They could be gone from 1 year to the next

[SubaruNorway]

What do you mean?

It would not be vise to mention names

[WRCStan]

It would not be vise to mention names

But what did you see posted?

[WRCStan]

Unlike in WRC2, I suspect if Hyundai doesn't enter as a manufacturer ('constructor') then their cars may not be eligible for whatever the 'top class' is called when they merge WRC27 and Rally2.....

Their cars will be fine for customers.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

BRC Racing Team who ran (& developed) Paddon's i20 Rally2 to 2x ERC Titles show the car isnt totally useless...

https://www.fiaerc.com/en/news/paddons-success-means-theres-a-new-erc-team-on-top

And you could say the same for MSport with the Fiesta Rally2 (in the hands of Jon Armstrong) last year.

I've read many times that the difference between all the cars isnt that huge and very often it's the driver that decides its results. Some are even still putting in top times in the Polo R5 that hasnt been developed for 5 years !

[WRCStan]

BRC Racing Team who ran (& developed) Paddon's i20 Rally2 to 2x ERC Titles show the car isnt totally useless...

https://www.fiaerc.com/en/news/paddons-success-means-theres-a-new-erc-team-on-top

Some people should be jumping for joy that this is realistic top class discussion.

[wyler]

Non existent market for their car. You would be stupid to buy a new Hyundai, since they did not prove any kind of long term commitment to the WRC, 2027 onward. They could be gone from 1 year to the next

what do you mean by "new"?

there will be no new rally2, as homologation of the class is finished. you can buy the same rally2 that is running now, with new upgrades if they'll do some. And Rally2s now are almost all on the same pace.

[Ferranis]

what do you mean by "new"?

there will be no new rally2, as homologation of the class is finished. you can buy the same rally2 that is running now, with new upgrades if they'll do some. And Rally2s now are almost all on the same pace.

New in the sense that the car is new for you. Customer which does not have a Hyundai Rally2 buying one, like you outlined

[denkimi]

The question is also which privateer's are going to want to drive a Rally2 Hyundai anyway, when the Toyota, Skoda & Lancia are so much better.and newer ? Maybe just Paddon as he's the only one to get decent results with it (in the ERC).
That will all depend on the price. There are a few rich people who don't care, but the biggest group of drivers are constrained by budget. If they can give good deals, they could sell cars.

[Kenneth]

there will be no new rally2, as homologation of the class is finished.

It's still open until the end of this year, isn't it? Hyundai customer racing boss even said that they are looking into doing that.

[deephouse]

It's still open until the end of this year, isn't it? Hyundai customer racing boss even said that they are looking into doing that.

They are not there yet and nor they won't be in future.

[wyler]

it is, end of the year. (but i don't know about anyone developing a new rally2, just people upgraing )

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That will all depend on the price. There are a few rich people who don't care, but the biggest group of drivers are constrained by budget. If they can give good deals, they could sell cars.

That's always been the case and people have chosen Toyota, Skoda, Citroen over Hyundai Rally2 and not because they are cheaper.

[deephouse]

https://www.autohebdof1.com/news/rally/wrc/The-WRC-issue-will-be-resolved-within-three-weeks.-Mohammed-bin-Sulayem--FIA-president--speaks-about-the-future-of-rallying..html

Should we believe him? I think not. At least it's something to read about since their promises (again) didn't come true at Rally Japan.

[SubaruNorway]

That's always been the case and people have chosen Toyota, Skoda, Citroen over Hyundai Rally2 and not because they are cheaper.

I just heard about this recently, Skoda has this price money you get in parts, that's quite a big thing

[WRCStan]

Should we believe him? I think not.

I think yes. It all needs to be rubber stamped at the WMSC meeting the week after next. Should hear a few announcements and news then.

Not sure it was anybody official saying anything about announcements in Japan?

[deephouse]

There was articles about new constructor/manufacturers comitting. And also before that promoter will be revealed in june. I read that they have this meeting at the end of this month, but by their usual timeline of course nothing will be revealed for some time. As I was saying, I honestly don't believe that anybody is even interested at the moment, for commiting or even being promoter. I will change my mind when it will be official. Too many teasing and promising were already out and all we got was a little information about two new constructors/privateers and Hyundai probably leaving for good... Oh, right and Toyota struggling to match the performance of their Rally2 car. The time is ticking and all I know that everything is too late, absolutely everything. The WRC27 season will be a mess.

[WRCStan]

The WRC27 season will be a mess.

It absolutely will and always was going to be. Eras don't switch overnight.

[Ferranis]

Middle of June and we have only seen the Toyota on track, no new promoter, no new (real) manufacturer. It's going great

[Fast Eddie WRC]

"The new cars will cost something like €350,000 each to produce, and running three cars will cost something like €25 to €30 million per year in the future; we won't be talking about €70 million per season anymore."

So how are these new Tuners going to afford this, or the drivers ? It seems like only all-in OEM's could.

[Ferranis]

"The new cars will cost something like €350,000 each to produce, and running three cars will cost something like €25 to €30 million per year in the future; we won't be talking about €70 million per season anymore."

So how are these new Tuners going to afford this, or the drivers ? It seems like only all-in OEM's could.

+ give it 2 years or so and we are back at 70 again (if 30 mill is even correct)

The type of car really does not matter at all to be frank. Toyota would spend 70 million on a Rally4 car.

Without a team cost cap - no dice for the other tuners / teams against Toyota

[Kenneth]

It absolutely will and always was going to be. Eras don't switch overnight.

Yeah everyone is praising endurance LMH/LMDh because there are 13 manus who built a car + 3 "tuners".

You know how many of them were there at the start of 2021? Just Toyota, plus Alpine with renamed LMP2 car.

[deephouse]

We are angry because every damn other discipline on FIA list have normal timelines, announcements, media exposures and at the end interest, but WRC is for them like some sort second class or not worthy sport... And all they do is teasing, promising, make things worse everytime and ruin absolutely everything. They think that they are raising interest with that approach, but they are achieving completely opposite effect. The only thing that is really unbeliveable is that countries do fight to have a spot on calendar. I would understand if this sport would really have glamourus status, but it's really strange.

[Kenneth]

I think it's just your feeling that other disciplines have normal timelines and announcements, it's all same

[deephouse]

I think it's just your feeling that other disciplines have normal timelines and announcements, it's all same

Formula 1:
1. The 2022 Ground-Effect Era:
-Initial Rules Locked: October 31, 2019 (Originally meant for 2021).
-The Pandemic Delay: In March 2020, the rules were officially pushed to 2022 due to COVID-19.
-Final Technical Text Locked: October 30, 2020 (Issue 2 of the final 2022 text).
-Lead Time: 15 months (from the adjusted lock date) or 26 months (from the original concept lock). Teams had a massive runway to design the ground-effect floors.

2. The 2026 Active-Aero Hybrid Era
-Power Unit Rules Locked: August 16, 2022.
-Chassis & Active Aero Locked: June 28, 2024 (Ratified by the WMSC).
-Lead Time for Engines: 43 months (3.5 years). Audi, Honda, and Ferrari had nearly 4 years to design the 50-50 electric/combustion units.
-Lead Time for Cars: 18 months (1.5 years). Teams knew exactly what size and weight the cars had to be by mid-2024.

WEC:
1. The Le Mans Hypercar (LMH) Regulations (Introduced 2021)
-Initial Concept Announcement: June 2018.
-Technical Regulations Locked: December 5, 2018 (Approved by the WMSC).
-Lead Time: 27 months (2.2 years). Toyota and Glickenhaus had over two full years of finalized rules before the category debuted at Spa in May 2021.

2. The LMDh Convergence Rule (Introduced 2023)
-Joint Prototype Framework Locked: September 18, 2020 (Main technical parameters finalized between IMSA and ACO).
-Lead Time: 28 months (2.3 years). Porsche, Cadillac, and BMW had over two years to build cars on standardized LMP2 chassis parts before the 2023 season opened.

3. The 2030 Next-Gen Hydrogen & Single-Platform Era
-Core Strategy Locked: June 12, 2026 (Official WMSC approval for the direction of the 2030 class platform).
-Lead Time: 42 months (3.5 years). WEC has already locked down the technical architecture parameters for the next decade, ensuring zero surprises for incoming manufacturers.

WRC:
1. The 2022 Rally1 Hybrid Transition: The final, granular specifications for the safety cells and spec hybrid wiring loops were still being tweaked and handed to teams as late as early 2021—leaving teams like M-Sport and Hyundai fewer than 10–11 months to build and crash-test their real-world 2022 chassis.

2. The 2025 Hybrid Backtrack: In February 2024, the FIA proposed completely removing the hybrid units for 2025. Following an immediate manufacturer mutiny, the FIA had to fully backtrack in June 2024, giving teams just 6 months of notices that the rules were staying exactly the same.

3. The 2027 Next-Gen Cycle: While the broader 2027 framework was conceptually approved, technical directors were left waiting past the traditional 2-year window for the precise aerodynamic volumes. This left them with roughly 14–16 months of true design time.

Summary of the Lead Time Pattern
WEC: 2.5 to 4 years of lead time.
F1: 1.5 years for chassis, 3.5 years for engines.
WRC: 1 year or less of finalized technical text (this part is confusing, as there was claims from teams, that the rules are still not locked or finalized).

Just for comparision, how are they treating WRC.

[Ferranis]

Desperation, that's what it is in WRC's case. The same flip-flopping desperation seen in WRX's downfall. And it will most likely end the same as with WRX

[Ferranis]

Desperation, that's what it is in WRC's case. The same flip-flopping desperation seen in WRX's downfall. And it will most likely end the same as with WRX

And that's what we lost because of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvQWt-SVx2k

The 17 were perfectly fine rules, they could have build on that. Even made them "cheaper" by restricting the materials used / removing the center diff, you name it. But no. Must by hybrids now with plug-in, which everyone who had sense called stupid even then

[WRCStan]

This is comparing apples with oranges.

[Kenneth]

Summary of the Lead Time Pattern
WEC: 2.5 to 4 years of lead time.
F1: 1.5 years for chassis, 3.5 years for engines.
WRC: 1 year or less of finalized technical text (this part is confusing, as there was claims from teams, that the rules are still not locked or finalized).

Just for comparision, how are they treating WRC.

On paper, maybe. But you could easily do the same with F1. Because the final regulations weren't set until end of 2025, things were changing every time.

Well you know when engine regulations were finalised? Last week, in middle of first season of 2026 regulations.

It isn't really different from WRC27, it just looks like that, because F1 ruleset is much much longer than WRC27.

Also the LMDh argument is also totaly wrong, you can easily spin it: Why it took so long when LMH started to race in 2021? And LMDh was allowed from 2022? It's huge fail that these teams haven't started until 2023, isn't it?

LMH ruleset also got finalilsed in May 2020, not even a year before start of the season. And it was no small change, it completely fucked up concepts of Peugeot and Aston Martin, which even led to Aston Martin scapping the whole project (AM eventualy entered in 2025, but it's private effort, basically M-Sport Ford WRC situation).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

+ give it 2 years or so and we are back at 70 again (if 30 mill is even correct)

The type of car really does not matter at all to be frank. Toyota would spend 70 million on a Rally4 car.

Without a team cost cap - no dice for the other tuners / teams against Toyota

The other thing is comparing with a Rally2 Car doing the WRC2 Championship.

Currently a Driver only has to raise budget for 7 Rounds.

To compete with the WRC27 Cars (as expected in 2027) they'll have to do the full Championship. No Tuner or Driver will be able to fund this, so we're back to needing Manufacturers who still arent interested or ready.

[Ferranis]

The other thing is comparing with a Rally2 Car doing the WRC2 Championship.

Currently a Driver only has to raise budget for 7 Rounds.

To compete with the WRC27 Cars (as expected in 2027) they'll have to do the full Championship. No Tuner or Driver will be able to fund this, so we're back to needing Manufacturers who still arent interested or ready.

As if "cheaper" cars are not the solution (that was tried many times in the past, there were many regulation changes that "promised" cheaper cars)... FIA is beyond help

[deephouse]

M-Sport, the one with least budget mentioned that the price of a car doesn't matter. And as history tell us, any manufacturer competing did made a car no matter the cost. Of course they pull out of cost saving before, but that was always the case in some eras. They pull out also because of restructuring the company, bad results... But almost all made it clear, that the return of investment is the issue here. Sure there is one way to cut costs of cars, but that numbers will increase as always. What they did or are doing with return of investment? In media, coverage and story department? Nothing. They put it behind the paywall, worsen the coverage, ban ocasional bad words or critics against some company/organizators/FIA, stuck in the 80s with this long liasions and rallies and also with this uncertainity.

[WRCStan]

Also, what about the big mega building that Hyundai have?

[Ferranis]

Also, what about the big mega building that Hyundai have?

Not expensive at all, it's the cars that are too expensive, you know ^^.

But well, FIA might suceed to get more M-Sport's ("Tuner", lol) for a while (until they go bust). Great success!

[WRCStan]

Let Bullard speak and more will be clear. If he fails to 'attract manufacturers' or more accurately, deliver entertainment in WRC, there won't be a WRC for long. If the FIA took poor decisions, let's hear the better proposal or what they should have done instead. Very easy to complain, and it's been 1600 repetitive posts of it in this thread.

[wyler]

Also, what about the big mega building that Hyundai have?

that's a drop in the ocean, and it's not mandatory to have...

[WRCStan]

that's a drop in the ocean, and it's not mandatory to have...

No shit! But some believe forcing them to get rid of it will solve all of life's problems.

[WRCStan]

The 17 were perfectly fine rules, they could have build on that.

I read this here and then watched Maximum Attack where the 17 cars are the cause of what's wrong with rallying today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1Ful9HnPkQ

[Ferranis]

I read this here and then watched Maximum Attack where the 17 cars are the cause of what's wrong with rallying today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1Ful9HnPkQ

I appreciate his oppinion. Mine is that no one will watch WRC when the cars are boring (like Rally2). Rally is one of many types of entertainment and they all compete with each other. Good luck convincing new people to watch Rally with Rally2 cars.

The problem was not the cars (same as like now), but the return of investment

[WRCStan]

I appreciate his oppinion. Mine is that no one will watch WRC when the cars are boring (like Rally2). Rally is one of many types of entertainment and they all compete with each other. Good luck convincing new people to watch Rally with Rally2 cars.

Wholeheartedly agree, and it would be hard retaining people even, as there won't be any live product to watch if it got to this point anyway. Only hardcore rallyists are paying £13/month to watch privateers such as Prokop who he mentioned.

[Ferranis]

Wholeheartedly agree, and it would be hard retaining people even, as there won't be any live product to watch if it got to this point anyway. Only hardcore rallyists are paying £13/month to watch privateers such as Prokop who he mentioned.

I have WRC+ since inception on a yearly plan. Next year I will go back to monthly since I do not know if I want to spend that kind of money to watch Rally2 and Rally2 equivalent cars driving around.

WRC should never be in a situation like this where a fan has this kind of thoughts.

Additionally, what is forgotten about WRC2017 is that it was the start of a huge boom of the WRC. That it was squandered and ultimately killed with the Hybrids is not the fault of the 17's

[WRCStan]

Hybrids were the fault of the green agenda, not because anybody in rally wanted it. Paris Agreement was signed in 2016, Todt's WEF luvvy Calderon barged in to a climate position at the broke FIA, Purpose Driven sustainability agenda demanded hybrid with sustainable fuel and according to the net zero 2030 timeline, wrc should have seen ev and H2 cars by now. Those people are a joke. Fortunately MbS fucked Calderon off, and Trump and Musk have shown that crowd to be the evil scum they are. Unfortunately, they still rule the roost in Brussels and London, which is where the majority of rally people and target manufacturers are.

[wyler]

No shit! But some believe forcing them to get rid of it will solve all of life's problems.

never heard that.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Also, what about the big mega building that Hyundai have?

And they wouldn't even let us fans in it to see the cars being serviced or see the drivers.

Its purely for corporate visitor use, I guess they're trying to squeeze some RoI from it.

[deephouse]

And they wouldn't even let us fans in it to see the cars being serviced or see the drivers.

Its purely for corporate visitor use, I guess they're trying to squeeze some RoI from it.

Do they have this superior technology, strategies and secrets that other teams can't copy them? Even if they would hide nothing no one from other teams would scout over them.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hybrids were the fault of the green agenda, not because anybody in rally wanted it. Paris Agreement was signed in 2016, Todt's WEF luvvy Calderon barged in to a climate position at the broke FIA, Purpose Driven sustainability agenda demanded hybrid with sustainable fuel and according to the net zero 2030 timeline, wrc should have seen ev and H2 cars by now. Those people are a joke. Fortunately MbS fucked Calderon off, and Trump and Musk have shown that crowd to be the evil scum they are. Unfortunately, they still rule the roost in Brussels and London, which is where the majority of rally people and target manufacturers are.

To be fair most people were onboard with the idea of the 2022 cars being hybrids as at the time most manufacturers were already using this in their road cars, or they were aiming to go full EV. Toyota were already there years ago & Hyundai for a while, plus Ford very soon and then full EV. To stay in WRC there seemed to be a requirement that they wanted hybrid cars.

Fans were also broadly understanding and the idea of a car with 400bhp plus another 100bhp electric boost seemed amazing.

Sadly it failed in the execution (unreliable) and the high cost to run and repair.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Aaaaanyway.... back to WRC27 ;)

Notes on the Toyota WRC27 prototypes by WRC Wings:

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2026/06/14/notes-from-the-toyota-wrc27-prototypes/

[Ferranis]

it would be immensely funny if WRC27 would accidentely kick off another aerodynamic race. Since the bodywork is not tied to any road car anymore.. why not take the most aerodynamic sensible one? ;-)