WRC mainclass from 2027

[Ferranis]

And even Toyota could be hard pressed to beat the existing Rally2s. Have the likes of Prospeed any hope ?

“We know the regulation is quite a big change and it’s now the job of the team to get everything to max out. We know it’s going to be a very, very big challenge to beat the Rally2 cars. It’s a big job,” Tänak told Dirtfish.

Hi all, finally able to register! Hope to have some good discussions about the WRC.

On topic: Toyota wants to continue to sell Rally2 and support their customers that already bought one. It would be unwise from them to hint that the WRC27 is the future of performance

[WRCStan]

Hi all, finally able to register! Hope to have some good discussions about the WRC.

On topic: Toyota wants to continue to sell Rally2 and support their customers that already bought one. It would be unwise from them to hint that the WRC27 is the future of performance

Maybe, at least until the new cars go on sale.

Welcome.

[Sulland]

If we for all practical purposes say that Rally2 is the new top class, since WRC1/27 will be a Toyota for a few years.

Then the role of the Rally3 class will become much more important for privateers in WRC and regional series, much due to cost. Will we then see that Stellantis and new manufacturers will construct a Rally3 car?
Close to 400 Rally3 cars buildt so far, they are now aprox as fast as a Rally2 car was a few years ago, for a lot less budget to buy, and to maintain.

[wyler]

Hi all, finally able to register! Hope to have some good discussions about the WRC.

On topic: Toyota wants to continue to sell Rally2 and support their customers that already bought one. It would be unwise from them to hint that the WRC27 is the future of performance

there's a rumor about toyota using the rally2 as officials while handing out the wrc27 to private teams (redgrey?) at least for a couple years...

[denkimi]

If we for all practical purposes say that Rally2 is the new top class, since WRC1/27 will be a Toyota for a few years.

Then the role of the Rally3 class will become much more important for privateers in WRC and regional series, much due to cost. Will we then see that Stellantis and new manufacturers will construct a Rally3 car?
Close to 400 Rally3 cars buildt so far, they are now aprox as fast as a Rally2 car was a few years ago, for a lot less budget to buy, and to maintain.
I doubt they are as fast as even the first r5 cars were. Maybe as fast as the s2000.

[PLuto]

I doubt they are as fast as even the first r5 cars were. Maybe as fast as the s2000.

And first R5 cars are on almost same price for running the car...

[Andre Oliveira]

Rumours about RMC build a WRC27 FIAT based.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HGhIbvJW4AEKW6J?format=jpg&name=small

[WRCStan]

If we for all practical purposes say that Rally2 is the new top class, since WRC1/27 will be a Toyota for a few years.

Then the role of the Rally3 class will become much more important for privateers in WRC and regional series, much due to cost. Will we then see that Stellantis and new manufacturers will construct a Rally3 car?
Close to 400 Rally3 cars buildt so far, they are now aprox as fast as a Rally2 car was a few years ago, for a lot less budget to buy, and to maintain.

Are you saying that the side-effects of making RC2/Rally2 the top category to specifically get larger top fields and locals v elites, davids v goliaths... is that the locals and davids will drop a tier?

[WRCStan]

there's a rumor about toyota using the rally2 as officials while handing out the wrc27 to private teams (redgrey?) at least for a couple years...

Possibly a Toyota team plays with the Toyota Yaris on the surface while Gazoo Racing do the WRC27 stuff, but then what's in it for Toyota? I can't see there being a championship for Rally2 manufacturers.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

there's a rumor about toyota using the rally2 as officials while handing out the wrc27 to private teams (redgrey?) at least for a couple years...

A good possibility when the existing Rally2 GR Yaris has had so much more time and development plus real rally experience.

It would also be a kind of level playing with Hyundai and MSport and their Rally2 cars next year while they decide what to do. And if they (especially likely Hyundai) pull out, Toyota could too and leave it to the private team and the WRC27 Car.

[WRCStan]

And if they (especially likely Hyundai) pull out, Toyota could too and leave it to the private team and the WRC27 Car.

Pull out of specifically *what*, and leaving *what* to the private teams?

In other words, what championship titles will there be and eligibility?

What's incentivising Toyota in running Rally2s? An RC2 'top class' does not mean an RC2 eligible team/constructor championship.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rumours about RMC build a WRC27 FIAT based.

Should be here tomorrow...

https://automovilismocanario.com/2026/04/21/puesta-de-largo-del-wrc-rally1-spain-by-rmc-rfeda/

[wyler]

Pull out of specifically *what*, and leaving *what* to the private teams?

In other words, what championship titles will there be and eligibility?

What's incentivising Toyota in running Rally2s? An RC2 'top class' does not mean an RC2 eligible team/constructor championship.

as things are there will be no distinction in championship between rally2 and wrc27, so they ll go anyway for the wrc championship.

[typhoon]

I know this topic is mainly focused on the technical part of WRC27 category, but since the discussion expanded to teams and where/how the WRC should go with the new Promoter, I'd like to paste a comment I really liked in the comment section of the Dirtfish article, which IMHO would be great to introduce people and all those "Average Joe" that doesn't have a really clue about rallying.



I'd say, controversially and hated by most fans

- Let rallies run how they want Thursday to Saturday night - award constructor points only on Saturday night based on finishing positions.

- Sunday - reduce margins that each driver has over their rivals to 10%. So if they have a 2 second lead, it becomes 0.2 seconds. A 2 minute lead becomes 12 seconds etc. Let them then race it out on the last stage for the overall win. However Sunday stage or (2 stages) needs to be televised live in a 2 hour package, heavily publicised, heavily marketed, cater towards causal fans, have concerts, fun fairs around the stages etc.

What do you think about this idea? I think it would be very refreshing for the sport, even though I would add some money prizes, like it was years ago the Golden Stage Rally in Cyprus (IRC era) to spice things up even more.

[Kenneth]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HGhIbvJW4AEKW6J?format=jpg&name=small

Well...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Well...

Moved to new time of 16:15

[Fast Eddie WRC]

LIVE
https://www.instagram.com/shakedown_media/live/18311783290278894?igsh=MXVmeGg0NHprYm9neg==

Dirtfish:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2027-attracts-second-new-constructor/

Car ready to test in October 2026, hope to enter WRC mid-2027. Not based on any road car.

[WRCStan]

as things are there will be no distinction in championship between rally2 and wrc27, so they ll go anyway for the wrc championship.

Then there was no immediate need to introduce WRC27, just a new way for the long term future of the sport.

[COD]

Then there was no immediate need to introduce WRC27, just a new way for the long term future of the sport.

They should just have gone the Rally2 as main category route. Maybe with bigger restrictor only

[deephouse]

there's a rumor about toyota using the rally2 as officials while handing out the wrc27 to private teams (redgrey?) at least for a couple years...

Quite unlogical move, right? Maybe a clue that they already give up too and will rather run proven Rally2 car.

[Sal yet again]

Still trying to understand if as and when these "tuners" have their cars ready to compete, will they be able to pay drivers or simply offer the cars to well healed individuals? If a lot of budget has been spent developing a car and then running it surely unlike a manufacturer there wont be much left in the pot to pay salaries..

[wyler]

Quite unlogical move, right? Maybe a clue that they already give up too and will rather run proven Rally2 car.

why? the wrc27 was a tight schedule from the beginning, we still dosn't know thr reg. and toyota is basically the only manufacturer to have a project on it. they can take it extremely easy developing, while using the rally2 car till the end. rally2 will fade out toward 2030 and leave place to the new reg.

[Kenneth]

Off-topic: Subaru just presented the new car for Japan Championship - SUBARU Boxer Rally spec Z (or shortly, BRZ lol), with 2.4T Boxer and All Wheel Drive

It will debut at Rally Asuka in two weeks

https://x.com/SUBARU_STI_MS/status/2047605512695611634

(I still cannot upload photos for some reason)

[NaBUru38]

It would be much easier to make the Power Stage time increased. I'd even do 2x or 3x.

[NaBUru38]

In my opinion, rally needs cheap, powerful and safe cars. Very few people can afford a Rally1, so there's few manufacturers and some of them don't even offer customer cars at all.

[denkimi]

In my opinion, rally needs cheap, powerful and safe cars. Very few people can afford a Rally1, so there's few manufacturers and some of them don't even offer customer cars at all.
Cars don't even need to be fast, they need to sound and look fast. If you see a porsche passing by, it looks fast but it's usually slower than the rc3 that just passed and made little noise.

we could make the cars a lot cheaper by limiting a lot of things. why do we need 200k engines, when there are engines available that produce just as much power for 20k?

[WRCStan]

Still trying to understand if as and when these "tuners" have their cars ready to compete, will they be able to pay drivers or simply offer the cars to well healed individuals? If a lot of budget has been spent developing a car and then running it surely unlike a manufacturer there wont be much left in the pot to pay salaries..

Expect the new Promoter will run the draft and handle that unless there's many options.

[WRCStan]

They should just have gone the Rally2 as main category route. Maybe with bigger restrictor only

Right, but they didn't. They want to encourage the new cars across the sport, not just RallyTV. There's now 3 constructors with rumours of more teams. It's already enough not to need Rally2s in a championship.

[Ferranis]

Cars don't even need to be fast, they need to sound and look fast. If you see a porsche passing by, it looks fast but it's usually slower than the rc3 that just passed and made little noise.

we could make the cars a lot cheaper by limiting a lot of things. why do we need 200k engines, when there are engines available that produce just as much power for 20k?

Would have made RGT like reglement for the top class. Ferrari Rally VS Porsche Rally VS Alpine rally.

We should really go back to rear wheel drive.

What do I know though

[deephouse]

Right, but they didn't. They want to encourage the new cars across the sport, not just RallyTV. There's now 3 constructors with rumours of more teams. It's already enough not to need Rally2s in a championship.

And 2 of those two will not be ready by the time. So how the championship will look like in contructors view. Toyota WRT. That's it. And even if they will enter in the middle of the season. There will not be enough events to catch the Toyota drivers and their team. So the 2027 looks a bit pointless. Except if they postpone the whole thing until 2028 and all run Rally2 cars.

[Ferranis]

And 2 of those two will not be ready by the time. So how the championship will look like in contructors view. Toyota WRT. That's it. And even if they will enter in the middle of the season. There will not be enough events to catch the Toyota drivers and their team. So the 2027 looks a bit pointless. Except if they postpone the whole thing until 2028 and all run Rally2 cars.

It is fine and dandy that you can build a car now for "cheap" as a tuner. But how is it expected from them to compete with Toyotas budget?

We will see 1-5 Toyota every rally now (on Performance), like today...

[denkimi]

It is fine and dandy that you can build a car now for "cheap" as a tuner. But how is it expected from them to compete with Toyotas budget?

We will see 1-5 Toyota every rally now (on Performance), like today...
We just need 3 more toyota's for Neuville, Fourmaux and Armstrong, and we will have a better championship than today. A cheaper one also.

[WRCStan]

And 2 of those two will not be ready by the time. So how the championship will look like in contructors view. Toyota WRT. That's it. And even if they will enter in the middle of the season. There will not be enough events to catch the Toyota drivers and their team. So the 2027 looks a bit pointless. Except if they postpone the whole thing until 2028 and all run Rally2 cars.

Fair point, but all they need is the Rally2s entering the rallies, an official Toyota team and a couple of supported bodywork-variant teams running Toyotas to feign a competition in a constructors championship similar to what's on today.

Still can't see them having a title for the FIA World Rally Championship for Manufacturers or Constructors when homologation of WRC27 comes with a requirement of a full and a half season commitment and Rally2 teams are rocking up being supported, because they won't be doing it alone.

[Kenneth]

Right, but they didn't. They want to encourage the new cars across the sport, not just RallyTV. There's now 3 constructors with rumours of more teams. It's already enough not to need Rally2s in a championship.

But they did??? Why is this conversation here every few weeks when we already know that Rally2 will be a top category for the next seasons, next to WRC27?

[Ferranis]

But they did??? Why is this conversation here every few weeks when we already know that Rally2 will be a top category for the next seasons, next to WRC27?

Personal oppinion, but if the Rally2 were not so darn boring. Current rally has quite extended WRC2 coverage and I am bored to death. No sound, no agression, slow, drive like on rails. Sad times incomming

[WRCStan]

But they did??? Why is this conversation here every few weeks when we already know that Rally2 will be a top category for the next seasons, next to WRC27?

Did they? If they do have Rally2s in a teams type championship it's a bizarre move and a shot in the foot.

Edit: I'd said they didn't move solely to Rally2s. Good example why this is a repetitive conversation.

[deephouse]

Rally2 aren't boring. It's the championship which rarely gets all main competitors aligned on a single event. Not everyone goes anywhere. But it's clear something. Those who compete for WRC2, have always some one-off or local specialist to beat and usually isn't just cruising. There is no one in WRC1 who would mix that up (sure it was Solberg last year, but he quickly become Toyota member because of that. Maybe this will change in coming years with tuner teams.

Also I wonder what will they do with this WRC2 concept and entering events. Not everyone can afford full schedule and I think that many do like this support championship, because they can choose which events to go to. If WRC27 and Rally2 will all compete in main category alongside, surely many out of them won't stand a chance, since they will not be present on all 14-15-16 events. Will they keep WRC2 for those who will compete "part-time" and WRC for those who will commit to full season? What will Lancia do? Do they have that much budget. Also Skoda...

[Ferranis]

Rally2 aren't boring. It's the championship which rarely gets all main competitors aligned on a single event. Not everyone goes anywhere. But it's clear something. Those who compete for WRC2, have always some one-off or local specialist to beat and usually isn't just cruising. There is no one in WRC1 who would mix that up (sure it was Solberg last year, but he quickly become Toyota member because of that. Maybe this will change in coming years with tuner teams.

Also I wonder what will they do with this WRC2 concept and entering events. Not everyone can afford full schedule and I think that many do like this support championship, because they can choose which events to go to. If WRC27 and Rally2 will all compete in main category alongside, surely many out of them won't stand a chance, since they will not be present on all 14-15-16 events. Will they keep WRC2 for those who will compete "part-time" and WRC for those who will commit to full season? What will Lancia do? Do they have that much budget. Also Skoda...

I think two opinions clash here. For me they are boring. They miss at least 100ps and more aero to be exiting (for the top class, for "F2" they are ok)

For the other topic: There must be still the WRC2 championship I hope. It's "just" that R2 now also score for WRC1, or is it?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Cars have become boring because they've become too good, too sophisticated. They have been made fast in place of exciting and fun.

Most people watch on tv and dont get the real impression of speed so the cars look boring as they dont slide around due to the fancy aero & suspension.

I dont see any way to fix this as you can never really go back in development. Although maybe the WRC27 cars fron the Tuners could be 'worse' so fun to watch.

[WRCStan]

Will they keep WRC2 for those who will compete "part-time" and WRC for those who will commit to full season?

Very possibly so. As a base logic, World Rally Championship for Constructors (or WRC27 teams) and WRC2 for Rally2 drivers and co-drivers until they're fully deprecated makes sense. WDC/WCC for all.

But still with who knows what for next year of course.

Thank you.

[WRCStan]

It's "just" that R2 now also score for WRC1, or is it?

Not really such a thing as WRC1, if you mean the World Driver and Codriver Championship, it always was like this. If you mean the World Manufacturer's championship, it's what I've been sceptical of for many pages.

If Rally2s do go scoring for 'WRC1' manufacturers/constructors/teams; then WRC2 is redundant.

[Belrally]

I agree with Fast Eddie WRC’s analysis. If you compare today’s Rally2 cars with the S2000 and the first-generation Rally2 cars like the Citroën DS3 and the Peugeot 208 T16 (back when it was still Rally5), they’re too efficient in terms of driving style, and the sound is also much quieter. They make less noise and don’t feel like they’re driving on the “limit” as much. This has nothing to do with horsepower. In my personal opinion, too much aero isn’t good for the sport either.

(I’m new here; I’ve been following these forums for years. I’ve finally managed to log in. This has been a source of information for me for years and I hope it doesn’t die out completely. That’s why I’ve decided to get more actively involved now)

[denkimi]

Almost no car is boring when it's being driven by a good driver. When rc2's are being driven on the limit, they aren't boring.
It's just that most rc2's aren't driven by top drivers.

[skarderud]

Just watch ERC from Sweden in 1 months time, its not boring i can tell you.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[flat_right]

It’s definitely a huge downgrade in terms of speed, power, and spectacle, but I’ll take a highly competitive field any day. As they say, top drivers will push Rally2 cars to the absolute limit. Since the cars aren’t as powerful, they’ll take even more risks in the corners to avoid braking and carry as much speed as possible.

[EstWRC]

Just watch ERC from Sweden in 1 months time, its not boring i can tell you.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

Deal. I will keep that in mind although I know the answer already

[flat_right]

Deal. I will keep that in mind although I know the answer already

Don't you remember Tänak in 2014 ERC Rally Estonia, where he basically drove the sht out of that R5 Fiesta? I mean it was a spectacle to watch him. And those cars are much slower than today's Rally2 cars.

[EstWRC]

Don't you remember Tänak in 2014 ERC Rally Estonia, where he basically drove the sht out of that R5 Fiesta? I mean it was a spectacle to watch him. And those cars are much slower than today's Rally2 cars.

Such a different times. Back then we didn’t have no idea about 2017 generation cars and current cars.

I’ve been to every rally Finland since 2015 and also every rally Estonia and the difference is huge with rally2.

Of course you will get used to it in the end but the drop will be huge in the beginning.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Just watch ERC from Sweden in 1 months time, its not boring i can tell you.



Your video from Finland 2016 shows enough. The WRC cars then were plenty exciting and Meeke set the record times.

WRC27 & Rally2 Cars wont be much different to those cars from 10 years ago.


https://youtu.be/Q42jT7AsNFE?si=QoIB7V2q98Lw4ts3

[deephouse]

Remember that there will be no better cars to compare with, 2026 Rally1 cars will be gone, and the pace will be set with Rally2/WRC27 cars so the spectacle will be there. Also I think many of those non-regular or local drivers could actually be in the mix if the performance will be close. The only thing that stopping them could be manufacturers/tuners bring them worse cars (non-evolution), but that is higely unprofessional. Also I think that if those tho cars would be similar in performance, one thong is clear, Rally2 could be way more reliable from start, so we could expect more or less Rally2's on the top of leaderboard (I'm not worried about Toyo-tank)

[Ferranis]

I really really hope I am wrong, but I don't expect any more drivers in the mix. The current Rally1 drivers are (for the most part) in Rally1 for a reason. They will continue to be the best even in Rally2 machinery.

Additionally the factor money cannot be understated. You cannot compete with toyota as a private team or individual. They will optimize every screw in the car if need be.

What should get better though is new drivers adapting better to Rally1. The jump from Rally2 to 1 was just huge

[SubaruNorway]

Your video from Finland 2016 shows enough. The WRC cars then were plenty exciting and Meeke set the record times.

WRC27 & Rally2 Cars wont be much different to those cars from 10 years ago.


https://youtu.be/Q42jT7AsNFE?si=QoIB7V2q98Lw4ts3

Wrong guy, that's my video. That 2nd spot i filmed last year also, still quite a difference to rally2, you can feel the power being quite a bit higher, time difference maybe not so big. And the sound is so much better in the WRC

[PLuto]

I really really hope I am wrong, but I don't expect any more drivers in the mix. The current Rally1 drivers are (for the most part) in Rally1 for a reason. They will continue to be the best even in Rally2 machinery.

Additionally the factor money cannot be understated. You cannot compete with toyota as a private team or individual. They will optimize every screw in the car if need be.

What should get better though is new drivers adapting better to Rally1. The jump from Rally2 to 1 was just huge

I am afraid that at least half of the current Rally1 drivers will have problems to be in top 5 or top 10 with Rally2 cars. And I am afraid that some of the older drivers will end their careers...

[deephouse]

Probably Neuville the next one as Hyundai will leave no matter what. Abiteboul already decided that, and he will have excuse now more than ever. Wonder what will bosses do when they will see that WEC is harder, and that bloke doesn't have a clue what he is doing.

[wyler]

I am afraid that at least half of the current Rally1 drivers will have problems to be in top 5 or top 10 with Rally2 cars. And I am afraid that some of the older drivers will end their careers...

you mean like suninen, right?

[denkimi]

What should get better though is new drivers adapting better to Rally1. The jump from Rally2 to 1 was just huge
Back when loeb and ogier started, the jump was from fwd s1600 or kitcar to wrc.

I would say the jump is a lot easier nowadays, the driving style between rc2 and rc1 is similar and the speed difference quite small.

[doubled1978]

I really really hope I am wrong, but I don't expect any more drivers in the mix. The current Rally1 drivers are (for the most part) in Rally1 for a reason. They will continue to be the best even in Rally2 machinery.

Additionally the factor money cannot be understated. You cannot compete with toyota as a private team or individual. They will optimize every screw in the car if need be.

What should get better though is new drivers adapting better to Rally1. The jump from Rally2 to 1 was just huge

Some guys in Rally2 cars are going to set very quick times on Fridays on gravel rallies.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wrong guy, that's my video. That 2nd spot i filmed last year also, still quite a difference to rally2, you can feel the power being quite a bit higher, time difference maybe not so big. And the sound is so much better in the WRC

Ah sorry, got you guys confused.

But I always remembered this video and how exciting it was with the 2011-16 cars, before all the extra aero and power of the next generations.

I'm sure the latest Rally2 cars will be of similar speed and they could easily be allowed to make a bit more power and noise.

[Kenneth]

Facelifted Toyota WRC27 in Spain

https://xcancel.com/RallyeSport/status/2049105958320713733#m

[Andre Oliveira]

Photos by Alpha Racing Photography

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HHAXBkpbwAQOrLb?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HHAXBkpbQAEmGEU?format=jpg&name=medium

[Rallyper]

well, looks like Yaris, doesn´t it?

[Ferranis]

Slightly less ugly than before

[Fast Eddie WRC]

well, looks like Yaris, doesn´t it?

Rear end quite similar to the C-HR.

Toyota are just trying out things and probably having a laugh at people's attempts to identify the car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Slightly less ugly than before

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HHApUMla0AASbqC?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.fopo5-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t51.82787-15/681107104_18447333160112335_3605752155830677277_n. jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=13d280&_nc_ohc=EYUG_Bsm5JoQ7kNvwHu43w5&_nc_oc=AdrnlOi3_VjD96lAp19HXsBeSXFDYAmm-VSf0GkJjTtquJ-6OwC_ajsaF_J6BnORB9a30c0fBuo6Yf7ngGSi_4jV&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-2.fna&_nc_gid=QE5OxCDGttupjADbGRoC-Q&_nc_ss=7b2a8&oh=00_Af3gZuJgeLt53jg_grPP7SuHWvuJDMHFVC7Bqbt2brSY pA&oe=69F6C77Ehttps://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t51.82787-15/681397316_18447333121112335_2362384754879206853_n. jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=13d280&_nc_ohc=iB366-DBzGsQ7kNvwHr7MHk&_nc_oc=Adr1EV6Mf-jjc1W95TR3QgIR6NTfrWGmXq4624C5IPkOh6Ta38ncZwo-pzXv_1PjtQYzNaLbeYRrs5EgoJbeZawr&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&_nc_gid=BnoaHwbB6c8zAE5laN1www&_nc_ss=7b2a8&oh=00_Af3986JN-q_vg_elBDjj1JqtDUqEDxKXFzH0snYo00BDqg&oe=69F6C1A5
https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t51.82787-15/684169222_18447333169112335_654563831812890584_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=13d280&_nc_ohc=PdBeLZuj0fMQ7kNvwHLj0ZO&_nc_oc=Adrb2LaeVPVJlp_bD9eDM7dMtW_QR0B7jsJDm1OEOHr PzWsNvv0V9sjLULQwba5O83vR95CP-BLTAGXjGnoPAIVM&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&_nc_gid=QsCrFBwZ5oczi8S6X5R93Q&_nc_ss=7b2a8&oh=00_Af1qkILuXzQhK2PrlsIeiLxQe1VN1TbU-5HEi1jPIFhmPg&oe=69F6E334

https://www.facebook.com/tcpracingcat/posts/pfbid0Qvwnh5rSSPFLUW5VJJhC8qrXCotkX2SkEgiZByqnw8i5 YQ9rdotXwX6oKmR2T9BFl

[Andre Oliveira]

Btw, new GR Yaris facelift to compare

https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/681208989_1564245465509096_8111202960987606756_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=13d280&_nc_ohc=KbN03diA6RoQ7kNvwFwCBS9&_nc_oc=Adrdw92Kmg9EeXVOMog8m6OHjgkUlsEJpjbob7UCWNP gtjtgMGT1s1tuUio1mYDIlayrzWMUmnZU43OLjt_99TYg&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&_nc_gid=odemwa0BFgfnIna52HX8aA&_nc_ss=7b2a8&oh=00_Af2c31207VjJ53syyfuo2F5denG7T0tdkjSdzhvt4Nrk aw&oe=69F6B7FC
https://scontent.fopo5-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/683827099_1564246038842372_6781354564450410507_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=13d280&_nc_ohc=WROVzidVX6AQ7kNvwH0TpEg&_nc_oc=AdqpkK56HFXbKqhYwxvcp-4hFpXjTK2DjXjBU6nkIu6aCM-5PDQ3-3EooWJyUvUkzHTlCogiago67U1qqNYpK9hU&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-2.fna&_nc_gid=VujQouvr3h55YkmMvuR5HA&_nc_ss=7b2a8&oh=00_Af1oSPKhb4EaeHKZRDqmwK7N4jUiPmy6Hl8KtHlzuMz8 _A&oe=69F6DD34

[TypeR]

https://www.upload.ee/image/19297539/toyota-corolla-compact-vii-e100.jpg

[deephouse]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-weighs-up-wrc-new-car-build-as-all-options-remain-open-/10816366/

Great article from M-Sport regarding their future. It clears what their plan is and it is they will be there in one form or another.

[Ferranis]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-weighs-up-wrc-new-car-build-as-all-options-remain-open-/10816366/

Great article from M-Sport regarding their future. It clears what their plan is and it is they will be there in one form or another.

To be honest this is a typical M-Sport interview that can be summarized with: "We don't know either what will happen".

The most concrete is "As for next year, M-Sport confirmed that there are no plans to further upgrade its Fiesta Rally2 car, which will be at the centre of any prospective WRC programme next year.".

The remaining interview is: "Year, somehow, potentially, we will stay with some kind of car"

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They will be in WRC one way or another, either with a Manufacturer or alone. Rally is their core business and their background with the Rally1 Puma spaceframe chassis will make them the perfect Constructor.

[deephouse]

They are just waiting as everyone else regarding the future, promoter and if the new regulations will be successful. If don't they still could do a new Rally2 car.

[WRCStan]

I wouldn't say waiting, I think MW is rightfully avoiding any possibility of conflict of interest claims while having a plan in the background.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If don't they still could do a new Rally2 car.

There's no chance of a new Rally2 car in 2028... it'll be a spaceframe chassis with an OEMs road car design, or M-Sports own.

[typhoon]

Lancia's CEO dropped the bomb: they're looking at WRC27 regulations!

https://www.autosprint.it/news/rally/news/2026/04/28-8762946/lancia_via_alla_wrc_2027
(news in italian, written by a long-time WRC journo and Head of Rally Sardinia press office)

[Kenneth]

There's no chance of a new Rally2 car in 2028... it'll be a spaceframe chassis with an OEMs road car design, or M-Sports own.

I think Pluto said that 2026 is the last year when it's possible to homologate a Rally2, is that right?

[deephouse]

What if WRC27 fail miserably? It would be complete stupidity if they would bot extend Rally2 homologation cycles and kill both cars at the same time. But with FIA I wouldn't be surprised.

[WRCStan]

What if WRC27 fail miserably? It would be complete stupidity if they would bot extend Rally2 homologation cycles and kill both cars at the same time. But with FIA I wouldn't be surprised.

If they fail then there won't be a WRC and the sport becomes for historics, tuners and amateurs anyway.

[WRCStan]

Have we finally got Group S?

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0905/5702/2506/files/Robb-Pritchard-Toyota-222D-35.jpg?v=1739346170

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lancia's CEO dropped the bomb: they're looking at WRC27 regulations!

https://www.autosprint.it/news/rally/news/2026/04/28-8762946/lancia_via_alla_wrc_2027
(news in italian, written by a long-time WRC journo and Head of Rally Sardinia press office)

I dont think this necessarily confirms they will build a WRC27 spaceframe car.

It seems like they're just saying they'll continue in 2027 when their strong Rally2 Car will be able to compete in the top class.

[Kenneth]

Idk how much reliable is Google translate, but

"We are working on the project to prepare for WRC 27, a development step that interests us"

doesn't sound like they are talking about next season. I'm pretty sure plans for next year are already far beyond the "working on the project to prepare for" phase.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Idk how much reliable is Google translate, but

"We are working on the project to prepare for WRC 27, a development step that interests us"

doesn't sound like they are talking about next season. I'm pretty sure plans for next year are already far beyond the "working on the project to prepare for" phase.

Maybe.

But it seems they're putting a lot of work into the Rally2 car only to ditch it and spend considerably more developing a WRC27 spaceframe car.

[deephouse]

Their car is homologated until 2032, so that's a lot of years for competing with that car. Also if WRC27 fails, which I'm still somehow convinced it will (no matter if we got 2 new teams in the championship), that car would be valid I think for further years.

[saco0o]

GRIT Games will be wrc's game developer in 2027 (up until 2032?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu70aC1eMpI

we have the cars, the game... just lacking the promoter

[Eli]

During my time in the service park here, I heard a few things, one is that they’re still finalising the regulations for next year and two is they’re also thinking of reducing the power of the rally2 machines from 2027 onwards. One more thing, apparently the New rally1 machines won’t have a global racing engine anymore but a detuned rally2 engine, sorry if the last bit isn’t news but I asked since I wasn’t sure of it.

[deephouse]

Are they nuts? Such a morons still scratching their heads over regulations. No wonder M-Sport and Hyundai isn't interested until the thing will be clear. More and more I wonder if they actually want to kill the WRC and blame everyone except them.

[EstWRC]

Want to kill? They have done it already.

And this is no news, that’s why Toyota is also testing with the weird rear wing cause they don’t know the final solution.

Unbelievable that we have this situation in 2026 in May.

This would have been understandable maybe in the 80s

[AMSS]

During my time in the service park here, I heard a few things, one is that they’re still finalising the regulations for next year and two is they’re also thinking of reducing the power of the rally2 machines from 2027 onwards. One more thing, apparently the New rally1 machines won’t have a global racing engine anymore but a detuned rally2 engine, sorry if the last bit isn’t news but I asked since I wasn’t sure of it.

this sounds absolutely insane, 36mm restrictor for new Rally 1 and 2,5bar max pressure all that`s needed

[deephouse]

Want to kill? They have done it already.

And this is no news, that’s why Toyota is also testing with the weird rear wing cause they don’t know the final solution.

Unbelievable that we have this situation in 2026 in May.

This would have been understandable maybe in the 80s

Completely agree. So angry because there could be simple thing to do until they have clear vision and rules set to the stone (and promoter). No they keep digging the grave more and more and simply doesn't see that the whole thing will not be ready.. fucked up big this time (sorry for language, but total idiots, if you ask me)

[flat_right]

Completely agree. So angry because there could be simple thing to do until they have clear vision and rules set to the stone (and promoter). No they keep digging the grave more and more and simply doesn't see that the whole thing will not be ready.. fucked up big this time (sorry for language, but total idiots, if you ask me)

Does anyone have any idea why there’s so much indecisiveness from the rule makers? Is it just total cluelessness about what to do, or are some parties pushing their own agenda?

[Ferranis]

Mark my words, the whole thing will be dead on arrival once we have a new promoter with, hopefully, better ideas

[skarderud]

Does anyone have any idea why there’s so much indecisiveness from the rule makers? Is it just total cluelessness about what to do, or are some parties pushing their own agenda?I think the latter one.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[WRCStan]

New rally1 machines won’t have a global racing engine anymore but a detuned rally2 engine

Detuned? But plans to detune Rally2 too? :confused:

Thanks for asking the questions.

[Ferranis]

If this is correct, WRC27 sounds more and more like the death sentence that was the switch to EV for RallyCross

[Eli]

Detuned? But plans to detune Rally2 too? :confused:

Thanks for asking the questions.

yes detuned to make them slower, if I get to ask more people around the service park of course I’ll let you know.

[WRCStan]

Rally3 top class too. lol.

I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just choosing not to believe it.

[flat_right]

yes detuned to make them slower, if I get to ask more people around the service park of course I’ll let you know.

Could it be that they will detune rally2 to make wrc27 stand out? It is so hard to believe this... rally2 looks already slow compared to rally1, to make it even more slow seems crazy.

[deephouse]

Mark my words, the whole thing will be dead on arrival once we have a new promoter with, hopefully, better ideas

Do you actually believe there will be one? It seems that even that will fall into the water as everything else. If not FIA will make sure it will.

[Ferranis]

Do you actually believe there will be one? It seems that even that will fall into the water as everything else. If not FIA will make sure it will.

I have serious doubts as of now, to be absolutely honest. Seems that the FIA / current promoter destroyed so much worth, that no one with serious intentions wants it.

It's so crazy, compare the hype for 2017 to .. whatever this is currently

[flat_right]

Found this from Reddit: https://sapo.pt/artigo/rali-de-portugal-novo-promotor-quer-fazer-uma-coisa-muito-mais-formula-1-69ff6390e007d4f9b5eb3a60

“The new promoter wants to do something closer to Formula 1, more show, wants the paddock itself to have all this. We are already building it. A village that has the top guests they want to have there. Next year we will have another official manufacturer, but I can't reveal it, it will be announced in June. They want to do another kind of rally, change the television broadcasts. We have already had a good conversation here with them, next year we will be the first rally of the championship that will give this smell. In Monte Carlo it's more complicated. They want to do Turini on Saturday night, but I don't believe it.”

[WRCStan]

I'm reading the rally will have a new sponsor? Are you Portuguese?

[pedro16]

Where are you getting the sponsor from?

He talks about the service park for Rally Portugal moving to the city of Viseu next year (Exponor - the current service park in Matosinhos will be demolished and the construction work in the area will take at least 2 years).

Then he talks about what the new promoter wants to implement and a new manufacturer (european) entering the championship that will be announced in june.

[deephouse]

Great news about new manufacturer. Looking forward for 2028 season, if actually they sort things out until then.

[WRCStan]

Where are you getting the sponsor from?

He talks about the service park for Rally Portugal moving to the city of Viseu next year (Exponor - the current service park in Matosinhos will be demolished and the construction work in the area will take at least 2 years).

Then he talks about what the new promoter wants to implement and a new manufacturer (european) entering the championship that will be announced in june.

After talking solely about the rally: "For the year we will have another official brand, but I cannot reveal it, it will be announced now in June."

Why would he talk about not talking about a manufacturer, seems odd. Also not seeing where they are European.

[flat_right]

After talking solely about the rally: "For the year we will have another official brand, but I cannot reveal it, it will be announced now in June."

Why would he talk about not talking about a manufacturer, seems odd. Also not seeing where they are European.

I'll link the reddit topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/WRC/comments/1tadhft/the_new_promoter_wants_something_closer_to/?

Here the OP says that "Regarding the new manufacturer, on another interview live on portuguese tv (can’t find the source, but I saw it live), he has said that it was an european manufacturer, but it wasn’t Lancia. "

[deephouse]

-VAG group: Skoda, as they are the most active in rallying.
-Stellantis group: there is already Lancia, and they said it isn't them, so that left with Peugeot (already tease with some GTi models, and doing poor in WEC), Citroen (nothing on them, except they said they are looking at 2027 regs), unlikely it will go through the budget for 2 of their brands being involved in same sport
-Renault group: left Rally-Raid and WEC, in F1 doing very badly, so it's possible, also strong rumours about Prodrive already building a car for WRC27 regulations, and they have close connections to the brand
-Geely group: not actually European, but there was some rumours about Lynk&Co, maybe Volvo will take over, but I think not even a slight chance of that happening
-BMW group: highly unlikely

now you all figure it out, who is the most possible of what we know, that could be.

[trykmann]

-VAG group: Skoda, as they are the most active in rallying.
-Stellantis group: there is already Lancia, and they said it isn't them, so that left with Peugeot (already tease with some GTi models, and doing poor in WEC), Citroen (nothing on them, except they said they are looking at 2027 regs), unlikely it will go through the budget for 2 of their brands being involved in same sport
-Renault group: left Rally-Raid and WEC, in F1 doing very badly, so it's possible, also strong rumours about Prodrive already building a car for WRC27 regulations, and they have close connections to the brand
-Geely group: not actually European, but there was some rumours about Lynk&Co, maybe Volvo will take over, but I think not even a slight chance of that happening
-BMW group: highly unlikely

now you all figure it out, who is the most possible of what we know, that could be.

Skoda seems to be the most obvious one. They already have a long and successful history in rallying and good customer racing program. Eventually the current Fabia will be outdated in a few years and they have to replace it with something.

There is also a question mark on M-sport. We can be 99% sure they also will be there 2028 onwards, but Fords involvement is unknown.

[WRCStan]

I'll link the reddit topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/WRC/comments/1tadhft/the_new_promoter_wants_something_closer_to/?

Here the OP says that "Regarding the new manufacturer, on another interview live on portuguese tv (can’t find the source, but I saw it live), he has said that it was an european manufacturer, but it wasn’t Lancia. "

I've no time for some chump off Reddit. Luckily June is only next month.

[WRCStan]

Skoda seems to be the most obvious one. They already have a long and successful history in rallying and good customer racing program. Eventually the current Fabia will be outdated in a few years and they have to replace it with something.

There is also a question mark on M-sport. We can be 99% sure they also will be there 2028 onwards, but Fords involvement is unknown.

Can't even assume this rumour if true even means a new WRC27 constructor. It could be Skoda with the Fabia or Hyundai with the i20.

[deephouse]

Like I said, the most possibility is Skoda, then Renault with Alpine or Dacia or even Renault itself (Prodrive driven, project). Then again Stellantis, but I don't believe they would found two simultaneously projects in the same sport. If they would have serious interest, they would back up Lancia as if they fund another of their brand for top class, it would shone a bad light on their Rally2 and it would kill the brand instantly.

There is also one other chance. That it will be nothing: 1. If the potential new buyer of promoter rights will back off, and 2. If they will back off if the regulations will not suit them even before we would know of whom we talking about.

All possibilities have equal chances of succeding or failing.

[WRCStan]

Then again Stellantis, but I don't believe they would found two simultaneously projects in the same sport. If they would have serious interest, they would back up Lancia as if they fund another of their brand for top class, it would shone a bad light on their Rally2 and it would kill the brand instantly.

Is it all that much cost for many teams if they were doing one WRC27 team? The different brands are as good as different liveries.

Also, the new promoter is in it for 25 years. They wouldn't back off at this stage due to the regulations - which they are already privy to.

[Ferranis]

I hope it is a new constructor, but maybe we have lost in translation / misunderstanding here and it's "just" another "tuner"

[flat_right]

I've no time for some chump off Reddit. Luckily June is only next month.

If someone had posted this here first instead of Reddit, would you have accepted it then, or what do you mean? The OP is just a rally fan and simply shared potentially important information that was shared in their local media and hasn't been "picked up" by anyone yet.

[WRCStan]

I'm just as sceptical with anything posted here by anybody. Some things are more believable than others but I generally don't accept anything until it comes from the source.

I've since seen something on autosport.pt with Carlos Barbosa (https://www.autosport.pt/ralis/wrc/rali-de-portugal-carlos-barbosa-vamos-ter-mais-uma-marca-oficial/), allegedly pulled from the same RTP interview. That's the same autosport.pt that parroted the Lancia 2027 story from Rallyssimo's private conversation the other week - which no other media chose to run. This time Barbosa recalled a conversation he had with Malcolm Wilson 'the other day'.... read it yourself, it's bollocks.

It's all hearsay, chinese whispers and extrapolations from imaginary conversations to form contentcontentcontent. That's why I choose not to accept it.

Maybe there are shreds of truth. There is WMSC next month and the announcement of a new promoter, allegedly, which makes sense. Maybe Lancia is true, maybe this is too and the Dirtfishes are under embargo. But I can wait rather than having blind belief.

[WRCStan]

I've since seen something on autosport.pt with Carlos Barbosa (https://www.autosport.pt/ralis/wrc/rali-de-portugal-carlos-barbosa-vamos-ter-mais-uma-marca-oficial/), allegedly pulled from the same RTP interview.

Should we spend 10 pages talking about what is happening in 2029?

"They are pointing to the new World Cup starting in 2029, which is when all the cars are already there, where we will already have private individuals who will enter with new cars, as is the case with Yves Matton, who will enter with a car for the completely new year. The P1s will be gone and the P2s will be left with the kits that, in essence, will give them more competition."

[EstWRC]

ive learned from all the years on this forum and in social media that everything that comes from southern europe regarding rally news has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

[wyler]

it's just a matter of what anyone decides to extract from the news. from Italy: Lancia's news is true, it comes directly from the manager of the brand. but it's not that much of a news. she just said more or less "we are working on the 27, a thing in which we are interested".
then anyone decides how much to build on it.

[deephouse]

It's logical they will do it in already built Rally2, since they will have that option to compete alongside WRC27. If things will progress regarding more entries, they could separate those two classes again, and I think then they will decide if they will go up the ladder. Right now it's still a great chance all will fall into the water and such a fragile brand will rather sit out until things will be clear than going with head through wall. WRC teach me that everyhing is not true until it is. Sadly here things are clear too late or never. It's just blabbering and most of promises can't be taken too seriously.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hyundai boss thinks WRC27 Car will have big advantages over Rally2 cars...

https://rallyjournal.com/hyundai-boss-casts-doubt-over-wrc27-concept/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPMjc1MjU0 NjkyNTk4Mjc5AAEeilJoPZq4k6uXR4U8MItKAF69dnVM0nFIT0 fUE9rZvt_IAYf22-EzAo_pmu8_aem_u-MN5oc4iLxLh9Dn0TPjyg

[deephouse]

They are loud like they are some sort of experts or that their cars dominate the sport. Funny they rely just on some "unfinished" technical data they've got, but their cars are always complete mess when they build completely new chassis.

[Ferranis]

Take with a grain of salt, but what FX says makes at least sense in my opinion:

"According to Demaison, the WRC27 regulations will provide a clear advantage to the new-generation cars. On asphalt rallies, for example, the new cars will benefit from their wider track and aerodynamics. The same applies to transmission systems and set-up possibilities."

"“The WRC27 suspension will have more freedom to accommodate tarmac and gravel. The double wishbone suspension for sure will have more reliability in the rough rallies, there will be an advantage compared to [our current] McPherson suspension. All this together on tarmac and slippery rallies, the double wishbone will have an advantage and on rough rallies they will have a big advantage on reliability and capability for the driver to go faster through the rough conditions. It does not leave too many rallies where a Rally2 or a Rally2 plus can be competitive,” Demaison explained."

But at the end it does not matter at all. No one will be able to compete with Toyota, since they will be the only one with real manufacture investment left.

They could drive Rally3 cars and would most likely win

[WRCStan]

But at the end it does not matter at all. No one will be able to compete with Toyota, since they will be the only one with real manufacture investment left.

What about the Toyotas competing against Toyota? ;)

[Ferranis]

Then a Toyota would beat a Toyota leading to Toyota being the champion in the World Toyota championship :D :D :D

[deephouse]

And eventually Toyota would leave as they prefer having a challenge.

[Ferranis]

At this point Toyota IS Rally1. Maybe we should kindly ask them to run cars for all current Rally1 drivers ;-)

Would make for a nice competition

[Kenneth]

I wonder how the price cap will work, but I'm afraid it won't be really effective for keeping a performance balance. Afterall cost of the car doesn't necessarily need to reflect the cost of development for big manus.

Maybe financial cap ala F1 could work somehow? But idk, as F1 isn't customer focused like WRC27 aims to be.

Or some kind of financial balance, like customers must be able to somehow cover the cost of the development by the car sales.

[Ferranis]

I wonder how the price cap will work, but I'm afraid it won't be really effective for keeping a performance balance. Afterall cost of the car doesn't necessarily need to reflect the cost of development for big manus.

Maybe financial cap ala F1 could work somehow? But idk, as F1 isn't customer focused like WRC27 aims to be.

Or some kind of financial balance, like customers must be able to somehow cover the cost of the development by the car sales.

A team cost cap would be the only action helping in my oppinion. But it's a huge investment to control it if I understand correctly from F1

[WRCStan]

F1 isn't customer focused like WRC27 aims to be.

The WRC side of things won't be customer focused. Maybe it'll have that by-product, but the new promoter doesn't sound like they're settling for that.

[deephouse]

The way all is processing, we can expect to have promoter and all things clear by the year of 2029. And the interested teams in championship racing on paper until then.

[Ferranis]

The way all is processing, we can expect to have promoter and all things clear by the year of 2029. And the interested teams in championship racing on paper until then.

I start to get WRX PTSD. Eerily similar. 27 seems to be a bust, 28 maybe too.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They are loud like they are some sort of experts or that their cars dominate the sport. Funny they rely just on some "unfinished" technical data they've got, but their cars are always complete mess when they build completely new chassis.

Hyundai did win the Manufacturer Title twice (2019 & 2020) and could well have won 2024 when their driver Neuville was World Champion.

But about the comments of FX Demaison, he is probably right that the WRC27 could have many advantages over the Rally2 cars.

As this is what they'll have next year (if they continue) then he might be getting his excuses in early. However unless they make a huge comeback this year I dont see how they will justify staying.

[Ferranis]

Hyundai did win the Manufacturer Title twice (2019 & 2020) and could well have won 2024 when their driver Neuville was World Champion.

But about the comments of FX Demaison, he is probably right that the WRC27 could have many advantages over the Rally2 cars.

As this is what they'll have next year (if they continue) then he might be getting his excuses in early. However unless they make a huge comeback this year I dont see how they will justify staying.

Off topic, but I am a firm believer that Hyundai is a top team (maybe not this year, but still), that was massively let down by its drivers.

Put Ogier / Tanak in the Team from 2017 onward and we would look at a dominating team with many constructor and individual championchips

[deephouse]

Tanak was there twice, did you forget that? And koining Toyota team for testing and not Hyubndai, is quite clear it's the cars that let him down again and again. In that team there were so much great drivers and still they struggle year by year. We saw that if great drivers are put in M-Sport they can do miracles, which sadly can't be said for Hyundai. Based on results Hyundai did best when there was Adamo pulling the strings. I strongly believe that Neuville won the title simply because Ogier did too many mistakes. If he would drive like last year he would easily won that too. I blame Cyril to turn that team to worse, simply because he is not the right man for this sport. After so much years they could at least be somewhere, but they getting nowhere. If they continue like that in WEC where competition is way higher, intense I don't know how they will ever achieve great things. They've had so much chances through all those years in WRC when there was only 2-3 teams to compete.

[Ferranis]

Tanak was there twice, did you forget that? And koining Toyota team for testing and not Hyubndai, is quite clear it's the cars that let him down again and again. In that team there were so much great drivers and still they struggle year by year. We saw that if great drivers are put in M-Sport they can do miracles, which sadly can't be said for Hyundai. Based on results Hyundai did best when there was Adamo pulling the strings. I strongly believe that Neuville won the title simply because Ogier did too many mistakes. If he would drive like last year he would easily won that too. I blame Cyril to turn that team to worse, simply because he is not the right man for this sport. After so much years they could at least be somewhere, but they getting nowhere. If they continue like that in WEC where competition is way higher, intense I don't know how they will ever achieve great things. They've had so much chances through all those years in WRC when there was only 2-3 teams to compete.

Ogier +Tanak + a promising 3. driver which initials are not T.N.

Would have, could have, but I refuse to believe that they would have let the team develop this understeering thing that only ever (and only sometimes at that) suited Thierry

[focus206]

Off topic, but I am a firm believer that Hyundai is a top team (maybe not this year, but still), that was massively let down by its drivers.

Put Ogier / Tanak in the Team from 2017 onward and we would look at a dominating team with many constructor and individual championchips

What? The hybrid i20 in 2022 and 2023 was one of the most unreliable rally cars ever made, not even prime Loeb could have won the title with a car whose suspensions would fall apart on road sections. Only in 2024 it was close to Toyota, and in fact Neuville won the title. The hybridless + Hankook i20 in 2025 and 2026 is close to undriveable and much slower than Toyota more often than not.

Tanak drove for Hyundai for 5 seasons, couldn't clinch the title and was fed up with the car's being slower and more unreliable than Toyota. Ogier couldn't handle the C3 having 2 powersteering failures in a whole season as sole reliability problems, let alone the Hyundai.

[EstWRC]

Ferranis has a different point

He means if Ogier and Tänak would have been there prior 2017 and developed the cars not jumping into those wrongly developed ones.

[focus206]

Ferranis has a different point

He means if Ogier and Tänak would have been there prior 2017 and developed the cars not jumping into those wrongly developed ones.

You can have a case about driveability, but it's still up to engineers to develop the car according to the driver input. It's possible Ogier and Tanak would have been better at developing than Thierry, but would the engineers be able to transform their input into a good car? Neuville didn't ask for an understeering car, nobody would, in the past he had to modify his driving style and use handbrake a lot to counterbalance how the car naturally was.

For reliability and parts that just fail, that's totally up to the team.

[WRCStan]

Hyundai have been in this series for 13 consecutive seasons, what would they get out of more, especially when it is moving to a constructor basis.

[deephouse]

Agree, basically everytime they develop new car, they are too late to the party, the car is rubbish and they act like they just start rallying.

[Ferranis]

Ferranis has a different point

He means if Ogier and Tänak would have been there prior 2017 and developed the cars not jumping into those wrongly developed ones.

Really appreciate the nice discourse and can totally understand all the replies and where you come from.

To emphasize: Hyundai lacked a star driver like Ogier (with Tanak as second) that made the team their team, preventing all the shenanigans and leading it to success. Thierry just isn't this kind of guy

I am thinking if Ogier made Ford a championship contender, what could he have done with the resources of Hyundai

[focus206]

To emphasize: Hyundai lacked a star driver like Ogier (with Tanak as second) that made the team their team, preventing all the shenanigans and leading it to success. Thierry just isn't this kind of guy


What shenanigans would have Ogier prevented, exactly? Ogier doesn't design car parts, engineers do. Ogier can say "the car understeers too much", maybe he can loosely suggest modifications to differential, everything else is up to engineers. And this is if we give for granted that Ogier would have had the patience to pull Hyundai out of unreliability, which he didn't have with Citroen.

Thierry is the only driver in recent memory who won the title while driving clearly not the best car. Even Ogier's Fiesta in 2017 and 2018 wasn't the fastest, but was the most reliable.

[Ferranis]

What shenanigans would have Ogier prevented, exactly? Ogier doesn't design car parts, engineers do. Ogier can say "the car understeers too much", maybe he can loosely suggest modifications to differential, everything else is up to engineers. And this is if we give for granted that Ogier would have had the patience to pull Hyundai out of unreliability, which he didn't have with Citroen.

Thierry is the only driver in recent memory who won the title while driving clearly not the best car. Even Ogier's Fiesta in 2017 and 2018 wasn't the fastest, but was the most reliable.

I think in general its the question how much impact a driver has on the success of a team. Personally I hold the driver in high regard. Building and maintaining a car for a driver that will win if the car is up to par must have a huge impact on team morale. Additionally such drivers tend to get what they want from the team, if there are no preventing circumstances (MSport out of money, Citroen doing whatever they did). Success also breeds succes, better engineers want to work for you in such a team

[focus206]

I think in general its the question how much impact a driver has on the success of a team. Personally I hold the driver in high regard. Building and maintaining a car for a driver that will win if the car is up to par must have a huge impact on team morale. Additionally such drivers tend to get what they want from the team, if there are no preventing circumstances (MSport out of money, Citroen doing whatever they did). Success also breeds succes, better engineers want to work for you in such a team

Morale and mentality are abstract concepts. What would Ogier do to fix turbo failures? Fuel pump failures? Suspensions collapsing? Nothing, a driver can do nothing about it.

Could he make the car more driveable? Maybe, if we assume the engineers would be able to translate his input into output, they haven't done a good job at that in all these years.
But then, if Ogier is so good at make a team work, why didn't he do it with Citroen? The C3 wasn't slow nor unreliable, the big problem was driveability. Ogier complained, didn't improve it and quit the team after one season, not even attempting to make the team his own.

[trykmann]

Morale and mentality are abstract concepts. What would Ogier do to fix turbo failures? Fuel pump failures? Suspensions collapsing? Nothing, a driver can do nothing about it.

Could he make the car more driveable? Maybe, if we assume the engineers would be able to translate his input into output, they haven't done a good job at that in all these years.
But then, if Ogier is so good at make a team work, why didn't he do it with Citroen? The C3 wasn't slow nor unreliable, the big problem was driveability. Ogier complained, didn't improve it and quit the team after one season, not even attempting to make the team his own.

C3 was actually being developed and significant upgrades were planned for 2020. Östberg was developing them and according his description the upgrades improved the car a lot. Sadly we all know what happened in the end of 2019 with Citroen.

[deephouse]

Ogier is not the only man who can actually win a title, or more over, make the car good. Just look at all Toyota drivers. They are all very good, even Pajari and Katsuta, which were clearly the team's weakness, but that changed this year. It's just that Hyundai have so many drivers already in the team, so many years competing and still somehow clueless about everything. I don't say Neuville and Fourmaux aren't the right guys for team, and also those three in third car are somehow making the best they can, it's just that they completely lack in development and consequently team morale went down event after the event. Maybe also many of crew already knew, they are out, so they don't bother so much anymore. Even Neuville admitted, it's over for this season (Ok, he slightly changed his mind with recent win).

If we look again on Ogier performances lately. He is having troubles mostly just by those damn Hankooks. If he would have issues with car frequently, he would probably already retired, as he is not very patient person, and also with so many titles, he expect some professionalism, as Toyota could provide him that, and Hyundai and M-Sport sadly couldn't or won't.

[Ferranis]

C3 was actually being developed and significant upgrades were planned for 2020. Östberg was developing them and according his description the upgrades improved the car a lot. Sadly we all know what happened in the end of 2019 with Citroen.

The upgrade was sick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eov84PRQuyU

Really sad we did not see it compete. Same with the new Yaris Toyota was developing that was cancelled due to covid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_vOnEKuSG0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVv4vJrVEMw

[Ferranis]

The upgrade was sick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eov84PRQuyU

Really sad we did not see it compete. Same with the new Yaris Toyota was developing that was cancelled due to covid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_vOnEKuSG0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVv4vJrVEMw

To go back to the original topic after a really fun excursion (thank you all for the wonderful discussion).

THIS is what I want the top class of WRC to be and not whatever WRC27 will be.

With a team cost cap it would most likely be achievable. We have good tools now to develop aero for comparatively cheap

[WRCStan]

To go back to the original topic after a really fun excursion (thank you all for the wonderful discussion).

THIS is what I want the top class of WRC to be and not whatever WRC27 will be.

With a team cost cap it would most likely be achievable. We have good tools now to develop aero for comparatively cheap

So who will turn up? Only Toyota.

[Ferranis]

So who will turn up? Only Toyota.

Right now yes, but this is after years of mis-management, which could not have happened :( (one can dream)

17 we were on a high, which was squandered later on, especially with the ill fated plug-in hybrids

[WRCStan]

Mismanagement? They were bound to the decrees of Politicians and the Princes of Finance.

17-19 was class because of 4 teams all equally capable with a spread of talent. Wouldn't see that again with a production car basis. The future is not a manufacturer entrant's sport.

[PLuto]

The future is not a manufacturer entrant's sport.

I dont agree. If FIA and promoter works properly and has anything to offer, I am sure we should have 3-4 manufacturers (which is enough for proper championship)...

[Kenneth]

With a team cost cap it would most likely be achievable. We have good tools now to develop aero for comparatively cheap

Certainty it wasn't the development what cost that much money.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Certainty it wasn't the development what cost that much money.

Yep, the materials used were the issue. Drivers were begging fans to return any aero that came off their cars during a rally as they cost a fortune to replace.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The Americans are going their own way with this new cost-effective alternative to European Rally2 Cars...

https://www.jrdmotorsport.com/arc2araspeccarupdates

With development and testing help from Marcus Gronholm:

https://rallyjournal.com/marcus-gronholm-returns-to-rally-duties-big-news-on-the-horizon/

[Kenneth]

Wow $220 000 (~190k Eur) in gravel spec is really good price.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wow $220 000 (~190k Eur) in gravel spec is really good price.

Around €100,000 less than a Rally2 car.

The cost of buying and running a WRC27 will also be too much for many outside Europe. Another missed opportunity for sales around the world.

[WRCStan]

I dont agree. If FIA and promoter works properly and has anything to offer, I am sure we should have 3-4 manufacturers (which is enough for proper championship)...

Then it's basically the promoter's entries. If WRC was a promoter-less cup, how many would we see? None, times have changed for car companies and we don't see them in ERC and nationals like days of old.

[Ferranis]

Then it's basically the promoter's entries. If WRC was a promoter-less cup, how many would we see? None, times have changed for car companies and we don't see them in ERC and nationals like days of old.

It's because the Return Of Investment is even worse than in the WRC. At the end it is (and was) always about the money.

If WRC / ERC would give the manufacturers a resonable Return Of Investment, they would be there.

But now for what? 500 people watching on WRC+ and best case a few thousands on the stages?

[deephouse]

I think they made it even worse with completely locked out content thinking that hardcore fans will paying for that, but they achieved quite opposite effect. Many of them become casual fans. Well casual fans wouldn't never pay for that. They would watch the sport live or on some sport channel. And where it's broadcasting, nowhere. At least for the time being when they want to bring fan numbers up again, they could offer something, but they will not. They will probably increase price and show even less content. That's my feeling. I know it's hard to engage new audience since the sport is hard to follow for straight 3-4 whole days, but at east they could try shortening liaison, rally itself or anything which could engage at least someone. If that would work, that would mean they should improving in that direction, if not, they go opposite direction. But I think that in their heads it's a rollercoaster and how less money could potentially they grab.

[WRCStan]

It's because the Return Of Investment is even worse than in the WRC. At the end it is (and was) always about the money.

If WRC / ERC would give the manufacturers a resonable Return Of Investment, they would be there.

Would they?

You could say the same if the entrants were energy drinks, horse sperm traders, privateer drivers or WRC2027 constructors.

Not sure what ROI measurement you'd use, but car companies cannot use chucking a car through the forests in adverts to sell cars anymore. Outside the contextualised broadcast of doing the sport, it's useless to them.

[Ferranis]

Would they?

You could say the same if the entrants were energy drinks, horse sperm traders, privateer drivers or WRC2027 constructors.

Not sure what ROI measurement you'd use, but car companies cannot use chucking a car through the forests in adverts to sell cars anymore. Outside the contextualised broadcast of doing the sport, it's useless to them.

I in general wonder what manufacturers get out of motorsport in detail, but since some series are very active in this regard, there must be a ROI somewhere to be had. Hopefully we have some people here to shed some light on this

[WRCStan]

I in general wonder what manufacturers get out of motorsport in detail, but since some series are very active in this regard, there must be a ROI somewhere to be had.

One of two things: brand recall and associated emotions from the audience, or selling cars into the sport.

The values associated with WRC aren't in tune with where EU/western politicians and regs are. Which is partly why there are no EU brands doing Rally1.

And as there is nothing in common with the needs of special stage rallying and western regs on what a road passenger car should be, have and do... there's no justification for this link with manufacturers anymore which is why it is, and should be, decoupling.

Funnily enough Liberty have turned the image of F1 around from being a boys club with grid girls to an inclusive sport and it has worked to attract manufacturers. Maybe if, IF, rally cars did look nothing like road passenger cars and some other magical stuff happened around the WRC image, then it could work to attract manufacturers.

[Ferranis]

One of two things: brand recall and associated emotions from the audience, or selling cars into the sport.

The values associated with WRC aren't in tune with where EU/western politicians and regs are. Which is partly why there are no EU brands doing Rally1.

And as there is nothing in common with the needs of special stage rallying and western regs on what a road passenger car should be, have and do... there's no justification for this link with manufacturers anymore which is why it is, and should be, decoupling.

Funnily enough Liberty have turned the image of F1 around from being a boys club with grid girls to an inclusive sport and it has worked to attract manufacturers. Maybe if, IF, rally cars did look nothing like road passenger cars and some other magical stuff happened around the WRC image, then it could work to attract manufacturers.

Thank you and this really is a conundrum.

Maybe it would help for WRC to go the "safety" route then for road relevance. Where else is a better place to develop all those electronic helpers like ABS than on public roads in race speed

Stupid idea probably though

[WRCStan]

Here (https://www.bridgestone-asiapacific.com/en/motorsports/fia-ecorally-cup)

"an international motorsport series dedicated to electric vehicles competing under real road conditions.

The competition features unmodified, road-legal electric vehicles (including prototypes) approved for daily use and homologated for public roads within the EU.

The series encourages manufacturers to push the boundaries of sustainable automotive technology, making it a real-world testing ground for next-generation mobility solutions.

Competitors are not allowed to make any modifications that would impede these cars from their intended daily use.

Participants race on public roads over 300 to 800 kilometres of varied terrain. Checkpoints are set up where teams are evaluated on their time, speed and energy use."

:p

It's the ultimate rally series for makes, it just suffers with entertainment appeal and publicity.

[WRCStan]

Regular readers saying 'here he goes again'. I've been banging this drum since before even the FIA got with the beat.


Should it remain to be manufacturer driven class?
...
please just shut down talk of costs being too high for manufacturer brands. Bored of it. They don't think this way, it's either a necessary marketing strategy or it's not.
...
allow any entrants to enter cars constructed by any constructor
...
new manufacturers aren't coming without either the wider rules, organisation or structure changing. It's not just a formula thing.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Something has alienated Manufacturers from WRC / Rally 1 with no new ones joining since Toyota 10 years ago (and both Volkswagen and Citroen leaving).

But Rally2 has continued to have Manufacturers and new cars built in this same period (Fabia RS, GR Yaris, Lancia Integrale, plus Citroen, Ford and Hyundai still developing their old cars).

What does this tell you ?

[Ferranis]

Yes and no, we have manufacturers building cars, but not manufacturer teams in WRC2 that pay for everything (to my knowledge not many? None?).

The building cars part seems to be profitable, the runnings teams not so much. Last part compounts in Rally1

[deephouse]

It's the combination of many things why manufacturers does make those cars and not run them. More or less they do it at the start when they freshly build the car and then with competing they are boosting sales and when the numbers are right, they don't bother anymore. Also it's the coverage. WRC2 is barely mentioned. If they do run proper marketing and coverage for that category, those brands with not so many budget could easily compete there. Also if there would be like 5-6 brands with official entries, imagine how bad would that be on a image of WRC, since there is only 2 teams and a a half in main category. It could be completely overshadowed. For small brands like Lancia it the perfect to compete there. Also maybe Proton, M-Sport. Skoda could step up, they have unfinished business in the WRC and I think they could do very well. Imagine having battles with Toyota. I clearly see Skoda being on VW level. Hyundai sadly isn't nowhere near and I think it never will be.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tanak testing the Toyota WRC27 prototype in Finland now...

https://rallyjournal.com/wow-ott-tanak-sends-toyotas-new-rally-car-flying-in-finland/

[denkimi]

Yep, the materials used were the issue. Drivers were begging fans to return any aero that came off their cars during a rally as they cost a fortune to replace.

That could easily be fixed. ban the use of carbonfiber for anything not safety related and let them use fiberglass instead.

[Ferranis]

Tanak testing the Toyota WRC27 prototype in Finland now...

https://rallyjournal.com/wow-ott-tanak-sends-toyotas-new-rally-car-flying-in-finland/

Good luck competing with that if you are a team like RMC or RallyOne (or anyone for that matter). At the end they may have a year of testing / development head-start. Toyota will never be beaten in the WRC27 era

[WRCStan]

Something has alienated Manufacturers from WRC / Rally 1 with no new ones joining since Toyota 10 years ago (and both Volkswagen and Citroen leaving).

But Rally2 has continued to have Manufacturers and new cars built in this same period (Fabia RS, GR Yaris, Lancia Integrale, plus Citroen, Ford and Hyundai still developing their old cars).

What does this tell you ?

That customer rallying is big business and the manufacturers have enjoyed selling cars derived from production models into the sport, and that they don't want to do the sport themselves. WRC2 today has Lancia and M-Sport driven Ford, both fronts for customer racing, not for marketing production cars.

What did it all tell you?

[WRCStan]

Yes and no, we have manufacturers building cars, but not manufacturer teams in WRC2 that pay for everything (to my knowledge not many? None?).

The building cars part seems to be profitable, the runnings teams not so much. Last part compounts in Rally1

Consider this; Hyundai could contest WRC2 with no entry fee, but why would they when they shut down their workshop and didn't ship a car for over a year.

There's only Lancia paying to have their name in WRC2. In theory - I wouldn't be surprised if they cut a deal, which is why what comes next year is intriguing. They're also not compelled to do all rounds either and skipped Sweden and Kenya so far, no such luxury for WRC27 constructors.

[Ferranis]

I really, really, wonder how next year will pan out. Since it's only half a year now roughly until and we have not seen even one other WRC27 car.

Either we will have Toyota dominating or BOP'ed out of contention.

it's such an imbalance between Toyota and the other teams, how did we even end up here

[Ferranis]

And dominating or not, my god is this car boring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4T-lotbl0

Rally3 are more exciting...

[TypeR]

This Youtube shorts video takes it together:
https://youtube.com/shorts/pv5jVIZablw?si=Mi7XprL0FSgZuKQN

[deephouse]

And we still don't know what the situation be in WRC field. Those with WRC27 cars will pay higher fees, need to contest all rounds, and those with Rally2 will have cheaper and doesn't need to contest all. How that is competing alongside? Also if they will demand to Rally2 or WRC2 (if it will be around at all) to contest all rounds, many of them will not sign up for championship, since it will be too expensive.

I wonder now seeing Toyota testing their car, I agree it's a little boring, not exciting enough? Why they simply didn go with formula as the car would be somewhere between Rally1 and Rally2 on power, no expensive weird aero packs and have whatever they want (shape/segment). It would be cheaper than Rally1 and a little more expensive than Rally2 car. That way we could keep pinnacle, drivers wouldn't complain that much and the difference from Rally1 wouldn't be significant.

Toyota could dominate and probably will over tuners and Rally2 teams, but remember that sometimes tuners get right with building the car over the official manufacturer. It's just they will probably doesn't have a budget for likes as Ogier, Neuville or Tanak, except if those blokes will not have any other option.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That customer rallying is big business and the manufacturers have enjoyed selling cars derived from production models into the sport, and that they don't want to do the sport themselves. WRC2 today has Lancia and M-Sport driven Ford, both fronts for customer racing, not for marketing production cars.

What did it all tell you?

That that's exactly what put off the Manufacturer's from WRC / Rally 1. No business, no sales, all due to the crazy costs. Those Regs have been an abject failure in growing the top level of the sport.

[Ferranis]

And the costs will stay crazy next year. WRC could drive bicycles and Toyota would find a way to spend 100 million a year. Not hating Toyota though, they just play the game to perfection. I am glad they are there. This is a FIA / Promoter problem

[WRCStan]

That that's exactly what put off the Manufacturer's from WRC / Rally 1. No business, no sales, all due to the crazy costs. Those Regs have been an abject failure in growing the top level of the sport.

Disagree, but only because WRC+ and Rally1 were never meant to be customer classes. 3 or 4 teams was comfortably enough for the promoter - which is why I say promoter entries. Now we have 1 and two also-rans, it's not enough.

The crazy costs is a fair point, but there's no cost cutting or significant technical formula that's going to be attracting *new* road car manufacturers to *any* class even. Doesn't TypeR's video sum it up?

The fundamental question of this conversation remains why should road mobility production car manufacturers have a monopoly on supplying these race cars when their core business is the antithesis of speed and racing?

[Ferranis]

Still maybe a bit of stupid idea. But in my oppinion you need to go where racing or off-roading is the core business. High powered street cars like Ferrari / Lambo or jeeps (don't know the brands there). Maybe do both. Tarmac Championship, Gravel championship.

Or .. the cynical route. Let the Saudis buy WRC and inject 5 bazillions like in Dakar ^^

[PLuto]

Then it's basically the promoter's entries. If WRC was a promoter-less cup, how many would we see? None, times have changed for car companies and we don't see them in ERC and nationals like days of old.

There were not manufacturers in ERC or national championships, it was dealer teams, which is different. Manufacturers are interested mainly about highest category and homologating the cars. But if the promotion of the championship is shit and they are not able to promote the sport in proper way, there is no interest in joining. From manufacturers, from potential sponsors. There were some of them trying to join, but when they see how it is working...

[WRCStan]

Ferrari / Lambo

Surely not going to come if a production run of 25,000 4 seats models rule is in place.

[WRCStan]

But if the promotion of the championship is shit and they are not able to promote the sport in proper way, there is no interest in joining. From manufacturers, from potential sponsors. There were some of them trying to join, but when they see how it is working...

Sorry but how it's working is what everyone must accept is that it's working. Just about for now, but assuming there's a new promoter coming also assumes it'll continue working this way.

We shouldn't confuse sports promotion with publicity especially for ESL speakers here, and specifically publicity of the competitors sponsors. It's another archaic fallacy. It's not the job of WRC Promoter to publicise the entrants' sponsors. Sure it can be part of an unwritten bilateral win, but didn't the promoter's sponsor Hankook ban one of the entrants from taking to a stage recently as it had a rival's sponsor?

FIA are happy with this kind of deal and many Red Bulls were sold during this promoter's stint and WRC2/3 participation is also generally healthy throughout. So is it shit promotion? Promoter done good! Do you realistically expect this kind of arrangement to change? Have it go back to a cup where the regs have to 'attract' participation? Don't have any TV rights or commercial deals... Don't have anybody broadcasting it even?

Not a chance. Look at WRX for what happens when a promoter goes walkies.

[240RS]

Yet another constructor/tuner rumoured to be eyeing a 2027 entry.

Question is: Will all these new entries have any meaningful impact, championship-wise?

https://www.instagram.com/p/DYXHby3RPk7/?igsh=MXZxdmFreGFqbjQzcw==

[deephouse]

I see it that way. If there will be many tuners, some may do well. Maybe later on they could persuade manufacturers into the sport and back them up. Wouldn't be that easier for manufacturers?

[Ferranis]

I really hope they will have an impact. Realistically though they all will perform worse then M-Sport and most likely quit quite quickly.

Since how do they even expect to be financed? Car sales for sure not, there is no market for 50 WRC27 and why should one buy a RallyOne when one could buy a Toyota

[trykmann]

I really hope they will have an impact. Realistically though they all will perform worse then M-Sport and most likely quit quite quickly.

Since how do they even expect to be financed? Car sales for sure not, there is no market for 50 WRC27 and why should one buy a RallyOne when one could buy a Toyota

I think yoy may be underestimating the amount on Rally2 cars being owned by small private teams. At some point the current Rally2 cars will be outdated and they have to buy something new. If the WRC27 is in a similar price range, then it would not be a bad decision.

[deephouse]

Do Rally2 cars have budget cap? I know that they vary in prices. I'm afraid that with WRC27 the story will be different. All of them will go to the absolute maximum, 345,000. But the performance could be very different. And we could end up with Toyota having huge sales and everyone else nothing.

[Ferranis]

I would wager people will be reluctant to switch until the WR27 are proven. And in general why should they if their Rally2 is still competetive (to take FIA by the word here, reality will be interesting)

[EstWRC]

And dominating or not, my god is this car boring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4T-lotbl0

Rally3 are more exciting...

I remember certain members here repeating all the time “the top drivers will make the cars look interesting by pushing them to the limit”

So guys, we have many videos by now with one of the fastest guys testing the Toyota and are you still saying the same?

For me it’s just painful to watch

[Ferranis]

I remember certain members here repeating all the time “the top drivers will make the cars look interesting by pushing them to the limit”

So guys, we have many videos by now with one of the fastest guys testing the Toyota and are you still saying the same?

For me it’s just painful to watch

The car now also had quite some testing, it can't be the still the very first iteration. Or with other words: It most likely will not be that much different in Monte (Body shell excluded).

I can understand the reasoning that the competition will make it exciting, but Rally is a audio-visual sport. Having this kind of boring cars must have an inpact.

For example: Even as a super fan I will go from yearly WRC+ payment to monthly, since I expect to cancel mid season. Watching that is not worth nearly 150€ a year

[deephouse]

It's cheaper if you go monthly. Monthly full price is 12,99 and you do it exactly when the rally starts and have until that day next month. So if a rally begins on 22 january and subscribe it on that day, subscription is valid until 22 february. If you look on WRC calendar 2026, almost all rallies are linked by two, so even if you would do that for a whole year, you would pay only 8 times and it gets you around 20 cheaper than (even with 25% save as 9,99 month). It's a thing for many years now. I do it simply because I don't subscribe for all year, but just some events and get 2 for one.

[Ferranis]

It's cheaper if you go monthly. Monthly full price is 12,99 and you do it exactly when the rally starts and have until that day next month. So if a rally begins on 22 january and subscribe it on that day, subscription is valid until 22 february. If you look on WRC calendar 2026, almost all rallies are linked by two, so even if you would do that for a whole year, you would pay only 8 times and it gets you around 20 cheaper than (even with 25% save as 9,99 month). It's a thing for many years now. I do it simply because I don't subscribe for all year, but just some events and get 2 for one.

Many thanks for the information <3

Doesn't surprise me that there are such kinds of loopholes. WRC+ was and is a mess. At one year I got a whole year for free to keep me as a customer, since I had problems with payment and had to deal with the customer service for many weeks

[Sulland]

Do Rally2 cars have budget cap? I know that they vary in prices. I'm afraid that with WRC27 the story will be different. All of them will go to the absolute maximum, 345,000. But the performance could be very different. And we could end up with Toyota having huge sales and everyone else nothing.


It used to be 168 000 euro from the beginning of R5. For 1 car with either gravel or asphalt setup and no spares.
This sum was at some stage allowed to be index adjusted.

I think I saw a used Toyota Rally2 for sale for 270 000. Not sure how much spares or both undertrays was included.
So wuth both undertrays and a spares pack, it will get close to 345 000 Euro here as well.

Here we have one above 345k; https://rallycarsforsale.net/ads/toyota-yaris-rally2-006/

[wyler]

Many thanks for the information <3

Doesn't surprise me that there are such kinds of loopholes. WRC+ was and is a mess. At one year I got a whole year for free to keep me as a customer, since I had problems with payment and had to deal with the customer service for many weeks

i'm a bit confused. i pay 89,99€ a year

[wyler]

It used to be 168 000 euro from the beginning of R5. For 1 car with either gravel or asphalt setup and no spares.
This sum was at some stage allowed to be index adjusted.

I think I saw a used Toyota Rally2 for sale for 270 000. Not sure how much spares or both undertrays was included.
So wuth both undertrays and a spares pack, it will get close to 345 000 Euro here as well.

Here we have one above 345k; https://rallycarsforsale.net/ads/toyota-yaris-rally2-006/

the cap for the basic version is 200k. conversion kit, spare parts, upgrades & gadgets raise to 300-350.

[Ferranis]

i'm a bit confused. i pay 89,99€ a year

In Germany it's 119.99€ a year. Exaggerated a bit, but it gets closer and closer to 150€ over the years

[denkimi]

I remember certain members here repeating all the time “the top drivers will make the cars look interesting by pushing them to the limit”

So guys, we have many videos by now with one of the fastest guys testing the Toyota and are you still saying the same?

For me it’s just painful to watch
All it needs is sound.

if they went to screaming atmospheric v6 engines it would look a lot faster despite it most likely being a lot slower.

[denkimi]

and why should one buy a RallyOne when one could buy a Toyota
maybe because they will be in short supply. toyota seems to build only about 30 rally2 cars a year.

[deephouse]

What if they play fair game and don't want to lure out the remaining brands of the market. I mean probably Skoda can't be beaten, but Lancia have crisis to even survive as brand. Hyundai and M-Sport are not very active on that sector, Peugeot, Citroen and Volkswagen are no longer making those cars, so if Toyota would take all it would be bad. They are the real players, also it's nice to see many variants of those cars.

[Ferranis]

maybe because they will be in short supply. toyota seems to build only about 30 rally2 cars a year.

Most likely in short supply, but dishing out 400k for an unproven und un-competitive RallyOne / RMC, I don't see it. Then I would stay with my Rally2 (if I had one :D)

[AndersX]

This week's Rally Scandinavia willl be excellent preview of 2027 WRC - massive competition on beautiful gravel roads - worth to watch as R2 is expected to be faster than 2027 model cars.

[Ferranis]

Absolutely devestating comments below each WRC27 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbo2I-n_r30

[WRCStan]

I hope those commenters didn't vote for it. A universal customer class car was what the people wanted, and it's what they will get. It shows though why RC1 will return down the line.

However, a car in development is not always going to be ran flat out. Sometimes it's just hours and Kms, though more likely at validation and not needing Tanak. Don't read too much into it. The real judgement will come on the stages in competition.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier's decision for next year will speak volumes about the WRC27 Car.

If I were Toyota (or the WRC Promoter) I'd do everything to convince him to continue. That would do a huge amount for the image of the new cars.

If he retires and gives his main reason as the new cars that will be quite an indictment.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I remember certain members here repeating all the time “the top drivers will make the cars look interesting by pushing them to the limit”

So guys, we have many videos by now with one of the fastest guys testing the Toyota and are you still saying the same?

For me it’s just painful to watch

Tanak may be a different story, given he has such a lot still to gain in terms of WDCs. As long as the new car can win him the Title he will be in it regardless of how it looks and sounds.

[wyler]

Most likely in short supply, but dishing out 400k for an unproven und un-competitive RallyOne / RMC, I don't see it. Then I would stay with my Rally2 (if I had one :D)

rally2 will end its homologation cycle in a few years (around 2030). then there will be a need for a replacement that will be wrc27, with some mileage under the belt.

[wyler]

I hope those commenters didn't vote for it. A universal customer class car was what the people wanted, and it's what they will get. It shows though why RC1 will return down the line.

However, a car in development is not always going to be ran flat out. Sometimes it's just hours and Kms, though more likely at validation and not needing Tanak. Don't read too much into it. The real judgement will come on the stages in competition.

it's just the standard complaining about novelty. it happens every time. then as the season approach and development goes one, with a bit of real bodywork and colours, the excitement grows.

[Ferranis]

it's just the standard complaining about novelty. it happens every time. then as the season approach and development goes one, with a bit of real bodywork and colours, the excitement grows.

I doubt that. WRC27 are Rally2 cars with extra steps. They won't suddenly get more powerful or audio-visually more exciting.

WRC27 might be good regs for Rally2, but for the top class its as if F1 would drive with F2 cars

[Jewy46]

This is what (most) people wanted.
Since the Rally1 era started many on this forum, and other comments on all platforms have been calling for Rally2 to become the top class because of the equal machinery, lower cost and (supposed) more competition. Well WRC27 is the follow on from Rally2 so what people have been calling for is now going to become reality.

I was never fully sold about it, if I am honest, but I did understand the argument. I do really hope some of the other cars being built turn out to sound nicer than the Toyota, as this would help immensely, the 3 cylinder just sounds so flat to me.

I will really miss the drama of the Rally1 cars which were a follow on from the most exciting cars ever IMO (WRC17) but things must move on. I just hope it is in the right direction.
I actually feel for the rule makers (I know most people do not) as I feel they had to try something and they were damned no matter what way they went about it.

Anyway here we are and I will continue to follow rallying until my dying breath. I'm not so sure about others.

[Ferranis]

I have a really hard time to be objective around next years rules to be honest, since I am a WRC17 super-fan. Hope it turns out well, but I expect it will be a hard sell for new fans. Old fans will stay more or less no matter what

[saco0o]

its going to be fine, fellas.
ask the ERC fans here. its totally ok, no joke.
cars may be slower but you get over it once theres other stories to pay attention - and there will be.
its like when f1 change stuff. people go crazy and talk & complain for months but then the focus shift to whats happening in the championship. its not a dramatic change like "we are going Evs, theres only 7 cars, 6 rounds and nobody can watch it"

[Ferranis]

Let's just hope that there are not that many people that think like me. High powered cars are a major part of WRC excitement for me and when I look in the past: Group B is so much loved for a reason.

But be it as it may: Currently there is no alternative anyway. WRC got devalued by the promoter / fia that much, that this is the only way forward

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Let's just hope that there are not that many people that think like me. High powered cars are a major part of WRC excitement for me and when I look in the past: Group B is so much loved for a reason.

But be it as it may: Currently there is no alternative anyway. WRC got devalued by the promoter / fia that much, that this is the only way forward

It will never be a big a change as 1987 was, with the switch to Gp A after the Gp B monsters. Plus they were banned for safety, not changed because they needed more Manufacturers!

Look at the Monte Carlo entry list for the cars we had to 'enjoy' ...

https://ewrc-results.com/event/1576-rallye-automobile-monte-carlo-1987/entries

[doubled1978]

It will never be a big a change as 1987 was, with the switch to Gp A after the Gp B monsters. Plus they were banned for safety, not changed because they needed more Manufacturers!

Look at the Monte Carlo entry list for the cars we had to 'enjoy' ...

https://ewrc-results.com/event/1576-rallye-automobile-monte-carlo-1987/entries

1987 was rough. The RAC rally was poor, made worse by the fact that the only team that had any hope of challenging Lancia, Mazda, didn’t turn up.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

1987 was rough. The RAC rally was poor, made worse by the fact that the only team that had any hope of challenging Lancia, Mazda, didn’t turn up.

Also in the '87 BRC, Jimmy McRae started the season in a Lancia Delta HF owned by Lancia UKs director, with just a roll-cage fitted ! What a come down from the Group B beasts he'd had before.

[WRCStan]

I doubt that. WRC27 are Rally2 cars with extra steps. They won't suddenly get more powerful or audio-visually more exciting.

Wrong. There's only engine and powertrain in common. IF there's a flush new promoter than they could announce a RC2+ tune up in performance immediately for Rally1, and possibly full step up coming in a few years. In safety the chasses and cells are designed for a higher performance.

This level was set to immediately get more competition and as a back stop for life without a flush promoter.

[Ferranis]

I expect (hope) that this will be the case. That we only have to suffer a year or two and then the new promoter ups the performance

[WRCStan]

^ Agree.

Brand new cars to last for decades and the Rally2 or Rally2 sourced - whatever it is - engine is not the long term sole solution.

[Ferranis]

They wanted to open the power train anyway with hybrid / electric. Hope its power too they want to increase at some point.

Now the crucial part is actually retaining the new teams (tuners), allowing them to grow to make this financially viable

[SubaruNorway]

This week's Rally Scandinavia willl be excellent preview of 2027 WRC - massive competition on beautiful gravel roads - worth to watch as R2 is expected to be faster than 2027 model cars.

I'm skipping it this year, was always left wanting some more, it's just like a Norwegian event with a few more fast cars, YT views are not great either

[doubled1978]

I remember. I forget what happened with the supposed Lancia deal, but he obviously ended up with Ford.

[wyler]

I doubt that. WRC27 are Rally2 cars with extra steps. They won't suddenly get more powerful or audio-visually more exciting.

WRC27 might be good regs for Rally2, but for the top class its as if F1 would drive with F2 cars

I do remember the first test of the rally1, people were complaining about this and that (hybrid, weight, less aero, less damper, etc). time of the monte they were okish, time the next monte they were normal. now we are complaining about leaving them! : )

[Ferranis]

I do remember the first test of the rally1, people were complaining about this and that (hybrid, weight, less aero, less damper, etc). time of the monte they were okish, time the next monte they were normal. now we are complaining about leaving them! : )


A lot of complaining was valid though. Hybrid implementation was stupid, leading to them being too heavy among other things. Aero was valid, since they made the cars look much more boring (in my oppinion. Toyota was ok, Hyundai and Ford were not - let's also not talk about the hybrid inlets here, horrible). Damper was pretty inconsequencial.

The hybrid and weight problem got fixed and the Aero got also a bit better on the Hyundai and in general without the hybrid inlets

I personally would not miss the Rally1 that much if we would still have a 100 hybrid failures each rally. Imagine this with the 100 tire failures now :D

[EstWRC]

This week's Rally Scandinavia willl be excellent preview of 2027 WRC - massive competition on beautiful gravel roads - worth to watch as R2 is expected to be faster than 2027 model cars.

Massive competition? Really?

[skarderud]

Massive competition? Really?Well, should be around 15 teams aiming for top5, in the "holy" rally1 its 5 toyotas in the same place.
Much better in all means.

This weekends rally in sweden is what i think i rally2 based wrc would be like, so if you dont think it would be cool, just watch the rally and jugde after.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[wyler]

A lot of complaining was valid though. Hybrid implementation was stupid, leading to them being too heavy among other things. Aero was valid, since they made the cars look much more boring (in my oppinion. Toyota was ok, Hyundai and Ford were not - let's also not talk about the hybrid inlets here, horrible). Damper was pretty inconsequencial.

The hybrid and weight problem got fixed and the Aero got also a bit better on the Hyundai and in general without the hybrid inlets

I personally would not miss the Rally1 that much if we would still have a 100 hybrid failures each rally. Imagine this with the 100 tire failures now :D

maybe, in details, but that wasn't the point.
the general mood is that nobody really left the sport because of the new regs, even if it started with lots of negative (by fans & drivers)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Massive competition? Really?

Definitely and worth a watch with your guy Vaher who has just gone fastest so far in FP1.

[wyler]

just watch the rally and jugde after.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

i'm not so optimistic, so let's keep this in mind also if we have the same top10 all around the race!

[trykmann]

Definitely and worth a watch with your guy Vaher who has just gone fastest so far in FP1.

Second pass also quickest
https://ewrc-results.com/event/98087-bauhaus-royal-rally-of-scandinavia-2026/shakedown?tab=fp

[Kenneth]

^ Agree.

Brand new cars to last for decades and the Rally2 or Rally2 sourced - whatever it is - engine is not the long term sole solution.

It totally is long term solution, more so when the regs are designed for future flexibility in mind.

Rally2 sourced engine is just fancy phrasing for road-car derived engines, which is imo important.

FIA can anytime allow other displacement than 1.6T, and they hinted they will in future, as well alternative powertrains. They just need to develop some good way of balance of power (they already say they don't want balance of performance ala circuit racing).

At this point it's a platform that allows just Rally2-like cars (not just powertrain, basically everything but chassis and suspension is same spec as Rally2 rn). But the platform allows to do almost anything with the cars.

[EstWRC]

Well, should be around 15 teams aiming for top5, in the "holy" rally1 its 5 toyotas in the same place.
Much better in all means.

This weekends rally in sweden is what i think i rally2 based wrc would be like, so if you dont think it would be cool, just watch the rally and jugde after.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

Ok if an entry list with two just big names, Suninen and Sesks is a massive competition for you then you have really low standards.

And why you guys say every time “go and watch it”
I have been to plenty of rallies and watched also plenty in my life and I don’t get it how this one rally now suddenly should change my view.

And about Vaher, I’m telling ya he is the real deal

[speederbee]

I wonder if more manufacturers participate if the WRC had more tarmac than gravel. Personally I like gravel rallies, but, in my part of the world gravel roads are so rare that most people here probably don't know they even exist. I see why the marketing people could think it's not good advertising. Maybe a mostly tarmac WRC would interest the likes of Porsche, BMW, etc.

[AndersX]

Massive competition? Really?
What would be massive in your understanding - amount of similar fast cars and drivers as runners in the Boston Marathon?
I have watched ERC live, there are many fast drivers, plus check the startlist for this rally - very high levele competition. Plus, by some interesting reason, there is a new gen of swe drivers that are rising fast.

[AndersX]

Well, should be around 15 teams aiming for top5, in the "holy" rally1 its 5 toyotas in the same place.
Much better in all means.

This weekends rally in sweden is what i think i rally2 based wrc would be like, so if you dont think it would be cool, just watch the rally and jugde after.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

100%!

[AndersX]

Ok if an entry list with two just big names, Suninen and Sesks is a massive competition for you then you have really low standards.

And why you guys say every time “go and watch it”
I have been to plenty of rallies and watched also plenty in my life and I don’t get it how this one rally now suddenly should change my view.

And about Vaher, I’m telling ya he is the real deal

The point is - 2027 will look like this weekend, just with some 10 more fast drivers in addition. I have a feeling that in 2027 getting into top 10 will be challanging. That means - very fast driving on the edge with tech that wont forgive mistakes.

[trykmann]

The point is - 2027 will look like this weekend, just with some 10 more fast drivers in addition. I have a feeling that in 2027 getting into top 10 will be challanging. That means - very fast driving on the edge with tech that wont forgive mistakes.

That is what we want. Right now if you change a tyre you could still end up on 4th or 5th place.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ok if an entry list with two just big names, Suninen and Sesks is a massive competition for you then you have really low standards.

l

Your 2 big names weren't in the top 3 in Qualifying (P4 &P5).

And the rest of the top 10 were within tenths of them.

[EstWRC]

Your 2 big names weren't in the top 3 in Qualifying (P4 &P5).

And the rest of the top 10 were within tenths of them.

Nice try

First of all, they aren’t my big names, they are most known I saw on the entry list, don’t care if they are there or not

Second of all, yeah let’s make conclusions already based on qualifying stage.

Third, this is off topic anyway

[deephouse]

I wonder if more manufacturers participate if the WRC had more tarmac than gravel. Personally I like gravel rallies, but, in my part of the world gravel roads are so rare that most people here probably don't know they even exist. I see why the marketing people could think it's not good advertising. Maybe a mostly tarmac WRC would interest the likes of Porsche, BMW, etc.

Definetely should be at least one event with mixed surface on calendar. If the car is capable of driving on paved roads and gravel, snow and ice, it's capable racing on both surfaceS withing the weekend. Also if the team is capable transforming car for different surface, it's capable to do it on the same weekend. There is no excuses.

if there were half tarmac events they need to be different, so the championship wouldn't became too boring.

SUVs was meant to be the car for driving on gravel, rough terrain. Funny is that WRC happen on mostly that type of surface. And brands do actually seel only those kind of cars, so they should be following that path and promote their products as they fit perfectly into that.

[WRCStan]

It totally is long term solution, more so when the regs are designed for future flexibility in mind.

Rally2 sourced engine is just fancy phrasing for road-car derived engines, which is imo important.

I'm open to the spec, in the same way that the body has to be within the set volume.

But disagree that it has to go through group A first, 2,500 examples etc, when it's only the block being used - just a lump of metal - and road designed displacement is often ignored anyway as everything that bolts to it is made for purpose as it all transforms into a racing engine! With 10% by 2035 and manufs divesting their engine building because they don't want to be associated with them, the pool of potential suppliers is too small and the wrong crowd. And if a Horse can supply an engine (like it is supplying that Chevrolet a few pages back), why can't a pony provide engines that are built for purpose? That's the philosophy of all this.

It doesn't make sense. And market forces work so much better than cost caps on a very small group of disinterested suppliers.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Nice try

First of all, they aren’t my big names, they are most known I saw on the entry list, don’t care if they are there or not

Second of all, yeah let’s make conclusions already based on qualifying stage.

Third, this is off topic anyway

Not trying anything just replying and you were discussing it in this thread.

PS. The two 'names' arent even in the top 10 on SS1. The rally is competitive.... like WRC 27 should be.

PPS. Vaher fastest on SS1... you wouldnt like this possibility in WRC ?

[Kenneth]

You know what, in WRC it would be fluke, luck, better road position, crash incoming every second, etc.

Also it would just show how bad WRC become if Neuville and Ogier would be outside of top 5, all about a luck now /s

[saco0o]

Massive competition? Really?

mate, cmoon: suninen, marczyk, sesks, mabelini, creighton, matulka, tempestini, isak, calle, allen (meeeh lol), brynildsen, heikkila, semenuk

if this is not an impressive entry list i'd argue you are missing out on A LOT of fun by not watching something outside wrc =P

[Ferranis]

If only the Rally2 cars were not that boring for me personally. A shame, but I just can't watch them without going to sleep. They need a reset too in my opinion. The initial iteration of them, the R5 were wonderful cars: https://youtu.be/IbdD6T6hLz0?t=25

[wyler]

Not trying anything just replying and you were discussing it in this thread.

PS. The two 'names' arent even in the top 10 on SS1. The rally is competitive.... like WRC 27 should be.

PPS. Vaher fastest on SS1... you wouldnt like this possibility in WRC ?

point is all about context. erc and wrc are way apart.

this may be a good (or massive) competition for the erc level, but it doesn't mean wrc will be the same. wrc level is way ahead i fear.
take top5 in sweden now: 2 super local expert +3 "wrc" material - but not prime material. suninen didn't really make it at top level, sesks is struggling after a brilliant entry. vaher is the toyota bet for the future, all to be discovered. they're already getting a gap to anyone else after 1 loop, just a couple of the super local are fighting.

to me, it looks very like what we have now. wrc2 with good competition, around 10 drivers "top tier" in rally1 (that will remain ahead), possibly some surprises (sesk, armstrong, possibly vaher in the future). i don't see different cars erasing this drivers difference.

[Ferranis]

I think the school of thought that we will have more competition next year due to more drivers having "equal" machienery will be quite disappointed. WRC1 drivers are in the WRC1 for a reason. The only thing hat will happen is that the gap between WRC1 and WRC2 is not that big on average

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Thing is, even with the very top guys in Rally 1 cars, there is still seem as not enough competition as the Toyota is a different level to the Hyundai & Ford.

Of course there's always been car differences, but the level can still be closer with many makes of Rally2 & WRC27. The top guys will still be the top guys but there's still possibilities for more locals and new stars to challenge them.

[WRCStan]

The higher the likelihood of a larger field, the lower the likelihood of the top guys being there. And that has nothing to do with the top guys running scared.

[deephouse]

Many of guys being in top wasn't supposed being there as their results did prove why were they there.