WRC mainclass from 2027

[saco0o]

just to clarify my thoughts on that part: these discussions have been going on for a while. wrc has two manufacturers participating. during all the meetings to decide whats next, one of these 2 brands start to say around that they may leave depending on what direction the rules goes (because they know where the decisions are heading, they are on the meetings). if they didnt cared about losing hyundai to define this set of rules is probably because there was more people om this table agreeing with them. not saying new manufacturers per se, but at least other teams, for sure. otherwise they'd keep some efforts to please hyundai too, like they did when they cancelled the ditching of hybrid at that first time.
does that make sense? im thinking more of some wrc2/erc/middle-east teams thinking "yep, we can enter rally1 with these cheaper cars", not actual factory teams.

[deephouse]

just to clarify my thoughts on that part: these discussions have been going on for a while. wrc has two manufacturers participating. during all the meetings to decide whats next, one of these 2 brands start to say around that they may leave depending on what direction the rules goes (because they know where the decisions are heading, they are on the meetings). if they didnt cared about losing hyundai to define this set of rules is probably because there was more people om this table agreeing with them. not saying new manufacturers per se, but at least other teams, for sure. otherwise they'd keep some efforts to please hyundai too, like they did when they cancelled the ditching of hybrid at that first time.
does that make sense? im thinking more of some wrc2/erc/middle-east teams thinking "yep, we can enter rally1 with these cheaper cars", not actual factory teams.

But you must understand that Hyundai threat of quitting for several years now. Practically every time when changes are on table or not. They gave them jokers, been late on development and demand some stuff constantly. Why? So they will quit anyway? (No matter how they say, they want more competition) Why would they listen only them? When there is one team, which is really trying to be in the sport on a year basis without proper support and by the way are the most loyal in the history of the sport.

[becher]

So the cars will be spec or just like now with a spec roll cage structure integrated into the chassis?

[PLuto]

i think it was just cool to listen. as someone actvely involved in the sport and on these decisions, one can feel Andrew is more optimistic about the sport than most fans have been over these last years, 'uknow? dave evans knows when to 'cut' him shortly when he starts to spiral into some P.R. bs but at the same time, dave represented us fans, filled with doubts, questions and negative views about every little thing. it was an interesting dynamic. its almost like I was there complaining and asking questions lol

on the rules it was more or less the expected. FIA wants more safety so thats why they went space frame. homologations will be simpler. they will use these rules for 10 years. these new rules were decided among several stakeholders trying to find a better cheaper way for the sport. i even got the impression that there was more people involved on these meetings (nothing specific, but i left hoping theres potential new entries for the future, who knows!). they talked about rally2 being so good and so much cheap that several "rich" drivers simply didnt wanted to go wrc or rally1 car and that was one of the reasons why we lost entries on the top class, but now the top cars will be cheaper, more people will jump (so... rally2s will only win a wrc event if all "rally1' crash. Thierry was speaking non-sense). they talked about the lack of direction for road cars (ice, hybrid, evs, hydrogen) so the obvious decision was to have them all, since the world is not going full EV, theres going to have space for every type of engines. dave asked about "shouldnt we go EV to be ahead? hybrids exist since the 90's, we were so late to the game" and Andrew say that they would have to change way too much the sport in order to accomodate evs, so they need to wait a few more years until the technology is at the right level for a rallying event. they talked about "lack of promotion, cuz drivers are not national heroes anymore, on newspaper covers" but c'moon, that boat has sailed, Dave. 'people dont follow 3 day events, shouldnt we change everything?". Andrew says that best way to get someone hooked into rally is to bring them to the stages. Andrew mentions that the past regulations (17 and 22) never had budget cap, so the costs went crazy (from expensiver lighter bolts to more engineers analysing data, probably), but now they will do it right. i feel they kinda 'regreat' going for hybrids, maybe?

they briefly talked about world rx... not sure dave knows something but apparently maybe FIA itself can take over the promotion... i didnt understand that tbf. anyway, nothing special, it was just cool to listen these two chatting as a whole

Thank you for summary.

[PLuto]

But you must understand that Hyundai threat of quitting for several years now. Practically every time when changes are on table or not. They gave them jokers, been late on development and demand some stuff constantly. Why? So they will quit anyway? (No matter how they say, they want more competition) Why would they listen only them? When there is one team, which is really trying to be in the sport on a year basis without proper support and by the way are the most loyal in the history of the sport.

It is sure for long time that Hyundai will stay until the end of 2026. Question is the next future...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5z9TWhGhgF7FlpFxjXTK97?si=zX7uUtUiQcCfd9SXRsM-jw%0A
Andrew Wheatley talking about his departure and next gen rules. a good listen to be fair

It was very good and interesting to hear from someone who's been on the inside while all the discussions were going on about the future of WRC.

[saco0o]

idk whats the future but i'd love to see hyundai continuing without Cyril and racing this new car >> https://youtu.be/x_CkztJ4PHk?feature=shared

add renault, al atyah, chicherit and prodrive (theyre partners in dakar, right?) with this new car https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/5/365366/new-renault-5-turbo-3e-500bhp-electric-hot-hatch-enter-limited-production

plus msport, toyota, skoda (cmoon, ia just a matter of building/buying the space frame) and we start to get some excitment back! lol

[Sulland]

Now the Manufacturers say the cost cap figure isnt feasible...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-teams-warn-2027-car-cost-cap-isnt-feasible/

Sorry, make it work, or say go one level down.
if we had put all top drivers in Rally3 cars, after a few rallies we would continue to chear, and enjoy the fights!

[Steve Boyd]

You are talking about 30 years old history. Also basic rally cars were made in different style. Now everything is on the limits with balance between price/weight/endurance.Increasing the engine power has less of an effect on driveshafts and differentials than you might expect. The most torque you can put on a driveshaft (apart from shock loading) is the torque needed to spin the wheels. I'd guess that the torque needed to spin a dry tarmac rally tyre on dry tarmac would be higher than that needed to spin a more heavily treaded RX tyre so the loading in RX use may actually be less than in rally use. RX events are much shorter than WRC events so I wouldn't be surprised if they would only need the same number of rebuilds in a season.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Neuville says the divers weren't on the discussion panel and voted No to the new Regs...

https://rallyjournal.com/big-concerns-over-wrc-overhaul-champions-shocking-perspective/

[saco0o]

Neuville says the divers weren't on the discussion panel and voted No to the new Regs...

https://rallyjournal.com/big-concerns-over-wrc-overhaul-champions-shocking-perspective/

employees shouldnt have a vote since they are not the ones putting the money where their mouth is, to be fair.
i still see these decisions as a way to bring more teams and privateers. we have thousand of R5s out there, so people HAVE the money, in a way. Andrew Wheatley even said the reason we lost privateers was because the price. when (2012) the price gap between "rally2 and rally1' (whatever the names of the classes back then) was "smaller", we saw more drivers trying out to move up. we lost that. it is 100% positive to have a top class with simpler cheaper cars. the top guns dont want to lose their reign. they want to get their milion bucks to compete. they dont want others interfering on their way to the top.
....its a classical thing eh? WHEN THE PEASANTS START TO HAVE A SHOT, THE ELITE GETS BOTHERED!
hahahahahahahah i said this as a joke but ehhhh theres some truth to that?? hahahah

[EstWRC]

Loriaux not happy

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loriaux-warns-2027-wrc-regulations-are-already-too-late/

[deephouse]

Loriaux not happy

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loriaux-warns-2027-wrc-regulations-are-already-too-late/

So again Hyundai complaining. I hope that they will not change everything againg because of them. To me it looks like it's only excuses to them to leave completely. I bet Toyota and M-Sport will do it without major issues, and hyundai with all that resources ''can't''.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Loriaux not happy

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loriaux-warns-2027-wrc-regulations-are-already-too-late/

His argument about the engines is fair. The current road-car based Rally2 engines cant go on.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The Dirtfish writers have their say...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/is-the-wrc-heading-in-the-right-direction/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3jSdoUS8VKCQgWIwjMWf2f uDo9d00n41pMiCOsV06Y17apqD3NpxlgDhg_aem_cdBjo7qILI TLlGrRebVpUA

[saco0o]

soooo... dakar/w2rc cars to be allowed in wrc, erc too?
https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/rally-dakar-wrc/

[pedro16]

soooo... dakar/w2rc cars to be allowed in wrc, erc too?
https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/rally-dakar-wrc/

December 28th... Día de los santos inocentes.
Spanish equivalent of April fools.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ben Sulayem apologises...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-president-apologizes-for-lack-of-wrc-fixes/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhLSGEtW0AAY7d9?format=jpg&name=medium

[rallyfiend]

Ben Sulayem apologises...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-president-apologizes-for-lack-of-wrc-fixes/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhLSGEtW0AAY7d9?format=jpg&name=medium

Why on earth would anyone want MBS more involved in anything?

He leaves a trail of mess everywhere he goes.

[saco0o]

its election's year at FIA, hes just "kissing babies" in public

[Maui J.]

Interesting article on Dirtfish about Hayden Paddon running his own team under WRC2027 regulations.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/paddon-attracted-by-wrcs-future-but-not-as-a-driver/

The most interesting part was this quote...
“These new rules that have been announced for ‘27 are definitely of interest and definitely create opportunities for people like us to potentially build and run our own cars,” Paddon told DirtFish.

So if the FIA has dropped the manufacturers consent/homolagation rules this will open up the potential for private teams/tuners like Paddon's to build and run their own cars. Not sure what he would build though, he has strong connections with Hyundai New Zealand so that would conflict with the current factory team (if they are still involved by then). Maybe KIA, as it comes under the Hyundai umbrella.

On this same topic, what ever happened to the large building Petter Solberg build? There were rumours that he was going to build his own cars. Back in 2020 he's quoted as saying he was in talks with two manufactures to build and run their cars but I think Covid put an end to that. Any updates on this?

[deephouse]

Interesting article on Dirtfish about Hayden Paddon running his own team under WRC2027 regulations.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/paddon-attracted-by-wrcs-future-but-not-as-a-driver/

The most interesting part was this quote...
“These new rules that have been announced for ‘27 are definitely of interest and definitely create opportunities for people like us to potentially build and run our own cars,” Paddon told DirtFish.

So if the FIA has dropped the manufacturers consent/homolagation rules this will open up the potential for private teams/tuners like Paddon's to build and run their own cars. Not sure what he would build though, he has strong connections with Hyundai New Zealand so that would conflict with the current factory team (if they are still involved by then). Maybe KIA, as it comes under the Hyundai umbrella.

On this same topic, what ever happened to the large building Petter Solberg build? There were rumours that he was going to build his own cars. Back in 2020 he's quoted as saying he was in talks with two manufactures to build and run their cars but I think Covid put an end to that. Any updates on this?

Guess that Toyota happens. I think he was aiming at Subaru and all that talk around them at that time. Still fingers crossed that it's possible.

About Hayden. If Hyundai will leave he could take over their "project" and being in charge of Hyundai in rallying at the top level. But I don't think that will be Neuville there since their stormy past. Joke aside.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Still a lot of uncertainty and discussions to be had, says Rich Millener.

Also getting new cars ready for 2027 and at €345k is ambitious, plus new Manufacturers not guaranteed.

https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-team-boss-gave-his-honest-take-on-the-series-ambitious-target-there-is-still-some-discussion-to-be-had-there/

[saco0o]

the americans are also trying to do something about their top class. Not sure a 200k is the answer for them tho.....

https://dirtfish.com/rally/ara/details-revealed-about-revolutionary-arc2-car/?fbclid=IwY2xjawJvklBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHqPhyNHwzzhs NjjaVx2eB73DB0FQsWA6lTZJ1y6w_tSxawV3T1sLt3O84UAI_a em_a8vZPCzB6juLMDydjjnKyA

[Dimitris]

They're making a 2nd class car that costs almost as much as a Rally2. No thanks.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latvala confirms Rally2 will be the only option if/when Hyundai withdraws:

https://rallyjournal.com/jari-matti-latvala-made-a-firm-statement-on-hyundais-possible-tough-decision-then-there-are-no-alternatives/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR775GrKZPACEs8BgZEkAVqv LwPjPOWpgWZQljjYhIUA9A38rIKQyXeHZY2uMQ_aem_NcDU2Wb zMcccB4s0_6sXpw

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latest from Dirtfish....

"At a media roundtable on the eve of this week’s Rally Islas Canarias, FIA chief technical officer Xavier Mestelan Pinon revealed that “all the last details” of the bodywork will not be signed off until August – just 16 months before the new regulations will be introduced."

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/timeframe-revealed-for-wrc-2027-regs-finalization/

[becher]

So it's a spec series then. Not worthy of world championship.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So it's a spec series then. Not worthy of world championship.

Only the spaceframe, everything to hang on it isn't specified, much like Rally1 but considerably cheaper using Rally2 level parts.

[saco0o]

as long as R5s are still on 'the same levels' for a few years, then its fine. because its not everybody who have the money to build/buy these new spaceframe + aerokit cars, right? if they dont extend the lifetime of the R5s, we may cause a little crisis where less people will buy them because "they will not be able to race them by 2027" (outside national championships, probably)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

as long as R5s are still on 'the same levels' for a few years, then its fine. because its not everybody who have the money to build/buy these new spaceframe + aerokit cars, right? if they dont extend the lifetime of the R5s, we may cause a little crisis where less people will buy them because "they will not be able to race them by 2027" (outside national championships, probably)

Is this still the plan, for current Rally2 Cars to compete with the new 2027-spec cars ? I cant remember any more after this has changed so many times ! ;)

[deephouse]

I think this will be the only option. But probably will not be any official manufacturer present, because let's face it. As soon there would be in any kind of form of Toyota, nobody would stand a chance. We don't have to worry about entries, because there would probably be too much of them. As other manufacturers who currently (still) produce those kind of cars are not interested for many years now, so I think this will not change.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latest...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-fears-one-marque-wrc-in-2027-as-technical-regulations-debate-intensifies-/10717883/

[typhoon]

I see the fears coming from M-Sport, but if they need those 2 extra months, just spend them on the front and the rear, since they have already the detailed rules. From August on, just work on the rest.

As for Hyundai, enough with their crying and rule changes. This is just the last excuse to justify something they already decided long time ago, but they didn't share yet.

I'd love seeing tuners like Prodrive partnering with a manufacturer rather than Hyundai's daily soap opera.

Also, it might open the door back for Lancia and Skoda as well. Since the costs are dramatically going down, if they manage to get on board some good heavy sponsors (Abu Dhabi, TotalEnergies or something like that) they could fund very efficiently their factory campaign. I'm just speculating, but Lancia's CEO told that with current Rally1 it was too expensive and didn't guarantee return of investment. Now, who knows?

[Sal yet again]

The more I hear about 2027 and the fallout from the proposed new regs the more I think about what happened to the DTM race series. Once capable of drawing crowds as big or bigger than for F1 it fell from its pedestal thru bad promotion, falling out amongst the manufacturers and a shifting world outside of motorsport. You could quite easily say that the WRC is in the departure gate ready to follow. Whilst the following article doesnt necessarily fit completely it does raise some interesting points one of which is about being unique which certainly in recent years the top formula WRC 1 etc has been, with Rally 2 based kit that will be lost:

https://gprejects.com/centrale/opinion/gravel-trap/dtm-gt3-and-the-slow-death-of-european-motorsport

[saco0o]

fia will redesign the rally pyramid for 2027
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-will-redesign-rally-pyramid-for-2027/

does anyone know how cheaper would be to run something like this as an 'entry level' instead of rally4 and rally3?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hwLMicOd-xw
this class is exploding in autocross/rallycross, with looooots of brands producing it.
just get them to produce 2 seaters, like this one
no? entry level

[WRCStan]

does anyone know how cheaper would be to run something like this as an 'entry level' instead of rally4 and rally3?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hwLMicOd-xw
this class is exploding in autocross/rallycross, with looooots of brands producing it.
just get them to produce 2 seaters, like this one
no? entry level

Look up SSV - side-by-side vehicle, they're not new in bajas or raids or in the Middle East and Africa. One came 6th in Rally Saudi over the weekend. More simple 2-seater carts/buggys like you linked are unsuitable for being European street-legal which you need for any significant rallying or influential support.

It should be cheaper, don't know if you saw this video but it could become more of a thing. In 10 years time why would anybody be building a brand new 15 year old car for the privateer? It doesn't make sense.


Rich Millener on side-by-sides: 'I personally think a modified version of this could be the answer to the problems in rally of entry level vehicles'

https://youtu.be/1xsKjcptLjc?t=785

[Kenneth]

To the topic if private tuners can carry the championship - of course they can. Dakar/W2RC basically works like that. Dacia is Prodrive, which run their own team even before Renault entered, Toyota is Overdrive, Mini is X-Raid, and many of other cars without manufacturers' backing is there too. etc. etc. There always were and always will be bunch of privateers, full factory teams were really an exeption.

And as it was already mentioned in this thread, there were many attempts to build a rally car from private tuners, that ended on the need of manufacturer backed homologation.

[deephouse]

I think that Toyota is running official Dakar/W2RC program with Toyota Gazoo Racing South Africa and not Overdrive. Hilux is there for like million years already and they sell those cars to many privateers. How many rally1 cars are out there owned by privateers. I can only think about two and both by M-Sport. Also don't get why old spec WRC cars can't compete in WRC. Are they afraid that those cars would beat the "newest machines"? Also there is more or less open classes and not so strict about everything, that's why there are so many entries. Also it adds up, that "SUV" trend around the globe and amongst almost all brands are favourable here.

[wyler]

To the topic if private tuners can carry the championship - of course they can. Dakar/W2RC basically works like that. Dacia is Prodrive, which run their own team even before Renault entered, Toyota is Overdrive, Mini is X-Raid, and many of other cars without manufacturers' backing is there too. etc. etc. There always were and always will be bunch of privateers, full factory teams were really an exeption.

And as it was already mentioned in this thread, there were many attempts to build a rally car from private tuners, that ended on the need of manufacturer backed homologation.

mmm "without manufacture's backing" is a long shot, I think it's far from reality. nonetheless, we have m-sport example of a privateer not much backed by many and we all see how it is struggling...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

To the topic if private tuners can carry the championship - of course they can. Dakar/W2RC basically works like that. Dacia is Prodrive, which run their own team even before Renault entered, Toyota is Overdrive, Mini is X-Raid, and many of other cars without manufacturers' backing is there too. etc. etc. There always were and always will be bunch of privateers, full factory teams were really an exeption.

And as it was already mentioned in this thread, there were many attempts to build a rally car from private tuners, that ended on the need of manufacturer backed homologation.

But this is the DNA of rallying. The Manufacturer provided the car and the tuners ran it. Without the Manufacturer (homologated) car there was no car.

WRC and all rallying would have to change completely for cars to be built and run completely by private teams.

Rallying using all kinds of non-road car based vehicles just isn't the same.

[deephouse]

I think that M-Sport would do just fine if not the best, if there would be no manufacturer direct involvement. As mentioned. Manufacturer would provide a car, tuner would build the racing beast, and manufacturer would homologate it. No fancy tents and busses of people just walking up and down service park with no real impact on racing outcome.

[saco0o]

if it wasnt for the homologation thing, the FIA (and promoters, for obvious reasons) wanting MANUFACTURERS PAYING HUGE FEES to compete and the Need for it ''to be a road legal car to travel between stages", cheaper stuff like this
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AqXOcluzkNQ would be EXCELLENT for entry levels and national championships (maybe even Rally2?) apparently it costs less than 100K, 400hp 4wd ICE - even cheaper if you build a less powerfull engine.
...AND, if you are a manufacturer, you could just switch the front and back bumpers for it to resemble you car. have a yaris fron grill and rear lights, well... "it is a toyota" ISH haha im half joking, ok? but at the same time ehhhh..... dodge did that in US when that championship was going on, for example.
brought a sticker, called it "dodge" and got thousand of eye-balls on your instagram posts about the car.
Its 2025, nothing makes sense anymore

[WRCStan]

mmm "without manufacture's backing" is a long shot, I think it's far from reality. nonetheless, we have m-sport example of a privateer not much backed by many and we all see how it is struggling...

Also from the championship's start in 2022 to now, there were 6, 4, 4 then 3 manufacturers competing, Toyota, Dacia and Ford; and that's across all categories. Neither Mini or the independent builders are there and there's no series-production requirement in T1/Ultimate. Maybe the small teams could carry the cup but once it moved to championship status and the fees had to be paid to a promoter, things changed. I don't know how the cup was, but the drivers championship has registration fees that WRC privateers don't have to pay because the manufacturers face the burden. Only 4 drivers competed all 5 rounds last year... I don't see what's worth copying.

[wyler]

Manufacturer would provide a car, tuner would build the racing beast, and manufacturer would homologate it. .

I'm confused... that's how it worked till now

[denkimi]

I think that M-Sport would do just fine if not the best, if there would be no manufacturer direct involvement. As mentioned. Manufacturer would provide a car, tuner would build the racing beast, and manufacturer would homologate it. No fancy tents and busses of people just walking up and down service park with no real impact on racing outcome.
The "manufacturer homologate it" is the issue here. From a sporting or technical view, there is no need for that. It exists only to make money for the FIA.

You can just create a set of technical rules, and everyone who conforms to those rules is allowed to start. Kinda like in every other technical sport.

[saco0o]

The "manufacturer homologate it" is the issue here. From a sporting or technical view, there is no need for that. It exists only to make money for the FIA.

You can just create a set of technical rules, and everyone who conforms to those rules is allowed to start. Kinda like in every other technical sport.

but you cant travel between stages on a generic hatchback, for example. the police can stop you and arrest the car because its not 'road legal'.
unless theres some kind of deal with EU and the overseas countries. that sounds like an expensive bribery :/

[Kenneth]

but you cant travel between stages on a generic hatchback

Of course you can. Being road legal have nothing to do with manufacturers, otherwise there wouldn't be any new car brands or one-off cars.

[saco0o]

Of course you can. Being road legal have nothing to do with manufacturers, otherwise there wouldn't be any new car brands or one-off cars.

but BRANDs and new CARS from A BRAND is different from a spaceframe tube with generic body pannels / aerokit, no? like... "Sir. what is this car you are driving on the road?" - "Its a Oreca build spaceframe" ...not sure its the same thing haha
im not from europe, so no idea how stuff would work. here in south america you would have to bribe governments and police officers the whole weekend

Edit: hmm sure, special permits and authorizations, sure. it took me some hours to think about that hehe

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC Commission considers "refinements" to 2027 regulation reforms:

https://x.com/RallyingUK/status/1920837463855026304

[Kenneth]

but BRANDs and new CARS from A BRAND is different from a spaceframe tube with generic body pannels / aerokit, no? like... "Sir. what is this car you are driving on the road?" - "Its a Oreca build spaceframe" ...not sure its the same thing haha

So what's a difference between "Oreca built spaceframe" and "M-Sport built spaceframe, but it kinda looks like Ford".

[saco0o]

So what's a difference between "Oreca built spaceframe" and "M-Sport built spaceframe, but it kinda looks like Ford".

yep, u got me.
do they get special permits for public roads? or the fact it "is a ford puma" makes it legal? if its a total generic car, can they have permits that are not mega expensive?

[WRCStan]

yep, u got me.
do they get special permits for public roads? or the fact it "is a ford puma" makes it legal? if its a total generic car, can they have permits that are not mega expensive?

This is a loaded question. The permit itself shouldn't be expensive in the grand scheme of things, perhaps having the staff to do it all would be.

In the UK should be similar to EU, anyone can build a car at home and get it approved for road use but it has to be inspected at a cost to check it meets minimum standards. A manufacturer can produce up to 500* vehicles per year this way but each individual car built must be inspected. I imagine this is what the kind of outfit we're discussing would do

Or, mass-manufacturers can go for type approval, meaning only one gets inspected in theory, and they then make however many identical cars. But really everything about the manufacturing process is inspected, this requires a lot of effort, documentation and a lot tougher standards of safety, emissions this kind of thing.

A spaceframe rally Puma, whoever built it, would be seen as a completely different vehicle to normal production Puma, as it doesn't conform to the type approval standard. It's just shared branding. Kenneth is right, there's no difference between Ford or Oreca spaceframe cars.


*I've read 300 elsewhere from the same Government agency that does it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

We all know the spaceframe Rally1 Cars aren't based on a road car shell. But each one has been made by a Manufacturer (or virtual with Ford/MSport) and are clearly designed to be / resemble a Puma, Yaris or i20.

The issue would be what an Oreca made car would look like and what if any manufacturer car it would resemble ? If no Manufacturer panels are used who would fund it ? And do we want to see anonymous 'coild be anything' vehicles representing the top of rallying ?

[Kenneth]

Iirc the scrapped 27 ruleset said that the Rally1 still has to resemble a road car (no matter if it's hatchback, sedan, suv or even a concept), so that's not really an issue. The difference is that they don't need an approval from manufacturer.

Imo that will open doors for support from local dealer / manufacturer branch. Paddon have enough support from Hyundai NZ to build various cars, that will never be FIA homologated because there is no support from Hyundai. Now that won't matter.

[saco0o]

Iirc the scrapped 27 ruleset said that the Rally1 still has to resemble a road car (no matter if it's hatchback, sedan, suv or even a concept), so that's not really an issue. The difference is that they don't need an approval from manufacturer.

Imo that will open doors for support from local dealer / manufacturer branch. Paddon have enough support from Hyundai NZ to build various cars, that will never be FIA homologated because there is no support from Hyundai. Now that won't matter.

could that work? like, would mitsubishi be ok if i start a wrc team with a eclipsecross, for example? no need to authotize me?
that would be super interesting and it would solve all problems tbf. literally haha
spaceframe, body pannel from ANY car. they can even have something like "it gotta be one of the top 5 most selled cars from the brand over the last 3 years" (OR NOT, so we could have old school cars body pannels with modern engineering ??????)

[WRCStan]

Iirc the scrapped 27 ruleset said that the Rally1 still has to resemble a road car (no matter if it's hatchback, sedan, suv or even a concept), so that's not really an issue. The difference is that they don't need an approval from manufacturer.

Imo that will open doors for support from local dealer / manufacturer branch. Paddon have enough support from Hyundai NZ to build various cars, that will never be FIA homologated because there is no support from Hyundai. Now that won't matter.

If you think that Paddon car will be called a Hyundai then that is absolutely not going to happen without Hyundai entering as a manufacturer. There's no real distinction between HMSG and Hyundai NZ; the make will be Hyundai regardless. There's no free ride for any manufacturers and never will be.


We all know the spaceframe Rally1 Cars aren't based on a road car shell. But each one has been made by a Manufacturer (or virtual with Ford/MSport) and are clearly designed to be / resemble a Puma, Yaris or i20.

The issue would be what an Oreca made car would look like and what if any manufacturer car it would resemble ? If no Manufacturer panels are used who would fund it ? And do we want to see anonymous 'coild be anything' vehicles representing the top of rallying ?

What the rules do allow for is bespoke designs, so an Oreca car will be a bespoke Oreca design and will be funded by the privateer market, likely with Oreca being forced to enter the championship as a manufacturer for the privilege of their cars being eligible for the championship.

Remember the McRae R4 for a bespoke design?


could that work? like, would mitsubishi be ok if i start a wrc team with a eclipsecross, for example? no need to authotize me?
that would be super interesting and it would solve all problems tbf. literally haha
spaceframe, body pannel from ANY car. they can even have something like "it gotta be one of the top 5 most selled cars from the brand over the last 3 years" (OR NOT, so we could have old school cars body pannels with modern engineering ??????)

Adding to the above, you cannot take a brand and apply it to your own products without approval.

[skarderud]

I think a official importer can, with agreement from the manufacturer of course, run a "importerbased" team as i brand. But they dont need the homologation from a manufacturer to do it if its a base spaceframe chassis approved from FIA that is allowed to use between stages.

To be honest, its obvious that no manufacturers (exept Toyota) is interested in WRC these days, so its quite easy: open the rules for other teams or let it die.

I really dont see a manufacturer deny a official importer make a rallycar, they both get exposure without official involvment, they can put some money into the team without complicit theire green politics, they can sell the electric cars and let the people that don't know belive the brand is all green.
It's a win-win-win consept.

Maybe not for FIA that cant have big fees for enter the championship, but i really don't feel sorry for those guys.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[deephouse]

What about those Lancia's who burned everything down (and almost the whole championship) from WorldRX. I know it's completely different. What car were they based on under "official" delta skin. And how do they get approval from manufacturer or FIA to compete at the top level.

[Kenneth]

What about those Lancia's who burned everything down (and almost the whole championship) from WorldRX. I know it's completely different. What car were they based on under "official" delta skin. And how do they get approval from manufacturer or FIA to compete at the top level.

In RX it's a bit different. You can make a RX car from any chassis that was ever homologated by FIA (I'm not sure right now if it's just Group A or literally anything, but that's not important right now). Doesn't matter what was inside or outside the car, it just need to use homologated chassis.

As Lancia Delta Evo was of course homologated at some point, they could have build a RX car out of it.

Same reason why there is Skoda or Hyundai cars in RX althrough neither of the brands were involved.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Andreas Bakkerud's team just built an RX 'Ford Puma' for the Norwegian Championship, with no connection to Ford or MSport. This is a converted road car shell but I guess the same principle applies... just pick a car you like and fit its panels to the spaceframe, no need to have it endorsed by its manufacturer ?

[PLuto]

Andreas Bakkerud's team just built an RX 'Ford Puma' for the Norwegian Championship, with no connection to Ford or MSport. This is a converted road car shell but I guess the same principle applies... just pick a car you like and fit its panels to the spaceframe, no need to have it endorsed by its manufacturer ?

But this car is competing only on closed circuit. It never goes on normal roads.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The FIA intends for the next set of World Rally Championship regulations to become the backbone of championships all over the world, not just the WRC....

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/2027-cars-designed-not-just-for-wrc/

[becher]

Only the spaceframe, everything to hang on it isn't specified, much like Rally1 but considerably cheaper using Rally2 level parts.

If I take a Ford Focus, gut it to a bare shell and fit a different drive line, suspension and change some cosmetic body panels is it still a Ford Focus?

[WRCStan]

If I take a Ford Focus, gut it to a bare shell and fit a different drive line, suspension and change some cosmetic body panels is it still a Ford Focus?

Assuming you kept the VIN plate; yes.

[Kenneth]

If I take a Ford Focus, gut it to a bare shell and fit a different drive line, suspension and change some cosmetic body panels is it still a Ford Focus?

well isn't it the way rally works for last 25 years??

[becher]

well isn't it the way rally works for last 25 years??

It did until Rally1, but that is besides the point. If the new regulations bring along a spec chassis everyone will use the same car with a few different bits.

[saco0o]

opel showing their electric rally4 car made me think about fia saying they will re-design the rally pyramid. rally4s (lancia, ice opel, electric opel, msport, peugeot, renault...) as the 'lites' and space framed rally2 as the top class?

[Andre Oliveira]

The car is eRally5, not Rally4.

[saco0o]

The car is eRally5, not Rally4.

ah but they are claming its on pair with rally4 (performance)... so since they are changing the whole rally pyramid for 27, why not? https://dirtfish.com/rally/first-fia-spec-electric-rally-car-revealed-by-opel/
im not the biggest "rally3" fan. in ERC they run some renault clios in rally4 too, so idk... I'd go this way, maybe? cuz thats 5 brands already

[Maui J.]

[QUOTE=WRCStan;1362564]If you think that Paddon car will be called a Hyundai then that is absolutely not going to happen without Hyundai entering as a manufacturer. There's no real distinction between HMSG and Hyundai NZ; the make will be Hyundai regardless. There's no free ride for any manufacturers and never will be.

But with the rules relaxed without the homologation part, then Paddon should be able to run Hyundai cars without Hyundai's approval. He obviously won't be able to call it the Hyundai WRC team but will have to use Paddon WRC Team, or similar, instead.
Hopefully, this new rule with encourage other tuners to do a similar thing. And who knows if these private teams do well with new brands, they might start receiving manufacturer support. We can no longer wait for the big brands to bring a new team to the WRC. This new rule is the way forward.

[WRCStan]

But with the rules relaxed without the homologation part, then Paddon should be able to run Hyundai cars without Hyundai's approval. He obviously won't be able to call it the Hyundai WRC team but will have to use Paddon WRC Team, or similar, instead.
Hopefully, this new rule with encourage other tuners to do a similar thing. And who knows if these private teams do well with new brands, they might start receiving manufacturer support. We can no longer wait for the big brands to bring a new team to the WRC. This new rule is the way forward.

However it goes with team names and FIA homologation rules; intellectual property laws in most countries say if he builds a car to his own design he cannot call it a Hyundai make car without approval and support from Hyundai.

Then, if he does end up driving a Hyundai car however and whoever built it; something significant would have to change to the WRC commercial model that's been in place since 1993(?) that says if Hyundai want exposure through the championship, they're going to have to pay for it. I don't see what the sustainable change would be or what the reason for it is.

But why are you looking to appease Hyundai and the likes? The Surveilled Urban Vehicle manufacturers and stage rallying needs are de-linking. I think more likely to happen is; Paddonsport builds the Paddonsport Rally1.5 and enters the Paddonsport WRT (investment), which are necessary steps in order to sell Paddonsport Rally1.5s into the privateer rallying market (profit). There's your manufacturer and marque - Paddonsport; there's your commercial model, incentives, rewards, reasons for relaxing homologation. What's missed? Maybe Hyundai sponsor Paddonsport WRT and stick the logo on the side and announce a "strategic partnership", that's irrelevence.

Maybe Toyota do it all themselves not to sell Rally cars but their brand. Maybe Prodrive team up with Mini and go 50:50 strategy. It is pretty open. Teams would probably be acceptable too, as somebody like Prodrive will do the minimum 1 year commitment for approval to sell. So "Team Portugal" may be driving the Prodrive Pender, that's how you'd get the double-digit number of teams.

[WRCStan]

WRC27 takes shape as regulations open to huge variety of bodywork designs

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/styles/content_details/public/7a394c47-1ff2-59f2-1259-38648d8b7a61.png?itok=0GxLRUEV

The World Council today approved one of the final pieces of the compelling puzzle that is coming together to mark the start of a brand-new era for the FIA World Rally Championship from 2027.

The WRC27 ruleset, given the green light by the World Council in December 2024, has been undergoing its final refinements and updates over the past six months, and today the confirmation of the reference volumes for bodywork cements the commitment set out by the FIA to put flexibility at the core of these regulations.

To achieve this, the rules define a zone in which all of the bodywork panels must be located, but within this volume, manufacturers and constructors have the freedom to scale and integrate almost any design.

This crucial feature of the regulations means that, without effecting performance, cars ranging from saloons to hatchbacks, cross-overs and completely bespoke designs could be entered over the ten-year regulation cycle through to 2037.

https://www.fia.com/news/milestones-set-world-motor-sport-council-macau

[skarderud]

I would prefer Rally2's, but we know the production of fiesta is already ended, and the fabia is close.

This could be a step in right direction, if they also open up for semi-or nonmanufacturer homologation.

Personally i don't think Rally2's are slow and boring, but its need to be driven in anger, everything driven in anger can be spectacular in my opinion.

Take a look at Royal rally (erc) last weekend, its really good racing!

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[saco0o]

"Autosport understands at least two tuners are actively working on projects."
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fia-approves-updated-bodywork-rules-for-wrc-2027-regulations-/10731302/

[WRCStan]

Autosport also says the Rally2 engine will be used, so where are these independent tuners getting their mass-produced Group A engines?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I still dont buy it.

If M-Sport decide to build a 'Ford Puma' version of a '27 Reg car and Toyota build a version of their Yaris or Corolla to the new Regs, which new manufacturer or tuner will believe they can build a car to beat them ?

The recent top rally experience these Teams have is huge and in Toyota's case they have vast resources too. Trying to compete with them, let alone beat them, will be a thankless task for anyone.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hyundai still not happy with the 2027 Regs and Abiteboul suggests that they're biased in favour of tuners ?!

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/hyundai-set-to-stay-in-wrc-for-2026-question-marks-remain-for-2027/10730002/

[TypeR]

Hyundai will agree if they can keep to use rally1 cars...

while Ford and Toyota must use rally2 cars..

[WRCStan]

I still dont buy it.

If M-Sport decide to build a 'Ford Puma' version of a '27 Reg car and Toyota build a version of their Yaris or Corolla to the new Regs, which new manufacturer or tuner will believe they can build a car to beat them ?

The recent top rally experience these Teams have is huge and in Toyota's case they have vast resources too. Trying to compete with them, let alone beat them, will be a thankless task for anyone.

Don't forget this car also replaces Rally2 until 2037, that market is huge so there are other incentives.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Don't forget this car also replaces Rally2 until 2037, that market is huge so there are other incentives.

Fair point.

And maybe M-Sport and Toyota would just build the new cars to sell or hire to any individual or team who wants one. No more Manufacturer team entries.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota's Tom Fowler has his say and seems to confirm Toyota will be in 2027 with an official team car entry.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-wrc-2027-is-a-golden-opportunity-for-privateers/

[saco0o]

so the tubeframe construction will become a good business opportunity in rallying, right? dallara can start building tubeframes to sell to anyone, for example. good

can other brands (illmor, cosworth, judd...?) start building 1.6l turbo engines to sell or these 'rally2' engines are restricted to some homologated road models? im asking because idk how that works. theres no infos out there, sure, but some of you usually have more infos than what i can find on articles

[deephouse]

Only one real team in WRC, still. Toyota accepting everything FIA throws at them. Hyundai (again) whining and try to change to their liking, but we all know they will leave anyway (just making excuses, so they don't look bad at the end), and M-Sport being just there (if), of course still the most loyal team.

Also I'm rooting for Skoda - they actualy build crossover concept car based on rally2 fabia tech. It could be, that they are playing with stick in the water...

Then Subaru. They announced that they will probably build next WRX car or something, so it could be their opportunity to showcase it the proper way...

And then Lancia. If thing will be really ''this cheap'', why not. I think that they could convince Stellantis bosses to enter the stages as they should.

For tuners I don't know. Only one comes to mind is Prodrive... And Paddon with his team, which showed some interest.

[RS]

Will these new cars still have the silly aero from Rally 1s?

[RS]

I still dont buy it.

If M-Sport decide to build a 'Ford Puma' version of a '27 Reg car and Toyota build a version of their Yaris or Corolla to the new Regs, which new manufacturer or tuner will believe they can build a car to beat them ?

The recent top rally experience these Teams have is huge and in Toyota's case they have vast resources too. Trying to compete with them, let alone beat them, will be a thankless task for anyone.

I can see these regs bringing in more manufacturers but maybe not private tuners. Who’s going to pay for it? The reason private teams can exist in F1 is that there is prize money, which I believe isn’t the case in WRC.

[WRCStan]

can other brands (illmor, cosworth, judd...?) start building 1.6l turbo engines to sell or these 'rally2' engines are restricted to some homologated road models? im asking because idk how that works. theres no infos out there, sure, but some of you usually have more infos than what i can find on articles

We need more official info, there's been next to none whether it's Rally2 or otherwise.

I think they should liberate it to the smaller builders, given the mass-production manufacturers have been told to stop producing them. And if they do start looking at EV tech, should that be expected to be production based? Unlikely. The hybrid kit from Compact Dynamics wasn't used elsewhere either.

[Steve Boyd]

so the tubeframe construction will become a good business opportunity in rallying, right? dallara can start building tubeframes to sell to anyone, for example. good

can other brands (illmor, cosworth, judd...?) start building 1.6l turbo engines to sell or these 'rally2' engines are restricted to some homologated road models? im asking because idk how that works. theres no infos out there, sure, but some of you usually have more infos than what i can find on articlesEngine homologation is based on use in series production road cars, but it is possible to homologate just the engine for use in things like F3 racing where the cars have to have a road car based engine. The full lists of FIA homologations are detailed on this page https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/760. If you look at the lists you will see some are shown "Homologation Valid Only for Engine".

This spaceframe formula might give Hyundai a way to get out of building & entering WRC cars but staying in the championship by letting Paddon build & enter them.

[WRCStan]

Engine homologation is based on use in series production road cars, but it is possible to homologate just the engine for use in things like F3 racing where the cars have to have a road car based engine. The full lists of FIA homologations are detailed on this page https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/760. If you look at the lists you will see some are shown "Homologation Valid Only for Engine".

But nothing to say yet that this will carry on to WRC27.


This spaceframe formula might give Hyundai a way to get out of building & entering WRC cars but staying in the championship by letting Paddon build & enter them.

How is WRC27 different to anything that came prior? Such as the M-Sport and Ford relationship. Several people have said this now but AFAICS, there's nothing new.

[JRodrigues]

Then Subaru. They announced that they will probably build next WRX car or something, so it could be their opportunity to showcase it the proper way...



https://img.bestcarweb.jp/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/01102110/IMG_7830.jpg

[JRodrigues]

This looks likes it's going the same way WR2C is atm, and I'm not against that if that's something similar.

[saco0o]

the ex ford europe guy said the new regs are not interesting
https://x.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/1932514123532664950

but again, the reactions are always "yes, wrc is moving away from road cars, thats not what rally should be all about". i dont have twitter, for those who have: go and ask these fellas "which modern relevant road car you want in wrc right now?" - cuz i bet its going to be the same answers i got on facebook: "nah, current road cars are ugly suvs with hybrid engines, i hate those"
so... what do they want? what do 'WE' want? even among the most hardcore fans there isnt a vision. each one of us want something related to our memory or to our visual likes

edit: my best interaction on fb about this so far was someone saying wrc need to use road cars, then I asked 'which car? a suv?' then he said 'yes but down-scaled like the puma', then I said "but you can only re-escale a car if it is a tubeframe', then he told me to 'grow up and stop arguing on the internet'

racing fans are getting hard to understand hehe (myself included, for sure lol)

[saco0o]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-wrc-2027-is-a-golden-opportunity-for-privateers/
Toyota technical director Tom Fowler

“Look at this really simplistically. Right now, I don’t have a ’27 car. But a Škoda Rally2 car exists and has been driving for more than a decade in different forms. So, when we get to the Safari Rally in 2027, I wouldn’t bet that a car which doesn’t exist today has a better chance of getting to the end faster compared with one which has already done this event and existed for more than a decade – and has the same technical and performance specification"

weird thing for a toyota guy to say but ok lol
good to know some insider guy saying 'wrc27 and r5s will be on the same level', cuz i still had my doubts. thats good. it keeps those thousand of cars still competing for a little longer! (before more and more teams and racers buy/build the wrc27 car)

[Sulland]

345k € for the new car, and then ++ for all you need in addition to make a full season on loose and asphalt.

How much is a new Rally2 and how much is a ++ package for that one?

Do not think 345 000 € opens up for many privateers. Not that easy to get sponsors for a full WRC season these days.

More and more crews goes to ERC where The Rally2s are top dog, and less travel cost compared to WRC.

Maybe a Rally2+ still is the best option long term?

[WRCStan]

Is this question basically just bodyshell v space frame now? What's the description of Rally2 and Rally2+ that will be developed, approved and brought to the stages in 2034?

[skarderud]

Main problem is that the fiesta isn't produced anymore, and the fabia is soon to end without a successor.

No one is interested in suv's in motorsport, and i dont see manufacturers build ice Rally2's out of electric roadcars eighter.

So, if we like it or not, a standard spaceframe is the path.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[wyler]

345k € for the new car, and then ** for all you need in addition to make a full season on loose and asphalt.

How much is a new Rally2 and how much is a ++ package for that one?

Do not think 345 000 € opens up for many privateers. Not that easy to get sponsors for a full WRC season these days.

More and more crews goes to ERC where The Rally2s are top dog, and less travel cost compared to WRC.

Maybe a Rally2+ still is the best option long term?

i don't see a lot of wrc people going to erc. i see the opposite more, erc to wrc2. (franceschi, koronen, etc)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Sadly the spaceframe plus chosen body panels is the only answer. There's just no suitable road cars coming along for a Rally2 or Rally2+ version. The GR Yaris is the last of the kind.

But the €345,000 cost of the 2027 Regs car doesn't work - the factory teams say it's too low to build and run and for the privateers it's still too high.

[skarderud]

Yes, its to expensive, but how is it possible to make it cheaper?

The parts and design is one thing, the construction and development is another part of it.

And, is the future of rallying even suitable for manufacturer teams?

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[saco0o]

2027 is prooobably going to be a lot of R5s competing against a few tubeframe cars probably build by skoda motorsport, gazoo and msport. then with time more of those will be produced to be sold, especially because its a good business opportunity for the brand's motorsport division to make some $$

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Of course M-Sport will build a car, but if its a 'Puma', will Ford support it with ICE power when the road car will be EV only ? It might be time to go it alone or combine with another Manufacturer.

As for Gazoo Racing, will they want to make another new car when their Yaris Rally2 is the newest?

[saco0o]

btw, the new cars will use R5 engines. where current R5s get their engine? from the production base car and then they tune the engines for racing? what new engines the current Polos (privateers) are using since vw doesnt produce them anymore? can they use other brand engines? like a polo but with a i20 R5 engine? no idea how that stuff work. I presume current polos have to eventually change engines after being used for so many years

[WRCStan]

These points make great reasons to pull engines away from mass-production link, which I understand to be only the block anyway. Pointless to carry this regulation on into an era where no engine will be legally allowed to be mass-produced. Remove that and there's another value-add cost saving.

[WRCStan]

What do you all understand tuner to mean from the FIA publications? I was wondering whilst the forum was down, are they meaning it to be bodywork only, as in there'll be a handful of the usual suspects producing a rolling chassis with frame, and a 'tuner' produces their own body panels to stick onto it? E.g. M-Sport could build a rolling chassis, TunerX will stick body panels on it for direct entry or customer racing or whatever.

Or does a 'tuner' get to produce a whole car?

I wish they'd get some clarity published.

[saco0o]

good point. am I a "turner" if I buy a msport tube, a mecachrome engine, a xtrac gearbox and a dallara designed body pannel/aerokit design? is this the general idea?
LoL im so curious man

[WRCStan]

Everything we've heard recently has been about the bodywork frame and the reference volumes. That took up all the WMSC chat and required passing after several months of deliberation. Fantastic! But what about the rest of it?

[saco0o]

Everything we've heard recently has been about the bodywork frame and the reference volumes. That took up all the WMSC chat and required passing after several months of deliberation. Fantastic! But what about the rest of it?

hmmm didnt they said the new cars would use R5 components, right? like engines and gearboxes?
if thats the case, thats where my doubt lays: 'what engines R5s are using right now? like the example i asked... which engines the Polos users are using? because theres no more new Polos engines, right? can they simpy get any production base engine and 'tune it'? like a opel corsa engine being run in a R5 and its all fine..?

[TypeR]

Read FIA Rally2 technical rules or Skoda has done it easier..


It(engine) is based on the 2.0 TSI production engine from the EA888 family, used for example in the Octavia and Kodiaq RS. The obligation to base the engine on the series engine applies to all Rally2 class cars, as does the defined supercharged power unit capacity (1.6 litres) or the use of a 32 mm diameter intake restrictor.

[WRCStan]

if thats the case, thats where my doubt lays: 'what engines R5s are using right now? like the example i asked... which engines the Polos users are using? because theres no more new Polos engines, right? can they simpy get any production base engine and 'tune it'? like a opel corsa engine being run in a R5 and its all fine..?

The Polo Rally2 engine is the same base as the Fabia Rally2 engine, and these are still being produced for the VW and Audi groups production cars even if VW brand cars are all electric now - if they are, I can't be bothered to check if they flip-flop. But my point is they're European, rallying is European, and they're being directed by governments to stop producing them long before the end of the regs in 2037.

It's only the cast metal block of cylinders in the engine that needs to be original. They're allowed to use some original other parts if they choose, but if they're making a 1.6L engine out of a 2.0L block (VW and Skoda do for better performance reasons), they are replacing just about every part that makes it a functioning engine. If Polo Rally2s and engines are still being made then it'll be approved partners of VW on the hush. Parts have to be the spec as homologated, even when there's new suppliers of parts the paperwork has to be updated. They can't do as they please, or much without VW officially.

So why, when a tuner can make body panels to their own design for a non-production spaceframe car, would it make sense to force the same car to use a production engine block when that's free to being tuned with performance gear anyway. And electric and hydrogen engines may be coming in to compete against them which won't be production run either. This logic is missing the point of why the WRC27 rules are necessary in the first place.

That's as I understand it all anyway, sorry if I'm labouring my point.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

No worries about Toyota, they're already working on their 2027 Car... but it may not be a 'Yaris'...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/is-the-end-of-the-road-in-sight-for-toyotas-gr-yaris-rally1/

[PLuto]

No worries about Toyota, they're already working on their 2027 Car... but it may not be a 'Yaris'...

Currently they are only one who are working on 2027 car...

[saco0o]

people on fb begging for it to be a corolla or a celtica but the current corolla is such an ugly giant sedan and the celitca is just a big suv now. sure, 'resized' cars, but i dont believe toyota would risk racing a sedan out of nothing. the only sedan winning rallies is the subaru in america but only because no one with money is running a hatchback.

they have the yaris cross, which is a little more 'squared'. i think it would look pretty if resizes
comparission: https://media.drive.com.au/obj/tx_q:50,rs:auto:1920:1080:1/driveau/upload/cms/uploads/bpfoowdrqyanvwptxyd8

edit: oh, they have the Aygo X, veeery "rallie looking" lol.
https://scene7.toyota.eu/is/image/toyotaeurope/2022-aygo-x-dpl-combo-001?wid=1280&fit=fit,1&ts=1678454051656&resMode=sharp2&op_usm=1.75,0.3,2,0

and they still produce a corolla cross in europe so eh

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Currently they are only one who are working on 2027 car...

Only Manufacturer, or the only ones at all ?

Surely M-Sport are doing something, even if just with the chassis. If not the WRC future is in big trouble.

[pedro16]

people on fb begging for it to be a corolla or a celtica but the current corolla is such an ugly giant sedan and the celitca is just a big suv now. sure, 'resized' cars, but i dont believe toyota would risk racing a sedan out of nothing. the only sedan winning rallies is the subaru in america but only because no one with money is running a hatchback.

they have the yaris cross, which is a little more 'squared'. i think it would look pretty if resizes
comparission: https://media.drive.com.au/obj/tx_q:50,rs:auto:1920:1080:1/driveau/upload/cms/uploads/bpfoowdrqyanvwptxyd8

edit: oh, they have the Aygo X, veeery "rallie looking" lol.
https://scene7.toyota.eu/is/image/toyotaeurope/2022-aygo-x-dpl-combo-001?wid=1280&fit=fit,1&ts=1678454051656&resMode=sharp2&op_usm=1.75,0.3,2,0

and they still produce a corolla cross in europe so eh

The last Celica is from 2007. It is heavily rumoured to come back around 2027. And it will certainly not be a SUV.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota GR Corolla for the North American market:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/2024_Toyota_GR_Corolla_Circuit_Edition_in_Blue_Fla me%2C_front_right%2C_2024-06-30.jpg/960px-2024_Toyota_GR_Corolla_Circuit_Edition_in_Blue_Fla me%2C_front_right%2C_2024-06-30.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rally Concept they showed in January 2025...

https://dirtfish-editorial.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/2025/01/Corolla-1.jpg

[saco0o]

Only Manufacturer, or the only ones at all ?

Surely M-Sport are doing something, even if just with the chassis. If not the WRC future is in big trouble.

true. but cant we presume msport and skoda motorsport will be there too? i'd imagine they have zero reasons to go away from this excellent business format of bulding and selling 'rally2' level machiinery. sure, now they would have to build the tube frame and body pannles - not the road car with some rollcages, but the business of selling the car would be basically the same, maybe even better cuz apparently these new cars will be raced all over european championships (at least from what I understood) i'd even bet stellantis will join with one of its brands too, because it looks like profitable business for the manufacturer's motorsport divisions. i'm still seeing this new car as this business opportunity for the potential "builders"

[Steve Boyd]

i'd even bet stellantis will join with one of its brands tooStellantis could join with multiple brands. Same spaceframe & mechanicals, just a few different body panels & maybe lights. Lancia in Italy, Peugeot or Citröen in France, Opel in Northern Europe.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This was the idea with the spaceframe for the Rally1 Cars, but it didnt attract any new Manufacturers.

Was it the really the costs that put them off or are most not seeing the advertising potential in rallying any more ?

And with most road cars going electric, who is going to want an ICE rally car to promote their car / brand ...

[saco0o]

ahh the hybrids were the problem imo. too expensive even for msport

regarding advertising, i may be the only one here thinking this, but i honestly dont see where manufacturers and big sponsors can think there is RoI (exposure and promoting new tech) in such a small niche sport built on the back of regular competitors - who have beem removed from their dreams of competing in the world championship due this rise in costs.

sometimes i even think we dont need 'road relevance', we need 'rally fans mental loop' relevance. like when chicherit built that beautiful lancia in rallycross. or when some finnish autocross driver brings a beautiful starlet with a rotatoy engine to a race.
thats what seems to move us, not a resized suv
we are the ones watching it, consuming it, traveling to watch. we like that stuff. why this sudden need of 'pleasing rich manufacturers' at the cost of losing the competitors who built and build the sport, u'know?

lol weird math but it makes sense in my head
edit: yes, i understand 'world championships' are more business than sport. 'thats why'

[WRCStan]

This commercial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7lBA5aX-iI) was banned in the UK for encouraging unsafe driving. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y5ez8189lo)

Ever noticed how in every car commercial they're travelling at 5kph or not moving at all?

Driving at breakneck speed through trees, jumps, losing traction on corners... isn't what the car companies are allowed to sell. WRC can only appeal to so many small, rebellious, performance car brands - IF the FIA would only accommodate them; and Toyota, the global behemoth bigger than the bodies that makes the policies.

[saco0o]

uuuuuuhhhhh... touché.

[pedro16]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-2027-regulations-attracting-interest-from-tuners-and-manufacturers/10738272/

"Autosport understands that there is also at least one manufacturer edging closer to a potential announcement which could result in a new player joining the WRC from 2027.

It is understood a meeting with a manufacturer, to discuss its potential future involvement, will take place at Rally di Roma this week."

Potential of 2 tuners and 1 manufacturer as of now

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hayden Paddon wants in with a team of his own...

https://speedcafe.com/motorsport-news-2025-hayden-padodn-on-fia-world-rally-championship-team-ambition-privateer-plans-exclusive-details/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR4EOp8ZE7YnHGE3fAUq9s9p NRQgGdaW_KDe7nNKuXHJu9Jq5Ru1PJbeppyLKg_aem_dzw2GY0 RWz1_BXCpZtV1QQ

[Fast Eddie WRC]

18 months to go and even M-Sport, the biggest rally 'tuner' of them all, isnt starting work yet...

"M-Sport confirmed earlier this month that it's looking at the regulations to see what is possible, but the British squad requires more details on the future direction of the WRC before it is in a position to commit."

[saco0o]

hmm.... and "apparently" theres "some talk about a Ypslon rally2 test with Bonato". ??
sure, rally2s will be allowed in 27' but heyy hope that motivates stellantis to build cars too...?

(and I dont see msport not participating, especially because now they got what they wanted: a place to build and sell cars. maybe they are waiting on the UK/Ireland championships to agree on allowing the new cars there?)

[1988senna]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-2027-regulations-attracting-interest-from-tuners-and-manufacturers/10738272/

"Autosport understands that there is also at least one manufacturer edging closer to a potential announcement which could result in a new player joining the WRC from 2027.

It is understood a meeting with a manufacturer, to discuss its potential future involvement, will take place at Rally di Roma this week."

Potential of 2 tuners and 1 manufacturer as of now

So what's the potential 2 tuners and 1 manufacturer，any name of that , is that possible for the STLA

[wyler]

So what's the potential 2 tuners and 1 manufacturer，any name of that , is that possible for the STLA

toyota
m-sport
hiunday (via paddon)
:D :D :D

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It is understood a meeting with a manufacturer, to discuss its potential future involvement, will take place at Rally di Roma this week."



A meeting in Rome, so maybe it is Lancia ?

[saco0o]

So what's the potential 2 tuners and 1 manufacturer，any name of that , is that possible for the STLA

"2 tuners", 1 potential manufacturer, toyota
then again, we should have zero reasons to believe msport and skoda motorsport would just quit, cuz they have good business models in this R5 level (maybe its something like waiting to see if national championships will be ok with the new cars vs R5s)
...then paddon?
thats like 7 potential entries already not counting the number of cars each builders may sell or each team may enter. I know its only speculation and guesses but heyyyy, felling optimistic!

do know if the tubeframes are "the same" from last years? hehe cuz hyundai, gazoo and msport have more than 30 (each) of those already built in house.

[deephouse]

My only guess is Lancia. Of course still hoping that all three which are competing now will stay also, but I'm sceptical with Hyundai, more than with M-Sport (they always find the way to be here). For Toyota I don't have doubt, probably they will be more than ready and start showing results right away (haha with ''semi-retired'' Ogier).

I wonder how would they made things work for live coverage if there would be 20+ cars on the grid (Rally1 cars or whatever they will be called). They will surely can't continue just like that with this long stages, showing gentlemans, long intervals or more importantly where they will put Rally2 cars, because right now honestly many people don't have time to watch everything with 10 cars for 4 days straight for a whole day. So I really don't have a clue what needs to be done, rather to implement various cameras again or simultaneous coverage (so the user can eatch whatever they ant or whoever they want)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That's a fair point on the TV coverage.

People say that the current amount of Rally1 Cars isnt enough for the top level. But trying to watch & follow just these is a big job (for the tv producers and the fans) and especially on long stages.

If their were 20 or 30 entries in the top class, who would get the coverage ?

[doubled1978]

That's a fair point on the TV coverage.

People say that the current amount of Rally1 Cars isnt enough for the top level. But trying to watch & follow just these is a big job (for the tv producers and the fans) and especially on long stages.

If their were 20 or 30 entries in the top class, who would get the coverage ?

The top guys naturally. If we do get to 20/30 entries in the ‘top’ class, then clearly there won’t be 20/30 top drivers in them, so it’ll be those running at the front that get the coverage.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The top guys naturally. If we do get to 20/30 entries in the ‘top’ class, then clearly there won’t be 20/30 top drivers in them, so it’ll be those running at the front that get the coverage.

So what's the point if it'll just be the same elite drivers being shown ? What's the point for the newcomers and new teams or local specialists if they wont get any air time for their sponsors?

[rallyfiend]

So what's the point if it'll just be the same elite drivers being shown ? What's the point for the newcomers and new teams or local specialists if they wont get any air time for their sponsors?

Why should they if they're not performing?

No different to any other form of motorsport with big entries. Hell, even the back 4 or 5 teams of F1 get bugger all coverage....

[deephouse]

Indeed, if someone hit the trouble, lost few minutes and fall back, don't know 17th or 34th on the grid, he would never be shown again. This would need to be made good for everyone systematicaly. I don't say they need to put cameras in all cars, especially if there will be some one off specialists, but maybe 2 cameras shown at once from different crews or put back option for changing views from anyone and at any point you want.

But I guess they will need first to sort things out with page/app problems (fix crashing issues - for god's sake, we are in 2025, what kind of old servers they posses, more user friendly interface and stop taking away things that work perfectly).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Why should they if they're not performing?

No different to any other form of motorsport with big entries. Hell, even the back 4 or 5 teams of F1 get bugger all coverage....

That's not true. In F1 and other race series often the leader(s) dont get shown once they've established their position and they show racing down the field. Plus there's prizemoney too which there isnt in WRC.

Anyway, let's worry about this issue if we get a mass of entries in 2027...

[wyler]

So what's the point if it'll just be the same elite drivers being shown ? What's the point for the newcomers and new teams or local specialists if they wont get any air time for their sponsors?

that's exactly why the correlation rally2 = more competition/variety is not so valid. there will be the same team and drivers at the top.

on the tv side, they ll probably change a bit the approach, they ll have less onboard, some more heli, and way more air time of the 2/3 fix cameras (at least for the tv stage, all live may not change that much, think as a erc-ish). it will end up watching external shots of many cars in the same 2/3 corners, a bit like youtube live for erc/regional rally, let's say. on the good side (hopefully), the need for a bit more storytelling, or resume/hl to keep followers informed. the formula "on wrc2 side we heard that x has stop on the previous stage" wouldn't be enough.

[WRCStan]

Can't assume that there'll still be a promoter and live product even.

[wyler]

why not? rumors are "luxurious"

[WRCStan]

See several hundred pages of chat on this forum about the direction of things and why they're backing cost cuts and pandering to tuners. 2008-2012 repeats.

Look at Rallycross. Who said the same promoter would walk away so soon when they took it on?

Not saying doom and gloom will happen, just possibility.

[wyler]

See several hundred pages of chat on this forum about the direction of things and why they're backing cost cuts and pandering to tuners. 2008-2012 repeats.

Look at Rallycross. Who said the same promoter would walk away so soon when they took it on?

Not saying doom and gloom will happen, just possibility.

mine was just a pun about the rumors...

[saco0o]

oprtimistic expectation: but wait... if we had 30+ rally1s, But with all these guys being able to test more and race it more times to acquire experience, with locals being able to enter rally1s (but with experience from doing national championships on those cars), the "top5", "top10" would be always different. like in erc. the difference is literally that we have "9" rally1 cars and just 6 of those actually 'test' "a lot" (experience).
sure, the BEST RALLY DRIVERS on the planet would be faster in most of them, but thats the target. to have something that more people can race in more places to have more experience to fullfill their dreams of racing a world championship.

reality: toyota enters a 2 factory car team and beat the other 7 generic hatchbacks built by msport on the grid
LoL please Lord, noooo!

[WRCStan]

"Autosport understands that there is also at least one manufacturer edging closer to a potential announcement which could result in a new player joining the WRC from 2027.

It is understood a meeting with a manufacturer, to discuss its potential future involvement, will take place at Rally di Roma this week."

And...?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

And...?

Give them a chance, Rally di Roma only finished yesterday.

[Andre Oliveira]

It is Lancia.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It had to be. They are rallying.

A meeting in Rome, so maybe it is Lancia ?


If the WRC cant get them on board, what's the hope for any other Manufacturer...

[deephouse]

If we look close on current teams:

Toyota have great managment, 2 multiple champions, strong car, big number of drivers, youngster programme

Hyundai have Cyril, money (but rather spend it on tent), unreliable car, 2 world champions, least amount of drivers

M-Sport doesn't have much funding, have youngster programme fully, open to anybody with money, big team spirit, kinda in the middle car


So where does Lancia (if they would be coming) stand against these? They definitely won't cheat. I just hope that they will not bring up some average Italian driver just because he is and real talent will be seating out.

[focus206]

So where does Lancia (if they would be coming) stand against these? They definitely won't cheat. I just hope that they will not bring up some average Italian driver just because he is and real talent will be seating out.

We are not in 1987, you speak as if Lancia is an independent Italian brand, instead of a facelifted Peugeot. I don't think Stellantis would put a random Italian driver in their lineup just because 35 years ago Lancia was a relevant Italian brand.

[typhoon]

We are not in 1987, you speak as if Lancia is an independent Italian brand, instead of a facelifted Peugeot. I don't think Stellantis would put a random Italian driver in their lineup just because 35 years ago Lancia was a relevant Italian brand.

If Daprà grows and gain experience this year and in 2026, he might target a 3rd car, but nothing else I think for now, because Lancia would definitely need two top drivers to challenge Toyota or Hyundai (if stays...)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's a fair question, who can take on the established WRC Teams ?

Toyota came in with a huge budget, and the previous newcomer to succeed was the giant that is VW, plus they had the new great driver in Ogier.

Hyundai have mostly struggled to compete with Toyota despite a good budget and top drivers and M-Sport have only succeeded with Ogier but otherwise been nowhere near the other Manufacturer teams.

Any new team would need mega money to afford to compete and have to pay top salary to poach one of the elite drivers.

I just dont see it happening.

[typhoon]

It's a fair question, who can take on the established WRC Teams ?

Toyota came in with a huge budget, and the previous newcomer to succeed was the giant that is VW, plus they had the new great driver in Ogier.

Hyundai have mostly struggled to compete with Toyota despite a good budget and top drivers and M-Sport have only succeeded with Ogier but otherwise been nowhere near the other Manufacturer teams.

Any new team would need mega money to afford to compete and have to pay top salary to poach one of the elite drivers.

I just dont see it happening.

If Lancia commits to WRC27, I believe it would have a huge sponsorship from TotalEnergies and probably something from the Middle East like it was with Citroen and Abu Dhabi (I assume the WRC going to Saudi Arabia might be interesting for some region investors) or I can think about sponsorships coming from the US, since WRC will probably sell TV rights at very cheap price to push the access to the US market.

If the WRC will be shown on US networks, having also other 2 events in about the same timezones, plus if they continue and make an even better More Than Machine, it could be a good breakthrough for the series, in order to involve further sponsors from the region.

[Sulland]

All manufacturers should have to come with two teams. 1 team of top crews as now. Team 2 with crews with a mix of young talent and paying gentlemen.

By this we will see more rally1 cars, and talents can compete with the best in same equipmemt!

[PLuto]

All manufacturers should have to come with two teams. 1 team of top crews as now. Team 2 with crews with a mix of young talent and paying gentlemen.

By this we will see more rally1 cars, and talents can compete with the best in same equipmemt!

Which manufacturers? Currently there is only one car manufacturer interested in building car according to (still not finally defined) 2027 regulations...

[deephouse]

As we all assume it will be Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT, Toyota GR WRT, GR WRT, Gazoo WRT and all current drivers spread across this teams :P

[denkimi]

I wouldn’t be mad if toyota had 4 teams and all drivers had the same car. It would be a unique chance to see who is the actual best of them all.

[Morte66]

All manufacturers should have to come with two teams. 1 team of top crews as now. Team 2 with crews with a mix of young talent and paying gentlemen.

By this we will see more rally1 cars, and talents can compete with the best in same equipmemt!

Any plan based on rules "forcing" teams to do what we want, fails when the teams decide not to enter a championship with those rules.

Teams can't be forced, they have to be lured.

[deephouse]

True but some rules must be there, otherwise again the biggest, the richest and most powerful teams would dominate. That 2027 rules could be one of the best if it will really open the door to many manufacturers and teams. They open stuff for many various things so brands could see something they can sell. Also whining how it's impossible to build a machine under 400,000 is just excuses and only those whine who are already out with a leg and half.

When do we have this thing the last time? I always said the rules should be more open, regarding engine, parts, chassis because the chance of entering with various teams is way bigger than such a restricted rules until now.

[Steve Boyd]

The British Touring Car Championship technical rules are interesting and derived from a need to have a wide selection of cars entered without huge development costs. There are specified transmissions & suspension parts like hub uprights and strict controls on engines, with the option of using a championship spec engine from a single supplier, if the car manufacturer/team doesn't have a suitable engine or doesn't want to develop their own. The bodyshell is from any suitable production car, but the bits underneath are closely controlled to keep costs down and the championship open. Could this work in WRC?

[PLuto]

The British Touring Car Championship technical rules are interesting and derived from a need to have a wide selection of cars entered without huge development costs. There are specified transmissions & suspension parts like hub uprights and strict controls on engines, with the option of using a championship spec engine from a single supplier, if the car manufacturer/team doesn't have a suitable engine or doesn't want to develop their own. The bodyshell is from any suitable production car, but the bits underneath are closely controlled to keep costs down and the championship open. Could this work in WRC?

Thats the question. You need to find a way how to manage finances in the sport. Currently rallysport is based on manufacturers. And they are not interested in using "single" parts from other manufacturers. There was an attempt with R4 kit category. When some customers were interested in it, manufacturers were fighting against it. So it died...

[Humber]

My understanding is that Car/ vehicle manufacturers have fleet (over the range of vehicles they make) emission targets to meet at certain years in the future. (EU fleet CO2 emissions by 2030, for passenger cars to be a reduction of 55% compared to 2021 levels)

Very likely that European manufacturers of passenger cars are not going to be promoting their liquid carbon fuel burning models to meet the targets and avoid fines.

For this year, up to June 2025 Europe new car market sales are now slightly over 50 percent for sales of new battery electric cars (15.6%) combined with hybrid electric (34.8%).

The small shop race/ rally car builders can see that support is going to come from only a few manufacturers who want to continue to support the liquid fuels with their brand in motorsport.
e.g We have seen for a long time support for the TCR small car international track race category runs warm and cold from certain manufacturers.
Brazil, 2025 can get close to 30 new spaceframe cars on the grid for their Stock Car Pro series labelled as Mitsubishi, Chevrolet and Toyota.

If the FIA comes to the table the N5 category might be a (at least ) regionally (non large manufacturer) homologated budget class (rally field supplementer) as manufacturers do not care so much about a small number of liquid fuel burners at the back of a rally field, especially if the big brand manufacturers do not have to put any money into it and can distance themselves from the fuel race/ rally cars. https://www.gotothegrid.com/en/blog/the-n5-rally-cars-an-alternative-to-rally2 (2024)

[WRCStan]

The British Touring Car Championship technical rules are interesting and derived from a need to have a wide selection of cars entered without huge development costs. There are specified transmissions & suspension parts like hub uprights and strict controls on engines, with the option of using a championship spec engine from a single supplier, if the car manufacturer/team doesn't have a suitable engine or doesn't want to develop their own. The bodyshell is from any suitable production car, but the bits underneath are closely controlled to keep costs down and the championship open. Could this work in WRC?

What about 'homologation' rules? Do BMW/Hyundai/Ford HAVE TO be involved with their makes? The only official involvement I see is our good friends from Toyota. Technical rules are kind of moot if this remains an obstacle in WRC.

[Steve Boyd]

What about 'homologation' rules? Do BMW/Hyundai/Ford HAVE TO be involved with their makes? The only official involvement I see is our good friends from Toyota. Technical rules are kind of moot if this remains an obstacle in WRC.The cars have to comply with the "NGTC" rules that the BTCC organisers wrote in 2011. Unfortunately they are on a password protected site. There's a general summary here https://btcc.net/about/key-rules-and-regulations/ with a link to this year's championship sporting & additional technical rules. They doesn't answer your question but the web page does say:
The NGTC regulations allows independent teams to compete on a level playing field against manufacturer-backed efforts by keeping costs down whilst at the same time rewarding precise engineering and all-important split-second strategy.So it looks like there's no need for a link between a team and the manufacturer of the car they're using.

There is also a link to a summary of the 2027 rules, here https://btcc.net/about/2027-technical-regulations/ which states
Firstly, TOCA has unlocked the necessity for the specific model of the car to be sold in the UK.Clearly any current restriction the BTCC has about cars needing to be sold in the UK wouldn't be relevant to WRC but the principle of letting independant teams develop thier own cars and compete against manufacturers might open a door for the likes of Prodrive & Paddon to join MSport in the WRC. The only battle they'd then have would be budget, for which we really need WRC Promoter to do a better job of marketing the championship so that sponsors are easier to get involved.

[denkimi]

My understanding is that Car/ vehicle manufacturers have fleet (over the range of vehicles they make) emission targets to meet at certain years in the future. (EU fleet CO2 emissions by 2030, for passenger cars to be a reduction of 55% compared to 2021 levels)

Very likely that European manufacturers of passenger cars are not going to be promoting their liquid carbon fuel burning models to meet the targets and avoid fines.

we haven't had a european manufacturer in the championship since 2019, so maybe it's time to stop caring about them. Europe is fucked anyway with the grazy green fundamentalists at the rudder.

But there are a lot of opportunities in the rest of the world. a lot of people wo still want progress and not degrowth.

[PLuto]

we haven't had a european manufacturer in the championship since 2019, so maybe it's time to stop caring about them. Europe is fucked anyway with the grazy green fundamentalists at the rudder.

But there are a lot of opportunities in the rest of the world. a lot of people wo still want progress and not degrowth.

But rallysport is based on money from manufacturers. Not only on WRC level, but also in lot of national championships local dealers are supporting the drivers. But for sure bigger problem it is on the highest level, because FIA and promoter lives from money from manufacturers (WRC level, homologation fees etc.). Also dont forget that in rallysport car are going on normal roads, not only on closed roads during special stages. So they must follow some rules to be able to run on normal roads...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota's Tom Fowler about the 2027 engine regulations...

https://rallyjournal.com/major-revelation-from-toyota-boss-core-principles-of-2027-regulations-already-agreed/

[WRCStan]

Toyota's Tom Fowler about the 2027 engine regulations...

https://rallyjournal.com/major-revelation-from-toyota-boss-core-principles-of-2027-regulations-already-agreed/

The future is bright.

[saco0o]

Toyota's Tom Fowler about the 2027 engine regulations...

https://rallyjournal.com/major-revelation-from-toyota-boss-core-principles-of-2027-regulations-already-agreed/

i kinda like that tbf. and toyota is IN. thats 1
just hoping there are 'tuners' ready to come. msport could say something, like "yeah, that fits our plans", just for the sake of it. skoda motorsport could say something too. just to calm us down, ffs! lol

[deephouse]

News regarding WRC world are always late (too late). All other series do have big announcements way earlier than we got here in WRC. We only get some crumbs in a shape of rumours and that last until the december. And at the end nothing new come out.

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/the-next-step-for-wrcs-crucial-2027-rules/10750260/

Some more news regarding the roll cage of the ‘27 cars.

[WRCStan]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/the-next-step-for-wrcs-crucial-2027-rules/10750260/

Some more news regarding the roll cage of the ‘27 cars.

Much more than the roll cage.

Is it the first time we've heard from an official/journalistic source:
*Rally2 to be phased out
*Tuners can build chasses.

Nothing about the engine talk makes sense to me but this is further brightness for the future. And when I say bright, I mean they are doing something realistic to stop the series dying a death.

[Steve Boyd]

Much more than the roll cage.

Is it the first time we've heard from an official/journalistic source:
*Rally2 to be phased outBut current Rally2 cars will run alongside the new WRC2027 cars to begin with and WRC2027 cars will be able to compete in FIA Regional championships. We may see bigger "top class" entries on WRC events as a result when some ERC competitors do European WRC events and when National Rally2 drivers do thier local WRC event. We will also be able to see the difference between the top WRC drivers and those in the lower championships when this happens.

[flat_right]

I'm starting to like where the WRC is heading. Although there’s a small step back from the speed, excitement, and enjoyment of watching committed driving in a fast Rally1 car but this is basically only visible when attending stages. And Toyota taking positions 1–5 isn’t good for anyone. So we need more competitive teams. For most fans who aren’t out on the stages, the real excitement comes from close competition.

Does anyone know — or has anyone read somewhere — whether under the 2027 regulations we’ll lose the “jokers”? What I mean is: will teams be able to tune their cars at any time? For me, the joker system is a bit of a joke, because if you get things fundamentally wrong on day one, it’s pretty much impossible to catch up.

[deephouse]

It's not Toyota's fault being dominant, but it's Hyundai and potentialy M-Sport (I mean Ford, because they don't fund them properly). Remember VW era. It was the same case. Hyundai struggling and then catch up little bit and then again falling back every single time.

[EstWRC]

[QUOTE=flat_right;1366188]I'm starting to like where the WRC is heading. Although there’s a small step back from the speed, excitement, and enjoyment of watching committed driving in a fast Rally1 car but this is basically only visible when attending stages. /QUOTE]

totally disagreeing here, its also very visible from TV

[WRCStan]

But current Rally2 cars will run alongside the new WRC2027 cars to begin with and WRC2027 cars will be able to compete in FIA Regional championships. We may see bigger "top class" entries on WRC events as a result when some ERC competitors do European WRC events and when National Rally2 drivers do thier local WRC event. We will also be able to see the difference between the top WRC drivers and those in the lower championships when this happens.

I'm not sure what your 'but' is?

There's no good reason why WRC2027 won't be able to compete any/everywhere. Rallys 2/3/4/5 will expire and these will be replaced with the new cars. So no good reason to expect the top field to shrink again after this crossover period ends, if this is your point. UNLESS - the time comes where they want to promote a showbiz 'WRC+' class again which is not on the horizon.

[flat_right]

totally disagreeing here, its also very visible from TV

Of course it is but if you are close to the track it is more prominent and you can sense the speed and noise. Sure… fan videos will be worse… but official broadcast doesn’t give you the same feeling speed wise.

[Steve Boyd]

I'm not sure what your 'but' is?It was your quote that said "Rally2 to be phased out" sounded to me a bit like they wouldn't be used after this year (though that may well not have been your intention). I was just trying to emphasise that while there would be no new homologations the current cars would still be around for a few years yet with the advantage that the top level cars in the regional series would in future be the same as the top WRC cars.

[saco0o]

its getting interesting imo.
the cars will not be as fast as the rally1s but if im being honest, erc has been my favorite for a while, so no problemo (FOR ME).
i like competition and variety: local entries and eventual cool one-offs. i think the cool stories are there, not in seeing the same guys for another 4 or 5 seasons

[deephouse]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/mikkelsen-trying-to-convince-skoda-to-join-wrc-in-2027/ Mikkelsen is trying to convince Skoda to join WRC in 2027.

also Skoda Motorsport tease with that on FB story. https://ibb.co/vCtszZ9q

[saco0o]

as we were saying a couple of months ago, this new 'business model' (build cars able to compete in wrc, erc, national championships) will be as good or even better as the current rally2 market. sure, anyone can build a car now, but the teams already in business know how to do it. (msport, skoda motorsport, toyota, the stellantis racing division etc)

[flat_right]

https://rallyjournal.com/hyundai-issues-strong-warning-over-wrc-future/

Hyundai again threatening to leave. This time it is the powertrain that does not suit them.

[WRCStan]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/mikkelsen-trying-to-convince-skoda-to-join-wrc-in-2027/ Mikkelsen is trying to convince Skoda to join WRC in 2027.

also Skoda Motorsport tease with that on FB story. https://ibb.co/vCtszZ9q

The link between the Enyaq and WRC2027 is a tad optimistic for me.

[TypeR]

https://rallyjournal.com/hyundai-issues-strong-warning-over-wrc-future/

Hyundai again threatening to leave. This time it is the powertrain that does not suit them.
Why asking so little favours.. better ask straight away that they would like to keep using same rally1 cars while others are allowed to race rally2 or even rally3 cars.. :D

Tired of their ,,I will cry without candy'' stories..

[saco0o]

hmmmm wait. if the car must cost 340k $ (? is that the number?), can they build and sell for a profit?? i just thought that. imagine Skoda Motorsport builds cars... can they make it for a decent price in order to be able to sell it (and profit) for 340$? (i forgot the actual price, sorry)

or, for example, can Toyota build their new cars that would cost 500k bucks and simply not sell? use it just for the factory team? (while saying "nah, but for US it costed 340k $, we are not selling it because we would not make a profit and we cannot sell it for 500k $ according to this new deal)

i wish we could have a good press conference with all out doubts answered

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What a mess. I just dont see a way ahead in 2027 with all the different Manufacturer Teams and any possible tuners all wanting different things.

And its already so late now that whatever is decided most wont be able to get their car ready in time.

I can see it all being put back another year.

[WRCStan]

I can see it all being put back another year.

What for? There's very low R&D isn't there? Engine and running gear exists, safety cell drawings will exist soon, bodywork frame exists?

[WRCStan]

can Toyota build their new cars that would cost 500k bucks and simply not sell? use it just for the factory team? (while saying "nah, but for US it costed 340k $, we are not selling it because we would not make a profit and we cannot sell it for 500k $ according to this new deal)

In the past they have added to the rules that the car must be available to the public for purchase. It's a possible option and a likely option if they are phasing Rally2 out.

Can they sell it for profit? Easier to wait and see how many start Monte 27. If it can't be done, it won't be done. Maybe the cost cap is just a statement of intent used for shaping discussion of the future only.

[wyler]

brand "to sell" will not do wrc, they ll build car that profit whitin the budget cap. manus will do car for wrc that uses all the money they have, and maybe keep a "rally2" version to sell among the others.

[WRCStan]

brand "to sell" will not do wrc, they ll build car that profit whitin the budget cap.

What if they have to 'do wrc' in order to sell 'WRC2027'? It's been like this for 30 years.

[Humber]

Could the 2027 WRC end up like 1981. Rothmans turning up with a determined driver (Vatanen), a proven car (the Escort Mk2) and sufficient sponsorship to do enough rounds.

What could 2027 be like? Determined driver (with a private non-manufacturer sponsor) turns up with a proven Rally2 and takes enough points to win the driver's title?

2027 - Hyundai pulls out, Toyota drivers with less powerful cars at the front lose time at gravel rallies, which lets others through on the leaderboard.

[wyler]

What if they have to 'do wrc' in order to sell 'WRC2027'? It's been like this for 30 years.

what u mean? lots of rally2/3/4 car manufacturers don't do wrc, they just sell to clients.

[WRCStan]

what u mean? lots of rally2/3/4 car manufacturers don't do wrc, they just sell to clients.

True lower down, but a manuf couldn't homologate a World Rally Car or Rally1 without also entering the manufs championship. That got some manufs doing a season or two just for the paper stamp, Skoda, Suzuki, Mini...

WRC+ 2017- on took it further; privateers could only enter their own purchases through the corresponding manuf doing a full season.

When the car is called 'WRC2027' why wouldn't they protect the championship in a similar way? Say to a manuf, if they want to profit from the industry, they have to pay the dues.

[wyler]

True lower down, but a manuf couldn't homologate a World Rally Car or Rally1 without also entering the manufs championship. That got some manufs doing a season or two just for the paper stamp, Skoda, Suzuki, Mini...

WRC+ 2017- on took it further; privateers could only enter their own purchases through the corresponding manuf doing a full season.

When the car is called 'WRC2027' why wouldn't they protect the championship in a similar way? Say to a manuf, if they want to profit from the industry, they have to pay the dues.

i know, and that's why i said that, 'cause the business is not in the top tier championship now...

manufacturers that only want a client service will stay with a "r5/rally2" business model, won't do wrc (aka top tier championship) and will sell car that can profit even with a cost cap of 350/400k. manufactures with aim in the championship (toyota, some tuners, maybe hiunday, m-sport?) will develop wrc27 car for the championship using more money than the cost cap, and probably not sell much of that (can a tuner other than m-sport support a 100+ piece business for selling? doubt it). toyota and hiunday will stay with current model, "rally2" for sale, "wrc" for top championship.

[WRCStan]

If the FIA want to shoot themselves in the foot then that is a good set up, but there's a pickle in your point. I get what you're saying about business models but Rally2 is going, to be replaced by 'WRC2027'. Nobody is buying Toyota and Hyundai Rally2s in 2033, because Rally2 won't exist. Where do those customers take their business? It's into this ultimately universal affordable car that'll go into all the championships. Possibly too, the same homologation could cover detunings and two wheel drives to replace Rallys3/4/5. Who knows, no reason why not. It's also possible to have a higher tuned WRC2027+ for WRC too, however it's not important now.

What is important, is they haven't got either the willing manufacturers or willing promoter who choose to go around the world doing 14 rounds; thus we're in this thread talking about a necessary new car for WRC.

Give them a reward for doing the WRC championship: homologation for a universal affordable rally car. Also give them a device to secure proper, business-like, investment from proper business-like funding sources: profit through that homologation. What flaw am I not seeing?

Do you just sit back and hope somebody will want to do WRC, then sit back again and hope that they can get 'sponsors' to pay for it? Meanwhile, allowing businesses to profit off your industry, selling thousands of cars and drives, snatching customers from those willing teams doing your WRC championship? OK.

[wyler]

If the FIA want to shoot themselves in the foot then that is a good set up, but there's a pickle in your point. I get what you're saying about business models but Rally2 is going, to be replaced by 'WRC2027'. Nobody is buying Toyota and Hyundai Rally2s in 2033, because Rally2 won't exist. Where do those customers take their business? It's into this ultimately universal affordable car that'll go into all the championships. Possibly too, the same homologation could cover detunings and two wheel drives to replace Rallys3/4/5. Who knows, no reason why not. It's also possible to have a higher tuned WRC2027+ for WRC too, however it's not important now.

What is important, is they haven't got either the willing manufacturers or willing promoter who choose to go around the world doing 14 rounds; thus we're in this thread talking about a necessary new car for WRC.

Give them a reward for doing the WRC championship: homologation for a universal affordable rally car. Also give them a device to secure proper, business-like, investment from proper business-like funding sources: profit through that homologation. What flaw am I not seeing?

Do you just sit back and hope somebody will want to do WRC, then sit back again and hope that they can get 'sponsors' to pay for it? Meanwhile, allowing businesses to profit off your industry, selling thousands of cars and drives, snatching customers from those willing teams doing your WRC championship? OK.

i see just this flaw:
why manufacturers like skoda, stellantis, renault, even m-sport would give up a "flat" market like rally2 to chase the biggest manu (toyota) in competition?

the reason r5/rally2 are so successfull is because there's no manus championship there. they're not top notch competition, and brand can sell a lot -or enough- just being in the mix. it's ok to deliver a product that can win some race to clients, whitout having an official team to prove it winning championships. it just works. even old m-sport fiesta is still in the mix in erc... rally3 is the same. rally4 as well.

add a committed manu (aka toyota) for the overall win, and this levelled field will blow up. they will use all the money they have anyway. if it's not the car itself, will be test or development or communication or engineers -whatever, they ll use the money to win-. tuners like m-sport will lag behind just as now, and the privateers that now share the car market will move toward the best car and leave the others behind.
when skoda was offical team in wrc2 they dominated the market, and fabia is still the best selling car years after. yaris is rising because is made by the top manufacturer, i20 is nowhere near in term of numbers. m-sport and stellantis faded in numbers. just look at the entries everywhere.

as for top tier, i don't think a cost cap will erase this money difference. it will make it easier to enter, but will not level the field. and if you change the regulation focus from selling to winning, the market can collapse, as selling will not be that much of a reward as u think in the top tier.

i see more a top tier for officials with 3/4 manus or tuners and a second tier of client manufacturers. if u force the client one to compete on top, i fear u may lose some (skoda - reanult) on marketing/pr roi as bad results publicity will be worse than losing the client sales.

[WRCStan]

i see just this flaw:
why manufacturers like skoda, stellantis, renault, even m-sport would give up a "flat" market like rally2 to chase the biggest manu (toyota) in competition?

They don't have to give up any markets. They just have to contribute something by turning up to WRC. They don't have to win or beat TGR to get anything, I don't propose anything conditional on results. So they could even turn that into a marketable opportunity, sending in some willing pay drivers who pootle round as has always been the case. Might even attract some sponsorship! However, you're right, winning a WRC rally or championship is a good way to flog rally cars, so there's this incentive to push.

But crucially for me, those types of consumer-series car names are not the future, there's no link anymore so why restrict it to them? It's why the FIA are pivoting away from and opening up rally to the motorsport companies - the tuners. Say the manufacturers championship standings could be, and the makes seen in all the national championships in 10 years time are:

1. Toyota GR
2. LifeLive
3. Prodrive
4. M-Sport
5. Paddonsport
6. Oreca
7. Lancia
8. Pastrana Subaru
9. Stohl
10. MEM
11. ....etc...

Maybe it doesn't end up working like this, or it does but is not a success. But it is a nice possibility to believe in. We're here in "WRC mainclass" so your thoughts on the success of R5/Rally2 aside, how do you get entries into the WRC mainclass? If there is a higher tuned WRC car where nobody was forced to do it, who do you realistically see willing to compete against Toyota in 2027? The promoter wants out so we can assume they don't want to back anybody, although with the cheaper cars they might. So at best it'd still be two teams chasing Toyota in the way Hyundai and M-Sport do now.

1. Toyota GR * 4/5 cars
2. M-Sport * 2 cars
3. FIA Rallystar * 2 cars

We're here now and they're wanting to get away from it. Nobody here even wants that, do they?

[wyler]

They don't have to give up any markets. They just have to contribute something by turning up to WRC. They don't have to win or beat TGR to get anything, I don't propose anything conditional on results. So they could even turn that into a marketable opportunity, sending in some willing pay drivers who pootle round as has always been the case. Might even attract some sponsorship! However, you're right, winning a WRC rally or championship is a good way to flog rally cars, so there's this incentive to push.

But crucially for me, those types of consumer-series car names are not the future, there's no link anymore so why restrict it to them? It's why the FIA are pivoting away from and opening up rally to the motorsport companies - the tuners. Say the manufacturers championship standings could be, and the makes seen in all the national championships in 10 years time are:

1. Toyota GR
2. LifeLive
3. Prodrive
4. M-Sport
5. Paddonsport
6. Oreca
7. Lancia
8. Pastrana Subaru
9. Stohl
10. MEM
11. ....etc...

Maybe it doesn't end up working like this, or it does but is not a success. But it is a nice possibility to believe in. We're here in "WRC mainclass" so your thoughts on the success of R5/Rally2 aside, how do you get entries into the WRC mainclass? If there is a higher tuned WRC car where nobody was forced to do it, who do you realistically see willing to compete against Toyota in 2027? The promoter wants out so we can assume they don't want to back anybody, although with the cheaper cars they might. So at best it'd still be two teams chasing Toyota in the way Hyundai and M-Sport do now.

1. Toyota GR * 4/5 cars
2. M-Sport * 2 cars
3. FIA Rallystar * 2 cars

We're here now and they're wanting to get away from it. Nobody here even wants that, do they?

er. it's the same thing i was saying all along.

u made a list of basically 1 manufacturer and some tuners. i was exactly saying that manufactures will not invest in this model of top championship. they will not enter for charity, for helping the series or making it more interesting for fans. for them interesting = making more money than invested (and selling car is not the point anymore, the point is all about marketing, brand visibility, reputation. sadly, rally does not have the right stats for this atm)

it's quite clear that the main idea of fia/promoter is to move the championship from manufacturers to privateers to increase the numbers, 'cause they are not able to generate enough interest in the wrc series to make big manufacturers invest money in it for -basically- marketing returns.
but rally is a sport and not an enterprise, so is totally ok to move to lower money to have more participants at the cost of leveling down the sport and the show. maybe a bit harsh for long-time fans, but ok.

that way, manufacturers will not use their name -aka brand identity, credibility, reputation- for this. they are ok with this rally2 model in which they sell car to others but not compete directly. if u force them into first-hand competition, they'll leave. That's the market that's giving up. And that's why we don't have any news about the new pyramid for '27 on, cause they're looking for a solution to not disrupt regional rally with the new wrc reg. why they did not simply go to rally2 for '27? because manus said no. hiunday + toyota to not lose "eliteness" for the brand. skoda, stellantis, renault to not enter this competition market.

wrc need a mainclass that is attractive in term of selling tv shows, selling merchandise, increase brand visibility on media (social and traditional). generate revenue for the participants. in the same way of f1, or nba or football. or any other sport.

u can choose to go the manufacturers way, or go to the privateers way. i'm not here to say what's right or wrong. i'm just saying that's hard to stay in the middle as they did before. (wrc for marketing/eliteness and regional rally for selling cars) let's see the new era!

lancia is a good example. their sport director said to italian media: rally 4 is just a little marketing test for the brand visibility. if lancia flag will appear enough around the world and the media, then maybe the board will give green light to a rally2 step, but for now, we are just testing if motorsport is responding enough for invest in it. 100+ car produced is a good start to harald the brand, he said.

let's hope so. it's all about this. let's hope the new promoter ( if they can find one...) will be able to increase the capability of wrc in that sense!

[WRCStan]

u made a list of basically 1 manufacturer and some tuners.

What is a manufacturer to you?

I made a list of 10 manufacturers of rally cars that'd be available for sale to the public (hypothetically). They'd all be manufacturers, manufacturing manufacturers' wares. You might say "but I can't buy one". Yes you could. "You don't see anybody driving them on the roads". How often do you see a Rally1/2/3/4/5 being driven?

Lancia built 100 Rally4s already? Great, why not allow low-volume car manufacturers in to that market? Why does there need to be 25,000 similar looking cars of a different construction, different fuel type, sharing little comforts and components... etc.. it doesn't make sense. It would only make sense if Lancia/Stellantis were pouring enough bucks into the FIA coffers, but it appears the manufs are all in crises.


why they did not simply go to rally2 for '27?

This is a long term reset and transformation for sustainability into the next decades, not a 'how do we scrape through another season with the existing players'. The 'touring car' is dead, going rallying with a 'modified series-production touring car' is dead, and there's zero link between a rally car and 'SUV' mobility vehicle/android phone on wheels.

[focus206]

What is a manufacturer to you?

I made a list of 10 manufacturers of rally cars that'd be available for sale to the public (hypothetically). They'd all be manufacturers, manufacturing manufacturers' wares. You might say "but I can't buy one". Yes you could. "You don't see anybody driving them on the roads". How often do you see a Rally1/2/3/4/5 being driven?

Lancia built 100 Rally4s already? Great, why not allow low-volume car manufacturers in to that market? Why does there need to be 25,000 similar looking cars of a different construction, different fuel type, sharing little comforts and components... etc.. it doesn't make sense. It would only make sense if Lancia/Stellantis were pouring enough bucks into the FIA coffers, but it appears the manufs are all in crises.



This is a long term reset and transformation for sustainability into the next decades, not a 'how do we scrape through another season with the existing players'. The 'touring car' is dead, going rallying with a 'modified series-production touring car' is dead, and there's zero link between a rally car and 'SUV' mobility vehicle/android phone on wheels.

So you want rally championships to cease to exist and replace them with... a buggy championship? Like buggies we see in Dakar, such as the MD Optimus buggy, or Extreme E? Because what you're describing don't seem to be rally cars. A championship that uses buggies is not a rally championship, just like a championship that uses motorbikes is not a rally championship. Would be the same as suggesting that touring car series start using single seaters, they wouldn't be touring car series anymore.
The argument of "rally cars have strayed so far from their origins, let's just abandon the concept of rally car altogether and have a rally championship without rally cars" doesn't seem to fix the patient's problem, it eliminates the patient.
Unless you mean that cars made by tuners like the Swedish Mitsubishi Mirage R5 should be allowed to compete, in that case I agree. Could you give some example (real or not) of cars you'd see running?

"going rallying with a 'modified series-production touring car' is dead": 99,9% (probably more) of rally cars in the world are modified series production cars, there are quite big entry lists filled with those all over Europe.

[WRCStan]

Please don't suggest I want to see a buggy championship. Is a Rally1 a buggy? Is a Rally1 a touring car?

These new rules allow for bespoke designs by tuners. Do you want to call them buggies because they don't have a Toyota badge on? I'm not going near the word. You are free to call them that, I disagree. Can you tell me the 'tuners' are not manufacturers IF they offer their builds for sale? Why and how?

Yes there are many series-production touring car bodyshells being rallied. They are not modified touring cars - and they're practically all deprecated or on their way. How many common parts are between a C3 on the street and a Rally2?

[WRCStan]

Could you give some example (real or not) of cars you'd see running?

How about a McRae R4 of today, space frame style.

[saco0o]

what about these ones? lol
really cheap, fast, spec ford engines (tho some used Illmor engines in RX?), tube frames and ugly body kits to remember 'road cars"... theres a MercedesISH, the second one is a fiestaISH? or an audiISH? haha something like that. they had another models at some point, also ugly.
just work on that bodykit.

andros trophy series used stuff like that too. french 'division 3' in rallycross also have stuff like that. its cool cuz their engines are on the back, so its like some of those old group b cars where they open the 'back' of the car and its just tubes and the engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9RaepuCtlE

[Sal yet again]

We had this car in the UK back in the early 2000s which would make the ultimate 2027 spec car!

https://youtu.be/ekG6wbaQKlg?feature=shared

Come back Andy Burton your time is now!

[Morte66]

We had this car in the UK back in the early 2000s which would make the ultimate 2027 spec car!

https://youtu.be/ekG6wbaQKlg?feature=shared

Come back Andy Burton your time is now!

As a complete non-expert on the rules side of things, I can confirm that that was a fun car to watch.

Although I wonder how much of that is down to roadside cameras, older suspension giving some bounce, and a bit of sideways. Would a modern version be as fun?

[Sal yet again]

My post was a bit tongue in cheek and as you say for WRC level the refinement needed for such a car would probably remove some of the wow factor. Having said that it is an example of what a "tuner" might be able to produce. My only issue is that rallying has mostly been about manufacturers in the past unlike say sportscars with its number of independent chassis makers and I just wonder how many "tuners" will be able to find the budget to develop and then run cars with good drivers onboard over a worldwide season as the championship moves away from its traditional European base.

[wyler]

What is a manufacturer to you?

I made a list of 10 manufacturers of rally cars that'd be available for sale to the public (hypothetically). They'd all be manufacturers, manufacturing manufacturers' wares. You might say "but I can't buy one". Yes you could. "You don't see anybody driving them on the roads". How often do you see a Rally1/2/3/4/5 being driven?

Lancia built 100 Rally4s already? Great, why not allow low-volume car manufacturers in to that market? Why does there need to be 25,000 similar looking cars of a different construction, different fuel type, sharing little comforts and components... etc.. it doesn't make sense. It would only make sense if Lancia/Stellantis were pouring enough bucks into the FIA coffers, but it appears the manufs are all in crises.



This is a long term reset and transformation for sustainability into the next decades, not a 'how do we scrape through another season with the existing players'. The 'touring car' is dead, going rallying with a 'modified series-production touring car' is dead, and there's zero link between a rally car and 'SUV' mobility vehicle/android phone on wheels.

to me, and to most of people in the rally world, a manufacturer is a company that produces road cars.
but we can also refer to company/entity that builds their own shells, works the same, as the majority of names you did are just tuners, or company/entity that uses others' shells to prepare a race car. in the space frame era, maybe this can change, but till now, i don't see anyone other than a manu producing space frame chassis. (and that works only for rally1, minor category still refers to a legal road car as base.) so, i see the road version of every rally2/3/4/5 being driven, and also we can say that yaris gr and i20n are base model for rally1 ( the puma is a bit different...)

honestly, i don't get all the part about lancia. if u are saying that fia must change the homologation standard, i can agree. anyway, the minimum quantity for rally2 (and lesser) is 2500, not 25000, that is not that far from low volume to me. rally1, as being a space frame doesn't have a minimum quantity.

i don't get also the last part. long term reset and transformation is about the strategy and the direction of the championship, not so much about the technicalities of the car. if an existing car class can fit the strategy, then it's ok, no need to look for a revolution. and as you can see, we were very close to base this "long term reset" simply on the rally2 cars, now it looks like we will have a rally2mod or rally2+ for 2027 on, with balanced performance with the current ones.

[focus206]

Please don't suggest I want to see a buggy championship. Is a Rally1 a buggy? Is a Rally1 a touring car?

A Rally1 car is neither a buggy nor a touring car, it's a rally car. It's probably the furthest you can get to still call it a rally car, since at the very least they resemble a road car.
But I don't know what you mean by touring car, to me a touring car is a Civic TCR. A regular, road going Civic is a road car to me.



These new rules allow for bespoke designs by tuners. Do you want to call them buggies because they don't have a Toyota badge on? I'm not going near the word. You are free to call them that, I disagree. Can you tell me the 'tuners' are not manufacturers IF they offer their builds for sale? Why and how?

A Buggy is a vehicle that is not based on any road car and that doesn't even resemble any road car. You are describing buggies but you don't want to call them buggies. Some called them "protos" in cross country rallying, if you prefer.
What tuners are you talking about? Tuners like Abt Sportsline, that tune road cars and is also a motorsport team? Yes, they're tuners, not a manufacturer.
Prodrive, that developed and run Subaru in WRC and Aston Martin in GT? They are tuners... the Prodrive Hunter was also sold as road car, I don't know in how many units, so one could suggest they are a manufacturer too.
MD Rallye Sport or Century, that produce buggies for Dakar? Not tuners in my book. They are manufacturers of buggies, and not car manufacturers. If they would start selling their Optimus and CR6 as road vehicles, I could start calling them car manufacturers.



Yes there are many series-production touring car bodyshells being rallied. They are not modified touring cars - and they're practically all deprecated or on their way. How many common parts are between a C3 on the street and a Rally2?

Yes, they are based on road car bodyshells, which makes them rally cars. Modified touring cars, you mean like group N cars or what? Still plenty of them around, although I agree they will hardly be the future.

[focus206]

How about a McRae R4 of today, space frame style.

There was a project to sell road going McRae R4s, but it was canned after Colin's death. Since that didn't happen, to me a McRae R4 is a buggy/proto.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What for? There's very low R&D isn't there? Engine and running gear exists, safety cell drawings will exist soon, bodywork frame exists?

Yes but putting them all together in a coherent design with realistic car bodywork and appropriate functioning aero is a different thing altogether.

Plus there's the rule requiring them all to be ICE powered to start with when some may want to be electric or hydrogen or hybrid going forward.

Apart from Toyota, I just dont see it being possible in the timeframe and certainly not if the others want to be competitive and reliable. And none will want to go ahead with all the investment required only to have a car that's slow and look bad.

PS. If we look back to the Group B era where the cars were spaceframe and had a lot of freedom, it still took years for many Manufacturers to develop their car...

1982 Lancia 037
1983 (not s/f) Quattro, Manta, Celica, 911, R5
1984 205T16, Quattro S1
1985 Metro 6R4, Delta S4
1986 Ford RS200

[WRCStan]

to me, and to most of people in the rally world, a manufacturer is a company that produces road cars.

Rally is a road sport, and bespoke-design spaceframe build rally cars are road cars. I get your point though, I'm not going to argue you should change it, but it's not logically definitive.


but we can also refer to company/entity that builds their own shells, works the same, as the majority of names you did are just tuners, or company/entity that uses others' shells to prepare a race car.

Forget what these hypothetical example 'tuners' might have done before, think what they might do. If they are building a car from scratch and the car's legal registration papers have their name/make then they're not using another company's chassis or body.

We could also digress into body-on-chassis cars like a lot of the big American SUVs are and older cars were. And we could get into the makes that contract out the construction of shells; but if this is your belief, fine. What I'm hearing from you is "series-production manufacturer with funds and capable of churning out 10,000s cars per year for the average consumer" Fine.


honestly, i don't get all the part about lancia. if u are saying that fia must change the homologation standard, i can agree. anyway, the minimum quantity for rally2 (and lesser) is 2500, not 25000, that is not that far from low volume to me. rally1, as being a space frame doesn't have a minimum quantity.

Yes, 2500 for others; 25,000 of a model family for WRC and Rally1. For me this conversation is revolving around WRC top class so I may have conflated points; and I would think that a WRC2027 without powertrain would be largely the same up and down the pyramid. Willing to be corrected on that, but as a Fiesta body made it to every step, I think it's doable and good practice in the long term.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I just listened to the DF Stage Mode podcast with Andrea's Mikkelsen. He said that everyone he speaks to (about a drive) says they wont make 2027 because the Rules are still not out. Its already so late. He heard that maybe Toyota will be the only ones ready.

[wyler]

Rally is a road sport, and bespoke-design spaceframe build rally cars are road cars. I get your point though, I'm not going to argue you should change it, but it's not logically definitive.



Forget what these hypothetical example 'tuners' might have done before, think what they might do. If they are building a car from scratch and the car's legal registration papers have their name/make then they're not using another company's chassis or body.

We could also digress into body-on-chassis cars like a lot of the big American SUVs are and older cars were. And we could get into the makes that contract out the construction of shells; but if this is your belief, fine. What I'm hearing from you is "series-production manufacturer with funds and capable of churning out 10,000s cars per year for the average consumer" Fine.

it's really not about what me or you prefer. it's just what the motorsport governing body refers to to make the regulations. you, me or anyone else can disagree on it, still it's them that define what a manufacturer is.

and i don't like the "wht ifs..." hypotetically everyone can do everything in the future, realistically, we still don't have a clear path to '27 and no new brand officially committed (actually we are losing them from the last wrc era)

[WRCStan]

A Rally1 car is neither a buggy nor a touring car, it's a rally car.

Fully agree!


It's probably the furthest you can get to still call it a rally car, since at the very least they resemble a road car.

Disagree! Rally cars are road cars, they legally have to be.


But I don't know what you mean by touring car, to me a touring car is a Civic TCR. A regular, road going Civic is a road car to me.

Historically, a touring car was used to go touring. You take your friends and family and luggage and go somewhere nice for leisure and pleasure. It's from way back when there was no commute, no suburbs, no out of town shopping centres or weekly family shop at the supermarket, no motorways or even much tarmac. If you needed to be somewhere you took the train. Other options at the time were runabout, towncar, limousine, cab, doctor's car, etc which had different build qualities around those purposes.

~100 years ago, FIA considered three types of cars for motorsport purposes: Racing Cars, Sports cars, and Touring Cars. Rallying, being a touring road sport and not requiring speed originally, mainly used TCs but began to allow sports cars (and GTs) more in the 40s/50s/60s, and as special stage rallying took off. Then in the late 80s all cars had to be four seater touring cars in Groups A and N. Then Group R rally cars were invented but they had to be based on Group A touring cars out of a tradition and everybody pretends they've been modified, like 'there were rear seats in Rossel's C3 but we ripped them out for the rally and we will put them back' (I'm being dramatic).

At least the Rally1 regs do not even mention touring cars. They are defined as 'single example competition cars' but must have a 'series production reference car' for what it looks like. There's no evidence to say that has to be a touring car, and the Puma isn't even homologated in Group A.

This name 'touring car' dropped off in English but stayed on in French, so what used to be called The British Saloon Car Championship became the British Touring Car Championship to match FIA words in the 1980s. (Maybe they had to be Group A? Supertourers and all that?) So there's no surprise if you are an English speaker and associate Touring cars with racing, but this is a poor choice from those original 3. You're not going touring in a TCR, it's a racing car and not road legal. And if you don't call the Civic 'road car' a touring car, it's because it's a stupid name for most people's purposes, but at least you can go touring in it if you wanted to.


A Buggy is a...

Honestly, I didn't mention this and you can check. I don't need an explanation. I'm describing WRC2027 rules as I understand them and Rally1 because they're the spaceframe example. In construction terms, there's no difference between Rally1 and WRC2027. We've difference in opinion of what a road car is and if you choose to call them buggies, feel free.

So back to discussion, Rally1 being visually based on 'series production cars' but there's no 'series production car manufacturers' interested in WRC. The rules are being changed to allow bespoke rally designs and for 'tuners' to build chasses; I've no idea what they mean by Tuners, because I cannot see what they are 'tuning' as like you suggest a 'tuner' would 'tune' something already existing. I agree with that definition. If you can tell me why I am in the wrong for thinking a small cheese can build a WRC2027 car, I'd be grateful.

[WRCStan]

I just listened to the DF Stage Mode podcast with Andrea's Mikkelsen. He said that everyone he speaks to (about a drive) says they wont make 2027 because the Rules are still not out. Its already so late. He heard that maybe Toyota will be the only ones ready.

I'm willing to agree with this.

[WRCStan]

it's really not about what me or you prefer. it's just what the motorsport governing body refers to to make the regulations. you, me or anyone else can disagree on it, still it's them that define what a manufacturer is.

and i don't like the "wht ifs..." hypotetically everyone can do everything in the future, realistically, we still don't have a clear path to '27 and no new brand officially committed (actually we are losing them from the last wrc era)

I'm here to discuss what is planned. I'm long past hearing people's opinions on what they should be doing believe me. Yes there's a lot of unknowns but like I said to Focus, if you can tell me where I'm wrong about my interpretation of what's planned then I'm not wasting my time coming here.

[giu canbera]

I just listened to the DF Stage Mode podcast with Andrea's Mikkelsen. He said that everyone he speaks to (about a drive) says they wont make 2027 because the Rules are still not out. Its already so late. He heard that maybe Toyota will be the only ones ready.

I can bet on this:
January 2027 P.R.:
"Can the new Toyotas WRC27 beat the +40 R5s in every event?"

Fans after Monte Carlo:
"FIA killed the sport! They should DEMAND Toyota to run only R5s, otherwise this is just like those crappy years in WEC where they ran alone on the front. What a joke"

[wyler]

I'm here to discuss what is planned. I'm long past hearing people's opinions on what they should be doing believe me. Yes there's a lot of unknowns but like I said to Focus, if you can tell me where I'm wrong about my interpretation of what's planned then I'm not wasting my time coming here.

everybody is here to discuss the news, and free to do so!

i can't tell if your vision is wrong or not, i can tell what i see, the same way you do.

and what i see is that, to me, is totally unrealistic to think than any small cheese can build a wrc27. or better: it's true. anyone can do it, but almost no one could then run it in the wrc championship, nor would sustain the production rhytm to make selling those cars profitable or even sustainable. there's too much money needed to logistics, even without thinking about test and development to challenge the resource of toyota. and just being there is not enough, cause few people will buy them a car that can't compete. is momething that we already seen with m-sport, and we can also not consider rally1 in it. they are a good tuner example in the rally2 market... they can compete in the fisrst times, being the first in the market (think fiesta r5) but then they faded against giants like skoda, toyota. and they are big "tuner", a company that employs hundreds of people.

i just think this solution is a bit too simplistic/optimistic. sure thing, making building cars accessible is a good thing, but to me, the problems arise in running it a full season(s) and building hundreds quickly to make it profitable. i think that are the topics that are slowing down things for '27. as for wrc+ and rally1: the point was not building the cars, but run it...

[focus206]

Historically, a touring car was used to go touring. You take your friends and family and luggage and go somewhere nice for leisure and pleasure. It's from way back when there was no commute, no suburbs, no out of town shopping centres or weekly family shop at the supermarket, no motorways or even much tarmac. If you needed to be somewhere you took the train. Other options at the time were runabout, towncar, limousine, cab, doctor's car, etc which had different build qualities around those purposes.

~100 years ago, FIA considered three types of cars for motorsport purposes: Racing Cars, Sports cars, and Touring Cars. Rallying, being a touring road sport and not requiring speed originally, mainly used TCs but began to allow sports cars (and GTs) more in the 40s/50s/60s, and as special stage rallying took off. Then in the late 80s all cars had to be four seater touring cars in Groups A and N. Then Group R rally cars were invented but they had to be based on Group A touring cars out of a tradition and everybody pretends they've been modified, like 'there were rear seats in Rossel's C3 but we ripped them out for the rally and we will put them back' (I'm being dramatic).

At least the Rally1 regs do not even mention touring cars. They are defined as 'single example competition cars' but must have a 'series production reference car' for what it looks like. There's no evidence to say that has to be a touring car, and the Puma isn't even homologated in Group A.

This name 'touring car' dropped off in English but stayed on in French, so what used to be called The British Saloon Car Championship became the British Touring Car Championship to match FIA words in the 1980s. (Maybe they had to be Group A? Supertourers and all that?) So there's no surprise if you are an English speaker and associate Touring cars with racing, but this is a poor choice from those original 3. You're not going touring in a TCR, it's a racing car and not road legal. And if you don't call the Civic 'road car' a touring car, it's because it's a stupid name for most people's purposes, but at least you can go touring in it if you wanted to.

I'm aware of the historical definition, I just didn't think anyone would still use it today. Last time I saw (on ewrc-results) a rally dividing cars into touring and great touring classes, it was probably from the 60's. So a touring car is a regular road legal car, like almost all vehicles we see on the road? Pretty sure in many other languages if you say touring car, it means exclusively a race car such as TCR nowdays.



Honestly, I didn't mention this and you can check. I don't need an explanation. I'm describing WRC2027 rules as I understand them and Rally1 because they're the spaceframe example. In construction terms, there's no difference between Rally1 and WRC2027. We've difference in opinion of what a road car is and if you choose to call them buggies, feel free.

So back to discussion, Rally1 being visually based on 'series production cars' but there's no 'series production car manufacturers' interested in WRC. The rules are being changed to allow bespoke rally designs and for 'tuners' to build chasses; I've no idea what they mean by Tuners, because I cannot see what they are 'tuning' as like you suggest a 'tuner' would 'tune' something already existing. I agree with that definition. If you can tell me why I am in the wrong for thinking a small cheese can build a WRC2027 car, I'd be grateful.

You didn't mention them, you described them, if you meant in 2027+ rally championship should allow vehicles that aren't road legal and don't resemble road/touring cars. And that goes beyond the official manufacturer vs tuner difference. Audi had a buggy for Dakar, if they entered it without making a road version, it would still be a buggy to me.

I don't think you're wrong for thinking that tuners or non official manufacturers can build a rally car. I think you're wrong in considering something like a McRae R4, which is not a road car and never had any type of production except for cross country rally costumers, a rally car that should be allowed to take part in rally championships. To me, that could bring in the future companies like let's say Red Bull, making their own purpose-made vehicle exclusively to tackle WRC, which is a sight I hope I'll never see.
If, in theory, we get things like AP4 or the Swedish Mirage R5, I'd be happy to welcome them. In practice, I doubt it's so simple.

[WRCStan]

So a touring car is a regular road legal car, like almost all vehicles we see on the road?

Not for me. It's the FIA's definition for Group A and N. Group B was for GTs but also included sports specials it allowed the beasts that got banned and so WRC manufacturers championship never saw a GT or sportscar again because they're still stuck on those Groups' rules written in the 70s.

Which is a good time to also mention from before Groups N, A and B; Lancia's space frame Stratos rally special, Alpine's backbone chassis, fibre body, A110 sportscar. Two seater Porsche 911s. Apparently not the DNA of rallying?


You didn't mention them, you described them, if you meant in 2027+ rally championship should allow vehicles that aren't road legal and don't resemble road/touring cars.

I really didn't, try quoting me! Anybody can build a road legal car to their own design at home, though as those 70s examples above and Group B (037, RS200) show is in spirit, I would love to step away from having to resemble 'touring cars' even if they had to be series-produced. If you think the R4 is a buggy, what do you think of those?


in the future companies like let's say Red Bull, making their own purpose-made vehicle exclusively to tackle WRC, which is a sight I hope I'll never see.
You'll still watch it �� and it's probably what they want to achieve.

[Steve Boyd]

The Alfa-Ferrari Andy Burton built before the Peugeot Cosworth was pretty spectacular also!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2rROTHn5y0

[focus206]

I really didn't, try quoting me! Anybody can build a road legal car to their own design at home, though as those 70s examples above and Group B (037, RS200) show is in spirit, I would love to step away from having to resemble 'touring cars' even if they had to be series-produced. If you think the R4 is a buggy, what do you think of those?

You wrote:
"But crucially for me, those types of consumer-series car names are not the future, there's no link anymore so why restrict it to them?"
"I made a list of 10 manufacturers of rally cars that'd be available for sale to the public (hypothetically). They'd all be manufacturers, manufacturing manufacturers' wares. You might say "but I can't buy one". Yes you could. "You don't see anybody driving them on the roads". How often do you see a Rally1/2/3/4/5 being driven?"

to which I asked you what you meant and if you could give me an example. You answered:
"How about a McRae R4 of today, space frame style."

Which is a buggy to me. The RS200 and the 037 are not buggies to me, they were sold to the (not so) general public as road cars. I don't find relevant if they fall into the touring or grand touring or whatever category.



You'll still watch it �� and it's probably what they want to achieve.

I wouldn't, and I think many fans would get sick pretty soon if there's a championship filled with buggies or protos or fantasy purpose-built cars. I think some fans prefer cars over show, others prefer show over cars.
Growing up, my rally fan classmates and friends loved cars and loved rallying because rally cars were based on road cars (group N, or the huge amount of small FWD French cars, etc) or at least there was a resemblance with the bodyshell like in WRC, racing on everyday town and country roads. Rally cars were not like single seaters, bunch of almost identical looking rockets on 4 wheels with different liveries. Of course, rallying is a great sport to spectate, so show mattered as well.
But to choose show over rally cars, no. You could guarantee to me that if we put Ogier, Neuville and Tanak on dirt bikes, we'd get a super exciting championship with lots of show, I still wouldn't care, I'm not enough of a motorbike fan. I'd rather see them drive Peugeot 106 N2 than a Red Bull buggy, and I'm positive many fans who like cars over show would also be disappointed to have many McRae R4-like cars in the championship. I watch them when I follow Dakar. Hopefully there's something inbetween.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I remember the McRae R4 from an old rally game (DiRT 3) and never bothering to use it. It wasnt a 'proper car' nor had it been used in rallies by the drivers I admired.

If they went down this route I feel many would feel the same way. Plus if the existing star drivers didnt stay or retired this would also kill the viewership.

Rally cars have to have a road car connection, however vague, or it's just not a rally car.

[WRCStan]

For me Buggies are either for pushing young children in and built by Maclaren; or they're a bit bigger for a few adults, powered, and found on the beaches of 1960's California, the moon or a golf course. These usually have no/low sides, no windscreen/windows or rooves, have a high centre of gravity and do not make suitable or safe road-rally cars at all.

I'm not saying WRC2027 cars shouldn't have rules and be a free-for-all designs; the bodywork reference volumes were already decided and they could have been based on production road safety guidelines by prominent bodies. They must be fully closed with windscreens etc. There's your road car connection no? It's an idea that'll rule out the Audi buggy, moon buggy and the sofa. And probably the R4 is too small.

McRae had a plan to build a road legal car useful for various motorsport disciplines and for sale to the public. The only difference between this (being done now) and the Stratos, 037, RS200 is that he wouldn't have had to build a minimum number, and as stories go, neither did Lancia or Ford anyway so they're exactly the same car type. His was the most hideous looking car I've ever seen, but if Loeb turns up to Monte 27 in it, I'm watching.

If instead of WRC you want to see a rally series which has scores of production road car makes involved, with true 2027 road relevance; check out this series (https://www.fia.com/events/bridgestone-fia-ecorally-cup/season-2025/bridgestone-fia-eco-rally-cup).

[focus206]

For me Buggies are either for pushing young children in and built by Maclaren; or they're a bit bigger for a few adults, powered, and found on the beaches of 1960's California, the moon or a golf course. These usually have no/low sides, no windscreen/windows or rooves, have a high centre of gravity and do not make suitable or safe road-rally cars at all.

Those are dune buggies. In Dakar and cross country rallies, these are called buggies (by everyone, not just by me):
https://joseluismonterde.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/monterde_01.jpg
As you can see, they're closed and have windscreens, but they're still called buggies by everyone.



McRae had a plan to build a road legal car useful for various motorsport disciplines and for sale to the public. The only difference between this (being done now) and the Stratos, 037, RS200 is that he wouldn't have had to build a minimum number, and as stories go, neither did Lancia or Ford anyway so they're exactly the same car type. His was the most hideous looking car I've ever seen, but if Loeb turns up to Monte 27 in it, I'm watching.

The difference is that there were 0 McRae R4s as road cars for the public. Few is better than 0, and to me 0 road cars for the public automatically disqualifies a veichle to be considered for a rally championship.



If instead of WRC you want to see a rally series which has scores of production road car makes involved, with true 2027 road relevance; check out this series (https://www.fia.com/events/bridgestone-fia-ecorally-cup/season-2025/bridgestone-fia-eco-rally-cup).

That's a regularity rally championship that doesn't involve rally cars, different discipline. One could suggest that if you want to see buggies (or however you'd like to call them) in WRC, why not just create a new motorsport discipline? You can call it WBC, so one can go watch that and leave the RALLY championships alone, since I would imagine that to run a rally championship you'd need rally cars.

[wyler]

Actually there are at least 2 disciplines to see any kind of prototype racing: hillclimb and gymkana/slalom. why turn rally into it?

[RS]

So it seems that the ‘tuners’ will really just be bodywork manufacturers:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-we-know-about-wrc-2027-so-far/

There are some points I like about these regulations; a return to production based engines (so they are at least more of a proper rally car than Rally1) & less silly aero bits/downforce.

I’m not sure of the wisdom of also having these cars as the main class for regional and national championships too as it will push costs up there and remove the ‘pyramid’

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I can see the old R5 & Rally2 Cars going on and on for years, dropping down the rally levels like the Subaru's and Evo's before them. These will be the lower pyramid cars, although still too expensive for many. Plus Rally3 cars will also be around as they're pretty new.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I see the picture used is now also credited to M-Sport too, not just FIA. Maybe its how the WRC27 Puma could look & a hopeful sign that they are on board & may have it ready in time ?

https://dirtfish-editorial.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/2025/08/2025.08.20.WRC27Mockup-700x700.jpg

[pedro16]

"A tuner will have to align with a single manufacturer running a currently homologated car – and don’t forget the manufacturers are obligated to sell their parts."

This should calm down the road connection is dead talks.

[wyler]

i don't get why a tuner would develop a bodywork of his own instead of buying the complete car...
to sell their own car, is it so profitable to sell the bodywork, even under the cost cap?

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-we-know-about-wrc-2027-so-far/

Some more information regarding the matter.

[RS]

i don't get why a tuner would develop a bodywork of his own instead of buying the complete car...
to sell their own car, is it so profitable to sell the bodywork, even under the cost cap?

I suppose the idea is to make it like F1 where a private team can buy the powertrain from a manufacturer but designs the chassis/aero themselves. It will be somewhat more limited in WRC though where the chassis is spec andbthe aero is limited.

[wyler]

I suppose the idea is to make it like F1 where a private team can buy the powertrain from a manufacturer but designs the chassis/aero themselves. It will be somewhat more limited in WRC though where the chassis is spec andbthe aero is limited.

chassis is "provided" by fia, aero is limited, it's really just about bodywork, but i hope will be enough to lure some people in...
(f1 has rewards in money that wrc has not...)

[WRCStan]

"A tuner will have to align with a single manufacturer running a currently homologated car – and don’t forget the manufacturers are obligated to sell their parts."

This should calm down the road connection is dead talks.

Probably not, a bespoke design WRC27 with a Rally2 engine has 1% in common with a production road car. You could have 20 Toyotas in a rally but with * different body shapes.

I'm grateful for the update and more info though, thank you to everybody involved.

[WRCStan]

chassis is "provided" by fia

The design will be, if they built it themselves every car would legally be manufactured by FIA. They might do this but highly unlikely. I'd guess the manufacturers will provide a rolling-chassis as in the drawing here (https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/neues-reglement-rohrrahmen-und-rally2-technik-54001/) (drawing without powertrain though).


i don't get why a tuner would develop a bodywork of his own instead of buying the complete car...
to sell their own car, is it so profitable to sell the bodywork, even under the cost cap?

I'd also guess a new teams championship goes next to a manufacturers championship like Formula E. Might not even have a complete car available from a manuf who's not entering anything.

[WRCStan]

That's a regularity rally championship that doesn't involve rally cars, different discipline.
Clownish statement. Didn't you want road relevance? That is 100% rally with 100% road relevance as they are driving 100% production road cars 100% within the confines of traffic law. (Supposedly).


As you can see, they're closed and have windscreens, but they're still called buggies by everyone.

Sure, I won't argue with you that because their origin is in the buggies I mentioned via SCORE where they still don't have windscreens and sides and put in the same class as the Audis and Raptors by FIA.


One could suggest that if you want to see buggies (or however you'd like to call them) in WRC, why not just create a new motorsport discipline? You can call it WBC, so one can go watch that and leave the RALLY championships alone, since I would imagine that to run a rally championship you'd need rally cars.

Why not just look to WR2C, rally-raids or Bajas where buggies go rallying? That makes them rally cars! Like a Hyundai Ioniq 5 is a rally car if it goes eco-Rallying!

For the last time, I don't want to see buggies or prototype rally raid cars in WRC. As we've had confirmation now that, according to your definitions, you're going to be seeing BUGGIES in WRC in 2027, and you're making clownish statements, lets move on.

[focus206]

Clownish statement. Didn't you want road relevance? That is 100% rally with 100% road relevance as they are driving 100% production road cars 100% within the confines of traffic law. (Supposedly).

Huh? It's literally a regularity rally with road cars, not a speed rally. Their special stages are about energy consuption and average speed, so it's not a 100% speed rally not matter how you try to spin it.



Why not just look to WR2C, rally-raids or Bajas where buggies go rallying? That makes them rally cars! Like a Hyundai Ioniq 5 is a rally car if it goes eco-Rallying!

For the last time, I don't want to see buggies or prototype rally raid cars in WRC. As we've had confirmation now that, according to your definitions, you're going to be seeing BUGGIES in WRC in 2027, and you're making clownish statements, lets move on.

Sure, as I said I watch buggies when I follow Dakar.
No, buggies in rally-raid are rally-raid vehicles, not rally cars. No, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 that goes eco-rallying is not a rally car.
Your last sentence makes zero sense, maybe you didn't use enough rhetorical questions that you like to use so much. Go tell rally fans that the stock road cars they use in the EcoRally Cup are actual rally cars. See them laughing in your face as if they just spoke with a clown.

[WRCStan]

No, buggies in rally-raid are rally-raid vehicles, not rally cars.

The Audi you said is a buggy is still a car. Check the regs it's built to.


No, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 that goes eco-rallying is not a rally car.

No simpler definition for 'rally car' then a car that goes rallying. This one is in one of the cups classes and published on the admitted list, and the WLTP surrounding the cup is also published. Check the regs.


Huh? It's literally a regularity rally with road cars, not a speed rally. Their special stages are about energy consuption and average speed, so it's not a 100% speed rally not matter how you try to spin it.

For sure I wasn't confused that ecoRally was a speed rally and never said that it was.

[focus206]

The Audi you said is a buggy is still a car. Check the regs it's built to.

It's not based on an available road car, it's not on sale as a road car and cannot be eligible for rally championships. You can call it a car as a broad term. Rest of the world doesn't seem to have a problem to call it a buggy. No, I won't check the regs.



No simpler definition for 'rally car' then a car that goes rallying. This one is in one of the cups classes and published on the admitted list, and the WLTP surrounding the cup is also published. Check the regs.

Absolutely not, it's a different discipline. The Eco Rally Cup was once called Cup for Alternative Energies Vehicles... so according to this logic they weren't rally cars back then, but now they are. Some of its events don't even include the word "Rally" in it. No amount of mental gymnastic you can do can make them rally cars. No, I won't check the regs.
Next you'll tell me that the car that brings a politician to a political rally is a rally car, because there's "rally" in the name.



For sure I wasn't confused that ecoRally was a speed rally and never said that it was.

Never said this, never said that, as usual. Yet you said it's a 100% a rally, as if a regularity rally and a speed rally are the same discipline.
It seems it hasn't dawned on you that this is an international forum. You speak vague and in roundabouts, you use slang, write rhetorical questions. More than once other users have written "I don't know what you mean". Disrespectful, but I'm not surprised about that.

[Steve Boyd]

I can see the old R5 & Rally2 Cars going on and on for years, dropping down the rally levels like the Subaru's and Evo's before them.I think you actually mean that old R5 & Rally2 cars will disappear from the higher levels over the next few years. There are already people using Rally2 cars on local single-venue club events - there's nowhere lower for them to go!

[saco0o]

"The WRC27 cars and current Rally2 machinery will run in the same class, with both cars chasing overall rally wins and the overall world championship title."

that was my biggest doubt. im 10000000000000000% happy if we have only R5s for 2027 or so.

[Maui J.]

Seems like these regulations are still somewhat vague as we still haven't heard any firm confirmation about anyone making a WRC27 car, with the championship less than 18 months away. Normally we hear at least rumours about new entrants years in advance before they actually hit the stages. For those who have been here for awhile, do we all remember the 'village idiots' coming with that new car!!! I wonder how those village idiots are doing now? Oh, that's right, they are winning everything. Anyway, back on topic...

My main concern is will the compulsory 10 cars put tuners off? Totally fine for Toyota or even M-Sport, and I can see where the FIA is going with this, but for a small tuner this is a massive investment without necessarily being about to sell them to customer drivers.

I do think the FIA is doing the right thing by easing the homologation rules and inviting tuners into the mix. Hopefully we will see a new era of WRC as we are seeing a new era in WEC. Teams such as Glinkenhaus, Vanwell and Isotta Fraschini could almost be interpreted as tuners. They were there (unfortunately all withdrawn now) mixing with the established manufacturers like Toyota, Porsche, Ferrari, Peugeot etc in endurance racing which was great to see, but they didn't have to make 10 compulsory cars. Is this going to be the thorn in the side of these new regulations?

[Eli]

Seems like these regulations are still somewhat vague as we still haven't heard any firm confirmation about anyone making a WRC27 car, with the championship less than 18 months away. Normally we hear at least rumours about new entrants years in advance before they actually hit the stages. For those who have been here for awhile, do we all remember the 'village idiots' coming with that new car!!! I wonder how those village idiots are doing now? Oh, that's right, they are winning everything. Anyway, back on topic...

My main concern is will the compulsory 10 cars put tuners off? Totally fine for Toyota or even M-Sport, and I can see where the FIA is going with this, but for a small tuner this is a massive investment without necessarily being about to sell them to customer drivers.

I do think the FIA is doing the right thing by easing the homologation rules and inviting tuners into the mix. Hopefully we will see a new era of WRC as we are seeing a new era in WEC. Teams such as Glinkenhaus, Vanwell and Isotta Fraschini could almost be interpreted as tuners. They were there (unfortunately all withdrawn now) mixing with the established manufacturers like Toyota, Porsche, Ferrari, Peugeot etc in endurance racing which was great to see, but they didn't have to make 10 compulsory cars. Is this going to be the thorn in the side of these new regulations?

I just think that 10 years ago (wow I can't believe it's been 10) Toyota announced that they would join the WRC in 2017 for the new regulations and there was already speculation Kris Meeke would join them...now, it's August 2025 and no manufacturer even from the existing ones can say they'll be there for sure until 2029....yes for sure Covid didn't help, but you'd think that in 10 years...someone would say they're joining, I honestly hope these regulations help or the WRC will die out before the next 10 years.

[RS]

In order to homologate one of these cars do manufacturers have to be comitted to entering a full WRC campaign?

If so there's two ways that could go.. either we get more manufacturers competing at the top, or we get fewer manufacturers building rally cars overall (when you consider Rally2)

[flat_right]

Seems like these regulations are still somewhat vague as we still haven't heard any firm confirmation about anyone making a WRC27 car, with the championship less than 18 months away. Normally we hear at least rumours about new entrants years in advance before they actually hit the stages. For those who have been here for awhile, do we all remember the 'village idiots' coming with that new car!!! I wonder how those village idiots are doing now? Oh, that's right, they are winning everything. Anyway, back on topic...


By "firm confirmation" do you mean new entrants? Because from the "old dogs", Toyota has said/hinted publicly that they are building a car and during Rally Estonia, I spoke with one Toyota member and he confirmed they are definitely building a new car already. When I asked about others, the said that Ford maybe but with Hyundai he said that he doesn't know as I think even in Hyundai no one knows.

https://www.rallit.fi/toyota-pomolta-kova-lausunto-tulevasta-tasta-syysta-talli-on-kestanyt-huipulla-niin-kauan/

"But in general, you can say that it takes about a year to design a car and it takes another year to test it. The rules have been available for six months, so you can tell from it where we are at, Fowler agrees to reveal."

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The timescale is just too tight as I said before and Mikkelsen confirmed he has been told by everyone but Toyota.

It looks like the best we can hope for is Toyota WRC27 Cars vs the existing Rally2 Cars.

But how will they feel if their customers in their old Yaris Rally2 car beats them ?!

[trykmann]

But how will they feel if their customers in their old Yaris Rally2 car beats them ?!

There is nothing a small software update wouldn't fix :p

[pedro16]

My main concern is will the compulsory 10 cars put tuners off? Totally fine for Toyota or even M-Sport, and I can see where the FIA is going with this, but for a small tuner this is a massive investment without necessarily being about to sell them to customer drivers.


Supposedly they have the whole season to do it.
And imagining it's a 3 car team, with only the team cars the numbers would be already close. 3+3 because of logistics with overseas rounds and 1 or 2 test cars.

[saco0o]

i think we are all missing an important point here: fia spent MONTHS in negotiation with several stakeholders trying to decide the 'best way to go' and the final veredict was that 'something like the R5s' would be the way to go. especially due to its incredible sucessful formula.
PLUS (since wrc27 will be "at the same level" in terms of general power), they could count on all the two thousand R5s out there to compete already in monte carlo 2027. they probably never counted on 'having new participants flooding in for 2027 and 2028 with new machines.
sure, we all hope we would have them (i mean... MONTHS spent on negotiations for just toyota to show up with the new car??? wtf??), but the general plan was probably a move to the sucessful R5 formula.
that way all the racers complaining they cant compete in WRC because of the cost and all fans complaining that "only 8 cars in just boring" would both cease.

does this thought makes sense?