Ogier thread

[Mintexmemory]

He's always said the opposite officially though

Well he would, wouldn't he! If he stated that was his ambition a) he sets himself up for accusations of egoism and b) failure to achieve it would diminish his career achievements.

[cmac]

Well for me if he goes on to win the championship this year, 5 titles with two different manufactures equals if not betters Loebs 9 for me.

[electroliquid]

Also very important against whom win titles...

[seb_sh]

I think I said this a couple of times before, but I think Ogier's fight is against Loeb and his records. That is the highest bar that he can set, sure publicly he was always praising Loeb's performances but I think in his mind it is like a target. I don't think this is wrong especially when for years you have no true rival. And if you understand this you can also understand why he was upset when he was coming 2nd and 3rd due to road rules even with a huge lead in the drivers championship. Not saying it was ok to whine but in his mind he is racing against Loeb's number of victories and titles.

About the different manufacturer I also think that would be something in Ogier's favour, it's perhaps the one footnote on Loeb's record: he never won with a different team.

[Andre Oliveira]

10 reasons to think that Ogier is better than Loeb and obviously better than all others of same era:

-> Beat Loeb with same weapons
-> Had the corauge to leave all powerfull Citröen to join unknown VW
-> Go down to S2000, but still shinning
-> VW Polo R WRC developed around him was so good or better than Citröen by Loeb
-> Tottaly dominance of WRC since beggining of VW era
-> Didn't need splits plays (eg: final stage decelaration to play with start order of next day)
-> Didn't need help of team mates (eg: intentional decelaration to let him pass in classification)
-> Still winning with start order rule made to prejudice him (indisputable argument)
-> Leave best team, to less good team with less arguments and with car not developed by him
-> With smart drive, lead the championship, being the only top driver without retirement or rally2 rule

So, for me, Ogier (like or not) is not the best rally driver of last years, he is one of the all time best.

[Rally Power]

Wow, you’re a true Ogier supporter, André! Obviously you’re also aware that Loeb fans can reverse almost all those arguments and add some few others, by saying: ‘Loeb beat Ogier with same weapons’, ‘Loeb didn’t leave a French Manu to serve a German Manu’ (that one really pissed off the Frenchie…), ‘Loeb start shinning by winning S1600 JWRC’, ‘Loeb developed 3 different cars and dominated with all of them’, ‘Loeb beat two team mates that were former WRC champs’, ‘Loeb sacrifice his first WRC title to help Citroen win a manu title’, etc, etc.

Still, no one can contest your last sentence:

Ogier (…) is not the best rally driver of last years, he is one of the all time best.

Amen.

[focus206]

10 reasons to think that Ogier is better than Loeb and obviously better than all others of same era:

To me what you listed sounds more like "10 reasons why Ogier is a great rally driver" rather than "better than Loeb", this is my opinion:

-> Beat Loeb with same weapons

He did, in some rallies, but also Hirvonen beat Loeb in some rallies, yet he was far from being Loeb. Scrapping 2009 and 2010, in which Ogier was still a WRC rookie so obviously slower than Loeb, in 2011 they fought for the title and Loeb won, that's the only championship battle they did.

-> Had the corauge to leave all powerfull Citröen to join unknown VW

Ok, nothing to say here, but he wasn't having an easy life with Citroen team, so I wouldn't give all the reasons why he left Citroen to "courage".

-> Go down to S2000, but still shinning

I don't see the relation with Loeb in this one? It's true, but you would expect every fast WRC driver to shine in a lesser category.

-> VW Polo R WRC developed around him was so good or better than Citröen by Loeb

Difficult to say how much VW was dominant for their merit or for the opponents' demerit, but I agree that there was a bigger gap between VW vs opponents in Ogier era compared to Citroen vs opponents in Loeb era. This could mean though that Loeb won so much while driving a car that wasn't so strong against its opponents compared to Ogier/VW and their opponents.

-> Tottaly dominance of WRC since beggining of VW era

True, but also Loeb dominated since his 3rd year in the WRC, and in my opinion, with less dominance but against a stronger opposition, and with a car which was fast, but not as fast as the Polo.

-> Didn't need splits plays (eg: final stage decelaration to play with start order of next day)

I don't see this having a big value, they were different rules years ago, it's not like Ogier refused to "play the game" and won anyway, or am I forgetting something?

-> Didn't need help of team mates (eg: intentional decelaration to let him pass in classification)

This one is true, I can recall only twice when Loeb needed his teammates, but it's true nonetheless.

-> Still winning with start order rule made to prejudice him (indisputable argument)

True that he won rallies with a big disadvantage in the starting order, then again, different rules, Loeb never tried this.

-> Leave best team, to less good team with less arguments and with car not developed by him

I disagree that this is something to list, as Ogier went to M-Sport only because VW left. He already had a contract with them, the best WRC team with which Ogier won 4 titles. I don't see him being different from Loeb from "not leaving the best team". Ogier did, but didn't have a choice.

-> With smart drive, lead the championship, being the only top driver without retirement or rally2 rule

Ogier is being impressive for that reason in this season. In fact, he's the favourite to win the championship, it will be hard for Neuville to finish all remaining rallies without DNFs. But again, I don't see what does this have to do with Loeb? Also Loeb was very consistent, and Ogier is not running against him right now.

So, for me, Ogier (like or not) is not the best rally driver of last years, he is one of the all time best.

Ogier is without a doubt one of the best rally drivers ever. In my opinion he's the second best so far, after Loeb But after all, these are mostly personal opinions. Shame they didn't run in the same era, we would have had more exciting battles instead of seasons totally dominated.

[RAS007]

Well for me if he goes on to win the championship this year, 5 titles with two different manufactures equals if not betters Loebs 9 for me.

Agreed; for similar reasons, for me personally, Kankkunen is still the greatest due to his 4 titles with 3 different manufacturers.

[sollitt]

Well for me if he goes on to win the championship this year, 5 titles with two different manufactures equals if not betters Loebs 9 for me.

So winning 5 titles with two silver spoons trumps winning 9 titles with just one?

[tomhlord]

So winning 5 titles with two silver spoons trumps winning 9 titles with just one?

He hasn't won 5 titles.