We're allowed to make a fuss, we're not famous stars ;) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
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We're allowed to make a fuss, we're not famous stars ;) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Ah ok, Lewis you idiot calm down and spend your cash!
:laugh: Good idea :D
Lewis has had some bad luck this season, but he's also been his own worst enemy for a few seasons now. He needs to focus again if he wants this championship.
Sadly this is the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
He is just always involved. Which is a problem
we all would like to see fair racingQuote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
but it seems one driver is bent on being unfair...namely Nico
so to me it is laughable that after monaco people say "it is what it is, stop whining Hamilton" let it happen on the track
knowing full well that monaco is impossible to pass with equal machinery. and anything short of a suicide divebomb ( like spa oddly enough) would be ridiculous to both team and driver
that was an "on track situation"
Same with spa, after he destroys his teammate's race, who btw was leading the race at that moment, and his closest WDC rival, on an on track stupid move that was cynical at best and probably deliberate at worst, folks like you are now saying " i wish hamilton would shut up and just race ,and have it decided on the track"
Well that is what he bloody well is trying to do, isn't it???
Nico knows he is no match for Hamilton in a fair fight and thus has resorted to these tactics
nevermind that he has benefitted from some horrendous luck on the part of Hamilton's car, and despite all that was just 11 points ahead.
If his car did not break down d in Australia, it would have been 5/5 for hamilton, and lets remember that monaco incident happened right after Hamilton won 4 in a row and was looking good for pole in Monaco and Nico did what he did to stop that momentum.
Now in Spa, hamilton beat him off the line in the start and Nico did what he did to stop him. I'm not sure what point he was trying to prove. Because the hungarian GP situation was ridiculous at all levels and the team acknowledged that afterwards. Being slower than his teammate and championship rival, not being able to be close enough to make a pass then whining and asking the team to have him pass him was just dumb. So if he was angry about that situation then he must be nuts that his championship rival won't slow down and let him pass so he can win the race and put him further ahead in points.
To me it seems like there is one driver trying to win his races and perform fairly and there is another guy who has a complete sense of undeserved entitlement (Nico) who is trying to win the championship unfairly.
I have stayed quiet over the pas few days just to observe and see where this conversation would go in these forums, and like a few others, tend to agree that the dislike for Hamilton, for whatever reason, seems to cloud many here in their opinion. Because I shudder to think about the vitriol and record breaking thread counts that would have happened crucifying hamilton if the situation were in reverse.
All you have to see is how folks responded in 2011 when he got into several racing incidents with massa and webber. Most poignantly how many were quick to blame him for all contacts with massa, and then defended webber in singapore despite turning into hamilton.
So lets see if monza can be a "fair race" and see what happens. With 8 races to go it will be tough, but I still think hamilton can do it.
But TBH i have absolutely no faith in Rosberg driving fair or not doing something else stupid that folks here will be quick to defend.
It's hard to argue anything that Truefan72 had to say.
To me, it's pretty open and shut that you point the car the way you want it to go. I would not think the best way to approach the next corner, which was a left, would be to crank in full right lock. That is, unless your intention was to go to the right, which is where Hamilton was.
I have always admired the way Vettel won fair and never resorted to chopping, blocking or swerving. That's why it never bothered me that he was dominating. Right now he looks pretty ordinary, but of all of them, he would be the one I would worry about the least when going wheel to wheel. I have never seen him do anything unfair
Over the years I've seen Nico swerve the full width of the straight to block an opponent, so I am not surprised that he finally did something like this. Disappointed, certainly, but not surprised. Senna and then Schumacher drove like that for so long that it's become acceptable.
So now, because of Senna and Schumacher, we have a new generation of drivers who seem to think that anything you can get away with is ok, even if it is potentially deadly.
I can't pretend to know what Nico was thinking, but I also can't imagine where else he thought the car was going to go when he cranked the wheel over toward his teammate. There is no possible excuse for him to have done that. Even if he might contend he was trying to slot in behind, I can't believe a guy who is leading the world championship could misjudge a move on his own teammate/"friend" that damm badly.
Again, the best part of the story could have been the two friends having a sporting duel for the championship. Now it seems we are going to have a friendship ruined and a dirty championship. This is the legacy Senna and Schumacher have left for them.
Isn't that ultimately what sport is actually for?Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
No we will not shut up and get on with it too. We will fight every argument beyond the point of stupidity. :D
Sport is basically the same as watching Neighbours, Game of Thrones, Fargo... the difference is that we can choose who our goodies and baddies are. Sport is the telling of stories, over and over again.
I think that Lewis is a bit of a whinger. The interest for me is what he does with his whinge.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
He may've kept his nose a split second longer than ideal, but it was not stupid, cynical or deliberate. If it was deliberate, it would not have been such faint contact. True fans of motorsport/F1 would be more annoyed that such a minor incident had significant consequences. But it's been made clear that you are not one of them. You are indeed a true fan of HamiltonQuote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
You are embarrassing yourself amongst true fans of motorsport/F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
It's not Nico's fault, Hamilton doesn't have the talent, the composure to handle a deteriorating car, like what Rosberg did at Canada. After all, they both had the same problem occur at the same time!Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Or did you mean at Hungary. Where Hamilton's problems in qualifying actually benefitted him in the race. Rosberg was on his way to a win, before the unexpected, early safety car caught him out, and Hamilton took advantage of it.
Or did you mean at Silverstone. Where Rosberg stuffed up on his own in qualifying, ending up on the third row. He clawed his way to second in the race. Hamilton had been leading all the way and would've won, til halfway when his car broke down and Rosberg inherited the win. Silverstone is the only race this year, where the driver leading had a mechanical problem that took him out of the race.
Rosberg was leading. Hamilton retired early. You don't know what would've happen. You are just making **** up, you true fan of theatre/HamiltonQuote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
You wrote too much nonsense for me to bother with the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Please! Somebody call the Waaaaaambulance now!
Fairly easy, tbh. Rationality is not a strong suit of his. Well it's actually a bit hard. He talks so much...Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
Did you know?
Rosberg was turning the wheel right, to negotiate what was still a right hand bend?
Rosberg was running out of road?
There's a head on shot of the incident (all over the internet), right at the moment of impact, showing that both drivers were turning right?
Any other queries?
:laugh: do you actually believe that? it was a freakin' hissy fit :laugh: if anything it's Rosberg playing with Hamilton's head :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Honestly, I doubt anyone can explain that to YOUQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I think it's both. Rosberg was visibly dismayed by the reaction he got on the podium and the team are extremely unhappy with him. I'd rather be in Hamilton's position trailing in the points than in Rosberg's, the team donkey of Belgium. The dust will settle and these guys will move on, but the relationship is damaged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
Do they all have hissy fits or just Hamilton? It's interesting the use of language when drivers make statements. For drivers we dislike we tend to make it sound more dramatic than it actually was.
You also haven't quoted that transcript yet to back up your view previously on how you perceived Lewis to be 'pathetic' behind the scenes.
Nope, I doubt anyone can explain it to ME either, and the reason for that is just that there is no other explanation than him being a dirty cheat who knows he can't beat Lewis in a straight fight so takes him out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
If there's anything good to come out of this, is that it's clear now that Nico the Cheat is afraid of Lewis on track so if they get 7 remaining clean races without Nico cheating and getting away with it again then I don't see any reason why Lewis can't win each one of them.
Agreed!Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
They all have hissy fits. Every one of them. Hamilton, Vettel & Rosberg (both particularly prone to them), Alonso, Button. I can't think of any driver that has never had a hissy fit. This is the nature of the beast when you're such a competitive individual. The only one so far I haven't seen having a hissy fit in the top teams is Ricciardo. What a champ he is going to be when his day comes!
Exactly and let's not forget this was heat of the moment stuff and emotions were running high amongst many of the team post race. Toto may have said things he would have preferred to retract, but he was honest in the moment. It is unacceptable to punt your team mate off on the second lap and those who suggest Lewis should have seen in coming are either being negative because of the individual or not understanding how this all works.
Agreed - those that are suggesting Lewis should have seen it coming are also indirectly admitting that Nico is a cheat because they are suggesting it's premeditated and against the rules. Anyway, I still firmly believe Hamilton can win this championship and if there is justice in F1 and I hope there is, he will.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
That makes no sense. It can't be a hissy fit and mind games at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough about that. I have absolutely no intention to take you seriously on that. However you got it slightly wrong. I perceived Lewis pathetic on scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Wait a minute, I thought Lewis was just being shrewd and playing mind games with Nico. Now you come and say he was justifiably hysterical?Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
After words like these I wonder why did they even botherQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
It can if the anger is used with a known outcome. Lewis would have known as he made the comments that it would upset Rosberg to some degree. It's not complex behavioural science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
Your second point was opinion based on an assumption then. If you had said that in the first place it could have been given the ignorance it deserved from my point of view.
Again I think I've answered that. Lewis would have known how damaging his comments could have been. If I argue with somebody and raise my voice, I generally know it will upset them and cause their mood to be affected for a period of time, just for example. Is that hard to understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
People think Nico on purpose or just accident. There no real proof one way or other way so it up to individual opinion. Yes?
Point 1 - Nico very good Pilot. Make very few mistakes and in F1 mistake almost always cost time, places, results. Very, very rare mistake end up in benefit to that Pilot. Yes?
Nico make 2 'mistake' this year against Lewis and net result is 32 point advantage over Lewis because of 2 'mistakes'.
Point 2 - There 2 very weak points in contact on F1 car. Front wing end plate and tire sidewall. Minimal contact with tire sidewall from end plate usually result in broken end plate and tire puncture. Car drive ok with minimal loss performance with no end plate. Sometimes go faster. Tire puncture mean loss of all track position at minimum at start race.
No risk for Nico as if he take both car out, he still lead by same margin with next race gone.
I no believe in coincidence. I think always need follow money and Nico benefit massively from every time he make mistake? That very suspicious.
I no believe in coincidence too. Many fancy words in your text is. Hard to understand weird phrasing in these conditions it is.
I've just read what Coulthard had to say on the matter. I was really shocked whose side he took :laugh:. The really funny thing to me is the idea that one driver is entitled to the 'racing line'. They invent silly things like DRS to make overtaking easier and improve the 'show' and then they come up with the imaginary 'racing line'. For some unknown reason one driver is supposed to concede the other this 'racing line'. The only racing line they should acknowledge is the black wide strip of tarmac we call track. If one's to assume that whoever is beside him will just back down and let him take whatever ideal racing line he has in his head than he's taking a risk and should live with the results.
You've shown you can take any fact and twist is, so the only submission on my part is that it's a waste of time attempting to state an opinion that opposes your own in this situation. You've made it clear that you feel anyone that doesn't agree with your assumptions is wrong in your mind. I find it even more comical when you bring mention of the race card into the discussion as if anyone here would be influenced by the color of Hamiltons skin.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I might add that Doc Austin and a few others think the incident was intentional, but have stated that without attempting to insult anyone else that doesn't agree. People such at that will have opinions respected by me even if I don't agree, as they have shown no bias in their decision.
People that attempt to insult or question others, play the race card, and show a trend of defending certain drivers at all costs openly display their bias in the matter and as such I really don't care much what their opinion is, because they are unable to respect the opinion of others.
I especially liked the part where Alonso, one of the most respected drivers on the grid, just made a mistake, while Nico is the tire assassin for lesser contact. Maybe you'll find someone that falls for that view, but it certainly won't be me. :laugh:
I sorry Mr Ben but you make fun? Why? What part confuse you and I explain if you not have ability to understand or others with more intelligence may translate :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
I no shocked as DC not always first to see intent :laugh: but I agree that DC defend Nico a bit too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
I understand but you find those more intelligent people help translate to you what I say they might.Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFeegle
Doc , you do "point the car the way you want it to go" .Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
Absolutely true .
Trust between racers is paramount .
Hamilton and his fans are upset that his race was ruined .
What we need to understand is that I believe Nico felt that the only thing he could trust in a situation like this is that Hamilton would assume he would back out , even though he had his wheel at Lewis's sidepod only moments before .
There was absolutely no attempt to even allow for the possibility that Nico would be there .
With that nefariously characterized turn to the right , it set Nico on a reasonable trajectory for completing the turn with Lewis on the inside .
But , simply , Lewis didn't allow for this possibilty only split seconds earlier .
He would have had to lift with , or even before Rosberg had , to make it whilst leaving room for his team mate .
He didn't , and his team mate showed him he can't just assume that any more .
Sure , it was deliberate , but it wasn't meant to take him out .
Nor was it "clumsy" , as it has been called .
That is , unless you count both drivers in on that .
Nico put his car in danger intentionally , as you should be able to do if you can trust your opponent to leave you space to race him , and made the point that Hamilton never had any intention to leave him that space .
Lewis was on the inside of the first part of the chicane, how else was he supposed to leave room? When you are on the inside, you have to take the straightest line through the middle of the 'S'. The only other option would have been to brake harder and lose about 20mph by going right and allowing Rosberg the optimal line. Why would he compromise the chicane for a guy that was behind him and only briefly partially alongside in early braking? The fact of the matter is Lewis had to use the racing line through the corner and Rosberg was expected to realise he had lost the corner about 20 feet further back. Nico was 100% at fault and I can't even entertain how Lewis can pick up any responsibility.
Negotiating a corner at a those speeds demands respect from both drivers and the one on the outside and behind has even more responsibility to not crash into the other guy. We might expect a complete moron like Maldonado to pull a move like that but not an intelligent driver like Nico.
There's been some talk about the "racing line," and who "owns" the corner. These are all subjective things, much like no one can really define "blocking." One thing that is not subjective are the laws of physics, especially the one about two objects occupying the same space at the same time. No matter what you might think the rules are, or how you interpret (or misinterpret) them, you can't put your car on a piece of road that the other car is already on.
Now, where did Nico think his car was going to go? Nico tried to put his car in a space that was already occupied. There s no way he could have possibly misjudged it so badly that he thought he was not going to hit Hamilton.
Again, before anyone wants to accuse me of being a "Hamilton fan," I'm also a Nico fan (or was), so I don't really have a prejudice here. I would have certainly much rather have not seen this happen. I would be ok with either driver winning as long as they do it clean.
If this was simply an accident, there would not have been the exchange of trash talk we are seeing. If Nico really did make a mistake, he could have just said so, and maybe been a little contrite, or pretended to be. Instead, he has been defiant. If he really made a mistake and took his teammate out, wouldn't he have at least said a little something about being sorry, or at least saying he did not mean to do it? Or at least said it was "unfortunate?"
Sure, he said it was a "racing incident," but that's not very convincing. It's like saying "that's racing," or "I did not have sex with that woman." Then again, it is hard to explain why you would turn the wheel toward your teammate, so if Nico offers no explanation, at least he is not outright lying.
If I run into my teammate by accident, I am on the radio with my engineer immediately telling him to square it away with Lewis' engineer, but none of that from Nico, at least nothing we have heard. If Nico had radioed in he was sorry or admitted a mistake, it is hard to believe Toto and Lauda would have initially been so upset with him.
Watching the team scrambling to sweep this under the rug has been both amusing and revealing. The "Hamilton misinterpreted Nico" statement is utter rubbish. How can you misinterpret "I could have avoided it but did not want to." To me that says you wanted a collision.
The whole "prove a point" thing can be taken many ways, but it is hard to justify "proving a point" to your supposed teammate when Mercedes is spending billions for you to bring the cars home 1 and 2. It's also hard to justify "proving a point" in a potentially deadly situation.
I only have my own opinion and some limited karting and Formula Ford experience to draw from, but I can never remember a time that I turned my wheels at another kart unless I wanted to hit him.
Like Damon Hill insisted, my instinct is to avoid a collision. This does not include turning the wheel toward my opponent. Since the car goes where you point it, what did you think was going to happen?
The racing line and who own the corner is not subjective most of the time. In fact, the laws of physics you talk about are irrelevant. For example, the guy who owns the racing line has the right to turn into the car that's diving on the inside, if the inside car is behind by half length or so. Such convention removes the ambiguity. Moreover, you can't even blame that car in front because the driver does not even always see the car behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
Yes. Wishful thinking, or perhaps he hoped Hamilton was going to blink. Anyways. Rosberg did try to bail out and give space to Hamilton but his nose was off by a few inches which he needed to clear Hamilton's wheel. Exactly the same type of accident or near accident happens all the time. Very ordinary stuff. Case closed.Quote:
Now, where did Nico think his car was going to go? Nico tried to put his car in a space that was already occupied. There s no way he could have possibly misjudged it so badly that he thought he was not going to hit Hamilton.
Yes, Rosberg should have apologized for making a mistake.Quote:
If this was simply an accident, there would not have been the exchange of trash talk we are seeing. If Nico really did make a mistake, he could have just said so, and maybe been a little contrite, or pretended to be. Instead, he has been defiant. If he really made a mistake and took his teammate out, wouldn't he have at least said a little something about being sorry, or at least saying he did not mean to do it? Or at least said it was "unfortunate?"
You fail to analyze the situation or read the previous posts. Rosberg turned the wheel to stay on track. He would have cleared Hamilton's wheel if he was slightly behind. Yes, this is a racing incident that's caused by Rosberg's misjudgement. Rosberg is a bad team player and should have apologized. Taking the argument further and arguing that collision was intentional is just bonkers as there is no evidence to prove malicious intent and ex ante Rosberg was just as likely to wreck his own car.Quote:
Sure, he said it was a "racing incident," but that's not very convincing. It's like saying "that's racing," or "I did not have sex with that woman." Then again, it is hard to explain why you would turn the wheel toward your teammate, so if Nico offers no explanation, at least he is not outright lying.
Hamilton's tire and Nico's wing suggest otherwise. No matter what the rules are, two cars can not occupy the same piece of road at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
I would say the front wing contacting rear wheel would be significantly more behind than half a length. By your own reasoning, it was Hamilton's corner.Quote:
For example, the guy who owns the racing line has the right to turn into the car that's diving on the inside, if the inside car is behind by half length or so.
By turning the wheel towards Hamilton?Oddly, my instinct would be to avoid the collision.Quote:
Anyways. Rosberg did try to bail out and give space to Hamilton.......
I analyzed it just fine, precisely because I did not let other posts influence what I saw with my own eyes.Quote:
You fail to analyze the situation or read the previous posts.
Outside of Monoco, when do you ever see a driver put that much lock on the steering wheel? Answer: Just about never. Point the car where you want it to go.Quote:
Rosberg turned the wheel to stay on track.
The alternater answer is that Rosberg is a total putz who has no idea what he is doing and is perfectly capable of making such a huge mistake. I'm sure you don't believe that and neither do I.
How else can you interpret "I could have avoided the contact but didn't want to?" If you let something happen, that's not much different from making it happen.Quote:
Taking the argument further and arguing that collision was intentional is just bonkers as there is no evidence to prove malicious intent and ex ante Rosberg was just as likely to wreck his own car.
Nico Rosberg immediately blamed Hamilton for the incident, but added that he could have avoided the contact, but didn't want to. He went on to tell Lewis, Toto Wolff, and Paddy Lowe that he allowed the contact to happen in order to 'prove a point.'
I did not and do not want to believe Nico hit Hamilton on purpose, but when you look at the video and then read Nico lamely trying to explain the incident away, it doesn't add up to just an accident.
Hamilton didn't slow to make the corner as Nico did .
Nico was left with no option but to cut the corner .
That's no option but being forced off .
As forcing another driver off is against the rules , Nico , who had his wheel beside Lewis's sidepod , should have had the option to chose to trust that his team mate who knew he was there and try to make the corner , at least at that point .
Not lifting at that point negated the possibility that Lewis could leave room for Nico , and it was that speed that has been seen as the reason he somehow automatically gets to take the racing line , because it surged him ahead at that same point Nico was setting up the corner .
Both had their claim to the corner , and that's why it was deemed not worthy of investigation , as both were guilty of making that claim .
It seems the stewards didn't see Nico as a "cheat" or "dirty" or anything other than a guy involved in a racing incident .
The same with Hamilton , as far as that goes .
They agree with me .
This is all very unfortunate in many ways.
Mercedes have a problem as its drivers are fighting and starting to let Ricciardo near
F1 has a problem as the gap in the WDC is now becoming big and threatens the Championship fight. The only 2014 will be a success given the dominance of their cars is if Mercedes have an epic inter team battle.
Also it cause a lot of controversy when the stewards made their decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
Excellent post!
I used to do a lot of racing when I was a kid until a car traffic accident curtailed my career, but I never turned in on another driver like that unless I wanted to do damage to his race. If I wanted to hit a guy to prove a point, as only a stupid kid would do, then I would hit his rear to spin him around. I remember one time I drove into a chicane side by side with a guy in karting who had ruined my race the week before, much similar to Nico and Lewis yesterday and I swerved into his rear tire. Now, guess what? I did it on purpose and hit him exactly where I wanted to hit him, he spun and I went on to win the race. You only make this kind of move if you want to hurt a guys race. The difference between me and Nico is that I was a stupid kid, Nico should know better but clearly he doesn't. In karts we were driving 1/2 the speed these guys are driving at. It's too risky to do things like this at that level.
I used to do a lot of racing myself. I remember one time I was on a straight just before a right-left chicane with this other kid having the front half of his kart side by side with mine. And I was thinking I'm so hungry and I have big balls and this other guy is a wuss. he always backs down and lets me have my way. I'm gonna take his sandwich from him when we're done with this... I'm hungrier than him... and then I turned left and then right like there was no one beside me. well, this time he he didn't back down and I lost and he went on and stuck it to me and I threw a hissy fit bla bla bla. Now I'm older I know I was such a retard back then.
Just my own personal made up similar story to prove a point
and no henners... I don't have videos of black night's entire life to prove anything
There is no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
What do you mean "only"? There are other points of interest for "the fans". Few races have been processional, a lot have held interest. If nothing else, this season has been a success due to Ricciardo elevating himself this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
I worked that out early on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben