https://dirtfish.com/rally/ara/toyot...a-rc2-for-ara/
Toyota have been busy.
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https://dirtfish.com/rally/ara/toyot...a-rc2-for-ara/
Toyota have been busy.
Porsche dashboard in pictures. Also the front of the car under the cover in the first pic released looked like Porsche. Interesting, is it only for sampling?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
The Rally1 Cars have common safety cell structures, centrally designed in partnership with the FIA, for safety reasons. A coupe wouldn't really work unless it was scaled up, which defeats the object of being lower than a normal car.Quote:
Originally Posted by GigiGalliNo1
Per Dirtfish then: Commercial rights for the World Rally Championship are then expected to formally transfer to the winner of the tender on January 1, 2026, DirtFish understands.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-p...motion-tender/
But minimum height is 1270mm, which is around the height of Porsche Cayman and a bit less than 992. Abarth 124 is 3-4 cm lower and Alpine is around 2 cm lower. Both BMW M2 and M4 are aroud 12cm higher. So that isn't really an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
EDIT: What seems like a bigger issue is imo that lenght of the car must be between 4100-4300 mm. Sure, SUVs, hatchback or even the M2 can be scalled down, but you can't really shorten Cayman by 10cm without looking a bit wierd.
"Under these regulations entrants will also have the flexibility to accommodate various body types, ranging from saloons to hatchbacks, cross-overs and completely bespoke designs, that will fit over an already defined spaceframe chassis."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
No mention or renders of a coupe /sports car
Just because coupes weren't mentioned it doesn't that they are not allowed. They fall into "completely bespoke designs" category.
Yves Matton reposted this render...
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi.../suv_rend1.jpg
With the reference volumes and requirement for body work, and by looking at the concept renders above, don't they resemble 'road models' even if they are bespoke designs? Think of the fans in parts of the world who never saw a fiesta or Yaris, or Peugeot 307, they might be having the same complaint for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
IMO there's so many new models, brands, model year facelifts and trim lines these days, that most members of the public could assume these to be production cars.
As far as I understood every entry will be required to be related to a manufacturer and a car model that exists on the roads, right? The general public will continue to look at these Safety Cell with Body Pannels that Toyota runs as "a Yaris" and think "Uh, that Yaris looks so Rad with that rear spoiler and that turbo noise when they brake". I think it doesnt matter if its an actual road model or a tube frame car. The general public dont care about that. I also imagine we dont care "for real" about that. Give us good competition, entries, great events and stories that we will be very satisfied. But thats just my opinion.
No, they can if they want to, but they're not required to. That's my point, they want to get rid of even the minimal, loose tie to a car that exists on the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by giu canbera
If they are bespoke design, it means they don't resemble any road model. Getting rid of even the tiny factor that linked Rally1 with production model is just insulting...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
The non-European rally fans make up a tiny percentage of all rally fans, and I'd guess they probably know those models by other means, like videogames, Block gymkhana etc. They understand those are models from elsewhere in the world.
There's been one before, the McRae R4...
https://dirtfish.com/rally/the-one-o...-pure-driving/
Would we be happy seeing bespoke cars like this in WRC ?
Colin was planning for the R4 to be sold as road version too, in limited numbers. I'd be fine with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
And it's not the only car in history to be "made up" for rallying. Few cars in France in the 70's, and I know there's Darrian in Britain and Ireland, which I don't think has produced any road version? But we're talking about national rallies and what, the 0.000001% of rally cars.
They agree to that because WRC is in need for new entries. If there would be constant interest from various brands through cycles or eras, they wouldn't open the regs so much. Also I think there will not be that much weird design of cars or teams with those cars. Maybe one, but as soon as they would somehow get some deal with brand, the car will look like some road model.
I know they won't resemble a particular named existing production (road) model, but from a distance they'll fit the generally accepted shape and look of what a production model would be to somebody who has no idea or care for there are not 10,000 of them all around the globe. They won't look like buggies, spaceships or dragsters, in other words.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
It's apparently not the shape, look or technical specs of these cars that bothers you, but that there aren't consumer production manufacturers involved. You say that's insulting, but it's commercial stuff reflecting the era we live in. It's a pivotal change but entirely necessary. If they didn't have to have done it, they wouldn't have done it. The only alternative is an amateur historics sport instead and no WRC at all.
Exactly, and with some positive imagination the sport could boom and some small time tuner could be the next cool production car brand. F1 wouldn't be where it is today if the garagistas hadn't made it cool, and some are now selling 'road cars'.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
They will look like the shape of a production model, then fans will ask "What is that car?" and the answer is "It's a Project Rally One Rally1, it's not based on any actual road model, you can't buy a road version and you can't find it anywhere else"... then look at the disappointment of the fans asking the question...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
It's not surprising that most comments on the Project Rally One announcement and on the FIA regs are people speculating what models these new cars are going to be... Porsche, Subaru BRZ, Honda Civic Type-R etc.
I'm all for cars like the Swedish Mitsubishi Mirage R5. In the Group A days, there were many Audi rally cars never used officially by Audi, but only privateers, or national importers: Coupé, 90, S2... This is a step too far.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Where is the red line? When are we going to say stop, it's not rallying anymore? What if in future they'll propose, because of commercial reasons and to boost entries, to allow SxS and motorbikes in WRC... or to have WRC rallies only inside circuits. I'm sure the vast majority of rally fans would hate that, that wouldn't be WRC anymore. Changing one of the core aspects of rallying/WRC to keep WRC alive is a contradiction. If WRC isn't sustainable anymore, I'd rather them to do a new discipline with these type of cars and scale down rallying to an ERC level, with privateers and semi works team.
They will look like the shape of a production model, then fans will ask "What is that car?" and the answer is "It's a Project Rally One Rally1"... then "OK thanks, I'm going to support that team because it's red and white and got cool drivers with Gen Z names like Lando. I follow him on Bik Bok"...Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
The middle aged people will learn they're getting old and will get used to it very quickly I'm sure. It's a big change. Older people will watch old videos on VHS and say "they look like real men there, not like these kids today".
We need to live in our times and not compare to the incomparable and unachievable. There were no commercial rights or promoter in Group A amateur privateer days and no Rally car extensions to Group A. Where is the red line? Maybe you will realise now it was put there 30 years ago and has been moving closer to you ever since. You decide, it's personal to you, but I think you will still be watching in the future ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Lol this is worse slippery slope than I've ever seen at Twitter, lol. You are starting to look a bit crazy, focus206. Just because rallying will allow cars that don't look like any car sold there will be motorbikes and racing only inside circuits? Also SxS would be better for you, wouldn't they? Because you can buy Polaris RZR and drive it on the roads. And didn't WRC change one of the core aspects of rallying in 90s, when kit-car and WRCs were introduced, basically blocking any private tuners?
Did you forget that tuners CAN use bespoke design, not must use it? They also can use body shape of any other car. And I bet most of them will. They can find some funding from local importers, it's much better marketable for customers and it will be much more interesting for the fans. There ara lot ofof upsides.
One situation where using bespoke design makes more sense is if some tuner tries to get support from the brands so they use generic design to show their car is top level. Or when some big investor that isn't behind any car brand cames, like Bahrain did in Dakar.
Also again, 90% of rally fans don't even know that current Rally1s are also on the space frame. And those who knows don't really care. You can see that on instagram, where some cassay says that space frame will be end of rallying or successfully ignoring the fact that it's being already used. And the rest just care about what car it resembles.
WRC is in state that we simply can't choose who will come and with what. Everything would be accepted. What do we say about Lancia. Sorry but in reality Lancia Ypsilon is ugly as shit but we are so happy they choose to recover their brand with entering into rallying again. Also Toyota is very ugly and Hyundai too. Only Puma does look like some beautiful made rally car by new standards, even if it's completely changed in dimensions of a real road car. Some of them will be ugly, some of them will look awesome, and some of them will not look like anything from showroom. When the WRC will boom with entries, then I think rules will be somehow strict again, but right now anyone which does bring more entries is welcome. Also I like the idea there is various segments of car, even if there would be Porsche in it, as long as there is good competition, worth watching it completely live (on site) and as long as many of us will be excited to follow every single event from start to the end.
I don't think that's what will happen. If someone, even younger, approaches the world of rallying, does so because they like cars, especially the ones that remind road cars models, as opposed to single seaters. Are they going to be enthusiastic about these made up protos? I don't think so. Just like nobody was excited about those Extreme E cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
If we don't look at the world with a historical prespective and without the knowledge of the past, we're doomed to never understand the present, let alone build a future. In rallying terms, the line has been pushed and pushed and today we see they're getting rid of one of the core aspects (if not THE core aspect) of rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
No, I won't be watching a championship if it will be infested by these "things", many other championships and disciplines out there.
Those are examples of red lines that shouldn't be crossed, I don't think they will happen. But if one just accepts everything, who knows what the future can bring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Absolutely, SxS fit the requirements more than these protos in terms of production - but they're SxS, not cars, so they don't qualify as WRC contenders in my book.
Did you read the conversation? I literally said that few posts ago, when I answered to giu canbera. It's possible that Project Rally One's car will be similar to a Porsche model, I know. I don't like the "CAN" though, should be a requirement at the very least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Yes, I see fans that care what car it resembles too. And I believe they'll be disappointed when/if they'll understand that some of these new protos are made up and won't resemble anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
I don't really know what your alternative to all this is but sorry, I don't think you do understand the present, or are being nostalgic.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
What is the core aspect of rallying?
Driving as fast as you can wasn't the core aspect for the first 40-50 years of rallying. Modifying the cars was a big no. They couldn't remove any of the comforts that production touring cars had, there was no need to, and in many rallies all the seats had to be filled by passengers or ballast. Origins of production GTs and sportscars belong in road races, which as speed limits and laws came in were made into rallies with special stages. Maybe the red line was put in place when the touring cars were allowed to be modified, after everyone decided that racing on special stages was the more fun and entertaining way to go rallying. It was acceptable to manufacturers then. It's not now.
We've fallen out before over Ecorally, stately regularity rallies, there's your core aspect of rallying IMO. I'm not suggesting you should go to ecorally, but the consumer manufacturers would rather identify with sensible (woke) driving with winning technology (which is where F1 and WEC comes in) these days than the laddish boy racer look. That's a sign of our times. Win on Sunday sell on Monday in rallying is an absolute joke. Nobody even test drives anything anymore, they work out affordability with the monthly payments, then agree to a lease online what they can get from a brand they recognise and have a preconceived notion about, then the car gets delivered and then they don't drive it because they've only paid for so many miles. If it breaks, they tap the app and it gets picked up to be fixed, pr is swapped. It has traction control, reverse parks itself, lane guidances itself, crawls in traffic itself, holds the brakes itself, cruise controls itself, maps on the screen, games on the screen even, heats and demists from a phone app.... and I've not even touched self driving. Make driving 120mph sideways over a crest through a forest relatable to all that. I fully understand why it was relevant in the past, I can remember buying Max Power magazine and heading to the local retail park car park to do donuts in a car which we'd tinkered with ourselves because doom-scrolling hadn't bee invented then, but I can't really understand what or why WRC today or the future has to relate to production cars or modern motoring.
I agree SxS won't happen, it'll cronk too much with rally-raid which at world championship level has a different promotor.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Bikes on the other hand would be fantastic to see on tarmac. Imagine Canaries with bikes. Not with a co-rider riding pillion lol.
If I'd have to say what's the #1 core aspect: using cars that are related to production models. Every other aspect, such as driving on regular everyday roads, comes after, in my opinion. Yes I know, today that's no longer possible at high level. Hence why I'm okay with just the bodyshell in common. I'm not a fan of spaceframe, but I can stomach it, at least the aesthetic will resemble the production model. That's the tiny bare minimum, and now not even that, if we get tuners that make their own designs...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Because that's what rallying is! If one wants to start using protos that have 0% in common with production cars (as opposed to 1% for spaceframes and little more % for bodyshells), one should begin a new discipline or championship. Why take this away from rallying? 1% is already very little... why go to 0%?Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
If I had to say the #1 core aspect of hillclimb racing would be racing on a uphill road. It would be crazy to suggest hillclimb racing should start going downhill or on flat roads...
All this talk of Tuners and their 2027-spec cars coming in to WRC is all very well, but how are they going to be competitive against the Manufacturer teams that enter ?
Where is the budget to test and develop the car coming from and to pay a top driver if they want their car to beat the likes of Toyota, Hyundai and even Lancia (Stellantis) ?
Otherwise the cars are just going to be for also-rans and the extra cars at the top level will be pointless.
Let me rephrase the question: what aspects of the ordinary motoring that you do are found in WRC?
Saying the bodyshell is tenuous, because even the shell is modified. The bodywork put on it is substituted, the inside trim that should be attached to it is missing, a safety cage is added because it's inadequate for the sport... etc etc.
"Why take this away from rallying? 1% is already very little... why go to 0%?"
Because letting 99% go to 100% and redefining the word is much better than clinging on to something that barely exists.
How is Rally2 or anything else different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Isn´t 2027 something like Rally2 in old Group B format?
I think wrc27 spaceframe is quite close to Gr.B actually, only diffence is the 200 roadcars they had to build then.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...bc8d496e7f.jpg
Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk
This is something I wondered about too. I can only imagine they are hoping to sell enough cars to privateers to make it viable, or speculating some manufacturer with no internal motorsport department might pay them to change the bodywork and stick their badge on the bonnet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
At least these cars will be cheaper to develop and run than Rally1, otherwise I don’t see that this would be possible at all.
Is there going to be some new second tier class to replace Rally2 in the long run, based on proper cars? Or maybe some official FIA electric production car based class?
Because they're not the top Class, not competing with the big boys, which these 2027 Cars will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
A question for the technical people: can tuners who are not following a road car shape gain some speed advantage from that? Can they do better aero, or put the wheels nearer the corners, or keep fragile bits away from bumps in the road, or anything like that?
Dont all Constructors have to sell these new cars (chassis) to anyone who wants one ? So wont everyone just buy the Toyota to get the best and not bother with some shed-built private one ?
I don't know what that is but it isn't WRC2027.Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
How is Rally2 or anything else different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
So in theory an independant tuner could turn up with a WRC27 car and a 1980's GpB lookalike body within reason without the 1980's wings. Or something that looks like a Lancia Stratos or Mk2 Escort.
Not without hearing from Lancia or Ford legal department. So, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry hairpin
what? i could swear i read that builders needed to have some kinda of manufacturer 'agreement' and that the body pannels needed to be more or less like an actual road car. i think NOT having to follow that is even better. i remember thinking "ahh but then they arent going to find manufacturers willing to autorize them to build cars". good news imo haha