[WRC] News & rumours (part III)

Another thing that I think is wrong is that the cars are underpowered for the cost. A WRC needs another 50 or 60 bhp but is still mentally expensive in its currenf format. I think R5 may save wrc. Costs need controlling and more competitive drivers in R5 will help.

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Originally Posted by Jack4688`

I don't know about itsveryone else but there are two big problems with the current WRC TV coverage. Well they're minor really but they reduce my enthusiasm for watching it so much.

1. In-car cameras used to be positioned behind the the driver/co-driver - not only could you see the scenery bearing down on the car but you could see the driver hard at work fighting the controls and the co-driver trying to keep cool whilst being thrown about. What was wrong with that and why do we now have to view through a tiny portion of the windscreen that often gets covered in muck, thereby reducing total visible action?

2. Helicopter shots, helicopter shots and more helicopter shots! Rally cars tearing through open moorland, over Alpine roads or between giant trees looks about 10 times less spectacular when viewed from above with these ruddy heli-cams. All you can really see is the car covering ground rather than the way it takes the crests and puts it's power down out of a hairpin bend. The few times we do see stage-side action - Argentina's power stage for example, due to fog rendering the heli-cam useless - it is so much more spectacular, mainly because you get a proper sense of the speed the cars travel at.

So when promotors/team bosses/FIA talk about getting fans interested in Rallying again and only talking b*ll*cks about 'new media', more live coverage etc I just shout at my computer screen because they're missing the point. The product isn't failing, it's the boring way most of it is broadcast. Just think how boring RX, F1, Moto GP etc would become if around 70% of the event was shown from a helicopter. Or depending on your opinion on those sports, how much more boring it would become

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I agree totally with the footage aspect....its shit. I think the hardcore fan have a far better idea about the future of the WRC.

I fear however than another downgrade on the cars will throw many fans away from the sport, I myself dont see me doing hundreds of km's to see R5's as the top category on a World Championship level.

Malcom Wilson said the difference between current WRC and R5 on the eye is pretty much unnoticeable, well allow me to disagree. If you see both on the same spot you will clearly see the difference, plus the Fiesta R5 may just be the most boring car to come out of the M-sport facilities in the last years.

I think the FIA, teams etc can make all the changes they like and the WRC will still never be a very popular sport. The masses want glamour, if Ogier was dating Jennifer Laurence, Neuville playing the field with supermodels, Hirvonen married to Cheryl Cole and Latvala seeing a bikini model, you can bet your bottom dollar that the WRC would become popular. Its sad, but in the late 90s and early 2000s driver salaries were higher and this created more buzz, more news coverage, and thus more followers. Example of this was McRae signing for Ford, loads of media attention, Focus tv adverts, more computer games etc etc. Apart from Loeb in France ive not seen a WRC driver promoting a branded product, for years.

What's glamour about Dakar?

+1 @ Jack4688
very well said.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

What's glamour about Dakar?

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There isn't, and;

A. I've never seen it on TV
B. It's not in the news (unless someone dies on a motorbike)
C. Not in the national papers
D. Don't know anyone who knows any drivers as a household name
E. Never heard a conversation about Dakar or anyone or it's driver down the pub
F. Never seen a manufacturer promoting their car through the Dakar


Must I go on? Dakar is less visible than the WRC

Well, Peugeot except huge expenses are actually concerned mostly about the promotion of the sport. R5, R5+ would be also good if there are no wrc cars imho. The important thing is how the sport is promoted. The presentation package perspective - land cameras - cumbersome, heli cams - boring, has someone actually consider drones - they present such attractive perspective.

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Originally Posted by Doon

There isn't, and;

A. I've never seen it on TV
B. It's not in the news (unless someone dies on a motorbike)
C. Not in the national papers
D. Don't know anyone who knows any drivers as a household name
E. Never heard a conversation about Dakar or anyone or it's driver down the pub
F. Never seen a manufacturer promoting their car through the Dakar


Must I go on? Dakar is less visible than the WRC

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Dakar is quite huge here in the Netherlands. During January you will hear people talk about it in the pubs etc. WRC is invisible.

Are there dutch driver in Dakar?

I don't think we can compare the Dakar and WRC anyway. For a start the Dakar is not the Dakar, and its only one event like the Fafe Rally Sprint.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the WRC apart from the TV coverage (in the UK). I have been to rally gb for the last 12 years, and the speed and commitment has only grown. The problem is not the sport itself but the people who expect more from it.

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Originally Posted by Doon

Are there dutch driver in Dakar?

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Quite a lot, yes, many of them in the Truck category.

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Originally Posted by Doon

Are there dutch driver in Dakar?

I don't think we can compare the Dakar and WRC anyway. For a start the Dakar is not the Dakar, and its only one event like the Fafe Rally Sprint.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the WRC apart from the TV coverage (in the UK). I have been to rally gb for the last 12 years, and the speed and commitment has only grown. The problem is not the sport itself but the people who expect more from it.

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This is the main point. What are they expecting? Are they seriously expecting something approaching F1? C'mon - get real. All non F1 Motorsport has been marginalised in the last 10-15 years.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

heli cams - boring, has someone actually consider drones - they present such attractive perspective.

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You do understand that you are proposing to use less useful flying camera? Heli cams are great, it's just that landscape sets some boundaries. Drones in rallying are still pretty pointless because you can only use it for hovering. Their fly speeds are too small compared to the speed cars are doing. Also at the moment they've got more of an effect camera role like most action cameras.

Another thing with drones are the safety risks.

More on ground cameras is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Doon

There isn't, and;

A. I've never seen it on TV
B. It's not in the news (unless someone dies on a motorbike)
C. Not in the national papers
D. Don't know anyone who knows any drivers as a household name
E. Never heard a conversation about Dakar or anyone or it's driver down the pub
F. Never seen a manufacturer promoting their car through the Dakar


Must I go on? Dakar is less visible than the WRC

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Here in CZ the news are full of Dakar. Every day it has a relation on national TV etc. It has way better coverage than WRC in our media. I think that it's similar in quite many countries.

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Originally Posted by Doon

I think the FIA, teams etc can make all the changes they like and the WRC will still never be a very popular sport. The masses want glamour, if Ogier was dating Jennifer Laurence, Neuville playing the field with supermodels, Hirvonen married to Cheryl Cole and Latvala seeing a bikini model, you can bet your bottom dollar that the WRC would become popular. Its sad, but in the late 90s and early 2000s driver salaries were higher and this created more buzz, more news coverage, and thus more followers. Example of this was McRae signing for Ford, loads of media attention, Focus tv adverts, more computer games etc etc. Apart from Loeb in France ive not seen a WRC driver promoting a branded product, for years.

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And for Loeb, that's quite recent.
Citroën never used him a lot to promote their cars ... These last days a bit more.
I remember one for the C4 Picasso, and one for the C4. This one is the only talking directly of rally :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojc5iIiRklY

Then he wasn't used by them, at the exception of a small clip for the Euro 2012 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojc5iIiRklY
And something for a limited C4 Picasso, so short term publicity. More to promote Rossignol ski brand too (partner of the car).

Citroën never used him a lot, and rally was more or less a forbidden word.
Now we see Loeb for private partners, who promote more him (and Citroën) than Citroën did ...

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Originally Posted by Doon

There isn't, and;

A. I've never seen it on TV
B. It's not in the news (unless someone dies on a motorbike)
C. Not in the national papers
D. Don't know anyone who knows any drivers as a household name
E. Never heard a conversation about Dakar or anyone or it's driver down the pub
F. Never seen a manufacturer promoting their car through the Dakar


Must I go on? Dakar is less visible than the WRC

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nothing of these points is true. the first one to add to my ignore list after the forum has been renewed.

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Originally Posted by SlowSon

nothing of these points is true. the first one to add to my ignore list after the forum has been renewed.

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So you put anyone on ignore list as soon they have opposite thoughts than you? There´s anyway much truth in what Doon says, here in Sweden.

Hello! I wonder if people are missing the point. It is exciting that people can follow the sport round the world, but rallying is traditionally a sport of active rather than passive participation. It has been like that for 100 years, why now try to change that? MotorsportMonday.com th
is week had a column feature suggesting that TV might not be the holy grail after all.

Chasing TV is old news. It’s 2014 – online streaming is the way to go for ‘Live’ coverage. Use TV for highlights/review programmes.
RedBull have their own online ‘TV station’ – and haven’t used it as they could have; look at the Mountain Biking World Cup as an example. That is what they should have done with the WRC.

Some series even stream on either YouTube or Dailymotion.

I want to say that the best wrc days were when the sport was expensive.group b,the group a with the endless testing,the wrc with the 3 active differentials etc.if the cars are cheap i don't think it will be attractive for the public.we all want a little bit to see <exotic> cars!what i want to say is that high cost have helped the sport in the past.why not know?

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Originally Posted by nafpaktos

I want to say that the best wrc days were when the sport was expensive.group b,the group a with the endless testing,the wrc with the 3 active differentials etc.if the cars are cheap i don't think it will be attractive for the public.we all want a little bit to see <exotic> cars!what i want to say is that high cost have helped the sport in the past.why not know?

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Yes, also in those times common cars had 50 Hp and the rally cars had 10x more! Nowadays 300 Hp engine in a road car isn't that special. When You take a used car You don't need to be any rich to have one. Even if You take that most common cars have around 100-150 Hp it's still only 2x-3x less than WRC car. Nothing mind-blowing about that. I know that modern rallying is not about raw power but the raw power has always been very appealing to the general public. Many people dream about crazy cars with 600 Hp they can watch on Top Gear...

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Originally Posted by Doon

There wasnt one guy totally dominating, that is the problem. Even when Makinen won 4 on the trot he didnt look invincible......Loeb was and now Ogier is, and he may win for the next 6 or 7 years.

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I think that this has been a large contributing factor to the current state of the WRC; after Gronholm retired, there was simply no competition at all, and Loeb sleepwalked to 5 titles in row. With Ogier, as you said, it looks like more of the same.

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Originally Posted by SlowSon

nothing of these points is true. the first one to add to my ignore list after the forum has been renewed.

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If none are true, then at least give me the list of Dakar's 'household' name drivers, please? In fact, just give me one?

Throughout the history of the Dakar, most non-fans will only remember one person. Mark Thatcher, because he got lost and was Maggie's son.

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

So you put anyone on ignore list as soon they have opposite thoughts than you? There´s anyway much truth in what Doon says, here in Sweden.

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not the thoughts, the facts! you are the second :D

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

Chasing TV is old news. It’s 2014 – online streaming is the way to go for ‘Live’ coverage. Use TV for highlights/review programmes.
RedBull have their own online ‘TV station’ – and haven’t used it as they could have; look at the Mountain Biking World Cup as an example. That is what they should have done with the WRC.

Some series even stream on either YouTube or Dailymotion.

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exactly.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Yes, also in those times common cars had 50 Hp and the rally cars had 10x more! Nowadays 300 Hp engine in a road car isn't that special. When You take a used car You don't need to be any rich to have one. Even if You take that most common cars have around 100-150 Hp it's still only 2x-3x less than WRC car. Nothing mind-blowing about that. I know that modern rallying is not about raw power but the raw power has always been very appealing to the general public. Many people dream about crazy cars with 600 Hp they can watch on Top Gear...

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Agreed completely, they could/should immediately change the rules to similar as in the WTCC(same base engine as in WRC as far as I know) with bigger restrictor (think it`s 36mm) and they have according to manufactorers around 380hp so in reality probably around 400hp..

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Originally Posted by SlowSon

not the thoughts, the facts! you are the second :D

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Well, in that case you can´t read much, because everyone will be on your ignore list in the end.

I think Andy's on to something. Online coverage would be able to reach most viewers that want to watch with no regard to location. Just keep a copy available so people in vastly different time zones can still watch. I remember waking up very early to watch Euro Vision's live Monte Carlo coverage (2009?) that was just fantastic. All you need is a sponsor with a global product to promote, like Red Bull.

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

Chasing TV is old news. It’s 2014 – online streaming is the way to go for ‘Live’ coverage. Use TV for highlights/review programmes.
RedBull have their own online ‘TV station’ – and haven’t used it as they could have; look at the Mountain Biking World Cup as an example. That is what they should have done with the WRC.

Some series even stream on either YouTube or Dailymotion.

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Originally Posted by Franky

You do understand that you are proposing to use less useful flying camera? Heli cams are great, it's just that landscape sets some boundaries. Drones in rallying are still pretty pointless because you can only use it for hovering. Their fly speeds are too small compared to the speed cars are doing. Also at the moment they've got more of an effect camera role like most action cameras.

Another thing with drones are the safety risks.

More on ground cameras is the way to go.

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Yes, I know the difficulties and limited usage, but I prefer this instead of the stupid idea turning the Rally sport into Rally cross.

Nowadays WRC rallies aren’t challenging enough at the eyes of common public. The 9 to 5 schedule and the clover leaf itinerary (implemented by the mandatory use of single service areas) made WRC boring and tasteless.

The adventurous side of rallying has been lost and surely the VW/RB final day shootout plan will make things even worse, simply because it’ll put WRC even further from its original spirit.

We don’t need to be 100% purist and get back the classic layouts, but somehow there should be ways to WRC become again a physically demanding challenge for drivers and machines with huge popular recognition.

Avoiding an overall cost escalate, we could have 8 to 10 transnational rallies, without schedule restrictions, using flexible service areas and different road surfaces, instead of the current 13/14 regionally based lookalike events.

A hypothetical Lisboa-Madrid rally sounds much more appealing than nowadays algarve’s or catalunya’s WRC loops and shouldn’t be over-priced for organizers and competitors.

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Originally Posted by Jack4688`

I don't know about everyone else but there are two big problems with the current WRC TV coverage. Well they're minor really but they reduce my enthusiasm for watching it so much.

1. In-car cameras used to be positioned behind the the driver/co-driver - not only could you see the scenery bearing down on the car but you could see the driver hard at work fighting the controls and the co-driver trying to keep cool whilst being thrown about. What was wrong with that and why do we now have to view through a tiny portion of the windscreen that often gets covered in muck, thereby reducing total visible action?

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I talked to someone in Filmworks, the production company and it's the FIA limiting them from positioning the cameras where they want
stating that mounting it on the seat "ear" could cause it to go through the seat or coming loose and hurt them.

You would have to crash pretty bad for that to happen, mine even stuck on during Østberg's ski jump with the stock gopro 3m sticky mount...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Nowadays WRC rallies aren’t challenging enough at the eyes of common public. The 9 to 5 schedule and the clover leaf itinerary (implemented by the mandatory use of single service areas) made WRC boring and tasteless.

The adventurous side of rallying has been lost and surely the VW/RB final day shootout plan will make things even worse, simply because it’ll put WRC even further from its original spirit.

We don’t need to be 100% purist and get back the classic layouts, but somehow there should be ways to WRC become again a physically demanding challenge for drivers and machines with huge popular recognition.

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Give that man a cigar.

Why not relax regulations and go back to the Group B format. 200 specials, keep 20 for yourself, and make a monster. This is far more appealing, and joe public will be scrapping for one of the remaining 180 cars on sale. They need to create a buzz, a sense of something special. (btw, I think they are special enough in their current form)

Someone will stay, 'but the manufacturers can't, because their cars need to appear eco friendly, small engines, low CO2 etc', but what about RX? They are getting away with it.... for now.

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Originally Posted by MJW

Can we keep this in perspective? What I was refering to was an article attributed to a senior empoyee in a manufacturer's competition department who said WRC is too expensive and does not offer the rate of return on investment that the car manufacturer he works for expects. Peugeot had a massive publicity success rate on Pikes Peak 2013, and then Bruno Famin said the whole project cost less than a privateer spends on a wrc programme. In this article on maxrally he also said that rallyx gave them what they wanted. Face it WRC is in a crisis, we are nearing half way through year 2 if VW's guaranteed commitment of a three year programme. What next?

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Peugeot did well with the Pikes Peak program, but only they or Audi could have got the same reaction to doing what they did, and now for Peugeot it wouldnt work the same to do it again this year so while what they say cost wise may be true it isnt really relevant

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Originally Posted by Doon

I think the FIA, teams etc can make all the changes they like and the WRC will still never be a very popular sport. The masses want glamour, if Ogier was dating Jennifer Laurence, Neuville playing the field with supermodels, Hirvonen married to Cheryl Cole and Latvala seeing a bikini model, you can bet your bottom dollar that the WRC would become popular. Its sad, but in the late 90s and early 2000s driver salaries were higher and this created more buzz, more news coverage, and thus more followers. Example of this was McRae signing for Ford, loads of media attention, Focus tv adverts, more computer games etc etc. Apart from Loeb in France ive not seen a WRC driver promoting a branded product, for years.

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Funny you should write this, several years ago I advised Meeke to date (any)one of the girls from Girls Aloud, it worked for several footballers and it would have made him 100% more marketable. I'm sure his wife is lovely, and she has a good motorsport pedigree which may bode well for their children if they are blessed with them, but she did nought to raise his profile.

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Originally Posted by SlowSon

nothing of these points is true. the first one to add to my ignore list after the forum has been renewed.

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Are you saying Doon has watched Dakar and didnt realise or forgot?

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Originally Posted by Nornbugger

Are you saying Doon has watched Dakar and didnt realise or forgot?

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From 2012 official partner TVs of Dakar

EUROPE
Pan-Europe - Eurosport
CzechRepublic - Czech TV
Germany – N24, RTL, ZDF
Hungary - RTL Klub
Italy – RAI
Lithuania - Baltijos
Netherlands - RTL 7
Poland – TVN
Russia - RUSSIA 2
Spain - RTVE
Spain - Esport 3
Ukraine –1+1 &2+2

AMERICAS
Argentina - Canal 7
Brazil – Fox
Canada - RDS
Chile – TVN
Guatemala - Canal 7
Paraguay - Telefuturo
Peru– ATV& IRTP
USA – NBC

ASIA/AUSTRALIA
Australia - SBS
China - Hunan TV
Hong Kong - TVB
Japan - J Sports
New Zealand - Sky Sport

PAN-REGIONAL
Pain-Africa - Supersport
Pan-South America - Fox Sports
Pan-Asia - ESPN Star and Eurosport Asia
Pan-Europe - Eurosport
Pan Middle East - Al Jazeera Sport

Coverage on French TV

Live coverage every day* from 6:40 PM to 7:40 PM and also on sport.francetv.fr
Le Dakar
Hosted by Gérard Holtz, Luc Alphand et Elodie Gossuin

One hour of Live broadcast from the heart of the race with:
- comments from Jean-François Kerckaert from one of the official helicopters from the organisation to follow the end of the stage in the car category
- reports by Richard Coffin and Gaël Robic from the Bivouac

Dominique Le Glou proposera par ailleurs chaque jour dans cette émission son Carnet de route, avec des reportages en immersion au sein des pays traversés.

Live coverage every day* after the Tout le Sport show
Le Journal du Dakar
Hosted by Gérard Holtz et Luc Alphand

Every day* in the late evening (26 minutes)
Bivouac
Gérard Holtz and Luc Alphand meet the competitors in the bivouac and comment the best images of the day.

On Sundays 8th and 15th January
Stade 2
With special reports Live from Copiapo (Chile) and Lima (Peru).


In statistics

In almost 190 countries, a total of 70 channels will broadcast the race. Every day three TV helicopters with capture the images of the special stage and send them in a race against the clock. The 22 editing stations installed near the finish line will work relentlessly to guarantee a fast and efficient relay capacity. A total of seven hours of program content will be broadcasted daily.
1200 program content hours broadcasted in 5 continents.

Interesting discussions :)

In Finland, where all kinds of motorsports are rather popular, Dakar gets pretty much attention only when someone dies. No broadcasts, very seldom even mentioned in sports news. Only exposure is Nordic Eurosport through which they have Finnish commentator for Eurosport dakar broadcasts.

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Originally Posted by Doon

Why not relax regulations and go back to the Group B format. 200 specials, keep 20 for yourself, and make a monster. This is far more appealing, and joe public will be scrapping for one of the remaining 180 cars on sale. They need to create a buzz, a sense of something special. (btw, I think they are special enough in their current form)

Someone will stay, 'but the manufacturers can't, because their cars need to appear eco friendly, small engines, low CO2 etc', but what about RX? They are getting away with it.... for now.

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I tend to agree with this, but doesn't have to be 200 specials. Just introduce prototype cars, that will bring the wow factor to an average spectator and I am sure a lot of people will rush back to stages and the manufacturers will get the return for their money. There was nothing wrong with Gr.B apart from safety (today can be much better controlled and regulated as FIA learned a lot during the past 30 years) and crowd control that can also be controlled. Their demise was hugely for political reasons in favour of F1.

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Originally Posted by SubaruNorway

I talked to someone in Filmworks, the production company and it's the FIA limiting them from positioning the cameras where they want
stating that mounting it on the seat "ear" could cause it to go through the seat or coming loose and hurt them.

You would have to crash pretty bad for that to happen, mine even stuck on during Østberg's ski jump with the stock gopro 3m sticky mount...

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Why not force at least manufacturer entries to use special homologated seats with decent installation mounts for cameras. I am sure they can do it if they want and it should be that costly. Anyway all new WRC cars do not use off the shelve seat as they used to in the past.

People are never happy, when the onboard cameras were behind the drivers, everybody complained how they can't see the road properly... "Seats take too much space in the view", "I don't want to see rollcage but road" etc etc. :)

I understand FIA's safety concern, I always thought it is because of it that we dont see seat-mounted cameras (although we have seen them in the past, e.g. check 2011 Hirvonen Mexico & Finland onboards (Mikko used "hard-surfaced" Recaro seat that season)).

And unlike stated above, making and using specially designed seats would become really expensive. There's no need to make new seats as everything is possible with existing stuff.

Just check out Torstein Eriksen's video of Østberg Portugal test. Awesome footage with GoPros, only lacking the intercom audio.

This is camera position of Václav Pech used by Czech championship promoter Mediasport. In my opinion this is absolutely perfect: http://www.mediasport.cz/rally/onboardy/6191.html