WRC mainclass from 2027

[saco0o]

just to clarify my thoughts on that part: these discussions have been going on for a while. wrc has two manufacturers participating. during all the meetings to decide whats next, one of these 2 brands start to say around that they may leave depending on what direction the rules goes (because they know where the decisions are heading, they are on the meetings). if they didnt cared about losing hyundai to define this set of rules is probably because there was more people om this table agreeing with them. not saying new manufacturers per se, but at least other teams, for sure. otherwise they'd keep some efforts to please hyundai too, like they did when they cancelled the ditching of hybrid at that first time.
does that make sense? im thinking more of some wrc2/erc/middle-east teams thinking "yep, we can enter rally1 with these cheaper cars", not actual factory teams.

[deephouse]

just to clarify my thoughts on that part: these discussions have been going on for a while. wrc has two manufacturers participating. during all the meetings to decide whats next, one of these 2 brands start to say around that they may leave depending on what direction the rules goes (because they know where the decisions are heading, they are on the meetings). if they didnt cared about losing hyundai to define this set of rules is probably because there was more people om this table agreeing with them. not saying new manufacturers per se, but at least other teams, for sure. otherwise they'd keep some efforts to please hyundai too, like they did when they cancelled the ditching of hybrid at that first time.
does that make sense? im thinking more of some wrc2/erc/middle-east teams thinking "yep, we can enter rally1 with these cheaper cars", not actual factory teams.

But you must understand that Hyundai threat of quitting for several years now. Practically every time when changes are on table or not. They gave them jokers, been late on development and demand some stuff constantly. Why? So they will quit anyway? (No matter how they say, they want more competition) Why would they listen only them? When there is one team, which is really trying to be in the sport on a year basis without proper support and by the way are the most loyal in the history of the sport.

[becher]

So the cars will be spec or just like now with a spec roll cage structure integrated into the chassis?

[PLuto]

i think it was just cool to listen. as someone actvely involved in the sport and on these decisions, one can feel Andrew is more optimistic about the sport than most fans have been over these last years, 'uknow? dave evans knows when to 'cut' him shortly when he starts to spiral into some P.R. bs but at the same time, dave represented us fans, filled with doubts, questions and negative views about every little thing. it was an interesting dynamic. its almost like I was there complaining and asking questions lol

on the rules it was more or less the expected. FIA wants more safety so thats why they went space frame. homologations will be simpler. they will use these rules for 10 years. these new rules were decided among several stakeholders trying to find a better cheaper way for the sport. i even got the impression that there was more people involved on these meetings (nothing specific, but i left hoping theres potential new entries for the future, who knows!). they talked about rally2 being so good and so much cheap that several "rich" drivers simply didnt wanted to go wrc or rally1 car and that was one of the reasons why we lost entries on the top class, but now the top cars will be cheaper, more people will jump (so... rally2s will only win a wrc event if all "rally1' crash. Thierry was speaking non-sense). they talked about the lack of direction for road cars (ice, hybrid, evs, hydrogen) so the obvious decision was to have them all, since the world is not going full EV, theres going to have space for every type of engines. dave asked about "shouldnt we go EV to be ahead? hybrids exist since the 90's, we were so late to the game" and Andrew say that they would have to change way too much the sport in order to accomodate evs, so they need to wait a few more years until the technology is at the right level for a rallying event. they talked about "lack of promotion, cuz drivers are not national heroes anymore, on newspaper covers" but c'moon, that boat has sailed, Dave. 'people dont follow 3 day events, shouldnt we change everything?". Andrew says that best way to get someone hooked into rally is to bring them to the stages. Andrew mentions that the past regulations (17 and 22) never had budget cap, so the costs went crazy (from expensiver lighter bolts to more engineers analysing data, probably), but now they will do it right. i feel they kinda 'regreat' going for hybrids, maybe?

they briefly talked about world rx... not sure dave knows something but apparently maybe FIA itself can take over the promotion... i didnt understand that tbf. anyway, nothing special, it was just cool to listen these two chatting as a whole

Thank you for summary.

[PLuto]

But you must understand that Hyundai threat of quitting for several years now. Practically every time when changes are on table or not. They gave them jokers, been late on development and demand some stuff constantly. Why? So they will quit anyway? (No matter how they say, they want more competition) Why would they listen only them? When there is one team, which is really trying to be in the sport on a year basis without proper support and by the way are the most loyal in the history of the sport.

It is sure for long time that Hyundai will stay until the end of 2026. Question is the next future...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5z9TWhGhgF7FlpFxjXTK97?si=zX7uUtUiQcCfd9SXRsM-jw%0A
Andrew Wheatley talking about his departure and next gen rules. a good listen to be fair

It was very good and interesting to hear from someone who's been on the inside while all the discussions were going on about the future of WRC.

[saco0o]

idk whats the future but i'd love to see hyundai continuing without Cyril and racing this new car >> https://youtu.be/x_CkztJ4PHk?feature=shared

add renault, al atyah, chicherit and prodrive (theyre partners in dakar, right?) with this new car https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/5/365366/new-renault-5-turbo-3e-500bhp-electric-hot-hatch-enter-limited-production

plus msport, toyota, skoda (cmoon, ia just a matter of building/buying the space frame) and we start to get some excitment back! lol

[Sulland]

Now the Manufacturers say the cost cap figure isnt feasible...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-teams-warn-2027-car-cost-cap-isnt-feasible/

Sorry, make it work, or say go one level down.
if we had put all top drivers in Rally3 cars, after a few rallies we would continue to chear, and enjoy the fights!

[Steve Boyd]

You are talking about 30 years old history. Also basic rally cars were made in different style. Now everything is on the limits with balance between price/weight/endurance.Increasing the engine power has less of an effect on driveshafts and differentials than you might expect. The most torque you can put on a driveshaft (apart from shock loading) is the torque needed to spin the wheels. I'd guess that the torque needed to spin a dry tarmac rally tyre on dry tarmac would be higher than that needed to spin a more heavily treaded RX tyre so the loading in RX use may actually be less than in rally use. RX events are much shorter than WRC events so I wouldn't be surprised if they would only need the same number of rebuilds in a season.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Neuville says the divers weren't on the discussion panel and voted No to the new Regs...

https://rallyjournal.com/big-concerns-over-wrc-overhaul-champions-shocking-perspective/

[saco0o]

Neuville says the divers weren't on the discussion panel and voted No to the new Regs...

https://rallyjournal.com/big-concerns-over-wrc-overhaul-champions-shocking-perspective/

employees shouldnt have a vote since they are not the ones putting the money where their mouth is, to be fair.
i still see these decisions as a way to bring more teams and privateers. we have thousand of R5s out there, so people HAVE the money, in a way. Andrew Wheatley even said the reason we lost privateers was because the price. when (2012) the price gap between "rally2 and rally1' (whatever the names of the classes back then) was "smaller", we saw more drivers trying out to move up. we lost that. it is 100% positive to have a top class with simpler cheaper cars. the top guns dont want to lose their reign. they want to get their milion bucks to compete. they dont want others interfering on their way to the top.
....its a classical thing eh? WHEN THE PEASANTS START TO HAVE A SHOT, THE ELITE GETS BOTHERED!
hahahahahahahah i said this as a joke but ehhhh theres some truth to that?? hahahah

[EstWRC]

Loriaux not happy

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loriaux-warns-2027-wrc-regulations-are-already-too-late/

[deephouse]

Loriaux not happy

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loriaux-warns-2027-wrc-regulations-are-already-too-late/

So again Hyundai complaining. I hope that they will not change everything againg because of them. To me it looks like it's only excuses to them to leave completely. I bet Toyota and M-Sport will do it without major issues, and hyundai with all that resources ''can't''.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Loriaux not happy

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loriaux-warns-2027-wrc-regulations-are-already-too-late/

His argument about the engines is fair. The current road-car based Rally2 engines cant go on.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The Dirtfish writers have their say...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/is-the-wrc-heading-in-the-right-direction/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3jSdoUS8VKCQgWIwjMWf2f uDo9d00n41pMiCOsV06Y17apqD3NpxlgDhg_aem_cdBjo7qILI TLlGrRebVpUA

[saco0o]

soooo... dakar/w2rc cars to be allowed in wrc, erc too?
https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/rally-dakar-wrc/

[pedro16]

soooo... dakar/w2rc cars to be allowed in wrc, erc too?
https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/rally-dakar-wrc/

December 28th... Día de los santos inocentes.
Spanish equivalent of April fools.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ben Sulayem apologises...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-president-apologizes-for-lack-of-wrc-fixes/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhLSGEtW0AAY7d9?format=jpg&name=medium

[rallyfiend]

Ben Sulayem apologises...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-president-apologizes-for-lack-of-wrc-fixes/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhLSGEtW0AAY7d9?format=jpg&name=medium

Why on earth would anyone want MBS more involved in anything?

He leaves a trail of mess everywhere he goes.

[saco0o]

its election's year at FIA, hes just "kissing babies" in public

[Maui J.]

Interesting article on Dirtfish about Hayden Paddon running his own team under WRC2027 regulations.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/paddon-attracted-by-wrcs-future-but-not-as-a-driver/

The most interesting part was this quote...
“These new rules that have been announced for ‘27 are definitely of interest and definitely create opportunities for people like us to potentially build and run our own cars,” Paddon told DirtFish.

So if the FIA has dropped the manufacturers consent/homolagation rules this will open up the potential for private teams/tuners like Paddon's to build and run their own cars. Not sure what he would build though, he has strong connections with Hyundai New Zealand so that would conflict with the current factory team (if they are still involved by then). Maybe KIA, as it comes under the Hyundai umbrella.

On this same topic, what ever happened to the large building Petter Solberg build? There were rumours that he was going to build his own cars. Back in 2020 he's quoted as saying he was in talks with two manufactures to build and run their cars but I think Covid put an end to that. Any updates on this?

[deephouse]

Interesting article on Dirtfish about Hayden Paddon running his own team under WRC2027 regulations.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/paddon-attracted-by-wrcs-future-but-not-as-a-driver/

The most interesting part was this quote...
“These new rules that have been announced for ‘27 are definitely of interest and definitely create opportunities for people like us to potentially build and run our own cars,” Paddon told DirtFish.

So if the FIA has dropped the manufacturers consent/homolagation rules this will open up the potential for private teams/tuners like Paddon's to build and run their own cars. Not sure what he would build though, he has strong connections with Hyundai New Zealand so that would conflict with the current factory team (if they are still involved by then). Maybe KIA, as it comes under the Hyundai umbrella.

On this same topic, what ever happened to the large building Petter Solberg build? There were rumours that he was going to build his own cars. Back in 2020 he's quoted as saying he was in talks with two manufactures to build and run their cars but I think Covid put an end to that. Any updates on this?

Guess that Toyota happens. I think he was aiming at Subaru and all that talk around them at that time. Still fingers crossed that it's possible.

About Hayden. If Hyundai will leave he could take over their "project" and being in charge of Hyundai in rallying at the top level. But I don't think that will be Neuville there since their stormy past. Joke aside.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Still a lot of uncertainty and discussions to be had, says Rich Millener.

Also getting new cars ready for 2027 and at €345k is ambitious, plus new Manufacturers not guaranteed.

https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-team-boss-gave-his-honest-take-on-the-series-ambitious-target-there-is-still-some-discussion-to-be-had-there/

[saco0o]

the americans are also trying to do something about their top class. Not sure a 200k is the answer for them tho.....

https://dirtfish.com/rally/ara/details-revealed-about-revolutionary-arc2-car/?fbclid=IwY2xjawJvklBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHqPhyNHwzzhs NjjaVx2eB73DB0FQsWA6lTZJ1y6w_tSxawV3T1sLt3O84UAI_a em_a8vZPCzB6juLMDydjjnKyA

[Dimitris]

They're making a 2nd class car that costs almost as much as a Rally2. No thanks.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latvala confirms Rally2 will be the only option if/when Hyundai withdraws:

https://rallyjournal.com/jari-matti-latvala-made-a-firm-statement-on-hyundais-possible-tough-decision-then-there-are-no-alternatives/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR775GrKZPACEs8BgZEkAVqv LwPjPOWpgWZQljjYhIUA9A38rIKQyXeHZY2uMQ_aem_NcDU2Wb zMcccB4s0_6sXpw

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latest from Dirtfish....

"At a media roundtable on the eve of this week’s Rally Islas Canarias, FIA chief technical officer Xavier Mestelan Pinon revealed that “all the last details” of the bodywork will not be signed off until August – just 16 months before the new regulations will be introduced."

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/timeframe-revealed-for-wrc-2027-regs-finalization/

[becher]

So it's a spec series then. Not worthy of world championship.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So it's a spec series then. Not worthy of world championship.

Only the spaceframe, everything to hang on it isn't specified, much like Rally1 but considerably cheaper using Rally2 level parts.

[saco0o]

as long as R5s are still on 'the same levels' for a few years, then its fine. because its not everybody who have the money to build/buy these new spaceframe + aerokit cars, right? if they dont extend the lifetime of the R5s, we may cause a little crisis where less people will buy them because "they will not be able to race them by 2027" (outside national championships, probably)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

as long as R5s are still on 'the same levels' for a few years, then its fine. because its not everybody who have the money to build/buy these new spaceframe + aerokit cars, right? if they dont extend the lifetime of the R5s, we may cause a little crisis where less people will buy them because "they will not be able to race them by 2027" (outside national championships, probably)

Is this still the plan, for current Rally2 Cars to compete with the new 2027-spec cars ? I cant remember any more after this has changed so many times ! ;)

[deephouse]

I think this will be the only option. But probably will not be any official manufacturer present, because let's face it. As soon there would be in any kind of form of Toyota, nobody would stand a chance. We don't have to worry about entries, because there would probably be too much of them. As other manufacturers who currently (still) produce those kind of cars are not interested for many years now, so I think this will not change.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latest...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-fears-one-marque-wrc-in-2027-as-technical-regulations-debate-intensifies-/10717883/

[typhoon]

I see the fears coming from M-Sport, but if they need those 2 extra months, just spend them on the front and the rear, since they have already the detailed rules. From August on, just work on the rest.

As for Hyundai, enough with their crying and rule changes. This is just the last excuse to justify something they already decided long time ago, but they didn't share yet.

I'd love seeing tuners like Prodrive partnering with a manufacturer rather than Hyundai's daily soap opera.

Also, it might open the door back for Lancia and Skoda as well. Since the costs are dramatically going down, if they manage to get on board some good heavy sponsors (Abu Dhabi, TotalEnergies or something like that) they could fund very efficiently their factory campaign. I'm just speculating, but Lancia's CEO told that with current Rally1 it was too expensive and didn't guarantee return of investment. Now, who knows?

[Sal yet again]

The more I hear about 2027 and the fallout from the proposed new regs the more I think about what happened to the DTM race series. Once capable of drawing crowds as big or bigger than for F1 it fell from its pedestal thru bad promotion, falling out amongst the manufacturers and a shifting world outside of motorsport. You could quite easily say that the WRC is in the departure gate ready to follow. Whilst the following article doesnt necessarily fit completely it does raise some interesting points one of which is about being unique which certainly in recent years the top formula WRC 1 etc has been, with Rally 2 based kit that will be lost:

https://gprejects.com/centrale/opinion/gravel-trap/dtm-gt3-and-the-slow-death-of-european-motorsport

[saco0o]

fia will redesign the rally pyramid for 2027
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-will-redesign-rally-pyramid-for-2027/

does anyone know how cheaper would be to run something like this as an 'entry level' instead of rally4 and rally3?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hwLMicOd-xw
this class is exploding in autocross/rallycross, with looooots of brands producing it.
just get them to produce 2 seaters, like this one
no? entry level

[WRCStan]

does anyone know how cheaper would be to run something like this as an 'entry level' instead of rally4 and rally3?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hwLMicOd-xw
this class is exploding in autocross/rallycross, with looooots of brands producing it.
just get them to produce 2 seaters, like this one
no? entry level

Look up SSV - side-by-side vehicle, they're not new in bajas or raids or in the Middle East and Africa. One came 6th in Rally Saudi over the weekend. More simple 2-seater carts/buggys like you linked are unsuitable for being European street-legal which you need for any significant rallying or influential support.

It should be cheaper, don't know if you saw this video but it could become more of a thing. In 10 years time why would anybody be building a brand new 15 year old car for the privateer? It doesn't make sense.


Rich Millener on side-by-sides: 'I personally think a modified version of this could be the answer to the problems in rally of entry level vehicles'

https://youtu.be/1xsKjcptLjc?t=785

[Kenneth]

To the topic if private tuners can carry the championship - of course they can. Dakar/W2RC basically works like that. Dacia is Prodrive, which run their own team even before Renault entered, Toyota is Overdrive, Mini is X-Raid, and many of other cars without manufacturers' backing is there too. etc. etc. There always were and always will be bunch of privateers, full factory teams were really an exeption.

And as it was already mentioned in this thread, there were many attempts to build a rally car from private tuners, that ended on the need of manufacturer backed homologation.

[deephouse]

I think that Toyota is running official Dakar/W2RC program with Toyota Gazoo Racing South Africa and not Overdrive. Hilux is there for like million years already and they sell those cars to many privateers. How many rally1 cars are out there owned by privateers. I can only think about two and both by M-Sport. Also don't get why old spec WRC cars can't compete in WRC. Are they afraid that those cars would beat the "newest machines"? Also there is more or less open classes and not so strict about everything, that's why there are so many entries. Also it adds up, that "SUV" trend around the globe and amongst almost all brands are favourable here.

[wyler]

To the topic if private tuners can carry the championship - of course they can. Dakar/W2RC basically works like that. Dacia is Prodrive, which run their own team even before Renault entered, Toyota is Overdrive, Mini is X-Raid, and many of other cars without manufacturers' backing is there too. etc. etc. There always were and always will be bunch of privateers, full factory teams were really an exeption.

And as it was already mentioned in this thread, there were many attempts to build a rally car from private tuners, that ended on the need of manufacturer backed homologation.

mmm "without manufacture's backing" is a long shot, I think it's far from reality. nonetheless, we have m-sport example of a privateer not much backed by many and we all see how it is struggling...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

To the topic if private tuners can carry the championship - of course they can. Dakar/W2RC basically works like that. Dacia is Prodrive, which run their own team even before Renault entered, Toyota is Overdrive, Mini is X-Raid, and many of other cars without manufacturers' backing is there too. etc. etc. There always were and always will be bunch of privateers, full factory teams were really an exeption.

And as it was already mentioned in this thread, there were many attempts to build a rally car from private tuners, that ended on the need of manufacturer backed homologation.

But this is the DNA of rallying. The Manufacturer provided the car and the tuners ran it. Without the Manufacturer (homologated) car there was no car.

WRC and all rallying would have to change completely for cars to be built and run completely by private teams.

Rallying using all kinds of non-road car based vehicles just isn't the same.

[deephouse]

I think that M-Sport would do just fine if not the best, if there would be no manufacturer direct involvement. As mentioned. Manufacturer would provide a car, tuner would build the racing beast, and manufacturer would homologate it. No fancy tents and busses of people just walking up and down service park with no real impact on racing outcome.

[saco0o]

if it wasnt for the homologation thing, the FIA (and promoters, for obvious reasons) wanting MANUFACTURERS PAYING HUGE FEES to compete and the Need for it ''to be a road legal car to travel between stages", cheaper stuff like this
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AqXOcluzkNQ would be EXCELLENT for entry levels and national championships (maybe even Rally2?) apparently it costs less than 100K, 400hp 4wd ICE - even cheaper if you build a less powerfull engine.
...AND, if you are a manufacturer, you could just switch the front and back bumpers for it to resemble you car. have a yaris fron grill and rear lights, well... "it is a toyota" ISH haha im half joking, ok? but at the same time ehhhh..... dodge did that in US when that championship was going on, for example.
brought a sticker, called it "dodge" and got thousand of eye-balls on your instagram posts about the car.
Its 2025, nothing makes sense anymore

[WRCStan]

mmm "without manufacture's backing" is a long shot, I think it's far from reality. nonetheless, we have m-sport example of a privateer not much backed by many and we all see how it is struggling...

Also from the championship's start in 2022 to now, there were 6, 4, 4 then 3 manufacturers competing, Toyota, Dacia and Ford; and that's across all categories. Neither Mini or the independent builders are there and there's no series-production requirement in T1/Ultimate. Maybe the small teams could carry the cup but once it moved to championship status and the fees had to be paid to a promoter, things changed. I don't know how the cup was, but the drivers championship has registration fees that WRC privateers don't have to pay because the manufacturers face the burden. Only 4 drivers competed all 5 rounds last year... I don't see what's worth copying.

[wyler]

Manufacturer would provide a car, tuner would build the racing beast, and manufacturer would homologate it. .

I'm confused... that's how it worked till now

[denkimi]

I think that M-Sport would do just fine if not the best, if there would be no manufacturer direct involvement. As mentioned. Manufacturer would provide a car, tuner would build the racing beast, and manufacturer would homologate it. No fancy tents and busses of people just walking up and down service park with no real impact on racing outcome.
The "manufacturer homologate it" is the issue here. From a sporting or technical view, there is no need for that. It exists only to make money for the FIA.

You can just create a set of technical rules, and everyone who conforms to those rules is allowed to start. Kinda like in every other technical sport.

[saco0o]

The "manufacturer homologate it" is the issue here. From a sporting or technical view, there is no need for that. It exists only to make money for the FIA.

You can just create a set of technical rules, and everyone who conforms to those rules is allowed to start. Kinda like in every other technical sport.

but you cant travel between stages on a generic hatchback, for example. the police can stop you and arrest the car because its not 'road legal'.
unless theres some kind of deal with EU and the overseas countries. that sounds like an expensive bribery :/

[Kenneth]

but you cant travel between stages on a generic hatchback

Of course you can. Being road legal have nothing to do with manufacturers, otherwise there wouldn't be any new car brands or one-off cars.

[saco0o]

Of course you can. Being road legal have nothing to do with manufacturers, otherwise there wouldn't be any new car brands or one-off cars.

but BRANDs and new CARS from A BRAND is different from a spaceframe tube with generic body pannels / aerokit, no? like... "Sir. what is this car you are driving on the road?" - "Its a Oreca build spaceframe" ...not sure its the same thing haha
im not from europe, so no idea how stuff would work. here in south america you would have to bribe governments and police officers the whole weekend

Edit: hmm sure, special permits and authorizations, sure. it took me some hours to think about that hehe

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC Commission considers "refinements" to 2027 regulation reforms:

https://x.com/RallyingUK/status/1920837463855026304

[Kenneth]

but BRANDs and new CARS from A BRAND is different from a spaceframe tube with generic body pannels / aerokit, no? like... "Sir. what is this car you are driving on the road?" - "Its a Oreca build spaceframe" ...not sure its the same thing haha

So what's a difference between "Oreca built spaceframe" and "M-Sport built spaceframe, but it kinda looks like Ford".

[saco0o]

So what's a difference between "Oreca built spaceframe" and "M-Sport built spaceframe, but it kinda looks like Ford".

yep, u got me.
do they get special permits for public roads? or the fact it "is a ford puma" makes it legal? if its a total generic car, can they have permits that are not mega expensive?

[WRCStan]

yep, u got me.
do they get special permits for public roads? or the fact it "is a ford puma" makes it legal? if its a total generic car, can they have permits that are not mega expensive?

This is a loaded question. The permit itself shouldn't be expensive in the grand scheme of things, perhaps having the staff to do it all would be.

In the UK should be similar to EU, anyone can build a car at home and get it approved for road use but it has to be inspected at a cost to check it meets minimum standards. A manufacturer can produce up to 500* vehicles per year this way but each individual car built must be inspected. I imagine this is what the kind of outfit we're discussing would do

Or, mass-manufacturers can go for type approval, meaning only one gets inspected in theory, and they then make however many identical cars. But really everything about the manufacturing process is inspected, this requires a lot of effort, documentation and a lot tougher standards of safety, emissions this kind of thing.

A spaceframe rally Puma, whoever built it, would be seen as a completely different vehicle to normal production Puma, as it doesn't conform to the type approval standard. It's just shared branding. Kenneth is right, there's no difference between Ford or Oreca spaceframe cars.


*I've read 300 elsewhere from the same Government agency that does it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

We all know the spaceframe Rally1 Cars aren't based on a road car shell. But each one has been made by a Manufacturer (or virtual with Ford/MSport) and are clearly designed to be / resemble a Puma, Yaris or i20.

The issue would be what an Oreca made car would look like and what if any manufacturer car it would resemble ? If no Manufacturer panels are used who would fund it ? And do we want to see anonymous 'coild be anything' vehicles representing the top of rallying ?

[Kenneth]

Iirc the scrapped 27 ruleset said that the Rally1 still has to resemble a road car (no matter if it's hatchback, sedan, suv or even a concept), so that's not really an issue. The difference is that they don't need an approval from manufacturer.

Imo that will open doors for support from local dealer / manufacturer branch. Paddon have enough support from Hyundai NZ to build various cars, that will never be FIA homologated because there is no support from Hyundai. Now that won't matter.

[saco0o]

Iirc the scrapped 27 ruleset said that the Rally1 still has to resemble a road car (no matter if it's hatchback, sedan, suv or even a concept), so that's not really an issue. The difference is that they don't need an approval from manufacturer.

Imo that will open doors for support from local dealer / manufacturer branch. Paddon have enough support from Hyundai NZ to build various cars, that will never be FIA homologated because there is no support from Hyundai. Now that won't matter.

could that work? like, would mitsubishi be ok if i start a wrc team with a eclipsecross, for example? no need to authotize me?
that would be super interesting and it would solve all problems tbf. literally haha
spaceframe, body pannel from ANY car. they can even have something like "it gotta be one of the top 5 most selled cars from the brand over the last 3 years" (OR NOT, so we could have old school cars body pannels with modern engineering ??????)

[WRCStan]

Iirc the scrapped 27 ruleset said that the Rally1 still has to resemble a road car (no matter if it's hatchback, sedan, suv or even a concept), so that's not really an issue. The difference is that they don't need an approval from manufacturer.

Imo that will open doors for support from local dealer / manufacturer branch. Paddon have enough support from Hyundai NZ to build various cars, that will never be FIA homologated because there is no support from Hyundai. Now that won't matter.

If you think that Paddon car will be called a Hyundai then that is absolutely not going to happen without Hyundai entering as a manufacturer. There's no real distinction between HMSG and Hyundai NZ; the make will be Hyundai regardless. There's no free ride for any manufacturers and never will be.


We all know the spaceframe Rally1 Cars aren't based on a road car shell. But each one has been made by a Manufacturer (or virtual with Ford/MSport) and are clearly designed to be / resemble a Puma, Yaris or i20.

The issue would be what an Oreca made car would look like and what if any manufacturer car it would resemble ? If no Manufacturer panels are used who would fund it ? And do we want to see anonymous 'coild be anything' vehicles representing the top of rallying ?

What the rules do allow for is bespoke designs, so an Oreca car will be a bespoke Oreca design and will be funded by the privateer market, likely with Oreca being forced to enter the championship as a manufacturer for the privilege of their cars being eligible for the championship.

Remember the McRae R4 for a bespoke design?


could that work? like, would mitsubishi be ok if i start a wrc team with a eclipsecross, for example? no need to authotize me?
that would be super interesting and it would solve all problems tbf. literally haha
spaceframe, body pannel from ANY car. they can even have something like "it gotta be one of the top 5 most selled cars from the brand over the last 3 years" (OR NOT, so we could have old school cars body pannels with modern engineering ??????)

Adding to the above, you cannot take a brand and apply it to your own products without approval.

[skarderud]

I think a official importer can, with agreement from the manufacturer of course, run a "importerbased" team as i brand. But they dont need the homologation from a manufacturer to do it if its a base spaceframe chassis approved from FIA that is allowed to use between stages.

To be honest, its obvious that no manufacturers (exept Toyota) is interested in WRC these days, so its quite easy: open the rules for other teams or let it die.

I really dont see a manufacturer deny a official importer make a rallycar, they both get exposure without official involvment, they can put some money into the team without complicit theire green politics, they can sell the electric cars and let the people that don't know belive the brand is all green.
It's a win-win-win consept.

Maybe not for FIA that cant have big fees for enter the championship, but i really don't feel sorry for those guys.

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[deephouse]

What about those Lancia's who burned everything down (and almost the whole championship) from WorldRX. I know it's completely different. What car were they based on under "official" delta skin. And how do they get approval from manufacturer or FIA to compete at the top level.

[Kenneth]

What about those Lancia's who burned everything down (and almost the whole championship) from WorldRX. I know it's completely different. What car were they based on under "official" delta skin. And how do they get approval from manufacturer or FIA to compete at the top level.

In RX it's a bit different. You can make a RX car from any chassis that was ever homologated by FIA (I'm not sure right now if it's just Group A or literally anything, but that's not important right now). Doesn't matter what was inside or outside the car, it just need to use homologated chassis.

As Lancia Delta Evo was of course homologated at some point, they could have build a RX car out of it.

Same reason why there is Skoda or Hyundai cars in RX althrough neither of the brands were involved.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Andreas Bakkerud's team just built an RX 'Ford Puma' for the Norwegian Championship, with no connection to Ford or MSport. This is a converted road car shell but I guess the same principle applies... just pick a car you like and fit its panels to the spaceframe, no need to have it endorsed by its manufacturer ?

[PLuto]

Andreas Bakkerud's team just built an RX 'Ford Puma' for the Norwegian Championship, with no connection to Ford or MSport. This is a converted road car shell but I guess the same principle applies... just pick a car you like and fit its panels to the spaceframe, no need to have it endorsed by its manufacturer ?

But this car is competing only on closed circuit. It never goes on normal roads.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The FIA intends for the next set of World Rally Championship regulations to become the backbone of championships all over the world, not just the WRC....

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/2027-cars-designed-not-just-for-wrc/

[becher]

Only the spaceframe, everything to hang on it isn't specified, much like Rally1 but considerably cheaper using Rally2 level parts.

If I take a Ford Focus, gut it to a bare shell and fit a different drive line, suspension and change some cosmetic body panels is it still a Ford Focus?

[WRCStan]

If I take a Ford Focus, gut it to a bare shell and fit a different drive line, suspension and change some cosmetic body panels is it still a Ford Focus?

Assuming you kept the VIN plate; yes.

[Kenneth]

If I take a Ford Focus, gut it to a bare shell and fit a different drive line, suspension and change some cosmetic body panels is it still a Ford Focus?

well isn't it the way rally works for last 25 years??

[becher]

well isn't it the way rally works for last 25 years??

It did until Rally1, but that is besides the point. If the new regulations bring along a spec chassis everyone will use the same car with a few different bits.

[saco0o]

opel showing their electric rally4 car made me think about fia saying they will re-design the rally pyramid. rally4s (lancia, ice opel, electric opel, msport, peugeot, renault...) as the 'lites' and space framed rally2 as the top class?

[Andre Oliveira]

The car is eRally5, not Rally4.

[saco0o]

The car is eRally5, not Rally4.

ah but they are claming its on pair with rally4 (performance)... so since they are changing the whole rally pyramid for 27, why not? https://dirtfish.com/rally/first-fia-spec-electric-rally-car-revealed-by-opel/
im not the biggest "rally3" fan. in ERC they run some renault clios in rally4 too, so idk... I'd go this way, maybe? cuz thats 5 brands already

[Maui J.]

[QUOTE=WRCStan;1362564]If you think that Paddon car will be called a Hyundai then that is absolutely not going to happen without Hyundai entering as a manufacturer. There's no real distinction between HMSG and Hyundai NZ; the make will be Hyundai regardless. There's no free ride for any manufacturers and never will be.

But with the rules relaxed without the homologation part, then Paddon should be able to run Hyundai cars without Hyundai's approval. He obviously won't be able to call it the Hyundai WRC team but will have to use Paddon WRC Team, or similar, instead.
Hopefully, this new rule with encourage other tuners to do a similar thing. And who knows if these private teams do well with new brands, they might start receiving manufacturer support. We can no longer wait for the big brands to bring a new team to the WRC. This new rule is the way forward.

[WRCStan]

But with the rules relaxed without the homologation part, then Paddon should be able to run Hyundai cars without Hyundai's approval. He obviously won't be able to call it the Hyundai WRC team but will have to use Paddon WRC Team, or similar, instead.
Hopefully, this new rule with encourage other tuners to do a similar thing. And who knows if these private teams do well with new brands, they might start receiving manufacturer support. We can no longer wait for the big brands to bring a new team to the WRC. This new rule is the way forward.

However it goes with team names and FIA homologation rules; intellectual property laws in most countries say if he builds a car to his own design he cannot call it a Hyundai make car without approval and support from Hyundai.

Then, if he does end up driving a Hyundai car however and whoever built it; something significant would have to change to the WRC commercial model that's been in place since 1993(?) that says if Hyundai want exposure through the championship, they're going to have to pay for it. I don't see what the sustainable change would be or what the reason for it is.

But why are you looking to appease Hyundai and the likes? The Surveilled Urban Vehicle manufacturers and stage rallying needs are de-linking. I think more likely to happen is; Paddonsport builds the Paddonsport Rally1.5 and enters the Paddonsport WRT (investment), which are necessary steps in order to sell Paddonsport Rally1.5s into the privateer rallying market (profit). There's your manufacturer and marque - Paddonsport; there's your commercial model, incentives, rewards, reasons for relaxing homologation. What's missed? Maybe Hyundai sponsor Paddonsport WRT and stick the logo on the side and announce a "strategic partnership", that's irrelevence.

Maybe Toyota do it all themselves not to sell Rally cars but their brand. Maybe Prodrive team up with Mini and go 50:50 strategy. It is pretty open. Teams would probably be acceptable too, as somebody like Prodrive will do the minimum 1 year commitment for approval to sell. So "Team Portugal" may be driving the Prodrive Pender, that's how you'd get the double-digit number of teams.

[WRCStan]

WRC27 takes shape as regulations open to huge variety of bodywork designs

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/styles/content_details/public/7a394c47-1ff2-59f2-1259-38648d8b7a61.png?itok=0GxLRUEV

The World Council today approved one of the final pieces of the compelling puzzle that is coming together to mark the start of a brand-new era for the FIA World Rally Championship from 2027.

The WRC27 ruleset, given the green light by the World Council in December 2024, has been undergoing its final refinements and updates over the past six months, and today the confirmation of the reference volumes for bodywork cements the commitment set out by the FIA to put flexibility at the core of these regulations.

To achieve this, the rules define a zone in which all of the bodywork panels must be located, but within this volume, manufacturers and constructors have the freedom to scale and integrate almost any design.

This crucial feature of the regulations means that, without effecting performance, cars ranging from saloons to hatchbacks, cross-overs and completely bespoke designs could be entered over the ten-year regulation cycle through to 2037.

https://www.fia.com/news/milestones-set-world-motor-sport-council-macau

[skarderud]

I would prefer Rally2's, but we know the production of fiesta is already ended, and the fabia is close.

This could be a step in right direction, if they also open up for semi-or nonmanufacturer homologation.

Personally i don't think Rally2's are slow and boring, but its need to be driven in anger, everything driven in anger can be spectacular in my opinion.

Take a look at Royal rally (erc) last weekend, its really good racing!

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[saco0o]

"Autosport understands at least two tuners are actively working on projects."
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fia-approves-updated-bodywork-rules-for-wrc-2027-regulations-/10731302/

[WRCStan]

Autosport also says the Rally2 engine will be used, so where are these independent tuners getting their mass-produced Group A engines?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I still dont buy it.

If M-Sport decide to build a 'Ford Puma' version of a '27 Reg car and Toyota build a version of their Yaris or Corolla to the new Regs, which new manufacturer or tuner will believe they can build a car to beat them ?

The recent top rally experience these Teams have is huge and in Toyota's case they have vast resources too. Trying to compete with them, let alone beat them, will be a thankless task for anyone.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hyundai still not happy with the 2027 Regs and Abiteboul suggests that they're biased in favour of tuners ?!

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/hyundai-set-to-stay-in-wrc-for-2026-question-marks-remain-for-2027/10730002/

[TypeR]

Hyundai will agree if they can keep to use rally1 cars...

while Ford and Toyota must use rally2 cars..

[WRCStan]

I still dont buy it.

If M-Sport decide to build a 'Ford Puma' version of a '27 Reg car and Toyota build a version of their Yaris or Corolla to the new Regs, which new manufacturer or tuner will believe they can build a car to beat them ?

The recent top rally experience these Teams have is huge and in Toyota's case they have vast resources too. Trying to compete with them, let alone beat them, will be a thankless task for anyone.

Don't forget this car also replaces Rally2 until 2037, that market is huge so there are other incentives.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Don't forget this car also replaces Rally2 until 2037, that market is huge so there are other incentives.

Fair point.

And maybe M-Sport and Toyota would just build the new cars to sell or hire to any individual or team who wants one. No more Manufacturer team entries.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota's Tom Fowler has his say and seems to confirm Toyota will be in 2027 with an official team car entry.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-wrc-2027-is-a-golden-opportunity-for-privateers/

[saco0o]

so the tubeframe construction will become a good business opportunity in rallying, right? dallara can start building tubeframes to sell to anyone, for example. good

can other brands (illmor, cosworth, judd...?) start building 1.6l turbo engines to sell or these 'rally2' engines are restricted to some homologated road models? im asking because idk how that works. theres no infos out there, sure, but some of you usually have more infos than what i can find on articles

[deephouse]

Only one real team in WRC, still. Toyota accepting everything FIA throws at them. Hyundai (again) whining and try to change to their liking, but we all know they will leave anyway (just making excuses, so they don't look bad at the end), and M-Sport being just there (if), of course still the most loyal team.

Also I'm rooting for Skoda - they actualy build crossover concept car based on rally2 fabia tech. It could be, that they are playing with stick in the water...

Then Subaru. They announced that they will probably build next WRX car or something, so it could be their opportunity to showcase it the proper way...

And then Lancia. If thing will be really ''this cheap'', why not. I think that they could convince Stellantis bosses to enter the stages as they should.

For tuners I don't know. Only one comes to mind is Prodrive... And Paddon with his team, which showed some interest.

[RS]

Will these new cars still have the silly aero from Rally 1s?

[RS]

I still dont buy it.

If M-Sport decide to build a 'Ford Puma' version of a '27 Reg car and Toyota build a version of their Yaris or Corolla to the new Regs, which new manufacturer or tuner will believe they can build a car to beat them ?

The recent top rally experience these Teams have is huge and in Toyota's case they have vast resources too. Trying to compete with them, let alone beat them, will be a thankless task for anyone.

I can see these regs bringing in more manufacturers but maybe not private tuners. Who’s going to pay for it? The reason private teams can exist in F1 is that there is prize money, which I believe isn’t the case in WRC.

[WRCStan]

can other brands (illmor, cosworth, judd...?) start building 1.6l turbo engines to sell or these 'rally2' engines are restricted to some homologated road models? im asking because idk how that works. theres no infos out there, sure, but some of you usually have more infos than what i can find on articles

We need more official info, there's been next to none whether it's Rally2 or otherwise.

I think they should liberate it to the smaller builders, given the mass-production manufacturers have been told to stop producing them. And if they do start looking at EV tech, should that be expected to be production based? Unlikely. The hybrid kit from Compact Dynamics wasn't used elsewhere either.

[Steve Boyd]

so the tubeframe construction will become a good business opportunity in rallying, right? dallara can start building tubeframes to sell to anyone, for example. good

can other brands (illmor, cosworth, judd...?) start building 1.6l turbo engines to sell or these 'rally2' engines are restricted to some homologated road models? im asking because idk how that works. theres no infos out there, sure, but some of you usually have more infos than what i can find on articlesEngine homologation is based on use in series production road cars, but it is possible to homologate just the engine for use in things like F3 racing where the cars have to have a road car based engine. The full lists of FIA homologations are detailed on this page https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/760. If you look at the lists you will see some are shown "Homologation Valid Only for Engine".

This spaceframe formula might give Hyundai a way to get out of building & entering WRC cars but staying in the championship by letting Paddon build & enter them.

[WRCStan]

Engine homologation is based on use in series production road cars, but it is possible to homologate just the engine for use in things like F3 racing where the cars have to have a road car based engine. The full lists of FIA homologations are detailed on this page https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/760. If you look at the lists you will see some are shown "Homologation Valid Only for Engine".

But nothing to say yet that this will carry on to WRC27.


This spaceframe formula might give Hyundai a way to get out of building & entering WRC cars but staying in the championship by letting Paddon build & enter them.

How is WRC27 different to anything that came prior? Such as the M-Sport and Ford relationship. Several people have said this now but AFAICS, there's nothing new.

[JRodrigues]

Then Subaru. They announced that they will probably build next WRX car or something, so it could be their opportunity to showcase it the proper way...



https://img.bestcarweb.jp/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/01102110/IMG_7830.jpg

[JRodrigues]

This looks likes it's going the same way WR2C is atm, and I'm not against that if that's something similar.

[saco0o]

the ex ford europe guy said the new regs are not interesting
https://x.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/1932514123532664950

but again, the reactions are always "yes, wrc is moving away from road cars, thats not what rally should be all about". i dont have twitter, for those who have: go and ask these fellas "which modern relevant road car you want in wrc right now?" - cuz i bet its going to be the same answers i got on facebook: "nah, current road cars are ugly suvs with hybrid engines, i hate those"
so... what do they want? what do 'WE' want? even among the most hardcore fans there isnt a vision. each one of us want something related to our memory or to our visual likes

edit: my best interaction on fb about this so far was someone saying wrc need to use road cars, then I asked 'which car? a suv?' then he said 'yes but down-scaled like the puma', then I said "but you can only re-escale a car if it is a tubeframe', then he told me to 'grow up and stop arguing on the internet'

racing fans are getting hard to understand hehe (myself included, for sure lol)

[saco0o]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-wrc-2027-is-a-golden-opportunity-for-privateers/
Toyota technical director Tom Fowler

“Look at this really simplistically. Right now, I don’t have a ’27 car. But a Škoda Rally2 car exists and has been driving for more than a decade in different forms. So, when we get to the Safari Rally in 2027, I wouldn’t bet that a car which doesn’t exist today has a better chance of getting to the end faster compared with one which has already done this event and existed for more than a decade – and has the same technical and performance specification"

weird thing for a toyota guy to say but ok lol
good to know some insider guy saying 'wrc27 and r5s will be on the same level', cuz i still had my doubts. thats good. it keeps those thousand of cars still competing for a little longer! (before more and more teams and racers buy/build the wrc27 car)

[Sulland]

345k € for the new car, and then ++ for all you need in addition to make a full season on loose and asphalt.

How much is a new Rally2 and how much is a ++ package for that one?

Do not think 345 000 € opens up for many privateers. Not that easy to get sponsors for a full WRC season these days.

More and more crews goes to ERC where The Rally2s are top dog, and less travel cost compared to WRC.

Maybe a Rally2+ still is the best option long term?

[WRCStan]

Is this question basically just bodyshell v space frame now? What's the description of Rally2 and Rally2+ that will be developed, approved and brought to the stages in 2034?

[skarderud]

Main problem is that the fiesta isn't produced anymore, and the fabia is soon to end without a successor.

No one is interested in suv's in motorsport, and i dont see manufacturers build ice Rally2's out of electric roadcars eighter.

So, if we like it or not, a standard spaceframe is the path.

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[wyler]

345k € for the new car, and then ** for all you need in addition to make a full season on loose and asphalt.

How much is a new Rally2 and how much is a ++ package for that one?

Do not think 345 000 € opens up for many privateers. Not that easy to get sponsors for a full WRC season these days.

More and more crews goes to ERC where The Rally2s are top dog, and less travel cost compared to WRC.

Maybe a Rally2+ still is the best option long term?

i don't see a lot of wrc people going to erc. i see the opposite more, erc to wrc2. (franceschi, koronen, etc)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Sadly the spaceframe plus chosen body panels is the only answer. There's just no suitable road cars coming along for a Rally2 or Rally2+ version. The GR Yaris is the last of the kind.

But the €345,000 cost of the 2027 Regs car doesn't work - the factory teams say it's too low to build and run and for the privateers it's still too high.

[skarderud]

Yes, its to expensive, but how is it possible to make it cheaper?

The parts and design is one thing, the construction and development is another part of it.

And, is the future of rallying even suitable for manufacturer teams?

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