Citroen WRT

[AnttiL]

Gonna need a bit more than fresh wheels and a wash...

[TypeR]

Lappi's car after Argentina

[im]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5PlGChXkAIvcbF.jpg[/img]

some polishing and decals and it's ready for mad max style rally chile

[itix]

Gonna need a bit more than fresh wheels and a wash...I heard the commentators say yesterday they were flying a whole new car in for Chile.
I can't see Lappi possibly get a renewal for his contract for 2020 unless something magic happens.

[deephouse]

I heard the commentators say yesterday they were flying a whole new car in for Chile.
I can't see Lappi possibly get a renewal for his contract for 2020 unless something magic happens.

Renewal? Why would they renew contracts if they will leave anyway.

[itix]

Renewal? Why would they renew contracts if they will leave anyway.They won't leave for 2020... 2021 perhaps if the regulations won't include hybrid.
Ogier has a two year contract with Citroen.

[deephouse]

They won't leave for 2020... 2021 perhaps if the regulations won't include hybrid.
Ogier has a two year contract with Citroen.

As long as I know VW was telling the whole world they would stay in the sport for a couple of years. Then boom, they dissapear from horizon. And I'm pretty sure some of them 3 had contracts for another year. And Citroen with Meeke's contract. Hyundai with theirs. What does that tell you.

Never say never. If Linda person say they can be out immediately, no matter for how long will Ogier cry.

[itix]

As long as I know VW was telling the whole world they would stay in the sport for a couple of years. Then boom, they dissapear from horizon. And I'm pretty sure some of them 3 had contracts for another year. And Citroen with Meeke's contract. Hyundai with theirs. What does that tell you.

Never say never. If Linda person say they can be out immediately, no matter for how long will Ogier cry.You have literally zero hard facts to support that so let's just go with what we know ok?
Everything indicates that Citroen will stay on for next year and I'd be surprised if I find Lappi in that team.

They put up with Kris for an awfully long time, but he had pace at least. Lappi has struggled to get past 5th this year.

[pantealex]

Lappi also has 2 years deal but nothing is certain as we know.

[Barreis]

They won't leave for 2020... 2021 perhaps if the regulations won't include hybrid.
Ogier has a two year contract with Citroen.

2+1 for Ogier

[mknight]

They put up with Kris for an awfully long time, but he had pace at least. Lappi has struggled to get past 5th this year.

Lappi finished 2nd in his second rally with the car (guess you forgot?). Sure with a large bit of luck after that near roll on Friday.

Also here he was quite fast before crashing (discarding the stage with puncture). Anyway I don't see him getting fired before the end of the year with the current situation on the driver market. They could use Østberg on some gravel rally, but Lappi is usually good on same types of rallies as Østberg is.

[Allez Andruet]

Lappi better up his game. Seriously. The whole gameplan of 2019 for Citroen was to have two strong drivers so Seb II could focus on retaining the crown while Lappi would block vital points from other title contenders.

On the other hand, this is not 1997 when Armin Schwarz could be sacked in favor of Juha Kankkunen after six rallies.

[Norm75]

Lappi better up his game. Seriously. The whole gameplan of 2019 for Citroen was to have two strong drivers so Seb II could focus on retaining the crown while Lappi would block vital points from other title contenders.

On the other hand, this is not 1997 when Armin Schwarz could be sacked in favor of Juha Kankkunen after six rallies.

No, it's not even a year after Citroen sacked Meeke in favour of Mads Ostberg.

[mknight]

No, it's not even a year after Citroen sacked Meeke in favour of Mads Ostberg.

I'd say they sacked Meeke to spare funds and use them for development (with Loeb) to attract Ogier. Which they managed.

[Norm75]

I'd say they sacked Meeke to spare funds and use them for development (with Loeb) to attract Ogier. Which they managed.

Either way, my point being not much difference from 1997-2018.

[Allez Andruet]

Either way, my point being not much difference from 1997-2018.

I think you're cutting corners there. Case Meeke was a different story altogether (with bad PR, high hopes turned into failure, not even mentioning the driver profile). In 1997 (not that it would be that relevant in this topic, but anyway) there were likes of Kankkunen, Thiry and Vatanen on the sidelines without a contract, and bunch of rookies like Grönholm and Rådström waiting to be signed by someone. Now there probably isn't anyone other than Breen, who would have absolutely zero contractual obligations towards competing teams (and Östberg ofcourse in case of Citroen).

[Norm75]

I stand by my last comment, not much difference between 1997-2018.
1997-2019 however, maybe a little different, but you can trust Citroen?

[AnttiL]

I'd say they sacked Meeke to spare funds and use them for development (with Loeb) to attract Ogier. Which they managed.

I think another important point was to get rid of their number one driver to send a clear message to the big bosses that they need a new one. Anyway, it's quite far-fetched to say they sacked Meeke in favour of Østberg. He would have driven some rallies anyway and now just got more of them.

[itix]

Lappi finished 2nd in his second rally with the car (guess you forgot?). Sure with a large bit of luck after that near roll on Friday.

Also here he was quite fast before crashing (discarding the stage with puncture). Anyway I don't see him getting fired before the end of the year with the current situation on the driver market. They could use Østberg on some gravel rally, but Lappi is usually good on same types of rallies as Østberg is.Yeah all right... Except for fast sisu oriented rallies he has struggled to get past 5th this year.

[Norm75]

I think another important point was to get rid of their number one driver to send a clear message to the big bosses that they need a new one. Anyway, it's quite far-fetched to say they sacked Meeke in favour of Østberg. He would have driven some rallies anyway and now just got more of them.

How is that far fetched. Fact is they sacked Meeke. They then put Ostberg in the car, be it because there were no one else available or not, he was still favoured to drive the car rather than retain Meeke.

[Allez Andruet]

How is that far fetched.
Because the decision was to ditch Meeke, not to make room for Østberg to have more rallies.

[AnttiL]

Besides, I think Breen also got more rallies (at least Catalunya) because Meeke was gone.

[Norm75]

Because the decision was to ditch Meeke, not to make room for Østberg to have more rallies.

Didn't say they ditched meeke to make room for Ostberg, merely they favoured him in the car. That was a by product of sacking meeke

[Allez Andruet]

Didn't say they ditched meeke to make room for Ostberg, merely they favoured him in the car. That was a by product of sacking meeke

And that's exactly why it would be far-fetched to say Meeke was sacked in favour of Østberg.

[Norm75]

Ah ok.
In that case, I must be in a parallel universe, where Citroen didn't sack Meeke and Ostberg didn't drive the remaining rallies.

[Allez Andruet]

In that case, I must be in a parallel universe, where Citroen didn't sack Meeke and Ostberg didn't drive the remaining rallies.

Sounds like a nice place. Have fun!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Esapekka Lappi has the full backing of Citroen Racing boss Pierre Budar ahead of Rally Chile: https://t.co/7J0Q3LeDy6

[er88]

Oh..., a dreaded vote of confidence already.

[Crazy J]

Raising likelihood of seeing Ostberg competing in WRC main category rallies this season?

[racerx1979]

You have to admit, Ostberg was fairly consistent and rarely binned the car... every team could use an Ostberg or Sordo for consistent points.

[er88]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/143123/ogier-urges-citroen-to-make-c3-wrc-changes

Hardly a surprise. Least Citroen are listening to him from the get go ;)

[Rally Power]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/143123/ogier-urges-citroen-to-make-c3-wrc-changes

He said the same when he joined MSport and didn’t rest until the car was improved (Portugal 2017). Ogier is always successfully pushing the teams around him to be more competitive; that’s one of his talents.

[Rally Power]

Nice doc, provided by Total, giving an insight view of Citroen’s pre season work and MC win: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFrNTfZtxCQ

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Craig Breen testing a C3 R5 in Sardinia ?!

https://twitter.com/SmnSpn1/status/1129718261455695872

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Another mistake by Lappi, rolling the C3 in Portugal. He must be under big pressure now.

I wonder if Citroen are considering a replacement yet or 3rd car to support Ogier ?

[Allez Andruet]

Another mistake by Lappi, rolling the C3 in Portugal. He must be under big pressure now.

I wonder if Citroen are considering a replacement yet or 3rd car to support Ogier ?

If things haven't radically changed, they still don't have the budget to run a third car. So if something is changed, it would have to be to switch Lappi for someone else for x amount of rallies. I'd say the next two races are absolutely crucial for Esapekka. In both Sardegna and Finland he should be really strong, if anywhere. Good results from those rallies and everything should be ok for the rest of the season, I think. But... if he yet again fails to deliver in either one (or both), then it will get really tricky for mr. Budar. It's no secret that they have Östberg in the roster already and he knows the car and would probably be more than willing to play the support role if needed.

[mknight]

For me he is still under less pressure than those two at Toyota that have not managed a podium in 7 rallies. After all he was 2nd in his 2nd rally in the car.

Citroen have no real goal for him this year, except help Ogier by taking points off rivals, which he did at least in Sweden.

That said the situation with Østberg who still works for Citroen is somewhat special and it is possible that Østberg might drive in Finland, but maybe even as 3rd car and they decide on further starts afterwards.

[mknight]

Btw. note that Linda Jackson was visiting the team in Portugal, so that might mean more money.

[Allez Andruet]

For me he is still under less pressure than those two at Toyota that have not managed a podium in 7 rallies. After all he was 2nd in his 2nd rally in the car.

Citroen have no real goal for him this year, except help Ogier by taking points off rivals, which he did at least in Sweden.


In other words, out of seven rallies, he's done his job properly in one. Not exactly what you would expect from a guy who won his fourth ever rally in a World Rally Car.

And I love Lappi, I really do, but it's June now and that Swedish highlight is long gone.

[pantealex]

Meeke had more points with Citroen last year than Lappi has now...

[TypeR]

so far it seems, that Lappi is running 2nd and also the 3rd car by himself.. considering the repairing costs :D
but really, hope he can restart his mind and start driving more stable, even if it means slower times. but he needs to avoid any off-roads or stupid mistakes..

[mknight]

In other words, out of seven rallies, he's done his job properly in one. Not exactly what you would expect from a guy who won his fourth ever rally in a World Rally Car.

And I love Lappi, I really do, but it's June now and that Swedish highlight is long gone.

I am not saying he is doing good, he obviously isn't. But out of all factory drivers the ones that are without a doubt consistently doing their job are the top 3. Evans and Sordo are ok with ups and downs. All others have more downs than ups (Meeke, Latvala, Loeb, Mikkelsen, Suninen, Lappi). It's not like you can kick them all.

[Pršljen]

You just can't put all of them in the same mix. Lappi is having an awful season, it can only be compared with Latvala's who had much more bad luck than him. Mikkelsen didn't do two rallies but he accumulated bad results throughout two seasons.

Loeb? You must be joking.

Meeke was the only one until Portugal who finished all of the rallies. Not bad season at all although not great too.

And Suninen is doing pretty good so far, you can not expect miracles from him but his learning curve is going up by each rally.

[mknight]

Out of topic so just the completely off parts:


Loeb? You must be joking.

Meeke was the only one until Portugal who finished all of the rallies. Not bad season at all although not great too.

And Suninen is doing pretty good so far, you can not expect miracles from him but his learning curve is going up by each rally.
Loeb - 2 good rallies (Monte, Chile), 3 bad (Sweden last WRC no teampoints; Corsica 2 crashes, slowest Hyundai, no team points; Portugal 9th when technical issues hit, slowest Hyundai all weekend, crash on PS for no reason)
Meeke - 4 crashes in last 4 rallies, one 4th place as best result, 1 good rally (Arg) , 1 ok (Mexico) 5 bad.
Suninen - 4 crashes in first 3 rallies, no pace in Argentina, 2 ok rallies (Chile, Portugal)

For the others it's:
Latvala - 1 (even that is questionable) / 6
Lappi - 1/6
Mikkelsen - 2/3
All have more bad rallies than good this
season.

[Pršljen]

Yes, but Lappi is the worst so far.

[Allez Andruet]

I am not saying he is doing good, he obviously isn't. But out of all factory drivers the ones that are without a doubt consistently doing their job are the top 3. Evans and Sordo are ok with ups and downs. All others have more downs than ups (Meeke, Latvala, Loeb, Mikkelsen, Suninen, Lappi). It's not like you can kick them all.

I don't get how it makes Lappi's situation any better if others have had bad rallies too. "Look Pierre, you can't be mad at me, Latvala and Mikkelsen have performed poorly as well". Ok, but in all seriousness, I think Lappi's situation can only be compared to those two. Whether Loeb scored any manu points in Corsica or how many times Suninen crashed in the first three rallies is totally irrelevant in this context IMO.

Bottom line: Lappi has all the tools to become a genuine title contender but no-one has unlimited amount of chances (apart from JML perhaps). It's enormously frustrating to see a talented driver waste his prime (not saying Lappi's doing that, but the early signs are there) just because he can't get his mind right.

[deephouse]

What could you expect from him if he is driving that car. (lappi, citroen)... Get real

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The issue is really that with Citroen only running two cars they really need both of their driver's to produce the goods.

Ogier needed help from Evans and Suninen to last year at M-Sport, even if it was dropping behind him sometimes if he's had an off or issue.

Lappi never seems to be in a place to help in this way, let alone taking points off Tanak or Neuville...

[dnb]

Toyota was much more suitable car for Lappi, wonder if it's possible for him to go back?

[pantealex]

Toyota was much more suitable car for Lappi, wonder if it's possible for him to go back?

1)He has 2-year deal with Citroen

2)All current Toyota drivers are currently faster than him

3)Everything is possible if...

[AnttiL]

Toyota was much more suitable car for Lappi

The team not

[EstWRC]

im reeaaaaallllyyyy curious to know what exactly was going on there between Toyota and Lappi but i have understood that you guys wont share it.



But yeah, when talking about Lappi, horrible season so far, 3 retirements out of 7 races, last in the standings out of the drivers who are doing a full season.

Last year Breen had also 34 points after 7 rounds, but the difference is that Breen had to skip two events because of Loeb whilst Lappi has done all the rounds.

I really hope he gets back on track soon, i like the dude a lot, great humour and talent, you dont win a rally only on your 4th event without talent.

But it seems he is mentally in a really bad place at the moment. All the time in a bad mood. Fingers crossed it changes.

[er88]

Problem for Lappi is Citroen are a historically hard team for drivers to fit in/feel comfortable with. McRae, Duval, Hirvonen, Mattons management of Meeke (telling him to push for wins on every rally despite the car issues) , Quesnel's management of the Ogier/Loeb fiasco that cost them numerous titles, and now Lappi.

Nobody can deny the success the team has had in the past and statistically they're the best team ever, but Loeb drove that success. This is also not the same Citroen and I don't feel Lappi will get enough love at the team - Ogier is king there atm. When Makinen went cold on Lappi, Esapekka started getting moodier and good results became harder and harder to find. That's continued at Citroen and he's not showing any real pace and still crashing - Sweden aside (although if we count Mknights logic he crashed in Sweden too).

He's clearly very naturally talented and has time on his side, but I don't trust Citroen to help or support him enough. He either has to sort himself out or he'll be in a bit of trouble given Citroen's history....

[Eli]

Problem for Lappi is Citroen are a historically hard team for drivers to fit in/feel comfortable with. McRae, Duval, Hirvonen, Mattons management of Meeke (telling him to push for wins on every rally despite the car issues) , Quesnel's management of the Ogier/Loeb fiasco that cost them numerous titles, and now Lappi.

Nobody can deny the success the team has had in the past and statistically they're the best team ever, but Loeb drove that success. This is also not the same Citroen and I don't feel Lappi will get enough love at the team - Ogier is king there atm. When Makinen went cold on Lappi, Esapekka started getting moodier and good results became harder and harder to find. That's continued at Citroen and he's not showing any real pace and still crashing - Sweden aside (although if we count Mknights logic he crashed in Sweden too).

He's clearly very naturally talented and has time on his side, but I don't trust Citroen to help or support him enough. He either has to sort himself out or he'll be in a bit of trouble given Citroen's history....

There's always room in M-Sport though, no?

[dnb]

There's always room in M-Sport though, no?

Suninen and mby Greensmith or somebody young. Or maybe even Tänak, these rumours... Evans to Toyota then?

[er88]

Msport would depend on if Evans gets poached - if Citroen go 3 cars he's an option (even an option if they dont & Lappi continues to struggle). Adamo will probably look to make changes at Hyundai with Mikkelsen not fancied for a whole season + question marks over how Sordo and Loeb can be effectively rotated. Otherwise you end up rotating 3 drivers with nobody besides Neuville getting a full season. Toyota could also be interested in Evans, maybe if Tommi thinks after three years Jari has had his time & Kalle doesn't seem ready? Meeke will be safe unless he crashes a lot and doesn't bring good results for the 2nd half of the season.

If Evans stays, Wilson said he'd only want to sign a championship challenger or words to that effect, which basically only means Tanak.

Still a long way to go, but Breen, Ostberg and Paddon will be looking to get back in, and Mikkelsen, Lappi and Jari aren't having the best of times and could be out of a drive or look to move on themselves. Jari seems to have got his performance back though which is important - he finished 2nd half of last year strong so there's no reason he can't do it again now his confidence is back.

[RS]

There's always room in M-Sport though, no?

Well Malcolm does like a Finn and seems pretty patient with his drivers. I’d take Lappi over Suninen for sure given the choice.

[Gregor-y]

There's always room in M-Sport though, no?

For the WRC if you have the cash they have the car. Can't say that about any of the others at the moment.

[Rally Power]

All this fuss around Lappi seems a bit pointless. He has a 2 year contract and Citroen is not fighting for the manus title. OK, he’s failing to help Ogier but that’s not a reason to fire him; besides it’s hard to believe that Ostberg or Breen could be helpful wingmen at this point. Anyway, in Finland (if not already in Sardinia) he’ll hopefully return to his best. Fingers crossed!

[Eli]

All this fuss around Lappi seems a bit pointless. He has a 2 year contract and Citroen is not fighting for the manus title. OK, he’s failing to help Ogier but that’s not a reason to fire him; besides it’s hard to believe that Ostberg or Breen could be helpful wing-men at this point. Anyway, in Finland (if not already in Sardinia) he’ll hopefully return to his best. Fingers crossed!

I'm not saying Lappi will (or even should) get sacked by Citroen, but ATM, if Citroen are serious to take any championship, they'll (or should I say Ogier) need better back up from Lappi for the second half of this season.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Another mistake by Lappi, rolling the C3 in Portugal. He must be under big pressure now.



Lappi confirms my thought:

https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/june-2019/lappi-pressure/page/6411--12-12-.html

[Sulland]

It is about time Citroen does a major redesign, or at least say that the C3, both WRC and R5 lacks what it takes to become a winner.

No driver till thos day have made it to his liking, setupwise. Then the procect is a flaw, when even Ogier has lost interest.

[er88]

It is about time Citroen does a major redesign, or at least say that the C3, both WRC and R5 lacks what it takes to become a winner.

No driver till thos day have made it to his liking, setupwise. Then the procect is a flaw, when even Ogier has lost interest.Yep. The problem is even by trying for years to widen the cars operating window and improve the rear on gravel (by listening to Meeke's/ Mikkelsen's/ Loeb's/ Breen's/ Ostbergs & now Ogier and Lappi's feedback) they still can't get it perfect. And to make matters worse, by improving the car on gravel to this point (which still isn't perfect), they've totally fallen behind with the car on tarmac, if Corsica is anything to go by. Even Budar admitted by trying to improve the car this year for Ogier on gravel, they've overlooked tarmac performance and it cost them badly in Corsica.

It seems like the car is just too difficult to properly tame across all surfaces...

Hopefully the next big upgrades prove us wrong, but I'll be surprised.

[EstWRC]

they have a major upgrade coming for Finland, lets see then

and they did really well last year in finland and Loeb winning in Corsica too

[Eli]

If they want that WDC. they'll have to turn that C3 around for the 6 remaining events, will be tough the toughest championship he (Ogier) ever had to win.

[Katvala]

And if they really really want to win it, then get the budget to run a third car. Not doing that is a disadvantage they have every rally.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

they have a major upgrade coming for Finland, lets see then

and they did really well last year in finland and Loeb winning in Corsica too

Catalynua ;)

[EstWRC]

Catalynua ;)

ah yes, my bad.

[Allez Andruet]

If Östberg's pace in 2018 is anything to judge by, Lappi should be really strong in Finland from that starting position.

[Eli]

If Östberg's pace in 2018 is anything to judge by, Lappi should be really strong in Finland from that starting position.

It all depends on how much they've improved the car by then, and if Lappi will adjust to it.

[wrc2017]

It all depends on how much they've improved the car by then, and if Lappi will adjust to it.
The others haven't stood still either

[EstWRC]

The others haven't stood still either

Well I haven’t heard anything big coming from Toyota and M-Sport but maybe they don’t just say it out publicly?

[wrc2017]

Well I haven’t heard anything big coming from Toyota and M-Sport but maybe they don’t just say it out publicly?
Yes, i think you are correct..

[TRW]

You just saw Juho whitrawed before last stage because of unhomologated new parts, you think it was about her socks or something? :D

[EstWRC]

You just saw Juho whitrawed before last stage because of unhomologated new parts, you think it was about her socks or something? :D

yes we know he was testing...what i meant was that M-sport and Toyota havent said publicly when they will come out with big updates, unlike Hyundai and Citroen who have admitted they will have big upgrades

[Eli]

The others haven't stood still either

Of course, can't discount that, perhaps they take Ostberg there, he did finish 2nd last year...

[AnttiL]

Lappi said in the Neste Rally podcast that the C3 has insufficient front aero, the level of a 2017 Toyota. Also that it reacts too slowly. And that it took Ogier six months to notice the same flaws but now that Ogier mentioned them, things started happening.

[OHL]

yes we know he was testing...what i meant was that M-sport and Toyota havent said publicly when they will come out with big updates, unlike Hyundai and Citroen who have admitted they will have big upgrades
A bit late replying... It could be that Hyundai and Citroen need to say these kind of things as they are both on their back foot. Hyundai, the manufacturer, must be putting immense pressure on Hyundai WRT to get a championship. Citroen, well we all can see how they are doing. Toyota and M-Sport don't have this kind of optics problem and don't need to make claims about better performance coming. Having said that, Toyota have been talking about reliability this year and that is something they must be under pressure to solve.

[mknight]

When Ogier was at Msport they were quite vocal about upgrades as well. Then there was a pressure that he should be winning/leading champ.

[OHL]

When Ogier was at Msport they were quite vocal about upgrades as well. Then there was a pressure that he should be winning/leading champ.

Yes, very true. M-Sport are in an interesting place right now. The car is pretty good, they are in the shadow of 2 back-to-back championships and Elfyn is doing a fine job of driving this year. New R5 car is good according to those who have tested it, Rally Estonia not withstanding. You would have to say there isn't whole lot of pressure on them at the moment, other than commercial success.

[Rally Power]

Lappi said in the Neste Rally podcast that the C3 has insufficient front aero, the level of a 2017 Toyota. Also that it reacts too slowly. And that it took Ogier six months to notice the same flaws but now that Ogier mentioned them, things started happening.

There’s a recent interview of Ogier that may help to understand Lappi situation ( http://forum-rallye.com/index.php?/topic/35-les-news-du-championnat-du-monde/page-964 ). Ogier says that the C3 has been steadily developed and is now more usable, even if it’s still unstable. He believes the adaptation to the car was easier for him than for Lappi and he’s happy with the results so far, blaming starting order for not being faster in some events. Also mentions some (suspension?) evolutions for Finland and engine upgrades for Germany, while confirming he will stay with Citroen till the end of 2020 (his planned last WRC season).

It’s not hard to imagine that with current cars set-up complexity and homologation restrictions the top drivers are pushing for their tech abilities and status inside the teams to lead car development according to their driving style. Probably that’s why Lappi is suffering, just like Paddon or Mikkelsen on their earlier days with the i20 and Hanninen with the Yaris after Latvala changed it; if Lappi can’t wait for suitable car upgrades, he may always try to adopt Ogier style…

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi-tuskaillut-koko-kauden-citroenin-saatojen-kanssa-auto-on-rakennettu-enemman-ogierin-ajotyylille/

Lappi is not using the newly homologated front axle because it doesn't suit his driving style. Remember how before the season his contract supposedly said the two drivers shall be equal in the team...

[dimviii]

https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi-tuskaillut-koko-kauden-citroenin-saatojen-kanssa-auto-on-rakennettu-enemman-ogierin-ajotyylille/

Lappi is not using the newly homologated front axle because it doesn't suit his driving style. Remember how before the season his contract supposedly said the two drivers shall be equal in the team...
if doesnt suit him,maybe he asked for the old axle.

[mknight]

https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi-tuskaillut-koko-kauden-citroenin-saatojen-kanssa-auto-on-rakennettu-enemman-ogierin-ajotyylille/

Lappi is not using the newly homologated front axle because it doesn't suit his driving style. Remember how before the season his contract supposedly said the two drivers shall be equal in the team...

Don't remember anything like that getting mentioned tbh. Do you remember where you have it from? Kind of optimistic assumption with 6 times WC in the team.

[Allez Andruet]

Don't remember anything like that getting mentioned tbh. Do you remember where you have it from? Kind of optimistic assumption with 6 times WC in the team.

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/esapekka-lappi-paljasti-yksityiskohtia-citroen-sopimuksestaan-meilla-on-mustaa-valkoisella/7119054#gs.tcf9bh

We have it in the contract, that I won't be number two by default. Ofcourse it may look like that, but the contract has certain conditions.

...

We will have similar cars with Seb. These kind of things have been ensured.

[mknight]

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/esapekka-lappi-paljasti-yksityiskohtia-citroen-sopimuksestaan-meilla-on-mustaa-valkoisella/7119054#gs.tcf9bh

We have it in the contract, that I won't be number two by default. Ofcourse it may look like that, but the contract has certain conditions.

...

We will have similar cars with Seb. These kind of things have been ensured.

Thanks for finding it.

Obviously you just quote the wording in the article, but there clearly are some holes in it.
- "number two by default ", that might be correct, but after 8 rounds and having like 1/4 of Ogiers points while he fights for championship things can change
-"similar cars", again similar doesn't mean exactly the same

Anyway even if things like this are in the contract the recent history shows that contracts can be broken (Meeke at Citroen, Mikkelsen at Hyundai), just depends if the team is willing to take the penalty.

[deephouse]

Ah, Citroen. Every day they prove they are the best works team in the world. I bet everyone wants to be there, even Tanak.

[Rally Power]

Contradicting the earlier reports, Lappi also used the front suspension evolutions in Finland, apparently making the car easier to adjust. In Germany the C3 is expected to get engine upgrades.

[mknight]

Contradicting the earlier reports, Lappi also used the front suspension evolutions in Finland, apparently making the car easier to adjust. In Germany the C3 is expected to get engine upgrades.

Dunno where you getting your info from but Citroen did engine upgrades (with joker) already for Finland as confirmed by the homologation list and by Budar in interview. Strange they would have another upgrade again in so short time. Hence I think it's some confusion.

[Rally Power]

Dunno where you getting your info from but Citroen did engine upgrades (with joker) already for Finland as confirmed by the homologation list and by Budar in interview.(...)

From Ogier interview to Auto Hebdo, before the rally; he mentioned new parts to improve the car handling in Finland (confirmed as front diff changes) and engine upgrades in Germany. No idea about Budar interview, but in all Citroen pre and post event PR’s there’s only a mention to the front axle upgrades. Anyway, it’d be great if those engine changes were actually used; they would be already race tested before Germany.

Still on Lappi using the new parts; all the fuss about him not having access to them was a storm in a teacup, which makes one wonder about how fake some news can be.

[tomhlord]

The main thing is Lappi was smiling again.

[Rally Power]

Dunno where you getting your info from but Citroen did engine upgrades (with joker) already for Finland as confirmed by the homologation list and by Budar in interview. Strange they would have another upgrade again in so short time. Hence I think it's some confusion.

Confirmed by Budar on Citroen rally preview: new engine joker to debut in Germany.
https://media.citroenracing.com/en/default-title-259

[mknight]

Interesting, they used a joker on engine 1/7 and no new one since then. Maybe they felt it wasn't tested enough to actually run it in Finland?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

And Lappi actually ran the old front suspension in Finland and did rather well.

Using the engine upgrade for Germany should be a no-brainer though - everyone likes more power !

[Rally Power]

And Lappi actually ran the old front suspension in Finland and did rather well.

Nope; that was rumoured before the rally but Lappi told in the post event PC that the use of the front axle joker was vital for him to get a better set-up. https://www.nesterallyfinland.fi/info/uutiset/fia-post-event-press-conference-1/

[Andre Oliveira]

Bottas tested C3 WRC

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1W1FxyiSjZ/?igshid=118af5unxej16

[MartijnS]

Sound is strange.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Exhaust/muffler silencer was installed for this test.

Some questioned if it were a Hybrid but alas not.

[er88]

Seb saying what I mentioned and thought about the C3 previously. They now know how to fix issues and make the car better in one area, but then other problems arise and it effects other parts of the c3 "which is already a tricky car".

It seems they've hit a wall in testing after working on things, and can't improve as things stand. The car is fundamentally flawed and it goes back to Matton and his management, and the risks the technical guys admittedly took in development and design. No driver can get totally on top of the car fully, not even the great Ogier.

[EstWRC]

Yes but what a guy he is, he is doing miracles with it!!!

[er88]

I've gained so much more respect and admiration for Seb since VW left. Unlikely he'll win the title this year imo (although anything can happen), but if Citroen can find some/any improvements for next year and Ogier can get a 6th title with 3 different manufacturers, then wow....

Difficult for me as I dont fully support one of them, but I'd like Tanak to win the championship this year out of the big 3. However I'd also like Ogier to get a 3rd title with 3 different manufacturers before he retires, but if both of those outcomes happen in the next 2yrs, I'd then feel for Thierry. Chance he can finally finish ahead of Ogier this year and it still might not be enough to take the championship.

[AnttiL]

Lappi said to Finnish media he tried some extreme setup changes in midday service, even the engineers said it wouldn't work. In the end he barely noticed any change. And he added that it was the same in Corsica.

[Mirek]

One weird thing is also what I posted yesterday. Citroën had much higher top speed on the SS1 than all others. I wonder if they realy need it. With all those hairpins and junctions the shorter gearing shall be probably better (Toyota had the lowest top speed on the SS1).

[Mise]

One weird thing is also what I posted yesterday. Citroën had much higher top speed on the SS1 than all others. I wonder if they realy need it. With all those hairpins and junctions the shorter gearing shall be probably better (Toyota had the lowest top speed on the SS1).

Not sure if this was the case in first loop, but in second loop Ford had 197 km/h

[denkimi]

One weird thing is also what I posted yesterday. Citroën had much higher top speed on the SS1 than all others. I wonder if they realy need it. With all those hairpins and junctions the shorter gearing shall be probably better (Toyota had the lowest top speed on the SS1).
Gearboxes are linked to some other rally aren't they? I would assume they will use this one in Spain?

[wrc2017]

One weird thing is also what I posted yesterday. Citroën had much higher top speed on the SS1 than all others. I wonder if they realy need it. With all those hairpins and junctions the shorter gearing shall be probably better (Toyota had the lowest top speed on the SS1).

I seen Toyota with 198kmh.. and Citroen was on limiter at 190kph today.

[Mirek]

Interesting, I admit I didn't have time to watch much today. Yesterday it was different.

[EstWRC]

New rear wing ? https://twitter.com/fernischumi/status/1166744255022489603?s=21

[reff92]

New rear wing ? https://twitter.com/fernischumi/status/1166744255022489603?s=21

I noticed the same when i watched ogier test video.

[lnvs]

Wing looks like same as in Germany, but what the heck is in the rear diffuser area. Diffuser doesn't stick out anymore. There seems to be visible exhaust pipes. Maybe that explains strange engine sounds in videoclips.

[dimviii]

Wing looks like same as in Germany, but what the heck is in the rear diffuser area. Diffuser doesn't stick out anymore. There seems to be visible exhaust pipes. Maybe that explains strange engine sounds in videoclips.

maybe its the system with more/bigger silencers to reduce noise.

[lnvs]

maybe its the system with more/bigger silencers to reduce noise.
Just noticed it was mentioned in previous page. Didn't know they use such things. :eek:

[T16]

maybe its the system with more/bigger silencers to reduce noise.

I wonder if they are testing air flow from the rear diffuser.

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi-vastasi-villeihin-huhuihin-tyonantajastaan/

Lappi asked about the rumors that Citroen would pull out already at the end of this season. He seems to get completely nervous and says that he hasn't heard anything about that and nobody can know where they work in the next one and a half year. Maybe he accidentally spilled the beans that Citroen quits at the end of 2020?

[T16]

https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi-vastasi-villeihin-huhuihin-tyonantajastaan/

Lappi asked about the rumors that Citroen would pull out already at the end of this season. He seems to get completely nervous and says that he hasn't heard anything about that and nobody can know where they work in the next one and a half year. Maybe he accidentally spilled the beans that Citroen quits at the end of 2020?

I thought Citroen were public about the fact they may not be there in 2021? Weren’t they saying they were waiting to see the regs etc?

[mknight]

Yes, they said they don't yet know about 2021 multiple times.

It is also possible they could do part-time 2021 while making new car just like they did in 2016.

[OHL]

Is this the resurgence of Citroen?
They were really good on fast and smooth gravel in Finland.
They are going well in the rough and technical and faster sections in Turkey.

Lappi has recently put in some incredible performances and Ogier is now ready to pounce.
It seems they are gathering their strength and it's great to watch.

[mknight]

Compared with Sardinia they indeed are much stronger here, about same speed as Hyundai, maybe even a bit better.
We'll see how they do on the more slippery gravel in GB specially in first passes which was their weakness last year and earlier this year. But the lost tarmac form is indeed a worry, especially since they were fast on it the last two years.

[deephouse]

Is it hard to understand that they are cheap and don't care about WRC anymore. Building a new car would mean another shock for them.

[denkimi]

Wouldn't m-sport and citroen be a good combination? Ford cares even less than citroen, malcolm can use all the money he can get, and citroen and msport combined should be able to build a very good car.

[deephouse]

Wouldn't m-sport and citroen be a good combination? Ford cares even less than citroen, malcolm can use all the money he can get, and citroen and msport combined should be able to build a very good car.

They will not get another brand. Ford could get back fully involved after 2021 season when new regs comes to play. A good combination? Maybe yes, maybe not. There is a difference between M-Sport and Citroen. M-Sport (Wilson) have a real passion for this sport (company is build around that), while Citroen don't or they don't show. Maybe they don't have nothing to prove anymore since they have most titles and practically best WRC statistists so far. Of course the world needs them to be in the game, but Linda talks for herself. If them will really go away I hope Peugeot will convice her to step up. They are not done in this kind of sport and since they are aiming in EV technology that could be another step closer to their goals.

[Rally Power]

They will not get another brand. Ford could get back fully involved after 2021 season when new regs comes to play. A good combination? Maybe yes, maybe not. There is a difference between M-Sport and Citroen. M-Sport (Wilson) have a real passion for this sport (company is build around that), while Citroen don't or they don't show. Maybe they don't have nothing to prove anymore since they have most titles and practically best WRC statistists so far. Of course the world needs them to be in the game, but Linda talks for herself. If them will really go away I hope Peugeot will convice her to step up. They are not done in this kind of sport and since they are aiming in EV technology that could be another step closer to their goals.

It may be a shock for you, as a Citroen hater, but nowadays the difference between having Citroen or Peugeot in the WRC is mainly changing a badge as both brands sport divisons are totally connected and depend on PSA board decisions. No extended budget would miraculously arrive and most of the staff would certainly continue if Peugeot took Citroen place.

[Yugo_para_siempre]

Watching the last videos from Catalunya testing, showing the significant aero updates, I mainly focused to the strangely shaped headlights.

It seems that either they put something like plastic-elastic cover on the regular headlights, or they actually moved them a little bit more to the inside and reduced their size.

Could it be a partial change-implementation due to the rush of the test, or they intend to actually apply a change to the shape of the headlights?

The new aero is nice and aggressive but these modified headlights are so ugly...

[EstWRC]

Esapekka Lappi on the new aero package and increased downforce on C3 WRC for 2020 season:

- Other drivers must hurry to keep up next year.

Lappi admitted the new aero reminded him of the Toyota years.

For @yleurheilu.

https://twitter.com/hartusvuoriwrc/status/1187446423689814017?s=21


I’ll take that with a pinch of salt. He was also praising the Citroen before this season.

[mknight]

... and he was also sounding entirely hopeless before Finland this year and ended 2nd

[Andre Oliveira]

So, no Mads / Torstein in Australia.

I think if Citroën used 3 teams all year, title could be possible. Hope new aero brings back Ogier to top field.

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/feature/9694/everyone-loses-if-citroen-wrc-pullout-goes-ahead

Hey, can anyone who has access to the article show it to us please?

[AnttiL]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/feature/9694/everyone-loses-if-citroen-wrc-pullout-goes-ahead

Hey, can anyone who has access to the article show it to us please?

No new information.

[wrc2017]

No new information.

Correct.Evans writing an article with old information so he doesn't appear to be behind the curve.

[Andre Oliveira]

Official: Citroën out

https://fr-media.citroen.com/fr/default-title-32

[EstWRC]

English version https://int-media.citroen.com/en/default-title-326

Because of Ogier then. Meh

[AL14]

English version https://int-media.citroen.com/en/default-title-326

Because of Ogier then. Meh

Yea sure...

[EstWRC]

Yea sure...

Of course this isn’t the only reason but I believe it’s one part of it for sure.

[TypeR]

I guess Mads is ,,very happy,, about these news.. :D struggling the whole season with the C3R5 crap, hoping to get in the WRC.. but now nothing.

[deephouse]

Lappi is the biggest loser here. His career could end straight away

[doubled1978]

I wonder if anyone can come up with a budget to run a couple of the Citroen’s next year as Hansen did with the Peugeot’s in WRX?
Ostberg/Mikkelsen Norwegian consortium maybe! Ha ha

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Basically, Citroen is unwilling to give some trust to Lappi & decided to bailout instead..

Sent from my Redmi 6 using Tapatalk

[tomhlord]

Official: Citroën out

https://fr-media.citroen.com/fr/default-title-32

What a massive shame. So many potential ramifications.

[Jewy46]

Between this statement blaming Ogier and their statement blaming Meeke last year this all smells of a team who couldn't hold their hands up and say they've made mistakes.

In their pomp they were the benchmark but the last few years have left a bitter taste in the mouth. Still very sorry to see them go however as it leaves 2 less seats available in a driver market that is already crying out for more opportunities.

Will be a huge pity to see (potentially) Latvala, Meeke, Breen, Mikkelesen, Paddon, Ostberg and more on the sidelines in 2020. Makes the Championship less exciting and competitive

[Indreq]

Will be a huge pity to see (potentially) Latvala, Meeke, Breen, Mikkelesen, Paddon, Ostberg and more on the sidelines in 2020. Makes the Championship less exciting and competitive

If they would all join R5, then this would be much more interesting campaign than WRC...

[doubled1978]

I see a few people saying they are blaming Ogier, I’m not sure that’s the case really, they are just telling the truth, that without him and they almost certainly don’t have a chance to win, so why spend the €Xmillion when they are set to leave anyway.
Doesn’t mean I agree, or want them to go but I understand their position.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Really sad to lose this stalwart manufacturer from WRC. They were there (with Ford) through many tough years.

I was a fan for some years from when Loeb drove a Saxo (like me) and I loved the Xsara from it's kit-car birth to its WRC glory.

A sad day, but it was only going to be in WRC one more year anyway. They didnt really have the budget and their road cars had no connection to the high performace C3.

[EstWRC]

I see a few people saying they are blaming Ogier, I’m not sure that’s the case really, they are just telling the truth, that without him and they almost certainly don’t have a chance to win, so why spend the €Xmillion when they are set to leave anyway.
Doesn’t mean I agree, or want them to go but I understand their position.

thanks god im not the only one thinking this way.

Reale shame and a sad day for motorsport.

[br21]

the real question is what was first - Citroen deciding to stop so Ogier goes to Toyota then or Ogier decides to leave and then Citroen decides to stop...?

[deephouse]

They weren't serious from beginning. I mean from 2017.

[BigWorm]

I guess Ogier will never reach Loeb-status at home now, final nail to the coffin for that

[Crazy J]

True reason or not, but Citroen announcement really admires Lappi. Must be very nice to be referred meaningless driver in eyes of your own team.

Probably M-Sport closes next and then.. whole next season looks pointless now. Such a shame, just when everything started to look good with new cars.

[dimviii]

while they were for years the reference team,last years we had,Meeke blaming,the way Loeb get away,and now ''because of Ogier''

[deephouse]

I guess Ogier will never reach Loeb-status at home now, final nail to the coffin for that

I must say Ogier is quite smart. He could go in any team of three at the end of 2016 and choosing M-Sport (they are known for building the best car from start). When Fiesta are start to lack from others he chose Citroen (since they were only one interested in him), despite that was a risky move. He thought he could change it but he couldn't. When there was open spot at Toyota and their desperate of top driver he was only one and grabs it.

I'm wondering even if he would win this year's title I think he would still go to Toyota, because that's a winning car everywhere. And I have a strong feeling he will change his mind over retiring except if he will not win next year.

I'm more worried about Neuville, if Tanak outpace him and is a high possibility he would do that he can't go anywhere.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The ethos of the Citroen brand has switched to totally 'comfort-orientated' road cars and only DS has anything remotely sporty.

And unless they are winning in WRC and getting that publicity then their presence did nothing for the brand at all.

We're probably lucky they lasted this long.

[RS]

English version https://int-media.citroen.com/en/default-title-326


Kind of English anyway..

So all the stuff about Ogier not being allowed to leave was bullshit or he had to pay an exit penalty?

[BigWorm]

Poor Lappi is just collateral in all of this.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hopefully they will pay Lappi's contract for the final year.

He should get a drive with M-Sport as that wont cost them much.

[Japé]

Also this point is hard to understand from both Citroen and VW:

https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/november-2019/citroen-to-leave-wrc/page/6839--12-12-.html

"The statement added that customer activities would be 'reinforced' next season.
"Building on the experience and the competencies of PSA Motorsport teams, Citroën customer competition activity will be reinforced in 2020, with a support and an amplified commitment towards C3 R5 customers throughout the world," it said."

What is the point of reinforcing the brands presence in R5? When on same time they most likely deny privateers using Citroen in WRC, just like the VW did (homologation just as an excuse).

This does not make sense in brand perspective, neither it will in sense that for many R5 clients, R5 is serving as a ladder to seek the WRC seats, the seats that Citroen has now self-destruct simultaneously. "Citroen, we provide solutions to reach your dreams that we have just demolished."

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Also this point is hard to understand from both Citroen and VW:

https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/november-2019/citroen-to-leave-wrc/page/6839--12-12-.html

"The statement added that customer activities would be 'reinforced' next season.
"Building on the experience and the competencies of PSA Motorsport teams, Citroën customer competition activity will be reinforced in 2020, with a support and an amplified commitment towards C3 R5 customers throughout the world," it said."

What is the point of reinforcing the brands presence in R5? When on same time they most likely deny privateers using Citroen in WRC, just like the VW did (homologation just as an excuse).

This does not make sense in brand perspective, neither it will in sense that for many R5 clients, R5 is serving as a ladder to seek the WRC seats, the seats that Citroen has now self-destruct simultaneously. "Citroen, we provide solutions to reach your dreams that we have just demolished."

The vast majority of customer C3 R5's (like other R5's) are bought or hired for use in national or regional championships.

Relatively few are bought for use in WRC2 and even fewer of those are used by private driver's hoping to attain a seat in WRC1.

[mknight]

I guess Ogier will never reach Loeb-status at home now, final nail to the coffin for that

Agree, even if he wins next he won't be loved in France.

In reality the main reasons in the long term are
- half hearted commitment since at least 2016
- Matton for development and choice of drivers in 2016-2017
(only one experienced driver and supposedly not listened to, then not getting a single of the 3 free VW drivers)

[tommeke_B]

Well, Tänak's move seems to have very serious consequences for the WRC... Very sad for Lappi.

[Barreis]

Ogier couldn't do better with that car which had wrong developing driver - Kris Meeke who developed car for shunts not for titles

[Norm75]

Poor Lappi is just collateral in all of this.
Lappi, JML, Ostberg, Meeke, maybe more drivers as collateral damage not to mention rally fans and the good of the sport. Now we lose many seats and have what t look forward to, 8 or 9 top flight WRC cars competing.
This in my eyes is not a world championship, but an elitist championship where only a select few can compete.
In fact, now we have two of the top three drivers in one team, Hyundai may as well toss a coin between either one of them and we just have a championship of two.

As much as I don't like to see any manufacturer leave, good riddance shitroen. You handle Meeke poorly, you treated a 9 time champion who was a great ambassador for your brand with little respect in the end, and you have handled this badly by blaming your failure on pretty much the whole rally drivers competing in the sport, and now you run off with your tail between your legs having spat your dummy out and held the white flag aloft in the traditional cheese eating garlic smelling surrender monkey French tradition. Au revoir . . . and good riddance.

[RS]

Ogier couldn't do better with that car which had wrong developing driver - Kris Meeke who developed car for shunts not for titles

That car has six victories: three for Ogier, two for Meeke, one for Loeb.. not bad company:)

[AnttiL]

This in my eyes is not a world championship, but an elitist championship where only a select few can compete.

Well what then are other world championships if not elitist? They are the best ones of their field. However, in motorsport we must accept that pure sporting talent alone is not enough, you also need to have money to compete on high level. Someone pays the bills in order to get marketing in return, and they have the right to stop doing so, if they don't consider it viable.

[Norm75]

Well what then are other world championships if not elitist? They are the best ones of their field. However, in motorsport we must accept that pure sporting talent alone is not enough, you also need to have money to compete on high level. Someone pays the bills in order to get marketing in return, and they have the right to stop doing so, if they don't consider it viable.

Other world championships have usually over 20 competitors on track. This is in danger of becoming boring again like when we had only Citroen and ford competing and only a couple of drivers winning every year.
How are we going to get the excitement of 4 drivers level on times and six within a second or two like Finland this year when most of them won't even be able to get a drive.

[Allez Andruet]

Other world championships have usually over 20 competitors on track. This is in danger of becoming boring again like when we had only Citroen and ford competing and only a couple of drivers winning every year.

Yeah, unlike F1 which has more than 10 different race winners every year.

[Norm75]

Yeah, unlike F1 which has more than 10 different race winners every year.

Which is a sport I used to watch for years every qualifying and every race but I no longer do. I've watched one race in the last couple of years, I've put the highlights on a couple of times at night and I've fallen asleep within half an hour. Bad example.

Edit: having said that at least F1 has had Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Bottas and Verstappen at least win races (I think) which is more than the wrc will get next season.

[Duvel]

Other world championships have usually over 20 competitors on track. This is in danger of becoming boring again like when we had only Citroen and ford competing and only a couple of drivers winning every year.
How are we going to get the excitement of 4 drivers level on times and six within a second or two like Finland this year when most of them won't even be able to get a drive.

I agree, the more teams, the more competitive championship. Still, the wrc has been worse in recent history.
We could still see some tight battles between the 3 top guys, two of them are teammates so that could get exiting to. Don't jump to negative conclusions to fast. I hope that Msport signs one fast (rally winning speed) driver, like Meeke, Latvalla or Lappi, one of those guys could be in the mix sometimes I think.

What's the chanse we could see private Citroëns competing here and there next year? Abu Dhabi money, Ostberg,..

[racerx1979]

Tommi said he at least wants one Finn on the team and he got Kalle.

Malcolm can easily top that with a all Finn team.. M-Sport team for 2020?? JML, Lappi and Suninen :)

[EstWRC]

Which is a sport I used to watch for years every qualifying and every race but I no longer do. I've watched one race in the last couple of years, I've put the highlights on a couple of times at night and I've fallen asleep within half an hour. Bad example.

Edit: having said that at least F1 has had Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Bottas and Verstappen at least win races (I think) which is more than the wrc will get next season.

so who do you think would suddenly start to win races in 2020 beside or against the TOP3?

the situation would be same if Citroen had stayed

[wrc2017]

Citroen have been a disgrace, the arrogance of the management (Jackson and Tavares) is almost beyond belief. The openly blame everyone only themselves.

[bassist]

What do you expect from Citroen, the car has very rarely been competitive, Seb tried his best where Kris and others failed.To use Seb's move to Toyota as the reason sighting no top line driver to sign is a joke. They just don't give a stuff for the WRC. Not enough seats now for some really talented drivers.

[Rally Power]

I see a few people saying they are blaming Ogier, I’m not sure that’s the case really, they are just telling the truth, that without him and they almost certainly don’t have a chance to win, so why spend the €Xmillion when they are set to leave anyway.
Doesn’t mean I agree, or want them to go but I understand their position.

No matter how understandable it can be, the truth is that Citroen immediate pull out feels like a low blow on the WRC and on Citroen staff and fans. The car has improved on gravel since Finland and with only 1 tarmac rally, alongside the new upgrades, it’d likely be more competitive next year, even without Ogier at the wheel.

For sure Ogier is free to look for a better team, especially after Catalunya’s fail, but one should also remember his off in Sweden, his crash in Sardinia and his poor performance in Finland (while Lappi being P2) to realize that Citroen and the C3 can’t be entirely blamed for him not getting the tilte.

[wia5958]

Ogier couldn't do better with that car which had wrong developing driver - Kris Meeke who developed car for shunts not for titles

Meeke has been widely regarded as a great development and test driver

[Rally Power]

Meeke has been widely regarded as a great development and test driver

Yep, the Mini, the 208 and the C3 are there to prove it...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The fact is that if Hyundai hadnt grabbed Tanak then there would be no free seat at Toyota and Ogier wouldnt have moved from Citroen.

That was the real catalyst to the inevitable exit of Citroen. One team having 2 of the Big 3 was really bad for the WRC.

[RAS007]

Meeke has been widely regarded as a great development and test driver

I am a fan of Kris Meeke, but I'm really not sure about this........

[rallyfiend]

Ogier made a 2-year commitment to Citroen
Citroen made a 2-year programme around this commitment.

Ogier has refused to live up to his word and is leaving after one-year.

So Citroen leave the WRC.

F*#k Ogier.

He is not a man of his word and a scumbag who deserves all the tarnish this puts on his reputation and legacy.

I'm sure the 150 or so staff at Citroen Racing who are probably losing their jobs because of his complete narcissism would agree with this.

[GravelBen]

If you really believe the Citroen spin about the reason for leaving, and that the decision to leave WRC wasn't made first. Could well be the other way around, that Ogier only started talking to Toyota because Citroen wouldn't guarantee another season of competing.

[RS]

No matter how understandable it can be, the truth is that Citroen immediate pull out feels like a low blow on the WRC and on Citroen staff and fans. The car has improved on gravel since Finland and with only 1 tarmac rally, alongside the new upgrades, it’d likely be more competitive next year, even without Ogier at the wheel.

For sure Ogier is free to look for a better team, especially after Catalunya’s fail, but one should also remember his off in Sweden, his crash in Sardinia and his poor performance in Finland (while Lappi being P2) to realize that Citroen and the C3 can’t be entirely blamed for him not getting the tilte.

Yes, Ogier was mathematically in the fight for the title up until the penultimate event so it’s feasible with some improvements on the car he could have fought again next year.

If Citroen had seen it through until the end of next year it would have felt like a natural end. This kind of fucks everyone over.

[RS]

What's the chanse we could see private Citroëns competing here and there next year? Abu Dhabi money, Ostberg,..

I was hoping there might be some semi-private team built on the ruins like when Skoda ended the Fabia WRC programme and we got ‘Red Bull Skoda’ who ran some fairly decent drivers. But from the Citroen press release there was no mention of the C3 WRC being available to privateers.

Best hope is they might put some decent support behind a WRC2 programme .

[GigiGalliNo1]

Ogier made a 2-year commitment to Citroen
Citroen made a 2-year programme around this commitment.

Ogier has refused to live up to his word and is leaving after one-year.

So Citroen leave the WRC.

F*#k Ogier.

He is not a man of his word and a scumbag who deserves all the tarnish this puts on his reputation and legacy.

I'm sure the 150 or so staff at Citroen Racing who are probably losing their jobs because of his complete narcissism would agree with this.

So a company gives you a product to use and you are the best person who has used all the products bar one that compete against it... yet when you start using that product it's of a lower grade to the others, yet the manufacture of said product has a great history of excellence...

You personally fail with this product due to the quality, you try your best, you have had the emotions of joy and frustration throughout... and you hear someone now blame you from the side lines (such as your comments) that you aren't the best, it's your fault that the product is not the best... what else does the company do? Quit? Blame the user in this case? Try a new user? Work on the product?

Makes sense yes?

[rallyfiend]

So a company gives you a product to use and you are the best person who has used all the products bar one that compete against it... yet when you start using that product it's of a lower grade to the others, yet the manufacture of said product has a great history of excellence...

You personally fail with this product due to the quality, you try your best, you have had the emotions of joy and frustration throughout... and you hear someone now blame you from the side lines (such as your comments) that you aren't the best, it's your fault that the product is not the best... what else does the company do? Quit? Blame the user in this case? Try a new user? Work on the product?

Makes sense yes?

He signed a contract.

Life is tough. It doesn't always work out.

He's run off and broken his contract.

He's a piece of sh*t because he wasn't willing to work with the team to improve the product over the time he committed.

[AnttiL]

I was hoping there might be some semi-private team built on the ruins like when Skoda ended the Fabia WRC programme and we got ‘Red Bull Skoda’ who ran some fairly decent drivers. But from the Citroen press release there was no mention of the C3 WRC being available to privateers.

Pierre Budar said in David Evans' podcast that the cars will likely be available for rent or on sale. But remember that it's much more expensive now than 10 years ago.

[deephouse]

Where is PH-Sport's privateer car now. I didn't see it anywhere. It was all over the internet that would be available with that hidious livery. I don't think anyone will be interested since Ogier wasn't really happy with it.

[AnttiL]

Where is PH-Sport's privateer car now. I didn't see it anywhere. It was all over the internet that would be available with that hidious livery. I don't think anyone will be interested since Ogier wasn't really happy with it.

Possibly it didn't even exist and the livery was a photoshop. If someone had rented the car, it would have come from the factory.

The only way people will use them now is that they will be considerably cheaper than M-Sport's options.

[Norm75]

so who do you think would suddenly start to win races in 2020 beside or against the TOP3?

the situation would be same if Citroen had stayed

Who could win races other than Tanaka, Neuville, and Ogier, let's see who previous winners are, Sordo, Loeb, Evans, Mikkelsen, Meeke, Latvala Paddon . . . enough possibilities I think.

[rp]

Who could win races other than Tanaka, Neuville, and Ogier, let's see who previous winners are, Sordo, Loeb, Evans, Mikkelsen, Meeke, Latvala Paddon . . . enough possibilities I think.

No way! It does not help if they have won some events earlier. Only the top 3 drivers Tänak, Neuville & Ogier are capable of winning all the time and fighting for the title. Hopefully some others also in the future, but not in 2020...

[TypeR]

Who could win races other than Tanaka, Neuville, and Ogier, let's see who previous winners are, Sordo, Loeb, Evans, Mikkelsen, Meeke, Latvala Paddon . . . enough possibilities I think.

Yes, you read statistics.. But in reality, none of them is going to fight for wins thru out the 2020.
They may shine on some rallies, but otherwise no.. Evans only one to possibly win an event from that list. 2018 Loeb won Spain and Latvala Australia, other were between the top3. 2019 Sordo won Sardegna(thanks to Yaris) and other rallies were between top3.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

People are blaming both Ogier and Citroen but neither would've left if Tanak hadn't gone to Hyundai.

Given their huge financial commitment to their WRC programme, Toyota HAD to sign Ogier in this situation whatever it took.

No-one was slagging Tanak for leaving Toyota and leaving them in the lurch with no top driver...

[Tarmop]

Umh? Tänak`s contract ended, he was a free man. He isn`t connected and doesn`t have to rely on Citroen`s and Ogiers plans/ wishes. He filled his contract, that ends/ ended, moved forward, Toyota did the same. What the F are you on about now?

[racerx1979]

This is true. Tanak was a free agent and Ogier broke his contact... Completely different. It's obvious Ogier was not happy with Citroen. That you can blame on Tanaks brilliant performance. If Ogier was in a Yaris and getting killed by Tanak in a Hyundai he would say the Toyota was no good. The Citroen did fail him at a key point in the season, but all other manus have had issues where the cars gave up. It's not 2016 where only one team has an elite car... Times have changed. Next year will be close and Citroen could have been with the Toyota and Hyundai, but we will never find out. Sucks for Citroen employees who have been in the rally from the old days... I know some of them and they don't give a rats ass about some WEC boredom. They will most likely quit to find privateer rally jobs...

Tanak was that good this year and by all means I'm not a Tanak fan. He basically convinced Ogier to leave. Remember this was the first time Ogier has lost in how many years?? I'm sure that's hard to take. He will lose again in 2020. Tanak just gained a new fan lol.

[Allez Andruet]

No-one has broken any contracts here. If the reports are true, there was a buy-out clause in Ogier's contract and TGR simply exercised it. Fair deal. And if anyone feels it was "too easy" for Ogier to walk out from Citroen, well... there's really only Citroen to blame for that.

And what comes to Tänak, why on Earth would anyone blame him for anything? Free agent is exactly that. Free. And we all know how this business works (probably not necessary to point out to case Citroen earlier this week...) and how cruel it can be. As the old saying goes, if you want loyalty, buy a dog.

[EstWRC]

so

Ogier in VW, they leave
Ogier in M-sport, they ran out of money
Ogier in Citroen, they leave
Ogier in Toyota, ....

:D

[racerx1979]

I never heard there was a buy-out clause. Budar mentioned they would settle it in court.

[deephouse]

so

Ogier in VW, they leave
Ogier in M-sport, they ran out of money
Ogier in Citroen, they leave
Ogier in Toyota, ....

:D

Ogier in Toyota, .... He leave :P

[reff92]

Ogier in Toyota, .... He leave :P

I estimate that he leaves after 2020. I can put my few cents on that

[pantealex]

Some of you really believe that one (1) man (Ogier) forced big manufacturer leave WRC ?

Simply: NO

[Allez Andruet]

I never heard there was a buy-out clause. Budar mentioned they would settle it in court.

It was mentioned in this article: https://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000006316294.html

Someone had to buy out Ogier's contract for next season, and that someone was Toyota.

I guess we'll find out later whether this statement was correct or not.

[AnttiL]

It was mentioned in this article: https://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000006316294.html

Someone had to buy out Ogier's contract for next season, and that someone was Toyota.

I guess we'll find out later whether this statement was correct or not.

The credibility of this article is low

[racerx1979]

It was mentioned in this article: https://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000006316294.html

Someone had to buy out Ogier's contract for next season, and that someone was Toyota.

I guess we'll find out later whether this statement was correct or not.

Did you listen to the Autosport interview with David Clark and Budar? A good listen if you hav not.

[deephouse]

Is it matter. As long as he compete. If we look closely if someone of that 2nd tier drivers don't step up their game we will only have two title fighters and manufacturers won't come. If there were at least 4 or more I'm sure they could pay more attention to this sport so they could fight for titles, not just ocassional wins and podiums.

[reff92]

that buy out clause was discussed on wrc live @racc or was it wales

[Allez Andruet]

The credibility of this article is low

While the publication and the journalist are reliable as such, it's true that the silly mistakes (WRC2, Bertelli and what else was there) lay a shadow of a doubt for the other content as well.

[Fredouye]

I never heard there was a buy-out clause. Budar mentioned they would settle it in court.No, he mentionned they've found an agreement.

[Fredouye]

Ogier était sous contrat jusque fin 2020, comment a-t-il pu s’en dégager ?
"Effectivement, le contrat allait jusqu’à fin 2020. Il y a rupture de contrat. Dans ces cas-là, soit on va au tribunal, soit on trouve un accord à l’amiable. On a engagé des négociations et trouvé un accord avec Ogier."

[TypeR]

Ogier était sous contrat jusque fin 2020, comment a-t-il pu s’en dégager ?
"Effectivement, le contrat allait jusqu’à fin 2020. Il y a rupture de contrat. Dans ces cas-là, soit on va au tribunal, soit on trouve un accord à l’amiable. On a engagé des négociations et trouvé un accord avec Ogier."

Ogierは2020年の終わりまで契約を結んでいましたが、どうやってそれから脱出したのですか？
「実際には、契約は2020年の終わりまで続いていました。契約違反があります。その場合、裁判所に行くか 、友好的な合意を見つけます。オジェと。」

[wia5958]

Bit of karma for Citroen dropping meeke mid season leaving him high and dry now they've been dropped and left high and dry. Sorry to see a manufacturer leave but they only have themselves to blame slow development is no doubt the key to their downfall. And with no long term ambitions after 22 it's understandable that no number 1 driver would want to be associated with them

[Morte66]

Bit of karma for Citroen dropping meeke mid season leaving him high and dry now they've been dropped and left high and dry. Sorry to see a manufacturer leave but they only have themselves to blame slow development is no doubt the key to their downfall. And with no long term ambitions after 22 it's understandable that no number 1 driver would want to be associated with them

Man.

I was a Citroen fan, and I was a Meeke fan, it was perfect.

Then they fired him so I was just a Meeke fan.

Now it looks likely no more Meeke.

I said a few rallies ago that if Meeke weren't in it I'd be a Latvala fan.

Oh.

[Rally Power]

Bit of karma for Citroen dropping meeke mid season leaving him high and dry now they've been dropped and left high and dry. Sorry to see a manufacturer leave but they only have themselves to blame slow development is no doubt the key to their downfall.

The slow development argument is BS; Ogier was leading the series until Sardinia and despite the hydraulic issue in Catalunya he shouldn’t blame the car or the team for loosing the title. He crashed in Sardinia, felt ill in Finland and got a puncture in Germany; adding his off in Sweden makes one to realize he was less regular than the previous years. The C3 wasn’t the fastest car around (especially on tarmac) but in 2017-18 Ogier wasn’t also driving the fastest car; his regularity was then the key to become champ.

[Rally Power]

No-one has broken any contracts here. If the reports are true, there was a buy-out clause in Ogier's contract and TGR simply exercised it.


Nope. As it was already told, Budar clearly said that Ogier broke the contract but a deal was reached to avoid future litigation. It’s not hard to guess that Ogier (using Toyota’s money) eventually sent a big fat divorce check to Citroen...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Umh? Tänak`s contract ended, he was a free man. He isn`t connected and doesn`t have to rely on Citroen`s and Ogiers plans/ wishes. He filled his contract, that ends/ ended, moved forward, Toyota did the same. What the F are you on about now?

OK Tanak was out of contract, but in effect he left Toyota who wanted to keep him after winning two titles.

Tanak joining Hyundai (with Neuville) was a big surprise and has done the WRC no favours, and has now effectively caused the loss of Citroen.

Does anyone think the WRC is now in a better position than 2019 ?

[deephouse]

I believe that Citroen still think of pulling out before 2020 season begins, even if Ogier was still there. Rumours start before we knew that Tanak is linked to Hyundai team. They just grab the moment and occused Ogier for leaving. Budar says that simply they can't provide development so fast like Ogier wanted, but M-Sport could do that with far less budget and far less people behind. I think that they don't want to and simply politicaly end that for all.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Sorry no, listening to Budar's interview (a pretty honest guy I think) it seems pretty clear they were to going 'finish the job' in 2020.

Lappi also said how surprised he was and how many improvements have been made ready for the C3 for next year.

But there was no way they thought they could chase titles without one of the Big 3 and that's what they needed to do to justify the programme.

[tomhlord]

Turns out the WRC is not the only motorsport losing Citroen in 2020...

“new global guidelines” https://www.touringcartimes.com/2019/11/22/citroen-announce-super-tc-2000-exit/

[RaunoK]

The slow development argument is BS; Ogier was leading the series until Sardinia and despite the hydraulic issue in Catalunya he shouldn’t blame the car or the team for loosing the title. He crashed in Sardinia, felt ill in Finland and got a puncture in Germany; adding his off in Sweden makes one to realize he was less regular than the previous years. The C3 wasn’t the fastest car around (especially on tarmac) but in 2017-18 Ogier wasn’t also driving the fastest car; his regularity was then the key to become champ.

Maybe he was making more mistakes because the car wasn't good enough and he had to push more? :)

[wia5958]

The slow development argument is BS; Ogier was leading the series until Sardinia and despite the hydraulic issue in Catalunya he shouldn’t blame the car or the team for loosing the title. He crashed in Sardinia, felt ill in Finland and got a puncture in Germany; adding his off in Sweden makes one to realize he was less regular than the previous years. The C3 wasn’t the fastest car around (especially on tarmac) but in 2017-18 Ogier wasn’t also driving the fastest car; his regularity was then the key to become champ.

I don't mean just last year from 17 development has been slow in 3 years they made it from a fast tarmac car to a middling gravel car and removed the entire tarmac performance in the process. It's hardly development is it. Aero changed little or none at all until last months of this year and will never be seen on stages engine wasn't developed as this was citroens strongest point Ogier not once can I remember said he was happy with the car. Always on the limit

[flykas]

The slow development argument is BS; Ogier was leading the series until Sardinia and despite the hydraulic issue in Catalunya he shouldn’t blame the car or the team for loosing the title. He crashed in Sardinia, felt ill in Finland and got a puncture in Germany; adding his off in Sweden makes one to realize he was less regular than the previous years. The C3 wasn’t the fastest car around (especially on tarmac) but in 2017-18 Ogier wasn’t also driving the fastest car; his regularity was then the key to become champ.

I guess by regularity you mean consistency. Yeah his consistency was the key to previously, but you won't win a title by being consistently slow with a shitty car. I mean, I am sure that no one would argue that Ogier can drive on tarmac and what did we see this year, do you think that he somehow forgot how to drive on tarmac?

[mknight]

It's hardly development is it. Aero changed little or none at all until last months of this year and will never be seen on stages engine wasn't developed as this was citroens strongest point Ogier not once can I remember said he was happy with the car. Always on the limit

While you are right about aero they had at least two engine upgrades last one for Germany this year.

[Rally Power]

Maybe he was making more mistakes because the car wasn't good enough and he had to push more? :)

That could be the case if you really believe that Ogier poor results were only due to the car, while the good ones (8 podiums, including 3 wins) were just because of the driver…

Btw, in 2 of Ogier’s 4 unsuccessful events Lappi was P2.

[dimviii]

Maybe he was making more mistakes because the car wasn't good enough and he had to push more? :)

there was years that he had to push less (polo)
you cant have always the best car.

[EstWRC]

OK Tanak was out of contract, but in effect he left Toyota who wanted to keep him after winning two titles.

Tanak joining Hyundai (with Neuville) was a big surprise and has done the WRC no favours, and has now effectively caused the loss of Citroen.

Does anyone think the WRC is now in a better position than 2019 ?

but what about this theory Eddie. i have been thinking about this for a week now (after hearing Budars interview on gravel notes)

what IF Ogier was the reason that Tänak left TGR? Budar said in the gravelnotes podcast that at around Rally Germany time it was clear Ogier didnt want to continue with them.

So, Ott heard that Ogier is having talks with Tommi joining Toyota and we know Ott doesnt want to be with him in the same team anymore, pluss the bad environment in the team.

And that weird body language from both of them (Ott and Ogier) at rally wales press conference when Tommi is talking about next season.


I maybe thrown with rocks now because i have noticed whatever Ogier does most people here defend him for that. But ill take the chance.


E: seeing now that on estonian forum one user is basically saying the same and confirming it, so im not the only one who is thinking so

[dimviii]

I maybe thrown with rocks now because i have noticed whatever Ogier does most people here defend him for that. But ill take the chance.

why to throw rocks mate? this scenario isnt out of picture.

[flykas]

I maybe thrown with rocks now because i have noticed whatever Ogier does most people here defend him for that. But ill take the chance.



How would that need a defence? Dosen't sound like some bad move from Ogier.

[AnttiL]

but what about this theory Eddie. i have been thinking about this for a week now (after hearing Budars interview on gravel notes)

what IF Ogier was the reason that Tänak left TGR? Budar said in the gravelnotes podcast that at around Rally Germany time it was clear Ogier didnt want to continue with them.

So, Ott heard that Ogier is having talks with Tommi joining Toyota and we know Ott doesnt want to be with him in the same team anymore, pluss the bad environment in the team.



Nice theory but I don't believe for a moment Toyota could have hired both Tänak (with a new high-price contract) and Ogier (with contract-breaking money to pay)

However, Ogier could be the reason that Mäkinen lowered his offer for Tänak because he knew he would get Ogier if Tänak left?

[EstWRC]

Nice theory but I don't believe for a moment Toyota could have hired both Tänak (with a new high-price contract) and Ogier (with contract-breaking money to pay)

However, Ogier could be the reason that Mäkinen lowered his offer for Tänak because he knew he would get Ogier if Tänak left?

yes, thats what i also meant.

[meh]

Nice theory but I don't believe for a moment Toyota could have hired both Tänak (with a new high-price contract) and Ogier (with contract-breaking money to pay)


2 top-drivers in one team probably wasn't Mäkinen's original plan, he have been quite vocal against that and always send clear messages that top3 should be in different teams.

[cali]

Nice theory but I don't believe for a moment Toyota could have hired both Tänak (with a new high-price contract) and Ogier (with contract-breaking money to pay)

However, Ogier could be the reason that Mäkinen lowered his offer for Tänak because he knew he would get Ogier if Tänak left?Doesn't make sense unless you get Ogier for more than one year. Otherwise it's a very shortsighted strategy.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[deephouse]

Or when/if Ogier actually retire, they start to chase Neuville. I have a feeling that next year there will be a lot of tension between Ott and Thierry.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Its likely we will never know the truth unless Makinen and Ogier give their sides of the story.

All we know is where we are and that Citroen are gone. And that its bad for WRC strength, bad for drivers needing seats and for having Tanak & Neuville in one super-team.

[EstWRC]

I’m pretty sure Ogier would have gone to Hyundai if Ott had stayed in Toyota

At least I wouldn’t rule it out

[lluisva555]

Our review of the Citroën C3 WRC 2017-2019 aero modifications and the evolution of the development work that led to the new aero package. Hope you like it!

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2019/11/25/aero-development-of-the-citroen-c3-wrc-2017-2019/

[Rally Power]

Our review of the Citroën C3 WRC 2017-2019 aero modifications and the evolution of the development work that led to the new aero package. Hope you like it!
https://www.wrcwings.tech/2019/11/25/aero-development-of-the-citroen-c3-wrc-2017-2019/

One can now speculate that testing the 2020 aero pack prior to Catalunya was also an attempt to convince Ogier to stay in the team…

Btw, I’ve read somewhere that the aero pack was developed by Oreca; any truth to it?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I’m pretty sure Ogier would have gone to Hyundai if Ott had stayed in Toyota

At least I wouldn’t rule it out

Or just as possible, a return to M-Sport. You cant rule out anything being possible this crazy silly season.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKXpmv4WsAA_HGo?format=jpg&name=900x900

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKVEZrLWkAIoPJa?format=jpg&name=small

[lluisva555]

Btw, I’ve read somewhere that the aero pack was developed by Oreca; any truth to it?

It seems so, AutoHEBDO.fr published it in the first lines of this article
https://www.autohebdo.fr/wrc/actualites/jean-marc-finot-nous-ne-nous-engagerons-pas-en-rallye-l-horizon-2022-207301.html

[GigiGalliNo1]

"Citroen team principal Pierre Budar says delays in introducing hybrid power and a lack of return on investment in the World Rally Championship are contributing factors in the French firm quitting the series.
As outlined in Motorsport News last week, the French firm announceditsdecisiontoleave the WRC with immediate effect. Citroen’s communication was not exactly news, but pointing to Sebastien Ogier’s move to Toyota as a key reason for the departure certainly caught the attention (see page 12).

Citroen team principal Pierre Budar admitted to MN, however, there were other contributing factors regarding both the governance and promotion
of the WRC.

Asked if the series’ inability to embrace hybrid or alternative technologies quicker and the lack of presence in key markets like India and Russia was an issue for Citroen, Budar said: “For sure, it’s part of the problem. It’s very important for a brand like Citroen to make sure the situation [in the championship] is in line with its marketing expectation.

“What you have mentioned [hybrid and key markets] is not available today on WRC, so it gives WRC some lack compared with some other disciplines.
“When you see how much we need to push for the electrification of our brand and products and the marketing we need to push these cars on sales, it’s really difficult for a brand like Citroen not to focus on this. If the sporting discipline cannot help, it’s a real problem.

“We are not very strong when we go to the CEO to explain what we could do for the marketing of the brand when we cannot give any answers on these items – which are major items today for our marketing department. It’s part of the lack of our proposal.”

The WRC will deliver a hybrid solution for 2022 – a timeframe which FIA president Jean Todt has admitted is coming too late. The FIA insisted the teams had been part of the problem in slowing down that initial hybrid timetable, when they were unable to agree on the regulations and requirements.

FIA rally director Yves Matton told MN the remaining manufacturers are offering positive feedback on the current cars and the incoming 2022 regulations.
“The manufacturers request this kind of car we have for the moment,” said Matton.

“I have some quite positive feedback for 2022. It’s what they request from the car at the top level. We ask this question on all of our meetings: how do we reduce the cost involved? We are working together to keep this at the best level possible, while maintaining the technologies they request. The feedback is that we need this kind ofcarandweneedtodothebestwe can to keep them as cost-effective as possible, but this high-level of technology comes at the cost.”
Matton confirmed there would be no cost-saving on the horizon with 2022’s new regulations.

“We never say we will cut the cost,” said Matton. “What we have to do is work to maintain the cost to the same level – it’s not possible to bring hybrid and reduce the cost. The only way to reduce the cost would be to go to an R5-based championship, but it’s not what the manufacturers want for the top-level car.”

While they’re not acceptable at the highest level of the sport, R5 category cars remain at the heart of the FIA’s plans to develop manufacturer interest in the series.
“We have the target for 2023 to have 20 manufacturer-supported cars competing regularly in the world championship,” he added. “I don’t say 20 World Rally Cars, we know that’s impossible – the maximum we ever achieved was 16 or 17. But working with the WRC 2 and WRC 3 categories for next year, this is when we start to see more cars supported by the manufacturers and we will see more interest in this next year.

“We want a pro-am championship, but if we say we go to an R5 [World Rally Car] then the manufacturers will not follow. We need to have the balance between the top cars and some cars supported by the manufacturers from the lower categories.”

In an effort to combat Citroen’s perceived lack of potential world championship-winning drivers at the top of rallying, the FIA will reveal a new initiative helping the next generation of talent into the top tier.
“I cannot say too much about this,” said Matton, “but we will be [announcing] in December. We are working at the FIA on a talent selection programme – it will be a global programme concerning rallying. As a rally tool, it’s really useful. We are working really hard for this and again, to bri new talents, this is one of the reasons we make the changes to the WRC and WRC 3 layers Matton pointed out that sev drivers were capable of winn WRC rounds, but accepted th title contenders remained Ot Tanak, Thierry Neuville and Sebastien Ogier.

In his time with Citroen, Matton managed Citroen’s own junior team and he said the lack of such manufacture programmes was telling.

“Maybe in the last two or th years – since the launch of the new World Rally Cars – we mi something,” he said. “Maybe did not anticipate the gap betw R5 cars and World Rally Cars now the tools will be in place t have a quite proper pyramid. As well, we need to make sure the manufacturers really understand how important it to have junior teams. Citroen was one of the main provider [of drivers]. When you see [Kr Meeke, [Dani] Sordo, Ogier, Neuville, [Sebastien] Loeb, al these drivers were involved in Citroen junior programme an now some other manufacture can understand the value of t to the championship.”
WRC Promoter was contact regarding the costs involved i competing in the WRC and on Citroen’s departure, but it declined to comment.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Customer Citroens might appear in the 2020 WRC line-up, says Budar

Citroen’s 2020-specification C3 WRC – a car Pierre Budar is convinced is capable of lifting the world title – could still be seen next year.
Budar admitted the Versailles- based Citroen Racing operation was open to offers for the cars, which are developed and ready
to go with homologated updates for next season. The C3 WRC has undergone significant testing and development over the second half of the current year with progress targeted for next season.

PIERRE BUDAR

What went wrong for Citroen this season?

“We have faced the situation where we had lost a lot of development at the beginning
of the year. We have been rushed. It was difficult to recover the time we had [lost] at the beginning of the year because we had new drivers, new engineers and they had to understand the car. They had to learn how to work together and make development the priority. All of this needed time at the start of the season and, of course, this time give us some late advancement compared to the other teams and we have not been able to recover this.”

But you made good progress?

“I am quite sure we have made a lot of progress during the year and we had a lot of ongoing
Budar said: “I am quite convinced we would have started the season in a much better position than
this year.

“If we will see the car next season, I don’t know. The situation is still quite new, but if somebody is interested to rent or buy the cars, then I am open.”
Asked how confident he was the car could challenge for a title in 2020, he added: “I am quite convinced of
it. The progress we could see during the latest development tests. A better understanding and experience of
the team – [for the] race and data development that would have been ready for Monte Carlo, but this is the problem – from Seb’s point of view it would have been better to have it before and we can agree with this, but it cannot be possible. You cannot contract the time when you need to do some new development, some new tooling or new moulds, you cannot get the time back – especially with the homologation system, which is strict. With the homologation system you cannot make a mistake.”

When did you first realise Ogier was thinking about leaving?

“We had some first discussion with Seb after the summer. Of course, his concern was started after Germany.”
That was a difficult engineers on the car; they were quite new at the beginning of this season and now they have one more season [of experience]. Altogether
I am sure we would have been more in the fight next season.”

Those sentiments are shared by Esapekka Lappi. The Finn, who completed some of the development work along with Eric Camilli, said: “I think we could have done quite big steps. Obviously you saw the aero update which was working very well – for sure it would have helped a lot on the fast stages and fast rallies. event, especially given his statements to the press at the time...

“Yes. I confirm.”

When did you find out Citroen would not continue into theWRC’s hybrid era in 2022?

“We had several scenarios pondering for a while and it has been decided to relaunch Peugeot in World Endurance Championship. We have already DS involved in Formula E and we couldn’t get a third programme and have a good level of performance with three main programmes from the same organisation. So, when the decision has been made for Peugeot somewhere [in PSA], the decision has been made for Citroen not to be involved in the hybrid WRC in 2022.”
The change and the difference in time was quite big from the old aero. And then we had some performance- related updates: new engine, new geometry with some steering updates and some other things for the diffs. We were working on it.
“Like we saw when I got the diffs I wanted [this season] it all clicked on gravel. There was a lot of work on Tarmac to be done, but I was positive we had a big improvement for next year. Maybe they wouldn’t have answered all the challenges we face this year, but at least some of them.”

Was there ever a chance, in your opinion, Peugeot, for example, could run in WRC instead of WEC?

“[That] could have been a scenario also. But it has been decided to go for WEC because this programme was more online with expectation on Peugeot’s side. I don’t want to comment
on this choice by Peugeot – I’m not in a position to do so.”

[SubaruNorway]

Do we really need any more third world countries now like Russia and India?
There always seems to be some problem with them.

I really can't see why manufacturers would be interested in hybrid only running on road section, i can't see how they can find any real development to use in road from this solution, unlike F1 where you have both MGU-K and MGU-H

[cali]

Do we really need any more third world countries now like Russia and India?
There always seems to be some problem with them.

I really can't see why manufacturers would be interested in hybrid only running on road section, i can't see how they can find any real development to use in road from this solution, unlike F1 where you have both MGU-K and MGU-HIt's like 20 times bigger market than Norway, of course everyone is tempted to sell there in big volumes

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[deephouse]

Hyundai are kings in Russia, Ford in America, the rest of the world is held By Toyota, 😂

[dimviii]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191202/d32b924c176aac32e20cacd970b3a729.jpg

[AnttiL]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191202/d32b924c176aac32e20cacd970b3a729.jpg

This is from last week's Motorsport News. Budar has said all along that the cars will be available to rent or to buy. However, this doesn't mean someone has the money for them.

Besides, I hate it when people post quotes like that without sources. That twitter account even copies my tweets sometimes (not retweeting) or copies my posts from this forum (like this post (https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?37343-TOYOTA-GAZOO-Racing-WRT&p=1236649&highlight=Latvala#post1236649) and this tweet) (https://twitter.com/paddocknews/status/1199811323351187457)

[dimviii]

This is from last week's Motorsport News. Budar has said all along that the cars will be available to rent or to buy. However, this doesn't mean someone has the money for them.

didnt post it because its something new,but because they could be rented with homologation updates.
We had a conversation here ,about who is going to rent it when they will be no homologation updates with the new aero for example.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

As Citroen have quit WRC then what use are the WRCar's to them... sit them in a museum ?

If no-one can afford to buy/rent the C3's they would gain more by letting a private team have them and get the good publicity, plus the exposure on rallies.

[TypeR]

I think for a private team it would be easier to rent them.. otherwise they could end up like Valery Gorban, having punch of Mini WRC cars.. :D

[T16]

As Citroen have quit WRC then what use are the WRCar's to them... sit them in a museum ?

If no-one can afford to buy/rent the C3's they would gain more by letting a private team have them and get the good publicity, plus the exposure on rallies.

Unless they are unreliable because of poor preparation or they look well off the pace because of poor driving.

[Rally Power]

As Citroen have quit WRC then what use are the WRCar's to them... sit them in a museum ?
If no-one can afford to buy/rent the C3's they would gain more by letting a private team have them and get the good publicity, plus the exposure on rallies.

Remember Adapta’s attempt to run the ‘17 Fiesta? Current WRC cars are almost impossible to be run by privateers. Besides, from the interviews Budar gave it’s not clear that the cars could get 2020 upgrades (probably they wouldn’t).

Btw, Budar confirmed to Auto-Hebdo that the aero-pack delay was mostly due to FIA’s lack of rules clarification and that after Ogier pull-out (no details about the parting agreement) they talked to Neuville, but they could only offer him a 1 year contract (according to their 2019-20 plan).



Do we really need any more third world countries now like Russia and India?
There always seems to be some problem with them.
I really can't see why manufacturers would be interested in hybrid only running on road section, i can't see how they can find any real development to use in road from this solution, unlike F1 where you have both MGU-K and MGU-H

Interesting questions; why not move them to ‘WRC future’ thread?

[Tarmop]

There`s the money part, ofc, but in Ostberg`s case, there was also the case of lacking spareparts, setups and having to test with his one and only car also. Ofc also due to budget, but also M-Sport not able to provide anything as fast as their maincars. So i think that if someone, a Sheik or Serderidis for example, is interested and satisfied with the offered package, they will do something.

[GigiGalliNo1]

So what was the problem that Adapta had to run the '17 Fiesta?

Everyone was saying it was expensive... ok so it's the cost of running the car.

Was there anything else? Logistics? Parts? Technical team? Mechanics? Engine? Up-keep?

[racerx1979]

Was there anything else? Logistics? Parts? Technical team? Mechanics? Engine? Up-keep?

All of the above.

[AnttiL]

If you think back about Østberg's 2017 season, he was often on the pace, but had some issues that dropped him. Rear wheel bearings broke numerous times, from a part that was made stronger in the M-Sport cars. Also some hydraulic/electronic issues which plagued M-Sport only early in the season. Also, had he continued in 2018, the car would have started to lack upgrades that the M-Sport cars had.

At most, I can see some hobbyist/gentleman driver using the C3 WRC's, but no one with a competitive target.

[Oops!]

I think Petter Solberg proved that point almost 10 years ago now....