Citroen WRT

[rallyfiend]

You think Ogier would prefer a bigger wage (to add to his millions) over a better chance of another Title ?

No.

Of course he would prefer the millions. It's the basis of his move to Citroen: a big paycheck....

[SubaruNorway]

According to Citroën press lady there is a car for Mads if he pays.
Not confirmed but rumors are a car will cost 3-4 mill, which is not an option.

https://parcferme.no/rally/citroen-vil-gi-mads-en-bil-hvis-han-betaler-pa-egenhand/?fbclid=IwAR1MatEWSRa2g-dJFOe53H56nHi2GIIyi9MlqzRsjgqObT47gXP0GHZCcxc

[mknight]

According to Citroën press lady there is a car for Mads if he pays.
Not confirmed but rumors are a car will cost 3-4 mill, which is not an option.

https://parcferme.no/rally/citroen-vil-gi-mads-en-bil-hvis-han-betaler-pa-egenhand/?fbclid=IwAR1MatEWSRa2g-dJFOe53H56nHi2GIIyi9MlqzRsjgqObT47gXP0GHZCcxc

I'd say this is a textbook example of "once a paying driver, always a paying driver.

Citroen knows he paid before and are trying to make him pay. He has two podiums from last few months to show so tries to make them pay.

Dunno how it ends for Østberg but I really doubt we will only see 2 cars on all 2019 rallies.

[skarderud]

This is the reason EVEN don't want to pay theire drivers into any team.

I agree with Østberg, he is above to pay any more, drive for free is whats the lowest he can accept.
It is really bad sign if a team like citröen need a driver to pay. No one in Toyota or Hyundai pays to drive, as far as i know atleast.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[denkimi]

Either they already have 3 drivers under contract who they feel are fast enough, or once again they just don't care about winning anything. But if they aren't interested in the championship, why have they hired ogier?

[AnttiL]

I think Martin Holmes told the same in Absolute Rally's latest episode, that it's stupid to expect Østberg to always bring budget.

[AnttiL]

But if they aren't interested in the championship, why have they hired ogier?

Drivers' title and rally wins.

[EstWRC]

IMO its vice versa, Ogier hired Citroen. :D

[Japé]

"Pay driver" discussion is always really interesting, since general assumption is that cost of running one (third-fourth) WRC car for a whole season is ridiculous small investment compared to what car brands global or even local (in some countries) marketing budgets are. Why car brands don't see exciting motorsport anymore as good investment compared to other normal and dull marketing methods? It would be more understandable if private teams struggle to pay for their drivers. Yet we need to remember that even in 90's almost all of the F1 teams were still "private teams".

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Of course he would prefer the millions. It's the basis of his move to Citroen: a big paycheck....

Thats not what he said. He loved it at M-Sport and only left because Ford wouldnt pay to develop the car.

Ogier now values Titles.

[br21]

They tested last time with Reiger dampers?

[T16]

Thats not what he said. He loved it at M-Sport and only left because Ford wouldnt pay to develop the car.

Ogier now values Titles.

So why has he gone to the worst car then?

[rallye-vid]

Maybe they promised him full factory backup on problems ;)

[deephouse]

He is chasing 3 different car titles (maybe four) and 9 time record

[Japé]

Sorry totally off-topic, but with frustration from Citroen WRT financing situation, I just had to copy paste to here the current Motorsport.com top news:

"TAG stays with Red Bull despite losing engine name deal. TAG Heuer will remain a partner of Red Bull Racing despite the arrival of Honda meaning that the watch manufacturer can no longer brand the Formula 1 team's engine."

Like what?! Sometimes the financing and marketing side of the motorsports teams is hard to comprehend.

[Allez Andruet]

So why has he gone to the worst car then?

Oh yes, most definitely. Based on 2018 one must have nine titles to be able to win with the C3. So from that point of view: 1) the car is shit, 2) Ogier will struggle.

[Tarmop]

Also 45 years old and been away from the sport some years.

[Norm75]

Sorry totally off-topic, but with frustration from Citroen WRT financing situation, I just had to copy paste to here the current Motorsport.com top news:

"TAG stays with Red Bull despite losing engine name deal. TAG Heuer will remain a partner of Red Bull Racing despite the arrival of Honda meaning that the watch manufacturer can no longer brand the Formula 1 team's engine."

Like what?! Sometimes the financing and marketing side of the motorsports teams is hard to comprehend.

I think at the time redbull and Renault's relationship was a little on the frosty side, with redbull threatening to move to honda engines if renualt didn't pull their finger out. With Lotus not long being rebranded as Renault works team I think it was decided, when redbull continued with Renault engines, to rebrand them as tag engine.

[able1]

He is chasing 3 different car titles (maybe four) and 9 time record

He has said it many times this year. It will be his last contract(2 year contract with citroen) and no ambition to surpass Loebs 9 title record

[Tarmop]

Elena also said that's it for them, now hoping to do half a season

[N.O.T]

He has said it many times this year. It will be his last contract(2 year contract with citroen) and no ambition to surpass Loebs 9 title record

if he gets 8 i really doubt he will leave...

[Japé]

I think at the time redbull and Renault's relationship was a little on the frosty side, with redbull threatening to move to honda engines if renualt didn't pull their finger out. With Lotus not long being rebranded as Renault works team I think it was decided, when redbull continued with Renault engines, to rebrand them as tag engine.

Would be interesting to know what the engine name deal investment and ROI are for TAG Heuer. For Citroen WRT similar case might be tougher to reach, but basically by using same logic and frosty relation situation e.g. M-Sport could have had 2018 engine name deal for Anonimo Watches and Anonimo would have payed e.g. Ogier's salary. Nevertheless what trying to say here is that if for some reason Citroen does not see their full WRT as an good investment to finance (and gain back to) themselves, they could at least try to make some effort to get partners on board. And clearly TAG Heuer deal shows that others see value on this and are able to do this kind of deals. It would be nice to know who are the people in WRC teams who are negotiating the partner and sponsor deals for teams and what are their track records in the past years.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/140531/citroen-explains-why-thirdcar-funding-was-lost

[Norm75]

Would be interesting to know what the engine name deal investment and ROI are for TAG Heuer. For Citroen WRT similar case might be tougher to reach, but basically by using same logic and frosty relation situation e.g. M-Sport could have had 2018 engine name deal for Anonimo Watches and Anonimo would have payed e.g. Ogier's salary. Nevertheless what trying to say here is that if for some reason Citroen does not see their full WRT as an good investment to finance (and gain back to) themselves, they could at least try to make some effort to get partners on board. And clearly TAG Heuer deal shows that others see value on this and are able to do this kind of deals. It would be nice to know who are the people in WRC teams who are negotiating the partner and sponsor deals for teams and what are their track records in the past years.

Don't quite know if there would be much interest in engine name rebranding outside F1 tbh, and TAG engine name goes back several decades when they used the name at McLaren for I think Porsche engine. Someone maybe able to correct me on that

[dimviii]

when they used the name at McLaren for I think Porsche engine

yes thats right

[Allez Andruet]

Would be interesting to know what the engine name deal investment and ROI are for TAG Heuer.
Calculating ROI for one single marketing investment is always a bit tricky. Usually you're targeting growth in brand awareness with such investment and there are numerous factors to the pay-off calculation.

[wia5958]

Funny feeling could see that abu dhabi sponsorship on toyota next year

[Tarmop]

They were going to take a break next year, back in 2020.

[deephouse]

And I really don't believe that Abu Dhabi/Toyota partnership could work when there is Nasser in Toyota for cross country rallying (Qatar, Toyota SA)...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Maybe Abu Dhabi got fed up with Citroen's poor WRC results after 5 years and will wait to see if they are worth sponsoring again depending on their 2019 performance...

[deephouse]

Maybe Abu Dhabi got fed up with Citroen's poor WRC results after 5 years and will wait to see if they are worth sponsoring again depending on their 2019 performance...

C'mon Seb is onboard. Even if he do a bad rally he takes maximum out of it. Except the car is really that shit that Ogier will struggle a lot with him but Meeke, Loeb, Breen, Ostberg, Lefebvre, Mikkelsen did a pretty solid results with that car, sometimes even exceptional. 2020 is far away and a lot can happen during that time. Novadays is nothing for granted. Even Safari rally isn't sure if it will be on calendar. You don't know what will happen until then.

[Norm75]

Maybe Abu Dhabi got fed up with Citroen's poor WRC results after 5 years and will wait to see if they are worth sponsoring again depending on their 2019 performance...

I'm more inclined to think with Loeb possibly coming in for more rallies, and with maybe breen and Ostberg in the picture for that shared 3rd car on remaining rallies, the sheikh was probably offered far less seat time, so pulled the plug.
Wouldn't be surprised if he rocked up in a fiesta next year.

[deephouse]

I think he have 90 percent of say when and how much he was driving that third C3. Althought he is paying that entry...

[AnttiL]

Wouldn't be surprised if he rocked up in a fiesta next year.

I would be.

[pantealex]

50/50 for me. Al-Qassimi does what ever he wants.

[AMSS]

They tested last time with Reiger dampers?

Has no one heard anyhing about this?? Or did you know they tested with Reiger?

[br21]

Has no one heard anyhing about this?? Or did you know they tested with Reiger?

I saw picture with test car on Reiger.
And was reading their main focus during gravel test with Ogier was on dampers.
Looking for more informations now.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Red Bull are following Ogier, so would be the main sponsor on his car, therefore not so much room for 'Abu Dhabi'.

[AnttiL]

50/50 for me. Al-Qassimi does what ever he wants.

I mean, they announced a year off and return in 2020.

[Norm75]

Red Bull are following Ogier, so would be the main sponsor on his car, therefore not so much room for 'Abu Dhabi'.
Exactly, why I'm not convinced they'll be back with Citroen in 2020.

[wia5958]

Maybe but was fair bit of bad press between meekes crashes and citroens dismissal of meeke. Could be trying to seperate themselves from bad publicity just a thought. Also meekes helmets always have quite a large abu dhabi sponosor so could be a personal sponsor to him

[AnttiL]

Exactly, why I'm not convinced they'll be back with Citroen in 2020.

True, they could well be returning elsewhere in 2020. And this could also be the reason for the year off, they time to make plans. Maybe their only option for 2019 would have been M-Sport with currently no championship contender drivers available (remember they already announced earlier they would drop their Citroen support if they wouldn't be competing seriously for the championship in 2019).

[AnttiL]

Maybe but was fair bit of bad press between meekes crashes and citroens dismissal of meeke. Could be trying to seperate themselves from bad publicity just a thought. Also meekes helmets always have quite a large abu dhabi sponosor so could be a personal sponsor to him

Who even remembers that stuff anymore after such an intense championship fight and an unpredictable silly season?

[wia5958]

Who even remembers that stuff anymore after such an intense championship fight and an unpredictable silly season? the press when at the start of the season its all talk of meeke returning with toyota after being dropped mid season by citroen

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier on returm to Citroen, the C3 and Loeb...

http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/auto-moto/rallye/actualites/ogier-au-figaro-une-telle-domination-francaise-est-rare-dans-le-monde-du-sport-936260

[AnttiL]

Ogier on returm to Citroen, the C3 and Loeb...

http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/auto-moto/rallye/actualites/ogier-au-figaro-une-telle-domination-francaise-est-rare-dans-le-monde-du-sport-936260

He also says stuff like rallies should be shortened to two days but keep current 300 km of stages. Also mentions that electrification should be adopted soon.

[deephouse]

He also says stuff like rallies should be shortened to two days but keep current 300 km of stages. Also mentions that electrification should be adopted soon.

He is incredible, why bothered if he wants to end the career in two years. This shows exactly that he is player.

[AnttiL]

I think shortening to two days with the same kilometres would be a positive thing, it would increase the endurance element and give more value for spectator per traveling day.

[the sniper]

It was seemingly rumoured that Mads was asked for 3 to 4 million euros for (a presumably partial?) season in a third car. If that is the cost we're talking for that, is it not utterly incredible that that budget can't be found for Loeb to do a partial season? Loeb, PSA darling and legend, a long time Reb Bull athlete, a likely rally winner, competing in a Championship where Red Bull are the promoter, yet collectively they can't provide what is a relatively small increase in budget for such a cause? Just seems odd to me the more you think about it, given the amount both organisations must be investing in the WRC overall.

Separately I wonder whether Abu Dhabi walked away because Citroen asked them for more money than they'd previously been paying. Having sponsored Citroen throughout the 'dark years', maybe they felt a bit insulted to be squeezed for more once the team finally got itself in a better position going forward?

Basically Budar maybe over played his hand, thinking Abu Dhabi would pay more, Mads would pay for his drive and the Loeb drive would be sorted on the foundations of those things falling into place...?

[deephouse]

that really is a sign of them quitting as soon as possible.

[GravelBen]

I think shortening to two days with the same kilometres would be a positive thing, it would increase the endurance element and give more value for spectator per traveling day.

Is it more value if they can't actually get to as many stages to watch because the timetable is more compressed?

[T16]

I think shortening to two days with the same kilometres would be a positive thing, it would increase the endurance element and give more value for spectator per traveling day.

How on earth would it increase the endurance element, if it were the same distance?

[SubaruNorway]

Is it more value if they can't actually get to as many stages to watch because the timetable is more compressed?

For me two days just makes it more stressful, it sort of works if you can watch a couple of stages on Thursday night like it was in Finland some years, but having the podium start close to 8 in the evening on Saturday and then going out for dinner and enjoy it a bit didn't work for me, too tired!

[AnttiL]

Is it more value if they can't actually get to as many stages to watch because the timetable is more compressed?

A typical rally is like this: 3 stages late in the morning, service, repeat of the same stages mid-afternoon. If we would stretch the day to start earlier and end later we would have a third loop of stages which would mean a spectator could see three stages instead of two.

[AnttiL]

How on earth would it increase the endurance element, if it were the same distance?

Simply the days of driving would be longer and rest breaks shorter. I would also imagine it would require the organizers to go for longer stages to make more efficient timetables.

[AnttiL]

For me two days just makes it more stressful, it sort of works if you can watch a couple of stages on Thursday night like it was in Finland some years, but having the podium start close to 8 in the evening on Saturday and then going out for dinner and enjoy it a bit didn't work for me, too tired!

Increases the endurance element too much? ;)

There's many ways to arrange a "two-day rally". What if it would be from Friday to Sunday. Friday starting with shakedown, then superspecial and one leg of stages in the evening. On Saturday, three legs of stages instead of two. Sunday as it is. We'd have the same amount of stages but one day less work (and one day less traveling for spectators). But I'm not sure they could make it work that simply in rallies with more busy schedules such as Finland and Wales. They would need some re-structuring and more longer stages.

[GravelBen]

A typical rally is like this: 3 stages late in the morning, service, repeat of the same stages mid-afternoon. If we would stretch the day to start earlier and end later we would have a third loop of stages which would mean a spectator could see three stages instead of two.

Thats a fair point with WRC, I wasn't really thinking about repeat stages - as long as the spectators don't mind watching a repeat at the same stage or the other spectator points are close enough to travel to between loops I guess.

My thinking was more from experience with NZ rallies where we don't really repeat stages and the midday service is often remote - so there can be some distance to drive in between spectating stages, with a tight timeframe especially if you stay and watch the whole field (100+ cars for some rallies). Some people will spend the whole day leaving a stage after the top 10-20 to try and catch them at every stage, while others like me will normally stay for most of the field but only get to 2 or 3 stages each day. All part of the fun though. :)

[Zeakiwi]

North Island rallies can have repeat stages, to limit the number of road closures to a reduced area.

2018 Raglan national rally - 4 stages repeated twice with 1 service location.

http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/RAGLAN-RALLY-MAP-V2.pdf

Even the recent Silver Fern had repeat stages. I would not like to know the budgets of some competitors - spare engines and 8 days on the road. etc

[T16]

Simply the days of driving would be longer and rest breaks shorter. I would also imagine it would require the organizers to go for longer stages to make more efficient timetables.

But wouldn't it mean increasing the mileage by about 30k each day? (to absorb the current Sunday miles). If that's the case, it really won't be increasing the endurance element further.

[AnttiL]

But wouldn't it mean increasing the mileage by about 30k each day? (to absorb the current Sunday miles). If that's the case, it really won't be increasing the endurance element further.

Well there's many ways to configure a rally. My idea would be like this (as I already posted)

FRIDAY
- morning shakedown
- afternoon ceremonial start and super special
- evening loop of stages

SATURDAY
- three loops of stages

SUNDAY
- as it is now

This would make Saturday a long day that you would have to survive through. Retiring on the first Saturday loop would also mean lots of Rally2 penalties and lots of missed stages. This setup would also incorporate most likely driving in the dark on both Friday and Saturday.

But of course, you could just start rally on the Friday morning and have two long days, with finish on Saturday evening. That would just make the ending of the rally very late and start very early, which many not be ideal for TV (instead of Friday evening and Sunday afternoon).

[Franky]

I'm not really fond of the idea of a 2 day WRC events. You'll basically spend two days travelling, to and from the event. And then two days of action really isn't enough.

But why is this discussion about event length in Citroen thread?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

But why is this discussion about event length in Citroen thread?

It came from Ogier's interview.

[Rallyper]

Well there's many ways to configure a rally. My idea would be like this (as I already posted)

FRIDAY
- morning shakedown
- afternoon ceremonial start and super special
- evening loop of stages

SATURDAY
- three loops of stages

SUNDAY
- as it is now

This would make Saturday a long day that you would have to survive through. Retiring on the first Saturday loop would also mean lots of Rally2 penalties and lots of missed stages. This setup would also incorporate most likely driving in the dark on both Friday and Saturday.

But of course, you could just start rally on the Friday morning and have two long days, with finish on Saturday evening. That would just make the ending of the rally very late and start very early, which many not be ideal for TV (instead of Friday evening and Sunday afternoon).

One day shorter makes businesses less profitable around the event.

However your alternative is fine for me.

[tc10a]

The format of 2013 Rally Acropolis was a very good example for a shorter event.

There was Shakedown on Friday morning - ceremonial start in the afternoon and two passes of a demanding stage in the evening.
Saturday and Sunday as we are used.

Itinerary: https://www.ewrc-results.com/timetable/6536-acropolis-rally-2013/

Remember it still as one of the best WRC events ever attended (about 50 WRC events) - lots of packed action in this 3 days. And to be honest mostly at a fourth day at a WRC event its getting too much.

[Rally Power]

Didn’t find the thread, but shorter rally schedules were already discussed here some time ago; not hard to agree on them, as long a decent amount of stage kms (around 300) is kept. If somehow shorter events become current in the future, I hope we can still have a few longer ones, as a sort of grand slam (MC, GB, ARG and NZ, e.g.).

[Rallyper]

Mybe we should change thread...?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

With the Loeb news it confirms that Citroen are going 100% just for the 2019 Driver's Championship with Ogier.

Only having Lappi to assist will make it even harder for Ogier than it was this year at M-Sport.

Strange gamble to pay for the top man and then skimp on team-mates (one of which could've been Loeb).

[Tarmop]

You really think, that two Seb`s in one team would work? Nice dreaming...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

You really think, that two Seb`s in one team would work? Nice dreaming...

They get on fine now.

But even an Ostberg or Breen would've been a real help.

[stefanvv]

They get on fine now.

They are NOT in the same team.

[deephouse]

First indicator was Ogier's complaining over guest drivers and their starting positions. He never complain over them until Loeb came and win a rally. That really is a sign that he is nice just for the media, but inside he sees him as a challenge to beat (a nine time challenge I would say). So no they are not getting fine along.

[Rally Power]

With the Loeb news it confirms that Citroen are going 100% just for the 2019 Driver's Championship with Ogier.
Only having Lappi to assist will make it even harder for Ogier than it was this year at M-Sport.
Strange gamble to pay for the top man and then skimp on team-mates (one of which could've been Loeb).

One Seb is enough, especially in Citroen case. Knowing Loeb and Ogier past history in the team and their ultra competitive nature, there's nothing strange about avoiding harmful ego fights. Besides, with Loeb getting a seat at Hyundai, maybe Budar will now be able to find some extra budget and call Ostberg for Sweden and hopefully other events. Fingers crossed.

[T16]

With the Loeb news it confirms that Citroen are going 100% just for the 2019 Driver's Championship with Ogier.

Only having Lappi to assist will make it even harder for Ogier than it was this year at M-Sport.

Strange gamble to pay for the top man and then skimp on team-mates (one of which could've been Loeb).

How do you work that out? It’s not like Citroen have waited so see what Loeb did. They may well have been thinking about WDC and manuf championships, but the Loeb news reduces their chances. I.e: their strategy was already defined before he signed for Hyundai.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

How do you work that out? It’s not like Citroen have waited so see what Loeb did. They may well have been thinking about WDC and manuf championships, but the Loeb news reduces their chances. I.e: their strategy was already defined before he signed for Hyundai.

They lost budget when Abu Dhabi left, but having already signed Ogier they really should've realised that they had to fund the team properly to give him the best chance. Loeb could've done the same job as he will do for Hyundai.

Citroen/ PSA make some strange decisions. They pull out Peugeot RX but dont fully support Citroen-Sport.

[nafpaktos]

edit

[deephouse]

Strange decisions indeed. They bought Opel. And people at the headquarters of PSA needs to afford new yachts, so there isn't money for motorsport.

[Tarmop]

Aren`t they also paying huge fines because of Opel`s engines not complying with current pollution standards?

[Francis44]

Dont forget running the two Sebs on the same team must be very heavy on the salaries paysheet, infact I dont remeber any team running two high profile drivers at the same time with professionals so far already on their careers. Ogier must be on 7 millions plus a year and even with Abu Dhabi I am not sure Citroen could afford much for Loeb.

[dimviii]

infact I dont remeber any team running two high profile drivers at the same time with professionals so far already on their careers..

Ford Focus with McRae Sainz

[Francis44]

Sure, different times, idk if they were payed as much at the time.

[dimviii]

Sure, different times, idk if they were payed as much at the time.

McRae was the most paid at this time

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Dont forget running the two Sebs on the same team must be very heavy on the salaries paysheet, infact I dont remeber any team running two high profile drivers at the same time with professionals so far already on their careers. Ogier must be on 7 millions plus a year and even with Abu Dhabi I am not sure Citroen could afford much for Loeb.

When Colin Clark (correctly) brought up the idea that Loeb could/should be signed by Hyundai, he also said he didnt believe that Loeb's salary would be an issue.. ie. its nothing like the level of Ogier.

[Rally Power]

When Colin Clark (correctly) brought up the idea that Loeb could/should be signed by Hyundai, he also said he didnt believe that Loeb's salary would be an issue.. ie. its nothing like the level of Ogier.

It’s amazing how people talk about salaries or budgets, probably without knowing the real numbers; anyway, Loeb/Citroen divorce seem far from being money related.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/loeb-unlikely-to-return-to-wrc-citroen-1038123/3092515/

Budar strategy has been quite clear since a long time: he wanted a top driver able to push the team to its best level on a permanent basis, not only in a few occasions. Loeb was never interested in doing a full season, so the only other top driver available to revamp Citroen was Ogier. To get Ogier, Budar (like Wilson during the last 2 years) had only one way: to fulfil all his demands. I very much doubt that keeping Loeb on the team was one of Ogier demands.

[stefanvv]

So once upon a time Loeb kicked out Ogier from citroen. now it's the opposite:smokin:

[Rally Power]

Some call it Karma...

[stefanvv]

I don't think that's the exact word, it comes from Hindi I think and in Hinduism they believe in afterlife and rebirth. Close enough if we think in the aspect of a life in a team.

[wia5958]

Has the shitroen ever been first car on the road? I mean when its important I dont think it has. I may be wrong but was just a thought that came to mind unless they they really get the car sorted it could be a problem for ogier if hes 1st/2nd on the road come the gravel rounds.

[Mirek]

Some call it Karma...

Come on, You can't be serious. Loeb is long time retired guy driving just for fun. It's not like he needs PSA for anything. He brings the value not the opposite.

[T16]

When Colin Clark (correctly) brought up the idea that Loeb could/should be signed by Hyundai, he also said he didnt believe that Loeb's salary would be an issue.. ie. its nothing like the level of Ogier.

He probably wasn't comparing the two directly. More likely he meant that Hyundai can afford to pay a fortune or even that he will bring enough exposure to attract another sponsor (more likely the first though).
I would reckon Loeb has the salary side of things nailed... he'll have his price and to be fair, people will pay it (if it's within their budget).

[stefanvv]

I would reckon Loeb has the salary side of things nailed... he'll have his price and to be fair, people will pay it (if it's within their budget).


So why didn't citroen paid it. Surely they can afford a few millions?!?

[T16]

So why didn't citroen paid it. Surely they can afford a few millions?!?

Not entirely sure, but I’m pretty sure it was one of two reasons, or a combination of both:
Their budget was dealt a massive blow when their main sponsor pulled out and they can’t justify his wages as a guest driver.
Or.
Ogier got a little irritated with the thought of Loeb in the team and, especially given Loeb’s performance in Spain, pulled rank.

Not sure how much you or I know about Citroen’s current budget, but I’m guessing Ogier takes up a fair old chunk of it and without a main sponsor, there’s not much left.

That sound reasonable?

[stefanvv]

I don't know. I personal would like to think out-of-the-box, money aside, when Loeb was asked who would drive for next year, if drive at all, his answer was straight when pointed his overalls. What could have changed his mind? Isn't it the possibility to win for another manufacturer as Ogier did, hmmm?

[T16]

I don't know. I personal would like to think out-of-the-box, money aside, when Loeb was asked who would drive for next year, if drive at all, his answer was straight when pointed his overalls. What could have changed his mind? Isn't it the possibility to win for another manufacturer as Ogier did, hmmm?

It’s clear they got rid of him.
He didn’t consciously ‘change his mind’ like you want to think. He had no choice.

[stefanvv]

He didn’t consciously ‘change his mind’ like you want to think. He had no choice.

Oooohhhh he has many choices, like in past several years. He didn't seem so determined to return in WRC even half way, but now he does more events with hyundai than ever with citroen after '12. That is a bell ringing.

[T16]

Oooohhhh he has many choices, like in past several years. He didn't seem so determined to return in WRC even half way, but now he does more events with hyundai than ever with citroen after '12. That is a bell ringing.

I mean he didn’t have a choice if if stayed at Citroen or not.
As he’s said himself, he’s got the buzz again after the win in Spain.

[Norm75]

Oooohhhh he has many choices, like in past several years. He didn't seem so determined to return in WRC even half way, but now he does more events with hyundai than ever with citroen after '12. That is a bell ringing.
He was a little busier from '12 up to the end of this year.
If Citroen hadn't closed the door on him, he would have done just as many rallies in a Citroen as he will in a Hyundai, no doubt.

[dimviii]

Isn't it the possibility to win for another manufacturer as Ogier did, hmmm?

no that stupid thinking isnt in his mind.
As they told you,hyundai deal was done after Ogiers veto to citroen,and Peugeot withdrawal from rally cross.

[denkimi]

I don't know. I personal would like to think out-of-the-box, money aside, when Loeb was asked who would drive for next year, if drive at all, his answer was straight when pointed his overalls. What could have changed his mind? Isn't it the possibility to win for another manufacturer as Ogier did, hmmm?
to me it seems they seriously pissed him off somehow.

[Norm75]

to me it seems they seriously pissed him off somehow.

All a bit speculative, conspiracy theory for me.
Maybe it just is what it is, and has been written in black and white.
Citroens main title pulls the plug leaving no funds for a third car forcing Loeb to look elsewhere (although, did not have to look as penasse was straight on the phone).

Ogier knows the game, he isn't going to be told to let Loeb win, he knows the shoe is on the other foot since they were teammates before. It's speculation to say he vetoed Loeb staying at Citroen. Maybe he has grown up, now he has been in a position where his teammates have had to ceed positions and upgrades to help his own title challenge.

[Rally Power]

All a bit speculative, conspiracy theory for me.
Maybe it just is what it is, and has been written in black and white.
Citroens main title pulls the plug leaving no funds for a third car forcing Loeb to look elsewhere (although, did not have to look as penasse was straight on the phone).

Ogier knows the game, he isn't going to be told to let Loeb win, he knows the shoe is on the other foot since they were teammates before. It's speculation to say he vetoed Loeb staying at Citroen. Maybe he has grown up, now he has been in a position where his teammates have had to ceed positions and upgrades to help his own title challenge.

Yep, it’s just speculation but one can wonder if the budget excuse makes sense, knowing that Reb Bull, Total and some other PSA partners were always eager to profit from Loeb’s image. If there was a strong will from Citroen, would it be that hard to get from PSA and their partners the extra budget to run Loeb on a handful of WRC events?

On the grown up remark, here’s Quesnel (a direct participant in 2011 incidents) view about Ogier/Loeb clash: http://www.sport365.fr/quesnel-affirme-que-loeb-a-impose-a-citroen-le-depart-dogier-1319505.html (the headline “Quesnel says that Loeb imposed on Citroen Ogier’s depart”, gives an idea of the content, which is even more explicit).

We may believe or not in Quesnel words, but if we relate them with Budar comments, before signing Ogier, about not wanting more part time runs from Loeb, we can figure that managing such huge egos under the same roof would still be a distraction for a team that needs to progress in a quiet and firm way, to show they can fight again for a WRC title.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So they lost Abu Dhabi money, but then they gained Red Bull... so what's the difference ?

Seems that the 3rd car was only ever going to be for a pay driver and Al Qassimi went with AD.

Østberg refused to or cant pay any more.

So Loeb was never going to drive.

[T16]

So they lost Abu Dhabi money, but then they gained Red Bull... so what's the difference ?

Seems that the 3rd car was only ever going to be for a pay driver and Al Qassimi went with AD.

Østberg refused to or cant pay any more.

So Loeb was never going to drive.

What information do you have on the budget that either sponsor brings?... how can you possibly know there is no difference between the two? Crazy!

Why would Citroen be in discussions with Loeb and even make it public they wanted him to drive?

I think you’re looking for something that isn’t there.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What information do you have on the budget that either sponsor brings?... how can you possibly know there is no difference between the two? Crazy!

Why would Citroen be in discussions with Loeb and even make it public they wanted him to drive?

I think you’re looking for something that isn’t there.

You dont know the figures either !

Red Bull sponsored all of M-Sport's 3 cars so they must pay pretty well.

[T16]

[QUOTE=Fast Eddie WRC;1202419]You dont know the figures either !
I know I don’t, but I’m not professing to know that there is no difference between what red bull and Abu-Dhabi paid, like you are.

So, I ask again, how do you know there’s no difference between what each sponsor brings? Or are you just guessing?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

[QUOTE=Fast Eddie WRC;1202419]You dont know the figures either !
I know I don’t, but I’m not professing to know that there is no difference between what red bull and Abu-Dhabi paid, like you are.

So, I ask again, how do you know there’s no difference between what each sponsor brings? Or are you just guessing?

I repeat you dont know either... but are still arguing like you do !

Based on RB helping M-Sport run 3 cars but Citroen can only afford two next year it seems they just wont pay and wanted a driver to.

[T16]

[QUOTE=T16;1202421]

I repeat you dont know either... but are still arguing like you do !

Based on RB helping M-Sport run 3 cars but Citroen can only afford two next year it seems they just wont pay and wanted a driver to.

Eddie... one more time... me saying I don’t know what the difference between the money AB and redbull bring to Citroen means I don’t know.
You saying there is no difference between what they both bring implies you do know.

I really hope you can grasp that.

[deephouse]

It's obviously that Citroen is everything else than proper commited team. Look Toyota and Hyundai. Are their programm fully payed just by Microsoft or Shell & Mobis... I don't think so. So what if Abu Dhabi is leaving. PSA could easily bring more money into the game but they are cheap like hell. I bet that there is no money even for staff so they could be more efficent. I would be laughing out loud if Redbull would step back from their backs and go anywhere else. I wonder if then would they just stop their programm in the middle of a fight.

And what is with their PH-Sport bromance story a few months ago about how they will lend one car for any driver who will want to drive it. I never seen it or heard of it again. Except if Ostberg was that driver.

[Tarmop]

How do you know how much money PSA has and can afford spending in motorsports? They bought Opel, which was a big investment itself and it didn`t stop there: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-peugeot-gm-opel-exclusive/exclusive-psa-seeks-opel-refund-from-gm-over-co2-emissions-idUSKBN1DT1NA

[doubled1978]

I think Budar was pretty clear earlier in the year, that there would be no part programme for Loeb in 2019. So if Loeb was firm on his desire to only do some rallies and not the whole championship then he effectively put himself out of seat at Citroen, not the other way round.
Equally, I am pretty sure the events he does with Hyundai will have to be the ones that work best for Hyundai rather than the ones he prefers, e.g. the ones where Dani is less effective. Monte is slightly odd in that it is nominally a tarmac event, but can be anything but if the weather is bad, and Dani is usually very slow in the changeable conditions. Sweden, Finland and Wales seem like shoe-ins, but the remaining two could anything really.

[Rally Power]

It's obviously that Citroen is everything else than proper commited team. Look Toyota and Hyundai. Are their programm fully payed just by Microsoft or Shell & Mobis... I don't think so. So what if Abu Dhabi is leaving. PSA could easily bring more money into the game but they are cheap like hell. I bet that there is no money even for staff so they could be more efficent. I would be laughing out loud if Redbull would step back from their backs and go anywhere else. I wonder if then would they just stop their programm in the middle of a fight.

I believe you’re hugely missing the point. Not running a 3rd car was, most likely, a political choice, not a budget issue. If Ogier and Loeb rivalry is still out of control, do you believe Citroen would say ‘for personal reasons, we cannot have Ogier and Loeb running together, so we’ve decided to let Loeb go?’…

Besides, after signing Ogier and Lappi, how can you still think they’re not serious about their WRC program? Actually, Loeb’s depart should be looked as a strong, yet delicate, signal of how serious they are, not the opposite.

Who knows, with Loeb now confirmed on another team, maybe some last minute deal with Ostberg or Breen can still be announced; it’d be just one more surprise on an already quite surprising silly season.

[mknight]

As I wrote a week ago I very much doubt we will see only 2 C3s at most rallies. On european ones I am quite sure that some people will get a drive.
It also does look like Loeb leaving was only partly about the budget for 3rd car with those Ogier comments.

[deephouse]

Then if it's right what are you all saying that Citroen politicaly get rid of Loeb was a little stupid. Hyundai had no 3rd driver confirmed and we all know that car is not that bad so obvious choice for him was right there (if Hyundai would not called him, mr. monsieur would call them and get in touch with them). What I'm saying is that Citroen is not realizing then this lineup now (I mean Neuville, Loeb) will pretty much beat Citroen everywhere and I mean one and only Ogier. But the real question is can the Hyundai beat Toyota?

[mknight]

As things look now on tarmac I would put my money on Ogier in Citroen over Loeb in Hyundai.

[dimviii]

As things look now on tarmac I would put my money on Ogier in Citroen over Loeb in Hyundai.

at dry tarmac yes

[deephouse]

As things look now on tarmac I would put my money on Ogier in Citroen over Loeb in Hyundai.

I'm not, I bet on Tanak and Toyota

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Just seen Colin Clark's vlog. He states the drivers without a 2019 seat need to wait for Abu Dhabi to come back (to Citroen) in 2020.

And he thinks Østberg will be in pole position as he thinks he will drive some rounds in the PH Sport C3 in 2019.

If this is right it seems short-sighted of Citroen not to have helped fund him an official third car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

CC also said Toyota are spending €70m a year and Hyundai similar.

And Citroen expect to beat them on the cheap with two cars and letting Loeb go ? I doubt it.

CC also stated Loeb didnt have a drive 'after Abu Dhabi withdrew'.

No mention of it being because of any two-Sebs politics..

[Tarmop]

He is not a God, speculating like us.

[T16]

CC also said Toyota are spending €70m a year and Hyundai similar.

And Citroen expect to beat them on the cheap with two cars and letting Loeb go ? I doubt it.

CC also stated Loeb didnt have a drive 'after Abu Dhabi withdrew'.

No mention of it being because of any two-Sebs politics..

What was the M-Sport budget when they beat Toyota and Hyundai for the last two years?

If they get the car right (and I’m very sceptical as to whether they can) then Ogier has a good shot at the WDC.

What’s more important these days for exposure? Hard to say from my POV as I’m into the sport so, for me, it’s which driver comes out on top, but similarly, the manufacturers have a great chance of excellent exposure if they can tell the wider world that they are manufacturers champions.

I guess that’s why there are two championships at stake.

On the Loeb situation, I honestly think it was a bit of Citroen lacking finance, but more a lot of Ogier not wanting him on the team.
Look at it this way: Loeb won in Spain and probably surprised a few with his pace, Then he starts making noises and tries to get six events.
I maybe wrong about this but, but I can’t imaging, for the life of me, that he would agree a deal where he has to concede a victory if Ogier can take max points... it’s just not in his blood.
So what’s Ogier going to do, knowing that he’s got a team mate that could potentially win any of the six rallies he enters (for fun) and that this team mate is going to take points is him, the guy Citroen want to win the WDC.

Citroen think about the ramifications and say, “sorry (big) Seb, but we can’t have you here playing by those rules”.

So Hyundai sign him on a two year deal and the team management are already making noises (I’ve read it somewhere) that they ‘will cross that bridge when they come to it’ regarding if Loeb moves aside for Neuville... I’ll bet a pound there is no way at all he will and his contract will say he doesn’t have to either.

Interesting to see how it pans out, but I have a feeling that if Loeb does very well on the Monte and in Sweden, then we will see him rapidly adding to his planned six events, because Hyundai must be, by now, getting a little frustrated that their golden boy seems to struggle to bring the championship home.

Interesting to see how he goes and what happens, but he’s definitely still got it.

[deephouse]

And maybe he will win his 10th title and send Ogier home not reaching his number. Man these frenchs...

[TWRC]

I might be wrong, but the way I see it is this: yes, after Abu Dhabi left, Citroën could have scraped together the money for Loeb's programme, but this might have meant less money for development and/or testing etc, and for sure Ogier wouldn't have approved this. Also, I don't think they should have kept Loeb only to keep him from going elsewhere, they did this in 2011, and we all know how well that story went long-term... So all in all, I hope this is the best solution for everybody involved: Citroën will have a very strong team with developments in every area, and Loeb gets to compete and experience how an other team works.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

All the talk was Loeb coming back after he won in the Citroen. Then Abu Dhabi pulled out and they said we cant afford a third car (for anyone).

Loeb has no RX drive and wants a few WRC to do. So he goes to Hyundai because they can afford to pay for a 3rd or even 4th car.

Loeb really wants to help a Korean manu & a Belgian driver win titles, rather a French team & driver ?

I cant believe that, but Citroen wont pay for a car so he had no choice.

[Tarmop]

He is a 44 year old rallydriver, as he has said many times before, the best of the sports for him. He wants to participipate somehow, but not full time, maybe a relationship that allows to try other FIA series` also. Or you would prefer sitting at home? Nothing complicated in that.

[deephouse]

With VW pulled out of WRX there is winning spot now free to anyone who is left. And last time I checked there were two Hyundai's at the field there. So do the math and there you go. It's that simple. So it will be benefit for him there too. Then he could attack full time in 2020 maybe at the WRC with two year contract. Except if he really do well at the first two rounds. Then the things could turn pretty quickly and then we will see if Loeb is defending his 9 year record and the greatest of all time. And then he will be 9 time (maybe 10 time) WRC title winner and maybe with two different manus.

[T16]

https://twitter.com/rpeltier/status/1074926224512815104?s=21

Apparently taken this morning. Abu-Dhabi back on the car?

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/rpeltier/status/1074926224512815104?s=21

Apparently taken this morning. Abu-Dhabi back on the car?

To me it feels like taping over the Abu Dhabi logos during the test was an immediate reaction, a protest by the team members. I wouldn't draw conclusions over this anymore.

[Allez Andruet]

Abu Dhabi sponsorship deal probably runs through the calender year 2018 anyway, so as AnttiL pointed out, no need for headlines here.

[T16]

Abu Dhabi sponsorship deal probably runs through the calender year 2018 anyway, so as AnttiL pointed out, no need for headlines here.

Wouldn't quite call it a headline TBH... more a simple observation.

[dnb]

People who really think 1) Loeb could win another title 2) Loeb would do a full season are dreaming or something. Never gonna happen.

[deephouse]

No he can't win the title this year, but he could ruin Ogier to become 7th time winner and defend his title record. Then if Ogier win it any way Loeb will hundred perecent sure be full time there in 2020 and Ogier will not retire after that.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Loeb's website:
"With Hyundai, my first mission will be to help them get the constructors title and support Thierry Neuville, the number 1 driver. The team's speech is clear and I'm fine with it.

I willingly accept this position number 2 or 3 and ride with less pressure, to please me, and in order to bring them points when I'm starting a rally.

This does not mean that I lost my soul as a competitor. Once the helmet on the head, I would give everything to make the best possible result, as I have always done, but the approach is different."

So he is happy to support Hyundai & Neuville, then I see no reason why he wouldn't have done the same for Citroen/Ogier.

The only reason was they wouldn't pay for a third car.

[Zeakiwi]

I find it difficult to believe sponsorship could not have been found for a third citroen for Loeb (share Ostberg/ Breen), especially when the amount of sponsorship is thrown at formula one back runners who only get limited coverage when they crash, power unit blows up, passed by a front runner etc.
Did citroen just not want to run a third car in different livery or is ogier costing them that much extra as a 3rd car?

[the sniper]

I find it difficult to believe sponsorship could not have been found for a third citroen for Loeb (share Ostberg/ Breen), especially when the amount of sponsorship is thrown at formula one back runners who only get limited coverage when they crash, power unit blows up, passed by a front runner etc.
Did citroen just not want to run a third car in different livery or is ogier costing them that much extra as a 3rd car?

It's unfathomable if this was genuinely a money issue. Collectively PSA, Total and Red Bull couldn't fund six rounds for Loeb? At the very least, what happened to the Peugeot WRX budget and RB/Total sponsorship money destined for the canned 2019 program?

[deephouse]

I find it difficult to believe sponsorship could not have been found for a third citroen for Loeb (share Ostberg/ Breen), especially when the amount of sponsorship is thrown at formula one back runners who only get limited coverage when they crash, power unit blows up, passed by a front runner etc.
Did citroen just not want to run a third car in different livery or is ogier costing them that much extra as a 3rd car?

You will see if anyone else will drive that third car. I don't think so. This Citroen ''project'' sounds like privater to me not Works team.

[denkimi]

It's unfathomable if this was genuinely a money issue. Collectively PSA, Total and Red Bull couldn't fund six rounds for Loeb? At the very least, what happened to the Peugeot WRX budget and RB/Total sponsorship money destined for the canned 2019 program?

of course they could, in the end 1 extra car doesn't have that big of an impact on their budget.

they just didn't want to.

[Allez Andruet]

of course they could, in the end 1 extra car doesn't have that big of an impact on their budget.

they just didn't want to.

Ofcourse it's about allocating your money and having a budget in the first place. PSA Group, with its €3B free cash flow, could easily run 10 cars in every single WRC round if they wanted to. But that's not how you run it.

[T16]

The only reason was they wouldn't pay for a third car.[/QUOTE]

Did you know Sebastien Loeb was the highest paid employee in the PSA group? (I'm not saying for the duration of his time there, but for a certain period of time he was).

He is one of France's greatest sportsman and he will generate an unrivalled amount of publicity for any team he drives for.

When you say Citroen wouldn't pay for a third car, have you considered why? Please don't say it is financial, because it most certainly isn't. They have chosen not to run him.

Let's see what happens the first time he's leading Neuville.... I really don't think he will just roll over and let him past.

Those words on his website are all nice and fluffy, but they may not mean much at all when the flag drops.

[Allez Andruet]

Did you know Sebastien Loeb was the highest paid employee in the PSA group? (I'm not saying for the duration of his time there, but for a certain period of time he was).
With Le Maestro's CV, that certainly doesn't come as a surprise. I bet Neuville is making more than most - if not all - of Hyundai's board members.


Let's see what happens the first time he's leading Neuville.... I really don't think he will just roll over and let him past.
Unless he's asked (you just don't give orders to a 9-time champ, do you?) to do so... And that's a big ask for Penasse and Nandan to proceed with. Although I have to say, that no matter how brilliant Loeb's 2018 in WRC was, I don't think we'll see him master Neuville in a Hyundai anytime soon. I'd be more than happy to be wrong with that prediction though :D

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Did you know Sebastien Loeb was the highest paid employee in the PSA group? (I'm not saying for the duration of his time there, but for a certain period of time he was).

He is one of France's greatest sportsman and he will generate an unrivalled amount of publicity for any team he drives for.

When you say Citroen wouldn't pay for a third car, have you considered why? Please don't say it is financial, because it most certainly isn't. They have chosen not to run him.

Let's see what happens the first time he's leading Neuville.... I really don't think he will just roll over and let him past.

Those words on his website are all nice and fluffy, but they may not mean much at all when the flag drops.

When CC first mooted the Loeb-to-Hyundai idea, he said another good reason was that it wouldnt cost that much. He didnt believe he commanded a huge salary.

Also, if Citroen just chose not to run Loeb, why arent they running a third factory car with another driver ?

It's money.

Remember they have only had two cars in the last two seasons. They even struggled to pay for proper testing for some events like GB..

[T16]

When CC first mooted the Loeb-to-Hyundai idea, he said another good reason was that it wouldnt cost that much. He didnt believe he commanded a huge salary.

Also, if Citroen just chose not to run Loeb, why arent they running a third factory car with another driver ?

It's money.

Remember they have only had two cars in the last two seasons. They even struggled to pay for proper testing for some events like GB..

a) I really can’t bring myself to take into account Colin Clarke’s guess work when it comes to salaries.

b)... and I appreciate this is my guess work, but Loeb the brand brings enough exposure to make it worthwhile for Citroen financially.

c) who on earth else would they put in a car for six events, that could, as he could, win most of them?

The problem isn’t cash, it’s that they would look stupid if he beat Ogier and took valuable points off his WDC campain.
Remember Ogier’s noises about guest drivers and how much of a bad idea they now are, just before PSA dropped Loeb? No coincidence.
And to be fair, I don’t blame them.

[Allez Andruet]

a) I really can’t bring myself to take into account Colin Clarke’s guess work when it comes to salaries.
With the more reliable source being...?


b)... and I appreciate this is my guess work, but Loeb the brand brings enough exposure to make it worthwhile for Citroen financially.
Just out of curiosity; what kind of calculation is this guess based on?

[deephouse]

Then the right thing to do now is to give everything and make sure that Citroen will not win any title next year.

[Tarmop]

Many (wo)men also get along fine with their exes, but they still are exes...
Money was ofc a partial reason and a nice excuse, but in the end relationships are more complicated.

First hint was Ogier complaining about only partial program (if it would help him next year, then he wouldn`t, probably) etc etc. Life is not black and white.

[T16]

With the more reliable source being...?


Just out of curiosity; what kind of calculation is this guess based on?


I am not saying there is someone out there, who currently discusses drivers wages and does so accurately. I am simply saying I don't think Colin Clarke is an accurate source. Are you?

Loeb has been PSA's golden boy for many years. They have found him a job, allowed him to come and go seemingly, to whichever series he wants and when he wants.
Like I said, guesswork on my part, but you have to be completely out of touch with motorsport to not see that PSA have got quite a lot out of him being on their payroll. So that's my calculation.

please excuse my dodgy use of quotations etc... I'm not too good at it.

[dnb]

I am not saying there is someone out there, who currently discusses drivers wages and does so accurately. I am simply saying I don't think Colin Clarke is an accurate source. Are you?

Loeb has been PSA's golden boy for many years. They have found him a job, allowed him to come and go seemingly, to whichever series he wants and when he wants.
Like I said, guesswork on my part, but you have to be completely out of touch with motorsport to not see that PSA have got quite a lot out of him being on their payroll. So that's my calculation.

please excuse my dodgy use of quotations etc... I'm not too good at it.
You said running Loeb 6 rounds would bring them enough exposure to be worthwhile. Basically sponsors would start offering millions to Citroen? Or the car sales would go way-way up?
IMO they wouldn't get even near that amount of money. And they already have one multiple world champion. But some could also think there's no room for 2 Sebs in one team or Hyundai just made a better offer. Anyway, I don't think Citroen deserves all the criticism. They are in WRC for a long run, I'm already happy that they didn't pull out, now with Ogier even better. I don't care much about the manu title though and probably many fans don't think it's a big thing. Next season definitely more interesting than 2018 and last time Citroen driver had a chance for WDC was a long time ago. Can't wait.

[T16]

You said running Loeb 6 rounds would bring them enough exposure to be worthwhile. Basically sponsors would start offering millions to Citroen? Or the car sales would go way-way up?
IMO they wouldn't get even near that amount of money. And they already have one multiple world champion. But some could also think there's no room for 2 Sebs in one team or Hyundai just made a better offer. Anyway, I don't think Citroen deserves all the criticism. They are in WRC for a long run, I'm already happy that they didn't pull out, now with Ogier even better. I don't care much about the manu title though and probably many fans don't think it's a big thing. Next season definitely more interesting than 2018 and last time Citroen driver had a chance for WDC was a long time ago. Can't wait.

Yes, I do think Loeb carries a lot of value, especially if he wins some of the six rounds.. Citroen we’re making noises about using him this year until recently.

Personally, like I said above, I’m not blaming or criticising Citroen, I think two sebs in that team is one too many, especially now Seb 2 has seen that Seb 1 is still pretty tasty behind the wheel.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Loeb says he doesnt think he will be faster than the current driver's. And he did win in Spain with an inspired tyre choice, not by dominating the whole rally.

"I stopped rally competition for more than five years. I don't have any more the rhythm of the current drivers, or their knowledge of the rallies in general."

[dimviii]

The WRC's champion, Sebastien Ogier, acknowledged that he does not want to be treated as a "number one" driver in Citroën, unless the development of the season requires it. According to the French, the M-Sport strategies used in 2018 are not part of their plans for the first rallies of the year. The opinion was shared by his new partner, Esapekka Lappi. The Finn confessed that he feels a "number two" driver, but warned that he will fight to subdue the Gaul while there are conditions of equality.
"I do not want any number one status on the team," said Ogier at Autosport. "For me, we would have to have the same opportunities as long as we both have equal chances to fight for the title. If one pilot is able to do it and the other is not, then it is logical to give some support. But at this moment we will start the season with the same opportunities. Esapekka (Lappi) has talent and will be able to bring interesting things from her old team. "
During the past season, Ogier was benefited by the help of his teammates to obtain the drivers' title. His former M-Sport colleagues, Elfyn Evans and Teemu Suninen, complied with numerous team orders that were crucial in some rallies as the fight for the championship came to an end. However, the Frenchman does not want to repeat this context, at least at the beginning of this year.
"It is true that there were times when I received help from my teammates," said the Citroën driver. "But that's not the way I want to start this season. My objective is to win the title on my own, since in most of my career it has been that way ".
On the other hand, Esapekka Lappi joined the double chevron brand with the consent that the manufacturer will deposit his maximum options to the title in Sebastien Ogier. Despite this, the Finn is not willing to benefit the French, unless the development in the fight for the championship requires it.
"It's pretty clear who is number one and who is number two," said Lappi. "Until now, I do not know how Seb (Ogier) will act. We'll see what happens as the season progresses. If I am not in the fight for the victory of the general classification, it is quite clear that I will give him my space as his colleagues in M-Sport have done. It's part of the game. But, if I am a leader in Monte Carlo and he is behind, I will not give him any space, since we will start the season at the same level ".
After his first tests, Lappi was more confident in his decision to have moved to the Citroën team. "The handling of the C3 is very good and if we improve some details, it will be the fastest car without any doubt," said the Finn in Rallye Magazin. So far, Lappi only knew the Toyota Yaris WRC. After making his first kilometers on the C3, the Nordic pilot noted the biggest differences between the Japanese car and the French.
"The view from the Citroën is smaller, because the windshield is narrower and the hood is very high. On the other hand, the front of the Toyota has a much more pronounced descent. So you have to sit higher on the C3, "explained Lappi. In addition to this, the Finn was impressed with the driver of the Citroën. "The engine has more power at high rpm, although the Toyota engine has better stability. In terms of power transmission, the Citroën is clearly ahead. On land it seems that we have noticed a great potential that we want to take advantage of ", concluded Lappi.

http://motorboxradio.com.ar/2019/01/08/ogier-y-lappi-quieren-enfrentarse-sin-beneficios/

[dimviii]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190111/db547a2420cf30f5c4c9fcaaf3eee2a7.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190111/0361b08f25a02257937174ba179769be.jpg

[deephouse]

Oh my. Esapekka in those colors look ridiculous.

[EstWRC]

yeah, even Ingrassia is weird to look at

reminded me circus clowns at first sight (i hope i didnt offend anyone with this)

[er88]

The red army are (properly) back

[EstWRC]

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49949690_10155983115057057_337824045691043840_o.jp g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-arn2-1.xx&oh=2b69a440ead5174b482c8ccdc9cd2f7f&oe=5CD330C9
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwtLoCsWsAIEbfg.jpg

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwtTgy5WwAIUzXw.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwtTgyuWsAAXm9x.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwtTge9WkAA40Vk.jpg

[denkimi]

they kinda recycled the ds3 design.

https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/car/4597/Citroen-DS3-WRC-36228.jpg

[mknight]

I like the front a lot. I the rear the blue bumper seems to ruin it a bit, but the pics don't show it well.

[Mirek]

they kinda recycled the ds3 design.

Not really, this time they don't carry a big Czech flag on the car like they did in 2011 :D

[EstWRC]

oh boy...weirdly this livery makes it look more like a R5 car than WRC to my eye. it doesnt looks so massive and agressive as others

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwtYqxjXgAEQ6yL.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwtYqxrWwAAD-x2.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwtYqxkWkAUfGMl.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwtYqxjXcAU4bG-.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

/\ /\
C3 in gravel-spec on a tarmac road doesnt help it in those photos.

[Eli]

they kinda recycled the ds3 design.

https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/car/4597/Citroen-DS3-WRC-36228.jpg

I prefer this design with the door handle being the same color as that same part of the livery....

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Citroen 'has to win' WRC after signing Sebastien Ogier, says boss.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/140996/citroen-has-to-win-after-signing-ogier

[Mirek]

I like that Budar doesn't speak some ambiguous political nonsense but gives himself a clear and publicly presented goal to win the championship. Thumbs-up from me and good luck!

[steve.mandzij]

I was thinking: is Lappi the first Finnish factory Citroen driver? The only other guy I could think of was Kimi, but as far as I remember he only had a run in the Junior B-team and then set up his own team in the DS3, right?

[the sniper]

I was thinking: is Lappi the first Finnish factory Citroen driver? The only other guy I could think of was Kimi, but as far as I remember he only had a run in the Junior B-team and then set up his own team in the DS3, right?

Hirvonen. ;)

[N.O.T]

it would be quite the embarassment if citroen is the first car that Ogier does not win the title in the B.L era.

[steve.mandzij]

Hirvonen. ;)Oh of course! D: I really need to up my trivia game...

[Allez Andruet]

Hirvonen. ;)
And both Pauli and Henri Toivonen way before him.

[Rally Power]

I like that Budar doesn't speak some ambiguous political nonsense but gives himself a clear and publicly presented goal to win the championship. Thumbs-up from me and good luck!

Yep, it’s great to see Citroen motivated and ready to give a proper fight, but they’re not runing alone so no one can promise they’ll eventually win a title (or even both, if we take Budar’s words too literally). For now I’d be happy to see them being able to figth for the win at any event, something they’ve missed for a long time. Fingers crossed!
Yesterday talk here: https://youtu.be/xznDf5zRDK8?t=9788

[EstWRC]

i dont know if this was already posted here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz3ApCL6GuU


looks so much better with daylight through camera

[tommeke_B]

Anyone knows an explanation for "1919" on the back?

[AnttiL]

Anyone knows an explanation for "1919" on the back?

That's when the Citroen company started, a hundred years ago. Also explains the retro font.

[bearclaw]

Anyone knows an explanation for "1919" on the back?

…citroen was founded in march 1919 – therefore 100 year anniversary for them.

[bearclaw]

That's when the Citroen company started, a hundred years ago. Also explains the retro font.

..oh sorry, you were faster...

[dimviii]

is it just me only thinks that Jacksons twits last year and this year just put pressure at drivers?


Linda Jackson

New year, new look for #C3WRC, new crews: all is set to tackle the new season, pass the 100 mark in WRC wins and fight for the world title. Stay focused on preparing #RallyMonteCarlo, guys. And see you in Gap very soon!

[Steve Boyd]

The Citroen car company was founded in 1919 so they are celebrating their centenary this year.
(too slow - again! - must read all posts before replying)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Seems like a Barn to me NOT

https://twitter.com/rallygif/status/1085091047737303041?s=21

[RS]

/\ /\
C3 in gravel-spec on a tarmac road doesnt help it in those photos.

Why would they do that?! It’s a hideous enough car as it is before presenting it in gravel spec too.

[Rally Power]

That's when the Citroen company started, a hundred years ago. Also explains the retro font.

Yep, for sure André Citroen, the founder, would love to see a 6 times WDC driving one of his cars! Citroen was known as an innovator, clearly ahead of his time both in the industrial and in the commercial sides. He started manufacturing V shape gears (which inspired Citroen’s logo) before WW1 and during the war he built a highly efficient projectile factory, converting it to a car plant soon after the war end. In 1919 he was ready to launch the new car brand, which become immediately popular and France best selling manu during the 20’s and 30’s. Adding a WRC title to the brand 100 anniversary would be brilliant; fingers crossed!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Anyone quote this ? Ive run out of articles...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/feature/8766/why-ogier-citroen-return-is-not-a-homecoming

[T16]

Anyone quote this ? Ive run out of articles...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/feature/8766/why-ogier-citroen-return-is-not-a-homecoming

It's a good article. About him, Ingrassia and M-Sport etc... bit of back slapping

[deephouse]

Citroen Racing

''Proud to support our Citroën customers: Mads Østberg & Co-driver Torstein Eriksen will race in WRC2 Pro & behind the wheel of the #C3R5 - from Rally Sweden.''


Sounds like he actually pay that he can drive that car. Citroen then take it like Pro entry... With every minute they try to prove that they are team of nobodies, which some call that for Toyota.

[Myrvold]

Wouldn't surprise me. Once a pay driver...

[EstWRC]

Lappi comparing the cars again https://translate.google.ee/translate?hl=et&sl=fi&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallit.fi%2Fesapekka-lappi-vertaa-citroenin-ja-toyotan-wrc-autoja-peruskielella-se-on-kierroskone%2F

[AL14]

Lappi is being very cautious on his statements. He said that this year is more of learning than winning, and that the car "has potential" on different point of views.
I don't know if it is just part of his character, or he is not liking the Citroen behaviour and setup so far.

[dodge33cymru]

Citroen Racing

''Proud to support our Citroën customers: Mads Østberg & Co-driver Torstein Eriksen will race in WRC2 Pro & behind the wheel of the #C3R5 - from Rally Sweden.''


Sounds like he actually pay that he can drive that car. Citroen then take it like Pro entry... With every minute they try to prove that they are team of nobodies, which some call that for Toyota.
Pay driving isn't black and white. Take a look at 'privateer' entries in GT racing for clues as to all the different steps of grey. Here's the bill for the car. But Citroen are likely paying all entry fees. Citroen Sport logos on the car? That's a discount. Using Citroen's partner suppliers? That could be arranged at a good rate ;) Perhaps they're running the car for free? Perhaps they're reducing the cost in order to get him onboard? Maybe Citroen Norway are contributing.

Audi in GT racing (and others) have a Customer Racing badged programme, but their works team runs their works drivers in the big races at Nurburgring and Spa. The 'customer racing' banner is because they use those wins to advertise the car to customers around the world. I've no idea, but Citroen may be doing the same.

M-Sport's WRC2 Pro programme is also being supported by pay drivers, and I'd argue Citroen have got a better driver to showcase their R5 than Ford as things stand.

Heck, Skoda's Pro entry in Monte Carlo and Sweden appears to be supporting privateer entrants.

[skarderud]

Citroen Racing

''Proud to support our Citroën customers: Mads Østberg & Co-driver Torstein Eriksen will race in WRC2 Pro & behind the wheel of the #C3R5 - from Rally Sweden.''


Sounds like he actually pay that he can drive that car. Citroen then take it like Pro entry... With every minute they try to prove that they are team of nobodies, which some call that for Toyota.As far as i know, he don't pay to drive, but he don't get paid eighter.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Rally Power]

It seems to be a semi-official program, a bit like last year Lefebvre WRC2 entry; this time it'll be DG Sport runing the car, instead of PHSport. Citroen, Total and Michelin will continue to support: http://www.dgsportcompetition.eu/en/node/225

[AMSS]

Did anyone see what damper supplier Citroen uses this year?

[AnttiL]

Lappi telling a Finnish magazine, translated by me


Now I go even more nose first, because this car works differently. Diffs and brake ramp(?) work for the first time in my life. In Skoda and Toyota left and right side didn't brake the same way

It has caused some problems having driven six years on a car where these things don't work with the same sense as in this car. Left hand braking to tie the car down comes from the spine and it does not work at all with this car. I had to change my driving style in Sweden when we noticed from the data that I tied too much with the brake. The diff goes onto the brake ramp which lessens the speed and decreases acceleration at the exit of the corner

https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi-joutunut-muuttamaan-ajotyyliaan-citroenilla-toimivat-ensimmaista-kertaa-kunnolla-elamassani/

It's interesting he says left foot braking does not work with the C3. If I remember correctly, Mikkelsen had problems with the car because he doesn't left foot brake...

Also one thing I forgot to report from Rally Sweden, at the finish line of some stage Lappi told Ferm "you cannot take this car in the fast corners like you could on the Toyota..."

[mknight]

Lappi telling a Finnish magazine, translated by me



https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi-joutunut-muuttamaan-ajotyyliaan-citroenilla-toimivat-ensimmaista-kertaa-kunnolla-elamassani/

It's interesting he says left foot braking does not work with the C3. If I remember correctly, Mikkelsen had problems with the car because he doesn't left foot brake...

Also one thing I forgot to report from Rally Sweden, at the finish line of some stage Lappi told Ferm "you cannot take this car in the fast corners like you could on the Toyota..."

The comment about Mikkelsen was for Sardinia, where he started with just a few kms of test without any changes done to the car. Supposedly they changed some dif maps after that and in Poland it was mostly ok. But Meeke who does left-foot brake was driving the car after that half way into 2018 and Østberg who I believe also does it drove it also for most of 2018. Ogier supposedly doesn't left foot brake (that's where Mikkelsen has it from). Latvala also tried to follow Ogier but it didn't go well in 2016 and he changed back.

[Allez Andruet]

Also one thing I forgot to report from Rally Sweden, at the finish line of some stage Lappi told Ferm "you cannot take this car in the fast corners like you could on the Toyota..."

There were interesting bits in Sweden indeed. Like at the end of SS2. I don't know how to translate mä en tykkää tästä autosta kaasulla, se heti suoristuu toi keula properly, i.e. to maintain its original meaning, but obviously EP didn't like how the front behaved when trying to control the car (at the exit of a corner?) with right foot.

[racerx1979]

If you watch Ogier on-boards he is doing very little LFB compared to the other guys. Maybe Seb O has already figured this out...

[mknight]

If you watch Ogier on-boards he is doing very little LFB compared to the other guys. Maybe Seb O has already figured this out...

Just two posts above....

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/d/2019/03/09/citroen-wechselt-von-oehlins-zu-reiger/

Citroen apparently switched from Öhlins to Reiger in Mexico

[Andre Oliveira]

And Ogier wanted Sachs ZF instead Reiger in M-Sport Ford.

[Mirek]

And Ogier wanted Sachs ZF instead Reiger in M-Sport Ford.

He used Sachs only on asphalt, I think.

[denkimi]

I wonder if there's really that much difference between al those shock manufacturers. I can't image that some have secrets that others don't have knowledge about. Or do some have patents?

[mknight]

I don't think it's about being "better" it's more that either the driver knows how they behave which gives him confidence or that their characteristics fit the characteristics of the car.

[dimviii]

I wonder if there's really that much difference between al those shock manufacturers. I can't image that some have secrets that others don't have knowledge about. Or do some have patents?

there are differences.Plenty of times,not small ones.

[Mirek]

They have all their own know how and strategies and moreover they have to deal with different mindsets and strategies of each manufacturter. Fortunately the number of variations in the whole system (car+driver+conditions) seems to be infinite.

[AnttiL]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/142066/citroen-boss-clarifies-wrc-future-stance

[denkimi]

there are differences.Plenty of times,not small ones.

like what? i have not much technical knowledge about shocks, but i can't think of anything that would make them behave in a way that the others can't copy.

[Mirek]

like what? i have not much technical knowledge about shocks, but i can't think of anything that would make them behave in a way that the others can't copy.

One hint. If you copy others you are always like a railway carriage in the train. You can do what you want but you will never come to the railway station ahead of the engine.

[br21]

Ogier used ZF in Fiesta on gravel also, now (2019) it's only ZF who delivers dampers for Fiesta WRC, both gravel and tarmac.
Citroen tested different dampers in their C3 on tests before the season, seems Reiger fits them best. And it can be because of many reasons, as every top damper brand is different than the other, but they all are top. No sense to go into too many details here.

[dimviii]

like what? i have not much technical knowledge about shocks, but i can't think of anything that would make them behave in a way that the others can't copy.

of course they can behave different at extreme conditions/temps/very rough gravel etc.
Another point is how sensitive are, when you change settings/clicks

[Rallyper]

Another point is how driver feels for the setup or the cars behaviour. His experience etz. There´s not one answer to which setup suits drivers best. Not even brand on suspension...

[AnttiL]

It's worth changing from damper company A to B if the driver knows how the B dampers work instead of having to test all 50 models from A.

[Mirek]

It's worth changing from damper company A to B if the driver knows how the B dampers work instead of having to test all 50 models from A.

Changing dampers may lead to much more radical change in the whole car setup. Each case is different and IMHO there is no such golden rule.

[AnttiL]

Changing dampers may lead to much more radical change in the whole car setup. Each case is different and IMHO there is no such golden rule.

Yeah I know, but if the driver is facing a new car and 50 dampers he doesn't know or a new car and 50 dampers he knows, the latter solution seems more safe...

[AMSS]

Ogier used ZF in Fiesta on gravel also, now (2019) it's only ZF who delivers dampers for Fiesta WRC, both gravel and tarmac.
Citroen tested different dampers in their C3 on tests before the season, seems Reiger fits them best. And it can be because of many reasons, as every top damper brand is different than the other, but they all are top. No sense to go into too many details here.

Will the new R5 Fiesta be on what dampers?

[br21]

Will the new R5 Fiesta be on what dampers?

Still Reiger (for the moment), but way better than current ones.

[N.O.T]

It's worth changing from damper company A to B if the driver knows how the B dampers work instead of having to test all 50 models from A.

Different car chassis behave differently to different dumpers...

[janvanvurpa]

Still Reiger (for the moment), but way better than current ones.

Just curious, what's different?
..And can you say how much damper travel for gravel the units have?
Asking for a friend.

[Mirek]

..And can you say how much damper travel for gravel the units have?

I don't know the figure for Fiesta but officially it's 275 mm for Polo R5. I assume it is similar.

[br21]

Just curious, what's different?
..And can you say how much damper travel for gravel the units have?
Asking for a friend.

current spec:
front has 248mm of stroke before rubber bumpstop engaged
rear has 275mm in the same conditions.
Motion ratio is 1,1 so you can calculate wheels stroke

[dimviii]

more news about c3 suspension
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/142257/ogier-pushing-for-citroen-suspension-overhaul

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Colin Clark's new vlog suggests a third car is possible for Citroen if they find themselves in a good position in the Manus ch'ship.

And Breen is keeping match-fit with Irish and Italian events...

[cali]

Colin Clark's new vlog suggests a third car is possible for Citroen if they find themselves in a good position in the Manus ch'ship.

And Breen is keeping match-fit with Irish and Italian events...Oh yes, the kitchen table...

[mknight]

Colin Clark's new vlog suggests a third car is possible for Citroen if they find themselves in a good position in the Manus ch'ship.

And Breen is keeping match-fit with Irish and Italian events...

1. It's just his pure speculation. While not impossible it will likely need extra funding, cause Ogier will not want to move any development money.

2. Østberg has been faster and a more reliable point scorer for Citroen in 2nd half of 2018 and he still works for them. So he is likely first pick for gravel.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Clark says Citroen actually covet the Manus ch'ship more than the Driver's... and it wouldnt cost that much more to run a 3rd car.

I think its entirely possible a 3rd car for the second half of 2019.

[er88]

Clark says Citroen actually covet the Manus ch'ship more than the Driver's...

Clearly that's not true, use your head. If that was true they'd start the season with 3 cars - but they've made it clear Ogier and the drivers title is what they want!

If they can win the manufacturers as well, ofcourse they'll look at ways to do it with Breen or Ostberg later in the year. This isn't the same Citroen as 2003.

[AnttiL]

Clark says Citroen actually covet the Manus ch'ship more than the Driver's...

Colin may think so but Pierre Budar has said drivers titles are their target of the season

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Drivers title may have been the priority at the start as they wanted to save money.

But that can change if they see a chance of the Manus. It is obviously more valuable for them to win as a team.

We shall see.

[Mirek]

But that can change if they see a chance of the Manus. It is obviously more valuable for them to win as a team.

Why? Since when do the public recognize more the team title than the driver's title? I'd say nearly everyone following any motorsport at least a bit knows the name of the WDC but only the hard fans know who was the WMC.

[TypeR]

It doesn't matter, who remembers the WDC or WMC, its the money what matters.. and manus title is where the team gets the most money

[Mirek]

The most important (by faaaaaar) is the marketing value of the title, i.e. its public recognition.

[the sniper]

It doesn't matter, who remembers the WDC or WMC, its the money what matters.. and manus title is where the team gets the most money

That's the case in Formula 1 certainly, but... Do the WRC manufactures even get any money from WRC Promoter for winning the WRC Manufactures title? I've never heard it talked about in relation to the WRC.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Why? Since when do the public recognize more the team title than the driver's title? I'd say nearly everyone following any motorsport at least a bit knows the name of the WDC but only the hard fans know who was the WMC.

So why are Hyundai so desperate to win the Manufacturer's title ?

[Mirek]

So why are Hyundai so desperate to win the Manufacturer's title ?

They have been around for quite some time and haven't won any title. And they badly need to win anything. The manufacturing title looks to be the easier goal because they don't actually need to defeat Ogier and Tänak to achieve it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They have been around for quite some time and haven't won any title. And they badly need to win anything. The manufacturing title looks to be the easier goal because they don't actually need to defeat Ogier and Tänak to achieve it.

They even brought in Loeb and have switched driver's around for the best combination on each rally. It matters.

[Mirek]

How about to read what I wrote before you quote it?

[Tarmop]

Well, Mirek just said, why it matters to them, who don`t start a season with a two car team, one driven by a reigning 6x WDC. It is simply the second best thing, when the first one can`t be achieved. To be fair, Loeb was brought in to grab points from Tänak/ Ogier...like M-Sport and Toyota drivers helped/help their lead drivers and so help Neuville with his WDC.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Manufacturers title is for Manufacturers so therefore of course it means something to them.

Hyundai have always been after it and now they are desperate for it.

Citroen will want to win it too and I think will adapt to 3 cars if they see thay are in the fight.

[Mirek]

Manufacturers title is for Manufacturers so therefore of course it means something to them.

Hyundai have always been after it and now they are desperate for it.

Citroen will want to win it too and I think will adapt to 3 cars if they see thay are in the fight.

Of course it means something. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.

The thing is that you claimed it was more valuable than the driver's championship and that's not true.

[Rally Power]

(…) But that can change if they see a chance of the Manus. It is obviously more valuable for them to win as a team.

(…) I'd say nearly everyone following any motorsport at least a bit knows the name of the WDC but only the hard fans know who was the WMC.

Why not to accept that both titles are equally important? Manus rally involvement is due to brand awareness among the general public, not among motorsport fans. Average Joe only remotely knows what Rally is and can hardly remember one driver name.

What mostly matters to the manus is to show that they’re able to be successfull on this tought sport in order to provide better products to Joe; eventually any WRC title will serve to underline that success.

[er88]

Why not to accept that both titles are equally important? Manus rally involvement is due to brand awareness among the general public, not among motorsport fans. Average Joe only remotely knows what Rally is and can hardly remember one driver name.

What mostly matters to the manus is to show that they’re able to be successfull on this tought sport in order to provide better products to Joe; eventually any WRC title will serve to underline that success.If this year the manufacturers was just as important or even more important, they would be running 3 cars and the team principal wouldn't have said they are focusing on the drivers title for Ogier. It's really quite simple!!!!!!! Jeeeez...

And that doesn't mean the manufacturers won't become an important target if it's winnable with an additional car, but it's clearly not the priority now or at the start of the season.

Don't even know why it's such a debate, when it's Eddie just not engaging his brain again...

[Rally Power]

(...) Don't even know why it's such a debate (...)

It’s really quite simple, either: at some point the debate was no longer just about Citroen (or Hyundai) current situation but on the general value of drivers vs manus title.

Back to the thread; some curious info about Lappi and Ogier on Citroen media site: https://media.citroenracing.com/en/tour-de-corse-notebook-citro%C3%ABn-secrets

[Norm75]

If this year the manufacturers was just as important or even more important, they would be running 3 cars and the team principal wouldn't have said they are focusing on the drivers title for Ogier. It's really quite simple!!!!!!! Jeeeez...

And that doesn't mean the manufacturers won't become an important target if it's winnable with an additional car, but it's clearly not the priority now or at the start of the season.

Don't even know why it's such a debate, when it's Eddie just not engaging his brain again...
Thing is, if a manufacturer wins the world manufacturers title, they can plaster it on every car advert in the press. A bit like Lancia used to have a wreath with every year they had won the wmc at the bottom of their adverts, albeit years ago.
Of course, they can put the name and face of the wrc driver champion on their ads, but as Rally power says, it isn't going to mean much to the average Joe.

[T16]

I think it’s got to the point where the drivers title is important to the drivers themselves and to the fans, but the manufacturers can probably get a bit more mileage out of the manufacturer’s championship, in terms of marketing....but only in some countries. i.e. Ogier winning is a massive deal in France (to the general public), but not the UK, but Citroen may get more out of marketing that they are WMCs to the general UK public than if Ogier wins a title.
I think this is an evolving change we are seeing and it certainly contrasts the worth of a Driver’s championship back in the days of McRae etc.
I guess either way though, a manufacturer still gets to claim ‘we are world rally champions’ whether they have won a WDC or a WMC.... and that’s probably good for manufacturer involvement as two teams can potentily get bragging rights.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If this year the manufacturers was just as important or even more important, they would be running 3 cars and the team principal wouldn't have said they are focusing on the drivers title for Ogier. It's really quite simple!!!!!!! Jeeeez...

And that doesn't mean the manufacturers won't become an important target if it's winnable with an additional car, but it's clearly not the priority now or at the start of the season.

Don't even know why it's such a debate, when it's Eddie just not engaging his brain again...

Usual bullshit from Er88 when its a perfectly debatable subject and a reason why Citroen could soon employ a 3rd car (and out of work driver).

[AnttiL]

Usual bullshit from Er88 when its a perfectly debatable subject and a reason why Citroen could soon employ a 3rd car (and out of work driver).

It's still only your fantasy that Citroen would add a third car, and another fantasy that the driver would be Breen. They would for sure rather use Østberg who's doing testing work for them.

[er88]

Usual bullshit from Er88 when its a perfectly debatable subject and a reason why Citroen could soon employ a 3rd car (and out of work driver).Whatever, you started this by claiming after listening to Clark that Citroen covet the manufacturers more than the drivers.

People have just told you that's not true, and why. Even using evidence such as what Pierre Budar has told you about where their priorities lie. Even if he didn't explicitly say it, you'd just have to look at the team line-up and number of cars to realise that...

Again, nobody has said they wouldn't add a third car later in the year if the chance is there to win the manufacturers, but it still won't be their priority and it's still not something on their agenda.

[racerx1979]

It's still only your fantasy that Citroen would add a third car, and another fantasy that the driver would be Breen. They would for sure rather use Østberg who's doing testing work for them.

Especially if they decide to add a third car on the second half... Gravel. Breen was 7th in Germany last year about 30 secs behind Andreas M. I think Mads would easily be choice even if he was not doing any testing with the team. Breens only chance may be with M-Sport...

[AnttiL]

Citroen is the only team to be on the podium every rally this year – always first or second. In 2017 they managed only three podiums and five in 2018.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

And 4 rallies gone and Citroen still 2nd in the Championship.

[mknight]

Well yes but after this performance they will surely use any extra funds to also work on the tarmac car before Germany rather than on running a 3rd car.

[Eli]

Citroen is the only team to be on the podium every rally this year – always first or second. In 2017 they managed only three podiums and five in 2018.

Citroen is the only team to have Ogier this year ;) with all due respect to Lappi.

[AnttiL]

Citroen is the only team to have Ogier this year ;) with all due respect to Lappi.

But Lappi is the only "second" driver to be on the podium this year, if you consider Evans as M-Sport first driver.

[dimviii]

4787/5000
Can we imagine seeing the new aero kit for the end of the year at least?

"At this point, I can not give you a date. According to the results that will be obtained in tests. In function, one will homologate or not. The aero is a particular area, because it is a long job and requires a lot of calculations and possibly the wind tunnel. You have to make drawings, molds, then pieces and try to make them fit so that everything works in all conditions. So it is something that is very expensive, in terms of time and approval also in number of jokers. It is an extremely sensitive subject so I do not want to give a specific date. We will not go if we are not convinced that this is not the right solution and that it is validated. "
Especially when Sebastien asks suspension evolutions, it can complicate this arrival of the aero?

"It's not antinomic. But if we also work on suspension jokers, we will not have them on the aero, so we will have to make choices. We work on several chapters and we have to work well to use the jokers available wisely. Finally, it is not easy to make a commitment on a date, and it does not bring us much. "
Now, go to South America. What is the test program?

"In Portugal, we have a pretty heavy program next week, and we will probably try the aero again. We will necessarily work on the Argentina / Chile duo with two days per driver. As there is a link between the two rallies, we must in particular renew the same dampers, we must have a setup almost identical between the two events.
The aero is predominant now and one wonders how much?

"We have seen the importance of the aero on these new cars, it is part of the big differences between the old and the new WRC. Obviously, the higher the speed of passage and the more important it is. We tried to evaluate in tests many times the importance of the Earo, and each time, it is very impacting on performance, both on land and asphalt. What is complicated on earth is that you have to manage to make the aero run with changes of attitude that are much more marked than on asphalt. On the asphalt, the car has a more constant attitude, and in the ground, it is necessary that the aero works when the car has tancage, when it sits or when it crashes, but also when it is skidding . So it's very complicated to have aero parts that go beyond a straight line, we often destroy the aero in these possibilities. The hard part is to make the parts work in all the attitudes of the car. It's specific to the rally. Obviously, they do extraordinary things in circuit but with cars still stuck to the ground. "
Does Citroën work in the wind tunnel?

"Of course, we did that especially in England. We have a wind tunnel in the Paris region but which is not very suitable. "
How many people work on the air just?

"It's hard to divide the staff like that. We have size means we will say but we can not do what we want either, we have financial limits like everyone, unfortunately and fortunately, because it avoids us to scatter on all topics without too much reflect.

Basically, on a WRC type program, we are about 110 people. "
Finally and finally, a question about Esapekka. Is his attitude, rather casual and uncomfortable, normal and not good for the image of Citroen? Can this work?

"First, I get to know Esapekka and Janne well, I know how they feel. I do not take it for spite, but at the same time, when you do not make a good time and that it does not go, his attitude seems normal to me. On a rally like this where he had performance problems and his teammate too, we quickly realized that it was a problem of settings on the car and he is very disappointed, because we were mistaken collectively, the pilots were also present during the tests. And he's part of the collective. It is his personality to express it like that, again, we can not expect him to be cheerful and enthusiastic at the arrival of special as in Corsica. I do not mind if it stays measured in what he says. I know it might be more exciting for you if he made thunderous statements but he really wants to convey his disappointment. This is the intention he wants to pass. He's also a laid-back boy, but in all his attitudes, even when he wins, it's the famous Finnish phlegm. "

https://www.rallye-sport.fr/budar-on-sest-trompe-collectivement-2-2/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lappi's car after Argentina

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5PlGChXkAIvcbF.jpg