Citroen WRT

[wrc2017]

We all know Meeke complained about the C3 handling (not only in Sweden) but I very much doubt he revealed team private matters in public, like the refusal of changing set up you’ve mentioned. Besides, who can seriously believe that the main test driver, that actively helped to develop the car for more than 6 months, was not heard by the tech staff? Probably only brit fans and journos in a state of denial.

Is that the same tech staff have been recently sacked? Apparently....

[KiwiWRCfan]

Martin Holmes on Citroen jokers http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/11558-mikkelsen-input-leads-to-citroen-c3-wrc-changes

[rhm]

Torque split is changing for Poland from 30/70 to 50/50. Will be interesting to see how Mikkelsen gets on.
Does anyone have any information on the torque splits other teams are using?

[tomhlord]

Torque split is changing for Poland from 30/70 to 50/50. Will be interesting to see how Mikkelsen gets on.
Does anyone have any information on the torque splits other teams are using?

A new rear differential rail and a modified torque split between the front and rear. Mikkelsen has the best chance yet of a Citroen result. Makes it a little odd that Meeke wasn't able to test the new parts.

[AnttiL]

Torque split is changing for Poland from 30/70 to 50/50.

Where is this information from?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

"Real progress..."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130442/mikkelsen-meeke-and-i-couldve-won-wrc-title

[EstWRC]

i posted it in news thread too but anyway....very strong words from him...if he can get a podium on PURE pace this weekend then he is backing his words but if he finishes outside TOP6 again then it doesnt do any good for his reputation.

but we will see.

[Mirek]

Torque split is changing for Poland from 30/70 to 50/50. Will be interesting to see how Mikkelsen gets on.
Does anyone have any information on the torque splits other teams are using?

Are You sure about that? 30/70 for gravel doesn't sound right. In the past some cars had uneven torque split but mostly only on asphalt.

[racerx1979]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the torque split could be easily changed by the driver at any given time?

[Mirek]

No, it can not. There is not and never has been any torque vectoring system used in WRC cars. What is being changed by switching of differential maps is the locking behavior not the torque split.

[stefanvv]

No, it can not. There is not and never has been any torque vectoring system used in WRC cars. What is being changed by switching of differential maps is the locking behavior not the torque split.If I'm not wrong there used to be some king of adjustable split in Toyota Gr. A cars. But I'm not sure it was about the torque.

[wrc2017]

WTF...

Meeke is bound to be fuming.

From autosport.com

"Citroen has implemented two homologation changes for Poland: a new rear differential rail and a modification to the torque split between front and rear axles.

Meeke was unavailable for comment, but a Citroen source confirmed both areas where he had been pushing for change

We weren't just rearranging the current parts on the car

I have a car which is driving from the front axle more now, said Mikkelsen

Meeke had been pushing for the changes? well why were they not on the car before now? Mikkelsen confirm a car driving more from front axle, surely this is Meeke preferred driving style coming from a front wheel drive background. And the fact that we were not just rearranging parts on the car means that these parts had, or were, being development but not tested. Most of Meeke and Lebrefrve accident are stupid rear end stepping out type accidents. It looks as if Meeke and the engineering team may have been at loggerheads.

Raises more questions than answers as to why it taken till now to suddenly get these updates on the car???

Mikkelsen being very bold with his predictions. Maybe not so wise.

[er88]

Citroen obviously took some big risks in development last year. Is that something Yves Matton is directly responsible for or have engineers been sacked as a result?

Makes it even stranger that Meeke has been dropped imo. Lefebvre crashes just as much but toddles around at a snails pace. At least Andreas should be able to push for a win or a podium now he's tested properly with the car and made big changes to the car.

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[Mirek]

If I'm not wrong there used to be some king of adjustable split in Toyota Gr. A cars. But I'm not sure it was about the torque.

That was viscous couppling, not used in any WRC car. Nowadays it's pretty outdated system. Don't get confused with it. It can change torque split but You can't drive it in any way. Simply when one axle spins the other gets somewhat more torque but the ratio depends on the difference of speed between front and rear axle, on the oil temperature and other variables. Such system is slow, not energy efficient and also can not transmit high torques of modern engines.

[Simmi]

Mikkelsen will also do Rally Germany with Citroen. Not sure about the other drivers?

https://twitter.com/AMikkelsenRally/status/880121401688170498

[AnttiL]

Mikkelsen will also do Rally Germany with Citroen. Not sure about the other drivers?

https://twitter.com/AMikkelsenRally/status/880121401688170498

This also means he's not driving in Finland. The last we heard was that Citroen entered Meeke, Breen and Al-Qassimi to Finland...maybe that was all they entered after all?

[er88]

This also means he's not driving in Finland. The last we heard was that Citroen entered Meeke, Breen and Al-Qassimi to Finland...maybe that was all they entered after all?
Another laughable decision if so. Just let Andreas do all the remaining events along with Meeke and Breen. If they are so desperate to give Lefebvre a drive, they can bring a 4th car for him in the events Khalid isn't driving....

Honestly this team has been so badly managed in the last year. They almost deserve Andreas to turn round at the end of the year and tell them to shove any contract they offer him up Matton's arse. If Toyota don't get Tanak surely Mikkelsen would rather go there?

[OldF]

Explanations for the difference between torque split and torque apportion.

http://www.awdwiki.com/en/torque+split+ratio/

Now let's take a vehicle with automatic all wheel drive systems as an example (assume the vehicle is front wheel drive under normal conditions). When in front wheel drive mode, the torque transfer is near 100/0 – most of the power goes to the front wheels. When front wheels slip, the transfer clutch attaches the rear axle. At full lock, torque split becomes 50/50. Now, if front wheels lose traction completely (ice, rollers, or raised in the air), 0% torque goes to the front wheels, 100% of torque goes to the rear wheels, but the ratio stays 50/50. Understand the two things: torque split ratio can vary from 100/0 to 50/50. But torque apportion can vary from 100/0 to 0/100.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

RE Meeke being dropped and then big changes made for Mikkelsen as soon as he arrives..

You can only think that Meeke is/was being made a scapegoat for the bad decisions of others. I have been very critical of him this season but I have huge sympathy for him now. This latest treatment has been a disgrace.

[AnttiL]

Another laughable decision if so. Just let Andreas do all the remaining events along with Meeke and Breen. If they are so desperate to give Lefebvre a drive, they can bring a 4th car for him in the events Khalid isn't driving....

Honestly this team has been so badly managed in the last year. They almost deserve Andreas to turn round at the end of the year and tell them to shove any contract they offer him up Matton's arse. If Toyota don't get Tanak surely Mikkelsen would rather go there?

Matton is between a rock and a hard place. A certain sponsor wants drives for Qassimi, the factory wants to have the French guy in the team, other drivers have either pace or consistency but not at the same time. Who do you put on the car?

[Tarmop]

Wasn`t Lefebvre personally sponsored by Qassimi?

[stefanvv]

Matton is between a rock and a hard place. A certain sponsor wants drives for Qassimi, the factory wants to have the French guy in the team, other drivers have either pace or consistency but not at the same time. Who do you put on the car?Ogier?

[er88]

Matton is between a rock and a hard place. A certain sponsor wants drives for Qassimi, the factory wants to have the French guy in the team, other drivers have either pace or consistency but not at the same time. Who do you put on the car?
If Seb isn't available for them (why would he want to go there now??), I'd put Meeke, Mikkelsen and Breen in the car. What's the benefit to the factory of having a French driver when he isn't even showing signs of any sort of pace, nevermind half decent results?

I get what you're saying, but unless they have a realistic chance of signing Seb for next year they have to lock Andreas down on a contract as soon as possible or he could go elsewhere, and that would leave Citroën up Shit Creek for next year.

Breen is a great 3rd driver and Meeke can win rallies for them (perhaps even more so now if the new changes work on the C3). Andreas has been pretty consistent and fast for the last few years, so with Breen and Mikkelsen bringing home pts on most rallies, having a driver like Meeke pushing for wins on most events is surely the makeup of a much stronger team than what they have now.

[Sulland]

They need to put Meeke and Mikkelsen in the same rallies. They need to cooperate and develop the car together to suite different styles. They will learn car and eachother, to form a top team!

The last two drivers need to share 3rd car, maybe 4 cars last rallies.

[Simmi]

The big shame here is I can see Breen getting flicked for a few events this year (potentially starting with Germany) - when he's really done nothing wrong.

[Rally Power]

WTF...

Meeke is bound to be fuming.
From autosport.com

"Citroen has implemented two homologation changes for Poland: a new rear differential rail and a modification to the torque split between front and rear axles.
Meeke was unavailable for comment, but a Citroen source confirmed both areas where he had been pushing for change
We weren't just rearranging the current parts on the car
I have a car which is driving from the front axle more now, said Mikkelsen"

Meeke had been pushing for the changes? well why were they not on the car before now? Mikkelsen confirm a car driving more from front axle, surely this is Meeke preferred driving style coming from a front wheel drive background. And the fact that we were not just rearranging parts on the car means that these parts had, or were, being development but not tested. Most of Meeke and Lebrefrve accident are stupid rear end stepping out type accidents. It looks as if Meeke and the engineering team may have been at loggerheads.
Raises more questions than answers as to why it taken till now to suddenly get these updates on the car???


The questions are only raised because brit journos keep treating this matter in a shameful way and Meeke’s fans are in denial state. Btw, who's the Citroen source mentioned by Evans: the cleaning woman; the gatekeeper or the K9 mascot?

Time to stop the fuss and the worries; let’s just hope Citroen can make the C3 more competitive and their drivers can have more chances to shine. That’s what WRC needs: more cars and drivers fighting for the win.

[Rally Power]

The big shame here is I can see Breen getting flicked for a few events this year (potentially starting with Germany) - when he's really done nothing wrong.

Honestly I see Breen solid as a rock inside Citroen. There's no doubt he's ready to go faster (like in Portugal's first loop) but so far Meeke's and Lefebvre’s permanent mistakes forced him to get back and secure manu points for Citroen. I also don't see Mikkelsen as the game changer Citroen desperately needs, so maybe Breen can now have a chance to get the team spotlights. Fingers crossed for him!

[wrc2017]

Honestly I see Breen solid as a rock inside Citroen. There's no doubt he's ready to go faster (like in Portugal's first loop) but so far Meeke's and Lefebvre’s permanent mistakes forced him to get back and secure manu points for Citroen. I also don't see Mikkelsen as the game changer Citroen desperately needs, so maybe Breen can now have a chance to get the team spotlights. Fingers crossed for him! your in denial. Breen maybe fast.. but he may also be the new Sordo

[KiwiWRCfan]

let’s just hope Citroen can make the C3 more competitive and their drivers can have more chances to shine.
That’s what WRC needs: more cars and drivers fighting for the win.
hear hear

[tomhlord]

The questions are only raised because brit journos keep treating this matter in a shameful way and Meeke’s fans are in denial state. Btw, who's the Citroen source mentioned by Evans: the cleaning woman; the gatekeeper or the K9 mascot?

Get a grip.

Or become a journalist yourself.

[Simmi]

your in denial. Breen maybe fast.. but he may also be the new Sordo

He's already on Sordo's level after 14 WRC car outings.

[wrc2017]

I mean good #2 might never win a rally.
Ive yet to see devestating pace.
SD doesnt look promising after all the talk for Citroen.
He's already on Sordo's level after 14 WRC car outings.

[mknight]

Yeah judging by SD they are still behind.

Sure shakedown was wet which is not where Citroen tested, but there is not much improvement and this is faster roads which should suit the car. We will know more after the weekend but does not look good for Citroen atm.

As most here know Mikkelsen's result in Poland for last years are 2nd, 2nd, 1st. Yes that was with Polo but even back in the day he did some very good stage times with Fabia WRC there. Also he was clearly faster than Sunninen earlier this year in 2 rallies in R5. Now on SD it's at best same place.

What's more both Lefevbre and Breen were quite fast in Poland last year.

[er88]

Meeke could come out in a stronger position after this rally despite not even competing. Mikkelsen, a driver who isn't even contracted for more than a rally by rally basis is getting first dibs on the only C3 with the new parts on the car, whereas the man who's dragged the car to one win (would've been two if the car didn't pack it in in Corsica) gets dropped. This is just as Matton admits the team has fucked up badly with their risky strategies. Breen also deserves the new parts ahead of Andreas imo, but the fact he hasn't suggests this is because the team absolutely needs Mikkelsen to be setting front running times. If Andreas still can't be right at the front in Poland shit is going to hit the fan big time.

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[mknight]

Meeke could come out in a stronger position after this rally despite not even competing. Mikkelsen, a driver who isn't even contracted for more than a rally by rally basis is getting first dibs on the only C3 with the new parts on the car, whereas the man who's dragged the car to one win (would've been two if the car didn't pack it in in Corsica) gets dropped. This is just as Matton admits the team has fucked up badly with their risky strategies. Breen also deserves the new parts ahead of Andreas imo, but the fact he hasn't suggests this is because the team absolutely needs Mikkelsen to be setting front running times. If Andreas still can't be right at the front in Poland shit is going to hit the fan big time.

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This is like half-full vs half-empty glass discussion.
You could say that even Mikkelsen can't make it go fast. Meeke has been driving the car for a year on tests and still he mostly managed a lot of DNFs. The one win could easily have been 0, pure luck saved him in Mexico. Also note that in Mexico all the other cars had overheating issues and Hyundai also had the fuelpump issues on SS.


Imo there is also some development factor involved. Hyundai has been consistently fast since the start, Toyota mostly as well with some reliability issues. Ford had turn-in issues that seems to have been solved by Portugal.

So other cars are getting faster and faster and their drivers get more and more confidence in the cars. While Citroen drivers fight the car and all development is focused on making it behave instead of making if faster. Note that up to Sardinia Breen was quite consistent with 4-6th times. Now he seems to drop down as well.

Anyway let's wait until Sunday.

[Rally Power]

Get a grip.
Or become a journalist yourself.

Thanks for the advice. I’ll ask my village newspaper to send me out.

Let’s be clear: all journos in WRC official media and on the most influential motorsport press are brits. They tend to cover WRC in a biased way, forgetting the sport isn’t based in the UK and their public is worldwide spread. A little more independence would be very much welcomed.

[AnttiL]

Citroen has had a different driver/car line-up for every rally now

Monte: Meeke&Lefebvre C3, Breen DS3
Sweden: Meeke&Breen C3, Levebvre DS3
Mexico: Meeke&Lefebvre C3
Corsica: Meeke&Breen&Lefebvre C3
Argentina: Meeke&Breen C3
Portugal: Meeke&Breen&Lefebvre&Al-Qassimi C3
Sardinia: Meeke&Breen&Mikkelsen C3
Poland: Mikkelsen&Breen&Lefebvre C3

And this continues:
Finland: Meeke&Breen&Al-Qassimi C3
Deutchland: Meeke&Breen&Lefevbre&Mikkelsen C3

So what's next, can they come up with more combinations for the rest of the year? :D

[JUF]

So what's next, can they come up with more combinations for the rest of the year? :D
I expect Carlos Sainz to join them from Rally Spain onwards :D.

[rhm]

24 possible combinations, don't tempt them...

[WUff1]

When looking to the results at Poland Mikkelsen doesn´t seem to be the solution to Citroen´s problems.

[RS]

When looking to the results at Poland Mikkelsen doesn´t seem to be the solution to Citroen´s problems.

I'm not sure any driver is.. maybe Meeke was overdriving it to get it to go that fast.

[Sulland]

He is saying it is changing from over- to understeering all the time.
does not look good so far, but maybe engineers can help at first service?

[cali]

He is saying it is changing from over- to understeering all the time.
does not look good so far, but maybe engineers can help at first service?
Does not look good, I was hoping for improvement. Cheering for Citroën to sort out their problems.

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[Mintexmemory]

I'm not sure any driver is.. maybe Meeke was overdriving it to get it to go that fast.

No 'maybe' about it! Meeke should be awarded the Legion d'Honneur for actually having won a round in the bloody thing. Anyone can look good in a Polo.....

[RS]

No 'maybe' about it! Meeke should be awarded the Legion d'Honneur for actually having won a round in the bloody thing. Anyone can look good in a Polo.....

Could have been two if it hadn't blown up in Corsica too.

[AndyRAC]

Ah so Citroen do have problems...I thought it was all made up by British journalists....

[wia5958]

1362

I should of kept meeke for poland

[wrc2017]

Best result of the year for Meeke... and he didnt have to leave Dungannon.

[J_n_z]

So mr. Meeke is probably the fastest rally driver atm. Matton worst wrc team boss atm.

[Arwel Davies]

It now looks certain that Kris Meeke has been the scape goat in all this. To me it now seems 100% that the C3 has some serious problems and the drivers are just trying their best to drive it quick but make mistakes as it seems to be a very unforgiving car. Just makes you think, how the hell did Kris win in Mexico with it?

[wrc2017]

Yes and after having used 4 jokers to try and sort.

[Tarmop]

Who was the main developer of the car? I still think all three (driver, car, team managment) are very much connected and to blame. Although i must admit, i`m not blaming Meeke so much anymore.

[Eric]

Meeke was the main developer. So he musk take some of the blame here. At the same time Citöen should have brought in someone else to have a second and third opinion. The whole team is to blame and Matton most of all. Its just a disaster how things are. Mikkelsen coming in as the "rescue" is not giving results and his interview before the rally is just embarassing looking at his times so far.

[mknight]

Meeke was the main developer. So he musk take some of the blame here. At the same time Citöen should have brought in someone else to have a second and third opinion. The whole team is to blame and Matton most of all. Its just a disaster how things are. Mikkelsen coming in as the "rescue" is not giving results and his interview before the rally is just embarassing looking at his times so far.

They brought Mikkelsen in to get a second opinion, probably at least 6 months late. Seems like that opened up some changes, question is off course if such drastic changes require whole lot of other adjustments to work or if they wont help.

Whole testing was on dry, so not that much surprise they don't have good setup for wet with the "new" car.
Specially considering they didn't have good setup for both Monte and Sweden. One should rather wonder why/if Breen and Lefevbre don't have good setup even with the old parts. Didn't they test original version of the car in wet/slippery condition?

[mknight]

Btw. I still don't see how crashing on Friday in 3 rallies in a row is a good approach.
a) very low test km in a rally
b) repair bill

[Mintexmemory]

Meeke was the main developer. So he musk take some of the blame here. At the same time Citöen should have brought in someone else to have a second and third opinion. The whole team is to blame and Matton most of all. Its just a disaster how things are. Mikkelsen coming in as the "rescue" is not giving results and his interview before the rally is just embarassing looking at his times so far.
You don't know what Meeke reported in testing and how Citroen responded. I suspect a certain amount of engineering arrogance may have gone down along the way.

[dupanton]

Best result of the year for Meeke... and he didnt have to leave Dungannon.

Is he from Dungannon? :o

[rhm]

You don't know what Meeke reported in testing and how Citroen responded. I suspect a certain amount of engineering arrogance may have gone down along the way.

Absolutely this.

[Doon]

Is he from Dungannon? :o

I've always wondered where he's from. They don't seem to report in during the TV coverage.

[dimviii]

You don't know what Meeke reported in testing and how Citroen responded. I suspect a certain amount of engineering arrogance may have gone down along the way.

most usefull post at this subject.

[tomhlord]

Didn't Xavier Mestelan Pinon, the man who was the lead on the previous WRC and WTCC efforts, go and work in Formula E instead?

[Rally Power]

Ah so Citroen do have problems...I thought it was all made up by British journalists....

Since Italy it become obvious the C3 has major problems. No point to elude neither them nor Meeke's driving issues, which are known from a long time.

More than keep playing a blaming game, what any rally fan can wish is that Citroen is able to fix the car or start to draw ASAP a new one for 2018.

I've mentioned Peugeot case before: the initial '15 Dakar proto was a flop but they didn't spend much time trying to improve it; they've choose to design a new car for '16 and it became a winning machine. Probably that's what Citroen needs to do.

[TWRC]

Didn't Xavier Mestelan Pinon, the man who was the lead on the previous WRC and WTCC efforts, go and work in Formula E instead?
Yes, but his replacement was said to have been involved since the C4 WRC days, so...
What struck me today was when Mikkelsen said that the setup they worked on during testing (in the dry) is not good for the wet. How could they think it was going to be? Looking at onboards from SS2, his car seems to be much much harder set up than ie. Ogier's...

[Sulland]

Ah so Citroen do have problems...I thought it was all made up by British journalists....

So fake news on both sides of the Atlantic puddle then!!!!???
Who will tweet Trump to give him a heads up? :bounce:

[Lousada]

You don't know what Meeke reported in testing and how Citroen responded. I suspect a certain amount of engineering arrogance may have gone down along the way.


Which again shows a lot about Meeke if even his own engineers do not take him seriously and do not listen to him. But then again that is probably not what happened.

[itix]

Which again shows a lot about Meeke if even his own engineers do not take him seriously and do not listen to him. But then again that is probably not what happened.
What is definitely clear is that everyone, including Citroen, pre season, thought they had the best car, and what is obvious now is that on gravel, so far, the car is a disappointment pace wise other than Meeke who gets the set up right and then over drive it and crash.

My guess, like most people, is that it is likely damper related considering that they seem to have pace on tarmac rounds where it is less important.

[Mirek]

How about to stop the useless blame talk? None of us knows how it was.

[Simmi]

It will be interesting to see if Mikkelsen starts to get a handle on the car, but perhaps the changes he influenced end up moving it out of the comfort zone of Meeke and Breen. Future events will tell better with more normal conditions. And he could still end up leaving the team after Germany. Would be quite ironic.

[tomhlord]

What is definitely clear is that everyone, including Citroen, pre season, thought they had the best car, and what is obvious now is that on gravel, so far, the car is a disappointment pace wise

Good point. None of the teams really knew where they sat pace-wise pre-season.

[Norm75]

What is definitely clear is that everyone, including Citroen, pre season, thought they had the best car, and what is obvious now is that on gravel, so far, the car is a disappointment pace wise other than Meeke who gets the set up right and then over drive it and crash.

My guess, like most people, is that it is likely damper related considering that they seem to have pace on tarmac rounds where it is less important.
Or aero, or possibly a combination of both.

Seems to me the C3 doesn't look as efficient in aero department, not that I'm an expert, but there is an old saying that if it looks right, it probably is right.

What I have found, as a basic road car the C3 has the worst aero efficiency of the four cars the wrc cars are based on.
Citroen C3 0.307
Ford Fiesta 0.287
Toyota Yaris 0.29
Hyundai i20 coupe 0.3

Ok, the last two I have not found exact figures for, and the Hyundai, which appears to be the best car this year so far is closer than the rest in coefficiency figures, but it does look more aggressively styled at the front.

[macebig]

Front drag is killing the C3.

[EstWRC]

maybe they should hire this guy?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZS1Ku2IgAASlss.jpg:large

[er88]

You don't know what Meeke reported in testing and how Citroen responded. I suspect a certain amount of engineering arrogance may have gone down along the way.
Well they've already admitted the risks they took in engineering and setup haven't worked. A driver doesn't dictate that, that's a management decision and Matton is now up shit Creek seeing how poorly Mikkelsen is doing. Quite amazing that Meeke has won with this car and was a mechanical failure away from back to back wins...

[er88]

What is definitely clear is that everyone, including Citroen, pre season, thought they had the best car, and what is obvious now is that on gravel, so far, the car is a disappointment pace wise other than Meeke who gets the set up right and then over drive it and crash.

My guess, like most people, is that it is likely damper related considering that they seem to have pace on tarmac rounds where it is less important.
I don't think they thought they had the best car at all. Everyone just presumed that because the didn't let Seb test it, but maybe they didn't let him test because they knew it had many issues? Instead of not letting him test because they wanted to hide how brilliant it was or whatever people were saying...

Also, Meeke told someone on this very forum that the VW was going to be unbeatable...

[J_n_z]

Citroen is probably good tarmac car...

They are also the only tean having different tarmac and gravel suspension geometry. As far as I can understand, c3 is "evolution" of c4 wrc concept. They just fail to set it up consistently.

[Norm75]

Who was the main developer of the car? I still think all three (driver, car, team managment) are very much connected and to blame. Although i must admit, i`m not blaming Meeke so much anymore.i read that the changes called for by Andreas that have been implemented are very similar to those that Kris was asking for.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[itix]

Or aero, or possibly a combination of both.

Seems to me the C3 doesn't look as efficient in aero department, not that I'm an expert, but there is an old saying that if it looks right, it probably is right.

What I have found, as a basic road car the C3 has the worst aero efficiency of the four cars the wrc cars are based on.
Citroen C3 0.307
Ford Fiesta 0.287
Toyota Yaris 0.29
Hyundai i20 coupe 0.3

Ok, the last two I have not found exact figures for, and the Hyundai, which appears to be the best car this year so far is closer than the rest in coefficiency figures, but it does look more aggressively styled at the front.

Aero would make sense here in Poland but the car has struggled in slow rallies such as Sardegna even with good road position.

In Mexico it did well, but Mexico is not so rough either. Argentina, Portugal and Sardegna were all rough and the car was struggling. To me it suggests dampers, but I'm no expert.


Citroen is probably good tarmac car...

They are also the only tean having different tarmac and gravel suspension geometry. As far as I can understand, c3 is "evolution" of c4 wrc concept. They just fail to set it up consistently.

If it was an evolution of the C4 that would explain a lot because that car is over 10 years old now. Although I agree that it is likely a good tarmac car.

[Dug83]

Technical director gone and Breen out for Germany.

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/11574-major-change-at-citroen-racing-and-breen-dropped-for-germany

[mknight]

What? Didn't they said just 2 days ago that they will have 4 cars including Breen?

[KKS]

Idiotic management continue produce idiotic decisions

On Breen it's a reaction of his stage-end speaking of scary C3?

[itix]

That is retarded. I'd defend the decisions to give Meeke and Lefebvre the boot any day of the week but Breen has done absolutely nothing wrong all year.

[J_n_z]

Kick Matton before too late, not giving drive most promising snd already most consistent driver shows total lack of long term planing... I predict Meeke or Breen in Toyota next year.

[Simmi]

Was only a matter of time before Breen got dragged into the sh*t. The season is a complete write-off.

Really there must be so many issues inside the organisation. I'm sure the budget just isn't the same as a couple of the other teams, angry personalities, management pressure, development indecision.

[dodge33cymru]

Eh? Breen, a tarmac specialist (I know, he's good on all surfaces) dropped for Germany for someone who's preferred surface is gravel (I know, he's good on all surfaces)? This weird Citroen "we can't offend Lefebvre" attitude is strange.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[itix]

Eh? Breen, a tarmac specialist (I know, he's good on all surfaces) dropped for Germany for someone who's preferred surface is gravel (I know, he's good on all surfaces)? This weird Citroen "we can't offend Lefebvre" attitude is strange.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
Like my wife suggested, I'm guessing it's a "we treat all drivers equally" policy.

[WUff1]

Finally Matton is responsible for all the chaos - he should get sacked.

[Sulland]

Citroen is probably good tarmac car...

They are also the only tean having different tarmac and gravel suspension geometry. As far as I can understand, c3 is "evolution" of c4 wrc concept. They just fail to set it up consistently.

How does that work, two upper fastening points?

[Eli]

I know a lot of the funding comes from Abu-Dhabi but honestly what was the problem to tell Sheikh Khalid Al Qassimii to make way for Mikkeslen in Germany, 'cause if they continue like this there won't be a Citroen team in the WRC come 2018...

[EightGear]

They really have no clue, do they?

Just kick Lefebvre out and forget about him. Meeke, Mikkelsen and Breen would make a very decent line up.

[macebig]

They really have no clue, do they?

Just kick Lefebvre out and forget about him. Meeke, Mikkelsen and Breen would make a very decent line up.

They want a Frenchman in the car no matter what...

[Eli]

They want a Frenchman in the car no matter what...

They want to see themselves out of the championship that's what...

[KKS]

I know a lot of the funding comes from Abu-Dhabi but honestly what was the problem to tell Sheikh Khalid Al Qassimii to make way for Mikkeslen in Germany, 'cause if they continue like this there won't be a Citroen team in the WRC come 2018...
AlQassimii not entry for Germany, only for Finland
Citroen from Meeke, Leferbve, Mikkelsen, Breen just cut to 3 cars without Breen

[itix]

How does that work, two upper fastening points?

It was in the technical thread a while ago I think. They attach the damper on opposite sides of the hub depending on configuration.

[J_n_z]

Two lower fastening points on front suspension. Gravel "Fiesta" style, tarmac "Fabia r5" style.

[Mirek]

Finally Matton is responsible for all the chaos - he should get sacked.

Amen to that.

[denkimi]

I know a lot of the funding comes from Abu-Dhabi but honestly what was the problem to tell Sheikh Khalid Al Qassimii to make way for Mikkeslen in Germany, 'cause if they continue like this there won't be a Citroen team in the WRC come 2018...

they can't make Al Qassimii angry, cause that would also mean the end of the citroen team.

[Eli]

they can't make Al Qassimii angry, cause that would also mean the end of the citroen team.

Isn't the situation right now ain't making him angry? I mean, he has probably invested quite some sum of money so....

[RAS007]

Simply unbelievable that they'd drop Breen and not Lefebvre.

[Norm75]

Simply unbelievable that they'd drop Breen and not Lefebvre.
They've already dropped Lefebvre and Meeke, so now seems to be Breens turn. I don't think it's a reflection on Breens performance so far this season.

[Simmi]

They've already dropped Lefebvre and Meeke, so now seems to be Breens turn. I don't think it's a reflection on Breens performance so far this season.

This.


I bet Citroen PR wish people would stop referring to these drivers as being 'dropped'. But fundamentally that is what has happened.

[AndyRAC]

This.


I bet Citroen PR wish people would stop referring to these drivers as being 'dropped'. But fundamentally that is what has happened.

Call it rotation.....like when WRC events were dropped for a year... ;)

[smokingjoe]

Call it rotation.....like when WRC events were dropped for a year... ;)

like Rally NZ ??

[racerx1979]

I'm still baffled at the fact that Andreas's car is posting times just as fast as Breen and Leferve. I would assume he would be faster with the updated components. Might be conditions, but either way it looks bad for Citroen. Still enough rallies to prove a point, but doesn't seem likely

[er88]

I'm still baffled at the fact that Andreas's car is posting times just as fast as Breen and Leferve. I would assume he would be faster with the updated components. Might be conditions, but either way it looks bad for Citroen. Still enough rallies to prove a point, but doesn't seem likely
It's embarrassing for them

[RAS007]

It's embarrassing for them

And for Mikkelsen, given his interviews before the rally.

[Eli]

I just hope they will take a lot of this (bad) experience and learn from it ASAP, so in 2018 we have 4 Manu. which are actually capable of winning the title.

[mknight]

I'm still baffled at the fact that Andreas's car is posting times just as fast as Breen and Leferve. I would assume he would be faster with the updated components. Might be conditions, but either way it looks bad for Citroen. Still enough rallies to prove a point, but doesn't seem likely

As I wrote elsewhere:
https://www.ewrc-results.com/leg/36431-orlen-rally-poland-2017/?leg=2

Lefebre 2.7s faster than Mikkelsen for Saturday, Breen 20s down.

Mikkelsen was off the road in field twice today, prbly some 10s lost in that combined. Road position certainly matters for Breen, maybe a bit for Mikkelsen. (Breen 1st on road, Mikkelsen 2nd, Lefebvre 5th)

As I also wrote that I think today they did ok all 3. Beat all "2nd level" drivers including Sordo. But clearly far behind the top 5.
Even more importantly basically all 3 had consistent speed whole day, not like before when one stage is epic and next is hopeless. So there are signs of improvement, question is if they are too little too late.

Yesterday in the wet during the afternoon Mikkelsen was far faster than the other two, and that's the kind of conditions where the less twitchy handling should help, maybe not so much difference on the not-so twisty dry roads today. Also Lefevbre won a stage here last year and did 1-2 other good times, in a way it was his best rally of the season.

[racerx1979]

Best rally for Leferve and a few decent stages by Mikkelsen, but still off the pace for the whole gang. Finland will be interesting with Meeke. Does he go all out or try bring it home safe with a top five finish. His past stats would suggest otherwise. At this point as long as he's ahead of the rest of the Citroen squad he's in a good situation. What would you guys do if you were in Meekes shoes??

[er88]

As I wrote elsewhere:
https://www.ewrc-results.com/leg/36431-orlen-rally-poland-2017/?leg=2

Lefebre 2.7s faster than Mikkelsen for Saturday, Breen 20s down.

Mikkelsen was off the road in field twice today, prbly some 10s lost in that combined. Road position certainly matters for Breen, maybe a bit for Mikkelsen. (Breen 1st on road, Mikkelsen 2nd, Lefebvre 5th)

As I also wrote that I think today they did ok all 3. Beat all "2nd level" drivers including Sordo. But clearly far behind the top 5.
Even more importantly basically all 3 had consistent speed whole day, not like before when one stage is epic and next is hopeless. So there are signs of improvement, question is if they are too little too late.

Yesterday in the wet during the afternoon Mikkelsen was far faster than the other two, and that's the kind of conditions where the less twitchy handling should help, maybe not so much difference on the not-so twisty dry roads today. Also Lefevbre won a stage here last year and did 1-2 other good times, in a way it was his best rally of the season.
Lol come on now, are you actually sugar coating this slugfest for 10th place? This is one of the best drivers in the world? It's an embarrassment. Let's face facts.

[mknight]

Lol come on now, are you actually sugar coating this slugfest for 10th place? This is one of the best drivers in the world? It's an embarrassment. Let's face facts.

Maybe you didn't manage to read what I wrote. I will highlight it for you.

I think today they did ok all 3. Beat all "2nd level" drivers including Sordo. But clearly far behind the top 5.
... there are signs of improvement, question is if they are too little too late.

(extra emphasis on today - Saturday)

The fact that they are "fighting" for 6-7 place (for Lefevbre) and 9-10 for Mikkelsen has all to do with Friday.

[er88]

And for Mikkelsen, given his interviews before the rally.
Yeah true mate. Mikkelsen should maybe decline a drive in Germany if he's going to crawl around the stages like this. It's not good for him and it's not good for Citroën.

Citroën have given a driver who's not even contracted full time their only latest spec car, with the new components and Jokers spent on it to make him feel comfortable. This was so he was able to push hard for a top result and test the new limits of the car. Yet all we're getting is scramble for 10th place, and for a second rally in a row pace/ a result Lefebvre wouldn't be totally happy with.

Huge disappointment. What's worse is that Breen is getting shafted out of a drive in Germany (a tarmac event that should suit him) for Mikkelsen.

[mknight]

Best rally for Leferve and a few decent stages by Mikkelsen, but still off the pace for the whole gang. Finland will be interesting with Meeke. Does he go all out or try bring it home safe with a top five finish. His past stats would suggest otherwise. At this point as long as he's ahead of the rest of the Citroen squad he's in a good situation. What would you guys do if you were in Meekes shoes??

For his future with the team he imo needs to show he can drive ok without crashing. So fast enough to be a little bit ahead of Breen. Even leading the whole rally and crashing on last stage would not be good enough else. Not easy to be in his shoes.

[er88]

For his future with the team he imo needs to show he can drive ok without crashing. So fast enough to be a little bit ahead of Breen. Even leading the whole rally and crashing on last stage would not be good enough else. Not easy to be in his shoes.
Citroën's season would be catastrophic if it wasn't for Meeke's heroics ;). After all, they only wanted some wins this season didnt they? Toddling around in 9th or 10th place wasn't in their stated pre season goals. Meeke would've delivered them two by now if it wasn't for the car. :p

[KKS]

Best rally for Leferve and a few decent stages by Mikkelsen, but still off the pace for the whole gang. Finland will be interesting with Meeke. Does he go all out or try bring it home safe with a top five finish. His past stats would suggest otherwise. At this point as long as he's ahead of the rest of the Citroen squad he's in a good situation. What would you guys do if you were in Meekes shoes??
I watch few Meeke onboards from last year Rally Finland and it was completely scary even for me, for my side of monitor. C3's back not stable even now in Poland, Breen and co just manage to drive at that slow speed that could keep car on a road. Meeke didn't do that in Finland and road nature there very demanding on stable car. So Meeke will crash again - cuz he tried to be fast as always, not just surviving.

[mknight]

Meeke's season until Argentina was ok, some crashes (Monte, Sweden off), but win (with crash and other manufacturer car issues) and good speed. 4 crashes in a row in 3 rallies can't be excused, much less called "heroics".

You know what's also interesting, if you look on the last non-tarmac rally where Meeke had sustained performance you get Sweden (up to and including SS11).
Meeke was 5th, beating "2nd level" drivers including Sordo and Paddon (who was down after Monte). Sounds familiar doesn't it? Exactly same level of performance as we saw from whole Citroen team yesterday.

Mexico stands more and more out as lucky result, all other cars had overheating issues with temporary fixes done by limiting power. And Meeke's driving didn't result in an off until last corner and he survived that one.

[cali]

If you look at Meeke's off in Mexico, you can clearly see that the rear of the car was again bouncing. Hence the off-road excursion. This car does very strange things.

[Simmi]

I really do rate Mikkelsen highly but he's spent more time in fields and access roads than on the stages in Poland.

[dimviii]

I am very curious to see Meeke and Mikkelsen competing at same rally.

[Simmi]

A nice Happy Birthday/kick in the balls message for Meeke.

https://twitter.com/CitroenRacing/status/881371660624039936

As someone who does a lot of work in social media/PR I think I might have thought twice about this...

[racerx1979]

You can tell everyone was a little off... the team seems to have some moral issues, but what the heck do I know.... they just seem off.

[noel157]

A nice Happy Birthday/kick in the balls message for Meeke.

https://twitter.com/CitroenRacing/status/881371660624039936

As someone who does a lot of work in social media/PR I think I might have thought twice about this...

Thought that too when I saw it earlier. At least Breen and the others weren't as happy clappy as Mikkelsen.

[AndyRAC]

I really do rate Mikkelsen highly but he's spent more time in fields and access roads than on the stages in Poland.

I can't think why that might be..... ;)

[wrc2017]

Like Tanak today. If he is told to win
You have to accept risks.
For his future with the team he imo needs to show he can drive ok without crashing. So fast enough to be a little bit ahead of Breen. Even leading the whole rally and crashing on last stage would not be good enough else. Not easy to be in his shoes.

[wrc2017]

Your obessed with running Meeke down.

Meeke's season until Argentina was ok, some crashes (Monte, Sweden off), but win (with crash and other manufacturer car issues) and good speed. 4 crashes in a row in 3 rallies can't be excused, much less called "heroics".

You know what's also interesting, if you look on the last non-tarmac rally where Meeke had sustained performance you get Sweden (up to and including SS11).
Meeke was 5th, beating "2nd level" drivers including Sordo and Paddon (who was down after Monte). Sounds familiar doesn't it? Exactly same level of performance as we saw from whole Citroen team yesterday.

Mexico stands more and more out as lucky result, all other cars had overheating issues with temporary fixes done by limiting power. And Meeke's driving didn't result in an off until last corner and he survived that one.

[wrc2017]

That is quite sad from Citroen Racing.

A nice Happy Birthday/kick in the balls message for Meeke.

https://twitter.com/CitroenRacing/status/881371660624039936

As someone who does a lot of work in social media/PR I think I might have thought twice about this...

[EightGear]

Your obessed with running Meeke down.
Luckily you aren't obsessed with Meeke.

[wrc2017]

Im only replying to dumbass comments,
but this guy seems obsessed.
He is trolling, while im being positive.
Luckily you aren't obsessed with Meeke.

[BigWorm]

Im only replying to dumbass comments,
but this guy seems obsessed.
He is trolling, while im being positive.

He's making legitimate arguments regarding Meeke's performances, is that really trolling?

[SubaruNorway]

Torque speed was sett to more percent at the front than rear on Mikkelsen's car they said on the Citroën live now, not 50/50 like someone stated

[itix]

I seriously can't make sense of the Citroen. Sometimes it seems quick enough, other stages it is too slow and it seems to be consistent on re-runs of stages. It is like it has one fundamental flaw which is only showing up on certain stages or something.

If citroen was smart, they'd stay behind and check where they had pace and where they didn't compared to the others and then go and very seriously check the roads on those stages. That would give them valuable data on what to improve.

[itix]

He's making legitimate arguments regarding Meeke's performances, is that really trolling?

Very, very legitimate comments. Both Meeke and Ogier has slower cars than the Hyundai, this we all agree on. Meanwhile Ogier has not won a single rally from the front this season. He has inherited wins from other's mistakes. Ogier is a smart guy who knows to bring maximum points everywhere he can, and to do that he needs to finish. Very simple!

Meeke is the exact opposite. He is a complete idiot who tries to win every stage of every rally always. He doesn't play the long game at all, ever. As a result, he is overdriving a car that can't handle the pace and things happen, just like it did for Tänak today. The difference is that Tänak can afford the risk, while Meeke is second to last in the championship of the regular manufacturer entries despite winning one event.

That says a few things about his performance this year.

[KKS]

Stéphane Lefebvre‏Verified account @SLefebvreRallye (https://twitter.com/SLefebvreRallye) 40m40 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/SLefebvreRallye/status/881494292644204544)More
Very happy for this 5th position, our best result with the #C3WRC (https://twitter.com/hashtag/C3WRC?src=hash). Next #WRC (https://twitter.com/hashtag/WRC?src=hash) event for us should be in Spain! Thank you for your support!



So Breen will run in Germany?

[AnttiL]

So Breen will run in Germany?


I've seen news of that throughout the day but not a source.

[wrc2017]

It obvious that they have a traction problem when reduced grip (loose surface or wet and slippery). When there is grip, the car is quick enough, if then its not compromised by high speed compression of the dampers.
I seriously can't make sense of the Citroen. Sometimes it seems quick enough, other stages it is too slow and it seems to be consistent on re-runs of stages. It is like it has one fundamental flaw which is only showing up on certain stages or something.

If citroen was smart, they'd stay behind and check where they had pace and where they didn't compared to the others and then go and very seriously check the roads on those stages. That would give them valuable data on what to improve.

[NickRally]

I very much doubt the torque split would have been changed to more than 50 percent front and suspect they must have meant more front than it used to be.
On the other hand if the statement above is correct, it would represent swinging from one extreme to another.

[Mirek]

Exactly. It makes no sense at all. At least for me.

[wrc2017]

To me, this is where it is clear the techical team has carried across to much from WTCC program.... where 1.. no slip.. diffs are fully loaded 2.. they dont have any high speed compression damping 3.. its then no coincidence car leads a fully tarmac rally with ease.

[krzaki]

I comeback from rally of Poland few hours ago.
I look at the brake point after long straightway and guess who brake latest?
1.Mikkelsen 2.Lefevbre 3.Latvala 4.Ogier 5.Neuville......
But Second case is entry speed (speed after strightway)
1.Neuville 2.Tanak Ogier 3.Latvala 4........
Citroen`s cars are in other league if we talk about speed.......sorry but I see on my eyes....
I run on rallies about 20 years.....

[Eli]

So wait you guys, are we going to see Breen for the rest of the 5 rallies this year? (or in other words is Lefebvre dropped for Germany and not Craig?)

[AnttiL]

So wait you guys, are we going to see Breen for the rest of the 5 rallies this year? (or in other words is Lefebvre dropped for Germany and not Craig?)

http://int-media.citroen.com/en/st%C3%A9phane-lefebvre-makes-it-top-five

In here Lefebvre says he's not competing in the next two rallies

[mknight]

I comeback from rally of Poland few hours ago.
I look at the brake point after long straightway and guess who brake latest?
1.Mikkelsen 2.Lefevbre 3.Latvala 4.Ogier 5.Neuville......
But Second case is entry speed (speed after strightway)
1.Neuville 2.Tanak Ogier 3.Latvala 4........
Citroen`s cars are in other league if we talk about speed.......sorry but I see on my eyes....
I run on rallies about 20 years.....

Well if they have slowest speed then they clearly can brake later.

[er88]

So is it Meeke, Breen and Mikkelsen for Finland?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

So is it Meeke, Breen and Mikkelsen for Finland?

Meeke, Breen and Al-Qassimi for Finland.
Meeke, Breen and Mikkelsen for Deutchland. So it's their first duplicate car-driver-lineup this season, same as in Sardegna.

[mknight]

Didn't quite get why no Lefevbre for Finnland. Sure Mikkelsen is probably playing hard to get and wants extra tests, but shouldn't be a problem for Lefevbre. They already ran 4 cars in Portugal.

Running out of money?


In other news, Poland was the first rally of the season where they got 2 cars in top 10. Their 2nd highest manu points score as well.

Kinda tells how bad the season has been so far more than anything.

[Eli]

Didn't quite get why no Lefevbre for Finnland. Sure Mikkelsen is probably playing hard to get and wants extra tests, but shouldn't be a problem for Lefevbre. They already ran 4 cars in Portugal.

Running out of money?


In other news, Poland was the first rally of the season where they got 2 cars in top 10. Their 2nd highest manu points score as well.

Kinda tells how bad the season has been so far more than anything.


So true it's sad (the other news part), I've noticed it aswell but I really really hope they can get back to winning ways (or at least podium ways) before the end of this season.

[Simmi]

I have to assume they haven't got the budget to put out four cars on events. Remember this is the team who really only wanted to run two cars this year.

[Rally Power]

So wait you guys, are we going to see Breen for the rest of the 5 rallies this year? (or in other words is Lefebvre dropped for Germany and not Craig?)

I didn’t comment Breen’s Germany alleged absence because I found it hard to believe. There’s a lot of misinformation and some journos (brits, french, whatever…) are acting like vultures around Citroen. With so many fantastic things going on in WRC (epic fights; new talents rising; amazing tech developments, etc) to keep messing around with one team misfortunes is a waste of time and a sad way to report the sport. Citroen, the WRC and us, the fans, deserved better.

[BigWorm]

Running out of money?

The many repairs of Lefebvre's and Meeke's cars and paying their wages do cost.

[mknight]

Mikkelsen prbly did not pay anything, most likely even wanted some pay after first test/sardinia.

Also even Hyundai says they can't afford 4 cars.

[Eli]

I didn’t comment Breen’s Germany alleged absence because I found it hard to believe. There’s a lot of misinformation and some journos (brits, french, whatever…) are acting like vultures around Citroen. With so many fantastic things going on in WRC (epic fights; new talents rising; amazing tech developments, etc) to keep messing around with one team misfortunes is a waste of time and a sad way to report the sport. Citroen, the WRC and us, the fans, deserved better.

Well that's why I'm asking you guys, 'cause it's hard to tell with all the misinformation.

[Andre Oliveira]

So, 3 months without WRC drive to Stephane

[er88]

I didn’t comment Breen’s Germany alleged absence because I found it hard to believe. There’s a lot of misinformation and some journos (brits, french, whatever…) are acting like vultures around Citroen. With so many fantastic things going on in WRC (epic fights; new talents rising; amazing tech developments, etc) to keep messing around with one team misfortunes is a waste of time and a sad way to report the sport. Citroen, the WRC and us, the fans, deserved better.
Mate if you want to live in an alternate world where everything is rosey, and where you can have your head wedged in the clouds, then this thread isn't the place for you :p

There's vultures circling around Citroen because;

1) They took a year out to prepare for this year
2) Built a fundamentally flawed car with risky strategies in engineering
3) Ignored Mikkelsen and Jari when they became available, instead sticking with Lefebvre.
4) Refused to let Ogier test their car (if they really wanted him they should've let him test the car on dry tarmac, he might have actually signed)
5) Arriving at Monte and Sweden with setups totally wrong, having not tested anywhere near enough on mixed/snowy conditions before RMC.
6) Underperforming drivers. Meeke crashing way to often and Lefebvre crashing too much and showing little to no pace
7) Mechanical failure denying Meeke and Citroën successive wins.
8) Dropping the driver who actually managed to test the limits of car, and win them a race. Scapegoating Meeke before then admitting the car was flawed and the risky strategy (implemented by Matton and engineers with backgrounds probably in WTCC) had backfired.
9) Belatedly bringing in Mikkelsen for Sardinia, only for the Norwegian to drive like he'd forgotten he had a pair of balls and a right foot.
10) Then deciding to give Mikkelsen the only car with new components and Jokers spent on it for Poland (an event Mikkelsen loves), only for Andreas to get beaten comfortably by the slowest driver in the WRC this season (Lefebvre), who was in an older c3.
11) Now sidelining Lefebvre for 4months, after Lefebvre's only decent drive of the season. Potentially ruining his confidence and rhythm.

The WRC has been superb this season, no doubt. It's as competitive as it's been for 15yrs but that shouldn't hide the fact this has been an absolute shambles of a year for Citroën, and their drivers and management.
Considering their great history in the WRC, Citroen are a big talking point in general. So it's only going to create more talking points and debate (just look at this thread) when they're up Shit Creek.

[AnttiL]

Now finally straight from the horse's mouth:

http://int-media.citroen.com/en/citro%C3%ABn-racing-back-mix


QUESTIONS FOR YVES MATTON, CITROËN RACING TEAM PRINCIPAL
How do you assess the results achieved by Citroën Total Abu Dhabi WRT at Rally Poland?

"As soon as we saw the weather forecast for opening leg of the rally, we knew that our drivers wouldn't be able to challenge at the front. There were two reasons for this: the fact that all our testing with our latest upgrades had been done in dry conditions and their very poor position in the running order. Craig's race was then dealt a body blow at the start with a mechanical issue. Despite these handicaps, nobody in the team became despondent. As soon as the conditions became more even, our drivers moved back into the mix, making use of the work done by the team before the rally. From Friday lunchtime onwards, Andreas, Stéphane and Craig racked up a total of fifteen top-five times at one of the most intense rallies in the history of the WRC. There are no miracles in motorsport: the hard work we have done will take time to pay dividends, especially as the other teams have not rested on their laurels. The last few tenths are always the most difficult to hunt down."

This time out, it was Stéphane Lefebvre that secured the team's best result…

"When I told Stéphane that he wouldn't be competing in Sardinia, I asked him to work even harder in order to prepare for Poland. He had a good race here in 2016 and we knew that he had the potential to pick up a good result. This weekend, he managed to put together all the things he has learned in his time as a professional rally driver. He had the sense to push when he had the confidence to do so and take it a bit easier when the conditions were too tricky. And for once this season, he had a bit of luck too. This result will help to boost Stéphane's confidence."

Having said all that, he won't be competing at the next two rallies?

"In Finland, Kris Meeke, Craig Breen and Khalid Al Qassimi will form our driver line-up. In Germany, the three C3 WRCs will be driven by Kris Meeke, Andreas Mikkelsen and Craig Breen. Stéphane will return to competitive action in Spain. Just like with our mechanics or engineers, the drivers have to know when to act in the best interests of the team, because our priority is to get the best results for Citroën. Stéphane understands this perfectly well. He won't be sitting around during this period though, because he will be taking part in various test sessions."

Did you make the right call to drop Kris Meeke for Rally Poland?

"It's not the first time that this has happened in the WRC: several teams have made adjustments to their driver line-up in the past. I honestly believe that Kris needed a break. The aim is very simple: for Kris to come back in better form than ever, so that we can win together. For the time being, no one can say with any certainty whether we made the right or wrong call. But we couldn't keep doing nothing. We had to take action to end this run of results and I take full responsibility for this decision."

Kris cannot be held solely responsible for the team's poor run. Some questions have been raised about the handling of the car…

"We never said that. It is worth remembering, however, that after each test session, the drivers said they were very happy with the handling of the car. But they were unable to find the same feeling on rallies conditions. That means that some of the directions taken during development of the C3 WRC were not fit for purpose. Once we had taken the step back we needed to take, I asked the technical team to work on some upgrades that would provide the car with greater versatility. There have been a number of changes: upgrades to the suspension at Rally Sweden, upgrades to the transmission in Poland and others will follow over the coming months. This all takes time. With a wider driver range, we are confident in our ability to move faster in the right direction."

You also reorganised the team, with a new technical director…

"Yes, Laurent Fregosi – who had held this post for a year after having previously been chief engineer, chassis, for the C4, DS 3 WRC and C-Elysée WTCC – wanted to return to a more technically-focused role. We therefore appointed Christophe Besse, an engineer who knows Citroën very well since he was involved in work on the Xsara WRC at the start of the 2000s. This change is part of the new foundations established this weekend."

The aim for the 2017 season was to win races. Is that still the case?

"The priority now is to prepare for 2018. Some of the upgrades will need several months of development work and they won't be ready to be introduced until the start of next season. That doesn't mean that we won't win any more events in 2017. At the Tour de Corse, we showed the performance level of the C3 WRC on tarmac… However, I have asked the engineers to focus on development of the car, rather than on specific settings for each rally."

[tomhlord]

Now finally straight from the horse's mouth:

http://int-media.citroen.com/en/citro%C3%ABn-racing-back-mix

Very interesting, thank you for posting.

[Simmi]

Good to see Citroen PR/Matton come out and answer a lot of the lingering questions.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So Christophe Besse appointed as Citroen Racing’s new Technical Director ... is this significant ?

[Rally Power]

Mate if you want to live in an alternate world where everything is rosey, and where you can have your head wedged in the clouds, then this thread isn't the place for you (...)

Not living in a alternate world nor eluding Citroen problems, just trying to underline that Citroen has been treated unfairly by some journos (just like Toyota was before even start competing), that manage to influence the fans opinions.

The misinformation and disapprove environment is such that no one was able to rectify Breen’s Germany leave false news and people are now complaining about Lefebvre being away for a couple of events, only a few time after calling him useless…

Eventually the dust will settle and Citroen will rise to their top level but besides fixing the tech issues they also need to improve their communication effort (this Matton interview on their media link is a good start), otherwise vultures will keep circling around.

[mknight]

What set me off and prbly a lot of other people was the combination of two things (both already mentioned on previous page and countless times before):

1. When VW drivers became available Matton said that "he will answer call from Latvala or Mikkelsen only because he is polite, but they are not french and don't have 4 titles" => not interested
2. They didn't compete most of 2016 to prepare for 2017 and then come up without settings for Monte and Sweden with somehow less than top car

Now after 6 months and beeing dead last in both driver and manu champ. they finally started taking seroius actuion (perhaps too much action).

[mknight]

Now finally straight from the horse's mouth:

Kris cannot be held solely responsible for the team's poor run. Some questions have been raised about the handling of the car…

"We never said that. It is worth remembering, however, that after each test session, the drivers said they were very happy with the handling of the car.

I think this part is rather important. One can understand it as one or both of:

a) The drivers did a bad job at developing the car/ providing feedback/ testing

or

b) The value of repeated runs of short test sections where drivers know every stone is limited - This would also explain why some people were so sure Citroen would decimate all after looking at their test vids in December.

[seb_sh]

b) The value of repeated runs of short test sections where drivers know every stone is limited - This would also explain why some people were so sure Citroen would decimate all after looking at their test vids in December.

This is something that Makinen used to point out about testing and working on setup. At least I think it was Makinen, correct me if i'm wrong. But what he said was as you repeat the same bit of road over and over you learn it and clean it and you end up driving faster than you would on a normal stage, so you have to take that into account.

Maybe during Citroen's test program they focused too much on setup for those roads so that masked some shortcomings to the car. Then it means they did a wrong method of testing.

[AnttiL]

I very much doubt the torque split would have been changed to more than 50 percent front

The Lancia Delta HF 4WD and 8v Integrale had 56/44 torque split. Those cars won three championships. It wasn't until the 16v version (San Remo 1989) that it was changed to 47/53. But yeah, different times, different cars.

[Mirek]

Thanks for the information. That's new for me.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I think this part is rather important.

b) The value of repeated runs of short test sections where drivers know every stone is limited - This would also explain why some people were so sure Citroen would decimate all after looking at their test vids in December.

Great point.

Someone the other day wad saying the cars are looking faster in testing and I think this is the main reason.

You can test all you want... it doesnt replicate a doing a real rally.

[dimviii]

The Lancia Delta HF 4WD and 8v Integrale had 56/44 torque split. Those cars won three championships. It wasn't until the 16v version (San Remo 1989) that it was changed to 47/53. But yeah, different times, different cars.
you are talking about the road cars,or the rally cars?

[dimviii]

I think this part is rather important. One can understand it as one or both of:

a) The drivers did a bad job at developing the car/ providing feedback/ testing

or

b) The value of repeated runs of short test sections where drivers know every stone is limited - This would also explain why some people were so sure Citroen would decimate all after looking at their test vids in December.

so c3 is not good at dry asphalt we saw at tests?

[NickRally]

Thanks for the information. That's new for me.

The same here.

Also as dimviii asked, is this for the road going version or the rally car?

[AnttiL]

you are talking about the road cars,or the rally cars?

http://www.awdwiki.com/en/lancia/#Lancia_Delta_HF

Actually I'm not sure. Was that allowed to be changed in Group A?

[dimviii]

http://www.awdwiki.com/en/lancia/#Lancia_Delta_HF

Actually I'm not sure. Was that allowed to be changed in Group A?

don't know that's why I asked

[Mirek]

I guess it was allowed because I think that Toyota didn't use same viscous coupplings on gr.A cars as on stock cars and those continuously change the torque split (although not in a very controlable way).

[AnttiL]

I guess it was allowed because I think that Toyota didn't use same viscous coupplings on gr.A cars as on stock cars and those continuously change the torque split (although not in a very controlable way).

OK. Sorry for the offtopic :)

[mknight]

so c3 is not good at dry asphalt we saw at tests?

On Monte saturday was mostly dry. C3s of Meeke and Lefevbre were 7-10 place most of the day then a single 3rd place. You might remember/review the live stage from there on wrc+.

This lack of speed was later blamed on "not good settings" by Citroen press release. As it turns out now and Citroen admits it's more of a car issue being too sensitive to perfect settings.
There were test vids from Monte testing with rain/sleet/wet-snow, still looked plenty fast.

[wrc2017]

The testing venues were of particular issue pre-season.

Also why can you not admit also that the fundamental or the car are wrong, u always blame the driver at every opperunity?

Its clearer now the engineering team choose the test venues which suited the car, and gave false hope.

.
I think this part is rather important. One can understand it as one or both of:

a) The drivers did a bad job at developing the car/ providing feedback/ testing

or

b) The value of repeated runs of short test sections where drivers know every stone is limited - This would also explain why some people were so sure Citroen would decimate all after looking at their test vids in December.

[dimviii]

On Monte saturday was mostly dry. C3s of Meeke and Lefevbre were 7-10 place most of the day then a single 3rd place. You might remember/review the live stage from there on wrc+.

This lack of speed was later blamed on "not good settings" by Citroen press release. As it turns out now and Citroen admits it's more of a car issue being too sensitive to perfect settings.
There were test vids from Monte testing with rain/sleet/wet-snow, still looked plenty fast.

why are you talking about Saturday at Monte that was mostly dry,and don't talk about Corsica which was bone dry? Monte has compromises at set up,its not a dry setup.
Ok we have understand that you are not a citroen/ Meeke fun,but Meeke after 4 stages was 10 sec faster than the 4 time champion and 25 sec faster from the faster driver this year Neville. It was the SAME as we had seen and talk at tests.Exactly the SAME!!!
All teams use to test at small distance stages which make repeat passes.Citroen didnt test someway different from other teams,or from what was testing at previous years.
The problem wasn't at this point.

[NickRally]

OK. Sorry for the offtopic :)

Just to finish this OT, apologies, I did some searching and it appears the road car was 56/44 front/rear, I assume to reflect the weight distribution.

I also found the link below stating that the rally car had the following centre diff split options: 50/50, 40/60 and 45/55 front/rear - there is no guarantee of course this info is accurate, but I suspect with the higher power and grip of the rally version, the engineers would have catered for the greater longitudinal weight transfer plus handling benefits of slightly greater rear torque percentage and have gone for the above options.

http://tech-racingcars.wikidot.com/lancia-delta-hf-4wd

[Mirek]

With stock cars it makes sense to have more torque on the front axle to ease the handling for not that good and experienced drivers. I don't know how in 80' but novadays stock cars are generally made to understeer in critical situation so that possible crash comes at best frontally.

[mknight]

why are you talking about Saturday at Monte that was mostly dry,and don't talk about Corsica which was bone dry? Monte has compromises at set up,its not a dry setup.
Ok we have understand that you are not a citroen/ Meeke fun,but Meeke after 4 stages was 10 sec faster than the 4 time champion and 25 sec faster from the faster driver this year Neville. It was the SAME as we had seen and talk at tests.Exactly the SAME!!!
All teams use to test at small distance stages which make repeat passes.Citroen didnt test someway different from other teams,or from what was testing at previous years.
The problem wasn't at this point.

You completely missed Matton's point, that I am trying to emphasize with examples.

The car is fast when the setup is perfect for the conditions, something that is easy to do for test or a stable conditions/road rally = Corsica.

Whole day at monte is not stable conditions with some ice bits here and there => bad performance. Testing for Monte is stable conditions (same road, memorized by drivers), even with some minor weather changes => good looking test and feedback.

The problem clearly was at that point, the "sensitivity" of the car itself was not revealed by the tests. (without speculating who's fault that is, you can blame anyone depending on your angle, designers for design choices, drivers for feedback, people setting up the tests... team management for not getting other test drivers etc etc.)

[dimviii]

just forreference all road evos have distribution at 50-50

[mknight]

The testing venues were of particular issue pre-season.

Also why can you not admit also that the fundamental or the car are wrong, u always blame the driver at every opperunity?

Its clearer now the engineering team choose the test venues which suited the car, and gave false hope.

.

It's not clearer to me at all, any test venue that runs over a day or more will prbly suit the car after you change the setup enough.
The two options I listed is the two possible meanings of Matton's statement, not my opinion.

I personally don't blame drivers only for how the C3 started. I do blame Meeke for Argentina 2nd off-Portugal-Sardinia if that's what you are asking.

[dimviii]

You completely missed Matton's point, that I am trying to emphasize with examples.

The car is fast when the setup is perfect for the conditions, something that is easy to do for test or a stable conditions/road rally = Corsica.

Whole day at monte is not stable conditions with some ice bits here and there => bad performance. Testing for Monte is stable conditions (same road, memorized by drivers), even with some minor weather changes => good looking test and feedback.

The problem clearly was at that point, the "sensitivity" of the car itself was not revealed by the tests. (without speculating who's fault that is, you can blame anyone depending on your angle, designers for design choices, drivers for feedback, people setting up the tests... team management for not getting other test drivers etc etc.)

I was talking about that you wrote.




b) The value of repeated runs of short test sections where drivers know every stone is limited - This would also explain why some people were so sure Citroen would decimate all after looking at their test vids in December.

Again one more time.
People watching ultra fast passes at dry tarmac and impressed,and exactly the same we saw at Corsica. Ultra fast car at dry stages.Cant say it more clear.
Repeated short stage tests doing all teams,not Citroen only.
Problem is not there.

[mknight]

Again one more time.
People watching ultra fast passes at dry tarmac and impressed,and exactly the same we saw at Corsica. Ultra fast car at dry stages.Cant say it more clear.
Repeated short stage tests doing all teams,not Citroen only.
Problem is not there.

I give up.
Tests didn't reveal how sensitive the car was to perfect setup (Matton's claim based on driver feedback to tests) that IS a problem.

[wrc2017]

Well in your opinion you now must agree the fundamental car design, tech team, and test venue hold a fair majority of the blame.

On Meeke 2nd crash at Argentina,
In a previous post, it told you to look at in car video wrc+. At 200kmh the front of the car was wandering from side to side, and he effectively understeer off the road. My opinion, that the rear wing was fitted incorrectly after the first crash, giving way too much downforce on the rear. It totally evident from the video if you care to look.
It's not clearer to me at all, any test venue that runs over a day or more will prbly suit the car after you change the setup enough.
The two options I listed is the two possible meanings of Matton's statement, not my opinion.

I personally don't blame drivers only for how the C3 started. I do blame Meeke for Argentina 2nd off-Portugal-Sardinia if that's what you are asking.

[dimviii]

I give up.
Tests didn't reveal how sensitive the car was to perfect setup (Matton's claim based on driver feedback to tests) that IS a problem.

I answer to your post, that you are reffering at the short repeated tests,and that some people had misjudjed that c3 was fast at dry asphalt.
Not what Matton says.My quote was very clear.

[wrc2017]

But if the test venue were not representative of rally? Whos fault is that?

I give up.
Tests didn't reveal how sensitive the car was to perfect setup (Matton's claim based on driver feedback to tests) that IS a problem.

[mknight]

But if the test venue were not representative of rally? Whos fault is that?

That's going to the speculation part I mentioned
"you can blame anyone depending on your angle, designers for design choices, drivers for feedback, people setting up the tests... team management for not getting other test drivers etc etc."

[wrc2017]

I can tell you now... the driver doesnt pick the test road. So speculation over.
That's going to the speculation part I mentioned
"you can blame anyone depending on your angle, designers for design choices, drivers for feedback, people setting up the tests... team management for not getting other test drivers etc etc."

[Sulland]

So Christophe Besse appointed as Citroen Racing’s new Technical Director ... is this significant ?

What has he done before this job?

[wrc2017]

http://www.autohebdo.fr/wrc/actualites/christophe-besse-nouveau-directeur-technique-de-citroen-186925.html


What has he done before this job?

[KKS]

On Meeke 2nd crash at Argentina,
In a previous post, it told you to look at in car video wrc+. At 200kmh the front of the car was wandering from side to side, and he effectively understeer off the road. My opinion, that the rear wing was fitted incorrectly after the first crash, giving way too much downforce on the rear. It totally evident from the video if you care to look.
It was a same as in Sardegna or Sweden - rear went wide and clip a bank. Speed was big and that small touch start roll-over.

[itix]

Sorry to continue off topic... but could someone please explain in a technical way to my dumb brain how torque split can be anything other than 50/50 over a differential unless said differential is toque vectoring (like evo rear diff or various lexus diffs etc etc). Provided all wheels have the same amount of grip and there is no differential speed, the amount of force sent on both the pinion gears should be exactly equal.

[macebig]

An interesting read on a torque split prototype transmission and diff:https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/peugeot-405-turbo-16-group-s-prototype/

[itix]

An interesting read on a torque split prototype transmission and diff:https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/peugeot-405-turbo-16-group-s-prototype/

Not sure if you were replying to me but that doesn't really go into technical details. I was looking for a mechanical explanation how more force could go out one pinion gear rather than the other when the spider gear should put equal force on both when rotating together with the ring gear.

[fecksfx]

Planetary gears arrangement give torque split options other than 50:50. Normal spider gears give exactly 50:50

[itix]

Planetary gears arrangement give torque split options other than 50:50. Normal spider gears give exactly 50:50

Thanks, didn't know about them! much appreciated!

[Mirek]

What has he done before this job?

https://fr.linkedin.com/in/christophe-besse-24586846

[NickRally]

Thanks, didn't know about them! much appreciated!

itix, below are couple of simple images I sketched, to give you an idea how an asymmetrical diff can physically look. Most asymmetric diffs actually do not use this arrangement, but this is a simple way of representing an asymmetric diff and should you decide to use such simple design in your vehicle, it will still perform such function.

So here it is starting with an image of symmetric diff for reference:

http://www.geocities.ws/rallytech/mech/diff_symmetric_1.jpg

And the asymmetric one:

http://www.geocities.ws/rallytech/mech/diff_asymmetric_2.jpg

You can see how in the asymmetric diff, one of the side gears is smaller than the other which would result in smaller torque being applied to the shaft connected to that side gear.

[OldF]

Nick, that’s a solution I’ve never seen before. Does such differential actually exist?



Audi has a nice looking solution for torque split. This crown gear differential has a torque split front/rear = 40/60. The rear axle is rotated with a bigger diameter/radius than the front axle and therefore get more torque.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/4WD_1.html

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/Crowngear_LSD_2.jpg

A video of how it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ9x9jHkTrg



The figure on page 311 explains the torque split of a planetary differential (Old Ford with a front/rear torque split 34/66).

https://books.google.fi/books?id=2_QQtv4pFoIC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=ferguson+type+centre+diff&source=bl&ots=J8bsFEYGqK&sig=NovB3pZYoLHdeY_JYH_F5rx800g&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjNqJndiJvTAhVFkiwKHROuC8wQ6AEIazAN#v=on epage&q=ferguson%20type%20centre%20diff&f=false



Mitsubishi 3000GT AWD System http://www.stealth316.com/2-awd3.htm

http://www.stealth316.com/images/cdvcu.jpg

http://www.stealth316.com/images/cdvcu_insp.jpg

[KKS]

The aim for the 2017 season was to win races. Is that still the case?

"The priority now is to prepare for 2018. Some of the upgrades will need several months of development work and they won't be ready to be introduced until the start of next season. That doesn't mean that we won't win any more events in 2017. At the Tour de Corse, we showed the performance level of the C3 WRC on tarmac… However, I have asked the engineers to focus on development of the car, rather than on specific settings for each rally."
Prepare to 2018? How? Let same engineers come to same drawing-desk with same philosophy? For what reason it should be something rather than C3 again?

I think that they must found a problem of C3 and a solution. Test at 2017 rallies and if it works - it's make a car a way faster, even to 2018 year.

They are "prepare" with same approach with same stuff and we see what kind of results they have

[Sulland]

https://fr.linkedin.com/in/christophe-besse-24586846

So he has been there, and done that!

[NickRally]

Nick, that’s a solution I’ve never seen before. Does such differential actually exist?



Audi has a nice looking solution for torque split. This crown gear differential has a torque split front/rear = 40/60. The rear axle is rotated with a bigger diameter/radius than the front axle and therefore get more torque.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/4WD_1.html

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/Crowngear_LSD_2.jpg

A video of how it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ9x9jHkTrg



The figure on page 311 explains the torque split of a planetary differential (Old Ford with a front/rear torque split 34/66).

https://books.google.fi/books?id=2_QQtv4pFoIC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=ferguson+type+centre+diff&source=bl&ots=J8bsFEYGqK&sig=NovB3pZYoLHdeY_JYH_F5rx800g&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjNqJndiJvTAhVFkiwKHROuC8wQ6AEIazAN#v=on epage&q=ferguson%20type%20centre%20diff&f=false



Mitsubishi 3000GT AWD System http://www.stealth316.com/2-awd3.htm

http://www.stealth316.com/images/cdvcu.jpg

http://www.stealth316.com/images/cdvcu_insp.jpg

Hi OldF, yes I have seen one many many years ago, though they are not popular at all, but I found this scheme useful for visualizing the principal of asymmetric diff as it can be directly compared to a symmetric one.

[itix]

itix, below are couple of simple images I sketched, to give you an idea how an asymmetrical diff can physically look. Most asymmetric diffs actually do not use this arrangement, but this is a simple way of representing an asymmetric diff and should you decide to use such simple design in your vehicle, it will still perform such function.

So here it is starting with an image of symmetric diff for reference:

http://www.geocities.ws/rallytech/mech/diff_symmetric_1.jpg

And the asymmetric one:

http://www.geocities.ws/rallytech/mech/diff_asymmetric_2.jpg

You can see how in the asymmetric diff, one of the side gears is smaller than the other which would result in smaller torque being applied to the shaft connected to that side gear.
That makes sense, thanks a bunch!
The larger pinion gear on one side would create a larger torque due to its larger radius.

[NickRally]

That makes sense, thanks a bunch!
The larger pinion gear on one side would create a larger torque due to its larger radius.
Correct.
I am pleased it was useful.

[itix]

Nick, that’s a solution I’ve never seen before. Does such differential actually exist?



Audi has a nice looking solution for torque split. This crown gear differential has a torque split front/rear = 40/60. The rear axle is rotated with a bigger diameter/radius than the front axle and therefore get more torque.
etc etc

Very interesting also. Somehow I doubt the center diff on WRC cars are viscous couplings though. They intuitively seem like a big wear point (but I could be wrong).

[Eli]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130571/citroen-meeke-needed-a-break

[AnttiL]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130571/citroen-meeke-needed-a-break

Just quotes from the Matton interview I posted a couple of days ago.

[Eli]

Just quotes from the Matton interview I posted a couple of days ago.

Just shows you how slow are Autosport with their news....

[mknight]

Anyway on the topic of Meeke in Finland. No matter how he performs people will always point out that they were right and others were wrong.

If he does well
- fans will say it shows he should have never been dropped
- the other side will say it shows that getting dropped made him more stable

If he does bad
- fans will say it's because of the pressure after he was dropped
- opponents will say it shows it was right to drop him and that he has serious issues

But clearly for his future not only at Citroen but also in other teams It will be rather important. Worst he can do is push and crash along the way, even if it's from 1 min lead on last stage. That said driving carefully and ending 8th without any top positions probably won't help either. Anything above 6th (or more precisely after Neuville, Ogier, Latvala, Tanak, Paddon but before all the rest), should be ok. Top3 result beating 1-2 of those will be like a win.

[wrc2017]

One the other hand, anything less than a dominant win (like 2016), will be a true measure of the deficit of the shortcomings of the car. If he does manage to pull the rabbit out of the hat... well... what do you say... he is a legend in Finland, or they have sorted the car? Suppose it depends on his advantage over his team mate. Still dont quite understand why Mikkelsen is not entered in Finland? It it truly because there was no car, or Mikkelsen really didnt want to do it? Still, I think the team needs to give a very clear public statment of what they want from Meeke, but at the minute it looks like they are pushing him for a win, to pull them out of the PR shithole.
Anyway on the topic of Meeke in Finland. No matter how he performs people will always point out that they were right and others were wrong.

If he does well
- fans will say it shows he should have never been dropped
- the other side will say it shows that getting dropped made him more stable

If he does bad
- fans will say it's because of the pressure after he was dropped
- opponents will say it shows it was right to drop him and that he has serious issues

But clearly for his future not only at Citroen but also in other teams It will be rather important. Worst he can do is push and crash along the way, even if it's from 1 min lead on last stage. That said driving carefully and ending 8th without any top positions probably won't help either. Anything above 6th (or more precisely after Neuville, Ogier, Latvala, Tanak, Paddon but before all the rest), should be ok. Top3 result beating 1-2 of those will be like a win.

[racerx1979]

I agree. If he stays in the top 5 or even gets a 4th place which is would be better than any other Citroen driver has done as of yet he will look good.

[mknight]

One the other hand, anything less than a dominant win (like 2016), will be a true measure of the deficit of the shortcomings of the car. If he does manage to pull the rabbit out of the hat... well... what do you say... he is a legend in Finland, or they have sorted the car? Suppose it depends on his advantage over his team mate. Still dont quite understand why Mikkelsen is not entered in Finland? It it truly because there was no car, or Mikkelsen really didnt want to do it? Still, I think the team needs to give a very clear public statment of what they want from Meeke, but at the minute it looks like they are pushing him for a win, to pull them out of the PR shithole.

For reality check last year he was driving as 10th on the road for 3 whole days. In Finland the differences are often rather small so even 0.1-0.2 s/km possible advantage makes a big difference. And yes due to results so far this year he will also have very good road position on friday, but on saturday it should get much more even.

The only thing Citroen does not want him to do is to crash (especially early in the rally). Anything above 6th is good, 3rd and better is very good. (off course depending whom you actually beat and how Breen does)

Historically Finland is prbly Mikkelsen's worst rally, second only to Sardinia. Last year he won 2 stages, and was 3rd, then Ogier had a brake problem and Mikkelsen had to clean the road for rest of Saturday... dropping 5 places. Before that he has one 4th place as best. So I don't think he was very eager to push for Finland start. Breen was 3rd last year in his first ever podium and therefore was a clear candidate to drive. So it was prbly mutual agreement. For Mikkelsen's career prospects it's much better to get a drive on tarmac in Germany, I think he is now eager to try other options than helping Citroen fix the car, seeing that drivers from all 3 other manufacturers are fighting for the title.

[wrc2017]

For reality check last year he was driving as 10th on the road for 3 whole days. In Finland the differences are often rather small so even 0.1-0.2 s/km possible advantage makes a big difference. And yes due to results so far this year he will also have very good road position on friday, but on saturday it should get much more even.

Of all the gravel rallys this is the least, if any, advantage for road position. he was substantially faster than other driver around him. anyways, we will see.



The only thing Citroen does not want him to do is to crash (especially early in the rally). Anything above 6th is good, 3rd and better is very good. (off course depending whom you actually beat and how Breen does)

My point is Citroen need to say that in the pre event presser. no?



Historically Finland is prbly Mikkelsen's worst rally, second only to Sardinia.

right, so Poland was supposed to be his best.

[mknight]

Of all the gravel rallys this is the least, if any, advantage for road position. he was substantially faster than other driver around him. anyways, we will see.

He was 0.7s ahead of Tanak (who had same road position), before Tanak crashed. Fact is all of Meeke's rally wins have been on gravel rallies where he started at least 5 positions behind, so quite hard to judge his real gravel speed vs others. On rally GB last year in wet conditions he wasn't exactly beating everyone.
But hey this year he has road position advantage again.



My point is Citroen need to say that in the pre event presser. no?


What they say in press release is totally up to them, don't think it helped Meeke in any way when they said before Argentina that they go for rally wins.



right, so Poland was supposed to be his best.

The fact that Poland is historically Mikkelsen's best rally does not mean he will perform best on it every single time.

This year he was a little faster than Lefevbre if you remove all the timeloss from 4!!! off-road excursions. That means 4th or 5th place speed-wise. He also scored Citroen's best powerstage result of the year (discarding Lefevbre in Monte on dry tarmac, where it was snowing for everyone else). Given Citroen's huge issues on Friday and road positions on Saturday it was ok result, not good, not terribly bad either.

[OldF]

Very interesting also. Somehow I doubt the center diff on WRC cars are viscous couplings though. They intuitively seem like a big wear point (but I could be wrong).

All the active WRC teams (Subaru, Ford, Toyota, Mitsubishi) in 1995 had from New Zealand and onwards active centre differentials. In an interview made by Martin Holmes, the chief engineer of Mitsubishi Roland Lloyd said that the lock itself can be either viscous or a disk pack or a combination of them. Different activation solution can also be used but the hydraulic is most convenient because of its size.

I also doubt that viscous locking systems aren’t used anymore.

[Simmi]

Lefebvre gets an additional R5 outing at the Rally Madeira Vinho.

https://twitter.com/CitroenRacing/status/883363227714957312

I assume Fontes is still injured after that Rallye Portugal crash?

[Andre Oliveira]

Yes, Fontes still in recovering. He ask Lefebvre to replace him as marketing tool (Fontes’ team is official supplier of Citroën Racing in Portugal and Spain) and to help win portuguese teams cup.

[Andre Oliveira]

Good to Stéphane. 3 months between Poland and Spain.

[wrc2017]

He was 0.7s ahead of Tanak (who had same road position), before Tanak crashed. Fact is all of Meeke's rally wins have been on gravel rallies where he started at least 5 positions behind, so quite hard to judge his real gravel speed vs others.
Isn't Tanak supposed to be the new Vatanen.. the fastest man? Meeke's fastest time on Ouninpohja by 14s was all road position. Your questioning his speed now. OK, got it..


On rally GB last year in wet conditions he wasn't exactly beating everyone. You obviously don't know to much about Rally GB. When the wet slate surface turns polished. you cant get mechanical grip, on top of that, we all know what happens after Poland when the car has no grip.


What they say in press release is totally up to them, im suggesting what they should say.




The fact that Poland is historically Mikkelsen's best rally does not mean he will perform best on it every single time.

If he cant get a result on his best rally, explains the decision not to go to Finland, i guess.



This year he was a little faster than Lefevbre if you remove all the timeloss from 4!!! off-road excursions. That means 4th or 5th place speed-wise. He also scored Citroen's best powerstage result of the year (discarding Lefevbre in Monte on dry tarmac, where it was snowing for everyone else). Are you taking the mick now? Stop trying to polish a turd. It was a just short of disaster. Any of those offs could have resulting him in flipping onto his roof and bending the cage. And his car had all the upgrades? Gone is any chance of Citroen attracting another top line driver. So Lefevbre was the target, here is me thinking, it was at least a podium.

[mknight]

Isn't Tanak supposed to be the new Vatanen.. the fastest man? Meeke's fastest time on Ouninpohja by 14s was all road position. Your questioning his speed now. OK, got it..

You obviously don't know to much about Rally GB. When the wet slate surface turns polished. you cant get mechanical grip, on top of that, we all know what happens after Poland when the car has no grip.



I'll repeat myself again. Meeke has not won a rally where he didn't have clear road position advantage, that's just how it is. It is entirely funny when numerous people call him fastest man in WRC based on these gravel rallies and the few stages between crashes here and there. Also it's interesting when you bring out how slippery wet gravel gets for late starters when in rally Poland all 3 Citroen drivers had huge issues on Friday because of that. You even point that out.... and right in next chapter you go on to criticize how the drivers in Poland did. So did they do epic in spite of bad car or fail miserably? Meeke's performance in GB last year was in DS3 so don't get what connection it has with C3 issues in wet.





If he cant get a result on his best rally, explains the decision not to go to Finland, i guess.


Are you taking the mick now? Stop trying to polish a turd. It was a just short of disaster. Any of those offs could have resulting him in flipping onto his roof and bending the cage. And his car had all the upgrades? Gone is any chance of Citroen attracting another top line driver. So Lefevbre was the target, here is me thinking, it was at least a podium.

1. off course, that was the point, when Finland is not one of his best rallies and he didn't do all that good in Poland, why go to Finland. Wrote that 3 posts ago in plain text.

2. 3 of the 4 offs were "safe" much in the same way as those by Tanak(field on 2nd day), Ogier (field on 3rd day).. and much safer than Neuville's sideways jump that resulted in the puncture. Also on Sunday he could have tried to make the turn like Tanak and Sunninen and hope for the best, instead he chose to go straight along the road for no risk. The first one could have ended in same retirement like Lappi had yes.
That said today drivers watch every stage on vid. numerous times. With only a few stages re-run each day they know just about every corner. So it's totally not coincidence where some offs happen. Mikkelsen said it himself how he was reviewing that one stage where he went off numerous times before. Same for Ogier on the field in Monte. They know it's safer to push so they push a bit extra.

Gone is any chance of Citroen attracting another top line driver

Yes that's 100% true, after Sardinia there might have been doubts, after Poland it's very unlikely others are interested until Citroen show stable good results in at least 2 rallies in a row. (again explains why Mikkelsen probably wasn't interested in Finland)

I didn't write anywhere that Lefevbre was the target. I wrote how Mikkelsen did and that it was not good, but not terribly bad either (and certainly massive improvement over Sardinia). Seems like you are seeing things that just aren't written.
On the other hand there are some facts that are quite funny:
1. First time Citroen had 2 cars in top 10 (in 8th rally of the season!!!)
2. Best Citroen PowerStage result so far comes from a replacement driver in his 2nd rally in the car, on wet, with setup made during the rally. (yes, not like every driver was competing it, but that's how it is on most powerstages).

One or multiple parts of the Citroen package (team, car, drivers) have issues. You seem to think it's only the cars/engineer's fault, I don't think the reality is that simple.
Still a bit of a shame as it would be nice to have 4 equal teams. On the other hand on a bit selfish note, it's better than Citroen dominating VW-style.

[itix]

Regardless of the debate of Meeke vs Citroen and who is at fault, the fact is that Meeke is no longer championship winning material (he probably never was, I and some others just had gold colored spectacles on). If this was Ogier, he'd do pretty much what he does now in Ford. Bag what points he can and win where he can. Meeke tries waaaay too hard and end up crashing every single event so no matter how much of a Meeke fan you are, you should be able to realise that he would never become champion. Ogier however might likely have had a chance at a championship title in a Citroen (but probably wouldn't have got it in the end).

This goes (again) to show how important an aspect the driver is in our championship.

[wrc2017]

I'll repeat myself again. Meeke has not won a rally where he didn't have clear road position advantage, that's just how it is. It is entirely funny when numerous people call him fastest man in WRC based on these gravel rallies and the few stages between crashes here and there. Also it's interesting when you bring out how slippery wet gravel gets for late starters when in rally Poland all 3 Citroen drivers had huge issues on Friday because of that. You even point that out.... and right in next chapter you go on to criticize how the drivers in Poland did. So did they do epic in spite of bad car or fail miserably? Meeke's performance in GB last year was in DS3 so don't get what connection it has with C3 issues in wet. Yes, I am criticizing both. Its entirely the same issue with DS3, both dampers and traction. The DS3 was never a match, for example the VW, and he went very close to winning in Monte, and Sweden in 2016 against Ogier, both to have car failure. Look, you dont like him, and will always seem to find fact that suit your argument. But the fast is.. he is one of 3/4 fastest in the WRC.





1. off course, that was the point, when Finland is not one of his best rallies and he didn't do all that good in Poland, why go to Finland. Wrote that 3 posts ago in plain text. not a great all rounder then.


2. 3 of the 4 offs were "safe" much in the same way as those by Tanak(field on 2nd day), Ogier (field on 3rd day).. and much safer than Neuville's sideways jump that resulted in the puncture. Also on Sunday he could have tried to make the turn like Tanak and Sunninen and hope for the best, instead he chose to go straight along the road for no risk. The first one could have ended in same retirement like Lappi had yes.
That said today drivers watch every stage on vid. numerous times. With only a few stages re-run each day they know just about every corner. So it's totally not coincidence where some offs happen. Mikkelsen said it himself how he was reviewing that one stage where he went off numerous times before. Same for Ogier on the field in Monte. They know it's safer to push so they push a bit extra. Oh, so now one of Mikkelsen skill is the picking the right place to go off on. brilliant.





Gone is any chance of Citroen attracting another top line driver

Yes that's 100% true, after Sardinia there might have been doubts, after Poland it's very unlikely others are interested until Citroen show stable good results in at least 2 rallies in a row. (again explains why Mikkelsen probably wasn't interested in Finland)

I didn't write anywhere that Lefevbre was the target. I wrote how Mikkelsen did and that it was not good, but not terribly bad either (and certainly massive improvement over Sardinia). Seems like you are seeing things that just aren't written.
On the other hand there are some facts that are quite funny:
1. First time Citroen had 2 cars in top 10 (in 8th rally of the season!!!)
2. Best Citroen PowerStage result so far comes from a replacement driver in his 2nd rally in the car, on wet, with setup made during the rally. (yes, not like every driver was competing it, but that's how it is on most powerstages).

One or multiple parts of the Citroen package (team, car, drivers) have issues. You seem to think it's only the cars/engineer's fault, I don't think the reality is that simple.
Still a bit of a shame as it would be nice to have 4 equal teams. On the other hand on a bit selfish note, it's better than Citroen dominating VW-style.

Great so Citroen have no hope, cause everyone realises the car issues. So if Meeke can get a win or a few podium, his stock will immediately improve. if it hasnt already ready done so.. by not even competiting in Poland.

[racerx1979]

If anything, Meekes stock has been crashing ;).

[itix]

Yes, I am criticizing both. Its entirely the same issue with DS3, both dampers and traction. The DS3 was never a match, for example the VW, and he went very close to winning in Monte, and Sweden in 2016 against Ogier, both to have car failure. Look, you dont like him, and will always seem to find fact that suit your argument. But the fast is.. he is one of 3/4 fastest in the WRC.


If we go by individual stage performances, Kubica was also one of the fastest in the WRC. The difference is that Kubica was funded by himself/sponsors, not by a world rally team. One would expect more from a professional paid driver. Meeke has been nothing short of a disgrace this year.

[wrc2017]

Of course you are right.. winning a wrc event and leading another when engine failed. Utter digrace from your keyboard.
If we go by individual stage performances, Kubica was also one of the fastest in the WRC. The difference is that Kubica was funded by himself/sponsors, not by a world rally team. One would expect more from a professional paid driver. Meeke has been nothing short of a disgrace this year.

[AnttiL]

Meeke also was in the lead in the beginning of Portugal and Sardegna and second in Argentina before crashing out.

[wrc2017]

Id like to know what itix is a professional in.

[noel157]

Have to say this place feels like it's going downhill at times judging by recent posts. One guy spending a lot of time looking up stats on eWRC and writing long posts to back up his hatred of Meeke. Another calling him a disgrace and a complete idiot, another who feels the need to start a league table of accidents, another who thinks marshals and prohibited areas are not needed and spectators can stand on the stages......hope things can improve because members who contribute nonsense like the above do nothing for a great rally forum in my opinion.

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/d/2017/07/06/citroen-durchkreuzt-ogier-die-mikkelsen-plaene/

Google Translated:



The four-time champion recently opened up a possibility. Citroën Teamchef Yves Matton came under great pressure after the failed comeback and now seems to be ready to consider his driver's choice. Kris Meeke, Craig Breen and Stephane Lefebvre have a contract for 2018, but the last rallies showed how little the guarantee is for a WRC cockpit, when Andreas Mikkelsen came as a substitute driver for two assignments. Since then, Ogier has been philosophizing publicly about his future, but all doors are now closed in France.

"We have some ideas and know which drivers are on the market," said Matton, "Motorsport aktuell". For reasons of budget, Citroën can only afford another high-caliber, even if the Matton does not want to admit directly. "The only thing I can rule out is that more than one new driver is going to be added." In other words, Ogier, or Mikkelsen.

Maybe someone who knows German can check the article and tell what is actually said?

[Norm75]

Lol Citroen teamchef. Is that Yves job title next year!

[noel157]

The Google translation seems clear enough.

[mknight]

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/d/2017/07/06/citroen-durchkreuzt-ogier-die-mikkelsen-plaene/

Maybe someone who knows German can check the article and tell what is actually said?

It's basically exactly the same speculations we had in the 2018 team topic.

The only "new" ideas is that Citroen can/want only 1 new driver which means either Ogier or Mikkelsen. And the repeated point that came in the topic here that Latvala would not work well with Ogier in same team.

But one of their main points (and article title) is that Ogier could stop Mikkelsen's plans to go to Citroen. Personally I don't think Citroen is Mikkelsen's first choice for next season, maybe not even 2nd. Probably the same applies to Ogier.

-----------------

For the record:
I have nothing against Meeke. He is a good driver that certainly still deserves a seat. The only topics I have issues with are:

1. Based on his results over that last 3 years I really don't get how some people still rank him as one of the main possible title challengers. Is he fast? Sure. Is he stable and/or significantly faster than others? Nope.

2. If he is to improve his stability he seriously needs some change (team orders?, mental coach?, different co-driver?), saying that crashing 4 times in 3 consecutive rallies in a row is only cars fault will clearly not make Meeke get more stable. (or more wanted by other teams)

[racerx1979]

Have to say this place feels like it's going downhill at times judging by recent posts. One guy spending a lot of time looking up stats on eWRC and writing long posts to back up his hatred of Meeke. Another calling him a disgrace and a complete idiot, another who feels the need to start a league table of accidents, another who thinks marshals and prohibited areas are not needed and spectators can stand on the stages......hope things can improve because members who contribute nonsense like the above do nothing for a great rally forum in my opinion.

What he said ^^

[sonnybobiche]

Have to say this place feels like it's going downhill at times judging by recent posts. One guy spending a lot of time looking up stats on eWRC and writing long posts to back up his hatred of Meeke. Another calling him a disgrace and a complete idiot, another who feels the need to start a league table of accidents, another who thinks marshals and prohibited areas are not needed and spectators can stand on the stages......hope things can improve because members who contribute nonsense like the above do nothing for a great rally forum in my opinion.


Sorry to let you down and bring this forum into disrepute! I shall bring my ideas into line with yours immediately!

[EstWRC]

and we go again.....

[AnttiL]

The only "new" ideas is that Citroen can/want only 1 new driver which means either Ogier or Mikkelsen.

But the first time Matton actually says they could hire a new driver for 2018. Before this we knew only that the three current guys have contracts for 2018 and that's it.

[Eli]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130675/citroen-writes-off-2017-wrc-season

[racerx1979]

So they brought in Mikkelsen to make sure what Kris was asking for is actually correct? The article is written in a bizarre way with weird twists. They added some interesting lines between the quotes... these journalists are having a field day with Citroen and I'm eating it all up :/

[AndyRAC]

So, they're writing off 2017 to prepare for 2018.......... Marvellous....

Unless I'm much mistaken, they used 2016 to prepare for 2017; so they would hit the ground running. Yet, they turned up in Monte not ready.......

[Eli]

So, they're writing off 2017 to prepare for 2018.......... Marvellous....

Unless I'm much mistaken, they used 2016 to prepare for 2017; so they would hit the ground running. Yet, they turned up in Monte not ready.......
So maybe they'll write off 2018/9 to be ready for 2020 when new regulations will come into play (as the current regulations run for the 2017-2019 seasons). ;)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[olemann]

Citoen will come back and crush the dummies in this forum trying to ridicule them.

[Eli]

Citoen will come back and crush the dummies in this forum trying to ridicule them.
I was just joking, but in all honesty I do truly hope that Citroën will be back to their winning ways asap, really, will be very nice to see 4 manufacturers fighting for wins during the season.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[sonnybobiche]

Hopefully not too successful, though. I was pretty tired of it by 2012...

[racerx1979]

Bo knows rally!

[RAS007]

Hopefully not too successful, though. I was pretty tired of it by 2012...

This.

[Rally Power]

Citoen will come back and crush the dummies in this forum trying to ridicule them.

By the tone of your post, probably they'll get this management team...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfUM5xHUY4M

[Norm75]

By the tone of your post, probably they'll get this management team...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfUM5xHUY4M
You are kidding, we have just the guys for the job here in England.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Agcs1SC78E

p.s no need to click on the link if you value 13 minutes and 40 seconds of your life.

[Barreis]

they need better team boss

[Sulland]

Smart of VW to take back Capito in a role, and by that not risking the VW knowhow being spread.

But some engineers from VW seems like a good idea!

I do not know Matton, but maybe it is time for him to look elsewhere.
I would also form a wide test team, with drivers of different styles, to be sure the car responds well to set-up changes.

[Rally Power]

You are kidding, we have just the guys for the job here in England.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Agcs1SC78E

p.s no need to click on the link if you value 13 minutes and 40 seconds of your life.

Actually, it took only 1m to see that those guys are perfect for the job. Do they speak French?

[Norm75]

Actually, it took only 1m to see that those guys are perfect for the job. Do they speak French?

No, that is just a northern version of English :)

[AnttiL]

http://media.groupe-psa.com/en/s%C3%A9bastien-loeb-showcases-his-unique-talent-all-groupe-psa-brands?linkId=40208150

They're bringing Loeb in for a test.

[Andre Oliveira]

Finally