Vodafone Rally de Portugal 2012

[HarriK]

Applause for Citroen! FCUK!

[jonkka]

Novikov now is the youngest, Giraudet now the oldest on podium.

In order to prove that, please provide birth dates for all drivers on this list:
juwra.com**|**Statistics - Driver podium finishes (http://www.juwra.com/driver_statistics_podiums.html)

[bluuford]

from memory, that part was homologated but the new drawings not present in the documents they produced in Australia.
Yes, you are correct.This time it is much more serious.
Something is wrong in Citroen. Ford has closed the gap to Citroen (in terms of speed) and wins as many or even more stages than Citroen compared to last year (Ford has won 46 SS and Citroen 32ss). However, their value is still the reliability and their drivers. Now this big mistake with non-homologated part. Causes of managemnt change?

[HarriK]

GP Week : Issue 147, Page 1 (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=14)

[Janez]

Usually I'm very rational person, but...

What if that was just a Citroens game in favour of mr Loeb. They can't afford their The One (and huge trademark) being beaten by Mikko, immediately after the finn got a compettitive car.

[N.O.T]

Usually I'm very rational person, but...

What if that was just a Citroens game in favour of mr Loeb. They can't afford their The One (and huge trademark) being beaten by Mikko, immediately after the finn got a compettitive car.

Every teams goal is the manufacturer title... drivers title comes second... and if they want so badly Loeb to get the title they can sabotage mikkos car instead of getting him excluded and be marked as cheater team...

you are not very rational i think...

[Sulland]

This has really been an eventful rally!

Weather creats uneven playing field
Loeb out, can not join in rally 2
2 x Ford out from the lead in ss 5&6
Hirvonen leads
2 x private fords fight for podium
Solberg catches up fast, then has a powersteering issue
2wd academy cars are stuck in the mud
Hirvonen wins
Østberg with another 2 nd
Novikov youngest podium finisher
Hirvonen excluded, clutch
Østberg gets first win
Novikov gets 2 nd
Solberg gets 3 rd
Championship wide open
Citroen apeals

Who knows what will happen next!?

Pls follow the next episode of the Portugal saga!!

[euskalteam]

Ford, for the window issue, got a 5 mins. penalty for all the Focus WRC if I don't remember bad. They weren't excluded.

I think the apeal will not change nothing. It doesn't matter if they gain something or not, the part is a not homologated one, so they're out.

[Barreis]

This has really been an eventful rally!

Weather creats uneven playing field
Loeb out, can not join in rally 2
2 x Ford out from the lead in ss 5&6
Hirvonen leads
2 x private fords fight for podium
Solberg catches up fast, then has a powersteering issue
2wd academy cars are stuck in the mud
Hirvonen wins
Østberg with another 2 nd
Novikov youngest podium finisher
Hirvonen excluded, clutch
Østberg gets first win
Novikov gets 2 nd
Solberg gets 3 rd
Championship wide open
Citroen apeals

Who knows what will happen next!?

Pls follow the next episode of the Portugal saga!!

You forgot 3 cancelled stages that helped Solberg also.

[rallyfiend]

You forgot 3 cancelled stages that helped Solberg also.

And you'll note that no-one is talking about how the longer format event created the stories.

Jean Todt and Michele Mouton don't need ridiculous marathon events, they just need a weather machine.

[Viking]

Australia 2009. There Citroen got only one minute penalty for using non-homologated part.

Yeah but that was Citroen and FIA is Fre... hey wait! :)

Petter got excluded last year, he were missing something like 3kg of muck in the wheel arches...

[bluuford]

GP Week : Issue 147, Page 1 (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=14)

8 pages for WRC in GPWeek.. that was a good event :-)

[Ville]

from memory, that part was homologated but the new drawings not present in the documents they produced in Australia.

Does it make a difference? In both cases the part was different in reality than in a document. Also in both cases team did not benefit from this.

Then Sweden 2012. Proton used lighter suspension arms than homologated. They got 2 minutes penalty and a severe reprimand.

[Viking]

Well you could benefit from having a stronger cluch in this event, ask Petter..

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Re Mikko - I reckon this is the FIA trying to make it a competitive championship by helping the Fords after they made a total hash of capitalising on Loeb's demise.

Tiny differences in the clutch & turbo do not deserve disqualification.

[Rallyper]

Re Mikko - I reckon this is the FIA trying to make it a competitive championship by helping the Fords after they made a total hash of capitalising on Loeb's demise.

Tiny differences in the clutch & turbo do not deserve disqualification.

Why need a homologation then? Of course it deserves some kind of penalize.

[uranium]

Why need a homologation then? Of course it deserves some kind of penalize.

Manufacture, not driver

[N.O.T]

Re Mikko - I reckon this is the FIA trying to make it a competitive championship by helping the Fords after they made a total hash of capitalising on Loeb's demise.

Tiny differences in the clutch & turbo do not deserve disqualification.

if he said such a thing i think it is not professional...

Rules are there to be obeyed... It was in Citroens hands to be 100% legal and not to give the FIA any reason to doubt them...

[Francis44]

Manufacture, not driver

The driver won in an illegal car, it has to be disqualified.

I understand FIA has been a bit easy in some similar problems in the past but disqualification is the only way to go.

[Iskald]

Usually I'm very rational person, but...

What if that was just a Citroens game in favour of mr Loeb. They can't afford their The One (and huge trademark) being beaten by Mikko, immediately after the finn got a compettitive car.

Conspiracy theory no. 1

[Iskald]

Re Mikko - I reckon this is the FIA trying to make it a competitive championship by helping the Fords after they made a total hash of capitalising on Loeb's demise.

Tiny differences in the clutch & turbo do not deserve disqualification.

Conspiracy theory no. 2

Anyone better?

[Sulland]

Novikov is now put up as the winner on WRC.com !
Probably a mistake, but still. and still no winner in Monte on the overview.

[grugsticles]

No matter how great the fault of the rule breach is, the rules are final. If the car doesn't comply 100% with them, then its illegal. Plain and simple.
I feel for Mikko, but thats the way it is.

Certainly adds to what has been an epic story for the whole event. The media and promoters would be loving it!

[6789]

Novikov is now put up as the winner on WRC.com !
Probably a mistake, but still. and still no winner in Monte on the overview.
wrc.com is abit of a fail lol - I can never get videos to work on there

[RS]

Disappointing end to a disappointing rally. Ok, you have to be at the finish (legally) to score the points but Mads won't want to have taken a win in this way and in fact I didn't like it that the podium finishers were all setting times 1m30 off the pace either. Would have been nicer to see Mads push a bit harder and go for the win on the stages.

[Wasted Talent]

Feel really sorry for Mikko, he drove to an excellent win and now loses it through no fault of his own.

As for Citroen and their appeal, then it seems clear - an incorrect unhomologated clutch part is an illegal part, end of. Regarding the turbo I have two thoughts, that there were no special reasons why Portugal 2012 should affect a turbo more than any other event, and so if it was normal for blades to distort they this would have happened on other events but no other post-event scrutineering has shown any problems, and secondly if there are limits your engineeers should work to a margin that ensures that you always stop the right side of the measurement.

This shows again what a stupid situation we have got into with homologation - there are numerous previous examples of cars being exluded or penalised where there is no performance gain - Brynhildsen Fabia brakes RAC a couple of years ago, Petters slight weight issue last season, Patrick Flodins "old" wheels in the PWRC a couple of years ago, and Fords glass.......it is all too complicated and expensive to guarantee compliance.

Congratulations to Mads

WT

[Hartusvuori]

Novikov is now put up as the winner on WRC.com !
Probably a mistake, but still. and still no winner in Monte on the overview.

Print screen!

[A FONDO]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pptu_ZWK-uQ

http://www.almrally.ru/foto/fotolist/?idgroup=27955

[GigiGalliNo1]

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/mjkoolio/ScreenShot2012-04-02at95402PM.png

[Mirek]

Re Mikko - I reckon this is the FIA trying to make it a competitive championship by helping the Fords after they made a total hash of capitalising on Loeb's demise.

Tiny differences in the clutch & turbo do not deserve disqualification.

The reason why for non-homologated part every competitor shall be disqualified is to stop discussion about the impact of the use of such part. If there is discussion allowed You get into the never ending spiral of opinions and explanations and into the battle of lawyers. The problem of last years was that FIA often changed the penalty to some lighter ones (like time penalty) for good of big factory teams but in the same time they kept same non-compromise stance against privateers.

I agree that sometimes the tolerances or details specified in homologation are ridiculous (like few grams on a suspension arm of Protons) but since they are existing everyone must understand they are mandatory and they are mandatory for every competitors not only privateers.

[bunnings]

pptu_ZWK-uQ

[dimviii]

in my opinion Citroen must be disqualified.
About the clutch mechanism....
yes it is heavier,but the supplier doesn t product a wrc car spare part by ''accident'' heavier.
Also a heavier clutch cover is more durable.More durable/heavier makes less happy the engine to rev,there is not so good gas response,but is stronger in terms of reliability.
About the turbocharger compressor wheel,we dont know the exact dimension from the wheel they measure.
That the turbo is supplied by Garett to all wrc cars is ridiculus excuse.Ok they are supplied by Garett,but no one will stop you to modify.
The gain is very tiny,as the turbo is with orifice.
The blades cant be longer after some km,while they have measured inside tolerances.
The gap between blades and housing is minimal,if they were geting longer,then they will touch the housing and then kaboom.There are street cars with 2,5 bar boost,that after some 30-50.000 km the blades are not longer.
A wrc team has to be very carefull about the homologated parts.We are talking about a 300 people team,they can measure(and they have to) every bolt or nut in a wrc car.Not a turbocharger,or a clutch cover...
Sorry Miko but thats rallying.Hope to gain another one in Argentina.

[mousti]

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/mjkoolio/ScreenShot2012-04-02at95402PM.png
Epic Fail!

[EuroTroll]

Conspiracy theory no. 2

Anyone better?

All good conspiracy theories have freemasons in them. ;)

So... Mads's father is a freemason, and so is Loeb. And Jean Todt. So they got together and decided that the best thing for the lodge is that Mikko is excluded. Mikko is not a freemason, he's a knight templar. :p :

[alleskids]

WRC.com article - World Rally Championship - News - Citroen heads comment on Hirvonen exclusion (http://www.wrc.com/news/citroen-heads-comment-on-hirvonen-exclusion/?fid=16463)

Seems they are appealing on the basis that they didn't gain an advantage and that the penalties were out of proportion because of that

every team that gets an DQ or penalty says the illegal/mis manufacturerd parts did not gain them any advantage. Illegal parts never ever gained advantage in the autosport. :P

[Barreis]

Epic Fail!

Must be someone from North One Sport guys.

[tfp]

wrc.com is abit of a fail lol - I can never get videos to work on there

I think you were generous when you say "a bit of a fail", that site really is rubbish!

[EuroTroll]

I think you were generous when you say "a bit of a fail", that site really is rubbish!

They're not all bad. They have splits. ;)

[janvanvurpa]

All good conspiracy theories have freemasons in them. ;)

So... Mads's father is a freemason, and so is Loeb. And Jean Todt. So they got together and decided that the best thing for the lodge is that Mikko is excluded. Mikko is not a freemason, he's a knight templar. :p :


I heard Latval is one of those tricky Knights of the Cross and Petter is one of those nasty Rosicrucians.....

It sure explains a lot of the inexplicable.

Better than saying "sheeeet just happens''.....

Conspiracies. Treachery, dead bodies.... (what!!!??)

All swirling under the smooth calm exterior.. Always thought Loeb seem a little toooooooooooooooo relaxed.

[Motorsportfun]

Must be someone from North One Sport guys.

AFAIK, the website is run by the FIA for now...

[tfp]

They're not all bad. They have splits. ;)

true...And many, many adverts!!

[tfp]

Bravo Mikk.. euhh non Mads.. euhh non Evgeny lolllllll... Bravo WRC.COM en tout cas lol


From planet marcus...I dont know what "en tout cas" means but I understand enough of the rest of the text to know that this is a dig at WRC.com - Ha!
Novikov - King of portugal :D

[sollitt]

Does it make a difference? In both cases the part was different in reality than in a document. Yes, it does make a difference. In one scenario the part was legal but the paperwork wasn't correct whilst in the other the part was not legal.

[Kielder]

Maybe my best picture this weekend: imgur: the simple image sharer (http://imgur.com/Xswgl). On Friday, I was remembering the 2001 edition of the rally during the whole day. Worst conditions since it moved to the South. It was also the worse of the five editions I've travelled to the rally there.

[Ville]

Yes, it does make a difference. In one scenario the part was legal but the paperwork wasn't correct whilst in the other the part was not legal.


Was the clutch actually illegal? Same way illegal like too light car or oversize intake restrictor? I understood that there was nothing illegal with the clutch, but it did not match with the one in papers. With different paperwork there would not have been any problem?

Of course it was a mistake, and Citroen deserves a sanction. But there are other options too than only disqualification.

[Carlo]

Of course it was a mistake, and Citroen deserves a sanction. But there are other options too than only disqualification.

Please show me where these options are listed in the FIA Schedule of Penalties

[Ville]

Please show me where these options are listed in the FIA Schedule of Penalties

I have no idea. But somehow in the history they have used time penalties with these unhomologated parts.

[bluuford]

Does it make a difference? In both cases the part was different in reality than in a document. Also in both cases team did not benefit from this.

Then Sweden 2012. Proton used lighter suspension arms than homologated. They got 2 minutes penalty and a severe reprimand.

I think it is quite OK when new manufacturer enters to the WRC and during the first year, nearly on the first rally, they have minor problems and they get time peanlties and severe reprimand. When next mistake appears then its should end withy the exclusion. Citroen and Ford have been there for ages and their mistakes should not be allowed anymore. Moreover, Citroen has little bit similar mistake already.
So, I am still in the position that every car that is using non-homologated parts or parts which are not like homologation states should be excluded. Only exception can be some minor problems and when the manufacturer first time enters to the sport.

[uranium]

Just curious, all cars goes through so deep check procedure?
And return to what I said earlier. Agree, to check more than 50 cars is impossible. But at least there are no more than 10 cars, who can be called as pretenders for victory. Why not check all of them before the event? At least 4 cars are the most important?
What is algorithm to choose the car to check after the event?

[uranium]

As for me it looks there was insider information.
Interesting, if e.g. Solberg or JML won the event, and Mikko was 2nd, his car also would be so deeply checked?

[Mirek]

Just curious, all cars goes through so deep check procedure?

Of course not. That is impossible. I think top three overall, winner of supporter championship and possibly some else which can be chosen by stewards.


And return to what I said earlier. Agree, to check more than 50 cars is impossible. But at least there are no more than 10 cars, who can be called as pretenders for victory. Why not check all of them before the event? At least 4 cars are the most important?

No :) First imagine You spent hours of testing tuning Your engine and than just before start of the event they disassemble it. I would be furious if someone did it to me and I had to build the engine again just few hours before start! That's nothing less than a sabotage. How would You justify to do so and especially only to someone?

Moreover not many things which were in the car on start are in it at the end and even if You check ten cars You would need an extra day for that.

[uranium]

Mirek, you are right. Nothing to say :)

[6789]

Really nice video from RallyMedia - WRC Rally de Portugal 2012 (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVpum9hv8S4&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2a62482FAAAAAAAAAAA)

Some big cutting at 0:15 by Ford factory car, looks like Petter I think - WRC Rally de Portugal 2012 (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KVpum9hv8S4#t=15s)

[Antony Warmbold]

The clutch was heavier than normal. Which means it could be more durable/reliable, so better... It's the right thing they excluded Hirvonen, fair is fair. FIA can't tolerate any cheating...

Agree. You don't change something unless there's a reason for it. Reliability may be the issue here. This is a BIG mistake from engineering department and highly unusual for Citroën. Knowing the French really well I wouldn't be surprised if heads fall for this.

The turbo issue is what tickles my pickle though.
According to Citroën's chief engineer they knew about this and had already discussed this problem with FIA. My question is:

If Citroën have been competing in WRC since 10 years with turbocharged cars and their turbos have supposedly been checked dozens and dozens of times by scrutineers over the years, why is it that suddenly, at Rallye de Portugal 2012, a scrutineer measures the impeller and finds it to be over sized beyond the tolerance ?? Has it now become so difficult for them to win that they need to push the limits even more? Has there been some restructuring in the team following the new boss's arrival and mistakes start happening?
I am waiting for the lab to confirm if that impeller is over sized or not.

[Rallyper]

Having this issue with turbo since many years, may have tempted them to push the limit (e.g. impeller dia) some hundreds of a millimeter, under the umbrella of the known problems... hoping to be innocent when discovered...

[JoostSchouten]

Really nice video from RallyMedia - WRC Rally de Portugal 2012 (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVpum9hv8S4&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2a62482FAAAAAAAAAAA)

Some big cutting at 0:15 by Ford factory car, looks like Petter I think - WRC Rally de Portugal 2012 (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KVpum9hv8S4#t=15s)
It was Solberg indeed. Latvala is the last shot, also quite big cutting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVpum9hv8S4

[MartijnS]

My photos are online too!
Difficult rally als normal spectators, but we were able to get out of some spectator zones fortunately!

http://www.rallymedia.nl/images/2012/rallydeportugal/Al-Attiyah%202.jpg

http://www.rallymedia.nl/images/2012/rallydeportugal/Sandell%203.jpg

http://www.rallymedia.nl/images/2012/rallydeportugal/Solberg%204.jpg

http://www.rallymedia.nl/images/2012/rallydeportugal/Ogier%201.jpg

http://www.rallymedia.nl/images/2012/rallydeportugal/Neuville%202.jpg

More at --> CLICK (http://www.rallymedia.nl/images/2012/rallydeportugal/rallydeportugal.html) or at our Facebook page (http://facebook.com/rallymedia) !

[Mirek]

The turbo issue is what tickles my pickle though.
According to Citroën's chief engineer they knew about this and had already discussed this problem with FIA. My question is:

If Citroën have been competing in WRC since 10 years with turbocharged cars and their turbos have supposedly been checked dozens and dozens of times by scrutineers over the years, why is it that suddenly, at Rallye de Portugal 2012, a scrutineer measures the impeller and finds it to be over sized beyond the tolerance ?? Has it now become so difficult for them to win that they need to push the limits even more? Has there been some restructuring in the team following the new boss's arrival and mistakes start happening?
I am waiting for the lab to confirm if that impeller is over sized or not.

I don't know what to think about that. I admit I'm no expert in this area so I just "think loud". In all previous cars they had turbos designed specially for their cars but now the turbo is same for all WRC cars (if I'm not mistaken). I can hardly believe they changed turbine of a controlled turbocharger which was supplied complete by Garret. How and why would they prolong fins by something like 0,1 mm? I think that they would need to produce new turbine to achieve that. But than there is higher risk of failure if the turbine fins get so close to the housing that they can clash with it. So they changed also housing? Maybe yes but than there is a controlled waste-gate (I believe it's how they keep maximum allowed pressure) so they can't achieve higher pressure anyway. Larger turbine have more inertia so it has slower reactions. From my uneducated point of view I can't see a reason to cheat by making turbine 0,1 mm larger. I tend to believe it really can be caused by high-temperature creep and therefore be more a defect of the turbocharger than a cheat.

[Antony Warmbold]

I don't know what to think about that. I admit I'm no expert in this area so I just "think loud". In all previous cars they had turbos designed specially for their cars but now the turbo is same for all WRC cars (if I'm not mistaken). I can hardly believe they changed turbine of a controlled turbocharger which was supplied complete by Garret. How and why would they prolong fins by something like 0,1 mm? I think that they would need to produce new turbine to achieve that. But than there is higher risk of failure if the turbine fins get so close to the housing that they can clash with it. So they changed also housing? Maybe yes but than there is a controlled waste-gate (I believe it's how they keep maximum allowed pressure) so they can't achieve higher pressure anyway. Larger turbine have more inertia so it has slower reactions. From my uneducated point of view I can't see a reason to cheat by making turbine 0,1 mm larger. I tend to believe it really can be caused by high-temperature creep and therefore be more a defect of the turbocharger than a cheat.

I share your point of view now. It is more likely what you say rather than "pushing the limits". We are not in the Toyota days anymore.

[MikeD]

I share your point of view now. It is more likely what you say rather than "pushing the limits". We are not in the Toyota days anymore.

@Mirek & Warmbold,

Thanks you for info. That was very educational. It will be interesting to see what Citroën will say at the FIA hearing.

[bretddog]

I can't see a reason to cheat by making turbine 0,1 mm larger.

I don't think there's released anything indicating the actual dimension. The stewards decision only says that it's greater than the testing ring of 54.11mm, and that Pinon stated that it was measured new at 54.02, which is well inside the tolerance by 0.08mm.

[Mirek]

I don't think there's released anything indicating the actual dimension. The stewards decision only says that it's greater than the testing ring of 54.11mm, and that Pinon stated that it was measured new at 54.02, which is well inside the tolerance by 0.08mm.

Let's wait and see. To me it doesn't make any sense that it could be some kind of cheat. What would larger turbine bring to them? There is limited maximum pressure by controlled waste-gate so there would be no gain in turbo pressure (unless it wasn't somehow modified as well but nothing like that was reported). In my understanding larger turbine reaches it's maximum pressure in higher engine rpm than the smaller one (needs more exhaust pressure for it's own rotation). Due to higher inertia it is also slower in reactions. Maybe I'm wrong but I really can't see any benefit from making the turbine larger no matter if by 0,1 mm or 0,5 or so...

[A FONDO]

WRC Vodafone Rally de Portugal 2012 [HD] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UcDZ8uy6ik)

take a look at the suggestions at the right too, for me it shows total of 8 full HD reviews :)

[Sulland]

Novikov is now put up as the winner on WRC.com !
Probably a mistake, but still. and still no winner in Monte on the overview.

Should think they read here, the webmaster for wrc.com, since now they have is right! If not the appeal goes through.

[TyPat107]

Let's wait and see. To me it doesn't make any sense that it could be some kind of cheat. What would larger turbine bring to them? There is limited maximum pressure by controlled waste-gate so there would be no gain in turbo pressure (unless it wasn't somehow modified as well but nothing like that was reported). In my understanding larger turbine reaches it's maximum pressure in higher engine rpm than the smaller one (needs more exhaust pressure for it's own rotation). Due to higher inertia it is also slower in reactions. Maybe I'm wrong but I really can't see any benefit from making the turbine larger no matter if by 0,1 mm or 0,5 or so...

Correct me if am am wrong, but a larger turbo will flow more air and thus make more power than a smaller turbo at the same pressure. Response could be slower but a more agressive tune for anti-lag would compensate for that. But none of this should matter with a restrictor as the cars should all reach choke flow with the same amount of air.

In my mind if this is happening to the ds3, it's also happening to the fiesta and the mini due to the turbo being the same. Wouldn't they have caught on any of the other cars before?

[rbatista82]

Some more photos:
- Photo Gallery: SuperMotores | Rally, Fórmula 1, WRC (http://www.supermotores.net/sm/fotos.asp?id=281)
- Photo Gallery: SuperMotores | Rally, Fórmula 1, WRC (http://www.supermotores.net/sm/fotos.asp?id=282)

http://www.supermotores.net/images/galeria/rallypt2012_rb00029.jpg
http://www.supermotores.net/images/galeria/rallypt2012_rb200006.jpg
http://www.supermotores.net/images/galeria/rallypt2012_rb00003.jpg

[Mirek]

Correct me if am am wrong, but a larger turbo will flow more air and thus make more power than a smaller turbo at the same pressure. Response could be slower but a more agressive tune for anti-lag would compensate for that. But none of this should matter with a restrictor as the cars should all reach choke flow with the same amount of air.

In my mind if this is happening to the ds3, it's also happening to the fiesta and the mini due to the turbo being the same. Wouldn't they have caught on any of the other cars before?

I'm really no expert but I think that as You mentioned due to the restrictor it can't bring more air with same pressure.

[Hartusvuori]

Citroën decides not to pursue appeal - Citroën WRC (http://www.citroen-wrc.com/en/2012/news/wrc-news/2700/citroen-decides-not-to-pursue-appeal/)


3 April 2012 | Vodafone Rallye de Portugal (http://www.citroen-wrc.com/en/epreuve/rallye-portugal-2012/)
http://www.citroen-wrc.com/en/epreuve/rallye-portugal-2012/
Following the exclusion of the no.2 Citroën DS3 WRC from the Rally de Portugal, Citroën Racing had initially stated its intention to appeal against the decision of the Stewards. Further analysis of the matter did not uncover any new technical elements. After consulting with various experts, Citroën Racing has therefore decided against pursuing the appeal with the FIA’s International Court of Appeal (ICA).




After having been notified of the decision to exclude the no.2 DS3 WRC from the Rally de Portugal, the Citroën Total World Rally Team had, within the one-hour deadline stipulated by the regulations, stated its intention to appeal against the decision at the FIA’s International Court of Appeal. The team then had a further 48 hours to either confirm its intention to appeal or decide against doing so.


As further analysis of the matter and discussions with experts did not uncover any new technical elements that might have been used to alter the harsh penalty handed out by the Stewards, Citroën decided not to pursue what would have been a long and costly procedure.


Yves Matton, Citroën Racing Team Principal: “We had stated our intention to appeal in order to give us time to analyse the matter in more detail. As regards the clutch, our supplier has sent us a letter of apology acknowledging the existence of a batch of parts which were different from those on the homologation documentation. This letter confirms that it was never our intention to cheat. At the same time, this situation forces us to look again at our procedures, since these parts were not picked up during our own checks. On the second point identified by the scrutineers, the sole supplier of turbocompressors approved by the FIA for all manufacturers, has confirmed to us the plastic expansion of the wheel turbine. Additional analysis will undoubtedly confirm that this was due to wear on the part. We accept this harsh penalty but are determined to learn the lessons and ensure that we will be even better in future. We still lead both World Championships, but the gaps have been reduced. We now go into the upcoming rallies more determined than ever to get back to winning ways.”


Mikko Hirvonen: “Obviously, I am very disappointed but I am not annoyed. These things happen. You have to accept them when they do, learn the necessary lessons and go again. Citroën has done a lot for me in the last few months so I stand united with the team at this difficult time. We win together, and we lose together! This incident just makes me even more determined. I can’t wait to start the next rally and go racing again.”

[N.O.T]

as expected...

[Viking]

Congrats to Mads Østberg! :)

[jonas_mcrae]

So now that the appeal is of the table, Mads will be the first privateer to win since...?

[pettersolberg29]

Cunico, 1993 San Remo

Unless you count Loeb and Kronos but I wouldn't.

[Barreis]

Kronos was also private effort.

[rallyfiend]

Kronos was also private effort.

Pffft. Kronos was as much a privateer effort as M-Sport is for Ford now or Prodrive was for Subaru.

[Barreis]

At that moment xsara was an old car, 'cos c4 was already designed.

[Viking]

Kronos was also private effort.

Yeah, some blue paint and new team overalls make all the difference...

[dimviii]

The clutch was heavier than normal. Which means it could be more durable/reliable, so better... It's the right thing they excluded Hirvonen, fair is fair. FIA can't tolerate any cheating...

but....the clutch they found at Mikkos ds3 was the old design and not the new design which used as a jocker.
Why to use an old part,while they just spent a jocker?This seems that even at top teams they can be mistakes.Of course mistakes=disqualification and thats right.

[dimviii]

If Citroën have been competing in WRC since 10 years with turbocharged cars and their turbos have supposedly been checked dozens and dozens of times by scrutineers over the years, why is it that suddenly, at Rallye de Portugal 2012, a scrutineer measures the impeller and finds it to be over sized beyond the tolerance ??

very good question....


Has it now become so difficult for them to win that they need to push the limits even more? Has there been some restructuring in the team following the new boss's arrival and mistakes start happening?
I am waiting for the lab to confirm if that impeller is over sized or not.

Dont think that anybody new boss,will play his career while they are clearly ahead.The lab must be indepented,and not Garetts,if we want to know something true.
Of course thats difficult when ''beside'' is PSA.
About the power,they gained with that 0,1mm i am afraid is not measurable,even not exist.

[dimviii]

But than there is higher risk of failure if the turbine fins get so close to the housing that they can clash with it. So they changed also housing?

In this case you haven t to change the housing but to machine it.


Maybe yes but than there is a controlled waste-gate (I believe it's how they keep maximum allowed pressure) so they can't achieve higher pressure anyway. Larger turbine have more inertia so it has slower reactions. From my uneducated point of view I can't see a reason to cheat by making turbine 0,1 mm larger. I tend to believe it really can be caused by high-temperature creep and therefore be more a defect of the turbocharger than a cheat.

For sure there is no gain from 0,1mm.Just remember that in grN from 32mm to 33mm they gained 20-30bhp.To cheat with 0,1mm(2-3 bhp) in a wrc car that after every rally is going to measure plenty of parts because is 99.9% at first 3 cars is plain stupid.

[dimviii]

In all previous cars they had turbos designed specially for their cars but now the turbo is same for all WRC cars (if I'm not mistaken)

previous wrc cars all used garett tr30r turbocharger,except subaru which used ihi rx-6.Tr 30r is a universal racing turbo.

[dimviii]

Correct me if am am wrong, but a larger turbo will flow more air and thus make more power than a smaller turbo at the same pressure.
larger turbo needs more air.Here we have an orifice.

[dimviii]

Really nice video from RallyMedia - WRC Rally de Portugal 2012 (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVpum9hv8S4&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2a62482FAAAAAAAAAAA)

Some big cutting at 0:15 by Ford factory car, looks like Petter I think - WRC Rally de Portugal 2012 (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KVpum9hv8S4#t=15s)

There is no video from Portugal with no moments from Petter and Jari from deep cuts,to out of the road .There is a reason for so much flat tyres.

[Munkvy]

Hi, just to clarify this (as I am a scrutineer at rallies in New Zealand), at the end of an event, scrutineers hold onto a small number of cars in parc ferme and do more detailed checks to confirm the cars conform with the homologation papers. This doesn't mean they ask for the engine to be disassembled necessarily, instead they choose a number of parts on the car and they are disassembled as necessary and checked. This could be anything from suspension, window glass, engine parts to measuring vehicle track and suspension pickup points. This is done typically to cars that win the event or their class, but also some cars are chosen at random so that there is a fair sample across the field. This is done at the end of every FIA sanctioned rally.


Just curious, all cars goes through so deep check procedure?
And return to what I said earlier. Agree, to check more than 50 cars is impossible. But at least there are no more than 10 cars, who can be called as pretenders for victory. Why not check all of them before the event? At least 4 cars are the most important?
What is algorithm to choose the car to check after the event?

[Wasted Talent]

The fact that Citroen probably gained no performance advantage isn't relevant - the parts did not conform to the homolgated requirements, it's as simple as that, sorry.

WT

[N.O.T]

there is no point in an appeal... it would only matter if citroen had doubt about the validity of the measurement...from the moment they accepted the fact that these parts were out of limits there is nothing they can do...they are out and rightly so.

The fact that the parts didn't gave any advantage is irrelevant when it comes to the actual decision of the stewards...it only comforts citroen that the fans will not accuse them of cheating on purpose.

[dimviii]

The fact that Citroen probably gained no performance advantage isn't relevant - the parts did not conform to the homolgated requirements, it's as simple as that, sorry.

WT

we said the same,didn t get it?

[bretddog]

The fact that the parts didn't gave any advantage is irrelevant when it comes to the actual decision of the stewards...it only comforts citroen that the fans will not accuse them of cheating on purpose.

That's far from a fact, and even quite far from likely imo. Though we will never know, so it will remain unsolved.

[MikeD]

there is no point in an appeal... it would only matter if citroen had doubt about the validity of the measurement...from the moment they accepted the fact that these parts were out of limits there is nothing they can do...they are out and rightly so.

The fact that the parts didn't gave any advantage is irrelevant when it comes to the actual decision of the stewards...it only comforts citroen that the fans will not accuse them of cheating on purpose.

Post deleted as I can see Citroën are not going to appeal after all. The results stand as it is.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98587

[N.O.T]

That's far from a fact, and even quite far from likely imo. Though we will never know, so it will remain unsolved.

we will see in a few weeks in Argentina...

I do not think the Citroen team as cheaters...

[bluuford]

It looked more like it was an aftereffect of Mr Quensel leaving and new teammanager steping in.

Anyway, am I correct when I say that it was the first time that they didnt scored any manufacturer points from event since Citroen joined WRC in 2003 as a manufacuter? They have scored at least one point in each event since they joined?

[Mirek]

The fact that Citroen probably gained no performance advantage isn't relevant - the parts did not conform to the homolgated requirements, it's as simple as that, sorry.

WT

I think that this is clear to all of us and agreed in previous discussion. We talk about particular aspects of the story because they are at least interesting.

[Mirek]

For sure there is no gain from 0,1mm.Just remember that in grN from 32mm to 33mm they gained 20-30bhp.To cheat with 0,1mm(2-3 bhp) in a wrc car that after every rally is going to measure plenty of parts because is 99.9% at first 3 cars is plain stupid.

But that was a change of restrictor. Here we speak about a change of turbine wheel diameter (over fins) WITHOUT a change of restrictor ;)

[Viking]

we will see in a few weeks in Argentina...

I do not think the Citroen team as cheaters...

Argentina won't be so muddy, they don't need the "strong clutch" there ;)

[dimviii]

But that was a change of restrictor. Here we speak about a change of turbine wheel diameter (over fins) WITHOUT a change of restrictor ;)

You are right.

[N.O.T]

Argentina won't be so muddy, they don't need the "strong clutch" there ;)

the weather was a gamble... nobody expected such conditions.

[dimviii]

Argentina won't be so muddy, they don't need the "strong clutch" there ;)

when is muddy you need a strong clutch? lol

[Viking]

when is muddy you need a strong clutch? lol

If it is muddy, and you get semi-stuck, you need it, Petter said he would have got the car back on the road but clutch broke...

lol as much as you want :D

All I am trying to say is that it could be an advantage that a certain part is stronger and even slightly heavier..

[dimviii]

If it is muddy, and you get semi-stuck, you need it, Petter said he would have got the car back on the road but clutch broke...

lol as much as you want :D

All I am trying to say is that it could be an advantage that a certain part is stronger and even slightly heavier..

Petter would had burnt the clutch also without mud.When you try to get out from the forest,you slip the clutch,and the friction materials are burnt.Nothing to do with a lighter clutch cover.So your conspiracy failed.Get it why i loled?

[Viking]

Petter would had burnt the clutch also without mud.When you try to get out from the forest,you slip the clutch,and the friction materials are burnt.Nothing to do with a lighter clutch cover.So your conspiracy failed.Get it why i loled?

I have burned a few, know the consept... but we don't know anything more of the clutch than it was not homologated and slightly heavier..

But in the end it prob is just me having a bit of fun when "the big money team" makes a slip up ;)

[bretddog]

But that was a change of restrictor. Here we speak about a change of turbine wheel diameter (over fins) WITHOUT a change of restrictor ;)

Even though you have a wastegate and restrictor doesn't render the rest of the design a coin toss. There's a lot going on below peak pressure ratio and flow, and at any point you want to speed up the turbo as fast as possible. A larger turbine will generate more momentum to the compressor for a given exhaust flow, of course up to an optimal point.

[tfp]

It looked more like it was an aftereffect of Mr Quensel leaving and new teammanager steping in.

Anyway, am I correct when I say that it was the first time that they didnt scored any manufacturer points from event since Citroen joined WRC in 2003 as a manufacuter? They have scored at least one point in each event since they joined?

I remember in 2009 Loeb and Sordo both crashed out, I cant remember if they scored any points under superally or rally2 or whatever they want to call it today!

[bretddog]

you slip the clutch,and the friction materials are burnt.Nothing to do with a lighter clutch cover.So your conspiracy failed.Get it why i loled?

A clutch cover does have a function of dissipating heat. And the material / weight will vary this effect. If it would get Petter out of the ditch is probably a stretch though :)

[HarriK]

In a Team like Citroen (and also Ford) all parts go through a very strickly inspection and all parts are marked before assembly. I can't just believe that they didn't know that clutch piece is different than it supposed to be.

[OldF]

Still about the turbo issue.

I don’t understand what is the benefit of having a bigger turbine wheel if the size of the compressor wheel remains the same. The airflow and thus also the gas flow doesn’t increase.

[dimviii]

some nice photos
http://img.over-blog.com/630x470-000000/0/16/10/23//Rallye-du-Portugal-2012/rally-portugal-2012--100-.JPG
http://img.over-blog.com/630x470-000000/0/16/10/23//Rallye-du-Portugal-2012/rally-portugal-2012--99-.JPG
http://img.over-blog.com/630x470-000000/0/16/10/23//Rallye-du-Portugal-2012/rally-portugal-2012--30-.JPG

Rallye du Portugal 2012 (http://www.rnp-rally.com/1-album-2047030.html)

[Gregor-y]

Still about the turbo issue.

I don’t understand what is the benefit of having a bigger turbine wheel if the size of the compressor wheel remains the same. The airflow and thus also the gas flow doesn’t increase.
Would there be any benefit to changing the mass of the assembly?

[tolis]

Some more photos: Rally Portugal 2012 (http://www.r40.gr/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=120342)

[OldF]

Would there be any benefit to changing the mass of the assembly?

I doubt that no.

[bluuford]

I remember in 2009 Loeb and Sordo both crashed out, I cant remember if they scored any points under superally or rally2 or whatever they want to call it today!

Double checked it. It was the first time Citroen didnt collect any manufacturer points. Second worst result was 2005 Sweden when they got 1 point only (Duval was 12th and loeb broke his engine).

[dimviii]

Still about the turbo issue.

I don’t understand what is the benefit of having a bigger turbine wheel if the size of the compressor wheel remains the same. The airflow and thus also the gas flow doesn’t increase.

in this case you have better output at higher revs,but you loose at low range rpms

[dimviii]

Would there be any benefit to changing the mass of the assembly?

yes the lighter the better,but in our case was bigger=heavier

[katikisphotography]

Vodafone Rally de Portugal 2012 - katikisphotography | SmugMug (http://www.katikisphotography.com/Galleries/2012/Vodafone-Rally-de-Portugal/22275264_CPTPC2#!i=1779723215&k=jhFDcfg)

My photos from Portugal...
Enjoy!!!

[sollitt]

...There's a lot going on below peak pressure ratio and flow, and at any point you want to speed up the turbo as fast as possible. A larger turbine will generate more momentum to the compressor for a given exhaust flow, of course up to an optimal point. I believe this to be correct. The larger turbine will allow greater and faster airflow and will also bring more inertia maintaining higher speed during throttle off ... less lag.
Similarly a heavier flywheel/clutch assembly can have the same effect. Some F2 2WD cars were homologated with heavier flywheels than the standard item for exactly this reason.
Whilst in each case the variance is very small, perhaps the cumulative effect of both illegalities is actually measurable?
In which case ... the C word might not be inappropriate?

[Rom1]

Hi all,

Some of my pics are HERE (http://www.ewrc.cz/ewrc/fotogalery.php?events=3490&fotograf=220), on the eyesofrally facebook page and soon on the website.

Enjoy

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2012/wrc/portugalsko/_DSD6622.jpg

[janvanvurpa]

Still about the turbo issue.

I don’t understand what is the benefit of having a bigger turbine wheel if the size of the compressor wheel remains the same. The airflow and thus also the gas flow doesn’t increase.


The measured difference was under 0,09mm diameter. 0,09mm on diameter is about the thickness of one sheet of paper....
0,09mm on diameter is 0.045 on radius, or around HALF the thickness of a sheet of paper.

Whatever the theoretical difference, in reality that won't mean SFA difference, and personally having watched people who do not handle every single day of their lives micrometers and precision measuring tools, I don't believe that the technical geezers could repeatably measure things that accurately.

All you guys, before you make more of the dreaded pub talk, pick up a piece of good paper and look at it on edge...then imagine half that..
Then talk about "more....blah blah"

[janvanvurpa]

Hi all,

Some of my pics are HERE (http://www.ewrc.cz/ewrc/fotogalery.php?events=3490&fotograf=220), on the eyesofrally facebook page and soon on the website.

Enjoy

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2012/wrc/portugalsko/_DSD6622.jpg



As an image, that is beautiful....knowing exactly what it is makes it even more fascinating.. Cartier-Bresson would be happy!

[Xsara Fan]

Denis Giraudet column: From Portugal with love... (http://www.almrally.ru/english/info/7700/)

Evgeny Novikov`s hi-res photogallery WRC PORTUGAL - almrally's Photos (http://almrally.smugmug.com/WRC/WRC-2012/WRC-PORTUGAL/22157296_J6ZKSD#!i=1773997871&k=Ng6vH45)

Maybe I should go to Portugal for WRC?http://www.50centloseweight.com

[EightGear]

Maybe I should go to Portugal for WRC?http://www.50centloseweight.com

Yeah it starts in about a year so you will have some time to see something of the country before the rally starts.

[millbrook]

My pics are online now @ rallysport foto's (http://www.rally-pix.tk)

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1056/sizedf20.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/sizedf20.jpg/)

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8466/sizeda.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/sizeda.jpg/)

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1628/sizeda19.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/sizeda19.jpg/)

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6376/sizedc12.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/sizedc12.jpg/)

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/6128/sizedd5.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/sizedd5.jpg/)

[garais22]

Visiting ''Neiksans Rally Sport'' and interview (http://www.go4speed.lv/lv/news/autosports-pasaule/863-ka-a-neiksans-bez-gaismam-un-benzina-iekaroja-portugales-ralliju-foto/)with Andis Neiksans about Portugal rally
Pictures here (http://www.go4speed.lv/lv/photo/rallijs/383-ciemos-pie-neiksans-rally-sport/):

[TyPat107]

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wrc/2012/Documents/STW-DEC-9-Rally-Portugal.pdf

Mikko's turbo was out of spec.

The fia references a letter from garret saying the turbines are all measured after manufacturing, does that mean Citroen had another turbine wheel made?

[dimviii]

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wrc/2012/Documents/STW-DEC-9-Rally-Portugal.pdf

Mikko's turbo was out of spec.

The fia references a letter from garret saying the turbines are all measured after manufacturing, does that mean Citroen had another turbine wheel made?

yes but Citroen didn t say that turbines were out of measure as new,but after stress/hot.Except that they dont mention the exact mm of turbine wheel.
Nothing new...

[JAM]

yes but Citroen didn t say that turbines were out of measure as new,but after stress/hot.Except that they dont mention the exact mm of turbine wheel.
Nothing new...

All turbines came from the same place, right? It's strange that all are ok, and the ones from Citroen don't.

Nasser Al-attiyah and Thierry Neuville were lucky.

[TyPat107]

All turbines came from the same place, right? It's strange that all are ok, and the ones from Citroen don't.

Nasser Al-attiyah and Thierry Neuville were lucky.

Its a mandated turbo correct? So why hasn't ford or mini had the same issue?

[dimviii]

All turbines came from the same place, right? It's strange that all are ok, and the ones from Citroen don't.

Nasser Al-attiyah and Thierry Neuville were lucky.
the turbine wheel we are talking was measured not after manufacture but after 3 days of rallying.Citroen says that after extreme stress/temp may they have change the dimension of wheel.We don t know the exact measure.To say out of limits is one word.But if we dont know how much out of dimension it was,we can t know if they were cheating or was a bad measure from Citroen,or the stress/temp cause the wheel to be out of nomimal tolerances,or a Garrett bad manufacture.
Anyway they have punished and that was fair imho.

How do you know that all citroen turbos are illegal? did they measure more than Mikkos turbo?

[dimviii]

Its a mandated turbo correct? So why hasn't ford or mini had the same issue?
different turbo rpms,less temp,different antilag etc.
Another point is that this wasn t the first time a ds3 turbo was measured.Normally all 3 first cars at all rallies are inspected,and i can t believe that in a world championship thay don t measure turbochargers.

[JAM]

How do you know that all citroen turbos are illegal? did they measure more than Mikkos turbo?

That's why i said that they were lucky. Because if the scrutinners would had asked the other two DS3, probably th result would be the same.

[dimviii]

That's why i said that they were lucky. Because if the scrutinners would had asked the other two DS3, probably th result would be the same.
do you know that that was the ONLY time they had measure a ds3 turbocharger?How do you know that?

[TyPat107]

different turbo rpms,less temp,different antilag etc.
Another point is that this wasn t the first time a ds3 turbo was measured.Normally all 3 first cars at all rallies are inspected,and i can t believe that in a world championship thay don t measure turbochargers.

That might make sense. I know anti-lag is far more heat/stress on a turbo than flat out driving. And mikko just cruised through the rally so possibly so ( no real great way to say this really) his car may have been a situation where anti-lag came into play more than if he had been pushing causing more wear etc on the turbo.

[JAM]

do you know that that was the ONLY time they had measure a ds3 turbocharger?How do you know that?

I wrote probably

[dimviii]

That might make sense. I know anti-lag is far more heat/stress on a turbo than flat out driving. And mikko just cruised through the rally so possibly so ( no real great way to say this really) his car may have been a situation where anti-lag came into play more than if he had been pushing causing more wear etc on the turbo.

No thats not right.Wherever you push or cruise inside a stage, antilag is on.The stress on turbo isn t different if you push or cruise.The turbo pressure is same,so heat/stress same.

[dimviii]

I wrote probably

probably and being lucky doesnt come togather.

[TyPat107]

No thats not right.Wherever you push or cruise inside a stage, antilag is on.The stress on turbo isn t different if you push or cruise.The turbo pressure is same,so heat/stress same.
Sorry for my ignorance on how wrc cars create anti-lag, but I know at our clubman level it is done by retarding ignition timing greatly when the throttle is lifted this allows unburnt fuel out of the combustion chamber and into the hot exhaust manifold. This creates a big egt spike that spools the turbo, which does cause far more wear than say if I were to never lift.

[dimviii]

Sorry for my ignorance on how wrc cars create anti-lag, but I know at our clubman level it is done by retarding ignition timing greatly when the throttle is lifted this allows unburnt fuel out of the combustion chamber and into the hot exhaust manifold. This creates a big egt spike that spools the turbo, which does cause far more wear than say if I were to never lift.

completely right.

[Rallyper]

Sorry for my ignorance on how wrc cars create anti-lag, but I know at our clubman level it is done by retarding ignition timing greatly when the throttle is lifted this allows unburnt fuel out of the combustion chamber and into the hot exhaust manifold. This creates a big egt spike that spools the turbo, which does cause far more wear than say if I were to never lift.

But you can´t build and count on your driver should act in a special way so turbo will be counted for passing an examination. As a manufacturer you must build for any situation. I think your theories are not countable.

[TyPat107]

But you can´t build and count on your driver should act in a special way so turbo will be counted for passing an examination. As a manufacturer you must build for any situation. I think your theories are not countable.

No you can't build, but you can change the engine mapping for it as Anthony warmbold stated in his thread/ on his blog.