Prodrive Mini WRC

[AndyRAC]

Hardly a surprise, is it? They're busy with the DTM testing...... ;)

[jonkka]

Ah, Don't Tell Mama...

[Plan9]

They don't even have the little green pig on there. What an injustice!!! =p

[amilk]

The program of Sordo for the European WRC rounds already fixed? They will start on all of them or still questionmarks and round by round budget hunting?

[A.F.F.]

Ah, Don't Tell Mama...

Bring memories?

[Plan9]

The program of Sordo for the European WRC rounds already fixed? They will start on all of them or still questionmarks and round by round budget hunting?

Some unconfirmed rumors that a long haul event may be possible but very unlikely at this stage.

[Plan9]

This is frustrating news; a whole rally ruined for under a pound. A bit like the story of the 52 car in Sardinia last year (a cheap part ruins a sucessful debut of a new Prodrive car). Details below:

MaxRally | News | Prodrive counts the cost in pennies (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/prodrive_counts_the_cost_in_pennies/)

[Steve Boyd]

This is frustrating news; a whole rally ruined for under a pound. A bit like the story of the 52 car in Sardinia last year (a cheap part ruins a sucessful debut of a new Prodrive car). Details below:

MaxRally | News | Prodrive counts the cost in pennies (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/prodrive_counts_the_cost_in_pennies/)
I'm not sure that's a fair analysis. It may be that the part that failed only cost £0-30 but the reason for the failure was not in the part itself but due to an unforseen design problem putting undue stress on that part.

[ToughMac]

Considering there are something like a hundred upgrades on this car and seems to be very different from the previous car I can't say theres much of a surprise that something failed. For what should have been an evoultion of the original Mini WRC there was little rigorous testing done to shake it down.

[scorpaguy]

I was at Portugal...and saw Sordo exit his car after the event.

Dani was wicked fast...appeared to be driving pissed after having the gremlin hit his car. The Mini is competitive....money must be found to continue this ride. Sordo was just unbelievable in the stages I saw...JML was also fast (and yes both had little to lose later in the event).

However, the disgust on Dani's face as he exited his car was telling. He should have won won this event. Sandell on the other hand destoyed his car.

Sordo and Mini need money....their pits are a joke compared to Ford and Citroen.

Another wierd thing....I had a Ford VIP pass....Ford and Citroen seem to be marketing their camps towards gearheads....Mini seem to be aiming towards 13 year-old girls? I felt uncomfortable in the Mini area.

[Plan9]

Maybe more explanation of the last 2 point you made? Why are the pits a "joke" and uncomfortable?

[leighton323]

Maybe more explanation of the last 2 point you made? Why are the pits a "joke" and uncomfortable?

Plan9 I love how you get offended by anything said against Mini in any way. Seems like if you could you'd marry Kris Meeke and the Prodrive Mini. They need more fans like you however I'm not sure about Kris Meeke as a driver though.

[Plan9]

Nah I'm not offended by his comments. I laughed at his remarks too. But I have followed Prodrive since forever. I didn't know he was on the market? =p (just jokes of course). You may well be right about him however I don't think chances like he had come around twice.

[bubbaontour]

Sordo and Mini need money....their pits are a joke compared to Ford and Citroen.

Another wierd thing....I had a Ford VIP pass....Ford and Citroen seem to be marketing their camps towards gearheads....Mini seem to be aiming towards 13 year-old girls? I felt uncomfortable in the Mini area.

Why are we a 'joke'? ok we only have the money to put the cars on the event and there not a lot of big tentage going on and champagine bars but its well presented and functonal.

And as for us aiming towards 13 year old girls... wtf? what bit of the mini area were you in?

[Nornbugger]

Why are we a 'joke'? ok we only have the money to put the cars on the event and there not a lot of big tentage going on and champagine bars but its well presented and functonal.

And as for us aiming towards 13 year old girls... wtf? what bit of the mini area were you in?


MSport get stick for having too flash a hospitality area, you'll never keep everyone happy!

[bubbaontour]

MSport get stick for having too flash a hospitality area, you'll never keep everyone happy!

Hilarious isnt it!

[A.F.F.]

I have never understood huge motorhomes in rallying ??

For the past years at NORF, every second year Citroen and MSport brought a bigger and bigger motorhome. And the VIP-area is obvioulsy filled with people who couldn't care less about following rally out there at the stages :mark:

[rallyfiend]

They're the people who pay the bills!

The concept of sponsorship and corporate hospitality is not a terribly difficult one.

[Rallyper]

I have never understood huge motorhomes in rallying ??

For the past years at NORF, every second year Citroen and MSport brought a bigger and bigger motorhome. And the VIP-area is obvioulsy filled with people who couldn't care less about following rally out there at the stages :mark:

However this could be the sign that big money is on the way to WRC. Same people as in F1 might like to join the serviceareas of WRC and then spens some sponsormoney on teams...?

[A.F.F.]

However this could be the sign that big money is on the way to WRC. Same people as in F1 might like to join the serviceareas of WRC and then spens some sponsormoney on teams...?

Dunno about that. Citroen had a huge RedBull motorhome. The contrast to smaller teams is sad. Some had a tent smaller the one in our terrace. Yet the spirit might have been larger ;)

[scorpaguy]

All....please note i in no way intended to offend anyone. Also, I am a "yank"and rally is not my expertise.

...but as for my comment, it was in no way anti-Mini. Mini is big here in the states...and Citroen absent. My comments were also a bit vague so I will clarify.

1. Mini was not even in the main row of pits within the compound,but ouside thereof and occupying only a fraction of the footprint of Ford/Citroen...yes I know they have fewer cars. The scope of size was very evident ( and maybe justified)....but the overall professionalism (neatness, arrangment, age, number, etc. of tools and equipment was also noticably lower. Some of the privateers had more professional/neat pit areas.

2. As a Mini (and Sordo) fan, I went to Mini's merchandise tent to get a "mechanic's shirt". The 3 young attendants could only point me to some skirts, sissy shirts, and worthless trinkets.....3 times the price of Ford/Citroen items.

3. My pass allowed me to visit with JML and PS....both exited thier cars and greeted both fans and mechanics. Very Cheerful (and JML had little to be happy about). Sordo exited his car...seemingly upset...to a larger crowd of fans than either of the Ford Guys. He barely acknowledged his fans and almost none of his mechanics.


Sordo seemed to be the fan favorite in the event....and drove his guts out. Sordo, Sandall, and TP were always greeted with a huge roar of "Mini!" or "Sordo!".

I'm not sure how all this PD/BMW crap will play out...all I am saying is it will be a crying shame if Mini leaves the sport. The sound of the car is really cool and Sordo can win in it. I am a fan...just hoping for more I guess.

[Sulland]

Will the Swede get a 01B version of mini this season, or is he stuck with the one he got?

[bubbaontour]

All....please note i in no way intended to offend anyone. Also, I am a "yank"and rally is not my expertise.

...but as for my comment, it was in no way anti-Mini. Mini is big here in the states...and Citroen absent. My comments were also a bit vague so I will clarify.

1. Mini was not even in the main row of pits within the compound,but ouside thereof and occupying only a fraction of the footprint of Ford/Citroen...yes I know they have fewer cars. The scope of size was very evident ( and maybe justified)....but the overall professionalism (neatness, arrangment, age, number, etc. of tools and equipment was also noticably lower. Some of the privateers had more professional/neat pit areas.

2. As a Mini (and Sordo) fan, I went to Mini's merchandise tent to get a "mechanic's shirt". The 3 young attendants could only point me to some skirts, sissy shirts, and worthless trinkets.....3 times the price of Ford/Citroen items.

3. My pass allowed me to visit with JML and PS....both exited thier cars and greeted both fans and mechanics. Very Cheerful (and JML had little to be happy about). Sordo exited his car...seemingly upset...to a larger crowd of fans than either of the Ford Guys. He barely acknowledged his fans and almost none of his mechanics.


Sordo seemed to be the fan favorite in the event....and drove his guts out. Sordo, Sandall, and TP were always greeted with a huge roar of "Mini!" or "Sordo!".

I'm not sure how all this PD/BMW crap will play out...all I am saying is it will be a crying shame if Mini leaves the sport. The sound of the car is really cool and Sordo can win in it. I am a fan...just hoping for more I guess.

Ok well i am one of Sordos mechanics. front left actually.

1. Yes we are not in the main arena.... we are not a manufacture any more, thats what all the turmoil at christmas/2 months ago was about. Thats not for me to comment on though as i would probably be out of a job. And its not the 'Pits' Its a service area. We tidy the few 'old scrap' tools away between services. the intention was to make the place look neater but obviously that didn't work. Yes a lot of our tools are throwbacks to the Subaru days, what do you want fast rally cars or shiny tools? What we have is getting the job done for a fraction of the other teams budgets. we spend the money where it really counts, the car!!!

2. T Shirts. nothing to do with us, pm me if you want to buy one though.... (that is a joke btw. again i would get sacked)

3. I will pass your comments on to Danny but he hasn't got to be in a good mood all the time and we dont take it personally. to be honest we are to busy to even notice him getting out of the car most the time.

I wish i knew how it was all going to pan out too! But for now we are just hanging in there doing our very best with so little resource so give us a break would you!

[Barreis]

Any news about Sordo's program?

[dimviii]

Ok well i am one of Sordos mechanics. front left actually.

1. Yes we are not in the main arena.... we are not a manufacture any more, thats what all the turmoil at christmas/2 months ago was about. Thats not for me to comment on though as i would probably be out of a job. And its not the 'Pits' Its a service area. We tidy the few 'old scrap' tools away between services. the intention was to make the place look neater but obviously that didn't work. Yes a lot of our tools are throwbacks to the Subaru days, what do you want fast rally cars or shiny tools? What we have is getting the job done for a fraction of the other teams budgets. we spend the money where it really counts, the car!!!

2. T Shirts. nothing to do with us, pm me if you want to buy one though.... (that is a joke btw. again i would get sacked)

3. I will pass your comments on to Danny but he hasn't got to be in a good mood all the time and we dont take it personally. to be honest we are to busy to even notice him getting out of the car most the time.

I wish i knew how it was all going to pan out too! But for now we are just hanging in there doing our very best with so little resource so give us a break would you!

what about the new suspension at gravel?

[bubbaontour]

Come on guys, I'm never going to go into team details on a public forum, I like my job, well most of the time.. (that too is a joke. It's a great job) It's just a bit frustrating sometimes reading unfair critisizim when we are punching way above our weight and running on fumes so to speak.

[Jake Stephens]

Come on guys, I'm never going to go into team details on a public forum, I like my job, well most of the time.. (that too is a joke. It's a great job) It's just a bit frustrating sometimes reading unfair critisizim when we are punching way above our weight and running on fumes so to speak.

I think it's cool that one of his mechanics is here talking about the situation. When all of the issues between BMW & Prodrive really came to light recently, I found it very easy to criticize Prodrive over what was going on.

Having said that, I think that when you compare Prodrive's success in World Rally over the years to, let's say BMW's success in F1, it's easy to see why MINI is in the situation it has found itself. It's unfortunate that BMW weren't/aren't willing to put the required input in place in order to give Prodrive the best chance to succeed.

[wildsir]

Any news about Sordo's program?

Don't you see, the program is dead. My bet, is you will see Sordo in a Ford next year.

[scorpaguy]

Once again Bubba...I am on your side...the whole of my comments were inteneded only to point out the disparity in funding. It is only PD's committment and and DS's talent that is getting results.

DS and the car are proven winners. If I were in his position, I too would be a bit upset. Not only was his rally knackered by a freak failure....but he is a consistent stage winner "running on fumes" as you say.

I truly hope Sordo/PD/Mini get the money needed and they all remain together....cool car and cool driver.

Please private message me for my shirt....I wont tell.

[Plan9]

Ok well i am one of Sordos mechanics. front left actually.

1. Yes we are not in the main arena.... we are not a manufacture any more, thats what all the turmoil at christmas/2 months ago was about. Thats not for me to comment on though as i would probably be out of a job. And its not the 'Pits' Its a service area. We tidy the few 'old scrap' tools away between services. the intention was to make the place look neater but obviously that didn't work. Yes a lot of our tools are throwbacks to the Subaru days, what do you want fast rally cars or shiny tools? What we have is getting the job done for a fraction of the other teams budgets. we spend the money where it really counts, the car!!!

2. T Shirts. nothing to do with us, pm me if you want to buy one though.... (that is a joke btw. again i would get sacked)

3. I will pass your comments on to Danny but he hasn't got to be in a good mood all the time and we dont take it personally. to be honest we are to busy to even notice him getting out of the car most the time.

I wish i knew how it was all going to pan out too! But for now we are just hanging in there doing our very best with so little resource so give us a break would you!

I am quite a fan of Prodrive Mini (it has been noted on here in the past lol) and I have a few questions (obviously for you discretion might be the best part of valor for some of them)

1) How is Kris atm? Is he going to drive at all this year, do 2013 with the team or just leave?

2) Have you guys been getting good responses everywhere you go or was Portugal a notable highlight?

3) Will you be going to NZ?

[grugsticles]

T Shirts. nothing to do with us, pm me if you want to buy one though.... (that is a joke btw. again i would get sacked)


Don't take this the wrong way but I am a bit awestruck to find a team mechanic on a forum. I would have assumed that and communication to the public would be strictly forbidden, but then again you do seem rather cautious with your words.

Secondly, re: T-shirts. Would you really get in trouble for selling team merchandise of behalf of the team even if its not for personal gain? It not like you would be selling stuff that of limited release or anything.

[Plan9]

FYI there is a prodrive/mini mechanic on twitter......

[GigiGalliNo1]

I don't care whether a team has a fancy pants service hotel/dinner area for people who indeed just go to get free stuff and never out at the stages. Rally Australia was set up with the two Ford and Citroen areas opposite each other. All the way down the end were the Brits working with the Brazillian MINI Team... they had two display cars of the Countryman and a fixed up tent. No one (fans) were really there but I went in and spoke to the crew and they were really nice!!! Fair enough Citroen and Ford have the money to show off all their stuff, it's not about that. It's about watching the Mechanics working on the car in the time given. If Dani Sordo or Ken Block or Seb L or JML got out of their car which I saw on occasions and don't give the fans a wave - Boo Hoo, go cry your tears somewhere else. They've just got out of their office so to speak and are eager to get their cars fixed. People or real fans can wait to see them at service. They have their duties and later the PR make them come out to see everyone. That's what they're paid to do. I stood next to and spoke with many drivers and didn't phase who they were. I deal with many high profile people and they're just like you and I with a great profession! If you really want to buy team shirts etc, go at the end of the rally when their stock is low and prices are cheaper! Check eBay as well!




Secondly, re: T-shirts. Would you really get in trouble for selling team merchandise of behalf of the team even if its not for personal gain? It not like you would be selling stuff that of limited release or anything.

Only official merchandise can be sold... unless a team member has left they might return the clothes. I've bought official as in official WRC TV crew and FIA stuff on the eBay before... they left the companies :)

[amilk]

Someone knows that Acropolis for Sordo/2nd driver already confirmed?

[grugsticles]

Only official merchandise can be sold... unless a team member has left they might return the clothes. I've bought official as in official WRC TV crew and FIA stuff on the eBay before... they left the companies :)

Oh, I thought you were talking about official merchandise and not actual team clothing. My bad.


Plan9: Twitter.... meh. Rapebook is enough.

[Barreis]

Heard that Sordo will do Corsica.

[EightGear]

Yes, as already pointed out in the Tour de Corse topic. ;)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Oh, I thought you were talking about official merchandise and not actual team clothing. My bad.


Plan9: Twitter.... meh. Rapebook is enough.

Actually, if a member of a team leaves the team they can do what they please with the clothing (I'm 90% certain about this) but teams normally don't sell employee clothing etc. They have a memorabilia/official team merchandise for sale.... it's confusing I know but their clothing and stuff isn't sold to general public. I got official Mitsubishi Clothing from team members in the past that wasn't available or close to the Merchandise for sale :)

[AMSS]

We`ll at least during the Peugeot years all team clothing had to be returned after each event! Don`t know exactly how it is nowadays.


Actually, if a member of a team leaves the team they can do what they please with the clothing (I'm 90% certain about this) but teams normally don't sell employee clothing etc. They have a memorabilia/official team merchandise for sale.... it's confusing I know but their clothing and stuff isn't sold to general public. I got official Mitsubishi Clothing from team members in the past that wasn't available or close to the Merchandise for sale :)

[bubbaontour]

Plan9, Basically no comment sorry. even if i did know i wouldn't say. We have been fairly well received everywhere we have been. And the lad on twitter is Cal, he covers all the recce's with me actually but he is a young pup into his social media :)

grugsticles, Believe or not most of us are normal people with just as big a interest in rallying as the average fan :) Im sure you would be surprised how meny professionals 'lurk' on here... we have been reading this thread since the very start. re reading it is like a documentary of the last two years of my life! and yes my words are guarded. theres no way i would ever discuss anything of any 'value' on here. it was just the comments regaiding our set up/image got my goat a bit and i wanted a explanation.

And team clothing is to be returned and drestroyed, I have never sold it and i never will. its not worth the risk. Im sure people will know instances of it happening, and it does, but not from me.

[Plan9]

@Bubbaontour: Thanks for the reply. I hope you have paid attention to the fact that not everyone on here is cynical about you guys. I always thought what you guys did was awesome. BTW it has not been hard to guess who the pros are on here. This is a great bridge between fan and pro. I'm sorry Kris couldn't go to Tour de Corse; that would have suited him.

[tfp]

Plan9, Basically no comment sorry. even if i did know i wouldn't say. We have been fairly well received everywhere we have been. And the lad on twitter is Cal, he covers all the recce's with me actually but he is a young pup into his social media :)

grugsticles, Believe or not most of us are normal people with just as big a interest in rallying as the average fan :) Im sure you would be surprised how meny professionals 'lurk' on here... we have been reading this thread since the very start. re reading it is like a documentary of the last two years of my life! and yes my words are guarded. theres no way i would ever discuss anything of any 'value' on here. it was just the comments regaiding our set up/image got my goat a bit and i wanted a explanation.

And team clothing is to be returned and drestroyed, I have never sold it and i never will. its not worth the risk. Im sure people will know instances of it happening, and it does, but not from me.

I often wonder who reads these message boards, people behind the scenes etc... Nice to have your input here, and hope everything is now sorted after that fire!

[bubbaontour]

To gigigallinum1

I was one of the guys in oz, I went out with the bwrt lads to do the recce and then on the car for the rally so I probably met you. We were pissing everyone off all weekend kicking a rugby ball around (badly)

[A.F.F.]

Plan9, Basically no comment sorry. even if i did know i wouldn't say. We have been fairly well received everywhere we have been. And the lad on twitter is Cal, he covers all the recce's with me actually but he is a young pup into his social media :)

grugsticles, Believe or not most of us are normal people with just as big a interest in rallying as the average fan :) Im sure you would be surprised how meny professionals 'lurk' on here... we have been reading this thread since the very start. re reading it is like a documentary of the last two years of my life! and yes my words are guarded. theres no way i would ever discuss anything of any 'value' on here. it was just the comments regaiding our set up/image got my goat a bit and i wanted a explanation.

And team clothing is to be returned and drestroyed, I have never sold it and i never will. its not worth the risk. Im sure people will know instances of it happening, and it does, but not from me.

I have to say I'm pissed off the whole situation. Prodrive+Mini+drivers is/was very promising alltogether. You guys received better results in a short period of time then many manufacturer teams in the past. That's why it feels so unfair. I didn't feel like this when Nissan or Suzuki or even Hyundai faded away because they never really showed any progress. You guys had podium results and who knows with better luck, on tarmac you would have gotten it. Plus, Mini is a frigging cool car and I love to see on stages. Fingers crossed for you guys for the future.

[grugsticles]

grugsticles, Believe or not most of us are normal people with just as big a interest in rallying as the average fan :) Im sure you would be surprised how meny professionals 'lurk' on here... we have been reading this thread since the very start. re reading it is like a documentary of the last two years of my life! and yes my words are guarded. theres no way i would ever discuss anything of any 'value' on here. it was just the comments regaiding our set up/image got my goat a bit and i wanted a explanation.

I guess If I though about it I would actually expected rallying professionals to venture online to get an insight to what the fans are thinking and discussing, but I assumed that actually advertising ones professional career would be a definite no for the unwanted attention it may bring. Good on you for bridging the gap that little bit between the professionals and the little people.

A.F.F - hitting the nail on the head with the mother-of-god of all hammers!

[Barreis]

I have to say I'm pissed off the whole situation. Prodrive+Mini+drivers is/was very promising alltogether. You guys received better results in a short period of time then many manufacturer teams in the past. That's why it feels so unfair. I didn't feel like this when Nissan or Suzuki or even Hyundai faded away because they never really showed any progress. You guys had podium results and who knows with better luck, on tarmac you would have gotten it. Plus, Mini is a frigging cool car and I love to see on stages. Fingers crossed for you guys for the future.

Podiums are due to the great driver.

[Messi]

Podiums are due to the great driver.

Since Sordo´s faster with the MINI than with the Citroen both on gravel and tarmac, doesn´t that mean that the MINI is faster than the citroen?

[A.F.F.]

Podiums are due to the great driver.

True but I believe good results boost the whole team!

[GigiGalliNo1]

To gigigallinum1

I was one of the guys in oz, I went out with the bwrt lads to do the recce and then on the car for the rally so I probably met you. We were pissing everyone off all weekend kicking a rugby ball around (badly)

Man, I was watching you guys and you had so much fun! I would have loved to have joined in but a bit shy in that case, specially guys who fix and deal with cars where I would just drool and ask stupid questions!! =) haha

[Plan9]

In the "replacement for JML" thread there was a photo posted of Dani with Meguiars car care products. Has he picked them up as a sponsor? I have been following his homepage and it seems like every few days he picks up a new endorsement. I hope he makes good use of these :)

[Hartusvuori]

Prodrive's press release tells Sordo will compete with Prodrive Mini in New Zealand, Germany and Great Britain. Second driver under talks. There's also a sentence "Team will compete in further events in the season", whatever that might bring. They will run the latest specification MINI which will be made available to all factory-supported Minis as well.

[6789]

Prodrive's press release tells Sordo will compete with Prodrive Mini in New Zealand, Germany and Great Britain. Second driver under talks. There's also a sentence "Team will compete in further events in the season", whatever that might bring. They will run the latest specification MINI which will be made available to all factory-supported Minis as well.

Will be good to see Sordo in the Mini in NZ!

[GigiGalliNo1]

Sweet! Now I might play some rugby and be a real man! Haha

[MikeD]

There is one thing i don't understant with todays press-release from Prodrive. They say that they will skip Argentina and Greece, but at the same time on WRC.com it says they will run a car for Chilien driver Salazar in Argentina. I don't expect them to do all the travel and costs for Argentina for a driver like him (no offence). Anybody knows more? Is Salazar without a car or can he drive one from Motorsport italia?

[JAM]

I don't expect them to do all the travel and costs for Argentina for a driver like him (no offence).

If he pays the price thta Prodrive wants, why not?


Is Salazar without a car or can he drive one from Motorsport italia?

If MI wins a "rent race" against Prodrive, then next time MI Minis would be slower than a PWRC car :D

[Plan9]

Prodrive's press release tells Sordo will compete with Prodrive Mini in New Zealand, Germany and Great Britain. Second driver under talks. There's also a sentence "Team will compete in further events in the season", whatever that might bring. They will run the latest specification MINI which will be made available to all factory-supported Minis as well.

That means Nobre gets 1. I guess they will do either spain, france or italy...

[rallye-vid]

Well, looks like Prodrive is able to create a competitive rally car (with the right driver)..

If it's true, Hyundai is going to make some WRC car, maybe they should work with prodrive (but without David Richards pls ...) ...

[Barreis]

There's another David - Whitehead. Even worse. :D

[driveace]

careful there David Whitehead is a Menston lad.I do have to admit MSD never gat the Accent sorted though

[Barreis]

Whitehead said in an interview that gearbox and diffs for accent cost 250 000gbp. :D

[rallyfiend]

Whitehead said in an interview that gearbox and diffs for accent cost 250 000gbp. :D

'Cost' versus 'What we'll tell Hyundai they cost' are two very different things!

[AndyRAC]

careful there David Whitehead is a Menston lad.I do have to admit MSD never gat the Accent sorted though

I always thought the problem with the Accent WRC was lack of finance, not MSD problem, and so, ahem a Hyundai problem.

[Barreis]

Official tuners are bloody expensive.

[Plan9]

I always thought the problem with the Accent WRC was lack of finance, not MSD problem, and so, ahem a Hyundai problem.

At some events the crews had to sleep in tents. That's good dedication but for a WRC works entry its a bit sad. I never understood why they stuck with the accent for so long?

[adr17]

At some events the crews had to sleep in tents. That's good dedication but for a WRC works entry its a bit sad. I never understood why they stuck with the accent for so long?

what a load of crap , i was there and that never happened , the problem with hyundai / msd relationship was the money that hyundai paid to msd paid the debts off from running the honda touring car programme and didnt spend enough on the wrc programme and they only had 2nd class drivers , it was a good car same transmission as focus and 206 which was originally designed by msd and the rights brought my m-sport when msd were short of funds , but the engine had no top end power due to a poor cylinder head design .

loix still says that it was the a great chassis to drive

most experienced rally team members who have worked for most teams will tell you msd had great staff and was a great place to work

[N.O.T]

I never understood why they stuck with the accent for so long?

they were in the wrc for 3 years...how many different models did you expect them to use in 3 years ?

LOL... amazing...once more.

[Plan9]

what a load of crap , i was there and that never happened , the problem with hyundai / msd relationship was the money that hyundai paid to msd paid the debts off from running the honda touring car programme and didnt spend enough on the wrc programme and they only had 2nd class drivers , it was a good car same transmission as focus and 206 which was originally designed by msd and the rights brought my m-sport when msd were short of funds , but the engine had no top end power due to a poor cylinder head design .

loix still says that it was the a great chassis to drive

most experienced rally team members who have worked for most teams will tell you msd had great staff and was a great place to work


Retraction: I misquoted what I read the other day: at one point the Korean Hyundai head quarters were even asking if their WRC stars could not sleep in tents!
From this website: Hyundai Manufacturer Profile & Rally History : Rallye-Info.com (http://skoda.rallye-info.com/carmake_profile.asp?sid=6&make=12)

[Plan9]

I was not thinking about models. At the time I thought the whole operation was in a precarious situation.

[N.O.T]

Retraction: I misquoted what I read the other day: at one point the Korean Hyundai head quarters were even asking if their WRC stars could not sleep in tents!
From this website: Hyundai Manufacturer Profile & Rally History : Rallye-Info.com (http://skoda.rallye-info.com/carmake_profile.asp?sid=6&make=12)

That website has the flag of north korea... next to hyundai

you seem to confuse a lot of things within your head...it is ok.

[JAM]

I always thought the problem with the Accent WRC was lack of finance, not MSD problem, and so, ahem a Hyundai problem.

Lack of finance because MSD spent too much or because Hyunday paid less than necessary.

In the past, a manufacturer paid their own involvements with a few sponsors to help, but never let a project fall. Nowadays manufacturers want someone to share the costs of the projects, and when a sponsor or partner fails they simple let the project fall down. Hyundai somes years ago, Mini nowadays.

[Nornbugger]

what a load of crap , i was there and that never happened , the problem with hyundai / msd relationship was the money that hyundai paid to msd paid the debts off from running the honda touring car programme and didnt spend enough on the wrc programme and they only had 2nd class drivers , it was a good car same transmission as focus and 206 which was originally designed by msd and the rights brought my m-sport when msd were short of funds , but the engine had no top end power due to a poor cylinder head design .

loix still says that it was the a great chassis to drive

most experienced rally team members who have worked for most teams will tell you msd had great staff and was a great place to work


really? Did you expect Makinen ,McRae and Burns to go to them? I think for a new team they had a very respectable line up

[Barreis]

I always thought they should sign Delacour instead of Schwarz and Loix.

[adr17]

really? Did you expect Makinen ,McRae and Burns to go to them? I think for a new team they had a very respectable line up

well in at end of 2002 carlos sainz approached the team offering to driver for one year and then go in to a team managment roll but hyundai and msd relationship had started to go sour by then , also loeb was in the workshop and in talks for a while in the early years

[RAS007]

I always thought they should sign Delacour instead of Schwarz and Loix.

^^^This.

[Plan9]

Juha K was not second class

[Doon]

well in at end of 2002 carlos sainz approached the team offering to driver for one year and then go in to a team managment roll but hyundai and msd relationship had started to go sour by then , also loeb was in the workshop and in talks for a while in the early years

Was this before Loeb came 2nd in Sanremo? No I don't think so! Don't think Seb would ever switch from Citroen especially not to a **** team like Hyundai! Come on why would you suggest that?

[Langdale Forest]

The Mini WRC team is almost a 100% sick dog team this year.
Even Suzuki were beter than this, they had good drivers that did all the rallies, and now the Mini drivers are village drivers with money.

[JAM]

The Mini WRC team is almost a 100% sick dog team this year.
Even Suzuki were beter than this, they had good drivers that did all the rallies, and now the Mini drivers are village drivers with money.

You should talk with your neighboor and ask why Prodrive sent to Motorsport Italia a crap of a Mini. That's the point.

[Barreis]

They don't have top drivers. :P

[Langdale Forest]

You should talk with your neighboor and ask why Prodrive sent to Motorsport Italia a crap of a Mini. That's the point.

Are you trying to hide the fact that some of the Mini drivers this year are sick dogs?
Nombre, Salazar, Oliviera, Gorransson, how can you say that the car is bad when they are driving it?

[JAM]

Are you trying to hide the fact that some of the Mini drivers this year are sick dogs?
Nombre, Salazar, Oliviera, Gorransson, how can you say that the car is bad when they are driving it?

No doubt about that. They are realy slow.

And Armindo? Do you think that he forgot how to drive? The guy is having a hell of a season, with a undrivable car.

If Prodrive want to sell Mini's, they sould first of all to put a decent car on the hands of the gauy that represents the label.

[dimviii]

And Armindo? Do you think that he forgot how to drive? The guy is having a hell of a season, with a undrivable car.

lol

[Langdale Forest]

And Armindo? Do you think that he forgot how to drive? The guy is having a hell of a season, with a undrivable car.





Just because Matthew Wilson is from my home country (England), dosen't mean that I try and hide the fact that he is useless.

People need to realise that not all countries have good rally drivers.

[Francis44]

No doubt about that. They are realy slow.

And Armindo? Do you think that he forgot how to drive? The guy is having a hell of a season, with a undrivable car.



You just lost some credibility there.

Armindo is SLOW.

[JAM]

Just because Matthew Wilson is from my home country (England), dosen't mean that I try and hide the fact that he is useless.

People need to realise that not all countries have good rally drivers.

Mathew is a slow driver, but believe me that with a Ford he is much faster than Armindo in a Mini.

Do you want an example? Daniel Oliveira with a MI Mini in 2011 was much slower than Armindo. This year with a Ford, Daniel Oliveira is as faster as Armindo. This explains everything. And no, Oliveira didn't learn to drive from 2011 to 2012.

[JAM]

You just lost some credibility there.

Armindo is SLOW.

I can't say more. Believe me, i would love, but i can't.

That's why i didn't wrote many times about Armindo here.

[N.O.T]

I can't say more. Believe me, i would love, but i can't.

That's why i didn't wrote many times about Armindo here.

maybe Loeb is not allowing him to be that fast... or maybe prodrive is sabotaging his car...

Armindo is a good driver for the second league like PWRC... but the big guns need big boys to work...

[JAM]

Armindo is a good driver for the second league like PWRC... but the big guns need big boys to work...

Are Martin Prokop and Patrik Sandell a bad drivers?

[EightGear]

Not good enough for a factory supported team, no. Armindo neither by far.

[JAM]

Not good enough for a factory supported team, no. Armindo neither by far.

You're right, but my point is that Armindo is not as slow as we see with this Mini. With this car he is dramaticaly slow.

I never saw Armindo as a top driver as Hirvonen or Solberg, and it isn't.

[N.O.T]

Are Martin Prokop and Patrik Sandell a bad drivers?

No, but C level ones like armindo....

[Franky]

What's the B level?

[N.O.T]

What's the B level?

Novikov ostberg

[Andre Oliveira]

If Armindo has the material and budget to flat out, the comparision was aceptable. Actually is very unfair.

[N.O.T]

If Armindo has the material and budget to flat out, the comparision was aceptable. Actually is very unfair.

it is a sport for the rich boys... if you want to become a rally driver at a high level you have to have money... not having money its not an excuse for success... it is like complaining that is unfair you lose tennis matches because you have no hands... while you should not have picked up the sport in the first place.

i guess Armindo knew about that unfairness long before the mini....

[Rallyper]

Novikov ostberg

It´s only a question of time when EN and MO is A-level... don´t you think, N.O.T.? (speaking of today´s competition level in WRC)

[N.O.T]

En mo ???

[Rallyper]

En mo ???

Novikov and Ostberg...

[Francis44]

it is a sport for the rich boys... if you want to become a rally driver at a high level you have to have money... not having money its not an excuse for success... it is like complaining that is unfair you lose tennis matches because you have no hands... while you should not have picked up the sport in the first place.

i guess Armindo knew about that unfairness long before the mini....


I am not so pessimistic about drivers chances. If you are good enough somebody will pick you up. Right Now the World economy isn't doing so well so there's little space for investment in young drivers.

If I remember correctly both Loeb, Ogier, Neuville and many other before those reached the highest level of rally without being millionaires, in fact I think Loeb was working on van delivery for a small company wasn't he?!

Ofcourse if you want to fight against the big boys without having a clue on what driving on the limit is then teams are happily willing to burn your millions of euros while you try.

I think problem nowadays is everyone thinks that when they can make a car go sideways and have pretty faces they will be able to battle it out on the big league.

[N.O.T]

Novikov and Ostberg...

of course everyone has the chance to improve...

[JAM]

it is a sport for the rich boys... if you want to become a rally driver at a high level you have to have money... not having money its not an excuse for success...

This year it's not a problem of money.

[N.O.T]

why he choose the mini then ?

[JAM]

why he choose the mini then ?

Because his main sponsor is Mini, otherwise he only had done 2 or 3 rallyes.

[Plan9]

Mayb we can judge Armindo's speed better if and when he gets the 01B? I think Patrik is going to get it soon.

[RS]

Is Sandell in the prostitute car for NZ?

[denkimi]

Novikov ostberg

you mean the ostberg who is currently 3th in the championship, although he has driven 1 rally less then all the other top-drivers and is competing with a non-factory car?

who knows where he could have been if ford had given him a factory-seat.

[Franky]

who knows where he could have been if ford had given him a factory-seat.

Doing Rally2 every event?

[jens]

Araujo may not be a stellar driver, but I would have expected him to be faster than he actually is at the moment. Come on, 15 minutes behind leaders now despite the leaders actually not pushing at all?!

What about the quality of team Motorsport Italia in preparing cars for the event?

[N.O.T]

you mean the ostberg who is currently 3th in the championship, although he has driven 1 rally less then all the other top-drivers and is competing with a non-factory car?

who knows where he could have been if ford had given him a factory-seat.

yes...that Ostberg... B level at best.

[tfp]

yes...that Ostberg... B level at best.

Speed-wise, maybe, but consistency is lacking in the "A" class drivers at the minute, even Loeb has one retirement already this year(I would say how many JML has had, but Ive lost count)

[Plan9]

Araujo may not be a stellar driver, but I would have expected him to be faster than he actually is at the moment. Come on, 15 minutes behind leaders now despite the leaders actually not pushing at all?!

What about the quality of team Motorsport Italia in preparing cars for the event?

Yes he has gone backwards since last year. MI is dependent on being supplied by Prodrive; its clear the car is not of the same quality and Dani's and the prostitute car.

[A.F.F.]

With all due respect towards Neuville but how has he reached the highest level of rallying? Because he is driving WRC?

[N.O.T]

Speed-wise, maybe, but consistency is lacking in the "A" class drivers at the minute, even Loeb has one retirement already this year(I would say how many JML has had, but Ive lost count)

consistency is far easier to achieve... and has no value when you are not competitive.

[N.O.T]

With all due respect towards Neuville but how has he reached the highest level of rallying? Because he is driving WRC?

As far as his career goes he is currently at the highest level..with only a works drive to be the next step.

His speed is ok given the background but for the moment WRC speed and competition is a bit too much for him... he can be a worthy opponent in the future if the backing is there.

[denkimi]

consistency is far easier to achieve... and has no value when you are not competitive.
1 win, 3 third places and 1 4th place. that seems pretty competitive to me, especially if you know that he is not driving a factory car.

i believe that with the same car, he would be as fast or even faster than solberg. not as fast as latvala of course, but far more consistent.

[JAM]

Mayb we can judge Armindo's speed better if and when he gets the 01B? I think Patrik is going to get it soon.

Probably not. The problems would be the same. They will give to him a crap of a 01B. I almost lost my hopes

[N.O.T]

Probably not. The problems would be the same. They will give to him a crap of a 01B. I almost lost my hopes

Has armindo and his sponsors some kind of mental disability ?? why he/they pays/y so much money for a crap car ??

it makes no sense...

[JAM]

What about the quality of team Motorsport Italia in preparing cars for the event?

They don't put a finger on the preparation. They only do the basic maintenance.

The cars came from Prodrive, the engineers too.

Of course that Prodrive would never voluntarly give a decent car to Motorsport Itália, by obvious reasons.

[JAM]

Has armindo and his sponsors some kind of mental disability ?? why he/they pays/y so much money for a crap car ??

it makes no sense...

You have to ask that to Mini / BMW.

[jcatanho]

Has armindo and his sponsors some kind of mental disability ?? why he/they pays/y so much money for a crap car ??

it makes no sense...

IMHO Armindo's car is not crap. Obviously Prodrive has the best cars but I think that Armindo, like you said, is a C level pilot. In tarmac he can be closest to some B level pilots (or at least be the fastest C level pilot) but in gravel he is not that fast specially with slippery conditions. Without rain I believe that he can be faster than he has been in Argentina. Let's see in Greece.

He is a nice guy and because he is portuguese I am always suporting him but I think that some people in Portugal are expecting to much from him. He is very consistent but this year he have been quite unlucky and he has done more mistakes than usual.

[JAM]

but in gravel he is not that fast specially with slippery conditions.

Clearly you are forgetting the best rallyes that Armindo has done during one decade. And you are forgeting that in Portugal and on PWRC his best exibitions were in slipery conditions.

And if that Mini is not crap, how can Daniel Oliveira in a Fiesta be faster than Armindo? How Daniel recovered the 2 to 3sec / km that we has losing to Armindo last year in a Mini? Sudenly Daniel learn how to drive fast?

Armindo could be a C level driver, but his perfomance in Mexico, Portugal and Argentina is from a D or E or F level driver.

[bubbaontour]

They don't put a finger on the preparation. They only do the basic maintenance.

The cars came from Prodrive, the engineers too.

Of course that Prodrive would never voluntarly give a decent car to Motorsport Itália, by obvious reasons.

Can you explain this please.....

[denkimi]

Can you explain this please.....
this.

I can't think of any reason why prodrive wouldn't give the best cars they have. after all, if MI quits, the whole mini wrc project is over.

[bubbaontour]

this.

I can't think of any reason why prodrive wouldn't give the best cars they have. after all, if MI quits, the whole mini wrc project is over.

I wasn't asking for someone elses take on what he ment.. as is known on here now i work at prodrive and i know exactly who does what!

Im asking JAM to explain his interpretation of how the relationship works seeing as he seems to have all the answers...

[rallyfiend]

this.

I can't think of any reason why prodrive wouldn't give the best cars they have. after all, if MI quits, the whole mini wrc project is over.

Well, there is the concept of 'you only get what you pay for'.

[cali]

Well, there is the concept of 'you only get what you pay for'.
your knowledge of this whole matter is based on .. ?

[RAS007]

What about the concept of "the prostitute car"?

[rallyfiend]

your knowledge of this whole matter is based on .. ?

Prodrive is a private company who are out to make money from the preparation and sale of rally cars.

What is so complex or requiring of knowledge?

No different to the different spec of car / engine / suspension etc you can get from M-Sport if the price is right.

[Plan9]

What about the concept of "the prostitute car"?

That concept comes from a twitter quote by Kris when he found out he was shafted. He said something like "ever wondered how it feels when the girl you loves tells you she is going to work as a prostitute". It was very controversial at the time.

Personally, I didn't think much of Campana but Sandell hasn't been doing a bad job. He is getting more out of the car than Armindo. Of course I am looking forward to seeing neither of them in future and Kris in the 52 car again but maybe this is not possible.

[cali]

so your knowledge of the whole matter is basically around 0

[Plan9]

I wasn't asking for someone elses take on what he ment.. as is known on here now i work at prodrive and i know exactly who does what!

Im asking JAM to explain his interpretation of how the relationship works seeing as he seems to have all the answers...


Well, as long as it doesn't cost you a job what are your thoughts on Motorsport Italia? How do you rate Armindo?

[Peugeot206WRC]

Clearly you are forgetting the best rallyes that Armindo has done during one decade. And you are forgeting that in Portugal and on PWRC his best exibitions were in slipery conditions.

And if that Mini is not crap, how can Daniel Oliveira in a Fiesta be faster than Armindo? How Daniel recovered the 2 to 3sec / km that we has losing to Armindo last year in a Mini? Sudenly Daniel learn how to drive fast?

Armindo could be a C level driver, but his perfomance in Mexico, Portugal and Argentina is from a D or E or F level driver.

Just saw this video, and Im no expert, it seems Daniel couldve improved a lot since last season.
WRC Onboards 2011: Argentina - Daniel Oliveira SS08 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX2vj9j--d0)
I mean.. 6 left is 4th gear.. trying 3rd, redline, ok go up to 4th again..
5 left he go with 4th gear, next time 3rd gear.
He is definitly not using the car to its limits. Havent seen any onboards with the Fiesta though.

[JAM]

Can you explain this please.....

Which part do you want to see explained?

[Co-driven]

Just saw this video, and Im no expert, it seems Daniel couldve improved a lot since last season.
WRC Onboards 2011: Argentina - Daniel Oliveira SS08 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX2vj9j--d0)
I mean.. 6 left is 4th gear.. trying 3rd, redline, ok go up to 4th again..
5 left he go with 4th gear, next time 3rd gear.
He is definitly not using the car to its limits. Havent seen any onboards with the Fiesta though.

Yeah, I don't know whether he improved that much from last season or not. The thing is that he's been faster on the last events, he only lacks a bit more consistency.

This weekend he's contesting Rally de Tucumán, third round of the Argentine National Championship, with a VW Gol Maxi Rally. On shakedown he set the fourth fastest time, just one tenth of a second behind Federico Villagra. Let's see his performance throughout the weekend and check whether he has improved that much.

[JAM]

It seems that bubbaontour already knows all the story and don't want my explanations :D

Nice, is a sign that he already understood the relationship and the lack of results

[Plan9]

Getting info about this topic is basically like getting blood out of a stone this year.

[bubbaontour]

It seems that bubbaontour already knows all the story and don't want my explanations :D

Nice, is a sign that he already understood the relationship and the lack of results

We have a great relationship, I personally did mexico with the guys on AA's car. There a great bunch of people and i found them nothing more than welcoming and professional.

All i wanted you to explain was how you come to the conclusion that the cars we give them aren't 'Decent' and what your idea of 'Basic maintenance' is?

[JAM]

We have a great relationship, I personally did mexico with the guys on AA's car. There a great bunch of people and i found them nothing more than welcoming and professional.

All i wanted you to explain was how you come to the conclusion that the cars we give them aren't 'Decent' and what your idea of 'Basic maintenance' is?

Basic maintenance is everything that don't deal with the preparation of the components. Engine, gearbox, and all this stuff came from Prodrive and they only mount it on the car. The setups of the car are managed by the engneer that came from Prodrive. So, Motorsport Italia aka WRC Team Mini Portugal can do only basic things on the car.

How do i explain my conclusion about the "decent" car? Obviously by the results. Not even with a brand new car in Portugal the perfomance improved. The best Armindo's perfomance with a Mini, was in Portugal 2011 when drove the car for the first time, since then things always went down and down, and this year dramatically down.

How do you explain that on the debut of Mini on the WRC in 2011, with a S2000 1.6T version, he was faster than in all rallyes with a WRC version mounted on the same chassis? The same happened with Patrik Flodin, a great perfomance with the Grifone's S2000 1.6T in Sardinia (better than Araujo with the WRC), and a crap of a perfomance in Germany with the WRC version like Armindo. Why these two privaters were not able to be fast with the WRC version like they were with the S2000 1.6t version?

If you want to study the situation, try to find a WRC rally in wich a private Mini was consistently faster then Armindo. There's none! Flodin was faster in Sardinia, but with a S2000 car.

Look at Pierre Campana. The guy was slow with a private Mini in Germany and his home rally in France, slowest than Armindo. But suddenly in Monte Carlo Campana made a reborn! Ohhh no, it was not a reborn, it was a change of car. In MC he was in a Prodrive Mini. Isn't his an evidence that somethiung is wrong with the private Mini's?

Is this kind of cars that Prodrive wants to sell to privaters? Of course that this don't give much confidence to every one who wants to buy a WRC car.

[JAM]

And another thing about this Prodrive saga. Prodrive shouldn't complain about Mini lack of support. Mini supported all the terms that were on the agreement, it was Prodrive that failled in finding sponsors to this year, and is Prodrive that failled in selling cars (one of their source of money to the project).

And i repeat, with the perfomance shown by private Mini's, its dificult to sell cars. Prodrive should look at this, as one of the reasons of why people don't buy Mini JCW WRC. The private Mini's are all slow, the slow drivers that drive these cars are being even slower. Daniel Oliveira proved that is much much faster in a private Fiesta than was in a private Mini.

He have a lot of examples that prove my point, so i don't understand why someone have doubts about what i say.

And there's a lot of things that could be said, but i think this is enough and these evidences are public.

[Cacatua]

Fellow JAM, I understand you're Portuguese and you probably think Araujo is 2 time better than an average supporter thinks he is actually, and maybe you're right. What I don't agree is throwing this pile of **** on everything to justify this. There's no need of this.

Because facts are facts, what Araujo has so far shown until now is:

- Impressive performance in a Mini S2000 in Rally Portual.
- Good efforts on PWRC.

In WRC:
- All stage times below the 10th position in pair.
- The best S2000 faster than him as a general rule.
- No improvements in a WRC.
- 1 to 2 seconds slower than Sordo (Top driver, but not sure if he is "a Loeb" yet) when he is running.
- Average performance at his home event. Nothing to highlight.

So fellow, really, give it up. When he has been World Champ, throw it on me but until then, accept the reality. We are all glad and happy having him in WRC, he deserves the opportunity more than others and he is a good driver, I mean it. But I've seen many of them who I thought they deserved to be here missing the opportunity but showing something more with much less than Araujo (Gigi Galli, Duval, Meeke, Dani Solà, etc.)

[janvanvurpa]

And another thing about this Prodrive saga. Prodrive shouldn't complain about Mini lack of support. Mini supported all the terms that were on the agreement, it was Prodrive that failled in finding sponsors to this year, and is Prodrive that failled in selling cars (one of their source of money to the project).

And i repeat, with the perfomance shown by private Mini's, its dificult to sell cars. Prodrive should look at this, as one of the reasons of why people don't buy Mini JCW WRC. The private Mini's are all slow, the slow drivers that drive these cars are being even slower. Daniel Oliveira proved that is much much faster in a private Fiesta than was in a private Mini.

He have a lot of examples that prove my point, so i don't understand why someone have doubts about what i say.

And there's a lot of things that could be said, but i think this is enough and these evidences are public.

Jam Jam Jam, you are suggesting that Prodrive has made serious mistakes. Now I kind of lean that way but think that means God's Own Chosen Son on Earth Dave Richard's company will have made errors and that is sacrilegious.

Nothing Dave Richards even stands near could ever be wrong, since he is a genius.....in his own mind.

[Mirek]

I saw myself Armindo in a Mini only twice - in Finland 2011 and in Monte Carlo 2012. In the first event he was in my eyes driving really very slow, fully comparable style with René Kuipers (not with much faster Dennis). I remember that because it was really disappointing for me. Half a year later in Monte Carlo it was sure better especially during last leg but still nothing really impressive comparing with for example Novikov and nowhere near Sordo.

[N.O.T]

multiply the things JAM says about armindo 5 times and you got the average Greek rally fan when it comes to supporting the greek tourists.

Armindo is nothing...he won the Pwrc cup of nothingness a few years back and that is that.

[wrchirek]

It is obvious, that Sordo and Araújo aren't on same level. But it is also a fact, that Prodrive's customer cars are slower than the current "factory" ones, leastways the Subarus was. Just another map to the ECU, and job is done.

[N.O.T]

But it is also a fact, that Prodrive's customer cars are slower than the current "factory" ones

how can you make such a claim wen the difference in driving level is HUGE...

Of course they are downgraded and it is expected but not to the point that a capable driver will not be able to be competitive... teams are not stupid to give technical knowledge freely to competition...

[amilk]

Seeing the Mini pictures from Corsica the tendency still there - the BP livery dominate more and more on the car.
Ford sponsored by Castrol. Castrol is part of BP......
For sure there are plans for 2013 for Mini otherwise they (BMW?) don't spend money for testing, new homologisations etc this year.....maybe with BP. Don't know how long the contract between Castrol and Ford......
I'M just speculating as watching the nice Corsica livery of Sordo.

[wrchirek]

how can you make such a claim wen the difference in driving level is HUGE...

Of course they are downgraded and it is expected but not to the point that a capable driver will not be able to be competitive... teams are not stupid to give technical knowledge freely to competition...

You said the same as me: there is difference between both drivers and cars. And how much? Maybe nobody knows.

[sollitt]

Of course they are downgraded and it is expected .......... teams are not stupid to give technical knowledge freely to competition...And that, right there, is exactly the problem with the WRC today!

[N.O.T]

And that, right there, is exactly the problem with the WRC today!

it was always like that when a manufacturer was involved... in the 70s 80s 90s ects ects....

[JAM]

Half a year later in Monte Carlo it was sure better especially during last leg but still nothing really impressive comparing with for example Novikov and nowhere near Sordo.

Did you know the the car used in MC was not the italian car, but one from Prodrive? The Motorsport Italia's car was damaged at a fire in Prodrive, and they send one of their own cars.
Armindo made MC for the first time with only 60/70km testing some days before (the first test of the year starting from a zero setu-up). He only tested 60/70km because the car from Prodrive came late...

Prodrive didn't cut enough on this car by mistake :D

I have to say again (is the third or fourth time that i write this) that Armindo is not a top driver, is useless compare him with Sordo. Don't waste your time remembering me it.

[JAM]

how can you make such a claim wen the difference in driving level is HUGE...


Campana is the same man, but with a different car in MC.

If you love to be blind and ignorant, is your choice, but if it's the case, than stop doing noise.

[N.O.T]

Campana in MC... hmmmm what is the nationality of campana again ?

[JAM]

Campana in MC... hmmmm what is the nationality of campana again ?

The same nationality that he had in the rally of France some months before.

Didn't changed nationality, only changed car and team.

[N.O.T]

The same nationality that he had in the rally of France some months before.

Didn't changed nationality, only changed car and team.

and roads...

[JAM]

and roads...

And date too. Another year and another month.

And i think the tyres were not the same too...

[N.O.T]

if you consider the alsace roads resemble those of Corsica or Monte which are basically a 2 hour boat trip, then its ok...

[JAM]

if you consider the alsace roads resemble those of Corsica or Monte which are basically a 2 hour boat trip, then its ok...

Alsace roads were not so unknown to Campana as you think.

Next excuse please...

[N.O.T]

the thing is i am not searching for excuses...you do, in order to support the fact that armindo is something more than another tourist who gets unfair treatment by a team he pays millions

...now why they would do that ???

as for campana lets have this discussion if he competes in france this year with the same team...thne we can have safer conclusions.

[sollitt]

it was always like that when a manufacturer was involved... in the 70s 80s 90s ects ects....Not necessarily so at all NOT. In the 70's & 80's particularly, manufacturers embraced top privateers as enhancing their brand and shared the technology. The other difference was that a privateer was able to build their own car to the homologation and add their own expertise sometimes even eclipsing the manufacturers.

[cali]

When this JAM rant is going to end? I think I did get it what he was trying to say in about 2 of his first posts. Is it really necessary to keep on going until everybody agrees with you? Good topic spoiled ....

[N.O.T]

Not necessarily so at all NOT. In the 70's & 80's particularly, manufacturers embraced top privateers as enhancing their brand and shared the technology. The other difference was that a privateer was able to build their own car to the homologation and add their own expertise sometimes even eclipsing the manufacturers.

and why those top privateers never shined on the stages then ???

[Mirek]

Did you know the the car used in MC was not the italian car, but one from Prodrive? The Motorsport Italia's car was damaged at a fire in Prodrive, and they send one of their own cars.
Armindo made MC for the first time with only 60/70km testing some days before (the first test of the year starting from a zero setu-up). He only tested 60/70km because the car from Prodrive came late...

Prodrive didn't cut enough on this car by mistake :D

I have to say again (is the third or fourth time that i write this) that Armindo is not a top driver, is useless compare him with Sordo. Don't waste your time remembering me it.

Sir, my comments were about driving I saw on stages not about result table. Slow car doesn't make You braking earlier than others, going off the throttle before crests etc. I don't have information to judge the level of car but I can judge what I see on stage.

[JAM]

Sir, my comments were about driving I saw on stages not about result table. Slow car doesn't make You braking earlier than others, going off the throttle before crests etc. I don't have information to judge the level of car but I can judge what I see on stage.

And you saw the best rally that Armindo made this year, by a kind of mistake with the car set-up. :D

Now you can imagine the other rallyes where he was even slower...

[JAM]

the thing is i am not searching for excuses...you do, in order to support the fact that armindo is something more than another tourist who gets unfair treatment by a team he pays millions

Forget Armindo, look at Campana and Flodin. Campana improved a lot when used a Prodrive Mini, but in a different rally. Flodin was faster when driving the S2000 Mini than the WRC, and with the WRC was very slow.



...now why they would do that ???


Good question. But as this this topic is spoiled (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/140344-prodrive-mini-wrc-107.html#post1034798), you have to question Cali (http://www.motorsportforums.com/members/cali-82327/) because the guy seem to have all the answers.

[Red bull]

MIMI are registering in the IRC so maybe MEEK will be active again.Sordo and del Barrio granted waiver to score IRC points in Corsica - News - IRC Intercontinental Rally Challenge - Eurosport (http://www.ircseries.com/news/detail/id/344)

[amilk]

Forget Armindo, look at Campana and Flodin. Campana improved a lot when used a Prodrive Mini, but in a different rally. Flodin was faster when driving the S2000 Mini than the WRC, and with the WRC was very slow.



Good question. But as this this topic is spoiled (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/140344-prodrive-mini-wrc-107.html#post1034798), you have to question Cali (http://www.motorsportforums.com/members/cali-82327/) because the guy seem to have all the answers.


I'm a bit suprised on the discussion - historically it's a fact that factory car usually quicker than privat and real factory driver usually better than privat based on more testing more experience etc.
The Mini story a bit specific and unic and by logic there is no reason for Prodrive to limit MI cars (no fear that Armindo beat Sordo) - even more if they let run latest developments it's a good test etc.

[A FONDO]

MIMI are registering in the IRC so maybe MEEK will be active again.Sordo and del Barrio granted waiver to score IRC points in Corsica - News - IRC Intercontinental Rally Challenge - Eurosport (http://www.ircseries.com/news/detail/id/344)
Prodrive will not run anything different than WRC this year. IRC, ERC and national championships are given to "partner" companies like Drive-Pro. Meek will drive only if somebody cover his costs and agree with Prodrive to lend him.

[JAM]

The Mini story a bit specific and unic and by logic there is no reason for Prodrive to limit MI cars (no fear that Armindo beat Sordo) - even more if they let run latest developments it's a good test etc.

Totally agree with you. But the facts are on the table.

But more interesting: Why two private Minis JCW WRC were faster when were with the S2000 specs? It's strange that was a driver's problem... two drivers problem?

[N.O.T]

Totally agree with you. But the facts are on the table.

But more interesting: Why two private Minis JCW WRC were faster when were with the S2000 specs? It's strange that was a driver's problem... two drivers problem?

for the same reason Villagra was very fast in a Group N car and a nobody in a WRC...

A WRC is a different animal, and not everyone is man enough to handle them.

[Barreis]

It's in driver, not in machine.

[JAM]

for the same reason Villagra was very fast in a Group N car and a nobody in a WRC...

You have to show were you saw Villagra being fast in WRC rallyes with a Group N. His homeland don't count to it.



A WRC is a different animal, and not everyone is man enough to handle them.

Yes it is, with more 20 or 30HP, a biguer wing and differente front brakes. A very differente animal.

Campana is the man that was hable to handle it. But only with a unit from Prodrive. :D

[N.O.T]

You have to show were you saw Villagra being fast in WRC rallyes with a Group N. His homeland don't count to it.



Yes it is, with more 20 or 30HP, a biguer wing and differente front brakes. A very differente animal.

Campana is the man that was hable to handle it. But only with a unit from Prodrive. :D

why villagras homeland doesn't count.... yet you count campanas homeland results ????

as for the difference between WRC and s2000... Ogier is very close with mikkelsen in the s2000...you think mikkelsen would be able to win events in a WRC ?? Those brakes, wings, flywheels and the 20-30 bhp separate the men from the scared dogs... guess where your driver belongs.

And the question remains why Armindo settles for a crap car ?? apart from being a tourist with no skills, he also doesn't have any self esteem as well ???

[amilk]

Campana realy great today in Corsica- without Mini WRC, so maybe on Monte not only the car was quick. What I saw there - agree with Mirek some post before, the car handling was different also.

[cali]

Oh dear...and even you N.O.T. are trying to argue with these parallel universe sick dogs. And oh yes. I do have all the answers, Bubbaontour has answered enough, but some babies are still crying ;)

[JAM]

why villagras homeland doesn't count.... yet you count campanas homeland results ????

If you can't understand naturally the difference, wouldn't understand any explanation wathever it would be.



And the question remains why Armindo settles for a crap car ?? apart from being a tourist with no skills, he also doesn't have any self esteem as well ???

Because doing WRC events on a crap car, is much better than be on a forum writing, or be on the side of the road seing others running. And there's always a hope that one of these days Mini open the eyes and demand a decent car.

[JAM]

And oh yes. I do have all the answers,

If your best answer is call me "sick dog", then i understand why you think this discussion is spoiled. You can't start better discussion on this thread than mine.

[cali]

If your best answer is call me "sick dog", then i understand why you think this discussion is spoiled. You can't start better discussion on this thread than mine.
This discussion should have ended a long time ago...no facts, just opinions. Nuff said.

[N.O.T]

It is always nice to argue with yes men... i am immune to their logic because 90% of Greek rally fans are yes men supporting their drivers because of the flag colour no matter how useless they are.

Seems the mentality is the same everywhere... there is always someone else who is responsible for their misery and never themselves.

Armindo is a tourist nothing more nothing less... what he can achieve more even with a car that is up to prodrive standards ? Nothing... a few more seconds and maybe if the s2000 guys sleep he might be able to pass them in 1 or 2 stages...

Of course private cars are downgraded and they have to be... that is how you separate the wheat from the chaff... the sick doggys should not be allowed to play with the real men...if you want something you have to earn it, not given to you.

[tfp]

Because doing WRC events on a crap car, is much better than be on a forum writing, or be on the side of the road seing others running. .

:up:


It is always nice to argue with yes men... i am immune to their logic because 90% of Greek rally fans are yes men supporting their drivers because of the flag colour no matter how useless they are.

Seems the mentality is the same everywhere... there is always someone else who is responsible for their misery and never themselves.

Armindo is a tourist nothing more nothing less... what he can achieve more even with a car that is up to prodrive standards ? Nothing... a few more seconds and maybe if the s2000 guys sleep he might be able to pass them in 1 or 2 stages...

Of course private cars are downgraded and they have to be... that is how you separate the wheat from the chaff... the sick doggys should not be allowed to play with the real men...if you want something you have to earn it, not given to you.

And how do we seperate the "real men" from the "sick dogs" as you put it, if we dont let the best drivers from the "ladycup" classes in WRC cars? Like you say yourself, the WRC car is a different animal altogethor ;)

[N.O.T]

:up:
And how do we seperate the "real men" from the "sick dogs" as you put it, if we dont let the best drivers from the "ladycup" classes in WRC cars? Like you say yourself, the WRC car is a different animal altogethor ;)

They have to prove themselves in the ladycups first... what is so hard to grasp ??

Armindo won the PWRC class when it was actually a tourist assembly... he got his chance in the WRC...he proved he is a tourists himself... now he must not ask for anything more than the proper tourist treatment.

[sollitt]

and why those top privateers never shined on the stages then ???

Oooh but they did ... frequently. But you must also understand that the top drivers generally gravitated to the manufacturer teams who also had more resource.

[N.O.T]

Oooh but they did ... frequently. But you must also understand that the top drivers generally gravitated to the manufacturer teams who also had more resource.

can you name some ??

It is normal the best drivers to be selected and offered the best equipment... it is what happens in every day life as well....

[JAM]

This discussion should have ended a long time ago...no facts, just opinions. Nuff said.

There's a good solution to your problem: Don't open this thread.

[JAM]

Armindo is a tourist nothing more nothing less... what he can achieve more even with a car that is up to prodrive standards ?

Forget Armindo.

If the private Minis up to Prodrive standars are what we see at Grifone and Motorsport Itália, them is obvious the reason why Prodrive can't sell WRC cars. :D

And now they are trying IRC...

Ah, i was forgetting this: Did you remember Sordo in the Grifone's Mini at Monza Rally Show 2011? More than 1min to Loeb? Staying behing Rinaldo Capelo and Valentino Rossi? Huu? :D

[N.O.T]

I do not have anything to discuss with people taking Monza rally show seriously.....

I am not here to defend prodrive...i could not care less if they fold and take the Mini project with them, which is a dead horse as long as there is not proper support from BMW.

i took part in the whole armindo circus because i find it ridicoulous when someone is asking for better equipment when he is doing a very poor job... first you have to prove that you are worthy at what you do then voice any objections...that is how things work, and should work.

[JAM]

I do not have anything to discuss with people taking Monza rally show seriously.....


Let's resume

Campana is fast, but in France 11 didn't count;
Flodin was fast in Sardinia, but in France didn't count;
Sordo is he fastest guy in a Mini, but in Monza didn't count...

... you talked about seriousness?!? Wowww :D

Can you, at least, show to us a fast private Mini WRC? Only one.

[N.O.T]

Campana is not fast outside his back yard...

Flodin is fast in ladycup competitions...like many others

Monza is a show...

Can you show me a fast private car when it is driven by a tourist ??

[JAM]

Campana is not fast outside his back yard...

Except if drives a private Mini. With this car, not even in his back yard.



Monza is a show...


Yes it is, but not for the first ones on the time table. Did you asked to Sordo if it was show?



Can you show me a fast private car ??


No, because if i'll show it, you will say that doesn't count. So, is useless. :D

[EightGear]

Let's resume

Campana is fast, but in France 11 didn't count;
Flodin was fast in Sardinia, but in France didn't count;
Sordo is he fastest guy in a Mini, but in Monza didn't count...

... you talked about seriousness?!? Wowww :D

Can you, at least, show to us a fast private Mini WRC? Only one.

Actually M.Rantanen was faster than both Sordo and Meeke in Finland SS1. Then he crashed.

[N.O.T]

Except if drives a private Mini. With this car, not even in his back yard.

Yes it is, but not for the first ones on the time table. Did you asked to Sordo if it was show?

No, because if i'll show it, you will say that doesn't count. So, is useless. :D

when did campana drove a private mini and when a works one ?

Monza is a show...there is nothing that can be taken seriously...it is like considering the race of champions a true competition...drivers participate and have their head on having a good time and entertain the crowds...

please try me and show me a PRIVATE car driven by a TOURIST that is fast...

[JAM]

Actually M.Rantanen was faster than both Sordo and Meeke in Finland SS1. Then he crashed.

Yes, and with the Grifone's Mini. But it was one stage only...

[sollitt]

can you name some ?? At the office at the moment but just off the top of my head - Russell Brooks, Andy Dawson, in fact anyone who drove an RS1800 who wasn't in the factory team, (in '79 RNZ Mikkola & Robson were in Masport cars whilst Vatenan had the Boreham car), anyone who sat in a David Sutton car, Chequered Flag Stratos (Waldegaard) , Stig Blomqvist wasn't in the factory team when he first entered a Quattro in Sweden, which brings to mind Per Eklund, Mats Jonsson, Gronholm & Martin both had full spec Corollas, who was the Greek that drove the 037 (appliance of science)?, etc, etc, etc ... I could go on but I haven't time.
It is only recently that the ultimate performing cars have been limited to the one or two drivers sitting in the factory seat, whether by manufacturer choice or by regulation.


It is normal the best drivers to be selected and offered the best equipment... it is what happens in every day life as well....That is correct.

[JAM]

when did campana drove a private mini and when a works one ?

In his back yard.



please try me and show me a PRIVATE car driven by a TOURIST that is fast...

Ahhhh you remember thousands of private cars that are fast, and decided to include "TOURIST" on the second version of the question. :D

You are good in rhetoric.

Did you really asked to Sordo and Loeb about Monza? Hum?

[sollitt]

Just thought of a few more for you NOT... Malcolm Wilson (Ford & Audi), Buffum (TR8 & Audi), Marc Duez (Porsche & BMW?), Bettega (Fiat 131), Mouton (Fiat 131), Millen (Mazda323), Sainz (Sierra), Loubet, Auriol, Del Zoppo, Recalde, Airikala (Lancia Integrale).

[N.O.T]

In his back yard.



Ahhhh you remember thousands of private cars that are fast, and decided to include "TOURIST" on the second version of the question. :D

You are good in rhetoric.

Did you really asked to Sordo and Loeb about Monza? Hum?

of course i will include the word tourist because that is my point.... It is not the car that is THAT crap (for sure it is downgraded) it is the driver that makes it look crap...

[N.O.T]

Just thought of a few more for you NOT... Malcolm Wilson (Ford & Audi), Buffum (TR8 & Audi), Marc Duez (Porsche & BMW?), Bettega (Fiat 131), Mouton (Fiat 131), Millen (Mazda323), Sainz (Sierra), Loubet, Auriol, Del Zoppo, Recalde, Airikala (Lancia Integrale).

yes, everyone started in a private car, nobody was born inside a car manufacturer...

the guys you mention had notable results, but so did the drivers of today with private cars (Solberg, Latvala, Hirvonen, Novikov, ostberg ects) the question is did anyone ever win constantly in a private car or was able to challenge constantly in them back in the 70s 80s ??

the thing is private cars were always a bit downgraded...it is not just a todays phenomenon.

[AndyRAC]

Not really a good comparison I think, can you name any in the last 10 years?

Those were the times when talented people could find sponsors to support them. When a top car costed only half as much as it costs now and the costs of doing an event maybe 1/4th of what it is now. The times when you could win almost half a minute on one stage...
Times change... So does our sport and I'm not sure if it's in a positive way.

I am sure it's not a positive way. It suits the current Manufacturers that the cars cost so much......and as long as this remains, the sport is going nowhere. As Nicky Grist said in his interview the other night, the sport needs a re-write. Whether that is with the current Manufacturers is another matter.

[JAM]

the thing is private cars were always a bit downgraded...it is not just a todays phenomenon.

Private cars are a litle bit downgraded, it's normal. What is not normal, is the private cars be always much slower, even when are driven by the works driver in an event like Monza RallyShow.

And it's not normal that the same car in private hands is faster with S2000 configuration than with WRC configuration.

You can use the tourist bull****t in you rethoric about all the drivers, but the facts above are simple and obvious.

[Tumbo]

And it's not normal that the same car in private hands is faster with S2000 configuration than with WRC configuration.


Actually there are a number of factors at play there - a driver who feels 100% comfortable in a slower car may easily go faster than the beefier wrc configuration if he doesn't have that same confidence. Also when you look at s2000 config there is the ability to make time up in other ways - but then again easier to just say faster car but he's slower all prodrive's fault

[JAM]

I am sure it's not a positive way. It suits the current Manufacturers that the cars cost so much......and as long as this remains, the sport is going nowhere. As Nicky Grist said in his interview the other night, the sport needs a re-write. Whether that is with the current Manufacturers is another matter.

One of the main problem is the business model. This business works if the manufacturer controls everything, or by other words, if he can do money in everything. If we has to sell only part of the package to the privateers, then the car is crap. That's why almost all the private drivers run with second manufacturers team.

The manufacturers don't let private teams grow, they want to earn all the possible cent on thgis business. In the last 4 years we had only two exceptions.

And we have another problem: Technology. We can't stop the R&D, but there's enough money to pay it? It's not a WRC problem, is a motorsport problem.

[Cacatua]

Shouldn't be put all this stuff about Araujo's "hidden potential" in another thread? Don't think all this really fits in this one.
I remember some guy pulling their hair for much less than this until he was appointed moderator, looks like now he can't take charge of his duties.

[cali]

Shouldn't be put all this stuff about Araujo's "hidden potential" in another thread? Don't think all this really fits in this one.
I remember some guy pulling their hair for much less than this until he was appointed moderator, looks like now he can't take charge of his duties.
no no, misunderstood this forum completely. The right attitude should be "don't open this thread" ... Asyou may have witnessed yourself.

[sollitt]

Times change... So does our sport and I'm not sure if it's in a positive way.This is exactly the point. And the examples I gave were merely to counter an emphatic, and incorrect, statement made by NOT.

The drivers I have mentioned, at various times, drove cars of full factory spec whilst not being one of the 2,3 or 4 drivers in the factory team.

This is primarily for two reasons which I've already stated. 1. The factories embraced top privateers using their brand, often even assisting them in their efforts and/or relying on them to carry the flag.
And 2. The cars were permitted to be built by the privateers who had access to the componentry and it was not unheard of for the privateers to develop improvements which the factory would homologate.

There existed a level of 'co-operation' across the sport which provided opportunity for privateers to demonstrate their ability which does not exist today. And that is to the detriment of the game.

[N.O.T]

This is exactly the point. And the examples I gave were merely to counter an emphatic, and incorrect, statement made by NOT.

The drivers I have mentioned, at various times, drove cars of full factory spec whilst not being one of the 2,3 or 4 drivers in the factory team.

This is primarily for two reasons which I've already stated. 1. The factories embraced top privateers using their brand, often even assisting them in their efforts and/or relying on them to carry the flag.
And 2. The cars were permitted to be built by the privateers who had access to the componentry and it was not unheard of for the privateers to develop improvements which the factory would homologate.

There existed a level of 'co-operation' across the sport which provided opportunity for privateers to demonstrate their ability which does not exist today. And that is to the detriment of the game.

the thing is the drivers you mention did not achieve anything better than the private drivers of today (hirvonen when he was driving the viita car was quite fast, novikov won stages in private citroens, same as solberg and ostberg ects), thus this leads to the assumption that the private cars to the past were also downgraded, their drivers had good results but never a real chance at winning.

[sollitt]

Excuse me ??? Perhaps NOT, in your haste to discredit everybody else's writings, you might take a little time to learn about the sport of which you claim to be an expert.

Mikkola won NZ in '79 in a Masport prepared & run car, Robson was 2nd, Vatenan 3rd in the factory car. '79 GB Brookes was 2nd, (and how many other times did he achieve a similar finish?), in '82 Blomqvist won Sweden, what did Vatanen achieve in a David Sutton car, Auriol in a Jolly Club car, Sainz in the private Sierra Cosworth.
All of the drivers that I mentioned earlier were on the pace of, and achieving results against, the factory efforts. Or perhaps in partnership with them and that's the difference to today.
The fact is in the Grp4 era you could obtain the same componentry, or make your own, and build the car in your shed at home. There was no dumbing down because no one else had control.
Even as recently as the GrpA/WRC era if you owned the car you had total freedom to build it within the framework, and to the absolute limits, of the homologation. And privateers could, and did, achieve results against, or alongside, the factories.
The difference today is that you cannot build a compliant car in your shed and neither can you buy one. You can only lease, with presumably a list of clauses restricting your access to technology and freedom to tamper with it. Consequently your performance is entirely at the whim of the manufacturer.

[GigiGalliNo1]

What about Manfred Stohl? =)

[Plan9]

Well Prodrive-Mini and Dani did something wonderful today. First win for a MINI rally car in an "international" series. Also Dani's first win in the same circumstances. Who would have thought it would take so long?

[N.O.T]

Excuse me ??? Perhaps NOT, in your haste to discredit everybody else's writings, you might take a little time to learn about the sport of which you claim to be an expert.

Mikkola won NZ in '79 in a Masport prepared & run car, Robson was 2nd, Vatenan 3rd in the factory car. '79 GB Brookes was 2nd, (and how many other times did he achieve a similar finish?), in '82 Blomqvist won Sweden, what did Vatanen achieve in a David Sutton car, Auriol in a Jolly Club car, Sainz in the private Sierra Cosworth.
All of the drivers that I mentioned earlier were on the pace of, and achieving results against, the factory efforts. Or perhaps in partnership with them and that's the difference to today.
The fact is in the Grp4 era you could obtain the same componentry, or make your own, and build the car in your shed at home. There was no dumbing down because no one else had control.
Even as recently as the GrpA/WRC era if you owned the car you had total freedom to build it within the framework, and to the absolute limits, of the homologation. And privateers could, and did, achieve results against, or alongside, the factories.
The difference today is that you cannot build a compliant car in your shed and neither can you buy one. You can only lease, with presumably a list of clauses restricting your access to technology and freedom to tamper with it. Consequently your performance is entirely at the whim of the manufacturer.

still the results of todays privateers are not that far from the ones you mention...

Ostberg in sweden last year, Hirvonen and latvalas performance as well with their private entries...and also solberg the last few years

I am not trying to discredit you.... but the facts indictate that the difference between the private cars of today with the private cars of the past is not that big as people imagine....the manufacturers were the ones that dominated and dominate with the private cars trying to catch up in both eras... what did the privateers of the past achieved more than the privateers oft he present era ?? i cannot see a huge difference which would indictae that the private cars of the past eras had exactly the same stuff as the manufacturers.

[sollitt]

... what did the privateers of the past achieved more than the privateers oft he present era ?? i cannot see a huge difference which would indictae that the private cars of the past eras had exactly the same stuff as the manufacturers. Mikkola won in a private car, Vatanen won in a private car, Blomquist won, Jonsson won etc, etc, etc...
How? By producing and running a car the equal of the works cars, either in competition or in collaberation with the factory. And as often as not it was the latter.

Your problem NOT is that you are theorizing an issue which is really simply black and white. The private cars of past era were able to be the equal of the factory cars because the componentry was freely available as was the ability to 'engineer' the car yourself. Freedoms not available today.

The factories have never had a monopoly on engineering skill. They won 90% of the time because they had the greatest resource and employed the top drivers, often 3, 4 or 5 per team.

Where the factories did have it over the privateers, other than budgetry, was in the timing of certain homologations and with 3rd party contracts (i.e. tyre suppliers) working to their advantage ... although these could work both ways as with Blomquists private contract with Michelin favouring him over the Audi team in Sweden '82.

[N.O.T]

I must say i do not know much about the technical regulations of the eras previous to the 90s... but as i said the wins you mention came from a straight fight ? or with an Ostberg/portugal flavour...especially in the old times where survival skills mattered more than speed... ??

i just cannot accept the fact that factory teams would give away their technical knowledge that easy in the old times, while now they control their private entries as they wish...

My belief is that the teams always had something extra on privateers.... but the fact that technology was not that advanced 30-40 years ago and things were more mechanical than electronic made it easier for the privateers then to be closer to the manufacturer....but i doubt a privateer would drive exactly the same car...after all they had to buy the parts from somewhere, and results show that manufacturers had always the upper hand apart from a few specialised events or when things went wrong for them retirement wise... a bit like today... you can see private entries shinning on specialised events (panizzi monte 99, ostberg sweden last year ects) but the general picture remains that the manufacturer entry is ahead.

[sollitt]

i just cannot accept the fact that factory teams would give away their technical knowledge that easy in the old times ... Well believe it, because that was reality. But it wasn't always about giving away their technical knowledge. More here's the components, see what you can make of them. And sometimes the advancements and information flow worked backwards. For example, I may be mistaken but I seem to recall it was Andy Dawson who developed the single leaf spring and coil over shock for RS1800 and Boreham homologated it.

[JAM]

i just cannot accept the fact that factory teams would give away their technical knowledge that easy in the old times, while now they control their private entries as they wish...


Now they want to have all the package under control. By one side they mantain the know-how on his hands (the competition is hard and expensive), by other hand they earn some extra millions doing the work that was done in the past by the privat teams (putting private drivers running).

The technology nowadays is very far expensive and complyex that decades ago, and some of the issues discussed here ahave to do with it.

[Coach 2]

Now they want to have all the package under control. By one side they mantain the know-how on his hands (the competition is hard and expensive), by other hand they earn some extra millions doing the work that was done in the past by the privat teams (putting private drivers running).

The technology nowadays is very far expensive and complyex that decades ago, and some of the issues discussed here ahave to do with it.

As long as the rally cars run among ordinary vehicles on public roads, they must meet all requirements to get the numberplates. This responsibility also falls on FIA. There is a big difference in building / customizing a car to Gr R, N, or the old A regulations, than to allow anyone to build a WRC car. Remember: the greatest fool is not born yet.
I seem to remember that if you wanted to build a kit car yourself, you had to use body parts that were only produced by the factory. For safety reasons of course.

[tfp]

Now they want to have all the package under control. By one side they mantain the know-how on his hands (the competition is hard and expensive), by other hand they earn some extra millions doing the work that was done in the past by the privat teams (putting private drivers running).

The technology nowadays is very far expensive and complyex that decades ago, and some of the issues discussed here ahave to do with it.

Maybe the cars of the past that (I guess) are much less complicated (like with engine mapping, etc) and a privateer could more easily replicate the performance of the factory cars? And IMO Sollit is correct and results dont lie. But NOT mentions the "straight fight", maybe with the bigger stages back then far more could happen than now, and perhaps the misfortune of the factory cars with punctures etc on the huge stages may have handed the win to a privateer in second place.

Maybe if we saw some of the sprints (IE shorter SS's) stage times then we could compare them better, or maybe that is the subject for another topic :p

[JAM]

As long as the rally cars run among ordinary vehicles on public roads, they must meet all requirements to get the numberplates. This responsibility also falls on FIA. There is a big difference in building / customizing a car to Gr R, N, or the old A regulations, than to allow anyone to build a WRC car. Remember: the greatest fool is not born yet.
I seem to remember that if you wanted to build a kit car yourself, you had to use body parts that were only produced by the factory. For safety reasons of course.

I think you didn't understand the meaning of "package".

I made reference to package as build, prepare and sell the renting services.

As you see, Ford and Citroen have their own B-Team to privateers. In the past, there were a lot of b-teams, but all independent from the manufacturer/Developper.

Mini has a B-team (WRC Team Mini Portugal), but is not part of the manufacturer representative/developper (Prodrive), and is seen by everybody the kind of treatment that this B-Team receives from the developer. Receives crap material, and crap know-how. And receives also the evoluitins very late (Sordo had the 01B version in Portugal, but it seems Armindo will have to wait some months to have it).

The example of Mini is perfect of how things are done nowadays.

[sollitt]

Let's not become overly philosophical about this. The reason the drivers in the examples I gave won events in privately run cars had nothing to do with the length of the stages or how unsophisticated the cars were. It was simply because they were top works drivers, at the top of their game, and they were using gear that was the equivalent of the best available at the time, often in partnership with, or representing, the works team.
Their mention was purely to demonstrate that in past era private teams could, and did, avail themselves of the same specification equipment as used by the works teams ... and it's not a situation that was limited to the 70's & 80's.
Imagine if you can what the WRC might look like today if, for the past decade, those with the wherewithall to fund a private WRC assault were able to access the very latest full spec machinery in which to sit some of the top drivers who are presently without a seat.

[JAM]

Imagine if you can what the WRC might look like today if, for the past decade, those with the wherewithall to fund a private WRC assault were able to access the very latest full spec machinery in which to sit some of the top drivers who are presently without a seat.

The answer is obvious: The developers/manufacturer wouldn't receive so much money from rents.

[sollitt]

The answer is obvious: The developers/manufacturer wouldn't receive so much money from rents.Not necessarilly at all. Anyone with the wherewithall to fund a private WRC campaign is already an achiever, a winner. Winners want to be in the main game. They don't settle for 2nd best or to be "the best of the rest". It could well be that, rather than reduce their earnings, opening the accessability up might enhance their business.

[janvanvurpa]

Well believe it, because that was reality. But it wasn't always about giving away their technical knowledge. More here's the components, see what you can make of them. And sometimes the advancements and information flow worked backwards. For example, I may be mistaken but I seem to recall it was Andy Dawson who developed the single leaf spring and coil over shock for RS1800 and Boreham homologated it.


Sollitt, You are seeing the very reason I find this forum much more pleasant using the ignore fuction for the Greek guy who does NOT know anything that is NOT easy to find on the monitor in the lab he lives in, which presumably he's busy surfing the net and NOT researching whatever he supposed to be researching.

I know that the manufacturers shared parts and knowhow and connections, you know it, anybody who was around even as a fan from the 70s rigth on to the introduction of the "World Rally Car" subset of Group A--and maybe more pointedly, the ascendency of Dave richards marketing model ie Prodrive...
I have downstairs 6-7 large blueprints I got maybe 9 years ago when i was building a Ford Cosworth BDG for a guy over hear. Factory prints with ever detail and measurement and setting to make the then normal 252 bhp... I have several copies of the wonderful book "Ford Escort Rally Preparation"
http://www.neilfletcherracing.co.uk/sale_stuff/Prep_1.jpg
when was a gem of a book....which now, anybody who is interested, can find hosted all over them place
Ford Escort Rally Preparation (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/89499273/Ford-Escort-Rally-Preparation)

Ford gave away a mountain of detailed information on every part you could think of, and better they explained what things mean. And they did that with the Escort book from the mid/late 70s, the book "How to to prepare the Sierra for Motorsport" by mid '88, supplements for the 4x4 Sapphire in GpA or GpN by 1990, for the escort Cosworth by '93, again in both GpA and N, the F2 RS2000.
Spring rates, damper rates, ride height, brake disc sizes, master cylinder sizes, alignment setting front and rear, how to do that on GpN cars, ideal diff settings and where to send the GKN Visco-drive diffs in Solihull to get them set right for gravel or tarmac right down to the telephone number and contact (Barra, now at Barra Motorsport in nearby Bromsgrove, Worcs----this contact from 20+ years ago I've supplied to poor bastids stuck with those modern Misterbitchi and Sub-a-rats who are adrift with no information here in Fortress America)
And the funny thing is all this valuable, detailed information I had long before I had a Ford. It was detailed and rich enough to apply the knowledge to other cars in build techniques, and suspension, gearing etc...

For my rally days I had decided to do the mighty Saab 96 V4 as i was running a specialty business centered on those wonderful cars and for information I simply called old friends at Trend AB on Kungsholmstrand in Stockholm and asked if there was any built info and parts list...they made a call or 2 and 10 days later a fat packet of over 200 pages of detail engine build, set up, chassi mods, strenthening instructions, all the various close ratio gearkits and final drives, EVERYTHING you could imagine---and when I called to the nice guy who had sent it (he had been in Competition Department until the factory shut it down at the end of 1980) He gave me the telephone and fax number for the guy who had been the engine builder for all the glory days from Eric Carlsson till the end....who now is a good friend who I stayed with a couple of times including a month once after a silly divorce (My friend has a nice flat above the shop and he said "You stay here for a month. Well screw with V4s in the day and drink and talk about rally in the evening and not think about divorce....man can he drink!)
When working on Opels, same thing, "Call this guy, he does development work for Opel, and he thinks he speaks Swedish". Very friendly, very happy to discuss detail and show "tricks of the trade" (the guy is Norwegian and speaks a mix of Norwegian, German, Swedish and English. Thank God I do pretty good job faking Norwegian and passable German)
VW, same thing, hundred of pages of set up, assembly etc...contact numbers to people in the loop..

How can you possibly explain the details of what actually occured and what the norm WAS working in and around real cars to a creature who probably would NOT know the difference between a Subaru crank and a Ford crank if you smashed him over the head with it...

That is why I maintain EVERYTHING here is basically "pub talk".
man you have more patience than I (or maybe I'm just tired after making chips all afternoon in the machine shop for a kit to mount Toyota Supra rear LSD diffs into US market Sierras---so we can buy short ratio final drives for under USD 200, and its 25c in the shop.

[sollitt]

Good on you John. I don't know whether it's patience, tenacity or stupity (I should be doing something more productive).

Anyway, I too have one of the Ford preparations books and a catalogue of all Ford Motorsport parts, which I obtained in about 1979, packed away somewhere in the archives ...
such was the availability of the information.

Sometime in 1978 a rather large & loud renowned car and engine builder, with whom I was quite well acquainted, from a little place called Paraparaumu (NZ) arrived on the doorstep
of DTV HQ (Shepreth?) wanting to know the intricacies of the works Chevette rally cars as he was charged with the task of building two for NZ's Dealer Team effort.
He wasn't initially warmly received, not because he was considered competition but rather because they weren't convinced he knew what he was doing.
The story has it that whilst debating his credentials he overheard a conversation between two DTV engineers mulling a problem they'd been unable to solve for some time.
Muscling in on the conversation our man offered a solution which proved to be the answer to their problem.
The welcome mat immediately went out and following an intense 3 or 4 days of open demonstration and disclosure, Peter flew home with all of the photos, blueprints and data required to replicate
the works car in it's entirety together with a suitcase full of 'unobtainable' parts.
When a full works car was sent for Airikala to contest RNZ in '79, that car remained in NZ afterward for use in our national series. Just another example of the open co-operation of the time.

[AndyRAC]

Didn't some Ford dealerships have RS parts for sale that could be put on your car, for use in Rallying? I'm pretty sure they did. Imagine that now.....[ ;) ] okay, maybe not.

[JAM]

Not necessarilly at all. Anyone with the wherewithall to fund a private WRC campaign is already an achiever, a winner. Winners want to be in the main game. They don't settle for 2nd best or to be "the best of the rest". It could well be that, rather than reduce their earnings, opening the accessability up might enhance their business.

Are you saying me that a private team (like some that we have in Europe) weren't able to do the same that the MSport B-Team is doing or Citroen JWRT? You're completely wrong.

If you look at Ostberg team, you see that when a manufacturer releases decent material and know-how to a good team, that team is able to do an excelent job. Ostberg already won a rally this year. Of course that Adapta Team has no chance to have a second car.

[N.O.T]

Sollitt, You are seeing the very reason I find this forum much more pleasant using the ignore fuction for the Greek guy who does NOT know anything that is NOT easy to find on the monitor in the lab he lives in, which presumably he's busy surfing the net and NOT researching whatever he supposed to be researching.



it is really sad that you failed at what you did as a rally driver, mechanic ,rally florist or whatever your job/hobby was is and you like to make things personal to abandon your inferiority complex, it is even sadder that you are old enough now so no more dreams just facing reality for the rest of your life 50.000 miles away from home...

but it is ok.... just think that for every succesfull person at whatever they do, there are at least 10.000 of people like you...so you you are not alone.

you really want to go personal with a person you will never know and probably do not want to ?? over the interwebs ??

meh...not very wise for your age.

[sollitt]

Are you saying me that a private team (like some that we have in Europe) weren't able to do the same that the MSport B-Team is doing or Citroen JWRT? No, I'm not saying that at all. How do the cars used by the M-Sport B team & Citroen JWRT compare to those used by Latvala & Loeb?

[JAM]

No, I'm not saying that at all. How do the cars used by the M-Sport B team & Citroen JWRT compare to those used by Latvala & Loeb?

They are not the same, but with exceptions. Ogier won Portugal in 2010 with a JRT car. Duval had a Stobart car some years agor with top factory specs. Ostberg had a Stobart car in Sweden 11 top level (by other reasons)

It's a question of a manufacturer want or not. And when they want, they put the private cars at the same levels. But today, even the private cars are run by the manufacturers.

[janvanvurpa]

it is really sad that you failed at what you did as a rally driver, mechanic ,rally florist or whatever your job/hobby was is and you like to make things personal to abandon your inferiority complex, it is even sadder that you are old enough now so no more dreams just facing reality for the rest of your life 50.000 miles away from home...

but it is ok.... just think that for every succesfull person at whatever they do, there are at least 10.000 of people like you...so you you are not alone.

you really want to go personal with a person you will never know and probably do not want to ?? over the interwebs ??

meh...not very wise for your age.


No, what is sad is that some Glollum-like creature blathers and spews thousands and thousands of words based on a totally imagined foundation and then worse exhibits his canyon like, miles wide, miles deep lack of knowledge by arguing with the very people who can help him understand how wide and deep his lack of knowledge is---even if it is like throwing a handful of sand into the Atlantic hoping to fill the Mid-Atlantic Rift.
I didn't fail at those things you listed, I did just what I chose to do, no shame in doing what I did, and do, and no shame in getting criticized by somebody who in the context of Motosport, is NOT even a village driver, NOT even a village co-driver, NOT even a guy who air's up the tires for a village team, and from the daily hate you spew, obviously NOT even a spectator except once a year when they let you out on parole. Your words weigh NOThing...

Now if you are NOT a real 1005 keyboard jckey you will apologize to the poor weary forum members for talking crap that originated NOwhere other than your overactive imagination, and from insulting members.


Back to "ignore: NOTthing"

[janvanvurpa]

I think Sweden 2011 was one of the only events where factory and private cars were so equal... As it was the first event for all.

@ N.O.T. and janvanvurpa: You can do personal things through PM also...
@ janvanvurpa: You seem to be NOT so good in ignoring NOT :D

When was the last time we had a decent AND active moderator here?

My almost neighbor from Roselare, we can only try. but people use the "quote" function and then almost with not intend, we see crazy and absurd things being said. A decent sense of respect for the efforts of those who years past built and serviced and drove in events and a decent respect for the truth, nearly demands that a person speaks up..or the truth and history will be lost.

It might be approximately if you read somewhere --written by somebody who had never been near your country--"They didn't have the same beer for everybody in Belgium back then, and its alway been natural in Belgium that they give the best beer to the works beer drinkers. And they don't have good fritjes in Belgie either"
Something like that would probably make you try to set the record straight out of respect for the truth.

[Franky]

So, anything new in this Prodrive case?

[tfp]

it is really sad that you failed at what you did as a rally driver, mechanic ,rally florist or whatever your job/hobby was is and you like to make things personal to abandon your inferiority complex, it is even sadder that you are old enough now so no more dreams just facing reality for the rest of your life 50.000 miles away from home...

but it is ok.... just think that for every succesfull person at whatever they do, there are at least 10.000 of people like you...so you you are not alone.

you really want to go personal with a person you will never know and probably do not want to ?? over the interwebs ??

meh...not very wise for your age.


:D

[jcatanho]

i just cannot accept the fact that factory teams would give away their technical knowledge that easy in the old times, while now they control their private entries as they wish...



If you consider the rules at the time you will find that easy to accept.

In the "old times" any driver could score points for a manufacturer. That means that the pilot finishing in the highest position for one manufacturer would score points for that manufacturer. It didn't matter if it was a factory or a private entry. This rule was on until the early 90s.

So official teams could took advantage from giving all the technicall knowledge to private teams. And from 1973 to 1978 the WRC was only a manufacturer championship, there was no pilot championship.

Nowadays we have a team championship (which IMHO was another FIA mistake) so M-Sport, Stobard or Adapta cars do not score points for Ford but for their own team!

[JAM]

So, anything new in this Prodrive case?

Well, Prodrive was not able to suply the 01B parts to the official team in Portugal. The team was not able to put it on the car on time to Argentina, but was booked to be used in Greece.

Now, sources from Motorsport Itália and Prodrive said that they had no time to mount the new evolution parts on time to Greece.

One day after, Bruno di Pianto said in a interview that after all was not lack of time that prevent the debut in Greece. The italian said that Kris Meeke told him in a conversation that the 01B parts were not tested on rough conditions, and acording that information WRC Team Mini Portugal aka Motorsport Itália decided to not use it in Greece.

And Drive Pro already has a 01B unit on sale:

SORDO'S MINI CORSICA LAST WINNER. Rallycars.info (http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/clas/index.php?ct=fsrc&md=details&id=62502)

I think the Prodrive Mini project is at the end.

[TyPat107]

Um isn't there business to sell cars?

Thats like saying the fruit stand is selling bananas, they must be getting out of the banana business.

[rallyfiend]

Um isn't there business to sell cars?

Thats like saying the fruit stand is selling bananas, they must be getting out of the banana business.

Yes, it's Prodrive's business to sell cars, but why would DrivePro sell the two cars they have?

They've just had a successful rally, you'd think they'd hang on to them to try and rent them to other paying punters and make some more money.

[Barreis]

They rent the cars and if they don't rent it enough frequently, they have to sell them. Nothing special.

[rallyfiend]

They rent the cars and if they don't rent it enough frequently, they have to sell them. Nothing special.

So that doesn't bode too well for Prodrive if there's no demand to rent or buy two of the more successful Mini's.....

[Barreis]

Well, it's sport for very rich people and if you can pay large sum of money, then you'll take better option like ford. Also mini won in Corsica 'cos of great driver.

[JAM]

Um isn't there business to sell cars?


Yes it is, but how can they sell cars if they didn't had the new version to the official team?
Are you forgetting that in Portugal (where Prodrive debuted the 01B) the official team was debuting a new car but the old version, because Prodrive hadn't enough 01B parts to costumers?
And why the official team don't have the 01B and Drive Pro has one?

With this selling strategy, it seems that Prodrive don't want to sell cars, at least new and competitive cars.

By the way, how many people left Prodrive on the last two months?

[Plan9]

I think this thread is starting to need some intervention from somebody in the know.

[Plan9]

You are quite correct. I should make myself more clear. I was referring to the topic itself. I think that the guy who is a mechanic at prodrive could clear some of this debate up. It has been interesting to follow thus far. I am keen to know myself what they plan to do with the 01B.

[janvanvurpa]

How to become a moderator:
1. Make a topic that there should be a new moderator.
2. Propose yourself as the perfect moderator.
>>Invent a phrase for normal conversation which you don't like like "Cafe prat" or similar
3. Being moderator delete random posts for a few weeks randomly say "This is Cafe Pratje!"
4. Never visit the forum anymore.

It works, I think...

Fixed that for you, my almost neighbor.

[bubbaontour]

You are quite correct. I should make myself more clear. I was referring to the topic itself. I think that the guy who is a mechanic at prodrive could clear some of this debate up. It has been interesting to follow thus far. I am keen to know myself what they plan to do with the 01B.

Yeh i could..... but i would probably be out of a job just as things are picking back up a bit.

So no coment

[tfp]

Yeh i could..... but i would probably be out of a job just as things are picking back up a bit.

So no coment

"just as things are picking back up a bit"
Say no more, Im in high hopes that there is good news for your team on the horizon!

[Plan9]

Yeh i could..... but i would probably be out of a job just as things are picking back up a bit.

So no coment


I guess no news can sometimes be good news after all.

[turves]

Hi

Does anyone have a picture of the back end of the mini, either on stage or standing still?

If so, please can you PM me?

Thanks

[Barreis]

Your best post. :D

[A.F.F.]

If you consider the rules at the time you will find that easy to accept.

In the "old times" any driver could score points for a manufacturer. That means that the pilot finishing in the highest position for one manufacturer would score points for that manufacturer. It didn't matter if it was a factory or a private entry. This rule was on until the early 90s.

So official teams could took advantage from giving all the technicall knowledge to private teams. And from 1973 to 1978 the WRC was only a manufacturer championship, there was no pilot championship.

Nowadays we have a team championship (which IMHO was another FIA mistake) so M-Sport, Stobard or Adapta cars do not score points for Ford but for their own team!

Reminds me of Mikael Sundström who managed to build faster Mazda 323 group-A cars with his own team than official team itself. And correct me if I'm totally wrong but it was also Sundström's team who gave technical knowledge and hints for tuning up for Team Mazda :)

[Kielder]

Two hours ago @RALLYMAN40 wrote a comment to the @MINIMotorsport Youtube's video "In the Cockpit with Kris Meeke":
"Whats happened to kris he's a great driver look what he did in the irc. I dont think colin mcrae wouldve of invested in kris if he didnt see potential!!!".
This was the MINIMotorsport answer minutes ago:
"@Rallyman40, Kris is without a doubt a great driver. With the re-structuring of the WRC project however, Kris has not competed on the WRC level lately. But there is no doubt that he will be back in a WRC car soon".
Empty words...

[noel157]

Meeke will be back, maybe not until next season. Has had some one off offers/chances this season but is concentrating on 2013 and currently doing some development work.

[Plan9]

Does anyone know what plans if any Sandell has for the rest of this season and beyond? I was surprised not to see him in NZ as he knows the event quite well.

[JAM]

Motorsport Italia press release at August the 16th

Beginning but not the End

'Ciao a tutti,

'It’s Bruno here. I’m sure most of you are surprised to hear from me right now, but I’m afraid I have some news that I wanted to tell you all personally. Unfortunately, Armindo and Miguel will no longer be competing with WRC Team MINI Portugal.

This season has been highly pressurised from the start. We only found out following Monte-Carlo that we would have the opportunity to run two drivers for the full 13 event WRC Calendar as a works-supported team. The original plan was for Armindo to run seven events as a privateer. Due to our long standing and successful relationship, we wanted Armindo to stay with the team for the full season and he was pleased to join us on our journey. As you can imagine, this was one of the biggest pieces of news that any driver can have. However, the pressure on him was significant.

'After our Rally Finland debrief and further conversations with Armindo since returning home, we decided that it was better for him to take a break, relax and regain his focus on the sport and how he approaches it. We've created a great history together and it's fair to say that he had previously always been motivated and determined in his career. We've worked together for many years now – we even won two Group N world titles together! However, there's always a point where you have to admit that something isn't quite right and I hope that we've accepted that point at just the right time!

'The decision was not taken lightly and was made on purely sporting grounds. It was not a personal decision and everyone in the team wishes Armindo all the best for the future.

'And to answer the question on everybody's lips...

'I'm sure you've all heard the name Chris Atkinson – and if you haven't, you should have! Atko's a really top guy all the way from Australia, fast and experienced and he's going to take over as the team's No. 1 driver, flanked by the oh-so-experienced Belgian Stéphane Prévot for the rest of the season.

They're a killer combination and given how fantastic the fans have been in supporting WRC Team MINI Portugal all year we really hope they’ll be equally supportive of Atko and Prévot when they join us.

'It'll be his first time in a MINI on the test this weekend, but we're confident that Chris can handle any car he lays his hands on and his MINI will love him within minutes. We're all very much looking forward to working with him and Stéphane and seeing what surprises Rallye Deutschland has to offer!

A presto,'