2008 Rally of Turkey - official thread

[Daniel]

the thing is that with the split system Ford put a whole army of cars to clean the road not just Loeb.....tactics are ok up to a point but when they turn dirty its disgusting....
Agreed. Well it takes 4 Fords to beat a Citroen so I think that says it all.

[N.O.T]

the thing is that stobart is an M1 team thus it should be self controlled and a rival to the official team......even in F1, satellite teams are not that lame.....

[ProRally]

Andreas Aigner on Mitsubishi PWRC!
third victory in a row ???

Looks like it, but he is still in the stage....

He and Mitsu will be close to taken the title, after 5 years of Subaru, it will be Mitsu who takes to crown.

Now lets see the how the EvoX will go compared to new shape Impreza, at the moment the 'N14' version is not working at all.... not even Arai or TMR version are in trouble

[Mauri A]

the thing is that with the split system Ford put a whole army of cars to clean the road not just Loeb.....tactics are ok up to a point but when they turn dirty its disgusting....
I´d say clever tactics on dirty roads.

[N.O.T]

I´d say clever tactics on dirty roads.

do you consider the fact that ford forced another team to impose tactics as well clever ??

[SubaruNorway]

the thing is that with the split system Ford put a whole army of cars to clean the road not just Loeb.....tactics are ok up to a point but when they turn dirty its disgusting....

Was just pure luck getting Henning in there though, he didn't even have splits on that stage :p

[Daniel]

do you consider the fact that ford forced another team to impose tactics as well clever ??
N.O.T don't waste your breath. There are too many people who think that because it's legal that it's right.

[jonkka]

Mikkelsen stops

[Ghostwalker]

Since when the use of brains in tactics has been forbidden?

legal yes. yet a very boring way to win. Unsportsmanlike conduct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsportsmanlike_conduct) is what it is.

Whats so great with 2 cars stopping during a stage on purpose to get advantages? What will happen when "all" cars starting to use the same tactics?

[Viking]

the thing is that stobart is an M1 team thus it should be self controlled and a rival to the official team......even in F1, satellite teams are not that lame.....

Ehhh... Stobart is MT-team or M2 if you like.

[Daniel]

Ehhh... Stobart is MT-team or M2 if you like.
Just because they call it one doesn't mean it is one.

They are run by M-Sport.

[Mauri A]

do you consider the fact that ford forced another team to impose tactics as well clever ??
Forced or suggested? There is an old saying here: Whose bread you eat, his songs you sing.

[jonkka]

Just because they call it one doesn't mean it is one.

They are run by M-Sport.

It is, they run under different rules and even if they wanted, it couldn't be M1 team.

[jonkka]

No splits from Aava?

[N.O.T]

we have a different frame of mind Mauri.....so ok.

[Kamikaze]

Mister Mousefart semms to bee frustated too :p

[Mauri A]

we have a different frame of mind Mauri.....so ok.
Happy about that!

[cut the b.s.]

Well done Ford, excellent result, the end justifies the means........




Does it? The WRC is sold to the world as a sport, this wasnt a sporting weekend.
Congratulations to Ford on taking the most tainted rally win in recent years, tomorrow morning I will be calling MSport to see if they have ever considered taking on a sporting director(obviously they dont already have one) because with what they have done this weekend they will be creating Citroen fans

[Kamikaze]

Just because they call it one doesn't mean it is one..

Oh, you mean it is like the private Kronos-Team in wich Loeb was ?

[Daniel]

It is, they run under different rules and even if they wanted, it couldn't be M1 team.
Yeah? Here's a pick of a turkey. Because I say it's a turkey it is.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/primary/bald-eagle-head.jpg

[Daniel]

Oh, you mean it is like the private Kronos-Team in wich Loeb was ?

Did I say Kronos Citroen was a private team?

[jonkka]

Thank you Daniel, I knew I could trust your discretion.

[Daniel]

Thank you Daniel, I knew I could trust your discretion.
Not a problem :) I like cut the B.S am disgusted at Ford doing this. It's one thing for Ford to drop Mikko and Latvala behind but another for them to use team orders for a supposedly independant team. Personally I think there should be some sort of penalty for that sort of thing.....

[Camelopard]

So the rules will get changed again, just like they did after Loeb's disgraceful performance in Greece in 2006 when he was returning to service with bits of the rear of his car flying off left right and centre when he was on a public highway.
Ended up with front wheel drive only, this wouldn't have been allowed in any other European country.

[Mirek]

Congrats to Andy Aigner for third win in a row. Amazing!

[Camelopard]

[quote="Daniel"]Yeah? Here's a pick of a turkey. Because I say it's a turkey it is.
quote]

Looks more like a protected species to me, just like a lot of people seem to think that Loeb is one as well. :) :) :)

[Viking]

Well we got a race on Sunday again :up: and a real stage shootout!

[edacurf]

]Congrats to Andy Aigner for third win in a row. Amazing!



YES he did it!

[Daniel]

Looks more like a protected species to me, just like a lot of people seem to think that Loeb is. :) :) :)

I don't think Loeb should be a protected species. I just think the rules shouldn't penalise the championship leader.


So the rules will get changed again, just like they did after Loeb's disgracefull performance in Greece in 2006 when he was returning to service with bits of the rear of his car flying off left right and centre when he was on a public highway.
Ended up with front wheel drive only, this wouldn't have been allowed in any other European country.

It was allowed in Australia. 2001 I think it was? Carlos got a Police escort back to service after damaging his car. Sparks trailing from the car. I agree that the rule change for 3 wheeled cars was good. You won't find me disagreeing when it comes to safety :up:

[tmx]

Don't care what other says, excellents drive by Hirvonen.

The driver points are 56 for Loeb and 59 for Hirvonen now. Let's assume, Hirvonen win Finland and GB (I'm making the bet along with Tomi that Hirvonen will likely win Finland than Latvala), 3rd on all tarmac rallies and 2nd on NZ and Japan. Then Loeb could win all those five events where I think he is very strong, then Loeb would be around 120points while Hirvonen around 110 points. Ofcourse it probably won't happen this way, but I know they have probably make these calculations and like Hirvonen said in the beginning of the year, he has to be fighting for the whole year to be able to beat Loeb. It's favorable for Loeb for the second part of the season, even in New Zealand which really suits his style, last year Hirvonen is 1min40sec behind the Marcus when he was fighting with Loeb. So it'll be interesting to see what his times compare to Loeb this year.

[Viking]

Congrats also to Sandell bringing the S2000 car to a podium finish :up:

[Camelopard]

I don't think Loeb should be a protected species. I just think the rules shouldn't penalise the championship leader.



It was allowed in Australia. 2001 I think it was? Carlos got a Police escort back to service after damaging his car. Sparks trailing from the car. I agree that the rule change for 3 wheeled cars was good. You won't find me disagreeing when it comes to safety :up:

Loeb lost both rear wheels, parts of the rear suspension nearly hit a car following as they broke free, I think it was the left rear axle and hub.
Carlos only lost one, Markus was stopped by the Police in the UK a few years ago for only having 3 wheels, the policeman said he couldn't drive it, the reply from Markus was a beauty, something along the lines of "of course I can drive it, if only you would allow me to".

[DonJippo]

I don't think Loeb should be a protected species. I just think the rules shouldn't penalise the championship leader.

In what way rules are penalising championship leader?

[TMorel]

Daniel/NOT
I don't think it's right, but you're correct I do think it's legal and so my anger is directed at the rulemakers.

Daniel/jonkka/anyone else
Have you found what the rules state about a manufacturers cross team tactics? I'm hunting through but can't find anything specific.

Ghostwalker
What will happen will all cars start pulling the same trick? Hopefully the FIA will come to their senses at make the SuperRally Competitors sweep the road first.
Before that happens though, my guess is that Gigi will say sod it to the slowing down and go for the all out speed and nick a win from under everyones nose *g*

cut the b.s
Wouldn't your efforts be better directed somewhere that can make a difference [see above about directing anger at the FIA]
But I also have a lot of respect for you for actually phoning MSport. You're the only one that's actually stated doing something as opposed to just whining.
I'll be interested to hear who you can get hold of and how that conversation goes.


Personally, I'd love to see the teams (both Ford AND Citroen) come to an agreement where they publicly refuse to use these tactics in future regardless of what the rules say. Once they've all agreed that these tactics are wrong and one of them then uses them to gain an advantage, then I'll happily call them cheating scum, but until BOTH teams agree in public I'm not going to have a problem with the individual crew/team.

[Mirek]

Vertunov rolled in one of the latest corners and lost roadcard. He got on wheels, finished stage and his co-driver is now searching that roadcard :D

[Mirek]

http://bilder.vgb.no/6471/4col/img_48541641bc7e7.jpg

[tmx]

Still if they agree to not use tactics, no one can control what the driver does in the stage. The driver can control the pace throughout the stages, they don't have to stop all the sudden. Unless they want to give penalty to the leading driver if the 2nd driver is faster than him in the end of the stage.

[edacurf]

]http://bilder.vgb.no/6471/4col/img_48541641bc7e7.jpg

*g hahahaha Henning wash loeb´s car!

[Viking]

]http://bilder.vgb.no/6471/4col/img_48541641bc7e7.jpg

:up:

Henning having a part time job :D

[Daniel]

Loeb lost both rear wheels, parts of the rear suspension nearly hit a car following as they broke free, I think it was the left rear axle and hub.
Carlos only lost one, Markus was stopped by the Police in the UK a few years ago for only having 3 wheels, the policeman said he couldn't drive it, the reply from Markus was a beauty, something along the lines of "of course I can drive it, if only you would allow me to".

Yes I know all this. All 3 cases were unsatisfactory....

[J4MIE]

Wow, can't believe all the comments about Ford :eek:

They are there to win, they used it all to their advantage and now have a fantastic result! :up:

If Loeb was lower in the championship then Citroen would be getting slated right now, so then we will see how everyone complains about them. I just don't get it :s

[J4MIE]

PS Well done to Barry Clark :up:

[Daniel]

In what way rules are penalising championship leader?

Are you the same DonJippo I owe a pack of makkara to or are you some sort of imposter? :p You know very well what I'm talking about :)

[Daniel]

Wow, can't believe all the comments about Ford :eek:

They are there to win, they used it all to their advantage and now have a fantastic result! :up:

If Loeb was lower in the championship then Citroen would be getting slated right now, so then we will see how everyone complains about them. I just don't get it :s

It's the fact that they used a supposedly independant team to achieve the win. If Ferrari got Torro Rosso to slow down a McLaren in an F1 race they would get penalised.

It's all perfectly legal and above board but it's also unsportsmanlike. You make your choice as to which you prefer. A team who goes all out or a team that needs to use supposedly independant cars to achieve a victory.... I know which I want and if the boot were on the other foot I'd be happy to say how much I dislike Citroen as well.

[Daniel]

Daniel/jonkka/anyone else
Have you found what the rules state about a manufacturers cross team tactics? I'm hunting through but can't find anything specific.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are rules against using another team in your team orders.

[J4MIE]

Ok but surely the stobart guys are running behind on the road, so they wouldn't have a clue what their times are. So, do you suppose they went to stobart and told them to drive as quickly as possible to get ahead of them by a few seconds??? :confused:

And, I suppose, more to the point, do they get them to slow down at all other times?

When these rules came back everybody knew this would happen, and now that it's happened everyone seems shocked :|

[Daniel]

Ok but surely the stobart guys are running behind on the road, so they wouldn't have a clue what their times are. So, do you suppose they went to stobart and told them to drive as quickly as possible to get ahead of them by a few seconds??? :confused:

And, I suppose, more to the point, do they get them to slow down at all other times?

When these rules came back everybody knew this would happen, and now that it's happened everyone seems shocked :|

All they did is tell the Stobart guys to slow down enough to be behind Loeb but be fast enough to be in front of Mikko and JML. Easy enough to do.

Of course we knew this would happen. I'm not surprised at all. Just pissed off that my favourite sport has been turned into a game.

[jonkka]

Have you found what the rules state about a manufacturers cross team tactics? I'm hunting through but can't find anything specific

You can't because there are no rules. Team orders are legal, within the same or between teams - no difference. Team orders were banned for a moment until FIA realized that they could not police use of those, there are so many semi-plausible explanations for teams to get away with team orders so ban was lifted.


What will happen will all cars start pulling the same trick? Hopefully the FIA will come to their senses at make the SuperRally Competitors sweep the road first.

Well, either way someone is going to suffer. With reversed running order, the lowest placed drivers and teams (usually those who are still learning like young drivers and teams like Suzuki) would suffer with the sweeping. That would make life difficult for them, not very motivating for those who are the future hopes of the sport. Also, catching up again after problems is more difficult and problems are more frequent now with mousse banned. On top that, when leader is running after those who chase him, he can drive to the splits. Like I've pointed out, in 2007 rally lead did not change after Day 1 except in Sardinia where Loeb went off and during Rally NZ thriller. Makes days 2 and 3 rather boring.

We all know it's a problem but how to solve it? Both normal and reverse running order have their own problems and neither is good as they stand. Use of special sweeper cars has been the only reasonable solution but it would require quite many good cars and good drivers to drive them. Who would pay, who would arrange this?

[Daniel]

On top that, when leader is running after those who chase him, he can drive to the splits. Like I've pointed out, in 2007 rally lead did not change after Day 1 except in Sardinia where Loeb went off and during Rally NZ thriller. Makes days 2 and 3 rather boring.

It's only boring becuase Loeb and the Xsara/C4 are so good together. If not for Loeb's skill and the C4/Xsara's speed you would see lame tactics like in the WTCC when everyone fights to finish 8th in the 1st race and the championship lead being swapped throughout the season.

[A.F.F.]

So, double win for Ford, hurray :mark:

God for bid the remaining rallyes of the latter part of season are mostly rallyes wehere tactics won't work much. Can't see anyone giving those tenth of seconds away at NORF.

We may just have an interesting end of the season.

[bda]

You can't because there are no rules. Team orders are legal, within the same or between teams - no difference. Team orders were banned for a moment until FIA realized that they could not police use of those, there are so many semi-plausible explanations for teams to get away with team orders so ban was lifted.



Well, either way someone is going to suffer. With reversed running order, the lowest placed drivers and teams (usually those who are still learning like young drivers and teams like Suzuki) would suffer with the sweeping. That would make life difficult for them, not very motivating for those who are the future hopes of the sport. Also, catching up again after problems is more difficult and problems are more frequent now with mousse banned. On top that, when leader is running after those who chase him, he can drive to the splits. Like I've pointed out, in 2007 rally lead did not change after Day 1 except in Sardinia where Loeb went off and during Rally NZ thriller. Makes days 2 and 3 rather boring.

We all know it's a problem but how to solve it? Both normal and reverse running order have their own problems and neither is good as they stand. Use of special sweeper cars has been the only reasonable solution but it would require quite many good cars and good drivers to drive them. Who would pay, who would arrange this?

I agree with everything you said Jonkka.

What about the super rally crews running first on the road?
It sounds like a fair solution to me.

[Viking]

Something like this then ?

1 Mikko Hirvonen 59
2 Sébastien Loeb 56
3 Jari-Matti Latvala 34
4 Chris Atkinson 31
5 Daniel Sordo 30
6 Petter Solberg 20
7 Gigi Galli 17
8 Henning Solberg 16

[J4MIE]

We all know it's a problem but how to solve it? Both normal and reverse running order have their own problems and neither is good as they stand. Use of special sweeper cars has been the only reasonable solution but it would require quite many good cars and good drivers to drive them. Who would pay, who would arrange this?

Give a brush to each spectator who arrives at a stage :)

[Viking]

What about the super rally crews running first on the road?
It sounds like a fair solution to me.

It will get my vote :up: it will also reduce the advantage of running first on tarmac rally!

Please imply this rule before this years tarmac rallies :D

[J4MIE]

It will get my vote :up: it will also reduce the advantage of running first on tarmac rally!

Yes and then people will complain about that..........

[A.F.F.]

Great plan but it'll fail because apparently it will be too confusing to bigger audience :mark:

[TMorel]

Great plan but it'll fail because apparently it will be too confusing to bigger audience :mark:

Oh please, next you'll be saying it's too confusing having the codrivers name written on the side of the car.

[N.O.T]

hmmm what if the superrally car is N4 or a s1600....the WRC cars will have problems catching them in the stage.... or even worse what if the superrally car is Conrad Rautenbach

[Daniel]

Oh please, next you'll be saying it's too confusing having the codrivers name written on the side of the car.
He's being sarcastic.

[A.F.F.]

Oh please, next you'll be saying it's too confusing having the codrivers name written on the side of the car.

It is. Who's driving the car? Who I ask?

[Ghostwalker]

hmmm what if the superrally car is N4 or a s1600....the WRC cars will have problems catching them in the stage.... or even worse what if the superrally car is Conrad Rautenbach

Like it is now they should separate different classes so that each class' superrally rules restarted cars will only go ahead of their class.

[Roy]

Everything worked well! Ford doesn't loose much on these stages. Hirvonen was fast. He has learned a lot to be first on the road. Loeb was miserable this day. I except much more from him. But Oke. 18 points in the pocket! In Finland the other 18 points!
Tarmac is for the Citroen boys and Duval. At other rallies we see a big fight again.

[witto6]

Well done to all the Ford Boys.....nice one!

[Corny]

Loeb was miserable this day. I except much more from him.

Are you joking or what? He has been cleaning the road for nearly 300km, and then finishing only 25 seconds behind Hirvonen..

I'm not so sure Hirvonen could've done the same ;)

[Corny]

*okay it can be the half of that, as all the stages are repeated in current events.. But still, don't think Hirvonen was clearly the better one on Loeb here

[ste898]

Brilliant!!! What a result for Ford in Turkey..

Also Barry Clark did well for 10th place

[AndyRAC]

I don't like the current rules, but Citroen should make more of their cars available like Ford do - and have 3 teams.

[jonkka]

What about the super rally crews running first on the road?

Not a bad idea but there are two buts:
a) number of superralliers is not a constant
b) it does not take into account the need for sweeping

a) Beforehand, it's difficult to say how many drivers are on superrally and what amount would be ideal on given conditions. These two needs would co-incide very rarely and for example on Day 1, there would be no superralliers at all so championship leader would still suffer.

b) Sometimes it's better to be 1st on the road like on tarmac rallies or on wet gravel. So in that sense, allowing the leader to choose his road position would allow flexibility that absolutely rule doesn't have but still it doesn't solve the problem of getting rid of sweeping effect.

[COD]

PS Well done to Barry Clark :up:


For finishing the rally. What else did he achieve? Miles slower than the ridicolous Reutenbach. I'm not impressed

[rp]

For finishing the rally. What else did he achieve? Miles slower than the ridicolous Reutenbach. I'm not impressed

Clark was seven minutes slower than Conrad. It tells something. Is it so sad that two Britons are there to drive World Rally Cars and they are still and always learning. And two great Britons Wilks and Meeke are home...

Of course this was Barry´s first real WRC event behind the wheel of the WRCar, but is someone really thinking that Clark or Wilson will achieve some day the top level of the WRC. Look at the speed of Aava, Mikkelsen or Ostberg. They have more WRCar experience than Clark, but much less than WRCar veteran Wilson. You have to be fast at least sometimes if you have some day the winning speed...

[jparker]

Lets not forget tyres. With good tyres Loeb is unstopable, no mater tactics and start positions. So, finally the tyre scam worked for Ford, but not quite enough to chane the game.

[Xsara Fan]

After all - Hirvonen and Latvala are not ready to win a title. Only in 'cheaters mode'. Wish them luck. They need it.

[Roy]

*okay it can be the half of that, as all the stages are repeated in current events.. But still, don't think Hirvonen was clearly the better one on Loeb here

Hirvonen sweep the frst one and Loeb wins only 5th seconds or something. Latvala and Hirvonen wins on a 4 km shorter stage 15 sec. I had except more of Loeb.
And to all Ford (tactics) haters. Hirvonen and Latvala show today they are fast.

BTW: 100th constitutive points score for Ford today!

[AlfaWRC]

After all - Hirvonen and Latvala are not ready to win a title. Only in 'cheaters mode'. Wish them luck. They need it.

You seem to be a bit filled with bitterness.

[Helstar]

If top guys doesn't have any technical or driver errors today, I'll be surprized if Hirvonen can be better than third. He doesn't have enough experience and confidence to drive fast as a first car on the road. (yet).
Great first post lol

[Xsara Fan]

And to all Ford (tactics) haters. Hirvonen and Latvala show today they are fast.


Hahaha! So funny...

[F1boat]

I think that Ford did what they have to. Thiey are there to win, not to let Loeb wins. Loeb is good enough and is still a favorite for the championship.

[Corny]

Hirvonen sweep the frst one and Loeb wins only 5th seconds or something. Latvala and Hirvonen wins on a 4 km shorter stage 15 sec. I had except more of Loeb.


But these are only 2 stages you are talking about; this rally had 17.. (SS not counted)

[ste898]

For finishing the rally. What else did he achieve? Miles slower than the ridicolous Reutenbach. I'm not impressed

Could you do any better.......

[ste898]

After all - Hirvonen and Latvala are not ready to win a title. Only in 'cheaters mode'. Wish them luck. They need it.

Thats the biggest pile of ****e spoken on here

[cut the b.s.]

Could you do any better.......


Your mummy is calling you for supper Steven

[Daniel]

Could you do any better.......
That has nothing to do with this.....

[cut the b.s.]

Hirvonen sweep the frst one and Loeb wins only 5th seconds or something. Latvala and Hirvonen wins on a 4 km shorter stage 15 sec. I had except more of Loeb.
And to all Ford (tactics) haters. Hirvonen and Latvala show today they are fast.

BTW: 100th constitutive points score for Ford today!

For sure good pace from the Ford boys today, maybe next time we can hope will try and win from the front with a little more style than managed this weekend?

BTW this is a very distorted stat thanks to superrally results, still impressive blurb for the marketing men..

PS I am a Ford fan at heart, I have driven several over the years and have a Sierra as a pet, I have never bought of even felt tempted by any of Citroens products since the 2CV, I am definitely not a Ford hater, I just dislike the tactics used this weekend and would speak against them regardless of what team sought to gain advantage from them

[COD]

Could you do any better.......

No, but I could hardly be any slower in that car. And he did finish, I might not... :laugh:

[bluuford]

Another superb rally.. As I have heard from my friends a lot of them have turned their eyes on rallying (some again and some of them are new) and they say it is because it is so exciting until the end of last km. I am agree with Julien. Last year there was often situation that everything was fixed by the end of Friday and there were almost no changes in leaderboard until the end of rally. But this year. .. I cannot even work on Fridays anymore:-) We cannot forget thaat rallying is for spectators not for drivers :-) otherwise no manufacturers are interested on it.

[Finni]

Are you joking or what? He has been cleaning the road for nearly 300km, and then finishing only 25 seconds behind Hirvonen..

You don't count the fact that Hirvonen intentionally gave up at least 15 seconds in the first day. He had also few little issues during the rally which took maybe 20 sec. So far I don't see that Loeb was much, if any, better in terms of performance.

Hirvonen was particularly fast in friday morning when he had similar pace with Loeb despite weaker road-position. I have noticed that Mikko is quite a tough bone to beat when he gets some smell of win (notice last year's Norway, Finland and Japan).

[Ghostwalker]

Finni, no matter what you say Loeb STILL did sweep the roads the entire friday and saturday. If Mikko wouldnt have given those 15secs away he wouldnt have had such a big lead at the start of Leg 3.

[COD]

Loeb's comments on crash.net:
The regulation is not completely right though," said the four-time world champion, who admitted on Friday he would have done the same had he been in that same position.

"For the sport it's not so nice to see that, but it's normal for Ford to use it. Everybody is talking about the tactics - it would be nice to talk about the speed. Something is a bit wrong in my view. In this rally, Ford played it well and we lost. It is normal."

So Xsara Fan and others who think Citroen or Loeb would have done any differntly should just swallow the bitter tears and admit that its now part of the sport. Maybe even in Finland we might see Loeb pull similar moves.

[A.F.F.]

I don't think we see any tactics in Finland. Road sweeping is not a major problem. Big boys had flat out right from the start even previous system.

[Daniel]

Loeb's comments on crash.net:
The regulation is not completely right though," said the four-time world champion, who admitted on Friday he would have done the same had he been in that same position.

"For the sport it's not so nice to see that, but it's normal for Ford to use it. Everybody is talking about the tactics - it would be nice to talk about the speed. Something is a bit wrong in my view. In this rally, Ford played it well and we lost. It is normal."

So Xsara Fan and others who think Citroen or Loeb would have done any differntly should just swallow the bitter tears and admit that its now part of the sport. Maybe even in Finland we might see Loeb pull similar moves.

It's not so much the fact that Latvala and Mikko slowed down. It's the fact that Ford got Stobart involved too. Citroen don't even have a B team with 2 drivers good enough to be in a works team under their direct control who they can use as pawns in a big lame game of chess anyway so they couldn't have gone the whole hog like Ford did.

Wilson is a smug little git. WRC.com have a story with him trumpeting on about how this is Mikko's best drive of his career. Hopefully Mikko has a brain and realises Wilson is talking bollocks and in a fair fight Loeb would probably have nailed him. Sebastien is going to be driving 300% in Finland and Ford don't have loose gravel to help them nor do they have Marcus. I'd love to see Sebastien on the top of the podium in Jyvaskyla. That would give Malcolm something to talk about.

[Finni]

Finni, no matter what you say Loeb STILL did sweep the roads the entire friday and saturday. If Mikko wouldnt have given those 15secs away he wouldnt have had such a big lead at the start of Leg 3.

You are obviously misinterpretating me.. I have not said that Hirvonen was better than Loeb considering rally as a whole. But in Sunday morning Ford-boys appeared really strong considering road-positions.

[Daniel]

I don't think we see any tactics in Finland. Road sweeping is not a major problem. Big boys had flat out right from the start even previous system.
Yes. No need for tactics there. Sebastien is going to be out for blood so perhaps the sharks need to watch out.


You are obviously misinterpretating me.. I have not said that Hirvonen was better than Loeb considering rally as a whole. But in Sunday morning Ford-boys appeared really strong considering road-positions.

They only swept 1 stage and Sebastien was in 3rd. On day 2 Mikko was 5th on the road and Latvala was 4th also. The Fords had more of an advantage over more stages with more mileage.

[ste898]

Daniel I have been reading though your posts on this thread and others and they are all a load of crap!!!

You have a real chip on your shoulder you are a very sad man!!!!

[MJW]

Finland's gravel does not need sweeping, NORF will be interesting, I guess Ford will have to "cool" the drivers, for sure Jari Matti will be on a different planet, I just hope he stays on the road, Mikko will also be blinding,ly fast but Seb can win IFthe two Ford guys battle each other.

[DonJippo]

Citroen don't even have a B team with 2 drivers good enough to be in a works team under their direct control who they can use as pawns in a big lame game of chess anyway so they couldn't have gone the whole hog like Ford did.

You should not blame Ford about that, it's solely Citroen's decision not to have good enough B team.

[MJW]

We will see when the asphalt rallies come if Citroen is a one driver team only, I would like to see Dani Sordo be allowed to race Seb, just to see who is fastest on asphalt. I guess Citroen wont allow that to happen, so dont moan about a Citroen B team, Citroen is a 1 driver team.

[cosmicpanda]

They only swept 1 stage and Sebastien was in 3rd. On day 2 Mikko was 5th on the road and Latvala was 4th also. The Fords had more of an advantage over more stages with more mileage.

I'm not disputing your last sentence, but on the Sunday Mikko also had to sweep the shakedown stage again as it had apparently been regraded. Loeb won that one and made up about 7 seconds on Latvala.

[RS]

The saddest things I find about this sorry affair is:

- Ford probably could have won without all the tactics "bull****"
- Instead of just excusing themselves for playing by the rules, Ford seem to be actively gloating about their genius in their press releases
- And I feel sorry for Mikko & JML who keep having to "win dirty" (tactics, team orders e.t.c.)

[tmx]

While I'm amused at how naive Oliver is acting/pretending to be comparing to the previous meticulous Frequelin. The Citroen team can keep complaining while the Ford kept winning, or join the game.

[Daniel]

I'm not disputing your last sentence, but on the Sunday Mikko also had to sweep the shakedown stage again as it had apparently been regraded. Loeb won that one and made up about 7 seconds on Latvala.

Loeb was pushing like hell and reported that his tyres were gone after the last stage. The Ford boys knew they had enough of a margin and didn't push as much as they could have.

[tmx]

All three cars had their tires all worn out, all were pushing very hard. Truthfully I thought Loeb could take 2nd from Latvala, it was very exciting when I saw his split time 11sec ahead of Mikko. But the Ford cars found out and response to it. I still think it was a very nice battle.

I thought it was unfair for Marcus to have Loeb running behind him and setting his pace by Marcus split and controlling, but at the sametime not go over the necesary limit. I'm not all for the new system, what I know is it's more exciting for to watch, see him pushing hard than controlling.

[Brother John]

After all - Hirvonen and Latvala are not ready to win a title. Only in 'cheaters mode'. Wish them luck. They need it.

After two days only reading on the forum, you come with this crap!
You use the word cheaters several times in your post´s!
If Ford cheating now then they have learned a lot from the French at the last years. "cheaters mode" ?
Citroën takes according to the press a Sabbath year and runs the Kronos team! "cheaters mode"?
One year later Citroën sheating the Kronos team with to give 2 crap cars for Manfred Stohl and Daniel Carlsson, End of their carreer at WRC.
Also they have taken Duval´s future. "cheaters mode" ?
Do they have treated Daniel Sordo honestly since he is at the team where everything turns araund Loeb?
And this time I say nothing concerning the tyres which Citroën had of another French company.
The word "cheaters" is for this still too good.
Become awake and learn about "modern bussiness".
Do you still think that WRC is a sport?

[Daniel]

I'm sorry but Duval took his own future with no help from Citroen at all :laugh:

[Brother John]

I'm sorry but Duval took his own future with no help from Citroen at all :laugh:

Did he have the same technique as in the xsara from Loeb? Or was it? :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Did he have the same technique as in the xsara from Loeb? Or was it? :rolleyes:
You might not remember but Duval had a strange attraction to ditches and trees.

A few links to jog your memory :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a8h5zHHvZoU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4areBltBgDY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=03TVX_djwY8

[Brother John]

I remember Daniel, but I was speaking about "cheaters mode" Posted by Xsara Fan :s mokin:


You might not remember but Duval had a strange attraction to ditches and trees.

A few links to jog your memory :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a8h5zHHvZoU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4areBltBgDY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=03TVX_djwY8

[Daniel]

I remember Daniel, but I was speaking about "cheaters mode" Posted by Xsara Fan :s mokin:

I agree that calling Ford cheaters isn't technically correct. But he's justifiably angry at Ford and their lame tactics.

But you're completely wrong in your reply to Xsara. the only thing you've got right is the fact that there was something fishy with the cars Kronos got after Loeb was gone....

[F1boat]

Why he is angry at Ford tactics? Because his guy lost. That's all. Tactics are part of racing.

[Daniel]

Why he is angry at Ford tactics? Because his guy lost. That's all. Tactics are part of racing.

This isn't racing. And what happened this weekend wasn't cricket as we say here.....


Daniel I have been reading though your posts on this thread and others and they are all a load of crap!!!

You have a real chip on your shoulder you are a very sad man!!!!

Do be quiet Stephen :rolleyes:

You're the one with the chip on your shoulder anyway. Anytime Loeb does well you go and have a cry about it. If Mikko and Latvala had won from the front I'd be the first to come and say how well they did. I've never ONCE seen you say a good thing about Loeb or Citroen. You're just too much of a sore loser to ever say anything good about them.

[ConfusedOne]

Why he is angry at Ford tactics? Because his guy lost. That's all. Tactics are part of racing.

I agree, in fact I can't think of many sports where tactics isn't a part of being successful. I am surprised that there has been so much ranting and raving, even Loeb admitted that he would have done the same if he was in that position.

[TG]

Many of you seems to thing that sweeping is not a problem in Finland Rally.
You must have forgetten how Kankkunen, Sainz and some others slowed down at the end of the SSS in 90's. (Don't remember exact year).
That's why they are now deciding road positions before SSS.

[Daniel]

I agree, in fact I can't think of many sports where tactics isn't a part of being successful. I am surprised that there has been so much ranting and raving, even Loeb admitted that he would have done the same if he was in that position.

It's not the fact that tactics were used. It was the sort of tactics. Using a supposedly (but clearly not) independant team to further their results is playing dirty. If this happened in F1 and Torro Rosso caused difficulty for a competitor of Red Bull Racing there would be severe penalties levied against both teams.

I have no problem with team orders and tactics per se. As long as they stay within the team. Team orders between teams I can't stand and if the FIA chose to penalise both teams strongly I would support that all the way.

[TG]

I have no problem with team orders and tactics per se. As long as they stay within the team. Team orders between teams I can't stand and if the FIA chose to penalise both teams strongly I would support that all the way.

Is there any proof that there were orders between those two teams?
I don't believe Galli wanted to sweep the roads either. And Henning didn't even had splits, so I thing he just drove as fast as he could.


And you can't start to penalize teams when you just assume, you need to prove it. (And ofcourse change the rules first)

[Daniel]

Is there any proof that there were orders between those two teams?
I don't believe Galli wanted to sweep the roads either. And Henning didn't even had splits, so I thing he just drove as fast as he could.


And you can't start to penalize teams when you just assume, you need to prove it. (And ofcourse change the rules first)
Henning didn't need splits. If you know your rivals time and know how much time you need to lose as well as when you started the stage then you don't need splits.

It's obvious to anyone that the Stobart guys were in on it as well. The Ford guys conveniently dropped enough time so the Stobart guys wouldn't have any problem slotting in in front of them.

[AndyRAC]

While I don't like what happened - no rules were broken, Ford played the system - fair play to them. However, consider that there are 3 Ford teams - BP/Abu Dhabi, Stobart & Munchis - there is certainly the possibility of co-operation between them. Is this wrong? Is it against the rules? To be honest I don't think anything illegal has taken place, just maybe 'against the spirit' of sport.
Heads must be banged together and sorted out before next year. It doesn't look good, and makes the WRC look 'contrived'.

[Daniel]

While I don't like what happened - no rules were broken, Ford played the system - fair play to them. However, consider that there are 3 Ford teams - BP/Abu Dhabi, Stobart & Munchis - there is certainly the possibility of co-operation between them. Is this wrong? Is it against the rules? To be honest I don't think anything illegal has taken place, just maybe 'against the spirit' of sport.
Heads must be banged together and sorted out before next year. It doesn't look good, and makes the WRC look 'contrived'.
Well there is precedence for this sort of thing.

Ford had an air storage tank on the Escort which stored excess air which had come through the restrictor and put it back into the engine when needed. Not strictly against the rules but against the spirit of the rules and it was quickly banned. This should be sorted out before Finland and they shouldn't leave it till next year.

I think it's very sad that people on here don't seem to respect the spirit of the rules.

[TG]

It's obvious to anyone that the Stobart guys were in on it as well. The Ford guys conveniently dropped enough time so the Stobart guys wouldn't have any problem slotting in in front of them.

Hat off for Henning then. It's not easy task to finish special stage with speed at exact second!
And then again, Galli should have been in front of Latvala also, did he made a mistake?

Unless proven otherwise, I believe Galli (or his team) did tactics for himself and not for anybody else. And Henning just drove.

[Finni]

They only swept 1 stage and Sebastien was in 3rd. On day 2 Mikko was 5th on the road and Latvala was 4th also. The Fords had more of an advantage over more stages with more mileage.

Yes Ford boys had more advantage by road position and they used it effectively. Have I said anything else? My point was that in Sunday morning Hirvonen and Latvala were actually better than Loeb in 30 km ss despite the fact that they were sweeping - especially Hirvonen surprised me as he had considerable disadvantage to Loeb at that point.

[Daniel]

Yes Ford boys had more advantage by road position and they used it effectively. Have I said anything else? My point was that in Sunday morning Hirvonen and Latvala were actually better than Loeb in 30 km ss despite the fact that they were sweeping - especially Hirvonen surprised me as he had considerable disadvantage to Loeb at that point.
Hirvonen wasn't faster than Loeb over the first pass on the stage.

[TG]

Hirvonen wasn't faster than Loeb over the first pass on the stage.

Hirvonen really surprized me as well.

Nobody has said he was faster than Loeb, but given that Mikko stalled the engine in the start (ok, driver error, nerves perhaps), he didn't lose much.

Very impressive effort while driving first on the road!

[Xsara Fan]

After two days only reading on the forum, you come with this crap!

Hm... is it necessary to wrote many posts during all 3 days?


You use the word cheaters several times in your post´s!

Yea, I know.


If Ford cheating now then they have learned a lot from the French at the last years.

OH MY GOD!!! What are you talking about? Tell me please, I don`t know anything!


Citroën takes according to the press a Sabbath year and runs the Kronos team!

And what?


One year later Citroën sheating the Kronos team with to give 2 crap cars for Manfred Stohl and Daniel Carlsson, End of their carreer at WRC.

Take a look at Villagra, Perez Companc, Wilson, Clark results this year. How many podiums or points they have? May be they must drive better?


Also they have taken Duval´s future.

You don`t understand anything in WRC!


Do they have treated Daniel Sordo honestly since he is at the team where everything turns araund Loeb?

Sordo always fast in tarmac. Tell me, when Citroen stops him? And now let`s talk about JML & Hirvo in Sardinia...


And this time I say nothing concerning the tyres which Citroën had of another French company.

Again. You don`t understand anything in WRC!

But! I can give you some more ‘cheaters’ stuff about Citroen. They use tactics in 98-99 with Bugalski & Magaud in French championship, in 99 with Bugalski & Puras in Tour de Corse and also in rally-raids.

But it`s a HISTORY of rallying. For the moment, in modern rally MALCOLM WILSON is the man, who open the Pandora`s box of cheating.

[Finni]

Hirvonen wasn't faster than Loeb over the first pass on the stage.

Hirvonen stalled at the start line and lost 9 second by his own word. After that he was at the same pace with Latvala and Loeb - despite having worsest position. I didin't say that Mikko was the "fastest"..but the best over that crucial stage.

[Camelopard]

Oh dear xsara fan, this really is sad. Please tell me and everyone else how Ford cheated during the recent Rally of Turkey.

The only team that I know of who were cheating recently

were...................... Toyota!

By the way they got caught, like cheats should..

".......History of Citroen, Peugeot & Toyota in rallying

Unfortunately citroen are a one horse team, if they were serious about wining the Manufacturers Championship they would have had a few other cars with decent drivers backing them up. But it seems that they are only interested in the Drivers Championship. Maybe we will see a change for the tarmac rallies, anyone else think that the Panizzi brothers may make a come back. Any other tarmac specialists out there without a drive?

At least Ford realised that they were never going to beat Loeb head to head, so they reasoned that they had to come up with other tactics that gave them them the best chance within the rules......., nothing illegal about that. Maybe if Subaru were a bit more competive things would be different.

Whilst I'm on my highhorse, we should be grateful to Ford for entering 3 teams, at least this means that there is a decent entry list of WRC cars rather than just 8.

[N.O.T]

Maybe we will see a change for the tarmac rallies, anyone else think that the Panizzi brothers may make a come back. Any other tarmac specialists out there without a drive?

welcome to 5 years ago.......panizzi cannot even win in tarmac village events nowadays......

[Camelopard]

welcome to 5 years ago.......panizzi cannot even win in tarmac village events nowadays......

Maybe not win, but he may take a minor position and therefore stop Ford drivers from getting points, name some other tarmac specialists that aren't taken. Of course citroen could always ask Carlos to drive for them again......

[Roy]

@ Xsara Fan: One word came in to my mind when I read your posts: Sauer.Yyou are sourish. Think of your health.

[COD]

For the moment, in modern rally MALCOLM WILSON is the man, who open the Pandora`s box of cheating.

Didn't You read Loebs comments: He said he would have done exactly the same, had he had the chance. So stop whining

[Xsara Fan]

The only team that I know of who were cheating recently were...................... Toyota!

Yes, I agree with you. Toyota made a huge trick. And why you are talking about my website? I don`t understand. It`s a HISTORY site and not NONCHEATERS site :)


At least Ford realised that they were never going to beat Loeb head to head

GREAT WORDS! Let`s stop our discussion.

[Xsara Fan]

Didn't You read Loebs comments: He said he would have done exactly the same, had he had the chance. So stop whining

In 2003 I was the first who blame Frequelen for stop Loeb during Wales GB rally. It`s not important who start to made it.

[Xsara Fan]

@ Xsara Fan: One word came in to my mind when I read your posts: Sauer.Yyou are sourish. Think of your health.

Thank you, I`m fine.

[Camelopard]

Unfortunately citroen are a one horse team, if they were serious about wining the Manufacturers Championship they would have had a few other cars with decent drivers backing them up.

Whoops, sorry I forgot that they have Rautencrash backing up Loeb and Sordo as their star reserve driver. :p

[Gard]

Didn't You read Loebs comments: He said he would have done exactly the same, had he had the chance. So stop whining
Agree and mentioning cheaters, Ford isn't the first brand coming to mind...

[Camelopard]

And why you are talking about my website? I don`t understand. It`s a HISTORY site and not NONCHEATERS site :)


Exactly, you are saying it's a noncheaters site, yet you include Toyota, who were BANNED for cheating............................ :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Xsara Fan]

Whoops, sorry I forgot that they have Rautencrash backing up Loeb and Sordo as their star reserve driver. :p

Next year, when Loeb, Sordo, Ogier, Aava and Aigner will be in top 5, plz don`t say anything like: "Oh! It`s cheating when there are 3 Citroen teams".

[Xsara Fan]

Exactly, you are saying it's a noncheaters site, yet you include Toyota, who were BANNED for cheating............................ :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

When did I said 'I have a noncheaters website'?????????????????

[Camelopard]

When did I said 'I have a noncheaters website'?????????????????

Yes I just realised I missed a 'non' so I deleted my post.

[Camelopard]

Next year, when Loeb, Sordo, Ogier, Aava and Aigner will be in top 5, plz don`t say anything like: "Oh! It`s cheating when there are 3 Citroen teams".

Citroen obviously have the budget to run 3 teams, if only they had the b*lls to do so, that would be great for the sport, however as I said before they are a one horse team, only interested in making Loeb Drivers Champion.

[cali]

There was no cheating, Ford did everything legally. But ofcourse it is against the spirit of sports (fair play). Rules are to blame, not Ford and M. Wilson. But then again we can see much more interesting 2nd half of the season.

[A.F.F.]

Many of you seems to thing that sweeping is not a problem in Finland Rally.
You must have forgetten how Kankkunen, Sainz and some others slowed down at the end of the SSS in 90's. (Don't remember exact year).
That's why they are now deciding road positions before SSS.

I have not forgetten the late 90's or the early 90's. Have you forgetten what has happened since?

Past ten years they have driven flat out right from the start. NORF is a rally where tenth of seconds count and equals as lightyears. Pretty much no chance of giving time for free, not to mention anyone would have it spare. No, I honestly think when it comes to NORF, the only tactic is maximum attack.

Anyways, in Finland, Mikko is in a position where he can't make tactics, pretty much like Loeb last weekend. If Loeb or Latvala have the balls to give any won seconds away, then, be my guest. It is a fact there are 8 stages on saturday which are driven only once. So, in terms of sweeping, that's more than we have used to see. However, how much there are loose gravel is another fact plus factor-x, the possible rain which automaticly gives the advantage to the first on road...

Naah.. NORF can be won by first car on the road if you're qualified. No tactics there. :D

[TG]

Have you forgetten what has happened since?
.....
Naah.. NORF can be won by first car on the road if you're qualified. No tactics there. :D

I haven't forgotten past years either.

Offcouse marginals are much smaller in Finland.
But if it has been dry several days before rally and it still is. And if the leader has only few seconds lead before last proper stage of the day, and if he is in position to play tactics, he propably will.

Lot of ifs, I know, but still plausible. We will see.

Sure thing is that nobody will give 10 second lead away, it must be smaller.

[panno4ka]

rally of turkey
FOTO (http://project-t3.kiev.ua/thumbnails.php?album=101)

[ProRally]

rally of turkey
FOTO (http://project-t3.kiev.ua/thumbnails.php?album=101)

Really very nice pictures, keep them comming

[panno4ka]

Really very nice pictures, keep them comming

thanks :)
it is my first wrc event

[N.O.T]

Citroen obviously have the budget to run 3 teams, if only they had the b*lls to do so, that would be great for the sport, however as I said before they are a one horse team, only interested in making Loeb Drivers Champion.

Yes Citroen a multi billion euro company embark to the world rally scene to make Loeb champion (maybe he is their CEO).....and they don't care about the manufacturers championship..... plus the reason they don;t have 2 satellite teams which they could use to conquer everything its not the lack of budget but the lack of balls......

Are you stupid ???

[Xsara Fan]

Let`s talk about future.
In NZ the leader of the championship will again has problems with cleaning. Agree?
What will Ford guys do in Germany?
In Finland they could win. If Hirvonen win, Latvala take a second place and Loeb will be third they`ll have 69, 42 and 62 points.
Will Hirvonen stop at the finish of the ADAC rally or what?

[N.O.T]

Let`s talk about future.
In NZ the leader of the championship will again has problems with cleaning. Agree?
What will Ford guys do in Germany?
In Finland they could win. If Hirvonen win, Latvala take a second place and Loeb will be third they`ll have 69, 42 and 62 points.
Will Hirvonen stop at the finish of the ADAC rally or what?

In NZ half the times is raining...plus its a drivers event so i think hirvonen has no chance there to be ahead of Loeb. In Finland i doubt that both Latvala and Hirvonen will finish the event....Loeb can also win there as well...last year Hirvonen managed to be ahead of him because he had good road position following the lines of real drivers like Gronholm and Loeb.

In tarmac events Loeb will win with hands in his pockets and sordo if he keeps it cool he will be easily second....Malcom will only have to worry about the stobart Duval to slow him down to let the scared kids pass. Like the lancia team boss slowed Kankkunen to let the fraud driver Biasion take wins.

[White Sauron]

Like the lancia team boss slowed Kankkunen to let the fraud driver Biasion take wins.

Champions can't be fraud. They are champions. Winners can't be "cheated". They are winners.If you just can't acknowledge this, then the scared dog is you and your fellow xsara fan. Accept the only truth in this REAL world: if you triumph, then you deserve it!

[jparker]

I think nobody paid attention at COD's post about Loeb's comment. Here it's again:

"Everybody is talking about the tactics - it would be nice to talk about the speed. Something is a bit wrong in my view. In this rally, Ford played it well and we lost. It is normal."
It's not about tactics, it's about not being able to fight back. It's not normal to have tyres that dont last 30km agresive driving.

[BDunnell]

Past ten years they have driven flat out right from the start. NORF is a rally where tenth of seconds count and equals as lightyears. Pretty much no chance of giving time for free, not to mention anyone would have it spare. No, I honestly think when it comes to NORF, the only tactic is maximum attack.

I think that's been the case on the 1000 Lakes since before even the early 1990s. As one of the few 'sprint' events of the Group B era, relatively speaking, drivers always had to push hard from the start.

[Brother John]

I am tired of it to nag concerning tactics.
Tactics or no tactics, as a supporter of the Finnish drivers in WRC, according to me, it will be difficult to see a Finn at the highest place of the podium in Finland this year.
Maybe will be 2008 the year for Loeb in Finland.
You must be no supporter of a driver to have respect for its performances.
If he wins certainly he deserved it.
If you are a supporter of someone do not means that he is the bests and there are also others that can win.
I read here many, if, if, as, as, as. Just wait and see what will happen in the following rallies.
After one rally the complete championship can look entirely differently. :s mokin:

[Woodeye]

I don't understand this crying about cheating at all. The thing is called "tactics" and it has been part of almost any sport as long as there has been sports. Get over it is my advice.

[Xsara Fan]

I don't understand this crying about cheating at all. The thing is called "tactics" and it has been part of almost any sport as long as there has been sports. Get over it is my advice.

Great, but don`t call WRC 'boring' when next year in Turkey all cars from top 10 will stop before the finish of the last stage of the first day. 'Tactics is great'...

[Abarth]

I do not think people here are crying of the fact that Ford are using the current rules to their advantage, but more the fact that the rules were changed back this year, and we now see the result - and we do not like what we see !!!

It is as stupid as that F1 races is being won or lost in the depot !

It has nothing to do with car racing !!!

[Woodeye]

Great, but don`t call WRC 'boring' when next year in Turkey all cars from top 10 will stop before the finish of the last stage of the first day. 'Tactics is great'...

If all the cars would stop, that would be exciting... ;)

[A.F.F.]

In Finland i doubt that both Latvala and Hirvonen will finish the event....Loeb can also win there as well...last year Hirvonen managed to be ahead of him because he had good road position following the lines of real drivers like Gronholm and Loeb.


:laugh:

Hilarious.

[Daniel]

I don't understand this crying about cheating at all. The thing is called "tactics" and it has been part of almost any sport as long as there has been sports. Get over it is my advice.
You should go to Africa and say that to some starving people.

"It's called starvation and it's been part of life in Africa for a while now. Get over it"

Just because something has "always" been like that doesn't mean you need to be happy about it or get over it.

[Roy]

Other rally of Turkey news: First female victory in FSTi.
http://www.m-sport.co.uk/news/392

[DonJippo]

You should go to Africa and say that to some starving people.

"It's called starvation and it's been part of life in Africa for a while now. Get over it"

Just because something has "always" been like that doesn't mean you need to be happy about it or get over it.

Surely starvation is a bit more serious issue than tactics in rallying? Anyway I'm sharing Woodeye's view to this, tactics has been and will always be part of rallying like any other sport. Depending of the rules it has different forms but it's always there...

[Daniel]

Surely starvation is a bit more serious issue than tactics in rallying? Anyway I'm sharing Woodeye's view to this, tactics has been and will always be part of rallying like any other sport. Depending of the rules it has different forms but it's always there...
Of course. I was just using as an example. I agree that it's always been a part of the sport. But I don't see that as a reason why it should continue like this. I also don't think it's ever been done in such a blatant way by using cars from a different team......

[DonJippo]

I also don't think it's ever been done in such a blatant way by using cars from a different team......

Do you have any other reason to believe this was the case other than Stobart uses Ford cars? Any other evidence they did it solely because instructions from M-sport and not because they also wanted to avoid being first on the road on Saturday?

[AndyRAC]

Fortunately, the WRC has such a low profile, that hardly anybody is outraged in the press/media to kick up a stink, so it can carry on in the next dry Gravel events.
Imagine a similar occurence in F1 - The Championship leader starting from the back, as punishment for being successful, I'm sure something would be said.

[N.O.T]

Do you have any other reason to believe this was the case other than Stobart uses Ford cars? Any other evidence they did it solely because instructions from M-sport and not because they also wanted to avoid being first on the road on Saturday?

and by a miracle they fell above the ford official dogs and not behind them (they could fall behind them since they were running later and had the splits of the official fords)

[DonJippo]

and by a miracle they fell above the ford official dogs and not behind them

They were mixed as far as I can remember.

[N.O.T]

mixed ?? Hirvonen who is the only contender for the title was 4th behind all 3 fords !!!

[Woodeye]

You should go to Africa and say that to some starving people.

"It's called starvation and it's been part of life in Africa for a while now. Get over it"

Just because something has "always" been like that doesn't mean you need to be happy about it or get over it.

That's about the most stupid comparison ever made. Congrats. :up:

[DonJippo]

mixed ?? Hirvonen who is the only contender for the title was 4th behind all 3 fords !!!

I understood you were criticizing Ford using tactics for the benefit of whole team against Citroen but now it seems your criticism is caused by Ford using tactics for the benefit of Hirvonen against Loeb.

[N.O.T]

I understood you were criticizing Ford using tactics for the benefit of whole team against Citroen but now it seems your criticism is caused by Ford using tactics for the benefit of Hirvonen against Loeb.

well the main target was Loeb....Sordo was out of contention already.....so no benefit for the manu title.

[Viking]

and by a miracle they fell above the ford official dogs and not behind them (they could fall behind them since they were running later and had the splits of the official fords)

The funny thing is that someone forgot or did not care (because he was to far behind) telling Henning about it, so he drove flat out just to make up some of the time he had lost. It would not have been so clever if he had ended up 1sec in front of Loeb instead of behind :D

[playmo]

i wonder if the situation were the opposite, 4 citroens trying to slow down "just" 1 ford, who would be complaining/protesting, and who justifying/deffending? (both in the teams and over here)...
Everything has 2 sides (duality principle) and i think that most people here is in favour of the tactics applied by Mr. W. just beacuse it has brught up a little excitement to the c'ship, that otherwise we ALL know WHO would win; one wrong doing that is making a lot of people happy! i'm totally up for it, who else is in?

[WRC1]

hi

here are my pictures from kemer:

http://www.rallyepics.at/bilder/rallye2008/15tuerkeirallye/

hope you like them

reg

wrc1

[Helstar]

That's about the most stupid comparison ever made. Congrats. :up:
Agree

[CABAIO E'LONA]

hi

here are my pictures from kemer:

http://www.rallyepics.at/bilder/rallye2008/15tuerkeirallye/

hope you like them

reg

wrc1

good pictures!

[ste898]

You should go to Africa and say that to some starving people.

"It's called starvation and it's been part of life in Africa for a while now. Get over it"

Just because something has "always" been like that doesn't mean you need to be happy about it or get over it.


More utter crap from Daniel.....where do you get it all from !!!

[TMorel]

Right, come on then.... all those that have been complaining, what responses have you had?

You HAVE written to Citroën, M-Sport and the FIA haven't you? You've been going on for days so if it's bugged you that much you're bound to have actually done something about it surely?

I've not had an actual response from any of the three above yet, but I still made the time to contact them to let them know as a fan I think they need to get together and come up with a better rule.

[Kamikaze]

More utter crap from Daniel.....where do you get it all from !!!

maybe a sick brain ?

[Sulland]

http://bilder.vgb.no/19403/4col/img_4853b08631d79.jpg

Half a tire for sale !

Strange that the whole thing splits in the middle !

[COD]

The funny thing is that someone forgot or did not care (because he was to far behind) telling Henning about it, so he drove flat out just to make up some of the time he had lost. It would not have been so clever if he had ended up 1sec in front of Loeb instead of behind :D

He was just happy to be so high up once in his career, that's why he didn't slow down. Good for his sponsors, made sure he will get paid to drive another year or two...

[Daniel]

maybe a sick brain ?

Seriously if you can't say something nice about someone then **** off.


That's about the most stupid comparison ever made. Congrats. :up:

It's called a comparison because it doesn't need to be exactly the same.

You say it's always been the same and I showed an example of something that's always been the way it is as well.

[gloomyDAY]

You should go to Africa and say that to some starving people.

"It's called starvation and it's been part of life in Africa for a while now. Get over it"

Just because something has "always" been like that doesn't mean you need to be happy about it or get over it.Danny, that's asenine.

What do starving kids have to do with the WRC?

I agree with you that the rule over road position is silly. The problem is that I'm having a hard time taking a lot of posts you write seriously because of all the vitriol. Here in Rally Turkey we see what can happen in NZ and GB. I don't like it one bit! It may not be cheating, but it is still a joke.

[Daniel]

Danny, that's asenine.

What do starving kids have to do with the WRC?

I agree with you that the rule over road position is silly. The problem is that I'm having a hard time taking a lot of posts you write seriously because of all the vitriol. Here in Rally Turkey we see what can happen in NZ and GB. I don't like it one bit! It may not be cheating, but it is still a joke.
It's called an example for gods sake. I didn't say that the plight of starving children was the same as road position in the WRC. I said that saying "Oh it's always been like that" when something needs to be done about it is the same attitude.

[gloomyDAY]

http://bilder.vgb.no/19403/4col/img_4853b08631d79.jpg

Half a tire for sale !

Strange that the whole thing splits in the middle !
I'm sure Pirelli are going to fix this immediately....once the engineers are done with their naps.

[gloomyDAY]

It's called an example for gods sake. I didn't say that the plight of starving children was the same as road position in the WRC. I said that saying "Oh it's always been like that" when something needs to be done about it is the same attitude.Doesn't make the comment any less ridiculous. :dozey:

Keep it in context.

[Daniel]

Doesn't make the comment any less ridiculous. :dozey:

Keep it in context.
What? Context doesn't matter in this case.

It's exactly the same. The attitude is the same. The only difference is that the issue is different.

[Daniel]

I'm sure Pirelli are going to fix this immediately....once the engineers are done with their naps.

I said this sort of thing would happen when Pirelli were announced as the contract winners but well you know no one listened :laugh:

[gloomyDAY]

What? Context doesn't matter in this case.

It's exactly the same. The attitude is the same. The only difference is that the issue is different.Sorry. No one is buying the example. Yes, it is profoundly out of context and you cannot draw a single parallel.


I said this sort of thing would happen when Pirelli were announced as the contract winners but well you know no one listened :laugh: Good! At least I made someone laugh.

[Daniel]

Sorry. No one is buying the example. Yes, it is profoundly out of context and you cannot draw a single parallel.

Errr.

Parallel number 1.
African Kids starving. It's not fair and something can be done about it.
Fastest drivers penalised. It's not fair and something can be done about it.

I do believe that's called a parallel.

Therefore

http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/01/22/you_fail.jpg

[Kamikaze]

Seriously if you can't say something nice about someone then **** off.

OK, then i will say you are a nice a......e :D

Seriiously, i never see any one write so much bs in so short time before.

Congratiulations !!

[A.F.F.]

Right, come on then.... all those that have been complaining, what responses have you had?

You HAVE written to Citroën, M-Sport and the FIA haven't you? You've been going on for days so if it's bugged you that much you're bound to have actually done something about it surely?

I've not had an actual response from any of the three above yet, but I still made the time to contact them to let them know as a fan I think they need to get together and come up with a better rule.

Actually to FIA, yes I have. :up:

But no response yet.

[DonJippo]

Errr.

Parallel number 1.
African Kids starving. It's not fair and something can be done about it.
Fastest drivers penalised. It's not fair and something can be done about it.

I do believe that's called a parallel.

Therefore

http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/01/22/you_fail.jpg

Daniel when do you understand to stop this? You are only making fool out of yourself with this...

[bluuford]

Errr.

Parallel number 1.
African Kids starving. It's not fair and something can be done about it.
Fastest drivers penalised. It's not fair and something can be done about it.

I do believe that's called a parallel.

Therefore

http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/01/22/you_fail.jpg

Actually it is not very good parallel. I dont know what can be done related to starving African kids. You cannot bring them food. If you do so, then there will be more kids and more food is needed and if there are more kids then in near future there will be even more kids who need even more food.. So, it is complicated problem.

But what about road position? I don't see problem there. I really, really, really like the current system and tactics and all those thing. Winner has been always the one who drives fast when it is needed. He needs to be smart as well. I dont like the reverse order. It gives so huge margins to the leaders that even if someone in top 4-5 has puncture.. nothing happens. time caps can be mesured with calendar:-(

But if someone still decides to change the system.. My offer is that top five should be first on the road, but the their starting order will be decided using cast lots. So, weaker drivers wont be so far behind and I think that no one have enough balls to stay out of top 5 after the day one without knowing in which place the leader will be :-)
What do you guys think about the offer?

[Fernischumi]

Review of the Rally of Turkey

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=dlbC4ra76Bg

[bowler]

What? Context doesn't matter in this case.

It's exactly the same. The attitude is the same. The only difference is that the issue is different.

when you are in a hole son, stop digging

[Daniel]

Actually it is not very good parallel. I dont know what can be done related to starving African kids. You cannot bring them food. If you do so, then there will be more kids and more food is needed and if there are more kids then in near future there will be even more kids who need even more food.. So, it is complicated problem.

But what about road position? I don't see problem there. I really, really, really like the current system and tactics and all those thing. Winner has been always the one who drives fast when it is needed. He needs to be smart as well. I dont like the reverse order. It gives so huge margins to the leaders that even if someone in top 4-5 has puncture.. nothing happens. time caps can be mesured with calendar:-(

But if someone still decides to change the system.. My offer is that top five should be first on the road, but the their starting order will be decided using cast lots. So, weaker drivers wont be so far behind and I think that no one have enough balls to stay out of top 5 after the day one without knowing in which place the leader will be :-)
What do you guys think about the offer?

I think that's better than the way it is now. I fail to see how anyone can see the championship leader being penalised moreso than others as being acceptable. I really don't think the championship standings or rally results would be much different to the way they are now if we still went with the reverse order rules. Marcus and Sebastien were always at each others throats in terms of speed last year and Mikko and Latvala are not all that far behind.

Of course the solution to hunger in Africa is not as simple as the FIA going back to the way things were before. But people can make a difference. I'll start a new thread for ideas to solve world hunger if anyone wants to talk about that :p

[Daniel]

Daniel when do you understand to stop this? You are only making fool out of yourself with this...
It annoys me so much when rules like this make a mockery of our sport and turn it into a game.

If it were Latvala or Hirvonen being disadvantaged because they were the best I wonder if you'd be saying the same things.

When it comes to the end of the year Loeb will probably still be on top. So in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter much I guess. But what if we come to a few years down the line and it's young Latvala's year and he drives a season full of flawless rallies but gets beaten because someone plays the game better? I personally think that would suck balls. Not because he's my favourite/least favourite, because he drives a ford/citroen/subaru/trabant, because he's Finnish/French/Mongolian/Abyssinian or because he's got 30 titles or none. The best driver should win as long as his equipment is up to the job and he makes the least amount of mistakes. It's a drivers title. Not a title for guys who drive at 70% for a couple of days and then 100% for the last day or so. This is a sport, not a game.

Like someone mentioned before it just makes it appear even more and more contrived.

[bluuford]

Daniel is little bit right.
Here are comparisons of time differences between leader and 6th place, 8th place and 10th place in 2007 and 2008.
There were actually quite big differences in Sardegna ( +3 and +6 minutes in 2007). the difference is not significant in greece but we have to take into acount also the fact that quite a lot of stages were cancelled in greece last year.

here are the results:


2007-Sardegna top 6) 5:02 and top 8) 9:31 top 10) 16:19
2007-Greece top 6) 6:31 and top 8) 8:56 top 10) 10:39
2008-Sardegna top 6) 5:08 and top 8) 6:21 top 10) 9:41
2008-Greece top 6) 6:11 and top 8) 9:14 top 10) 13:29

[ConfusedOne]

Errr.


Fastest drivers penalised. It's not fair and something can be done about it.



I think people should be a bit careful about what they wish for.
Can anyone please tell me how many national championships have anything other than the standard starting order (fastest first), because I don't think there are many (any?).
It seems a majority on the forum are against changes which they see as being made to accomodate the media, but to me it appears that all the changes to start order were made exactly for that purpose.
Going back to the current system would to me appear to be a return to pure rallying as a sport, something which I am somewhat fervently in favour of regardless of who wins.

[Roy]

Review of the Rally of Turkey

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=dlbC4ra76Bg

This is the reason why we watch rally. People please stop this debate or make a new thread, so I have to read. Thank you.

[Gard]

Let the drivers decide their running order. According to their position in the rally.

[Daniel]

Let the drivers decide their running order. According to their position in the rally.

We had that and it worked well in the past. Makes too much sense though so it was dropped.....

[ConfusedOne]

We had that and it worked well in the past. Makes too much sense though so it was dropped.....

Isnt deciding your start position a blatant use of TACTICS

[Daniel]

Isnt deciding your start position a blatant use of TACTICS

Yes. Funny that. But the great thing is it REWARDS you for doing well rather than PUNISHING you. I have nothing against tactics. As long as they encourage drivers to drive as fast as possible. Imagine a batter to be first to choose your position at the end of the day rather than a battle to slow down :laugh: Man that would be weird. Rally drivers actually driving flat out. I bet no one would watch such a sport.

[ConfusedOne]

Yes. Funny that. But the great thing is it REWARDS you for doing well rather than PUNISHING you. I have nothing against tactics. As long as they encourage drivers to drive as fast as possible. Imagine a batter to be first to choose your position at the end of the day rather than a battle to slow down :laugh: Man that would be weird. Rally drivers actually driving flat out. I bet no one would watch such a sport.

I thought this had been covered before. what it actually does is take ALL the presure off the fastest driver, they can drive to the splits and keep just ahead for the whole rally. You are right, man that makes for exciting driving!!

I would much rather see the fastest driver earn their position by showing his/her skill, than win by reward.

[Daniel]

I thought this had been covered before. what it actually does is take ALL the presure off the fastest driver, they can drive to the splits and keep just ahead for the whole rally. You are right, man that makes for exciting driving!!

I would much rather see the fastest driver earn their position by showing his/her skill, than win by reward.
Loeb hasn't shown skill in the last 4 seasons to win 4 straight titles? I agree a driver driving on the splits spoils it somewhat but I think we just need to be rid of splits. What good are they actually?

[N.O.T]

I thought this had been covered before. what it actually does is take ALL the presure off the fastest driver, they can drive to the splits and keep just ahead for the whole rally. You are right, man that makes for exciting driving!!

I would much rather see the fastest driver earn their position by showing his/her skill, than win by reward.

you trully are a confused one....

[Daniel]

I would much rather see the fastest driver earn their position by showing his/her skill, than win by reward.

I should also point out that if the top 15 is reversed the top 10 drivers will be driving on fairly even roads so you'll get to see who really is the best. It wasn't like last year Gronholm found it uber-hard to match Loeb on gravel. They were driving in fairly equal conditions and the competition on gravel was pretty good and fairly even with Marcus having a fairly healthy advantage. Perhaps the difference is Mikko and Latvala. Mikko doesn't really look like he'll ever be legend material like KKK, Sainz, Auriol, Colin, Marcus and the rest and Latvala is getting there. Loeb has a guaranteed 30 points from the tarmac rounds and will consistently gather points while the two Ford drivers have problems so by the end of Rally GB I doubt Ford's monkeying about will win them anything that looks like a drivers title.

[ConfusedOne]

Loeb has a guaranteed 30 points from the tarmac rounds and will consistently gather points while the two Ford drivers have problems so by the end of Rally GB I doubt Ford's monkeying about will win them anything that looks like a drivers title.

And that is precisely why nothing needs to be changed! "Slower" drivers (/cars/teams) may get lucky occasionally through the use of tactics and good on them, I think that improves the overall spectacle, but overall a better driver/car/team will win the championship beacuse they have the best package. Tactics are far from being guaranteed to work.

[Tomi]

If all the cars would stop, that would be exciting... ;)

Better not stop, there might come some woodeye and drive in your back.

[Tomi]

Next year, when Loeb, Sordo, Ogier, Aava and Aigner will be in top 5, plz don`t say anything like: "Oh! It`s cheating when there are 3 Citroen teams".

Is this 3 citroen teams a fact or a wet dream or just your typical nonsece.

[jonkka]

Actually it is not very good parallel.

Perhaps not the best one but good nonetheless.

The comparison was about "that something has been so in the past does not mean it has to be so in the future". A past wrong doesn't justify a future wrong.

Instead, you start solving the problem in the example used as parallel?! :eek:

[jonkka]

We had that and it worked well in the past. Makes too much sense though so it was dropped.....

Only once, in Australia 2001. Colin McRae was late from nomination meeting so he got the only road position left available (1st on the road). Ford got Delecour start the stages early and sweep for Colin. Until Delecour went off violently.

Using that system would be perfect for getting drivers in the running order they want but it would still force someone running at disadvantaged position. The problem is sweeping, running order is just a way to shift the disadvantage between the drivers. So, if the real problem is what's wanted solved focus on sweeping and not road order. How to get level playing field for all drivers (instead of just top three)?

[Woodeye]

Parallel number 1.
African Kids starving. It's not fair and something can be done about it.
Fastest drivers penalised. It's not fair and something can be done about it.

You just shouldn't compare these things. Period. It's just plain stupid. The other issue is not fair and people are dying because of that. The other is issue is not killing anyone as far as I know.

[tmx]

I think they should incorporate the dungeon and dragon dice. Random from computer or actual from a machine, each driver roll and number and that number is his starting position for that day.

I was watching Dave's review and Neil Cole gave Sebastian a broom. Haha!

[Xsara Fan]

Is this 3 citroen teams a fact or a wet dream or just your typical nonsece.

'Typical nonsence'? Funny! I thought that 'typical nonsence' is when Turkey "winner" Hirvonen said after the rally: "It feels very special to beat a four-time world champion in a straight fight". HAHAHA! He really think that he beat Loeb in straight fight?????

[Daniel]

'Typical nonsence'? Funny! I thought that 'typical nonsence' is when Acropolis "winner" Hirvonen said after the Greece rally: "It feels very special to beat a four-time world champion in a straight fight". HAHAHA! He really think that he beat Loeb in straight fight?????
You mean Turkey obviously :)

[AlfaWRC]

'Typical nonsence'? Funny! I thought that 'typical nonsence' is when Acropolis "winner" Hirvonen said after the Greece rally: "It feels very special to beat a four-time world champion in a straight fight". HAHAHA! He really think that he beat Loeb in straight fight?????

Still angry?!?!

PS: I think eigther that he can beat Loeb in a straight fight...
PPS: Mikko did unfortunately not win Acropolis...

[Xsara Fan]

Still angry?!?!

PS: I think eigther that he can beat Loeb in a straight fight...
PPS: Mikko did unfortunately not win Acropolis...

Why angry? I said 'funny'.
P.S.: No, he can`t. Marcus can. Mikko & JML not. May be in 2010-2011.

[Xsara Fan]

You mean Turkey obviously :)

Thanks friend. Edited my post.

[Daniel]

You just shouldn't compare these things. Period. It's just plain stupid. The other issue is not fair and people are dying because of that. The other is issue is not killing anyone as far as I know.

I do believe your countryman explained it just fine. Just because something was wrong in the past doesn't mean it has to be wrong now.

Thanks Jonkka for explaining it :up:

I also think that randomising things is a better way than the way it currently is. Anything is better than a system which intentionally disadvantages the championship leader.

P.S Jonkka. Colin was there at the nomination meeting. I saw it with my own two eyes. It was Connelly's brain that was late for the meeting :)

[Karukera]

Indeed, it's not a 'straight' win. It could have been a 'straight' win if they hadn't acted like scared urban pussies on day One.

I'm sure it will emerge one day from the Ford guys that Turkey day 3 stages were different than the previous days, rough and bulk but with no such sweeping.

Tire wear shows that and Loeb said it on his website : He started to bag lots of seconds but then the tires rapidly started to fail and he and Latvala couldn't gain any significant time as shown by the splits.

The nature of the soil was known from the Recce, that's why the Ford played it tactics on Friday but not on Satruday, they thought they could capitalize on a 3 dozens of seconds lead which proved to be right, well done.

Well sure, some idiots will cry for excuses but it's not Loeb's habit to use them, so everyone makes his own opinion.

Reality is, Hirvonen would'nt have won without tactics.

So to me it's just another picking up the circumstances win by Hirvonen, facts are there. He has one convincing win to date and it's in Norway.

What i mean is that Hirvonen can beat Loeb on a straight fight, and it's on snow and in Finland but he's not that fast yet in, say, Argentina or NZ without tactics, not even mention a tarmac rally.

At the end of the day i'm pleased, the forum is buoyed by this rally and it's a welcome change from the usual mourning moods of lots of people when Loeb wins a rally.

It's also refreshing for the championship because nothing compares to Loeb hunting for a Finn. :s tare:

[Xsara Fan]

Indeed, it's not a 'straight' win. It could have been a 'straight' win if they hadn't acted like scared urban pussies on day One.

I'm sure it will emerge one day from the Ford guys that Turkey day 3 stages were different than the previous days, rough and bulk but with no such sweeping.

Tire wear shows that and Loeb said it on his website : He started to bag lots of seconds but then the tires rapidly started to fail and he and Latvala couldn't gain any significant time as shown by the splits.

The nature of the soil was known from the Recce, that's why the Ford played it tactics on Friday but not on Satruday, they thought they could capitalize on a 3 dozens of seconds lead which proved to be right, well done.

Well sure, some idiots will cry for excuses but it's not Loeb's habit to use them, so everyone makes his own opinion.

Reality is, Hirvonen would'nt have won without tactics.

So to me it's just another picking up the circumstances win by Hirvonen, facts are there. He has one convincing win to date and it's in Norway.

What i mean is that Hirvonen can beat Loeb on a straight fight, and it's on snow and in Finland but he's not that fast yet in, say, Argentina or NZ without tactics, not even mention a tarmac rally.

At the end of the day i'm pleased, the forum is buoyed by this rally and it's a welcome change from the usual mourning moods of lots of people when Loeb wins a rally.

It's also refreshing for the championship because nothing compares to Loeb hunting for a Finn. :s tare:

Great post! :)

[MJW]

Motorsport News in UK today publish the tirade (bordering on racism) from Olivier Quensel where initially he refused to speak to the journalist because he was English, he went on to say that English are cheats etc.

[AndyRAC]

Motorsport News in UK today publish the tirade (bordering on racism) from Olivier Quensel where initially he refused to speak to the journalist because he was English, he went on to say that English are cheats etc.

While I disagree with the tactics/rules etc, Quesnel is out of order. Ford just played by the rules, maybe Citroen should enter a few more works cars. His tirade should be at the F1A, they brought the rule in, not Ford.

[DonJippo]

It annoys me so much when rules like this make a mockery of our sport and turn it into a game.

If it were Latvala or Hirvonen being disadvantaged because they were the best I wonder if you'd be saying the same things.

When it comes to the end of the year Loeb will probably still be on top. So in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter much I guess. But what if we come to a few years down the line and it's young Latvala's year and he drives a season full of flawless rallies but gets beaten because someone plays the game better? I personally think that would suck balls. Not because he's my favourite/least favourite, because he drives a ford/citroen/subaru/trabant, because he's Finnish/French/Mongolian/Abyssinian or because he's got 30 titles or none. The best driver should win as long as his equipment is up to the job and he makes the least amount of mistakes. It's a drivers title. Not a title for guys who drive at 70% for a couple of days and then 100% for the last day or so. This is a sport, not a game.

Like someone mentioned before it just makes it appear even more and more contrived.

I was actually meaning your comments about the comparison of yours but let’s leave that behind of us as that is not really the issue and let’s discuss about the tactics here.

Tactics are part of every sport so why would it not be part of rallying? I have always liked the possibility that you can beat the stronger opponent with tactics, I see this as total package in which tactics has as important role as any other contributing factor to the overall result. In the past this was hidden from the bigger audience due to the fact that back then there was no live timing or/and splits available, all we had was finish times for competitors on stages and therefore tactics were not as visible as with today’s live timing and splits but it was there.

For me this sudden burst by people is somewhat surprising not only because of the history but as since the day one when this rule for road position was changed back to the old format it was clear to me we will see tactics used to gain better road position, it would be just a matter of right moment to use it rather than if it will be used. Makes me think if it is more about who was the victim of Ford tactics rather than tactics itself, atleast don’t remember this much shouting after Jordan when Sordo was the target? A bit OT but was funny to notice from incar footage in Jordan when JML came near the finish of stage 9 and was slowing down they noticed close to finish line that Sordo had slowed his pace as well after last split and almost got them with his move.

For those who think others than Ford won’t use tactics I say you are wrong. Everyone will use it for their own benefit when they have the possibility for it, you don’t run 30milj€ team and let your opponent take the title without trying all you can within the rules. Will be intresting to see who and when sees the opportunity and will decide to use tactics next time and what the result of it is going to be. Atleast this time in Turkey it really worked in Ford’s favour giving them 1-2 victory, which I’m sure off would not have been the case without tactics.

[jonkka]

Motorsport News in UK today publish the tirade (bordering on racism) from Olivier Quensel where initially he refused to speak to the journalist because he was English, he went on to say that English are cheats etc.

Even if Olivier said and meant everything he allegedly has said, world really could go on just fine without knowing any of that. But sadly, these days only scandals and shocking sell and life is all about selling, apparently... :(

[JAM]

Anyone knows how exactly happened the accident of Bernardo Sousa from PWRC, where he hit a spectator at the beggining of 2dn leg?

[Daniel]

Anyone knows how exactly happened the accident of Bernardo Sousa from PWRC, where he hit a spectator at the beggining of 2dn leg?
I heard that it was a rock thrown by his car that hit a spectator. But this could be just something the voices in my head said to me or it could be what happened.

[Daniel]

I was actually meaning your comments about the comparison of yours but let’s leave that behind of us as that is not really the issue and let’s discuss about the tactics here.

Tactics are part of every sport so why would it not be part of rallying? I have always liked the possibility that you can beat the stronger opponent with tactics, I see this as total package in which tactics has as important role as any other contributing factor to the overall result. In the past this was hidden from the bigger audience due to the fact that back then there was no live timing or/and splits available, all we had was finish times for competitors on stages and therefore tactics were not as visible as with today’s live timing and splits but it was there.

For me this sudden burst by people is somewhat surprising not only because of the history but as since the day one when this rule for road position was changed back to the old format it was clear to me we will see tactics used to gain better road position, it would be just a matter of right moment to use it rather than if it will be used. Makes me think if it is more about who was the victim of Ford tactics rather than tactics itself, atleast don’t remember this much shouting after Jordan when Sordo was the target? A bit OT but was funny to notice from incar footage in Jordan when JML came near the finish of stage 9 and was slowing down they noticed close to finish line that Sordo had slowed his pace as well after last split and almost got them with his move.

For those who think others than Ford won’t use tactics I say you are wrong. Everyone will use it for their own benefit when they have the possibility for it, you don’t run 30milj€ team and let your opponent take the title without trying all you can within the rules. Will be intresting to see who and when sees the opportunity and will decide to use tactics next time and what the result of it is going to be. Atleast this time in Turkey it really worked in Ford’s favour giving them 1-2 victory, which I’m sure off would not have been the case without tactics.

Of course others would use the tactics. But like they say "two wrongs don't make a right" ;)

I still don't get how this year's road rules are better than the ones we had last year? Sure we're having a close battle. But didn't we have a really close battle last year without the top drvers being disadvantaged? The only difference is Gronholm is gone and his two replacements are not as good as he was just yet. I thought last year was great. Two legends fighting for the title and neither of them was ever disadvantaged. They just went at it 100%. Now we've got drivers fighting NOT to be the fastest. What a show! :rolleyes: Perhaps FIFA should introduce a rule that the team that is in front at half time should play with one less player or with no goalie to make things a bit more even and make for surprising results. I wonder if you'd see teams fighting to build up a lead before half time and if they didn't have a sufficient lead they'd fight to score as many own goals as possible. Wouldn't that be grand!

You are also probably right about live timing and splits making these tactics a bit more visible. But in the past there was a great variety of events and cars were different from each other. It used to be that one car would do well on the Safari and other rough events, another would be good on tarmac and perhaps another car did well on tarmac. There were also other factors like tyre choice, tyre cuts, the cars were more prone to failure, stage mileage was greater. I could go on.

At the end of the day Ford hasn't done anything against the rules as far as I can see. But lets not put our heads in the sand and pretend that the involvement of the Stobart guys wasn't carefully orchestrated and lets also not pretend that seeing guys driving at 80% on the last stage is more exciting than seeing them driving at 100%.

P.S the reason why I didn't kick up a fuss when it was Sordo was because IIRC Henning and Gigi weren't used in Jordan as they were in Turkey.

[Daniel]

Motorsport News in UK today publish the tirade (bordering on racism) from Olivier Quensel where initially he refused to speak to the journalist because he was English, he went on to say that English are cheats etc.
Lets be fair to the guy. We all get angry and we say things we don't mean. I'm sure by the time Finland comes around it will all be forgotten and nothing more will be said.

What gets me is that they could have possibly won without all these tactics. If they had then I would have said it was one hell of a drive from Hirvonen or Latvala but this victory proves nothing about how good they are drivers compared to Loeb. In my mind Loeb drove a far better rally considering the road conditions.

[N.O.T]

What gets me is that they could have possibly won without all these tactics.

No....they never demnstrated they have the skills to do it so far in the season.

[DonJippo]

No....they never demnstrated they have the skills to do it so far in the season.

Ah so Sweden was also Ford's tactics?

[White Sauron]

And one more thing. You shouldn't forget, that even due to special tactics, the decision to lose the lead, lose 15-25 seconds is BRAVE. Don't forget it's rallying, you never know what will happen tomorrow. One puncture, one mistake, and Ford's tactics could have led them to some lower places, not like if they were in the lead. Losing time, even aimed at tactics, is never easy for any driver, and it's not an easier challenge then sweeping roads. just my 2 cents

[Daniel]

And one more thing. You shouldn't forget, that even due to special tactics, the decision to lose the lead, lose 15-25 seconds is BRAVE. Don't forget it's rallying, you never know what will happen tomorrow. One puncture, one mistake, and Ford's tactics could have led them to some lower places, not like if they were in the lead. Losing time, even aimed at tactics, is never easy for any driver, and it's not an easier challenge then sweeping roads. just my 2 cents
Yes because taking the easy way out is brave.

[N.O.T]

Ah so Sweden was also Ford's tactics?

Loeb completed 3 stages there....plus Sweden and Finland for the scared doggys is like Monte and Corsica for Loeb....

you can do better than this Don......

[N.O.T]

And one more thing. You shouldn't forget, that even due to special tactics, the decision to lose the lead, lose 15-25 seconds is BRAVE. Don't forget it's rallying, you never know what will happen tomorrow. One puncture, one mistake, and Ford's tactics could have led them to some lower places, not like if they were in the lead. Losing time, even aimed at tactics, is never easy for any driver, and it's not an easier challenge then sweeping roads. just my 2 cents

Punctures and mistakes can affect everyone...loose gravel only the leaders

[ConfusedOne]

Punctures and mistakes can affect everyone...loose gravel only the leaders

I really cannot understand how people can want to see the effect of gravel removed from the gravel rallies. Drivers, teams even some of the public must realise that gravel roads have gravel on them. It is NOT unfair to the first driver, it is a gravel rally!!!

I guess you should stick to tarmac if this upsets you.

[Daniel]

I really cannot understand how people can want to see the effect of gravel removed from the gravel rallies. Drivers, teams even some of the public must realise that gravel roads have gravel on them. It is NOT unfair to the first driver, it is a gravel rally!!!

I guess you should stick to tarmac if this upsets you.
Your name is quite appropriate :)

[DonJippo]

....plus Sweden and Finland for the scared doggys is like Monte and Corsica for Loeb....

You never fail to use this get away nonsense...it may have slipped out of your mind but he has won the event in the past so come back with something more clever than this one ;)

[DonJippo]

Your name is quite appropriate :)

I think he made a very relevant question there, no reasons to be a smartass over someone's forum name.

[N.O.T]

You never fail to use this get away nonsense...it may have slipped out of your mind but he has won the event in the past so come back with something more clever than this one ;)

he won it while Gronholm retired very early.....how is it nonsense ??? every rally Loeb finished (without problems or scared dogs tactics) so far he has won it...and while Hirvonen was sweeping he was losing 1 minute per day while Loeb in turkey lost 10sec....

[ConfusedOne]

Your name is quite appropriate :)

Truthfully Daniel I chose it because I had been reading your comments on this forum for quite some time until I had to join and make some comments of my own. The name reflects the fact that your comments are the most confusing I have ever read.

[Xsara Fan]

I guess you should stick to tarmac if this upsets you.

I prefer tarmac. And I hate FIA for ban tarmac Sanremo rally.

[N.O.T]

I think he made a very relevant question there, no reasons to be a smartass over someone's forum name.

gravel is different from loose gravel.....

[ConfusedOne]

gravel is different from loose gravel.....

wet tarmac is different to dry, wet gravel is different to dry gravel, forestry roads are different to public roads, turkey is different to corsica.

Indoor tarmac might give you want you want.

[N.O.T]

wet tarmac is different to dry, wet gravel is different to dry gravel, forestry roads are different to public roads, turkey is different to corsica.

Indoor tarmac might give you want you want.

houston....we got a problem........

[sollitt]

The amazing thing for me is that those who are critical of the Ford tactics accept that they played within the rules yet are referring to them as 'cheats'.
You're either one or the other, you can't be both. So let's stop calling them cheats.

Others would suggest that they were gutless, cowardly etc ...
This would imply though that all teams which apply 'tactics' are gutless. Given that pretty much every team that's ever been involved in rallying has, at some time, applied some form of tactic this would seem a little bit silly.

Could they have won without the tactics? Who knows. The fact is they won. Get over it!

Is the rule wrong?
I agree with Daniel's sentiment that "just because something has always been done a particular way doesn't make it the best or the right way".
But, equally, sometimes tradition is sufficient justification for doing things a particular way.

We could look at any sport and find ways to make them more spectacular or more 'efficient'. But in doing so we must always consider how much we change the nature of the game.

For all but the last 10 years or so WRC events have been seeded with the expected fastest at the front working down to the likely slowest. This is still the way pretty much all other levels of rallying are run the world over.

WRC rallying today is quite different to how it was when I became involved in the early 70's. Many of the changes we bag as being unpallatable, denying us rallying as we know (knew) it.

I like the move back to traditional seeding methods and if there are tactics applied from time to time, so be it. Sometimes they'll work for the team applying them and sometimes they won't.
Learn to live with it. It's easy, I've been doing it for over 30 years and never once gotten upset by it.

Why not watch the excellent video that was posted on here and look forward to the next event.

[Camelopard]

The amazing thing for me is that those who are critical of the Ford tactics accept that they played within the rules yet are referring to them as 'cheats'.
You're either one or the other, you can't be both. So let's stop calling them cheats.

Others would suggest that they were gutless, cowardly etc ...
This would imply though that all teams which apply 'tactics' are gutless. Given that pretty much every team that's ever been involved in rallying has, at some time, applied some form of tactic this would seem a little bit silly.

Could they have won without the tactics? Who knows. The fact is they won. Get over it!

Is the rule wrong?
I agree with Daniel's sentiment that "just because something has always been done a particular way doesn't make it the best or the right way".
But, equally, sometimes tradition is sufficient justification for doing things a particular way.

We could look at any sport and find ways to make them more spectacular or more 'efficient'. But in doing so we must always consider how much we change the nature of the game.

For all but the last 10 years or so WRC events have been seeded with the expected fastest at the front working down to the likely slowest. This is still the way pretty much all other levels of rallying are run the world over.

WRC rallying today is quite different to how it was when I became involved in the early 70's. Many of the changes we bag as being unpallatable, denying us rallying as we know (knew) it.

I like the move back to traditional seeding methods and if there are tactics applied from time to time, so be it. Sometimes they'll work for the team applying them and sometimes they won't.
Learn to live with it. It's easy, I've been doing it for over 30 years and never once gotten upset by it.

Why not watch the excellent video that was posted on here and look forward to the next event.

Hey, your comments are far too rational.................. :) and I find myself agreeing with you entirely. OK, so maybe the rules need to be changed and they probably will, but regardless of what people have posted, Ford did not cheat, they used the rules to their advantage.

[Tomi]

'Typical nonsence'? Funny! I thought that 'typical nonsence' is when Turkey "winner" Hirvonen said after the rally: "It feels very special to beat a four-time world champion in a straight fight". HAHAHA! He really think that he beat Loeb in straight fight?????

I think you missed the point, is there going to be a 3rd Citroen team, and whats your sourse about it.

[DonJippo]

I prefer tarmac. And I hate FIA for ban tarmac Sanremo rally.

It's the NSA that makes the decision where in a particular country a WRC event will be held not FIA.

[Daniel]

I think he made a very relevant question there, no reasons to be a smartass over someone's forum name.

Gravel is still very different to tarmac even when the gravel is swept off. Hence why I said what i said.

[ConfusedOne]

Gravel is still very different to tarmac even when the gravel is swept off. Hence why I said what i said.

I know that Daniel, Ive competed on both (including swept and unswept gravel).