2021 - Race 19 Brazil

**The Black Knight** · 15th November 2021, 10:03

Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Actually, Mercedes have two new engines which have done less than two race cycles for Hamilton. So they have fresh engines to race the two desert races. But l am not sure they would have fresh engines for Abu Dhabi. That last race may be a critical championship defining race with Redbull and Mercedes racing engines that are not fresh. The Honda engine seems to sustain its freshness for longer than the Mercedes engine.

I am hoping that both teams and drivers arrive at Abu Dhabi level on points or as close as possible. So this last race is as exciting as the 2016 race at this venue between Rosberg and Hamilton.

I find it hard to understand how many parts they have now with X penalties. I'd actually like a chart to see exactly what parts are available. It's hard to keep track of but I think they are running a higher engine mode and that's the main reason for the performance differential.

**denkimi** · 15th November 2021, 10:38

Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

You have to take into consideration that the difference in pace is due to the relative age of the Redbull engine to the newer Mercedes engine. The effect of the 5 place penalty would differ for the different relative ages of the engines fighting at the front. If both engines were new, the effect would be more severe. As it goes, it wasn't. The Mercedes engine was newer than the Redbull.

I don't believe it's the actual age of the engine that makes the big difference. As posted here before, the difference should be only 0,2s or so over the course of their lifetime. What we've seen here was closer to a second per lap.

I believe the fact that engines normally have to last 7 to 8 races, and this one only 4 allows them to run them much higher in power.

**Nitrodaze** · 15th November 2021, 12:12

Originally Posted by denkimi

I don't believe it's the actual age of the engine that makes the big difference. As posted here before, the difference should be only 0,2s or so over the course of their lifetime. What we've seen here was closer to a second per lap.

I believe the fact that engines normally have to last 7 to 8 races, and this one only 4 allows them to run them much higher in power.

Of course, it is not engine alone. There is the new device on the Mercedes car and DRS combined that helped produce that pace we were talking about. I doubt Mercedes would have turned the power up to its max redline output. They still need these new engines to be reasonably fresh for the last three races.

**Nitrodaze** · 15th November 2021, 12:15

Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I find it hard to understand how many parts they have now with X penalties. I'd actually like a chart to see exactly what parts are available. It's hard to keep track of but I think they are running a higher engine mode and that's the main reason for the performance differential.

They have been quite smart actually. Building up a stock of partially used engines to have them when they need them at the end of the season. They would have at least two fresh engines each to put in the cars for the last three races. At this point, it is too costly to take an engine penalty. I suspect all teams would be running to the end of the season with their current stock of engines. Unless they have an unexpected engine failure.

**Nitrodaze** · 15th November 2021, 12:25

Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I don't think engine modes are banned, you just have to use the same mode between qualifying and race day.

Engine modes are definitely banned. Check this out

The days of Qualifying engine mode, race engine mode and overtaking engine mode was banned since the 2020 regulations l believe. All cars must run one engine mode all weekend.

But what are engine modes?

Qualifying modes - labelled 'party modes' after a nickname coined by Mercedes - make available extra engine revs and the ability to run without harvesting power and diverting it to the battery, thereby allowing maximum deployment of energy recovered via the two energy recovery systems. These modes also typically run more aggressive ignition timing and fuel mixture.

Race mode - will allow adequate harvesting to keep the battery supplied with energy that can be deployed through the lap – without draining the battery and thereby compromising the following lap. It will also typically run lower maximum revs than the qualifying mode and a setting of ignition timing that keeps the valves and piston crowns at a safer temperature.
[ these definitions are courtesy of F1.com]

What is not banned in the engine mapping used. Teams are allowed to use a prefered engine mapping for a race weekend. The engine mapping may limit the max output of the [ICE] engine for the race weekend. I suspect what teams cannot do is vary the mapping during various stages of the weekend l understand.

**ouvreur** · 15th November 2021, 13:18

The article explains it pretty clearly.

"The new Technical Directive will require the power unit to be run in the same single mode during qualifying and race."

It's just the teams' ability to turn the engines up higher for qualifying / key phases of the race that's been curtailed. Previously, teams had multiple different modes to choose from. They can do what they want and switch between them as often as they like in free practice, and likely do so to determine which is the best compromise for the rest of the meeting - but they have to pick a mode for both qualifying and the race, and stick to it. So, if Mercedes choose to run in a more aggressive power mode in qualifying and the race, that's fine. They would just be stuck in it all the time.

There is still an overtake button, to deploy more electrical energy, as could be seen and heard explained this weekend when Hamilton was trying to pass Perez - the Red Bull was using maximum electrical energy on the pit straight to fend off the Mercedes, leaving it more vulnerable on the back straight after the Senna S.

**Zico** · 15th November 2021, 13:38

Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Of course, it is not engine alone. There is the new device on the Mercedes car and DRS combined that helped produce that pace we were talking about.

I think so too... which is likely to be especially effective on tracks with particularly long straights as we have in Brazil...

"The series of left turns from the exit of "Junção" all the way to Turn 1 is typically taken at full throttle and treated as a long straight. This section is one of the longest full-throttle stretches on the Formula 1 calendar, and thus demanding of the engine's reliability. Other notable stretches of this nature are the "Rettifilo Tribune" straight at Autodromo Nazionale di Monza and the Kemmel Straight at Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps."

Anyone know how the remaining circuits left compare in that regard?

**Nitrodaze** · 15th November 2021, 13:42

Originally Posted by ouvreur

The article explains it pretty clearly.

"The new Technical Directive will require the power unit to be run in the same single mode during qualifying and race."

It's just the teams' ability to turn the engines up higher for qualifying / key phases of the race that's been curtailed. Previously, teams had multiple different modes to choose from. They can do what they want and switch between them as often as they like in free practice, and likely do so to determine which is the best compromise for the rest of the meeting - but they have to pick a mode for both qualifying and the race, and stick to it. So, if Mercedes choose to run in a more aggressive power mode in qualifying and the race, that's fine. They would just be stuck in it all the time.

There is still an overtake button, to deploy more electrical energy, as could be seen and heard explained this weekend when Hamilton was trying to pass Perez - the Red Bull was using maximum electrical energy on the pit straight to fend off the Mercedes, leaving it more vulnerable on the back straight after the Senna S.

That's correct, the power boost from the electric motor is not banned. It has always been a defensive tool to drivers during the race to counteract the DRS of attacking cars. It is not classed as an engine mode per se.

**Nitrodaze** · 15th November 2021, 13:45

Originally Posted by Zico

I think so too... which is likely to be especially effective on tracks with particularly long straights as we have in Brazil...

"The series of left turns from the exit of "Junção" all the way to Turn 1 is typically taken at full throttle and treated as a long straight. This section is one of the longest full-throttle stretches on the Formula 1 calendar, and thus demanding of the engine's reliability. Other notable stretches of this nature are the "Rettifilo Tribune" straight at Autodromo Nazionale di Monza and the Kemmel Straight at Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps."

Anyone know how the remaining circuits left compare in that regard?

Qatar has almost a mile long straight which would suit the Mercedes perfectly. Jeddah street circuit is like the fast twisties of Brazil which would be taken at full-throttle, l believe. This would suit the Mercedes as well.

**Firstgear** · 15th November 2021, 14:06

Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

This is that element of Verstappen's likeness to Schumacher l was referring to. The determination to do whatever it takes to win, including taking out the opposition in the process of winning. It is very dangerous both to himself and the targeted driver. It is also a clear notice to the future generation of drivers that would be racing with him in the sharp end of the grid. That to beat him, they must be ready to risk all to beat him.

So is this something you admire, or dislike about him? Seems to me you've expressed admiration for MS in the past.
I think you know where I stand on this.