Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

**Mirek** · 8th January 2021, 16:31

Originally Posted by Tarmop

But ofc it is. This has lasted already for a while and is going to get worse. I was saying that full EV is not going to happen, probably ever.
Thinking about motorsports and probably the next step in production vehicles Audi`s idea of an "EV" with a TFSI generaator comes into mind.

In the post, you reacted to, I didn't speak about EV but about the automotive industry taking a path which is very unsuitable for the current homologation rules.

**Tarmop** · 8th January 2021, 16:59

I didn`t react to your post.

**pantealex** · 8th January 2021, 19:03

Originally Posted by Tarmop

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the populaar models are available in 4wd?

In Finland both BMW and MB sell more FWD than RWD cars (mostly because bigger models are sold AWD) Most of Tesla´s are sold AWD.

**mknight** · 8th January 2021, 19:36

Originally Posted by Rallyper

As many said, we have to adapt.

Adapting could mean no liasons. But stages like before. Of course cars people can buy. However that "autocross, alien" thing can be used on WRC17 cars as well.

Originally Posted by Mirek

The thing with the stock-based cars is actually the simples of all. Majority of cars coming in the stock market in the future will be useless for conversion into rallycars therefore rallying will have to take the prototype way. There is no other choice.

Since start of WRC rules the top rally cars have very little in common with normal cars. But they still look like them from the outside (with some tuning kit).

Which is my point. Even a "shell" with spaceframe inside is more of a rally car for me than a buggy with single or in-line seating that runs stock engine and components.

As an example when I watched ROC some time back with Loeb etc. the buggys just simple were too "alien", while the touring car Megane which had nothing in common with stock on the inside felt more right.

Originally Posted by Tarmop

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the populaar models are available in 4wd?

Petrol/diesel RWD cars are a very small minority of sales. Even BMW left them with 2 series and then with new 1 series.

But you know very well what my comment was aiming at. Some people in UK claim that the only "real rallying" is NA RWD Escorts from 1970s, similarly some people in Scandinavia only count RWD Volvo 240s and similar as real rallying.

Back to your original trolling response there are modern RWD rally cars as you know. Going from Porsches over Aston Martin, Nissan 350Z and Fiat 124 to the modern Alpine. They indeed do count as rally cars for me, but they have one thing in common... they are hopelessly outclassed by 4WD cars on any rallies that are not on tarmac.

**Tarmop** · 8th January 2021, 20:02

That is true yes, on slippery surfaces there is no match for the AWD.
But they do market well for a certain group of people... though probably also without rallying.

**Rallyper** · 9th January 2021, 12:20

Originally Posted by mknight

Since start of WRC rules the top rally cars have very little in common with normal cars. But they still look like them from the outside (with some tuning kit).

Which is my point. Even a "shell" with spaceframe inside is more of a rally car for me than a buggy with single or in-line seating that runs stock engine and components.

As an example when I watched ROC some time back with Loeb etc. the buggys just simple were too "alien", while the touring car Megane which had nothing in common with stock on the inside felt more right.

I never talked about buggys either. But rallies with non-homologated cars, looking or coming from street cars, maybe without liasons, is very much in the tube for the future.

**Rally Power** · 10th January 2021, 16:16

Originally Posted by denkimi

The forced need for manufacturers aproval has been holding the sport back for many years now. Without that rule, we could have seen many private firms operating their own cars, just like ik most other motorsports.

Spot on.

Once current manus were in favor of having full protos (without any link to the industrial production, apart a silhouette body) from 2022, what’s the reason to keep private tuners unable to develop, build and run WRC cars?

Even if it’d be hard to find sponsors eager to fund top private tuners on a complete WRC program (probably only Red Bull or a middle-east country), opening Rally1 to private tuners would be a smart way to boost the series, fully justifying the rules move towards space frame chassis.

**Rally Power** · 10th January 2021, 16:23

Originally Posted by AnttiL

The difference between rallying and most other motorsports is that rally cars must be street legal. I'm sure that has something to do with keeping the manufacturers in the homologation process. Not sure though how they apply that to the scaled down tubular chassis of the 2022 cars...

It’s possible to have street legal protos, as it happens on Rally-Raid series (which also use open public roads as liaisons). Rally homologations are a manus monopoly because one of the established rules is to have the cars built from a mass production model, which only manus are able to provide. At the moment that rule is fundamentally changed (like it’ll be from 2022) there’s little room to keep manus homologation monopoly, at least in Rally1 case.

**TheFlyingTuga** · 10th January 2021, 21:35

Yeah, it's a monopoly because it works. Without manufacturers baking and know how behind no one would be able to do a competitive car. And yes, I know that some buggies in the Dakar manage to do some good results, but in the end Toyota or Mini will dominate. As all cars made by Manus dominate in WTCR, GT3 or any other category

**NickRally** · 10th January 2021, 23:29

Originally Posted by Tarmop

But ofc it is. This has lasted already for a while and is going to get worse. I was saying that full EV is not going to happen, probably ever.
Thinking about motorsports and probably the next step in production vehicles Audi`s idea of an "EV" with a TFSI generaator comes into mind.

I guess you are referring to this:

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...ar-rally-13440

In my view this is a very cunning arrangement, it keeps the EV enthusiasts happy while providing as much range as the engineers choose to design in. In any case, efficiency of this drivetrain will not be worse than pure electric drive train and electricity produced in a modern coal power plant. They can play with battery capacity so that it can still be called a BEV (in the eyes of the EV supporters), but overall energy source weight, i.e. batteries plus combustion engine, electric generator and fuel tank, is kept in check. All in all, Audi may once again be the rally(raid) groundbreakers as they were with 4WD. They can claim (irrespective if true or false), that as battery technology develops, the role of the combustion engine is gradually reduced in this series hybrid drivetrain. As I said, very cunning in my mind.

On the other subject, I fully agree with all of you that suggested FIA should drop the requirement for homologation coming from the manufacturers. It is correct that the profile of the series depends on them being present, but the entries can be boosted by private companies preparing cars on their own. Again, as it was mentioned, nothing to prevent these cars being road legal. And although finding the budgets to undertake such projects is not easy, companies whose bread and butter depends on it, will find a way.