Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

[Fast Eddie WRC]

all of these, Citroen did for a decade.Nothing new.Plenty of money,proffesionalism,cars fast out of the box,dominating etc

If Citroen were so great for so long that makes what VW did to them all the more impressive.

[AnttiL]

If Citroen were so great for so long that makes what VW did to them all the more impressive.

It helped that certain a Citroen driver quit his career.

[tommeke_B]

Also VW came in 2013 with their car, after a long development program, and learning from pro and cons from already existing cars. Citroën and Ford had their cars homologated in 2011, with limited options for modifications afterwards, while VW arrived with things they could not implement/change anymore (as they only had some jokers to spend). It's not like with the current generation where all started at the same time and have equal possibilities for further development. Next year we could see a repeat of this story when Toyota arrives with their new WRCar.

[Rally Power]

Audi dominated the rallies when they had 4WD and others didn't, but the cars were too unreliable (and hard to service in the African rallies). Right when other teams came out with 4WD cars, Audi started to fall behind.

Audi’s major problem was the board refusal to allow a radical change in the Quattro layout, by creating a more balanced central engine proto; it was considered to distant from the brand production standards. The story about the efforts of the rally staff to build the central engine Quattro can be read in the notable ‘Rally Gr.B Shrine’ site: https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-...02-gr-s-proto/

[AnttiL]

Audi’s major problem was the board refusal to allow a radical change in the Quattro layout, by creating a more balanced central engine proto; it was considered to distant from the brand production standards. The story about the efforts of the rally staff to build the central engine Quattro can be read in the notable ‘Rally Gr.B Shrine’ site: https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-...02-gr-s-proto/

Yes, and the team even secretly developed a mid-engine Quattro

[doubled1978]

Yes, and the team even secretly developed a mid-engine Quattro

I’ve read this article a while ago, and it’s a great story....the competition department and engineers knew what they needed to beat the Peugeot/Lancia, and despite knowing deep down they would almost certainly never be allowed to compete with the mid-engine car, they went and built them anyway, for themselves basically...I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the Audi board found out what they had been doing!
It’s such a shame that none of those mid engine sport quattros survived....

[AnttiL]

I’ve read this article a while ago, and it’s a great story....the competition department and engineers knew what they needed to beat the Peugeot/Lancia, and despite knowing deep down they would almost certainly never be allowed to compete with the mid-engine car, they went and built them anyway, for themselves basically...I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the Audi board found out what they had been doing!
It’s such a shame that none of those mid engine sport quattros survived....

Only the futuristic Group S proto survived and was driven in Goodwood recently by Mikkola

[AndyRAC]

It’s fair to say that until the mid 10’s there were still sporty models in the Citroen range and some of those were even converted into low or mid budget rally cars (ZX, Saxo, C2, DS3) but after that it was a bit painful to see Citroen WRC effort getting so disconnected from their general production.

What happened to Citroen, and their range of sporty cars? One of the greatest wastes of a successful motorsport programme I can recall. I remember the mid/late 90s - and Citroen did have a few decent 'performance' cars; ZX 16V, the Saxo VTS/VTR, Xsara VTS/VTR. In fact I nearly bought a Saxo VTS in 1998, but opted for a Seat Ibiza GTi.
Since then apart from the DS3 Racing, its been largely forgettable - with the 'by Loeb' cars an utter travesty. I do remember a quote from Citroen UK saying they didn't wish to use motorsport in their marketing.......(from the time when it was rumoured they might help with funding for McRae in 2004)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Here in the Uk the Saxo VTR/VTS were massively popular. I had a modified VTS and it was fantastic fun and cheap to run. I did track days with it and there were dozens of them around with many hugely modified. They were the car to have for the young enthusiast.

Citroen could've capitalised even more with Loeb's WRC success but dropped the ball with the C2 which just looked so wrong that no-one wanted one.

Nowadays they are heavily promoting the comfort and relaxed drive of their cars. I dont know how a WRC C3 ever got funding at all.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Let's do a comparison table

Number of events - now 14, then you could only count 7 best from 12-13.
Length of an event - now 300-350 km, then 500-1000 km (and then the African rallies were something else)
Number of tyres allowed - now 32 per rally per car, in two compounds - back then you could change all tyres after every stage, in unlimited types and compounds.
Number of services - roughly two hours per day, back then a quick service between every stage
Type of service - now persistent service park with lots of buildings that take days to put up and tear down, back then the service vans ran after the rally cars
Recce length - now 2 days, back then unlimited, typically several weeks
Testing days - now basically one day per driver per rally, back then teams had dedicated test drivers doing long test periods and tyres had to be tested separately
Limited parts - Only three engines per season is now allowed - back then no limits.

the list goes on...

Fascinating interview with Derek Dauncey of Mitsubishi on the Safari Rally in 1996. Amazing in every way compared to modern WRC.

(Plus the Hong-Kong - Beijing Rally and eating rat in their Wuhan hotel !!)

https://www.dirtfish.com/archive/pod...his-wrc-heyday