Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodaze View Post
There is no doubt about it, Schaumacher was a controvercial multiple world champion. Yes he would do whatever it takes to win, including crashing into opponents and any dirty tricks he can get away with. This is the reason why Hill is not a multiple world champion. He was super fast but lacked Schumachers killer instinct. These are traits that you see in the very best on the grid. They hate losing, winning is everything.

We saw it when Prost crashed into Senna to win the championship and when Senna returned the favour to himself win the championship. There isn't one multiple world champion without some form of chequered past, if you look closely enough. Be it Alonso or Vettel or Hamilton 2016 as Rosberg squirmed through the Abu Dhabi race that sealed his only drivers world championship.

Winning world championships is not an easy affair. And not all drivers on the grid have the particular skill to do it. Those that do are few and far between and are usually very special. They usually are unapologetically singleminded about winning.

I think it is a load of crap to say any driver on the grid could have won the same titles given the same chances. If that were the case, Massa would have been world Champion. He was good enough to be world champion but it eluded him. So was Irvine, Webber, Coultard to name a few. All of these guys were super fast and had access to championship winning cars but could not convert the opportunity into a single driver's title. Also, Nico Rosberg would have had more than one title to his name.

I have to say, it is plain stupid to say the multiple world champion were lucky as well. Luck had a small part to do with it, but a majority of the time, making their own luck had lots to do with their incredible achievements. Making luck is the difference between the champions and those that never win championships.

Inspite of his flaws, Schumacher's achievement is unquestionably the highest ever attained in the history of the formula. Just as Hamilton's achievement is unquestably the most impressive in the current era of F1 racing. They are not just another racer to be raced, they are the guy any racer must beat to attain any semblance of respect. The question is always going to be; "Who did you beat". Hakkinen and Alonso can always say l beat Schumacher which gave them instant credibility. Vettel would say l beat Alonso, Hamilton, Raikonenn and Button. And Hamilton can say, I beat Alonso, Vettel, Raikonenn, Button and Rosberg. Each of these guys world champions.

So we should not make an incredibly hard achievement into a ridicle or trivia. Even if the champion is not to your particular liking.
I'm quoting this again, as I think you were editing it after I had quoted it, thus I missed some of the context....

I've never stated that any driver on the grid could win a WDC in the right car, I'm just of the strong opinion that as often as not (if not more) the car is at least 50-60% of the equation. We've seen multiple instances of WDC drivers that struggle in average or even above average cars. If they themselves (and not the car/driver combination) were the primary factor in WDC standings, we would have examples of WDC drivers in cars that were down in the WCC standings quite a bit. And in any case, good car or bad, the driver must beat the other drivers on his team. By the time you factor in that, mechanical problems, status within the team, team orders, etc..... well there are quite a few times the best driver on a given day might not win the race.

As far as luck... IMHO luck is luck. Despite all the hard work that gives the upper tier drivers more options, they can make a decision that leaves them in a car that isn't going to take anyone to a WDC. Who beat who is a circular debate, as every WDC beat everyone else that year. So regardless of the driver, you still have to take their whole career into the picture to have a better gauge of where they stand among the best. Would Jenson be considered one of the GOATs if the Brawn dominance continued? By some maybe, but not by me. He beat Seb, Fernando, Lewis, Nico, and Kimi. That year, in a superior car. This doesn't mean that I don't consider him a very good or even great driver, or ridicule his title. It simply means that I view his entire career in context, just as I do with others. He even beat Lewis in the same car, but only one out of three times.

So overall, I still view the car as a big part of a drivers record. And though I openly agree that drivers must propel themselves to the upper levels, at some point luck is still just luck and not made IMHO.


The worst drivers that make it to the grid have more road racing skill than most of us will ever hope to have. Which are the very best is highly subjective, even when we realize they are all better than most of the world. But they are still humans, and in this case humans highly assisted by the hardware they are in. I'll remember the years that any driver dominated another team mate, or drove well beyond what the car seemed capable of, just as much as I'll remember the years that a team and driver walked away with titles. Alonso in that pig of a Ferrari he walked into on his return comes to mind.