New R4 Car - Think Tank

[Rally Power]

Is it? I'm not sure about that. I see R5 class living a successful and healthy live everyhere and I am not sure if R4 with the expected price and running cost can succeed because it is not a top a tier class in any championship and as such it looks too expensive to me. I'm afraid that it will only parazitize on the R5 class, i.e. making number of R5 cars slightly lower (by taking some money available in the sport away) while not adding anything significant to any championship.

I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...

The need for a 4wd entry class has been undisputed. Through R4 many importers and big dealers of brands currently not involved in rally will get the chance to join the sport, while a lot of privateers will be able to replace their aging Evo’s and Impreza’s with a interesting alternative to the used R5’s market, which in many cases wasn’t really an alternative due to R5 running costs.

To base a new category on a mandatory mechanical kit may eventually shock the purists, but it makes sense having in mind private tuners will have a major role on the class development and R4 isn’t supposed to be a leading category in national or international series.

For sure there are still some reasonable doubts on R4 future, mainly due to FIA’s inability to fix a fair price for the kit (108k seems too much for what you get) and having a single worldwide supplier (which can raise availability and even reliability issues) but, hopefully, they won’t stop R4 from being a success and provide a larger range of exciting rally cars. Fingers crossed!

[Mirek]

I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...

The battle between the manufacturers is indeed good but every time a new rules come the initial seasons are good. We have to wait few more years to judge properly. Anyway there are not only pros. The new cars are extremely difficult to run for privateers.

The need for a 4wd entry class has been undisputed. Through R4 many importers and big dealers of brands currently not involved in rally will get the chance to join the sport, while a lot of privateers will be able to replace their aging Evo’s and Impreza’s with a interesting alternative to the used R5’s market, which in many cases wasn’t really an alternative due to R5 running costs.

With the announced price and running cost the R4 can't be called an entry class at all - and they aren't an N4 replacement either (most of the teams running N4 can't run R4 for the same money). Also the argument with new importers being able to take part isn't fully valid. If the R4 were top tier class it would but I doubt many importers are interested in placing reasonable money in a project which can bring only class victories moreover in national events. Those have very low marketing value and don't justify investments.

Also - for what is an entry 4WD class needed? I can see that the way R2 -> R5 works very fine, can't You?

I understand the need of such class in some countries where R4 would basically replace (largely non-existent) R5 not run under them.

To base a new category on a mandatory mechanical kit may eventually shock the purists, but it makes sense having in mind private tuners will have a major role on the class development and R4 isn’t supposed to be a leading category in national or international series.

I have nothing against the concept itself.

For sure there are still some reasonable doubts on R4 future, mainly due to FIA’s inability to fix a fair price for the kit (108k seems too much for what you get) and having a single worldwide supplier (which can raise availability and even reliability issues) but, hopefully, they won’t stop R4 from being a success and provide a larger range of exciting rally cars. Fingers crossed!

Yes, there's a hope, I agree. Time will tell.

[mArvAlcao17]

I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...

It's shame that the privateers are no longer able to run the car purely by themselves. But on the cost side, so yeah.

[mArvAlcao17]

Biggest issue for me is the single supplier, although this allows consistency of things like safety aspects (hopefully) and scrutineering, it does nothing to increase competition and drive costs down. I just hope this isn't another RRC class that will fizzle out when the FIA comes up with another new shiny idea.

IMO there should be some freedom in certain parts like engine (tbh i'm not sure it would worked on this one) or simpler transmission (manual H shift, anyone?). No need for the sequential because it's already on R5 - but R2&R3 cars are sequential....

[Rally Power]

With the announced price and running cost the R4 can't be called an entry class at all - and they aren't an N4 replacement either (most of the teams running N4 can't run R4 for the same money). Also the argument with new importers being able to take part isn't fully valid. If the R4 were top tier class it would but I doubt many importers are interested in placing reasonable money in a project which can bring only class victories moreover in national events. Those have very low marketing value and don't justify investments.

To win overall isn’t the only motivation for manus. Ford is spending millions on the LM/WEC program and they’re only fighting for a class win at the back of the field. It’s not hard to believe that brands with no intention to develop R5 or WRC cars will allow their importers to enter into R4, as Renault and Suzuki Spain are already doing with N5 (a sort of pre R4).

Privateers may find R4 price excessive, but running costs are much lower regarding R5, which can be decisive on their car choices. Besides, to be fighting for a R4 class win can become more attractive to 2nd level teams than struggling to get into top 10 with a R5 that they can hardly maintain.

I agree R4 isn’t the cheap 4wd entry class we were hoping for; still it has lots of potential and it’ll, hopefully, help our sport to grow. That’s what mostly matters.

[Mirek]

I would not compare the situation of R4 with class win in LM/WEC. A class on the world level is uncomparable with a class on national level. It's like comparing a victory in WRC3 in Catalunya with a victory in RC4 in Rally Příbram (chosen for same date ).

[OldF]

IMO there should be some freedom in certain parts like engine (tbh i'm not sure it would worked on this one) or simpler transmission (manual H shift, anyone?). No need for the sequential because it's already on R5 - but R2&R3 cars are sequential....

The AP4 regulations gives more freedom choosing engine and other parts (and would be also closer to you ). I copied some parts from the regulations.
http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/Rally..._V2%202017.pdf


Eligible Engines (page 5)
Either a “Series Production Engine” or the “AP4 Designated Joker Engine” are authorised, under the following conditions:
4 cylinder up to a maximum capacity of 1620* cm3 (being 2754 cm3 with 1.7 forced induction coefficient applied).
Note: The bore/stroke may be adjusted to achieve the designated 1620 cm3 capacity.

At least 2500 identical engine units must have been produced in 12 consecutive months. It will be possible to count models from another manufacturer, provided that they are equipped with the same engine (strictly identical) and produced in a quantity of at least 5000 units in 12 consecutive months.

The AP4 designated engine is:
- EP6 ‘Prince’ series 1598cc turbocharged engine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_engine#1.6


Also sourcing of brakes is freer (page 17).

- Calipers / Discs (rotors) and mounting bells (hats) must be commercially available mass-produced parts from a recognised brake components manufacturer,
- All parts must come from a large scale production catalogue or from a competition parts catalogue, except the mounting brackets which may be freely sourced.


Gearbox (page 14)
Two options for a sequential gearbox (Xtrac or Sadev).

- Either a ‘production based’ series gearbox from any large scale series production Touring Car is authorised or a ‘control design part’ gearbox is authorised as detailed in PART THREE List 3 of these regulations.

- Either an ‘H’ pattern or sequential gear selection control linkage is authorised provided its operation remains solely mechanical. The gear lever shall be fixed on either the floor or the steering column and can be adjustable.

[mArvAlcao17]

Is it possible to select the parts you want to buy the R4 kit or must buy all of them?

[br21]

Is it possible to select the parts you want to buy the R4 kit or must buy all of them?

It's a "kit" so you need to buy complete to be able to build and homologate the car

[Daniel Popov]

What class are the R4's going to run in? Probably it is discussed already somewhere, but I have missed it.
They can't be in RC2, neither in RC3.