Where does Nico Rosberg go from here?

[MrJan]

Rosberg needs to get his head right, he's capable but will struggle in the same team as Lewis, just like many have before. The problem is that a) Hamilton is clearly a stronger racer when they go wheel to wheel and b) Hamilton's in his head.

As for the move and the hat incident...well the move was unfair IMO and possibly should have resulted in a 'crowding' penalty. DC often talks about "if that happened at Monaco" as a guide, and he's right. If Lewis had pulled the mirror move going in to St Devote then he'd have been penalised. And if I'd just lost a race and the WDC then I'd be pretty fucking pissed if someone threw something at me, TBH I think Nico would have been justified in giving Lewis a slap.

[The Black Knight]

"With Verstapen what I wanted to know was if it's okay, when you're next another car, you're allowed to push the other car over the kerb.Obviously he's trying to defend when I'm trying to pass on the outside. It was fine, apparently it's okay, so it was fine.
As long as everybody has the same rules it doesn't matter. You have so many rules these days in Formula One, you have rules saying you shouldn't change line under braking, you should leave the other car enough room, one car space, but you're not leaving space if you're pushing the other guy wide.
I don't complain, it's fine, but it's not fine if the next time I do it to someone else, to get penalized -- that's the issue. You can do a lot of things, depending on the person, and then someone else does the same and gets penalized -- that's not fine. I don't complain about what he did today but it should be more clear, so we know what we can do and what we can't do."

It's the very same issue .
Nico's been told it's one way .
Kimi's feels like he's being told it's both , seemingly .

Neither complained , so there's no official word , but for Kim's penalty .

Which is it ?

As henners said, there's a very, very clear difference between what happened in Sochi with Bottas and what happened with Rosberg and Hamilton. Kimi came from a large distance back and just went straight into Bottas, Lewis and Rosberg were on the side by side. Kimi was clearly at fault for what happened with Bottas and clearly Bottas could have done nothing to prevent such a banzai move. It's not as clear cut with Rosberg and Hamilton because they were both equally along side each other.

I'll try and have a look at Verstappen and Rosberg tonight and see if I can find it on my recording of the race. It's hard to comment without seeing the footage first but given Kimi's interpretation that he felt his move on Bottas was bordering on the sane I'm not holding out much hope that he's really on the right road.

[jens]

The main problem are the run-off areas. This has basically encouraged to push other drivers off and it is all viewed as okayish. If it was gravel, I'd say it is definitely NOT all right to leave other driver NO room at all and push him into the gravel. Remember, what Schumacher did to Frentzen in Canada in 1998, or many other instances. Back then it was a clear rule both cars must have room to stay within the white lines. But nowadays it has become vague due to excess amount of run-off area.

[Bagwan]

Well , where does Nico go from here ?

I would guess his next move is to go around the outside , and hold his line , to finally get an answer to his and Kimi's question .

It seems the only way to get this sorted .
You either are required to leave room or you are not .

I hope it is soon , so nobody has any doubt about what is allowed , and nobody is hurt because of this double standard .
Arguments over space at speed need clear rules .

[henners88]

Perhaps Hamilton should simply ask the question too and see if he gets let off here like Kim's has? Lewis touches wheels and puts Nico onto a run off area, resulting in him being heavily criticised here. Kimi throws a silly move up the inside of Bottas causing a nasty accident and stealing third place off the Williams driver and is treated like the voice of reason because he's asked a question? I wonder if that question would have even been asked had his incident not happened? Kimi is miffed as he was penalised, but at the end of the day he crashed heavily into another driver.

As fans we don't want to see wheel to wheel racing ended simply off the back of the more sensitive argument starters. Drivers should be able to race to the limit and bang wheels but the limit is reached when they cause an accident. It's black and white.

[Bagwan]

Kimi was asking his question about last race , not the one before .
He was being pushed out by Max , he felt .

His move the race before that was , indeed , clumsy , him sliding into the side of Bottas , but his point related to the incident because the reasoning for his having been given the penalty was that he hadn't left room for Bottas .
So , He wanted to know if it was alright or not , to have Max crowding him .

I guess being a "sensitive argument starter" isn't so bad , being that I'm in the camp with Kimi .


I would love it if Lewis asked the question and sorted this .
But , it's likely going to take an incident to get any sort of answer .

Kimi might done a really clumsy job of it a couple of races ago , but , essentially , he did what Lewis did at this past one at a little better angle .
Both ran straight into the path of the guy on the outside , with no chance of making it around at the speed at which they were going whilst taking a tighter line , thus leaving room .
Both slid into the space where there was already a car they knew was there .


A little wheel banging isn't a bad thing , but this intimidation game they're playing could get somebody hurt .

[henners88]

Then the stewards need to make it clear. Perhaps the severity of certain incidents determine the outcome of the action?

Hamilton's move on Rosberg was absolutely nothing like Kimis on Bottas in Sochi other than them being side by side at some point. Kimi crashed heavily into Bottas taking him out of the race, whereas the Mercedes drivers touched very lightly while trying to win the corner. Intimidation is part of racing and how drivers push their authority when trying to get past and win. Ask Schumacher, Alonso and even Kimi when they are in the alternative position.

[Bagwan]

Then the stewards need to make it clear. Perhaps the severity of certain incidents determine the outcome of the action?

Hamilton's move on Rosberg was absolutely nothing like Kimis on Bottas in Sochi other than them being side by side at some point. Kimi crashed heavily into Bottas taking him out of the race, whereas the Mercedes drivers touched very lightly while trying to win the corner. Intimidation is part of racing and how drivers push their authority when trying to get past and win. Ask Schumacher, Alonso and even Kimi when they are in the alternative position.

Hard to disagree with much of that , henners .
Although "side by side at some point" belittles a bit that Nico and Lewis touched wheels , which rather indicates they were right pretty much fully side by side for the event .

I think that issue that gets to me is that neither Lewis or Kimi , at the speed they were doing , could actually make the corner while leaving room for another car outside .
They both slid through , either because they misjudged the grip level inside , or that they never intended to leave room at all .

If it was grip , then it was a simple mistake if an offence at all , for Hamilton , at least .
I don't think anyone really believes it was a mistake from Lewis in that sense .

He said it was his corner because he was inside .


Intimidation has always and will always be a part of racing .


Squeezing a guy out of room when you know you aren't able to react to the possibility of him fighting back around the outside simply isn't fair .
That's what Nico is mad about .
It's the point he so clumsily tried to make in Spa last year .


It's a fight over space .
I believe that the driver should at least always be capable of leaving that space , as per the rules .
Sliding into someone is not on , as it means you have lost control , and caused a collision .

Remember , the guy outside is under control , and is right beside , with open track ahead of him if he can use his extra grip gleaned from the wider trajectory . It's his squeeze , taking the space he's allowed , to force the driver inside to slow , in order to get around the corner .
There's a risk , sure .
It's one that has drivers talking sometimes about trust , when they know they can go wheel to wheel , and sometimes go for that outside move .

I'm not saying Lewis is untrustworthy , but I am saying that not leaving room because he believes he owns the corner when he's inside is dangerous .
It's bumpercars if you know you can't make the corner .

[steveaki13]

Watch from 30 minutes on this video. The start of Imola 2004.

See Schumi & Montoya go at it into Tosa and then Montoya and Ralf along the straight.

Two examples of similar incidents. I know Montoya was furious after this.

Just as interesting things to compare. No contact but forcing others off track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXSFAn_dL7I

[Tazio]

One of my fav Shu moves, JPM punked!