[WRC] News & rumours (part III)

[stefanvv]

Don't be sorry, it's important that you try

In fact "Vamos Vocho". Something similar like "C'mon Beetle"

Vocho is the popular term for adapted VW beetle air cold

Ah, yes. I forgot something from Spanish obviously. Thank You.

[janvanvurpa]

What do you think, is it possible to cheat in a similar way in WRC cars? You know, temporary decrease the performance to the allowed limits when being tested but let the car go in full power on stages?

In both real world and rally who tests? In USA the emissions testing is what is called "self certification" which as explained to me by the Certification Engineer at Saab years ago means they send in data to US EPA and say "It does this" and that's it. Since I run a business that specialized in the Ford "Taunus" V4 which Saab used (1,5 liter for all markets from '67 thru 1980 except USA for 71 thru end or 73 when we got the "Big Block" 1,7 liter...) I asked about the use of 1,7 for the last 3 years of importation "what did you do about emissions" (the 1500 V4 was 90mm bore, and 58.6mm stroke and 9:1 compression, the 1700 was 90mm bore, same rods and 66.8 stroke and 8.0 compression...but same cam, same everything else)
In short similar stuff but really quite different, so I asked. He said "Oh we knew we're just schedule to sell those for 2-3 more years so we just sent in the same data as before..It is self certifying so why bother"

[Grundo Farb]

What do you think, is it possible to cheat in a similar way in WRC cars? You know, temporary decrease the performance to the allowed limits when being tested but let the car go in full power on stages?

My brother tells stories from the late 80's early 90's when cars would be strutineered, the restrictors measured, then they would start the road section, drive down the road to a remote service crew (in those days they had many dotted around the landscape) and have the restrictor removed/changed to a larger one.

He never told me which teams but he believed it was quite common.

[janvanvurpa]

My brother tells stories from the late 80's early 90's when cars would be strutineered, the restrictors measured, then they would start the road section, drive down the road to a remote service crew (in those days they had many dotted around the landscape) and have the restrictor removed/changed to a larger one.

He never told me which teams but he believed it was quite common.

Considering that the restrictors were paint dabbed, and drilled and wired with ether lead of tamperproof stainless seals and that scrutineers could do spot checks anywhere, anytime......

Kinda a huge risk---do you remember Toyota's 1 year ban and stripped of WRC points when their cheat was discovered? Or Fords $250,000 fine when they notified the FIA that their Sierra V6 (built by some old friends of mine) for Stig Blomqvist ran '87 Monte carlo with LH Jet-tronic Bosch injection rather than the Bosch Le they had homologated the car with (as if it made any difference---poor ol 2.8 V6 barely made 210 hp)

That said I have it very good source that during '86 season---how coincidental for the current scandal!----in the FIA Cup for 2wd WRC the VW team could--and did---change all sorts of crazy things including head and intake at last service before Final ATC, and they just happened to have a wooden case with every pain color you could think of and both lead and stainless seals..
How convenient...Said the guy watching---a notorious, well known long term "Production" class guy here in US who was outrageous in his cheating...."Damn THOSE GUYS were good, I was really impressed."

Who can say?

[itix]

And what's illegal about that? I see the same restrictor size of 34mm.....

It baffles me that you don't know the infamous Toyota cheat... They still spoke about it when I started watching rallying in the late 90s.

They built device around the mandatory restrictor that would hold the restrictor towards the turbine housing with springs. The inlet air hose was then put over the restrictor and the restrictor pulled out while hose clamps secured the restrictor in out position, thus letting more air in behind the restrictor.

If you wanted to inspect the thing, you needed to remove the hose clamps and voila, the restrictor snaps back in place via the springs and all looks well.

[makinen_fan]

It baffles me that you don't know the infamous Toyota cheat... They still spoke about it when I started watching rallying in the late 90s.

They built device around the mandatory restrictor that would hold the restrictor towards the turbine housing with springs. The inlet air hose was then put over the restrictor and the restrictor pulled out while hose clamps secured the restrictor in out position, thus letting more air in behind the restrictor.

If you wanted to inspect the thing, you needed to remove the hose clamps and voila, the restrictor snaps back in place via the springs and all looks well.

I think his comment was sarcastic

[itix]

Ah yes... Didn't consider that possibility.

[MikeD]

I don't have a definitive answer to that question... But certainly not the Germans, that's for sure.

If the mathematical equation of the car had a solution, the Germans are the closest to that solution... But cars aren't mathematics and can't be understood by calculus. All off topic I guess but I have never been a fan of the German approach.

I like the Italians and French but also some of the Japanese efforts. Korea is coming closer to something likeable.

Americans have always been too big and too brash for my taste.

China has so far only been able to give me the chuckles car wise. We'll see about the future.

I've liked Peugeot for a long time (minus the 207) due to their rally programme when I was a kid so...

Now back to WRC stuff.

Maybe the VW budget might see some slahes if there are any proactive heads in VAG group (smart group that uses the abbreviation for vagina btw) but other than that we shouldn't expect any major changes

Finally somebody other than me, who's not that impressed with german cars. I have always been into Italian and French car brands, and especially the rare sport cars.

On the matter of there will be effects on the VW motorsport programs .... trust me there will. If you follow CNBC or Bloomberg, you will get the sense of how serious this actually is ... not only for the many law suits awaiting them, but also for future earnings for the company. There is a reason that Angela Merkel is involved in this now, and that's because German carmakers, is 20% of the total German exports!!

I do think, due the the company called VW, that it's actually that brand that will be most under threat, and I do expects the VW program in the WRC to be stopped by the end of this year at the latest. The last thing they want with the VW brand is to participate in what is percieved as a poluting by the normal people. Furthermore, the VW group will actually have to look at the political interest in the company, and their stockholders more than anything. So I guess cost-cutting will be on the agenda, after the law-suits have been settles, and there is no way that the WRC program will fit into that.

[stefanvv]

Ah yes... Didn't consider that possibility.

makinen_fan was right, I was a bit ironic. Physically the restrictor is there with the same size exactly how is said in the regulations. The rest is left to the brilliant engineers to find a side door and lawyers to stretch the regulation words anyway they want. But obviously Toyota knew what they did wrong.

[Lundefaret]

My brother tells stories from the late 80's early 90's when cars would be strutineered, the restrictors measured, then they would start the road section, drive down the road to a remote service crew (in those days they had many dotted around the landscape) and have the restrictor removed/changed to a larger one.

He never told me which teams but he believed it was quite common.

Going from the "free for all" group B regulations, to the very tight Group A regulations ment heavier cars with much less power. In the hunt for hp it was done a lot of "tricks". Everything from Lancias extra air vents behind the license plate, to cheating with restrictors and turbo pressure etc. In the USA there is a lot of great stories on technical cheating in NASCAR, with the 3/4 car, the banana car, nitrous or fuel in the roll cage etc. It would be cool to get similar stories from the Group A days out in the open. Engineers are very creative, and some of their solutions to cheating is extremely clever!