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Could the 2027 WRC end up like 1981. Rothmans turning up with a determined driver (Vatanen), a proven car (the Escort Mk2) and sufficient sponsorship to do enough rounds.
What could 2027 be like? Determined driver (with a private non-manufacturer sponsor) turns up with a proven Rally2 and takes enough points to win the driver's title?
2027 - Hyundai pulls out, Toyota drivers with less powerful cars at the front lose time at gravel rallies, which lets others through on the leaderboard.
what u mean? lots of rally2/3/4 car manufacturers don't do wrc, they just sell to clients.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
True lower down, but a manuf couldn't homologate a World Rally Car or Rally1 without also entering the manufs championship. That got some manufs doing a season or two just for the paper stamp, Skoda, Suzuki, Mini...Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
WRC+ 2017- on took it further; privateers could only enter their own purchases through the corresponding manuf doing a full season.
When the car is called 'WRC2027' why wouldn't they protect the championship in a similar way? Say to a manuf, if they want to profit from the industry, they have to pay the dues.
i know, and that's why i said that, 'cause the business is not in the top tier championship now...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
manufacturers that only want a client service will stay with a "r5/rally2" business model, won't do wrc (aka top tier championship) and will sell car that can profit even with a cost cap of 350/400k. manufactures with aim in the championship (toyota, some tuners, maybe hiunday, m-sport?) will develop wrc27 car for the championship using more money than the cost cap, and probably not sell much of that (can a tuner other than m-sport support a 100+ piece business for selling? doubt it). toyota and hiunday will stay with current model, "rally2" for sale, "wrc" for top championship.
If the FIA want to shoot themselves in the foot then that is a good set up, but there's a pickle in your point. I get what you're saying about business models but Rally2 is going, to be replaced by 'WRC2027'. Nobody is buying Toyota and Hyundai Rally2s in 2033, because Rally2 won't exist. Where do those customers take their business? It's into this ultimately universal affordable car that'll go into all the championships. Possibly too, the same homologation could cover detunings and two wheel drives to replace Rallys3/4/5. Who knows, no reason why not. It's also possible to have a higher tuned WRC2027+ for WRC too, however it's not important now.
What is important, is they haven't got either the willing manufacturers or willing promoter who choose to go around the world doing 14 rounds; thus we're in this thread talking about a necessary new car for WRC.
Give them a reward for doing the WRC championship: homologation for a universal affordable rally car. Also give them a device to secure proper, business-like, investment from proper business-like funding sources: profit through that homologation. What flaw am I not seeing?
Do you just sit back and hope somebody will want to do WRC, then sit back again and hope that they can get 'sponsors' to pay for it? Meanwhile, allowing businesses to profit off your industry, selling thousands of cars and drives, snatching customers from those willing teams doing your WRC championship? OK.
i see just this flaw:Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
why manufacturers like skoda, stellantis, renault, even m-sport would give up a "flat" market like rally2 to chase the biggest manu (toyota) in competition?
the reason r5/rally2 are so successfull is because there's no manus championship there. they're not top notch competition, and brand can sell a lot -or enough- just being in the mix. it's ok to deliver a product that can win some race to clients, whitout having an official team to prove it winning championships. it just works. even old m-sport fiesta is still in the mix in erc... rally3 is the same. rally4 as well.
add a committed manu (aka toyota) for the overall win, and this levelled field will blow up. they will use all the money they have anyway. if it's not the car itself, will be test or development or communication or engineers -whatever, they ll use the money to win-. tuners like m-sport will lag behind just as now, and the privateers that now share the car market will move toward the best car and leave the others behind.
when skoda was offical team in wrc2 they dominated the market, and fabia is still the best selling car years after. yaris is rising because is made by the top manufacturer, i20 is nowhere near in term of numbers. m-sport and stellantis faded in numbers. just look at the entries everywhere.
as for top tier, i don't think a cost cap will erase this money difference. it will make it easier to enter, but will not level the field. and if you change the regulation focus from selling to winning, the market can collapse, as selling will not be that much of a reward as u think in the top tier.
i see more a top tier for officials with 3/4 manus or tuners and a second tier of client manufacturers. if u force the client one to compete on top, i fear u may lose some (skoda - reanult) on marketing/pr roi as bad results publicity will be worse than losing the client sales.
They don't have to give up any markets. They just have to contribute something by turning up to WRC. They don't have to win or beat TGR to get anything, I don't propose anything conditional on results. So they could even turn that into a marketable opportunity, sending in some willing pay drivers who pootle round as has always been the case. Might even attract some sponsorship! However, you're right, winning a WRC rally or championship is a good way to flog rally cars, so there's this incentive to push.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
But crucially for me, those types of consumer-series car names are not the future, there's no link anymore so why restrict it to them? It's why the FIA are pivoting away from and opening up rally to the motorsport companies - the tuners. Say the manufacturers championship standings could be, and the makes seen in all the national championships in 10 years time are:
1. Toyota GR
2. LifeLive
3. Prodrive
4. M-Sport
5. Paddonsport
6. Oreca
7. Lancia
8. Pastrana Subaru
9. Stohl
10. MEM
11. ....etc...
Maybe it doesn't end up working like this, or it does but is not a success. But it is a nice possibility to believe in. We're here in "WRC mainclass" so your thoughts on the success of R5/Rally2 aside, how do you get entries into the WRC mainclass? If there is a higher tuned WRC car where nobody was forced to do it, who do you realistically see willing to compete against Toyota in 2027? The promoter wants out so we can assume they don't want to back anybody, although with the cheaper cars they might. So at best it'd still be two teams chasing Toyota in the way Hyundai and M-Sport do now.
1. Toyota GR * 4/5 cars
2. M-Sport * 2 cars
3. FIA Rallystar * 2 cars
We're here now and they're wanting to get away from it. Nobody here even wants that, do they?
er. it's the same thing i was saying all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
u made a list of basically 1 manufacturer and some tuners. i was exactly saying that manufactures will not invest in this model of top championship. they will not enter for charity, for helping the series or making it more interesting for fans. for them interesting = making more money than invested (and selling car is not the point anymore, the point is all about marketing, brand visibility, reputation. sadly, rally does not have the right stats for this atm)
it's quite clear that the main idea of fia/promoter is to move the championship from manufacturers to privateers to increase the numbers, 'cause they are not able to generate enough interest in the wrc series to make big manufacturers invest money in it for -basically- marketing returns.
but rally is a sport and not an enterprise, so is totally ok to move to lower money to have more participants at the cost of leveling down the sport and the show. maybe a bit harsh for long-time fans, but ok.
that way, manufacturers will not use their name -aka brand identity, credibility, reputation- for this. they are ok with this rally2 model in which they sell car to others but not compete directly. if u force them into first-hand competition, they'll leave. That's the market that's giving up. And that's why we don't have any news about the new pyramid for '27 on, cause they're looking for a solution to not disrupt regional rally with the new wrc reg. why they did not simply go to rally2 for '27? because manus said no. hiunday + toyota to not lose "eliteness" for the brand. skoda, stellantis, renault to not enter this competition market.
wrc need a mainclass that is attractive in term of selling tv shows, selling merchandise, increase brand visibility on media (social and traditional). generate revenue for the participants. in the same way of f1, or nba or football. or any other sport.
u can choose to go the manufacturers way, or go to the privateers way. i'm not here to say what's right or wrong. i'm just saying that's hard to stay in the middle as they did before. (wrc for marketing/eliteness and regional rally for selling cars) let's see the new era!
lancia is a good example. their sport director said to italian media: rally 4 is just a little marketing test for the brand visibility. if lancia flag will appear enough around the world and the media, then maybe the board will give green light to a rally2 step, but for now, we are just testing if motorsport is responding enough for invest in it. 100+ car produced is a good start to harald the brand, he said.
let's hope so. it's all about this. let's hope the new promoter ( if they can find one...) will be able to increase the capability of wrc in that sense!
What is a manufacturer to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
I made a list of 10 manufacturers of rally cars that'd be available for sale to the public (hypothetically). They'd all be manufacturers, manufacturing manufacturers' wares. You might say "but I can't buy one". Yes you could. "You don't see anybody driving them on the roads". How often do you see a Rally1/2/3/4/5 being driven?
Lancia built 100 Rally4s already? Great, why not allow low-volume car manufacturers in to that market? Why does there need to be 25,000 similar looking cars of a different construction, different fuel type, sharing little comforts and components... etc.. it doesn't make sense. It would only make sense if Lancia/Stellantis were pouring enough bucks into the FIA coffers, but it appears the manufs are all in crises.
This is a long term reset and transformation for sustainability into the next decades, not a 'how do we scrape through another season with the existing players'. The 'touring car' is dead, going rallying with a 'modified series-production touring car' is dead, and there's zero link between a rally car and 'SUV' mobility vehicle/android phone on wheels.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
So you want rally championships to cease to exist and replace them with... a buggy championship? Like buggies we see in Dakar, such as the MD Optimus buggy, or Extreme E? Because what you're describing don't seem to be rally cars. A championship that uses buggies is not a rally championship, just like a championship that uses motorbikes is not a rally championship. Would be the same as suggesting that touring car series start using single seaters, they wouldn't be touring car series anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
The argument of "rally cars have strayed so far from their origins, let's just abandon the concept of rally car altogether and have a rally championship without rally cars" doesn't seem to fix the patient's problem, it eliminates the patient.
Unless you mean that cars made by tuners like the Swedish Mitsubishi Mirage R5 should be allowed to compete, in that case I agree. Could you give some example (real or not) of cars you'd see running?
"going rallying with a 'modified series-production touring car' is dead": 99,9% (probably more) of rally cars in the world are modified series production cars, there are quite big entry lists filled with those all over Europe.