Sounds like a Mini WRC with a sore throat.
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Sounds like a Mini WRC with a sore throat.
Tommi Mäkinen tests 1944 - 2016
https://youtu.be/BPaoOIEttcY?t=83
https://youtu.be/Y3YUhUApXv4?t=60
Lunde, you're on the money here. Makinen is uniquely placed as a team principle to understand and guide technical development and it would be a waste of such a resource if he were not involved in testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
Anyone who thinks this project will be undercooked or anything other than a full on effort doesn't know Toyota, Makinen, or rally history at all.
Rallyper, you've never been thought of in this forum as a bastion of rationality but nevertheless please refrain from putting the Greek twat on a pedestal. He may from time to time bring an element of childish humor however his propensity for insult surpasses any good and he is undeserving of your adulation.
Again, it's not about Toyota WANTING to win. It's whether this team environment is the right one. People do know history, they know that Tommi had a car designed around him - great for him but Mitsubishi never won a championship and Toyota won last time with TMG.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Name the last successful team principal who was a great driver themselves, any motorsport team? (I don't count MW in this as list).
Citroën, Guy Frequelin. Most successful team in WRC history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
Ove "Påven" Andersson. Toyota TTE (the company that became TMG.)
(To name two)
That the team principal is a former driver doesnt need to be an advantage, and can also be a disadvantage. But in Tommis case, in regards to developing the car, I personally believe its a big advantage. Toyota Gazoo doesnt have the budget of VW, that means they have to try to outsmart them. Mäkinens abilities as a test driver are unique, so this is something that can help in that matter. How Mäkinen will be as a team principal, I dont know. But from looking at the car from the current videos, its clear to see they have a certain plan. Looking forward to seeing it on the rough stuff too.
(This thing about Mäkinen having the Mitsubishi built "around him" is just as misunderstood as Loeb having the Citroën built "around him".)
Mitsubishi won the championship 1998Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
http://www.ewrc-results.com/season.php?s=1998&nat=0
http://www.juwra.com/season_1998_points.html
What was Lasse Lampi job at ralliart during Makinen era?
I also see Makinen's direct involvement in testing as a positive thing, remember Sainz's involvement in polo's early development.
Would never claim I am, neither should anyone else. I´m not putting NOT on a piedestal, only saying (like others) that he brings some salt and pepper to this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Ignore him if you don´t like him.
I´m rational and make my comments after more than 50 years experience as a rallydriver/organizer/freak. Sometimes my swedish pedigree makes me a bit angry to all quotes about worthless drivers from other parts of the world. But that´s what we all do now and then.
Cool, thanks for that. Didn't know about those guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
Chief Test driver. I thought it was well known he did most of the testing for Makinen.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon
This baffles me as well, Lampi was well known for doing most of the testing for Makinen during Mitsubishi years, and Lampi didn`t join Subaru... It`s really strange to read Makinen is considered top test driver of all time (by some) as I haven`t heard anything even remotely similar... He was a very very good, in fact best of his time, driver yes, but test driver?? Anyway I won`t get into more debate with this, lets just all hope Toyota will be competitive with the others so we get a good series.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Probably quite a good film to watch to get an insight into Makinen from people who know him well. And also some nice footage in there. Good for people who are maybe quite new to rallying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W22vFqVmC80
Some bits on Lampi from around 14:30.
Well, when you are an active championship driver, it is quite usual to have other drivers doing the development driving, and even if you get some hints on set up, its usually the driver him self that does the last set up tuning, and this I believe was how the combination of Lasse Lampi (who did important and great work for Mitsubishi) and Mäkinen.Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSS
In my mind Tommi had a very clear vision of both how to drive, and how to set up his car to achieve this, but Finnish rally historians can contribute more on this topic.
Even tough his role in his Mitsubishi days was not as a test driver (off course), his skill at finding the right set up is quite evident, as he won many of his rallies by taking an early lead (like Loeb, and Ogier when he is not sweeping.)
(Mäkinen played a great role in Petter Solbergs championship in 2003.)
And because of this, he wants to be an active part in developing the car, which I think is a strength to the team.
If any one here has more detailed info on how Lasse Lampi and Tommi and the whole Mitsubishi team worked together, I would love it if you shared it. And I also think that would be on topic in this thread, because I think Tommi is basing his structure of Toyota Gazoo on the Mitsubishi/Rally Art team structure.
And I also think he wants to get the same "family" feeling in his own team. If he succeeds or not, time will tell.
Any how it will be very interesting to follow the development of this "little brother" of the WRC team family, where I think Volkswagen, Hyundai - and also probably Citroën - has a budget advantage :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Great (I was looking for this)! And exactly my point. This is what Tommi is trying to recreate :)
And off cource Andrew Cowan and Ralliart (with I believe is the team Tommi is basing his Toyota Gazoo Racing team on, all tough he is probably having the roles of both Cowan and Lasse Lampi.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
This "family operation" sure has very good British accent...Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
New test in Gravel Spain with Makinen
Gallery Photos http://goo.gl/6ZK33F
we dont know (yet) if Makinen is an advantage or disadvantage to have a role at Yaris testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSS
Tommi is a lot of years out of competition,while for example Sainz wasnt.
Times have changed,everything is evolute. Its different to have a good basis(gr A car) and is different to create a wrc which have to be competetive.
I am very sceptical about the Toyota project,the way they organize it.
I am very sceptical because we dont know plenty of things about them(who designed for example Yaris)
Hopefully they succeed,and to have a 4th factory that can win rallies.But to see this,even if they build a car that can win,with which drivers?
Difficult project for Tommi...
A new video of Makinen testing the car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2ArImvpFnc
Another new one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiH0h5q4quY
according to editor,Jarmo Lehtinen was co drivingQuote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Tommi has done lots of development and driving last 15 years, he do for living for a Long time very good subaru gr.N rallycars.
I think it's great for the team Tommy doing the initial testing. He can get first hand knowledge of how the car is driving, and what obvious weaknesses it has straight off the bat. That's a great position to be in for a team leader.
Then it'll be Hanninen/ Mikko who I'm sure will take over and do most of the work when Toyota start ramping up the testing programmes. People on here with more knowledge will be able to correct me if I'm wrong, but i think the plan for Toyota to have 3 cars running simultaneously all over Europe in a few weeks time sounds very positive. That'll be more testing miles than any other team is going to be doing I'd bet.
Unfortunately for Toyota they didn't manage to recruit an excellent test driver/ #1 driver for next year, like Meeke. Kris will be able to put his mark on the C3 and Ogier/Mikkelsen and Jari can do the same for the Polo.
From watching the videos it's a very intriguing sound, totally different to the C3 and VW. It's hard to tell from the videos and maybe I'm mistaken, but compared to watching videos of the c3 and VW it looks like the Yaris might not have the same great acceleration out of slower corners? It does remind me of the first time seeing the i20 testing, something just didn't look totally 'right' but it was hard to put a finger on it.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
there is nothing common between a production car and a new wrc car.Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
Except that to develop a wrc car without have drive other wrc cars doesnt help too.
Well there was a running joke that Lampi did most of the testing (with Burns), Tommi would turn up, and have a few runs, and decide Yes or No on settings, etc Then go back home. I've read that Kankkunen and even McRae were similar...Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSS
He was never known to be like Sainz, who was famous for his thoroughness.
So if you should bring up a new car, would you hire Camilli, Abbring or Lefbvre or any other young unexperienced guy to do initial tests or should you maybe consider a multiple champion instead?
are these the only choices?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Yes Per, you have a long varied involvement in the sport, as do I and a number of others who frequent the forum. Perhaps that's why we can recall those who, over the past 5 or so decades, have shaped history and we understand the contributions, efforts and sacrifices they made. And how they are deserving of our respect, not our ridicule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Did You make that selection in purpose? How about those who actually worked on some car's development? Mark Higgins, Sebastian Lindholm, Raimund Baumschlager, Freddy Loix, Roman Kresta, Bryan Bouffier, Paolo Andreucci...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
You don't need big names for making a good car because driving fast isn't the same as being able to develop a car. Many cars were developed by "nameless" drivers who never won anything with them.
Just like Dimviii I just don't have a good feeling about the whole Tommi's Toyota project even though I wish it all the best (also to Juho Hänninen).
oooh... thank you very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Crikey, should we call you "Sir"?Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
No thanks. I do though suggest a short course in English comprehension. Some of your recent posts display a shortcoming in that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
Maybe you could help me with my comprehension of this word: Pompous.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Now back to Toyota...
The fact is Grundo, you've written two replies to two of my posts clearly without understanding a word of either one. Who's pompous?Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
There is a difference between understanding your post and disagreeing with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
You come across as someone with superior knowledge because you have been following a sport for a long time and most likely a driver, car builder etc (which is all great) but it doesn't give you any more valid opinion than someone else. I base my opinion on a number of sources (having followed the sport since last century as well) and most importantly the experience of my brother who joined Ralliart in the late 80's when they were developing the Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 with Ari Vatanen and then he joined Ford and worked with the development of the Cosworth RS500, with Stig Blomqvuist, Colin Macrae and also Jonathan Palmer with the RS200 as a Rallycross car etc.
Those days and era are very different to today. I am not an expert, I don't profess to be an expert but I am voicing an opinion that I don't think replicating what has gone before is necessarily the correct thing to do. Formula one has changed, Touring Cars and V8 supercars have changed and I think so has WRC car development. I don't think building a car is the hard bit, building a winning car is very very difficult today, Hyundai has a team of 190 that supports their car development and WRC programme - that's a lot of people in the background working on a number of things - only 4 of them are drivers. Tommi would get my vote of confidence if he was demonstrating more that he is building the team around him than driving the car.
That's my opinion.
Grundo, I don't think that many of us know what tommi is doing, apart from what we read in the media. The very stuff that Andrew Cowan did to build Ralliart was invisible to an outsider also. Time alone will tell, but don't underestimate the people and the process. Like you I am not sure, but for the sake of the sport I want them to succeed
And pompous is a town in Italy, south of Romus
Love it, brilliant!Quote:
Originally Posted by bowler
This OT, but have to be answered. Saying NOT belongs to the forum doesnt mean you agree with him. Not especially when he ridicules people. Still he is the salt on this forum and should be that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt