Rally Portugal 2016

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Originally Posted by Simmi

I don't think anyone is in doubt that the road order needs looking at. Ogier has made so much noise about it that it's becoming unavoidable and the FIA needs to rectify this.

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Amen. The best thing FIA could do right now is to take back 2014 starting rules (1st day according to championship standings, 2nd/3rd days according to previous day classification, with top ten running in reversed order).

That way it’d be pretty clear that VW and Ogier aren’t the dominant force they used to be. They’re mainly upset because competition has managed to progress and reach their technical level.

Paddon won Argentina’s last day direct confrontation with Ogier and Meeke got a 34.5s advantage over the French at the end of Portugal’s 2nd leg (while last year Latvala’s leaded only by 9.5s). Trying to justify that with current starting order isn’t serious.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

That way it’d be pretty clear that VW and Ogier aren’t the dominant force they used to be. They’re mainly upset because competition has managed to progress and reach their technical level.

Paddon won Argentina’s last day direct confrontation with Ogier and Meeke got a 34.5s advantage over the French at the end of Portugal’s 2nd leg (while last year Latvala’s leaded only by 9.5s). Trying to justify that with current starting order isn’t serious.

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both these wins were because of starting order and because Latavla is nothing.

Paddons was a bit more substantial because it was a one stage dog fight and Ogier barely loses those, but with 1 day of cleaning Ogier would be the winner in those rallies.

Fantastic Porto, fantastic Portugal and fantastic WRC! Only 359 days for next one...

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Video highlights
WRC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3EmTS3eYiA
Borl: https://youtu.be/4bbui7Dhc-o

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

(...) with 1 day of cleaning Ogier would be the winner in those rallies.

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How can anyone be that sure anymore?

Let's be honest, Ogier is not giving 110% anymore to win rallies with such rules.

Ogier? I don't think so. He has the beast in him which just must crush the others. Always. And that's exactly why he feels frustrated even when he is already now near sure 2016 champion.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

Let's be honest, Ogier is not giving 110% anymore to win rallies with such rules.

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It's possible. Best way to know is to get back to previous rules.

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Originally Posted by Simmi

People just hate sustained periods of success and lord knows the WRC has endured enough of that. So by definition it is exciting to see new and different drivers winning. It's more about momentum and hope for the future that we will actually get these fights more often.

Whether you agree with Capito's points or not - to come out with this the day after a rival victory is massively poor form. It's disrespectful and short-sighted, and it's also another PR own-goal for VW. To say having multiple rally winners 'devalues' the sport shows he certainly has the right mentality for F1!

I don't think anyone is in doubt that the road order needs looking at. Ogier has made so much noise about it that it's becoming unavoidable and the FIA needs to rectify this. The idea about putting 'wild card' drivers first on the road is stupid though - like most of his ideas.

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There are a lot of ways to look at the starting order, 2014 rules might be the best route, but the timing of this statement is really poorly judged.

And its also taking away to much from the performances of the recent winners. I think Latvala can testify to the fact that these victories are a little bit more difficult than just picking them up like groceries in the convenience store.

And I know a guy from New Zealand who is gearing up to take on Ogier from any starting position ;)

So does that mean that capito wants them running at the front in tarmac rallys too pulling all the dirt onto the road in front of ogier like he does for everyone else...

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Ogier? I don't think so. He has the beast in him which just must crush the others. Always. And that's exactly why he feels frustrated even when he is already now near sure 2016 champion.

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It is Your right to think what You wish, but in my opinion he has given up the fight with impossible.

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Originally Posted by wia5958

So does that mean that capito wants them running at the front in tarmac rallys too pulling all the dirt onto the road in front of ogier like he does for everyone else...

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I believe that is his next planned statement, yes.

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

And I know a guy from New Zealand who is gearing up to take on Ogier from any starting position ;)

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So do I.

The little French Bantam is finding out that there is a full sized Rooster in the chook house now hence all the ruffled feathers.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

both these wins were because of starting order ... .

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Not an entirely unreasonable statement however the 'facts' are inconclusive.
If the issue of road sweeping were such a determinant of the outcome then surely Ogier should be winning the 2nd pass over the multi use stages. He's not doing so, at least not consistently.

I can recall a time (very many years ago) when 'seeding' was recognition of the driver's status and the expectation of their result. The #1 was worn by the car expected to win which may not have been the current champion but the winner of the previous year's event. The cars would start each event in numerical order. The car numbers would change on each event, as would their start position on the first day. The start order on subsequent days would reflect their position in the event.
A simple system which everybody understood ... the competitors, the media and, most importantly, the spectators.
What's not understandable is why they ever changed it.

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Originally Posted by sollitt

Not an entirely unreasonable statement however the 'facts' are inconclusive.
If the issue of road sweeping were such a determinant of the outcome then surely Ogier should be winning the 2nd pass over the multi use stages. He's not doing so, at least not consistently.

I can recall a time (very many years ago) when 'seeding' was recognition of the driver's status and the expectation of their result. The #1 was worn by the car expected to win which may not have been the current champion but the winner of the previous year's event. The cars would start each event in numerical order. The car numbers would change on each event, as would their start position on the first day. The start order on subsequent days would reflect their position in the event.
A simple system which everybody understood ... the competitors, the media and, most importantly, the spectators.
What's not understandable is why they ever changed it.

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Dont forget that on the second pass Ogier is first on the road again (being first on the road in the lines of the smaller classes.)

http://s5.postimg.org/mlcov9c5j/201600510238_1ov.jpg

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Originally Posted by er88

Thing is, why does Ogier/VW go on and on about road cleaning to this extent. Every driver would love to be in Ogier's position with the best car, the best team, a massive contract and a comfortable championship lead. I'm sure Meeke and Paddon have said that themselves - that if you're running 1st on the road it means you're doing well in the championship. All the greats of the past won championships cleaning the road, and it's always been a part of the WRC.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

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Will someone give this man a cigar?

Someone made the very good point recently that Ogier came up through the ranks where he didn't really have to start first on the road as he was part of junior classes in a bigger championship, rather than being a leading national driver a lot of the time. And even in WRC in the Citroen Junior team he wasn't first still. So it wasn't till he was a VW driver that he actually had to run first consistently?

Whereas a lot of other competitors did national events where it was part of being the fastest driver, you swept the road. So I think some of it is perspective and your previous experience?

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Originally Posted by Munkvy

Someone made the very good point recently that Ogier came up through the ranks where he didn't really have to start first on the road as he was part of junior classes in a bigger championship, rather than being a leading national driver a lot of the time. And even in WRC in the Citroen Junior team he wasn't first still. So it wasn't till he was a VW driver that he actually had to run first consistently?

Whereas a lot of other competitors did national events where it was part of being the fastest driver, you swept the road. So I think some of it is perspective and your previous experience?

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Which as a professional driver and multiple world champion, he needs to deal with in a professional manner, not whine like a little bitch every time he sees a microphone.

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Originally Posted by RAS007

Which as a professional driver and multiple world champion, he needs to deal with in a professional manner, not whine like a little bitch every time he sees a microphone.

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Absolutely agree, he is a little bitch. Certainly doesn't live up to the Seb name.

And I don't like that he complains, but I guess I am more saying he had it easy coming up, others have dealt with sweeping before and to them it's just normal.

The fact is that we are confusing Ogier's mental issues and frustrations with the rules.

Ogier should not complain that much, we all know that. Consider that after Sardinia we will have Corsica, China, Spain and Galles, all rallys where he will have either equal conditions or being advantaged.
Also I'm hearing of bad weather in Sardinia that will mean he will be advantaged there too if true.

The fact is that the rules are wrong no matter who is first in the championship.
In 2014 before a rally we knew anybody can win, now in gravel rallys we know somebody have no chance, and in rallys like Monaco is even worse because the best driver is advantaged, so anybody else have hopes.
It's simple as that.
It's not up to rulers to stop Ogier, they can limit him as they did in 2014 when he opened the road in first leg, but to stop him is up to other drivers and teams.
And I know a guy from NZ with his norvegian advisor that can do the task in the future.

Also don't forget that in 2014 Ogier lost 5 times and won 8. I'm pretty sure this year will not be too much different. The only difference is that him and us already know that in some rallys he has no chance and in others he has already win before start. I don't find this "exciting", do you?

One last thing:
In a previous comment I read "every driver would love to be in Ogier's position with the best car, the best team, a massive contract and a comfortable championship lead."
Ogier is not there by God's will, he is there because he earned it, he showed all his strenght battling against the best rally driver of all time and winning all the world championships afterwards. So he is not lucky to be there.

Please now let me stop defending him, it makes me suffer :)

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Originally Posted by AL14

Ogier is not there by God's will

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I can confirm that.

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Originally Posted by AL14

The fact is that we are confusing Ogier's mental issues and frustrations with the rules.

Ogier should not complain that much, we all know that. Consider that after Sardinia we will have Corsica, China, Spain and Galles, all rallys where he will have either equal conditions or being advantaged.
Also I'm hearing of bad weather in Sardinia that will mean he will be advantaged there too if true.

The fact is that the rules are wrong no matter who is first in the championship.
In 2014 before a rally we knew anybody can win, now in gravel rallys we know somebody have no chance, and in rallys like Monaco is even worse because the best driver is advantaged, so anybody else have hopes.
It's simple as that.
It's not up to rulers to stop Ogier, they can limit him as they did in 2014 when he opened the road in first leg, but to stop him is up to other drivers and teams.
And I know a guy from NZ with his norvegian advisor that can do the task in the future.

Also don't forget that in 2014 Ogier lost 5 times and won 8. I'm pretty sure this year will not be too much different. The only difference is that him and us already know that in some rallys he has no chance and in others he has already win before start. I don't find this "exciting", do you?

One last thing:
In a previous comment I read "every driver would love to be in Ogier's position with the best car, the best team, a massive contract and a comfortable championship lead."
Ogier is not there by God's will, he is there because he earned it, he showed all his strenght battling against the best rally driver of all time and winning all the world championships afterwards. So he is not lucky to be there.

Please now let me stop defending him, it makes me suffer :)

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I think you make a very important point here AL14, and that is that we should not disrespect Ogier as a driver.
He is the current benchmark, no two ways about that.

But, motorsport at this level is not only for the drivers. It is also for spectators, TV viewers etc, (read: fans) to gather attention, to make it a sellable product, so it needs to be exiting.
Success ballast is commonly used in touring cars to level the playing field. (I am not introducing the idea of success ballast in rallying!) It is not fair to the best team/driver, but it does its role in creating excitement.
There has also been reverse starting orders in the second race, so the winner starts down in the grid.
So the question is, if Ogier would lead a touring car championship, would he always complain about the rules then as well?

All tough Im in favor of the 2014 rules (because when Hayden wins the championship I want it to be on equal terms against the best in the world), I think Volkswagen and Capito is doing damage to the WRC by these kind of very poorly timed statements.

My suspicion is that the main reason for this is Ogiers character. For him it isn't enough to win the championship, he wants to beat every record ever set, to be the greatest of all time (and we all know what that means), and he sees that this will be impossible if these rules continue, and I would suspect that he has even threatened to quit rallying all together if this does not change, and I suspect Ogiers tuntrums after Portugal lead Capito to have to react, to show Ogier that he stands 100% behind him.

The championship needs Ogier, to win the championship whit out beating him would be like winning the Spanish soccer league whit out Barcelona and Real Madrid playing.

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

I think you make a very important point here AL14, and that is that we should not disrespect Ogier as a driver.
He is the current benchmark, no two ways about that.

But, motorsport at this level is not only for the drivers. It is also for spectators, TV viewers etc, (read: fans) to gather attention, to make it a sellable product, so it needs to be exiting.
Success ballast is commonly used in touring cars to level the playing field. (I am not introducing the idea of success ballast in rallying!) It is not fair to the best team/driver, but it does its role in creating excitement.
There has also been reverse starting orders in the second race, so the winner starts down in the grid.
So the question is, if Ogier would lead a touring car championship, would he always complain about the rules then as well?

All tough Im in favor of the 2014 rules (because when Hayden wins the championship I want it to be on equal terms against the best in the world), I think Volkswagen and Capito is doing damage to the WRC by these kind of very poorly timed statements.

My suspicion is that the main reason for this is Ogiers character. For him it isn't enough to win the championship, he wants to beat every record ever set, to be the greatest of all time (and we all know what that means), and he sees that this will be impossible if these rules continue, and I would suspect that he has even threatened to quit rallying all together if this does not change, and I suspect Ogiers tuntrums after Portugal lead Capito to have to react, to show Ogier that he stands 100% behind him.

The championship needs Ogier, to win the championship whit out beating him would be like winning the Spanish soccer league whit out Barcelona and Real Madrid playing.

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That sentence is enough for me. Do you find it exciting? I don't. I was just happy for Kris Meeke last weekend because he is a great driver and seems a nice guy. But really, as a fan, I would have been way more excited if he had won against Ogier in equal conditions.

Also you're not counting that in rallys like Monte or Galles when it rains (always) it is even less exciting because Ogier is advantaged.

In conclusion I agree with you that motorsport and rally are not just for drivers and must be exciting for fans and sponsors. But my objection is that these rules don't make it exciting.

As for Capito's move agree it has been stupid in timing and in the way he showed his disagreement. Ogier's tantrums have had a role for sure. This does not change the fact that in my opinion 2014 rules are better for everybody, drivers, spectators, and sponsors.

Guys, have a look on that all stuff from higher perspective no matter how hard it is. Now for a while forget that motorsport is sport and look at it as on marketing tool which it actually is for all the manufacturers involved. They don't spend millions for helping some guy to win the title. They do it because they want to increase their image, to sell more of their products and to make more money.

As such motorsport on this level is all driven by cold money-driven management. And that's another issue because if one very rich team buys the best people from other teams, goes through far biggest amount of testing it simply must defeat others (unless the team management is utterly incompetent). As a result the other managements must sooner or later come to a conclusion that spending those millions in this sport brings nothing. They pack and move somewhere else. Then we have what we had less than ten years a go with Loeb/Citroën combination when all other manufacturers left (M-Sport which is not a manufacturer is different case). The very same thing keeps repeating all the time. Recently we can name ERC/IRC which was in a similar way so much dominated by Škoda that every other team left. What happened next? Škoda left too because there was no interest in that championship anymore. The championship is now half dead. Do You think it won't happen in WRC if VW keeps dominating for several more years? It will happen and then VW moves into some other sport just like they did when they destroyed the competition in Dakar.

It's the job of FIA and the promoter to keep the manufacturers interested but how can You keep them in when one team keeps winning all the time? It's sad for sporting purist but the only way is to let them have some success from time to time. They must have something to sell and loosing every two weeks again and again with the very same competitor is very bad marketing if You ask me. I'm surprised Capito says what he says as he must be aware of all that. The only explanation is that VW acts just like in Dakar. They don't seem to care what's left when one day they stay as a lone winner of a deserted championship.

Mirek I say it also in a marketing point of view. If excitment is what make you reach marketing goals, then this is not exciting. I agree that for a new manufacturer entering the sport the chance to win soon is good for marketing but look at facts: we will have 5 factory teams from next year. The last two decided to enter the sport before this years rules...

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

But, motorsport at this level is not only for the drivers. It is also for spectators, TV viewers etc, (read: fans) to gather attention, to make it a sellable product, so it needs to be exiting.

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Exactly this is here Capito made his point. WRC is hard to recognize for a casual spectator, he doesn't understand why the championship leader is handicapped by a guy ho enters few rallies for the year. He probably finds f1 much more exciting now, equal conditions, more real competition.
Imagine a sprint duel between a sportsman in a wheelchair taking part in para-Olympics running only 10m and Husein Bolt running 100m. Is it exciting? Or just humiliating? Who will watch such competition. No, sport is about competition.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Guys, have a look on that all stuff from higher perspective no matter how hard it is. Now for a while forget that motorsport is sport and look at it as on marketing tool which it actually is for all the manufacturers involved. They don't spend millions for helping some guy to win the title. They do it because they want to increase their image, to sell more of their products and to make more money.

As such motorsport on this level is all driven by cold money-driven management. And that's another issue because if one very rich team buys the best people from other teams, goes through far biggest amount of testing it simply must defeat others (unless the team management is utterly incompetent). As a result the other managements must sooner or later come to a conclusion that spending those millions in this sport brings nothing. They pack and move somewhere else. Then we have what we had less than ten years a go with Loeb/Citroën combination when all other manufacturers left (M-Sport which is not a manufacturer is different case). The very same thing keeps repeating all the time. Recently we can name ERC/IRC which was in a similar way so much dominated by Škoda that every other team left. What happened next? Škoda left too because there was no interest in that championship anymore. The championship is now half dead. Do You think it won't happen in WRC if VW keeps dominating for several more years? It will happen and then VW moves into some other sport just like they did when they destroyed the competition in Dakar.

It's the job of FIA and the promoter to keep the manufacturers interested but how can You keep them in when one team keeps winning all the time? It's sad for sporting purist but the only way is to let them have some success from time to time. They must have something to sell and loosing every two weeks again and again with the very same competitor is very bad marketing if You ask me. I'm surprised Capito says what he says as he must be aware of all that. The only explanation is that VW acts just like in Dakar. They don't seem to care what's left when one day they stay as a lone winner of a deserted championship.

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I understand marketing is important and everybody wants to win, but this sounds more like lottery to me - everyone with few coins in his pocket can make millions by scratching some numbers.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

Exactly this is here Capito made his point. WRC is hard to recognize for a casual spectator, he doesn't understand why the championship leader is handicapped by a guy ho enters few rallies for the year. He probably finds f1 much more exciting now, equal conditions, more real competition.
Imagine a sprint duel between a sportsman in a wheelchair taking part in para-Olympics running only 10m and Husein Bolt running 100m. Is it exciting? Or just humiliating? Who will watch such competition. No, sport is about competition.

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So according to your own words we should let Usain Bolt run 90m and the rest of the field 100m? Just because he is Usain Bolt (in our case Ogier)? Motorsport is not athletics and never will be. If WRC would run reverse starting order, then this would be the scenario. Also, you have to consider that on tarmac events running first will be huge advantage.

It's not so black and white as you would think at first.

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Originally Posted by cali

So according to your own words we should let Usain Bolt run 90m and the rest of the field 100m? Just because he is Usain Bolt (in our case Ogier)?

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Of course not, but neither force Usain Bolt to run 110m.

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Originally Posted by AL14

Mirek I say it also in a marketing point of view. If excitment is what make you reach marketing goals, then this is not exciting. I agree that for a new manufacturer entering the sport the chance to win soon is good for marketing but look at facts: we will have 5 factory teams from next year. The last two decided to enter the sport before this years rules...

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Introducing new rules is a long established way how to renew the interest in the motorsport. It's not always because the new rules would be better or anything, they just have to be new for everybody. It gives everybody a chance to start from zero and it always brings more attention both from the teams and audience. The interest can however fade very quickly and since it's near impossible to create fair rules which prevent domination of a superior team various form of handicaps appear from time to time in most of the motorsports branches. Road sweeping, different rules for privateers and works entrants, additional balast, reverse starting order in some circuit races etc. All has the same target and nothing of that is fair. The common point is that the best keep winning anyway, they just don't win every single event in the calendar and therefore don't discourage the competition to continue.

Here is my video of Portugal 2016

With drone shootage :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPLrt7MFaoQ

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Originally Posted by cali

Also, you have to consider that on tarmac events running first will be huge advantage.

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I don't find that exciting either, it is even worse scenario.

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Originally Posted by cali

So according to your own words we should let Usain Bolt run 90m and the rest of the field 100m? Just because he is Usain Bolt (in our case Ogier)?

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No, I just wont watch such sport

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

No, I just wont watch such sport

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Jeez, what's the solution then? Organizers have to sweep the roads before each pass?

We all probably agree on the essential: current starting order rules aren’t needed anymore. They were made to limit VW and Ogier dominance but now competitors are clearly showing they’ve progressed and the technical gap that existed since 2014 is being closed.

Meeke and Paddon wins are no longer lucky wins like those of Neuville in ’14 Germany or the Scott last year in Argentina. In this year MC and Sweden they were already matching Ogier pace and that came as a surprise to almost everyone (including VW guys). After Argentina and Portugal there are very few doubts left.

The funny thing is that VW staff just can’t accept it. It’d be pretty simple for them to say openly the obvious: look, these rules doensn’t makes sense anymore because we’re no longer superior, our competitors have managed to progress.

Admitting this is probably too much for VW’s proudly German ego and ironically they’re hurting themselves by not doing it in a clear way. Instead they’ve come out with the 2wd lines issue in Argentina and now in Portugal they’re saying there’s a problem about random entries of top competitors.

It sounds ridiculous and almost gives us the will to see them suffer a bit longer, but honestly the rules aren’t fair anymore even for Hyundai and Citroen: with these starting order issues they can’t claim undoubtedly that their wins are a deserved compensation for their development work or their drivers improved skills, as they truly are.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

I don't find that exciting either, it is even worse scenario.

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but didnt hear ever Ogier moaning about this.
He likes to have advantage,but dont like when he hasnt .He wants all for his favour.
We are talking about a driver that in interviews have said, that he is trying to make a mess with extreme cutting,to make the road slower for the rest crews.

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Originally Posted by cali

Jeez, what's the solution then? Organizers have to sweep the roads before each pass?

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For me the ideal solution was QS. I still don't understand why they removed it. It adds additional excitement with choosing the starting order,choosing tyres, etc. And remember Ogier won't win it each time just of the same starting order rules on QS.

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Originally Posted by dimviii

but didnt hear ever Ogier moaning about this.
He likes to have advantage,but dont like when he hasnt .He wants all for his favour.
We are talking about a driver that in interviews have said, that he is trying to make a mess with extreme cutting,to make the road slower for the rest crews.

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This is the place where the other drivers should complain. I'm not defending Ogier, just the sport as such.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

For me the ideal solution was QS. I still don't understand why they removed it. It adds additional excitement with choosing the starting order,choosing tyres, etc. And remember Ogier won't win it each time just of the same starting order rules on QS.

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Partially agree on this. Why QS was dumped in the first place?

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Originally Posted by cali

Partially agree on this. Why QS was dumped in the first place?

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Too many tricks and team tactics