Wait, what?Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Printable View
Wait, what?Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
I think Latvala said it best, some years ago we had only 2 manufactures (Citroen and Ford), and a bunch of privateers.
Today it is way too expensive for privateers to rent one of those cars.
There lies the problem if you want a more extensive entrylist.
Well, we had a huge debate here on how m-sport is not a "real" manufacturer.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Now Ford seems to be more involved with M-Sport compared to last year(s), so they should have a real 2024 commitment and not the classic winter "we don't know if we can enter next year" nor a "transitional" season with no top driver as this one.
To me, it counts as having a "real" manu again. so 3 and not 2 (2 and a privateer if u rather)
and by the way, I think ford is back also because is interested in the hybrid thing (they had a huge marketing on sport website -like eurosport- in Italy about sport hybrids and evs)
this is from october 2020, sponsored by ford:
https://www.eurosport.it/motorsports...39/story.shtml (italian, sorry)
tranlation on the wrc related bit:
CHANGE IS IMMINENT
The FIA World Rally Championship (WRC) has its roots in fierce, muddy and terribly noisy cars. However, the series will have to be reformed in 2022, when hybrid technology will enter the scene, representing the most significant change in technical regulations since the arrival of Group A in 1987.
Among the groups promoting the development of hybrid technology is M-Sport, the most successful Ford-powered rally team based in the UK. This Ford-backed team has many accolades and a solid track record in rallying, winning numerous titles including the Constructors' and Drivers' championships in 2017 and the Drivers' Championship in 2018.
"This is a completely new set of regulations that affect not only the hybrid engine but the entire rally car," Richard Milleners, Team Principal of M-Sport, tells Eurosport. The team is currently working hard to develop its Ford hybrid car for 2022, which will be used for racing around the world.
WE ARE FACING A VERY CHALLENGING HURDLE BECAUSE WE ARE CHANGING EVERYTHING FOR 2022 AND INTRODUCING ANOTHER POWERTRAIN THAT WE HAVE NOT USED BEFORE.
The M-Sport team is excited to talk about the role Ford is playing in the introduction of the technology, with which the manufacturer has determined the implementation of the hybrid together with the FIA.
"We only have a staff of 200 in the UK and we are calling on all of Ford's expertise, which is exceptional," he continues. "Hopefully this will help us build another successful car. The last time the regulations underwent such a change, our car won the championship two years in a row."
FORD DRIVES WRC HYBRID TECHNOLOGY
The WRC season was suspended for four months this year, and during this interruption the teams were allowed to continue their development. According to Richard, this was a good thing, as he continued to work with Ford on the hybrid technology and began to refine the details.
"It was an ideal time for us to focus our efforts on the new car for 2022," he said. "We have had a lot of time to devote to this goal and have further strengthened the collaboration between us.
"Without Ford and its support, none of this would have been possible. They have abundant resources that we rely on to work together. Most of our technology, work and design improvements on our hybrid come from our colleagues in Ford's engineering department."
there's also other ford sponsored articles about innovation in technology and audience engagement that speaks about WRC, with lots of fiesta's pictures. Not so usual in generalist media in Italy. Also not so common lately to Ford to ride their wrc link I think.
Sorry, but I believe Ford is not back as a full factory team. Most likely they just give resources to developing the new car, like always, but M-Sport has to deal with the running costs by themselves.
Another good example how Ford can take marketing benefit from M-Sport's efforts without putting down the millions like Toyota and Hyundai.
Maybe, or maybe not.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I think m-sport was the first to test the new car not by his own means, and all this ford pr on the hybrid era in wrc from late 2020 is not random. then for sure ford will not become suddenly toyota in terms of commitment, but will help m-sport to be a decent contender. marketing doesn't work if your product falls way behind the others. useless to put so much effort in pr like "wrc as benchmark of the ford's electric future" with no result to show.
EDIT: also Wilson Pr is way sweeter towards Ford lately...
(testing in America is new or they refer to ford wind tunnel?)
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/...uture/6005846/
You have to ask yourself why other sports like f1 or dakar manage to fill the grid, but wrc can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
If they would get rid of the stupid homologation rules and allow everyone to build a car, we could see far more teams.
After so many years being a private team they still have not considered changing marque.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
So it must be that ford is giving them more than any other manufacturer is willing to give.
FIA and their usual BS-stuff -.-Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
Why need “slots”?
I think they are collaborating on some costs. But I would also like to know how new manufacturers could join in.
The FIA "ticket" is for new entries. The system used in the British Touring Car Championship is for the organisers to keep a small number of entry licences which can be leased on a short-term basis. These are used for new teams to enter the champonship. Once they have a couple of seasons experience they are expected to bid for a normal entry against the other teams. Teams leaving the championship are also able to sell their entry to other teams. I haven't studied the FIA WRC proposals, but I expect they are similar to what is in use in the BTCC.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Makes sense when a championship as more entries than it can handle (track-size for BTCC), and don't want to go down pre-qual, which is why F1 is capped at 13 teams in the rules (though, in practice it is 10 teams). But to have 4 in WRC seems... idiotic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boyd
I see your point but if the development costs of the hybrid system had been down to just the three teams there wouldn't have been any opportunity for a fourth team to join. FIA having a share at least leaves the door open for somebody to join.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyot...gram-underway/
Toyota supposedly testing already
WRC hybrid testing suspended as parts recalled
Compact Dynamics has requested the return of its hybrid kits, bringing 2022 testing to a sudden pause
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-h...arts-recalled/
I worry about this lot....Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
I'd like to know more details of the problem before getting too concerned. There's no substitute for actual testing in a car under similar conditions to competition. Temperature and vibration testing in a laboratory cannot fully replicate the stresses that occur on an event so it's no surprise to me that there are issues with the hybrid kit at this stage of development.
Sounds quite bad, not very good PR for Compact Dynamics...
Embarrassing to say the least...
Could it be so simple, they found out hybrid parts doesn´t have enough strength for rallying? More suitable to cruising on highway roads, like most of average Joe´s cars do?
Also worrying about safety, as been the discussion here a lot...
IMHO Issues were to be expected simply because there is too little prior experience to base the design work on. It's most likely solvable but it will take some time. Hoping for smooth development of something new where everything works perfect on the first attempt is nothing more than a wishful thinking. Always some problems rise and often it's problems which weren't anticipated. For sure it will be very tough to fulfil the schedule but that's hardly breaking news.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
I saw on Facebook lots of fans "HAPPY" with this. I AM on the "team non-hybrids please" too but IDK man. If the Hybrids are delayed or cancelled im not sure the manufacturers would continue. I mean, arent the manufacturers the ones demanding Hybrids? Hyundai would quit for sure... And IDK, Toyota was already testing that new car and it got cancelled. Now if they delay the hybrids more couldnt Toyota just say "AGAIN? Well, this is BS. You have no control of your own championship. We are out. Bye" ?
Not to mention MSport without any money..
Yep, if Hybrids were to be cancelled or delayed, at "best" we will continue like this year with 2 competitive teams. At worst one or both will leave and not come back and you get WEC situation when Porsche left and further down the road you get WRC changed to Rally2 only.
That there might be problems is to be expected.... and anticipated in schedule. "Schedule" during 2020/2021 is a problematic word though.
Don't worry, everything is okay.
“We started the development of this in May last year, we still have a very strong crisis all over the world and 10 months later the first system is delivered – from my side this is a great success.” - Oliver Blamberger, CEO
I'm sure that Toyota(as the ,,father,, of hybrid tech) wouldn't accept that the system used in WRC is worse than their own. Not the best PR to attract new manus to the series.
Matton should think of stepping aside..
some more info
Despite this, anonymous sources from the teams have confided to the aforementioned medium that some parts of the hybrid unit were not working correctly. In addition, an informant admitted that there is even a lack of software to control the device and that they have not even received an external charger, which is a fundamental piece.
In dialogue with DirtFish, Compact Dynamics CEO Oliver Blamberger acknowledged last month that the global pandemic had caused a five-week delay from the scheduled date for delivering hybrid units to WRC teams.
Likewise, the manager stated that the biggest cause of the delays was linked to suppliers from China and from various countries around the world. These companies contribute various elements of the device and have been chosen for their competitive prices, so that the total cost of the hybrid unit does not exceed 100,000 euros.
In addition, the CEO of Compact Dynamics also revealed that there were other additional delays at the German - Austrian border, where the battery sub-supplier, Kreisel Electric, also had difficulty in shipping its components.
As detailed by Blamberger, the hybrid unit can be tested, both in vehicles and on a test bench, since it has a generator function with the internal combustion of the heat engine, which in theory means that the using the external charger.
However, the CEO of Compact Dynamics also acknowledged in March that the company still owed the delivery of two additional test systems. The first of them included the external charger so requested by the teams, which was agreed to be distributed at the end of March. On the other hand, Blamberger reported that the second system should finish being delivered to the teams this week.
So far, only M-Sport and Toyota have been able to start the tests with their respective Rally1. The British team already got its engine running for the first time last month, before facing a car installation shakedown and initial functional test, which spanned two days and over 400 kilometers in the forests of Greystoke. The most recent reports indicated that the new transmission, suspension and electronics would have been tested on a Ford Fiesta ‘mule’ body.
http://motorboxradio.com.ar/2021/04/...recall-masivo/
This means that three manufacturers will depend on some low-cost Chinese suppliers for the success of their whole rallying projects and their ability to finish an Acropolis or Monte, in order to save a few thousand euros??? Is this a joke?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Basically every car on this planet does depend on Chinese low cost suppliers. That's how it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
Don't forget the special time we live in right now. Strange things are happening... A few months ago the Audi plant in Brussels had to shut down for a while, because they couldn't get hold of some parts (microchips). Sony launched some new Playstation last year, they can't meet the demand because lack of supply for the right parts. Price of many resources have skyrocketed (for example steel price roughly x4 compared to last summer), prices of container transport from China x5 to x10 depending on the type.
Seeing how huge companies struggle to get hold of parts for their production, I think it's short-sighted to blame Compact Dynamics themselves for the delay.
M-Sport Ford would exit WRC if new hybrid rules are delayed
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/...layed/6399591/
I bet Hyundai will say the same =/Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
If true this is potentially catastrophic news for the WRC.
But sometimes you need a catastrophic event for a change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Kinda OFF TOPIC but FIA released its plans for a new FIA GT series with only electric supercars.
It seems teams will have more freedom in building 2wd or 4wd and they can sorta "change somethings" in the batteries to fit their cars AND they will have this fast charge for longer races (no further infos on how long its going to take to charge them tho. 2min? 5min? 10min?).
So now we have Formula-e, Moto-e, extreme-e, eTCR, eGT, eRX.... covering basically all areas (f1, motogp, 'rally'/rallycross, touring, gts...) and I expect Motocrss to have eBikes in just a few years.
They are really pushing evs into world championships, eh?
If the hybrid cars for WRC go ahead in 2022, should the manufacturers/ FIA allow Rally 2/ R5 cars to be able to score WRC manufacturers points if all the hybrids breakdown? Certainly it might encourage Toyota to push through with the homologation of a Rally 2 GR Yaris.
-----------------
Beyond petrol hybrid could be hydrogen. Though Formula E developments are looking to 30 second recharges.
Group H Rally?(Hyundai and Toyota have production hydrogen vehicles)
https://www.dekra.com/en/hyraze-league/
30 second recharge mid-race
https://www.powerelectronictips.com/...-charging-faq/
I think this is interesting aswell:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...-enduro-series
That makes no sense. You can't replace one car which is late with another non existing one (for Toyota) especially when the first proper update for Rally2 is allowed only after three years of service. Rushed homologation of a Rally2 car is a complete suicide because it can not be fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humber
Toyota is still on schedule...
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/l...ecall/6434213/
M-Sport @MSportLtd
Having completed testing on all surfaces and weather conditions here in the UK, we're about to start the next phase of our 2022 research and development. Watch this space as the next step of hybrid-era testing gets underway !
https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status...588386817?s=20
So what are we looking at here. Fiesta WRC mule? Was expecting a Puma.