Huttunen! Though he doesn't need to be send, he's quite nearby already.
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Huttunen! Though he doesn't need to be send, he's quite nearby already.
Imo (and the wording of the release and Adamo's comments seem to confirm) it's not so much about how Mikkelsen did in the two rallies but how the whole Hyundai as a team did. 0 wins, 2 podiums (out of 6 "chances") and 2nd in manu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Somebody higher up lost patience and demands something done immediately.
Sordo+Loeb looks right now more likely to give better results for Corsica. I'd expect that no matter how the contract is written there are only some economic penalties for Hyundai if Mikkelsen doesn't drive, so they were just willing to take the cost. If you follow that route "best point chance no matter the cost" then Neuville-Loeb-Sordo is off course likely in Germany and/or Spain (more in Spain than Germany, cause Sordo has a crashing tendency there the last 2 years), not much anywhere else.
Extending this to other drivers and other rallies then the only drivers that could be somehow expected to get better results and are available are Paddon or Østberg in Finland (where Hyundai has a seat free already). Huttunen is an extra risk, not a "safe" choice for points, so it's less likely that calling Østberg or even Breen.
On other rallies Paddon had same or lower speed than Mikkelsen last year and no other (available) driver really did better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
I expect Paddon in Finland, he knows the car somewhat already. Ostberg, Breen, Huttunen, al would have to adapt to thecar first.
Simple reason gor dropping Mikkelsen at TDC: Hyundai realise the Manufacturer's title is their best chance and are going to play their strongest team rally by rally.
And who else? Neuville of course, but a third one...I bet Sordo and Loeb are both equally reluctantQuote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
You can`t say Paddon had slower speed than Mikkelsen after six finished events out of seven and he only lost 11 points or something in the end to Mikkelsen, who did a full season. Yes, Mikkelsen had some issues and restarts (not a single retirement then again), but numbers are numbers.
Numbers show he was slower, points show he scored better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
Sweden - slower 2 places behind
Portugal - just first few stages, Paddon with roadposition advantage and a few secs ahead when he crashed, Mikkelsen with broken powersteering and then engine, call it draw
Sardinia - slower, when Mikkelsen's gearbox broke he was first, Paddon 8. +36s behind
Finland - Paddon clearly faster and fastest Hyundai
Turkey - slower, Mikkelsen was first 40s ahead of Tanak and 1:12 ahead of Paddon when mechanics forgot to put in all screws out of service
GB - slower though only by a few secs, can call it draw
AUS - same pace, 3s difference when Mikkelsen met tractor, same speed on Saturday (except SSS where it rained for Mikkelsen and not Paddon), same speed Sunday morning again before Hyundai ordered cruise
That's Paddon 1 : Mikkelsen 3, if calling all of GB, Portugal and Australia a draw. If you put GB for Mikkelsen (he finished ahead) and Australia for Paddon it goes to 2:4.
Note the number of crashes 1:1 (with tractor on stage)
Number of technical retirements 0:3 (these do have rather big impact on scored points)
:grenade:Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
As usual your over-analysis makes no allowance for the orders or the role each is playing. Having been demoted Paddon's role was not to go for victories but to bring the car home undamaged and in the points. I imagine that his fate should he have failed would have been fairly well explained.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Pound for pound Paddon would wipe the floor with Mikkelsen.
I thought the third car being discussed was who would replace Sordo and Loeb. Second car will be Mikkelsen. Or have I missed something.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
And I also thought Paddon released a video at the start of the season, saying he had only been offered one rally (presumably Finland) and declined. Or did I get that one wrong.
Third car, if Gronholm says Huttenen is still on hyundais books, will likely go to Huttenen if Loeb and Sordo aren't prepared to do Finland surely?
Funny how mknight blames road position/conditions/anything else when Mikkelsen is slower, but completely ignores it when he is faster. Been taking lessons from Ogier's PR!
Lets mention some of the bits he conveniently missed out...
Portugal "a few seconds ahead when he crashed"... Paddon was leading the rally when he crashed on SS7, SS6 results show Mikkelsen in 10th and over a minute behind.
Sardinia Mikkelsen had a good road position while Paddon was wading through a mudbath.
Turkey Paddon was driving strategically to protect the car (quite successfully too seeing as he finished on the podium).
GB similar pace yes, Paddon had clear instructions to hold back and ensure points and was always going to drop behind Neuville (maybe the same for Mikkelsen I guess). It is often his worst gravel rally, doesn't go so well in the mud.
Finland and Aus Paddon was faster while frustrated at how much he was holding back to avoid risk and ensure team points, and looked like he would have had much more speed on tap if allowed to push. He also did it without crashing, unlike Mikkelsen (on both occasions).
BreenQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
You're right on that - but things can change, especially with Hyundai team politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
Many people said before Sweden entries that Loeb doesn´t like it / won´t drive it...
He did.
I expect him to drive Finland also.
Nothing he said before his Hyundai deal can´t be counted.
Only problem is that 6 rallies deal, if he really wants to do only 6, which is he skipping ?
Riiiight, I so enjoy arguing with you cause you accuse me of selective arguments and then top me up with being even more selective ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
Portugal
7.4s was Paddon ahead with better road position (after SS5) when Mikkelsen's power steering failed on SS6 (seems like most common fault at Hyundai last 2 years), and the 1 min drop happened. But hey let's pick positions after SS6, +1
The theme seems to be "Paddon always held back", that surely beats all arguments, impossible to prove just how much he did and equally as impossible to say what speed he would have if he did not.
Anyway even with your counting we get to 2 (FIN, AU) : 4 (SWE, SAR, TUR, GB)
Yes he did, and was slowest WRC except Tidemand and slower than Paddon last year. If they are really so serious about point chances they will rather try to get Paddon or Østberg, especially since Loeb does not have it in his contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
I doubt Mads will drop his Citroen R5 program for a single outing with Hyundai for Finland
Yeah, although his Finland last year wasn't so successful either. And like mentioned here, Paddon's position in the team remains still under question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
I suspect he may end up doing more than that, maybe if we discount the flyaways, Mexico, Argentina, Chile and Australia to reduce the ‘commitment’ anything could be open. That said Chile could be good for him as it’s new for everyone, and after potentially missing Mexico and Argentina, he would also have a good road position.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
I think that you will find that Sweden was the offer that Hayden declined.
It would be interesting to know how many power steering units failed on Paddon's car in 2017, as we all are aware doesn't bag the car in public but for sure there were more than were reported for stage ends.
2018, Paddon was driving to instructions, even to the point of sometimes receiving a txt message just prior to a stage start. This perhaps starts to explain why sometimes his last splits during a stage were slightly off the pace. He was a team player.
Mikkelsen getting dropped was obvious the more I thought about it. How could Hyundai, and Adamo under huge pressure, justify having Andreas in the car on tarmac when the GOAT or one of the better tarmac drivers (sordo) sits at home? Answer is, you can't justify it. Especially after Spain last year when Mikkelsen was miles off his two team mates (and this was after upgrades to the car, of which Neuville and Sordo both said helped a lot especially in the drying/dry conditions). If Mikkelsen couldn't get anywhere close to the best out the car unlike the other two, he's rightfully dropped. It would've been nonsensical to have him over Loeb or Sordo.
Let's wait and see for Corsica - I expect Hyundai aren't as far away as previously, but still need further improvements. But some of the talk here has been silly about the car, it's a very good car. Ogier would've won the title in it in 2017 and in 2018 imo, and you can't win a title in a bad car. Heck it was Neuville's fault he didn't win in 17, he blew two sure fire wins in Monte and Sweden (50pts) in a year he won on tarmac in Corsica. In 18, the car broke in Turkey and Neuville made a costly mistake in GB. Yes they have weaker events but it's a few upgrades away from being a powerhouse of a car.
Also regarding the other drivers not having won in it - is is really a surprise that Sordo/Mikkelsen/Paddon haven't won with the i20?! Genuinely? I don't think so. Neuville is on a different level to his team mates - despite him being a bit disliked on here.
Sordo has won one event in his whole career ffs, and the wrc is at it's most competitive now. Mikkelsen had by far an away the best car for 3yrs or whatever at VW with little competition, was team mate to a mentally broken Latvala, and still only won 3events despite Ogier sweeping the road for two days for a whole year! And Paddon hasn't kicked on after the Argentina win years ago and didn't get the required diff changes for a while. And let's not judge Loeb like he's still on the top top level - he isn't and has said that himself. He's still great but he wouldn't beat Ogier/Tanak or Neuville across a whole year. He was top 3 pace in Mexico (road position) and Corsica (home rally/best tarmac car) but still made little mistakes due to his age and time away when trying to match the top guys. Mistakes he'd have never have made in his pomp. In Spain he didn't take advantage of road position, was nowhere near Tanak, and then made an inspired tyre choice gamble which won him the rally after Tanak's troubles. Again people on here maybe expected him to win events this year, but it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't bar the most dusty of gravel events (as I think Tanak will probably win 5/6 rallies himself, and then you've got Ogier, Neuville etc). Loeb has also said he has a contract to help the team/Neuville. At Citroen he was there for fun first and foremost, the manufacturers or drivers titles didn't matter. If Hyundai are paying him a lot of €€€ then he has to make sure he does the job required.
Only reason you had Evans win an event with the fiesta was because of tyres - that's clear as day. Lappi won in Finland due to Latvala's retirement and Toyota having a totally dominant car there in 2017 (reflected by Juhos pace too). Latvala and Meeke have won events in the Toyota and C3 because Latvala was mentally sound in 2017 and always been an event winner, and Meeke had a win or bust approach and has always been one of the faster drivers until he crashes. Tanak won in the Fiesta because he was on a huge upward trajectory as a driver. Mikkelsen could've even won an event or two in the Hyundai if he didn't hit problems in Australia in 2017, and maybe in Sardinia/Portugal too? Maybe that's being generous to Mikkelsen but it is small margins.
So yes the i20 needs work but not as much as some make out. Mikkelsen just isn't in the top tier of drivers imo. He had terrible pace in the c3 on gravel, and terrible pace with the Hyundai on tarmac. And can't beat Neuville on gravel rallies even when he's had road position advantage. It's time he steps up to the plate, after all he was brought in to challenge for a drivers title alongside Thierry, not be a safe pts scorer like Sordo/Paddon. The fact he's now judged against Sordo/Paddon/Loeb etc says it all, while Neuville continues to demolish him on an almost event by event basis.
Yes! I looked through the wall of text to find your favourite wording and you didn't disappoint. Just instead of domination you used demolish this time.
To stick to your words.. Loeb is being demolished by Neuville and in Sweden even by Mikkelsen (while Mikkelsen in Sweden was closer to Neuville than last year). Off course Loeb now is not the same like 6 years ago, but he is a level slower than last year. Anyway Corsica will be the first event that can be directly compared, but I somehow doubt he'll have top 3 stagetimes whole rally like in C3.
i really admire your determination and nevergiveup attitude
I just wonder if he's getting paid for it!Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
its british autism... nothing to do with determination and other positive values.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Dani Sordo is driving the Rali Serras di Fafe with the R5 car this weekend. The rally consists mostly of the WRC Rally Portugal Sunday roads. Does this imply Sordo is not going to do Rally Portugal because this would be considered as an extra recce round? Or have I understood this wrong?
It's not an extra/illegal recce imo. Not Sordo's fault that they're using the same roads.
I can't imagine rules where that would be allowed and which at the same time couldn't be abused.
What do you mean? If you're taking part in the rally of Fafe, you might have a guess at which stages you're going to do...I don't remember when they published the route though.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
In France, one or 2 weeks before Rallye d'Antibes, there's another small event which uses exactly the same stages. Lots of drivers drive both every year. It has never been considered illegal recce. I think, when in an organized event, it is no problem. IF you were doing a private test on a piece of stage-road, that would be a completely different story. Also where should you draw the line then, you could exclude nearly all local competitors for Rally Portugal...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
WRC P1 drivers?Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
So if they want to make a system like this, it's up to the organizers to put it in supplementary regulations (they're not published yet for Portugal), or up to FIA, to make a list of 'forbidden' events for P1 drivers. I think, at the moment, no rule is broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Events are not forbidden. Roads are.
What the FIA Sporting regulations say
Quote:
RECONNAISSANCE
The presence on a special stage in any way whatsoever of an FIA priority driver and/or co-driver at any time or of any non-priority crew member intending to enter a rally after the announcement of the itinerary.
Quote:
RESTRICTION OF RECONNAISSANCE
Any driver, or his co-driver, who is, or who in the last two years has been a P1 priority driver, who has entered
or intends to enter a WRC rally and who wishes to drive on any road which is used as a special stage in that
rally, may only do so after he has obtained the organiser's written permission. This shall not apply when the
person is known to live in the area. The written permission must then be sent to the FIA. Failure to respect
this rule shall result in the driver being reported to the Stewards.
I think there is a time before the rally where that road is forbidden and considering Portugal will be in late may (I guess) I think Dani can drive wherever he wants in Portugal.
If I remember well Ogier went to Fafe rally sprint 6-7 month before they moved rally portugal back to Fafe area and had Fafe as Power Stage.
EDIT: I only read now Anttil quotes of the rules. The announcement of the itinerary is the moment after which you can't go in those roads. So it will explain eventually the Ogier's case.
And Itinerary for Portugal will wait, nothing else to expect.
I think the itinary for Rally Portugal is allready on their website.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Ok, so no Sordo in Fafe then...Quote:
Originally Posted by wwbroe
It's just a rule question imo. At the time of (endless) onboard watching there is no real gain in that. Specially when the event was run many times before and he will do the other one in R5.
Last Fafe Rallysprint was in March 2014. Rally Portugal returned to North in May 2015. Over a year in betweenQuote:
Originally Posted by AL14