Hope springs eternal
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Hope springs eternal
https://sports.orange.fr/divers/spor...0001d1WZY.html
"At the wheel of his Hyundai, the soon to be 45 years old (he will be celebrating them next week) finished seventh, 1'49 behind winner Ott Tänäk (Toyota), and confided to L'Equipethat he had felt a change from his great time. "The car was fine but I realized that things had changed a lot since my time. Everyone rolls a lot more to the limit than before. With all the views of the on-board cameras, the guys know the specials by heart and they refine each turn. It becomes circuit in fact, it does not leave much room for improvisation and I'm not used to working like that. "
Elena said something like that already in Mexico last year though.
he is in US now.Beware!Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
i do not fall into that category anymore... people advance in life you know, so go ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
Good. Happy to see Loeb drive as much as possible. Not too fussed that Mikkelsen has been brushed aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Im assuming they’ve found a way to break his much talked about contract, so wonder what this will mean further down the line for other events?
What if Loeb will not show anyting special then they shot at their own foot again.
There`s a possibility with every driver, that they will fail. So far, with the current spec., he has won a tarmac event, been fourth in RMC with the i20, crashed in Corsica, but came back the following day with stage wins and second times, worst being 5th and 6th. Outpaced and outplaced Mikkelsen on all outings so you probably get where they hope to be.
On Monte in same car Mikkelsen was ahead of Loeb when he crashed, how does that count as outpacing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
Comparing results in "current spec" as one is retarded. Mikkelsen's tarmac pace in i20 is certainly something else than in C3. Just like Loeb's so far.
Will be nice to see Sordo vs Loeb in same car as we have had comparison in different cars recently. Just like Neuville vs Loeb.
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Anyway for Hyundai this seems like the best choice given the circumstances. Loeb should definitely drive Corsica because of his both historic and last years pace there and to get his feedback on the car. Sordo is better guarantee for a "decent" performance.
However for the results on Corsica it is much more important what kind of development/upgrades they plan before it. Cause if they are on same level as in Spain (or Corsica last year) they will fight for 5-7. (speedwise) no matter the driver. But it's possible they won't have time to introduce anything major before it and already write it off as a development test.
AFAIK Corsica was sure for Loeb when he signed. Actually you can read it as them not believing Loeb will necessarily do well. If they believed in Loeb they could afford "weak" 3rd car. But maybe after the dry stages on Monte they are not so sure and get Sordo in to ensure some usable points.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
I stick to my idea that all those changes will not bring any good.
Lineup changes make sense only in some cases (like for example if you have a half program for some rookie), otherwise you only affect the confidence of drivers, you give them even more pressure and sense of precariety, don't give them time or means to learn from mistakes.
Last but not least, I can't recall any swapping-lineup team winning anything in the last 10 years and I fear they could be more.
Also, I think that they have to do something with their car. It seems that it can be driven only from Neuville. I've never believed that Mikkelsen has became all of a sudden a mediocre driver. Paddon had his own problems for sure but he was a better driver before new i20. Also Loeb seems not much comfortable.
It would be ok if Neuville won championships but he isn't...
But you can read into this latest decision in two waysQuote:
Originally Posted by AL14
1. Let's keep on swapping drivers and saying the car is fine (this was certainly Nandan's policy, both in words and in not introducing any changes on tarmac for a year even after 2017 Spain and 2018 Corsica). Neuville started to get vocal against this when Loeb was signed.
2. We need to change the car and in the meantime have to maximize points (=Sordo in "old" car)
Ogier could win in the fiesta, evans couldn't. Tanak can win in the yaris, latvala and the others can't. Neuville can win in the i20, the others can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
Is it really about the car? Or are mikkelsen and sordo indeed mediocre, and is loeb getting too old?
If hyundai wanted to be sure of the championship, they should have hired ogier or tanak. Their failure to do that and create a dreamteam can only be blamed on themself.
wow, clearly didnt see this decision to come on so early
Evans won in the Fiesta, almost 2nd rally as well. Latvala won 2 rallies in Yaris, including one before Tanak even joined. Lappi won in it as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
In fact I20 is the only one of the 4 WRC cars that only has 1 driver that ever won with it. Fiesta has 3, Yaris 3, C3 2.
There are cars that fit only some drivers, Mitsubishi Evo gr A with Makinen is the perfect example. Other recent one is Peugeot 307 where everyone except Gronholm stuggled (Martin best reference), seems like Nandan was the main engineer there too.
They did hire Loeb, the guy that won the last rally before he was hired. Kicking Neuville and getting Ogier instead in summer 2018 is an interesting idea, but somehow I think Ogier would pick Citroen either way. Tanak was hired when Neuville was dominating (june/july 2017) and at that time still didn't win a tarmac rally.Quote:
If hyundai wanted to be sure of the championship, they should have hired ogier or tanak. Their failure to do that and create a dreamteam can only be blamed on themself.
The cycle here is indeed interesting
2017 -> Sordo and Paddon struggling (each on different events) => hire Mikkelsen and reduce Sordo and Paddon starts
2018 -> Mikkelsen is struggling => hire Loeb, kick Paddon, reduce Sordo (Monte) and Mikkelsen (Corsica) starts
2019 -> ?
You have a point. Especially when you talk about hiring ogier or tanak. When Ogier left VW they had a golden opportunity and they didn't take it because they had already contracts and wanted to preserve balance. But they are there to win championships not to preserve balance among the team...Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Regarding the car normally I agree with you but in this very case we should also consider that every driver beside Neuville struggles in that seat. Sordo is somewhat decent but nothing special. Paddon was rising to become a champion with the previous generation of cars and Mikkelsen was a rally winner. Now in tarmac he is slower than r5 sometimes. I think that it is too big difference and that car has something that suits Neuville and dont' suits other, preventing them to get at least manufacturers points.
I think Mikkelsen will be gone from Hyundai at the end of the season (if not even faster). As it is clear this coorperation isnt working both ways.
Meeke, Loeb and Ogier won in a C3Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Lol, I forgot Ogier...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Then it's 3 different winners for all 3 other cars but only 1 for i20.
But if you take Tänak, Ogier and Neuville out of the equation, how many events have others really won (and won before, during the previous era)?
2017 Sweden- Latvala won, but Neuville unbeatable until his off
2017 Mexico- Meeke took it fair and square, though Citroen was the only car without cooling issues i believe? + road order
2017 Finland- Well, Toyota at its home event was pretty much unbeatable, like in 2018. Latvala with tech. issues, Ogier off early, Tänak with issues, Hyundai with issues like every year. Perfect chance for Lappi.
2017 RACC- Meeke took it, again great roadposition on Friday, combined with speed
2017 GB- home event of Evans, car, driver, tyres...
2018 RACC- Loeb enjoying a good starting position, takes it after Tänak has issues
2018 Australia- Latvala takes it after a massive fight for the title between the top 3, ended in the bushes for Tänak and Neuville, Ogier cleaning himself from 11th to 5th.
A win is a win, but there`s also that a huge amount of luck in those mentioned wins... and bad luck/road order for others... Also have to remember that after those wins all of them have been lost for some time, some even several times (except for Loeb ofc :)).
Only one pattern comes out and that clearly shows that when everything goes according to plan for the top 3, the only ones who can beat them, are their fellow two rivals. And even not then always.
Finland 2017 for Toyota (fastest 2) and Spain 2017 for Citroen count for me. Yes Toyota is fast in Finland no matter the driver, but that is precisely the point. In 2017 Spain Meeke gained so much on tarmac that the gravel gains were irrelevant.
Anyway after reading further comments from Adamo it sounds like his bosses are loosing patience. First two rallies and no win with only 2 podiums and notably slower performance from all drivers than last year. Changing drivers shows he does "something". For Hyundais sake let's hope they also do some development.
And Fiesta wins then? Evans has yet to accomplish another one.
Ok, lets put it this way, excluding again Top 3 and talking about contracted (or now uncontracted) drivers who have drove the new spec a season (more or less).
M-Sport:
Suninen- young and learning
Evans: Not young at all, his fith season in the top class, has one win thanks to an advantage, in a car that took 3 titles.
Citroen: Lappi, young and learning, started his second full season. Apart from that home event nowhere near the win, struggles to get a podium most of the time ("Yes Toyota is fast in Finland no matter the driver" did not apply 2018 to him)
Hyundai
Sordo: first and last victory in a DS3 WRC from 2013, that is a car that has earned several titles and had its latest wins in 2016, when it wasn`t the top car anymore, without big developments definitely. Before that, started in 2006 and again with cars that ate others for breakfast
Mikkelsen: started when he was 16, first car Focus WRC, full seasons in the series since 2013, has managed to take 3 victories, with the help of others, in the best car.
Paddon: was doing great, took his maiden win in 2016 and was looking promising, then RMC tragedy and personal problems hit, nevertheless managed to lead rallies in 2017, only which ended with tech. issues or driving error.
Toyota
Meeke: Fast, capable of winning probably with every car, that can actually win
Latvala: Most experienced of the lot, wins with all the recent cars he has driven,
The more you look at it, the more...
I see a lot of posts on this forum saying "I think so and so will be gone at the end of the year", and I always think "which driver is clearly better and will be available?"
Who would replace Mikkelsen who is actually likely to be available? Are Breen or Paddon clearly better than him? They seem in the same general ballpark.
Ogier and Tanak are clearly better, but it seems unlikely they'll get fired soon. If Meeke succeeds at Toyota he'll say there, and if he doesn't Hyundai won't want him. Rovanpera(!) might make sense as a much longer term thing, but Hyundai seem focussed on the short term.
Seems like you'r lost in your own argument
Point: All other cars than i20 had multiple drivers winning in them
1. Tarmop: Nobody else but Ogier/Tanak/Neuville won on pace
Answer: Latvala, Meeke and Lappi did
2. Tarmop: Only Meeke and Latvala are proven winners
Answer: So what all 3 cars have wins with both proven and "random" winners. Both clearly on pace (like Lappi) and "almost" on pace like Loeb or Evans. I20 has no win either way, with 3 and sometimes 4 cars entering the events.
Funny how you mange to ignore the Ele(-nas)-phant in the room cause he doesn't fit the constructed arguments. You know that guy that you said will fight for podium both in Monte and Sweden.
The struggle of other drivers in the i20 is clear.
Guys Mikkelsen won 2 rallys and got a total of 5-6 podium places in 2016. One and a half years later he is slower than R5s. It simply cannot be only up on the driver. MKnight is right. Second and third drivers on other cars achivied results, hyundai's drivers are fighting with wrc2 on tarmac, driving rallycross or performing much worse than last year.
They have been able to deliver to Neuville a winning car, despite a hard competition from a legend like Ogier, Citroen taking one year for development and Toyota coming with big budget.
But imho they Bigger mistakes have been:
- Not have took Ogier in 2017
- Have developed a car good for only one of their driver who gave them a lot of complaining and 0 championship in 5 years.
- Do Not have a clear lineup.
- Do Not have kept investing in young guns like Huttunen or Rovanpera.
On every event, everywhere, it`s only the top 3, should have been more specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Latvala didn`t win those events on his own pace, could argue about Meeke`s Mexico and Lappi also, but a win is a win, yes.
Jup, said it, thought about it, wasn`t correct. You also ripped sentences from someones crystal ball...
I`ll give you another bone, You yourself threw here: Loeb talking about how good the car was, just that times have changed and everyone, except him (from active drivers), knows the stages by heart. When you`re already at it, some comments about Sordo leading Rally Mexico after day 1 in Mexico 2018, also something that shouldn`t be happening with such a bad car.
Loeb will struggle in Tour de Course. Mark my words.
Mikkelsen didnt forget how to drive on tarmac from one season to another. Going from second in Germany to being beaten by R5´s. The car is a disaster on tarmac for everyone except Neuville. Its as simple as that.
It seems that people always emphasize how bad car is to others instead of finding how good Neuville is. There is some truth in assertion that Hyundai is demands special way to drive but in the end the car is same for everyone. It´s drivers duty to adapt to the vehicle available. When a driver looses to team mate in similar equipment there is no excuses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric
I’d say it’s not great for Neuville either, he is just operating at a very high level and has found a way to make it work better for him. I always get the impression watching the Hyundai car that the front and rear are not working together, that they are always trying to force a balance rather than exploit one that is inherent. All 3 generations of Hyundai WRC have looked to have had the same trait from what I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finne
Neuville is an excellent driver. But right now we were talking about Mikkelsen. And the fact that there is no logic in being second in 2017, to slowest in 2018.
With that said, Neuville has been in Hyundai for 6(?) years. He has adapted his driving to the i20 and the i20 has been built after his wishes and feedback. That doesnt take any glory off the guy, he has made the car suit himself and he is a solid top three driver.
The problem for Hyundai is that Neuville has found a way of driving that almost no one else handles. Ogier, Latvala, Mikkelsen, Loeb, Tanak has the same style, while Neuville is kind of doing his "own thing". And he does it well! But for the manufacture title its not optimal and thats why Hyundai still has 0 trophies in their office in Alzenau.
Thats also why i think Mikkelsen/Paddon/Sordo has an excuse for not being as fast as their team mate.
Lets see what Loeb is able to do with that i20 on tarmac. But as I said; I am pretty sure we will see another Loeb than what we are used to.
lets say it different.
suppose the championship leader doesn't have to open the road, and nobody has to give up with technical difficulties, how many rally's would have been won by someone else than neuville, ogier or tanak in the last 2,5 years?
we all know that neither lappi, latvala, evans, paddon or mikkelsen have the outright speed to beat those 3 a rally on equal terms. only the starting order giving the later starters sometimes huge advantages makes them look better then they are. and in my opinion, mikkelsen and even loeb today belong to that group.
About driving the i20. In Polo Mikkelsen was much more neat than Latvala and drove very similarly to Ogier, same with Fabia and C3. Started like that in I20 too.
This year both in Monte and Sweden he was one of the most sideways guys, like Neuville . And interestingly as a result he is closer to Neuville on pace than last year.
Both of them are slower than last year though. Loeb was super neat in Sweden, like he is used to.... and slowest WRC, bare Tidemand.
He has been sideways like hell since joining the Hyundai IMO, definitely last year. this season he has been less so, as far as i have seen on the videos but still way more than others.
then again, it has been just two rounds but he has admitted himself he has to change his style.
Comparing 2018 and 2019 Sweden, I'd say he was more sideways this year.
This year it looked like Mikkelsen tried aggressively "throw" the car into corners. He was struggling with this style and it was pretty clear. The places I was in Sweden, i20 looked the most unstable car (especially the rear of the car) and it seemed it lacked power coming out of the corners too.
I dont know what the problem Hyundai is having, but they have to react fast, because all other manufacturers are sliding away.
Pre-season Neuville was hopeful of having updates for Corsica (or maybe it was Portugal). Let's see if it actually is going to be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead
He should have softer suspension at rear. Easy solution... :) :)
If it were so easy they would have done it 2 years ago. ;)
It would be nice to know what exactly has happened during the past couple of weeks (between yesterday's announcement and the one which stated Mikkelsen would do all rallies this season). Obviously there's been two rallies, which make you think that maybe the "full season clause" Mikkelsen had (or still has) in his contract is somehow related to results (i.e. x amount of points during x number of rallies with clauses for technical failures etc.). And now that his full season is no longer a full season, will we actually see the modified line-up of Neuville-Loeb-Sordo also in some other rallies later on this year? Paddon's a longshot, but maybe this could even open up the door for him?Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
I still ask who will they send to Finland
Paddon