i don't get why a tuner would develop a bodywork of his own instead of buying the complete car...
to sell their own car, is it so profitable to sell the bodywork, even under the cost cap?
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i don't get why a tuner would develop a bodywork of his own instead of buying the complete car...
to sell their own car, is it so profitable to sell the bodywork, even under the cost cap?
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-...c-2027-so-far/
Some more information regarding the matter.
I suppose the idea is to make it like F1 where a private team can buy the powertrain from a manufacturer but designs the chassis/aero themselves. It will be somewhat more limited in WRC though where the chassis is spec andbthe aero is limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
chassis is "provided" by fia, aero is limited, it's really just about bodywork, but i hope will be enough to lure some people in...Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
(f1 has rewards in money that wrc has not...)
Probably not, a bespoke design WRC27 with a Rally2 engine has 1% in common with a production road car. You could have 20 Toyotas in a rally but with * different body shapes.Quote:
Originally Posted by pedro16
I'm grateful for the update and more info though, thank you to everybody involved.
The design will be, if they built it themselves every car would legally be manufactured by FIA. They might do this but highly unlikely. I'd guess the manufacturers will provide a rolling-chassis as in the drawing here (drawing without powertrain though).Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
I'd also guess a new teams championship goes next to a manufacturers championship like Formula E. Might not even have a complete car available from a manuf who's not entering anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Clownish statement. Didn't you want road relevance? That is 100% rally with 100% road relevance as they are driving 100% production road cars 100% within the confines of traffic law. (Supposedly).Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Sure, I won't argue with you that because their origin is in the buggies I mentioned via SCORE where they still don't have windscreens and sides and put in the same class as the Audis and Raptors by FIA.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Why not just look to WR2C, rally-raids or Bajas where buggies go rallying? That makes them rally cars! Like a Hyundai Ioniq 5 is a rally car if it goes eco-Rallying!Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
For the last time, I don't want to see buggies or prototype rally raid cars in WRC. As we've had confirmation now that, according to your definitions, you're going to be seeing BUGGIES in WRC in 2027, and you're making clownish statements, lets move on.
Huh? It's literally a regularity rally with road cars, not a speed rally. Their special stages are about energy consuption and average speed, so it's not a 100% speed rally not matter how you try to spin it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Sure, as I said I watch buggies when I follow Dakar.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
No, buggies in rally-raid are rally-raid vehicles, not rally cars. No, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 that goes eco-rallying is not a rally car.
Your last sentence makes zero sense, maybe you didn't use enough rhetorical questions that you like to use so much. Go tell rally fans that the stock road cars they use in the EcoRally Cup are actual rally cars. See them laughing in your face as if they just spoke with a clown.
The Audi you said is a buggy is still a car. Check the regs it's built to.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
No simpler definition for 'rally car' then a car that goes rallying. This one is in one of the cups classes and published on the admitted list, and the WLTP surrounding the cup is also published. Check the regs.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
For sure I wasn't confused that ecoRally was a speed rally and never said that it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
It's not based on an available road car, it's not on sale as a road car and cannot be eligible for rally championships. You can call it a car as a broad term. Rest of the world doesn't seem to have a problem to call it a buggy. No, I won't check the regs.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Absolutely not, it's a different discipline. The Eco Rally Cup was once called Cup for Alternative Energies Vehicles... so according to this logic they weren't rally cars back then, but now they are. Some of its events don't even include the word "Rally" in it. No amount of mental gymnastic you can do can make them rally cars. No, I won't check the regs.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Next you'll tell me that the car that brings a politician to a political rally is a rally car, because there's "rally" in the name.
Never said this, never said that, as usual. Yet you said it's a 100% a rally, as if a regularity rally and a speed rally are the same discipline.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
It seems it hasn't dawned on you that this is an international forum. You speak vague and in roundabouts, you use slang, write rhetorical questions. More than once other users have written "I don't know what you mean". Disrespectful, but I'm not surprised about that.
I think you actually mean that old R5 & Rally2 cars will disappear from the higher levels over the next few years. There are already people using Rally2 cars on local single-venue club events - there's nowhere lower for them to go!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
"The WRC27 cars and current Rally2 machinery will run in the same class, with both cars chasing overall rally wins and the overall world championship title."
that was my biggest doubt. im 10000000000000000% happy if we have only R5s for 2027 or so.
Seems like these regulations are still somewhat vague as we still haven't heard any firm confirmation about anyone making a WRC27 car, with the championship less than 18 months away. Normally we hear at least rumours about new entrants years in advance before they actually hit the stages. For those who have been here for awhile, do we all remember the 'village idiots' coming with that new car!!! I wonder how those village idiots are doing now? Oh, that's right, they are winning everything. Anyway, back on topic...
My main concern is will the compulsory 10 cars put tuners off? Totally fine for Toyota or even M-Sport, and I can see where the FIA is going with this, but for a small tuner this is a massive investment without necessarily being about to sell them to customer drivers.
I do think the FIA is doing the right thing by easing the homologation rules and inviting tuners into the mix. Hopefully we will see a new era of WRC as we are seeing a new era in WEC. Teams such as Glinkenhaus, Vanwell and Isotta Fraschini could almost be interpreted as tuners. They were there (unfortunately all withdrawn now) mixing with the established manufacturers like Toyota, Porsche, Ferrari, Peugeot etc in endurance racing which was great to see, but they didn't have to make 10 compulsory cars. Is this going to be the thorn in the side of these new regulations?
I just think that 10 years ago (wow I can't believe it's been 10) Toyota announced that they would join the WRC in 2017 for the new regulations and there was already speculation Kris Meeke would join them...now, it's August 2025 and no manufacturer even from the existing ones can say they'll be there for sure until 2029....yes for sure Covid didn't help, but you'd think that in 10 years...someone would say they're joining, I honestly hope these regulations help or the WRC will die out before the next 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maui J.
In order to homologate one of these cars do manufacturers have to be comitted to entering a full WRC campaign?
If so there's two ways that could go.. either we get more manufacturers competing at the top, or we get fewer manufacturers building rally cars overall (when you consider Rally2)
By "firm confirmation" do you mean new entrants? Because from the "old dogs", Toyota has said/hinted publicly that they are building a car and during Rally Estonia, I spoke with one Toyota member and he confirmed they are definitely building a new car already. When I asked about others, the said that Ford maybe but with Hyundai he said that he doesn't know as I think even in Hyundai no one knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maui J.
https://www.rallit.fi/toyota-pomolta...la-niin-kauan/
"But in general, you can say that it takes about a year to design a car and it takes another year to test it. The rules have been available for six months, so you can tell from it where we are at, Fowler agrees to reveal."
The timescale is just too tight as I said before and Mikkelsen confirmed he has been told by everyone but Toyota.
It looks like the best we can hope for is Toyota WRC27 Cars vs the existing Rally2 Cars.
But how will they feel if their customers in their old Yaris Rally2 car beats them ?!
There is nothing a small software update wouldn't fix :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Supposedly they have the whole season to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maui J.
And imagining it's a 3 car team, with only the team cars the numbers would be already close. 3+3 because of logistics with overseas rounds and 1 or 2 test cars.
i think we are all missing an important point here: fia spent MONTHS in negotiation with several stakeholders trying to decide the 'best way to go' and the final veredict was that 'something like the R5s' would be the way to go. especially due to its incredible sucessful formula.
PLUS (since wrc27 will be "at the same level" in terms of general power), they could count on all the two thousand R5s out there to compete already in monte carlo 2027. they probably never counted on 'having new participants flooding in for 2027 and 2028 with new machines.
sure, we all hope we would have them (i mean... MONTHS spent on negotiations for just toyota to show up with the new car??? wtf??), but the general plan was probably a move to the sucessful R5 formula.
that way all the racers complaining they cant compete in WRC because of the cost and all fans complaining that "only 8 cars in just boring" would both cease.
does this thought makes sense?
And so what?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
And so what?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
It is eligible for WR2C, a rally championship. You said you've seen it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Oh right?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
(All rhetorical)
Rally is rally; maybe you forget WRC is partly regularity rally in classification; time cards, controls and penalties are part of it. There's different ways to classify competitors in rally. You can have rallies where the prettiest car wins or where whoever takes photos of things along the route wins. You could have a Puma Rally1 in a regularity rally or an Ioniq in a speed rally; they both being road cars... in road rallies. Reminder that the context of ecoRally coming up in conversation was road relevance, or in my terms, 'consumer production car relevance'. No amount of mental gymnastics should be necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
The Alternative Energies Cup had other disciplines back in the day besides the rally 'class' that ecoRally Cup was born from. It was circuit racing and speed trials IIRC and they weren't all contested by the same cars and teams. So no, that does not mean they were all rally cars in AEC.
There used to be open cars with platforms built in for politicians to speak to crowds at rallies, back in the day in USA at least. Maybe they were called rally cars.
Try it, you might learn something.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Reckon promoter will back a tuner or two to beef up the entrants?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Still going on with your ridiculous arguments? It has already been expressed, in a much clearer way than how you write, that many consider the presence of a valid related road car essential for a rally car. You don't agree? Too bad for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I don't care how many times you isolate words in a sentence and pedantically say that rally raid vehicles are rally cars. Speed rally is not rally raid and is not regularity rally. Different championships, different disciplines, different cars. At this point you're just wasting people's time, especially when you started the whole "fans who want to mantain a level of road relevance in rally cars shoudl go watch Eco Rally Cup instead" conversation, which has nothing to do with this topic and no rally fan would consider that seriously.
Too bad for everybody if nobody ever disagreed. Also my opinion is that those points are very much related to this thread topic, we didn't get there cordially, but maybe can after some time to reset the tone.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
If there is a promoter . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/new-w...-opens-tender/
“The FIA World Rally Championship is at an exciting moment in its history. Millions of fans around the world are following the action, and new, younger audiences are driving its global growth"
"1.3 billion cumulative tv audience"
.........ohh then why the promoter is leaving ?ohh..... eeeeeeh..... no, its because.... because.... aaaaaaahnn..... ehhh
i guess m-sport will do a new car, they cannot stay in the market with the decommissioned fiesta...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I have my own idea from what I've heard and read, but can anyone give their understanding of why they're NOT just making Rally2 (or Rally2+) Cars the top Class in 2027 ? By this I mean a car based on a road car shell as currently.
i guess for this "tuners" opening, so they don't need a shell, they can buid it themself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Do you mean for the whole period or just for one year?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Why there is still no announcements, Because FIA is too late. Everytime they do something it's too late. Those regs should be fully published years ago. And not throwing only some hints and then negotiate for a 8 months, and then again some hints. How would any team be able to made a good car, especially if that team isn't funded that well as Toyota. And again we hear that they are the only ones that actually started working on a new car. If Mikkelsen is claiming that he is convincing Skoda to join, that only means that they probably will not be here, because they would not wait so long. Probably we will se some new names (really big IF) in 2028 or beyond, and not in 2027 as it's suggested by officials. Right now the series is fragile it could collapse even before it could start well. I'm happy that regs will be somehow open again, but their timeline for decisions is harming this sport really hard. Why mechanics can completely rebuild the car in a few hours which is a hell of a job and those with ties can't decide anything with no deadline at all. All they do is talk for straight 8 hours during their work day. And why does it take 15 years to actually decide anything? I will never understood those offices jobs. No efficiency at all and when there is even that is completely useless.
For the whole next period...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
if i'm understanding this correctly, the current R5s will be allowed to compete as the top class for the next 10 years while these models are "phased out" by the new wrc27 - so...theres that. "R5s are the new top class", in fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
it is a sucessful formula, so FIA is kinda keeping that (since all components for the new cars are the same from current R5s), but adding more safety via the tube frame cars.
its going to take some years for the new machines to be MEGA present around europe - and the R5s will still be there anyway.
and they decided this set of rules also thiking about national and regional championships, so theres gotta be more than we know to it. like, did they talked to these national level entities and pro competitors? probably yes (i hope!)
so.... IN A WAY, R5s are the new class. i imagine the new wrc27 will eventually be stronger, for sure. but stuff like road position will still play a part, no? even if we have 40 R5s and 3 WRC27 Toyotas, i dont think Toyota will win every event, no way.
Yeah, I know all that and get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
But I'm asking why they arent continuing with NEW Rally2 cars built as they are now, based on a road car shell ?
Only Toyota has built one recently (and that was easy for them as they had a rally-ready road car in the 4WD GR Yaris). But the likes of M-Sport Ford, Hyundai & Citroen havent built a new Rally2 car and are still hanging on with cars that are 5+ years old and some not even sold any more.
I assume they've spoken to these and other Manufacturer's and they said they cant build a new Rally2 Car with the road cars they now produce, as M-Sport have said with the Puma, because they're not viable for rallying ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
yes, i'd go with something along these lines too mate. FIA gotta follow some EU guidelines, right? also cultural shift. im not from europe but from the stuff i read, manufacturers are little by little moving away from ICE Hatchbacks. the new bodyshells are all built with other specifications to acomotade hybrids and batteries - and I dont think manufacturers are completely giving up on autonomous driving too (more computers). and they are mostly SUVs.
so thats probably the reason, yes! (long term stuff too)...and we KNOW rally fans would HATE SUVS lol. even if they were "ICE".
and most are either Hybrid (it didnt worked) or EV (that would be the death of the sport for half of the audience, lets be honest)
plus the whole MORE SAFETY from the new tubeframes that FIA must implement.
Cheers. I'm arguing with that YouTube guy who is totally against the spaceframe car for WRC27 and wants to keep Rally2 cars as the top class.
I said if it was possible they would be, that's an easy answer to it, but it's not because Manufacturers cant use the shells of cars they sell nowadays as they're too big or tall.
on facebook i saw the same discussions. im jus...i mean, we are all just guessing here, sure. but that seems a plausible argument: next gen of road cars are all suv hybrids or electric. 'do we want huge suvs rallying'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
tho there are crossovers, they are ok. but they are also all hybrids, eh? you are from britain, not sure if the car market is similar over there. here in south america new cars are ALL hybrid SUVs and electric Sedans. more and more are from BYD and that other chinese brand... "Great Wall something something" ? (cool name tbh)
the smaller 'new car' here is the Renegade lol
It's ironic that Toyota, the team with the last new Rally2 Car, are the first (and so far only) ones committed to a new WRC27 Car. Where would the WRC be without them and their rally-fan boss Mr Toyoda ?!
Funny that when they were negotiating which engine to use from 2022 onwards, M-Sport and Hyundai wanted to use a rally2 engine but Toyota wanted to continue with the current rally1 engine, global race engine. Now Toyota is the only one (so far) that has start developing a car with a rally2 engine.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-i...22-tech-rules/
“DirtFish: Earlier this year, it was clear the manufacturers were divided over the way forward with the Internal Combustion Engine side of 2022. M-Sport and Hyundai favoured a move to a Rally2 base engine, while Toyota wanted to stick with the current Global Race Engine”:)
I don’t know but I interpret from the interview with Tom Fowler that FIA has developed specs for a “global” rally2 engine. Manufacturers build the engine with the same specs and if someone want to use a production engine they can present that to FIA.
https://rallyjournal.com/major-revel...lready-agreed/
4.8.2025
“What I understand is there’s a specific chapter that tells you how to build an engine for the championship. If you want to commit, you follow that chapter – all the information is clearly written down,” Fowler explained.”
“There’s also an appendix that says if a manufacturer or tuner has a different requirement – for a production engine, electrification, or similar – they can present it to the FIA. The regulation could then be adapted to include more people. But as I understand it, no one has made that application, so no extra chapter has been written,” Fowler revealed.”
Illustration of what a Dacia Sandero built to the WRC27 regulations could look like:
https://rallyjournal.com/wp-content/...5/08/Dacia.jpg
And what will be underneath:
https://rallyjournal.com/wp-content/...is-wrc27-1.jpg
https://rallyjournal.com/this-is-wha...pionship-cars/