I know this is OT but how. If anything it shows him as strong president that is doing the best for the sport, not best for the promoter.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
But I hope he will also start to do that in WRC.
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I know this is OT but how. If anything it shows him as strong president that is doing the best for the sport, not best for the promoter.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
But I hope he will also start to do that in WRC.
Fully agree! It's just FOM shortsighted greed that prevents Andretti. But the F1 situation shows that Ben Sulayem can't magically decide and improve things on his own, be it in F1 or rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
As much as 80% of the current Rally1 car will remain unchanged when the World Rally Championship introduces new technical regulations for 2027, according to the FIA.
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/...ions/10546298/
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IMHO the technically easiest solution for a new WRC car, which could be atrractive for the current and new manufacturers, is an EV with CE working as a generator. That concept is known for more than 120 years, it works in many applications and was even used by Audi in Dakar. IMHO with well thought-out rules such cars are much easier and likely cheaper to build than the current ones. You have no gearbox, no super duper racing engine and you don't need large heavy batteries either. On top of that you have an easy way to control torque distribution even without using differentials.
Yes, it's something new and it won't sound like today's car but WRC needs something new. It badly needs something new.
So in princip the same concept as this oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
https://www.google.com/search?q=opel...xEpRYTCIM&ip=1
Basically the same concept as the first ever Ferdinand Porsche's car in 1898... and same as every diesel-electric train.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
PS I didn't read your link because the google search appears to me in Norwegian.
Yes like the Opel Ampera.
While it's a feasible way to get "electric vehicles" competitive in rallying, a serial Hybrid is technically a very bad solution in general. If the people/politics/media would be able to understand what they are lobbying for they'd be very upset that "their' BEV Dakar Audi is just a very inefficient Hybrid with a "evil" ICE.
The big heavy E-Tron had an average fuel consumption in the far worse terrain about 40 litres/100 km. That is definitely less than the current WRC cars. I fail to see why it is worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
Hm might be different in competition but for road cars it was less efficient than a comparable parallel hybrid, an Ampera in normal running was said to use between 7 and 9 liters per 100 km for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Presumably the fuel consumption of the Audi was with a pre charged battery?
Do you happen to know the approximate fuel consumption of a T1+ Toyota/BRX/...?
Nissan is using similar technology on the new X-trail. There might be a future with this technology, when the engine runs on biofuel.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
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Sorry, that's completely different use case.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
Yes, I think so, but 50 kWh battery doesn't change much on the 700 km of range. I guess it can power the car for about 15 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
The E-Tron has 295 litres of fuel, Toyota T1 540 litres. Both run the same stage distance so I guess the fuel consumption even without the battery is at least 30% higher. I guess the main difference is that the electric motors don't burn loads of fuel in anti-lag.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Well if we assume round about 30% more, those numbers could be achieved with a parallel hybrid solution as well no? Anti lag wouldn't be needed either if done right.
Why parallel hybrid? It's much more technically complicated and definitely more expensive solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
In a parallel hybrid you need everything, what pure CE car has, like gearbox, clutch, differentials, propshaft, rear-axle release clutch, race-tune engine and on top of that you add electric motor and battery. When you use EV with CE generator and at least two motors you can skip most of that CE stuff, at least the gearbox, both clutches, propshaft and transmission hydraulics. On top of that you get active torque distribution between the axes which current WRC cars don't even have.
Just look what the parallel hybrid system brings to the current cars. It is very expensive but when it doesn't work the change in stage times is minimal and there is basically no fuel saving either, so what is it good for except for the word HYBRID on the banners?
Because a parallel hybrid works well in other racing applications.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
The current spec system is hardly representative of what could be done with a parallel hybrid. It's as you said just a ad on like the WAE system in LMDh cars, but those cars are far from the be all and end all of what can be achieved.
You can't compare circuits with rallying. On circuits you have ideal conditions. You have very high level of recuperation and you don't need any spare energy because the energy consumption can be precisely calculated for the event. You can never achieve circuit recuperation levels in rallying. You always need much greater energy carried by the car because you have long road sections and much more variable total number of consummed energy per section. You also can't use that heavy batteries beause the cars themselves are in principle heavier. If you put Formula-E battery into the WRC car you get a car which is definitely slower than current WRC cars and quite likely also slower than Rally2. You simply can not built the rest of the car within 500 kg like you can do on circuit. See the E-tron which has 2 tons with what is basically a Formula-E battery.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
Anyway my point stays. I fail to see why pushing for more compicated and more expensive option?
According to Autohebdo Hankook is selected as WRC tire supplier.
That is going to be interesting and exciting if true!Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSS
Seems confirmed now:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hanko...3DclNrrl4kroFg
Nice. Something new
Now all we need is Skoda/Opel/Someone please to announce they'll be joining the championship as soon as 2025!Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
If Skoda come back to the top level it won't be as soon as that. Testing of the new Rally2 car started well over one year before it's debut and that was a category they had experience of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/answe...esidents-call/
Something something, had to scrap rally2 idea as top tier, long story short, rally 1 until 2027.
manus said that already months ago...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
Do Rally 1s really have until 2027? Think about that for a minute. Nobody is joining and it's doubtful all 3 manus keep going till then. Guess FIA is just waiting for someone to force their hand into scrapping Rally 1s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
I do translate that as "We had years but we didn't bother to work out anything and now we try to play heroes coming to save the show."Quote:
“I could see,” governing body FIA president MBS told DirtFish, “I could see something had to be done. Of course I could. And it had to be done quickly. I told David [Richards] I wanted immediate action. I told him to go and select a team for a working group and come back to me with names in two hours. He did that.
“Then we said we wanted answers in two weeks, we got them in days. This is how quickly we can move things. This is what we have to do."
Maybe Fia wants it, but actually is the opposite. manufactures firmly refused to make rally2 top class, Hyundai and Ford decided to stay only with this reg.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
The current regs are something that all 3 current manus agreed to. FIA makes the mistake of trying to keep the current manus instead of opening doors to new ones. It's clear that Hyundai and Toyota are happy with the lack of competition.
FIA´s mistake that they ask what current manufacturers want. Now it is clear that Rally1 will continue until 2027, but FIA has to change the rules radically for the season 2028.
Dirtfish has used a bit misleading headline for this. Kalle actually approves the idea about more powerful Rally2 cars.
The Rally2 on steroids would still be enjoyable to watch.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/rovan...rally2-switch/
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I would say its also misleading to say ‘Rovanpera actually approves of more powerful Rally2’Quote:
Originally Posted by trykmann
The article reads like the question of Rally2 as the top class was put to him and he said no, they would need more power to be exciting enough to watch. I bet if he was specifically asked should Rally2+ replace Rally1 he’d still say no.
That was in his answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
More powerful Rally2 will be less reliable -> redesign -> more cost -> two different classes again or more expensive Rally2Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
Anyway the CE Rally2 are absolutely fine for private teams but useless for the manufacturers because they bring very low marketing value for what they need to promote the most because it costs them hell lot of money and does't sell easily (hybrids and EV).
All this talk about what should be the future top class cars in WRC all stems from the change to the "WRC+" cars in 2017. This then lead on to the Rally1 hybrids from 2022.
In hindsight, both seem to have been a mistake. Very spectacular looking and super-fast, but too expensive and complicated for new manufacturers and private drivers.
The talk of WRC2+ cars for the future makes me think of the 2011-16 WRC cars. These were really all that was needed with enough power, tech and aero to be exciting but also more affordable.
Was there really anything wrong with this sort of action...
https://youtu.be/Q42jT7AsNFE?si=XKxUAeZmPnRhVOlq
Looks good to me but 2016 were much improved on 2011.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Coincidentally you picked highlights of the rally where the winning and third place cars were not entered into the manufacturers.
Looking at same rally entry list you have a lot of privateer RC1 entries without manufacturer support.
Depends on your position if there is a problem or not. I think the rulemakers/promoter saw a problem, amongst other important new things now.
Eddie, you can't judge from your fan's point of view. It's not the decisive one. The world is different than in 2011 and what worked for the manufacturers in that time makes no sense for them now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
how's a price comparison between wrc, wrc'17 and rally1?
is it really that much?
Which Manufacturers ? No new ones have joined the top level for a decade. WRC+ cars saw Citroen pull out, and Rally1 only seems to make sense for two (and a half) makers. And Toyota and Hyundai dont even promote the hybrid element with the word hybrid on their cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
No manufacturer wants 2011 WRC cars, not even the two currently involved. The promoter doesn't want it and FIA also doesn't want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Anyway the target of any change in the tech regs MUST be attracting new manufacturers. Everything else is simply wrong in the current situation.
WRC needs to open back the doors to privateer firms. Prodrive has the capability to produce a WRC level car. Help them do it. Oreca can too. Holzer created a Corsa R5. Melvyn Evans did the Proton and the Mitsubishi Mirage. That's 5-6 cars that can definitely work on WRC level with reasonable budget and minimum manufacturer expenses. Even Richards says in the video with Howard Davies posted here that R1s are going nowhere and R2s are the best solution for now. Ben Sulayem should probably stop fiddling around with Liberty and F1 teams and focus on fixing WRC.