What Happens Next?

[FlatChatRacer]

Heelntoe,

I agree. I have said it other threads more than once, that finance is the issue here.

Champ Car finances are in a dire state and KK seems to want to get out now. Maybe GF wants out as well, but they don't seem to be in agreement on the best way to get out.

There is an easy way for this to end. Just have a few of the Champ Car teams switch to the IRL and all Champ Car series owner discussions with the IRL are moot.

That is why I think NHL, Dale Coyne, Conquest, PCM, Minardi and Walker should all have joint announcement that they will be switching to the IRL for 2008.

Split over, discussions over, end of Champ Car!

[Chaparral66]

I'd be willing to bet that CCWS' finances are in disarray because The Amigos are each spending money on stuff and they aren't communicating with each other. No wonder we can't seem to get reliable info because they are all saying something different from one another.

[ShiftingGears]

What the ***** is going on?!

[Dave Brock]

What the ***** is going on?!

This is the battle cry of the disenfranchised open wheel fan
AND the fact of the matter is.....
for the duration of this "war" not ONE single person has been able to deliver a diffinitive factual answerm for the simople reason that nobody ever knew.
It was all about greed, knee jerk reactionaries & ego.
Now you know the value they have in the orderly function of business. :rolleyes:

[Dalon]

Tell that to the lawyers wringing there hands with glee over the prospect of making some $$$$ over this matter. They will attempt to make a case for this with "...king George's" offer to the OWRS teams, no matter how carefully crafted or delivered that offer was. I am not saying they have a leg to stand on, because that has NEVER stopped a lawyer who smelled blood in the water.

Gary

In most bankruptcy cases, the courts don't allow creditors to go after losses from unrelated companies. Sure, anybody can sue anybody for anything. But Honda and king george can afford good lawyering, and the law would be firmly on their side.

Less than a month ago the US Supreme Court decided (by inaction) that companies complicit in Enron's cooking of the books could not be held accountable. Enron is THE WORST corporate criminal in the history of the US. And these other companies were definitely guilty of helping Enron hide the losses. But the creditors aren't even being allow to sue. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aAQgnckiJ6OE&refer=us

The Supreme Court seems to say that limited proof of fraud isn't enough. That a huge amount of premeditated fraud would be necessary to sue solvent companies for the sins of separate bankrupt companies. The suits like those suggested above would seem to have no chance at all. A lot of courts would probably reject them out of hand.

Now if the creditors could PROVE that the management of the irl was complicit in a pre-conceived plan to steal away assets that should rightfully be theirs, I think almost any court would let king george be sued. Hell, proof of that might be enough to put the corporate heads in the slammer.

But proving that sort of thing is damned difficult. At the very least you'd need someone on the inside willing testify to the corruption. But you'd probably also need documentary evidence. Even george isn't stupid enough to keep paperwork around that could put him in jail.

I'm no lawyer, but I think the suits suggested above probably wouldn't survive a single day in court. They'd cost Honda and george a few grand to get dismissed. In the scheme of things, big freaking deal. Worries about suits like that are probably just fear, uncertainty and doubt being sowed by those who are about to lose their shirts. Honda's and george's lawyers have probably already assured their clients how much of a joke those threats really are.

[ChaimWitz]

In most bankruptcy cases, the courts don't allow creditors to go after losses from unrelated companies. Sure, anybody can sue anybody for anything. But Honda and king george can afford good lawyering, and the law would be firmly on their side.

Less than a month ago the US Supreme Court decided (by inaction) that companies complicit in Enron's cooking of the books could not be held accountable. Enron is THE WORST corporate criminal in the history of the US. And these other companies were definitely guilty of helping Enron hide the losses. But the creditors aren't even being allow to sue. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aAQgnckiJ6OE&refer=us

The Supreme Court seems to say that limited proof of fraud isn't enough. That a huge amount of premeditated fraud would be necessary to sue solvent companies for the sins of separate bankrupt companies. The suits like those suggested above would seem to have no chance at all. A lot of courts would probably reject them out of hand.

Now if the creditors could PROVE that the management of the irl was complicit in a pre-conceived plan to steal away assets that should rightfully be theirs, I think almost any court would let king george be sued. Hell, proof of that might be enough to put the corporate heads in the slammer.

But proving that sort of thing is damned difficult. At the very least you'd need someone on the inside willing testify to the corruption. But you'd probably also need documentary evidence. Even george isn't stupid enough to keep paperwork around that could put him in jail.

I'm no lawyer, but I think the suits suggested above probably wouldn't survive a single day in court. They'd cost Honda and george a few grand to get dismissed. In the scheme of things, big freaking deal. Worries about suits like that are probably just fear, uncertainty and doubt being sowed by those who are about to lose their shirts. Honda's and george's lawyers have probably already assured their clients how much of a joke those threats really are.

Dalon, what you wrote makes sense. The hysteria and fear that is being spun up by the fanatics has the scent of desperation and mean spiritedness. The fact that Mark C. posted and then promptly removed the rumor suggesting a legal Amrageddon for Tony George implies he doubted the source feeding him the information (Paulie G. String?).

Speaking of sources and Paulie, several have told me that he was completely caught off guard by all of this and has been working overtime to kill the deal (just like he did in 2006). I have personally seen his skills at stirring up hate and mischief. He has a few allies (including the SCCA refugees) and he has had Forsythe's ear for a while so any time things get deeply delusional and ugly I tend to think he is behind it.

Think about what happens to him when all this comes crashing down as it soon will: He will be less than zero.

So, the truth is that all these flim flam men need to go and nothing will change that. They have been found out and everyone but them can see it. It is nice to know that KK can now see it too. The JDS Uniphase trial may have given him perspective and caused him to reconsider how he spends the remaining years of his life. I can't imagine it would be his desire to spend it in the company of Paul Gentilozzi, Steve Johnson and a fellow named Paper.

[Lousada]

Wow a thousand replies and we still don't know the answer from the topic title ;)

[fan-veteran]

We still don't know what exactly happened 13 yaers ago.... :)

[Latka Gravitz]

Hadn't seen a link to this on this forum yet:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080213/SPORTS0107/802130492/1052/SPORTS01

Contains an interesting bit:

If Champ Car collapses, Walker's team will be one of nine Champ Car teams representing 15 cars the IRL will try to bring into its fold. Walker believes only one team is certain to join the IRL: Newman Haas Lanigan, which fields cars for Justin Wilson and Graham Rahal.
Everyone else, Walker said, will have a tough decision.
"It's going to be very difficult to make the switch -- financially, technically and time-wise," he said. "Maybe half (of the teams) have the resources to do it and could be there, but the rest of us are going to struggle.
"Some may want to give the effort but some may not, and they'll just give up (and disband)."

[garyshell]

Dalon, what you wrote makes sense.

And since when has sense had anything to do with lawyers suing folks and making outrageous claims?

Yes I agree, Dalon makes a lot of sense. But I don't share his optimism that the lawyers will act in this way.

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

People usually do what is in their best interests so what will happen will happen. The point is that it is unlikely that TG will suffer a loss here. Anyhow, here is a link to Robin Miller's latest on what happens (or not) next:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/irl-champ-car-unfication-frustrations/

[gofastandwynn]

The Rahals weigh in on the talks:http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/autos/stories/2008/02/13/irl-champ_car.ART_ART_02-13-08_C3_019BFUS.html?sid=101

Some quotes:

Reports in the past week have indicated the unwieldy 13-year run of competing open-wheel racing series in the United States might be close to ending, with a merger or, perhaps more likely, an absorption of Champ Car by the Indy Racing League.

Bobby Rahal is a co-owner of Hilliard-based Rahal Letterman Racing, an IRL team, and a three-time champion in Champ Car. His reaction? Call him back when it's a fact.

"This is only about the 15th time or so this kind of talk has happened over, what, the last 13 years?" Rahal said yesterday. "So when I see it, I'll believe it."

This time, it seems more serious. His son Graham Rahal, preparing for his second season as a Champ Car driver with the Newman-Haas-Lanigan team, has picked up on the vibes.

"Something is going to give this year," Graham said. "Call me crazy, but I truly believe this is the last year of the split."

There's a chance it could happen in time for this season if a few hoops can be negotiated. The IRL season opens in late March and Champ Car in mid-April.

For instance, it has been reported that the IRL would like to include on its schedule this year at least three Champ Car road races: the long-running Long Beach Grand Prix; a race in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada; and one in Surfers Paradise, Australia. But there is a conflict with the Long Beach event April 20 and the IRL race on April 19 in Motegi, Japan.

That's why IRL founder Tony George traveled to Japan last weekend to persuade officials of Honda -- the sole engine provider for IRL and promoters of the Motegi race -- to move the date. Preliminary reports indicated the meeting went well.

Another problem might be the dissolution of Champ Car. The series has existing contracts for other races this year, including the Cleveland Grand Prix, a fixture since 1982.

All of the races won't be taken in by the IRL, which has 16 events, including at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course in Lexington on July 20.

But a melding of the series could generate a starting field of 24 cars or more. As incentive, George offered Champ Car team owners free IRL-type chassis and Honda engines for the coming season, plus the guaranteed $1.2 million that existing IRL teams will get this year, as long as the Champ Car teams agree to stay at least two seasons.

"I think (the merger) eventually is going to happen, one way or the other," Bobby Rahal said. "I mean, if I was a team owner in Champ Car, how could I depend on that series?"

Even his son can see the writing on the pit wall.

"I used to say specifically that I wanted Champ Car to live and I wanted the IRL to die off, but the truth is, the IRL isn't going to die off because they've got the Indy 500," Graham Rahal said. "Right now, the way I look at it we need to have one series, whatever way we can achieve that."

Then there is this update from Curt Cavin of the Indy Star


It's 11 a.m. and I've checked all my sources, including the bankruptcy court, and there's no news to report. Interestingly, Tony George left for England to attend Scott Dixon's wedding. Maybe he made a stop somewhere along the way, but I don't see anything happening from the IRL's perspective until early next week at the earliest. As for Champ Car, there were the usual number of cars there yesterday when I made my rounds, and certainly no evidence of anyone packing boxes and moving out. As for talking with key CCWS officials, most of them haven't returned phone calls in a few days. So, we'll see.

[indycool]

Probably true, Starter. Think they'll try to get things quited down first.

This comes from an Edmonton radio station.....ugh......

http://www.630ched.com/news/news_xml.cfm?cat=1&rss=1&rem=85661&red=80110923aPBIny&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm

[Dalon]

And since when has sense had anything to do with lawyers suing folks and making outrageous claims?

Yes I agree, Dalon makes a lot of sense. But I don't share his optimism that the lawyers will act in this way.

Gary
This isn't about lawyers acting honorably, it's about the law.

If CC goes bankrupt, US legal precedent would make it extremely difficult (my guess is "nearly impossible") for those put out by ChampCar's failure to sustain viable lawsuits against the IRL or Honda.

Sure, there are caveats. For instance, if there is real, provable, pre-meditated, documented, complicity by the IRL or Honda to defraud ChampCar's creditors, there "may" be some way for the creditors to go after them. Surprisingly, even that is not guaranteed because recent Supreme Court sentiment suggests that the fraud hurdle is EXTREMELY high.

Yes, bad lawyers can make life hell for individuals and small companies. But big companies usually swat away that sort of thing without very little bother. The lawyers for ChampCar's creditors could act as nasty and underhanded as they like. It probably won't matter, because if CC files for bankruptcy, outside some extraordinary circumstances, the courts just don't let creditors go after other companies for losses incurred by another company's bankruptcy.

The IRL's negotiating to buy assets from a nearly insolvent company doesn't come close to reaching the threshold for fraud. Because it isn't fraud, it's business. Failing companies do all kinds of deals to stay afloat. There are limits. ChampCar's owners couldn't just sell off everything of value, pocket the money and declare bankruptcy. Well, they could, but the courts would own their asses and probably put them on the hook personally for the creditor's losses. For rich guys like Forsythe and Kalkhoven, a breech of that corporate shield would be the last thing they should be willing to risk.

The only third parties that "might" be in for some serious legal trouble would be Forsythe and Kalkhoven. They should be protected by their layers upon layers of LLC's. But it's possible that they may have made done something stupid. They could have used personal funds to pay for stuff, or made commitments to creditors outside their corporate protection. Since both of them are worth a ton of money, if that happened the creditors might be able to wrangle some money out of them.

Again, I'm no lawyer. But in my experience, Honda and the IRL would have almost no legal worries over ChampCar bankruptcy. Forsythe and Kalkhaven "might", but considering how they were very successful businessman before they ever saw a race car, my guess would be that both of them are very well insulated against any legal action.

[FlatChatRacer]

Well Dalon,

I am willing to bet that Champ Car/OWRS is heading for Bankruptcy, unless Gerry Forsythe decides to buy out the other owners.

I cannot see any other outcome in 2008. My opinion of course.

[ChaimWitz]

FlatChat, you seem to have a firm grip on reality so how did you get mixed up in all of this? The final drum roll is about to start. Get ready for the final dance of the Penguins.

[Chaparral66]

I think what might happen next is that both series will come out with a statement that they couldn't work out the issues for 2008, and instead will now concentrate on 2009.

Note to Dr. Jack Miller: Congratulations! Your thread just went over 1000 entries. What are you going to do now? When you wish upon a star...
Oh, sorry, got carried away there for a sec. We haven't heard from you in quite a while, Dr. Jack Miller. What do you think of these recent events?

[FlatChatRacer]

ChaimWitz,

I work in Investment Banking and my training as an Accounting and Finance major has defined the view I tend to take on any business. It has to be a viable proposition.

I look at OWRS/Champ Car as a business that in 2004 had moderate potential for success in it's field. Not huge potential, but moderate, given the economic climate at that time and the prognosis for the future.

I tried to get my Bank(Top tier US house) involved in the series in 2004. I was a fan and our marketing department were interested. However, that did not work out for one reason or another.

Anyway, since early 2006 the series has taken a turn for the worst. On balance, the positive decisions have been overwhelmed by the negative ones.

I have followed the series decline and based on what I do know, I am able to deduce by logical inference using my business acumen, that it is in deep financial trouble.

At this stage the only way OWRS will survive, is if someone decides to donate several hundred million dollars to keep it going. Unfortunately for us fans, I am struggling to see who will step forward and be so charitable towards OWRS.

The only thing that will save Champ Car is charity, because as a viable business it has failed!

[ChaimWitz]

ChaimWitz,

I work in Investment Banking and my training as an Accounting and Finance major has defined the view I tend to take on any business. It has to be a viable proposition.

I look at OWRS/Champ Car as a business that in 2004 had moderate potential for success in it's field. Not huge potential, but moderate, given the economic climate at that time and the prognosis for the future.

I tried to get my Bank(Top tier US house) involved in the series in 2004. I was a fan and our marketing department were interested. However, that did not work out for one reason or another.

Anyway, since early 2006 the series has taken a turn for the worst. On balance, the positive decisions have been overwhelmed by the negative ones.

I have followed the series decline and based on what I do know, I am able to deduce by logical inference using my business acumen, that it is in deep financial trouble.

At this stage the only way OWRS will survive, is if someone decides to donate several hundred million dollars to keep it going. Unfortunately for us fans, I am struggling to see who will step forward and be so charitable towards OWRS.

The only thing that will save Champ Car is charity, because as a viable business it has failed!

FlatChat, Thanks. What you wrote sums it up.

[ChaimWitz]

Hey, I just realized Sanguin never got back to us all to share the business premise and viability of ChampCar going forward. Hmm, I wonder why? It seems that he must be distracted. Perhaps this item from Pressdog explains it:

February 13, 2008

Doctors Report Alarming Increase in Swallowed Tongues, "Spaz Attacks"

Emergency rooms in the greater Indianapolis area have been flooded by a an outbreak of oddities according to multiple sources inside the medical community.

"This morning we had seven swallowed tongues," said one intern. "That's just *$%#@ed up. I mean, what would make someone swallow their tongue?"

Further investigation revealed a litany of bizarre events. Among the things reported in the greater Indy area:

16 spaz attacks
11 knipshun fits
9 cases of the vapors
21 incidents of sustained black flashes
6 life-threatening hyper ventilations
20 cases of uncontrolled frothing at the mouth
7 case of patients choking on their own vomit
4 cases of patients "nearly ****ting themselves to death"
15 cases of spontaneous loss of bladder control
Perhaps the most alarming was what doctors called "the birth of seven cows" in their emergency rooms.

"I'm not kidding," said a distraught E.R. doctor. "This woman came in and she was obviously in labor. Next thing I knew someone screamed 'she's having a cow' and, bam, there it was on the floor. A Holstein. She named it Kevin. Then it got really weird 20 minutes later when a 24-year-old man wearing an IndyCar series T-shirt came in -- and had an even bigger cow."

The cow birthing prompted the chief of medicine at a Indy hospital to declare it "the ***** thing I've ever seen."

The IndyCar T-shirt turned out to be the tip that investigators needed to make some sense of out of the bizarre events.

"Turns out all these people who were having knipshuns and frothing at the mouth and flopping around the floor like fish were open-wheel racing fans," said Lt. Peter Dormster of the Indy police. "We got a couple of Champ Car fans in isolation right now. Wearing paper suits."

Dormster explained that "paper suits" are literally jail jumpsuits made out of paper. Since the suit will tear easily, it cannot be used to hang yourself. "All we gotta hear is 'if this is true, I may hang myself' and we have their shoelaces, belts and they're stripped and put into paper suits."

"When we suggested that everyone take a break from the online news sites, blogs and forums -- just put down the Internet and slowly back away -- they became wildly violent," Dormster said. "We had to Taser a few of them. It was tense there for a while."

Wild rumors also circulated that some mainstream Indy media reported they were "six to nine inches shorter" recently. "We looked into it," said one medical professional. "Turns out it wasn't that big of a deal. They'd just been scooped repeatedly. They should grow out of it eventually."

[pits4me]

That may well be true, as long as they can make some $$$$. But a lot of those any more are on contingency.............the GOOD lawyers get some bread up front.

Or there is large amount of "principle" in their wallet. This fight could get very ugly, especially if there's an opportunity to publicize premeditated collusion and wrongdoing beyond any normally acceptable business framework.

[indycool]

Just what "premeditated collusion" would be either wrongdoing or illegal?

[ChaimWitz]

Okay, who cares what the denialistas want to believe? AR1 is reporting the following which fits with what I continue to hear.

"Champ Car to file for bankruptcy to facilitate merger UPDATE #10 As this rumor bounces back and forth between a go and a no-go for the merger, today we heard from three different sources that the deal is done."

So, what happens next?

[Chaparral66]

We wait and see.

[FlatChatRacer]

Chaparral66 and ChaimWitz,

Indeed, What Happens Next?

I have a hunch that we will have some definitive news within the next week.

PS: Does anyone know what the official deadline date for registering an IRL team and driver is?

[indycool]

Much like CC, don't think there IS one just to go racing.....maybe for the TEAM program or something. Indy's entry deadline is usually early April but haven't heard if it still is or not.

[ChaimWitz]

Based upon recent events, common sense dictates that there is a go/no go logistical deadline for something and I suspect it has everything to do with Long Beach and Motegi. I can't see how it is in the best interests of anyone involved to announce the plans regarding these events until the business issues are resolved between the CCWS and the IRL.

It is clear that the Amigos are under severe financial pressure with thier "investment" in OWRS so they want to cut their losses and thus avoid running the 2008 season therefore I believe it is now certain that Sebastian Bourdais will soon be forever remembered as the last Champion of ChampCar.

As detailed elsewhere in this thread, I also believe that very few, if any, CCWS races make money for the promoter and many are "free to the promoter" shows so closing down CCWS isn't the same as abruptly closing down the IRL or ALMS would be. That coupled with the likelihood of multiple teams leaving the CCWS (4-8 cars) means that there is nowhere left to hide from reality for the Amigos.

The one race that matters most to them is Long Beach because it is the only one that has any leverage left and it is likely the only CCWS race that has a prayer of turning a profit so the Amigos are looking to salvage it. This puts pressure on TG and Honda (ironically) regarding Motegi's conflicting date with the Toyota grand Prix of Long Beach. One way or another, from the Amigo's POV, the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach must run. If not, I suspect that they probably lose their right to operate the race. TG and Honda hold the keys IMHO.

Once the deal is done to end the short, deceptive life of the OWRS, those involved will choose the best option to unify the sport. I imagine the options include:

1) Postponing or canceling this year's Motegi IRL race;

2) Running a last-ever ChampCar race at Long Beach while the IRL races in Japan and allowing points from either event to count towards the unified IndyCar Championship;

3) Holding the race at Long Beach as an exhibition event with 16 Champ Cars in a final race with eight Champ Car drivers and eight IndyCar drivers flown from Japan immediately following the race at Motegi on Friday evening;

4) The 2008 Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach Sunday Feature race becomes the American Le Mans Series race;

5) The 2008 Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach is run with Mazda Atlantic Cars!

All these options have costs attached to them and the $64,000,000 question is who will pay for whatever scenario is chosen?

One way or another, I believe something like what is outlined above will come to pass. I know many of you want the 2008 ChampCar season to happen but IMHO it simply makes no financial sense for the Amigos to keep the deception going so they won't. The chin music has stopped and we may have just seen ChampCar's last tango in Sebring.

Perhaps Sanguin, Clydekart or another brave CCWS defender-to-the-ender would like to argue otherwise here. My sense is that time is short but I do invite the counter argument because it would be wonderful to have it memorialized here for all to see when the odd story of OWRS does all finally come to an inglorious end this week.

To those of you who think I take pleasure in the death of our once great series, I don't. All this could potentially damage many people and businesses I care very much about. I still have a passion for what CART once was and my appreciation for the drivers and circuits that continued to make the CCWS something worthy of interest and respect lives on. The truth is I don't like or trust the Amigos after dealing with them first hand. Now the rest of the world gets to see why.

I will leave you now with the lyrics from a song by The Doors:

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes again

Can you picture what will be
So limitless and free
Desperately in need of some stranger's hand
In a desperate land

Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah

There's danger on the edge of town
Ride the king's highway, baby
Weird scenes inside the gold mine
Ride the highway west, baby

Ride the snake, ride the snake
To the lake
The ancient lake, baby
The snake he's long, seven miles
Ride the snake
He's old


Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHFK1yKfiGo&feature=related

[indycool]

Good post, ChaimWitz....no matter how many of us post what we think is going to happen, you list five options and for all we know, there could be 10 or more others. There's a thread at another forum where many different people, four pages worth, have mapped out what they think (and more likely, hope) a melded schedule would look like.

When you combine the necessities of a financially sound and creative promoter doing HIS schedule, the melded series doing its and at the same time working with ABC/ESPN's schedule-makers, you have a mass of variables. (Some Ph. D. mathematician can multiply all those back and forth plus available race dates and see how many combinations can exist.)

It would appear that the Long Beach-Motegi issue was the big one in the discussions, but Clarke used the term "optimistic."

Time will tell, but I agree it should tell us shortly.

[nanders]

My sense is that time is short but I do invite the counter argument because it would be wonderful to have it memorialized here for all to see when the odd story of OWRS does all finally come to an inglorious end this week.

I like it, a prediction.

I hope it all ends soon.

[jimispeed]

I like it, a prediction.

I hope it all ends soon.


I don't agree....

It's a terrible way to end it....

Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die....

More time is needed to secure that...

[ChaimWitz]

I don't agree....

It's a terrible way to end it....

Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die....

More time is needed to secure that...

Okay Jimispeed, whatever.

The truth is that The Champ Car World Series has twice failed to prove its case as a viable business to teams, drivers, sponsors, manufacturers, TV partners, promoters, the media and the vast majority of the world's racing fans. More time won't change that.

Oh, and this is not a merger. It is the consolidation of a failed business into another business that is far more viable. To color it as something else is intellectually dishonest. This isn't a TV sitcom that is being cancelled and can somehow be revived by a fanatical online fan campaign. Sorry. The Four Stooges has been dumped and it ain't comin' back.

In my view (and I am far from alone) ChampCar does not deserve anything other than the fate created for it by the blind greed and blustering hubris of The Amigos. When it all finally goes Tango Uniform it will truly be the end of an error.

[tbyars]

I don't agree....

It's a terrible way to end it....

Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die....

More time is needed to secure that...

Jimi, what part of THERE IS NO MONEY LEFT is that hard to understand?

If there was money left, do you think the Amigos would be looking to get out?

As far as CCWS "deserving" to survive, you should know that in ANY business, nothing is deserved, it is earned. Unfortunately, the poor management of the Amigos has probably removed much of that "deservidness" from the series, and future events will probably reflect that.

Time, in this case, is money. There is none of either left for CCWS, IMO.

[Cart750hp]

Jimi, what part of THERE IS NO MONEY LEFT is that hard to understand?

If there was money left, do you think the Amigos would be looking to get out?

As far as CCWS "deserving" to survive, you should know that in ANY business, nothing is deserved, it is earned. Unfortunately, the poor management of the Amigos has probably removed much of that "deservidness" from the series, and future events will probably reflect that.

Time, in this case, is money. There is none of either left for CCWS, IMO.

Amen to that, tbyars.

You know what's fun to watch this 2008 in CC? I am hoping to see a cancelled race, another article that the amigos are not getting along, and teams moving to IRL or anywhere. How do I know? Look in the past 4 years. As long as these clowns are still own and run this series, 5 bucks says it's getting worse and worse every year for the series, sadly. If I see Tony Cotman somewhere, I'll buy him a beer. I suggest some of you do that too. Buy him a beer for leaving his executive job working with his hands tied up. Sad to see where CC is now. But it's all business and that's the reality.

If I'm TG, I'd wait til 2010 until the Amigos are selling CC in ebay.

[FlatChatRacer]

Indycool and ChaimWitz,
Thanks for the information and extrememly insightful and intelligent posts.

Tbyars,
I don't think you should be too hard on Jimispeed. We are all fans of Champ Car/CART, and it is very distressing to see what is unfolding right now. You know, it really should not be ending like this, but the reality of business can be harsh.

I hope Jimispeed will one day see an AOWR series that looks quite close to what he would like. Keep an open mind Jimispeed and you may see the IRL change their cars to be more aesthetically pleasing to the eye (Lola/Reynard circa (1997-2001), more road, natural terrain and airport courses on the schedule, and finally more American and Canadian drivers.

Finally to Cart750hp,
Please don't say that this is funny to watch, because it isn't. I know you don't mean to laugh at the hundreds of people who will struggling to find work and therefore pay bills in 2008, due to Champ Cars financial situation.

Believe me, all the people who have depended on Champ Car for direct and indirect employment will not find that work in the IRL, ALMS or NASCAR. A few will, and quite a lot won't.

These are difficult times for those people. Let's be sympathetic and grateful for all their hard work since 2004.

[Cart750hp]

Indycool and ChaimWitz,
Finally to Cart750hp,
Please don't say that this is funny to watch, because it isn't. I know you don't mean to laugh at the hundreds of people who will struggling to find work and therefore pay bills in 2008, due to Champ Cars financial situation.

Believe me, all the people who have depended on Champ Car for direct and indirect employment will not find that work in the IRL, ALMS or NASCAR. A few will, and quite a lot won't.

These are difficult times for those people. Let's be sympathetic and grateful for all their hard work since 2004.

I think I'm over being sympathetic about this situation. For me, I'm in a point where if you are associated with CC and can continue on working under these circumstances for the past 4 years, it's no longer CC's management fault when worse come to worst. Sure, employment is hard but there is no reason not to find one 2-4 years ago. And with what's going on in CC as we speak, ever thought of sending their resume somewhere else? I'm being sarcastic, of course, to how the CC ownership and management are still continuing on. For me this is more than a joke. For the people who are working or hanging on, maybe they could've start checking their options 4 years ago. Just my opinion, of course.

[indycool]

FCR, just IMO, but I think the idea presented in the CART bankruptcy hearing about how many jobs would be lost, and that idea presented again now, has been A) overpresented in number, and B) is constantly present in major league sports.

A vendor of widgets or crabcakes isn't going to go out of business if the Grand Prix of Waxahatchie doesn't take place. He's going to do his business and try to find somewhere else to sell widgets or crabcakes.

Mechanics, team receptionists, PR guys and gals, marketing people....they move around all the time.

It's the professional sports world. Mike Bibby just got traded from Sacramento to the Atlanta Hawks for four players. Those four are expected to be in some city Tuesday to play for the Kings. Remember to pack your underwear and toothpaste and your plane leaves in two hours and the equipment manager is on the phone to ask how you spell your name and what size jersey you wear and what number you want.

How many players go to camp with an NFL team? 80-90? They can keep 53 plus six, I think, on a practice squad at low pay. 30-odd people out of jobs in "X" number of cities on cutdown day. Some go somewhere else, some sell insurance.

This is a sports world that the fan doesn't see, an EVENT world that a fan doesn't see. But to say the clerk at the Hyatt in Toronto is going to lose his job if there's no CC race there is ridiculous, IMO.

[FlatChatRacer]

Indycool,

I am not referring to the clerk in a Toronto Hotel or any other Hotel where Champ Car has pitched a tent before.

I am talking about the mechanics, engineers, marketing and other professionals who are associated with Champ Car. Some of those people will lose out when the dust finally settles on this mess.

However, to take CART750hp point about looking for a job. I have to agree that if you are a forward thinking employee of Champ Car, then your resume/CV will already be doing the rounds in other series or another industry altogether.

I am just trying to make the point that this is NOT fun to watch! IMO of course.

[indycool]

Oh, true, some will miss, some will luck out, some new people will be hired. There'll be a scramble. The teams that are viable now will be viable in a melded series but most likely, there'll be fewer teams. Some of those teams are volunteer-type efforts, anyway. Matter of fact, how many drivers in CC aren't paid?

[ChaimWitz]

So, this is finally "it". The Split is all but over and we all (most of us, at least) move forward together. My hope is that in few months we will all ask ourselves "what took so long?". I also hope the sport's leaders remember to ask themselves the question that Dr. Jack used to start this thread. "What happens next?" is now what everyone should be focused on. Yesterday I took a moment to re-read post number 1 in this thread. I suggest you do as well. Please reflect on what we have all lost in the 14 years since this sad argument began and then reflect on what we have to gain in the century ahead. Here's is to a new day and a unified future for our sport!

[nanders]

Dr. Jack, Does this mean another "Crest" backed effort? :)

[indycool]

Aw, I don't think so, nanders. Last I heard about Dr. Jack, he was into flying airplanes now in addition to his dental practice.

[FlatChatRacer]

If the early reports hold true and the split really is at an end, I will celebrate heartily with my friends this week.

The best and most satisfying occasion this year will be the Indy 500, with a full and competitive field of racers, with Paul Tracy taking the chequered flag and drinking milk in the Winners circle!

That would be a wonderful story and make great copy.

[Chaparral66]

If the early reports hold true and the split really is at an end, I will celebrate heartily with my friends this week.

The best and most satisfying occasion this year will be the Indy 500, with a full and competitive field of racers, with Paul Tracy taking the chequered flag and drinking milk in the Winners circle!

That would be a wonderful story and make great copy.

I'd like to see it end as well, open wheel has lost too much ground to NASCAR. But now, we have to consider what kind of series we will have as result.

[indycool]

Chap, I think you're going to see a stable series which must, over time, gain more widespread attention, not from us hardcores on the boards, because we are very few in the big picture of things. I think the FINANCIALLY stable sites are going to get the dates and it's important that the promoters also grow with the series. It's important that the teams and drivers grow with the series.

When a schedule comes out, everybody isn't going to be happy, but in truth, not many of the CC sites were making money, either as track rentals or temporaries. So, not many of them will be included. A Road America was scheduled all over the CART map and never had a solid, stable date in its history, yet made it with CART when the series was together, and then was a track rental when CC went back. As much as I like Road America, it's likely to be awhile before it makes a deal again because it was treated badly by CART and CC just didn't draw there paying its own way. Laguna, the same way.

As much as I like Phoenix, when ISC took over, what was built in Phoenix with the Copper World Classic and a traditional March Indy car date got jacked around and both were minimized and pretty much killed. Hopefully, in time, the new "one" series will grow back to be popular there...and at Michigan.

So, I think almost everyone will find some little fault with whatever becomes of an '08 schedule, something they don't like, and the start of a stable schedule will come in '09, and that will most probably gore some oxen, too.

But finances, availability of schedule, television availability and promoter interest will be the benchmarks of what leads to a schedule....not 1, 10 or 100 of us saying on the boards that we need Road America or Phoenix or it's a disaster.

[SoCalPVguy]

I don't agree....

It's a terrible way to end it....
Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die....
More time is needed to secure that...

Unfortunately your are incorrect in your assumption that "Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die...." and "More time is needed ..."

1) This is NOT a merger of equals - it is a surrender by the amigos after squandering very possible opportunity to succeed since buying the series in 2004.

2) CCWS is broke or close to it and cannot pay their bills now, no way they would even complete the 2008 season at this rate - there is NOT time to implement a long-term phase-in combination of the two series.

Not a TG fan here; but a businessman who knows "when to say when". Bite the bullet: take a few steps back, regroup (i.e suffer the crapwagons for a while), rebuild the popularity of the Indy 500, re-formualize the product (progessive cars & engines) in a year or two, attract new sponsors to a unified series, attract new venues (possibly some old CART locations), drop bad (possibly some old IRL locations) locations, attract some 'known' American drivers, increase TV exposure, increase marketing, and in about 10 years AOWR could (and I emphasize "could") be back on the road to success - the damage of the split has been so bad that it will take that long.

I am very sorry to see you and long-time valued fans and forum posters like Blancvino leave open wheel racing due to a petty hatred of TG or any other entity or individual.

CART first then CCWS had every chance to sieze the moment and bury the IRL but could not do so for two reasons: 1) They made all the wrong moves and I do mean "all", and 2) They did NOT have the Indy 500. It was inevitable.

Work your way through the five phases of grief (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance) and support the new effort - it cannot be any worse that what we've gone through the past 12 years.

[ChaimWitz]

The next few days should offer up some memorable quotes. Here is my favorite from last year:

"How long is my commitment (to CCWS)?" Kalkhoven replied. "How long is my life?"

So for me, "what happens next" includes finding a quote to top that!

[beachbum]

Just for fun, I went back and read post #1 on this thread written almost 6 months ago.

It initiated a firestorm of debate, argument, attacks, support, and even a few "timeouts" for some posters who got too "involved" (we know who we are). At times it was erudite, and at times it was ridiculous, and almost always heated. It eventually became the second largest thread on this forum.

Some people agreed with the content of that post and some almost violently opposed the suggestions. One infamous poster joined the day of the message and now has over 900 posts, all of which could be summarized as "the IRL is dying and the racing in CCWS is great, long live the CCWS" and "link please". Well, from all of the links in the past few days, it looks like the racing in CCWS will be gone. So much for predictions.

After 6 months and over 1000 posts, we have now come full circle back to the beginning. Nearly every suggestion in that post has come true. The last line of that post was rather prophetic and now appears to have an answer.

"So, what happens next... now that blind faith or hatred won't work any more?"

We move on the the future as one major Open Wheel series. It's about time.

[mg5904]

Just for fun, I went back and read post #1 on this thread written almost 6 months ago.

It initiated a firestorm of debate, argument, attacks, support, and even a few "timeouts" for some posters who got too "involved" (we know who we are). At times it was erudite, and at times it was ridiculous, and almost always heated. It eventually became the second largest thread on this forum.

Some people agreed with the content of that post and some almost violently opposed the suggestions. One infamous poster joined the day of the message and now has over 900 posts, all of which could be summarized as "the IRL is dying and the racing in CCWS is great, long live the CCWS" and "link please". Well, from all of the links in the past few days, it looks like the racing in CCWS will be gone. So much for predictions.

After 6 months and over 1000 posts, we have now come full circle back to the beginning. Nearly every suggestion in that post has come true. The last line of that post was rather prophetic and now appears to have an answer.

"So, what happens next... now that blind faith or hatred won't work any more?"

We move on the the future as one major Open Wheel series. It's about time.

Just because a decision is made doesn't necessarily make it the right decision. I am very glad you are happy with the result though, and that you remembered to bring up this thread again to remind everyone of your wisdom. Especially when it comes from a neutral poster such as yourself who wants what is best for the sport.

[Chaparral66]

Chap, I think you're going to see a stable series which must, over time, gain more widespread attention, not from us hardcores on the boards, because we are very few in the big picture of things. I think the FINANCIALLY stable sites are going to get the dates and it's important that the promoters also grow with the series. It's important that the teams and drivers grow with the series.

When a schedule comes out, everybody isn't going to be happy, but in truth, not many of the CC sites were making money, either as track rentals or temporaries. So, not many of them will be included. A Road America was scheduled all over the CART map and never had a solid, stable date in its history, yet made it with CART when the series was together, and then was a track rental when CC went back. As much as I like Road America, it's likely to be awhile before it makes a deal again because it was treated badly by CART and CC just didn't draw there paying its own way. Laguna, the same way.

As much as I like Phoenix, when ISC took over, what was built in Phoenix with the Copper World Classic and a traditional March Indy car date got jacked around and both were minimized and pretty much killed. Hopefully, in time, the new "one" series will grow back to be popular there...and at Michigan.

So, I think almost everyone will find some little fault with whatever becomes of an '08 schedule, something they don't like, and the start of a stable schedule will come in '09, and that will most probably gore some oxen, too.

But finances, availability of schedule, television availability and promoter interest will be the benchmarks of what leads to a schedule....not 1, 10 or 100 of us saying on the boards that we need Road America or Phoenix or it's a disaster.

IC, like I said on one of the other threads, I will try to keep an open mind about it. This first year will be tough if it happens, just establishing a level of trust between the two groups. This new group will have to work closely with the tracks, and not try to extort concessions as they have in the past. They will have to work with each one carefully and try to rebuild open wheel's reputation so that that tracks will want to have the new series stage an event, as oppose to pressuring them to accept unreasonable terms. They will have to work out a proper TV schedule where the events are easily available to viewers, live, or full tape delay at a reasonable timeframe. And, they will have to reach out to the fans in ways they have not been able to conceive up to now. The jury will be out on this for quite awhile, so the success of the new venture depends on their collective realization of that, and how they go about developing it.

[PTCrash3]

Oh, and this is not a merger. It is the consolidation of a failed business into another business that is far more viable...
In my view (and I am far from alone) ChampCar does not deserve anything other than the fate created for it by the blind greed and blustering hubris of The Amigos. When it all finally goes Tango Uniform it will truly be the end of an error.

This is an asinine post. What we have here is TWO FAILED BUSINESSES combining into one entity that MIGHT survive. What wrecked both series is the greed and avarice of Honda and Toyota and the big winner was NASCAR. All open wheel fans were the losers. The error has always been the Inferior Racing League.

As for me, I like my racing as technologically advanced and as genuine as possible; real competition not made-up fakery. If the Crapalaras aren't gone in 2009 you can forget me watching anything with the Indy tag on it, and I've been going to at least one race every year since 1993.

And let's hope the whole sport doesn't go Tango Uniform in the mean time.

db

[PTCrash3]

The next few days should offer up some memorable quotes. Here is my favorite from last year:

"How long is my commitment (to CCWS)?" Kalkhoven replied. "How long is my life?"

So for me, "what happens next" includes finding a quote to top that!

Really? How about "There is no appeal." - Tony George, in the middle of ripping off the 2002 Indy 500 from Paul Tracy.

Now that's a quote.

[indycool]

Chap, I agree. The things it has going for it are already an ABC deal and races shown live, a sanctioning group which also understands what a promoter needs and makes because there's one (IMS) across 16th Street from their office and TG started a race team to better understand the costs car owners were complaining about. It has both Barnhart and Cotman, who developed respect as officials in each series on their own.

I don't think there is distrust between VERY MUCH of the two groups of racing people. In Indianapolis, throughout the split, teams from both series have helped each other with this little thing or that little thing -- transporting a car somewhere or "can I use your paint shop?" and the like -- and there are cottage industry people who serve BOTH series.

Maybe Forsythe and George could have a longstanding beef with each other, I suppose, but I've never heard that said, but KK and Pettit haven't been around long enough to distrust and hate and Gentilozzi was just in it for his 15 minutes of fame and keeping the CW jihad stoked.

With the series rank and file, I don't think that's a problem at all.

[ChaimWitz]

This is an asinine post. What we have here is TWO FAILED BUSINESSES combining into one entity that MIGHT survive. What wrecked both series is the greed and avarice of Honda and Toyota and the big winner was NASCAR. All open wheel fans were the losers. The error has always been the Inferior Racing League.

As for me, I like my racing as technologically advanced and as genuine as possible; real competition not made-up fakery. If the Crapalaras aren't gone in 2009 you can forget me watching anything with the Indy tag on it, and I've been going to at least one race every year since 1993.

And let's hope the whole sport doesn't go Tango Uniform in the mean time.

db

Hey, PTCrash3, Glad I woke you up and got you to post here rather than that other dark place. Hate the IRL all you want to but the facts speak for themselves. They get paid to be on TV and bring their races to venues. Speaking of asinine, ChampCar doesn't get paid to be on TV and only a handful of venues (that they don't own themselves) actually pay them anything. I can't see that changing, can you? The Amigos have never had a prayer of making CCWS into a real business. CART was another matter entirely so let's not confuse the two. As for the TG quote you posted, that isn't my favorite -- I would have chosen "33 is only a number". Regardless, I personally can't wait until PT wins his second Indy 500.

[tbyars]

As for me, I like my racing as technologically advanced and as genuine as possible; real competition not made-up fakery. If the Crapalaras aren't gone in 2009 you can forget me watching anything with the Indy tag on it, and I've been going to at least one race every year since 1993.

You must really HATE P2P and option tires.....

[ChaimWitz]

You must really HATE P2P and option tires.....

Or my fave, the Handford Device.

[Cart750hp]

This is an asinine post. What we have here is TWO FAILED BUSINESSES combining into one entity that MIGHT survive. What wrecked both series is the greed and avarice of Honda and Toyota and the big winner was NASCAR. All open wheel fans were the losers. The error has always been the Inferior Racing League.

Sanguin? Is that you? Ah, it could be Clydecart, or maybe Mike15, no? Hmmm, zero?


As for me, I like my racing as technologically advanced and as genuine as possible]

Oh why do that? The new series cannot, I mean, cannot go on without you! That's a bad thing to do, Sanguin, I mean, PTCrash3. Please don't go away, the new IndyCar cannot go on without you. That's a guarantee!


And let's hope the whole sport doesn't go Tango Uniform in the mean time. db

Who you mean "let's" to? Dude, don't even bother including me into your cult thing. You're not in CCFanatics. Just a reminder.

[ChaimWitz]

Well, it seems we are only hours away from the end of The Split despite certain individuals' best efforts to stop the peace plane. I thought it might just be time for a little song from Johnny Crash:

I hear the plane a comin'
it's flyin' round the bend
and I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Splitsville prison, and time keeps draggin' on
but that train keeps a flyin' on down to Grandson Anton...

When I was just a baby my mama told me. Son,
always be a good boy, don't ever play with DP1s.
But I called a man in Lansing just to hear him lie
now every time I hear that G5 whistle I hang my head and cry...

I bet there's rich folks eating in a fancy G5 jet
they're probably drinkin' Pinot and smelling their own farts.
Well I know I had it coming, I know I can't be free
but those people keep a lyin'
and that's what tortures me...

Well if they'd free me from this prison,
if that One Series was mine
I bet I'd move just a little further down the line
far from Splitsville prison, that's where I want to stay
and I'd let that lonesome G5 whistle blow my blues away...

[Ruben Barrios]

"I like my racing as technologically advanced and as genuine as possible"

LOL the eternal Champcars are more technologically advanced myth...

Newsflash!!! the Cossies are over 10 year old technology!!! The turbos are almost century old technology... NA engines are not low tech... heck F1 engines are NA and they are by far the most technologically advanced engines out there...

The Dallaras are crapwagons line was just propaganda that was used to justify the hatred for the IRL...

As much as you hate TG you can't walk around wtih blinders... doing do was the ultimate demise of CCWS...

CCWS turned into what every fan hated (single chasis, single engine, single tire, spec series, with a handfull of ride buyers) but the hatred for TG was so that fans were willing to support it just to "stick it" to TG... It's over thank God...

Now the quicker TG messes this up too, the sooner a new formula will surface, with better teams, better venues and (like it or not) the 500 in it's former glory!!

[ChaimWitz]

So, we all wait together for the news now certain to come.

The subject of this thread has obviously captured some attention here so I ask again, what happens next? Perhaps we can shift our focus to what should happen next now that we are about to have one series

What should happen that will be good for the sport? What should not happen that will be bad for the sport?

I know there will be political responses laced with "FTG" and "Lawn Dart" hatred but I also hope that some sensible and constructive thinking is posted. From here on, it will be about the future, not the past for most of us involved in the sport so why not here too?

[indycool]

I think a melded series takes advantage of all the publicity surrounding the coming together of these series. I check newspapers regularly and even the Tahlequah (Okla.) Daily News is following this on the wires. It will be a HUGE motorsports story when it breaks.

But that will NOT sustain it, nor will it have a "microwave" effect on the GENERAL public. In order to get a significant rise out of the GENERAL sports fan, it's going to be the personality stuff from a Helio, Danica and Tracy to start with and others as they develop and the series can develop them.

This will NOT be instant success, but it offers a platform for growth, and growth will come slowly as confusion goes away and the name "Indy" increases in importance. That will come by each autograph signing, each appearance, each solid race, each tenth of a rating point over a period of time, although some may find it quite easy to criticize that it doen't move faster.

[nigelred5]

If nothing else, it will reduce the confusion to the general public and potential advertisers. We will once again be able to say INDYCARS and there will be no confucion as to what that means. You will simply be able to anwer "YES" to the same ol question we have all bveen asked a thousand times without having to go into a long dissertation about the split. Now all the energy can be focused on promoting 1 series, with one goal, a healthy series. Ugly cars and a few too many ovals aside, everything else CAN be there. The IRL is just as open to fans as CCWS has always been. The close racing will return. There will always be back markers and less well funded teams. Those teams just need some sort of reward or incentive to keep sponsors interested and happy. sure, there will always be those that will cry gimmick or what ever, but everyone has to make a choice. Is this form of racing a pure sport or Entertainment. Pure sports are rarely a commercial success.

Make no bones about it, this year will be a rocky painful ride at best, but it is the right thing to do. Venues will sort themselves out. Even the promotors surely to loose a race this season have made comments that this is apositive thing for th elong term future of the sport. Even the guy in the white hat gets his a$$ kiched once an a while. I'm tired of sour grapes, time to get on with it. If you don't like what we are left with, it's been nice knowing ya. I'm going to try to enjoy some racing this year without all the Bull$#!t.

[gofastandwynn]

Meeting is on for tonight:


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080221/SPORTS01/80221062

A meeting that could unify U.S. open-wheel racing is still on schedule for tonight, an Indy Racing League spokesman said this afternoon.

Kevin Kalkhoven, a co-owner of the Indianapolis-based Champ Car World Series and the series' chief negotiator in the dealings with IRL founder Tony George, was due in the city from London late this afternoon.
He will be meeting with George to finalize the last remaining details.

A news conference to announce the unification is expected Friday at Indianapolis Motor Speedway. A time for the event has not been announced.

The IRL's reconfigured schedule, which is expected to include three of Champ Car's 2008 events, is not expected to be announced Friday. Those three events are in Long Beach, Calif.; Edmonton, Alberta; and Surfers Paradise, Australia.

[nigelred5]

donde esta' Sanguine??? ;)

[ChaimWitz]

“Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end.”
— Seneca, Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD

So, we finally have peace. What happens next?

[Chaparral66]

Papers have been signed, guys. Press conference forthcoming. OK, now, let's all be careful for what we wished for...

[Chaparral66]

'Cause we'll probably get it...

[ChaimWitz]

File the following "what happens next' item from AR1.com under "I told you so". I wonder if Sanguin was one of the CCWS staffers who was layed off? He has suddenly stopped posting. I wonder why? I also wonder if anyone remembers that I posted here that The Amigos cared only about themselves and no one else. The me, the uncaring way in which they treated the CCWS staff speaks volumes about their collective character (or lack there of).

"Champ Car employees hurt most by merger A reader writes, Dear Auto Racing1, While the unification (I won't call it a merger) of open wheel racing is a great step forward for the sport, I'd hope that all involved don't forget about the nearly 50 people at the Champ Car headquarters, as well as the "weekend warriors", Safety Team and Pace Car Team that helped make Champ Car events the successes they were, who are now out of a job.

After weeks of no communication from the owners and the high amount of stress associated with that, the employees at the headquarters were unceremoniously given their walking papers on Friday afternoon. All received a basic compensation package and were shown the door. Even though Kevin Kalkhoven was in town that day, he couldn't be bothered to visit to thank the hard working and dedicated employees who tried to make his company a success. Not even a thank you for your efforts e-mail from him or any of the owners.

And to add insult to injury, the employees were also told that "the IRL has said they have no openings for you." An offer from Tony George to at least ask the former Champ Car employees to forward their resumes to the IRL would have gone a long way towards creating some good will in the situation. Instead we were all summarily left out in the cold. Guess it proves that hard work, dedication and sacrifice just mean very little to some people."

Signed,
An ex-Champ Car employee who hopes the ALMS or the NHRA is hiring"

[FORMULA-A]

The response to the employees and especially the Safety Team is despicable but not really a surprise. I won't get into it too much but the way the AMIGOS dealt with the very folk they depended upon was indicative of what was soon to happen. I am referring to 05' dismissal of Dr's Olvey and Trammel. They pioneered many innoviations in the area of racing safety yet were summarily dismissed by the CCWS powers that be. To me it was a warning flag. Indeed it was what was to happen to everything and everyone from Scoring to Media. In the end these guys did not know what they were doing but BY GOD they were going to do it their way.

ONWARD.

[heelntoe]

The response to the employees and especially the Safety Team is despicable but not really a surprise. I won't get into it too much but the way the AMIGOS dealt with the very folk they depended upon was indicative of what was soon to happen. I am referring to 05' dismissal of Dr's Olvey and Trammel. They pioneered many innoviations in the area of racing safety yet were summarily dismissed by the CCWS powers that be. To me it was a warning flag. Indeed it was what was to happen to everything and everyone from Scoring to Media. In the end these guys did not know what they were doing but BY GOD they were going to do it their way.

ONWARD.

I feel really bad for these folks...was friends with John Clagett...wonder what they told Gentilozzi...hopefully, they gave him the same treatment.

[Chaparral66]

The response to the employees and especially the Safety Team is despicable but not really a surprise. I won't get into it too much but the way the AMIGOS dealt with the very folk they depended upon was indicative of what was soon to happen. I am referring to 05' dismissal of Dr's Olvey and Trammel. They pioneered many innoviations in the area of racing safety yet were summarily dismissed by the CCWS powers that be. To me it was a warning flag. Indeed it was what was to happen to everything and everyone from Scoring to Media. In the end these guys did not know what they were doing but BY GOD they were going to do it their way.

ONWARD.

I would have to agree. The CART/Champ Car safety team was world reknowned for their skills and were totally responsible for saving Alex Zanardi's life. That was definitely a red flag and a good indication of the incompetent management style of The Amigos.

[BobGarage]

I would have to agree. The CART/Champ Car safety team was world reknowned for their skills and were totally responsible for saving Alex Zanardi's life. That was definitely a red flag and a good indication of the incompetent management style of The Amigos.

do we know that was a decision on the Amigos part? or that TG just didn't turn round and say "no i don't want them, we have our own".


On these threads people keep saying oh "x" made this bad decision or "y" did this wrong. But do we actually know for sure who's decisions was whos???

[ChaimWitz]

do we know that was a decision on the Amigos part? or that TG just didn't turn round and say "no i don't want them, we have our own".


On these threads people keep saying oh "x" made this bad decision or "y" did this wrong. But do we actually know for sure who's decisions was whos???

The obvious reality is that Tony George had no responsibility for the management of ChampCar nor did he have any obligation to the employees of the company. The Amigos did. I repeat, The Amigos did. They apparently treated that responsibility and obligation with the same respect that they treated the fans and promoters. I do know a number of CCWS staffers and I'll bet that their resumes went to the IRL as well as ALMS, Grand Am, NASCAR, etc. I suspect that a few will probably eventually end up at the IRL

[Claus Hansen]

I feel sorry for the former Champcar office people...
I hope they will find jobs somewhere else...

[ChaimWitz]

I wonder what Sanguin will do now?

[Chaparral66]

The obvious reality is that Tony George had no responsibility for the management of ChampCar nor did he have any obligation to the employees of the company. The Amigos did. I repeat, The Amigos did. They apparently treated that responsibility and obligation with the same respect that they treated the fans and promoters. I do know a number of CCWS staffers and I'll bet that their resumes went to the IRL as well as ALMS, Grand Am, NASCAR, etc. I suspect that a few will probably eventually end up at the IRL

This is true, TG isn't responsible for the CCWS staffers, The Amigos are. If, after all the rumors and articles about the merger surfaced, you'd think that at some point, at the very least KK would have given an indication of where it was going. But he probably didn't want to do that because he was so paranoid about leaks to the media. Once the deal was done, he should have been there personally to come clean to the loyal staff.

[ChaimWitz]

I was surprised in a positive way by what TG, KK and MA said on Windtunnel. It seems that TG is far more open minded than some posters here would have had us believe and that KK was far more gracious and proactive in healing the Spilt than I would have thought. Perhaps they both read this thread and knew "it was time" ;-0.

[BobGarage]

I was surprised in a positive way by what TG, KK and MA said on Windtunnel. It seems that TG is far more open minded than some posters here would have had us believe and that KK was far more gracious and proactive in healing the Spilt than I would have thought. Perhaps they both read this thread and knew "it was time" ;-0.

they'd both had to have been blind to not see that it was time.

both series were stuggling to get 16 cars each this season. Merger was the only option for both sides.

With the excess number of chassis etc the IRL had that is the formula that stayed on.

[Chaparral66]

do we know that was a decision on the Amigos part? or that TG just didn't turn round and say "no i don't want them, we have our own".


On these threads people keep saying oh "x" made this bad decision or "y" did this wrong. But do we actually know for sure who's decisions was whos???

Someone already recounted the time when the safety crew was let go and replaced, and that was well before this merger. That means that it was the Amigos, not TG.

[Ruben Barrios]

"do we know that was a decision on the Amigos part? or that TG just didn't turn round and say "no i don't want them, we have our own"."

Are you kidding? This happened right after the BK... this was one of the first things OWRS did...

[ChaimWitz]

So, the river denial still runs deep in these parts and over on ****wagon.com.

Whatever.

The reality now is that the whole hater angle is tired. Very tired.

Tomorrow is just another crazy day in the nearly 100 year history of our sport and racers will do what they have always done. They will get on with it and go racing. It is time we all did too. I only have a few posts left in me before I get back to the hard work ahead. What happens next will happen regardless of who complains or feels hurt.

The future is coming at us. Fast. Hang on tight...

[Papyrus]

What has happened will not change my minds and i know many who will not be changed by "the reality" you seem to be so happy with so get used to it and know that we will never forgive and forget becuz all ChampCar needed was more money and time before RM did the dirty deedz for the traitor. Honda was bailing and TG was failing and there was a consperacy and you know it so tell me how our series that had races with a crowds bigger than Indy and real drivers and more fans and multinational markets needs to be killed to make way for something with dancing drivers and bathing suits that we all know has hardly any real fans and no multinational markets. Those of you who hate "the reality" like I do needs to know that hope is glimmering and the people I speak with who have a plan that will give the true fans what we all seek and desire and will revenge what needs to be revenged so hang on tight yourself. Whats so hard to understand?

[indycool]

There's not enough bandwidth to respond to that, Papyrus. Hope you enjoy some racing somewhere free of conspiracies and money and with REAL big crowds and race in Bahrain and Kuwait and Nairobi.

[garyshell]

Papyrus = Paper???

"crowds bigger than Indy", oh please. As much as I have denigrated what has become of the Indy 500 even I don't believe that line for a second.

Please Paper, provide us with some numbers to back up that ridiculous assertion. Hell, I'll even take inflated numbers from the CCWS front office or a promoters office.

"What is so hard to understand?" Delusional people, who don't understand
simple grammar or punctuation.

Gary

[Ruben Barrios]

"we will never forgive and forget becuz all ChampCar needed was more money and time before RM did the dirty deedz for the traitor."

Right ;) no question about it... it is all RM's fault...

(sarcasm off)

You are kidding right?

You are saying (in laymans terms) that it was a game of poker and RM told everyone that CCWS was bluffing just before TG was going to fold...

Is that why you call him a traitor... do you realize how stupid that makes the owners seem??

[Chaparral66]

Papyrus = Paper???

"crowds bigger than Indy", oh please. As much as I have denigrated what has become of the Indy 500 even I don't believe that line for a second.

Please Paper, provide us with some numbers to back up that ridiculous assertion. Hell, I'll even take inflated numbers from the CCWS front office or a promoters office.

"What is so hard to understand?" Delusional people, who don't understand
simple grammar or punctuation.

Gary

Gary, I doubt very seriously that Papyrus is "Paper". If you'll remember, Paper's essays were always well thought out and eloquently expressed opinions, with some solid eveidence to back it up. Papyrus' response was an emotional outburst.

Robin Miller was not the head of any conspiracy, Papyrus. The Amigos simply got tired of writing checks, and TG didn't (but TG had to hustle on this deal if Honda truly was going to bail after this year). That's the thing with most weathy people, they have this thing about holding on to their money. And if they can better keep it by spending someone else's money, so much the better.

Obviously you're not happy with this result and I understand that. Not everyone was going to be. But I think we have go with the cards we've been dealt and see where it leads. We should have a much better month of May than we've had in years and some true excitement to qualifying. If I have concerns as to how the unification came about, I have even greater concerns that during this war, NASCAR became the synonym of American racing and that's not good. We need to change that, to let everyone know that there is an alternative, and that work must start now.

[ChaimWitz]

Chaparral66, I think that Papyrus is just someone goofing on Pat (Paper) Ringly's fanatical postition on all things TG and CC. I also don't agree that Paper's posts on ****wagon.com are reasoned or well written. He is an unbendable extremist who for far too long had the ear of the Amigos and I hold he and his ilk on ****wagon.com partially responsible for prolonging the split by fueling their hate and delusion-based bluff.

It seems that the real "what happens next" happened in December. I do wonder what KK'a mindset was around the time the JDS Uniphase trial ended. I also wonder if he read these and other boards to get a sense of what we natives were all thinking. If he read this monster of a thread (I suspect he and Paulie G-String did) he no doubt got the picture that Sanguin was failing as a CCF thought policeman and the jig was up for the OWRS boys.

Here is what CBS Sportsline reported on how the unification (not a merger) came to be.

Please note who initiated the final unification conversation.

"Cold War ends, but Indy Car only heats up by getting on schedule

Feb. 28, 2008
By Pete Pistone
Special to CBSSports.com

Step 1 is complete, and the long overdue open-wheel unification is over.
Tony George and Kevin Kalkhoven should be commended for finally ending the madness that nearly killed American Indy Car racing.

"It was last fall on the anniversary of my grandfather's death that I was thinking to myself it really had been 30 years ago since the sport of open-wheel racing had been truly unified," George recalled. "Last month when the calendar turned over to 2008, I was wondering if it was possible this could ever happen.

"Lo and behold, I got a phone call that just made me feel really warm. I felt like this was going perhaps going to be the best year of my 48 to have a chance to do something that's very important to me and very close to me, and that is to help bring about the unification of open-wheel racing."
The phone call came from Kalkhoven, and despite several failed attempts to mend fences, this time it actually worked out.

But as both sides admitted in Wednesday's news conference to officially announce the creation of a single open-wheel series, the heavy lifting is about to begin.

"I've said many times that unification itself isn't some sort of magic bullet to be able to get us forward," Kalkhoven said. "It's going to take an awful lot of hard work, and that has already begun."

Let's hope so.

This season will be a hodgepodge to say the least, with three former Champ Car events -- Long Beach, Edmonton and Australia -- wedged into the existing IRL schedule.

The Champ Car teams planning to make the switch, which could be as many as nine operations and up to 12 drivers, will have to change engine and chassis packages pretty much on the fly. And the league, which promised free Dallara chassis and Honda engines to those teams, will need to scramble to find available and competitive equipment.

"The interest level is clearly high at this point in time," said Brian Barnhart, the IRL director of race operations. "You could see anywhere from eight to 12 cars on the grid beginning with the Homestead event. That's absolutely the best-case scenario we could be looking for."

To make that transition as smooth as possible, the IRL has assigned several of its teams to incoming Champ Car operations.

"Newman-Haas will be assigned to Rahal Letterman," said George, a match that will pair up N-H driver Graham Rahal with his father Bobby's IRL team.
"They have some common interests there and we wanted to align those team teams.

"The KV guys will be aligned with Target/Chip Ganassi, so it will be a smooth transition from that point."

But the decision that will ultimately decide the fate of the new unified series will be the schedule, which, according to George and Kalkhoven, will be developed from a clean sheet of paper in 2009.

Anchored by the Indianapolis 500 with several historic and popular tent poles throughout like Long Beach, Australia and Mexico City, the new series has a chance to create an exciting and eclectic schedule that could re-capture the interest of open-wheel fans.

"The Indianapolis 500, with all of its stature, and Long Beach will be two anchor points of what will be an incredibly interesting series," Kalkhoven said.

While Champ Car's direction was toward more road courses and street circuits, the IRL charted a course that was oval-track-heavy, an emphasis George is hoping to continue in the next evolution of the series.

"It's important to me to have a variety of ovals on the schedule," George said. "But international opportunities are out there. We need to look at building a schedule that makes sense from every perspective."

Speculation is a 20- to 22-race schedule will be the end result in 2009, and if George and Kalkhoven are smart, the high-speed oval racing that became the IRL's trademark will comprise a majority of the slate.

The incredible high-speed side-by-side racing at superspeedway ovals like Chicagoland Speedway, Texas Motor Speedway, Kentucky Speedway and Richmond International Raceway made the IRL one of the most exciting series in all of motorsports.

Building on that excitement and the oval-track tradition of Indy Car racing should be the foundation of the next era of the series. Only after a core of oval races are in place should the most popular road course and street circuit events be added, which would create one of the premier circuits in motorsports.

The first step has been taken and open-wheel teams can all come out of the storm clouds and race under one umbrella. Now it's up to George, Kalkhoven and Co. to not just keep Indy Car racing alive, but make it thrive.

"Having one series is for the best, not only for the drivers and the teams, but for the fans," said Helio Castroneves, who now has a chance to once again be known for his driving talent rather than his dancing skills. "It's about time.""

[ChaimWitz]

So, it seems that the vast majority of ChampCar's events were indeed losing money in a significant way. It is sad that most will not happen this year or perhaps ever again but it does illustrate what a brazen bluff The Amigos were running during these past four years.

In hindsight it looks to me like Paulie G-String did what he does best back in 2003. He took advantage of the anti-TG hatred he found in dark places on the web and in some corners of the ChampCar paddock. He then tapped into a bunch of delusional rich hobby boys ready and willing to be taken for an egoporn thrill ride. Now that their massive tax right offs no longer make sense, so goes the Champ Car World Series. Their combined arrogance, greed and spite were never going to end up creating anything other than the mess we have today. I have pointed this out to many people over the years. The "Amigos-Uber-Alles" types I spoke with had been completely seduced by the real Dark Side and they spewed back all the irrational things our dear departed Sanguin did before he went missing. Some called me nasty names and others did very damaging things to me personally because I chose not to believe or support all the all lies and spin.

Isn't it interesting how it all turned out? It was never about the racing (and the racing was good sometimes).

Do I feel vindicated? Hell yes!

From my perspective, the OWRS era was all about the ugly side of the human spirit. It is amusing how everyone from KK to Mark C. to certain posters here on these boards have changed their tunes now that reality has caught up with them. So to them, I offer some some advice that I myself will now heed: GET A LIFE!

So, this is probably my last post. Thanks to everyone I met here for caring so much about our beautiful sport. May the years ahead bring the healing and the success we all dream of. Shalom -- Chaim

[indycool]

I hope it is not your last post. It is time to hope that the scramble everyone in the sport must be doing right now will present a good series in '08 and a better one in '09 and set the stage for better TV ratings and more sponsorship.

[rpralon]

What happens next? nothing...

IRL still the same, maybe with more cars and more crashs...

Do you really wait something new from TG ???

[garyshell]

Isn't it interesting how it all turned out? It was never about the racing (and the racing was good sometimes).

Do I feel vindicated? Hell yes!
...

So, this is probably my last post.

So was your participation here about the racing or about the "argument"? Now that the "argument" has been more or less settled, you no longer want to participate? What about the racing? Don't loose sight of that! Don't go yet, stick around a while until the first few races are under our belts. Enjoy some bench racing again. You just might rekindle what it was that brought you here in the first place. Ya never know. ;)

Gary

[garyshell]

What happens next? nothing...

IRL still the same, maybe with more cars and more crashs...

Do you really wait something new from TG ???


Yes, and if you don't why are you here? I am not suggesting you have to love "...king George", god knows I despise the little weasel. I am just saying if your mind is made up and your expectations are that low, why do you come here to this forum. You might find more kindred spirits drowning in their sorrows over on the CCF forums. Most of us here are resigned to the fact that OWRS is gone, and are ready to see what happens next.

Gary

[Hoop-98]

So was your participation here about the racing or about the "argument"? Now that the "argument" has been more or less settled, you no longer want to participate? What about the racing? Don't loose sight of that! Don't go yet, stick around a while until the first few races are under our belts. Enjoy some bench racing again. You just might rekindle what it was that brought you here in the first place. Ya never know. ;)

Gary

CW has become the Forum equivalent of write only memory (WOM).....or hanging chads, disenfranchosed :) (SIC on purpose)

rh

[rpralon]

Yes, and if you don't why are you here? I am not suggesting you have to love "...king George", god knows I despise the little weasel. I am just saying if your mind is made up and your expectations are that low, why do you come here to this forum. You might find more kindred spirits drowning in their sorrows over on the CCF forums. Most of us here are resigned to the fact that OWRS is gone, and are ready to see what happens next.

Gary

OK... but I think real IRL fans just want more IRL races like the races they are used to watching. They don't want Panoz DP01, or Road America, they don't know who is R. Dorboos or Bernoldi or Rocketsports. They like Danica, they like Dalaras and they like crashes.

Maybe TG thinks the same and perhaps he isn't worried to catch CC fans (from CCF or not) or revive CART's great days, etc... Probably he only wants to restore the importance of Indy's 500 in the American sport scenario. So waiting some kind of revolution in AOW because the dead of CC and the incorporation of its teams and some of its races in IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are...

[heelntoe]

OK... but I think real IRL fans just want more IRL races like the races they are used to watching. They don't want Panoz DP01, or Road America, they don't know who is R. Dorboos or Bernoldi or Rocketsports. They like Danica, they like Dalaras and they like crashes.

Maybe TG thinks the same and perhaps he isn't worried to catch CC fans (from CCF or not) or revive CART's great days, etc... Probably he only wants to restore the importance of Indy's 500 in the American sport scenario. So waiting some kind of revolution in AOW because the dead of CC and the incorporation of its teams and some of its races in IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are...

I disagree on all fronts as I think everyone truly knows that the sport needs help and cannot remain the same no matter which side of the fence you sit on. Not knowing who Doornbos or Bernoldi should not be a bad thing, but knowing Rocketsports IS definitely a bad thing :) We all have to give this thing time and even TG said in the first days that he needed to embrace change...we need to encourage that change for a win win for all of us...just my opinion, of course.

[indycool]

No, I don't think TG is counting on a single person from F-Troop or having a CW 'tude to embrace the series and I imagine he fully expects CW to carry on with its hate program until the end of time. He has much more important things to do than try to appease 300 or so of them in the big picture.

Whether his staff had anything to do with it or not, and I don't have a clue one way or the other, Castroneves appeared on a dance show 10 straight weeks in front of 20 million viewers per week. Whoever did that, and I expect it took several staff people from various entities to, wonderful.

200 million viewers in the U.S. of a two-time Indianapolis 500 winner in a TV competition vs. 300 crappies? If I was him, I sure wouldn't worry about 'em. They're loud, but they're few. If they'd have said the same things about me through the years that they've said about TG, I sure wouldn't care about 'em in any way.

As for drivers, a few new ones show up each year. Max Papis just got a ride for Indy with Jason Prietley's team and Max is popular wherever he goes. The new ones like Doornbos, Rahal, Wilson, Power, etc., just hafta make their own way. Bernoldi is apparently out because he doesn't want to run ovals and Gentilozzi said he couldn't make it work for Rocketsports.

[garyshell]

OK... but I think real IRL fans just want more IRL races like the races they are used to watching. They don't want Panoz DP01, or Road America, they don't know who is R. Dorboos or Bernoldi or Rocketsports. They like Danica, they like Dalaras and they like crashes.

Maybe TG thinks the same and perhaps he isn't worried to catch CC fans (from CCF or not) or revive CART's great days, etc... Probably he only wants to restore the importance of Indy's 500 in the American sport scenario. So waiting some kind of revolution in AOW because the dead of CC and the incorporation of its teams and some of its races in IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are...

"Real IRL fan" ah the magic prejudicial words. What do you know of the real IRL fan, all you know is what you have been spoonfed by the likes of the CCF forum. You wouldn't know a real IRL fan if it came up and bit your... And for that matter neither would I. The point is you have this distorted stereotype that may or, more likely, may not be accurate.

So as I asked before, if "IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are..." is true, why are you here? What purpose could it possibly serve for you or a "true IRL fan" or those of us who are new to the series and are wating to see how this shakes out.

Gary

[weeflyonthewall]

The key to AOWR landing the respect it deserves is putting less emphasis on Indy and more emphasis on the entire racing season. Fast-tracking a modified Panoz DP01 for inclusion at Indy would certainly help. Those Dallara's are more than ugly, they are dangerous. Graham Rahal made that very clear when he chose his career path into open wheel.

[Chaparral66]

So, it seems that the vast majority of ChampCar's events were indeed losing money in a significant way. It is sad that most will not happen this year or perhaps ever again but it does illustrate what a brazen bluff The Amigos were running during these past four years.

In hindsight it looks to me like Paulie G-String did what he does best back in 2003. He took advantage of the anti-TG hatred he found in dark places on the web and in some corners of the ChampCar paddock. He then tapped into a bunch of delusional rich hobby boys ready and willing to be taken for an egoporn thrill ride. Now that their massive tax right offs no longer make sense, so goes the Champ Car World Series. Their combined arrogance, greed and spite were never going to end up creating anything other than the mess we have today. I have pointed this out to many people over the years. The "Amigos-Uber-Alles" types I spoke with had been completely seduced by the real Dark Side and they spewed back all the irrational things our dear departed Sanguin did before he went missing. Some called me nasty names and others did very damaging things to me personally because I chose not to believe or support all the all lies and spin.

Isn't it interesting how it all turned out? It was never about the racing (and the racing was good sometimes).

Do I feel vindicated? Hell yes!

From my perspective, the OWRS era was all about the ugly side of the human spirit. It is amusing how everyone from KK to Mark C. to certain posters here on these boards have changed their tunes now that reality has caught up with them. So to them, I offer some some advice that I myself will now heed: GET A LIFE!

So, this is probably my last post. Thanks to everyone I met here for caring so much about our beautiful sport. May the years ahead bring the healing and the success we all dream of. Shalom -- Chaim

Vindicated? About what? We didn't really see The Amigos for who they were until relatively recently. We already knew about TG. We supported The Amigos because they were the ones who came to the rescue of our preferred style of racing. That would have happened whether it was The Amigos or Bill Gates (who could have done it out of petty cash), it was almost incidental who rescued CC.

But even as that was going on, most of us in the CC side were indeed, focused on the racing. We cared about Long Beach, Laguna Seca, Road America, Michigan, Fontana, Milwaukee, Cleveland and the like. We cared about Ford Cosworth Turbo engines and competition from Honda and Toyota. We cared about a strong and relaible TV package that allowed us to see races live and allowed our friends in Canada, Mexico, Europe, and Australia. The politics by its very nature and media reaction had become just as important as the racing, because it wouldn't stop, until now.

Reality having caught up to us? It is what it is. You can either accept it, or be in denial, and speaking for myself, I choose to accept the one series as it now stands. Not much choice. As I told IC, I'm willing to keep and open mind and continue watch, in the hopes that the sport can finally leave this dark episode behind and grow beyond the politics. I also told IC that the new series will have to work very hard to justify it's existence, but I'm willing to give it a chance. I also don't want leave any hard feelings (which I don't have to begin with) that might get in the way of all of us enjoying it and continuing on the forum discussing the events. That's why I also hope this isn't your last post. But this is no time to get cocky about what's happened, we have a duty as fans (since it is clear to me that the brass in both series look at chat rooms) to keep our voices heard with all the passion we can muster. This merger happened in part because we never lowered our voices; we all shouted "ENOUGH!!" That's a good thing. But don't start thinking there was a clear winner in this war, meaning CCWS or the IRL. What we have here is a negotiated settlement, in other words, a draw. The only winner here was NASCAR, and it will stay that way until open wheel racing can rebuild itself.

[indycool]

Gary, defining a "real IRL fan" is probably the various fan groups who meet at the Brickyard Crossing Flag Room each week to watch old racing movies, the guys that hang out at shops on Gasoline Alley and Charlie Brown's on Main Street in Speedway and the various fans who have warmed up to it at Nashville, Texas, Kansas, Chicagoland, Richmond, etc.

Very few of those are Internet "combatants," so to speak. The IRL forum at one board I visit has very few political issues.

I'd hate to think that F-Troop sets the standard for "real CART/CC fans." And I don't think that. I think that those who attended CART/CC races at permanent courses were race fans and probably, like those at IRL sites, didn't give a poop about any split 12 years ago.

weefly, you can add an IMO to your post. The DP-01 doesn't even have an oval kit, let alone being tested on an oval somewhere. And if IT was going to make that much of a difference, as CC proclaimed, why didn't it in '07?

[Chaparral66]

Gary, defining a "real IRL fan" is probably the various fan groups who meet at the Brickyard Crossing Flag Room each week to watch old racing movies, the guys that hang out at shops on Gasoline Alley and Charlie Brown's on Main Street in Speedway and the various fans who have warmed up to it at Nashville, Texas, Kansas, Chicagoland, Richmond, etc.

Very few of those are Internet "combatants," so to speak. The IRL forum at one board I visit has very few political issues.

I'd hate to think that F-Troop sets the standard for "real CART/CC fans." And I don't think that. I think that those who attended CART/CC races at permanent courses were race fans and probably, like those at IRL sites, didn't give a poop about any split 12 years ago.

weefly, you can add an IMO to your post. The DP-01 doesn't even have an oval kit, let alone being tested on an oval somewhere. And if IT was going to make that much of a difference, as CC proclaimed, why didn't it in '07?

IC, do you mean the DP-01 doesn't have an oval kit now, or never did? My impression was that Panoz had designed the car to race on ovals or be able to use an oval kit, should CC return to them in the future. They just hadn't tested them yet since there wasn't a need to, and I guess the point is moot, for now. But my thinking was that Champ Car would be ready for that eventuality, if it came to pass.

[rpralon]

"Real IRL fan" ah the magic prejudicial words. What do you know of the real IRL fan, all you know is what you have been spoonfed by the likes of the CCF forum. You wouldn't know a real IRL fan if it came up and bit your... And for that matter neither would I. The point is you have this distorted stereotype that may or, more likely, may not be accurate.

So as I asked before, if "IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are..." is true, why are you here? What purpose could it possibly serve for you or a "true IRL fan" or those of us who are new to the series and are wating to see how this shakes out.

Gary


What serve for me? I prefer to wait and see some races before answer this question but I don't hope a big improvement in quality of races this year.

About the AOW future? I don't know.. but for me the problem is more about people( charismatic drivers ) than series, cars and races... CART in their last years had nice cars and great races but didn't have a genuine hero to catch the public and midia's attention .

[grungex]

Castroneves appeared on a dance show 10 straight weeks in front of 20 million viewers per week. Whoever did that, and I expect it took several staff people from various entities to, wonderful.

200 million viewers in the U.S. of a two-time Indianapolis 500 winner in a TV competition vs. 300 crappies?

This is the type of accounting you used to scream about when applied to Champ Car weekend attendance. The hypocrisy is astounding, but not at all surprising.

Get back to us when 200 million (or 20 million) people tune in to watch him race.

[!!WALDO!!]

This is the type of accounting you used to scream about when applied to Champ Car weekend attendance. The hypocrisy is astounding, but not at all surprising.

Get back to us when 200 million (or 20 million) people tune in to watch him race.

According to news accounts it was 350,000,000 viewers of DWTS. So if .5% watch an ICS race, that would be 1,700,000 or about 1.8 rating. So half of that would be a .9 on top of a .6. Don't forget Danica and the hand full of un bitter fans so it could go as high as 2.0. Of course it won't if it does it out distance the NHL.

[tbyars]

Rpralon, my biggest objection to your posts is your stated opinion that "real IRL fans" watch the series in their hopes to see crashes.

I want to ask you a serious question. I would like to ask you what is EXACTLY your evidence for that statement?

I would consider myself a "real IRL fan," and I can tell you that I believe there is NOTHING more thrilling than seeing side-by-side racing with finishes that are thousandths of a second apart. The LAST thing I - and I think the VAST majority of "real IRL fans" - want to see while that is going on is any kind of incident to stop the action.

MY evidence for that? I have been to dozens of IRL races where the close racing has been thrilling to the point of the crowd noise drowning out the roar of the cars. When there IS an accident (generally somewhere else in the field), blown engine or debris on the track that brings out the yellow, the crowd simply deflates and grows quiet. It's pretty obvious that the crowd was getting off on the racing, not waiting for an accident.

Exactly what is your experience in this area? How many IRL races have you seen in person? How many times have you seen two (or three) cars come off the final turn waiting to see which one would get the slightest advantage at the checkered flag?

Do yourself a favor. Before you stereotype "real IRL fans" with the disgusting insinuation that they are in it for the crashes, quit basing your opinions on the ravings of the children on some of the other forums and see what you can find out about those "real IRL fans" from them. Get some facts.

I'm one of those "real IRL fans."

Davey Hamilton is a friend. I wept as I watched them pull his broken body out of his car at TMS. I wept again when I watched him on the web cam pull out for his first lap of practice since the accident at Indy in 2007. Several years after Davey's accident, I prayed even as pieces from Kenny Brack's car were still spinning across the track after touching wheels with Tomas Scheckter. I found it hard to watch as Jason Priestly's IPS car came to a stop just yards from where I was at Kentucky. I can assure you those are among three memories I wish I could cleanse from my memory.

I'm a "real IRL fan." Don't you dare presume to tell me I'm there for the crashes. And don't presume to tell me I'm any different than other "real IRL fans." It's insulting, it's ignorant, and it's just not true.

[Dave Brock]

.....I still love this sport
but I now want to see it whole again...
with one culture and one fan base. (A)

As someone wiser than me once said:

"You got to get busy livin' or get busy dyin". (B)

So, what happens next...
now that blind faith or hatred won't work any more?

I want to take small issues with you....

A) There NEVER was ONE culture OR fan BASE. The entirety of it all was composed of speculating promoters, car owners, too large a pool of driver wannabes, educated & casual fans, bloodsport fans, drunks, kids wives who could give a **** and trhill seekers of every color in every classification above.


B) Around the old Waltrip shops they had a refined perspective on that very observation, they said
"IF you don't have yesterday behind you by noon today, you probably won't have a tomorrow either!"


C) Blind faith & hatred will always WORK... EVERMORE.
WHY?
Because as long as ignorance, laziness, decption and the accecptence of them is tolerated stupidity will have a large vocal grasp on the enjoyment, expertise and promise in conversation that is SUPPOSED to be about openwheeled racing.
When people do not defend when they know is correct (historicly or socially) it invites those with other agendas or social morals, who are actually just looking for an audience that will tolerate their
"I can form an opinion therefore it is as valid as any other"
attitude & associated behavioral misanthropy.

You have just witnessed it from the inside and have 13yrs of firsthand knowledge, which, in experience, would give you a BS in B.S.!!
So did you miss the lesson or were you so fixed looking at the scenery that you missed the only possible conclusion....?

THERE CAN NEVER BE
ENOUGHT MONEY AND SUCKERS
TO SUSTAIN A PYRIMID
and have anyone but the originators or controlers profit from it.
In the end EVERYONE involved winds up losing money, time, face or more.

Other than that Dr. Jack,
if you are the same ol' Doc from aways back
where the slime is thicker than blood
then I still respect you and your opinions
and even if you THINK your not there for the crashes,
you ARE!
Because you wanna see miracles in racing just as bad as anyone else and crashes are where they usually take place.
I love watching Jethro Bodines heroic disintegrational demonstration & survival at Daytona in what was once a truck. It was a 100% positive testament to the skill & abilities of everyone from the spec team to the welder to the driver because in the end it ALL worked exactly as it was meant to and EXPECTED to!
I just don't like any of the crashes where permanent injury or worse occurrs and I am sure that you don't either.
And that my friend makes you a fellow race fan.
Which is the reason I took the time to point out how you mis-spoke, because I give a damn about REAL RACE FANS, Drivers and crew workers and not so much about car owners or promoters.
I look forward to see'n ya around the pits................. :cool:

[Dave Brock]

Rpralon, my biggest objection to your posts is your stated opinion that "real IRL fans" watch the series in their hopes to see crashes.

I want to ask you a serious question. I would like to ask you what is EXACTLY your evidence for that statement?
.............................
I'm a "real IRL fan." Don't you dare presume to tell me I'm there for the crashes. And don't presume to tell me I'm any different than other "real IRL fans." It's insulting, it's ignorant, and it's just not true.

PsssT...hey Bud,

You shouldn't ought to let the rantings of people consumed by fantasy, themselves and self loathing get your attention, don't you realize that your TIME,EFFORT and ILLWILL is all they can surrvive on?

It's an addiction thing for them, it thrills them just like watching a squirrel get run over the 4th time.

Treat them the same as you do the guy who lives 9 miles away from you...
never give him a thought, recognize his existance or pay him an ioter of your sweet time or energy.

He wins when his crap sicks to YOUR barn and you acknowledge it, they're HIS rules and you play by them! :mad:

[Dave Brock]

This is the type of accounting you used to scream about when applied to Champ Car weekend attendance. The hypocrisy is astounding, but not at all surprising.

Get back to us when 200 million (or 20 million) people tune in to watch him race.

Bother to INFORM YOU when a racing event of note occurrs?
HA!
DOUBLE HA

You'll know, it will be about the time you are trampled by all those feet headed back to the crown jewel in motorsports, and if you regain concieousness quick you will see they have all left you in their dust once again....but hey you can always watchit on tee-vee and be as smug as you need to be to maintain that attitude of
" the world is always wrong when they don't listen to me!"
Stay where you are, there ain't no room for you there anyway, there are no seats at INDY located in a hole that you don't dig yourself....take it to the bank.

[indycool]

No, grungex, those are accepted Nielsen numbers. There's no further point in discussing CART/CC announced attendance.

[rpralon]

I'm a "real IRL fan." Don't you dare presume to tell me I'm there for the crashes. And don't presume to tell me I'm any different than other "real IRL fans." It's insulting, it's ignorant, and it's just not true.

I didn't want to insult any IRL fan, but I can't disconnect crashes involving multiple cars from IRL's image. I can't remember any oval IRL race without crashes and there are rumors that the series champion have gone to NASCAR due to security risks . So if somebody really doesn't want to see dangerous crashes and support IRL races seems to me a kind of incoherence. Crashes are part of motor sports but in IRL recently they have happened over limits.

[indycool]

Well, guess you've been coached well in the image that has been presented at CW and elsewhere about the IRL.

ANY form of motorsport is dangerous. The drivers have preferences and feelings about things at certain times. Emerson Fittipaldi's career was thought to be done when he was out of F1, and all of a sudden, he comes to the U.S., joins the series, learns ovals and wins Indy twice. Others come here because they can't get to F1 or stay in it (Mike Andretti and da Matta, over and back; Guerrero and Boesel, over here and stayed.)

Michael Schumacher said the Indy 500 was too dangerous for him. FOR HIM. It WASN'T too dangerous for a 19-year-old American college girl named Sarah Fisher, nor is it today.

That's just different strokes for different folks. If they went to NASCAR thinking that's bulletproof safe, remember the tragedy of Dale Earnhardt.

[grungex]

No, grungex, those are accepted Nielsen numbers. There's no further point in discussing CART/CC announced attendance.


The 20 million per show is accepted, 200 million different viewers is not. Which was my point, and you know it. Sidestep it all you want... :rolleyes:

[indycool]

Oh, okay, I was not aware you were disputing repeats....certainly, I would think, there were plenty of viewers who followed the whole thing.

[grungex]

Oh, okay, I was not aware you were disputing repeats....certainly, I would think, there were plenty of viewers who followed the whole thing.


Absolutely, but they do not add up to 200 million separate viewers. Which was always your ilk's dispute with CC attendance, wasn't it?

[garyshell]

Absolutely, but they do not add up to 200 million separate viewers. Which was always your ilk's dispute with CC attendance, wasn't it?


But since we were willing to accept the CC attendance numbers for a weekend despite the fact we knew some folks are being counted twice, and I was among those willing, why should we now be unwilling to accept the 200 million number???

I thought the CC numbers legitimate and I find the DWTS numbers equally legitimate. If there were 20 million individual viewers, then that 200 million means they tuned in TEN times. That means they came back. They voted with their remote controls. The mere fact that they saw Helio ten weeks in a row, makes them even MORE likely to want to come see him at his real job should the circus (in a GOOD sense of the word) come to their town.

It's like website stats. Individual numbers are good but return visit numbers are even better!

Gary

[grungex]

I wasn't the one disputing Champ Car math, merely pointing out the inconsistency in indycool's post. One can't have it both ways, but some folks try...

[indycool]

grungex, I already acknowledged your point about repeat viewers and would have in advance if I realized that WAS your point. I know that the counting of CART/CC attendance figures including the same guy for three days is a big deal to some, but in my OWN view of CART/CC attendance figures, I don't know how you build 22,000 seats at Cleveland and have no GAs and announce six-figure numbers for the weekend, no matter how many times someone turns the turnstile (up to three).

[tbyars]

I didn't want to insult any IRL fan, but I can't disconnect crashes involving multiple cars from IRL's image. I can't remember any oval IRL race without crashes and there are rumors that the series champion have gone to NASCAR due to security risks . So if somebody really doesn't want to see dangerous crashes and support IRL races seems to me a kind of incoherence. Crashes are part of motor sports but in IRL recently they have happened over limits.

Let's see your proof. How about offering us the following:

Number of crashes OF ANY KIND per mile raced in 2007 for:
IRL
CCWS
ALMS
Grand Am
NASCAR

And then...

Number of SERIOUS (resulting in a driver missing at least one race due to injury) crashes per mile raced in 2007 for:
IRL
CCWS
ALMS
Grand Am
NASCAR

You made the comment, now let's see the proof. It's going to take some work on your part, but if you are going to make that sort of assessment, it is only fair that you are asked to back it up.

Either what you say is true, or you have just accepted, and then offered as fact, the statements made by fanitical fans at other forums that speak only with an agenda.

Without that proof, what you say is indeed insulting to "real IRL fans" everywhere, regardless of your intent.

By the way, I can remember (and attended) a minimum of 4 IRL oval races over the past few years where there was absolutely NO contact with anything - cars, walls, NOTHING - during the course of not only the race, but throughout the entire racing weekend for the ICS (although there were from the support series such as the Trucks).

Can you make that claim for CCWS?

[rpralon]

I will give you more effective data.

Last drivers who died in top racing series:

IRL : Paul Dana (2006) and Tony Renna (2003)
NASCAR : Dale Earnhardt Sr. (2001)
CART/CC: Gonzalo Rodrigues an Gred Morre ( 1999)
F1: Airton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger (1994)

[garyshell]

I will give you more effective data.

Last drivers who died in top racing series:

Sorry, no that is not effective data at all when you were talking about the number of crashes. Now you want to switch horses and talk about the number of deaths.

Nope, keep it on topic. What were the number of crashes per mile driven in the series?

And lets say, just for the sake of argument, that there were more in the ICS than CCWS. How do you make this sudden leap of faith, that because there are more that means the fans must WANT more? That's like suggesting that NFL fans only watch football to watch players carried off the field on stretchers. I suggest they watch in spite of the fact that there is an occasional player carried off the field.

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

Nope, keep it on topic. What were the number of crashes per mile driven in the series?


My god, what does this have to do with anything? I got "hit" from starter talking about the reality of the sport, that people die and we go here.

I think people need to grow up as this topic is for teenagers. As a person that lost person friends in Open Wheel I am offended by topics like this! :mad:

[garyshell]

I didn't want to insult any IRL fan, but I can't disconnect crashes involving multiple cars from IRL's image. I can't remember any oval IRL race without crashes and there are rumors that the series champion have gone to NASCAR due to security risks . So if somebody really doesn't want to see dangerous crashes and support IRL races seems to me a kind of incoherence. Crashes are part of motor sports but in IRL recently they have happened over limits.


Let's see your proof. How about offering us the following:

Number of crashes OF ANY KIND per mile raced in 2007 for:
IRL
CCWS
ALMS
Grand Am
NASCAR



I will give you more effective data.

Last drivers who died in top racing series:

IRL : Paul Dana (2006) and Tony Renna (2003)
NASCAR : Dale Earnhardt Sr. (2001)
CART/CC: Gonzalo Rodrigues an Gred Morre ( 1999)
F1: Airton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger (1994)


Sorry, no that is not effective data at all when you were talking about the number of crashes. Now you want to switch horses and talk about the number of deaths.

Nope, keep it on topic. What were the number of crashes per mile driven in the series?



My god, what does this have to do with anything? I got "hit" from starter talking about the reality of the sport, that people die and we go here.

I think people need to grow up as this topic is for teenagers. As a person that lost person friends in Open Wheel I am offended by topics like this! :mad:


Ah, I see. So you want to take my single sentence from a thread and insinuate that I am the one being callous or sophomoric? You really are a piece of work. tbyars and I were attempting to show how inane the comments that rpralon made about IRL fans wanting to see crashes and the high number of crashes he thinks there are in the IRL. If you had bothered to read the thread before trying again to pick a fight, you might have understood. But to save you the time of having to go back through the history of those messages in the thread, I pulled the pertinent ones out for you.

Gary

[rpralon]

From Fox Sports

IRL 2007

XM Satellite Radio Indy 300 Results

14 Danica Patrick 13 #7 Honda 0 154 accident 16 $39,100
16 Kosuke Matsuura 16 #55 Honda 3 92 accident 14 $38,600
17 Jeff Simmons 20 #17 Honda 0 90 accident 13 $35,200
18 A.J. Foyt IV 9 #22 Honda 0 90 accident 12 $35,200

Peak Antifreeze Indy 300 Results

18 Vitor Meira 15 #4 Honda 0 133 contact 12 $33,600
22 Marco Andretti 10 #26 Honda 0 34 contact 12 $31,300



Indy Japan 300 Results

16 Marco Andretti 10 #26 Honda 0 134 accident 14 $57,800
18 Kosuke Matsuura 9 #55 Honda 0 0 accident 12 $55,500

Kansas Lottery Indy 300

13 Scott Sharp 14 #8 Honda 0 195 contact 17 $39,600
17 Ed Carpenter 13 #20 Honda 0 99 contact 13 $34,400


Indy 500

17 Ed Carpenter 14 #20 Honda 0 164 accident 13 $246,305

22 Dan Wheldon 6 #10 Honda 0 163 accident 12 $231,805
24 Marco Andretti 9 #26 Honda 13 162 accident 12 $229,351
25 Buddy Rice 16 #15 Honda 0 162 accident 10 $222,805
27 Jaques Lazier 28 #21 Honda 2 155 accident 10 $207,389
28 Marty Roth 30 #25 Honda 0 148 accident 10 $216,305
29 Phil Giebler 33 #31 Honda 0 106 accident 10 $230,305
30 John Andretti 24 #33 Honda 0 95 accident 10 $204,305
31 Milka Duno 29 #23 Honda 0 65 accident 10 $213,555
32 Jon Herb 27 #19 Honda 0 51 accident 10 $193,305
33 Roberto Moreno 31 #77 Honda 0 36 accident 10 $224,805


ABC Supply/A.J. Foyt Indy 225

5 Marco Andretti 14 #26 Honda 0 209 contact 15 $39,900
16 Helio Castroneves 1 #3 Honda 126 201 contact 17 $48,500
18 Buddy Rice 7 #15 Honda 37 156 contact 12 $39,000


Bombardier Learjet 550k

15 Dan Wheldon 10 #10 Honda 52 196 contact 15 $37,900
16 Helio Castroneves 5 #3 Honda 0 196 contact 14 $36,600
17 A.J. Foyt IV 17 #22 Honda 0 195 contact 13 $35,200
18 Ed Carpenter 20 #20 Honda 0 195 contact 12 $35,200
20 Jon Herb 14 #19 Honda 0 44 contact 12 $32,600


Iowa Corn Indy 250

12 A.J. Foyt IV 10 #22 Honda 0 99 contact 18 $43,100
13 Danica Patrick 11 #7 Honda 1 99 contact 17 $41,800
14 Sam Hornish Jr. 8 #6 Honda 0 99 contact 16 $40,200
15 Kosuke Matsuura 16 #55 Honda 0 99 contact 15 $38,900
16 Tony Kanaan 7 #11 Honda 0 85 contact 14 $37,500
17 Jeff Simmons 6 #17 Honda 0 85 contact 13 $36,100
19 Tomas Scheckter 14 #2 Honda 0 0 contact 12 $34,600

SunTrust Indy Challenge

17 Kosuke Matsuura 18 #55 Honda 0 236 contact 13 $36,100
18 Jeff Simmons 11 #17 Honda 0 153 contact 12 $36,100

Camping World Watkins Glen Grand Prix
18 Helio Castroneves 1 #3 Honda 19 19 contact 12 $47,000

Firestone Indy 200

16 Kosuke Matsuura 13 #55 Honda 0 182 contact 14 $38,500
18 Tony Kanaan 3 #11 Honda 0 35 contact 12 $37,000

The Honda 200 at Mid-Ohio

8 Marco Andretti 4 #26 Honda 0 0 contact 12 $37,000


Firestone Indy 400

11 Tomas Scheckter 6 #2 Honda 2 144 contact 19 $43,200
12 Dan Wheldon 5 #10 Honda 24 143 contact 18 $41,900
13 Dario Franchitti 1 #27 Honda 101 143 contact 20 $50,700
14 Ed Carpenter 10 #20 Honda 0 143 contact 16 $39,100
15 Darren Manning 18 #14 Honda 0 113 contact 15 $37,900
16 Sarah Fisher 16 #5 Honda 0 83 contact 14 $36,600
17 Helio Castroneves 3 #3 Honda 0 58 contact 13 $35,200
18 Vitor Meira 11 #4 Honda 0 58 contact 12 $35,200
20 Jon Herb 20 #19 Honda 0 26 contact 12 $32,600


Meijer Indy 300

16 Danica Patrick 11 #7 Honda 0 180 contact 14 $38,500
17 Dan Wheldon 5 #10 Honda 0 37 contact 13 $37,000
18 Sam Hornish Jr. 7 #6 Honda 0 35 contact 12 $37,000


Motorola Indy 300
15 A.J. Foyt IV 15 #22 Honda 0 71 contact 15 $39,900
16 Marco Andretti 8 #26 Honda 2 68 contact 14 $40,500



Detroit Indy Grand Prix
7 Buddy Rice 15 #15 Honda 7 87 contact 26 $52,400
8 Scott Dixon 3 #9 Honda 0 87 contact 24 $49,000
13 Tomas Scheckter 9 #2 Honda 0 67 contact 17 $43,000
14 Helio Castroneves 1 #3 Honda 26 67 contact 16 $51,300
15 Vitor Meira 10 #4 Honda 0 31 contact 15 $39,900
16 Sarah Fisher 18 #5 Honda 0 29 contact 14 $38,500

Peak Antifreeze Indy 300
18 Vitor Meira 15 #4 Honda 0 133 contact 12 $33,600
22 Marco Andretti 10 #26 Honda 0 34 contact 12 $31,300

[rpralon]

CCWS 2007

Vegas Grand Prix

3 Sebastien Bourdais 16 #1 0 30 contact -- $18,000
15 Dan Clarke 12 #4 0 13 contact -- $17,000
16 Matt Halliday 14 #42 0 3 contact -- $16,000
17 Graham Rahal 10 #2 0 1 contact -- $16,000

Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach

16 Alex Figge 16 #29 0 69 contact -- $16,000
17 Mario Dominguez 10 #7 0 7 contact -- $16,000


Grand Prix of Houston
15 Neel Jani 4 #21 0 67 contact -- $17,000
16 Katherine Legge 17 #11 0 67 contact -- $16,000
17 Dan Clarke 12 #4 0 67 contact -- $16,000


Mazda Grand Prix of Portland
No contact or accident



LaSalle Bank Grand Prix of Cleveland

13 Tristan Gommendy 12 #22 0 34 contact -- $18,000
14 Jan Heylen 17 #34 0 34 contact -- $17,000
16 Bruno Junqueira 14 #19 0 6 contact -- $16,000

Grand Prix of Mont-Tremblant

No contact or accident

Steelback Grand Prix of Toronto

9 Sebastien Bourdais 1 #1 1 67 contact -- $20,000
10 Oriol Servia 3 #7 34 56 contact -- $19,000
11 Graham Rahal 15 #2 0 52 contact -- $19,000
12 Dan Clarke 13 #4 0 43 contact -- $18,000
13 Jan Heylen 8 #34 0 1 contact -- $18,000
14 Paul Tracy 10 #3 0 0 contact -- $17,000
15 Tristan Gommendy 14 #22 0 0 contact -- $17,000
16 Katherine Legge 16 #11 0 0 contact -- $16,000
17 Alex Figge 17 #29 0 0 contact -- $16,000


Rexall Grand Prix of Edmonton

14 Alex Tagliani 9 #8 0 69 contact -- $17,000

San Jose Grand Prix

4 Alex Figge 17 #29 0 84 contact -- $17,000
16 Katherine Legge 16 #11 0 13 contact -- $16,000
17 Dan Clarke 3 #4 0 6 contact -- $16,000



Generac Grand Prix

No contact or accident

Belgian Champ Car Grand

No contact or accident


Bavaria Beer Champ Car Grand Prix

No contact or accident


Lexmark Indy 300

16 Will Power 1 #5 10 18 contact -- $16,000
17 Dan Clarke 10 #4 0 12 contact -- $16,000



Gran Premio Tecate

No contact or accident

[rpralon]

CCWS 2007

14 races
27 contact or accident
1.92 contact or accident /race


IRL 2007
16 races
64 contact or accident
4 contact or accident /race

IRL 2007 had 2 times more contact or accident /race than CCWS 2007!!!

It's clear now ??

[indycool]

I'm 100 percent in agreement with Gary and tb.

All motorsports are dangerous. That element will always be there, regardless. The great strides made in safety through the years are known to real racing people and they know and acknowledge them.

I detest people trying to play agenda-driven specific "safety cards," because they all get "bitten" along the way in every form of motorsport and it's a tragedy when ANYBODY gets hurt and a very bad thing when equipment gets destroyed.

I had more to write, but Starter would shoot me if I did.

EDIT: rpralon, you can also take THAT nonsense and throw it away. Those come from boxscores during races as "reasons out." They do NOT count contacts or incidents that happened during practice, qualifying or during the race in which the car was fixed and kept going, or brushed a wall and continued, or spun in front of two guys who crashed and continued. That was a lot of work to come up with something absolutely worthless.

[nigelred5]

I will give you more effective data.

Last drivers who died in top racing series:

IRL : Paul Dana (2006) and Tony Renna (2003)
NASCAR : Dale Earnhardt Sr. (2001)
CART/CC: Gonzalo Rodrigues an Gred Morre ( 1999)
F1: Airton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger (1994)

AS horrible as it is to loose any driver to an accident of any kind ther eare some you have missed during that time frame and as I recall, only three of the above were during an actual race.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Rpalon...and all those stats mean what? Both series wreck race cars? Champ Car guys were making less than half of what IRL drivers were making?

Listen, stats will show not many useful trends in a 1 year sample. I would wager if one was to do such a gholuish exercise as crashes per mile or race, do it for the the history of both series.

I do know this much. Oval racing has greater repecussions in crash situations due to higher speeds, but I wouldn't say it was inheritly more likely one would wreck. I would also say that oval racing is interesting in the right venue, and many drivers might agree. Ovals are not going to go away and neither are the street or road courses. I wish people wouldn't try to open up this can of worms.

No form of racing is perfectly safe, but I do think in the future going forth, racing will be more safe. After that...all bets are off.

[weeflyonthewall]

It also helps by supplying cars that don't pretend to be airplanes!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=00RkJTAiZ28&feature=related

[garyshell]

CCWS 2007

14 races
27 contact or accident
1.92 contact or accident /race


IRL 2007
16 races
64 contact or accident
4 contact or accident /race


Ok, you are zeroing in on some REAL numbers. Good. But the best comparison would be accidents per driven mile.

Take your numbers you have for each event and average that against the number of drivers multiplied by the number of miles in the event. That is a gross number. More accurate than the accidents per event number, but still an inflated number, because it assumes everyone in the event drove every lap.

The REAL number would be the number of crashes averaged against the total number of miles actually driven by the participants. For example in a 2.5 mile race if driver x went out after 10 laps he would contribute 30 driver miles to the total. Another driver who made all 500 miles would contribute 500. While a third who finished the race two laps back would contribute 495 miles.

I suspect these numbers will close the gap a bit. I am curious how much.

Gary

[garyshell]

rpralon, you can also take THAT nonsense and throw it away. Those come from boxscores during races as "reasons out." They do NOT count contacts or incidents that happened during practice, qualifying or during the race in which the car was fixed and kept going, or brushed a wall and continued, or spun in front of two guys who crashed and continued. That was a lot of work to come up with something absolutely worthless.


Good point about the miles driven in practice and/or qualifying and the incidents there. To get even more accurate numbers those could be taken into account as well.

And you are right his "incident numbers" would only take into account the incidents that took someone out, and not the ones where the car continued. While, in my mind, the practice/qualifying numbers might be "optional" in a real evaluation, certainly the continued on incidents and miles would HAVE to be factored in.

This is a bit of a morbid exercise to be sure, but I think it would once and for all put to rest the notion that the ICS has more crashes. I honestly think that with proper stats applied we would find the incident rate to be very comparable in both series.

Gary

[tbyars]

This is a bit of a morbid exercise to be sure, but I think it would once and for all put to rest the notion that the ICS has more crashes. I honestly think that with proper stats applied we would find the incident rate to be very comparable in both series.

Absolutely agree.

And rpralon, that WAS the comparison I asked for...accidents per race mile driven. That is the only way to compare apples to apples. Otherwise, you could look at the NHRA and blow your stats out of the water. And it will be easy for you to do, because the box scores will always give you number of laps completed and the length of a single lap.

It's also important, IMO, to include at least NASCAR in that equation.

[grungex]

You could look at accidents per hour driven, too...

[!!WALDO!!]

Ah, I see. So you want to take my single sentence from a thread and insinuate that I am the one being callous or sophomoric? You really are a piece of work. tbyars and I were attempting to show how inane the comments that rpralon made about IRL fans wanting to see crashes and the high number of crashes he thinks there are in the IRL. If you had bothered to read the thread before trying again to pick a fight, you might have understood. But to save you the time of having to go back through the history of those messages in the thread, I pulled the pertinent ones out for you.

Gary

I got blasted by the Moderator for this garbage yet you think it ok.

Why give a person the time for a response. Complain to the Moderator, he shut one down already.

I DID NOT PICK A FIGHT IT IS IN POOR TASTE!! I HAVE BURIED 6 FRIENDS DUE TO CRASHES IN OPEN WHEEL. I JUST DO NOT LIKE IT!!

[pits4me]

I got blasted by the Moderator for this garbage yet you think it ok.

Why give a person the time for a response. Complain to the Moderator, he shut one down already.

I DID NOT PICK A FIGHT IT IS IN POOR TASTE!! I HAVE BURIED 6 FRIENDS DUE TO CRASHES IN OPEN WHEEL. I JUST DO NOT LIKE IT!!

It may not be the message as much as the way its being delivered. We have all lost loved ones and friends. When drivers become an everyday part of our lives, their departure is even more painful. Especially when the circumstances could have been avoided with due diligance.

[cartpix]

It also helps by supplying cars that don't pretend to be airplanes!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=00RkJTAiZ28&feature=related

All race cars make bad airplanes. In the right circumstances, all race cars will fly. It's made easier with open wheels. Let's not forget Jeff Kronoff's tragic flight, that killed both him & a track worker.

Jeff

[ChaimWitz]

Birds of a feather...

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-walker-racing-closes-down/

... do bad things together. I feel very sorry for DW. He is a good man but the company he kept caught up with him.

[jimispeed]

This says alot about the sponsorship interest generated from the so called "merger"......


I wonder what the car count will be??

[ShiftingGears]

This says alot about the sponsorship interest generated from the so called "merger"......

Noone guaranteed immediate success. Give it time...

[nanders]

You could look at accidents per hour driven, too...

In SIM Racing we calculate LPI "Laps per incident" to restrict drivers from actually entering the server we race on. This is to keep the quality of the race higher. I think this is a good idea. This year I will keep a LPI on Indy car drivers.


Noone guaranteed immediate success. Give it time...

The fallout will only get worse. I'm less optimistic about car count then most ... I think 6 cars are all you're going to get ..... Unless Tony opens the check book. You gotta think that some of the fringe teams will get cars for Indy though.

[bblocker68]

This says alot about the sponsorship interest generated from the so called "merger"......


I wonder what the car count will be??

23 as of today.

[BobGarage]

23 as of today.

where do you get that from.

By my count we have...

19 full time rides:-
Foyt - Manning
AGR - kanaan, andretti, Patrick, Mutoh
Ganassi - dixon, wheldon
Conquest - perera
Dreyer & reinbold - bell/Duno (sharing one seat between them)
NHL - Wilson, Rahal
Panther - meira
Rahal - hunter-raey
Roth - roth, howard
Penske - helio, briscoe
vision - foyt IV, carpenter

4 part time rdies
luczo-dragon - scheckter
fisher - fisher
rubicon - papis
beck - Yasukawa

still to be confirmed
Foyt - Pablo Donoso (heavily rumoured but nothing confirming it from foyt or the league
KV Racing - ? probably oriol although not yet confirmed + a.n.other
Minardi - ?
PCM - ?
conquest - 2nd car?
dreyer & reinbold - buddy rice? tested but not confirmed as driver yet
Panther - second car?
Rocketsports - ? unlikely.

[grungex]

Wasn't Donoso headed for IPS?

[bblocker68]

http://www.indycar.com/drivers/

I'm taking it from the horses mouth.

This is getting good.

[BobGarage]

http://www.indycar.com/drivers/

I'm taking it from the horses mouth.


that includes the part time drivers and people like Buddy, who has only tested and isn't yet signed with D&R, as they said themselves on indycar.com last week ;)

[Chris R]

yikes , there are a lot of white cars on that page - hopefully that will change soon!!

[garyshell]

In SIM Racing we calculate LPI "Laps per incident" to restrict drivers from actually entering the server we race on. This is to keep the quality of the race higher. I think this is a good idea. This year I will keep a LPI on Indy car drivers.

Are you going to post these somewhere? Are you going to keep stats for each race or just a running total? If the latter, you might want to segregate oval laps vs. non-ovals. I think that might be interesting, especially for the new folks with little or no oval experience, just to see how they adapt.

Gary

[nanders]

Are you going to post these somewhere? Are you going to keep stats for each race or just a running total? If the latter, you might want to segregate oval laps vs. non-ovals. I think that might be interesting, especially for the new folks with little or no oval experience, just to see how they adapt.

Gary

Gary this really shouldn't be that hard to do .... if I watch all the races :) . I'll DVR them all then take the laps they actually run and divide them by their incidents. Not just dnf incidents but any contact or spin they make. I'll put them in a excel spread sheet then I can post a total here and have a download link for the spread sheet.

I'll do the oval / non-oval thing.

The question is should we have a special category for incidents for people trying to miss Milka? The ICS is missing a good deal by not hooking her up as a nopi chick. :p

[ChaimWitz]

Hey, I am back... just like long lost Sanguin.

This tread is particularly relevant again as we enter what is to be the last weekend of ChampCar and the last gasp of The Split.

So What Happens Next?

How many cars will be left running by the end of the ChampCar race this weekend? How will the world look to you four days from now when ChampCar has run its last race and is only a memory? How long will The Kevster stay in the Indy Car Series before he finds another hobby. How much longer will the CCF Hater site continue? It is looking pretty nasty and cannibalistic over there these days. Just like the past 18 months of ChampCar.

[indycool]

This weekend seems to be getting a lot of exposure as the last roundup of CC. That follows the major exposure the SPORT got when it blendified. After this weekend, those who enjoy the SPORT move forward to Kansas, Indy and on down the trail. As that continues, F-Troop and those of that ilk become less meaningful to the SPORT, day-by-day.

[sanguin]

Hey, I am back... just like long lost Sanguin.

This tread is particularly relevant again as we enter what is to be the last weekend of ChampCar and the last gasp of The Split.

So What Happens Next?

How many cars will be left running by the end of the ChampCar race this weekend? How will the world look to you four days from now when ChampCar has run its last race and is only a memory? How long will The Kevster stay in the Indy Car Series before he finds another hobby. How much longer will the CCF Hater site continue? It is looking pretty nasty and cannibalistic over there these days. Just like the past 18 months of ChampCar.

I hope LB can survive the IRL takeover in the coming years,past history has shown other events haven't faired so well. It will be curious to see what happens with the Motegi date in 2009.

[indycool]

Well, one of 'em will change by a week, in all probability, and it'll probably be Motegi on Masters weekend because it can't possibly draw bigger TV ratings against it. Long Beach couldn't. That one is easy.

[Chaparral66]

I hope LB can survive the IRL takeover in the coming years,past history has shown other events haven't faired so well. It will be curious to see what happens with the Motegi date in 2009.

Long Beach will be just fine. Since this race has origins in F1 and CART's glory years, this race will whether the transition better than most. Besides, the reality of the new series is already settling in. Schedules in the coming years will work to maintain what they have, wherever they race. Some races gone from this year are expected to return, such as Cleveland and Portland, and hopefully, Leguna Seca.

[indycool]

I know we all like those venues, Chap, but finances and a promoter's decision to undertake the risk of finances for an Indycar race at all three of the venues you mentioned are very suspect and the IRL has a multi-year deal at Infineon for the same market as Laguna. I can understand traditionally CC fans hoping some of their favorite races come back -- some were races I enjoyed, too -- but those with the desire and the bucks will get races and those with OUR desire and not enough bucks won't.

[Chaparral66]

I know we all like those venues, Chap, but finances and a promoter's decision to undertake the risk of finances for an Indycar race at all three of the venues you mentioned are very suspect and the IRL has a multi-year deal at Infineon for the same market as Laguna. I can understand traditionally CC fans hoping some of their favorite races come back -- some were races I enjoyed, too -- but those with the desire and the bucks will get races and those with OUR desire and not enough bucks won't.

I understand what you're saying, but if you worked the schedule right, you could accomodate both Infineon and Laguna Seca. I have to believe that the venues that were with open wheel in the past now want a part of this deal if the IRL can be counted on to manage the series at a respectable level. Mid-Ohio used to co-exist just fine with Cleveland in the past under CART, I see no reason that can't happen again if they are spread apart enough. Of course, money talks; but if the IRL can avoid going NASCAR on venues in terms of sanction fees, bringing those traditional venues could work and it would help rebuild the new series creditability among longtime fans and help attract new ones. Yeah, I'm treating the glass as half full, but we're starting with a clean sheet of paper, no idea is too far outside the box.

[garyshell]

I hope LB can survive the IRL takeover in the coming years,past history has shown other events haven't faired so well. It will be curious to see what happens with the Motegi date in 2009.

Past history is pock marked with venues going away in BOTH series. You make it sound like this is the sole provenience of the IRL. You know very well that is not the case. Besides didn't we just see an event a week or so ago that was once a CCWS event that became an IRL event. And didn't we see a former CCWS driver win his first race there? And didn't we see a new contract signed to extend that event well into the future? And wasn't said event a street race just like Long Beach? Yep, you're right as always sanquin, the signs all point to LB going under next year.

Next...


Gary

Oh by the way what happend to your old tag line? Remember, it's all about the racing and the racing is good.

[nanders]

Long Beach will be just fine. Since this race has origins in F1 and CART's glory years, this race will whether the transition better than most. Besides, the reality of the new series is already settling in. Schedules in the coming years will work to maintain what they have, wherever they race. Some races gone from this year are expected to return, such as Cleveland and Portland, and hopefully, Leguna Seca.

Chap,

I've seen that Portland wants to be back on the schedule, but as of yet no one is stepping forward with a sanctioning fee. I haven't heard too many favorable things, do you have linkage to an article, or is this insider information?

A race fan friend from Cleveland tells me that real estate developers are trying to buy Burke airport to build high-end condo's or town homes and his impression is that, that race will never make a come-back. Do you have linkage?

Laguna would be wonderful. I believe that area of the country could sustain two race events per year. And even though Sears Point is in the "Wine Country" and has NASCAR amenities, the Monterrey area has more going for it as an IndyCar venue.

[nanders]

Yep, you're right as always sanquin, the signs all point to LB going under next year. Next... Gary

It's good to see Gary and sanquin back together again. ;)

[garyshell]

It's good to see Gary and sanquin back together again. ;)


You noticed in my first reply I had some restraint. I though, ok, the writing is on the wall, maybe the leopard will change its spots. So I backed off. Then he came forth with his usual drivel, so... :imubash:

Gary

[Chaparral66]

Chap,

I've seen that Portland wants to be back on the schedule, but as of yet no one is stepping forward with a sanctioning fee. I haven't heard too many favorable things, do you have linkage to an article, or is this insider information?

A race fan friend from Cleveland tells me that real estate developers are trying to buy Burke airport to build high-end condo's or town homes and his impression is that, that race will never make a come-back. Do you have linkage?

Laguna would be wonderful. I believe that area of the country could sustain two race events per year. And even though Sears Point is in the "Wine Country" and has NASCAR amenities, the Monterrey area has more going for it as an IndyCar venue.

I was just offering an opinion as to what the IRL should consider doing, Nanders. Part of the deal with the merger is that some of the courses that Champ Car was successful at, such as Road America, would have an opportunity to get back in at some point. If Indy Car is to be successful, I hope that they can realize the traditional value of a Cleveland, Road America, and Laguna Seca. For that matter, Michigan and Fontana, too.

[indycool]

Chap, "traditional value?"

CART moved Road America all over its schedule from July to October for years. Its fans tired of it and started coming in less numbers in the late '90s and early 2000s. It eventually became a track rental situation with CART and a lawsuit between Pook and RA that Mario fixed. CC dropped it. Then picked it up as a track rental. Then lost money.

This was a track, like Phoenix and Laguna, that circumstances and management of either both promoter and sanctioning body or one or the other, effectively just screwed up. "Traditional value" to us. Headache for the principals.

Same with Cleveland, which has had SEVEN different promoters play hot potato with it, literally, in some cases, giving it away. As much as I think Cleveland is the BEST road course around because a fan can see it all from the stands, that view isn't shared in its accounting office, whoever the promoter is.

Laguna was a wonderful place with "traditional value," but that was long ago, before Pook screwed it up by moving its traditional October date to June. After that destabilized the race completely, there was a try to move it back to September but the damage was done to "traditional value." Then CC abandoned it for San Jose because it just couldn't pay any more. It'd take a lot for the management there to put itself in that horrible position of almost going bankrupt again because of an Indy car race.

[Chaparral66]

Chap, "traditional value?"

CART moved Road America all over its schedule from July to October for years. Its fans tired of it and started coming in less numbers in the late '90s and early 2000s. It eventually became a track rental situation with CART and a lawsuit between Pook and RA that Mario fixed. CC dropped it. Then picked it up as a track rental. Then lost money.

This was a track, like Phoenix and Laguna, that circumstances and management of either both promoter and sanctioning body or one or the other, effectively just screwed up. "Traditional value" to us. Headache for the principals.

Same with Cleveland, which has had SEVEN different promoters play hot potato with it, literally, in some cases, giving it away. As much as I think Cleveland is the BEST road course around because a fan can see it all from the stands, that view isn't shared in its accounting office, whoever the promoter is.

Laguna was a wonderful place with "traditional value," but that was long ago, before Pook screwed it up by moving its traditional October date to June. After that destabilized the race completely, there was a try to move it back to September but the damage was done to "traditional value." Then CC abandoned it for San Jose because it just couldn't pay any more. It'd take a lot for the management there to put itself in that horrible position of almost going bankrupt again because of an Indy car race.

OK, I can't disagree with you on how Pook and the Amigos damaged the gate at these venues. But just because that happened hasn't changed the traditional and historical value of these great racetracks, has it, IC? These tracks were certainly mismanaged as far as how they were treated on CART/CC's schedule after the split happened, but under the new banner, we now have an opportunity to repair that damage. This will take time, of course. But I'm willing to wait it out. I promised you I'd keep an open mind about the new series, didn't I, IC? Now how about you? As a fan, I want this new series to find a way to return to those venues. I might not get all of them, but some, certainly. TG has the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of Pook and the Amigos, now here it is. I would love to see OWR return to Michigan, Fontana, Road America, Laguna Seca, right along side Milwuakee, Watkins Glen, Texas, and Indy. What could be wrong with that?

[indycool]

Nothing wrong with that, Chap.....I was just dealing in reality....gosh, CART was crapping on Road America BEFORE the split......when you say it will take time, I agree that it will, probably a number of years because the water is so poisoned in some places. The IRL let things die down a few years before they approached Mid-Ohio, which wasn't going to trust ANYBODY after what Pook did to 'em. I 'spect it'll be the same with some of these.

[ezhop7]

Why would anyone want Portland back on the schedule. The place has not keep up with the times . The concession area is not up to par, the city has put very little investment into the place. If I was TG I would try to get a oval/road /drag course track like Bristol but a 1 mile oval with a short road course and drag stripe maybe a areana for Basketball/hockey too built either in the Olympia or Seattle, or Tacoma area.
I know it is wishful thinking ain't happening to many tree huggers up there!

[Pat Wiatrowski]

I doubt if there are many fans in Wisconsin that want the .irl to race at Road America and George has been made aware of that by many of us.

[indycool]

Then why do several forums contain multiple wishes for a race at Road America?

IMO, but I think you may be speaking for fewer people than you're attempting to lead us to believe.

[nigelred5]

Cutting off the nose to spite the face. I'd rather see a long term deal signed to race at RA now and then take the chance seeing what Indycars actually evolved into than simply say Eff-it all and be without any quality open wheel racing for a long long time. Don't want to watch it, fine, don't go, don't turn on the TV. To those of us that DO want to see Indycars race on road courses in the US and have wanted to, Road America is a must.

So what happens when Indycar decides to run a Panoz Dp02 with 2.65l honda and cosworth turbos against Dallaras with the same power plants, with 30 car fields with a diverse field of drivers. PErsonally at this point, I wouldn't care if GW took over Indycar. Grow up, get over it or go wallow in the drool over at CCF. That place is a real joy right now. I love watching the implosion over there since all the cheerleaders over there are finally out in the open as paid shills just like I always suspected they were. If RA and Indycar want each other, they will sign a deal, just like all the other former CCWS venues.

Road America, Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca, Miller, Barber. Gilles Villenueve and Hermanos Rodriguez. I want to see real Road courses just as much as real ovals. Viable street/ temporary course events will survive but they will never and never should have been the answer to survival as we have seen.

[ChaimWitz]

Twenty four hours from now the split will be but a sad footnote to the long history of American open wheel racing (although I am sure Mark C and the hater site will continue to wish it was still 2004 and spring time for Paper and the Amigos again). The timing of both Danica's and Graham's wins could not have been better as the sport heads into a new era on the eve of its second century. With any luck today's race and the winner at Long Beach will put an exclamation point on fact that our sport is beginning the slow steady climb back to the summit of American motorsports. Think back to the bluster and Amigo ego spew of the past four years at Long Beach and then take a sobering walk through the final ChampCar paddock. I did so and it was clear that it was all a lie laced gambit doomed to failure. So what happens next now that the lies, cancellations and delusion have finally stopped? It looks like fertile ground for progress and growth to me so I'll hope for the best for a change. So, goodbye ChampCar. Hello future.

[Chaparral66]

Now we know what happens next. Lady Danica has won her first race, a milestone in American Motorsports. Gee, just in time in the aftermath of the merger. This should get the IRL some real publicity. Let's see if she makes the cover of Sports Illustrated, and makes the rounds on Letterman, Leno, Oprah, and the morning talks shows.

[ChaimWitz]

We aren't the only ones asking "what happens next":

From AOL.com's home page:

NASCAR Worried?
Danica's Win Could Spell Trouble
See Why Her Timing Is Perfect

STORY:

Patrick Might Heat Up Circuits' Rivalry

BY MONTE DUTTON, AOL
Posted: 2008-04-23 22:11:07
Filed Under: NASCAR
Sports Commentary

While several of NASCAR's best and brightest were strutting their stuff in Mexico, where Kyle Busch won yet again in the Nationwide Series, stock car racing was being upstaged, for once, by the Indy cars.

It's been awhile since that happened.

The embattled, but finally unified, Indy Racing League got a long awaited boost when Danica Patrick won for the first time. The first female Indy-car winner broke through in her 50th attempt.

NASCAR greatly benefited from the open-wheel split that lasted more than a decade. When it happened, in 1996, Indy cars were a potent, if already troubled, force in American motorsports. By the time the split finally ended this year, the long term decline in attendance and television ratings had relegated IRL and ChampCar alike into a once great, but trivialized, outpost of the sport.

So what happens next? Does Patrick's victory spur a long term restoration or just a short term boost? How does it affect NASCAR? Does a rise in open-wheel interest create a fall for NASCAR? Or is the health of motorsports overall beneficial for all parties?

There is no Danica Patrick on the NASCAR horizon. Women have occasionally competed but without notable success. NASCAR diversity efforts have been focused on ethnicity, not gender, in part because the modest success stories have mostly involved men.

This week, Patrick will enjoy the kind of acclaim normally reserved for a Daytona 500 or Indy 500 victor. Her victory occurs at almost a perfect time, leading into the tradition-filled month of May at Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Patrick was featured in a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue pictorial earlier this year. She is attractive, articulate and vitally concerned with her image. There won't be any reluctance on her part to capitalize on the attention.

If there is to be some torrid battle for attention, NASCAR also brings considerable firepower to the front lines. The next five weeks feature races likely to create excitement: perilous Talladega, roughhousing Richmond, tradition-rich Darlington, and then the two contrasting races, the rock-'em, sock-'em Sprint All-Star Race and the prolonged Coca-Cola 600, at Lowe's Motor Speedway. NASCAR's longest race falls on the same day as the IRL's most important, the Indianapolis 500. In recent years, television viewers have often preferred "the 600" to "the 500."

Tony Stewart is a two-time Cup champion, but he won the IRL title in 1997 and has twice competed in both Memorial Day weekend races on the same day. While Stewart's commitment to NASCAR has grown over the years, his concern for the plight of Indy cars remains. If the IRL hadn't declined, Stewart might have never left.

"I'm afraid, in all reality, it's hard to get sponsorship over there, and I think that's a big issue," Stewart said recently. "I don't think drivers are going to necessarily have the opportunities that they had when the IRL first started. It kind of weaned itself away from that, anyway, and it got to where just the financial side was too difficult. For (IRL) owners to get sponsors, too often they need a driver to come along and bring sponsorship dollars that give them an opportunity to get a ride.

"What the IRL was designed for in the first place was to get away from that and give opportunities to guys who didn't have multimillion-dollar partners and sponsors to help out. I don't know if it's ever going to get to that stage again. That's what the IRL was intended to do from the get-go, and it worked for a little while, but it still goes back to car owners having to rely on that sponsorship money to make it work."

How does Patrick's breakthrough affect the image of the IRL in the marketplace? It helps, but how much?

What makes this situation even testier is the fact that the economy is down a cylinder and struggling to find more horsepower. The economic engine drives race cars as much as the drivers. NASCAR attendance is down. Even a fan watching on TV can see it despite all the efforts by Fox and ESPN to shoot the action in a way that hides empty seats.

But, to borrow the lingo of journalists, only time will tell whether the Danica story "has legs." The 26-year-old female driver is going to be "the rage." What isn't known yet is whether she is going to be a savior.

[Chaparral66]

Lady Danica can't be the savior, that's too much pressure for anyone. What she can do is be a catalyst to spur interest in the combined series. But it's Our Good Friend Tony George and the IRL that need to use this historic moment as part of a much larger and more broad marketing strategy. That Danica won right before Indy (which tends to get the cynics launching NASCARiszation rumors of the Motegi win) should be a good boost for the Month Of May, so hopefully media interest will be higher than the last few years. But to make Danica the savior is unfair. We going to need more, and that comes in rivalries that will hopefully develop between Danica, Graham Rahal, Marco Andretti, Tony Kannan, et al.

[jimispeed]

The truth is that Indycar must put out a superior racing series, and become its own savior.

The history of a series is the soul of a series...

[ChaimWitz]

Lady Danica can't be the savior, that's too much pressure for anyone. What she can do is be a catalyst to spur interest in the combined series. But it's Our Good Friend Tony George and the IRL that need to use this historic moment as part of a much larger and more broad marketing strategy. That Danica won right before Indy (which tends to get the cynics launching NASCARiszation rumors of the Motegi win) should be a good boost for the Month Of May, so hopefully media interest will be higher than the last few years. But to make Danica the savior is unfair. We going to need more, and that comes in rivalries that will hopefully develop between Danica, Graham Rahal, Marco Andretti, Tony Kannan, et al.

Chaparral66, You are on the money with this. Let's hope that it isn't a Danicathon during the month of May. One personality does not a series make and there are many other dimensions to the sport other than just her win in Motegi. That said, her moment is now and the IndyCar Series must leverage it to the fullest to tell the greater story of the sport to as wide an audience as is possible.

[ChaimWitz]

The truth is that Indycar must put out a superior racing series, and become its own savior.

The history of a series is the soul of a series...

Amen. These thoughts more true now than ever before.

[Chaparral66]

You're both right. Like you say, I hope the media (of which I am a part) is smart enough to know that IndyCar is now much more multi-dimensional than Danica in a white bikini. Everybody now knows she can win, beating Helio Castroneves to do it (so what if it was a fuel mileage race. Nobody said speed was exclusive to winning, sometimes you win smart). Now it's just as important to see how Tony Kannan, Marco, Graham, and Justin Wilson do during May as well as Lady Danica.

[indycool]

I don't think anyone expects Danica to be the "saviour." She is A catalyst. Not THE catalyst. Blendification is a catalyst. Helio winning on Dancing with the Stars and developing the fence climb as a signature are catalysts. Graham winning at St. Pete is a catalyst. A full entry list at Indy is a catalyst. The strategy among the big teams -- Penske, AGR, Ganassi, N/H/L -- is a catalyst. The little teams that make the field at Indy will be catalysts. TV is a catalyst and the bells and whistles of the website are catalysts.

Together, they all elevate the sport, in different ways, at different times, with different impacts. But ALL of them take the exposure and level of the sport forward.

[garyshell]

I don't think anyone expects Danica to be the "saviour." She is A catalyst. Not THE catalyst. Blendification is a catalyst. Helio winning on Dancing with the Stars and developing the fence climb as a signature are catalysts. Graham winning at St. Pete is a catalyst. A full entry list at Indy is a catalyst. The strategy among the big teams -- Penske, AGR, Ganassi, N/H/L -- is a catalyst. The little teams that make the field at Indy will be catalysts. TV is a catalyst and the bells and whistles of the website are catalysts.

Together, they all elevate the sport, in different ways, at different times, with different impacts. But ALL of them take the exposure and level of the sport forward.

Aw, come on there IC. You are making just too much sense with this statement! <big ol' grin>

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

It was a year ago tomorrow that Dr. Jack posted "What Happens Next" to start this monster thread. It is interesting to look back at this now in light of what has happened since. Hey, has anyone seen Sanguin lately?


I have been a lurker here at these forums for a very long time. Like many of you here, I have been a fan of open wheel racing since I was a kid and find the events of this season challenging to my faith and devotion.

The truth is now out there for the few left who care to see it that this "breakout ChampCar season" is anything but. It now seems obvious that the promises made by the Amigos were a brazen ill-advised and ego-driven bluff. I have been in the racing business my entire professional life and I have never seen anything as sad and ugly as this has now become. I don't like being lied to or being played for a fool and it is clear many of you don't either.

Now many of you here are frustrated and are eating each other alive while looking for someone to blame for the pending and inevitible failure of ChampCar. Self esteem is falling faster the the CART stock price in 2003 and fanatical FTG blind enthusiasm is being replaced by a dread of what happens next.

So, what does happen next?

Another five year plan? Sorry. I won't even buy a five month plan from this bunch. The past 15 years have seen too many people on both sides of The Split trying to sell eternal hope against a backdrop harsh market reality.

How about a new owner for ChampCar?

I suspect that many of you hope that Gerry Forsythe does the deal and the other 2.5 Amigos simply become car owners. The assumption probably is that GF will hire the right people and spend money marketing the series properly and disaster will again be averted. Then all will be well in the collective minds (and egos) of those who believe that ChampCar has still got winning hand somehow burried in all this mess.

Reality check: Look at GF's team -- Is it well run and is it sponsored?

Regardless, I imagine Gerry has had his fill of losing his ass.

Don't hold your breath for anyone else to step in unless it is the man everyone loves to hate from the other side of Indianapolis.

The truth is that this nightmare should not go on another second.

Openwheel racing must begin healing itself and that start with the fans dropping their mouse pad and keyboard weapons.

Divided we have fallen. United we will stand agian.

The time is upon all of us to end this tragic Civil War by looking at the facts and finding a common, realistic way forward.

The market has spoken. ChampCar isn't a brand. It has no economy behind it. It is simply unsustainable without the ego-driven investment of a bunch of very rich guys who have proven themselves to be just another bunch of hobby racers.

Indy Car, despite the lies that justified its creation, is more viable than ChampCar becuase it has the power of perceived inevitabilty and a brand that is defined by the Indianapolis 500. It is also a series that looks more like a CART wannabe with each passing year rather than the open wheeled NASCAR clone it was originally envisioned to be. Some here also forget that CART's greatest successes came when it was called the PPG IndyCar World Series not CART or ChampCar.

You have all debated endlessly about who has more fans and who has better attendance on these forums. The facts are out there if anyone bothers to look at them objectively. For several years, TV ratings have proven that Champ Car does not work on American TV. That isn't going to change...ever.

On the other hand, Indy Car Series ratings are showing relative stability above the basement floor where ChampCar now lies.

Attendance is wildly overstated by promoters on both sides. I know because I count seats and grandstands at events. I have been doing it since the 1980s and I can tell you without hesitation that the numbers we hear for the "Three Day Festivals of Speed" are utter fantasy -- including Long Beach, which sadly now has under 30,000 grandstand seats.

The hard truth is that there simply needs to be one series if the sport is ever to grow and thrive again. This needs to happen sooner rather than later even if it means that Champ Car goes to the great race track in the sky along with Can-Am, Trans-Am, F-5000, IMSA Camel GT and CART.

I we all don't like the fact that the (son of CART) Champ Car series won't win we need to find some perspective or do something else with our time.

The fact is that so much of what was once ours is now in the Indy Car Series and not in Champ Car: Indy, Milwaukee, Motegi, Mid-Ohio, Detroit, Penske, Ganassi, (Andretti)Green, Rahal, Honda, Target, 7-11, Motorola, Franchitti, Kanan, Dixon... the list goes on. More importantly however is the fact that all of the races have sanction fee paying promoters and all but one is in the US. Oh, they are also still payed to be on network TV.

So what exacly is it everyone fighting for in ChampCar? The right to race in Europe and Asia with drivers few Americans have heard of and near zero mainstream media coverage in the USA and time buy races on ESPN Classic? I don't remember getting the memo with market data about about there being a strong demand for a GP2 style series based in North America.

What is it that actually remains from CART in ChampCar? Newman/Hass, Coyne, Walker.... Paul Tracy, Tags, Long Beach, Toronto, Mexico City, Surfers, Road America, Portland, Cosworth, Bridgestone and Formula Atlantic. That is not enough to win given the shaky state of things.

Perhaps all that really drives the hard core fans who are left now is hatred for Tony George and the blind egos of a few rich guys who want to get their way. Hmm... flip that and you will see an irony.

Think about who has more to bring to the equation commercially if the series were combined. I personally doubt this favors ChampCar and Kevin's bluster about "50/50 or nothing" has proven to be just that. Bluster.

Back to my original question: What happens next?

Will the Vegas GP die too? IMHO, this is highly likely given the losses.

Will there be a Champ Car race in China in 2008 or ever, for that matter?
Highly unlikely given recent history.

Will Portland be gone? Looks like yes unless Champ Car underwrites it which, seems unlikely.

Will CDW bail? Why would they stay? Who is there to do B2B business with in a ChampCar paddock? Aussie Vinyards? Sonny's BBQ? Lexington? Motorock?

Will any new teams or major sponsors with activation budgets really come into ChampCar given the putrid climate created by overpromising and underdelivering, managment confusion, in season event cancellations and the skanky scent of AVN Racing and Hustler Clubs wafting in the air? Without major sponsors how will the significant losses by almost every ChampCar promoter be stopped?

Will there really be a new series sponsor annouced? That is the longest of long shots and everyone here knows this. NASCAR's former Busch Series, the Indy Car Series or the American Le Mans Series have a far better chances given their relative stability and the fact they are brand driven properties that are at least attempting to market themselves and create value. I know that deeply offends some Champ Car diehards here but basing a business on an audience that hates Tony George (or the Frances or Bernie) is not a business proposition. There aren't enough of you.

So, what will ChampCar's schedule really be in 2008?

Forget Mark C's fanatical daydream schedule... Think about it realistically.

Maybe 11 real races?

In the USA: FOUR Races - Long Beach, Houston, Cleveland, Road America

In Canada: THREE Races - St. Jovite, Toronto, Edmonton

The rest: Zolder, Assen, Mexico City, Surfers

Will the other Euro races happen? This is probably more likely than Orlando ever coming to life...

Imagine the schedule gaps...

It will be pathetic if a 2008 ChampCar season like this comes to pass. Forgive me but I don't think this is a viable proposition to sponsors and is nothing more than more time and money swirling down a rat hole.

I still love this sport but I now want to see it whole again... with one culture and one fan base.

As someone wiser than me once said:

"You got to get busy livin' or get busy dyin".

So, what happens next... now that blind faith or hatred won't work any more?

[garyshell]

It was a year ago tomorrow that Dr. Jack posted "What Happens Next" to start this monster thread. It is interesting to look back at this now in light of what has happened since. Hey, has anyone seen Sanguin lately?


I think he is most likely feeling a bit "sanguine" per definition number 2 below...

san·guine http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png - [sang-gwin]
–adjective
1.cheerfully optimistic, hopeful, or confident: a sanguine disposition; sanguine expectations.
2.reddish; ruddy: a sanguine complexion.
3.(in old physiology) having blood as the predominating humor and consequently being ruddy-faced, cheerful, etc.
4.bloody; sanguinary.
5.blood-red; red.
6.Heraldry. a reddish-purple tincture.

Gary

[weeflyonthewall]

Many former board brethren have departed and moved on with their lives. Can we really blame them given the current state of open wheel? I expected a more aggressive approach to getting OW beyond a princess-centric series. Some middle ground between the two former series would be nice. The whole Surfer's thing is BS. No Cleveland, no Houston, two more seasons of the uglymobile, one engine supplier, one transition team dropping out, no title sponsor, team sponsors taking their money to NASCAR. Open wheel is still on life support and many fans are fed up with it.

[downtowndeco]

Many former board brethren have departed and moved on with their lives. Can we really blame them given the current state of open wheel? I expected a more aggressive approach to getting OW beyond a princess-centric series. Some middle ground between the two former series would be nice. The whole Surfer's thing is BS. No Cleveland, no Houston, two more seasons of the uglymobile, one engine supplier, one transition team dropping out, no title sponsor, team sponsors taking their money to NASCAR. Open wheel is still on life support and many fans are fed up with it.


Ratings up. Attendance up. 26/27 cars per race. Most diverse OW schedule in 15 years. Multipul winners this season.

You want CART/CCWS. They're gone and never coming back. Enjoy what you have for now while they tweak it over the next few years. Be glad that as many of the CC races and teams survived as they did considering how quickly and completely CCWS collapsed.

[SarahFan]

Ratings up. Attendance up. 26/27 cars per race. Most diverse OW schedule in 15 years. Multipul winners this season.

You want CART/CCWS. They're gone and never coming back. Enjoy what you have for now while they tweak it over the next few years. Be glad that as many of the CC races and teams survived as they did considering how quickly and completely CCWS collapsed.


IRL 2008 TV Ratings
Ovals
Homestead .8
Motegi .23
Kansas .66
Indy 4.5
Milwaukee .6
Texas .8
Iowa 1.1
Richmond .9
Nashville .5
Kentucky .43

Average with Indy: 1.05
Average without Indy: .68

Street/Road Circuits
St Pete .4
(Long Beach .8)
Watkins Glen 1.0
Mid Ohio 1.3
Edmonton (can't find ratings)
Sonoma .41

Average: .78 (excluding Edmonton)


and that's 9 of 16 races YTD down


so is it me or reality you have on ignore

[weeflyonthewall]

Ratings up. Attendance up. 26/27 cars per race. Most diverse OW schedule in 15 years. Multipul winners this season.

You want CART/CCWS. They're gone and never coming back. Enjoy what you have for now while they tweak it over the next few years. Be glad that as many of the CC races and teams survived as they did considering how quickly and completely CCWS collapsed.

Seriously? When there's only one domestic open wheel series to follow, it better have better attendance than years past.
Ratings? If they were that good then ICS would have stayed with ABC/ESPN for 2009.
Do multiple winners equate to exciting races? Its still the same old mega teams of Penske and TCGR with AGR in the background. Even they are struggling financially.
Is racing in Iowa and bullring ovals is your idea of diversity? Legacy places like Surfers, Laguna Seca, Road America, Road Atlanta, Cleveland, Fontana and Michigan are mine.
Did I say I wanted CART/CCWS? IRL? I'm looking for a product that neither CCWS or the IRL could deliver as a standalone series in the past several years. A combination of the best of both, not a continuation of "IRL think."
They add a few more right turn events and you think its a perfect product? Get some coffee, take a step back and rethink your perspective just like how Dr. Jack nailed it.

[Chaparral66]

We also have seen what else happens next, with this deal to put most IRL races on VS. The jury is out, way out, on this decision. We'll have to wait and see how VS. handles this, not only in coverage but promotion.

[SarahFan]

We also have seen what else happens next, with this deal to put most IRL races on VS. The jury is out, way out, on this decision. We'll have to wait and see how VS. handles this, not only in coverage but promotion.


after letting the Vs deal settle a couple weeks I'm confident as an established fan we are going to enjoy a improved product for a couple three years


my problem is i don't think rating are going to increase... or increase to a level that will warrant contiued extended coverage and promotion and in the end it will end up status quo at best...

[pits4me]

after letting the Vs deal settle a couple weeks I'm confident as an established fan we are going to enjoy a improved product for a couple three years

my problem is i don't think rating are going to increase... or increase to a level that will warrant contiued extended coverage and promotion and in the end it will end up status quo at best...

The key to Versus' success is how the network activates and incorporates this Indycar deal into their strategic growth. The Australia race will be a key component if you consider their reach into corporate global due to their America's Cup coverage.

Unfortunately, the IRL doesn't bring the breath of excitement to brand sponsorship as open wheel used to do.

The open wheel fragmentation has left deep scar tissue in the business community. Many companies refuse to endorse the TG mindset of building a series around his beloved Indy and the young lady driver with an attitude. They are looking for series branding and promotion of all the drivers.

They reportedly bring in series sponsors at bargain basement budgets which undermines what the teams need to survive. Why spend a few $mil when they can be an ICS associate for peanuts. I'd rather see these series associates be primary and secondary sponsors on race cars as part of an all inclusive package. Similar to the recent McDonalds deal in NHLR and CCWS.

Corporate sponsorhip is taking another turn for the worst. Looking for the best bang for the buck and ICS can't deliver.

Its time the participants at all levels rethink their survival strategy. Dwelling on the past isn't going to grow interest in open wheel either.

The series needs to get involved in the industries they rely on for sponsorship. Most of the players in apparel and accessories were in Las Vegas this week.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129121

The IRL should have been on the main floor along side the IZOD display with as many drivers in tow as possible. There were plenty of shoe manufacturers there who would have loved to meet Mr. Dancing Shoes Helio and discussed a branding strategy with Penske. It doesn't take to many of those deals to underwrite a campaign and provide advertising revenue for the TV broadcast.

[Chris R]

The roots of most auto racing - especially AOWR goes back to wealthy individuals spending money to have fun with nice cars. In the early days sponsorships were mostly from individuals who liked cars and put their company's name on the car for the heck of it (more or less).

Corporate sponsorship for racing only flourished when tobacco and alcohol had no other viable outlets for advertising and given the regulatory environment, I do not think those companies assessed their sponsorships all that closely.....

The bottom line is that we are seem to be pining for the days of flush sponsorship as though that is the norm when, in fact, the days of big sponsors were very short....

The "norm" in AOWR has been sponsorship by racing fans with varying degrees of money that is augmented by sponsorship from allied industries and various products that had no otehr way of advertising.

Instead of figuring out how to increase sponsorship, the IRL needs to learn how to live with less and how to attract and keep happy folks like Gerry Forsythe, Carl Russo, and Marty Roth who for the most part fund their racing out of pocket. It also need to figure out a formula that allows these guys to have fun, have a chance of showing well, strut their egos, and do it all for a fairly "reasonable" and stable amount of money.....

We do not necessarily need manufacturers as most of the history of the sport has been devoid of manufacturers - it is only the last 15 year or so that AOWR has come to be dominated by manufacturers and we can all see where that has gotten us......

Simple, respectable, and interesting is the key to the future of AOWR.....

[FormerFF]

I'm not sure what Honda's plans are for the ICS, but I see that they are moving up to the P1 class in the ALMS.

[fugariracing]

The waters are still murky. Remember too that TG provided the free chassis/engine leases this year for the ex-CC teams and without the necessary budget/funding, are they still going to remain afloat? Especially if the ROI in all likelihood will be less because of the TV deal. For all we know, Sonoma was PCM's swansong and they have gone from series to series selling off used equipment to advance up the next year.

What happens to Atlantic? KK and GF again said they were funding it for this year but where does it go when that deal runs out? Rumors have it IMSA want it but no deal is in place beyond this year.

And an opinion from my front. There's almost zero chance of TG moving up the debut of the new car from 2011. But, if he was really interested in growing the series, wouldn't he want to do anything in his power to get rid of the current ugly cars rather than coincide the debut of the new one with the 100th anniversary? It just seems risky to me that the new car, if it has issues, will be featured at the biggest event.

The fans are still at a stalemate too. The old IRL fans are po'd b/c their "vision" is morphing into what the old CC model was. Yet the CCF crew are not jumping aboard the series because their hatred burns deep and eternally for TG and the split, and they don't get over it.

At the time of the unification, I said the series should try to reach out to its fanbase first, and also attempt to market itself in a way that has far-reaching effects beyond the niche group which it currently falls in. Without fans you don't have a series and judging by the current product, and the new TV deal, that number is dwindling...

Just my .02. It will be interesting to see the attitudes and plans the teams have for down the road at Chicagoland next week.

[Bob Riebe]

The truth is that Indycar must put out a superior racing series, and become its own savior.

The history of a series is the soul of a series...
WIth the new rules you can kiss that good-bye, but as all "top" racing series, have become mediocre, there actually is no high standard to out-do; therefore failure to succeed illuminates how poor the product is.

[BrentJackson]

What happens next?

Well, it's a good question that will take time to answer.

Versus is on the surface a bad deal, but it could well turn out to be a big positive for Indycar. Comcast is very intent on using Versus to kick ESPN in the nuts, so if Comcast gets serious about this, and Indycar is equally serious in producing a good product, great racing and of course good quality TV broadcasting, than Versus could do for Indycar what ESPN did for NASCAR in the '90s. It's a gamble for sure, but considering the total garbage of ESPN promotion and broadcast quality, it was well-deserved to ditch them. The h*ll with the Mouse.

The Atlantics will probably survive, as I figure IMSA will move from sanctioning them to buying them, or at least co-owning with Forsythe. The IMSA teams have cash right now, and the prize money for the series is good enough to make a good living for those guys. It'll make it.

Certainly, the overall state of the sport is still a big problem - because merger or not things really haven't improved that much. It wasn't so much a merger as Kalkhoven selling out what was left of CC and its fans - a fact that I, and a large number of OW fans, hate his guts. What the IRL needs is to get out there and start promoting, showing off, pushing hard. The Dallara needs to go ASAP, waiting until 2011 is just going to do more damage to an already dented series. The CC guys will not support anything with Tony George anywhere near it, and the IRL guys range from unhappy about the merger to downright disgusted. See T***** to get the point.

[indycool]

Brent, I don't see any "disgust" about it in general at T*****. I see most of the IRL folks talking racing....granted, some are talking negatively about the IRL considering adoption of some CC measures and procedures.

But it's a few forum people and FTG people that are doing most of the complaining. No surprise.

As for the Dallara, it's fine until 2011. Economically, the ex-CC teams can't afford three new cars in four years. That would be insane. The Dallara has proven to be a reliable and well-developed chassis. Ex-CCers like to call it ugly. But the DP-01 was oversold to be the key to CC's success. It wasn't, and left CC spending millions looking for a magic wand. That ought to tell you something about how important it is to get rid of the Dallara.

[BrentJackson]

Brent, I don't see any "disgust" about it in general at T*****. I see most of the IRL folks talking racing....granted, some are talking negatively about the IRL considering adoption of some CC measures and procedures.

But it's a few forum people and FTG people that are doing most of the complaining. No surprise.

Have you missed the dozen or so threads by a bunch of different guys about how the IRL should go to the all ovals, American drivers mantra? It's become a bloody infection there - the likes of Jimmy Hendricks just won't shut up about it.


As for the Dallara, it's fine until 2011. Economically, the ex-CC teams can't afford three new cars in four years. That would be insane. The Dallara has proven to be a reliable and well-developed chassis. Ex-CCers like to call it ugly. But the DP-01 was oversold to be the key to CC's success. It wasn't, and left CC spending millions looking for a magic wand. That ought to tell you something about how important it is to get rid of the Dallara.

The Dallara is hideous, slow, sound ugly and inheirently gives the IRL teams years of advantage over the CC guys. The CC guys can - and have - beat the IRL guys on road courses (congrats Justin :) ) but they are miles off the pace on the ovals. If they want a level field, they need that new car ASAP.

[indycool]

1. Jimmy Hendricks is not the norm there.

2. They are not CC guys now. They are IRL guys.

[BrentJackson]

1. Jimmy Hendricks is not the norm there.

Sure as heck seems like it. He's got quite a number of supporters. I'm gonna stop talking about that other forum now.


2. They are not CC guys now. They are IRL guys.

In the minds of those of us who were CC diehards, they will ALWAYS be CC guys. They guys we rooted for, the guys we want to kick the crap out of the IRL guys.

[indycool]

Well, Brent, just hold that thought and grudge as long as you want to hold it. Your decision. I've never seen quotes from any of the competitors -- on either side -- who think that way.

It's one series now. Overwhelmingly, efforts for years by people such as Mario Andretti, promoters, sponsors, etc., have been trying to get it to one series. All those people seem to be pleased with that particular issue now.

[SarahFan]

Brent, I don't see any "disgust" about it in general at T*****. I see most of the IRL folks talking racing....granted, some are talking negatively about the IRL considering adoption of some CC measures and procedures.

But it's a few forum people and FTG people that are doing most of the complaining. No surprise.

As for the Dallara, it's fine until 2011. Economically, the ex-CC teams can't afford three new cars in four years. That would be insane. The Dallara has proven to be a reliable and well-developed chassis. Ex-CCers like to call it ugly. But the DP-01 was oversold to be the key to CC's success. It wasn't, and left CC spending millions looking for a magic wand. That ought to tell you something about how important it is to get rid of the Dallara.


current pole at TF is running 90% that the current IRL is closer to CARTII than the Vision....

that would suggest at even the most pro-IRL board fans of AOWR believe the IRL is mimicking a failed bankrupt model

[SarahFan]

Well, Brent, just hold that thought and grudge as long as you want to hold it. Your decision. I've never seen quotes from any of the competitors -- on either side -- who think that way.

It's one series now. Overwhelmingly, efforts for years by people such as Mario Andretti, promoters, sponsors, etc., have been trying to get it to one series. All those people seem to be pleased with that particular issue now.


2 of the sports most competitive racers have called it "Boring" and 'pathetic" the past couple of races

[indycool]

Closer to "CART II" in respect to schedule, NOT mimicking a failed business model. The schedule and the business plan are very different, starting with one series instead of two.

I don't know who you're talking about regarding boring races, but there have been a couple this year.....like any year, any series.

[SarahFan]

Closer to "CART II" in respect to schedule, NOT mimicking a failed business model. The schedule and the business plan are very different, starting with one series instead of two.

I don't know who you're talking about regarding boring races, but there have been a couple this year.....like any year, any series.


not just schedule IC.....yes the addition of roads and streets at an 8 to 1 pace...

but don't forget standing starts, fuel settings, parades, power teams and have nots, influentual owners, specs cars and engines, lack of cost control, turbos, red tires, Spike, er VS TV,

seriosly you don't think diehard fans like you find at TF can't see past the TV schedule do you?


and both Kannaan and Dixon, two of the most experienced and influential drivers in the paddock have called the past two races "boring" and Pitiful'....that's not good any way you slice it (but you'll try)

[indycool]

Yep. Both road races.

Only ex-(or current) CC fans still talk about standing starts. Fuel settings have been around for some time. Parades come on road and street courses and that's just a natural after side-by-sides on ovals. I haven't seen a thing about power teams and have nots of any consequence, other than Sarah Fisher offered Penske a car if he needed one when his truck burned down. You're never going to have "non-"influential owners. There are plenty of elements that are involved in auto racing, including the fans, and sponsors, promoters, car owners, etc., are GOING to have influence. It's ex-CC people yapping about cars and engines and dissing the Dallara on racing forums. Cost controls are still in place and the CC crowd made out quite generously on them by blendification, so nobody's yapping about that. Turbos? They've said it's on the table for the future specs and that's through meetings with potential manufacturers. No one seems to mind. Red tires? They might have them available but not mandatory. VS? Lot of talk but on ly time will tell.

[SarahFan]

Yep. Both road races.

Only ex-(or current) CC fans still talk about standing starts. Fuel settings have been around for some time. Parades come on road and street courses and that's just a natural after side-by-sides on ovals. I haven't seen a thing about power teams and have nots of any consequence, other than Sarah Fisher offered Penske a car if he needed one when his truck burned down. You're never going to have "non-"influential owners. There are plenty of elements that are involved in auto racing, including the fans, and sponsors, promoters, car owners, etc., are GOING to have influence. It's ex-CC people yapping about cars and engines and dissing the Dallara on racing forums. Cost controls are still in place and the CC crowd made out quite generously on them by blendification, so nobody's yapping about that. Turbos? They've said it's on the table for the future specs and that's through meetings with potential manufacturers. No one seems to mind. Red tires? They might have them available but not mandatory. VS? Lot of talk but on ly time will tell.


I have no idea what that mumbojumbo is suppossed to mean.....


again.... 90% of the fans at a pro-irl board believe that the current direction of the IRL closely resembles that of Failed bankrupt series...

I find that concerning.... i guess you don't

[indycool]

Ken, you are a master of misrepresentation.

If you said that the direction acts like the old PPG Indy Car World Series in the '80s, when PPG powered CART with serious bucks at the time and grew the sport around Indy, I'd say that direction is pretty accurate.

If you said (as you have) that the series is mimicking the failed bankrupt series (CART without Indy) or CC (without much of anything except four years wasted), it's absolutely untrue.

And if you sell the latter in that poll at the other forum and give the posters THAT choice, you'll find the response far different, IMO.

[garyshell]

Only ex-(or current) CC fans still talk about standing starts.


Does that include the announcers on the internet video of practice on Friday? There was quite a bit of talk about it there.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ken, you are a master of misrepresentation.

If you said that the direction acts like the old PPG Indy Car World Series in the '80s, when PPG powered CART with serious bucks at the time and grew the sport around Indy, I'd say that direction is pretty accurate.

If you said (as you have) that the series is mimicking the failed bankrupt series (CART without Indy) or CC (without much of anything except four years wasted), it's absolutely untrue.

And if you sell the latter in that poll at the other forum and give the posters THAT choice, you'll find the response far different, IMO.


it's amazing how little credit you give diehard AOWRfans

[indycool]

Didn't hear it, Gary, but if you say they speculated on it, I believe you.

[-Helix-]

I have no idea what that mumbojumbo is suppossed to mean.....


again.... 90% of the fans at a pro-irl board believe that the current direction of the IRL closely resembles that of Failed bankrupt series...

I find that concerning.... i guess you don't

And how is trying to recreate the most successful and popular era of AOWR a bad thing?

Personally I find that the opposite of concerning.

CART failed because it lost the Indy 500. Last time I looked, the IRL still has it.

The guys at TF are simpletons that think racing only exists on ovals. Sure, there may be bad road/street races such as Belle Isle and Sonoma, but the same thing goes for ovals. (Motegi, Kansas, Homestead, etc, etc) That doesn't mean the IRL should drop all ovals, so why the double standard?

[SarahFan]

And how is trying to recreate the most successful and popular era of AOWR a bad thing?

Personally I find that the opposite of concerning.

CART failed because it lost the Indy 500. Last time I looked, the IRL still has it.


are they recreating CART circa 1995.... or CART/CC 1996-2007

[JSH]

are they recreating CART circa 1995.... or CART/CC 1996-2007


Well, it sounds like you're just trying to recreate an argument that everybody else it over. :s nore:

[-Helix-]

are they recreating CART circa 1995.... or CART/CC 1996-2007

Well lets see... theres ONE series... with the Indy 500... which CART does that sound more like?

[SarahFan]

Well, it sounds like you're just trying to recreate an argument that everybody else it over. :s nore:


everyone else is over?

you can't be serios.... or just not reading the boards becuase some serios long time supporters are not happy about the current direction of NAOWR

[SarahFan]

Well lets see... theres ONE series... with the Indy 500... which CART does that sound more like?

sounds like a small piece of the big picture

[-Helix-]

everyone else is over?

you can't be serios.... or just not reading the boards becuase some serios long time supporters are not happy about the current direction of NAOWR

Which direction is that? The increased car counts? the increased popularity? the added schedule diversity? the promising new TV contract where we won't be treated like second class citizens anymore?

Yeah, I'm pretty pissed at the potential and bright future AOWR has too. :rolleyes:

[-Helix-]

sounds like a small piece of the big picture

A small piece? You can't get a much bigger picture of an AOWR series. The Indy 500 IS AOWR. CART lost it and failed. The IRL has it and thus has the potential to actually survive and prosper much like the last time we had one single series that ran the Indy 500.

[SarahFan]

Which direction is that? The increased car counts? the increased popularity? the added schedule diversity? the promising new TV contract where we won't be treated like second class citizens anymore?

Yeah, I'm pretty pissed at the potential and bright future AOWR has too. :rolleyes:

well where to start.... I'll go with the question I've asked that has yet to be answered in another thread...


with the IRL adding rights at an 8-1 pace over the past 3 seasons....and with the IRL chosing to not add ready viable ready to run ovals with promotors inplace.... and with numerous street coarse looking to get on the schedule in coming years...

what makes you confident we won't see the schedule evolve further from ovalcentricity than it already is?

a conundrum that plaqued CC over it's last 1/2 decade and led to it's ultimate demise

[SarahFan]

Which direction is that? The increased car counts? the increased popularity? the added schedule diversity? the promising new TV contract where we won't be treated like second class citizens anymore?

Yeah, I'm pretty pissed at the potential and bright future AOWR has too. :rolleyes:


read the boards.... i'm not telling how YOU how YOU should feel...

but make no mistake your in the increasing minority

[SarahFan]

A small piece? You can't get a much bigger picture of an AOWR series. The Indy 500 IS AOWR. CART lost it and failed. The IRL has it and thus has the potential to actually survive and prosper much like the last time we had one single series that ran the Indy 500.

increased popularity=9 of the first 16 races down in TV ratings

huh?

[SarahFan]

promising TV contract?

that seriosly remains to be seen....

cable ratings for AOWR racing have averaged below 1.0 for four seasons......that's test pattern range..


yes as an established fan we will get improved extended coverage.... but there is ZERO evidence that VS is going to create better ratings, improved ROI for sponsors and created more funding for teams

[Rex Monaco]

The roots of most auto racing - especially AOWR goes back to wealthy individuals spending money to have fun with nice cars.

AOWR (and oval racing) at it's very early roots were manufacturers entering 500 mile endurance races (and hill climbs) to prove the reliability of their product to the early motoring public.

American sports car racing, which came later, is rooted in the rich playing with their toys on road coarses.

[Chaparral66]

If I could weigh in bit...I think 2011 is a good date for a new car. The merger just happened and trying to force feed a new car through (unless people are willing to go with a DP-01, and that's not going to happen) in a year when the new teams are just getting aclimated to the Dalleras would be a disaster. Better to stay with the current timetable of 2011, where everyone can be on the same clean sheet of paper starting out.

I think some people underestimate the patience of the fans. Sure there will always be diehards, but I think most understand what is going on in open wheel and are willing to wait it out. Even going on VS could be a silver lining, given enough time to work some things out. That can be said for the series as a whole. Can't rush this stuff.

[NickFalzone]

promising TV contract?

that seriosly remains to be seen....

cable ratings for AOWR racing have averaged below 1.0 for four seasons......that's test pattern range..


yes as an established fan we will get improved extended coverage.... but there is ZERO evidence that VS is going to create better ratings, improved ROI for sponsors and created more funding for teams

It's called marketing. You really think the quality of the on-track product can be judged by looking at the tv ratings? What world are you living in? It's a catch 22, you need ratings to get the sponsors to get the marketing. I do not think the IRL is going to be getting better ratings on VS, but who knows by 2011? If VS markets their product and has longer airtimes, then perhaps the series can grow. No guarantees, but I think everyone would agree that it got lost on the various ESPN channels and certainly did not get much promotion there.

[Chaparral66]

It's called marketing. You really think the quality of the on-track product can be judged by looking at the tv ratings? What world are you living in? It's a catch 22, you need ratings to get the sponsors to get the marketing. I do not think the IRL is going to be getting better ratings on VS, but who knows by 2011? If VS markets their product and has longer airtimes, then perhaps the series can grow. No guarantees, but I think everyone would agree that it got lost on the various ESPN channels and certainly did not get much promotion there.

Not to speak for Ken, but I don't think he was equating the quality of the on-track product with the TV ratings. He was just talking about the VS deal. One has nothing to do with the other, at least not all the time.

ESPN is the larger network with a wider audience. But if VS is hungry enough, and can focus its marketing efforts to get the word out, maybe it can work. But that is a double barreled challenge. They have to get out the word not only about Indy Cars, but about VS itself.

[NickFalzone]

Not to speak for Ken, but I don't think he was equating the quality of the on-track product with the TV ratings. He was just talking about the VS deal. One has nothing to do with the other, at least not all the time.

ESPN is the larger network with a wider audience. But if VS is hungry enough, and can focus its marketing efforts to get the word out, maybe it can work. But that is a double barreled challenge. They have to get out the word not only about Indy Cars, but about VS itself.

Well, to use a favoriate Curt Cavin phrase, "the reality is" that the IRL audience is a .5 to 1.0, and that size audience generally follows the races wherever and whenever they're on. I do not think there are a lot of casual IndyCar fans left. They generally find the channel when it comes race time. Realistically, we can expect that to drop by about a third at least at the start of next season unless VS really markets the hell out of the opener. If they're doing ESPN #'s by season's end, that will be a real accomplishment. If they're doing better, that would be a huge success. As a viewer, I'm just glad that they're guaranteeing much larger blocks of time than ESPN, along with no runovers from earlier sports programming. I don't know how this deal will work out in the long run for the series, but I can say that as a TV viewer of the series, I'm definitely looking forward to next season.

[weeflyonthewall]

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the "merger" is only 8 months old. It absolutely will need a full year and a half to start seeing some results. Look at it again at this time next year. If it's just as bad or worse, then I'll agree with you.

Everyone has forgotten this all came down 8 months ago?
Usually results are normally the effect of good planning and execution are they not? We had two competing series with two different business objectives. Is it so difficult to acknowledge that Champ Car got a few things right?

[indycool]

What would those be that you're referring to?

[-Helix-]

promising TV contract?

that seriosly remains to be seen....

cable ratings for AOWR racing have averaged below 1.0 for four seasons......that's test pattern range..


yes as an established fan we will get improved extended coverage.... but there is ZERO evidence that VS is going to create better ratings, improved ROI for sponsors and created more funding for teams

What the ***** do ratings have to do with the product?

I guess I should be watching NASCAR with that logic because they obviously have the best "racing". :rolleyes:

Extended and better coverage on a network that will actually put effort into promoting the sport sounds good to me. How is it NOT promising? All the reports about sponsorships have said that the new deal has been POSITIVE for sponsors if anything. More air time = more exposure.

[-Helix-]

increased popularity=9 of the first 16 races down in TV ratings

huh?

Well what do you expect being stranded and forgotten on ESPN where NASCAR is the only form of racing that actually matters?

Attendance is up. Media coverage is up. Interest is up. Popularity is up. TV coverage still sucks. Though hopefully that will change next year.

[Miatanut]

Which direction is that? The increased car counts

Car counts are up because one of the two series went out of business shortly before the season started and those teams were faces with a choice between the IRL and closing down. Some closed down, the rest chose the IRL. I would be shocked of none of those that chose the IRL choose to do ALMS or GrandAm next year instead.

[Rex Monaco]

Attendance is up. Media coverage is up. Interest is up. Popularity is up.

Well I guess the IRL doesn't need Viagra as a sponor then. ;)

[Marbles]

Well I guess the IRL doesn't need Viagra as a sponor then. ;)


Buh doop pah!

You guys have worked together before, I can't remember where though. Catskills?

[-Helix-]

Car counts are up because one of the two series went out of business shortly before the season started and those teams were faces with a choice between the IRL and closing down. Some closed down, the rest chose the IRL. I would be shocked of none of those that chose the IRL choose to do ALMS or GrandAm next year instead.

ALMS or GrandAM? Maybe in addition to. But instead of IndyCar? Uhh.. Doubt it.

And I was talking about next season, not this one.

We probably won't see a single entry list with under 28 cars next year.

And it's only going to get better as the sport re-grows and a new (and hopefully cheaper) formula comes out in a few years.

[SarahFan]

Well what do you expect being stranded and forgotten on ESPN where NASCAR is the only form of racing that actually matters?

Attendance is up. Media coverage is up. Interest is up. Popularity is up. TV coverage still sucks. Though hopefully that will change next year.

attendance up....

come on d get serios

the last three races have seen

A. an announced sellout and capicity crowd that was clearly 1/2 full at best....how CC

B. the stands at Sanoma speak for themselves

C. Belle Isle... where thay had just over 24k seats erected that were .... well lets just say not full

[indycool]

http://thescore.ibj.com/content/?p=484#respond

[Pat Wiatrowski]

http://thescore.ibj.com/content/?p=484#respond

Nothing more than PR.

[Miatanut]

We probably won't see a single entry list with under 28 cars next year.
To do that, Tony would have to keep subsidizing cars. Why would he do that? There is no competition any more.

I would expect the norm will be 24 cars.

I guess we will see.

[DBell]

http://thescore.ibj.com/content/?p=484#respond


I found this quote interesting.


The new TV deal has lengthened negotiations, Brown said. “Since the TV buy figures into the deal and we’re not dealing with what we were dealing with six months ago, it’s required us to step back and do a re-presentation.”

Why did he call it a TV buy? It's supposed to be a paid contract from Versus isn't it? Maybe he misspoke or phrased it badly, but calling it a TV buy gives the connotation that the IRL is buying TV time.

[Chris R]

interesting note about the "TV buy" - one of those things that makes you go "hmmmm" - perhaps for no good reason - but....

as far as car count - I think the Detroit count of 25 is more like what we will be seeing for the foreseeable future..... Honestly , a healthy 22 is fine by me - we need to be well clear of 18 but we do not need to be ending cars home right yet.....

[indycool]

Knowing how those negotiations go, and "activation money" being negotiated back into them, I can understand what Brown is talking about and it's not a TV time buy. Since Brown is an agency, with more TV time on a different network in a different deal involved, there is probably a commission involved in "taking" a potential sponsor to the network as part of the deal for "X" TV advertising in addition to other parts of a potential deal.

That ain't new. For NASCAR (or maybe CART started it because it was done by CART in the mid '80s), sometimes the race sponsor will be ID'd by the announcers and graphics as the race sponsor, i.e., the XYZ 300. If the race sponsor isn't on board with "activation," (read that $), it's the Phoenix 300 or the Milwaukee 300.

[ShiftingGears]

Hmmm...24 or 17/18, which is better?

If either CC or IRL had 24 cars last year they would have thought they'd died and went to heaven. Sorry, I just don't see a problem here.

The number of cars isn't important compared to the audience.

MotoGP has had 18 entries at a significant number of races, and at Brno the amount of spectators on race day was 140000 people.

IMO the amount of progress made during the first season of the combined AOWR series has been less than I expected.

[Chris R]

IMO the amount of progress made during the first season of the combined AOWR series has been less than I expected.


I would agree - I am not all doom and gloom about the future - but I expected a little more forward progress from this season....

That being said - the first season of unification was far from a failure...

The message is that I EXPECT more from the unified series in the next season or two (not that anyone really cares what I expect :D )

[Miatanut]

Hmmm...24 or 17/18, which is better?

If either CC or IRL had 24 cars last year they would have thought they'd died and went to heaven. Sorry, I just don't see a problem here.

I got spoiled by 28 screaming cars with about 25,000 HP blasting into T1, carrying a big wind with them. The smell of burning brakes. Having it take more than five seconds for the whole field to file past on the at the first turn of the first lap. Good times!

If the sport is going to come back and have the resources to put on a show which would be of interest to those of us in it for the technology, they are going to need to do better than 24, with six paid for by Tony.

I'd like something which would make me want to watch it. Even be excited to watch it. I want the thrill to come back.

If CCWS had 24 cars last year, and they were all the same car, I might have felt hope for the future, but it still would have been a spec car series to me. Maybe that was CCWS's downfall. They introduced a new spec car with great fanfare, and the gearheads which flocked to CART races said 'Meh'.

[pits4me]

I would agree - I am not all doom and gloom about the future - but I expected a little more forward progress from this season....

That being said - the first season of unification was far from a failure...

The message is that I EXPECT more from the unified series in the next season or two (not that anyone really cares what I expect :D )

Tactically it may have been successful but strategically not even as much as a comprehensive plan for improvement.

All the hype sounds more like a political party than a racing series trying to survive.

[indycool]

Well, Miatanut, go to Indy then.....and hear 33 of 'em scream by the way you describe.

[Miatanut]

Well, Miatanut, go to Indy then.....and hear 33 of 'em scream by the way you describe.

While Indy was my introduction to American open wheel racing, I lost interest in Indy in '92 when Tony refused to admit he should of taken the advice of John Fitch and others who had published articles about installing energy absorbtion systems over the outside wall at Indy, and then began a smear campaign against Jovy (after he was Atlantic RoTY and Atlantic Champion). He took a lot of credit years later when he finally installed such a system. As a result, Indy '91 was the last I watched. Indy doesn't have the burning brake smell, on account of they no longer use the brakes to corner at Indy.

Portland, Vancouver, Laguna & Long Beach were all a lot of fun.

Oh, wait. They are no longer part of the schedule.

[indycool]

I recall no such smear campaign against the late Jovy Marcelo. I remember something about a helmet or seat belt system not being right for some reason but it didn't constitute a smear campaign.

If you want to smell brakes and tire smoke, get a seat in the tower terrace.

[Chris R]

I do not remember a "smear campaign" per se - but I think I remember I lot of talk about him not being experienced enough to be at Indy etc.....

[indycool]

The talk wasn't centered so much about Marcelo as a driver but the whole team -- Antonio Ferrari's bunch wasn't much and he wasn't particularly good at paying his bills, which made the race car suspect.

[Miatanut]

I do not remember a "smear campaign" per se - but I think I remember I lot of talk about him not being experienced enough to be at Indy etc.....

The Atlantic Rookie of the Year and the following year's Atlantic champ? Did you ever see him race? I did. Several times in person. The kid was gifted. No, he didn't have years of racing dirt ovals, but he clearly knew a lot more about what to do behind the wheel of a car than a lot of Indy first-timers. But to Tony, "inexperience" was an easy card to play. He objected to earlier proposals for Safer-type barrier because they would cause an unacceptable reduction of track width. That left him in a vulnerable position given the particulars of this accident, and "The best defense is a good offense."

[indycool]

Miatanut, that, IMO, is patently ridiculous. The elements of safety in racing at the time were as good as they could be. Technology and thinking has improved them since. That's just how things and time progress. Since Marcelo's tragic death, the HANS device has been developed and proven, the SAFER barrier has been developed and proven, cockpit safety has been improved. There are people out there who you or me don't even know about working on a cure for cancer and when they find one, I'm not gonna say, "Gee, they should've thought of that 20 years ago."

[Miatanut]

Miatanut, that, IMO, is patently ridiculous. The elements of safety in racing at the time were as good as they could be. Technology and thinking has improved them since. That's just how things and time progress. Since Marcelo's tragic death, the HANS device has been developed and proven, the SAFER barrier has been developed and proven, cockpit safety has been improved. There are people out there who you or me don't even know about working on a cure for cancer and when they find one, I'm not gonna say, "Gee, they should've thought of that 20 years ago."

In the years before Jovy's accident, On Track ran a couple articles a year on race track safety, in which Indy was always prominently featured and they described what is now known as the Safer Barrier, because John Fitch had already worked it out. Tony wouldn't go for it. That's why I started my boycott of Indy after Jovy's death and Tony's inappropriate statements, trying to keep the heat off himself. It was just classic Hulman/George stuff. The modern version is the gearboxes sticking out the back end and the cars which fly too easily. If somebody gets rubbed-out from time to time, it makes it more of a spectacle. I reached my fill. I recognize many haven't. Yet. It took me two years to get my stomach for it back after '73.

They had an obvious problem and they were way behind the curve in correcting it. Same as now.

[indycool]

Baloney. We live and learn. Where was the Internet 20 years ago? The gearbox issue has been fixed. The "flying cars" phenomenon has been fixed, although don't expect a car not to "fly" if a wheel runs over another one. Maybe our thinking will progress someday to where a frog has wings and won't drag his caboose.

If you have read quotes from safety experts like John Melvin through the years, or Kirk Russell on car construction, there is another factor in effecting safety -- that you don't create a worse situation in another area.

Track too narrow with "X" idea? Maybe with decreased track width, cars would run into each other more often because they wouldn't have as much room.

Your comment about people getting "rubbed out" being okay with ANYBODY is unacceptable, to use a mild word for something the moderators should have taken out entirely.