What Happens Next?

[heelntoe]

Who said it would be 50/50,ovalcentric doesn't mean that. With the owner of IMS in charge without fetters, he could run amok without being fired or stopped. Getting rid of events that don't suit him or his business by making unreasonable demands and then dropping them saying its they're fault. We've seen that already.

See you at Long Beach :D

Haven't gone to Indy since 1995.

I never understand why you continuously open yourself up to get slammed with posts like this UNLESS you mean that we've seen this already with Champcar. Your entire "out of control" theory about TG above is EXACTLY what the Amigos have been doing with Champcar since they bought the series. And frankly, it's truly a shame that the Amigos can't be fired or stopped.

[ChaimWitz]

As for "ovalcentric", my point was that the event (Indy 500) that defines the sport and culture of America open wheel racing is an oval (IMS). Unless you can prove that you and your friends (employers?) The Sacred Amigos own that word, I will continue to use it as I see fit.

Running amok has certainly not been limited to TG and his merry men. All eras of CART and Champ Car have also seen sterling examples of the art and science of "amoking up". The current era in particular is a primer on how to lose friends and negatively influence people. One disturbing trend we have seen from both sides is the dropping of events that don't make sense. Has anyone bothered to really understand why? You can't always blame the promoter. BTW, how many of Champ Car's races are actually paying a real sanction fee these days? I keep hearing that Laguna Seca, Portland, St. Jovite, Road America, Zolder, and Jerez are freebees. I guess you can't blame the promoter then!

Sanguin, I'll will see you in Long Beach. I have been to every LBGP since day one and have seen F-5000, F1, CART Indy Cars then the OWRS Champ Cars which, BTW, have been the least impressive show. I always wonder if I am seeing the last OWRS race there and I am sure I am not alone in that regard. The ALMS race there last year was outstanding and their paddock made Champ Car's look like a pathertic club race by comparison. I am not happy to see that and I doubt that things will change this year despite the usual blind zeal of the TG failthful here and on CCF. Regardless, my hope is that this race lives to see a better day but I doubt it will come at the hands of the current event and series ownership who seem to be influenced by delusions and fanatics rather than common sense.

[pvtjoker]

I never understand why you continuously open yourself up to get slammed with posts like this UNLESS you mean that we've seen this already with Champcar. Your entire "out of control" theory about TG above is EXACTLY what the Amigos have been doing with Champcar since they bought the series. And frankly, it's truly a shame that the Amigos can't be fired or stopped.


I agree. While the Amigos have shown they can run billion dollar businesses, they have equally shown their ineptness in running a race series.

[Colt21]

a new car, new events, revived Atlantics with the winner going to CC, tv contract,new teams,an engine manufacturer,that's quite an accomplishment in 4 years. Much more than the IRL has done in 12.

If a promoter doesn't put on a race, it doesn't take away anything from what the series has already achieved. Things need to be done ,absolutely.But its not the end of the world,or the IRL would fold without Michigan too. Maybe I'm not understanding that one race that never happened is outweighing all the good racing I saw this season.

See you in 2008.

Some facts for you to soak up:

-Less events this year

-TV contract is a pay for TV time, not a ture contract

-No new teams

-An unbadged engine

-More paying drivers here than at Fast times...

-No money in the till.....

The IRL

-#1 watched and attended OW race in the US

-PAID TV contract, in HD to boot!

-Higher TV ratings

-TV drivers on TV commercials

-Series promoted on TV and print

-Honda onboard!

-The top teams in OW racing, save for NHL (which is about to change...)


I agree on one point, and that is the Atlanitcs series. Fanatstic, and has a good TV offering.

Other than that, drugs are bad. Very bad.

[sanguin]

As for "ovalcentric", my point was that the event (Indy 500) that defines the sport and culture of America open wheel racing is an oval (IMS). Unless you can prove that you and your friends (employers?) The Sacred Amigos own that word, I will continue to use it as I see fit.

Running amok has certainly not been limited to TG and his merry men. All eras of CART and Champ Car have also seen sterling examples of the art and science of "amoking up". The current era in particular is a primer on how to lose friends and negatively influence people. One disturbing trend we have seen from both sides is the dropping of events that don't make sense. Has anyone bothered to really understand why? You can't always blame the promoter. BTW, how many of Champ Car's races are actually paying a real sanction fee these days? I keep hearing that Laguna Seca, Portland, St. Jovite, Road America, Zolder, and Jerez are freebees. I guess you can't blame the promoter then!

Sanguin, I'll will see you in Long Beach. I have been to every LBGP since day one and have seen F-5000, F1, CART Indy Cars then the OWRS Champ Cars which, BTW, have been the least impressive show. I always wonder if I am seeing the last OWRS race there and I am sure I am not alone in that regard. The ALMS race there last year was outstanding and their paddock made Champ Car's look like a pathertic club race by comparison. I am not happy to see that and I doubt that things will change this year despite the usual blind zeal of the TG failthful here and on CCF. Regardless, my hope is that this race lives to see a better day but I doubt it will come at the hands of the current event and series ownership who seem to be influenced by delusions and fanatics rather than common sense.

CC does get sanction fees and the ALMS paddock is okay,but it isn't that great.

[sanguin]

Some facts for you to soak up:


-The top teams in OW racing, save for NHL (which is about to change...)


I agree on one point, and that is the Atlanitcs series. Fanatstic, and has a good TV offering.

Other than that, drugs are bad. Very bad.

You would think the IRL would be more successful and not have a sponsor suing to get out. NHL is not going to IRL.

[BobGarage]

Other than that, drugs are bad. Very bad.

someone should tell Tony George that! ;)

[Chaparral66]

What is going on here? Did any of you even read Jim Strong's letter? I think only one of you who posted after his letter appeared (tbyars) barely addressed its content, before you all got into personal sniping again. Yikes.

Please read what he is saying. He has some good ideas, a lot more than what has been posted on this forum recently (myself included) for all the debate we've been having as to how to resolve this mess we're all in, both CC and IRL fans. Strong has stepped away from being an advocate of either series and stopped drinking the split kool-aid altogether. His speaks for me and echos much of what Cmdr Keen and I have been debating on other threads.

Before you all get neck deep in further personal attacks, which seem easier that dealing the concept itself, I challange all of you to read Jim Strong's letter, and deal with the ideas he proposes.

At one point in his letter, Strong advocates for an even break up of the racetracks, in thirds, between ovals, roadcourses, and street courses. Nothing "ovalcentric" here (Strong does insist that the Indy 500 must be returned to its former level of greatness. Who could argue with that?). Is that a good idea? If not, why?

Strong also says it might be a good idea to make the cars run on alternate fuels, like diesel, as Audi does in ALMS. Good idea? Why or why not?

Strong also suggests maybe it's time for a team to choose the type of tires it wants to run, either red or normal tires for an entire race. How about that? Agree or disagree, and why?

Show me something. Show me you know as much as this guy Jim Strong, and if you don't like his ideas, what would you suggest? And keep it on the racing, if you can.

C'mon, bring it. I'm waiting.

[ChaimWitz]

What is going on here? Did any of you even read Jim Strong's letter? I think only one of you who posted after his letter appeared (tbyars) barely addressed its content, before you all got into personal sniping again. Yikes.

Please read what he is saying. He has some good ideas, a lot more than what has been posted on this forum recently (myself included) for all the debate we've been having as to how to resolve this mess we're all in, both CC and IRL fans. Strong has stepped away from being an advocate of either series and stopped drinking the split kool-aid altogether. His speaks for me and echos much of what Cmdr Keen and I have been debating on other threads.

Before you all get neck deep in further personal attacks, which seem easier that dealing the concept itself, I challange all of you to read Jim Strong's letter, and deal with the ideas he proposes.

At one point in his letter, Strong advocates for an even break up of the racetracks, in thirds, between ovals, roadcourses, and street courses. Nothing "ovalcentric" here (Strong does insist that the Indy 500 must be returned to its former level of greatness. Who could argue with that?). Is that a good idea? If not, why?

Strong also says it might be a good idea to make the cars run on alternate fuels, like diesel, as Audi does in ALMS. Good idea? Why or why not?

Strong also suggests maybe it's time for a team to choose the type of tires it wants to run, either red or normal tires for an entire race. How about that? Agree or disagree, and why?

Show me something. Show me you know as much as this guy Jim Strong, and if you don't like his ideas, what would you suggest? And keep it on the racing, if you can.

C'mon, bring it. I'm waiting.

Thanks Chaparral66 for posting the above. It was the reason I posted Mr. Strong's letter from Gordon Kirby's site in "what happens next" in the first place and I think it touches on the reason that Dr. Jack probably started this particular tread that now has over 750 replies and more than 30,000 views. How can all this move forward again to a better future? I like much of what was written by Mr. Strong and it wasn't about politics, it was about the content of the sport. Pushing hate and cultural division is not going to help the sport progress. My hope is that the majority of us who still care about this sport realize that and if we all push for healing rather than more pain and wasted years, dollars and careers the future will be worth fighting for. Justifying the mistakes of the past is doomed to failure (on both sides).

[Jacques]

Some facts for you to soak up:

The IRL

-#1 watched and attended OW race in the US

-PAID TV contract, in HD to boot!

-Higher TV ratings

-TV drivers on TV commercials

-Series promoted on TV and print

-Honda onboard!

-The top teams in OW racing, save for NHL (which is about to change...)


I agree on one point, and that is the Atlanitcs series. Fanatstic, and has a good TV offering.

Other than that, drugs are bad. Very bad.
1. Its rating goes down every year.
2. The people paying for it state they did not want to pay for it.
3. Double, that is true .. but at only 1.1 and headed to below 1.0 this year.
4. No effect, at all
5. During CC commercials, so "no one" sees them
6. And trying to leave asap
7. All former CART teams and more IRL teams leaving.

Rosy glasses are being worn by both sides, unfortunately.
Compared to CC the IRL may be better, but that is not saying much.

[Chaparral66]

Both series have been on different sides of the same roller coaster ride since 1996. It's been creaking for years and been patched with balsa wood...

[FlatChatRacer]

Once again ChaimWitz has tried to steer the discussion in a cerebral direction. Alas, very few are paying attention and can see the wood for the trees.

Therein lies the problem with AOWR. The way posters behave on this forum is like a microcosm of the way the leaders/owners of the IRL and CCWS behave. Mine is better than yours, blah, blah, blah.

In the meantime, NASCAR has gone racing ahead into the distance, barely a speck on the horizon, and the ALMS has just zoomed past leaving dust trails in the collective faces of the IRL and CCWS.

Jim Strong has put forward some interesting and wonderful ideas that are devoid of ego and self interest. Unfortunately, the powers that be of our favourite series, don't seem to be able to forget the past and look to the future with optimism, forgiveness and not a little humility.

However, as Open Wheel fans we all live in hope!

[Chaparral66]

Once again ChaimWitz has tried to steer the discussion in a cerebral direction. Alas, very few are paying attention and can see the wood for the trees.

Therein lies the problem with AOWR. The way posters behave on this forum is like a microcosm of the way the leaders/owners of the IRL and CCWS behave. Mine is better than yours, blah, blah, blah.

In the meantime, NASCAR has gone racing ahead into the distance, barely a speck on the horizon, and the ALMS has just zoomed past leaving dust trails in the collective faces of the IRL and CCWS.

Jim Strong has put forward some interesting and wonderful ideas that are devoid of ego and self interest. Unfortunately, the powers that be of our favourite series, don't seem to be able to forget the past and look to the future with optimism, forgiveness and not a little humility.

However, as Open Wheel fans we all live in hope!


Very true, and I have said this for years, and so has Robin Miller, that the only real winner in this conflict has been NASCAR. And as you say, ALMS is actually doing what open wheel should be, and generating new teams and sponsors; and Grand Am is also creating buzz, as some of the world's finest drivers, from Formula 1 to local short track stars, are coming to compete in the Rolex 24, which has now become the defacto IROC.

[ChaimWitz]

CC does get sanction fees and the ALMS paddock is okay,but it isn't that great.

Sanguin, I wonder just how you claim to know that Champ Car gets a sanction fee for all their races... I thought you were just a fan. Regardless, this claim does not jive with what I have been hearing from those inside a number of ChampCar's 2008 events. I am told that many are not paying a sanction fee or only a very discounted fee where the risk is in Champ Car's corner. Given the pattern of the past few years cannot be good for Champ Car's bottom line.

As for the ALMS paddock, I beg to differ. It has very cool cars, professional presentation, famous teams and a real buzz going on. There is true optimism there that I don't see in either the Champ Car paddock or the Indy Car Series paddock. There is also far less B.S. and justification of things that are unjustifiable going on—despite the presence of a viable competitor in the form of the Grand-Am.

[gofastandwynn]

You would think the IRL would be more successful and not have a sponsor suing to get out. NHL is not going to IRL.

Which sponsor would that be?

[garyshell]

This letter that Gordon printed has all the hallmarks of things said here and elsewhere for quite some time. The problem with it is that it has no teeth. We the fans have no REAL way to hold "...king George" or the Amigo's feet to the fire. Oh sure we could all just refuse to go to the races. Like THAT is going to happen.

The only players with any hope of being able to pull this off are the team owners. It is why like the author of the letter, I have been calling for an team owners revolt.

Gary

[tbyars]

NHL is not going to IRL.

Aren't you the one who said they would never drop San Jose for Laguna, because San Jose was going to be another Long Beach, and nothing ever draws flies at Laguna but the bikes?

Frankly, I don't think you know, because I don't think the decision has been made yet.

[ChaimWitz]

Two quotes from that great American "race" fan Eldrigidge Cleaver, come to mind when reading these forums:

"You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem."

"The price of hating other human beings is loving oneself less."

Have some people here forgotten this was once "one" sport?

Have they also forgotten that this has been a business competition based upon differences in business ideals and business models?

In the end, the IRL is becoming much more CART like (or is it lites?) in its make up... while the CCWS becomes less so. One series is more promoter centric and the other is more entrant centric. One series is likely far more sustainable and the other is likely not.

Business, like racing has a finish line. People do look at the results and ask themselves "who won?" Sometimes, like in racing, the winner looks like it has been trough a war and will require a complete rebuild.

I think the hard truth is that we are there now and the IRL is limping to the white flag lap while the CCWS is slowing to a crawl with smoke trailing behind it.

When the checkered flag falls soon, I have little doubt that the IRL car will be in the winner's circle. Too bad the grandstands will be less than half full and the TV time window will have been exceeded so few will notice or care. There will of course be a few thousand fanatical CC fans rioting outside the winners circle crying "foul" but the race will have been run and won and the results will stand. Business is business and is the most unforgiving competition outside of armed conflict and open wheel racing itself.

So, back to the topic of this tread: what happens next?

Do the Amigos cut a deal now with The Grandson and salvage some of their investment, their key events., Mazda Atlantics and Cosworth or do they play to their own egos (and those of the fanatical haters) and drive the series into oblivion?

My hope is for the former while they still have a hint of leverage left.

[indycool]

Well, next seems to be that Jani is "out."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64808

P.S. -- As far as Strong's letter goes that Kirby put up on his site, what elements are in that letter that haven't been suggested by somebody on one of these forums multiple times before? What's new about any of that? What hasn't been argued and/or discussed about this on any of these forums before? I see absolutely nothing new or exciting about that proposition.

[heelntoe]

Well, next seems to be that Jani is "out."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64808

And, according to Cavin, GF has been spotted at the IMS offices...will wonders never cease :)

[mike15]

Maybe GF has made an offer to purchase IMS?
Now that would be a great rumor.

[indycool]

I don't think Gerry has that kind of money to throw around. Last appraisal of IMS and its properties is reported to be $3.6 billion. That's with a "B."

[pvtjoker]

Maybe GF has made an offer to purchase IMS?
Now that would be a great rumor.

That would be quite a rumor. Or how about this one...GF wants to sell his race team to TG. Or this one...GF wants to sell his share of CC to TG. Now THAT would be a rumor.

We can go ON AND ON and speculate the reasoning behind their meeting. Until then, its ALL speculation.

[mike15]

That would be quite a rumor. Or how about this one...GF wants to sell his race team to TG. Or this one...GF wants to sell his share of CC to TG. Now THAT would be a rumor.

We can go ON AND ON and speculate the reasoning behind their meeting. Until then, its ALL speculation.

Speculation on this, the Champ Car board, is only allowed when it is good for the IRL and bad towards Champ Car.

Your version of a rumor against Champ Car was not a surprise. As a matter of fact you would have disappointed many on this the Champ Car Forum had you not responded in the manner that you did.

[gofastandwynn]

And, according to Cavin, GF has been spotted at the IMS offices...will wonders never cease :)

Maybe he was there to visit his cousin. You did know that Forsythe's cousin is Laura George, Tony's wife right?

[Chris R]

Maybe he was there to visit his cousin. You did know that Forsythe's cousin is Laura George, Tony's wife right?

Really?? if so that is too funny - incestuous little world isn't it....???

[Chris R]

Speaking of what is next - anybody know why autoracing1.com pulled the merger rumor this afternoon???

[Chaparral66]

Speaking of what is next - anybody know why autoracing1.com pulled the merger rumor this afternoon???

What merger rumor?

[indycool]

The 33,296th merger rumor.

[ChaimWitz]

The 33,296th merger rumor.

No, actually it was the 33,299th merger rumor and there have been three more since then.

[Chris R]

What merger rumor?

It was just a reference to and comment on Curt Cavin's piece today.... nothing of substance - more interested that it was pulled than what it said....

[Sandfly]

Two quotes from that great American "race" fan Eldrigidge Cleaver, come to mind when reading these forums:

"You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem."

"The price of hating other human beings is loving oneself less."

Have some people here forgotten this was once "one" sport?

Have they also forgotten that this has been a business competition based upon differences in business ideals and business models?

In the end, the IRL is becoming much more CART like (or is it lites?) in its make up... while the CCWS becomes less so. One series is more promoter centric and the other is more entrant centric. One series is likely far more sustainable and the other is likely not.

Business, like racing has a finish line. People do look at the results and ask themselves "who won?" Sometimes, like in racing, the winner looks like it has been trough a war and will require a complete rebuild.

I think the hard truth is that we are there now and the IRL is limping to the white flag lap while the CCWS is slowing to a crawl with smoke trailing behind it.

When the checkered flag falls soon, I have little doubt that the IRL car will be in the winner's circle. Too bad the grandstands will be less than half full and the TV time window will have been exceeded so few will notice or care. There will of course be a few thousand fanatical CC fans rioting outside the winners circle crying "foul" but the race will have been run and won and the results will stand. Business is business and is the most unforgiving competition outside of armed conflict and open wheel racing itself.

So, back to the topic of this tread: what happens next?

Do the Amigos cut a deal now with The Grandson and salvage some of their investment, their key events., Mazda Atlantics and Cosworth or do they play to their own egos (and those of the fanatical haters) and drive the series into oblivion?

My hope is for the former while they still have a hint of leverage left.

The amigos are not selling.

The IRL is not a qualified buyer, even if they were.

[indycool]

That's just silly. Link for "the amigos are not selling." And why would the IRL not be a "qualified buyer?"

And sorry, Chaimwitz.........my math is failing me in my old age! :)

[cartpix]

Speaking of what is next - anybody know why autoracing1.com pulled the merger rumor this afternoon???

Me thinks he pulled it too soon.

As seen in another thread

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/42686/

Jeff

[heelntoe]

The amigos are not selling.

The IRL is not a qualified buyer, even if they were.

"This was the wrong week to stop sniffing glue!". Dude, this post reflects that you are standing in the "sand" waiting for an oasis to appear. It ain't happening! The Amigos not only have to sell, but if they don't do it soon, there will be no there there. IMO, of course!

[indycool]

Well, if true......a respectable chance was there a month ago.

[FlatChatRacer]

Cmon IndyCool,

There's always another chance. I really hope this rumour is true.

Please, please, I can dream that very soon the Indy 500 will have 33 super competitive entries and the Road America Classic will see Castro Neves and Andretti duelling with Graham Rahal.

Surely, you would love to see that as well Indy?

[indycool]

I have always been pro-one series. It sounds like there was another chance. But if Forsythe was looking for $100 million, he has to be out of his mind. In the similar case with Trans Am, Panoz reportedly gave Gentilozzi $2 million to take it off his hands. This sounds like a much better deal than that. And there's no indication that any of this was brought up to the CC car owners, although Walker and Haas kind of indicate they've been keeping track of things with the IRL. Oughta create real trust in the CC paddock in combination with the loss of Cotman. We're talking about Forsythe here....the guy who hired Heitzler after CART red-flagged him......guess he just sniffs different glue.

[Chaparral66]

I just read Miller's report. Sounds interesting. I've always been pro-one series too, I just hope it doesn't have to take too much of a pound of flesh to get there...

[ChaimWitz]

The "pound of flesh" that is probably central to the issue is the same one that has always been there: control. Don't hold your breath waiting for Tony George to hand any portion of control or enter into an equity holding business partnership to the Amigos. The reality is he doesn't need to and from recent Amigo history it would probably be an unwise choice for him. The sport needs clarity and singular leadership not more paralysis like we've seen from the four headed monster that ChampCar has become. I am not saying that TG is the man, but I am saying that one leader is better than five or four or three or two.

So what do you think will happen next? What would be a good outcome given the reality of the situation?

[Hiryu]

At the end of the day a lousy economy did in Champ Car, as I suspect that the basic plan was to offer good racing and an exciting car and when it was all said and done that wasn't enough. The sponsors didn't show up and with no sponsors there is no TV deal. Also, this has been another demonstration of the wisdom of not letting SCCA types near a professional series, as Gentilozzis buddies from that organization seem to have been a real disaster. Also, If Mr. George is smart he takes the DP1 chassis and asks Honda to go back to making turbos. Also, when the final deal is done (assuming that OWRS simply doesn't liquidate itself in spite of TG), Mr. George should keep as far away from the final negotiating session as possible and send Penske in his place. TG is not getting out of this mess without taking his share of crispy crow in hot sauce.

[Chaparral66]

At the end of the day a lousy economy did in Champ Car, as I suspect that the basic plan was to offer good racing and an exciting car and when it was all said and done that wasn't enough. The sponsors didn't show up and with no sponsors there is no TV deal. Also, this has been another demonstration of the wisdom of not letting SCCA types near a professional series, as Gentilozzis buddies from that organization seem to have been a real disaster. Also, If Mr. George is smart he takes the DP1 chassis and asks Honda to go back to making turbos. Also, when the final deal is done (assuming that OWRS simply doesn't liquidate itself in spite of TG), Mr. George should keep as far away from the final negotiating session as possible and send Penske in his place. TG is not getting out of this mess without taking his share of crispy crow in hot sauce.

Hate to disagree with you Hiyru, but bad judgement by The Amigos did in Champ Car. Just about every opportunity that came their way to make a decision to go forward, they ultimately made the decision which sent the series backward. Good example? When Minardi came to the series and brought a 2 person F1 car, the Champ Car braintrust decided to make that part of the pace car unit. That ultimately lost them Ford badging their Cosworth engines (as they had for years), who had been very loyal to Champ Car right from the split on, even as Toyota and Honda decided their fortune was with the IRL; even that's faded with Toyota gone and in NASCAR and F1, and Honda thinking seriously about leaving unless something happens to resolve the split. Want another? The TV package - and I admit this is debatable - which changed a lot during the split, seemed to have found a home on SPEED, with some events on CBS and NBC; now they have landed on the ESPN networks, which has become a joke. I believe SPEED, even with less of an audience than the ABC/ESPN combine, was a better home for CCWS. They got good time slots with mostly live events, which sometimes had a good lead in from F1 cablecasts, and there was much more support programming, including regular exposure on Wind Tunnel with Dave Despain and guests like Robin Miller. Never did the series have to deal with 1 hour highlight shows like they will have to deal with this year on some ESPN timeslots. It's also my opinion that CCWS gave up too quickly on Fontana; while attendence was down from the Penske glory years, they were still indesputedly outdrawing the IRL races when the two series both raced there for a couple of years. They also played up tempo musical chairs with their drivers way too much, not giving fans a chance to get to know them; and waiting until almost the start of the next season to come out with a schedule, with several races they said were confirmed on tracks that had not yet completed construction overseas. I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture. Those of us who were very critical of TG (and with good reason) for his ineptness in running his league (such as saying he wanted to run on just ovals, and to see that vow go south), now find the the 10% owner Paul Gentillozzi Amigos are just as bad, if not worse.

The bad economy was merely icing on an already wilted cake. A few of their good decisions were hiring Tony Cotman (now gone), and racing at Mont Tremblant in Canada, a home run and a solid single in an otherwise plethora of caught looking strikeouts.

[ChaimWitz]

After reading the wide range of posts on these forums over the past week I am struck by the fact that most of us now realize that we all have more in common than we have differences between us.

I also have to chuckle when I read jimispeed's signature line: "Champ Car, continuing since 1909".

Steve Johnson has also uttered a variation of this thought on occasion. Something to the effect of: "ChampCar is nearly 100 years old".

To me this deceptive propaganda underscores the delusional thinking behind the OWRS owners '"plans". You can't claim a heritage with one hand while rejecting it with another. In other words, you can’t embrace the American National Championship and reject oval racing at the same time. It simply doesn’t ring true.

Here is what does ring true:

The American National Championship that Jimispeed and Steve Johnson claim as ChampCar’s heritage is recognized to have begun in 1909. Although the majority of the races in the early years were run over the open roads (since few permanent circuits existed) the series soon became an oval centric sport and stayed that way until the CART era of the early 1980s when the sport was dominated by teams that were refugees from the SCCA Can-Am and the SCCA Formula 5000 Series before it. These road racing series had one thing in common: They weren’t financially viable or sustainable for the sanctioning bodies, the promoters or the teams.

Back to 1909: There was one permanent circuit on the schedule of that first American National Championship season. It was a 2.5 mile oval near Indianapolis Indiana. Two races were held there in that first season and with the Inaugural Indianapolis 500 in 1911, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway became the global icon of American racing culture ever since.

Oh, did I mention that the Vanderbilt cup is a copy commissioned in 1996 for the Inaugural US 500. BTW, what ever happened to that race?

So, back to my point: ChampCar has not been “continuing since 1909”. It has been continuing since Judge Otte’s gavel fell in an Indianapolis bankruptcy court on January 28, 2004. There is a big difference between 99 years and four years.

In my view, the bloodline of the American National Championship runs through the AAA, USAC, CART and now, arguably, the IndyCar series for a number of reasons:

* The Indy Car series has the Indianapolis 500. The history of this great race is inexorably intertwined with the American National Championship.

* Fifteen of the sixteen event Indy Car Series are held in the United States. Currently only one race (Motegi) is held out of the country.

* The ChampCar World Series only holds six of its 14 races in the U.S.A.

* The Indy Car Series holds races on 11 ovals and the Champ Car World Series has chosen to abandon them completely.

* Oval racing is and was the defining discipline of the American National Championship. If they were still alive what would, Ted Horn or Jimmy Bryan think about this situation today? Would the recognize Champ Car as he rightful heir to the sport they loved? I think not...

With a combined series as outlined by the Robin Miller story we could again have a sport with the best of both best worlds. A mix of Street Circuits, Natural Terrain Road Courses, Super Speedways, Speedways and Short Ovals. Product confusion would be ended (some could argue that it already has been by Champ Car’s disappearing act in the USA) and the sport could focus on progress rather than pain.

Think about it: The dual 100th anniversaries of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the American National Championship in 2009 provide the perfect opportunity to reposition and relaunch our great sport as it enters its second century. It will be much more meaningful and powerful if we celebrate these milestones together.

“Indy Car Racing, continuing since 1909” rings true to me.

[indycool]

Well said, Chaimwitz.....that is true, time-honored history.

[Roninho]

The bad economy was merely icing on an already wilted cake. A few of their good decisions were hiring Tony Cotman (now gone), and racing at Mont Tremblant in Canada, a home run and a solid single in an otherwise plethora of caught looking strikeouts.
Imho their good decisions were:
- introducing a new chassis to reduce costs: there wasn't & isn't enough money to run $5 million budgets a year.
- reducing the schedule: it mad no sense to run 18-19 races with many being financial losers.
- the new atlantics formula: they needed a feeder serie that has full fields and offer a good training ground.
- Owning rights to races in the usa, mexico and canada.

Imho they blew it by:
- going for the dp01: The car is still way to expensive & the lousy grid is killing them. TG is using it for the kill-shot.
- The timing of their tv-schedules: For 4 years they have spend a big amount of money on tv, but each year it was announced so late that it was impossible for teams to even find sponsors.
- The stupidity surrounding anything that could be marketable: They had marketable stars & sponsors from Mexico and they lost it.
- The numerous cancelled & dropped events & the stupidity of mega-gaps on their schedule: Ansan, San Jose, Denver, Mexico, Las Vegas, Phoenix, etc. etc.
- countless stupid actions and lousy pr to cover up: PG being the spokeperson, going international when your sponsors are targeting north america, losing Ford for a couple of $ from Stoddart for a pace-car program, last years spring training/news weekend, etc. etc.

I'm certain that if they had gone for a gp2-like car, had a good pr-department, ran a logical schedule, announced their tv-schedule a year upfront and had taken care of the mexican market & focused on North-america that at this point in time champcar would have 20+ sponsored cars confirmed for 2008, had a great positive buzz around them, and manufacturers would be starting to get interested in this serie.

[FlatChatRacer]

Back to the thread title "What Happens Next?"

Well, it looks like the IRL are about to announce some significant news that will increase it's cachet and prominence. At the same time or soon after, the CCWS will be severely weakened and probably disintegrate. There is a real possibility that CCWS will not run all the planned and scheduled 2008 races.

[994ever]

Well said, Chaimwitz.....that is true, time-honored history.

Time honoured yes...honoured by the participants or the custodians? Hell no.

There's the problem.

[nigelred5]

After reading the wide range of posts on these forums over the past week I am struck by the fact that most of us now realize that we all have more in common than we have differences between us.

I also have to chuckle when I read jimispeed's signature line: "Champ Car, continuing since 1909".

Steve Johnson has also uttered a variation of this thought on occasion. Something to the effect of: "ChampCar is nearly 100 years old".

To me this deceptive propaganda underscores the delusional thinking behind the OWRS owners '"plans". You can't claim a heritage with one hand while rejecting it with another. In other words, you can’t embrace the American National Championship and reject oval racing at the same time. It simply doesn’t ring true.

Here is what does ring true:

The American National Championship that Jimispeed and Steve Johnson claim as ChampCar’s heritage is recognized to have begun in 1909. Although the majority of the races in the early years were run over the open roads (since few permanent circuits existed) the series soon became an oval centric sport and stayed that way until the CART era of the early 1980s when the sport was dominated by teams that were refugees from the SCCA Can-Am and the SCCA Formula 5000 Series before it. These road racing series had one thing in common: They weren’t financially viable or sustainable for the sanctioning bodies, the promoters or the teams.

Back to 1909: There was one permanent circuit on the schedule of that first American National Championship season. It was a 2.5 mile oval near Indianapolis Indiana. Two races were held there in that first season and with the Inaugural Indianapolis 500 in 1911, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway became the global icon of American racing culture ever since.

Oh, did I mention that the Vanderbilt cup is a copy commissioned in 1996 for the Inaugural US 500. BTW, what ever happened to that race?

So, back to my point: ChampCar has not been “continuing since 1909”. It has been continuing since Judge Otte’s gavel fell in an Indianapolis bankruptcy court on January 28, 2004. There is a big difference between 99 years and four years.

In my view, the bloodline of the American National Championship runs through the AAA, USAC, CART and now, arguably, the IndyCar series for a number of reasons:

* The Indy Car series has the Indianapolis 500. The history of this great race is inexorably intertwined with the American National Championship.

* Fifteen of the sixteen event Indy Car Series are held in the United States. Currently only one race (Motegi) is held out of the country.

* The ChampCar World Series only holds six of its 14 races in the U.S.A.

* The Indy Car Series holds races on 11 ovals and the Champ Car World Series has chosen to abandon them completely.

* Oval racing is and was the defining discipline of the American National Championship. If they were still alive what would, Ted Horn or Jimmy Bryan think about this situation today? Would the recognize Champ Car as he rightful heir to the sport they loved? I think not...

With a combined series as outlined by the Robin Miller story we could again have a sport with the best of both best worlds. A mix of Street Circuits, Natural Terrain Road Courses, Super Speedways, Speedways and Short Ovals. Product confusion would be ended (some could argue that it already has been by Champ Car’s disappearing act in the USA) and the sport could focus on progress rather than pain.

Think about it: The dual 100th anniversaries of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the American National Championship in 2009 provide the perfect opportunity to reposition and relaunch our great sport as it enters its second century. It will be much more meaningful and powerful if we celebrate these milestones together.

“Indy Car Racing, continuing since 1909” rings true to me.

I've been arguing those exact points since 96 when they commissioned the replica cup. They have always been claiming a false history IMHO.

[Chaparral66]

Imho their good decisions were:
- introducing a new chassis to reduce costs: there wasn't & isn't enough money to run $5 million budgets a year.
- reducing the schedule: it mad no sense to run 18-19 races with many being financial losers.
- the new atlantics formula: they needed a feeder serie that has full fields and offer a good training ground.
- Owning rights to races in the usa, mexico and canada.

Imho they blew it by:
- going for the dp01: The car is still way to expensive & the lousy grid is killing them. TG is using it for the kill-shot.
- The timing of their tv-schedules: For 4 years they have spend a big amount of money on tv, but each year it was announced so late that it was impossible for teams to even find sponsors.
- The stupidity surrounding anything that could be marketable: They had marketable stars & sponsors from Mexico and they lost it.
- The numerous cancelled & dropped events & the stupidity of mega-gaps on their schedule: Ansan, San Jose, Denver, Mexico, Las Vegas, Phoenix, etc. etc.
- countless stupid actions and lousy pr to cover up: PG being the spokeperson, going international when your sponsors are targeting north america, losing Ford for a couple of $ from Stoddart for a pace-car program, last years spring training/news weekend, etc. etc.

I'm certain that if they had gone for a gp2-like car, had a good pr-department, ran a logical schedule, announced their tv-schedule a year upfront and had taken care of the mexican market & focused on North-america that at this point in time champcar would have 20+ sponsored cars confirmed for 2008, had a great positive buzz around them, and manufacturers would be starting to get interested in this serie.

This is a very well reasoned assessment, Roninho. I agree. Losing Ford was the silliest move of all in my view, as Ford gave the series solid creditability in the corporate world, and all because of a novel F1 2 seater. Yikes.

[ChaimWitz]

The hits just keep on coming... Stay tuned. There is more bad news in the pipeline. Even the most ardent CCWS fanatic must now admit that things look bleak for the series at this juncture.

I have posted here asking if anyone has a suggestion of a plan going forward other than hoping that Honda leave the IRL or the Amigos spending another $50-$100 million to outlast TG. So, someone please explain to me where are the legions of committed ChampCar fans the sponsors who want to reach them are in the series home market -- the USA?

What happens next if there are not enough people who care any longer about the series formerly know as CART?

[dime3]

After reading the wide range of posts on these forums over the past week I am struck by the fact that most of us now realize that we all have more in common than we have differences between us.

I also have to chuckle when I read jimispeed's signature line: "Champ Car, continuing since 1909".

Steve Johnson has also uttered a variation of this thought on occasion. Something to the effect of: "ChampCar is nearly 100 years old".

To me this deceptive propaganda underscores the delusional thinking behind the OWRS owners '"plans". You can't claim a heritage with one hand while rejecting it with another. In other words, you can’t embrace the American National Championship and reject oval racing at the same time. It simply doesn’t ring true.

Here is what does ring true:

The American National Championship that Jimispeed and Steve Johnson claim as ChampCar’s heritage is recognized to have begun in 1909. Although the majority of the races in the early years were run over the open roads (since few permanent circuits existed) the series soon became an oval centric sport and stayed that way until the CART era of the early 1980s when the sport was dominated by teams that were refugees from the SCCA Can-Am and the SCCA Formula 5000 Series before it. These road racing series had one thing in common: They weren’t financially viable or sustainable for the sanctioning bodies, the promoters or the teams.

Back to 1909: There was one permanent circuit on the schedule of that first American National Championship season. It was a 2.5 mile oval near Indianapolis Indiana. Two races were held there in that first season and with the Inaugural Indianapolis 500 in 1911, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway became the global icon of American racing culture ever since.

Oh, did I mention that the Vanderbilt cup is a copy commissioned in 1996 for the Inaugural US 500. BTW, what ever happened to that race?

So, back to my point: ChampCar has not been “continuing since 1909”. It has been continuing since Judge Otte’s gavel fell in an Indianapolis bankruptcy court on January 28, 2004. There is a big difference between 99 years and four years.

In my view, the bloodline of the American National Championship runs through the AAA, USAC, CART and now, arguably, the IndyCar series for a number of reasons:

* The Indy Car series has the Indianapolis 500. The history of this great race is inexorably intertwined with the American National Championship.

* Fifteen of the sixteen event Indy Car Series are held in the United States. Currently only one race (Motegi) is held out of the country.

* The ChampCar World Series only holds six of its 14 races in the U.S.A.

* The Indy Car Series holds races on 11 ovals and the Champ Car World Series has chosen to abandon them completely.

* Oval racing is and was the defining discipline of the American National Championship. If they were still alive what would, Ted Horn or Jimmy Bryan think about this situation today? Would the recognize Champ Car as he rightful heir to the sport they loved? I think not...

With a combined series as outlined by the Robin Miller story we could again have a sport with the best of both best worlds. A mix of Street Circuits, Natural Terrain Road Courses, Super Speedways, Speedways and Short Ovals. Product confusion would be ended (some could argue that it already has been by Champ Car’s disappearing act in the USA) and the sport could focus on progress rather than pain.

Think about it: The dual 100th anniversaries of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the American National Championship in 2009 provide the perfect opportunity to reposition and relaunch our great sport as it enters its second century. It will be much more meaningful and powerful if we celebrate these milestones together.

“Indy Car Racing, continuing since 1909” rings true to me.
Great post and well said!

Any sport needs to have a mix of ventues to survive.

[heelntoe]

The hits just keep on coming... Stay tuned. There is more bad news in the pipeline. Even the most ardent CCWS fanatic must now admit that things look bleak for the series at this juncture.

I have posted here asking if anyone has a suggestion of a plan going forward other than hoping that Honda leave the IRL or the Amigos spending another $50-$100 million to outlast TG. So, someone please explain to me where are the legions of committed ChampCar fans the sponsors who want to reach them are in the series home market -- the USA?

What happens next if there are not enough people who care any longer about the series formerly know as CART?

We must be hearing the same thing :)

[garyshell]

The hits just keep on coming... Stay tuned. There is more bad news in the pipeline.


We must be hearing the same thing :)

Do you guys actually have SOMETHING to report? Or is it just more chest pounding from the "insiders" to tell us peons that we should just shut up and listen. If you HAVE something, then fine, spill it. Otherwise what's the point of this "nahnny, nahnny, boo boo, we know something you guys don't know" *****?

Gary

[Jacques]

Do you guys actually have SOMETHING to report? Or is it just more chest pounding from the "insiders" to tell us peons that we should just shut up and listen. If you HAVE something, then fine, spill it. Otherwise what's the point of this "nahnny, nahnny, boo boo, we know something you guys don't know" *****?

Gary
WELL SAID !!!
Finally, someone with some reason.
It is so annoying reading all these posts from people who have been wrong time and time again. People who believe that their way is the only way. People who think that everyone else must like the type of racing they like.
People who see all the mess the IRL is in and, then, look the other way.

If they are so annoyed with CC, and want it to fold, why do they continue posting here every day ? If they like the IRL so much better, then, move over.

[ChaimWitz]

WELL SAID !!!
Finally, someone with some reason.
It is so annoying reading all these posts from people who have been wrong time and time again. People who believe that their way is the only way. People who think that everyone else must like the type of racing they like.
People who see all the mess the IRL is in and, then, look the other way.

If they are so annoyed with CC, and want it to fold, why do they continue posting here every day ? If they like the IRL so much better, then, move over.

Calm down, I don't think "my way is the only way". FYI, I also don't know heelntoe personally so I don't have a clue of what he knows or doesn't know but I do hear from folks I trust in the business that there is more bad news coming soon for Champ Car. It is not appropriate for me to share what I have heard but it will be public soon enough. Does it make me happy? No. I frustrates me because all of this is such a waste of talent, time and opportunity.

I am also not an IRL lover. They have serious problems of their own making that need to be addressed now if they are to do any more than just survive longer than ChampCar. Some inside their company seem to understand this but some still don't. NASCAR Envy is a very hard disease to beat...

That said, I have little hope that Champ Car makes sense as a business. I keep posting here asking for someone to explain to us how it does make sense but not surprisingly, no one has come forward to put forward anything other than a rancid mix of hate and delusional justification of the silliness that passes for the Amigo's mythical plan. I was a CART fan of the first order but I am not a fan of the Amigos and this lie-laced joy ride to oblivion that they have taken us on.

So, go ahead, shoot me if I don't sing "Champ Car Uber Alles" with the Dead End Kids. One thing you can convict me of is that I think The Spilt should end now.

There are very few live bullets left in the Amigo's guns and a bunch of shiny happy press releases from David Higdon won't change the fact that they have little choice but to deflate their enormous egos and come back to TG and work it out. That will be the best thing for everyone involved. Most people with a hint of common sense can now see this and they are are sick and tired of the deceptive spinfest that has defined the glorious OWRS era.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming:

"Who Cares What Happens Next?" brought to you by Medi-Zone.

[garyshell]

Do you guys actually have SOMETHING to report? Or is it just more chest pounding from the "insiders" to tell us peons that we should just shut up and listen. If you HAVE something, then fine, spill it. Otherwise what's the point of this "nahnny, nahnny, boo boo, we know something you guys don't know" *****?

Gary


WELL SAID !!!
Finally, someone with some reason.
It is so annoying reading all these posts from people who have been wrong time and time again. People who believe that their way is the only way. People who think that everyone else must like the type of racing they like.
People who see all the mess the IRL is in and, then, look the other way.

If they are so annoyed with CC, and want it to fold, why do they continue posting here every day ? If they like the IRL so much better, then, move over.


Hold on there a second. Don't paint MY comment with that brush. I have no delusions that these folks WANT our beloved CC to fold. I don't think that for one second. Nor did I say a single thing about them being right or wrong.
My focus was quite narrow. It was on the aspect of coming here to say they had some info they would not or could not share. All I said was if you have such info, spill it or do not come here and tell us that you can't tell us. Period.

If you want to raise these other issues, fine. But don't rope ME into your fight.

Gary

[FlatChatRacer]

garyshell,

Kudos and respect to you for issuing the clarification to Jacques. I understood exactly what you meant when addressing Chaimwitz and Heelntoe.

I would also like to know what the bad news is. That it will soon be public is no consolation: tell me now!

However, I have too much respect for my fellow posters to try and coerce a response from them. It's not fair and your post was a little aggressive. Chaimwitz and Heelntoe don't come onto the forum to grandstand and showoff. If you read there posts, you can detect a hint of exasperation with the current situation that Champ Car is in.

Anyway, don't be too hard on them.

[ChaimWitz]

garyshell,

Kudos and respect to you for issuing the clarification to Jacques. I understood exactly what you meant when addressing Chaimwitz and Heelntoe.

I would also like to know what the bad news is. That it will soon be public is no consolation: tell me now!

However, I have too much respect for my fellow posters to try and coerce a response from them. It's not fair and your post was a little aggressive. Chaimwitz and Heelntoe don't come onto the forum to grandstand and showoff. If you read there posts, you can detect a hint of exasperation with the current situation that Champ Car is in.

Anyway, don't be too hard on them.

Thanks FlatChatRacer, The truth is I am beyond exasperated. I have lost count of how many times my professional circumstance has been damaged by the poor overall management of American Open Wheel racing. This situation cannot continue and the Amigos haven proven to me that they are hopelessly ill-equipped to deal with this sport as a business. To me and many others, this isn't about Champ Car versus IRL any longer. It is about finding a way forward as one culture and one sport as soon as we can.

[Jacques]

Calm down, I don't think "my way is the only way". FYI, I also don't know heelntoe personally so I don't have a clue of what he knows or doesn't know but I do hear from folks I trust in the business that there is more bad news coming soon for Champ Car. It is not appropriate for me to share what I have heard but it will be public soon enough. Does it make me happy? No. I frustrates me because all of this is such a waste of talent, time and opportunity.

I am also not an IRL lover. They have serious problems of their own making that need to be addressed now if they are to do any more than just survive longer than ChampCar. Some inside their company seem to understand this but some still don't. NASCAR Envy is a very hard disease to beat...

That said, I have little hope that Champ Car makes sense as a business. I keep posting here asking for someone to explain to us how it does make sense but not surprisingly, no one has come forward to put forward anything other than a rancid mix of hate and delusional justification of the silliness that passes for the Amigo's mythical plan. I was a CART fan of the first order but I am not a fan of the Amigos and this lie-laced joy ride to oblivion that they have taken us on.

So, go ahead, shoot me if I don't sing "Champ Car Uber Alles" with the Dead End Kids. One thing you can convict me of is that I think The Spilt should end now.

There are very few live bullets left in the Amigo's guns and a bunch of shiny happy press releases from David Higdon won't change the fact that they have little choice but to deflate their enormous egos and come back to TG and work it out. That will be the best thing for everyone involved. Most people with a hint of common sense can now see this and they are are sick and tired of the deceptive spinfest that has defined the glorious OWRS era.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming:

"Who Cares What Happens Next?" brought to you by Medi-Zone.

Just as you don't see any explanation being given as to why CC should go on, I see no plan being put out there in order to fix OW. The usual resposne is either to ask for new management or to join the IRL.
If OW dies, then OW dies. I can live with that. But to think that an unified series is the key is ludricous. How many times has TG changed his vision ? Did it help ? Going back to CART-era 94 ? Been there, done that. It failed.

Look, all these posts are either ridicule of CC's management (not hard to do) or calls for unity. There are times when I wish CC would die so that, in 4 years, we could see what new tune all the "Unity" folks are singing.

CC has been badly mismanaged. So has the IRL. If that is the case, I fail to see how bringing these 2 sides is going to help. The other option is for a third party to invest his own money and try something new. Good luck.

I just wish that the tone of some of these posters would reflect a more grounded view of where OW is instead of where they wish it were.

[indycool]

This is the silly season and the closer we get to the start of the real-live season, the faster things are going to move. What any of us hear today that seems certain may be entirely 180 degrees by tomorrow. Sometimes, it'll be hard to tell if we're ahead or behind.

The announcement of Wilson today brings the total to six driver/car combinations announced -- Tracy, Servia, Bernoldi, Figge, Wilson, Rahal.

Testing is coming up. Do they fail? Do they win? Does someone walk into the middle of the test with a briefcase full of money and change anything? From past practice, how many races is Bernoldi's deal with Rocketsports?

You can be right today and wrong tomorrow.....or vice versa.....in these times.

EDIT: Jacques, a "grounded view?" You mention TG's vision changing. In four years, CC has gone from Pacific Rim thinkin' to street race thinkin' to Europe thinkin'. I don't think TG has the market cornered on that.

[FlatChatRacer]

Jacques,

How has the IRL been badly mismanaged? Mistakes yes, changes in direction yes, but what have they badly mismanaged?

I would just like to know what it is. In fact, one could argue that they have been very well managed, considering they have lasted for over 13 years. The first 7 years of it's existence was competing against an arguably more powerful series in CART. Then CART died. CART was mismanaged.

Looking at things from a purely empirical point of view, the IRL has managed very well thus far. The IRL business model is superior to the Champ Car model. Anyone taking a look from the outside, would have to see that. Champ Car is simply in a far worse state than the IRL.

I hope CCWS survives it's most challenging period since early 2004. If only for the sake of hard working folks job security. Whilst I am convinced that a unified series is the way forward, any coming together of the IRL and CCWS has to be done with CCWS having some serious bargaining chips. Otherwise, we are looking at capitulation, rather than merger.

Now, does CCWS have some serious bargaining chips. In my opinion yes. Cosworth/PI, the DP01 with oval upgrade, ownership of Long Beach, Toronto and Mexico City.

If, what Indycool says is true and $100M was requested for everything over 10yrs then the CCWS is short sighted and not seeing the wood for the trees.
This is not about getting money back in the short term.

Once you have a combined schedule and are paid a sanction fee, your ability to negotiate and apply pressure from within increases. By bringing the most valuable CCWS assets into the IRL fold, the "Amigos" gain a share of the power in the IRL, even though it is not that obvious.

1. Negotiate a contract that has Cosworth supplying free or nearly free engines to certain teams on an equivalency formula with Honda. That means
teams become dependent on Cosworth.
2. By including 3 owned races that now get a sanctioning fee, you promote the hell out of them and build their worth within the IRL. Again build your power base slowly but surely.
3. By supplying a free DP01 with oval upgrade you make yourself very important to the infrastructure.

4. Do NOT demand any money for anything else. Don't worry, there will be
opportunities to make money in the future without making direct demands of Tony George.

This is what puzzles me about the "Amigos". They don't seem to be able to look at the long term and see the benefits of joining forces with the IRL.

[nanders]

CART was mismanaged.

I'm pretty sure CART was assassinated and plundered leaving Jerry Forsythe holding the bag.


Once you have a combined schedule and are paid a sanction fee, your ability to negotiate and apply pressure from within increases. By bringing the most valuable CCWS assets into the IRL fold, the "Amigos" gain a share of the power in the IRL, even though it is not that obvious.

1. Negotiate a contract that has Cosworth supplying free or nearly free engines to certain teams on an equivalency formula with Honda. That means
teams become dependent on Cosworth.
2. By including 3 owned races that now get a sanctioning fee, you promote the hell out of them and build their worth within the IRL. Again build your power base slowly but surely.
3. By supplying a free DP01 with oval upgrade you make yourself very important to the infrastructure.

Huh?! I thought I cleared this up. The series does not pay the races a sanctioning fee, the races pay the series a sanctioning fee to show up.

[nanders]

This is what puzzles me about the "Amigos". They don't seem to be able to look at the long term and see the benefits of joining forces with the IRL.

It's because Gerry has lost so much money. He's got to be thinking something like "If I can't get back the money I paid into it ... I'm going to keep it." that's the only thing I can think of. PG and DP probably don't care about going to Indy. After all the strip clubs are better in Houston then Indy.

[indycool]

nanders, races like Portland and the track rentals are NOT paying sanction fees as would be the norm. CC owns the races. If it pays itself, it's out of one pocket and into the other.

As for Forsythe, he needs to make a decision about when he throws good money after bad.

And CART was not "assassinated and plundered" and Forsythe was NOT left holding the bag. CART, as a public-owned company, went bankrupt. Forsythe was its largest stockholder and probably lost the most money. Indeed, as bankruptcies go, a LOT of people lost money.

[nanders]

nanders, races like Portland and the track rentals are NOT paying sanction fees as would be the norm. CC owns the races. If it pays itself, it's out of one pocket and into the other.

Let me restate it then. Promoters pay the sanctioning fee. If the aforementioned races appear on the ICS schedule they will most likely be paying a sanctioning fee to the ICS.


As for Forsythe, he needs to make a decision about when he throws good money after bad.

And CART was not "assassinated and plundered" and Forsythe was NOT left holding the bag. CART, as a public-owned company, went bankrupt. Forsythe was its largest stockholder and probably lost the most money. Indeed, as bankruptcies go, a LOT of people lost money.

Didn't they bleed the money out of CART and wasn't that what Vannini was so upset about? Who got the money? They burnt up more money in the last 6 months then the CCWS now wants to buy the whole thing, which me thinks represents the approximate amount they have put in.

I'm sticking with "assassinated and plundered."

[garyshell]

However, I have too much respect for my fellow posters to try and coerce a response from them. It's not fair and your post was a little aggressive. Chaimwitz and Heelntoe don't come onto the forum to grandstand and showoff. If you read there posts, you can detect a hint of exasperation with the current situation that Champ Car is in.

Anyway, don't be too hard on them.


Yes it probably was a bit aggressive. HeelInToe and I had an off line conversation and it's all good. <grin> (And I extend the same olive branch to Chaimwitz.)

I wasn't trying to coerce a response. My point was and still is, if you can't or won't talk about it, don't mention it at all. We are all exasperated. But hinting that you know something but won't tell, only increases that exasperation.

Gary

[indycool]

Well, nanders, in that case, you're right.....Pook spent $90 million to blow it up and The Amigos got it for $3.2 million off the courthouse steps.

Yes, that was what Vannini was upset about.....it appeared, and was hotly discussed on the fora at the time, that there was some manipulative "home cookin'" to get the CART assets into The Amigos' hands.

They might want that kind of money, but what is the VALUE? What VALUE does it have now compared to when they spent $3.2 million for it four years ago? Obviously, there will be differences of opinion on those questions.

[sanguin]

nanders, races like Portland and the track rentals are NOT paying sanction fees as would be the norm. CC owns the races. If it pays itself, it's out of one pocket and into the other.



How do you know that?

[sanguin]

WELL SAID !!!
Finally, someone with some reason.
It is so annoying reading all these posts from people who have been wrong time and time again. People who believe that their way is the only way. People who think that everyone else must like the type of racing they like.
People who see all the mess the IRL is in and, then, look the other way.

If they are so annoyed with CC, and want it to fold, why do they continue posting here every day ? If they like the IRL so much better, then, move over.

Because this is the CC bashing forum? welcome.

I've heard there is some good news coming down the pike,but I'll wait until it happens. ;)

[Sandfly]

THEY - cannot stand that CC has and is building a fan base, and has a series that people watch and are interested in. Just look at the forum list when you log on - there are alway at least ten times as many users here. Why is that?? It is not just the 14 IRL regulars that are here bashing CC -- it is CC fans.

Why can't they be happy to talk about how wonderful the IRL is over at the IRL forum, and leave the CC folks alone.

[indycool]

How do I know it? CART and CC announced many times that it had taken over the promoter's financial risks and rewards in Portland. And it has been a loser, but CC keeps it going as a place to race on the schedule. So, CC can write itself a check for the sanction fee and go right back and deposit it in the same account if it wants to, I guess.

As for track rentals, CC is PAYING the track to run there, the track is RECEIVING the money and CC's deals with a sanction fee are the same as Portland. Don't know what new cluster of LLCs might be involved or can't say it's absolutely true, but it's rumored the European races are track rentals.

[sanguin]

How do I know it? CART and CC announced many times that it had taken over the promoter's financial risks and rewards in Portland. And it has been a loser, but CC keeps it going as a place to race on the schedule. So, CC can write itself a check for the sanction fee and go right back and deposit it in the same account if it wants to, I guess.

As for track rentals, CC is PAYING the track to run there, the track is RECEIVING the money and CC's deals with a sanction fee are the same as Portland. Don't know what new cluster of LLCs might be involved or can't say it's absolutely true, but it's rumored the European races are track rentals.

prove it.

[sanguin]

THEY - cannot stand that CC has and is building a fan base, and has a series that people watch and are interested in. Just look at the forum list when you log on - there are alway at least ten times as many users here. Why is that?? It is not just the 14 IRL regulars that are here bashing CC -- it is CC fans.

Why can't they be happy to talk about how wonderful the IRL is over at the IRL forum, and leave the CC folks alone.

Yes, there are many more CC forums with 10 tens more traffic than the other series.CC has the fans.

[indycool]

You pay for it yourself through the Oregonian's archives......it's been announced in some form in each year and a story has appeared in the Oregonian going back to the CART days. It's always the last race put on the schedule because it's a money loser. CART, and now CC, have hired Mike Neely's Global Events Group to organize the race each year.

[indycool]

sanguin, if you're basing the number of fans on how many are on the forums, IMO, you're doing the same thing The Amigos did....point to CW and say, "look at all these hardcore fans we have." The numbers of people on the forums are VERY small in the big picture. Do you see 200,000 posters from Edmonton on the fora, for example?

[nanders]

They might want that kind of money, but what is the VALUE? What VALUE does it have now compared to when they spent $3.2 million for it four years ago? Obviously, there will be differences of opinion on those questions.

It appears that GF thinks it's worth 100M. I guess that's what he's put in it. I think he's now is the linchpin to one series.

Why can't they be happy to talk about how wonderful the IRL is over at the IRL forum, and leave the CC folks alone.

Because most of them want to see a unified series, not a continuation of a pathetic & childish 'we have more fans' argument.

The problem with AOWR is the people who think that there is any merit in continuing with division.

It doesn't matter who has what, who might be winning or, most stupidly of all, who has the most forum members on a forum.

The only thing that matters is that AOWR gets its act together.

[ChaimWitz]

THEY - cannot stand that CC has and is building a fan base, and has a series that people watch and are interested in. Just look at the forum list when you log on - there are alway at least ten times as many users here. Why is that?? It is not just the 14 IRL regulars that are here bashing CC -- it is CC fans.

Why can't they be happy to talk about how wonderful the IRL is over at the IRL forum, and leave the CC folks alone.

Sandfly, How do you come up with this stuff? The number of people on the Champ Car forum here vs. the IRL forum is meaningless. For a better comparison go to Alexa.com and use the option that will allow you to compare the traffic and reach numbers for IndyCar.com and ChampCarWorldSeries.com. There is also an option that lets you view the entire year. Go to the bottom of the page and you will see that fans from ChampCar's home market represent only about a third of their traffic. Therin lies the the truth of the matter.

FYI, I am not an "IRL Regular". I just happen to be done with turning a blind eye to the delusional falsehoods spewed by the OWRS bunch. In my opinion, their only interest in our sport was to leverage CCWS to get something for next to nothing. That has failed and I don't expect them to do anything now other than to try to spitefully stay in the way long enough to force a buyout of some sort from TG on more favorable terms than the current bleak circumstances permit. Don't hold your breath for that.

As for the crowd numbers for CCWS events. They are seriously fluffed and most people on the business side of the sport know this. If there really were all these legions of Champ Car fans rooting for Gommendy and Jani, etc.— then where the hell were they? They certainly didn't show up at the races or watch on TV in numbers sufficient to make a business out of this mess.

In my view you are one of a hard core group of fanatics who live to repeat the same cult-like pro-ChampCar and anti-IRL statements (regardless of the truth) . Please get some perspective. You are not on that other hate filled site. People here are actually trying to realistically think about what might happen next. Why don't you try to join the discussion rather than spout the same tired dogma?

[sanguin]

Sandfly, How do you come up with this stuff? The number of people on the Champ Car forum here vs. the IRL forum is meaningless. For a better comparison go to Alexa.com and use the option that will allow you to compare the traffic and reach numbers for IndyCar.com and ChampCarWorldSeries.com. There is also an option that lets you view the entire year. Go to the bottom of the page and you will see that fans from ChampCar's home market represent only about a third of their traffic. Therin lies the the truth of the matter.

FYI, I am not an "IRL Regular". I just happen to be done with turning a blind eye to the delusional falsehoods spewed by the OWRS bunch. In my opinion, their only interest in our sport was to leverage CCWS to get something for next to nothing. That has failed and I don't expect them to do anything now other than to try to spitefully stay in the way long enough to force a buyout of some sort from TG on more favorable terms than the current bleak circumstances permit. Don't hold your breath for that.

As for the crowd numbers for CCWS events. They are seriously fluffed and most people on the business side of the sport know this. If there really were all these legions of Champ Car fans rooting for Gommendy and Jani, etc.— then where the hell were they? They certainly didn't show up at the races or watch on TV in numbers sufficient to make a business out of this mess.

In my view you are one of a hard core group of fanatics who live to repeat the same cult-like pro-ChampCar and anti-IRL statements (regardless of the truth) . Please get some perspective. You are not on that other hate filled site. People here are actually trying to realistically think about what might happen next. Why don't you try to join the discussion rather than spout the same tired dogma?

seriously, if that were true about the IRL, wouldn't they be more successful?

These forums are only the tip of the iceberg of the total amount of fans. Just judging from that and the traffic on CC forums + the fans that lurk and fans who attend but don't read forums and the fans that go for the event and the casual fan and the curious fan and the fan with friends ,etc.,these forums a good barometer of what's going on. CC had over 2 million in attendance last year. If you want to refute it, put up some links and numbers ,not just you're opinion.

[Andrewmcm]

These forums are only the tip of the iceberg of the total amount of fans. Just judging from that and the traffic on CC forums + the fans that lurk and fans who attend but don't read forums and the fans that go for the event and the casual fan and the curious fan and the fan with friends ,etc.,these forums a good barometer of what's going on. CC had over 2 million in attendance last year. If you want to refute it, put up some links and numbers ,not just you're opinion.

So, apart from that 2 million figure that was taken from CCWS's website (impartial crowd statistics I'm sure) - isn't all of what you've said just your opinion too?

Ever thought about a career in stand-up?

[garyshell]

seriously, if that were true about the IRL, wouldn't they be more successful?

These forums are only the tip of the iceberg of the total amount of fans. Just judging from that and the traffic on CC forums + the fans that lurk and fans who attend but don't read forums and the fans that go for the event and the casual fan and the curious fan and the fan with friends ,etc.,these forums a good barometer of what's going on. CC had over 2 million in attendance last year. If you want to refute it, put up some links and numbers ,not just you're opinion.

What, so you can ignore them, just like you ignored my list of sponsors I put up a couple of days ago? Or like you just ignored the numbers showing the eyeball count on the IRL website versus the eyeball count at the ChampCar website? You have NO way, I repeat NO FREAKIN' WAY, to determine unique eyeball counts across the various forums. Therefore there is no way to use any such numbers to gauge anything. The eyeball count for the websites CAN however be quantified.

What is it that you are selling again? Remind me. Oh that's right I forgot, its another load of ...

Gary

[Lousada]

CC had over 2 million in attendance last year.

Please put a breakdown of this 2 million? I asked you before but never got a reply.

If you want to refute it, put up some links and numbers ,not just you're opinion.

But we're still waiting for your links and numbers to back up your statement.

No proof to back up your statements = no point.

CC has the fans.

Why can't it get sponsors and better TV coverage then?

Why is it, with all these millions of ChampCar fans, the TV channels aren't throwing money in the direction of the Three Amigos?

If ChampCar has millions of fans, how is it that both Formula One & Nascar have lots of sponsors and mega-bucks TV deals because of their fan-base but ChampCar doesn't?

How come, if ChampCar has such a big fan-base, does Eurosport let every other sporting event take precedence?

[nanders]

What, so you can ignore them, just like you ignored my list of sponsors I put up a couple of days ago? Or like you just ignored the numbers showing the eyeball count on the IRL website versus the eyeball count at the ChampCar website? You have NO way, I repeat NO FREAKIN' WAY, to determine unique eyeball counts across the various forums. Therefore there is no way to use any such numbers to gauge anything. The eyeball count for the websites CAN however be quantified.

What is it that you are selling again? Remind me. Oh that's right I forgot, its another load of ...

Gary

http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?c=1&f=555555&u=champcarworldseries.com&u=indycar.com&u=motorsportforum.com&r=6m&y=r&z=3&h=300&w=610

This is a strong estimate.

[tbyars]

What, so you can ignore them, just like you ignored my list of sponsors I put up a couple of days ago?

Gary, I think this is a very important point that a couple of folks like Sandfly and others should start to see.

Some of us have made careers, it seems, of giving sanguin the linked, accepted proof he has requested. His response is to refute with things he admts are just his opinions, or, more often, to simply never respond at all. He'll wait a few days, and then pick up on the conversation with more of his speculation, ignoring that you gave him the proof he requested in the first place.

All the time, of course, injecting slams against the IRL, whether it was part of the conversation at the time or not, then justifying it because "everyone does it."

I know I am done providing sanquin links or proof. He ignores that proof when I do, and he NEVER responds with any proof of his own. It is simple a waste of my time.

[Chaparral66]

Why can't it get sponsors and better TV coverage then?

Why is it, with all these millions of ChampCar fans, the TV channels aren't throwing money in the direction of the Three Amigos?

If ChampCar has millions of fans, how is it that both Formula One & Nascar have lots of sponsors and mega-bucks TV deals because of their fan-base but ChampCar doesn't?

How come, if ChampCar has such a big fan-base, does Eurosport let every other sporting event take precedence?

Well, for one thing, The Amigos are clueless about marketing. They don't come out with a schedule for the following year until very late, sometimes not until a couple of months before the first race, so no one knows where or when the events will be until after a sponsor has made all his buys. CCWS has had a bad habit of promoting races they don't even have etched in stone yet, like their Asian events. They are also terrible about making driver announcements with a enough lead time so a team can do some marketing with said dirver and try to find some funding. In addition to that, most of the Champ Car owners change drivers so often (even in season, like Mexico last year), there is no chance for the fans (and potential customers) to develop loyalties to the competitors; not to mention having so few Americans in the field. The TV package is lousy, since most of the events this year aren't live; some are just 1 hour highlight shows on ABC/ESPN, which is no way to keep an already dwindling audience. And their promotion of their events, if reports from Champ Car fans on this forum from around the country are accurate, is almost non-existent. Not a whole lot of sponsors would take a chance on spending hard cash on a series that doesn't seem organized well enough to find a sharpened pencil in a cup.

[Sandfly]

Why can't it get sponsors and better TV coverage then?

Why is it, with all these millions of ChampCar fans, the TV channels aren't throwing money in the direction of the Three Amigos?

If ChampCar has millions of fans, how is it that both Formula One & Nascar have lots of sponsors and mega-bucks TV deals because of their fan-base but ChampCar doesn't?

How come, if ChampCar has such a big fan-base, does Eurosport let every other sporting event take precedence?


You know the answer to that!!! You guys tell us every day. It is the speedway - the name IndyCar.. Well guess what - it is the CC product that built the CART fanbase using the Name IndyCar. When TG took it back--- he essentially stole the name and tried to apply it to his vision. IT DOES NOT WORK -- People expected to see the CART IndyCar and instead get IRL Indycars and tune out. THAT has hurt the sport. There have been many attempts in the past to have reasonable discusions with TG and it has been made clear that he will demand control. That is not going to happen. So we continue with two seperate series on seperate paths. The IRL will likely continue to morph into what CC is today. Even with Tony Cotman, it is still controlled by a misguided vision that fails to grasp the full spectrum of open wheel racing.

IRL is simply not the answer. Maybe CC is not either but at least they have fans for the series not just one race.

[ChaimWitz]

a new car, new events, revived Atlantics with the winner going to CC, tv contract,new teams,an engine manufacturer,that's quite an accomplishment in 4 years. Much more than the IRL has done in 12.

If a promoter doesn't put on a race, it doesn't take away anything from what the series has already achieved. Things need to be done ,absolutely.But its not the end of the world,or the IRL would fold without Michigan too. Maybe I'm not understanding that one race that never happened is outweighing all the good racing I saw this season.

See you in 2008.

Well my dear Sanguin, let's take a drink from the reality fountain:

The new Atlantic Car was created by Swift in an amazingly short period and I understand that they took all the risk on the project and the teams paid for the cars--not ChampCar. Ditto for Panoz but I do hear that the Amigos paid for many of those cars in the end since the teams did not have the budget for them. Ooooops! Smooth move Amigos.

As for the "two million dollar" Atlantic champion's prize, that was indeed so in 2006 but we now know it was not as a cash prize. It was apparently a combination of cash, equipment and services that would have needed to be given to someone in subsidies anyhow so I will call it a wash. We won't discuss 2007 out of respect for the dying.

Then there is your comment about the "new events". Huh? Excuse me, Did you pay any attention at all to the past four years? Are you really that delusional? I guess we all know the answer to that question.

The "TV Contract" is a time buy and a crappy one at that. Whoo Hooooo. If you had a big enough checkbook, you could have had a "TV Contract" just like it. Big deal.

The Mazda relationship is a win but I know for a fact that it is not big money and I also hear that it wasn't ChampCar who attracted the opportunity.

You somehow failed to mention the hit parade of epic disasters and missteps that have dogged the Ego Amigos since the beginning. I wonder why? Perhaps doing so would have exceeded the word count of the allowable post size on the forum.

Your elitist attitude is laughable given the reality of ChampCar's circumstance. The OWRS bunch is smelling like seriously burnt toast. Most people can see (and smell) that and I am sure you can too but won't admit it. I just wonder what your angle is in this. For some reason, I doubt it is sincere fan enthusiasm.

So Sanguin, what happens next? How are the Amigos going to lead you and the blind faithful to the promised land in Zolder, Jerez and Assen? While you are at it, please do get back to us and let us know how ChampCar makes sense as a business. We are still waiting with baited breath for you to enlighten us. I suspect it is all just basic egonomics.

And I know, tt is all about the racing and the racing is good. Oakey dokey.

[FlatChatRacer]

ChaimWitz,

Far be it for me to defend Sanguin and the other Cheerleaders of similar mindset, but I don't think he has any angle.

Sanguin is simply playing Defense for Champ Car to the constant and overwhelming offensive strikes from the pro-IRL posters.

Champ Car is a bit like the Alamo, and Sanguin has decided to load up and bunker down with them.

If Champ Car is in trouble, he is going to defend it to the death all guns blazing!

No matter what you think about him or his posts, there is something admirable about standing up for something that means a lot to you,
don't you think?

[indycool]

Sandfly, do your homework about the term Indy car.

First of all, the series was known as the PPG Indy Car World Series. The Speedway made a deal with Molson and the Aussies to use the term Indy in their race names. Since Molson no longer has Toronto, it is no longer called the Molson Indy.

When the split occurred, there was a lawsuit involved. One of the resolutions of the lawsuit was that NEITHER CART nor IRL could use the term "Indy Car" for something like five years. After that, it was open only for the IRL to use it and CART worked up using the term "Champ Car."

Nobody "stole" anything. Indy cars run at Indy. Duh.

[FlatChatRacer]

IndyCool,

Why are you bothering?

Some posters will ignore the facts because it suits their agenda to do so.

Why let the facts get in the way of a good dose of vitriol.

With some posters, your message of reason and objectivity just simply won't be acknowledged.

[indycool]

Sadly, FCR, you have a point.

[ChaimWitz]

ChaimWitz,

Far be it for me to defend Sanguin and the other Cheerleaders of similar mindset, but I don't think he has any angle.

Sanguin is simply playing Defense for Champ Car to the constant and overwhelming offensive strikes from the pro-IRL posters.

Champ Car is a bit like the Alamo, and Sanguin has decided to load up and bunker down with them.

If Champ Car is in trouble, he is going to defend it to the death all guns blazing!

No matter what you think about him or his posts, there is something admirable about standing up for something that means a lot to you,
don't you think?

Point taken FlatChatRacer. My apologies to Sanguin for suggesting that he is anything but "just a fan".

As for his choosing to defend ChampCar at the Alamo with all guns blazing to the death. I respectfully beg to differ. There are no bullets in Sanguin's guns. For some reason, he choses to use blanks. When someone stands up for a cause they believe in, I can respect that. But they must make the case for their cause not just irrationally spew falsehoods and spite. To me that is not worthy of respect.

I spent much of my professional life making a case for CART and for ChampCar. Around the time that the Amigos arrived, making a credible and rational case became almost impossible to do with any hint of intellectual honesty. Facts and truth became bothersome to those involved in the mad rush to spool up hate and spin. I had to step back and take stock. The OWRS version of ChampCar was no longer the sport I believed in and the tone and spirit of the Amigo's was not something that I wanted to be associated with.

I hope that those who disagree with me can respect that.

[Sandfly]

Sandfly, do your homework about the term Indy car.

First of all, the series was known as the PPG Indy Car World Series. The Speedway made a deal with Molson and the Aussies to use the term Indy in their race names. Since Molson no longer has Toronto, it is no longer called the Molson Indy.

When the split occurred, there was a lawsuit involved. One of the resolutions of the lawsuit was that NEITHER CART nor IRL could use the term "Indy Car" for something like five years. After that, it was open only for the IRL to use it and CART worked up using the term "Champ Car."

Nobody "stole" anything. Indy cars run at Indy. Duh.


It is my understanding, that TG owns the rights to anything "INDY". The Championship Auto Racing Teams, Inc., acquired the rights to use the name "IndyCar" in the CART PPG INdyCar World Series". CART had at least one opportunity to purchase the rights to the name, and did not. They should have. When TG took his bat and went home, and the lease of rights to "IndyCar" expired, he put it on his series.

While I am not suggesting that TG did anything illegal, as in "stole", he did in fact take the good will and image that CART had built with the name IndyCar and put it on his faltering series. This lead to a lot of confusion when the nature of " IndyCar" changed.

I'm not saying that he legally can not, or even that he should not, but the fact that he did take the name IndyCar and use it as if his cars and his series were what people think of as CART IndyCar -- he is trying to fool people and is being deceptive. But what's new.

[tbyars]

It is my understanding, that TG owns the rights to anything "INDY". The Championship Auto Racing Teams, Inc., acquired the rights to use the name "IndyCar" in the CART PPG INdyCar World Series". CART had at least one opportunity to purchase the rights to the name, and did not. They should have. When TG took his bat and went home, and the lease of rights to "IndyCar" expired, he put it on his series.

While I am not suggesting that TG did anything illegal, as in "stole", he did in fact take the good will and image that CART had built with the name IndyCar and put it on his faltering series. This lead to a lot of confusion when the nature of " IndyCar" changed.

I'm not saying that he legally can not, or even that he should not, but the fact that he did take the name IndyCar and use it as if his cars and his series were what people think of as CART IndyCar -- he is trying to fool people and is being deceptive. But what's new.

Whatever your understanding, Indycool's post is exactly, 100% accurate and factual. If that is not your understanding, then you need to change your understanding if you want to work with facts.

Don't you think that "IndyCars" should be the cars that run the Indy 500?

Talk about good will, let's confuse the fans even further. Let's call a series full of open wheel cars "IndyCars" then have to explain to casual fans "well, except that these aren't the cars that run at Indy, but do run a bunch of street races that have no resemblance whatsoever to to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Get it?"

Yea. That would be great for the sport, wouldn't it?

This is so easy even a caveman could get it.

IndyCars run the Indy 500.

[indycool]

PPG acquired the Indy name for the PPG Indy Car World Series. It never was the CART PPG Indy Car World Series. When PPG was done, it became the FedEx Championship Series. There was NO CART Indy Car. The Indianapolis 500 was part of the PPG Indy Car World Series.

CART having the right to PURCHASE the name is news to me. Again, it was settled in court before a lawsuit about a number of things was tried before it got to trial in the manner I posted. The five-year prohibition on usage of the term for BOTH sides was agreed on, presumably for particularly that reason of confusion.

As tb just said, Indy cars run at Indy. Duh.

he is trying to fool people and is being deceptive.

Yes, it is shocking that a series that doesn't run in the Indy 500 isn't allowed to use the term 'IndyCar'.

Well, about as shocking as Burger King not been allowed to use the term "Big Mac".

[twisted steel]

IndyCool,

Why are you bothering?

Some posters will ignore the facts because it suits their agenda to do so.

Why let the facts get in the way of a good dose of vitriol.

With some posters, your message of reason and objectivity just simply won't be acknowledged.

IndyCool bothers because he really believes it is Champcar holding the IRL down.As do all the others that rally behind him.The last thing he would ever want to admit is King Tony is doing an incredibly lousy job.

Then there are the ones who have to post 6000 times that all they want is a unified series and you have a CHAMPCAR forum that is absolutly polluted.

[indycool]

indycool bothers because inaccuracies to bolster the cause of hate to keep CC going are ridiculous. If CC is going to keep going, it isn't going to be because of hatred of Tony George or the IRL, although that seems to fashionable even to some who weren't around for the first split in '79 that PPG put back together, let alone the '96 split that no one has and the '04 continuation of the split in a CART bankruptcy court hearing.

[FlatChatRacer]

Twisted Steel,

I don't buy your assertion about IndyCool at all. I have lurked on these forums since 2002, and I finally started posting in 2007. During that time I have read a lot of his/her posts and whilst appearing to support and show a preference for the IRL, they were never fanatically biased or filled with inaccuracies.

None of IndyCools posts come across as showing a blind faith in TG and the IRL. In fact quite often, he/she can see both sides of the debate and discuss both points of view based on known evidence and logical conclusions.

This is or certainly was in the past, one the best sites to read about AOWR and view thought provoking discussions and debates. Recently though some posts have become personal and some posters simply ignore the facts and post completely delusional statements.

Now, a lot of this has to do with the current situation surrounding the Champ Car series and the struggles it seems to be facing just to survive 2008, and hopefully beyond. Yes, TG started the most recent split, but Champ Car is not run by him and he does not control it's destiny.

If posters want to rant at someone, they should be asking serious and searching questions of the Champ Car owners and leaders. It's time for them to stand up and explain where our series is going and what the future plans are.

PS: Note I say he/she, because I don't know IndyCool's gender.

[ChaimWitz]

IndyCool bothers because he really believes it is Champcar holding the IRL down.As do all the others that rally behind him.The last thing he would ever want to admit is King Tony is doing an incredibly lousy job.

Then there are the ones who have to post 6000 times that all they want is a unified series and you have a CHAMPCAR forum that is absolutly polluted.

ChampCar is not 'holding the IRL down". It is quite the opposite and this appears to be fatal to ChampCar. To state otherwise defies logic. This has been a fierce niche business competition between two bitter-rivals. One business was always going to lose this battle (actually, this will be the second loss for the same basic business). As for a unified series, people post in support of that idea because it makes absolute sense on every level (unless you are a fanatic). Some here think "it is all about the racing". Many series that have gone out of business had good racing but they were not good businesses so they died. The past twelve years proves that there is only room for one top level open wheel series in the North American market. Like CART before it, that series is not going to be ChampCar. You simply don't like the outcome.

[garyshell]

No matter what you think about him or his posts, there is something admirable about standing up for something that means a lot to you,
don't you think?


Oh please! Warn me next time you are going to make this sort of statement. I want to be sure I don't have a mouth full of Coca Cola when I read it.

Admirable? ADMIRABLE??? For spewing some of the STUPIDEST pollyanna remarks ever seen on this forum? Admirable? Surely you jest. There are most assuredly some folks here who have done an admirable job of defending the series, but Sanguin is not among them. There is nothing admirable about being so over the top with a lack of logic that it reflects badly on the other folks who do try to defend it.



Point taken FlatChatRacer. My apologies to Sanguin for suggesting that he is anything but "just a fan".

What is with the PC stance, I think I may puke. There are many of us here who are "just a fan". To besmirch us by including Sanguin in that group is beyond belief.


Gary

[Sandfly]

PPG acquired the Indy name for the PPG Indy Car World Series. It never was the CART PPG Indy Car World Series. When PPG was done, it became the FedEx Championship Series. There was NO CART Indy Car. The Indianapolis 500 was part of the PPG Indy Car World Series.

CART having the right to PURCHASE the name is news to me. Again, it was settled in court before a lawsuit about a number of things was tried before it got to trial in the manner I posted. The five-year prohibition on usage of the term for BOTH sides was agreed on, presumably for particularly that reason of confusion.

As tb just said, Indy cars run at Indy. Duh.


I do not dispute TG's legal right to call his series Indy Car. And it certainly does make sense to call the cars that run there "Indy Cars". I am not suggesting to you that CC should seek to start using that name. I am simply telling you that CART sanctioned the PPG IndyCar World Series, and it was commonly known as the CART PPG IndyCar (One word) World Series. Yes it is true that the I-500 was sanctioned by USAC - not CART - but the series was commonly called the CART PPG IndyCar World Series. ( This was long before the issue was discussed in court following the split) That was / is common perception - and perceprtion is what I am talking about. When people - at least of my generation who went to lots of I-500's before the split - look at the I-500 they are surprised that what they see is not what they thought Indy Cars were.

The lawyer for CART told me that they had passed on the chance to buy the name IndyCar. Maybe thats why he is'nt involved anymore.

Having been there, you surely must agree that the current use of the name Indy Car - gives TG an assumed association with CART IndyCar that is not warranted. TG makes no effort to make a distinction, to the casual fan, and if he did he would lose the positive attributes that CART created.

[indycool]

It was NOT CART IndyCar and it was NOT the CART PPG Indy Car World Series. PPG bought the whole name, included the USAC-sanctioned Indianapolis 500 in it, and the sport went down the road. CART never had anything to do with the Indianapolis 500.

I'd check with your lawyer friend again. PPG secured the rights to put IndyCar in the title. Molson and Lexmark and its predecessors secured the right to put Indy in their race titles. Nothing has ever BEEN sold. It's been licensed.

TG has no "assumed association" with CART. CART is bankrupt and has been gone for four years.

[Sandfly]

You seem to not want to understand what I am saying. I am telling you what the average joe CART fan, or IndyCar fan or PPG fan from the CART days perceived to be "the series". I am well aware of the difference between PPG and Fed-Ex. I have plenty of stuff from the series prior to the split to trace the history of the series sponsors and name changes. You are talking about the legal name of the Series and I am talking about what it was known as by the fans of open wheel racing. It is the "product" - that is represented by the name IndyCar. I am telling you that the product that the IRL puts on track today - benifits from the use of the Name IndyCar which CART used during it's heyday to create a very popular racing product. To call the series the Indy Racing League does not do the same as calling the IRL 'IndyCar" -- which was a name used by CART and PPG to put on a great series of car races. It is not the use of "Indy" that I am discusssing - but the name "IndyCar". By using the name IndyCar, Tg benifits from the images created by CART during the years that the series used the name. That is all.

[Civic]

They were Champ Cars before they were called IndyCars. IndyCars just made more sense to the average person because of the Indy 500.

I think I understand Sandfly's point in that TG is taking advantage of the "brand equity" of the term "IndyCar". It was CART that arguably had a big part in creating that brand equity.

Even after the split, many people (Michael Schumacher did it in an interview) referred to Champ Cars as "IndyCars".

Too bad the average person/race fan is not aware of the history of the "Champ Car" name.

As to this topic "What Happens Next?" For me, the answer is that I will request the weekend of the Long Beach GP off so I can attend the event! =)

[indycool]

TG benefits from the name IndyCar because it clearly identifies the cars that run at Indy. I understand what you're saying. I just disagree with the significance you place on CART's part in this regard. Clearly, CART and PPG used the term IndyCar to take advantage of the benefits and recognition of running Indy and the general knowledge that describes those folks who run the Indianapolis 500. That's why they didn't call 'em "CART cars."

[EagleEye]

PPG acquired the Indy name for the PPG Indy Car World Series. It never was the CART PPG Indy Car World Series. When PPG was done, it became the FedEx Championship Series. There was NO CART Indy Car. The Indianapolis 500 was part of the PPG Indy Car World Series.

CART having the right to PURCHASE the name is news to me. Again, it was settled in court before a lawsuit about a number of things was tried before it got to trial in the manner I posted. The five-year prohibition on usage of the term for BOTH sides was agreed on, presumably for particularly that reason of confusion.

As tb just said, Indy cars run at Indy. Duh.

PPG was the CART series title sponsor, not owner of the series. The CART series, at one time was indeed called Indycar, with a license agreement with IMS. PPG never aquired anything, but just paid CART to be the title sponsor. Indycar, as cART was called for a time, did indded have the PPG title sponsor in place. Papyrus (sp) even had the Indcar Video game out, when it CART went by indycar.

Again, PPG was a series sponsor to CART, and later the Indycar series, which was CART. PPG never owned anything in CART of Indycar (CART). The license for CART's use the Indycar name lapsed in the late 90's (CART decided not to continue payment for the use of the name) and CART could no longer use the name. All rights reverted back to IMS, and they could use it after some time period (you may be right that it was five years, as the IRL started usng the name again in s003 or 04).

[indycool]

EE, you're right in the respect that CART called them Indy cars before PPG came on board as series sponsor and formalized it. The CART series really had no name before PPG came on board and CART was trying to get the name CART known. PPG got use of the Indy Car name (and holding the series together with Indy as an overall financial umbrella) officially by also subsidizing the entire field as the largest corporate sponsor of the Indianapolis 500, plus a $100,000 pole award, plus starter's rings for the 33 drivers who started the race, among other things.

But the status of the term "Indy car," who could use it in the future and when, WAS decided as settlement of a lawsuit in December, 1996.

[Civic]

It was a 7-year gap, not a 5-year gap.

[Sandfly]

We are picking the nit here. I think Civic understands the point regarding the brand equity that TG gains by using "IndyCar".

[indycool]

And you need to understand that the PPG Indy Car World Series got brand equity out of it when it raced at Indy. Now, there is no PPG Indy Car World Series and there is no CART. It's the Indy Racing League that races at Indy so it's only natural that its cars are Indy cars. Big deal. No point in the IRL calling 'em Long Beach Cars or something.

[FlatChatRacer]

Ok, so they are IndyCars.

Back to the thread title.

Does anyone know whether Colt21 was correct with his teaser that there will be some special gathering on 17th Feb between the people of the IRL and Champ Car?

Furthermore, does anyone know whether this gathering will have an effect on what happens next to Champ Car and the IRL?

[indycool]

Feb. 17 is two weeks from today....haven't heard a word around Indy.

[tbyars]

Feb. 17 is two weeks from today....haven't heard a word around Indy.

Frankly, I don't give Colt21's "event" much credibility.

His clues clearly point toward either Denver or a ski lodge someplace. He indicates it is pretty common knowledge.

The only "common knowledge" event I know of on February 17 is the 50th running of the Daytona 500. An event where some very significant folks in AOWR will be present because they also own NASCAR teams. Considering the stature of these particular owners, I doubt there would be ANY significant event or meeting bringing the two sides together without them.

And I would bet that at least half of the teams and drivers from both series will be present at Daytona even without having an interest in any team.

And if the "event" is at Daytona, and the "mile high" story was a red herring, then, again, I have to think that all of Penske and Ganassi's attention will be on other things on February 17. The 13th or 15th is perhaps plausible, but not the 17th.

And, of course, if Colt21's meeting goes unnoticed and no news comes from it, then all he has to say is the same thing he has said so far...that we are all just not enough "on the inside" to know about it.

[garyshell]

Colt21 isn't even talking about a meeting. He is talking about a wedding. Not a figurative one either, a real one. His smug, "I know better than you" attitude, prevented him from being specific. He WANTED us to think he was privy to some special event that was going to change the course of the debate. He wasn't.

Gary

[tbyars]

Colt21 isn't even talking about a meeting. He is talking about a wedding. Not a figurative one either, a real one. His smug, "I know better than you" attitude, prevented him from being specific. He WANTED us to think he was privy to some special event that was going to change the course of the debate. He wasn't.

Gary

Good catch, Gary. Makes perfect sense.

[Chaparral66]

The split was not continued in 2004, The Amigos came in and bought the CART assets, retained the Champ Car tradition, and renamed the CART the Champ Car World Series, thereby maintaining a series already in place. IC, I guess you and I will do this dance every time. You're still special to me, though :)

[indycool]

Well, Chap, we'll just respectfully agree to disagree on that one.

[Chaparral66]

Well, Chap, we'll just respectfully agree to disagree on that one.

OK, we can do that. Tell you what, IC...next time I'm in Indy (which is not at all impossible, I have relatives there), we can hook up and see if we can come up with a plan to heal this split and present to the open wheel community at large and see what kind of response we get. Then we'll have to go to the kart track...

[indycool]

Summertime. Whiteland kart track, the oldest one in the country, now with a big NASCAR style bank in it! :)

[ChaimWitz]

OK, we can do that. Tell you what, IC...next time I'm in Indy (which is not at all impossible, I have relatives there), we can hook up and see if we can come up with a plan to heal this split and present to the open wheel community at large and see what kind of response we get. Then we'll have to go to the kart track...

Chaparral and IndyCool, please get stated on the plan. Then we can all go to the kart track in Indy and celebrate with a little four wheeled aggression. I will probably get tossed for bumping but it will be fun anyhow.

In my my mind, the argument that the split ended ended in 2004 is off a bit just like the argument the OWRS incarnation of ChampCar carries on the traditions of American Open Wheel Racing. Both fall short of the truth.

I also think that The Amigos (except for one) are opportunistic "foreign fighters" who are keeping this tragic and devastating civil war going for reasons that have nothing to do with the best interests of the people in the nation in which the war is being fought. They still ride on a red tide of hate and fear because those are the only things left to save them. But the tide is going out now. The OWRS owners have all but lost this war yet they just won't admit it because some of them have checkbooks to match their needy egos. That won't go on forever. The truth is that the reasons for the split have shifted and the differences between what CART was and IndyCar is have diminished. Spite is all that keeps the war going now that the commercial proposition of the Amigo's vision for the Champ Car World Series has been largely invalidated.

On the subject of truth, I think it is interesting that the truth about the comparative lap times between an IRL car and a ChampCar at Sebring this past week has not surfaced. Someone should look deeper for the answer. I hear the lap times were very close. If indeed so, a few folks here won't be able to handle the truth because it punctures their elitist bubble. I looked back in this thread at the haughty and indignant reaction to the fact that the lap times for Champ Cars (the last time they ran) and Indy Cars at Mid Ohio and Milwaukee were virtually the same and I chuckled. Horror of horrors! Another reason to hate bites the dust.

What I am getting at, and Chaparrall66 has touched on it, is that we all have more in common than some want us to realize. I am neither a "ChampCar-World-Series-guy" nor an "IndyCar-Series-guy". I am a "One-Sport-Will-Be-Better-Than-This-Nightmare-Guy. Common sense tells me that I am not alone.

So, the point of this thread is what happens next. I hope that a wave of common sense and compassion for the fans sweeps over the warring factions in this sport. I also hope that the wave touches us here. We are all passionate nut cases on this board and this is proven by the things we focus on. The average fan could care less about the leaders, the politics or the the business side. They just want the sport to be better than it is and that starts with having one series with all the best drivers, teams and tracks. My feeling is that this will happen within a year because there is no good reason that this should go on any longer. We are down to a pathetic six US races (three of which likely pay little or no sanction fee), a 14-18 car field of spec racers and only seven confirmed drivers two months before Long Beach. This is not progress -- no matter how much happy spin Mark C. or Sanguin put out.

To me, the situation with Walker is a sign that this is not making sense any longer. I don't buy all the explanations. He is a racer of the first order and he has a driver and team that are true championship contenders. His absence at Sebring says to me that he either has no money to go racing or that he has lost faith in ChampCar. Think about what happens next if either or both of those things are true.

Also reflect on the number of posts and replies to this one thread. From my perspective, the nearly nine hundred replies and over 36,000 views gives a very strong clue as to what everyone is really thinking.

[indycool]

Excellent post, Chaimwitz.

[april]

I would respectfully suggest to you, ChaimWitz, that some people would rather have two series from which to choose rather than being force fed one merged series that features Beaver Patrick going in circles in Nashville and Iowa. That's all. Simple as that. Not spite. Just don't care for the product being offered.

[indycool]

Although I doubt that any joining of the two series will be 100 percent what ANY and EVERY individual wants to his/her own liking, april, I believe you to be in the minority.

[sanguin]

Here are the lap times from testing-

Feb, 2008:

1- "Fearless" Franck Perera, #24 Conquest Racing, 49.806 seconds, 120.636 mph, 205 laps
2- Graham Rahal, #2 Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing, 49.950 seconds, 120.288 mph, 238 laps
3- Alex Tagliani, #21 PKV Racing, 50.173 seconds, 119.754 mph, 281 laps
4- Oriol Servia, #22 PKV Racing, 50.178 seconds, 119.742 mph, 288 laps
5- Justin Wilson, #1 Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing, 50.207 seconds, 119.673 mph, 269 laps
6- Franck Montagny, #7 Forsythe/Pettit Racing, 50.209 seconds, 119.668 mph, 207 laps
7- Bruno Junqueira, #19 Dale Coyne Racing, 50.507 seconds, 118.962 mph, 247 laps
8- Alex Figge, #29 Pacific Coast Motorsports, 50.521 seconds, 118.929 mph, 247 laps
9- Simon Pagenaud, #34 Conquest Racing, 50.702 seconds, 118.504 mph, 186 laps
10- Enrique Bernoldi, #8 Rocketsports Racing, 50.714 seconds, 118.476 mph, 255 laps
11- Paul Tracy, #3 Forsythe/Pettit Racing, 50.732 seconds, 118.434 mph, 179 laps
12- David Martinez, #28 Pacific Coast Motorsports, 50.736 seconds, 118.425 mph, 255 laps
13- Ernesto Viso, #4 Minardi Team USA, 50.800 seconds, 118.276 mph, 164 laps
14- Mario Moraes, #11 Dale Coyne Racing, 50.930 seconds, 117.974 mph, 241 laps

Rumor has it they are 3,4 or 5 seconds faster than the other series tests at Sebring.

Walker will have an announcement, others are grasping at straws, he said no to believe the rumors.

The only reason this thread has so many views is because the author keeps bumping it up.Anyone can do that. But it also shows how many care about Champ Car.

[indycool]

You make it sound like they were qualifying down there.

Push-to-pass for sanguin PR? Weather? What specifics were each team on each side testing or was each team on each side going for outright speed? On a track neither of them runs a race on. With 200 mile-an-hour race cars going 120 miles an hour.

Weak.

[heelntoe]

Here are the lap times from testing-

Feb, 2008:

1- "Fearless" Franck Perera, #24 Conquest Racing, 49.806 seconds, 120.636 mph, 205 laps
2- Graham Rahal, #2 Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing, 49.950 seconds, 120.288 mph, 238 laps
3- Alex Tagliani, #21 PKV Racing, 50.173 seconds, 119.754 mph, 281 laps
4- Oriol Servia, #22 PKV Racing, 50.178 seconds, 119.742 mph, 288 laps
5- Justin Wilson, #1 Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing, 50.207 seconds, 119.673 mph, 269 laps
6- Franck Montagny, #7 Forsythe/Pettit Racing, 50.209 seconds, 119.668 mph, 207 laps
7- Bruno Junqueira, #19 Dale Coyne Racing, 50.507 seconds, 118.962 mph, 247 laps
8- Alex Figge, #29 Pacific Coast Motorsports, 50.521 seconds, 118.929 mph, 247 laps
9- Simon Pagenaud, #34 Conquest Racing, 50.702 seconds, 118.504 mph, 186 laps
10- Enrique Bernoldi, #8 Rocketsports Racing, 50.714 seconds, 118.476 mph, 255 laps
11- Paul Tracy, #3 Forsythe/Pettit Racing, 50.732 seconds, 118.434 mph, 179 laps
12- David Martinez, #28 Pacific Coast Motorsports, 50.736 seconds, 118.425 mph, 255 laps
13- Ernesto Viso, #4 Minardi Team USA, 50.800 seconds, 118.276 mph, 164 laps
14- Mario Moraes, #11 Dale Coyne Racing, 50.930 seconds, 117.974 mph, 241 laps

Rumor has it they are 3,4 or 5 seconds faster than the other series tests at Sebring.

Walker will have an announcement, others are grasping at straws, he said no to believe the rumors.

The only reason this thread has so many views is because the author keeps bumping it up.Anyone can do that. But it also shows how many care about Champ Car.

You should read today's "Murphy The Bear" for more interesting possibilities. In it, he states that Eric Bachelart has sent the second DP-01 back to storage and that he and "two others" from CCWS have retained Zak Brown and Just Marketing to pursue IRL sponsorship...no matter what any of us thinks, a lot of surprises, both good and bad, will occur between now and LB and thereafter...and as such, this thread has more teeth than any other for a reason.

[sanguin]

You should read today's "Murphy The Bear" for more interesting possibilities. In it, he states that Eric Bachelart has sent the second DP-01 back to storage and that he and "two others" from CCWS have retained Zak Brown and Just Marketing to pursue IRL sponsorship...no matter what any of us thinks, a lot of surprises, both good and bad, will occur between now and LB and thereafter...and as such, this thread has more teeth than any other for a reason.

A blogger who has been wrong many times with "rumors" about CC.

You should read this-

wrap-up from Sebring-

"Conquest Team Owner Eric Bachelart was very satisfied with the performance of his entire team throughout the test.

"We worked really hard these past four weeks just to get ready to run two cars. We have reorganized our engineering department and put a lot of work and effort into preparing this test the best way possible.

"We're happy to have had two talented drivers to help us out in preparing the season. They both did an excellent job. It's good to see Franck P1 after only four days in a Champ Car. With Simon, I don't think his performance reflects his potential. We worked on giving him a set-up and a car that he was comfortable with but we never quite got there with him. Now, we are going to go back to the shop and debrief and get ready for the Laguna Seca test. We have good sponsors behind us this year and the whole team has high ambitions. It's good to see that we could run at the top at this first test in Sebring."

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=279116&FS=CHAMPCAR

don't believe the bear.

[heelntoe]

A blogger who has been wrong many times with "rumors" about CC.

You should read this-

wrap-up from Sebring-

"Conquest Team Owner Eric Bachelart was very satisfied with the performance of his entire team throughout the test.

"We worked really hard these past four weeks just to get ready to run two cars. We have reorganized our engineering department and put a lot of work and effort into preparing this test the best way possible.

"We're happy to have had two talented drivers to help us out in preparing the season. They both did an excellent job. It's good to see Franck P1 after only four days in a Champ Car. With Simon, I don't think his performance reflects his potential. We worked on giving him a set-up and a car that he was comfortable with but we never quite got there with him. Now, we are going to go back to the shop and debrief and get ready for the Laguna Seca test. We have good sponsors behind us this year and the whole team has high ambitions. It's good to see that we could run at the top at this first test in Sebring."

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=279116&FS=CHAMPCAR

don't believe the bear.

Sorry, but I've heard from additional friends that chassis #29 has gone back...and frankly, I will follow Murphy's blog a heck of a lot closer than your blind enthusiasm at this juncture...as i stated earlier, a lot of things, both good and bad, are likely to happen between now and LB and thereafter that makes this thread a keeper.

[sanguin]

Sorry, but I've heard from additional friends that chassis #29 has gone back...and frankly, I will follow Murphy's blog a heck of a lot closer than your blind enthusiasm at this juncture...as i stated earlier, a lot of things, both good and bad, are likely to happen between now and LB and thereafter that makes this thread a keeper.

and I've heard the opposite. Of course you want to believe the worst. The bear blogger does not have a good track record when it comes to CC. He's an ALMS fan.

I'll believe the words from the owner himself.

also this-

"The Conquest Team is heading into a new direction this year with many new team members, including talented engineer Eric Zeto, and a core group that remains intact, with Team Manager Chris Mower , long-time engineer Don Bricker and others, the sixth year team has every intention of contending for the win, week in and week out. The Sebring test is only the beginning and a reflection of their potential as things got off to a very good start."

crow again?

[garyshell]

Chaparral and IndyCool, please get stated on the plan. Then we can all go to the kart track in Indy and celebrate with a little four wheeled aggression. I will probably get tossed for bumping but it will be fun anyhow.


I am in!!! Indy is only a 2 hour drive for me. Dates and times please!!!

Gary

[garyshell]

I would respectfully suggest to you, ChaimWitz, that some people would rather have two series from which to choose rather than being force fed one merged series that features Beaver Patrick going in circles in Nashville and Iowa. That's all. Simple as that. Not spite. Just don't care for the product being offered.


April,

In a perfect world that would be great. But in the real world of racing where Madison Ave. holds ALL of the cards, the "two series can co-exist" myth is just that, a myth. I posted a list of sponsor names last week from the IRL series last year. I limited the list to ones selling consumer related items. It was substantially different than the one for the OWRS. Why? 16th and Georgetown in Speedway Indiana, simple as that. Without consumer oriented advertising the series has no chance of gaining ANY popularity amongst anyone except hard core racing nuts. And there are just not enough of us to support (as in PAY FOR) one series, let alone two.

Gary

[heelntoe]

and I've heard the opposite. Of course you want to believe the worst. The bear blogger does not have a good track record when it comes to CC. He's an ALMS fan.

I'll believe the words from the owner himself.

also this-

"The Conquest Team is heading into a new direction this year with many new team members, including talented engineer Eric Zeto, and a core group that remains intact, with Team Manager Chris Mower , long-time engineer Don Bricker and others, the sixth year team has every intention of contending for the win, week in and week out. The Sebring test is only the beginning and a reflection of their potential as things got off to a very good start."

crow again?

As Eric is a friend, i will say only this...the #29 chassis has gone back, though he has two tubs and could run a two car team if he so chose. Bear's interest in ALMS means nothing as he covers multiple series...and if I had a dime for every time Mark C. has been wrong, I'd be retired. And next time, read carefully, as I wrote that "things are likely to happen between now and LB and thereafter that are both good and bad, which is why this thread is a keeper"...How does this express anything other than the truth...something your posts struggle with on a regular basis.

[sanguin]

Eric didn't hire Zak Brown-

"Conquest Racing has solidified its future in the Champ Car World Series with the signing of new marketing partner Opes Prime Group Ltd, an Australian based financial services provider. As a direct result of this new 2-year agreement, Conquest Racing is committed to entering two cars in the 2008 Champ Car World Series. Drivers and other marketing partner announcements will be announced in early 2008.
Additionally, the new agreement sees Opes Prime principle shareholder Anthony Blumberg acquiring an equity stake in the organization, providing the necessary capital investment to fuel the team's growth over the next two seasons."

http://www.conquestracing.com/champcar/

[heelntoe]

Eric didn't hire Zak Brown-

"Conquest Racing has solidified its future in the Champ Car World Series with the signing of new marketing partner Opes Prime Group Ltd, an Australian based financial services provider. As a direct result of this new 2-year agreement, Conquest Racing is committed to entering two cars in the 2008 Champ Car World Series. Drivers and other marketing partner announcements will be announced in early 2008.
Additionally, the new agreement sees Opes Prime principle shareholder Anthony Blumberg acquiring an equity stake in the organization, providing the necessary capital investment to fuel the team's growth over the next two seasons."

http://www.conquestracing.com/champcar/

Oh, right.

[Andrewmcm]

Eric didn't hire Zak Brown-

"Conquest Racing has solidified its future in the Champ Car World Series with the signing of new marketing partner Opes Prime Group Ltd, an Australian based financial services provider. As a direct result of this new 2-year agreement, Conquest Racing is committed to entering two cars in the 2008 Champ Car World Series. Drivers and other marketing partner announcements will be announced in early 2008.
Additionally, the new agreement sees Opes Prime principle shareholder Anthony Blumberg acquiring an equity stake in the organization, providing the necessary capital investment to fuel the team's growth over the next two seasons."

http://www.conquestracing.com/champcar/

Dated Dec 20th, 2007.

Just out of interest (and as a common rule of thumb when it comes to these things) - how much time has to pass before a quote is considered out of date? I'm not saying that this one is, but in theory one could pull a quote from the midsts of time to prove a point, even if it had no relevance in the current context.

[sanguin]

Dated Dec 20th, 2007.

Just out of interest (and as a common rule of thumb when it comes to these things) - how much time has to pass before a quote is considered out of date? I'm not saying that this one is, but in theory one could pull a quote from the midsts of time to prove a point, even if it had no relevance in the current context.

It's a 2-year contract.

[heelntoe]

It's a 2-year contract.

Which, in CCWS, is as good as TP :)

[ChaimWitz]

Here are the lap times from testing-

Feb, 2008:

1- "Fearless" Franck Perera, #24 Conquest Racing, 49.806 seconds, 120.636 mph, 205 laps
2- Graham Rahal, #2 Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing, 49.950 seconds, 120.288 mph, 238 laps
3- Alex Tagliani, #21 PKV Racing, 50.173 seconds, 119.754 mph, 281 laps
4- Oriol Servia, #22 PKV Racing, 50.178 seconds, 119.742 mph, 288 laps
5- Justin Wilson, #1 Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing, 50.207 seconds, 119.673 mph, 269 laps
6- Franck Montagny, #7 Forsythe/Pettit Racing, 50.209 seconds, 119.668 mph, 207 laps
7- Bruno Junqueira, #19 Dale Coyne Racing, 50.507 seconds, 118.962 mph, 247 laps
8- Alex Figge, #29 Pacific Coast Motorsports, 50.521 seconds, 118.929 mph, 247 laps
9- Simon Pagenaud, #34 Conquest Racing, 50.702 seconds, 118.504 mph, 186 laps
10- Enrique Bernoldi, #8 Rocketsports Racing, 50.714 seconds, 118.476 mph, 255 laps
11- Paul Tracy, #3 Forsythe/Pettit Racing, 50.732 seconds, 118.434 mph, 179 laps
12- David Martinez, #28 Pacific Coast Motorsports, 50.736 seconds, 118.425 mph, 255 laps
13- Ernesto Viso, #4 Minardi Team USA, 50.800 seconds, 118.276 mph, 164 laps
14- Mario Moraes, #11 Dale Coyne Racing, 50.930 seconds, 117.974 mph, 241 laps

Rumor has it they are 3,4 or 5 seconds faster than the other series tests at Sebring.

Walker will have an announcement, others are grasping at straws, he said no to believe the rumors.

The only reason this thread has so many views is because the author keeps bumping it up.Anyone can do that. But it also shows how many care about Champ Car.

Sanguin,
Thanks for posting the ChampCar testing times. Now, hopefully someone will come up with the real times from the IRL cars that were testing at Sebring so that we can have a proper comparison without your "rumor has it" tag.

Speaking of "rumor has it", I keep hearing Team Australia owes everyone money and that this is not a reflection upon D. Walker's character but is apparently the result of his sponsor not coming through as promised. Perhaps Mr. Gore is vacationing at the South Pole with KK and the folks from MediZone, Lexington Energy, 42 Below, RedBull and Motorock fueled by Visa. Let's hope that there is plenty of Sonny's BBQ down there! Hey, do Penguin's eat pulled pork?

Then there is your implication that this thread is being bumped up by the author. Thank you for likening me to Dr. Jack. He is my hero but then again, so are you. You have done more to keep this thread going than anyone.

I agree that people do care, but if you take a moment to read, rather than simply rebuff the comments here that don't fit your narrow agenda, they tend to care about the overall future of the sport rather than just about ChampCar. Who can blame them given the events of the past year? So, I think that this is sane and healthy given the circumstances. I also think that the large number of replies and views on "What Happens Next?" proves the point. So post your heart out Sanguin. Lets get this thread to 1000 replies and 40,000 views!

[gofastandwynn]

and I've heard the opposite. Of course you want to believe the worst. The bear blogger does not have a good track record when it comes to CC. He's an ALMS fan.



crow again?

Funny, you found him credible enough to plagiarize him the IRL forum...

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=419830#post419830


True, that may have changed. It's rumored that TG is sure Honda will leave after 2009.

http://murphythebear.com/blog/2008/02/05/73-audi-plans-saleens-late-fords-more/#more-92

[indycool]

sanguin, having an Australian financial services company do whatever it's going to do for Bachelart in CC doesn't prevent him from hiring Zak Brown as a sponsor hunter in IRL. Indeed, nothing prevents him from running cars in BOTH series.

And just what is an Australian financial services company going to do for Bachelart. Are they going to throw money at him? Or are they guaranteeing him their own money if they can't find someone else's money? And what do they expect to get out of a sponsorship like this?

As heelntoe indicated, things are going to change between now and opening weekend from statements made hopefully last year and reality now, both good and bad. They are going to change rapidly, both good and bad. Prepare for it.

[sanguin]

sanguin, having an Australian financial services company do whatever it's going to do for Bachelart in CC doesn't prevent him from hiring Zak Brown as a sponsor hunter in IRL. Indeed, nothing prevents him from running cars in BOTH series.

And just what is an Australian financial services company going to do for Bachelart. Are they going to throw money at him? Or are they guaranteeing him their own money if they can't find someone else's money? And what do they expect to get out of a sponsorship like this?


They are a marketing company ,did you read the article?

Really? as per who? a bear blogger? maybe Zak Brown should find sponsors for the series that hired him first,what has he done there?

[indycool]

sanguin, YOU read the article. It says "other marketing partners and drivers will be announced in '08" and "Opes principle (sic) Anthony Blumberg ....gets an equity stake in the organization."

Sound familiar? Where is Craig Gore today?

[sanguin]

sanguin, YOU read the article. It says "other marketing partners and drivers will be announced in '08" and "Opes principle (sic) Anthony Blumberg ....gets and equity stake in the organization."

Sound familiar? Where is Craig Gore today?

This is what I heard-

"Team Australia (Walker and Gore) are running two cars, and Will Power is already signed. Gore says no way to IRL."

[indycool]

And I hear Walker is waiting for a check from Gore.

[ChaimWitz]

This is what I heard-

"Team Australia (Walker and Gore) are running two cars, and Will Power is already signed. Gore says no way to IRL."

Sanguin, Thank you for reply number 982 to this thread. Only 18 more to go to get to 900. Keep it up! As for Mr. Gore, one wonders if he will have a say if he doesn't pay. Hey, I have a question for you? Why do they call the Surfer's race "Indy"?

[SoCalPVguy]

This is what I heard-

"Team Australia (Walker and Gore) are running two cars, and Will Power is already signed. Gore says no way to IRL."

SOURCE PLEASE !!!!!

Your statement above contradicts what you've posted over on another thread, which I've copied in as ...

Originally Posted by sanguin http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=419742#post419742)
From Mark C

"What's up with Team Australia? Much speculation has been made about Team Australia missing the Sebring test this past weekend, and whether their entry in Champ Car is at risk for 2008. The answer is no. Derrick Walker told AutoRacing1.com, "We will have a press release next week. Don't always believe what the rumors say."

NO WHERE IS THERE ANY "FACT" AVAIALBLE THAT SAYS WALKER RUNS TWO CARS. Nowhere is there any "fact" that says Walker will be in either IRL or CCWS. You need to wait for press release as Mr. Walker said. Maybe when Mr. Walker says "Don't always believe what the rumors say." - he's talking about YOU !!!

I am SO TIRED of you running your mouth on things you do not have the first clue about and presenting it as "fact" !!!

[sanguin]

SOURCE PLEASE !!!!!

Your statement above contradicts what you've posted over on another thread, which I've copied in as ...

Originally Posted by sanguin http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=419742#post419742)
From Mark C

"What's up with Team Australia? Much speculation has been made about Team Australia missing the Sebring test this past weekend, and whether their entry in Champ Car is at risk for 2008. The answer is no. Derrick Walker told AutoRacing1.com, "We will have a press release next week. Don't always believe what the rumors say."

NO WHERE IS THERE ANY "FACT" AVAIALBLE THAT SAYS WALKER RUNS TWO CARS. Nowhere is there any "fact" that says Walker will be in either IRL or CCWS. You need to wait for press release as Mr. Walker said. Maybe when Mr. Walker says "Don't always believe what the rumors say." - he's talking about YOU !!!

I am SO TIRED of you running your mouth on things you do not have the first clue about and presenting it as "fact" !!!

"I've heard" is a term used quite often by other posters, such as ChaimWitz and IC ,in fact he used it in his reply about Gore.

when the announcement is made ,we'll see who's right.

[ChaimWitz]

Sanguin, Thanks for post 896. Almost to 900. Indeed we will see who's right. Is one of the Amigo's going to write a check to Mr. Walker so that he can race this year?

[tbyars]

This is what I heard-

"Team Australia (Walker and Gore) are running two cars, and Will Power is already signed. Gore says no way to IRL."

You just assume Gore and Walker are still together. The last I heard, they were "sorting a few things out for 2008."

[tbyars]

Eric didn't hire Zak Brown-

"Conquest Racing has solidified its future in the Champ Car World Series with the signing of new marketing partner Opes Prime Group Ltd, an Australian based financial services provider. As a direct result of this new 2-year agreement, Conquest Racing is committed to entering two cars in the 2008 Champ Car World Series. Drivers and other marketing partner announcements will be announced in early 2008.
Additionally, the new agreement sees Opes Prime principle shareholder Anthony Blumberg acquiring an equity stake in the organization, providing the necessary capital investment to fuel the team's growth over the next two seasons."

http://www.conquestracing.com/champcar/

What in your quote indicates he didn't hire Brown? Could it be that he may also do an Indy-only program, or run another car in the IRL to get the TEAM incentive?

[tbyars]

And there's 900!

(Sorry ChaimWitz, I couldn't help myself!)

[ChaimWitz]

And there's 900!

(Sorry ChaimWitz, I couldn't help myself!)

Dammit, I was expecting that Sanguin would put this over 900. Well, there is always 1000 to shoot for. Maybe the speculation about who will be the 8th announced ChampCar driver for 2008 will get it there.

[Sandfly]

Just came in to see how bad and miserable things are and I see the usual CC bashing and negative speculation and prognostication continues. See Ya at LB.

[indycool]

Well, Sandfly, guess some so-called negative things have happened, so guess they get discussed.

[weeflyonthewall]

Nothing's changed. Heard Sebring was very positive from those there. Didn't some teams skip that event last year?

[timshag]

Well, Sandfly, guess some so-called negative things have happened, so guess they get discussed.

Well IC, I guess some so-called negative things were discussed,
but I guess we still had Spring Training anyway.

Hmmmmm....

[beachbum]

Nothing's changed. Heard Sebring was very positive from those there. Didn't some teams skip that event last year?All teams and 17 cars participated in 2007, although not in all sessions. That was considered a bit of a surprise at the time as some teams had minimal time to get the new cars prepared.

[ChaimWitz]

Nothing's changed. Heard Sebring was very positive from those there. Didn't some teams skip that event last year?

I heard that Justin Wilson got served by Dan P. and that NHL backed out of a cover photo shoot for a magazine. The absence of Walker was a big topic of discussion.

On a positive note, the cars did run much better than last year although there were three less than showed up in 2007. We also didn't get the news of losing a manufacturer this year! Now that is progress and the momentum is clearly building.

[Colt21]

Colt21 isn't even talking about a meeting. He is talking about a wedding. Not a figurative one either, a real one. His smug, "I know better than you" attitude, prevented him from being specific. He WANTED us to think he was privy to some special event that was going to change the course of the debate. He wasn't.

Gary

No, I'm just a bit ticked off at all the "expert" opinions being thrashed about by people who have never set foot in a paddock and talked to anyone.

My point was IF you were part of the series, you would know what was going on behind the scenes, including the private lives of those of...US who make this show happen.

We have no problem with people expressing their zeal for Champcar racing, but for those who have never put on a headset or turned a wrench, give it a break.

The bashing of those here who are part of the series has gone on for some time, and the regulars who presented factual information, were chased out or bashed for being a "doom and gloomer" when all they presened was facts.

The good news, is the product on the track remains pretty good. The dumb comments and bashing those with insight, not so good.

[Colt21]

EE, you're right in the respect that CART called them Indy cars before PPG came on board as series sponsor and formalized it. The CART series really had no name before PPG came on board and CART was trying to get the name CART known. PPG got use of the Indy Car name (and holding the series together with Indy as an overall financial umbrella) officially by also subsidizing the entire field as the largest corporate sponsor of the Indianapolis 500, plus a $100,000 pole award, plus starter's rings for the 33 drivers who started the race, among other things.

But the status of the term "Indy car," who could use it in the future and when, WAS decided as settlement of a lawsuit in December, 1996.


As EE indicated, the CART PPG world series became the PPG Indycar Series when an greement was reached by CART and IMS in the early 90's. PPG was a title sponsor before the name was changed to Indycar series. I can send you some old stickers if you like....

You keep indicating that PPG got to use this and that...PPG was just the series sponsor. PPG swas the title sponsor for CAR, then the PPG Indycar series, and did indeed have a pole award at Indy. PPG did not subsidize the entire feild...they meerly paid to be the title sponso0r. I'm not sure how many different ways we have to tell you that your facts are scrambled up.

When the IRL was formed, IMS wanted to suspend the agreement, which was done later than 1996...in fact I though it was 98 or so, becuase the agreement stipulated that the IRL could not use the name for five years. I know that the IRL did not use Indycar in 2001, and in fact I thought it was more like 2003/04.

[jimispeed]

What happens next???

A pretty damn good line up of drivers in an excellent racing series!!

[nanders]

When the IRL was formed, IMS wanted to suspend the agreement, which was done later than 1996...in fact I though it was 98 or so, becuase the agreement stipulated that the IRL could not use the name for five years.

It was 10 years, wasn't it? They couldn't use indycar.com or call the series Indycar, right?

[indycool]

Colt, you're still just plain inaccurate.

CART used the name Indy car for their cars right out of the box at their opener in Phoenix. Even though it went back and forth for a couple years whether CART would pay points for the Indianapolis 500 or not, and some CART people wanted to call it the CART PPG Indy Car World Series, it never was officially so because PPG bought the series rights and insisted otherwise.

While the points decision was the leverage CART used against PPG, PPG went to IMS and made the deal for the $100,000 pole award, $5,000 for each starter in the "500" and rings for all 33 starters in the "500," becoming the largest corporate sponsor of the "500." The $5,000 for each starter was similar to and formatted the same as the $3,000-plus PPG put in the purse for EVERY CART race at the time. And they announced at the time that points would be paid and they'd be PPG Indy Car World Series points.

The late Jim Chapman, representing PPG, outflanked CART's John Frasco, and CART couldn't gripe because PPG was giving it a TON of money. Some CART people, including Frasco, were livid because they wanted to bring IMS to its knees and make the "500" a CART race but had to stew in their own juices because Chapman's agreement in Indy fizzled out any leverage for a split. THEN came what some call CART's glory years.

Later, Chapman retired, then passed away and PPG Automotive Finishes head Fred Rhue retired and PPG eased out of the sport, but deserves all the credit for holding the sport together without a split in the '80s.

The use of the term "Indy car" was suspended for five years from EITHER series' use as part of the settlement of a lawsuit, I believe, in December of 1997. After that five-year period, the IRL could use it and CART could not as part of the settlement. That's when CART started developing the name Champ Car.

[heelntoe]

What happens next???

A pretty damn good line up of drivers in an excellent racing series!!

with names that couldn't get you laid in a whorehouse with $100 dollar bills taped to your forehead :)

[heelntoe]

No, I'm just a bit ticked off at all the "expert" opinions being thrashed about by people who have never set foot in a paddock and talked to anyone.

My point was IF you were part of the series, you would know what was going on behind the scenes, including the private lives of those of...US who make this show happen.

We have no problem with people expressing their zeal for Champcar racing, but for those who have never put on a headset or turned a wrench, give it a break.

The bashing of those here who are part of the series has gone on for some time, and the regulars who presented factual information, were chased out or bashed for being a "doom and gloomer" when all they presened was facts.

The good news, is the product on the track remains pretty good. The dumb comments and bashing those with insight, not so good.

Sorry Colt, but for quite a while now, the comments and "bashing" rarely has anything to do with the on track product (excluding RD and some other silly issues, like on board starters). I've never been allowed to be chased out by anyone here and have only been stunned by the new posters who defend CCWS blindly without ever even engaging in proper debate or exchange. And personally, while i had many friends on crews back when I was in the paddocks every day, it was NEVER a guy with a wrench or a headset (unless a team owner) that was allowed to know anything of substance behind the scenes. Indeed, we used to laugh that if you wanted to know something, the best source was Nadia or Wendy Gabers or some crew members girlfriend, who only learned of stuff from wandering and gossiping. I have no idea who's gettig married as I've been out of CCWS for a few years and would actually be interested to know, so from a guy who was in those paddocks, why don't you share with the rest of the class.

[HiWayStar]

with names that couldn't get you laid in a whorehouse with $100 dollar bills taped to your forehead :)

...Unlike that other series with international celebrities like Ed Carpenter & Hideki Mutoh?


GMAFB!!!

[nanders]

Colt, you're still just plain inaccurate.

CART used the name Indy car for their cars right out of the box at their opener in Phoenix. Even though it went back and forth for a couple years whether CART would pay points for the Indianapolis 500 or not, and some CART people wanted to call it the CART PPG Indy Car World Series, it never was officially so because PPG bought the series rights and insisted otherwise.

While the points decision was the leverage CART used against PPG, PPG went to IMS and made the deal for the $100,000 pole award, $5,000 for each starter in the "500" and rings for all 33 starters in the "500," becoming the largest corporate sponsor of the "500." The $5,000 for each starter was similar to and formatted the same as the $3,000-plus PPG put in the purse for EVERY CART race at the time. And they announced at the time that points would be paid and they'd be PPG Indy Car World Series points.

The late Jim Chapman, representing PPG, outflanked CART's John Frasco, and CART couldn't gripe because PPG was giving it a TON of money. Some CART people, including Frasco, were livid because they wanted to bring IMS to its knees and make the "500" a CART race but had to stew in their own juices because Chapman's agreement in Indy fizzled out any leverage for a split. THEN came what some call CART's glory years.

Later, Chapman retired, then passed away and PPG Automotive Finishes head Fred Rhue retired and PPG eased out of the sport, but deserves all the credit for holding the sport together without a split in the '80s.

The use of the term "Indy car" was suspended for five years from EITHER series' use as part of the settlement of a lawsuit, I believe, in December of 1997. After that five-year period, the IRL could use it and CART could not as part of the settlement. That's when CART started developing the name Champ Car.

They didn't use indycar.com for 10 years even though they owned it. IC I can't lay my eye on anything to back me up, but I'm thinking it was 10 years. It wasn't until after the 10 year period when they started calling it the Indy Car Series.

[nanders]

Colt, you're still just plain inaccurate.

CART used the name Indy car for their cars right out of the box at their opener in Phoenix. Even though it went back and forth for a couple years whether CART would pay points for the Indianapolis 500 or not, and some CART people wanted to call it the CART PPG Indy Car World Series, it never was officially so because PPG bought the series rights and insisted otherwise.

While the points decision was the leverage CART used against PPG, PPG went to IMS and made the deal for the $100,000 pole award, $5,000 for each starter in the "500" and rings for all 33 starters in the "500," becoming the largest corporate sponsor of the "500." The $5,000 for each starter was similar to and formatted the same as the $3,000-plus PPG put in the purse for EVERY CART race at the time. And they announced at the time that points would be paid and they'd be PPG Indy Car World Series points.

The late Jim Chapman, representing PPG, outflanked CART's John Frasco, and CART couldn't gripe because PPG was giving it a TON of money. Some CART people, including Frasco, were livid because they wanted to bring IMS to its knees and make the "500" a CART race but had to stew in their own juices because Chapman's agreement in Indy fizzled out any leverage for a split. THEN came what some call CART's glory years.

Later, Chapman retired, then passed away and PPG Automotive Finishes head Fred Rhue retired and PPG eased out of the sport, but deserves all the credit for holding the sport together without a split in the '80s.

The use of the term "Indy car" was suspended for five years from EITHER series' use as part of the settlement of a lawsuit, I believe, in December of 1997. After that five-year period, the IRL could use it and CART could not as part of the settlement. That's when CART started developing the name Champ Car.

CART trademarked Champcar, Champ Car World Series and several other variants in 1997 shortly after I had started using champcar.com. Andrew Graig asked me about it once and I explained that I had it registered before their trade mark. But they had intentions of using the name Champ Car for quite a while. What was it 2003 when they officially named the series Champ Car World Series?

[EagleEye]

Colt, you're still just plain inaccurate.

CART used the name Indy car for their cars right out of the box at their opener in Phoenix. Even though it went back and forth for a couple years whether CART would pay points for the Indianapolis 500 or not, and some CART people wanted to call it the CART PPG Indy Car World Series, it never was officially so because PPG bought the series rights and insisted otherwise.


PPG NEVER bought the series. You continue to ignore the facts, and are very confused. CART, was CART. Owned by the owners, with CART franhices being issued, right out of the box. PPG did NOT own anything.

PPG paid to be the title sponsor for the CART PPG series. The series, in an agreement with the speedway, changed the name to the PPG indycar Series, again still owned by CART.


While the points decision was the leverage CART used against PPG, PPG went to IMS and made the deal for the $100,000 pole award, $5,000 for each starter in the "500" and rings for all 33 starters in the "500," becoming the largest corporate sponsor of the "500." The $5,000 for each starter was similar to and formatted the same as the $3,000-plus PPG put in the purse for EVERY CART race at the time. And they announced at the time that points would be paid and they'd be PPG Indy Car World Series points..


If you look at PPG's involvement, they actually paid sponsorship and contigency money to teams at Indy, even before becoming the series sponsor for CART/Indycar. While a corporate sponsor for CART, they also were a Corporate sponsor for the Indy 500. Again, they never owend anything, nore did they try and leverage anything. TV ratings were good for CART and the 500, and they were marketing their products.


The late Jim Chapman, representing PPG, outflanked CART's John Frasco, and CART couldn't gripe because PPG was giving it a TON of money. Some CART people, including Frasco, were livid because they wanted to bring IMS to its knees and make the "500" a CART race but had to stew in their own juices because Chapman's agreement in Indy fizzled out any leverage for a split. THEN came what some call CART's glory years...[quote="indycool":3o3clam1]

The 500, was a CART race from 1979-1995. There were a few years there were no ponints and a few years with double points, but CART raced at Indy under USAC. The cars and teams, save for the Indy only teams, were from CART. There was no leveraging, or battles with PPG.

[quote="indycool":3o3clam1]Later, Chapman retired, then passed away and PPG Automotive Finishes head Fred Rhue retired and PPG eased out of the sport, but deserves all the credit for holding the sport together without a split in the '80s....[quote="indycool":3o3clam1]

The PPG got out after Fed Ex came in to pay more money for the title sponsorship.

[quote="indycool":3o3clam1]The use of the term "Indy car" was suspended for five years from EITHER series' use as part of the settlement of a lawsuit, I believe, in December of 1997. After that five-year period, the IRL could use it and CART could not as part of the settlement. That's when CART started developing the name Champ Car.[/quote:3o3clam1][/quote:3o3clam1][/quote:3o3clam1][/quote:3o3clam1]

I think you have this part correct, as CART was called Indycar, based on a mutual agreement with the speedway. After the split, the speedway did not continue the mutual licensing agreement, and CART agreed to stop using the term Indycar. And, after five years, bla bla...

Your original post indicated that PPG owned CART, and that CART was never called Indycar. Both those statements are false.

G'night.

[tbyars]

EE, I think you misread IC post. He never said PPG owned the series. I'm not sure where you made that connection.

And the Indy 500 was NEVER a CART race. Never. Not from 1979 to 1995. Not ever. CART NEVER sanctioned the race, USAC did, as you noted. When CART teams ran the 500, they did so under USAC sanction. For that event, they were USAC teams and cars, not CART teams and cars. Note that the 500 field during those years was made up, in part, of teams that were NOT CART teams. The cars carried USAC tech inspection stickers. They were governed by USAC rules. CART officials had absolutely NO governance at the Indy 500.

A number of drivers from various series raced at Daytona at the Rolex two weeks ago. That doesn't mean the race was anything but a Grand Am sanctioned race. The other series can't claim it.

[indycool]

nanders/EE,

To your points:

--The Indy Racing League and CART did NOT use the term Indy car to describe the cars or title their series for five years as settlement of a lawsuit. As far as your description of 10 years goes, the IRL did not use ICS until it formed the Indy Pro Series, THEN it called the IRL the Indy Car Series as both fell under the IRL banner.

--I never said PPG owned CART. I said PPG BOUGHT the title of the series as part of its sponsorship. There WAS no CART PPG series or PPG Indycar series. It was the PPG Indy Car World Series. Except for the Indianapolis 500, it was true that CART owned the series as a car owners organization. CART never sanctioned nor played any part in the Indianapolis 500, which was sanctioned by USAC. Indeed, the only matters discussed between CART and USAC officials were on safety and technical matters. CART never raced at Indy. CART's TEAMS raced at Indy as part of the series. CART itself, as an organization, was NEVER called Indycar.

--The "500" was a USAC race from 1979-1997, after which it became an IRL race. It was NOT a CART race.

--There were NONE of those years in which double points were paid, either when CART denied points for the "500" or when the PPG Indy Car World Series came together. USAC had a point system by which the number of points was based on the distance of the race. CART had several different point systems, but the PPG Indy Car World Series used those for all events. There were two, and perhaps three years in the early '80s where CART points were not paid until Mr. Chapman made the arrangements with IMS in 1984 to make the "500" a part of the series.

--I have no idea whether FedEx paid more than PPG or not. I DO know that PPG did it like Winston did with NASCAR and told CART and the Speedway it would continue to sponsor for awhile until they found another sponsor but they wanted to bow out.

--Yes, PPG was a smaller contingency sponsor at Indy prior to series sponsorship.

--I repeat: As part of a settlement of a lawsuit shortly after the split, BOTH series were not permitted to use the term Indy Car for five years.

[Chaparral66]

Chaparral and IndyCool, please get stated on the plan. Then we can all go to the kart track in Indy and celebrate with a little four wheeled aggression. I will probably get tossed for bumping but it will be fun anyhow.

In my my mind, the argument that the split ended ended in 2004 is off a bit just like the argument the OWRS incarnation of ChampCar carries on the traditions of American Open Wheel Racing. Both fall short of the truth.

I also think that The Amigos (except for one) are opportunistic "foreign fighters" who are keeping this tragic and devastating civil war going for reasons that have nothing to do with the best interests of the people in the nation in which the war is being fought. They still ride on a red tide of hate and fear because those are the only things left to save them. But the tide is going out now. The OWRS owners have all but lost this war yet they just won't admit it because some of them have checkbooks to match their needy egos. That won't go on forever. The truth is that the reasons for the split have shifted and the differences between what CART was and IndyCar is have diminished. Spite is all that keeps the war going now that the commercial proposition of the Amigo's vision for the Champ Car World Series has been largely invalidated.

On the subject of truth, I think it is interesting that the truth about the comparative lap times between an IRL car and a ChampCar at Sebring this past week has not surfaced. Someone should look deeper for the answer. I hear the lap times were very close. If indeed so, a few folks here won't be able to handle the truth because it punctures their elitist bubble. I looked back in this thread at the haughty and indignant reaction to the fact that the lap times for Champ Cars (the last time they ran) and Indy Cars at Mid Ohio and Milwaukee were virtually the same and I chuckled. Horror of horrors! Another reason to hate bites the dust.

What I am getting at, and Chaparrall66 has touched on it, is that we all have more in common than some want us to realize. I am neither a "ChampCar-World-Series-guy" nor an "IndyCar-Series-guy". I am a "One-Sport-Will-Be-Better-Than-This-Nightmare-Guy. Common sense tells me that I am not alone.

So, the point of this thread is what happens next. I hope that a wave of common sense and compassion for the fans sweeps over the warring factions in this sport. I also hope that the wave touches us here. We are all passionate nut cases on this board and this is proven by the things we focus on. The average fan could care less about the leaders, the politics or the the business side. They just want the sport to be better than it is and that starts with having one series with all the best drivers, teams and tracks. My feeling is that this will happen within a year because there is no good reason that this should go on any longer. We are down to a pathetic six US races (three of which likely pay little or no sanction fee), a 14-18 car field of spec racers and only seven confirmed drivers two months before Long Beach. This is not progress -- no matter how much happy spin Mark C. or Sanguin put out.

To me, the situation with Walker is a sign that this is not making sense any longer. I don't buy all the explanations. He is a racer of the first order and he has a driver and team that are true championship contenders. His absence at Sebring says to me that he either has no money to go racing or that he has lost faith in ChampCar. Think about what happens next if either or both of those things are true.

Also reflect on the number of posts and replies to this one thread. From my perspective, the nearly nine hundred replies and over 36,000 views gives a very strong clue as to what everyone is really thinking.

Excellent post, CW. Plenty of food for thought here.

[Cart750hp]

What I don't get, or maybe I don't need to get, is that how these fanatics are so "not into" merger with the IRL for the sake of the motorsport when even the loyalist in CC such as Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser, and team owners have put their anti-IRL agenda aside just to save the sport. I probably feel the same way that they would rather ran with TG than going another joke series with the amigos. Am I a pro-IRL? Of course not. But I'm just like pro-merger with mostly everyone here, the media, the manufacturers, sponsors, promoters and the people who actually associated in CC and IRL.

Ah, I think I get it....because if there's a merger, these fnatics will have nothing to cheer or chant about. What would happen to the CC fanatics forum? I'm here keeping an eye on that one. Oh by the way, they removed that infamous introduction coz either we make fun of it a lot or maybe finally the moderator came to his senses. Nah, I doubt it. These guys are too old to change their views.

[ChaimWitz]

What I don't get, or maybe I don't need to get, is that how these fanatics are so "not into" merger with the IRL for the sake of the motorsport when even the loyalist in CC such as Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser, and team owners have put their anti-IRL agenda aside just to save the sport. I probably feel the same way that they would rather ran with TG than going another joke series with the amigos. Am I a pro-IRL? Of course not. But I'm just like pro-merger with mostly everyone here, the media, the manufacturers, sponsors, promoters and the people who actually associated in CC and IRL.

Ah, I think I get it....because if there's a merger, these fnatics will have nothing to cheer or chant about. What would happen to the CC fanatics forum? I'm here keeping an eye on that one. Oh by the way, they removed that infamous introduction coz either we make fun of it a lot or maybe finally the moderator came to his senses. Nah, I doubt it. These guys are too old to change their views.

Great post. It looks like it may be closing time at the ****wagon Bar & Grill. I wouldn't want to be there when they turn on the lights.

One series is the only way. Business is like nature. Only the swift or the strong survive. No amount or spin or hate can change that.

I do wonder what our pal Sanguin will do if ChampCar goes the way of Motorock. I think the Amigo's won't have room for everyone on their G5s.

[Jacques]

Great post. It looks like it may be closing time at the ****wagon Bar & Grill. I wouldn't want to be there when they turn on the lights.

One series is the only way. Business is like nature. Only the swift or the strong survive. No amount or spin or hate can change that.

I do wonder what our pal Sanguin will do if ChampCar goes the way of Motorock. I think the Amigo's won't have room for everyone on their G5s.

Looking forward to 0.9 ratings, eh ? How much can spin or hate change the fact that the IRL has had 12 years of declining tv ratings and attendance ? Some of you, me thinks, are fooling yourselves and will be greatly disappointed .... will Cheever and Menard have room for you ? Will you join the Amigos, then ? Or will you move to Nascar when Vasser, Tracy, NHL et al move there too ?

[ChaimWitz]

Looking forward to 0.9 ratings, eh ? How much can spin or hate change the fact that the IRL has had 12 years of declining tv ratings and attendance ? Some of you, me thinks, are fooling yourselves and will be greatly disappointed .... will Cheever and Menard have room for you ? Will you join the Amigos, then ? Or will you move to Nascar when Vasser, Tracy, NHL et al move there too ?

Jacques, Actually, I look forward to something other than product confusion and the constant spew of delusional BS from the fanatics on either end of The Split spectrum.

Okay. We get it, you think that the IRL will fail. Who knows? They very well might but that does not offset the fact that the CART/ChampCar business model has already failed once and is apparently about to do so again.

Go ahead, get mad if you want to but it won't change the truth that the OWRS era was a huge disappointment and will most likely end up as a smoking crater on the global sporting landscape.

What happens next is not about racing or hurt feelings. It is about business, or more precisely, the lack of it in the ChampCar World Series. The death certificate will probably state the cause of death as: "Total loss of credibility caused by chronic arrogance, a prolonged lack of honesty and operating a business while under the influence of extremists."

There will be a brief moment of silence followed by The March Of The Penguins and life will go on for most of us who actually care more about the sport than we do about getting even with someone's grandson in Indiana.

[ChaimWitz]

Here is the latest from Robin Miller on the What Happens Next front:

Is Open-Wheel Peace Finally at Hand?

Written by: Robin Miller
02/07/2008 - 10:45 PM
Indianapolis, Ind.

All together now? The Indy 500 could benefit from an influx of teams and drivers, but the benefits of a unified series would extend far beyond the 500. (LAT photo)n » More Photos
The long, costly war between Champ Car and the Indy Racing League is close to being over and, for the first time since 1995, there could be one open wheel series for 2008. But there’s still one major hurdle to overcome to make this long-awaited union a reality.

SPEED has learned that Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe, the co-owners of Champ Car, have reached an agreement with IRL founder Tony George to race together this season.
As reported by SPEEDtv.com recently, George offered the Champ Car ownership free Dallara chassis and Honda engines to any CC team that signs up for the full season in addition to receiving $1.2 million per car as part of the IRL’s new TEAM program. Additionally, the Champ Car races at Long Beach, Edmonton and Surfer’s Paradise, Australia would be added to the ’08 IndyCar Series schedule.

However, it’s not quite that easy.

The IRL race at Motegi, Japan is scheduled to run April 18-20 which is the same weekend as the Long Beach Grand Prix. Jim Michaelian, the longtime LBGP president and general manager, says the most successful street race in North America is locked into its date and cannot be moved due to prior contract commitment with the Long Beach Convention Center (which anchors the track).

Motegi, owned by Honda of Japan, also faces some challenges in re-scheduling so Honda’s Robert Clarke, Champ Car’s Dick Eidswick, Kalkhoven and George are desperately trying to find a solution.

“It’s as close as it’s ever been to being together, but we don’t know if we can get across the goal line,” said George on Thursday evening. “But no one is giving up yet.”

Added Kalkhoven: “Both sides want this to happen very much and we’re working on it.”

Supposedly, the Motegi people were agreeable to moving back one week, which is currently the date for the IRL race at Kansas City. The ISC-owned facility reportedly declined the request because it’s already a sellout for the NASCAR/IRL package.

Clarke, the former leader of Honda Performance Development who tried to put the two sides together in 2006 along with Mario Andretti, might have to travel with George to Japan this weekend to try and find a solution while Eidswick works on Champ Car’s options.

Drivers, mechanics and owners in Champ Car learned of this amalgamation after returning from a test last week at Sebring, Fla. As expected, most were happy to hear about unification even though it means their current Panoz chassis would be rendered show cars.

“It’s not a bad deal but you’ll still need some money,” said Derrick Walker, whose Indy-based team started in 1990. “You have to have two car configurations (oval and road course), the crash damage is higher with ovals and it’s a big fat schedule. It’s going to be a rough old ride for our Champ Car teams because we don’t have the familiarity with the Dallaras but the bottom line is that it’s a great gesture to put this thing together.”

Jimmy Vasser, who is part owner of PKV Racing, echoed Walker’s sentiments.

“There’s been a lot of silence lately so, if this is true, this is what needs to happen,” said the 1996 CART champion. “It’s a very good day for motor racing.”

Paul Newman was ecstatic upon hearing of the proposal. “I feel like I died and wrent to heaven,” said the co-owner of Champ Car’s winningest team along with Carl Haas and Mike Lanigan. “This is the best news I’ve heard in a long time.”

Some smaller Champ Car owners like Eric Bachelart were shocked to hear of such a plan at this late date.

“Are you kidding me?” said Bachelart, whose Indy-based Conquest Racing just signed rookie Franck Perera. “I just spent a million dollars on a new car and spare parts and this news hurts because I know the value of money. I’m all for one series but I wish it would be 2009.”

It’s believed there are over 50 Dallara chassis, new and used, available to be dispersed among the CCWS teams.

Since winning CART’s assets in bankruptcy court in 2004, Kalkhoven and Forsythe have spent millions on television, promoting races, propping up teams and payroll. They also own Cosworth and Pi, plus the rejuvenated Atlantic series. It’s not certain what would happen with the Atlantic series as the IRL has its own feeder system with the Indy Pro Series. But there were 24 cars at Wednesday’s Atlantic test in Sebring and it would make a strong support race for any series.

George has also spent millions on his league and this union would assure Indy-car racing of stronger fields, deeper competition and hopefully a much larger entry list at the Indianapolis 500.

It also means young stars Graham Rahal and Marco Andretti can now race on the same track along with Justin Wilson and Dan Wheldon while veterans Helio Castroneves, Tony Kanaan and Paul Tracy would be reunited.

“I think we’d all be happy if we’re back together and the fans would be happy to see all the best drivers in one race,” said Tracy, the 2003 CART champion who hasn’t competed at Indy since his controversial second place finish in 2002.

“We’ll be at a disadvantage to the IRL teams the first year but such is life. Getting everybody back under one roof is what needs to happen.”

[ChaimWitz]

Here is the latest from Robin Miller on the What Happens Next front:

Is Open-Wheel Peace Finally at Hand?

Written by: Robin Miller
02/07/2008 - 10:45 PM
Indianapolis, Ind.

All together now? The Indy 500 could benefit from an influx of teams and drivers, but the benefits of a unified series would extend far beyond the 500. (LAT photo)n » More Photos
The long, costly war between Champ Car and the Indy Racing League is close to being over and, for the first time since 1995, there could be one open wheel series for 2008. But there’s still one major hurdle to overcome to make this long-awaited union a reality.

SPEED has learned that Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe, the co-owners of Champ Car, have reached an agreement with IRL founder Tony George to race together this season.
As reported by SPEEDtv.com recently, George offered the Champ Car ownership free Dallara chassis and Honda engines to any CC team that signs up for the full season in addition to receiving $1.2 million per car as part of the IRL’s new TEAM program. Additionally, the Champ Car races at Long Beach, Edmonton and Surfer’s Paradise, Australia would be added to the ’08 IndyCar Series schedule.

However, it’s not quite that easy.

The IRL race at Motegi, Japan is scheduled to run April 18-20 which is the same weekend as the Long Beach Grand Prix. Jim Michaelian, the longtime LBGP president and general manager, says the most successful street race in North America is locked into its date and cannot be moved due to prior contract commitment with the Long Beach Convention Center (which anchors the track).

Motegi, owned by Honda of Japan, also faces some challenges in re-scheduling so Honda’s Robert Clarke, Champ Car’s Dick Eidswick, Kalkhoven and George are desperately trying to find a solution.

“It’s as close as it’s ever been to being together, but we don’t know if we can get across the goal line,” said George on Thursday evening. “But no one is giving up yet.”

Added Kalkhoven: “Both sides want this to happen very much and we’re working on it.”

Supposedly, the Motegi people were agreeable to moving back one week, which is currently the date for the IRL race at Kansas City. The ISC-owned facility reportedly declined the request because it’s already a sellout for the NASCAR/IRL package.

Clarke, the former leader of Honda Performance Development who tried to put the two sides together in 2006 along with Mario Andretti, might have to travel with George to Japan this weekend to try and find a solution while Eidswick works on Champ Car’s options.

Drivers, mechanics and owners in Champ Car learned of this amalgamation after returning from a test last week at Sebring, Fla. As expected, most were happy to hear about unification even though it means their current Panoz chassis would be rendered show cars.

“It’s not a bad deal but you’ll still need some money,” said Derrick Walker, whose Indy-based team started in 1990. “You have to have two car configurations (oval and road course), the crash damage is higher with ovals and it’s a big fat schedule. It’s going to be a rough old ride for our Champ Car teams because we don’t have the familiarity with the Dallaras but the bottom line is that it’s a great gesture to put this thing together.”

Jimmy Vasser, who is part owner of PKV Racing, echoed Walker’s sentiments.

“There’s been a lot of silence lately so, if this is true, this is what needs to happen,” said the 1996 CART champion. “It’s a very good day for motor racing.”

Paul Newman was ecstatic upon hearing of the proposal. “I feel like I died and wrent to heaven,” said the co-owner of Champ Car’s winningest team along with Carl Haas and Mike Lanigan. “This is the best news I’ve heard in a long time.”

Some smaller Champ Car owners like Eric Bachelart were shocked to hear of such a plan at this late date.

“Are you kidding me?” said Bachelart, whose Indy-based Conquest Racing just signed rookie Franck Perera. “I just spent a million dollars on a new car and spare parts and this news hurts because I know the value of money. I’m all for one series but I wish it would be 2009.”

It’s believed there are over 50 Dallara chassis, new and used, available to be dispersed among the CCWS teams.

Since winning CART’s assets in bankruptcy court in 2004, Kalkhoven and Forsythe have spent millions on television, promoting races, propping up teams and payroll. They also own Cosworth and Pi, plus the rejuvenated Atlantic series. It’s not certain what would happen with the Atlantic series as the IRL has its own feeder system with the Indy Pro Series. But there were 24 cars at Wednesday’s Atlantic test in Sebring and it would make a strong support race for any series.

George has also spent millions on his league and this union would assure Indy-car racing of stronger fields, deeper competition and hopefully a much larger entry list at the Indianapolis 500.

It also means young stars Graham Rahal and Marco Andretti can now race on the same track along with Justin Wilson and Dan Wheldon while veterans Helio Castroneves, Tony Kanaan and Paul Tracy would be reunited.

“I think we’d all be happy if we’re back together and the fans would be happy to see all the best drivers in one race,” said Tracy, the 2003 CART champion who hasn’t competed at Indy since his controversial second place finish in 2002.

“We’ll be at a disadvantage to the IRL teams the first year but such is life. Getting everybody back under one roof is what needs to happen.”

[Cart750hp]

Hahahaha! (starter, don't pm me on this one again)

I'm just laughing hard as reading this article that ChaimWitz posted. Man, o man.

How's that fanatic feeling now? RM should've interviewed the fanatics just to put a stir in his article. There's no way the merger is going to happen if the fanatics disagrees! How can KK, GF, PG, DE, PNL, CH, DW, EB, JV are all agreeing to this, right fanatics? How about the emotions that you guys been putting for the past years? You guys should attack RM for his article. He's lying, right?

[ChaimWitz]

Now is the time for us to forgive each other and come together. NASCAR has a 14 lap lead and we won't catch them and pass them if are all fighting about the past. It about time we got back to the future.

[Cart750hp]

Now is the time for us to forgive each other and come together. NASCAR has a 14 lap lead and we won't catch them and pass them if are all fighting about the past. It about time we got back to the future.

What the? Did you just came from church? I thought you went to Costco?

JK, ChaimWitz.

[garyshell]

What the? Did you just came from church? I thought you went to Costco?

JK, ChaimWitz.

OK, give it a rest already. Chaimwitz is right, now is NOT the time for this. It looks like we may finally get what we wanted (albeit with "...king George" at the helm... sigh). What's the point of rubbing the pollyanna's noses in it? Time to move on and see some racing with full fields, and sponsors, and fans, and noise, and smells, ohhhhhhhhhhhh I can;t wait to go back to MidOhio and see open wheel cars again!

Gary

[Cart750hp]

OK, give it a rest already. Chaimwitz is right, now is NOT the time for this. It looks like we may finally get what we wanted (albeit with "...king George" at the helm... sigh). What's the point of rubbing the pollyanna's noses in it? Time to move on and see some racing with full fields, and sponsors, and fans, and noise, and smells, ohhhhhhhhhhhh I can;t wait to go back to MidOhio and see open wheel cars again!

Gary

Gary, I was just kidding dude!

Hey, you just reminded of the one nice track that I missed watching on TV..........Mid-Ohio. Who's not looking forward to a unified series??

[ChaimWitz]

What the? Did you just came from church? I thought you went to Costco?

JK, ChaimWitz.

Didn't you know that they now have a Church inside Costco? It is right next to the NASCAR Casket section, just behind the stack of discounted Panoz DP-01s. I also saw plenty of cheap Sam Hornish and Dario Franchitti IRL collectibles. I went there to buy some whine for all my friends here but I got distracted by the OWRS toasters that were on sale.

[Cart750hp]

Didn't you know that they now have a Church inside Costco? It is right next to the NASCAR Casket section, just behind the stack of discounted Panoz DP-01s. I also saw plenty of cheap Sam Hornish and Dario Franchitti IRL collectibles. I went there to buy some whine for all my friends here but I got distracted by the OWRS toasters that were on sale.

A-ha. Gotcha. Always find myself in the frozen section in most times....

[garyshell]

Gary, I was just kidding dude!

Hey, you just reminded of the one nice track that I missed watching on TV..........Mid-Ohio. Who's not looking forward to a unified series??


Ok, then make it obvious. Use smilies, add "HA! Ha! Ha!" anything to make it obvious. It's fence mendin' time, my friend.

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

A-ha. Gotcha. Always find myself in the frozen section in most times....

I hear KK chills out there. It must remind him of his time with the Penguins.

[Jacques]

Jacques, Actually, I look forward to something other than product confusion and the constant spew of delusional BS from the fanatics on either end of The Split spectrum.

Okay. We get it, you think that the IRL will fail. Who knows? They very well might but that does not offset the fact that the CART/ChampCar business model has already failed once and is apparently about to do so again.

Go ahead, get mad if you want to but it won't change the truth that the OWRS era was a huge disappointment and will most likely end up as a smoking crater on the global sporting landscape.

What happens next is not about racing or hurt feelings. It is about business, or more precisely, the lack of it in the ChampCar World Series. The death certificate will probably state the cause of death as: "Total loss of credibility caused by chronic arrogance, a prolonged lack of honesty and operating a business while under the influence of extremists."

There will be a brief moment of silence followed by The March Of The Penguins and life will go on for most of us who actually care more about the sport than we do about getting even with someone's grandson in Indiana.
I am not angry, at all. Unlike some of you, I never made this personal. Look at all the recent taunting in the posts; who is the one who is angry now ?

I just think you guys are in for a shock and a huge disappointment. That is my opinion. Unfortunately, it is hard to have an opinion that does not agree with yours or your group because the name calling and the ridicule begins to fly.

How does this show that you care more about the sport than I do ?

[ChaimWitz]

I am not angry, at all. Unlike some of you, I never made this personal. Look at all the recent taunting in the posts; who is the one who is angry now ?

I just think you guys are in for a shock and a huge disappointment. That is my opinion. Unfortunately, it is hard to have an opinion that does not agree with yours or your group because the name calling and the ridicule begins to fly.

How does this show that you care more about the sport than I do ?

Please re-read my post, I didn't write that I care more about the sport than you do unless you are suggesting you agree with exactly what I wrote: "life will go on for most of us who actually care more about the sport than we do about getting even with someone's grandson in Indiana."

[indycool]

Gary, doggone it, we agree again! :) Maybe "peacetime" would bore some posters. Not me. My congratulations to the "big guys" for getting this far because it's been a long, long way and I hope it becomes a done deal.

Hallelujah!

Autosport are carrying the story this side of the 'pond'.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65044

It's basically a re-write of Miller's article, with the same quotes.

[indycool]

Yes, it's spread everywhere....crash.net and yahoo sportsticker have picked it up as well as all the forums.

[heelntoe]

Ok, then make it obvious. Use smilies, add "HA! Ha! Ha!" anything to make it obvious. It's fence mendin' time, my friend.

Gary

Ok, so now we should be able to schedule that drink! And, it looks like my hearing of PN being so pissed off that nothing was getting done might have been true as his comment I just read over this news is "I feel like i died and went to heaven"! You think Sanguin and Mike15 are having a wake over a comment from the guy that would never go to the IRL no matter what?

[ChaimWitz]

Ok, so now we should be able to schedule that drink! And, it looks like my hearing of PN being so pissed off that nothing was getting done might have been true as his comment I just read over this news is "I feel like i died and went to heaven"! You think Sanguin and Mike15 are having a wake over a comment from the guy that would never go to the IRL no matter what?

Hey, where is Sanguin and Mike15? It is very strange that they aren't here accusing Robin Miller of lying? I wonder why? On second thought, they could be locked in the denial chamber being hosted by Paper over on the ****wagon site.

[sanguin]

Yes, it's spread everywhere....crash.net and yahoo sportsticker have picked it up as well as all the forums.

They all copied RM's story.

Bamboozled again.

[ChaimWitz]

They all copied RM's story.

Bamboozled again.

Oh really? So now are you, "Paper" and Paulie G-String going to try to stop this?

[pvtjoker]

They all copied RM's story.

Bamboozled again.

Thats it and RM made up ALL of those comments too. Right?

I'm assuming you're a Ron Paul supporter too.

[sanguin]

Thats it and RM made up ALL of those comments too. Right?


RM tells them his story and gets their comments, none of them seemed to have a clue about anything, because it isn't true.

[pvtjoker]

Hey, where is Sanguin and Mike15? It is very strange that they aren't here accusing Robin Miller of lying? I wonder why? On second thought, they could be locked in the denial chamber being hosted by Paper over on the ****wagon site.


If this goes through 'paper' may be placed on suicide watch.

[pvtjoker]

RM tells them his story and gets their comments, none of them seemed to have a clue about anything, because it isn't true.

Maybe they should learn to say "no comment" or just plain refuse to talk to him since, according to you, he makes up comments/stories in EVERY article he authors.

[heelntoe]

RM tells them his story and gets their comments, none of them seemed to have a clue about anything, because it isn't true.

Yeah, right. Dude, you should check in with Britney.

[Andrewmcm]

Why hasn't Robin Miller been sued for every penny he owns? And why is Curt Cavin suggesting things are afoot in his Indystar blog if it isn't true?

[Jacques]

Please re-read my post, I didn't write that I care more about the sport than you do unless you are suggesting you agree with exactly what I wrote: "life will go on for most of us who actually care more about the sport than we do about getting even with someone's grandson in Indiana."

Who wanted to get even with TG ?

I have said it before and I will say it again : I do not believe this is the solution to OW's problems. By concentrating so much on CC's issues, people have failed to see all that the IRL is struggling with. You think it is better or that it will be better over there, but it is not. And I do not think that it will get better.

It became personal to some of you. Even among yourselves. But it was not so for me.

All this means is that 11 CC tracks will die. In 2 years, another 8 IRL tracks will die. In the end, we will have 8 ovals and 8 road races, more or less. In other words : semi-CART 94, but with no fans.

You call that a solution ?

[indycool]

Oh, c'mon, Jacques. Of those 11 CC tracks they would lose, how many are track rentals, co-promotes or self-promotes and how many of them make money?

And it's been pointed out elsewhere that Milwaukee, Detroit, The Glen, Homestead, Mid-Ohio, St. Pete, etc., are FORMER sites of CART and/or CC races, so it could be said that those are coming back.

[Jacques]

Oh, c'mon, Jacques. Of those 11 CC tracks they would lose, how many are track rentals, co-promotes or self-promotes and how many of them make money?

And it's been pointed out elsewhere that Milwaukee, Detroit, The Glen, Homestead, Mid-Ohio, St. Pete, etc., are FORMER sites of CART and/or CC races, so it could be said that those are coming back.

I think it is like splitting a baby in two in order to give a half to each of the parents.

If no one watched CC or IRL race at Milwaukee, why would they watch them together ? Same thing applies to St. Pete, WG or Homestead.

I'll repeat myself : it was never personal for me. I don't "hate" TG. I just believe that a lot of you are going to be terribly disappointed in the next 2-3 years. But, if you want to merge, go ahead and merge. It didn't help you when Ganassi, Penske, Toyota, Honda et al moved over years ago... what makes you think it will be different this time ?

[Andrewmcm]

If no one watched CC or IRL race at Milwaukee, why would they watch them together ? Same thing applies to St. Pete, WG or Homestead.

Hmm let's see - no confusion as to who races in which series, no wondering why the person who won the Indy 500 isn't at Milwaukee. No wondering what happened to so and so who raced for that team that doesn't seem to exist any more.

Long story short. No general punter confusion. People can watch it without having to care about some ridiculous political fight between series. The sum is greater than the parts.

[Jacques]

Hmm let's see - no confusion as to who races in which series, no wondering why the person who won the Indy 500 isn't at Milwaukee. No wondering what happened to so and so who raced for that team that doesn't seem to exist any more.

Long story short. No general punter confusion. People can watch it without having to care about some ridiculous political fight between series. The sum is greater than the parts.

How many people care about the split when they don't even know about OW ?
How many IRL fans watch a CC race or vice versa ?

Do you actually think that people don't watch LB because the AGR driver who won St. Pete is not racing there ? Do you think people would watch Cleveland knowing that the Indy500 winner is going to be there ? If that were the case, why don't they watch Sonoma or WG since the Indy500 winner IS going to be there ? Is it because Bourdais is not racing at Sonoma ? Who know who Bourdais is, much less what series he races on ?
Sorry, I don't buy that.

[cartpix]

Ah, I think I get it....because if there's a merger, these fnatics will have nothing to cheer or chant about. What would happen to the CC fanatics forum? I'm here keeping an eye on that one. Oh by the way, they removed that infamous introduction coz either we make fun of it a lot or maybe finally the moderator came to his senses. Nah, I doubt it. These guys are too old to change their views.

I don't think you have to worry about that. There's going to be mass suicide, over this, over there.

Jeff

[ChaimWitz]

I think it is like splitting a baby in two in order to give a half to each of the parents.

If no one watched CC or IRL race at Milwaukee, why would they watch them together ? Same thing applies to St. Pete, WG or Homestead.

I'll repeat myself : it was never personal for me. I don't "hate" TG. I just believe that a lot of you are going to be terribly disappointed in the next 2-3 years. But, if you want to merge, go ahead and merge. It didn't help you when Ganassi, Penske, Toyota, Honda et al moved over years ago... what makes you think it will be different this time ?

Fair question. I think the answer is simple. Positive energy attracts and negative energy repulses. The majority of fans who have had an interest in the sport want to see it whole again. They also want to see who wins when the best of the best are together in one race and in one series. The competitive environment is where value is created in sport and when there is positioning duplication or brand confusion it is very difficult to create identity differentiation and the stature that comes with it. The cars, drivers teams and events all become commodities. Unity will not change everything overnight but it will change the conversation from hopeless to hopeful for everyone but the die hard fanatics. The only way to attract new fans and new investment in the sport is to move past this ugly argument.

As for you not having an emotional position in this, I respectfully disagree. The tone and content of your posts and the fact you posts here suggests otherwise.

Okay, shoot me. I admit that I do have a deep emotional stake in the sport. This has been my life and I care deeply about what happens next. I loved what CART was and I love the Indy 500. Those two loves should not be mutually exclusive.

I will also admit I have little enthusiasm for The Amigos and fanatics who foolishly viewed them as saviors. It should be pointed out that I had the same lack of enthusiasm for the people on the other side who drove the split in the beginning. I have simply had enough of flim flam men.

[bblocker68]

I went over to the Crappies and said I came right over when I saw a mushroom cloud out of my window and wondered if the site blew up.

I'm sure my post was counted down, lol.

[cartpix]

Who wanted to get even with TG ?

I have said it before and I will say it again : I do not believe this is the solution to OW's problems. By concentrating so much on CC's issues, people have failed to see all that the IRL is struggling with. You think it is better or that it will be better over there, but it is not. And I do not think that it will get better.

It became personal to some of you. Even among yourselves. But it was not so for me.

All this means is that 11 CC tracks will die. In 2 years, another 8 IRL tracks will die. In the end, we will have 8 ovals and 8 road races, more or less. In other words : semi-CART 94, but with no fans.

You call that a solution ?

WOW! Is that a direct quote from Kriskin or Nostradomus. Since when can you see the future. To use some of that psycobabble that is so tredy, now, you are projecting, here.

Jeff

[garyshell]

I don't think you have to worry about that. There's going to be mass suicide, over this, over there.

Jeff


Jim Jones is preping a big punch bowl right about now...

Gary

[cartpix]

Jim Jones is preping a big punch bowl right about now...

Gary

Wasn't that Kool-Aid too.

I'm a baaaad man - Nicholas Cage

Jeff

[nanders]

I went over to the Crappies and said I came right over when I saw a mushroom cloud out of my window and wondered if the site blew up.

I'm sure my post was counted down, lol.

Barry they have softened a little lately on the count down thing ... the sure sign that cracks are forming in their Armour.

[bblocker68]

I bet you're right.

Now what can we do to keep Kansas on the schedule??? Get in your car and start protesting!!!!

[indycool]

Kansas is fine on the proposed merged schedule. ISC couldn't change it because it's a doubleheader with the trucks and the truck schedule is set.

[Chaparral66]

Kansas is fine on the proposed merged schedule. ISC couldn't change it because it's a doubleheader with the trucks and the truck schedule is set.

Besides, why would the France family want to accommodate open wheel? They had AOWR right where they wanted them, in chaos and completely subject to NASCAR.

[gofastandwynn]

Hot of the presses

George off to Japan in pursuit of unification (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080208/SPORTS0107/802080490/1247/SPORTS)




George off to Japan in pursuit of unification
Motegi race date appears to be key to uniting IRL, Champ Car
By Curt Cavin
[email:2az957qt]curt.cavin@indystar.com[/email:2az957qt]

Indy Racing League founder Tony George is headed to Japan today for what could be a key step in ending a two-decade-old split of open-wheel racing in the U.S.

George is hoping to encourage officials at the Twin Ring Motegi circuit to move the IRL's April 19 race to another weekend in order for the league to include the Long Beach (Calif.) Grand Prix and other Champ Car World Series races in its 2008 IndyCar Series schedule.

The Long Beach race, which has been held annually by Champ Car since 1984, has a contract with its city to stage the season-opening race on April 20.

If Motegi officials agree to move their race, perhaps to the fall, the dominoes to a reconciliation could fall quickly.

George, who is being accompanied on the trip by IRL presidents Terry Angstadt and Brian Barnhart, plus former Honda executive Robert Clarke, is optimistic about a resolution. But he is mindful of other failed reunification efforts.

"It seems that every time we've been close some new obstacle gets thrown in the way," said George, who started the IRL in 1996 as an alternative to Champ Car.

George and Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven spoke by phone on Friday, but Kalkhoven said the time he requested was merely fact-finding in nature in the wake of an Internet report insisting a deal had been reached.

"There's no deal, and no deal's been offered," Kalkhoven said.

"I sent Tony a text (message) to find out what is going on," he said.

Kalkhoven said the conversation was brief. George only informed Kalkhoven that he is bound for Japan.

"(Partner Gerald Forsythe) and I are enthusiastic to get this done; the question is, can we get it done?" Kalkhoven said. "We thought we were close before (in 2006), so we'll see."

Both sanctioning bodies are based in Indianapolis, but the IRL would be the leader of a unified series, and the equipment used would initially be the IRL's.

Kalkhoven said he and Forsythe accept the fact they won't have an ownership stake if a combined series materializes.

"As long as we both come out OK, whatever that is, we're OK," he said.

Kalkhoven and Forsythe own several companies that operate in open-wheel racing, including the promotion of existing Champ Car races, Cosworth engines and the Pi computer system used in the cars.

The latest round of talks began last fall when Champ Car officials met with George about making the switch to the IRL.

George offered to assist Champ Car's teams in acquiring cars and engines if they could prove viability to operate them for the full season.

Putting together a schedule and resolving existing contracts appears to be at the heart of the current round of discussions.

The IRL has agreements in place with 16 groups to stage races this season, and George wants to include as many of Champ Car's 14 events as makes sense. Currently, there are 10 weekends in which both series have races, including one in May during qualifications for the Indianapolis 500.

George noted the difficulty of pulling everything together, comparing it to failed discussions that occurred in 2004 when the assets of Champ Car's parent company (CART) went to U.S. Bankruptcy Court.

"That was in January, and it was too late in the year to make all these changes to the schedule," he said. "You just can't go changing all the dates around when you have contracts in place."

It is not clear how many of the 30 races scheduled by Champ Car and the IRL have signed contracts.

The IRL has been discussing the possibility of an international package of races after its regular season ends Sept. 7 at Chicagoland Speedway. Trips to Japan and a few of Champ Car's key events, such as Surfers Paradise in Australia and Mexico City, both coveted by the IRL, could be included.

Barnhart said George is aggressively working toward a resolution.

"I've never seen him work harder on this than he has in the past couple three weeks," he said.

News of George's trip to Motegi sparked another round of excitement in the open-wheel racing community.

"This has the potential to be the biggest, most important motor sports story of the year because it is so important to the fans," Texas Motor Speedway president Eddie Gossage said in a statement released by the track, which has hosted IRL races since 1997.

Kalkhoven asked that decision-makers be left alone to find common ground.

"We were very close to a deal a couple of years ago and everything got leaked," he said "Then instead of the key people working it out, everybody gets involved in the discussion.

"If people are trying to help unification, silence is the best thing."

[tbyars]

Gofast, a lot of us have felt today that if indeed TG actually went "wheels up" on this trip, the consolidation was a done deal.

[ChaimWitz]

KK and GF do not "own" the Long Beach Grand Prix. They purchased the rights to it and those rights don't last forever. I think we should file the following under "what happens next":

Contract extension sought for Long Beach GP
On Tuesday the Long Beach, CA City Council will consider extending Long Beach's agreement with the Grand Prix Association that is set to end in 2010. The proposal calls for extending the agreement to 2015, with an optional extension to 2020 with council approval, according to a city report.
Michael Conway, the city's public works director, said that the city has traditionally offered the association 10-year extensions.

"But because there's so much development going on along the waterfront in downtown Long Beach, we were uncomfortable with a 10-year extension without being able to look at this in a shorter period of time," he said.

The Grand Prix Association had asked the city for the contract extension to get a jump on future races.

"We've had a great partnership with the city for the last 33 years and we are looking forward to extending that relationship into the future," Michaelian said. "And it's also very important for us as we have conversations with sponsors and with television and other entities, to be able to schedule out well into the future.

"And that's one of the reasons why we're talking to the city about extending our contract at this time, so that we would be in a position whereby we can commit the company and begin to formulate plans that extend beyond 2010," he said.

The new agreement also includes several other changes clarifying the type of race that can take place in Long Beach, allowing an extra half-day of free events, and requiring the Grand Prix to pay about $100,000 more to the city in expense reimbursements than it has in the past, the report says.

The races normally take place on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday. In recent years, a Thursday evening event has also been added along Pine Avenue.

The new agreement calls for future Thursday afternoon events offered free or at reduced prices, Conway said.

"That Thursday afternoon event is meant to be embracing of the entire city, not the downtown area, to allow school kids and others to come down and enjoy the race free of charge," he said.

The impacts of the Thursday event will be reviewed by the city and area businesses after 2009 to determine whether it will continue, the city report says.

According to the report, the new agreement also opens up the Grand Prix to Champ Car, Indy Racing League and other officially sanctioned racing series, but says that if the Grand Prix Association "fails to conduct an annual quality race" approved and certified by certain racing entities, the city can terminate the agreement.

The race would cost the association about $100,000 more this year under the agreement because of increased costs for permitting and administration fees, Conway said. The association would have to pay $519,558 to reimburse the city for the costs.

Long Beach also could make some extra money from future races under another new provision of the agreement that would give the city 15 percent of any sponsorship package that the city presents or refers to the Grand Prix Association.

[ShiftingGears]

Wasn't that Kool-Aid too.

I'm a baaaad man - Nicholas Cage

Jeff

That reminds me - I saw ConAir a few days back. Utterly terrible movie, and Cage had the worst accent ever!

[SoCalPVguy]

Making a statement like that on Monday evening would be a pretty empty threat I would suggest. How many teams would be prepared to listen to such a statement and jump on board for the 2008 season?

Like you say, it sounds like a desperate plea from a die-hard CCWS fan rather than a sound idea that will work. Because it won't.

I know Michael Conway, I'll call him Monday to see what he's heard about the "merger" and present status of Champ Car and if that in anyway affected the proposed lease term

[indycool]

Gary, I can't believe it, but we absolutely agree again. What good would a "lame duck" series do?

[ChaimWitz]

Well, I never thought "what happens next" would include hell freezing over. This was recently posted on Autoracing1.com:

"IRL Champ Car merger talks heat up UPDATE #4 We are opening this rumor back up to 'strong' from 'false' despite the statement from Kalkhoven and Forsythe that they are planning for the Champ Car season to go forward in 2008. We spotted Derrick Walker being interviewed on Indianapolis TV and in the background was his new Dallara IRL car. If the latest rumors are to be believed, four Champ Car races will be added to the IRL schedule in 2008 because they do not conflict with IRL races - Long Beach (if Motegi can be moved), Edmonton (if moved by one week), Mexico City and Australia. If true this means there are going to be a lot of lawsuits thrown at Champ Car and OWRS for cancelling races that had signed contracts.
In addition, we wonder what it means for Panoz and for the Champ Car teams that have so much inventory invested in the Panoz and the Cosworth engines. More lawsuits. And what about Champ Car's signed contract with ABC and ESPN. Still more lawsuits. And what about the Atlantic series? What will become of that? We suspect that would be retained.

We are not lawyers, but the only way we see this coming down for 2008 is if OWRS files for bankruptcy (and soon) and they let everyone sue the bankrupt company. They probably won't get much.

Despite the Champ Car fans being thoroughly disappointed with this rumored outcome, the good news is that peace will finally be at hand and open wheel racing in this country can start the long process of healing and closure.

We support a final end to the silliness of the split, and so should all the fans. 2008 will be a transition year because it is happening in the 11th hour. The sure to be bitter Champ Car fans can look forward to 2009 and 2010 when more of the best parts of Champ Car (such as the races in Toronto and Road America, and the turbo engine, etc.) can be rolled into the Indy Racing League, hence making the reunited series even stronger. We suspect some of the weaker teams from both sides will fold and some of the weaker IRL races (such as Iowa, Watkins Glen, Sears Point, etc.) will be dropped in favor of some of the stronger Champ Car races that cannot make it on the 2008 schedule. Mark C."

[indycool]

Boy, is that a 180 in a short period of time.

[ChaimWitz]

Boy, is that a 180 in a short period of time.

This is a sure sign to me that The Champocolypse is upon us.

This was recently posted on Autoracing1.com:

In addition, we wonder what it means for Panoz and for the Champ Car teams that have so much inventory invested in the Panoz and the Cosworth engines. More lawsuits.

Mark C."[/I]

That alone makes no sense.

Teams in other series regularly change equipment. F3 teams get a new chassis every year (I worked on a team that had 5 new chassis delivered in the course of a season once, all to replace ones that had been damaged).

Chip Ganassi got through about 10 Dallara chassis in one season, if I recall, not too long ago. Both Ganassi & Rahal also, for example, swapped from Panoz to Dallara's a couple of years back.

The World Series by Renault teams have just had to purchase the new (for 2009) car, as have GP2 teams.

Teams change equipment. Always have.

Teams change series. Always have.

To suggest that the teams have invested in Panoz chassis and therefore having to get a new chassis for a different formula would result in lawsuits is stupid.

[indycool]

???????

[Chaparral66]

That alone makes no sense.

Teams in other series regularly change equipment. F3 teams get a new chassis every year (I worked on a team that had 5 new chassis delivered in the course of a season once, all to replace ones that had been damaged).

Chip Ganassi got through about 10 Dallara chassis in one season, if I recall, not too long ago. Both Ganassi & Rahal also, for example, swapped from Panoz to Dallara's a couple of years back.

The World Series by Renault teams have just had to purchase the new (for 2009) car, as have GP2 teams.

Teams change equipment. Always have.

Teams change series. Always have.

To suggest that the teams have invested in Panoz chassis and therefore having to get a new chassis for a different formula would result in lawsuits is stupid.

What you have here is a situation where Champ Car teams, many of whom don't have a lot of sponsorship, having just boaught new cars, now are faced with having to do that again, and having to get to know these cars in a short space of time. That's both expensive and time consuming. That's why I continue to say 2009 would be a better time for this "merger" to happen. Gives the sport time to promote itself, and teams time to court new sponsors for a reconstituted series.

[ChaimWitz]

What you have here is a situation where Champ Car teams, many of whom don't have a lot of sponsorship, having just boaught new cars, now are faced with having to do that again, and having to get to know these cars in a short space of time. That's both expensive and time consuming. That's why I continue to say 2009 would be a better time for this "merger" to happen. Gives the sport time to promote itself, and teams time to court new sponsors for a reconstituted series.

Chaparral66, I think the reality is that there is simply no money to run the 2008 ChampCar season. The Amigos have obviously turned off the tap of dollars and lies so it will never happen. And why on earth would Tony George want to support a competitor that is a (twice) proven business loser? The consolidation plan that has apparently been offered includes low cost, or free cars and engines plus cash to ease the teams' move over to the Indy Car Series so that appears to me to be the last best option to make our sport whole again. It won't make everyone happy but it is better that it happens now rather than never. What the sport needs now is peace, unity and stability -- the sooner the better. In racing and in life, those who succeed make the best of the situations they encounter.

[ChaimWitz]

Has anyone seen Sanguin today? I wonder why he is not here defending ChampCar and the Amigos against all logic in this dire hour of OWRS history? Has he been influenced by Mark Cippolini's 180 on the subject of a 2008 unification?

[gofastandwynn]

Latest update from Robin Miller on Speed News:

TG and Robert Clarke are 2-3 hours from a meeting with Honda of Japan to move Motegi.

Robin also said no matter what KK has said in the last few days, when RM talked to him on Thursday KK said that he and Forsythe were all for TG running the series, but the big thing they needed was Long Beach.

Walker has an IRL car in his shop, he dosen't have a sponsor and Craig Gore owes him 1.5 million from last year.

Carl Haas has told his staff he is not sure what series they will run yet, and when Robin talked to Carl today he said he "would know in a couple of days" and may switch merger or not.

On KK saying the deal could collapse because of RM's story, RM remided him that in 2006 it was a cc owner that leaked the story and the story will not have any effect on the Honda people in Japan. The he says in about a 24 hours period said "Gerry and I are together" then "There is no deal", then " it is not going to happen", the " it is based on motegi", so KK must be confused.

[indycool]

For those of you in the Indy area, RM and Derrick Walker are scheduled to be on Dave Furst's half-hour sports show on Channel 6 at 11:30 p.m. Indy time tonight.

[Chaparral66]

For those of you in the Indy area, RM and Derrick Walker are scheduled to be on Dave Furst's half-hour sports show on Channel 6 at 11:30 p.m. Indy time tonight.

Here's hoping you give us the 411 on that chat, IC.

[indycool]

Okay, Miller said the meeting was going on at Motegi as they spoke, called it the biggest story in this kind of motorsport in a decade and that Indy would be much better because of it, he excoriated KK for saying the media was at fault in the merger talks by reporting it. He also thought that the IRL contingent that went to Motegi had several plans to present to resolve the issue and Honda could come out of it looking like heroes if everyone over there made music.

Walker was generally PC about things and said the CC people tried hard to make the series right and he'd run both series if he could find sponsorship. They showed B-roll of a Dallara in his shop that he said was loaned to him by Kent Baker and said he'd been working on an IRL program for some time. It was said to be the car that P.J. Jones drove at Indy last year.

Both seemed quite positive toward the melding of the series and felt it was going to happen now. Miller said initially when he talked to Paul Newman, Newman was thinking it was better for '09, but later seemed to agree that it'd be better now.

[ChaimWitz]

It is good for the Amigos that the deal is almost done with Tony George because the word filtering back from my sources in Europe is that one (or more) of the European dates is shaky and could come off the calendar. Since Assen seemed to be fairly successful crowd-wise, and since I hear that Jerez is strictly a track rental deal, that must mean it's Zolder. Champ Car recently replaced the promoter (and they're suing him, I hear!) and the word is the new guy wants out, having been unable to raise the sponsorship and being unsure about what Champ Car will be bringing. If true, this would mean both Assen and Jerez are stand-alone flyaways with no event to share the costs with. Which domino will fall next? It sounds like 2007 is beginning to happen all over again but this time there is no spin or bluster that can suspend disbelief. To quote Dr. Jack, "What happens next?"

[Cart750hp]

It is good for the Amigos that the deal is almost done with Tony George because the word filtering back from my sources in Europe is that one (or more) of the European dates is shaky and could come off the calendar. Since Assen seemed to be fairly successful crowd-wise, and since I hear that Jerez is strictly a track rental deal, that must mean it's Zolder. Champ Car recently replaced the promoter (and they're suing him, I hear!) and the word is the new guy wants out, having been unable to raise the sponsorship and being unsure about what Champ Car will be bringing. If true, this would mean both Assen and Jerez are stand-alone flyaways with no event to share the costs with. Which domino will fall next? It sounds like 2007 is beginning to happen all over again but this time there is no way out. To quote Dr. Jack, "What happens next?"

I won't be surprised this time CC promoters are backing out. Although the talks in Japan will end up 2009, I have no idea how CC could go on for another season (2008). 12 schedules? 12 cars? Who's paying and who's interested? It's probably not a bad idea to just fold 2008 away so some CC teams can start moving and attend few IRL races. That by 2009, they should be competitive. Don't tell me, Atlantics could be the temporary replacement for IRL/CC for this year.

Bourdais, the last Champ Car champion.

[ChaimWitz]

When Sadam Hussein was being pulled out of his hole, he said "I am Sadam Hussein, President of Iraq and I want to negotiate..." With every day that passes, Kevin Kalkhoven sounds more and more like Sadam Hussein and Steve Johnson like Baghdad Bob: they are either absolutely clueless about their circumstances or they both have enormous amounts of chutzpah. I think it is the latter.

This RM item below on SpeedTV belongs in this very long thread. The question now really is: what happens next?

Champ Car Heading for Bankruptcy?
Written by: Robin Miller
02/12/2008 - 07:18 AM
Indianapolis, Ind.

George remains "optimistic" a deal can be struck for 2008.

Tony George was still optimistic about a plan to unify open wheel racing for 2008 following his trip to Japan to try and reschedule the race at Motegi to accommodate Long Beach.

But, by the time George returns to Indianapolis, there might only be one series standing anyway.

The word on the street late Monday was that Champ Car plans to file bankruptcy within the next 24-48 hours which, effectively, will end the 12-year war in open wheel.

Steve Johnson, president of Champ Car, was asked about the bankruptcy rumor on Monday evening and responded in an email: “I have not been informed and we have been hearing the bankruptcy rumor for 18 months.”

However, at least one definitive sign pointed to the end of a series that began as CART in 1979 and was re-titled Champ Car after Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerry Forsythe took it over in bankruptcy court in 2004.

Pat Caporali, hired a few weeks ago as CC’s new director of public relations, reported for her first day of work on Monday. But she was informed it might be a good idea to try and get her old position back with Chip Ganassi because there would be no work for her.

Other employees were reportedly told to cease working on 2008 projects and some began cleaning out their desks.

It’s not known whether a bankruptcy proceeding was part of the plan to have the Indy Racing League assume control of open wheel. George has proposed free cars, engines and $1.2 million to any and all CC teams able to fund themselves for a full season.

He also agreed to add Long Beach, Edmonton and Australia to the ‘08 schedule and possibly one more venue so it might be necessary for Champ Car to bankrupt in order for those tracks to strike new deals with George.

Kalkhoven and Forsythe promote the race at Long Beach, in addition to Toronto and Portland while Mike Lanigan, who co-owns cars with Paul Newman and Carl Haas, is the promoter at Houston and Cleveland. Forsythe also co-owns Mexico City.

But the repercussions could come from Laguna Seca, Elkhart Lake, St. Jovite, Canada, Belgium, Spain and The Netherlands. None of those tracks would have races in ‘08 in a unified series.

Besides those tracks and people employed at Champ Car, others figured to lose out in a bankruptcy would be outside contractors. Carl Haas has some $2 million worth of parts for the Panoz chassis, which will be made obsolete because the IRL uses Dallaras.

One contractor, Dan D. Jones & Associates, has already filed a law suit against Champ Car for non payment. After the new Panoz cars developed massive fuel leaks and re-fueling problems during the first three races of 2007, Jones was hired to overhaul and save the fuel systems—which he did.

But, according to the suit filed in Indianapolis superior court last week, Jones has never been paid one penny of the $300,000 he’s owed. He’s hired Jim Voyles to try and recoup the money.

As for George’s trip to the Far East, he and Honda’s Robert Clarke met with Motegi management to try and figure out an alternative date or some kind of plan to allow Long Beach to run April 18-20 (also Motegi’s date).

Kalkhoven has been adamant there will be no deal without Long Beach on its original date.

“I am optimistic but there are plenty of complications that could knock it off-line,” said George via email from Japan. “There are plenty of things to consider, Motegi and Long Beach are just part of it.

“Everyone expresses a desire to push to make it happen and that’s where the effort is being applied at the moment.”

[Chaparral66]

Any news outlet in Indianapolis get any soundbites with Tony George when he got back from Japan?

[indycool]

Nope.....haven't heard any.

[ChaimWitz]

The item below from AR1 suggests to me that all reason has been lost is the panic and delusion filled place called ChampCar. Anything that OWRS is involved with has the potential to become used food and this flat stinks of it. The Amigos are the ones seeking relief via TG and other means from this Chernobyl of a business that they created. The promoters and most teams and ChampCar employees all know that they did not have "a reasonable chance of expecting employment in 2008" based upon the realities of 2007. Everyone else with common sense knows this too. It is also pretty dammed clear to me that the Amigos were all watching out for Number One, not their promoters, teams or employees. This has not been a business since the OWRS has owned it. It has been a money losing, tax write off ego hobby and any discovery would prove it. Nice try MarkC.

IRL and Honda may get pulled into Champ Car lawsuits Should Champ Car file for bankruptcy to facilitate a merger as the rumors suggest, one can expect the lawsuits to fly. But it's not just the promoters who could sue, but also CCWS teams (and their employees) who have to shutter because their CCWS subsidy ends. Team employees will be put out of work, when they had a reasonable expectation of employment for 2008.
In addition to CCWS being a defendant, the IRL and Honda could also both be defendants.

Some attorney would love to start a class action lawsuit on those affected (promoters, teams, employees), not to forget the small group of fans who bought airline tickets, booked rooms, requested and had approved vacation time for races cancelled and/or moved.

The plaintiffs' argument would be that if Tony George and Robert Clarke had not been involved with trying to create a unified series at such a late, late date for 2008 season, then CCWS would not have filed for bankruptcy prior to the 2008 season.

Effectively, it could be argued that Tony George and Robert Clarke (on behalf of the IRL and Honda) committed tortuous interference for the expressed benefit of their employers.

How concrete or tenuous the plaintiffs' argument would be argued in the court.

Stated differently, if Tony George had shutdown any discussions after Robin Miller's mid-January article, it is problematic whether CCWS would file bankruptcy.

[ChaimWitz]

Interestingly, the item from the rumors section of AR1 quoted in my post above was pulled shortly after I noticed it. Curious.

[indycool]

That doesn't hold any water. All of CC's deals for '08 are its own. If CC goes bankrupt, then CC answers for it. If CC has deals with people and can't run, CC answers for it. There isn't any tortious interference involved. The IRL and Honda aren't causing CC to go bankrupt. CC may cause CC to go bankrupt.

[garyshell]

That doesn't hold any water. All of CC's deals for '08 are its own. If CC goes bankrupt, then CC answers for it. If CC has deals with people and can't run, CC answers for it. There isn't any tortious interference involved. The IRL and Honda aren't causing CC to go bankrupt. CC may cause CC to go bankrupt.


Tell that to the lawyers wringing there hands with glee over the prospect of making some $$$$ over this matter. They will attempt to make a case for this with "...king George's" offer to the OWRS teams, no matter how carefully crafted or delivered that offer was. I am not saying they have a leg to stand on, because that has NEVER stopped a lawyer who smelled blood in the water.

Gary

[indycool]

That may well be true, as long as they can make some $$$$. But a lot of those any more are on contingency.............the GOOD lawyers get some bread up front.

[ChaimWitz]

Today is The Silence of the Scams. My sense is that the end is indeed near. Could what happens next finally be about to happen?

[heelntoe]

Today is The Silence of the Scams. My sense is that the end is indeed near. Could what happens next finally be about to happen?

Funny...I have to say that the delayed effect of two wealthy guys realizing that they've lost a few hundred million since the last BK and likely have only a few options to gain some of the losses back...has set in! For KK, the notion of selling CCWS to TG for a profit is long gone...For GF, the idea of gaining back some of his losses from MPH...also long gone. The notion of putting more good money after bad has caused a rift larger than the Grand Canyon. KK's done...and for those of you that think he's got the same money as GF, he doesn't...not even close. The next few weeks will be very weird...no matter what fence you sit on.