What Happens Next?

[ChaimWitz]

Sanguin, you don't strike me as a true fan. Instead, with every post you remind me of the ugliness that destroyed CART from within and the reason why the OWRS era and 2007, in particular, has come out so badly. This is painful given how much I enjoyed CART and had anticipated a rebrith with Champ Car. It seems you have now appeared from nowhere to demand that we all play the fool like you and not recognize the obvious fact that the Champ Car World Series isn't going to turn out well in the end and that the end may now be approaching. There was probably a propaganda enthusiast like you in a certain bunker in Berlin making sure everyone thought correct thougts before the little house painter took the coward's exit. This will be the kind of mini legacy you leave here. Cheering while others are contemplating the loss and consequence of what has just happened. It is not in the least bit attractive and accomplishes the opposite of what you intend.

Racing is ultimately a battle between realists. I think the whole point of this thread has been to realistically discuss what happens next. You have hijacked this conversation and it is too bad the rest of us have indulged you so I suggest we all stop playing your game.

Good luck on Fantasy Island Mr. Sanguin. You are a modern version of poor little Tattoo yelling "da plane... da plane" in the delusional hope that Kevin Kalkhoven and his Gulfstream will swoop down and save you from your self-inflcted humiliation.

As for what I have posted here, many of my "unfounded" rumors have credible sources just like those who told me last year that Denver was a joke, China was a disaster in the making, Phoenix would never happen and the Vegas GP would not be Fueled by Visa but would instead set a new standard for money lost on an American street race.

Indeed, the IRL has no bearing on the OWRS plan because it is clear that those who own ChampCar do not have a plan nor do they choose to deal with reality. They would rather do as you do and try to sell a delusional fantasy wrapped in falsehoods.

The question I have after following this conversation from the begining is what happens next here? Do we all just post in circles around Sangin's illogical arguments or do we stay on the subect?

[beachbum]

Well, here is my opinion.
Once upon a time, there was a poster who used the screen name Zero.

tbyars, every user forum on any topic (not just racing forums) has at least one Zero. They should take the adult beverage out of their sippy cup and step away from the keyboard before adult supervision takes it away.

They are never wrong, attack any opinion not their own, always need the last word, and generally make fools of themselves. Since they hide behind the anonymity of a screen name they seem to think they can act like an expert and no one will know. The Zeros of the world think they are so smart because eventually no one contradicts them anyone and they can sometimes dominate a "discussion".

But every forum, regardless of topic, has people who do know what is going on in that particular arena. Eventually, the people who know just go away or shut up, just as they ignore the noisy child yelling "wolf". That forum becomes stale and useless until the Zero finds another message board somewhere where they can take their "act", spew more useless drivel, and annoy more people.

Without an audience, they have no purpose.

[SeanMockery]

This thread had degenerated into nothing but back and forth arguments between posters, about posters. Let me remind everyone about the "ignore" function. It works well and you should use it if someone's posts bother you.

If this stuff continues, I'm going to start handing out penalties for people.



Oh please, oh please don't do that! I'm really enjoying watching this debate from the sidelines. Besides his opinion on the current state of Champ Car, I'm waiting for Sanguin's (aka Zero, Cache, etc.) opinion on the Iraq War, universal health care and U of Michigan's football team. :eek:

[Andrewmcm]

Ok, back on topic.

If CCWS is going to go after the European market with a (currently) spec racing series, focusing mainly on street circuits and road races, how does that make CCWS distinct from say GP2 and A1GP? They really need to bring ovals back in order to differentiate themselves from the rest of the major European series, otherwise CCWS's grand scheme will get lost with the rest of the F1 feeder series.

Continuing with the GP2 and A1GP line, how does the European and worldwide tv packages of those two series compare to that of CCWS? Are teams subsidised in those series, and do the series/teams operate at a profit? I don't know the answer to those questions but if they do not, how does CCWS expect to buck that trend?

[deadsquirrel]

Ok, back on topic.

If CCWS is going to go after the European market with a (currently) spec racing series, focusing mainly on street circuits and road races, how does that make CCWS distinct from say GP2 and A1GP? They really need to bring ovals back in order to differentiate themselves from the rest of the major European series, otherwise CCWS's grand scheme will get lost with the rest of the F1 feeder series.

Continuing with the GP2 and A1GP line, how does the European and worldwide tv packages of those two series compare to that of CCWS? Are teams subsidised in those series, and do the series/teams operate at a profit? I don't know the answer to those questions but if they do not, how does CCWS expect to buck that trend?

I believe that GP2 is full of 'non-name' drivers who pay to race. A1GP is a Mid-East sheikh/prince owned/funded series, that can't be on a commercial footing.

As someone who only really became aware of AOWR when 'our Nige' whooped everyone in '93, but then enjoyed the series (CART) from then on, and then Champ Car when the change happened, (personally I never thought much of IRL - they seemed to race on strange ovals!) I still think the only sane thing to do is get to a combined series ASAFP; however I can't think how this could ever happen

[garyshell]

I would love to know they are in the black, nothing would make me happier.

Gary



If CC being solvent makes you mad, I can't help you.

I guess you didn't read my earlier post did you? We're done.

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

Could this rumor posted below on AR1 be what happens next? Despite all the OWRS owner group's spin to the contrary and bashing of Laguna Seca's crowds, I have heard that San Jose is a big money loser and is on shaky ground. On second thought, most of California is on shaky ground! It is funny how Mark Cippolini flip flops his spin to suit whatever favors ChampCar. One day San Jose is the model of success and now the next day it is dissed as he justifies the potential move back to Laugua Seca, which was ridiculed for not promoting. I wonder what kind of boffo sanction fee SCRAMP will pay or will it be another track rental/self promo deal?

"Champ Car might move SJ race to Laguna Seca
Rumor has it that Champ Car may axe the San Jose street race from its schedule after three years and that Champ Car could move the race back to Laguna Seca. The Mickey Mouse San Jose track was too small from the outset to make for good racing and too small to erect enough grandstands with viewing areas conducive to the paying customer's enjoyment."

[DrJackMiller]

Okay, I am back from the cyber dead but only to share the following from Gordon Kirby who does a remarkable job of summing up American open wheel racing's current plight and the prospect of San Jose being canceled later this week. Here is the link to today's GK offering:

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2007/the_way_it_is_no89.html

So what happens next?

[David St. Hubbins]

Tap had a song called "Back from the Dead"

The last bit in Kirby's article only painted what we knew has been going on for the last decade: the France family planned a monopoly of American racing. Possibly (cue B-movie-type mad scientist) the world! But I don't see nascar knocking F1 out of the way....

Still and all, they've done a good job of exploiting the split (and putting on my tinfoil hat, causing it so they could exploit it), and it's nearly certain that they won't let the irl get too big.

What happens next? irl completes its morph into CART II, and the France family buys TG out so they can be the Vince McMahon of the racing world. nascar becomes WWRE, Inc. (World Wide Racing Entertainment).

After that, they go after that punk, Rupert Murdoch.

[Chaparral66]

Okay, I am back from the cyber dead but only to share the following from Gordon Kirby who does a remarkable job of summing up American open wheel racing's current plight and the prospect of San Jose being canceled later this week. Here is the link to today's GK offering:

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2007/the_way_it_is_no89.html

So what happens next?

Honestly, DrJack, how many times do you have to ask that? We've all answered that one way or another. What exactly are you looking for with that question and what has been lacking in any answer you have seen? Any answer you get is going to be speculation since whe don't know what will happen until it happens.

Perhaps my answer (among all the answers I and others have given you) is "What should happen next?"

That was a good column by the very solid and consistent Gordon Kirby. France's lasy comment is telling when he warns that Indy Car racing could get ruined. Of course, what he didn't say is equally important, that NASCAR would benefit from the split, smart man that France was. But even he couldn't have anticipated this nightmare.

That said, as for what happens next, I will repeat what I've said elsewhere on this forum site: You saw a preview of what happens next at Montreal during the Busch race at the Villenueve roadcourse. Drivers in NASCAR from all sorts of foriegn backgrounds, racing one another in an exciting even, and, unlike Formula 1, running hard, braking at turns, and passing one another at many different points along the track. NASCAR is already in Mexico, bought CASCAR, and came to Canada for the first time with one of its premier series, and it's known they are examining Europe. Montreal is your motorsports chrystal ball, DrJack.

[ChaimWitz]

The scramble to piece together a Champ Car World Series schedule must be no fun at the moment. On the subject of "what happens next", I have put together the following potential schedule from what I am hearing. The races that are uncertain are in bold and potential new events are in italics:

Race 1: Las Vegas - I keep hearing that this race is being "shopped" in search of a new promoter (from either series) and it may be "moved" to the end of the season to buy time. My guess is it will be "postponed" like Denver, China and Korea if no one new can be found to cover the very significant losses.

Race 2: Long Beach - No dramas there, thankfully.

Race 3: Houston - Ditto but losses are still significant.

Race 4: Portland - This race has been a money loser for ChampCar since they have guaranteed the shortfalls to the promoter. My guess is that it will stay on the schedule and ChampCar will take the hit again because they are short on races in the USA. If it happens the date will move to accommodate more races in Europe or elsewhere. Here is more on the subject:

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/sports/118948111446540.xml&coll=7

Race 5: China - Legal woes, promoter issues and sponsorship shortfalls will cause this race to be "postponed" again if listed.

Race 6: St. Jovite - This race will happen again but it will still lose money for Champ Car and the promoter.

Race 7: Edmonton - The promoters have to be asking themselves how will this event ever work financially given last year's visible decline in attendance and Champ Car's unstable state? My hunch is it will continue but only with the significant shortfall being covered by the OWRS owners.

Race 8: Cleveland - Although things looked better last year, this event cannot be close to making a profit. It looked like attendance has improved to somewhere in the mid 20,000 range on race day but I don't think that is nearly enough to make it a financial winner.

Race 9: San Jose - I think this race is a long shot due to the serious losses I hear were suffered by the promoter and Champ Car's currently awful image can't inspire confidence in trend savvy Silicon Valley. As covered in an earlier post, Laguna Seca will be where Champ Car races if they race in Northern California in 2008. If they do, it will be a track rental or with the OWRS owners covering the probable losses for the promoter.

Race 10: Road America - I believe that this was a Champ Car subsidized event in 2007 to nolster the number of US races and I think it will happen again with the OWRS owners covering the loss for the promoter simply because there are no real takers elsewhere.

Race 11: Zolder - This event did not look like a money maker so it could be replaced with another European venue or my guess is that the OWRS owners will be asked to cut the sanction fee to give it time to grow and keep Assen viable.

Race 12: Assen - This event is the bright sport of Champ Car's 2007 season and will be back. The promoter must certainly have hope that this event will continue to grow and that it will turn a profit soon.

Race 13: Surfers - This event is stable and thriving regardless of Champ Car's woes.

Race 14: Mexico City - All does not appear to be bueno in the relationship with Carlos Slim, Gerry Forsythe and Champ Car. Significant numbers of grandstand seats have been cut and there is no longer a front running Mexican driver in the series. It looks to me like this race is losing energy and some say it is only a matter of time until it is gone. What a pity if true.

Races 16 and 17: Europe - I hear of a half dozen European race possibilities for Brands Hatch to Imola. It seems like the OWRS owners are focused on this as the series near term salvation strategy so I imagine two new races will be added with promoters paying decent sanction fees.

Race 18: Orlando - Don't bet on it.

My guess is that the 2008 Champ Car World Series Schedule will be either 11-13 races if in survival mode, or 14-15 announced races if in "making a statement" mode. One thing seems clear to me though: The OWRS owners will have to subsidize many of the events in North America if they are to continue.

The IRL is easier to see in that it will have the same schedule as 2007, less the MIS event, which brings the schedule down to 16 events. I also keep hearing that the rumored race in Southern California is a long shot for 2008.

[sanguin]

Zolder is a difinite go.

China waits for FIA approval.

San Jose needs the city to get behind their race or lose it.
I would like to see both SJ and LS on the schedule.

Look for more new races.

Not bad for 4 years.

[Bob Riebe]

Tap had a song called "Back from the Dead"

The last bit in Kirby's article only painted what we knew has been going on for the last decade: the France family planned a monopoly of American racing. Possibly (cue B-movie-type mad scientist) the world! But I don't see nascar knocking F1 out of the way....

Still and all, they've done a good job of exploiting the split (and putting on my tinfoil hat, causing it so they could exploit it), and it's nearly certain that they won't let the irl get too big.

What happens next? irl completes its morph into CART II, and the France family buys TG out so they can be the Vince McMahon of the racing world. nascar becomes WWRE, Inc. (World Wide Racing Entertainment).

After that, they go after that punk, Rupert Murdoch.

If baby France--( Big Bill, like him or hate him, he was a gear-head, is long gone, leaving the greedy )--wants to become a Mince VcVahhon of racing-he will first have to aborb drag racing which is doing incredibly well and has GENUINE CAR RELATED companies putting SPONSOR money in it.
IT may not happen tomorrow but baby France found out with his generic engine that when Detroit says no, it means no, so it is only time before greed takes its deserved toll.

Bob

[ChaimWitz]

Okay, I will make it simple. What happens next has a lot to do with what Champ Car really has in terms of viable North American races going forward:

Las Vegas - Right. I'll buy some more Enron shares please with a steaming side order of Fueled by Visa.

Long Beach - The original and still the best in class but a long way from what it was in a decade ago. Grandstands are smaller and fewer and sponsorship looks down. Ratings are also poor which can't help matters.

Houston - A semi-lousy track in the middle of a bumpy parking lot. A money loser because there is not enough sponsorship or attendance. Rumors suggest that Mike Lanigan along with at least one partner at N/H/L are actively looking at jumping to the dark side. If true, who can blame them given the state of things. What happens next is beginning to look like a game of musical chairs for open wheel promoters.

Portland - A money loser with attendance far below the claimed "30,000." If ChampCar isn't supporting teams, why then would they prop up promoters now that they are operating "in the black"?

Cleveland - See Houston comments about Lanigan. Same financial concerns exist.

San Jose - From what I hear those foolish city fathers of San Jose won't be getting behind the event so a track rental or co-promoted race at Laguna is in the cards. It doesn't really qualify as viable in my book so see my Portland comments.

Road America - Only viable in terms of being on the same card with ALMS and from what I hear the terms are anti-lucrative for OWRS.

Other races - Pulllease don't start with that "Three Day Festivals of Speed" delusional rap again. You need to be drinking Kool Aid laced with speed or LSD to fall for the "new event" predictions in the USA after 2007. Orlando? Another Enron on wheels.

The bottom line is that Long Beach is really all there is.

How about Canada and Mexico?

Edmonton - We have seen it all before ... declining attendance, slipping sponsorship and losses that won't stop. This is also not a major market. Too bad since it is really a very nice event.

St. Jovite - As lovely as the track is, the race only happened out of ego and desperation. It does not represent a major market, nor does the attendance appear to be sufficient to justify the likely expense.

Toronto - Still a great event. The Long Beach of Canada. The same comments apply about recent attendance and ratings.

Mexico City - This just looks like an event that will soon run out of reasons to exist. The Pesos and the mojo are fading.

The bottom line: Toronto is all there really is.

So now, like Michael Jackson, ChampCar is off to new markets where people don't seem to care if it is cool or credible anymore at home. OWRS's owners seem to overlook that there will be plenty of competition from F1, GP2, A1GP, Renault World Series, F/ Nippon/Asia, etc. so I don't have a good feeling about how this will turn out.

What is to stop the Surfer's (ore any other international) promoter from replacing the near brandless spec car series called ChampCar with another similar open wheel series if OWRS dies? Will the casual fans and topless holiday party crowds really care - especially if a local hero is behind the wheel?

There you have it. Not bad for four years?

Not good would be a better way of saying it.

[sanguin]

Nice rumors to try to denigrate the series.I don't think anyone believes half of that.

And yet the attendance and interest remains for CC events and other series can only pretend they are going to get them.

:laugh:

[pvtjoker]

Nice rumors to try to denigrate the series.I don't think anyone believes half of that.

And yet the attendance and interest remains for CC events and other series can only pretend they are going to get them.

:laugh:


What's so funny? CC struggles to maintain a stable schedule year in and year out (not to mention teams, drivers, sponsors, etc.). Looks like yet ANOTHER supposed successful CC race (San Jose) will be cancelled. So much for a successful business plan. When does KK launch the "new" 5-year business plan? its obvious the current plan is failing miserably unless of course, the plan includes room for cancelling multiple races in a given season. In that case, the plan is working marvelously.

[sanguin]

What's so funny? CC struggles to maintain a stable schedule year in and year out. Looks like yet ANOTHER supposed successful CC race (San Jose) will be cancelled.

4 years tweaking the schedule is okay with me as long they keep getting good events.

SJ will be replaced.

[pvtjoker]

4 years tweaking the schedule is okay with me as long they keep getting good events.

SJ will be replaced.


With what? Laguna Seca? "Poor attendance" was a major factor in why they left there in the first place?

[ChaimWitz]

Let's just take a look at some recent comments about Laguna Seca from Kevin Kalkhoven from an interview in the March 12, 2007 edition of the Monterey Herald:

"There was 9,000 people the last time we raced (Laguna)," said Kalkhoven.

"I had 90,000 in San Jose. If I could race in front of 90,000 at Laguna I would come back in heartbeat. But people don't want to come to the race. They want the race to come to them."

Kalkhoven may have been over-inflating the attendance figures, but his point is well made. The No. 1 reason why Champ Car left Laguna Seca was because of poor attendance. It isn't just about revenues from the gate. Less people mean less sponsorship, which is where the real money in auto racing is found.

Part of the problem for Laguna was switching the dates of the race from late fall to early spring. The switch also occurred too closely to Champ Car's split with the Indy Racing League, a tumultuous period where some of the top drivers opted out of Champ Car.

"The race wasn't getting promoted enough," said Brazilian driver Bruno Junqueira, a three-time runner-up in the points standings. "I remember racing here and seeing the hills filled with fans. It was so packed that we had to wait three hours after the race before braving the traffic. It's not like that anymore."

Kalkhoven clearly remembers those days too, which is why he still holds the Spring Training event at Laguna. The drivers love Laguna, and if they had their druthers, they would race exclusively on road circuits.

"I'm saddened that we don't race here," said Jimmy Vasser, a former Champ Car champion who now is co-owner of PKV Racing. "This is truly among the greatest tracks in the world."

From owners to drivers, everybody involved realizes the state of auto racing in the United States. Outside of NASCAR, which is still king but has seen a decline the past few season, auto racing is mostly an afterthought.

Getting fans to pay attention is hard enough. Getting them to fork over hard earned money and fill the seats at a race track is darn near impossible.

"The economy has changed, and with it our market has too. There is a lot more competition for people's time," said Kalkhoven. "They don't want to drive down or stay at hotels just to watch a race. So we bring it to them. We make it a festival, where the wives and daughters have something else to do and the husbands and sons can still walk down pit row.

"It's a model that's proven to work."

Original link:

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mo...d/16881627.htm

Is it me or do the OWRS owners seem deceptive and delusional? I keep coming to this conclusion: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, and you join Jerkin' Joe and the Pookster on my permanent ignore list.

Okay, I know, the IRL is, um, as appealing to some of us as a pile day old dog food but this isn't about ChampCar or IRL any longer. It is about the survival of open wheel racing in North America. OWRS has had its chance and they have clearly failed unless we all somehow accept that having a tiny handful of shaky spec car races in the USA spaced months apart with anonymous drivers is okay, especially if the whole point is to give credibility to the majority of Champ Car races that aren't on American soil. Huh? How the hell does this all remotely make sense any more? It is clear that there is no real sponsor base here in America that will support this rich guy’s fantasy space camp that our once great series has sadly become and there is now precious little audience. The truth is that there are probably far more devoted Trekkies than committed Champ Car fans.

Earth to Kalkhoven. Earth to Kalkhoven. Come in Commander Kevster. Come back from Planet Penguin immediately. The inhabitants of Planet American Open Wheel are on to you just like they were with your sleepy alien skiing buddy Anton from Planet Vision. They are getting ugly just like those scary creatures that are after you from Planet JDS/Uniphase. Do you copy, Commander Kevster? Do you copy? Private Sanquin, are you there? Is anyone there who can hear me? Death Star Mindy is approaching. We have no more spinton torpedoes and our farce fields are down. Come in Commander Kevster! Come back to Earth!!!

Oh, the inhumanity!

[ChaimWitz]

Is what happens next about to happen? From Autoracing1.com:

"Champ Car might move SJ race to Laguna Seca UPDATE Champ Car World Series will announce Wednesday that the series is returning to Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca for a race the weekend of May 16-18 according to sources close to the negotiations.

The event will share the race weekend with the previously announced Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series.

Champ Car was a regular at Laguna Seca through 2004. San Jose hosted races from 2005 through this year. It appears that race will not return.

Champ Car held a "spring training" testing session at Laguna Seca last March which was attended by more than 3,000 fans. Spring training events elsewhere have drawn crowds in the hundreds at most.. The series announced last week it would once again hold its spring training at Laguna Seca in 2008. Monterey Herald

[Editor's Note: This does NOT yet mean the San Jose race is being cancelled, but it might]"

[sanguin]

Okay, I know, the IRL is, um, as appealing to some of us as a pile day old dog food Oh, the inhumanity!


Mazda!

[ChaimWitz]

Mazda!

God bless the people at Mazda for standing by open wheel and sports car racing in America without a hint of the political ugliness that has defined our day and age. Mazda's programs are an ideal blueprint for how manufacturers should engage in motorsports. I just hope they don't get burned or turned off by all the egotism, unprofessionalism and dishonesty that has tended to define the OWRS owner's behavior during the two seasons that Mazda has been involved. I am a fan and a race at Mazda Raceway is a good news, but saying one thing and then doing the opposite is not. Our series should never have left this wonderful circuit under the premise we did and to come back now only proves that this was not a promoter problem but a series managment issue. If/when there ever is one series, this venue is a keeper and, more importantly, so is Mazda.

[ChaimWitz]

Well, what happens next happened. I guess Commander Kevster had at least one spintron torpedo left:

"Champ Car moves San Jose race to Laguna Seca The Champ Car World Series announced today that its 2008 race in northern California will move from the streets of San Jose to the road course at historic Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca in Monterey.

“We’re pleased that Champ Car will be able to maintain a strong event in northern California,” said Steve Johnson, Champ Car President & CEO. “While it’s always tough to leave one city for another, in this case, it makes sense strategically for us and works for San Jose given the on-going developments of their downtown. We enjoyed three great years in San Jose, and certainly anticipate that the fans there will head south to enjoy Champ Car racing at the beautiful Monterey Peninsula’s Mazda Raceway circuit.”

Considered one of the finest permanent road courses in North America, the 2.238-mile Monterey Peninsula’s Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca will host its 23rd Champ Car World Series event next year at a date to be announced later. The first Champ Car event was held at Laguna in 1983, and though its long run of races ended the past three years, Champ Car returned there this year to conduct its pre-season testing. The testing also served as the official kick-off for the Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca’s 50th Golden Anniversary season this year.

“Needless to say, we are thrilled to announce during our 50th Anniversary season that Monterey Peninsula’s Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca will once again host a Champ Car World Series event,” said Gill Campbell, CEO/General Manager of Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca. “Our fans loved the 2007 pre-season testing, and they will certainly enjoy Champ Car’s return with a race next year. Our mutual affiliation with Mazda made this relationship a natural one for us, and we all share in the excitement. While we look forward to announcing our entire 2008 schedule soon, we wanted to share this exciting news with our fans as soon as possible.”

Organizers of the Grand Prix of San Jose recently informed the Champ Car World Series that on-going residential developments in and around the 1.5 mile downtown track would hamper next year’s race. For 2008, new housing developments on Balbach Street would affect the back straightaway, while upcoming construction in the Boston Properties lot would mean the loss of the race’s main “Gold Grandstands” on Almaden Boulevard.

“The reality of racing on a temporary street circuit is that change happens continuously and this is especially true in a dynamic and growing city center like downtown San Jose,” said Grand Prix President Dale Jantzen.

The Grand Prix provided the city of San Jose with world-wide exposure as part of the Champ Car World Series. Broadcast internationally in each of its three years, the city of San Jose estimated that the economic impact to America’s 10th largest city was approximately $70 million over the three-year period.

Champ Car’s announcement that they would race in Laguna Seca in 2008 is the first of what is expected to be several exciting announcements in the months ahead regarding 2008 race venues. The full 2008 Champ Car World Series calendar will be announced later this fall."

[Chaparral66]

Well, I'd certainly like to hear what our pal Robin Miller says about that...

[ChaimWitz]

Chapparal66, as you have pointed out, RM doesn't seem to care much about our series anymore. Robin did however post the following today though about Tonybucks on tap, which if I recall was one Dr. Jack's predictions:

"INDYCAR: Revenue Sharing Plan Set for 2008
In an effort to help its smaller to mid-level teams and possibly attract new ones, SPEEDtv.com has learned the Indy Racing League will implement a revenue-sharing plan in 2008 that pays guaranteed money to IRL regulars but eliminates race purses, except for the Indianapolis 500."

Link to full story:

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/40171/

[FlatChatRacer]

Well, cancelling San Jose was not good, but returning to Laguna Seca is superb.

Credit where it is due. Well done CCWS and the leaders for returning to Laguna Seca. Let us all hope that there is more good news to come, because it is really needed.

One thing I just thought of!

Has anyone else noticed that it is the "Street" races that are falling by the wayside and the permanent "Road" courses are where CCWS seem to be looking for stability and profitablity now! Funny how a few years ago, the leaders made such a big deal of taking the racing to the Cities. Well, I gues they tried and that plan isn't working. As ChaimWitz pointed out, only two street races are really working, Toronto and Long beach.

Conversely, the European Road Races look promising. CCWS should call Dr. J Palmer at Octagon and enquire about Brands Hatch again. If CCWS ran during one of the summer months with our local BTCC then a good crowd would be guaranteed. Run the full GP circuit and let the cars stretch their legs.

I don't like the fact that the core USA races seem to be dwindling, and we no longer race on ovals, but if travelling the world in search of foreign money will help CCWS to survive, then fair enough.

I prefer CCWS alive than dead!

PS: Starter, as a Brit, am I allowed to congratulate Dario Franchitti on winning the IRL championship in this particular forum? Apologies, but he was a Champ car driver before, so there is a link. The finish at Chicagoland was just a fairytale! Wonderful. Racing is racing after all.

[Chaparral66]

Chapparal66, as you have pointed out, RM doesn't seem to care much about our series anymore. Robin did however post the following today though about Tonybucks on tap, which if I recall was one Dr. Jack's predictions:

"INDYCAR: Revenue Sharing Plan Set for 2008
In an effort to help its smaller to mid-level teams and possibly attract new ones, SPEEDtv.com has learned the Indy Racing League will implement a revenue-sharing plan in 2008 that pays guaranteed money to IRL regulars but eliminates race purses, except for the Indianapolis 500."

Link to full story:

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/40171/

Whoa, wait a minute, I never said that Robin Miller didn't care. If anything, he cares too much. He wants Champ Car to stay viable. As long as they do, there is still, as remote as it may be, a chance to get Our Good Friend Tony George to the table (if he can be convinced that AOWR is dying a slow death without a merger). The thing is, with CCWS making more bad moves than good, and then getting his hard card taken away, RM probably figures he has easier access to the IRL and thus an easier time getting stories. Champ Car seems to be throwing one brick wall after another at RM while the IRL, while probably not liking RM a while lot more than CC does, nonetheless is being kept in the news by RM while CC's media exposure is fading more and more by the minute.

Thanks for posting the SPEEDTV.com link, ChaimWitz. With this announcement today, the distinction between the IRL and CCWS becomes clear. Obviously, quite a bit of thought went into this new policy, and the IRL brass probably consulted with a few of the teams for reaction and fine tuning. I'm sure TG encouraged this new move as a way to not only ensure the long term viability of his regular teams, but also as a way of recruiting new ones. After careful consideration, the idea was presented and reaction was positive. The leads to the impression of a solid game plan in place that is designed to gradually build the series. The IRL, giving the TG devil his due, has been taking carefully measured steps for some time. Having said that, as careful as they have been, in terms of selecting venues and other moves, they have had some issues. Changing to start time of the Indy 500, which prevented drivers like Tony Stewart and Robby Gordon from doing a Texas motorsports 2 step, was silly and probably served only to help NASCAR. And other things, like Tony saying "33 is just a number" was downright stupid. The fact that popular Sarah Fisher may have to start her own team just to have an IRL ride is another example, though a mild one.

Champ Car, by comparison, has been like a firehose run amok and spraying everywhere. Often, it misses its target and The Amigos come up with with a lame explanation to account for poor planning and even poorer excecution. And with a North American market with small smoldering fires in terms of ratings and audience dropoffs, CCWS aims their hose over at Europe where there is no flame of fan loyalty and are looking at a challenge of enticing sponsors to back the series both here and over there, thus somewhat duplicating what F1 already does. Occasionally, the hose hits a viable target, as it has with power to pass on the Cosworth engines, the new DP-01 chassis, and the announcement today of CCWS returning to Laguna Seca after the at best questionable performance of racing in the streets of San Jose are bullseye hits for CC. But those are now few and far between, and CCWS continues to try to find its soul. It hasn't helped that CC has had to cancel dates and a lot of them, these past two years. The Korea and China fiascos make Champ Car look ridiculous and chaotic. The letting go of various American drivers, to NASCAR and the IRL, such as the much talked about AJ Allmendinger and Ryan Hunter-Reay, don't halp the general perception of the series in comparison to its competition. Whereas the Amigos, who at one time looked angelic saviors who saved a proud motorsports tradition, now are starting to look spoiled little rich boys fighting over a sandbox, which is precisely how Our Good Friend at 16th and Georgetown has looked on many occasions. The difference here is that by virtue of the moves the IRL has made lately, it seems to me that TG is starting to learn from his mistakes, whereas The Amigos are starting to repeat theirs over an over.

I can't tell you how it pains me, indded, angers me, to have to say that. But the drop in ratings on TV and inconsistent fan attendence due to a lack of promotion of the events from a schedule that times looks like it is hastally put together and delivered late, only to then have some dates cancelled due to an arrogant attitude toward the FIA and not securing the overseas dates that the series bragged about, cannot be denied.

Meanwhile, the IRL goes about its business, concentrating on its plan of solidifying its hold on the American market. The irony here is that they started out wanting to be different from CART/Champ Car, but they have ende up copying a lot of what made the series a jewel in the first place. And more importantly, the IRL, while I'm sure they would deny it vigorously, continues to look at what Champ Car is doing today, and learning from the mistakes they continue to make. CCWS is almost a living laboratory for the IRL to learn what to do and what not to do. Think about it. Has the IRL cancelled many dates lately, other than Michigan (and even that wasn't a cancelled date in mid-season, just an announcement they wouldn't be coming back, they staged the race this year), despite that in years past they have shut down tracks like Naareth, Pikes Peak, and Disney Speedway? No. They have a solid, if still anemic, TV package with ABC/ESPN, which CC also got into this year, but the IRL has more of a history with them. Do they have more "name" sponsors? Yes, just a few more, but they are names we all recognize, whereas, CC has McDonald's and CDW and not a whole lot else.

On the face of it, how you can blame Robin Miller for getting fed up with his personal treatment at the hands of Champ Car, and getting frustrated at their bad judgement? Open wheel is a passion for him and to see it crumble is hearbreaking. No, he cares about it alright, but at the end of the day he still has a job to do and right now that job seems to take him to the IRL. He'd like to be reporting more on Champ Car I'm sure but they have all but blacklisted him. I'm sure he'll be back to it when he's finished capping the IRL season for SPEEDTV.com. Then I'd like to see what he has to say about 2008, for both series.

[ChaimWitz]

Great post Chapparral66 and I stand corrected. Now back to what happens next:

1) A major IRL team will go after and possibly land Justin Wilson and or AJ Almendinger. They have the money, the programs and the reputations to pull this off. They also need to given what is about to be announced regarding DF and SH.

2) I now hear from very good sources who have been 100% right about recent events that the Vegas GP is indeed dead just like Phoenix, San Jose and Denver. Stick a fork in it. The "3 Day Festivals of Speed" concept is not working and those who have been considering jumping into the ChampCar street race promotion biz are now thinking twice. Like so many things this year, the issue is down to whether Champ Car or the promoter cries uncle first. I hear that here in no longer any meaningful support for it in Vegas and the Freudster did indeed present the "opportunity" to buy the race to one or more of his former pals in the IRL during the Detroit weekend. This is a shame because it was a fun event. But there were only 20,000 seats erected and about 65%-70% were occupied on race day so this had to be a financial bloodbath. Doesn't anyone ever consider the consequences when taking on such events without a realistic view of open wheel racing's current economy, or lack there of - especially in Champ Car?

I started posting here because I have been to over 100 CART/Champ Car races in the past decade and I have tried to keep the faith but I can't any longer. Dr. Jack's thread got me to finally say: "enough is enough". The events of the past two weeks convinced me that this is the “now or never” moment for getting our sport back on the path to success.

The OWRS bunch have failed all of us miserably this year. Like many I know, I won't spend my time or my personal credibility on their behalf ever again. The IRL is not what it should be but I don't see it melting down like some here would have us all believe (and like ChampCar is actually doing). I don't like how TG and his crew have gotten to where they are at but, I now feel the same way about the OWRS false prophets.

Something has got to give here or this whole thing is going nowhere fast. There will now be no merger in my opinion which is sad. Just like the Thuderdome, two series enter, one series leaves. It is nature at work. Survival of the fittest on display for us all to see.

The promoters who are still talking to Champ there can smell blood given their frest history of event implosions. Steve Johnson and John Caghet will get pushed around, ground on and marginalized further. I know many promoters and they are not ones to cut slack to dreamers.

Beyond that, I fear now that some teams and drivers we care about will leave to build real business or take real jobs in racing incomes that reflect their talent... some may go to the IRL and a few to ALMS or Grand-Am. They are after all, realists by nature. I can't help but think they see that handwriting on the wall and even though what is written is now in several foreign languages, it still reads, "Champ Car is toast".

What a tragedy. Am I angry? Hell yes! I know, some of you still have hope. So does Sarah Fisher and Milka Duno. I know some of you are saying ;but the racing is good!" Well, the racing was good in CART too and it died. This isn't about racing. It is about business and Champ Car isn't one. The proof is now out there for all to see.

[ChaimWitz]

Great post Chapparral66 and I stand corrected. Now back to what happens next:

1) A major IRL team will go after and possibly land Justin Wilson and or AJ Almendinger. They have the money, the programs and the reputations to pull this off. They also need to given what is about to be announced regarding DF and SH.

2) I now hear from very good sources who have been 100% right about recent events that the Vegas GP is indeed dead just like Phoenix, San Jose and Denver. Stick a fork in it. The "3 Day Festivals of Speed" concept is not working and those who have been considering jumping into the ChampCar street race promotion biz are now thinking twice. Like so many things this year, the issue is down to whether Champ Car or the promoter cries uncle first. I hear that there is no longer any meaningful support for it in Vegas and the Freudster did indeed present the "opportunity" to buy the race to one or more of his former pals in the IRL during the Detroit weekend. This is a shame because it was a fun event. But there were only 20,000 seats erected and about 65%-70% were occupied on race day so this had to be a financial bloodbath. Doesn't anyone ever consider the consequences when taking on such events without a realistic view of open wheel racing's current economy, or lack there of - especially in Champ Car?

I started posting here because I have been to over 100 CART/Champ Car races in the past decade and I have tried to keep the faith but I can't any longer. Dr. Jack's thread got me to finally say: "enough is enough". The events of the past two weeks convinced me that this is the “now or never” moment for getting our sport back on the path to success.

The OWRS bunch have failed all of us miserably this year. Like many I know, I won't spend my time or my personal credibility on their behalf ever again. The IRL is not what it should be but I don't see it melting down like some here would have us all believe (and like ChampCar is actually doing). I don't like how TG and his crew have gotten to where they are at but I now feel the same way about the OWRS false prophets.

Something has got to give here or this whole thing is going nowhere fast. There will now be no merger in my opinion which is sad. Just like the Thuderdome, two series enter, one series leaves. It is nature at work. Survival of the fittest on display for us all to see.

The promoters who are still talking to Champ can smell blood given the fresh history of event implosions. Steve Johnson and John Caghet will get pushed around, ground on and marginalized further. I know many promoters and they are not ones to cut slack to dreamers.

Beyond that, I fear now that some teams and drivers we care about will leave to build real business or take real jobs elsewhere in racing with incomes that reflect their true talent... some may go to the IRL and a few to ALMS or Grand-Am. They are after all, realists by nature. I can't help but think they see that handwriting on the wall and even though what is written is now in several foreign languages, it still reads, "Champ Car is toast".

What a tragedy. Am I angry? Hell yes!

I know, some of you still have hope. So do Sarah Fisher and Milka Duno. I know some of you are saying "but the racing is good!" Well, the racing was good in CART too and it died. This isn't about racing. It is about business and Champ Car isn't one. The proof is now out there for all to see.

[seppefan]

Great post Chapparral66 and I stand corrected. Now back to what happens next:

1) A major IRL team will go after and possibly land Justin Wilson and or AJ Almendinger. They have the money, the programs and the reputations to pull this off. They also need to given what is about to be announced regarding DF and SH.

2) I now hear from very good sources who have been 100% right about recent events that the Vegas GP is indeed dead just like Phoenix, San Jose and Denver. Stick a fork in it. The "3 Day Festivals of Speed" concept is not working and those who have been considering jumping into the ChampCar street race promotion biz are now thinking twice. Like so many things this year, the issue is down to whether Champ Car or the promoter cries uncle first. I hear that there is no longer any meaningful support for it in Vegas and the Freudster did indeed present the "opportunity" to buy the race to one or more of his former pals in the IRL during the Detroit weekend. This is a shame because it was a fun event. But there were only 20,000 seats erected and about 65%-70% were occupied on race day so this had to be a financial bloodbath. Doesn't anyone ever consider the consequences when taking on such events without a realistic view of open wheel racing's current economy, or lack there of - especially in Champ Car?

I started posting here because I have been to over 100 CART/Champ Car races in the past decade and I have tried to keep the faith but I can't any longer. Dr. Jack's thread got me to finally say: "enough is enough". The events of the past two weeks convinced me that this is the “now or never” moment for getting our sport back on the path to success.

The OWRS bunch have failed all of us miserably this year. Like many I know, I won't spend my time or my personal credibility on their behalf ever again. The IRL is not what it should be but I don't see it melting down like some here would have us all believe (and like ChampCar is actually doing). I don't like how TG and his crew have gotten to where they are at but I now feel the same way about the OWRS false prophets.

Something has got to give here or this whole thing is going nowhere fast. There will now be no merger in my opinion which is sad. Just like the Thuderdome, two series enter, one series leaves. It is nature at work. Survival of the fittest on display for us all to see.

The promoters who are still talking to Champ can smell blood given the fresh history of event implosions. Steve Johnson and John Caghet will get pushed around, ground on and marginalized further. I know many promoters and they are not ones to cut slack to dreamers.

Beyond that, I fear now that some teams and drivers we care about will leave to build real business or take real jobs elsewhere in racing with incomes that reflect their true talent... some may go to the IRL and a few to ALMS or Grand-Am. They are after all, realists by nature. I can't help but think they see that handwriting on the wall and even though what is written is now in several foreign languages, it still reads, "Champ Car is toast".

What a tragedy. Am I angry? Hell yes!

I know, some of you still have hope. So do Sarah Fisher and Milka Duno. I know some of you are saying "but the racing is good!" Well, the racing was good in CART too and it died. This isn't about racing. It is about business and Champ Car isn't one. The proof is now out there for all to see.

You are so right. amazes me these guys are so rich yet so incapable. I am going to carry on dreaming till the day it dies though cos I love CC too. Come on KK.

[Chaparral66]

Chaim, I can't find much fault with what you wrote. I've been critical myself, and I love this series and its history. Which is why we can't give up, either on the series or the possiblity of a merger. It's too important. I don't wannt to see a great sports tradition die because of a rich man's parlor game. If we continue to believe and put pressure on CCWS to do a better job, maybe we will finally see some light at the end of the Monaco Tunnel.

[booger]

Put another fork in them. Next Marketing (the savior with Richitelli at the helm) hung up their helmets last week and resigned the Champ Car account. Next: CDW's contract is up at the end of the season and they are also saying bye, bye. Richitelli ran this account too. What's left? What's left?

[FlatChatRacer]

Booger,
Is this really true? I am not going to press you for a link or proof, but that is worrying news. Please say that this is just your opinion.

Now more than ever the CCWS leaders need to call a press conference and explain what is going on. Time for the boys to step up and show some leadership. Even if things look bad, talk about the problems and accept that things are difficult, but will get better because of the new plans. Reassure everyone involved with the series. Provide details of the new and wonderful marketing and promotional campaign that will re-energise the series.

Goodness, they have spent so much money on the series, you would think that they would want to protect their investment!

[heelntoe]

Booger,
Is this really true? I am not going to press you for a link or proof, but that is worrying news. Please say that this is just your opinion.

Now more than ever the CCWS leaders need to call a press conference and explain what is going on. Time for the boys to step up and show some leadership. Even if things look bad, talk about the problems and accept that things are difficult, but will get better because of the new plans. Reassure everyone involved with the series. Provide details of the new and wonderful marketing and promotional campaign that will re-energise the series.

Goodness, they have spent so much money on the series, you would think that they would want to protect their investment!

Sorry guys, but the fat lady just finished her soundcheck and is about to step up to the mike for her finale...heard that Houston is now about to goo bye-bye too. This is it folks...the beginning of the end...imo, of course, we'll see.

[Sandfly]

Not surprised that NEXT left, before they got the boot. I am hearing that there are others with huge motorsport experience, already at work.

I would'nt put away my CC clothes just yet. Just because NEXT made one deal doesn't mean they own that company or control what they do with future sponsorship. But, for all I know you own CDW and are tippin' your hand. But I don't think so.

I would not be surprised to see several changes at CC. KK seesm to be a guy who tries to hire good people and let them work. If things don't go as well as planned, move on to someone new - or old - to get the job done.

CC has made many great strides and a few backward steps, and has just stood around at times during the last year, but overall they are the best racing product on any track anywhere, and if priced right, they are the best marketing value in motorsports. I do not know how they have been trying to price it, perhaps too high,,, but there is a market for what CC provides and the trick is finding the right way to attract and hold those companies.

CC has not been doing that. Perhaps the deal is different than football , or tennis, or bowling. With NEXT gone, that opens the door for a marketing team that can get the job done. Just my opinion of course. But I cannot ignore the fact that CC is the best racing product in the business.

[Papyrus]

Not surprised that NEXT left, before they got the boot. I am hearing that there are others with huge motorsport experience, already at work.

I would'nt put away my CC clothes just yet. Just because NEXT made one deal doesn't mean they own that company or control what they do with future sponsorship. But, for all I know you own CDW and are tippin' your hand. But I don't think so.

I would not be surprised to see several changes at CC. KK seesm to be a guy who tries to hire good people and let them work. If things don't go as well as planned, move on to someone new - or old - to get the job done.

CC has made many great strides and a few backward steps, and has just stood around at times during the last year, but overall they are the best racing product on any track anywhere, and if priced right, they are the best marketing value in motorsports. I do not know how they have been trying to price it, perhaps too high,,, but there is a market for what CC provides and the trick is finding the right way to attract and hold those companies.

CC has not been doing that. Perhaps the deal is different than football , or tennis, or bowling. With NEXT gone, that opens the door for a marketing team that can get the job done. Just my opinion of course. But I cannot ignore the fact that CC is the best racing product in the business.

Sandyfly my brother speaks the truth as I know it from hearing what those who know are telling those lime me who they trust as they work the plan regardless of the ones who want our great series dead becuse is prooves that FTG is out of time and out of things he can steal from us since he and the traitors have no vision that they do not take from those of us who know the truth. Puck doubters this is just another hole in the road to being the nightmayor for the Grandson and little France and BE and Max becuse they fear us now that we have proven that they don't own the world and real fans can see truth so there is no place they can hide and those who want us dead will have a surprise because I am told this is all part of a plan that only the ones who know the truth will follow. what is so hard to understand?

[Hoop-98]

Sandyfly my brother speaks the truth as I know it from hearing what those who know are telling those lime me who they trust as they work the plan regardless of the ones who want our great series dead becuse is prooves that FTG is out of time and out of things he can steal from us since he and the traitors have no vision that they do not take from those of us who know the truth. Puck doubters this is just another hole in the road to being the nightmayor for the Grandson and little France and BE and Max becuse they fear us now that we have proven that they don't own the world and real fans can see truth so there is no place they can hide and those who want us dead will have a surprise because I am told this is all part of a plan that only the ones who know the truth will follow. what is so hard to understand?

Thank you anointed one for sharing the gospel with us unworthy....

rh

[Papyrus]

Sorry guys, but the fat lady just finished her soundcheck and is about to step up to the mike for her finale...heard that Houston is now about to goo bye-bye too. This is it folks...the beginning of the end...imo, of course, we'll see.

Are you seriesous? I am four I speak with those who know and there is no probelms anywhere you say becuase the good is yet to come and the good keeps on getting better as we move forwards to more of what we all want and desire even though we all know others don't want us to have what we desire.

New cites see our value and see our fans when others have not and the new series sponser will cover the earth as we go ahead with the Amigos plan that they have formed with no thinking of FTG or those who go in circles that only ignorent red state haters can watch.

Our series is alive and that is what scare the other series becase they see what we can be and they can never be becuase we are ChampCar,,, racing American styles since 1909 and you can't stop that witch is not stopible.

[Papyrus]

Thank you anointed one for sharing the gospel with us unworthy....

rh

Are you mauking me? If you our then you should look in the mirrer and see that what you desire is what I work for each day I wake up for fight to keep alive what is right. Did you see Assen? Fans know the truth and those who preseve and keep what we desire see this and will never give up and I will be proof, so before you sit there and make a joke know that they know me and speak to me and not to you.

[Hoop-98]

Are you mauking me? If you our then you should look in the mirrer and see that what you desire is what I work for each day I wake up for fight to keep alive what is right. Did you see Assen? Fans know the truth and those who preseve and keep what we desire see this and will never give up and I will be proof, so before you sit there and make a joke know that they know me and speak to me and not to you.

Mauk, hardlee, I am THANKING you oh pressed shreds of cloth....In your PM's you have shown me the path of enlightenment

Street Courses Good
Laguna Seca better

Major

[garyshell]

what is so hard to understand?

What is so hard to understand? Why you can't find the damn shift key.
What is so hard to understand? Why you can't find the period key.
What is so hard to understand? In one word... YOU!

Gary

[Cart750hp]

LGBP Survives Series

The Long Beach Grand Prix feels more like Liechtenstein every day.

The tiny principality is small in size only. It's an Old World city with a new world economy that appears disaffected by the tumult in that lands around it.

Such is the Grand Prix. The city fathers love the event. It draws six-digits worth of humanity annually to its weekend of racing, and the economic community considers it institutional stock.

Now if only it could get away from the tumult of Champ Car.

The racing series is once again beset by problems and gaffes, operated by directors who seemingly can't read a map, which is not a good thing if auto racing is your game. The people who run the Grand Prix look at this mess, shrug their shoulders yet again, and move on with its usual purpose.

The race isn't immune to these problems, but it has a stronger constitution than others.

"We can operate in a semi-autonomous vacuum," said Jim Michaelian, the CEO of the Grand Prix Association. "We like to think we have the greatest venue for the sport in North America, and we continually put on a good show.

"There's no doubt our task is more challenging than it was years ago, but it doesn't stop us from doing our thing to make the race a success and evolve."
Success is not a word the Champ Car World Series can use, and there's more de-evolution than evolution for the group. The circuit is simply overwhelmed by the things on its plate.

Like a lack of name drivers.

Sebastian Bourdais, the mild-mannered Frenchman who has won six of the 12 races this season, 29 in his career and 26 of the last 53 in the series, is headed to Formula One next season, taking away the circuit's most successful name.

Robert Doornbos, the rookie from the Netherlands who has six podium finishes and two wins this season, is a former F1 vet who will likely have his pick of tours to choose from next season. Katherine Legge, the pleasant Brit who gained the circuit some notoriety in 2006, is struggling with Coyne Racing, the Tampa Day Devil Rays of open-wheel racing.

Justin Wilson (four podiums in 2007) may make the move to the Indy Racing League next season. Promising rookie Graham Rahal, the only American on the tour, has four podiums this season, and one imagines it's just a matter of time before he starts driving for his dad Bobby in the IRL.

Like a dwindling number of events.

Two events on the 2007 schedule have been scrubbed, the long-awaited race in China that had already been moved to October, and the Pheonix race that was supposed to be the season-ender and bring the tour back to North America after four months overseas. They mark the fourth and fifth races to be cancelled in the last three years.

The Las Vegas race, conducted by the same people who just cancelled the Phoenix race, is in doubt for 2008. It was announced Tuesday that the race in San Jose will move to Laguna Seca in 2008, which is a storied track but also represents a move from a big-name city to a rural track.

There were also two separate seven-week breaks in the season. The IRL held just 17 events, but had larger fields. For comparison purposes, NASCAR has as many racing weekends as Champ Car and the IRL combined.

Like a lack of growth in teams.

Two teams that merged before the season, RuSports and Rocketsports, have since split. Champ Car's promise of a lineup of 20-plus cars each event wasn't met, with 17 starting most events this season. The IRL may not be much better off than Champ Car in the exhaust of NASCAR, but there are still team names like Andretti, Ganassi, Foyt, Rahal/Letterman and Penske in the sport. In Champ Car, there's Newman/Haas.

(That said, the IRL just announced a plan to eliminate race purses and switch to revenue sharing to prop up weaker teams, which could lead the Andrettis et al to consider jumping back to Champ Car.)

Like geography.

Of the 16 races, only seven were held in the United States, with three others in Canada and four across various oceans. With Phoenix gone, the North American calendar ended in mid-August.

This disparity may become even greater. The three men who run Champ Cap, Kevin Kalkhoven, Paul Gentilozzi and Dan Pettit, are openly talking about adding more events in Europe after great reception from their events in Belgium and the Netherlands this month.

NASCAR dominates here. F1 is looking more to emerging nations than Old World ones, and it is cutting its investment in Europe dates, which makes Champ Car's thought of invading Europe almost sensible. Europe offers Champ Car things it can't get here - like sponsorship and TV ratings.

For those still dreaming of a merger with IRL, forget it. Once the IRL's Tony George couldn't get the terms he wanted on a merger or a working relationship, the idea went dead.

"We want Champ Car to have a strong North American presence, and we want a schedule where there aren't so many bloody long periods without races," Michaelian said. "And we want American drivers and American teams that we can promote.

"We're in a renewal phase with ticket holders, and they ask these kind of questions. We get notes from fans that want to know if Rahal/Letterman and Scott Speed (who's leaving F1) are coming back to Champ Car. These fans are critical to our event."

He said they represent about 30 percent of the race's fan foundation.

But that other 70 percent is just as important. It's what made the Grand Prix a party as much as a race and has allowed it to avoid problems. "Our approach is different," he continued. "We don't isolate on just the race. We will add anything to the program, from motorcycles to skateboarding to music, to make it better.

"We put on a great show (in CART's best days), and we put on a great show now. It's just different. We find every opportunity we can to evolve."

In the open-wheel world, they appear to be the only ones.

http://www.presstelegram.com/sports/ci_6867104

[Fangio]

What I don`t understand is how paper beats rock. :D

[Papyrus]

What is so hard to understand is the question we ask as those who want the greatest series to be dead continue to ignoar the truth of what we desire as we keep our world series alive and the product that is the best going forewards for those who believe like those true fans of real racing in Assen. You did see at that one great race proof of what we believe and seek for the future becuse nothing has stopped our great product since 1909 not FTG or the OT cartel of those who follow the family from the state I send this message to all here from or a little man who thinks the world is his but we have proven him wrong in Assen so he will stop nowhere to stop us from what we all desire as we keep the series alive with the faith of those i speak to who see our faith and say puck the doubters and puck the grandson and his poeple who seek to destroy what is right what is so hard to understand?

[ChaimWitz]

What is so hard to understand is the question we ask as those who want the greatest series to be dead continue to ignoar the truth of what we desire as we keep our world series alive and the product that is the best going forewards for those who believe like those true fans of real racing in Assen. You did see at that one great race proof of what we believe and seek for the future becuse nothing has stopped our great product since 1909 not FTG or the OT cartel of those who follow the family from the state I send this message to all here from or a little man who thinks the world is his but we have proven him wrong in Assen so he will stop nowhere to stop us from what we all desire as we keep the series alive with the faith of those who seek to destroy what is right what is so hard to understand?

Huh? Do you hear voices or are dogs talking to you? Aren't you lost and on the wrong site or are you just goofing on us? Probably. But if not, I think I know who you are and you make as much sense as usual. From what I have seen this season, you must be the savant advising Champ Car on their schedule, PR and marketing. Since you have a direct link to the "ones with the plan", could you please tell them that it sucks so far. It is time for a different plan and no more of their silly Plan 9 From Outer Space. Also tell them to read John Orevicz’s latest on ESPN.com:

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/columns/story?seriesId=5&columnist=oreovicz_john&id=3016350

He writes:

“Some races that survived the CART bankruptcy lasted five or six years, like Denver, Montreal and Monterrey, Mexico. But they're the exception to the rule and they are all off the Champ Car schedule now. In all, whopping 13 events have come and gone since Y2K, including traditional stalwarts like Milwaukee.

And that number doesn't even include non-starters like Korea, China and Phoenix. Or the Hawaiian Super Prix, for that matter.”

So Papyrus, we should “***** doubt” eh? There are more races gone in this century than will likely be on Champ Car's schedule in 2008, if in fact, there is a 2008 Champ Car season.

Well I can’t ***** Doubt any longer. Commander Kevster’s latest version of what Champ Car’s “plan” is smacks of desperation and strains credibility:

“We've learned that Europe really likes us, so we'll push on there, and we've learned that there are other parts of the world where, as Formula 1 departs, they have a great interest.”

Okay. Papyrus, please tell Commander Kevster, I agree that there are some people who may have great interest in other parts of the world in Champ Car (I hear we are big in Poland and Paraguay too) but what about here in the USA? Your new plan will only diminish interest and remove whatever scant credibility remains for our once proud series.

Like Papyrus, I speak with those who know and it is looking more likely that Champ Car may soon lose several of top teams to other series that run the majority of their races in the USA. If that happens, where are the new teams coming from to replace the 4-6 cars they will be gone?

A1GP?

Formula Holden?

World of Outlaws? Actually, that would be fitting.

Fear spreads like fire and I can feel it in a Champ Car paddock these days as strongly as I felt it in the last days of CART. Several of Champ Car’s current team owners have seen it all before. I now suspect that in light of recent events, common sense and survival instincts are now kicking into overdrive and these team owners will deflect Commander Kevster’s Spinton torpedoes and ignore his Farce Shields as they fight for a more stable future elsewhere.

Which begs the question: what is Champ Car anyway?

Is it events that are preserved from the collapse of CART? Maybe, but only eight races remain from the 20 race 2003 schedule: Long Beach, Monterey, Portland (doubtful), Cleveland, Road America, Toronto, Surfers (which is still referred to as “Indy” in the logo and by the locals) and Mexico City.

Is it American? Doubtful, there are only two American drivers in the series and only four or five races now likely on American soil in 2008.

Is it the rightful successor to the American National Championship previously sanctioned by AAA, USAC and CART? That is a stretch these days since the vast majority of the races held in this championship over the prior 98 years have been oval tracks and they have been in the USA. There are no ovals in Champ Car any longer and with only 4-5 likely races in the USA in 2008 I can’t see it. In 2007, The IRL had 16 of 17 races in the USA they raced 12 times on ovals. This obviously includes Indy which also held the first two oval races in the inaugural year of American National Championship in 1909 which Champ Car so often claims as its heritage. The IRL also now has St. Pete, Mid-Ohio Sears Point, Watkins Glen and Belle Isle – all of which held either USAC or CART races previously. Consider what happens to this claimed heritage if several of ChampCar’s traditional races die or move to the dark side?

Is it the teams? How many are left from the CART era that gave the sport its identity? Newman/Haas/Lanigan, Forsythe, Walker, Coyne and Conquest. The IRL has Penske, Ganassi, Andretti/Green and Rahal/Letterman. If 2-3 of ChampCar’s core teams depart for “greener” pastures, what is left?

Is it the fans? Well, some of us are still here but true attendance at all the races I have been to is not encouraging. Ditto for the TV ratings.

Is it the sponsors? What sponsors? McDonalds and Pay By Touch? Hey, CDW, thanks for stopping by on your way to somewhere else! Too bad the folks at Motorock and Lexington energy never would buy anything. Did you try iRise? I hear they need some mouse pads.

Is it the manufacturers? Mazda in the Atlantic series counts for something but no, Champ Car is not a major league series without manufacturer involvement at the top level.

Is it the Cars? Ten years ago there were 26-28 cars representing five different world-class chassis manufacturers: Reynard, Lola, Penske, Swift and Eagle. These cars were perhaps the most beautiful race cars in the world. Today we have 17 semi tatty spec cars built by an IRL chassis supplier. When you have seen one, you have seen them all.

So just what is Champ Car now?

The answer to that question gives a clue to what happens next.

[sanguin]

CART is dead.

ovals are not necessary to CC.

Every series changes and gets rid of events every series. F1 has ,ALMS has Grand Am, Nascar does, every major series evolves and changes. These series have been around longer too. CC doesn't have to keep events that aren't working ,just to look good to the press. CC has 4 years, its a work in progress.

While nascar continues to recruit foreign drivers to make themselves international, CC is already there. Good drivers ,american or not.

CC is not challenged by the departure of a manufacturer, cosworth is there.

Fans ,enough said. San Jose is sorry to see their GP go.Cleveland and RA are back.

The car is great and the best decision the owners made.

It's about the racing and the racing is good.

CC is put under a microscope for things other series do all the time. It's not a sign of failure ,its changing to make it better,just like any series does.

Everyone just cares so much more about CC. It's great.

[mike15]

In the history of sports there have been many teams that fail every year but their fans never give up. (The Chicago Cub and Cleveland Browns fans come to mind.) For those fans it's always the next game and as the year goes on there is always next year.

Then there are the fair weather fans that only come out and support their team when the team is A WINNING TEAM.

Then there are the ONLY IF FANS. I will support the team ONLY IF THEY ( go to my favorite race track, secure my American driver)

Then there are fans that are not fans at all but show up and claim to be fans when they are given something for free. A free race day ticket or an invitation to hospitality tent or as simple as free TV.

Then there are those Debbie Downer fans that have an impulse to find the negative side of every positive issue and expand negative issues to a dooms day downer.

Then there are fans who will buy a three day weekend ticket the first day tickets are sold. They purchase those tickets, without qualification. They purchase tickets in many cases before teams, drivers and the rest of the schedule is set. They purchase ticket for the love of the series.

[ChaimWitz]

CART is dead.

ovals are not necessary to CC.

Every series changes and gets rid of events every series. F1 has ,ALMS has Grand Am, Nascar does, every major series evolves and changes. These series have been around longer too. CC doesn't have to keep events that aren't working ,just to look good to the press. CC has 4 years, its a work in progress.

While nascar continues to recruit foreign drivers to make themselves international, CC is already there. Good drivers ,american or not.

CC is not challenged by the departure of a manufacturer, cosworth is there.

Fans ,enough said. San Jose is sorry to see their GP go.Cleveland and RA are back.

The car is great and the best decision the owners made.

It's about the racing and the racing is good.

CC is put under a microscope for things other series do all the time. It's not a sign of failure ,its changing to make it better,just like any series does.

Everyone just cares so much more about CC. It's great.

Huh? Who actually believes this delusional spin anymore? This is like saying Ford's purchase of Jaguar is a success because people still buy the cars. You and Papyrus should hook up and see if you can get a discount on Kool Aid by buying in bulk quantities.

I see evidence that the DP1 was anything but "the best decision the owners made". 17 cars and only one new team (sorry mate, Minardi USA doesn't count).

Fans, enough said? Huh? How can you actually believe that? Our races are bombing at the gate and on TV at home. Phoenix sold something like 1000 tickets. Vegas had well less than 20k on the grounds on race day despite a flood of free tickets in town. San Jose was JDS/Uniphase on wheels for the promoter. Ditto for Denver, which I hear, actually sold less than 20k total tickets for the entire weekend in 2006. Portland had well less than 15K on race day. Mexico now has less than half the seats it had in 2003. Okay, we are big in Holland and Australia... but in the later case, the event was built by a combination of having CART, the brand Indy and the V-8 series. The TV ratings are barely measurable when we can get on TV. People aren't as dumb as you need them to be to keep your fantasy world alive.

So, you believe “It's about the racing and the racing is good.”

I live in the real world where results count so I actually believe it is really about something else that matters far more:

Credibility.

1. capable of being believed; believable: a credible statement.
2. worthy of belief or confidence; trustworthy: a credible witness.

—Synonyms 1. plausible, likely, reasonable, tenable.

The lack of credibility is the real reason our series is constantly under a microscope. It now takes the best micorscope money can buy to find any faint trace of that once abundant element that is so crucial to success. What tiny credibility there was left this summer has evaporated in the past two weeks and all I can see now (even without a microscope) are failures, embarrassments, lies, rationalizations and desperation. How the hell do we build anything that will last with those elements?

[sanguin]

What about the rest of the events?

Mexico does over 100k weekend

Vegas had 40k on race day

Denver did over 100k weekend

San Jose over 80k weekend

Portland over 70k weekend


CHAMP CAR WELCOMES ONE MILLIONTH FAN IN SAN JOSE
Saturday, July 28, 2007

Champ Car World Series shows growth in several areas through first half of 2007

SAN JOSE (July 28, 2007) - The Champ Car World Series honored its one millionth fan of the 2007 season at the San Jose Grand Prix at Redback Raceway today, an early milestone for the Series due to attendance being up 16% this year.

Storm Vanderzee, John Walsh and family, who are attending the race weekend together, were showered with confetti and greeted by Champ Car personalities as they entered the turnstile. After television crews and photographers captured the special moment, they were whisked away to the Champ Car suite, where they watched the highly competitive 2007 Champ Car field prepare for today's qualifying session, and headed to the paddock for lunch at the hospitality area of the Canadian Triple Crown winning team of Team Australia. The group ate with the crew, team owner Derrick Walker and drivers Simon Pagenaud and Will Power, who is involved in a tight battle for the Championship lead, where the top-four drivers are within 29 points of each other.

The milestone reached this weekend reflects the Champ Car World Series' improved performance to date in 2007. Not only is attendance up but more fans have been tuning into the race broadcasts this year in order to follow the budding rivalry between Sebastien Bourdais and Robert Doornbos, the emergence as Team Australia as one of the top teams, or to see which rookie will make it on the podium. Television viewership is up 11 percent over 7 races this year compared to 2006.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=11978

[FlatChatRacer]

Sanguin,

Vegas did not have 40K on Race Day. The grandstands at the time only held a maximum of 20K seats and they were at best 75% full. Furthermore if there were 5k people in general admission walking around, there were a lot!

I admire your positive attitude, but you also need to have a balanced view of the current state of the series. I love the series too, but there are more negative things occurring than positive.

I agree that series evolve and change and CCWS are doing that as well. However, anyone looking at this from a purely analytical point of view can see that the changes are reactive rather then proactive. There isn't a coherent plan or structure. I would dearly like to see the leaders of CCWS prodcuce a plan.

[garyshell]

What about the rest of the events?

Mexico does over 100k weekend

Vegas had 40k on race day

Denver did over 100k weekend

San Jose over 80k weekend

Portland over 70k weekend



http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=11978

Oh, please this is like shooting fish in a freakin' barrel. Of those five, one didn't happen THIS year (Denver), one more (SJ) is gone for SURE next year and two more (Vegas and Portland) are reported to be iffy.

Come on sanguin, you are making the rest of us "pom pom" wavers look bad by this continued idiocy.

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

Sanguin, we all know you believe anything that the OWRS 'leaders" want you to believe. For all we know, you are one of them! Unfortunately for you, those of us with common sense know the truth especially if we also know the event promoters. We also now have vivid proof that anything in a CCWS press release is highly suspect.

Here is the reality check that most people get but you won't accept:

"Mexico does over 100k weekend". A stretch at best and the numbers are clearly trending downward. Vast sections of seating are no longer used. Sponsorship is down and now we have the cynical ploy of dropping David Martinez in a car to prop up this sick event at the expense of Oriol Servia who deserves better given how he has performed this season.

"Vegas had 40k on race day". I guess you are counting the homeless living near the circuit and the people inside the hotels and casinos who really wished there wasn't a "3-day Festival of Speed" ruining their Easter weekend. The truth is that there were 20,000 seats and very few viable general admission spectator areas. The 12,000 seats that were on the front straight were 65-70 percent full at best. The parking structure everyone raves about holding large numbers of fans did not hold 25,000. If this event was so boffo, why is it likely going away? The answer dear Sanguin is losses created by lack of sponsorship and not enough attendance.

"Denver did over 100k weekend". I hear from several trusted sources that there were less than 20,000 total tickets sold in 2006. This was 10,000 off the prior year as a result of the corporate buys being down since the sponsor was in their death throes. At best, the weekend saw 35K. It is dead now, as you well know, killed by losses created by lack of enough sponsorship and attendance not for the bogus mumbo jumbo in Champ Car's press release on the matter.

"San Jose over 80k weekend". I am told by other very good sources that the number is 25% less and that the same old story applied there: It is dead now as you well know, killed by losses created by lack of enough sponsorship and attendance not for the bogus mumbo jumbo in Champ Car's press release of this past Tuesday. At least the promoter in Phoenix had the decency to tell the truth on why he cancelled the Champ Car season finale: “An event of this magnitude requires considerable corporate support and though we did establish some outstanding partnerships, there were simply not enough of these to create economic viability,” said Dale Jensen, owner and managing member of the sports property.

"Portland over 70k weekend". This is simply absurd. 40k would be a generous estimate. It is probably dead now, as you well know, unless Champ Car dips into all those mythical profits you like to tout. If it goes away, it will have been killed by losses created by lack of enough sponsorship and attendance, which is for once, reflected in Champ Car's numerous official statements on this subject:

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/sports/118948111446540.xml&coll=7&thispage=1

Back to you Baghdad Sanguin!

[fan-veteran]

The hidden trumps (or at least we may consider as trumps) of CCWS are:
- safety - quite more than IRL definitely because of lack of ovals
- no ovals , road/street circuits only - definitely a lot of drivers prefer not to race on ovals because find them 'someway easy', not challenging enough.
- more freedom in technical rules

So now arises the question - which is better - IRL with two of exotics - ovals and street circuits or CCWS with one (streets). So the question is around ovals - should they be or not.

Of course my opinion is that it's better for a series to have ovals - superovals , 3 superspeedways on the schedule (Michigan, Fontana, ...and ..i do'know) but safety ?!? ; and attendance ,even the best races like Michigan 2000 were not so very well attended, a 1/4 empty stands would be sad. I think - if there to be ovals - they should be superspeedways. But anyway - will the owners "allow" such a CCWS races to be held there (and if yes - for what a price :) )

[David St. Hubbins]

The fact of the matter is most of us here are getting tired of holding the flag, much less wave it. The flag is supposed to stand for something, and KK et al have let it fade to the point where it symbolizes almost nothing.

I'm angry because of that, but even more than angry, I'm saddened and ashamed that the series I've followed for many years, and pulled for through thick and thin, seems to be going out with a whimper. I know it's not gone yet, it's sure looking like it'll be hard to answer the bell for '08.

[Alexamateo]

<H3 id=poemTitle>The Hollow Men

T. S. Eliot (http://poetry.poetryx.com/poets/22/)

Mistah Kurtz—he dead. A penny for the Old Guy IWe are the hollow menWe are the stuffed menLeaning togetherHeadpiece filled with straw. Alas!Our dried voices, whenWe whisper togetherAre quiet and meaninglessAs wind in dry grassOr rats’ feet over broken glassIn our dry cellarShape without form, shade without colour,Paralysed force, gesture without motion;Those who have crossedWith direct eyes, to death’s other KingdomRemember us—if at all—not as lostViolent souls, but onlyAs the hollow menThe stuffed men. IIEyes I dare not meet in dreamsIn death’s dream kingdomThese do not appear:There, the eyes areSunlight on a broken columnThere, is a tree swingingAnd voices areIn the wind’s singingMore distant and more solemnThan a fading star.Let me be no nearerIn death’s dream kingdomLet me also wearSuch deliberate disguisesRat’s coat, crowskin, crossed stavesIn a fieldBehaving as the wind behavesNo nearer—Not that final meetingIn the twilight kingdom IIIThis is the dead landThis is cactus landHere the stone imagesAre raised, here they receiveThe supplication of a dead man’s handUnder the twinkle of a fading star.Is it like thisIn death’s other kingdomWaking aloneAt the hour when we areTrembling with tendernessLips that would kissForm prayers to broken stone. IVThe eyes are not hereThere are no eyes hereIn this valley of dying starsIn this hollow valleyThis broken jaw of our lost kingdomsIn this last of meeting placesWe grope togetherAnd avoid speechGathered on this beach of the tumid riverSightless, unlessThe eyes reappearAs the perpetual starMultifoliate roseOf death’s twilight kingdomThe hope onlyOf empty men. VHere we go round the prickly pearPrickly pear prickly pearHere we go round the prickly pearAt five o’clock in the morning.Between the ideaAnd the realityBetween the motionAnd the actFalls the Shadow For Thine is the KingdomBetween the conceptionAnd the creationBetween the emotionAnd the responseFalls the Shadow Life is very longBetween the desireAnd the spasmBetween the potencyAnd the existenceBetween the essenceAnd the descentFalls the Shadow For Thine is the KingdomFor Thine isLife isFor Thine is theThis is the way the world endsThis is the way the world endsThis is the way the world endsNot with a bang but a whimper.
</H3> :(

[sanguin]

The fact of the matter is most of us here are getting tired of holding the flag, much less wave it. The flag is supposed to stand for something, and KK et al have let it fade to the point where it symbolizes almost nothing.

I'm angry because of that, but even more than angry, I'm saddened and ashamed that the series I've followed for many years, and pulled for through thick and thin, seems to be going out with a whimper. I know it's not gone yet, it's sure looking like it'll be hard to answer the bell for '08.

Why? because they're changing the schedule?
They just announced Spring training
Announced a new venue
There are still solid events
They still have cosworth
Atlantics
Tv contract
New drivers are interested.

The Owners committed to the series. 2008 is not an issue.


Have you seen what's going on in F1? Besides all the tracks they dumped, they have a spy case going on. Manufacturers could be out for the season.
Teams go under and get sold every year.The drivers come and go.Compared to their dramas, CC 's are nothing.

[David St. Hubbins]

The owners say their committed, and I sure want to believe them. I have a habit of sticking around anyway just to see how things turn out, but as I've said, my confidence is falling.

IMO, businesses don't really operate on money--they operate on confidence. If customers have confidence that the company will be there, and do what they say they'll do, then the customers will buy what the company's selling. If customers don't have that confidence, they won't buy, and the company goes out of business.

Remember the old 70s show "Barney Miller"? There was an episode where some kid was brought into the station, and he'd been dealing drugs or something, and had a huge wad of cash. Det Harris (Ron Glass) told the kid, "You've got a lot of money, but I've got something you'll never have." "What's that?" the kid asked. Harris said, "Credit!"

[Papyrus]

Why? because they're changing the schedule?
They just announced Spring training
Announced a new venue
There are still solid events
They still have cosworth
Atlantics
Tv contract
New drivers are interested.

The Owners committed to the series. 2008 is not an issue.

Have you seen what's going on in F1? Besides all the tracks they dumped, they have a spy case going on. Manufacturers could be out for the season.
Teams go under and get sold every year.The drivers come and go.Compared to their dramas, CC 's are nothing.

Thanks brother Sanguin your stating the obveious that all true fans in the world see for what it is,,, all you write is so right on and the ones who are working the plan see this and will not give in to those who want our series dead so that they can have what we have built with great pain against their efforts to kill our spirits which will not be killed by FTG or BE or the little France. F1 will now begin the fall that all true fans see it and our great series will be in the world to pick up all the races and the true fans,,, the racing is good,,, we have fans,,, the others don't,,, whats so hard to understand?

[sanguin]

The owners say their committed, and I sure want to believe them. I have a habit of sticking around anyway just to see how things turn out, but as I've said, my confidence is falling.

IMO, businesses don't really operate on money--they operate on confidence. If customers have confidence that the company will be there, and do what they say they'll do, then the customers will buy what the company's selling. If customers don't have that confidence, they won't buy, and the company goes out of business.

Remember the old 70s show "Barney Miller"? There was an episode where some kid was brought into the station, and he'd been dealing drugs or something, and had a huge wad of cash. Det Harris (Ron Glass) told the kid, "You've got a lot of money, but I've got something you'll never have." "What's that?" the kid asked. Harris said, "Credit!"

I look at it this way. They bought Toronto and LB to secure them for the series.They invested in a new car and revived the feeder series. They secured a tv contract. They invested 15 million on a new car for CC. The fan base is there and they listen to the fans and get tracks back like RA and LS. Just because some are jealous and want to tear it down ,doesn't diminish what is already there.

It's about the racing and the racing is good!

:)

[Chaparral66]

The owners say their committed, and I sure want to believe them. I have a habit of sticking around anyway just to see how things turn out, but as I've said, my confidence is falling.

IMO, businesses don't really operate on money--they operate on confidence. If customers have confidence that the company will be there, and do what they say they'll do, then the customers will buy what the company's selling. If customers don't have that confidence, they won't buy, and the company goes out of business.

Remember the old 70s show "Barney Miller"? There was an episode where some kid was brought into the station, and he'd been dealing drugs or something, and had a huge wad of cash. Det Harris (Ron Glass) told the kid, "You've got a lot of money, but I've got something you'll never have." "What's that?" the kid asked. Harris said, "Credit!"

Harris even lost that eventually, when his book deal went south. But instead of feeling sorry for himself, after a stern talking to by Miller, he got back on the train again and worked harder. Which is what The Amigos need to do. they've got the cash, but due to a lot of bad judgement lately, they've lost a lot of credit. They need to reverse that, and soon.

[ChaimWitz]

I look at it this way. They bought Toronto and LB to secure them for the series.They invested in a new car and revived the feeder series. They secured a tv contract. They invested 15 million on a new car for CC. The fan base is there and they listen to the fans and get tracks back like RA and LS. Just because some are jealous and want to tear it down ,doesn't diminish what is already there.

It's about the racing and the racing is good!

:)

Well, I think there is more to the real story and I look at it this way:

Long Beach and Toronto are essential to the series survival. Without those two events under the control of the OWRS owners they would probably be either IRL races by now or out of business because Champ Car has no economy at the moment. Recent events prove this and unless there is a realistic plan to confront that reality it is all but over.

The OWRS owners did not "invest in a new Atlantic car". The manufacturer and the series entrants did. Yes, they did post a $2 million dollar prize for the series champion but that is money that they would have had to pay to someone anyhow to fill the field so, why not? Don't underestimate the contribution Mazda and Cooper Tires make here either to both the Atlantic Series and to ChampCar overall. It is less about dollars than it is about credibility. Atlantic is its own well run eco system and it is healthier than its larger sibling.

The oft-mentioned TV Contract that was supposed to be our salvation has been anything but. By direct comparison with the IRL we look like losers now. It is also a very expensive time buy which so far has delivered value far below its cost. I did not think a zero rating was possible until the two European races proved it on ESPN Classic. Still, ABC an ESPN are better than what we had before on the NASCAR Channel but this is still a losing proposition.

As far as the owners "investing $15 Million in new a new car", I sincerely doubt that. Like in Atlantic, the manufacturer and the series entrants made the investments and from what I can see the manufacturer must be disappointed at the low car count and total number of cars sold which had to have fallen below all the bold promises of one year ago.

As far as Road America and Laguna Seca being back on the schedule, I think this has more to do with having nowhere else to race on American soil as it does with listening to us fans. If they had listened to most of us, they would have never left these beautiful permanent circuits in the first place (this really bothers me). What's more I hear that they are now coming back to these tracks that they dumped as something akin to a free support show for ALMS and Grand-Am just like they did with in Las Vegas where they were a support show for NASCAR Craftsman Trucks. That, my friends, is the fast lane to oblivion.

Then there is the fan base. If we have such a big and powerful fan base where are all of us when the series needs us most? People aren't watching our races on TV and they are not coming to our races in numbers sufficient to keep the majority of our events viable. Something does not add up... just like Motorock, Korea, China, Phoenix, San Jose and soon, Vegas.

Finally, you mention jealousy as a root motivation for all the strife. A rational person can clearly see it is something else: It is about ego, power and control. So far our guys are 90 points behind with 2 minutes left in the fourth quarter of the Ego Bowl. It doesn't look good but we don't need to lose everything to prove how all-knowing and superior a few brave billionaires are compared to the rest of us peasants. IMHO, the OWRS owners just need to get real and let us all get on with one series and stop this sad charade. I really can't see any other way. I suspect I am not alone in feeling this way.

Let's put it all into perspective. The 100 million dollar fine levied against McLaren today by the FIA could probably buy any major racing series in the world outside of NASCAR. This number probably only represents 1/6th or less of McLaren's total annual turnover. What we are all arguing about is penny on the sidewalk to these guys. They wouldn't even bother to bend over to pick it up, let alone notice it. To see posts that perpetuate the fantasy that ChampCar is somehow a viable challenger to F1 is amusing. Please get over yourselves!

You still think it's about the racing and the racing is good but the world is voting with eyeballs, feet and wallets and it doesn't look promising. What's so hard to understand?

Earth to Kalkhoven! Earth to Kalkhoven! Plan 9 From Outer Space has failed. Commander Kevster, please come in. Do you copy? Please hold your fire. You are hitting your own series with stray Spintron torpedoes. We have severe damage on all decks and the crew is beaming down to planet Vison. Come in Commander Kevster!!! Aren't Privates Sanguin and Papyrus passing along our distress messages? We are falling out of orbit and our Uniphasers have gone dead... The Farce Shields are down again! May Day! May Dayyyyy!

[Chaparral66]

I think ABC/ESPN was a good idea (I think staying on SPEED would've been good too, but not everybody gets SPEED). However, the fact that the IRL gets shifted around from ABC to ESPN, ESPN2 doesn't seem to hurt it as much as it does Champ Car, because the network combo throws ESPN Classic into the mix, which is harder to find. Plus, Champ Car doesn't get nearly the promotion that the IRL does, which gets promoted on Champ Car shows! If I were The Amigos, I would have specified no shows on ESPN Classic. New races looking to increase its audience doesn't seem a good fit for ESPN Classic, but that's just me.

From ChainWitz:
As far as Road America and Laguna Seca being back on the schedule, I think this has more to do with having nowhere else to race on American soil as it does with listening to us fans. If they had listened to most of us, they would have never left these beautiful permanent circuits in the first place (this really bothers me). What's more I hear that they are now coming back to these tracks that they dumped as something akin to a free support show for ALMS and Grand-Am just like they did with in Las Vegas where they were a support show for NASCAR Craftsman Trucks. That, my friends, is the fast lane to oblivion.

A very astute observation. Many people on this forum seem to be reaching a simultaneous conclusion that the concept of bringing the race to the urban environment is having inconsistent success. What works in somes cities does not spell across the board success. With the ALMS and Grand AM (another split in racing, but apparently not nearly on the same hostile level as the one
in open wheel, they have stayed true to their mission and both are growing at a steady rate, with multiple manufacturer involvement and great driving talent from all over the world. And yet, both series have American talent competing against all these foriegn drivers; Americans like Scott Pruett in Grand AM and Byran Herta in ALMS, with occasional cameos by NASCAR drivers like Jeff Gordon and Carl Edwards, which also draws interest in the series. It's not the IRL that shares so much with the old CART, it's the ALMS and Grand AM. I think opwn wheel still holds an allure, but there is no denying the high car counts and driver line-ups in sportscar racing right now.

Once more, from ChaimWitz:
You still think it's about the racing and the racing is good but the world is voting with eyeballs, feet and wallets and it doesn't look promising. What's so hard to understand?

As much as as the lack of promotion and chaotic nature of announced venues only to be cancelled is having an affect on open wheel racing, it's the split itself that's keeping the fans away. As I have responded to anyone who's asked me, whenever you have this type of upheaval in a sport, the fans fade and stay away until the matter is resolved. The split in AOWR isn't resolved yet. And people are sick of it. We all in here are sick of it. And no matter what the perception is on who is on top in this split, or who won, or who has the most cars or the biggest race, or the most paying sponsors, it doesn't make any difference. The only way either series will get any of of their fans back in any great numbers -- if that is even possible at this point --, is to get back together. Resolve it this way, and just like NFL Football, Major League Baseball, and NHL Hockey (albeit more slowly), Open Wheel Racing stands a good chance to come back.

That's what should happen next.

[john2112]

I look at it this way. They bought Toronto and LB to secure them for the series.They invested in a new car and revived the feeder series. They secured a tv contract. They invested 15 million on a new car for CC. The fan base is there and they listen to the fans and get tracks back like RA and LS. Just because some are jealous and want to tear it down ,doesn't diminish what is already there.

It's about the racing and the racing is good!

:)

sanguine,

There’s a process that large corporations go through from time to time called “product viability assessment,” and one element of this is basically asking the question: knowing what we know today, would we launch this product/product-line/service/brand?

Part of the process, and the major reason it’s used is because oftentimes, department or product managers get so wrapped up in making their product-line successful - they can sometimes lose sight of the product’s “viability” in the marketplace.

The whole thing can be very productive when it’s handled by an objective or third-party entity, simply because the emotion and personal interests are factored out of the equation.

Sifting through all the opinions, emotions and whatnot, you get to a point where you ask: knowing what we know now, is CCWS economically viable?

-John

[CCWS77]

CCWS promotions might have lack of credibility. There certainly are negative things that can be said. But If CC folded tomorrow I would still be blindsided because there is no reason to believe that is going to happen - reason being you guys constantly posting all the negativity don't have any better credibility. For life of me I dont understand why if things are so bad people can't stick to the facts when complaining. Don't you understand if there is an actual problem then sticking to the truth is more effective argument then rediculous exagerations and complaints.

Just as one example of what I mean. If people argued the logistics of Vegas wasnt working and it is too expensive and complicted to setup the event, so it wont be back, well that would actually be a believable problem based on the facts of how Vegas turned out. Instead naysayers promote the total nonsense that the event wasnt actually well attended. Fiction. I was there, the biggest problems were logistics, long lines and overcrowding.

There are real problems with CC no doubt, but things like this make most of the posts in threads like this have absoloutly no credibility. You cant even get what is wrong right.

[ChaimWitz]

CCWS promotions might have lack of credibility. There certainly are negative things that can be said. But If CC folded tomorrow I would still be blindsided because there is no reason to believe that is going to happen - reason being you guys constantly posting all the negativity don't have any better credibility. For life of me I dont understand why if things are so bad people can't stick to the facts when complaining. Don't you understand if there is an actual problem then sticking to the truth is more effective argument then rediculous exagerations and complaints.

Just as one example of what I mean. If people argued the logistics of Vegas wasnt working and it is too expensive and complicted to setup the event, so it wont be back, well that would actually be a believable problem based on the facts of how Vegas turned out. Instead naysayers promote the total nonsense that the event wasnt actually well attended. Fiction. I was there, the biggest problems were logistics, long lines and overcrowding.

There are real problems with CC no doubt, but things like this make most of the posts in threads like this have absoloutly no credibility. You cant even get what is wrong right.

Okay, CCWS77, believe what you want but the facts don't lie. There were only 20,000 spectator seats plus 800 hospitality seats at the Vegas GP. It wasn't sold out which you could plainly see in person and on TV. As for the "overcrowding", that was a result of poor planning and logistics that made getting to and from the event a hassle. There was originally a plan for a pedestrian bridge that would have made this issue go away but this bridge crossed railroad tracks and the organizers failed to contact the appropriate federal agencies in time so they were not permitted to erect them.

As for the other "doom and gloom" on this board, I think the facts again speak for themselves. There is a pattern here. What is posted as "negative speculation" all to often soon becomes grim reality. Some on these boards choose to live in denial, others, like me, get angry at having been lied to and led on, some chose to shoot the messenger rather than heed the message and a few troll and probably delight at our misery. Regardless, this is a very sad time and more very bad news is most certainly coming. Be ready for it.

The name of this thread is "what happens next" and the truth is I live in dread of it when it comes to Champ Car. There are hints elsewhere on these boards that fit with what I am hearing from people who are connected, savvy and have been far more right than wrong so far when it comes to the Champ Car's true circumstances.

Every day brings me closer to a conclusion that there will be one series sooner rather than later. I used to think it would be CART, then Champ Car that would prevail in this battle for the heart and soul of our sport. Like most of you here, I believed we held the moral high ground and we all had been wronged soley by Tony George and what he has done to our once great sport. Now I see things differently. After, Jerkin' Joe, the Pookster and now "The Amigos", the blame is now on both sides equally and the pain is felt by all who love this sport. The path we are on now is exactly what TG and his people were probably worried about. They should have been. Because "our strategy" doesn't make sense and it isn't working. Okay, we all say, “but.. but .. but… CART was great! He killed it! “ Well, Champ Car could have been great and the OWRS owners are killing it from what are now seeing. But this isn’t about all that old baggage anymore. It is about the overall survival of the sport. Chapparral66 said it best:

“The split in AOWR isn't resolved yet. And people are sick of it. We all in here are sick of it. And no matter what the perception is on who is on top in this split, or who won, or who has the most cars or the biggest race, or the most paying sponsors, it doesn't make any difference. The only way either series will get any of their fans back in any great numbers -- if that is even possible at this point --, is to get back together. Resolve it this way, and just like NFL Football, Major League Baseball, and NHL Hockey (albeit more slowly), Open Wheel Racing stands a good chance to come back.

That's what should happen next.”

Amen Chapparrall66. Amen.

Yes, we all need to think about what happens next. There will surely be other events that will shake what little faith we have left but, as we have seen, many posters here are devoted fans who will hang on to the bitter end and I respect that. On the other hand, please imagine what all this does to ChampCar's already awful business climate. I have lived that reality and it is beyond depressing. No amount of fanatical cheerleading can erase the fact that far more money goes out the door than comes in the door when one is involved with ChampCar as a "business".

This year now proves to me and others I know who are promoters, team owners, drivers and sponsors that there is simply no hope of Champcar's business climate changing for the positive so, being a realist, I have to ask: what is the point of this going forward? If Kevin, Gerry, Dan or Paul read these boards I hope they are asking themselves that question and they do the right thing. If you guys are indeed reading this, I just want to say thank for trying and thanks for the good things that you have done. I also want to say that it is clear that you need to put aside your egos and the dream of taking down TG and challenging Bernie. If the first guy is kicking your arse, how the hell are going to take on the guy in London?

Many of you here are saying to yourself, yeah, yeah, yeah, ChaimWitz, heard it all before but who the hell are you and what the hell do you know that we don't? Chaim, all you post here is baseless speculation and all that matters is that the racing is good. (Sanguin, I wrote this paragraph to save you the time and trouble since you have been so busy lately trying to extinguish doubt on these boards).

Okay, whatever! Just realize that there are now far more people who ask themselves this question: "Geeezzz, this does not look good... what the hell is next for Champ Car?

[luvracin]

Have you seen what's going on in F1? Besides all the tracks they dumped, they have a spy case going on. Manufacturers could be out for the season.
Teams go under and get sold every year.The drivers come and go.Compared to their dramas, CC 's are nothing.

HAHA!!! Dude, you make me laugh!

[sanguin]

CCWS promotions might have lack of credibility. There certainly are negative things that can be said. But If CC folded tomorrow I would still be blindsided because there is no reason to believe that is going to happen - reason being you guys constantly posting all the negativity don't have any better credibility. For life of me I dont understand why if things are so bad people can't stick to the facts when complaining. Don't you understand if there is an actual problem then sticking to the truth is more effective argument then rediculous exagerations and complaints.

Just as one example of what I mean. If people argued the logistics of Vegas wasnt working and it is too expensive and complicted to setup the event, so it wont be back, well that would actually be a believable problem based on the facts of how Vegas turned out. Instead naysayers promote the total nonsense that the event wasnt actually well attended. Fiction. I was there, the biggest problems were logistics, long lines and overcrowding.

There are real problems with CC no doubt, but things like this make most of the posts in threads like this have absoloutly no credibility. You cant even get what is wrong right.

good post

Here's a quote- "Attendance at the inaugural 2007 event was estimated to be 40,000 fans on race day. This surpassed the amount of seats available on the course's temporary grandstands facilitating an expansion for the 2008 season." That's not counting friday or saturday. While so called "insiders" can only "speculate". The promoter was happy with the event.

Regardless how much D&G they try to spin, in the end ,other series want CC events ,CC teams ,CC drivers, CC fans. The foundation is there, events, car ,engine, feeder series and that's not going away. All this makes CC viable.

[ChaimWitz]

good post

Here's a quote- "Attendance at the inaugural 2007 event was estimated to be 40,000 fans on race day. This surpassed the amount of seats available on the course's temporary grandstands facilitating an expansion for the 2008 season." That's not counting friday or saturday. While so called "insiders" can only "speculate". The promoter was happy with the event.

Regardless how much D&G they try to spin, in the end ,other series want CC events ,CC teams ,CC drivers, CC fans. The foundation is there, events, car ,engine, feeder series and that's not going away. All this makes CC viable.

The promoter tried to sell the press on the idea that there were 80,000 there on race day too. They are still laughing at that and the 40,000 number they eventually gave out. Anyhow, believe what you will Sanguin... but there were many empty seats in the 12.000 seat stands across from the pits and the remaining grandstands, in most cases these held approximately 500 people each. There were simply not enough of them to make it work. I know many in the media and they openly scoff at man in charge of the event and they also know that Vegas was a huge loser for the promoter and it won’t be back… as a Champ Car race.

But you are here to keep a finger in the dike so reality won’t come pouring in. So I suspect that the posts here must bug you because you probably know the truth and you are asking yourself who are these people and how the hell do they know these things? (Time to attack our credibility now? bla, bla, bla).

My guess is that you work for OWRS in some fashion or that you are one of the Internet "experts" we all know Kalkhoven and Gentilozzi confide in. If so, say hi to both and tell them the truth is out there and it is now impossible to stop people from seeing it.

Please share with us, just why is it so important to deny the truth and the reality of the situation anyhow? If OWRS were attempting to address their situation, a rational person would expect honesty and communication. All we seem to get is reactive spin and delusional justification of things that can't really be justified from the Amigos, ChampCar’s management and people like you. Why? Just what are you and these guys trying to hide?

Sanguin, I agree that there are still great things about Champ Car. What we disagree about is what should be done with them. I am deeply worried that these remaining positives will be burned at the altar of the Amigo's egos. So, to me, staying the course is doomed to certain failure. This just sickens me.

I think most of the few people left who care now realize without a doubt, that one series is the only hope and that, in the end, that one series will not be called ChampCar. I am sure that you and the OWRS owners want another outcome. I want to be an Astronaut too. Neither is gonna happen.

Ground control to Commander Kevster. Come in Commander Kevster... Your five year mission to seek out brave new markets for the CART Ship Champ Car has been terminated due to lack of results. Please return to base and turn in your Uniphaser. I am sorry but your deposit will not be refunded. But, since you have paid your dues, you still have a chance to be a leading promoter, an engine supplier, and a team owner in a vibrant unified series ... but only if you return to Earth now. Do you copy, Commander Kevster? Do you copy?

[sanguin]

What is doomed to fail? A business plan that depends on the failure or killing off of another series.

[jjjanos]

We're pretty tolerant of opposing points of view on this board. Healthy debate is good for everyone. However, as I've discussed with you in PMs, occasionally you need to say something positive.

I think the women wearing the ChampCar spandex suits are damn fine looking. In fact, I am positive of it.

In particular, I would like to ask the women holding the Neel Jani marker in this photo http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Photos/2007/By400/20070831P_0105.jpg a question regarding her family tree.


This board is for ChampCar fans to discuss among themselves the series and racing which they like.

Excellent. Everybody, let's agree to meet back here in 37 days. I'll bring some nacho chips, Indycool can I put you down for salsa? Anyone have a good recipie for deviled eggs? Who can bring the pretzels?


If you are, as you've claimed, a person involved in the series this is also not the place to air your personal concerns. I'd suggest a phone call to one or all of the principles instead.

Inquiring minds would like to know whether this is unsolicited professional advice or a statement made ex cathedra? I would hate to think that a bona-fide insider (a status yet to be confirmed regarding ChaimWitz and thus must be accepted with a copious quantity of sodium chloride) would be encouraged to not participate.

[Papyrus]

ChiamWiz you are a person who is delious and cant see the truth all true fans can see that you are not one and we all see you only want FTG and the IRK to win what they can neverr win because the grandson is not a busines man like those who keep our sport alive against the dreams of all who want us dead. We speak with our business men and they are smarter and they believe since we have survived since 1909 ,,, We know the truth of what they seek and it is not the same as FTG, BE and the Little France,,, so why do you attack us on a place that is here for true fans to share all the positive our series is? Sanguin written we have fans when other series dont and the racing is good,,, our plan dosnt depends on another series being killed,,, The facts are there and you dont see,,, ChampCar throws a party and race breaks out,,, the IRK throws a race and a girl fight breaks out,,, whats so hard to understand?

[Jag_Warrior]

I think the women wearing the ChampCar spandex suits are damn fine looking. In fact, I am positive of it.

In particular, I would like to ask the women holding the Neel Jani marker in this photo http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Photos/2007/By400/20070831P_0105.jpg a question regarding her family tree.

Do me a favor: find out if she's got a sister... preferably a twin. :s mokin:




Excellent. Everybody, let's agree to meet back here in 37 days. I'll bring some nacho chips, Indycool can I put you down for salsa? Anyone have a good recipie for deviled eggs? Who can bring the pretzels?

Put me down for the deviled eggs. I'll also bring my famous wild boar sausage biscuits. But how will we recognize each other? I know... I'll be wearing my blue Nacional Senna cap. Maybe you fellows could wear your TrackForum t-shirts? :D



These days, American Open Wheel Racing forums are almost as entertaining as an episode of Meerkat Manor (except for the fact that Meerkat Manor receives higher acclaim than either of these sad racing series). I'm just trying to figure out which side of the split is the Whiskers and which is the Commandos.

[Hoop-98]

I have my Inaugural San Jose Grand Prix T-Shirt, but since it's going to be a collectors item I'm not sure if I want to expose it to wear and tear :)

rh

[ChaimWitz]

With all that has happened and will soon happen I believe ChampCar has been caught in a perfect storm that could be the perfect opportunity to put this sport back on path to a solid future. Despite the negative observations that I have posted here I do still love the best things about CART/ChampCar and want them to survive but like many, I no longer believe in ChampCar or the men who own it. Do you blame me?

My hope is that something good finally comes of all this after the final buzzer sounds in the Ego Bowl and we all get to move on and look forward to being enthusiastic again about seeing the best in American wheel racing together again in a truly great series that reflects the hard lessons of the past 13 1/2 years since Tony George announced the IRL. Now that the leaders of our series gotten the chance to take their turns at the wheel trying to prove they are the real suicide kings I just hope they have had their fill of scaring the feces out of all of us who are but mere passengers on their Three Hour Cruise without the Skipper, Gilligan or the Professor. At least we had a couple of Thurston Howell III types to make it fun for a little while. The truth is all of us are marooned and it is getting old.

Sure, "we" and the OWRS owners have some great races, great teams, great drivers, an awesome feeder series and some excellent people working in HQ and we have Cosworth. It is clear that these aren't enough because we are now going backwards again. It really is a "three strikes" and you’re out mentality in business and we are there now in the minds of most.

Okay, "we" can go on claiming the heritage of the American National Championship but that is getting much harder to do as each year passes. The truth is that one race has defined the American National Championship since 1909 and that one race is still at the heart of the problem and the opportunity.

We all have choices to make in life. For many of us who work in the business, the choice is now about being part of the problem or part of the solution.

I choose the later and that involves seeing things as they are, not as I wish the to be. That is actually the only way we can all do the things that need to be done to create what we want in life. So, I am going to give posting to this topic a rest and work on that rather than complaining about it. My frustration has been showing in my posts and to those I may have offended personally, I apologize. If I disagree with you it is only about perception of what is fact and with your ideas, not your right to think what you think. I do appreciate the fact everyone cares about something I care about passionately and I am sure most of us here only want the best for the sport.

Good luck everyone, -CW

[jjjanos]

Maybe you fellows could wear your TrackForum t-shirts? :D

I will be wearing my Tag's Victory Suit

[FlatChatRacer]

ChaimWitz,

You are not offending anyone and there is no need to apologise. However, you have to realise that there is a lot of sensitivity on the forum about the state of CCWS. Particularly, if you tend to present the negative aspects, of which there are many, over the positive ones.

Most, if not all of us, realise that the current situation is dire and likely on a knife edge in terms of survival, but there are some who just don't want to read it right now.

I am comfortable discussing both the positive and negative. I can probably do this because I am not allowing myself to get emotionally involved and getting my hopes up. I hope the series survives and I will be happy if it does, but if it goes away or merges with the IRL, I will not be happy, but accept it.

One thing you have to realise, no matter what you think of the CCWS leaders, is that they took a risk and spent their own money to ensure the series survival.

I didn't have the finances, the bravery nor the sheer audacity to do as they did in 2004. So, for giving it a try, I salute and applaud them.

So, does that mean we should just be cheerleaders? No, not at all, however whilst we criticise, we can also praise as well.

At least they tried! ......and are still trying, I should add.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think no one should apolgize for their tastes, it is a free country, or countries in this case. I have been a loyal Champ Car supporter and still am, but I reserve the right to demand a 100 % on the part of the Ownership to make this thing fly, and I think I have a right as a fan to criticize when I don't like the direction of the series. Right now, the professionalism of management has NOT been evident, and it has made it really tough. That said, I have been positive when they give me something to be happy about, and I all I ask of my fellow race fans is to demand more. Don't be happy with what it is....until Champ Car either succeeds or dies, I will be a fan, but how enthusiastic Iam will waver if I don't like what I see. It is hard not to like Kevin Kalkoven from what I have seen, but his partners at times have more than annoyed me, and in the end, the proof is in the results. You have a 17 car series that cancelled two races this year with hardly any TV audience with great live gates. It is a mixed bag of results, and after 4 years, I expected more....

[Chaparral66]

Just a note to anyone concerned about the recent criticism of Champ Car in these forums: it's not dislike or even hate that drives these comments, it's a genuine and passionate love for the sport, and that will always be a positive. It's also a means to get The Amigos to reconsider their strategy that clearly is lacking in some areas. If we all didn't love the sport in general and Champ Car in particular as much as we do, we'd have given up on it a long time ago. We can't just blind ourselves to the truth when it happens just because someone's feeling gets hurt.

Truth is, Champ Car has made some good things happen this year, like racing at Mt. Tremblant. I just want to see more good things like this happen. If we can get more good things to happen, nobody will have to worry about the enthusiasm in this forum leaping to new heights.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chapparral, some people want everyone to wave the poms and never question the series direction. Of course, when it goes into bankruptcy or out of business, they will all be in denial and looking for the black helicoptors and pseudo government agencies hired by Bernie Ecclestone who did the deed; but the reality is what we are questioning are questions any sane, rational business type will be asking. We are questioning the marketing and management of the series we love, and THAT, is healthy because they do know what is being said on here, and they have to know if joe fan can ask these questions, then they are in trouble and they need to take steps.

[BrentJackson]

Just a note to anyone concerned about the recent criticism of Champ Car in these forums: it's not dislike or even hate that drives these comments, it's a genuine and passionate love for the sport, and that will always be a positive. It's also a means to get The Amigos to reconsider their strategy that clearly is lacking in some areas. If we all didn't love the sport in general and Champ Car in particular as much as we do, we'd have given up on it a long time ago. We can't just blind ourselves to the truth when it happens just because someone's feeling gets hurt.

Truth is, Champ Car has made some good things happen this year, like racing at Mt. Tremblant. I just want to see more good things like this happen. If we can get more good things to happen, nobody will have to worry about the enthusiasm in this forum leaping to new heights.

Chaparral, I owe you a cold one. :beer:

The trolls most of us can pick out pretty quick, but I think its clear most of us are getting vocal because we care, and want the series to succeed. I don't wish they'd die by any means, but I think they need to nail down who they are and go for whatever that is.

[FlatChatRacer]

I think no one should apolgize for their tastes, it is a free country, or countries in this case. I have been a loyal Champ Car supporter and still am, but I reserve the right to demand a 100 % on the part of the Ownership to make this thing fly, and I think I have a right as a fan to criticize when I don't like the direction of the series. Right now, the professionalism of management has NOT been evident, and it has made it really tough.


Mark,

I agree that anyone is free to state their opinion on the current state of Champ Car and the job that it's leaders are doing. I also agree that based on current news, the series is not doing that well and the leaders do not appear to be managing the situation very well. In fact, it is fair to say they are doing a poor job.

However, they decided to save the series in 2004, and all I was trying to say is that they deserved to be commended for taking the risk and spending a lot of money to do so. They tried and as far as I know are still trying. Granted, things aren't going too well and the future looks bleak, unless they get their collective acts together and run the series in a professional manner.

I also like you, reserve the right to criticize. As a fan, I too expect them to perform. I was very happy when they took over in 2004 and a seemingly brighter future was in front of us. Well, it hasn't worked out that way and in my opinion the series will be gone soon. My prediction is that it will either collapse in 2008 or 2009.

I don't like it, but I really can't see any other outcome based on the actions, or lack of action from the leadership, and the bad news that seems to be a regular occurrence these days.

I hope I am wrong and would be happy to be reminded of this in the future, if it means we have a strong, successful and prosperous Champ Car in years to come.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark,

I agree that anyone is free to state their opinion on the current state of Champ Car and the job that it's leaders are doing. I also agree that based on current news, the series is not doing that well and the leaders do not appear to be managing the situation very well. In fact, it is fair to say they are doing a poor job.

However, they decided to save the series in 2004, and all I was trying to say is that they deserved to be commended for taking the risk and spending a lot of money to do so. They tried and as far as I know are still trying. Granted, things aren't going too well and the future looks bleak, unless they get their collective acts together and run the series in a professional manner.

I also like you, reserve the right to criticize. As a fan, I too expect them to perform. I was very happy when they took over in 2004 and a seemingly brighter future was in front of us. Well, it hasn't worked out that way and in my opinion the series will be gone soon. My prediction is that it will either collapse in 2008 or 2009.

I don't like it, but I really can't see any other outcome based on the actions, or lack of action from the leadership, and the bad news that seems to be a regular occurrence these days.

I hope I am wrong and would be happy to be reminded of this in the future, if it means we have a strong, successful and prosperous Champ Car in years to come.

All of us want Champ Car to succeed, except maybe a few trolls. That said, I wont put my brain in neutral while Iam funnelled the Kool Aid.

I have never once said the Amigo's were not brave with their cash in the first few years. I was with the program for the most part, but it has become clear that they are moving into a new phase of moving offshore and only going to events that pay them the money up front, and not really doing the due diligence on the promotors. Phoenix was the proof I needed in my mind to say that Champ Car was not paying attention to the details. I has done them no good to spend the money for all the events and Cosworth, to then not spend the extra few bucks for the better TV contracts and promote the series properly.

As far as Iam concerned, this year has undone all the good work they did, but hey, it is their money. Just if I keep finding other things to watch because I cant get their races on TV when they are supposed to be on, at some point, I will not look any more. It is almost to that point now. I would prefer they were on tape delay a week late then what I have to do to see them on TV now. In Australia, they had NO outlet until half way through the season. I don't think too many Americans are happy with the ESPN backhand they get by being on Classic. The broadcast when I have seen it is boring and almost cutrate. It does them no good to continue this way.

It does them no good to go to Europe when they have done so little to consolidate and grow their native market. So call me names or argue with me or not, but I stand by what I said earlier. If this series dies in the next two years, it will be no one's fault but the Amigos......it isn't like I haven't tried to be a fan, but they are leaving me behind.....

[pickaxe]

ChiamWiz you are a person who is delious and cant see the truth all true fans can see that you are not one and we all see you only want FTG and the IRK to win what they can neverr win because the grandson is not a busines man like those who keep our sport alive against the dreams of all who want us dead. We speak with our business men and they are smarter and they believe since we have survived since 1909 ,,, We know the truth of what they seek and it is not the same as FTG, BE and the Little France,,, so why do you attack us on a place that is here for true fans to share all the positive our series is? Sanguin written we have fans when other series dont and the racing is good,,, our plan dosnt depends on another series being killed,,, The facts are there and you dont see,,, ChampCar throws a party and race breaks out,,, the IRK throws a race and a girl fight breaks out,,, whats so hard to understand?

Somebody has got this parody spot on :D

[Hoop-98]

Somebody has got this parody spot on :D

Scary huh :)

[FlatChatRacer]

It does them no good to go to Europe when they have done so little to consolidate and grow their native market. So call me names or argue with me or not, but I stand by what I said earlier. If this series dies in the next two years, it will be no one's fault but the Amigos......it isn't like I haven't tried to be a fan, but they are leaving me behind.....

Mark,

Fair enough, and please note that I have never called you names and I hope no else has done so either.

I enjoy the discussion and particularly the premise of this thread. Like you I agree that it is hard to stay a committed fan when the ship seems to be rudderless.

By the way, can you please explain what "drinking the KoolAid" means? I realise that it is something to do with being gullible, but why KoolAid?

[garyshell]

Mark,

Fair enough, and please note that I have never called you names and I hope no else has done so either.

I enjoy the discussion and particularly the premise of this thread. Like you I agree that it is hard to stay a committed fan when the ship seems to be rudderless.

By the way, can you please explain what "drinking the KoolAid" means? I realise that it is something to do with being gullible, but why KoolAid?


It's a reference to the Jonestown mass suicide in Nov. of 1978, where the followers of Jim Jones drank cyanide laced Kool-aid or as wikipedia refers to it "flavor aid"

Gary

[FlatChatRacer]

Gary,

Thank you. I genuinely did not know that.

[Ruben Barrios]

Cheeze Whiz,,, I know, I've seen,,, it's clear, to the ones who read and understand,,, the fight will be fought through victory and upon wrath of the liked track of speed,,, my sources say "outlook not clear" and thus eight ball convertible,,, non-believers need not apply 2008 to surprise all,,,, good sausage,,, great brattwurst,,, the sky is not falling,,,,,,all is clear with patience and paperclips,,,,

[Chaparral66]

OK, now that we've all weighed in on this, what can we as fans do to fix this mess? I asked this same question over in the IRL forum.

[jjjanos]

OK, now that we've all weighed in on this, what can we as fans do to fix this mess? I asked this same question over in the IRL forum.


Nothing. The war isn't being fought for our benefit. It is being fought for theirs.

[Chaparral66]

Nothing. The war isn't being fought for our benefit. It is being fought for theirs.

While I'm not THAT hopeless, the last things you said are spot on target.

[heelntoe]

Cheeze Whiz,,, I know, I've seen,,, it's clear, to the ones who read and understand,,, the fight will be fought through victory and upon wrath of the liked track of speed,,, my sources say "outlook not clear" and thus eight ball convertible,,, non-believers need not apply 2008 to surprise all,,,, good sausage,,, great brattwurst,,, the sky is not falling,,,,,,all is clear with patience and paperclips,,,,

Paper, go back to that other playground, will ya' please :)

[FlatChatRacer]

In keeping with the Thread Title.....when will we see the 2008 schedule?

This will be very interesting, and depending on how many dates are confirmed, to be confirmed or tentative, it will certainly shed some light on what happens next!

[ChaimWitz]

I am back, thanks for the kind posts regarding my last one. It now hear that the problems in Mexico City are as bad as feared. A very good source tells me that a number of Mexico City event staff were laid off today and that more bad news may be coming next week. Will somebody at ChampCar please say it ain't so? I am begining to think that Surfers may be the last ChampCar race in history. If true, this is a tragic end.

[sanguin]

Actually ,the Mexico City race makes money.

[jjjanos]

Applying your standards... link please.

[sanguin]

Federico Alaman, director of sports event of OCESA/CIE confirm to this diary that they don't have any $$$$ problems or $$$$$ lose in the years that the series has been visiting the Hermanos Rodriguez racetrack,...

"We haven't lose ($$$) at all and that's why we keep doing it, but when they do, it is not viable, we are here to generate money, we live from sell tickets.

taken from a Mexican newspaper article translated from a Hispanic poster from CCF.

[jjjanos]

That's not a link. It's a quote and from an extremist site as well.

Linke = url.

[sanguin]

"I found in today's edition of Mexico City sports newspaper "Record" an interview with Federico Alaman, who is the responsable at OCESA/CIE for the sports events promoting and organization activities ...By Mario Palafox"

Here's where you can find it.

I'm still waiting for a link about Vegas too.

[Quetch]

So jjjanos, you basically say that Net-Ranger, the Mexican Champ Car fan who posted this at CCF, and who is also a poster at these forums is a liar, and made up the article and the quotes from Alamán? I ask this because you seem to be questioning the validity of the information posted by sanguin.

[jjjanos]

[quote="quetch"]So jjjanos, you basically say that Net-Ranger, the Mexican Champ Car fan who posted this at CCF, and who is also a poster at these forums is a liar, and made up the article and the quotes from Alam&#225]

I don't know who posted it at the ChampCarFascists. I don't even know if it was posted at ChampCarFascists. All I know is that someone here said it was posted at ChampCarFascists. I'm more than willing to extend the benefit of inductive/deductive reasoning to people. I'm just not willing to extend it to those who won't extend the same benefit.

[CCFanatic]

What happens next. We can all go to the bar and have drinks. I heard Raikkonen's a frequenter at this new club in London.

[Quetch]

Okay Starter, whatever. Feel free to delete that post if you find it offensive, and please delete my profile as well. I had a nice three years posting at Motorsport Forums, but this place has become just as bad as CCF, just with the opposite biases. Like fascists and communists, to quote jjanos. Unfortunately, currently there are no English language fan forums to discuss Champ Car racing, if we use that term in its original meaning. Fortunately, there is a small group of Champ Car fans in my native Hungary with nice meetings, going to races and discussing this fantastic sport in a sensible manner, pulling for its success but without drinking the koolaid of the owners and the management. Bottom line, what happens next is the race at Sufers Paradise and I will have a good time watching and and discussing it with other Champ Car fans. I wish the same to all the other people, but I think they will just continue bitching and moaning about things they can't change, and if they don't agree with each other, demand a link, of course.

[tbyars]

Sanguin, if Mexico counts on ticket sales to make money, how do they intend to make money this year? It is 7 weeks from the race. There are no ticket outlets, no tickets available ANYWHERE.

Does that mean you are saying there will be no Mexico race this year?

[beachbum]

tbyars, don't argue with an "expert". They are always right.

Here is MY OPINION. There are no links, so Mr. Expert don't even bother to ask. I have my opinion, and you have yours. And I am tired on hearing your pointless drivel.

After 350+ posts we have established that no one knows what’s next. We are all speculating. Why? Because CC management doesn’t seem to know what is next.

I hate conspiracy theories since most fly in the fact of known fact, but there is something odd concerning the Mexico race. First, there is almost zero information on the race, ticket, promotion, etc. Yet, good drivers are being dumped for Mexican drivers who "might" be bringing money, so that only makes any sense if the race will happen. My take is that the race was in serious trouble and probably wouldn't happen in a rational world. But after the other cancellations, the amigos now feel it has to happen, just to save face and keep Gerry happy. Saving face is a big deal for people with big egos, and they have plenty of that. If that is the case, making money isn't a concern. They are just doing anything possible to avoid cancellation. If that includes some last minute driver changes, so be it. The Mexican drivers are there to try to get any meager Mexican support and prevent being thrown out of the country.

My conspiracy theory is that CC management is behind Dalziel getting replaced. PCM is on the lease program and CC could easily make life difficult if they didn’t cooperate.

So what happens next (after Surfers) will be a race in Mexico. With no promotion it will be a flop, and a just big club race for the CC owners club. So even if it has no spectators, they can claim they didn't cancel and they didn’t throw the promoter – Forsythe – under the bus.

[ChaimWitz]

beachbum... I agree 100% with what you have written. It is a disappointing situation to watch this once vibrant race slip to this point. I am still hearing that it is uncertain that the race will actually take place. Now Robin Miller nailed us again when commenting about the cynical last minute driver swaps:

"Two More Black Eyes For ChampCar"

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40435/

Don't get me wrong, I think David Martinez is a potential future star and Mario has had some great days in a Champ Car but this situation is so transparent. I really think this all revolves around the promoter contract and who gets left holding the bag if/when a race gets cancelled. Viva Las Vegas too.

There is nothing coming from ChampCar on any of this and I have to wonder why.

[sanguin]

Why is CC held to a different standard than other series that substitute drivers? Nascar has many ,many "black eyes" ,since they dump their regular drivers for road course specialists at their tracks. Other series bring in nationals also to create local interest. All of a sudden this is a bad thing because CC is doing it? Please!

Robin must be really bored and missing the beachs of Surfers' to try to create drama with this crap. His agenda is clearly showing and its hard to take him serious anymore.

[Chris R]

The problem here is one of the teams is that of a series owner who could likely step up and just add a thrid car for two races - it would be a great show of good faith to the other teams, drivers and fans.

The other team is letting go of their good driver - ok, so the second driver is the onwer's son - but it still does not look good....

For a series thathas been struggling with car count it makes little sense to replace two perfectly good drivers when SOMEONE should be able to just ADD them to the roster for two measley races...

What this situation seems to demonstrate is that NOBODY is willing to put themselves out to make this series succeeds. That is fine - that is thier choice and thier money - but why should I go out of my way to support these guys (OWRS)when it seems like they are hard pressed to support themselves...

Something is very wrong here.....

[Ruben Barrios]

Looking at it with a cold head, my impression is that the owners are counting their losses and just trying to recoup as much as possible with as little investment as possible...

Maybe the 5 year plan was to fill the grid with new teams (using the magic Panoz as bait) and then sell the series for a profit... Plan went wrong and GF said "enough with this crap, I'll wait 'till you bozos put this series under and start again from scratch..."

[garyshell]

Nascar has many ,many "black eyes" ,since they dump their regular drivers for road course specialists at their tracks.

Please explain that little gem of logic. How it replacing an oval track driver with no roadcourse skils with someone who does, in ANY FREAKIN' WAY equate to removing a driver and replacing him with one from the country where the race will be held.

I'm not at all happy to see Servia get the boot, Ryan I don't have strong feelings about either way. But for the life of me I can't see how this has ANYTHING to do with NASCAR teams substituing road course drivers.

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

Ruben Barios makes some great points... that I can see as being credible scenarios.

On the subject of "credible scenarios" and “what happens next”, here are some educated guesses at what the 2008 schedule might look like based upon what I am hearing:

Scenario 1 (Grim - I hear this one most often):

1) Long Beach – April 18-20
2) Laguna Seca – May 16-18
3) Cleveland – June 20 – 22
4) Mt. Tremlbant – June 27 – 29
5) Toronto – July 4-6
6) Edmonton – July 18-20
7) Road America – August 8-10
8) Assen – Late September
9 Zolder (moved because of F1 date conflict) – Early October
10) Surfers – October 17-19

Scenario 2 (This is probably close if OWRS prop$ up Portland and Houston and Dr. Palmer takes a huge leap of faith on CC at Brands):

1) Long Beach – April 18-20
2) Houston – April 25-27
3) Laguna Seca – May 16-18
4) Portland – May 30- June 5
5) Cleveland – June 20 – 22
6) Mt. Tremblant – June 27 – 29
7) Toronto – July 4-6
8) Edmonton July 18-20
9) Road America – August 8-10
10) Assen – Late August or Early September
11) Brands Hatch – September
12 Zolder (moved because of F1 date conflict) – Early October
13) Surfers – October 17-19

Scenario 3 (I think this is what the OWRS owners wants us all to believe):

1) Vegas GP – April 11-13
2) Long Beach – April 18-20
3) Houston – April 25-27
4) Laguna Seca – May 16-18
5) Portland – May 30- June 5
6) Cleveland – June 20 – 22
7) Mt. Tremblant – June 27 – 29
8) Toronto – July 4-6
9) Edmonton July 18-20
10) Road America – August 8-10
11) Assen – Late August
12) Brands Hatch – September
13 Zolder (moved because of F1 date conflict) – Early October
14) Surfers – October 17-19
15) Mexico City – November 7-9
Also possible:
16) Other New International Euro or Arab event
17) Other New International Oz event
18) China - 50/50 at best – Travel costs, calendar conflicts and FIA rules
19) Orlando GP – Why not? These “3 Day Festivals of Speed” work!

There is obviously a huge (credibility) gap between the best and worst case scenarios and given recent events I can’t help but feel more confident in the latter rather than the former.

What do you believe?

[FlatChatRacer]

ChaimWitz,

I agree that Ruben Barrios makes some good points as do you. I have found this thread to be very insightful and interesting. Apart from a few comments from the one poster who chooses to wear some very rose tinted glasses, the comments are on the whole reflective of the current state of Champ Car.

If your worse case prediction of the 2008 schedule is even remotely accurate, then I can't see how any sort of significant sponsors would want to be involved.

I would also like to say that I want to see all the CCWS owners/leaders having a conference together very soon as a show of unity and cohesiveness. Also, please produce a plan for the series.

It's important to portray the right image and confidence.

[FlatChatRacer]

ChaimWitz,

I agree that Ruben Barrios makes some good points as do you. I have found this thread to be very insightful and interesting. Apart from a few comments from the one poster who chooses to wear some very rose tinted glasses, the comments are on the whole reflective of the current state of Champ Car.

If your worse case prediction of the 2008 schedule is even remotely accurate, then I can't see how any sort of significant sponsors would want to be involved.

I would also like to say that I want to see all the CCWS owners/leaders having a conference together very soon as a show of unity and cohesiveness. Also, please produce a plan for the series.

It's important to portray the right image and confidence.

[BrentJackson]

They need to announce alright.

They need to announce that they will be spending the next 5-10 years completely rebuilding the series, and start it off by announcing Steve Johnson's firing, an announcement of new rounds for next year that are 100% go.

Next big sign of confidence? The owners should put up BIG teams next year - like 4 cars. GF runs PT, Servia, Martinez and Robert Wickens, KK runs Vasser, Perera, Phillipe and Alex Gurney. Costs big money? So what. Suck it up.

Get RuSport back full-force, two cars, one in CDW paint with Wilson. The other gets Matos in it, both are long-term deals - 3-4 years minimum.

During the 2008 season, however pathetic it is, make announcements of new rounds. Get back all of America' great road courses. 4-5 ovals join up in 2008. A fourth Canadian round. And run a full-bore promotional effort - TV and print ads, extra TV shows, et cetera - and tell the promoters to get going on that as well. Spare no expense here.

Oh, and scrap Europe and China - no point, too expensive and they need help here in America.

No more games. No more "it'll be better next year." No more broken promises. Results. NOW. That is the only way to get sponsors. The ONLY way.

[FlatChatRacer]

BrentJackson,

I like the sound of your proposals on what should happen next. However, your scenario would cost millions, upon millions of dollars. In my opinion the CCWS owners are not willing to spend the money to do justice to the series.

In fact, I don't think they want to make any more significant financial investments in Champ Car's future.

If the series stays alive, then the future appears to be events that will pay a huge sanction fee to the series. This way the owners can recoup their money.

I just hope that some of the loyal team owners receive a share of those fees. I have no idea whether they do or not though!

[BrentJackson]

I like the sound of your proposals on what should happen next. However, your scenario would cost millions, upon millions of dollars. In my opinion the CCWS owners are not willing to spend the money to do justice to the series.

In fact, I don't think they want to make any more significant financial investments in Champ Car's future.

If the series stays alive, then the future appears to be events that will pay a huge sanction fee to the series. This way the owners can recoup their money.

I just hope that some of the loyal team owners receive a share of those fees. I have no idea whether they do or not though!

If they don't make the investments, don't spend the millions, they won't last much longer. In 2004 they might have been able to get things rolling for less money, but now it isn't an option. It's a neccessity. They don't go big, they don't make it much longer. It's that simple.

[heelntoe]

If they don't make the investments, don't spend the millions, they won't last much longer. In 2004 they might have been able to get things rolling for less money, but now it isn't an option. It's a neccessity. They don't go big, they don't make it much longer. It's that simple.

IMO, they're done as I am certain they won't be spending...ESPN article from yesterday says to expect Power to go to NASCAR and CDW to go to IRL or N/H/L, which, in my opinion, also means IRL as I see PN retiring after this year, and Carl making his last hurrah...stick a fork in CCWS.

[sanguin]

That's your opinion but they're not done by a long shot. You're wrong about Forsythe and you're wrong about NHL,IMO. More rumors from Chicago?


We'll shall see won't we?

:wink:

[tbyars]

>>That's your opinion but they're not done by a long shot.<<

Which, should be pointed out, is nothing but your opinion as well, and your track record ain't so good.

>>You're wrong about Forsythe<<

Where did he say anything aobut Forsythe?

Since you didn't say anything about Power and CDW, I guess you accept that those two are gone.

[sanguin]

>>That's your opinion but they're not done by a long shot.<<

Which, should be pointed out, is nothing but your opinion as well, and your track record ain't so good.

>>You're wrong about Forsythe<<

Where did he say anything aobut Forsythe?

Since you didn't say anything about Power and CDW, I guess you accept that those two are gone.

Unless you have proof, what's to say? It's all rumors for now.

I did say IMO,nobody else does. All this is just yours and my opinion. There are no signs that NHL leaving. BR doesn't want Graham running ovals that are dangerous. IMO.

As far as the GF thing,from this thread- http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=351152#post351152

Mark my words...

[sanguin]

Okay Starter, whatever. Feel free to delete that post if you find it offensive, and please delete my profile as well. I had a nice three years posting at Motorsport Forums, but this place has become just as bad as CCF, just with the opposite biases. Like fascists and communists, to quote jjanos. Unfortunately, currently there are no English language fan forums to discuss Champ Car racing, if we use that term in its original meaning. Fortunately, there is a small group of Champ Car fans in my native Hungary with nice meetings, going to races and discussing this fantastic sport in a sensible manner, pulling for its success but without drinking the koolaid of the owners and the management. Bottom line, what happens next is the race at Sufers Paradise and I will have a good time watching and and discussing it with other Champ Car fans. I wish the same to all the other people, but I think they will just continue bitching and moaning about things they can't change, and if they don't agree with each other, demand a link, of course.

Sad. Quetch, I hope you can find another forum.

[heelntoe]

Unless you have proof, what's to say? It's all rumors for now.

I did say IMO,nobody else does. All this is just yours and my opinion. There are no signs that NHL leaving. BR doesn't want Graham running ovals that are dangerous. IMO.

As far as the GF thing,from this thread- http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=351152#post351152

Mark my words...

ESPN is a pretty good source of information from my perspective and no, I did not say anything about Forsythe.

[sanguin]

ESPN is a pretty good source of information from my perspective and no, I did not say anything about Forsythe.

Isn't this you?


heelntoe
You just don't get it...in any case, back to topic, who would be interested in buying champcar...god knows, but mark my words, GF is gone sooner than anyone expects!


I gave you the thread its in. Then PT said GF is revamping the team and is committed to 2 cars next season. I believe PT.

ESPN is repeating a unproven rumor, which Justin answered in the article. He doesn't know their plans as yet.I believe Justin before rumor.

Also I did read an article about Power where he said he may be interested in Nascar after he's accomplished what he wants in CC. Hardly "grooming",as the journalist says. Why would he be "grooming" for nascar on RR?

[gofastandwynn]

http://images.dawgsports.com/images/admin/Kevin_Bacon_Animal_House.jpg

All is well!


...

[FIAT1]

Same Old Bla Bla.

[heelntoe]

Isn't this you?



I gave you the thread its in. Then PT said GF is revamping the team and is committed to 2 cars next season. I believe PT.

ESPN is repeating a unproven rumor, which Justin answered in the article. He doesn't know their plans as yet.I believe Justin before rumor.

Also I did read an article about Power where he said he may be interested in Nascar after he's accomplished what he wants in CC. Hardly "grooming",as the journalist says. Why would he be "grooming" for nascar on RR?

My comment about GF was way back and not in the context of the current points as referenced by TBYARS...as far as GF revamping, etc., perception for someone who is straddled by a large amount of assets, some of which will have to be sold off, is critical. These are my opinions, as I've said many times before...however, the difference i was in business with these people and actually know them rather than someone's who's desparately trying to get in their graces...why, i still don't know.

[weeflyonthewall]

Same Old Bla Bla.


yup.yup.yup!

[FlatChatRacer]

Well Gentlemen, we won't have to wait too long to see which way the wind is blowing.

I expect there will be some sort of announcement regarding the series within the next two months. If there is going to be a 2008 season then the schedule will have to be announced before the end of the year.

If we don't get any news about 2008 before the end of 2007, that will be a cause for concern.

[Ruben Barrios]

two months is too much... too much silence... Most of the companies that go under/merge/get sold use the same pattern... silence followed by "everything is fine, here are the plans for our bright future" followed by %^#$# sorry, but business is business...

[jjjanos]

I expect there will be some sort of announcement regarding the series within the next two months. If there is going to be a 2008 season then the schedule will have to be announced before the end of the year.

I think we'll see some sort of announcement in the next few weeks - we're 46 days away from Mexico City and there is NOTHING. While I understand that many people say that Mexico City always is late starting it's promotion, this is pathetic.

There's no schedule. There's no word on supporting races. There's no word on ticket sales. The last thing CCWS needs is even the rumor that another race will be Phoenixed.

[ChaimWitz]

I agree with the points made by FlatChatRacer, heelntoe, BrentJackson, Ruben Barrios and jjjanos, I suspect we are not alone in discussing the subject of “what happens next?” For me, the 2008 schedule is the key and everything else will be defined by it.

Don’t you think that all the teams in the ChampCar paddock are now looking at the same things we are and asking themselves some very hard questions? Most importantly, each team owner must be questioning if they really believe they will be there for the 2008 season once the schedule is finally announced. When I ask myself the same question team by team, the answers I get are not encouraging:

Newman/Hass/Lanigan – This past season, especially the past 30 days, cannot have provided much positive reinforcement for the proud and savvy owners of ChampCar’s only “A list” team. With rumors of PLN’s possible retirement (I will believe that when I see it) and the development of the recent NASCAR team relationship with Mari George, one must ask where their real future lies? Carl Haas in particular does not suffer fools nor does he enjoy losing money. Beyond that, they all probably now understand that one series makes sense and this slow, cheap death does not. Carl is loyal to his staff and the Panoz parts support deal keeps some employed but there are limits to patience and loyalty. The question now is, why would they stay? Young Rahal’s preference for Road Racing is not enough and the Medizone “sponsorship” is rumored to be a tangled web of stock swaps and IOUs involving Kevin Kalkhoven. If this team leaves for the IRL or an Indy 500 one off, it is over. End of story.

Forsythe Championship Racing – 2007 is clearly a tipping point for this once great team. Despite all the happy talk of renewed commitment and refocusing, this team is now the antithesis of a steadfast devotion to success. It is instead, sad evidence of Gerry Forsythe’s waning interest and the effects four long seasons without any meaningful third party sponsorship since the departure of Player’s. Rumors also abound pf Paul Tracy’s deep frustration and disenchantment and the current PR and media push claiming otherwise just leaves me unconvinced given what I have heard from people I believe. My sense is that the only way Gerry will stay in the game is if he is in control of the series and people he trusts are running it without the “help” of the other owners.

Walker Racing/Team Australia – I hear that DW has had it with ChampCar’s ownership and management “team” given the recent spate of disasters. I can’t blame him. He is a shrewd survivor who has spent far too much time as prisoner on Fantasy Island. Will Power also has to wonder where his future lies if he wants to advance his career professionally. Craig Gore has been right on in his criticisms of the OWRS owners’ lack of commitment to their own series. As 2007 has unfolded, I can’t see anything that has happened to help him change his mind. The press conference in Assen probably had the opposite effect of what was intended, IMHO. My bet is ALMS, Grand-Am, IRL or nothing for DW. Sad. This team is the heart and soul of the “new” ChampCar proposition that had all of us so excited.

Minardi Team USA – The question I have is: what happens if the Red Bull money dries up? Same question for the expensive and unproductive F1 2 seater program? Would this team even still exist without those two income streams? Despite all of this, this team, along with Walker has been most impressive this season.

PKV – Same question about Red Bull. I also hear that iRise and Pay By Touch are not big money deals. Regardless, I don’t see this team going anywhere. I like to think of them as the Vision Racing of ChampCar.

Coyne – We won’t know until the first practice session of the 2008 season where this team stands but two things seem clear today: Ms Legge is the Kevester’s latest broken and forgotten toy and Bruno deserves his seat back at N/H/L wherever they choose to race.

RuSports – Will no CDW mean no RuSports? Does this team really have a reason to exist without Carl Russo, Jeremy Dale, AJ Almendinger or Justin Wilson? Does Dan Petit really want to run this team out of this own pocket? I guess we will all soon find out but I suspect we already have clues to the answers to those questions.

Rocketsports – I hear rumors they are waiting on word of pending sponsorship deals with Gizmondo and the Moonlight Bunny Ranch. Could Paulie G-String also be eyeing Milka Duno? This team is as solid as ChampCar’s 5 year plan.

PCM – Probably likely for 2008 as a result the cynical antics of recent days, To me, this team smacks of the classic “father and son” racing effort. It is always wonderful until dad stops wanting to spend the money on his lad’s expensive hobby. Alex does not look like he will ever deliver a proper return on investment for daddy so how many of us really think this team will still be racing in Champ Car in 2009 (provided there is still a ChampCar in 2009)? Back to Grand-Am or ALMS or a new hobby is my guess. How about Offshore Powerboat Racing?

Conquest – We have all heard that this team is on the ragged edge financially so my hunch is that they will follow the money (wherever it may be) or cease to exist.

I apologize for the negative tone in all this, but I lost my rose colored Oakley’s in August. Without them, what I see is not a pretty and the smell of burnt toast hangs heavy in the air which must kill people’s appetite for risk or investment.

If I am wrong here, can someone please offer credible alternative scenarios that are based on more than unconditional faith in the Almighty Amigos? If not, then can someone please share what you think should happen next?

I keep coming to one inescapable answer.

[seppefan]

I agree with the points made by FlatChatRacer, heelntoe, BrentJackson, Ruben Barrios and jjjanos, I suspect we are not alone in discussing the subject of “what happens next?” For me, the 2008 schedule is the key and everything else will be defined by it.

Don’t you think that all the teams in the ChampCar paddock are now looking at the same things we are and asking themselves some very hard questions? Most importantly, each team owner must be questioning if they really believe they will be there for the 2008 season once the schedule is finally announced. When I ask myself the same question team by team, the answers I get are not encouraging:

Newman/Hass/Lanigan – This past season, especially the past 30 days, cannot have provided much positive reinforcement for the proud and savvy owners of ChampCar’s only “A list” team. With rumors of PLN’s possible retirement (I will believe that when I see it) and the development of the recent NASCAR team relationship with Mari George, one must ask where their real future lies? Carl Haas in particular does not suffer fools nor does he enjoy losing money. Beyond that, they all probably now understand that one series makes sense and this slow, cheap death does not. Carl is loyal to his staff and the Panoz parts support deal keeps some employed but there are limits to patience and loyalty. The question now is, why would they stay? Young Rahal’s preference for Road Racing is not enough and the Medizone “sponsorship” is rumored to be a tangled web of stock swaps and IOUs involving Kevin Kalkhoven. If this team leaves for the IRL or an Indy 500 one off, it is over. End of story.

Forsythe Championship Racing – 2007 is clearly a tipping point for this once great team. Despite all the happy talk of renewed commitment and refocusing, this team is now the antithesis of a steadfast devotion to success. It is instead, sad evidence of Gerry Forsythe’s waning interest and the effects four long seasons without any meaningful third party sponsorship since the departure of Player’s. Rumors also abound pf Paul Tracy’s deep frustration and disenchantment and the current PR and media push claiming otherwise just leaves me unconvinced given what I have heard from people I believe. My sense is that the only way Gerry will stay in the game is if he is in control of the series and people he trusts are running it without the “help” of the other owners.

Walker Racing/Team Australia – I hear that DW has had it with ChampCar’s ownership and management “team” given the recent spate of disasters. I can’t blame him. He is a shrewd survivor who has spent far too much time as prisoner on Fantasy Island. Will Power also has to wonder where his future lies if he wants to advance his career professionally. Craig Gore has been right on in his criticisms of the OWRS owners’ lack of commitment to their own series. As 2007 has unfolded, I can’t see anything that has happened to help him change his mind. The press conference in Assen probably had the opposite effect of what was intended, IMHO. My bet is ALMS, Grand-Am, IRL or nothing for DW. Sad. This team is the heart and soul of the “new” ChampCar proposition that had all of us so excited.

Minardi Team USA – The question I have is: what happens if the Red Bull money dries up? Same question for the expensive and unproductive F1 2 seater program? Would this team even still exist without those two income streams? Despite all of this, this team, along with Walker has been most impressive this season.

PKV – Same question about Red Bull. I also hear that iRise and Pay By Touch are not big money deals. Regardless, I don’t see this team going anywhere. I like to think of them as the Vision Racing of ChampCar.

Coyne – We won’t know until the first practice session of the 2008 season where this team stands but two things seem clear today: Ms Legge is the Kevester’s latest broken and forgotten toy and Bruno deserves his seat back at N/H/L wherever they choose to race.

RuSports – Will no CDW mean no RuSports? Does this team really have a reason to exist without Carl Russo, Jeremy Dale, AJ Almendinger or Justin Wilson? Does Dan Petit really want to run this team out of this own pocket? I guess we will all soon find out but I suspect we already have clues to the answers to those questions.

Rocketsports – I hear rumors they are waiting on word of pending sponsorship deals with Gizmondo and the Moonlight Bunny Ranch. Could Paulie G-String also be eyeing Milka Duno? This team is as solid as ChampCar’s 5 year plan.

PCM – Probably likely for 2008 as a result the cynical antics of recent days, To me, this team smacks of the classic “father and son” racing effort. It is always wonderful until dad stops wanting to spend the money on his lad’s expensive hobby. Alex does not look like he will ever deliver a proper return on investment for daddy so how many of us really think this team will still be racing in Champ Car in 2009 (provided there is still a ChampCar in 2009)? Back to Grand-Am or ALMS or a new hobby is my guess. How about Offshore Powerboat Racing?

Conquest – We have all heard that this team is on the ragged edge financially so my hunch is that they will follow the money (wherever it may be) or cease to exist.

I apologize for the negative tone in all this, but I lost my rose colored Oakley’s in August. Without them, what I see is not a pretty and the smell of burnt toast hangs heavy in the air which must kill people’s appetite for risk or investment.

If I am wrong here, can someone please offer credible alternative scenarios that are based on more than unconditional faith in the Almighty Amigos? If not, then can someone please share what you think should happen next?

I keep coming to one inescapable answer.

Well it shows that KK is trying but that he must rid himself of Paulie G-String ( love it ! ). Otherwise I feel that your thumb nail scetches are a very good summary. Sad isn't it, the series we love is being well and truly screwed by the owners.

[sanguin]

I bet the team owners would be surprised that a poster would know their inner workings and thoughts.Or you forgot IMO!

Without any links or proof, its so much manure.

But I understand the motive behind so much D&G. So much depends on CC 's demise.I'm "hearing" a lot of things too.Good Luck.

sorry, but CC continues.See you in 2008.

IMO

:)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I bet the team owners would be surprised that a poster would know their inner workings and thoughts.Or you forgot IMO!

Without any links or proof, its so much manure.

But I understand the motive behind so much D&G. So much depends on CC 's demise.I'm "hearing" a lot of things too.Good Luck.

sorry, but CC continues.See you in 2008.

IMO

:)

That's right, it is HIS OPINION. Unlike your many suspect facts, Chaim made no claims to know what is actually going on but is forming an opinion based on events we have gleaned from the press this year. Your OPINION is that everything is fine, the Amigo's know what they are doing, and we are all just Robin Miller's acolytes out to destroy Champ Car. The reality is a lot closer however to the world us naysayers have been opining on than your twisted PR manager's view of Champ Car.

NHL is the only top flight team from the old days left, and they are frustrated. Walker is not going to go down with the ship, and he has too much at stake to wait around. This year could be the end for him....or not. I suspect he wants to see what the plan is for next year and see the ownership stick to it. Gerry Forsythe has threatened to pull back to one car and is always complaining about having to pay to run his own team, but last time I looked, the only owners making money in racing were people who could get other people to pay for it, and they usually find a series where that can happen.

Roger Penske is the master of not spending HIS money to make his team work. Gerry I guess forgot he owns a chunk of the series, and if the series isn't doing well, his team wont either. So either spend the money to make the series better drawing sponsors to pay for your racing, or get out. I am tired of hearing about it Gerry....

You have many teams with uncertain futures because the series is uncertain. It has a weird schedule with no momentum, and you have an ever changing list of venues that makes it hard for sponsors to target markets or promotions.

What has to happen next is some stablity and commitment from management to spend the money to make things happen. Brent Jackson advocated the owners putting the cars out there, spending the millions to get a critical mass of drivers, teams and events and make it happen. I don't know if it would work, but it aint my money, so I am all for it. That said, I don't see it happening. The Amigo's stopped spending with the creation of the DP-01. They think they can go from here and everything is peachy. The reality is, you have to keep promoting and push harder to get this series heard above the competition or you will die. They don't see it that way and are going to Europe. That is fine....but you are an American series boys, and if you go just to Europe and forget North America, you will just be another road racing series on a continent with about 15 of them......

[ChaimWitz]

I bet the team owners would be surprised that a poster would know their inner workings and thoughts.Or you forgot IMO!

Without any links or proof, its so much manure.

But I understand the motive behind so much D&G. So much depends on CC 's demise.I'm "hearing" a lot of things too.Good Luck.

sorry, but CC continues.See you in 2008.

IMO

:)

IMO, the real manure that is being spread has to do with Champ Car's supposedly bright future by certain parties here and beyond.

IMO, there seems to be a desire on the part of these folks to have us collectively suspend disbelief so that we all ignore the truth long enough to allow the next Billionaire Boys Club Ego Bowl game to be scheduled.

IMO, it seems some true believers only "hear" things about the future that sustain hope against all logic or consideration of the consequences of recent events. So, is it too much for us to ask if these flight attendants from the G5 Owner’s Club can share a credible, positive scenario or a link about something truly meaningful and real about 2008?

IMO, news about ChampCar (IMO, being a free-to-the-promoter support show) on the Grand-Am weekend at Laguna Seca in May simultaneous with the cancellation of two of the series “proof of concept” signature events in Phoenix and San Jose falls a wee bit short of inspiring confidence.

IMO, some concrete announcements would help. Not more breathless speculation about another batch of third string, ride buying nameless, faceless Europeans (hoping to land an F1 test seat) or misty eyed candle lighting in the hope of two more European races that will somehow bring ChampCar to Nirvana and salvation in '08 by being more like F1 in 1978.

IMO, I imagine folks who celebrate such things as signs of success would be in the minority in the USA where our supposedly American series claims to be based. What would Ted Horn or Rex Mays think of all this?

IMO, most of us here are anything but Doom and Gloomers, we are frustrated Champ Car fans who just want to see a "Go Big or Go Penguin Watching" moment soon. No more five year plans that aren't really plans at all.

IMO, the people I speak with who work in the sport have a very good track record when it comes to assessing the true state of Champ Car. Everything that has happened since last fall was predicted with stunning accuracy by these people so, please forgive me if I now heed their pragmatic assessments rather than the spin of someone who would have us all believe that ChampCar's glass is 1/3rd full rather than 2/3rds empty as it now appears to be.

IMO, something big and bad is going on in Champ Car and with every week that passes, it looks less and less like the OWRS owners are on the same page save for one thing....

IMO, it looks more and more likely with each day of silence from these men who once boldly promised so much, that they are now engaged in something that has little to do with building our series and everything to do with cashing out or cutting their losses.

IMO, what they are now doing is not worthy of investment by sponsors nor respect from the drivers, teams and promoters. Most importantly, it is no longer worthy of devotion from us fans who have stuck with CART and now Champ Car through think and thin.

IMO, we are all burdened by memory of what this series once was just five short years ago and haunted by the promise of what could have been.

IMO, a few people who post here seem to want to be buried alive with King Tutkalkhoven when the 3-Day Festivals of Speed pyramid scheme finally collapses.

IMO, it is time to move on to a new era for open wheel racing based in reality and the hard lessons learned from the past 13 years.

;-)

[Mark in Oshawa]

We are witnessing the end of an era possibly....and our faith in what was supposed to happen has been misplaced as the Amigo's appear to be trying to cut their losses....why now they are doing this is a mystery to me...

[heelntoe]

IMO, the real manure that is being spread has to do with Champ Car's supposedly bright future by certain parties here and beyond.

IMO, there seems to be a desire on the part of these folks to have us collectively suspend disbelief so that we all ignore the truth long enough to allow the next Billionaire Boys Club Ego Bowl game to be scheduled.

IMO, it seems some true believers only "hear" things about the future that sustain hope against all logic or consideration of the consequences of recent events. So, is it too much for us to ask if these flight attendants from the G5 Owner’s Club can share a credible, positive scenario or a link about something truly meaningful and real about 2008?

IMO, news about ChampCar (IMO, being a free-to-the-promoter support show) on the Grand-Am weekend at Laguna Seca in May simultaneous with the cancellation of two of the series “proof of concept” signature events in Phoenix and San Jose falls a wee bit short of inspiring confidence.

IMO, some concrete announcements would help. Not more breathless speculation about another batch of third string, ride buying nameless, faceless Europeans (hoping to land an F1 test seat) or misty eyed candle lighting in the hope of two more European races that will somehow bring ChampCar to Nirvana and salvation in '08 by being more like F1 in 1978.

IMO, I imagine folks who celebrate such things as signs of success would be in the minority in the USA where our supposedly American series claims to be based. What would Ted Horn or Rex Mays think of all this?

IMO, most of us here are anything but Doom and Gloomers, we are frustrated Champ Car fans who just want to see a "Go Big or Go Penguin Watching" moment soon. No more five year plans that aren't really plans at all.

IMO, the people I speak with who work in the sport have a very good track record when it comes to assessing the true state of Champ Car. Everything that has happened since last fall was predicted with stunning accuracy by these people so, please forgive me if I now heed their pragmatic assessments rather than the spin of someone who would have us all believe that ChampCar's glass is 1/3rd full rather than 2/3rds empty as it now appears to be.

IMO, something big and bad is going on in Champ Car and with every week that passes, it looks less and less like the OWRS owners are on the same page save for one thing....

IMO, it looks more and more likely with each day of silence from these men who once boldly promised so much, that they are now engaged in something that has little to do with building our series and everything to do with cashing out or cutting their losses.

IMO, what they are now doing is not worthy of investment by sponsors nor respect from the drivers, teams and promoters. Most importantly, it is no longer worthy of devotion from us fans who have stuck with CART and now Champ Car through think and thin.

IMO, we are all burdened by memory of what this series once was just five short years ago and haunted by the promise of what could have been.

IMO, a few people who post here seem to want to be buried alive with King Tutkalkhoven when the 3-Day Festivals of Speed pyramid scheme finally collapses.

IMO, it is time to move on to a new era for open wheel racing based in reality and the hard lessons learned from the past 13 years.

;-)

Excellent post coming from one frustrated fan to another...I have stated in the past that posters like the obtuse one we all talk about do more damage to the series than good and you summed up exactly why. Sadly, however, I too believe that the silence from the Principals is a clear sign that the troubles are much greater than any of us think...IN OUR OPINION! And when PT quotes what GF says are his intentions for next season VIA Neil, that is a very bad sign. GF keeps everything very close to his chest and he certainly is not going to do anything now except keep things status quo. We all know how quickly PG is to trumpet how great things are and KK used to folllow his lead...no more. IMO, the hardest thing confronting the Amigos right now is how to create even a remote glimmer of value to a series that's losing champ drivers, sponsors and races faster than they can spin why each of these fumbles are actually good things. If I am GF, who is wealthier than KK by a longshot, I'm the most upset between the money lost in CART and the fact that I'm now standing alongside a guy, owning assets with him, and no easy way to make a sale...Mark and others call TG "brain dead", and I'm no fan of that series, but his silence and quietly plodding along with revenues that cover his hobby, makes him look a world of smarts better than the Amigos. I walked away from these guys some years back because I got burned and didn't believe in the 5 year plan...I truly don't know how they save face given what we know as the facts as of today...time will tell, but what happens next gets murkier with each passing day...IMO

[Mark in Oshawa]

Excellent post coming from one frustrated fan to another...I have stated in the past that posters like the obtuse one we all talk about do more damage to the series than good and you summed up exactly why. Sadly, however, I too believe that the silence from the Principals is a clear sign that the troubles are much greater than any of us think...IN OUR OPINION! And when PT quotes what GF says are his intentions for next season VIA Neil, that is a very bad sign. GF keeps everything very close to his chest and he certainly is not going to do anything now except keep things status quo. We all know how quickly PG is to trumpet how great things are and KK used to folllow his lead...no more. IMO, the hardest thing confronting the Amigos right now is how to create even a remote glimmer of value to a series that's losing champ drivers, sponsors and races faster than they can spin why each of these fumbles are actually good things. If I am GF, who is wealthier than KK by a longshot, I'm the most upset between the money lost in CART and the fact that I'm now standing alongside a guy, owning assets with him, and no easy way to make a sale...Mark and others call TG "brain dead", and I'm no fan of that series, but his silence and quietly plodding along with revenues that cover his hobby, makes him look a world of smarts better than the Amigos. I walked away from these guys some years back because I got burned and didn't believe in the 5 year plan...I truly don't know how they save face given what we know as the facts as of today...time will tell, but what happens next gets murkier with each passing day...IMO


Tony may be brain dead, but he got smart enough to use his money in ways that will make him look less stupid. He is spending money on making the IRL look bigger than it is. He is "keeping up appearences". He is in short, acting like he wants this series to last. The Amigo's, they are spending money like they have to get their money out before the whole thing collapses. This year has been one screw up after another, and yet the lack of leadership and taking resposibility has come down to one quick Press conference in Zolder and the odd interview. When KK first stepped in, he was EVERYWHERE. I think they have lost interest in this hobby.....and to us it was never a hobby....

[sanguin]

Here's what happens next, right now testing at Sebring, after that 2 more races Surfers and Mexico City. Meanwhile the schedule is being confirmed ,some contracts and dates are already in place, FIA approval will probably mean the schedule will be out later this fall. As far as I've heard ,the teams are committed to 2 cars each with some a possiblity of 3.

I really don't know what you expect, the owners spelled it out in this interview-


Champ Car owners committed to series long-term success
by Mark Cipolloni
September 1, 2007
On the heels of the cancellation of both the China and Phoenix races this week and the resulting negative backlash that has caused, Champ Car Series owners Kevin Kalkhoven, Dan Pettit, Paul Gentilozzi, plus series President Steve Johnson and Series VP of Communications David Higdon met with a few media members and I to discuss the state of Champ Car and to ease fears that the sky is falling.

Champ Car President Steve Johnson started out addressing the most recent issue at hand, the cancelled Phoenix race.

"Obviously an event occurred last week that kind of caught us all by surprise, and that was Phoenix," said Johnson.

"There's a lot of rumors going on. But the bottom line to Phoenix was the costs far exceeded the revenues for the event, and therefore they didn't see it as a viable economic reason to continue with the event.

"A lot of things came into play with that, but we supported their decision when they came to us with it. This doesn't affect Vegas. This is just the Phoenix event that has been canceled.

"We're not replacing it. We're not throwing an event on at the last minute to end the season because, first off, it wouldn't be properly done and we're not going to go race just to race. So Phoenix is off the calendar. It was as disappointing to us as it was to everybody, but unfortunately sometimes those things happen in business.

"We're going to focus on having 14 great events this year. We've had very strong events this year. We've had good racing, great crowds, and we're going to finish up the season that way with Australia and then Mexico. So we will end the season in Mexico City this year.


But how does Champ Car get around the fact that it is a bit of a PR disaster have five canceled races in three years?

"Us. At the end of the day that's who is responsible for it," said Johnson

"As we're doing our 2008 calendar right now, we're going to pick the events, make sure the FIA approvals are in, the promoters are strong, do our best so that doesn't happen again. It not good for any of us. It's bad for the teams, bad for the other venues, bad for the series. It's not acceptable to us.

"We're putting together a schedule where that will not happen in the future.

Is Phoenix off for good, forever?

"Well, never say "forever," but it's not going to be on the 2008 calendar right now," Johnson iterated

"We have to submit next year's schedule to the FIA for approval, especially with the international events. We know what happened in China. People told us it was not a money issue at all. We couldn't get the date changed, couldn't get that through the FIA. They acted within their areas of authority.

"Unfortunately that happened to us. So we're going to follow the proper procedures, get the schedule in on the calendar to the council and have them approve our dates for next year.

"It goes to the FIA mid October. When we put out a provisional calendar, I'm not sure yet. We may have to say, Here is this events, pending FIA approval.

There's been a lot of challenge in getting on the ground in Korea and China. At some point do you kind of have to give up and move on?

"China, actually we had a promoter, we had the funding, we had a racetrack, we had the promotions. We didn't have an FIA approval. If we had that, we'd be going there," said Johnson

"We're going to be going back. We're working with them to get that back on the calendar for 2008. We have a meeting with them in two weeks to finalize everything with them. We know we had the May listing. They did approve that. Then we had a change of promoters and they wouldn't approve the October listing, so...

"Korea was totally different. Didn't even have a racetrack."

As to how many races for the 2008 schedule, "we're looking around 15," said Johnson

Has that whole process over the China thing had a sobering lesson in just what the power of the FIA is ultimately? Not that you didn't know that before.

"We've always known the power, said Gentilozzi. We didn't anticipate, necessarily, their desire to follow guidelines. They're very structured. Honestly, they had a very valid point. It's their rules. If we're going to race internationally, we have to abide by their rules.

"I think sometimes in the U.S. we don't understand we're more willing to compromise than the rest of the world. Here they tell you to get in line. Get in line, don't get out of line. In the U.S. we're always trying to cut the line."

They reiterated the fact that support for Champ Car outside the USA is surprisingly strong.

"I think Holland created a truly wonderful event," said Kalkhoven I believe tomorrow we're going to see an extraordinary event, I really do. The enthusiasm of the Europeans for our racing is remarkable. Plus having Doornbos."

"I think you see that in the media room." said Kalkhoven "It's just packed. That isn't necessarily projected back to the U.S. They just don't understand here there is a passionate enthusiasm. They find our racing compelling, open access. These guys are all over-praising what we do."

"We've worked this market hard," added Johnson. "You (David Malsher) were with us when we did the European media tour. That was a tremendous amount of success. That was a great way to launch Champ Car into Europe. We have a great promoter. You go into the restaurants. Every restaurant has posters up. Everybody's talking about Champ Car. That doesn't happen in every market we go to.

"We had a great dinner just off the square in Amsterdam. The waiter knew everything about Champ Car, knew all the drivers, said anybody should win but Sebastien. He was Belgian."

"It tells us that there is a passion for open-wheel racing and our style of racing here in Europe," saod Kalkhoven. "I think we underestimate the popularity of our racing here in Europe, I really do.

"I mean, I was shocked when a cabdriver talked about that in St. Petersburg, Russia. You know, he watched Surfers on television. Wanted to know if he could go to Surfers. How would he go to Surfers, a fabulous place. He just wanted to talk about it. That's just a cabdriver".

So what is Champ Car's future? Is it more international, more non-U.S.? Given NASCAR's strength and dominance in America, the low TV ratings in America, some soft markets in America, not a lot of corporate support in America, what's the future for Champ Car? Is it going to become more international?

"It's called the World Series, Champ Car World Series. We did that on day one," said Kalkhoven.

"I think Steve and his staff have been trying to go that way," added Gentilozzi. "It isn't easy to break new ground. It isn't easy to be in China or Korea. It's tough. Eventually if we can break through with perseverance, there may be several new markets.

"Champ Car used to go to Brazil, South America. Now, the difference is they have a stock car series like NASCAR there. We don't have that here in Europe. It's not what the people want, not what the fans want."

"The same is also true in Asia," added Kalkhoven. "It may be we batted our heads against brick walls in Asia, but eventually the walls will give way because our heads are pretty solid (laughter). That is a market that is huge, and it is one that is fascinated by our style of racing. I mean, there's no doubt about it.

Formula One is Formula One I pointed out Everybody knows Formula One. You can go to a country and race there without a local driver. Here we have Doornbos, his popularity is helping the promoter. How do you go to Asia, given that Champ Car really doesn't have that big of a name in Asia, and be successful? What is going to make it work?

"It's going to take time," said Kalkhoven

"The other side of that is they don't have auto racing, so any auto racing is unique and new," said Gentilozzi. "It takes time to develop drivers. There are Asian drivers certainly in the world, and there are more every year. But to go to that market, once we've proven we can race there - and you have to understand they're very skeptical - once we've proven we can race there, provide a good product, then corporate support will come.

"When that comes, the same way that Brazilian drivers got into Champ Car, Brazilian sponsors brought them with them. So we have to go there first. We can't say, Sponsor a driver and we'll come race there".

"My experience in Asia, which goes back to my previous job, is that those areas of the country are looking for excellence in sports," said David Higdon. "They don't really get into the whole nationalism like Europe does. So, for instance, men's tennis went into Asia with no Asian players whatsoever.

"They just wanted -- you know, they wanted top-line sports. That's why I think Champ Car will be successful there."

"We took Roberto Moreno over there. We had to have 10,000 to 15,000 people show up," Johnson pointed out. That may be underestimating, to watch one car go around the circuit. I've been there three times. There's a lot of interest. There is a lot of support from the local government there, the promoter. The racetrack is a great facility. They know how to promote. They have the GT series that goes there. I think it's going to be successful. I don't consider it being soft at all.."

[sanguin]

continued-


There's no question the product is good, the racing is good. What seems to be lacking from where I sit is, the marketing, and as I've said a lot of times, the big stars. From my perspective, Montoya, Villeneuve, Scott Speed, Tony Stewart, Sam Hornish, should not be in NASCAR. All those big names need to be in open-wheel racing, in my opinion.

"I don't think you can stop the train called NASCAR," said Gentilozzi. "You have to define who you are, what your product is. But the idea of trying to out-star them in the U.S. isn't going to happen."

I pointed out that the drivers I named above have an international following. NASCAR is more of a domestic product. If Champ Car wants to be an international product or global product, then it needs drivers who have a global name. Montoya has a global name, Scott Speed does, so on and so forth. A.J. Allmendinger was actually beating Bourdais. There's a guy, American, beating Bourdais on a regular basis, and he got away from Champ Car. As owners of the series, at what point do you step up and say, We're going to commit to these certain athletes to be our stars of the future and whatever it takes we're going to get 'em?

"You can't have whatever it takes," said Kalkhoven. That's not going to work. I mean, there is no way that -- if somebody wants to buy somebody, has resources to be able to do it, they will. It's as simple as that.

"However, I think what you're going to find, and time will tell, is that lack of success that these people will have.

"Not to pick on A.J., because I like A.J., said Gentilozzi, "but that was a tactically terrible mistake. His teammate is qualifying in the top half of the field and he's doing bench presses on Sunday.

But the flipside is, how did that work out for Champ Car that a potential star was lost to the series?.

"If any of us think that Toyota has any conscience or limit on their checkbook are kidding themselves. The damage they're going to do long-term to NASCAR is going to be significant. But somewhere in a go-kart race in Phoenix there's another A.J. Allmendinger," said Gentilozzi

Certain key drivers you want to base -- every sport has their stars, I pointed out Who are going to be the stars of Champ Car?

"Well, Champ Car's invested big in Graham Rahal. I mean, we've really gone out on a limb to make Graham a name everywhere we can."

He's talking about Formula One, though.

"I talk about Formula One. Doesn't mean anything," said Gentilozzi.

"Look at Rubens Barrichello. I know Rubens well. He went from being a Ferrari driver to a driver you don't hear of. Rubens is a guy, okay, pretty big name around the world, been a Ferrari driver. He'd come for $5 million because that's what he's getting paid to drive that **** box.

"The point, guys, you've raised a good point," said Kalkhoven. "Who are we going to build on? We have to rebuild. I don't know that we can get out and hire a big name. I just don't. 'Cause we've looked at it."

"Between today and tomorrow, there will be five or six Formula One guys, test drivers in Formula One here, looking for a ride in Champ Car. None of the ones you talk to are shy at all about saying, We'd much rather come race here than wait for the day that won't come over there," Gentilozzi pointed out.

"We need to be looking at the best drivers in the world that we can get. That means -- I mean, in this case, he talked to Timo the other night. Timo is now in the lead of the GP2 championship. He thinks he's going to get a ride. If he doesn't, he says, I want to come back where I can race, because he loves racing in GP2.

"Those kinds of drivers are the drivers -- it doesn't matter where they're from, we just need the best drivers. And I think we've got a great field. I mean, look at all the young talent this year.

"Gommendy, all these young guys. We've got a great mix. I think that we're gonna be prepared next year probably to lose a couple of our senior drivers because they can't get it done."

"But also look at the great field of Atlantic drivers that we have. Are we cultivating? Yes, we're cultivating the drivers. We're cultivating the team owners, the crew members. That is the development series to step up for everybody into Champ Car," said Johnson.

"Are we in discussions? Yes, we're in discussions with potential new teams on a daily basis. Am I going to sit here and tell you how many cars? No, I can't. Unfortunately, I made that mistake last year so I'm not going to do that again."

"Would we love more American drivers? Yes. We can't guarantee we're going to get them. We're going to get the cream of the crop. Look at the Atlantics. There are some kids that could step up."

"One of the criticisms leveled against Champ Car a few years ago, two or three years ago, was the drivers weren't good enough to go to Formula One," said Kalkhoven. I remember reading certain journalists saying, Champ Car drivers aren't good enough to go to Formula One. And now when they go to Formula One, we're told that's bad.

"I mean, the reality is they're going to move between series. They always have done. I'm actually kind of looking forward to next year. I think we will see young Graham, as he takes over the No. 1 role in Newman/Haas, I think you'll see a real developing star. We'll wait and see.

Moving off drivers and move it to the thing that fuels the sport, which is money? Where, bottom line, where do you see the series attracting sponsorship money?

"It's clear, when you look, that there is a very warm reception for the series and its drivers. It's also relatively clear, when you just look at the level of marketing activity that, for instance, the promoter has done here, the promoter has had no difficulty in selling sponsorship," said Kalkhoven.

"It's going to be a profitable race. When you look at the level of potential European sponsors, we've got a team with Minardi, sponsored by the Dutch. People tend to forget that Team Australia is actually a fully sponsored team, albeit with wine, which I think is excellent. When you see some of the things that will be happening, I'm sure you're going to see more international sponsorship. It's just an inevitability.

"Why is the CEO of Holmatro, product made here, spending all of his budget on racing in America, like even before it came here? The attractiveness, I think, for Champ Car in the rest of the world is, that it is American," said Gentilozzi.

"They're still curious about it. We're different. We're not GP2. Our cars are faster. We're not a support series for anybody. We're not the little guy. A lot of the world feels, even though those inside understand the difference with Formula One, a lot of the world feels it's just as good and, in fact, some ways better because we don't have the disparity of the class system that has so traditionally been in place.

"I was just talking to a young driver's manager. He said, My driver has given up the idea of coming to Formula One because if you don't get those six seats then you're just dirt. He used the word "dirt." In Champ Car, doesn't matter who you are. Y'all got the same stuff.

"We fought hard. It wasn't an easy fight to get quality in engines and cars, sit on the rules, people piss, moan and bitch.

"This year, the teams in Champ Car have spent 15 million bucks converting to new cars," added Kalkhoven. "That's a huge number. Could we have kept our Lolas, maybe had another car? For sure we could. But that wasn't going to let us grow.

"So we bit the bullet. We spent $15 million, got a new car that everybody pissed and moaned about, everybody criticized. In the end, it's a great race car. They're equal in competition. The tech staff and the Champ Car staff have done a great job at making it good.

"When was the last time we had a failure on a part? I love the guys who criticize -- there's a couple journalists who criticize the Panoz all the time. We should have done this, we should have done that.

"In fact, we got a great bargain, a great performing, safe race car. We hit our target. We haven't hit every target, but we hit that one.

[sanguin]

continued-


"We all made mistakes. We all know that. But we're learning from those mistakes. It's hard to get into Asia, but we'll do it. We've learned that Europe really likes us, so we'll push on that. We've learned that there are other parts of the world, as Formula One departs, that have a great interest.

"And we've also learned, frankly, that they actually like the American approach to it. They like the open paddock. They like the accessibility of the drivers. They like the fact it's American. I mean, we tend to sometimes think that, you know, Formula One, because it's European, is the most sophisticated, all the rest.

"Talk to the people again. Why are these sponsors here? You'll find they like the American -- they like the fact we're American. They like the friendly approach. They like the accessibility of the drivers. And actually in a strange sense, you look at some of the stuff out there, there are Harley Davidsons out there.

"There is still a feeling about America that is positive. Because of other political issues, we tend to forget. When it comes down to it, people like American drinks, they like American television, they like American movies, they like American."

We then asked Kalkhoven, why not just come right out and say your Mission Statement is to become a true global world series?

"Until we have a schedule that's absolutely solid, until we know that the FIA approves it, we are not ready to make the -- because when you play international, you're playing to a different set of rules. The schedule itself will make that statement. You can follow it up.

"I'm not going to be here, nor is anyone else, going to make a statement till we've got an international schedule that works.

But even if it's not next year, if your goal is to become a true World Series, that message needs to be hammered out over and over and over again we added. Fans need to know it around the world, promoters, drivers, everyone involved.

" think drivers do. I think a lot of the promoters do. But the proof of the pudding is going to be when we actually have a solid schedule that is international with international sponsors. We've got good international drivers. For too long I think we've had the ability to overestimate some of the things that we said we'll do," said Kalkhoven

"They're hard. Getting into China is hard. Getting into Korea was clearly hard. A lot of these things are hard and we've made mistakes. But our commitment is still there to do it. But we have to back up that commitment with solid facts this time."

"You guys have seen the evolution of what we've done. We've come a long way and we've made mistakes, but we have come a long way. And I think '08 will prove to be another step forward.

"Some of the things we've done are really, really hard. We talked about Asia. We talked about the car. I remember people saying, you know, after our first race in Vegas, you know, The car is a piece of ****. It will never work. It's going to be unreliable. They went on and on and on. Look at those times out there. I think it's actually -- if you exclude Sebastien, I think the first 12 cars are within a half of a second of each other."

"And look at the different winners we've had this year. The cars have been remarkably reliable. A lot of people said, Why are you doing it? What's wrong with the Lolas? Why are you spending that much money?"

"We all recognize our marketing has to be better."

Is the Las Vegas race going to be okay we asked?

"Again, you're going to have to wait for the schedule. But I don't see a problem with that one," said Kalkhoven

"They're good guys. They're smart businessmen. Before the train wreck (Phoenix), if you have a chance to prevent it, let's prevent it.

"A lot of this goes back to the schedule. A lot of it -- I mean, there was always a certain element of criticism about having a season that ran from here to out there. So, you know, we're going to submit our schedule to the FIA. We're going to see how it all works out.

"But I think, to be really positive about this, we've taken some big gambles that have worked. We've taken some that haven't. I think when you see what has happened here in Essen, when you see the cars, and you realize that fundamentally we've also got a budding new star in Graham, things are actually pretty okay.

"Now, we have to perform for next year. But I think they're pretty okay. If you want to look at the glass half full, you can see a glass half full.

You guys are still committed? There are predictions out there that you guys are going to get tired of doing this, I pointed out.

"Any time anyone wants to ask me that question, I will respond to it the same way. We are committed. We have to do better.," said Kalkhoven.

"You know what happens, this is a little earlier than the normal, The Sky is Falling," said Gentilozzi. Every year something happens that spins everybody up. It spins through the media, spins to some team owners. Then, geez, the whole thing is falling.

"That's because you have factions in the United States, like NASCAR and IRL, that want to see you dead.

It's mostly marketing. Global marketing. It's one thing to market in America, where you live every day, you're there every day. It's easy. To now become a World Series and market in all these countries, like Formula One does, you're talking about a many magnitudes higher budget. From a marketing perspective is what I'm getting at.

"You can't buy the marketing. The marketing has to come from the guys in the press room," said Gentilozzi

"Formula One has 400 journalists that go to every race. Bernie [Ecclestone] doesn't spend a whole lot on marketing. When was the last time you saw an F1 ad? Never."

"Here is an anecdote, very funny. We go into St. Petersburg last Sunday, the day of the Zolder race. We get in there and I switch on the television. Being me, I'm flipping through the channels. The third channel I flip to, there's our race. Now, I don't know how many people are watching at midnight in Russia, but it was there, and it was around Russia," said Kalkhoven.

We've seen the Denver race go into some sort of limbo. We've seen the Phoenix race for a variety of reasons, probably largely scheduling, but it does cost a lot of money to put on a street race. Can you talk about this concept of the street race festival changed to it point where maybe it's not quite the central focus of the series the way it might have been in the past and that point of the right time and the right race?

"Did you actually look at our schedule in the past? We don't actually have, never have had, a majority of street races. So there's a perception there we're a street race. It's not factually true. We've always had a balance between different types of road racing, if you like, turning right as well as left.

"And certainly they are hard to put on. But based on my experience in things like Long Beach, which is now back to the year 2000 attendance numbers, you can make them into great events. That's what we talk about, we talk about the events, not about street races.

"Let's look at we're not a street racing series, never have been. The majority have always been non-street races."

"Somebody wrote that we were in negotiation with the IRL to leave the month of May open," said Gentilozzi I think it's an Indianapolis-based journalist who shall remain nameless. The word they have in England is poppycock or something like that. It's not entering into our schedule [a May Indy 500 gap].

"I can absolutely tell you that no one in Champ Car management or I or Paul or Dan or Jerry have had any conversations with the IRL in a year," said Kalkhoven. "Anything else you may hear s a fairytale. Now, were there other people who would still like to put it back together? And are those people frustrated because it won't come back together? Yes. But they're not in this room."

I asked, What is the top three priority things for you for the series, that you want to accomplish?

Schedule, television, both domestic and international, improving it, and commercial success, sponsors," said Steve Johnson

Will there be a series sponsor in 2008?

"That's the tough one. We are working towards that. I am not going to jinx anything right now. That is front and center and something that we got several folks on right now," said Johnson

"The biggest mistake we could have done was not to try to do things, change. In so doing, you make a mistake every now and then. But the biggest mistake would have been not to try," said Kalkhoven.

[jjjanos]

I really don't know what you expect, the owners spelled it out in this interview-

Why, yes they did...

"Obviously an event occurred last week that kind of caught us all by surprise, and that was Phoenix," said Johnson."

Translation - I am capable of compressing the truth to a degree that would make a singularity envious.

Phoenix was a known dead property for months in the paddock. If Mr. Johnson and the owners were caught by surprise by this announcement, they are so out of touch with the series that they cannot comment make comments on it.

So scratch EVERYTHING Johnson said 'cause in the interview, the first thing he did was put the revolver into the mouth of his creditability and pull the trigger.

Paul Genti-owes-me clearly cannot be taken at his word.

Kevin "everything is great with out financial statement" Kalkhoven is out as well.

So what you just posted is either an interview with 3 individuals who are totally clueless regarding what is occuring in their own series or an interview with 3 individuals whose capacity to tell the truth is somewhat challenged.

Let me know when Mr. Forsythe is quoted directly in the press.

[sanguin]

First you want them to say something, then you don't believe a word of it.

Why should they bother trying to satisfy a bunch of posters on the internet?

Go ahead keep picking...

[jjjanos]

First you want them to say something, then you don't believe a word of it.

Oh, I'll believe them - as soon as they reestablish creditability.


Why should they bother trying to satisfy a bunch of posters on the internet?

They seem to spend a large amount of time doing that for the black shirts.

[sanguin]

Phoenix was a known dead property for months in the paddock. If Mr. Johnson and the owners were caught by surprise by this announcement, they are so out of touch with the series that they cannot comment make comments on it.

link please



Paul Genti-owes-me clearly cannot be taken at his word.

link please


So what you just posted is either an interview with 3 individuals who are totally clueless regarding what is occuring in their own series or an interview with 3 individuals whose capacity to tell the truth is somewhat challenged.


proof please

[David St. Hubbins]

The Amigo's, they are spending money like they have to get their money out before the whole thing collapses. Kinda like Pook, eh?

Damn, I hope history's not repeating itself.

[jjjanos]

link please




link please



proof please

"I don't feel like digging up all that old crap.

I take it back ,so you can be happy now and feel safe. okay?"

[sanguin]

"I don't feel like digging up all that old crap.

I take it back ,so you can be happy now and feel safe. okay?"

thanks. :)

[sanguin]

Tony may be brain dead, but he got smart enough to use his money in ways that will make him look less stupid. He is spending money on making the IRL look bigger than it is. He is "keeping up appearences". He is in short, acting like he wants this series to last. The Amigo's, they are spending money like they have to get their money out before the whole thing collapses. .

Link please on CC owners spending money.

[beachbum]

Here's what happens next, right now testing at Sebring, after that 2 more races Surfers and Mexico City. Meanwhile the schedule is being confirmed ,some contracts and dates are already in place, FIA approval will probably mean the schedule will be out later this fall. As far as I've heard ,the teams are committed to 2 cars each with some a possiblity of 3.

I really don't know what you expect, the owners spelled it out in this interview-
Links please

The "interview" is nothing new, it is weeks old, and was conducted by a CC pom pom shaker. Please supply some additional supporting FACTS. Or as you are so quick to say, provide some proof. And no, a PR interview proves nothing.

This thread is now almost 400 posts long, and I wonder how often the "links please" has been trotted out. As anyone knows, THERE ARE NO LINKS, because there is NO information, just speculation.

Moderators, don't you think it is time to shut this down?

[beachbum]

Finally - 400 posts!

[Miatanut]

IMO, the real manure that is being spread has to do with Champ Car's supposedly bright future by certain parties here and beyond.

IMO, there seems to be a desire on the part of these folks to have us collectively suspend disbelief so that we all ignore the truth long enough to allow the next Billionaire Boys Club Ego Bowl game to be scheduled.

IMO, it seems some true believers only "hear" things about the future that sustain hope against all logic or consideration of the consequences of recent events. So, is it too much for us to ask if these flight attendants from the G5 Owner’s Club can share a credible, positive scenario or a link about something truly meaningful and real about 2008?

IMO, news about ChampCar (IMO, being a free-to-the-promoter support show) on the Grand-Am weekend at Laguna Seca in May simultaneous with the cancellation of two of the series “proof of concept” signature events in Phoenix and San Jose falls a wee bit short of inspiring confidence.

IMO, some concrete announcements would help. Not more breathless speculation about another batch of third string, ride buying nameless, faceless Europeans (hoping to land an F1 test seat) or misty eyed candle lighting in the hope of two more European races that will somehow bring ChampCar to Nirvana and salvation in '08 by being more like F1 in 1978.

IMO, I imagine folks who celebrate such things as signs of success would be in the minority in the USA where our supposedly American series claims to be based. What would Ted Horn or Rex Mays think of all this?

IMO, most of us here are anything but Doom and Gloomers, we are frustrated Champ Car fans who just want to see a "Go Big or Go Penguin Watching" moment soon. No more five year plans that aren't really plans at all.

IMO, the people I speak with who work in the sport have a very good track record when it comes to assessing the true state of Champ Car. Everything that has happened since last fall was predicted with stunning accuracy by these people so, please forgive me if I now heed their pragmatic assessments rather than the spin of someone who would have us all believe that ChampCar's glass is 1/3rd full rather than 2/3rds empty as it now appears to be.

IMO, something big and bad is going on in Champ Car and with every week that passes, it looks less and less like the OWRS owners are on the same page save for one thing....

IMO, it looks more and more likely with each day of silence from these men who once boldly promised so much, that they are now engaged in something that has little to do with building our series and everything to do with cashing out or cutting their losses.

IMO, what they are now doing is not worthy of investment by sponsors nor respect from the drivers, teams and promoters. Most importantly, it is no longer worthy of devotion from us fans who have stuck with CART and now Champ Car through think and thin.

IMO, we are all burdened by memory of what this series once was just five short years ago and haunted by the promise of what could have been.

IMO, a few people who post here seem to want to be buried alive with King Tutkalkhoven when the 3-Day Festivals of Speed pyramid scheme finally collapses.

IMO, it is time to move on to a new era for open wheel racing based in reality and the hard lessons learned from the past 13 years.

;-)

I would have to say I agree with all of this and your earlier post.

I've been following this series since '70, and was a big fan of the White Paper when it came out. I loved the '90's and from the early '90's knew they were a special time that could not continue indefinitely.

I find the current version of this series difficult to recognize and have sadly reached the point where I think it would be better for it to die, than continue in its comatose state. I won't won't watch Tony's abomination until the teams should decide to get their acts together and take the sport back, if that should ever happen.

Too bad. The new ownership had such potential, but in the last year, they gave up and it's sad to see what has resulted.

[sanguin]

Links please

The "interview" is nothing new, it is weeks old, and was conducted by a CC pom pom shaker. Please supply some additional supporting FACTS. Or as you are so quick to say, provide some proof. And no, a PR interview proves nothing.

This thread is now almost 400 posts long, and I wonder how often the "links please" has been trotted out. As anyone knows, THERE ARE NO LINKS, because there is NO information, just speculation.

Moderators, don't you think it is time to shut this down?

From the article-

"Champ Car owners committed to series long-term success
by Mark Cipolloni
September 1, 2007
On the heels of the cancellation of both the China and Phoenix races this week and the resulting negative backlash that has caused, Champ Car Series owners Kevin Kalkhoven, Dan Pettit, Paul Gentilozzi, plus series President Steve Johnson and Series VP of Communications David Higdon met with a few media members and I to discuss the state of Champ Car and to ease fears that the sky is falling."

It's all there.

It's business as usual, running the series, they are still busy with racing and getting things done. They don't need to address every rumor.IMO. If that's not good enough,can't help you.

There is nothing that can't be overcome, because the foundation is there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The foundation is there but they are not building on it Sanguin. You can claim they are by going to Europe, but that is building another house across the Ocean. The one over here, they are giving up on and THAT is the wrong move. The teams are American based, and the series is an American series. It claims to carry on the heritage of the AAA OW series of the first half of the century and the USAC/CART legacy right through 1995 and onwards. Now they are going to dump on this legacy by ignoring the roots, traditions and FANS they have left here and go to Europe?

Champ Car is losing relevency because it doesn't know where its market is and the Amigo's are showing no signs of trying to grow one. Incremental growth and stability would have done wonders but it has been chaos theory management for 3 years plus now. I accepted this a bit in the beginnings, but by now, we should be seeing stablity, and yet the series makes less rational decisions now than they ever did.......

[jjjanos]

It's business as usual, running the series,

Oh, I thought you meant this was good use. If it's business as usual and they still are running the series, that would mean neither Surfer's or Mexico are going to happen, the 2008 schedule will be out in March (but 1/3 of the races won't take place) and we'll be rosily-scenarioed to death.

While I agree that not every rumor needs to be addressed, Mexico City is one that needs answering.

[sanguin]

The foundation is there but they are not building on it Sanguin. You can claim they are by going to Europe, but that is building another house across the Ocean. The one over here, they are giving up on and THAT is the wrong move. The teams are American based, and the series is an American series. It claims to carry on the heritage of the AAA OW series of the first half of the century and the USAC/CART legacy right through 1995 and onwards. Now they are going to dump on this legacy by ignoring the roots, traditions and FANS they have left here and go to Europe?

Champ Car is losing relevency because it doesn't know where its market is and the Amigo's are showing no signs of trying to grow one. Incremental growth and stability would have done wonders but it has been chaos theory management for 3 years plus now. I accepted this a bit in the beginnings, but by now, we should be seeing stablity, and yet the series makes less rational decisions now than they ever did.......

That's your opinion, I disagree.

[sanguin]

While I agree that not every rumor needs to be addressed, Mexico City is one that needs answering.

I think its answered with the Mexican drivers.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That's your opinion, I disagree.

Sanguin, I knew you would disagree. I would like you to at least try to put up a fight and tell me where I am wrong. You have to understand, I do NOT want CCWS to fail. The reason I am so bitter is because the people in charge don't see what they are doing to their image and brand by running the series like something a bunch of high school students could manage. I invested my fan's heart in this successor to CART and it makes me angry to see it so cavalierly mismanaged. We lost 2 races this year because of bad promotors and not understanding the FIA's role in determining as schedule. That just screams mickey mouse...and I was sold on a professional series that KK was promising he first took over.

Nothing is more galling than having a businessman in professional sport lie to the fans that keep him afloat.....and I feel lied to. So when you say you wont agree with me, I expect that, but then again, you have been such a carrier of water for the Amigo's, I would think you would at least have some sort of rebuttal that might have merit.

[ChaimWitz]

I did a little research and the following things (in no particular order) seem to be what all major league sports must have to succeed today:

1) A powerful brand
2) Cultural resonance and relevance
3) Well known stars
5) 3-6 Elite teams
6) A defining national or global event
8) Schedule stability
9) Business credibility
10) Format continuity
11) A target audience
12) Sponsors who activate
13) Media partners who invest
14) A long-term marketing and business strategy
15) Committed capital investors
16) The ability to create leveragable value for all stakeholders
17) A meaningful heritage

Ask yourself how many of these things Champ Car has today and what it is missing from the above list.

Then do the same for the Indy Car Series.

Ditto for ALMS. Grand-Am. NASCAR. NHRA. F1.

IMO, things are so dire for Champ Car that what happens next should solve the problem of what is missing from the above list in the most expedient and efficient way possible.

[jjjanos]

I think its answered with the Mexican drivers.

And I would say not since there the question is whether the track itself intends to hold the event. Hiring the Mexican drivers simply indicates that the series is willing to take actions to satisfy it's portion of the sanction agreement and thus would not be required to return the full sanction fee.

Sort of like how they said they could keep TMS' money, and California's money and China's money.

[seppefan]

As far as I've heard ,the teams are committed to 2 cars each with some a possiblity of 3.

Dream on !! Paulie G string running 3 cars! You make me laugh ( and cry )

I really don't know what you expect, the owners spelled it out in this interview-

They sure did. They made it clear that they were short on ideas, short on cash, missread nearly everything in motor racing terms, and KK saying the Europeans love the US way of doing things is true in that the drivers are more visible but the US car drive by and the Harleys were an embarrasment to all those that attended. It was a joke and I could have organised better cars and more with a few calls. KK alosso needs to know that there is big resentment to the US way in Europe care of Iraq and that is not a help. I spent dinner with a marketing guy from the US last Sunday, marketing IT kit and a ChampCar sponsor and he was shocked at the recoil he found from Europeans as soon as they knew he was an American. KK is way out of touch with the realities of the market place. He understand telecoms, has a big ego and is getting this one so wrong. Paulie G -String and he think Europe will be their saviour... I wondered what they thought their strategy was prior to Europe.

[sanguin]

And I would say not since there the question is whether the track itself intends to hold the event. Hiring the Mexican drivers simply indicates that the series is willing to take actions to satisfy it's portion of the sanction agreement and thus would not be required to return the full sanction fee.
.

Link please, we are not privy to the contract for the race. Another rumor from where?

so this is pure speculation. I don't think CC owners should answer this kind of rumor since it has nothing to do with fact.

[ChaimWitz]

In the name of Sanguin, what has happened to Mark Cippolini today? His Champ Car 2007 Report Card commentary on the Autoracing1 homepage reads as if it could have been taken straight from this monster thread. Is there a connection? It now appears Mark C. has become surprisingly rational and now sees Champ Car's glass 2/3rds empty like many of us here. Truth has a funny way of outlasting fiction.

I also want to correct what I posted yesterday regarding the things that all major league sports need and have to be successful. I accidentally posted it before I was finished cutting and pasting from sources I had found elsewhere: Here is the complete list:

1) A powerful brand
2) Cultural resonance and relevance
3) Well known stars
4) 3-6 Elite teams
5) A defining national or global event
6) Schedule stability
7) Business credibility
8) Format continuity
9) A target audience
10) Sponsors who activate
11) Media partners who invest
12) A long-term marketing and business strategy
13) Committed capital investors
14) The ability to create leveragable value for all stakeholders
15) A meaningful heritage
16) Defining rivalries
17) A grassroots system to develop participants

Ask yourself how many of these things Champ Car has today and what it is missing from the above list.

Then do the same for the Indy Car Series.

Ditto for ALMS. Grand-Am. NASCAR. NHRA. F1.

IMO, things are so dire for Champ Car that what happens next should solve the problem of what is missing from the above list in the most expedient and efficient way possible.

My point is this: If Champ Car were a real business, the problems above would be approached in a logical and strategic manner. Instead, it appears to be a broken hobby toy or a misplayed opportunistic ploy run entirely by ego and reactive tank slapper changes in a flawed plan born of hubris.

For many here, that perspective is still hard to see or accept since, for them, “The Split” is still a hate-fueled Holy War against King George and the heathens. But, again, as someone else pointed out in this thread, the moral imperative that justified this Holy War mentality was once CART's and for a time, it was Champ Car's battle flag but that has now been lost with the ongoing dilution of the sports identity in pursuit of sanction fees to stay alive. The majority of CART's defining teams, drivers, tracks, and sponsors as well as its venue diversity and heritage have now been lost in the past five years. As others have asked in this thread: What exactly are we still fighting for?

Another person commented that Champ Car doesn't stand for anything any more. I disagree. It now stands for delusional thinking, chronic failure and deceptive leadership. This is so sad given what Champ Car and CART once represented. Think back to just ten short years ago… it would have been very hard to imagine what this has all devolved to today.

Despite Sanguin’s (nearly 300) “all is well” posts on these boards since this thread began on August 30, I now believe that most rational people who visit here now understand that time is just about up for Champ Car. I also think most of us now see that it is finally now time to take what is left of Champ Car and the bulk of what is in the Indy Car Series and make the best of it in 2008 and beyond rather than waiting for Champ Car’s inevitable collapse. History teaches us that any other "plan" is sheer folly.

Perhaps Mark Cippolini's surprising choice to join us on the last train to sanity might serve as a last call to the owners of OWRS who could still yet find success in that special place called Reality.

I love this sport but I am sick and tired of sanctioning body and ownership politics ruining my interest in it and polluting the atmosphere for business. I no longer care who started it or why. I just care about someone having the balls to end this Split. So, I am very sad to say it, but Champ Car has had its shot and it is now officially a dismal DNQ. Merge, purge or put it on the trailer and go home.

[jjjanos]

Link please, we are not privy to the contract for the race. Another rumor from where?

so this is pure speculation. I don't think CC owners should answer this kind of rumor since it has nothing to do with fact.

If there are no contractual obligations to have a minimum of 2 Mexican drivers, then please justify YOUR ASSERTION that the placement of 2 Mexican drivers in rides provides any information or indication that the Mexico City race will take place.

Which is it - the Mexicans are an indication that CCWS is willing to honor the contract or the Mexicans are not an indication that CCWS is willing to honor the contract?

In either event, it does nothing to refute the RUMORS that the Mexican promoter may bail this year.

It is FACT that there is no information available regarding the Mexico City race and it is impossible to purchase tickets for said race, there is a RUMOR that this race is in trouble.

Given the FACT that CCWS has cancelled multiple races this season and these cancellations were RUMORED weeks to months in advance of the cancellation, one would ASSUME that the series would attempt to dispel concerns regarding the Mexico City event.

It has been RUMORED by journalists and the replaced drivers that the hiring was done to satisfy CCWS' contractual obligations. While one could LINK to these assertions, they are not, in fact, PROOF of these contractual obligations.

[SeanMockery]

I called the Champ Car office in Indy today (and spoke to a live body too!! :D ), to ask when they anticipated release of the 2008 schedule. They are projecting December. :eek:

Kinda late in the game to line up prospective sponsors if you ask me IMO.

[heelntoe]

I called the Champ Car office in Indy today (and spoke to a live body too!! :D ), to ask when they anticipated release of the 2008 schedule. They are projecting December. :eek:

Kinda late in the game to line up prospective sponsors if you ask me IMO.

Add to the news from CCWS that CDW is gone from Champcar as reported by AR1 green confirm in the rumor page!!! RuSport also rumored to be gone...what do you have to say today Sanguin?

[nigelred5]

They sure did. They made it clear that they were short on ideas, short on cash, missread nearly everything in motor racing terms, and KK saying the Europeans love the US way of doing things is true in that the drivers are more visible but the US car drive by and the Harleys were an embarrasment to all those that attended. It was a joke and I could have organised better cars and more with a few calls. KK alosso needs to know that there is big resentment to the US way in Europe care of Iraq and that is not a help. I spent dinner with a marketing guy from the US last Sunday, marketing IT kit and a ChampCar sponsor and he was shocked at the recoil he found from Europeans as soon as they knew he was an American. KK is way out of touch with the realities of the market place. He understand telecoms, has a big ego and is getting this one so wrong. Paulie G -String and he think Europe will be their saviour... I wondered what they thought their strategy was prior to Europe.


I glad to see someone else here finally has the nerve to say what I've been saying about International expansion and the US image on the world stage lately. Sorry, KK is still blinded by ownership. China? c'mon has anyone seen the Sino/Russian sabre rattling aimed at the US lately? How about all the product scandals lately. There's more than a little specualtion that much of the tainted products coming out of China is less than a coincidence. Paranoia, maybe, but I still lsee little evidence of any kind of chinese advertising for ANYTHING but the local carryout. They produce goods, we buy them marketed by Domestic companies.
Sure people may like American things, but they arent' exactly fond of America or Americans right now. Unpopular wars do that. I find past rumors of expansion to Greece comical if they are going to push the American angle. My cousin is married to a Greek woman and he has to all but put it on mute when visiting family in Greece he gets harassed so much and he is NOT easy to pick out of a crowd as an American by any means.

[pits4me]

I called the Champ Car office in Indy today (and spoke to a live body too!! :D ), to ask when they anticipated release of the 2008 schedule. They are projecting December. :eek:

Kinda late in the game to line up prospective sponsors if you ask me IMO.

Sponsorships have been secured on tentative schedules for decades. What's important are what events are likely to stay and the probability of new ones.

[Chaparral66]

IMO, the firing of drivers Ryan Dalziel and Oriol Servia from PCM and Forsythe (obviously fact, not speculation) was indictative of the chaotic nature of Champ Car this year. A last minute knee-jerk decision to secure short term viability without a long term plan. That's my opinion, but it seems consistent with many things that have in CCWS this year.

Why fire these two drivers just to get Mexican drivers for the last two races (particularly Mexico)? Just to fufill a contract? Dalziel, acording to Robin Miller at SPEEDTV.com, had turned in some very good performances for PCM this year, and this is even more ridiculous with Servia, who has outdriven Paul Tracy throughout most of the year, in a ride that Forsythe said he wasn't even going to have on the track this year.

It seems to me that PCM and Forsythe could have built additional cars for these two drivers, that would have avoided alienating fans of Dalziel and Servia, who were starting to build a small following. Not only, that, it would have increased the car count to at least 19, which is a good thing for the race. Now, I'm the first one to say how easy it is to spend someone else's money to build a car, especially given the tight budgets the teams have.

But...

If Our Good Friend Tony George can finance a large portion of the field to make the magic number of 33 at Indy, The Amigos can get together and spend a few bucks to build two cars to accommodate David Martinez and Mario Dominguez. Give the devil his due, once George either realized the stupidity of his "33 is just a number" remark, or swallowed his pride after hearing the reaction to it, he made damn sure these last few years, where it clearly was touch and go, to have 33 cars start the Indy 500. This is the difference right now between the IRL and Champ Car: the IRL stays on course, in spite of it's CART wanna-be approach, while CC tries to chase the wind. Don't get me wrong, I want as much as anything for CC to right the ship, but it's taking on water, and the Amigos are slow to see it.

[Cart750hp]

Do CC owners think that the Mexican fans are that stupid to not know that Dominguez and Martinez are being use up just because of Mexico event? I'm still waiting for one of the teams to add Lavin on that line-up.

[Hoop-98]

Maybe we got into trouble when we had 670 700 720 725 750 775 and 800 HP power levels in the same season depending on track and altitude. You need a program to know what you are watching power - wise.


rh

[Cart750hp]

Maybe we got into trouble when we had 670 700 720 725 750 775 and 800 HP power levels in the same season depending on track and altitude. You need a program to know what you are watching power - wise.


rh

That too.

[ChaimWitz]

Regardless of how the OWRS owners are spinning it, Mexico is in deep trouble as a Champ Car event. The same old problems have reared their ugly heads: Lack of fan and commercial support (see the translated item on the Autoracing1 home page). There is simply is no real economy behind the series to make it work for promoters, teams and drivers.

Recently, heelntoe stated on this thread that Next Marketing had resigned the Champ Car sales account mere months after enthusiastically taking on the assignment. I can now add that I have had independent confirmation that this is true. The reasons why they chose to quit were told to me in confidence but I can share that most here would not be surprised at all. I will also be shocked if CDW continues with Champ Car given what I now know.

I can't help but get the feeling that the ownership of OWRS is doing their deceptive best to keep appearances up by never confirming negative events until their hand is forced. Why is anyone's guess? My hunch is that it is that old sucker game of trying to convince current and potential promoters and teams that things are not as bad as they really are.

When the 9-13 race 2008 schedule is finally announced we will all know the hard truth so what is all this posturing really about?

Well, things really are as bad as they appear. Actually, they are far worse given the apparent deceptive nature of some of the men who own Champ Car. It seems that lying and hiding the truth is viewed as the only hope.

It does not have to be this way. Honesty and sincerity go a long way in business and in life. Establishing realistic expectations is part of saving or growing a business. Doing the opposite is part of killing one.

[Ruben Barrios]

The PR Spin machine is starting to ignite in Mexico for the race... SJ satated in an interview, that he will surprise us with a schedule in two weeks... He did not commit on weather CCWS is going to be back in Aztec soil next year (hmmm GF pissed off?), but he did state a commitment with the country.. what ever that means (probably a change in venue --again GF?--)...

SJ stated that MD and Martinez are key factors for the promotion of the race in Autodromo. Also he said that even though the title may be defined in Australia, drivers will be very focused on second and third...

This all acording to Reforma, one of the leading newspapers in Mexico...

[Andrewmcm]

I don't have any insider info, I don't claim to know anyone in the series, but from a casual fan's perspective I think that losing CDW and (possibly) having Mexico fall by the wayside would spell the end of my interest in the series, if not the end of the series itself. The owners and the yes-men of CCWS can say all they want to about a plan and a vision, but the momentum for this series definitely seems largely negative and that will not inspire confidence in potential sponsors and current teams.

Their idea of going to Europe is flawed as there are no particular reasons as the why CCWS will stand out in a crowd of several sub-F1 level racing series. Unless they bring in lots of European drivers and have the majority of their season in Europe, in which case their already limited North American sponsor base will be alienated and no doubt look to a more US-centered series. They may pick up European sponsors, but it will take several years of spending from CCWS to establish a solid set of races here. Time, and money, it would seem, that they do not have. Rockingham and Eurospeedway could have succeeded back in 2002 and onwards, but the management at the time chose to move away from ovals.

As I said above I don't know anything about the inner working of the series, I can only go on what I read in the press, and as far as I can see our horizontally challeneged female is grabbing the mic and getting ready to warble a tune.....

[beachbum]

Champ Car finally has a link to a web site for Mexico

http://www.granpremiotecate.com/

Of course it is in Spanish and my Spanish is too rusty to get anything from it. But the web site exists.

[Chaparral66]

Do CC owners think that the Mexican fans are that stupid to not know that Dominguez and Martinez are being use up just because of Mexico event? I'm still waiting for one of the teams to add Lavin on that line-up.

No, they are not, and no one should expect them to be. They will see through this sham as the American and Canadian fans do; if the crowd isn't that big, you will know why.

[Cart750hp]

No, they are not, and no one should expect them to be.

....but they are....

[quote="Chaparral66'355504"]They will see through this sham as the American and Canadian fans do]

How can you count on the a big crowd when they just announced two weeks ago that they are cutting more grandstands? Plus, the on-call drivers are up.

[Chaparral66]

....but they are....[/QOUTE]

No, they are NOT. Not stupid, that is; which was the answer to your rethorical question. The fans down there follow the sport, have seen the same shananigans we have have, and probably are just as unhappy at the musical chairs of various Mexican drivers. They won't be fooled for a moment about this last minute deal. When Adrian Fernandez raced in front of his home crowd, that was legitimate, and something you could use to promote the race. This late in the game sub won't placate anything or anyone but the contract, and Mexican racing fans would be just as annoyed at throwing out a driver who earned the ride as we would. Racing fans the world over speak a universal language, and the common response to this kind of thing.





How can you count on the a big crowd when they just announced two weeks ago that they are cutting more grandstands? Plus, the on-call drivers are up.

I think we're saying the same thing, here. Would they be cutting grand stands if they expected a big crowd? Why cut out stands and ***** customers if they expected a lot to show up?

[Cart750hp]

No, they are NOT. Not stupid, that is; which was the answer to your rethorical question. The fans down there follow the sport, have seen the same shananigans we have have, and probably are just as unhappy at the musical chairs of various Mexican drivers. They won't be fooled for a moment about this last minute deal. When Adrian Fernandez raced in front of his home crowd, that was legitimate, and something you could use to promote the race. This late in the game sub won't placate anything or anyone but the contract, and Mexican racing fans would be just as annoyed at throwing out a driver who earned the ride as we would. Racing fans the world over speak a universal language, and the common response to this kind of thing is.

I was talking about how the owners are out of their minds if they think the Mexicans are that stupid to not know that they are being mislead. I won't be surprised to find out CC giving freebies this time.



I think we're saying the same thing, here. Would they be cutting grand stands if they expected a big crowd? Why cut out stands and ***** off customers if they expected a lot to show up?

Yes we are talking the same tune, Chaparral.

Why did "they" (as in owners) tell people that there would be a huge announcement in Laguna Seca when there was nothing to announce and not a word from the management that day? (well, not until KK spoke about swimming with penguins)

Why did they put China on schedule when it wasn't even finalized?

Why say there will be at least 20 cars when you are not sure if there will be?

....this is not a new thing from CC management/owners. SJ's statement for Mexico said there'll be 200K. What the heck is wrong with this management? Obviously, these guys like to make a fool of themselves a lot while their fanatics see this as a good thing. I have a feeling that Steve Johnson is making money through comission by the number of people he can mislead. I think it's possible. I believe he said that the schedule for 08 will be out within two weeks and it's a world class schedule. Anyone still believe this fool?

[Chaparral66]

I was talking about how the owners are out of their minds if they think the Mexicans are that stupid to not know that they are being mislead. I won't be surprised to find out CC giving freebies this time.




Yes we are talking the same tune, Chaparral.

Why did "they" (as in owners) tell people that there would be a huge announcement in Laguna Seca when there was nothing to announce and not a word from the management that day? (well, not until KK spoke about swimming with penguins)

Why did they put China on schedule when it wasn't even finalized?

Why say there will be at least 20 cars when you are not sure if there will be?

....this is not a new thing from CC management/owners. SJ's statement for Mexico said there'll be 200K. What the heck is wrong with this management? Obviously, these guys like to make a fool of themselves a lot while their fanatics see this as a good thing. I have a feeling that Steve Johnson is making money through comission by the number of people he can mislead. I think it's possible. I believe he said that the schedule for 08 will be out within two weeks and it's a world class schedule. Anyone still believe this fool?

It would be hard to. You'd think this guy has heard of the cliche, "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched". Never brag about the crowd until they show, and hopefully in the numbers you're aiming for. Never put a date in a schedule you haven't got an ironclad contract for. This stuff is so basic, it's insulting to have to rant about it.

I used to produce and direct a TV show covering short track racing here in New England. I also sold the advertising for it. I worked my butt off from sunrise to sunset, but I finally got some clients and had the biggest revenue of any show on our small system. But I NEVER talked to anyone about clients I had backing our show until I had them signed on. That would have been PR and financial suicide if I did. 'Course, we're not talking the numbers that The Amigos are used to dealing with; but just like politics, all business is local, and you don't brag about a client you don't have signed. He'll pull out of any discussion in a NYC minute if he feels you are saying something you shouldn't, just to show you don't control the strings. I also learned pretty quickly that all sponsors and partners are high-maintenence relationships, and you have to keep cultivating them if you want them to stay. This attitude should have applied to Ford, and I would say this applies to venues that Champ Car races at currently, venues they are pursuing, and even places they are returning to after being away for a while, like Mazda Raceway at Laguna Seca and fairly recently, Road America. Real basic, common sense stuff, people. Don't need to be a brain surgeon to follow those simple guidelines.

[tbyars]

It would be hard to. You'd think this guy has heard of the cliche, "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched". Never brag about the crowd until they show, and hopefully in the numbers you're aiming for. Never put a date in a schedule you haven't got an ironclad contract for. This stuff is so basic, it's insulting to have to rant about it.

Personally, I don't believe a word that comes out of Johnson's mouth. And it's not because I believe he is a dishonest guy. I don't believe him because he's not in the communication loop any longer. All he knows is what the owners pay him to hear, and his job now is to believe what they tell him.

And when this all winds down, he'll be the only one left to take the fall. JMO.

[indycool]

The latest Johnson quotes in a Mexican sports paper about that race tell that story.

[beachbum]

Just when Champ Car doesn't need another shoe to fall, David Malsher has an interesting article in Autosport about Champ Cars unluckiest driver. He covered the Dalziel and Servia situation, but brought up a new rumor, that Tagliani and Rocketsports won't make the bell for the last 2 races. Apparently the rumor was very strong at the Sebring test.

http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1272

[heelntoe]

Just when Champ Car doesn't need another shoe to fall, David Malsher has an interesting article in Autosport about Champ Cars unluckiest driver. He covered the Dalziel and Servia situation, but brought up a new rumor, that Tagliani and Rocketsports won't make the bell for the last 2 races. Apparently the rumor was very strong at the Sebring test.

http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1272

IMO, a high degree of liklihood on this one. If , as has been said, that PG's team merger and other behavior had anything to do with CDW leaving RuSport, his relationship with Petit would be strained at best...at this juncture, KK would lean towards his old pal from the JDSU club over PG, and PG knows it. If, as some believe, the series will have its plug pulled between Surfer's and MC. then PG is doing his typical pre-emptive disappearing act and won't be returning calls.

[sanguin]

IMO, a high degree of liklihood on this one. If , as has been said, that PG's team merger and other behavior had anything to do with CDW leaving RuSport, his relationship with Petit would be strained at best...at this juncture, KK would lean towards his old pal from the JDSU club over PG, and PG knows it. If, as some believe, the series will have its plug pulled between Surfer's and MC. then PG is doing his typical pre-emptive disappearing act and won't be returning calls.



Petit is part owner of CC,and no one is pulling any plug.

IMO

[heelntoe]

Petit is part owner of CC,and no one is pulling any plug.

IMO

Dude, I was there when Petit joined as an owner, so be real careful where you tread concerning statements about the ownership structure of CCWS...and as to the plug getting pulled, as I stated, as "some" have said! Frankly, I also believe it will be pulled, but not until after the season...but time will tell, won't it?

[sanguin]

Dude, I was there when Petit joined as an owner, so be real careful where you tread concerning statements about the ownership structure of CCWS...and as to the plug getting pulled, as I stated, as "some" have said! Frankly, I also believe it will be pulled, but not until after the season...but time will tell, won't it?

That's your opinion. I'm saving all these predictions see how many come true, it doesn't look good.

Good to see you know about ownership then. It makes the scenario far fetched.

Anyone can say anything, I know so much depends on CC's demise for another series, and its the motivation for the rumors, but there just isn't any fact to point to any credibility other than CC will continue.IMO

[heelntoe]

That's your opinion. I'm saving all these predictions see how many come true, it doesn't look good.

Good to see you know about ownership then. It makes the scenario far fetched.

Anyone can say anything, I know so much depends on CC's demise for another series, and its the motivation for the rumors, but there just isn't any fact to point to any credibility other than CC will continue.IMO

You mean like my prediction that Phoenix wouldn't happen? Your posts have shown so little basis of fact that taking the position you do erodes posting credibility daily. As far as the ownership structure, why exactly would it make that scenario unlikely? PG is a minority stakeholder at this juncture and there's no major requirements of that ownership structure to be at any race, run any cars or do anything other than the capital calls that are built into the ownership, which, I might add, is why he is a minority shareholder. Your constant reference to the demise of CCWS for the benefit of the IRL bares no relation to my interests as I've never even been to an IRL race (as most already know).

And I do hope you hold on to all the predictions as many of us will be calling them out as well when the dust settles. My guess/opinion is that we will all remain here and either eat crow or say "I told you so"...you, however, will likely be absent from that exchange as fast as you arrived...again, IMO.

[tbyars]

sanguin, NOTHING depends on the demise of CCWS. Except for CCWS.

Just like in the last days of CART, the demise of CCWS will be their own undoing as a result of poor managment (the failure of three scheduled races during the year and the loss of two naming sponsors while the primary owner vacationed in Antartica), lack of a direction (the blind hope that the DP-01 would lead to significantly larger fields, which it did not) and an almost complete lack of significant sponsorship on both the team and venue level (conspicuously blank side pods, loss of race sponsorships throught the season and the breakdown of team sponsors, like Lexington Energy and now CDW, it appears, as the season progressed.)

These aren't my opinions. These are well documented and reported upon facts (so don't ask for links; you know these to be facts as well as anyone else and you know how to use Google, too).

Nothing points to the series continuing except blind hope. Nor will it until a 2008 schedule is released, and, in that regard, again mismanagement rears its ugly head once more. Even the series can't get that straight. Johnson is quoted in a Mexican newspaper this week as saying the schedule will be released in about two weeks (link to that report available on this forum), yet if you call the CCWS office in Indy (I have; have you?) you are told the 2008 schedule will be released "around Christmas." Sorry, no link on that, but I know of no way to link a phone conversation. I can just encourage you to call yourself and ask.

I am one who does indeed believe (my personal opinion) that the series ownership is going to pull the plug right after Surfers. To me, all the signs point to that. I don't believe Mexico will happen, nor will I until, at minimum, you can show me an official link where I can buy a ticket.

I also believe (again, my personal opinion) that, if that indeed does happen, the poster we know as sanguin will abruptly disappear forever. He won't show up here again to admit that his opinions were wrong.

[sanguin]

What you offered is an opinion.There are no facts to point to"pulling the plug".

please provide proof of blank sidpods in 2007, I do not recall any.

The events had good sponsorship.Name a series that hasn't lost a sponsor.Even Nascar can't find a sponsor for their secondary series.

Name one series that hasn't changed their schedule.

none of these things are life-threatening or can't be overcome. But I will hold you to your prediction and promise I will come back and face the results, which will be to my advantage, IMO.

Rumor, CC to Brands Hatch and the Nurburgring in 2008.

[john2112]

sanguin, NOTHING depends on the demise of CCWS. Except for CCWS.

Just like in the last days of CART, the demise of CCWS will be their own undoing as a result of poor managment...

I’m not sure it’s that simple. It appears Mazda jumped in at the last minute to save the MC race just like they did in Portland, and Mazda Mexico is partially sponsoring Mario’s car for the race.

Until I see signs that Mazda’s withdrawing their support for CC, I’ll have a hard time thinking the end is near. Without knowing Zoom Zoom’s plans or intentions I think it’s impossible to make any clear predictions as to CC’s fate. Mazda could end it all or keep it going - and at least for now - they seem to keep it going.
-John

[tbyars]

What you offered is an opinion.

No. several of the items I offered were facts. You just chose to hide behind "IMO" to ignore them.


There are no facts to point to"pulling the plug".

And I CLEARLY stated it as such, and gave the basis for my opinion, rather than just stating it was my opinion with absolutely NO support, as you do.


please provide proof of blank sidpods in 2007, I do not recall any.

You recall wrong.

Look at the photos from the last CC event on the MotorSports Forum. Look at the very first picture. What sponsor is on the sidepod of Kat's car?


The events had good sponsorship.

Who was the event sponsor for Vegas? What was the given reson for Phoenix not happening? What ws the given reason for things falling apart in China?


Name a series that hasn't lost a sponsor.Even Nascar can't find a sponsor for their secondary series.

We're not talking about other series. We are talking about CCWS.


Name one series that hasn't changed their schedule.

The IRL ran EXACTLY the schedule in 2007 that was released last year. NASCAR (NNC and Busch) ran EXACTLY the schedule in 2007 that was released last year. I believe ALMS and Grand Am ran EXACTLY the same schedule that was released for 2007. I believe NHRA ran EXACTLY the schedule that was released.

Name one other series that cancelled three races from its announced schedule from 2007.


none of these things are life-threatening or can't be overcome.

Agreed. But they won't fix themselves. Name ONE THING CCWS, as a series, has done to address any of these issues in the past 90 days. When do you believe the CCWS schedule will make an appearance? When do you think Mexico City tickets will go on sale? "Don't wait for the translation;" answer the question. You won''t, though. You just ignore things like this.


But I will hold you to your prediction and promise I will come back and face the results, which will be to my advantage, IMO.

And that is fine. I have been wrong before, and am still here, 1,500 posts and 5 years later because I faced up to being wrong.

I'm not the question here. You are the question. Will you hold the same standard, or will you run away if and when you are proven to be wrong?


Rumor, CC to Brands Hatch and the Nurburgring in 2008.

Rumor, CC will become a series that races llamas in the far east in 2008.

It has just as much credibility.

[cartpix]

please provide proof of blank sidpods in 2007, I do not recall any.



Do you recall this one?

http://www.deepthrottle.com/Photo/roadamerica07/07_ra_c_photo_22.shtml

Jeff

[jimispeed]

Compared to other years gone by, I think the series sidepods have looked very good this year!!!

[ChaimWitz]

Compared to other years gone by, I think the series sidepods have looked very good this year!!!

Yes, Jimspeed, the sidepods did look better this year compared to the past three seasons but next year is not looking very promising now that Lexington Energy, Hustler and AVN are out of the picture. More on that later.

On the plus side, kudos should go to the folks at Mazda if they did in fact step up to help out Mario Dominquez and save the Mexico City race at the last minute. My frustration with the series owners and management does not extend to the promoters, manufacturer, sponsors and the drivers nor do I want Champ Car's fans in Mexico to be let down. That said, the Mazda people must be tired of getting ChampCar's 911 calls. Regardless, muchas gracias Mazda for all you do.

The time has now come for “Chaim's Dozen What Happens Next" predictions. I will eat digital (Kosher) crow personally served by Sanguin if I am wrong on more than half of these. Looking into my crystal ball (shaped exactly like Paulie G-String's shiny head) I see that the following will occur in Champ Car in 2008:

1) CDW will be gone and instead be in ALMS but certain people will pretend this is only a flesh wound.

2) Medi | Zone will have followed CDW out the door but will not appear in another series. Some here will claim that they will still be in the series until reality sets in at the first race in Long Beach.

3) Red Bull -- They won’t be back as a Champ Car team sponsor but their logos will still remain on a few driver’s helmets. Certain people wearing rose colored glasses will point to this as proof that Red Bull is committed to Champ Car’s Three Day Festivals of Speed format.

4) The Las Vegas race will not happen in 2008 but certain folks will attend anyhow and rave about what a rockin' event it was and how much larger the crowd was than the IRL opener in Homestead.

5) China will be stillborn in 2008… and 2009… and 2010. Everyone, including Chairman Bill France Jr. and Chairman Mao himself will be named as co-conspirators in killing the race by the people who frequent CCF.

6) Tags will sue Paulie G-String for monies owed and nobody will be surprised when the story breaks in AVN followed by a spread in Hustler.

7) One major Champ Car team will leave for another series after 2007. (Then others will wonder what kind of deal that team got and a certain phone in Speedway, Indiana will start ringing. The Champ Car team owners who call will all change their minds about leaving the series after listening to “I am Indy” while on hold.)

8) Steve Johnson will leave Champ Car after the season and be blamed for everything regardless of where the real blame lies. Garrett Mudd and John Claget will last exactly 1.72 seconds longer than Johnson. Tony Cotman will be elevated to the position of "President For A Day" and after that one day passes he will move on to the IRL as Brain Barnhart's No. 2 where he will be given the tough jobs of making sure Manica finally wins a race and Dilka Muno experiences the joy of full throttle at least once in her life.

9) There will only be 4 races in the USA, 2 in Europe, 3 in Canada, 1 in Australia in 2008 (if there is a 2008 season). This will come after Champ Car boldly leaks a tentative schedule showing 6 races in the USA, 4 in Europe, 3 in Canada, 1 in Australia and 1 in Mexico.

10) There will be a special media talk with the four OWRS owners and the two media people left who cover the series. The Amigos will again proclaim all is well and Kevin Kalkhoven will promise that 2009 will be the breakout season. These two reporters will be pleased because they like traveling on Kevin’s G5 and they have already written the story (in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007). All they will need to do is change the dates and swap the events that were cancelled this year for the events that will be cancelled in 2008.

11) in an effort to mainstream the sport, a Champ Car driver will be one of the contestants on "Prancing With The Cars", (a new "espn 8" reality show). The format will involve running across the racetrack during a race. Twenty-two past and present Champ Car drivers plus the entire Atlantic grid will apply for the one open spot on the show. All will figure that they have a better chance of getting paid or getting famous by being on this show than they do racing in the Champ Car World Series in 2008. They will all know that there will only be 12 cars in most of the races so the chances of getting hit by one of them will be about as slim as the chances of getting paid by Paulie G-String.

12) Sherwin Williams will not cover the earth with Champ Car in 2008. Instead the earth will cover Champ Car and Sherwin Williams will be used to gloss over the sad truth of why this happend.

What do you predict?

[sanguin]

Compared to other years gone by, I think the series sidepods have looked very good this year!!!

I agree

[djparky]

nothing will happen- CCWS will limp on for another year and they'll promise that everything will be better next year....pull the plug guys- for the sake of OWR in the USA- there's nothing to suggest that 2008 will be any better than this year

and with it's new schedule the IRL has morphed into what CART was in terms of diversity of tracks etc

[ChaimWitz]

nothing will happen- CCWS will limp on for another year and they'll promise that everything will be better next year....pull the plug guys- for the sake of OWR in the USA- there's nothing to suggest that 2008 will be any better than this year

and with it's new schedule the IRL has morphed into what CART was in terms of diversity of tracks etc

Well, djparky, that sadly sums it up. Read it and weep mi Amigos.

On the negative side, I have heard from very good sources that CDW has said "no" to sponsoring Newman/Haas/Lanigan in 2008 and that Medi | Zone will most certainly not return either next year (as predicted). The latter fact has been known for some time. These two factors could be important in determining what happens next for Champ Car's most famous team.

Finally, on the plus side, I have heard that chances are good that a personal connection of the Figge family may land a Mexican beer sponsor for the team for 2008, thus the Mario Dominguez deal. This of course depends on the Mexican beer company being convinced that there will be a 2008 Champ Car season.

[heelntoe]

Well, djparky, that sadly sums it up. Read it and weep mi Amigos.

On the negative side, I have heard from very good sources that CDW has said "no" to sponsoring Newman/Haas/Lanigan in 2008 and that Medi | Zone will most certainly not return either next year (as predicted). The latter fact has been known for some time. These two factors could be important in determining what happens next for Champ Car's most famous team.

Finally, on the plus side, I have heard that chances are good that a personal connection of the Figge family may land a Mexican beer sponsor for the team for 2008, thus the Mario Dominguez deal. This of course depends on the Mexican beer company being convinced that there will be a 2008 Champ Car season.

Going a step further, i am also hearing that proof of financial solvency and ability to perform are being required from all directions and that there is pushback from the Amigos as it actually demands a performance guaranteee which would cost a fortune if they cancelled a race or didn't have enough cars on the grid. This presents a stalemate as the team clearly don't have sponsorship locked down for next season...IMO, it's this stalemate that will give the greatest chance of a cancelled season...though i agree that NHL are likely to be gone, making this scenario near impossible to resolve easily...time will tell.

[sanguin]

I'm hearing that a conserted effort is being made to try to project the issue of CC's demise. That the scenario is that contracts are on the line and merger is being forced unless another series can convince others that CC will fail.

This has a long way to go as its being fought on the internet with no real proof, just rumor mongering by so-called insiders. Just like every year, when these predictions come out, wrong again.

sorry.

[sanguin]

and with it's new schedule the IRL has morphed into what CART was in terms of diversity of tracks etc

Nope ,its not CART. It doesn't have LB, Toronto, Cleveland, RA, LS,Surfers, Mexico City, etc.

their schedule is uninspired.

[ChaimWitz]

I'm hearing that a conserted effort is being made to try to project the issue of CC's demise. That the scenario is that contracts are on the line and merger is being forced unless another series can convince others that CC will fail.

This has a long way to go as its being fought on the internet with no real proof, just rumor mongering by so-called insiders. Just like every year, when these predictions come out, wrong again.

sorry.

Sanguin, happy one month anniversary of your first post here - I have enjoyed all 312! So, I am sure you are listening to same people who said Honda would leave the IRL in 2005, then in 2006, then in 2007, then in 2008. I am also pretty sure that the dark forces that you imply are involved in spreading these supposedly unfounded rumors of Champ Car's impending implosion had nothing to do with all the countless screw-ups, setbacks, disasters and cancellations in the series during the past year. Most sane people can now see for themselves that things are not getting better. Instead they are getting much worse and those who deny this reality are looking more bizarre and delusional by the day. As for rumors, okay, some of what I posted here are just rumors for now... but not for long. Does all this bad news make me happy? No, it confirms my fear that Champ Car is not viable without the significant and perpetual financial support of the OWRS owners. Given what I have seen this year, I just can't see that happening forever. In the meantime, A1GP, GP2, ALMS, IRL, Grand-Am, etc. will move ahead professionally while our once proud series continues to stumble and fall like a drunken has-been in the back alleys of motorsports irrelevance. That just makes me sick. Sorry.

[ChaimWitz]

Nope ,its not CART. It doesn't have LB, Toronto, Cleveland, RA, LS,Surfers, Mexico City, etc.

their schedule is uninspired.

As much as some of us hate the following, the Indy Car Series does have Indy, St. Pete, Milwaukee, Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio, Belle Isle, a rights fee from ABC/ESPN, Penske, Target/Ganassi, Rahal/Letterman, Andretti/Green, Honda, Firestone, numerous sponsors, a ratings pulse and 15 US races.

Their schedule may be uninspired but ito many it now looks more like the CART of the early 1990s than ChampCar does now. At least the IRL has a schedule and they stick to it. Call that uninspired if you will, but I prefer that to the supposedly inspired schedule making that has been going on in Champ Car since the Amigos took over. How many venues has the Champ Car abandoned in the past four seasons and how many races have failed to come off once announced? It looks like next season promises more of the same chaos. To me, that is bad news.

[sanguin]

So, I am sure you are listening to same people who said Honda would leave the IRL in 2005, then in 2006, then in 2007, then in 2008.

IMO honda will there in 2008, after that, nascar?

[cartpix]

(snip) and that Medi | Zone will most certainly not return either next year (as predicted). The latter fact has been known for some time.

What makes you think they were there, this year? Let's face facts. Has anyone ever heard of Medi Zone? Do they sound like a company that could free up enough capital to sponsor a top running CC operation, for a whole season. Medi Zone was something to put on the side of the car, after the "technology based" sponsor (rumored to have been Google) fell through. If you think it was any more money than enough to run Las Vegas & Long Beach, you're wearing the same rose colored glasses as sanguin. And no, sanguin, I don't have a link. As they say, this is my own opinion.

Jeff

[ChaimWitz]

IMO honda will there in 2008, after that, nascar?

We will see about Honda but from what I am hearing, Sanguin won't like the answer for 2009 and beyond. If no announcement is forthcoming either way, at least he/she and the other blind faithful will still be able to speculate that Honda will be gone to NASCAR or elsewhere at some undefined point in the near or distant future, by which time (if or when) losing Honda probably won't still represent the shimmering ($2000-bottle-of-wine-induced) mirage of salvation it once did to the OWRS owners. Champ Car will likely be in even worse shape by then (if it still exists) than it is now. Hanging on to the hope of the IRL's collapse seems to be what got us all to this point so I no longer put any faith in that line of thinking. More importanly, and back on topic, the trend for Champ Car is not encouraging and it is plain for all to see, but only if they chose truth over fiction.

[pvtjoker]

Nope ,its not CART. It doesn't have LB, Toronto, Cleveland, RA, LS,Surfers, Mexico City, etc.

their schedule is uninspired.

Well, thats your opinion, Indy holds more tradition than all of thoses races combined. In any case, for all of the IRL's "lack of inspiration" in their schedule, at least they don't cancel races at breakneck speed like some open wheel series do these days. Do you need a link????

[djparky]

Nope ,its not CART. It doesn't have LB, Toronto, Cleveland, RA, LS,Surfers, Mexico City, etc.

their schedule is uninspired.

No it's not CART (sadly) however- San Jose, Vegas, Houston are pretty dismal to me

add LB, RA, Cleveland, Surfers and Toronto to the IRL and lop off a couple of ovals and you have a great calendar

anyway it's probably ony a matter of time before the egos running CCWS have had enough the aggravation that they get and pull the plug on it, hopefully that day will be sooner rather than later (before I get ripped apart I was a CART loyalist in the 1996-2002 era)

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Vegas dismal? Obviously, you were NOT there. I hope and pray, GB at RA is smart enough to never let the .irl spoil RA.

[FlatChatRacer]

We shall see, who is closer to the truth.

Steve Johnson will be providing us all with details of the Champ Car 2008 schedule within the next two weeks. I can't wait to see it.

Personally, I happen to think that the schedule will not appear until after Mexico City in November, or even later.

What a complete and utter shambles Champ Car is right now.

[jjjanos]

Steve Johnson will be providing us all with details of the Champ Car 2008 schedule within the next two weeks. I can't wait to see it.

And this will tell us what about where CCWS will be racing in 2008?

[ChaimWitz]

I do get the impression that Champ Car and the OWRS owners are grasping at anything that will make them look like the have some sort of a future now that things look as chaotic as a flatulent evening with Britney Spears. Some of this takes the form of announcements we are now seeing aimed at the pressing need to replenish the endless string of short term, one-off and two-off event or driver-centered sponsorships. It seems that the Amigos need to try to maintain appearances to help convince whomever is actually paying for the proposed new European rounds that there will be a viable series in 2008. One would expect those individuals will do their homework and look into what is behind all the scrubbed events, sponsor departures and other bad news. That can't be good for Champ Car, but the language barrier may help them this time -- especially if the prospective promoters can't read English.

I agree with FlatChatRacer... the calendar won't be clear until much later in the year. When this is finally released, it will leave many wondering: "what the hell is this?". There will sputtering protestations of unfair treatment and seductive promises of this and that from the OWRS owners and ChampCar management just like in years past but now, not many people are left who will believe them. Unless they sign Michael Schumacher or a top Indy Car team jumps ship to Champ Car, not much can save our sport now that it has been taken hostage by blind ego and delusion.

Ask not for whom the gong tolls... It tolls for thee, mi Amigos.

[FlatChatRacer]

Hello jjjanos,

The schedule with it's content and structure will tell us a lot about the direction of the series. You see, it could be quite short with only 10/11 solid races, with at least 9 in the USA/Canada, which will be a good thing in my opinion. This will show that CCWS is trying to consolidate and live within it's means and importantly reduce costs for the teams.

Conversely, if the schedule shows 14/15 races with half of them outside the USA/Canada and most of those with "To Be Confirmed", then it will be a bad sign. It will show that CCWS is still suffering delusions of grandeur and not concentrating on it's core market and roots.

At the moment the series needs to establish a firm foundation and repay the faith of it's teams with reduce costs. Whether Champ Car has 10 races or 15 races will not affect it's popularity one jot. In fact, more fly-away races with huge gaps will create a disconnect with anyone trying to follow the series.

I work in Investment Banking and therefore appreciate, value and understand the art of making money. I am also an accountant by training. Therefore, if I am in the shoes of the CCWS leaders, I reduce costs as much as possible. Fewer races, means less to pay for TV time buys and advertising/promotion.

If I was doing the schedule to create fiscal stability here is what it would look like....

1. Long Beach (USA)
2. Cleveland (USA)
3. Road America (USA)
4. Portland (USA)
5. Houston (USA)
6. Laguna Seca (USA)
7. Edmonton (Canada)
8. Toronto (Canada)
9. Mont TrentBlant (Canada)
10. Assen (Holland) - Justified by sanction fee
11. Surfers Paradise (Australia) - Justified by sanction fee

There is nothing wrong with this and when CCWS goes overseas, they are going to a destination that will pay lots of money. The core remains in it's heartland USA/Canada.

That is what I meant by saying, I can't wait to see it.

I hope that makes my thought a little clearer.

[fan-veteran]

I agree that there is no nessecity to have say 15 races in the schedule. Even 10-12 will be allright. The schedule you have proposed is good, i would add a Zolder race next to Assen :) .

[sanguin]

No it's not CART (sadly) however-add LB, RA, Cleveland, Surfers and Toronto to the IRL and lop off a couple of ovals and you have a great calendar

anyway it's probably ony a matter of time before the egos running CCWS have had enough the aggravation that they get and pull the plug on it, hopefully that day will be sooner rather than later (before I get ripped apart I was a CART loyalist in the 1996-2002 era)

Why do they need any CC events? Why would the owners let another series have their best events? The other series is just going to have to make it on their own.Waiting for another series's demise is a fatal business plan.

This is why CC survives.

[fan-veteran]

The truth is (maybe a sad truth) that it is better to have a united series with 18-20 events (and good drivers, mighty and good cars and so on and so on) and ....... Indy500 of course must be an event in the schedule ....., which means that the unification goes through ...... discontinuance of CCWS. There is of course a tiny possibility that IRL goes bad and TG eventually would like to join the CCWS, but i can't really see this possibility to be real.

[sanguin]

There is of course a tiny possibility that IRL goes bad and TG eventually would like to join the CCWS, but i can't really see this possibility to be real.

I can, with the money he's spending on subsidies and Honda could be gone to nascar.

CC isn't dependent on those things.

IMO

[fan-veteran]

Well ...., i can't see why Honda should leave IRL - they are the only supplier of engines there, and hence definitely have a very good advertising opportunities, and from the other hand - the cost of engine(s) is low (actually i can't see any development costs to that engine, it is simply manufactured). Honda to NACSAR - possible, but why should this be accompanied with withdrawal from IRL ? - the cost of NASCAR program again should not be very big.

You are maybe right that TG maybe has busy work to subsidy his own series. Maybe yes, maybe not.

[gofastandwynn]

I can, with the money he's spending on subsidies and Honda could be gone to nascar.



Um, this is the part where you would go "link please"...

[ChaimWitz]

Why do they need any CC events? Why would the owners let another series have their best events? The other series is just going to have to make it on their own.Waiting for another series's demise is a fatal business plan.

This is why CC survives.

Sanguin, for once we agree! Waiting for another series demise is a fatal business plan. Champ Car 2007 has provided ample proof of this. Paulie G-String, The Kevester, Gerry and later Dan P. have now learned this truth the hard way after stepping into the quicksand called Champ Car upon the strident urging of those who promised a doomsday scenario that has never quite materialized for TG and the IRL. Why do I claim this? Well, I was told this face-to-face by several of the opportunistic OWRS "Billionaires" themselves a few years ago. If you work for them or are actually one of them you know this already.

So, yes, Champ Car "survives", but for how long is the question?

[cartpix]

- the cost of NASCAR program again should not be very big.

Am I missing something here? If Honda goes to NASCAR, they will have to come up with a 6 litre V8, from scratch. You don't think design, tooling, & developement from nothing will not require much money? Interesting...

Jeff

[ChaimWitz]

I can, with the money he's spending on subsidies and Honda could be gone to nascar.

CC isn't dependent on those things.

IMO

Okay, how bad can the subsuidies be for the IRL? Five million? Ten Million? Fifteen Million? Twenty Million? More? I invite you to pick a number and justify it. Oh, while you are at it, also please do explain how those seventeen Champ Cars magically appear on the grid without significant purses or sponsorship. Perhaps there is another word in Billionairespeak for "subsuidies"?

Then, please also explain the terminal financial calamity that you (and the OWRS Brain Trust) think/hope will happen in the IRL if Honda leaves for NASCAR in 2010 or 2011. Oh, I forgot, "CC isn't dependent on those things". So, if losing Honda is such a disaster for the IRL, how then, is having no real manufacturer support of the Champ Car World Series viable?

No more blind faith propaganda: Please just give us some credible numbers. Oh, I forgot, Champ Car is just too dammed busy making a profit (while teaching all those wretched little handout seeking teams to fend for themselves) to answer any hard questions.

Something does not add up in Sanguin's assertions. From my persective, the IRL seems to have stable and significant reoccuring income streams while Champ Car has quite the opposite. We all my not like it but it is what it is.

I will add, that, based upon what I know, I think the chances of Honda going to NASCAR anytime soon are about as slim as Michael Schmacher driving a Champ Car in 2008.

[nigelred5]

Why do they need any CC events? Why would the owners let another series have their best events? The other series is just going to have to make it on their own.Waiting for another series's demise is a fatal business plan.

This is why CC survives.

The IRL isn't planning their business on CCWS's demise to get ANY of them just to survive, but bet your bippie if CCWS did die, Tony George will be on the phone with parties in Toronto and Long Beach before the sun comes up to get a contract for those races. I would also be shocked if They didn't contact Surfers to partner it with Motegi. It was after all the Honda Indy for quite a while was it not?

If the series ceased to operate, I'm sure their contracts with the cities would require them to put on a race or forfeit the rights to do so. I'd bet money Honda would step to the plate in Toronto and Surfers immediately and would probably love to replace Toyota in Long Beach as well. Road America might take longer due to the small market, however that place is held in just as high esteem by the current IRL teams that raced there for 20 years as it is by the current CCWS teams. Europe??? Doubtful. 4 races makes 20. Just were they should be.

Honestly, how on earth can you expect these teams to operate from the midwest, in a series looking at possibly half of their races overseas on the budgets they have? A1GP is a bloodbath with fools writing huge checks, and the teams don't even own the equipment, the series does. Write the check for your franchise, show up with your drivers to race.

[heelntoe]

I can, with the money he's spending on subsidies and Honda could be gone to nascar.

CC isn't dependent on those things.

IMO

Just one more completely ridiculous and desparate post after another...how long do we have to endure such obtuse dribble?

[nigelred5]

I will add, that, based upon what I know, I think the chances of Honda going to NASCAR anytime soon are about as slim as Michael Schmacher driving a Champ Car in 2008.

No crap? Schummi in a Champcar at the Nurgbring next year!!!! Yee Haaah. When do I book my tickets? ;) Well, I hear Ralphie might need a job next year. :rolleyes:

I agree. Honda is a much different animal than Toyota. Honda does just fine selling cars. Toyota is going NASCAR for one reason. To sell Rednecks Toyota Tundras and to convince middle America they are as American as "Apple pie and Chevrolet". They need no help what so ever selling Camrys and Corollas. Actually, at this point, they already may just be more American, but that's getting off topic.

[jjjanos]

Snip

My point was less deep and did not deserve the lengthy and well-thought out response. In short, regardless of what schedule they announce, based on their track record, it tells us nothing about where they will actually hold races.

[jjjanos]

This is why CC survives.

Wow... and here I thought it was because it, not only is a character from a George Romero film, but also because a wealthy man had some sort of harebrained scheme that throwing money down a hole and running a business in the manner of Alfred E. Nueman was a good idea.

It all makes sense to me... CCWS doesn't survive because someone is pumping cash into the series. It survives because it won't emulate a series that actually gets paid to be on TV.

[jjjanos]

Just one more completely ridiculous and desparate post after another...how long do we have to endure such obtuse dribble?

Forever. He's protected.

[BrentJackson]

What happens?

Sooner or later KK and GF make a decision they have been putting off for ages, and one that's hard.

Option 1 - Go big on the series, and spend the cash to put it back where it should be. This hurts the bottom line a lot, but makes us happy, would likely help the sponsor situation.

Option 2 - Call it a day and close. This makes all of us mad, hurts their egos, and would likely result in death threats towards KK and GF from the CW lunatics and causes a pile of lawsuits.

More likely option? Option 2, sadly.

These guys don't get it. They really don't. They need to change the course, but they won't - I think partly because they got yes men like sanguin here telling them that they can ignore the ice cold reality of CC racing.

[FORMULA-A]

Once again, Brent, I think you hit the nail on the head. Following the escapades of the AMIGOS for three years now it seems more and more clear that they don't hear or see what we see or they refuse to listen to the truth hence your conclusion rings true. Watching and listening to SJ bob and weave one gets the feeling that he keeps casting one eye over the shoulder to make sure the CHAMP CAR COllective keeps nodding it's collective head in agreement.

To hear that Heylan is getting booted for Philippe and then that David Martinez?? is replacing ORIOL while at the same time SJ is talking about "driver recognition" truly is like living with ALICE and looking at everything through the looking glass...Hey was that CIGAR IN THE BEAVERS MOUTH LIT?

[ChaimWitz]

I found the following story about the future of Portland's Champ Car race posted on another site filled with fear and loathing. It appears that a return to the city where the sport began in 1909 is now unlikely. This is not definite but money (or lack thereof) appears to be the issue. On top of this, I keep hearing that June will be when Champ Car goes to the Nurburgring and Zolder. Forget America and its foolish fans! Forget date and event equity! Forget that no other major American series has a position in the Pacific Northwest! No, it is now time to chase those sanction fees and base Champ Car's future on Bernie's future! Yippee, good old B.E. seems to be abandoning traditional F1 markets while he chases the sanction fees in emerging nations looking for First World validation. It took four years but Champ Car finally seems to have a plan. Actually, it really isn't plan but it will pass for one in a pinch.

From the "Friends of Portland International Raceway Newsletter". The author is a reporter for the local newspaper:

"Champ Car Departs Portland
In My Opinion -
By Jeff Zurschmeide

It's sad news for open wheel racing fans, but it appears that Champ Car will not return to Portland for a 25th race in 2008. With the City and the racing series several hundred thousand dollars apart in talks to bring the event back to Portland, it would take a minor miracle to
bring the event back next year.

This is a setback for big-time pro racing in Portland - there's no denying that, but it's also true that the impact on PIR itself will be minimal. With the new pavement being laid this fall, the track will be more popular than ever with the local organizations and regional events that come to Portland. Events such as the Rose Cup Races, Portland Historic Races, and the Columbia River Classic will get a boost from fresh pavement and some redesigned corners.

As we look back, Champ Car has been instrumental in making PIR what it is today. The money that flowed into our facility during the glory years of CART racing helped build much of the infrastructure we use year 'round, and established PIR as a first class permanent racing facility. We get to keep all that investment - and that is a crucial point in our favor.

There are numerous professional racing organizations in the world, and all of them are looking for good venues. With its excellent infrastructure and capability of seating tens of thousands of fans, PIR remains an attractive venue and it won't be long before the next big events are announced for our favorite city park."

[ChaimWitz]

I hear rumbles that Portland may rise from the near dead and be back on the schedule. It seems that other factors beyond Champ Car wanting to race in Portland may be in play. Time will tell...

[DrJackMiller]

I just wanted you all to know that life is good here in cyberlimbo. I have checked in regularly to see how this thread is going. Wow! A little over a month has passed since I started this discussion and I now see nearly 500 posts and over 13,500 views. You know, this thread may be the only "500" ole Dr. Jack ever wins but it seems that "what happens next?" is a popular subject and it has been worth the effort.

After all that has been posted here, what do you all think really happens next? Some shoes have dropped and more are dropping in the two weeks ahead. Give us your thoughts please.

And please no more of this back-and-forth e-knife fighting between "fans". This is exactly what bugs me about open wheel racing today. Maybe Sanguin, ChiamWitz, OWFan19 and AreonHale can all get together for a cyber celebrity death match. That might actually sell more tickets than a race in Portland or Homestead.

C'mon people... we should all be on the same side! This stupidity has gone on far too long and we all know it. Support intelligent life. Chose reason not rancor.

Gotta go! Racin' Gardner needs a root canal and Bronco Brad Murphy has a loose filling. - DrJack

[beachbum]

To get back to the original topic, IMHO "what happens next" is an unanswerable question. Most fans know what they would like to see happen next, and many have some good ideas about what could happen next, but what the amigos do next is unknown. Some will quote the pablum from the last press conference, but there were no hard facts.

I did a little research on the parallels with the last days of Trans-Am. Oddly enough, the 2005 schedule wasn't announced until December 2004 with another familiar statement "Eight venues have been confirmed, with two events still being negotiated." In September 2005, Steve Johnson was new on the job and said the following about CCWS and Trans-Am "Our organization and series is on solid ground with a focused business plan, focused ownership group, and a focused executive team leading the charge." Sound familiar? His quote on Trans-Am was that CCWS expects "to continuing owning the series and are already meeting with potential sponsors." By early December, a news report on Motosport.com made an ominous statement "The lack of news outside of the normal end of season reports has been noticeable, especially during the past month."

In December, Trans-Am was already dead with one paragraph statements from CCWS and SCCA. Steve Johnson only had this to say "We have elected not to renew the licensing agreement with the Trans-Am Series".

While the history of Trans-Am has no direct connection to the current CCWS situation other then the ownership of the series, there are a lot of parallels. One could easily see the same scenarios playing out. This is one reason fans like myself are not optimistic. I liked CART better that the "offshoot" and thought the amigos had an opportunity to make something big with CCWS. But the management (or lack of management) lately isn't awe inspiring. It seems more like business as usual just before Tran-Am folded.

There is almost no hard news about 2008, while there is lots of speculation. Without much news, discussions like this nearly 500 post thread run amok with wild assertions, heated passions, but little information. Will CCWS make the bell for 2008? IMHO it is hard to tell. No schedule, no firm series announcements, not statements from the teams other than some vague "plans for 2008". This media vacuum would not inspire confidence in a company looking to a place to promote their product in 2008. What does appear likely is that the current path will almost inevitably end like Trans-Am, with a whimper. Whether it is this year or in the future is hard to tell. But it is time for the amigos to make up their minds and make some hard decisions. Right now, they don't have much credibility.

For those who want "links" to the quotes, go to the archived articles at Motorsport.com. They are all there.

[sanguin]

CC is still racing their series for this season. There have been plenty of announcements for events. The schedule will be announced and some events already have dates for 2008.

CC is not trans-am. Althought trans -am has been talked about for a revival.

IMO.

BTW, is the ALMS schedule out?

[FlatChatRacer]

Stay on topic. The ALMS is doing fine and is not run like Champ Car.

Unfortunately, there is only one American road racing series that is cancelling races on a regular basis, year after year. Only one series is announcing events that never happen and it's not the ALMS.

[beachbum]

CC is still racing their series for this season. There have been plenty of announcements for events. The schedule will be announced and some events already have dates for 2008.

CC is not trans-am. Althought trans -am has been talked about for a revival.

IMO.

BTW, is the ALMS schedule out?
Perhaps a refresher on reading skills would be in order. To quote from my own post

While the history of Trans-Am has no direct connection to the current CCWS situation other then the ownership of the series, there are a lot of parallels No CCWS isn't Trans-Am, and I didn't claim it was. But it does have the same management. The Tran-Am "revival" was for 2 races at Topeka, which I think never happened. The rest of your post is pure nonsense and as FlatChatRacer puts it, this isn't about ALMS. They do their own thing and they do it very well.

[ChaimWitz]

CC is still racing their series for this season. There have been plenty of announcements for events. The schedule will be announced and some events already have dates for 2008.

CC is not trans-am. Althought trans -am has been talked about for a revival.

IMO.

BTW, is the ALMS schedule out?

Saguin, most fans know that the ALMS traditionally announces their schedule on the Friday of Petit Le Mans. That would be this Friday mate! But hats off to you for another great try at deflecting the conversation and confusing the issue.

I hope The Kevster doesn't mind you using his Spintron Torpeoes, Farce Shields and Uniphaser. He will need them during the Civil trial he is now facing.

As for Champ Car's announcements, I think many of us here read between the lines and see something other than stablity and calm. Yes, Long Beach and a some other races do probably have dates, but the question I have is why is there all of this mystery about where Champ Car will be racing in 2008?

Then there is the Trans-Am revival. Ummmm, based upon what we have seen from the Amigos so far, perhaps that one is a bridge too far, doncahthink?

[pits4me]

research on the parallels with the last days of Trans-Am.

Your research probably didn't include NASCAR's part in all of this. The same way they killed off North American Touring Car Championship after 1997. Its hard to succeed when someone else in leveraging the sponsorships and undermining factory support.

Just ask 5-time champion Paul Gentilozzi, 2000 champ Brian Simo and Joe Huffaker before you try to blame Johnson or anyone else. You are way off base.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sanguin thinks Trans AM is coming back? Man....that is a stretch. That dog is buried my friend....

As for ALMS, I will know when the sched comes out this weekend at Petit, it will be engraved in stone, unlike next years CCWS one.

What happens next? I suspect we are watching the last year of CCWS. I didn't want it to happen, didn't believe it coulc happen, but I think KK has pulled the chute and the boys are trying to cut their losses at this point. I think they never knew what a big job it was going to be. The new car was to be the solution to most of their issues in their eyes, and they were pissed when people found fault with that and other things. Hence the temper tantrum against Miller. Hence the lack of PR honesty or access to KK and the top Amigo's on the affairs of state. First two years of this process, we couldn't turn the tv on without seeing KK. This year, he has all but joined the witness protection program.

No....if it isn't the last year of Champ Car, it will be the last good year of Champ Car unless there is a cash injection and some heads rolling in the marketing and management arm of Champ Car. Nothing less will sell me that they have killed this series.

Oh yes...Trans AM was a great series, and it died under the watch of Paul Gentilozzi, and the management of Steve Johnson. Both of which keep popping up in the headlines of CCWS right now. This does NOT infuse me or anyone with a brain with confidence in the sh ip sailing into calm seas.....

[BrentJackson]

No....if it isn't the last year of Champ Car, it will be the last good year of Champ Car unless there is a cash injection and some heads rolling in the marketing and management arm of Champ Car. Nothing less will sell me that they have killed this series.

Few heads rolling? It's time to sack the entire head office except for the secretaries, and permanently ban Johnson and Gentilozzi from ever even attending a CC event for bringing it into disrepute. And yes, it needs a major cash injection alright. I think in order to make a decent run by the end of 2008, they are looking at $150M+ to do it.

[sanguin]

Your research probably didn't include NASCAR's part in all of this. The same way they killed off North American Touring Car Championship after 1997. Its hard to succeed when someone else in leveraging the sponsorships and undermining factory support.

Just ask 5-time champion Paul Gentilozzi, 2000 champ Brian Simo and Joe Huffaker before you try to blame Johnson or anyone else. You are way off base.

well put, trans-am is totally different in that it was run on manufacturer support, CC is not.

[sanguin]

And yes, it needs a major cash injection alright. I think in order to make a decent run by the end of 2008, they are looking at $150M+ to do it.

Since another series is doing that next year, I think CC just needs to sit back and watch how that plan works out. Cash outlay like that is not sustainable in long run and we will be able to wait and watch if anything improves with this cash incentive. I don't think it will.

[heelntoe]

Since another series is doing that next year, I think CC just needs to sit back and watch how that plan works out. Cash outlay like that is not sustainable in long run and we will be able to wait and watch if anything improves with this cash incentive. I don't think it will.

Sorry, but without committing serious money and REAL SOON, Champ Car is over.IMO

[sanguin]

Sorry, but without committing serious money and REAL SOON, Champ Car is over.IMO

In your opinion.

CC can wait to see how the cash outlay works for the other series.That will be very telling. I don't think CC has anything to worry about. IMO

[heelntoe]

In your opinion.

CC can wait to see how the cash outlay works for the other series.That will be very telling. I don't think CC has anything to worry about. IMO

CC Cannot wait another year...it can't wait another 60 days without proving to its teams, sponsors and venues that it has the money to do so.

[sanguin]

CC Cannot wait another year...it can't wait another 60 days without proving to its teams, sponsors and venues that it has the money to do so.

60 days now? hmm, guess we'll just wait and see how right you are. ;)

See you 2008!

:)

[gofastandwynn]

Cash outlay like that is not sustainable in long run

Oh yea, I keep on hearing how the NFL and F1 are going to go under any minute now...

[BrentJackson]

Since another series is doing that next year, I think CC just needs to sit back and watch how that plan works out. Cash outlay like that is not sustainable in long run and we will be able to wait and watch if anything improves with this cash incentive. I don't think it will.

They sit back right now and they are DONE, sanguin. They don't need to sit back. They need to match TG, dollar for dollar. That will hurt like heck for sure in the short term, but they won't have a long term otherwise.

It's been time to get go big for four years. Get going, guys.