WRC future

[skarderud]

If Citröen quit, and the 2017 cars are to expensive for privateers, what is the next formula?

An R5+ hybrid?

Maybe thats the resonable economic and sporting formula.

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[Mirek]

Hybrid is never an economic formula. That's the most complex and complicated option You can choose.

[skarderud]

I think hybrid is part of the next formula, but how economic it is is a different thing.

Maybe put R5 as toppclass, or an R5+, i'll bet Tänak will be spectacular in an R5 too.

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[T16]

I think hybrid is part of the next formula, but how economic it is is a different thing.

Maybe put R5 as toppclass, or an R5+, i'll bet Tänak will be spectacular in an R5 too.

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Could they make a special hybrid unit that is used by everyone to keep costs as low as possible?
I think the main thing is to attract as many manufacturers as possible and if they want hybrid as part of the formula, then it’s a must.

[Mirek]

Hybrid is a politically and socially motivated option, not economically in terms of championship cost.

However the thing is that the manufacturers are willing to pay more for this politically motivated option, which tells You that the money is there. I don't think that in terms of the championship expenses we can talk simply in money figures. The motivations in the marketing activities are not purely financial and so are not the benefits.

[Rally Power]

Could they make a special hybrid unit that is used by everyone to keep costs as low as possible?


Apparently, that’s the plan for 2022 WRC cars.

[Rally Power]

Apparently the preferred supplier for the generic hybrid system is quoting £500k per car, hardly a cost reducer is it? Needless to say its a bit of a sticking point contract wise!

Ouch…did you get those zeros right?

[T16]

Yes. Comes from a well connected source.

Heck! so they are basically going to double the cost of the cars?
I'm staggered that they are even considering it, if that info is accurate.

[Rally Power]

Yes. Comes from a well connected source.

That’s insane…it would almost double current cars price. What about Matton’s plan to get low budget hybrids? TOCA/Cosworth mild system costs only 20k per season: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport/cosworth-will-provide-hybrid-technology-btcc-2022

[Mirek]

Figures, figures, still figures flying in the air. What they tell to you? Of course you can imagine that it's one hell of a money for anyone of us but we are not the manufacturers.

The manufacturers are involved in the process of rules creation. They know what they want and how much they are willing to invest. The hybrid WRC will be more expensive. That's no-brainer. However from the very simple fact that the manufacturers are pushing for that you can easily deduce that the money is not the problem if it's spent on something they are actually interested in.

I say let it happen. If they want it they can have it. Nobody else except the manufacturers is going to use these cars anyway so it will not affect the other classes and it will keep the sport running.

[T16]

That’s insane…it would almost double current cars price. What about Matton’s plan to get low budget hybrids? TOCA/Cosworth mild system costs only 20k per season: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport/cosworth-will-provide-hybrid-technology-btcc-2022

Which manufacturers are you on about? The only two that are left?
Or are there a bucket load of others waiting and rubbing their hands together that have given some kind of commitment at that cost?

[Mirek]

That was probably an answer to me, not to Rally Power, right?

The work of FIA is to attract the competitors, i.e. on this level the manufacturers. The manufacturers want to be involved in some sort of competition because it's long-established marketing activity which works if it's done well. By a simple logic you need to sell them a product they want to invest in - and a good product is never too expensive! Forget about figures and start to think about the bigger picture. A product which doesn't fit to the marketing strategy of the brand is too expensive even if it costs 1000 Euro per year.

You ask a question which is fundamentally wrong. You must not create a product and start to search the customers afterwards (here the competitors/manufacturers). You need to talk to the potential customers beforehand and create a product which attracts highest possible number of them. Otherwise you will fail again and again.

[dimviii]

In 2022, the WRC is scheduled to undergo significant regulation changes. At this time, rumors are rising that Subaru will return to WRC.

On the 10th, the final day of the Central Rally Aichi and Gifu held from November 8th to 10th, the 2003 WRC champion, Petter Solberg, will be held at the main venue, Ai Hiroshi Memorial Park (Morikoro Park). Visited. A demonstration run was conducted on a Subaru WRX STI Group N model.

】 Many rally fans must have recalled Subaru's golden age in this scene, but Subaru's brave figure may be seen again at WRC. The starting point was the WRC regulation change scheduled for 2022. Subaru's WRC return plan is rekindled in line with this new vehicle regulation.

As previously reported, FIA renewed its regulations from 2022 and announced the introduction of a hybrid system. At the same time, when the vehicle size is larger than the vehicle size stipulated in the current regulations, “scaling” to reduce the size was permitted, and the introduction of a prototype car with a tubular frame was also permitted. This is a bold renewal of regulations, and the aim is to encourage new manufacturers to participate, but this change in vehicle regulations has shown interest in participating in the WRC, including Colin McRae in 1995. In addition to producing three drivers' champions, including Richard Burns in 2001, Petter Solberg in 2003, and Subaru who achieved third consecutive title in the Manufacturers category from 1995 to 1997.

According to the person concerned, Subaru seems to start investigation for WRC return, researching the cost of participation, selection of technical partners, and marketing methods.

It seems that it is still a fumbling situation, but it seems that a concrete plan has already been drawn. “In terms of promotions, the main model will be the only hybrid lineup of XV hybrids. WRC is the best tool to promote the sporting image of the hybrid,” said the person concerned. As mentioned above, scaling can be done to reduce the body size, and participation in prototype cars, that is, pure racing cars, is allowed, so SUV-based disadvantages can be spoiled.

On the other hand, regarding the selection of technical suppliers, it seems that it will depend on the future investigation, but according to one theory, M Sports, who works as Ford's satellite team, contacted Subaru personnel. If Subaru comes back in line with the changes in regulation, Subaru must be attractive to M-Sports who can't expect Ford to return to Works. On the other hand, M Sports will be the best technical partner for Subaru as long as it can make use of all the resources cultivated at Ford.

So far, I have compiled Subaru's WRC return plan based on fragmentary information. Personally, I would like to see Oliver Solberg participating in a Subaru car with the Petter Solberg Rally Team as a partner. In any case, I would like to look forward to the day when the rumors about the return to Subaru come true.

https://jp.motorsport.com/wrc/news/wrc-subaru-return-2022-xvhybrid/4596580/

[T16]

That was probably an answer to me, not to Rally Power, right?

The work of FIA is to attract the competitors, i.e. on this level the manufacturers. The manufacturers want to be involved in some sort of competition because it's long-established marketing activity which works if it's done well. By a simple logic you need to sell them a product they want to invest in - and a good product is never too expensive! Forget about figures and start to think about the bigger picture. A product which doesn't fit to the marketing strategy of the brand is too expensive even if it costs 1000 Euro per year.

You ask a question which is fundamentally wrong. You must not create a product and start to search the customers afterwards (here the competitors/manufacturers). You need to talk to the potential customers beforehand and create a product which attracts highest possible number of them. Otherwise you will fail again and again.

Sorry (and to you too, Rallypower) yes, it was meant to you, Mirek.
I get what you're saying for the most part, but, like all market research, are they sure the product IS going to be attractive to the manufacturers? And I don't just mean the two current ones, I mean have they got any interest from others? If they have, why isn't there more noise about other teams joining? I would have thought that alongside FIA discussion about the new regulations, they would also communicate that there are interested parties.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on if any more Manu's are buying in to the new concept.

[T16]

Now this: https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147172/citroen-wont-be-part-of-wrc-hybrid-era-in-2022

[Mirek]

I am not involved so I don't know who is in talks with FIA but I know one thing for sure - much more manufacturers are potentially interested in hybrid WRC than for pure combustion ones. In the current social climate the combustion WRC cars are unfortunately dead.

[Francis44]

So Citroen strategy was:

Cry about Hybrid technology and demand it for the future to..... immediately leave the series with its introduction.

We like to think those management moguls have it all figured out and planned when they clearly dont.

[deephouse]

Kinda like VW, who is very vocal about it and when they are asked if they will return, no no way. I mean who are they to push when they are not around. Manus should sign a contract for this regs for 3 years at least, so FIA would be assure to introduce this without worrying of manus leaving before even start.

Kinda like World RX, there was like 9 of them, and when the time really come no one was really around. And I doubt it will be anything different when it really start this Project E era.

[Tarmop]

Who knows, maybe Opel motorsport isn`t considered as a part of PSA motorsport...they were quite sufficient on their own...

Just a thought.

[Mirek]

So Citroen strategy was:

Cry about Hybrid technology and demand it for the future to..... immediately leave the series with its introduction.

We like to think those management moguls have it all figured out and planned when they clearly dont.

They cried about hybrid technology and left to the hybrid series. For whatever reason they see WEC as a better investment for them but the main thing stays - they went for the hybrid.

[doubled1978]

Apparently the preferred supplier for the generic hybrid system is quoting £500k per car, hardly a cost reducer is it? Needless to say its a bit of a sticking point contract wise!

Is that to install 1 set of parts into 1 chassis? or to run a car for the season? If it was £500k for a whole season then that’s not so bad, but for 1 set of parts it seems crazy.

[RS]

When will new rules actually be finalised/published so manufacturers can start work?

I see a good chance for Skoda coming back with a hybrid WRC

- 2022 should coincide nicely with the early years of the next generation Fabia

- if it's true they signed Oliver Solberg for three years i doubt he would want to spend three years in R5 cars

- They are now launching lots of new hybrid cars under the iV brand, including the new Octavia this week

Of course it was thought they might come back before when they signed all those drivers in 2018 but that came to nothing so won't get my hopes up too much..

[scn]

Current WRC rallies are at a very high level, maybe higher than all the years since 1987 that I have been watching.
True, the previous generation without the electronic differential offered more sideways sliding, but current cars show their extra speed and they are very well supplemented by the many R5s.
Any change must be very carefully thought, as any spoiling of the image will be harmful or even dangerous, with so few manufacturers participating.
Personally I would like to see the continuation of the present form. And, surely, rally cars must sound like rally cars.

[AndyRAC]

They cried about hybrid technology and left to the hybrid series. For whatever reason they see WEC as a better investment for them but the main thing stays - they went for the hybrid.

It makes no sense at all to me. I think the WRC has far better media coverage than WEC. Even their main race in June doesn't get as much mainstream coverage as you'd think; especially when it clashes with F1.

I have seen a comment somewhere, and it sort of makes sense; PSA/ Peugeot let the ACO down when they pulled the plug on their 2012 WEC programme whilst testing at Sebring shortly before the first round; as opposed pulling out of the WRC with Citroen who still had Loeb, and he was a big marketing factor.

Now for the new Hybrid Hypercars, they want as many Manufacturers as they can get. This time the PSA group have possibly decided that the WEC will take precedence with Peugeot. Citroen & Ogier hasn't the same marketing pull as Loeb did. Who knows??

[Rally Power]

It makes no sense at all to me. I think the WRC has far better media coverage than WEC. Even their main race in June doesn't get as much mainstream coverage as you'd think; especially when it clashes with F1.


PSA always said they could return to the WEC, as long new rules allowing a huge cost cut would be presented: https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/peugeot/peugeot-to-return-to-le-mans/

The WEC is mainly about LM and LM is still a huge name, not only in Europe but also in the US and Asia, markets where PSA is interested to go or expand. Besides, as I’ve said the other day, PSA seems to be drifting from full in-house programs to partnerships with external companies, allowing them to share different knowhows and save on overall costs, something clearly not easy to find in the WRC.

No matter how sad it’s to know Citroen will leave in 2022, as a rally fan I can only thank them for being in the WRC for almost 20 years and continuing to support the sport with their costumeur programs. Salut!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

PSA always said they could return to the WEC, as long new rules allowing a huge cost cut would be presented: https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/peugeot/peugeot-to-return-to-le-mans/

The WEC is mainly about LM and LM is still a huge name, not only in Europe but also in the US and Asia, markets where PSA is interested to go or expand. Besides, as I’ve said the other day, PSA seems to be drifting from full in-house programs to partnerships with external companies, allowing them to share different knowhows and save on overall costs, something clearly not easy to find in the WRC.

No matter how sad it’s to know Citroen will leave in 2022, as a rally fan I can only thank them for being in the WRC for almost 20 years and continuing to support the sport with their costumeur programs. Salut!

Yep, no-one can knock Citroen... they have been rally stalwarts (with M-Sport) for many difficult years.

[Norm75]

It makes no sense at all to me. I think the WRC has far better media coverage than WEC. Even their main race in June doesn't get as much mainstream coverage as you'd think; especially when it clashes with F1.

I have seen a comment somewhere, and it sort of makes sense; PSA/ Peugeot let the ACO down when they pulled the plug on their 2012 WEC programme whilst testing at Sebring shortly before the first round; as opposed pulling out of the WRC with Citroen who still had Loeb, and he was a big marketing factor.


Yes but PSA is a French manufacturer and the biggest pull in WEC for them is Le Mans.
Ive said it before and been shot down in flames, but the Wrc is too niche. Le Mans 24hrs means a lot more to more people than rallying does, like it or not. Yes Tanak has his movie out, but how many movies are made about rallying? Other than documentaries? None.
How many films are made about Le Mans? A few, there is one just released in the cinemas now, and you can bet your life a hell of a lot more people from all walks of life have heard about it, and will go and watch it. The same can not be said about Tanak, the movie.

Back a decade or two, manufacturers used to produce cars, with a rallying connection and make special editions of them.
We used to get cars like the Toyota Celica GT-4 Carlos Sainz, the Mitsubishi Lancer evo Tommi Makinen, the Subaru Impreza turbo Colin McRae, the Impreza RB5, and latterly the RB320 (Richard Burns) Japanese market Impreza Toshio Aria limited edition, Petter Solberg limited edition (which was just plain WR1 in my home market) and the Citroen C2 and C4 by Loeb.
Ok we can book end these with the Ford Escort Mexico, and the fairly recent Skoda Fabia Monte Carlo, but the days of having a manufacturer produce a car for the mass market with a rally drivers monika in stickers on the back of it are numbered, because rally drivers these days just don't have the notoriety that they once had.
As successful as Ogier has been, I don't see a Citroen C3 by Ogier on the horizon, or a Hyundai i30N Tanak/Neuville/Loeb/delete as applicable edition any time soon.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/h/hyundai/i30_n_thierry_neuville_limited_edition/hyundai_i30_n_thierry_neuville_limited_edition_77. jpeg

https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/0kkrk/s1/hyundai-i30n-thierry-neuville-limited-edition.jpg

[doubled1978]

PSA always said they could return to the WEC, as long new rules allowing a huge cost cut would be presented: https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/peugeot/peugeot-to-return-to-le-mans/

The WEC is mainly about LM and LM is still a huge name, not only in Europe but also in the US and Asia, markets where PSA is interested to go or expand. Besides, as I’ve said the other day, PSA seems to be drifting from full in-house programs to partnerships with external companies, allowing them to share different knowhows and save on overall costs, something clearly not easy to find in the WRC.

No matter how sad it’s to know Citroen will leave in 2022, as a rally fan I can only thank them for being in the WRC for almost 20 years and continuing to support the sport with their costumeur programs. Salut!

Exactly this, Peugeot have wanted to be back in WEC/Le Mans for a while, but while the Hybrid arms race between Audi/Porsche/Toyota was in full swing they simply couldn’t or didn’t want to afford it. To be fair the budgets that were talked about for Audi and Porsche were insane, and basically for 1 race as the others don’t have huge reach to the public.
The budget level they are talking about now for the new Hypercar class is significantly less than we hear Toyota and Hyundai are spending on WRC, so I can see the appeal for PSA, and they get the LM24 into the mix, which as has been said is a big deal for them.

[mknight]

Le Mans is actually perfect for showcasinf speed+consumtion combination.
I stil remember 1999 when BMW won due to fuel economy even though they were only 3rd fastest car.
I also remember 2010 where the engine of all 3 Peugeots failed.

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

When will new rules actually be finalised/published so manufacturers can start work?

I see a good chance for Skoda coming back with a hybrid WRC

- 2022 should coincide nicely with the early years of the next generation Fabia

- if it's true they signed Oliver Solberg for three years i doubt he would want to spend three years in R5 cars

- They are now launching lots of new hybrid cars under the iV brand, including the new Octavia this week

Of course it was thought they might come back before when they signed all those drivers in 2018 but that came to nothing so won't get my hopes up too much..

If they come in WRC22 I hope and believe it is with Scala.

[Mirek]

I was just browsing through the football Euro 2020 qualification matches when I noticed huge banners of VW on one of the stadiums. Guess what was the slogan.

"Just electric"

That tells you a lot about the current European automotive. Just saying...

[tomhlord]

I was just browsing through the football Euro 2020 qualification matches when I noticed huge banners of VW on one of the stadiums. Guess what was the slogan.

"Just electric"

That tells you a lot about the current European automotive. Just saying...

Absolutely. Even if combustion remains the top-selling propulsion type right now, a lot of the marketing budgets will be tipped towards full-EV. One, EVs are a big investment and manufacturers need to see a return upon that soon. Two, it makes the whole brand look 'good', or kinder, if you have made an EV.

This makes it potentially harder to justify big WRC investments for some manufacturers, as hybrid is just a halfway house. For me, regulations that cater better to privateers until electric tech and infrastructure enable flat-out rallies without compromise is a must.

[Sulland]

We will just habe to discuss, and wish until

From Autosport: Firm regulations for the new era are expected from the FIA by the end of next month.

[Francis44]

Mr. Herbert Diess just this week:

"“Hybridisation, electrification and digitalisation of our fleet are becoming an increasingly important area of focus. We intend to take advantage of economies of scale and achieve maximum synergies.”

Notice how Hybridisation comes first. Obviously there is some space to promote hybrid technology in the VAG group.

[Indreq]

Today all the hype is about EVs, hybrids are yesterdays news. In this context it seems weird to go for hybrid in WRC. New rules should reflect state-of-the-art, and cars absolutely should have marketing value. Even now hybrids get much less attention than EVs, most people consider them as stop-gap solution for a time when full-electric matured. Can you imagine big manufacturers advertising hybrids in around 2025 while already now EVs are becoming new standard for modern car? Maybe today technology is just a bit raw yet, for example nobody knows how safe are batteries when cars crash, roll or endure such levels of vibration as is common in rally. So give them bit more time to develope, come in with full electrics from 2023 and continue with current ones until then.

[mknight]

VW was saying the same thing already last year, but that also has to do with VW strategy of largely skipping hybrids for full EV.

Anyway WRC/rallying has been behind in the current trend for last 20 years. First running turbo petrol cars when no normal cars had turbos, then switching to S2000 just about the time downsizing started and going for downsizing 2-3 years later than the industry.

[RS]

Skoda launched their first hybrid only this year and have already presented two more. I think they have some marketing value for the next 5-10 years at least.

F1 is still hybrid and no sign of them going full electric yet.

[Tarmop]

Hybrids yes, full EVs no. Cars are not ready, grids are definitely not ready.

[Mirek]

Yes, Europe is totally unprepared for full electrification of the traffic. Nothing is prepared for that and with the speed of decision-making processes in EU this will take decades.

[mknight]

Yeah I mean, who has electricity at home right?

Appart from cheap trolling that statement like the above invite to, it does take a lot of time to change cars on the road. Here with 5+ years of big EV sales (over 50% of new cars for the last months) they still only make some 8% of the total ammount of cars on the road.

[Indreq]

Yes, Europe is totally unprepared for full electrification of the traffic. Nothing is prepared for that and with the speed of decision-making processes in EU this will take decades.

I am not talking about what tech will majority of cars be based on in few years, i am talking about where marketing focus will be. Full electrification surely will take time. But think about how things have progressed during past few years. Some 3-5 years ago there were handful of full EVs which were more cool noveltys and less as everybodys viable option. Today most manufacturers are launching new EV models with double the range we had couple of years ago. Now fast forward another 2-5 years - by then even hybrid, not only IC engine would be yesterdays news. Sure, they will probably still be sold, most cars on roads are still non-EVs, but surely majority of PR will go towards top models, which will be EVs. And if WRC does not provide marketing opportunity to support this EV-focused marketing, then this is pointless expense for manufacturers. By then there will probably be full-EV RX series, Formula E might eclipse F1, maybe some other series will go electric - and this would be more lucrative for manufacturers then as this supports their marketing focus. We considered that current situation with 3,5 manufacturers is "good times", i would say sights are set too low. WRC should have 5 manufacturers at least. FIA shouldnt ask from current manufacturers what they want, but from companies who are not here yet but who are in forefront of EV development - Tesla, Nissan, Mitsubishi, VW, Audi etc.

PS i know i am dreaming here and historical experience doesnt support such big change but then we are living in interesting times... :)

[Francis44]

I am not talking about what tech will majority of cars be based on in few years, i am talking about where marketing focus will be. Full electrification surely will take time. But think about how things have progressed during past few years. Some 3-5 years ago there were handful of full EVs which were more cool noveltys and less as everybodys viable option. Today most manufacturers are launching new EV models with double the range we had couple of years ago. Now fast forward another 2-5 years - by then even hybrid, not only IC engine would be yesterdays news. Sure, they will probably still be sold, most cars on roads are still non-EVs, but surely majority of PR will go towards top models, which will be EVs. And if WRC does not provide marketing opportunity to support this EV-focused marketing, then this is pointless expense for manufacturers. By then there will probably be full-EV RX series, Formula E might eclipse F1, maybe some other series will go electric - and this would be more lucrative for manufacturers then as this supports their marketing focus. We considered that current situation with 3,5 manufacturers is "good times", i would say sights are set too low. WRC should have 5 manufacturers at least. FIA shouldnt ask from current manufacturers what they want, but from companies who are not here yet but who are in forefront of EV development - Tesla, Nissan, Mitsubishi, VW, Audi etc.

PS i know i am dreaming here and historical experience doesnt support such big change but then we are living in interesting times... :)

But as you say, things are moving soo fast nowadays that perhaps even EVs will be yesterday news in 10 years time :) , or perhaps they will be just another option on the market.

[Sulland]

Yes, Europe is totally unprepared for full electrification of the traffic. Nothing is prepared for that and with the speed of decision-making processes in EU this will take decades.

It depends on electricity infrastrukture along the highway/motorway network. In Norway we now see the first gasstation chain that start building large scale rapidcharger network on their filling stations. So you can fill oil products or El-Product on your car.
The Norwegian government left it tp private companies to take the risk of building the rapid charger network. I as a customer have a RFID-Piece that work on any of them, as long as I have registererd my debet or creditcard with them.

Now we have gooten to the point that drivers no longer have "range-fear" but "que-fear" since many are rapid-charging.

But to get ev salesnumbers up, governments need to kick it off with subsidies, otherwise EVs will not sell in numners being more expensive to buy that comparable a oilburner. Again it boils down to money. Even if we see and feel climate change around the globe :rolleyes:

[Mirek]

Yeah I mean, who has electricity at home right?

Ehm...

1) Hundreds of thousands of cars park in the streets and in parking lots in the cities. Your electricity at home is useful as a coat for a dead man in that case.
2) The existing and often very old power grid is not designed for the rise of power consumption if we speak about millions of new cars where thousands are concentrated in the same streets. The existing power grids in many European countries are pretty unstable already now (Germany for example).
3) Don't know how it is in other countries but if You have normal electrical plug 230V you can't go over 16A which means that You need something like 24 hours to charge Tesla. If you have 400V/16A 3-phase plug (I guess that nobody has that in city blocks of flats) you are still fucked with some cars which don't support 3-phase charger (BMW i3 for example), i.e. you are still limited to 16A and pretty much fucked with any at least moderately fast charging. If you have 400V/32A plug you are lucky but who has that at home?
4) I am not an electrician but our power grid here in CZ is working that way that the more or less constant power from the nuclear power plants, which is redundant in the night, is used to pump water into the massive hydro station which then during the day helps to overcome the peaks and further stabilize the grid. What if suddenly several million people start to plug their cars at night? Will it still work? I have doubts about that.
5) There is no charging network present on the highways. By simple math you need many times more charging capacity on the motorways than of the fuel stations due to the time needed for charging. Nothing like that exists.

[Indreq]

Ehm...

1) Hundreds of thousands of cars park in the streets and in parking lots in the cities. Your electricity at home is useful as a coat for a dead man in that case.
2) The existing and often very old power grid is not designed for the rise of power consumption if we speak about millions of new cars where thousands are concentrated in the same streets. The existing power grids in many European countries are pretty unstable already now (Germany for example).
3) Don't know how it is in other countries but if You have normal electrical plug 230V you can't go over 16A which means that You need something like 24 hours to charge Tesla. If you have 400V/16A 3-phase plug (I guess that nobody has that in city blocks of flats) you are still fucked with some cars which don't support 3-phase charger (BMW i3 for example), i.e. you are still limited to 16A and pretty much fucked with any at least moderately fast charging. If you have 400V/32A plug you are lucky but who has that at home?
4) I am not an electrician but our power grid here in CZ is working that way that the more or less constant power from the nuclear power plants, which is redundant in the night, is used to pump water into the massive hydro station which then during the day helps to overcome the peaks and further stabilize the grid. What if suddenly several million people start to plug their cars at night? Will it still work? I have doubts about that.
5) There is no charging network present on the highways. By simple math you need many times more charging capacity on the motorways than of the fuel stations due to the time needed for charging. Nothing like that exists.

These are challenges but not unsolvable.
1. This depends on location. In Estonia no new multi-appartment buildings get building permits without building also certain number of parking places. As there is usually street lighting nearby, bringing power outlets to parking places is minor additional investment.
2. Again, depends on location and situation. On one hand, increase of usage of more energy efficient light bulbs and appliances, renovation of houses to be more efficient etc helps to keep increase of power demand under control. Also, power lines are upgraded and renovated over time, they dont stay same.
3. Thats true but this can be partly solved by using short-term storage based on capacitor/battery combination, which slowly charges itself when not in used and rapidly discharges when in use.
4. In near future big part of this kind of balancing will be done by demand-response VPP's - virtual power plants. These pilots are successfully running in several countries and more resourses are plugged into these every day. To certain extent even plugged-in EVs can participate in such systems.
5. Trust the market. When there is demand, supply will follow shortly. At least in Estonia in addition to already existing state-owned network several private owned charging projects are already in operation or in construction. Also in several countries "charger-uber"-like solutions are live - everybody can own charger and connect them into bigger network, so small investors can enter into this market.

[Mirek]

I don't know if you understand the scale of the changes which is needed. It's nice that new projects rose but this is completely out of reach for any private project. Today with the new projects we are talking about numbers which are not even a tenth of a single percent of all running cars. You can't argument that with new building projects etc. it will be different when millions of flats and houses are here and they are here to stay. The cars are to stay in the streets for decades as well. Maybe if EU was China the party would tell and things would move but in EU it will take ages because nobody will agree on anything so we will keep discussing for about forever.

[Francis44]

A lot needs to be done for EVs to be as clean as some preach, just one example:

https://twitter.com/harrym_vids/status/1196436961294245888?s=19

Ofcourse this depends on location and time, obviously.

[Katvala]

What is really good with EVs, is that they will help increase air quality in cities. The pollution is outsourced instead (factories, energy production)

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[Tarmop]

Burning cars and houses pollute on the otherhand more...and they tend to do that. It's a closed dead circle, then you eat more pollution for example. Besides, a car in good nick doesn't pollute much at all. But battery technology and powerproduction do it terribly...

It`s just like 50s-60s cigarettes, doctors approved that smoking is good for you, in commercials.:D

[cali]

These are challenges but not unsolvable.
1. This depends on location. In Estonia no new multi-appartment buildings get building permits without building also certain number of parking places. As there is usually street lighting nearby, bringing power outlets to parking places is minor additional investment.
2. Again, depends on location and situation. On one hand, increase of usage of more energy efficient light bulbs and appliances, renovation of houses to be more efficient etc helps to keep increase of power demand under control. Also, power lines are upgraded and renovated over time, they dont stay same.
3. Thats true but this can be partly solved by using short-term storage based on capacitor/battery combination, which slowly charges itself when not in used and rapidly discharges when in use.
4. In near future big part of this kind of balancing will be done by demand-response VPP's - virtual power plants. These pilots are successfully running in several countries and more resourses are plugged into these every day. To certain extent even plugged-in EVs can participate in such systems.
5. Trust the market. When there is demand, supply will follow shortly. At least in Estonia in addition to already existing state-owned network several private owned charging projects are already in operation or in construction. Also in several countries "charger-uber"-like solutions are live - everybody can own charger and connect them into bigger network, so small investors can enter into this market.You don't have a clue about it don't you?

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[mknight]

@Mirek

When you write simple arguments like "totally unprepared" you get simple answers. I have written long posts explaining how none of these issues is a game stopper before so I don't see the need to repeat them in a bit off-topic thread.

What I find extremely funny is when you are arguing with them from the position of a country with close to no EVs when I sit in a country with the highest number of EVs per capita in the world and explosive EV growth the last years. Just perhaps there is a chance that here it's actually possible to see how big the issues are or not?

No you don't need centrally planned economy to solve them. When the number of EVs starts to increase "the market" however abstract it may sound solves them. Ex. when you have many EVs on the road and many people need charging, charging stations start to be build commercially or become a "necessity" that customers ask for at hotels, parking places of enterprises and petrol stations! Sure in the end somebody has to pay, that does not make them unsolvable. And yes for 60-30% of people (depending on country) that have own parking place with electricity there is really nothing else they need for just about all daily driving.

The only major thing that really limits EVs is price.

As to the speed of the change, in 2018 there were some 15 mil cars sold in Europe, the total number of registered was some 290 mil. So even if all new sold cars were EVs (which won't happen for quite a few years if ever), it would by simple calculation take some 10 years to get to 50% and that's not realistic at all. With a slower rate of change there is also a long time to solve issues as they come.

[Tarmop]

So Norway, i assume? According to Wiki, 56 EVs per 1000 people and 10.7% of all passenger cars. That is still quite a big number less, than 100% EV.

[mknight]

I wrote that in post #43. With 50% of all new cars sold being electric for last 3 months the total amount is still only 10% .. and the infrastructure issues mentioned are developing and getting mitigated at the same rate.

A change to high % of total cars is literally impossible as written at the end of the post right above you.

[Tarmop]

Well ok, an exception to a rule then.
For sure the big players in the industry are not gone let it go so lightly ( big oil and gas producers, Russia and Arab countries in general). Then there are cultures, were mpg is not an issue at all, the more, the merrier. They carry quite voice...and a wallet.
Then we have the grid, in some cases could have parts of it old many decades already...even if at the other end sits a 2019 0-consumption smarthome, and then there are people living in old houses, with who knows how old grid. 100% EV neighbourhood would need more power than some industrial region.
An then there`s money. A normal EV with range and a capacity of a Golf or family estate costs...a lot. To go somwhere, you have to charge it, probably causing you inconviniences every day (not to all ofc), but who rely on cars...

...and most definitely there is a crisis on its way ooner or later, meaning...importer places to use that money for.

[Mirek]

@Mirek

When you write simple arguments like "totally unprepared" you get simple answers. I have written long posts explaining how none of these issues is a game stopper before so I don't see the need to repeat them in a bit off-topic thread.

What I find extremely funny is when you are arguing with them from the position of a country with close to no EVs when I sit in a country with the highest number of EVs per capita in the world and explosive EV growth the last years. Just perhaps there is a chance that here it's actually possible to see how big the issues are or not?

No you don't need centrally planned economy to solve them. When the number of EVs starts to increase "the market" however abstract it may sound solves them. Ex. when you have many EVs on the road and many people need charging, charging stations start to be build commercially or become a "necessity" that customers ask for at hotels, parking places of enterprises and petrol stations! Sure in the end somebody has to pay, that does not make them unsolvable. And yes for 60-30% of people (depending on country) that have own parking place with electricity there is really nothing else they need for just about all daily driving.

The only major thing that really limits EVs is price.

As to the speed of the change, in 2018 there were some 15 mil cars sold in Europe, the total number of registered was some 290 mil. So even if all new sold cars were EVs (which won't happen for quite a few years if ever), it would by simple calculation take some 10 years to get to 50% and that's not realistic at all. With a slower rate of change there is also a long time to solve issues as they come.

Well, I know it's moving faster in Norway but Norway is not part of the EU, i.e. when we talked about decision making and very slow processes in EU Norway simply isn't relevant. Norway is also one of the richest countries in the world and all about EVs is massively supported by the state - and not only financially but what is of same if not even higher importance - in legislation and pushing things forward. It's is very different to do that in a rich country with few million people and to do the same with the bureaucratic elephant called EU where everyone has its own targets, many have only debts instead of money, many agree or disagree with others just out of principle and on top of that sits an armada of bureaucrats living in a bulb disconnected from the outer world. Add to that much more complicated power grid due to many different systems interconnected with others. Much higher population density than in Norway and much bigger cities also make it a completely different challenge. With all respect you don't have any true big city.

[Indreq]

You don't have a clue about it don't you?

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Anything particular you dont agree with? This type of labeling is not fostering discussion.

[Sulland]

Norway rapidcharge map.
https://elbil.no/lading/ladestasjoner/ so many to choose from.

It has grown a lot the last couple of years.
But of course, little of this would have happened if the government took away much of the importtax on EVs, and no roadtax, no tollroad payment and so on.
I save aprox 6000€ each year in petrolcost driving 120km to work each day in my eUp!

I have bought a homecharger, and buildt for the future with 400v/32a/22Kw.
None of my cars can eat that kind of power, but development moves fast now that the bigshots in the carindustry have started to push money into the EV R&D.

But Norway aside, WRC will not go EV in a few years, WRX will go first.
Hybrid on the other hand will come, in some shape or form.

[Indreq]

Guys, dont get stuck into technical or geographical details. Its not important if in this or that country 10% or 20% of cars will be EVs in 5 years and wether or not there are unsolvable problems in some country. My point was that globally ( not just in EU) MARKETING will be even more focused on EVs in just few years and this is what influences carmakers decisions. Right now also only relatively small % of cars are hybrids or EVs but still proportionally big part of ads is about these. Marketing is about top of the line models because they define image of brand.

[Tarmop]

But for how long...warming old houses with cheap EPS was also propagated and supported. Now its quite the opposite....

[stefanvv]

It`s just like 50s-60s cigarettes, doctors approved that smoking is good for you, in commercials.:D

You just have to remember the poison is in the doze amount. That saying a single diesel car in the city center is negligible than a powerplant in the city center.

[denkimi]

The main problem with EV's is that nobody buys them unless, like in norway, the government seriously fucks the market up with taxes and subsidies.

Manufacturers only build EV's and hybrids for PR reasons, and to comply with things like the stupid EU regulations. There is not much profit to be made with them since, as i said, nobody want them.

Even with huge subsidies in many countries, for every new electric car that is sold, 35 ordinary cars are being sold. So it's not going to take a long time before ev's have a significant global market share, it's just not going to happen. At least not before all the oil and gas in the world is consumed.

[Indreq]

The main problem with EV's is that nobody buys them unless, like in norway, the government seriously fucks the market up with taxes and subsidies.

Manufacturers only build EV's and hybrids for PR reasons, and to comply with things like the stupid EU regulations. There is not much profit to be made with them since, as i said, nobody want them.

Even with huge subsidies in many countries, for every new electric car that is sold, 35 ordinary cars are being sold. So it's not going to take a long time before ev's have a significant global market share, it's just not going to happen. At least not before all the oil and gas in the world is consumed.

There is grain of thruth there. BUT - governments are fucking up different goods markets all the time, companies adapt and use this. Many things that we today consider normal public services could be outsourced as paid servises from public sector (use of roads for example - there is no reason why all roads couldnt be privat toll-roads, but we are used to have governments fucking up that market). So, governements are pushing out ICs by supporting EVs. And manufacturers use this. Which means - their marketing strategies follow this. BTW, this is not just EU thing. Globally biggest EV market is China, they yearly sales of "new energy vehicles" (EVs biggest subgroup there) exceeded 1 million units mark last year. In US EV sales dramatically increased last year and are estimated to be close to 0,5 M this year. India is somewhat lagging behind, but has just announces their goal to reach 30% level in 10 years through also fucking up market.
So - even though currently maybe small percentage of cars are electric, companies are adapting to market opportunities and currently it seems that opportunities lie in the direction where EVs share will continuously and rapidly increase. And thus this is where their long-term strategy is pointing, including marketing strategy :)

[Tarmop]

You just have to remember the poison is in the doze amount. That saying a single diesel car in the city center is negligible than a powerplant in the city center.

I am not talking about agricultural equipment. :D

[denkimi]

There is grain of thruth there. BUT - governments are fucking up different goods markets all the time, companies adapt and use this. Many things that we today consider normal public services could be outsourced as paid servises from public sector (use of roads for example - there is no reason why all roads couldnt be privat toll-roads, but we are used to have governments fucking up that market). So, governements are pushing out ICs by supporting EVs. And manufacturers use this. Which means - their marketing strategies follow this. BTW, this is not just EU thing. Globally biggest EV market is China, they yearly sales of "new energy vehicles" (EVs biggest subgroup there) exceeded 1 million units mark last year. In US EV sales dramatically increased last year and are estimated to be close to 0,5 M this year. India is somewhat lagging behind, but has just announces their goal to reach 30% level in 10 years through also fucking up market.
So - even though currently maybe small percentage of cars are electric, companies are adapting to market opportunities and currently it seems that opportunities lie in the direction where EVs share will continuously and rapidly increase. And thus this is where their long-term strategy is pointing, including marketing strategy :)
https://amp.businessinsider.com/global-electric-car-sales-fall-the-first-time-in-history-2019-9
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/12/business/china-electric-car-sales-subsidies/index.html

China has slashed its subsidies and the market has plummeted.
It everywhere the same. As long as the price difference is payed with someone elses tax money people buy electric cars. As soon as the real prices have to be payed they don't want them anymore.

And roads are not private because they are on government ground.
If you want to make a comparison, that would be like paying people to use a small slow roads, and taxing them if they use the faster highway.

[Indreq]

https://amp.businessinsider.com/global-electric-car-sales-fall-the-first-time-in-history-2019-9
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/12/business/china-electric-car-sales-subsidies/index.html

China has slashed its subsidies and the market has plummeted.
It everywhere the same. As long as the price difference is payed with someone elses tax money people buy electric cars. As soon as the real prices have to be payed they don't want them anymore.

And roads are not private because they are on government ground.
If you want to make a comparison, that would be like paying people to use a small slow roads, and taxing them if they use the faster highway.

Thanks, good articles, i havent read them yet. And these both confirm that in longer term EVs are still future, what is going in China is seen as short term "improving of stock" process.
And yes, i agree that subsidies are big part of buying incentive, i have nevere denied it, what i am saying is that this is part of the market forces and car makers take advantage of that. I myself seriously consider some EV as family 2nd car, for urban use. I have test-driven several of them and they are really good. As new models are flooding in, i believe that in couple if years price difference is not more than 10-20% and this is what i can accept.

About roads - this was just an example of governement possible intervention into free market. My point was that there is nothing new or surprising that governments interfere here or there to shape economy or peoples behaviour. Many taxes are designed to support or prevent this or that. One way to go is subsidies on EVs but same effect would be heavy taxes on ICVs. While today EVs are little part of whole fleet, subsidies are better tool because through that state can equalize prices of few against many. If they would slam ICVs with tax in same proportion that would equalize prices of ICs and EVs, that would seriously fuck up all economy as today most of transportation still relies on ICVs. As EV technology developes subsidies will decrease and then at one moment, when EV and ICV shares are equal or EVs have majority, then probably ICVs will be taxed to weed them out.

We have seen same things in power generation - wind power boom started some 30 years ago and up until now it relied only on heavy subsidies. Only now is technology mature enough that subsidies are really small or missing at all in case of new installations. If governments hadnt fucked up this market with subsidies for 30 years, this wouldnt have happened and we would still all be burning coal for power. And yes i know that today renewable energy is only part of total energy output and we have huge balancing issues but market and technologies have evolved and matured over decades and will continue doing so. In another 20-30 years hopefully coal-burning power stations are rare exceptions.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Can we bring this back to WRC's future or at least motorsport EV's ?

Extreme-E is starting testing in 2020 and will run events in 2021. Could this steal some of WRC's publicity in this area...

[AnttiL]

Can we bring this back to WRC's future or at least motorsport EV's ?


It always turns the same way. Instead of discussing how we could develop motorsport in a way that would support the car manufacturers' current and future interests, we as motorsport fans start telling what kind of cars manufacturers should build.

[Indreq]

Can we bring this back to WRC's future or at least motorsport EV's ?

Extreme-E is starting testing in 2020 and will run events in 2021. Could this steal some of WRC's publicity in this area...

I have been arguing that carmakers make their decisions in big part how this or that series (and used technology) supports their strategic interests. If they want to push EVs, then they will not bother with WRC series which runs hybrids - it has no marketing value for them. If RX goes electric, then this is much better for them - they can utilise "race on sunday, sell on monday" principle. Some other guys evidently dont believe that carmakers will put such heavy focus on EVs, because there are some real-life challenges in mass usage of EVs. Thats why we somewhat deviated from topic.

[stefanvv]

I am not talking about agricultural equipment. :D

When you have nothing to say.......

[AnttiL]

https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-11077330

Very interesting interview with Timo Rautiainen about the future of WRC. Cannot translate everything but here's some key points

- they consider setting up a series for private WRC teams, who wouldn't have to do all the rounds
- the 2022 rules are likely not to be ready by the end of this month. Teams have agreed with the big guidelines though.
- electric power will be used on city liaison sections, not on special stages
- hybrid power line offers from manufacturers have come in, but they are not comparable with each other, so they need to be adjusted
- if too many WRC teams drop, WRC2 will be made the main series. Rautiainen does not see this likely to happen.
- Rautiainen agrees that costs should be brought down, and no more rallies should be added to calendar
- Many car makers have shown interest in joining the series.

[EstWRC]

https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-11077330

Very interesting interview with Timo Rautiainen about the future of WRC. Cannot translate everything but here's some key points

- they consider setting up a series for private WRC teams, who wouldn't have to do all the rounds
- the 2022 rules are likely not to be ready by the end of this month. Teams have agreed with the big guidelines though.
- electric power will be used on city liaison sections, not on special stages
- hybrid power line offers from manufacturers have come in, but they are not comparable with each other, so they need to be adjusted
- if too many WRC teams drop, WRC2 will be made the main series. Rautiainen does not see this likely to happen.
- Rautiainen agrees that costs should be brought down, and no more rallies should be added to calendar
- Many car makers have shown interest in joining the series.

this is what i wanted to hear , good !

[AnttiL]

One more thing: the candidate events run in Japan have sparked interest in other car makers than Toyota.

[T16]

One more thing: the candidate events run in Japan have sparked interest in other car makers than Toyota.

Which ones?

[rp]

Which ones?

At least Subaru...

[AnttiL]

Which ones?

Obviously, things like this are kept as a secret from FIA's side.

[deephouse]

I hope some of them or at least one would be serious about that. Like in other series 9 of them were deadly serious and next day none of them were. I don't believe anything for real until the day come when they will be actually at the start of the line.

[AnttiL]

https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-11077680

Another article from the same author, talking about how Citroen's departure should be viewed as a wake-up-call to abandon the current WRC cars and go for simpler and cheaper rally cars which look more like production models.

[AndyRAC]

I agree it's a 'wake up' call - I sometimes think people in the WRC are oblivious to whats going on in the wider motorsport/ outside world. Everything is fine when it actually isn't.

However, they absolutely have to get the next car regs right; whether that is hybrid, electric, Fred Flintstone pedal power, etc who knows.
What can the WRC offer Manufacturers that other series can't? It's not an easy decision.....

[Rally Power]

Costs escalate should be restrained without changing current cars specs as the series needs their ‘wow factor’. Further restrictions to testing days and jokers use and a calendar revision limiting far away events could be easily implemented. Besides, hearing that the FIA will let manus to get their own hybrid systems is quite worrying; a common low budget system, as initially announced, was a much more sensible option.

Btw, if another Japanese manu enters the series maybe the Koreans will also throw Kia into the battle, to make it more leveled…anyway, even if it sounds almost impossible, I’m still hoping the WRC will get a European manu in 2022. Fingers crossed!

[Sulland]

YLE Sport piece in english.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fyle.fi%2Furheilu%2F3-11077680

another one with interessting viewpoints
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fyle.fi%2Furheilu%2F3-11077330

FIA discusses plans to save WRC

[cali]

Kia and Hyundai are same as Peugoet and Citroën. Not likely gonna happen

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[Rally Power]

Kia and Hyundai are same as Peugoet and Citroën. Not likely gonna happen


Yep, and Toyota keeps increasing their stake in Subaru https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-raise-stake-subaru-over-012529567.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAg97v4b7AVNReR19ie1N6tyos8O 6535o6b8qLlVWS43tKt8vy9wJotONL4pAdNgsgj0MdEQIK7mmy resAwHf_j8rsiilNBQetGkXlX5rEaoRHEUNh0ndQrBnV0VGPUs UJer6KO-ij4xPLecfdEiLVnKHXDh31W64ypUJFjFodpC; btw, with the WRC becoming a sort of battlefield between Japanese and South Korean manus, who knows what will come next…

[deephouse]

I see only Subaru, Mitsubishi and Suzuki and none other at that market. Maybe Proton but I don't think they have money, except if Geely (Chinese) will throw some funds there).

In European area I still hope that Skoda will step up, since VW is not interested and Seat too is not anymore close that sport. Since PSA fused with FCA I don't see any Italian brand to join either, and Opel under them and their constant crisis will probably never happen. Mini, well don't even bother thinking about that.

Still hoping that Ford will back up M-Sport like they say. They have free marketing from them and that's not right, but what can we do.

Americans don't even know other sports than baseball, rugby and Nascar.

So that leaves us only on Japaneses and Skoda... Fingers crossed

[TheFlyingTuga]

This is probably strange, but don't rule out Chinese brands. Electrification is a big thing there it seems

[Francis44]

What can the WRC offer Manufacturers that other series can't? It's not an easy decision.....

Promotional material of the brands top racing machinery on roads we as citizens drive everyday. People usually forget but there is only one top FIA sport oferring this, and its the WRC.

[deephouse]

Hyundai promote i30 and Veloster through TCR series, even in World class. They are entering with i30 Sedan in British championship too. These cars is not prototypes or something like that in WEC. Toyota promote their pickup Hilux through Dakar and cross country rallies (again world cup). Rallycross too have many ''brands''.

I mean Formula series and sports cars (WEC and similar) are kinda different, but still they promote at least technology and maybe implement that in their future cars, who knows.

[RS]

YLE Sport piece in english.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fyle.fi%2Furheilu%2F3-11077680

another one with interessting viewpoints
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fyle.fi%2Furheilu%2F3-11077330

FIA discusses plans to save WRC

Perhaps Citroen withdrawal will prompt a complete rethink of the 2022 rules, but they need to do that fast.

Maybe something like R5 with bigger restrictor, 6 speed box, more aero and hybrid tech for liaison sections.

[AndyRAC]

Promotional material of the brands top racing machinery on roads we as citizens drive everyday. People usually forget but there is only one top FIA sport oferring this, and its the WRC.

That is true - but why are there not more Manufacturers interested? It should be the most 'road relevant' motorsport, but for some reason it's not. Something isn't working.

[krissucool]

That is true - but why are there not more Manufacturers interested? It should be the most 'road relevant' motorsport, but for some reason it's not. Something isn't working.

Its quite clear, isnt it. Nobody knows who Ogier, Tänak or Neuville are outside of us fuel fags. Everyone knows who Lewis Hamilton or and Vettel are. Its the media, the publicity and the interest in the sport.

[Franky]

Its quite clear, isnt it. Nobody knows who Ogier, Tänak or Neuville are outside of us fuel fags. Everyone knows who Lewis Hamilton or and Vettel are. Its the media, the publicity and the interest in the sport.

I don't think F1 is doing too well behind all the pay walls they've got.

[deephouse]

It's because there isn't many top drivers out there. And that can't come without proper testing and proper backing. So it's cursed circle all around. From youngsters I only see one who maybe will be capable to reach top of the podiums but for that I'm not so sure at least for now. Latvala, Meeke and Mikkelsen had a huge shots of becoming one too but they lost it. Evans, mabe but I don't think so. SHame just that Loeb isn't interested or at least isn't still there so we could have 4 way battle.

[Mirek]

Maybe something like R5 with bigger restrictor, 6 speed box, more aero and hybrid tech for liaison sections.

No. R5 is based on limitation of cost by using of stock bodyshell, plenty of stock parts, widely restricted design solutions etc. It will not work if you start adding hybrid technologies with much higher torque (parts will start to fail), batteries (no space dedicated for them in the stock cars) etc. For the hybrid tech. the ideal solution is exactly what FIA propose - space frame based prototype cars. It's much easier for everyone and IMHO not more expensive than crazy modifications of a stock car.

Also the proposed solution allows whatever manufacturer to join no matter what he produces in series and that is an absolute must these days. IMHO the space frame based cars shall have been introduced already with the 2017 generation of cars.

[RS]

If the hybrid technology is just for road sections then I don't think it will have huge torque that R5 transmissions can't cope with?

[Mirek]

If it's used only for the road sections than it's useless several hundreds kilograms in the car, i.e. nonsense for me.

[RS]

If it's used only for the road sections than it's useless several hundreds kilograms in the car, i.e. nonsense for me.

I agree, but that seems to be the FIA proposal.

[deephouse]

Then FULL electric, lower down mileage of stages and maybe one year or two later so the teams could be prepared well. Or simply find one individual brand and make electric powertrain for all teams. Then they can decide what to do with them. Isn't Formula E running like that?

[Francis44]

Then FULL electric, lower down mileage of stages and maybe one year or two later so the teams could be prepared well. Or simply find one individual brand and make electric powertrain for all teams. Then they can decide what to do with them. Isn't Formula E running like that?

Why? To end up like Rallycross and have all manus leave?! That is not the step, atleast right now.

[deephouse]

Hyundai, Toyota will spend each 2 mio or more on development, then every car (if this is true will start only for powertrain) at 500.000 and other stuff. I think it would be more than million per car. Do you think M-Sport have that kind of amount for succesful business? And then what, in like 3 years there would be cheaper? Before 2017 season everyone talk about huge costs and now teams are considering to leave... And with that new hybrid it's even worse, especially if the tech will only be used at road section. Completely stupid, as far I know.

And I still have a feeling they are not decided what to do exactly, so that's the problem too for manufacturers. Right now they are delaying rules to be released later...

Rallycross could be easier to adapt that, because of very short lenght and time of stages, but I think that huge part of that is infrastructure. Not every host country could provide such amount of power. We will see what this Project E will bring if it will ever be adapted. Not so sure why ARX was cancelled after all that hype about becoming premier league.

[Rally Power]

Then FULL electric, lower down mileage of stages and maybe one year or two later so the teams could be prepared well. Or simply find one individual brand and make electric powertrain for all teams. Then they can decide what to do with them. Isn't Formula E running like that?

For gods sake, do you really want to ruin the sport turning the WRC into a Mickey Mouse stages championship? Forget EVs in rally; their safety and range issues can’t be solved in a proper way.

[Mirek]

Then FULL electric, lower down mileage of stages and maybe one year or two later so the teams could be prepared well. Or simply find one individual brand and make electric powertrain for all teams. Then they can decide what to do with them. Isn't Formula E running like that?

The problem with that is that nobody will watch it just like Formula E because it's simply booooring.

Also what You are going to do when the car starts to burn somewhere in the forest in 35°C?

[Duvel]

Hybrid seems the way to go for me. Bit of best of both worlds, petrolheads (like me) have sound and notice, which in my opinion is one of the key elements of the whole rally feeling.

Rally's can keep there current length which is also a must, the endurance element can be used for marketing to. If let's say Toyota gets a 1 and 2 result in safari, it proves there car is fast, strong and reliable.

Also the "eco" lovers will be satisfied.

To keep costs down there should be a simple hybrid system, so that manufacturers cant/don't start a expensive race for that. Strict rules or one system provided by one company.

Tube chassis seems like a good idea to me also.

To be honest, in real life I think there should be a balance also. In city's the logic thing is full electric, that's clear. But outside of those city's it AL depends on ho is driving, and why. Hybrid for most of us I think, and long distance drivers and heavy machinery should be last Gen diesel.

[deephouse]

How many works teams are there and how many are here?

Cars burned before with internal combustion engines.

[Mirek]

Cars burned before with internal combustion engines.

That's completely different thing. You can extinguish burning petrol car muuuuuch easier than li-ion batteries. That's a simple fact.

[deephouse]

Hybrid have batteries? And petrol... now calculate

[Mirek]

To be honest, in real life I think there should be a balance also. In city's the logic thing is full electric, that's clear. But outside of those city's it AL depends on ho is driving, and why. Hybrid for most of us I think, and long distance drivers and heavy machinery should be last Gen diesel.

Even though I consider buying a hybrid as my next car as well I do not actually agree. Hybrids are extremely technically complicated. While I repeat again and again that the complete electrification is not prepared I do agree that pure EVs are much simpler and potentially less expensive cars. Hybrids are just a half-way something which is totally overcomplicated.

[Mirek]

Hybrid have batteries? And petrol... now calculate

Hybrids don't necessarily need batteries (for example Toyota in Le Mans didn't use batteries - but that depends on how the rules are set) and even if they do those are much smaller than for pure EV.

Petrol is much smaller issue for extinguishing than batteries. Period.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Volkswagen will withdraw its factory backing of any programme using an internal combustion engine at the end of this year, as it looks to an electrified future.

https://www.autosport.com/other/news/147305/vw-to-stop-backing-combustion-engine-programmes

[RS]

Volkswagen will withdraw its factory backing of any programme using an internal combustion engine at the end of this year, as it looks to an electrified future.

https://www.autosport.com/other/news/147305/vw-to-stop-backing-combustion-engine-programmes

Seems to mean just Volkswagen, not Volkswagen Group.

[pantealex]

Seems to mean just Volkswagen, not Volkswagen Group.

Only Volkswagen

NOT Audi, Bentley, Cupra, Lamborghini, Porsche, Seat or Skoda

[Rally Power]

Volkswagen will withdraw its factory backing of any programme using an internal combustion engine at the end of this year, as it looks to an electrified future.
https://www.autosport.com/other/news/147305/vw-to-stop-backing-combustion-engine-programmes

VW execs are a bunch of hypocrites; they only become EVs lovers after getting caught in the emissions scandal and they’re milking EVs cow the harder they can as they know people will end realizing that EVs are globally harmful to the environment.

Hats off to Toyota; they’ve invested on Hybrids a long time ago as a way to make ICE cars more efficient and sustainable.

[Norm75]

Funny thing is all the bad press diesels get for harmful emissions VW's sister brand Audi are doing away with petrol engines in their sports 'S' range in favour of Diesel engined versions.

[tomhlord]

Volkswagen will withdraw its factory backing of any programme using an internal combustion engine at the end of this year, as it looks to an electrified future.

https://www.autosport.com/other/news/147305/vw-to-stop-backing-combustion-engine-programmes

I don't think they won't be the last either, I'm afraid.

Also worth noting that like the Polo WRC '17, there is a working MK8 Golf TCR now that will never be used.

[Rallyper]

Dieselengines can swallow so many different fuels... even environmental friendly ones.

[Tarmop]

So can petrol engines...question is, which of the is environmentally friendly? Apart from animal slaughterwaste FAME/gas and waste water gas, i can`t think of any...ok, algaes maybe. And that goes for the production part only. When they burn, it`s quite the opposite.

[Mirek]

What is environmental friendly fuel?

Diesel engine's problem is that it either produce a lot of NOx or a lot of solid particles. That is a fact which can not be avoided. Afterwards it needs expensive add-ons to fight them such as SCR or particle filters or lately both. That makes them very complicated and expensive.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What is environmental friendly fuel?



Electricity from renewable sources - wind, wave, solar, hydro.

[deephouse]

Hydrogen?

[robertr]

What is environmental friendly fuel?

1885

[Mirek]

Hydrogen?


Electricity from renewable sources - wind, wave, solar, hydro.

Which of that can be burned in diesel?

Btw. I don't consider wind turbines to be that environmental friendly because they produce a lot of low frequency noise.

[Norm75]

Dieselengines can swallow so many different fuels... even environmental friendly ones.
Doesn't matter, diesel already has so much bad press the common man isn't going to research what fuels, environmental or not, they can run on.

[Mirek]

Doesn't matter, diesel already has so much bad press the common man isn't going to research what fuels, environmental or not, they can run on.

Same genuine question. What environmental friendly fuel can diesel burn?

[Norm75]

Which of that can be burned in diesel?

Btw. I don't consider wind turbines to be that environmental friendly because they produce a lot of low frequency noise.
And also probably use a lot of energy to produce the things, transport them, etc in the first place.

[RS]

And also probably use a lot of energy to produce the things, transport them, etc in the first place.

You could make that argument about pretty much any form of energy though. Even cavemen burnt fires.

[Norm75]

You could make that argument about pretty much any form of energy though. Even cavemen burnt fires.

Indeed you could. Would be interesting to know how much energy a wind turbine farm would need to produce before it became carbon neutral though.

[Norm75]

Same genuine question. What environmental friendly fuel can diesel burn?
Don't ask me, I'm not suggesting they can. Merely pointing out the irony of Volkswagen pulling out of wrc because of the diesel gate scandal and the subsequent bent on electricity when the performance arm of there sister company is going from what is perceived to be cleaner petrol engines to diesels which will always have a stigma attached to them nowadays.

[Rally Hokkaido]

Same genuine question. What environmental friendly fuel can diesel burn?

Where I live, people are encouraged to recycle waste cooking oil. They can leave it at supermarkets or even on public buses. A company then processes it into diesel fuel and the same buses run it. I don't know if that is environmentally friendly though, because whenever a bus drives by me I want to buy a hamburger and chips!

[Tarmop]

In terms of using byproducts instead of crude oil, it is...but burning it is not. I´d say in pollution terms, the opposite...but using old oil as fuel mostly makes me think about w123 Mercs also. :D

[deephouse]

All that talk now remaind me of that orange Scoda from one rally when they have exhaust mounted on the hood and it was smoking from it like some old locomotive. Still makes me laugh 😂

[Indreq]

I tried to argue here that enforcing hybrids as new core technology in new tech regulations might not be motivating for manufacturers because by that time it is old technology aldready and carries little marketing value. Seems that VW is making this decision already now : https://www.thedrive.com/news/31162/volkswagen-axes-all-non-electric-racing-programs-worldwide?fbclid=IwAR0oZ8fB3e71o7Klzc90a2RmBftj5gR Oq5JFoUiqFBNYlPa5yd8x8o4u3ug

[Oops!]

Their effort to look squeaky clean after their "diesel gate" fiasco a few years ago i'd imagine....

[Rally Power]

I tried to argue here that enforcing hybrids as new core technology in new tech regulations might not be motivating for manufacturers because by that time it is old technology aldready and carries little marketing value. Seems that VW is making this decision already now : https://www.thedrive.com/news/31162/volkswagen-axes-all-non-electric-racing-programs-worldwide?fbclid=IwAR0oZ8fB3e71o7Klzc90a2RmBftj5gR Oq5JFoUiqFBNYlPa5yd8x8o4u3ug

It won’t be a total ICE ban as VW America presented a couple of days ago their new program for next year Baja 1000, using the ‘good old’ WRC engine: https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/31147/480-hp-volkswagen-atlas-cross-sport-r-off-road-truck-will-race-at-2020-baja-1000

Btw, VW will plant 1000 trees to compensate the program carbon impact; it’d be great if instead endorsing full EVs in motorsport they plant a thousands more to return to the WRC!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

FIA to have back-up plan if interest in hybrid WRC 2022 stalls:

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147482/fia-to-have-backup-plan-if-hybrid-push-stalls

[TypeR]

So already before revealing new regs, they basically assume it will fail.. To me, Matton is the biggest ,,problem,, when talking about 2022 rules.. It has been postponed for so long, that manufacturers will soon run short of time with developing new cars..

Could it be that Citroen was the loudest about hybrid era cars and maybe ,,requested'' some certain things about the new cars? And now when they left, Matton/FIA has to rethink the rules..?

[Mirek]

So already before revealing new regs, they basically assume it will fail.. To me, Matton is the biggest ,,problem,, when talking about 2022 rules.. It has been postponed for so long, that manufacturers will soon run short of time with developing new cars..

Could it be that Citroen was the loudest about hybrid era cars and maybe ,,requested'' some certain things about the new cars? And now when they left, Matton/FIA has to rethink the rules..?

Don't forget that the manufacturers have to find compromise as well. It's not only an FIA game and since I have been working with car manufacturers for a long time I know that it can be extremely difficult to find some compromise with them, especially if it's more manufacturers who need to agree on something.

[Rally Power]

Don't forget that the manufacturers have to find compromise as well.

Very true. The unanimity on WRC ’17 rules was an exception as most of the times manus have different views and it’s not easy to get a consensus (it took ages to replace WRC 2L cars). In this case, Matton started by saying that FIA’s option would be a common spec low budget hybrid; later we get to know that manus would be free to develop their systems after a short transition period; now it seems Hybrids may not happen at all…

Matton ‘ultimatum’ makes one to believe that a figth over the new rules is going on. It’s not hard to imagine that Toyota is probably pushing for high tech in-house developed hybrids, once they’re used to them in the WEC. With current WRC costs being already an issue, as Citroen pull-out remembered, to allow expensive hybrids would be disastrous.

To keep current cars, as they’ve the wow factor the series needs, while adopting low budget hybrids (like other series are doing: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport/cosworth-will-provide-hybrid-technology-btcc-2022 ) is probably the most sensible option for WRC future.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I like this from Colin McMaster:

What about R5+ ? MSport even made one once.

Put a full aero kit onto an R5 & open up the restrictor [and/or add a control-spec hybrid unit]
With the world’s best wheelmen on-board they would look amazing.

[deephouse]

Could bodyshell hold up, and safety? I think it's more complicated. But there are many engineers and 2 years time to develop that, so not a stupid idea at all

[denkimi]

They should just keep the current engines but give them all the name "hybrid".

The fans don't want or care about hybrids, and the people that do care about them don't care or know anything about the sport.
Just like ford named their engine ecoboost.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Highly-modified versions of my road car have hybrid turbo's ! ;)

[AndyRAC]

I like this from Colin McMaster:

What about R5+ ? MSport even made one once.

Put a full aero kit onto an R5 & open up the restrictor [and/or add a control-spec hybrid unit]
With the world’s best wheelmen on-board they would look amazing.

I'm pretty sure it made it's debut on the Grizedale Stages in 2013/14??? can't remember now, whether Matt or Elfyn drove it; I did film it on my old i-Phone.

However, I certainly think R5+ but with a 'spec'/ control hybrid could work. I also think that everybody has to be pragmatic (FiA, Manufacturers, the Promoter, etc), whilst trying to keep the sport relevant to those same Manufacturers.

[AnttiL]

Could bodyshell hold up, and safety?

Brakes, suspension, gearbox...we would see a lot more broken parts due to higher power. And if you start reinforcing them, it's soon back to WRC.

[Franky]

Does anyone have any idea what's the cost difference between a spaceframe and production chassis based cars?

[JAM]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but shouldn't this WMC meeting had been to the aproval of the 2022 WRC regulations?

They only aproved the guidelines? But wasn't this been done in the last June WMC?

I think all this process is being later month by month...

[AnttiL]

The teams have now until April to decide whether they commit to the 2022 rules or not.

[er88]

With Matton in a position of power I fear the worst. Bloke inspires no confidence, just look what he's caused at Citroen before jumping ship.

As for R5 cars, they just lack spectacle and a wow factor. And I don't think its all speed related, they just dont sound great at all.

The s2000s weren't hugely fast (slower than current R5s obviously), but nobody can deny they were spectacular when stood stage side in a forest hearing them popping and banging for miles. It's no coincidence the IRC exploded in popularity with those cars (the same series wouldn't have grown anywhere near as much if the class below the wrc remained group N). That's why any sort of full electric won't work in the WRC unless they produce some realistic artificial noise (as naff as that sounds). I watched a clip of the electric rally cross car driven by Stohl and Delecour, and it looked incredibly fast. The drivers were amazed, but a washing machine makes more noise and I wouldn't go to watch rally cars like that for free.

[JAM]

The teams have now until April to decide whether they commit to the 2022 rules or not.

Wich rules? The guidelines or the regulations?

[Mirek]

Does anyone have any idea what's the cost difference between a spaceframe and production chassis based cars?

I dare to say that the space frame is in the end cheaper option for the manufacturers. For sure it's much easier one to manage because it is in no way connected with the burden of serial production and can be designed and perfectly optimized from scratch.

[denkimi]

it will depend on what the rules for the spaceframe will be. you could build one out of carbonfiber and titanium, but it will cost more than a bodyshell out of steel.

[Mirek]

You can use exotic materials on whatever solution. That's only a matter of rules but I don't see a point in going into an extrememum just to prove that something can be made expensive. Of course it can but anything can be made expensive if you allow that.

[Zeakiwi2]

FIA should look at a single manufacturer for a control central spaceframe chassis option. The suspension add ons can be car brand specific. Use DTM type safety cells that would be difficult to add to road car body shells etc. Cost control might be better - one maker building a larger volume of space frames - development costs spread etc, Maybe better mounting/ protection of hybrid system battery.
https://www.heggemann.com/markets-products/automotive

[the sniper]

We wait all these years for a homologation special (Toyota Yaris GR-4), only for the WRC to switch to spaceframe chassis...

For me, unless moving to spaceframe chassis definitely brings in more manufacturers, like Suburu coming in with a scaled down Impre(tend)za(?), I'll personally really lament losing the only real tie to production road cars. Part of the appeal for me is manufacturers having to transform what they're sending down production line into what we see out on the stages.

[RS]

Anyone read the very first post in this thread recently?

How prescient!

[RS]

As for R5 cars, they just lack spectacle and a wow factor. And I don't think its all speed related, they just dont sound great at all.

Just do whatever it was Skoda did to this Fabia R5 test car.. clearly still a Fabia R5 but sounds much more aggressive than the normal one, somehow.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qbBCTzc5LFg

[Mirek]

We wait all these years for a homologation special (Toyota Yaris GR-4), only for the WRC to switch to spaceframe chassis...

For me, unless moving to spaceframe chassis definitely brings in more manufacturers, like Suburu coming in with a scaled down Impre(tend)za(?), I'll personally really lament losing the only real tie to production road cars. Part of the appeal for me is manufacturers having to transform what they're sending down production line into what we see out on the stages.

Come on, no manufacturer have been building pefrormance cars to suit WRC conversion for more than a decade. This concept has been long dead.

[the sniper]

Come on, no manufacturer have been building pefrormance cars to suit WRC conversion for more than a decade. This concept has been long dead.

Sadly not, but underneath every WRCar is a core skeleton much like any other BIW that came off that model's production line. All were born equal, some went on to live more interesting lives than you're average runabout... While the manufacturers make little of that transformation, I think there's a beauty to that connection, the different path the rally car has taken...

To me, I just don't see what a space frame chassis means to a manufacturer or to consumers, particularly an outsourced standard FIA spec one as suggested by Zeakiwi2? People already complain about the disconnect between rallying and road going vehicles. Where does the value lie in competing or winning in rallying with that prototype? What does it prove?

[Rally Power]

Sadly not, but underneath every WRCar is a core skeleton much like any other BIW that came off that model's production line. All were born equal, some went on to live more interesting lives than you're average runabout... While the manufacturers make little of that transformation, I think there's a beauty to that connection, the different path the rally car has taken...

To me, I just don't see what a space frame chassis means to a manufacturer or to consumers, particularly an outsourced standard FIA spec one as suggested by Zeakiwi2? People already complain about the disconnect between rallying and road going vehicles. Where does the value lie in competing or winning in rallying with that prototype? What does it prove?

+1000! Sadly, we’ll probably end with some Frankenstein silhouettes inspired in tasteless SUVs…

[Rally Power]

With Matton in a position of power I fear the worst. Bloke inspires no confidence, just look what he's caused at Citroen before jumping ship.

Actually, it seems he was pushed out…anyway even if his Citroen days weren’t promising, it may not be fair blaming him for this ‘hybridgate’, as there’s little info about what’s going on. My bet is that manus are divided about what system to use and Matton lost monthes trying to find common ground, apparently in vain. April’s final call and the announcement of a B plan are probably signs that Matton is feed up with talks and will push manus to accept Hybrid rules once for all. Time will tell.

[Mirek]

To me, I just don't see what a space frame chassis means to a manufacturer or to consumers, particularly an outsourced standard FIA spec one as suggested by Zeakiwi2?

It gives an opportunity to join to any manufacturer (unlike the production-based vehicles). That is a big reason alone. Aside of that it makes the development of the car way easier for the manufacturers.


People already complain about the disconnect between rallying and road going vehicles. Where does the value lie in competing or winning in rallying with that prototype?

Who complains? The few of old-fashioned hardcore fans? Those make a tiny percentage of the target audience.


What does it prove?

It proves exactly the same as the current generation of WRC cars or the one before, or the other before. Or do you really belive you bought a half-WRC car when you bought a stock Citroën C4?

[the sniper]

Or do you really belive you bought a half-WRC car when you bought a stock Citroën C4?

I'm not sure why you're addressing me like an idiot. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Vahula]

It gives an opportunity to join to any manufacturer (unlike the production-based vehicles). That is a big reason alone. Aside of that it makes the development of the car way easier for the manufacturers.

And also change cars to new models midseason.

[bomber21]

Very sad days for the WRC and the rally fans. 2017-2019 was a great era I am afraid we won't see again unless something changes fundamentally.

It is a pity that no manufacturers are interested in WRC, while Formula E (with no fans at all) has 12 teams and almost all major car manufacturers...

I guess the world is changing but FIA and promoter MUST do something to attract manufacturers or else the product is going to die.

[rallyfiend]

And also change cars to new models midseason.

Well, I think homolgation rules will mean they can't do it mid-season, but probably easier to do during a homologation cycle (which is usually 3-5 years)

[Rally Power]

It gives an opportunity to join to any manufacturer (unlike the production-based vehicles). That is a big reason alone.


Currently the only demand for WRC manus is to use the chassis of a mass production model; they don’t have to build special homologation cars like in Gr.N/A days.

Most likely, with frame space chassis the FIA will still demand some link with mass production models (name, shape) in order to keep GT manus out of the WRC.

[T16]

Currently the only demand for WRC manus is to use the chassis of a mass production model; they don’t have to build special homologation cars like in Gr.N/A days.

Most likely, with frame space chassis the FIA will still demand some link with mass production models (name, shape) in order to keep GT manus out of the WRC.

Might be a daft question, but why would the GT manus not be welcome?

[Mirek]

Currently the only demand for WRC manus is to use the chassis of a mass production model; they don’t have to build special homologation cars like in Gr.N/A days.

Even that is a problem recently. For example Subaru or Mitsubishi, which used to be traditional rally brands, have no suitable car in their portfolio. With the new rules they can join. This issue will only grow with the time due to the development in automotive.


Most likely, with frame space chassis the FIA will still demand some link with mass production models (name, shape) in order to keep GT manus out of the WRC.

Same name and similar shape is clearly required but the size can be scaled under certain tolerances. Basically the same what already works very well in Dakar. It means that for example Subaru can take Impreza and scale its shape down and build a space-frame proto car looking like Impreza.

[deephouse]

They can enter as in R-GT models...

[Mirek]

They can enter as in R-GT models...

R-GT is bound to fail to attract manufacturer teams because of the position of the R-GT cars on the rally ladder. The GT manufacturers are not here to fight for the crumbs left after WRC manufacturers. They are the premium brands on the market and it has no logic for them to join a level bellow brands like Hyundai. There is zero marketing value in that (quite the opposite).

[Mise]

Very sad days for the WRC and the rally fans. 2017-2019 was a great era I am afraid we won't see again unless something changes fundamentally.

It is a pity that no manufacturers are interested in WRC, while Formula E (with no fans at all) has 12 teams and almost all major car manufacturers...

I guess the world is changing but FIA and promoter MUST do something to attract manufacturers or else the product is going to die.

For me these -17 cars were a big mistake. They are too expensive and too hard to get for privateers and the lack of competition is really bothering me.
Yes, we had the big 3 competing, but we should have at least 10 drivers able to drive for the win. 1 crash and R5 driver has points.
For me that's not the way to do it.

I still like the idea of R5 being the top class. We could have 3 championships going on.
1 for drivers
1 for teams with 2 cars
and 1 for manus with 3 or 5 cars getting manu points. That way manus had to support at least 2 or maybe even 3 teams.

Imagine five current manus (Ford, Skoda, Citroen, Hyundai and VW) in R5 and multiply that with 4 or 6.
There's your top drivers!

[Tarmop]

They arent`t bothered, beacuse their slogans say " EV" or "hybrid". And competition would be like now most likely.

[pantealex]

I still like the idea of R5 being the top class. We could have 3 championships going on.
1 for drivers
1 for teams with 2 cars
and 1 for manus with 3 or 5 cars getting manu points. That way manus had to support at least 2 or maybe even 3 teams.

Imagine five current manus (Ford, Skoda, Citroen, Hyundai and VW) in R5 and multiply that with 4 or 6.
There's your top drivers!

Manufacturers doesn´t want R5 as main class so it doesn´t matter what you want...

[Mise]

Manufacturers doesn´t want R5 as main class so it doesn´t matter what you want...

I know that cos none of the manus ask me nothing :D

[the sniper]

For me these -17 cars were a big mistake. They are too expensive and too hard to get for privateers and the lack of competition is really bothering me.
Yes, we had the big 3 competing, but we should have at least 10 drivers able to drive for the win. 1 crash and R5 driver has points.
For me that's not the way to do it.

Surely you haven't seen the WRC'17 car in person? There's no way I'd have traded the last three years for three years of R5s instead. What's to say there would have been more manufacturers anyway? Skoda were there with the R5 regardless, with works drivers. You'd have traded out around ten WRC supercars each season for what, 15 or so top line works R5 entries? While R5 are pretty good when being driven flat out by the best drivers, but as a spectacle they're nothing compared to the WRC'17 cars. There's even still a gap between the R5 and the older WRC cars.

As for the bit in bold, what makes you think we'd have had more/different drivers ABLE win if the top class was R5? Who has had more potential to win a WRC round than the drivers already winning in WRCars?

That's not to say that I'd be against a modified R5 class in future to replace the WRCars, at least with larger air restrictor and a small, standardised (box ticking) hybrid system for the purposes of marketing. If that were possible.

[Mirek]

If the aim is to kill the R5 for the privateers than making it the top level class is a good idea... otherwise, figure.

[Mise]

Surely you haven't seen the WRC'17 car in person? There's no way I'd have traded the last three years for three years of R5s instead. What's to say there would have been more manufacturers anyway? Skoda were there with the R5 regardless, with works drivers. You'd have traded out around ten WRC supercars each season for what, 15 or so top line works R5 entries? While R5 are pretty good when being driven flat out by the best drivers, but as a spectacle they're nothing compared to the WRC'17 cars. There's even still a gap between the R5 and the older WRC cars.

As for the bit in bold, what makes you think we'd have had more/different drivers ABLE win if the top class was R5? Who has had more potential to win a WRC round than the drivers already winning in WRCars?

That's not to say that I'd be against a modified R5 class in future to replace the WRCars, at least with larger air restrictor and a small, standardised (box ticking) hybrid system for the purposes of marketing. If that were possible.

I've seen them, but don't like the F1-like wings. Prefered the -16 rule that you could turn R5 to WRC and vise versa. Again for me it's not the tech but the competition.
And I don't like the fact that the new generation WRC-cars don't have to resemble any production car, but again that's just me.

I also know that i can't achieve anything with this post, but just want to give my opinion.
And I've seen Group B cars live back in -83, so I am not a newbie with the sports.

Rant over!

[Tarmop]

RRC and WRC, R5 is totally different.

[Mise]

RRC and WRC, R5 is totally different.

Think RRC was just a Ford marketing thing, but the group was R5

[SubaruNorway]

Any chance you could make the aero from fiberglass or plastic or would it break too easy?
Ban wind tunnel testing? I guess the computer can calculate it good enough anyway now?

[Tarmop]

Think RRC was just a Ford marketing thing, but the group was R5

No. They were allowed to compete in one class, soon afer they were banned for their price and speed. RRC Mini (with a different name, S2000 1.6T) and DS3 also exist. In the end there were some bolt-on/off things to be changed, but the car was pretty much a WRC, different rear wing, front bumper, tarmac brakes and smaller restrictor.

[Mirek]

Any chance you could make the aero from fiberglass or plastic or would it break too easy?
Ban wind tunnel testing? I guess the computer can calculate it good enough anyway now?

It's sure possible. It just needs to be thicker and heavier.

[Mirek]

Think RRC was just a Ford marketing thing, but the group was R5

No. RRC is an M-Sport name for something which is technically S2000 with 1.6T engine. R5 is completely different thing.


Prefered the -16 rule that you could turn R5 to WRC and vise versa.

WRC 2011-2016 were basically up-tuned S2000 (or RRC in case the S2000 had 1.6T engine). The S2000/RRC were reasonably more expensive than the R5 at the peak of their popularity. R5 is a different thing built according to different philosophy (much more stock parts, price caps not only for the whole car but also for the components etc.).

The combination of regional rally car and world rally car proved to be a wrong thing. Basically mobody was converting the cars from RRC to WRC and back (some did but very rarely) and the only result was that the regional rally cars got way too expensive.


RRC and WRC, R5 is totally different.

This.

[Mise]

No. RRC is an M-Sport name for something which is technically S2000 with 1.6T engine. R5 is completely different thing.



WRC 2011-2016 were basically up-tuned S2000 (or RRC in case the S2000 had 1.6T engine). The S2000/RRC were reasonably more expensive than the R5 at the peak of their popularity. R5 is a different thing built according to different philosophy (much more stock parts, price caps not only for the whole car but also for the components etc.).

The combination of regional rally car and world rally car proved to be a wrong thing. Basically mobody was converting the cars from RRC to WRC and back (some did but very rarely) and the only result was that the regional rally cars got way too expensive.



This.

Ok, I'll give up. Let the good times roll with 6 WRC cars.

[RS]

If the aim is to kill the R5 for the privateers than making it the top level class is a good idea... otherwise, figure.

Why not keep R5 cars as they are but make WRCar rules R5 based, ie. with upgrades? Make minimum length 4.3m if it brings more manufacturers in.

I’m one of those quite uncomfortable with a growing lack of relation between the road cars and the rally car.

[Mirek]

Why not keep R5 cars as they are but make WRCar rules R5 based, ie. with upgrades? Make minimum length 4.3m if it brings more manufacturers in.

I’m one of those quite uncomfortable with a growing lack of relation between the road cars and the rally car.

Because it will not work. It was mentioned here already plenty of times. Higher power and torque means that you can forget about using most of the R5 parts. You would end with new rules and different cars anyway.

For what would be the minimal lenght 4,3 meters good for? For making those cars slower than the R5?

[Rally Power]

Might be a daft question, but why would the GT manus not be welcome?

Not daft at all; unfortunately that has been the case since Gr.B extinction (RGT is a deception as the cars aren't allowed to run in a competitive way, like they should).

GT's apart, it seems the WRC may soon face a dilemma due to costs escalade: to keep current cars but to limit the length of the calendar and even of the events in order to decrease running costs or to keep the calendar expansion and the events layout but to replace current cars for less expensive (and less exciting) ones. It's a hard choice.

[Mirek]

GT's apart, it seems the WRC may soon face a dilemma due to costs escalade: to keep current cars but to limit the length of the calendar and even of the events in order to decrease running costs or to keep the calendar expansion and the events layout but to replace current cars for less expensive (and less exciting) ones. It's a hard choice.

Sorry to disagree again. The issue is not the cost but the value in the current socia-political climate. Simply the manufacturers need to have a reason to invest. It doesn't help if you manage to decrease cost by let's say 20% (that's a lot) if the value is not there. The same applies vice versa.

In other words - would you buy something which you neither need nor want just because it's cheap? Probably not, right?

[cali]

Ok, I'll give up. Let the good times roll with 6 WRC cars.So you do not remember group B days with only handful of cars and the participation was even more hectic on these days, yet everybody is crying to get these days back. The group A beginning was the same. Go figure how short human memory is.

Rallying usually have had 2 - 3 teams so this is not something new for this sport. So by your standards rallying has had "good times" on most of it's existence.

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[RS]

For what would be the minimal lenght 4,3 meters good for? For making those cars slower than the R5?

To address the problem you identified that certain manufacturers do not have a car smaller than this.

I agree with your point that cheaper does not automatically mean better value, but FIA will have to make damn sure there is strong manufacturer interest in the new rules because as we are seeing now when a manufacturer pulls out it is very hard for privateer teams or drivers to fill the gap.

They say they want to see stronger competition in R5 class to make up the difference. I hope that happens.. in order to help with that the promoter should give that category stronger media coverage.

[deephouse]

So you do not remember group B days with only handful of cars and the participation was even more hectic on these days, yet everybody is crying to get these days back. The group A beginning was the same. Go figure how short human memory is.

Rallying usually have had 2 - 3 teams so this is not something new for this sport. So by your standards rallying has had "good times" on most of it's existence.

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I don't know where you live but Group B had from 12-16 teams in their era. Group A from 16 down to ''just 5'' and then again rising to incredible 28.

How many teams are now? From 5 down to 3 and ZERO privateers!!

Look we just want to see more of them like in old days where there were plenty cars and drivers out there. Don't really care if all of them is privateers just to be there so we could enjoy a little more than just 5 main cars, and the rest of 10 WRC2 cars and 70 R2 entries if we have luck.

[SubaruNorway]

If you think of it in another way with the 2-3min gaps you have now you don't normally have time to watch much more than the 8-10 WRC cars if you want to see more than two stages a day, so if there were more cars you would end up watching fewer stages especially on Saturday and Sunday when you want to wait for the fastest drivers and you won't see more cars anyway.
There's not really space for more cars on TV than what it is right now either.

GroupB had 10-15 teams, if you count cars like Ascona 400
The main 4WD cars were around 5-8, sometimes 2

[deephouse]

It's because they show Qassimi for like 15 minutes and then all others for 30 secs max and 3 drivers rotating

[SubaruNorway]

It's because they show Qassimi for like 15 minutes and then all others for 30 secs max and 3 drivers rotating

I meant the highlights shows

[Mirek]

To address the problem you identified that certain manufacturers do not have a car smaller than this.

A car based on the R5 rules being so large would likely be slower than the R5. It makes little sense.

[Sulland]

Manufacturers doesn´t want R5 as main class so it doesn´t matter what you want...

Why the hell should it matter what the manufacturers want?
They should not have any saying in the future of rally as a sport. The car is just a tool. FIA need to focus on getting the top level broader with many possible winners, and that youngsters see a real possibility to reach the top class.

[AnttiL]

Why the hell should it matter what the manufacturers want?
They should not have any saying in the future of rally as a sport. The car is just a tool. FIA need to focus on getting the top level broader with many possible winners, and that youngsters see a real possibility to reach the top class.

They pay for it. Motorsport is different to "normal" sports in a way that it's half marketing. That's why even the televising people have their say in the rules and arrangement of the stages.

[AnttiL]

I don't know where you live but Group B had from 12-16 teams in their era. Group A from 16 down to ''just 5'' and then again rising to incredible 28.

Wait, what does "team" mean?

At first it was a contest between Audi, Lancia and Opel. Then Opel left and Peugeot joined, RWD cars started getting obsolete. Toyota and Nissan were all the time there around, but were competitible only in African rallies. Even in 1986 with Metro, Ford and Citroen joining in, didn't change the fact that it was a Lancia vs Peugeot contest (after Audi pulled out).

Teams not capable of winning have been also around in the eras of Group A (Nissan, Mazda) and WRC (Seat, Skoda). For some people it's just important to see the number of main class cars on the stages, no matter if they can win or not. For me it's more about the sporting aspect.

We just had a rare era from 2017 to 2019 with four main teams competing quite equally with each other, all capable of winning rallies (M-Sport were very close to winning Corsica in 2019)

[Mirek]

Why the hell should it matter what the manufacturers want?
They should not have any saying in the future of rally as a sport. The car is just a tool. FIA need to focus on getting the top level broader with many possible winners, and that youngsters see a real possibility to reach the top class.

Are you for real? Sorry but this is the dumbest thing I have read here in years.

If you don't listen the manufacturers they leave. When they leave the sponsors leave. When the sponsors leave even the privateers are fucked because there is no money to spend. You just killed the sport. Congratulations.

[cali]

I don't know where you live but Group B had from 12-16 teams in their era. Group A from 16 down to ''just 5'' and then again rising to incredible 28.

How many teams are now? From 5 down to 3 and ZERO privateers!!

Look we just want to see more of them like in old days where there were plenty cars and drivers out there. Don't really care if all of them is privateers just to be there so we could enjoy a little more than just 5 main cars, and the rest of 10 WRC2 cars and 70 R2 entries if we have luck.You just threw some random numbers in?

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[Rally Power]

Sorry to disagree again. The issue is not the cost but the value in the current socia-political climate. Simply the manufacturers need to have a reason to invest. It doesn't help if you manage to decrease cost by let's say 20% (that's a lot) if the value is not there. The same applies vice versa.
In other words - would you buy something which you neither need nor want just because it's cheap? Probably not, right?

This isn't about going cheap; it's about controlling costs and avoid their escalation because costs do matter in motorsport.

Instead of a rhetorical question I'll give you a proper example: in 2011 Peugeot leaved the WEC/LM, a high valued series for them, due to increasing costs (notably the first Hybrid regs); they moved to the Dakar and later to the WRX and now they're getting back to WEC/LM because the revised Hybrid regs are quite less expensive than before: https://media.groupe-psa.com/en/psa-motorsport-engages-sports-program-peugeot-brand-part-fia-world-endurance-championship-wec

Actually, WEC/LM recent history is a lesson on cost escalation effects; from 4 manus in 2015, Toyota was the only one left from 2018 onward. Most moved to the less expensive FE, certainly a series with an increasing value but still far from WEC/LM global reputation. This piece was written after Porsche WEC pull out and it's not hard to see how simillar the WRC scene is starting to look: https://www.motortrend.com/news/porsche-likely-withdrawing-le-mans-wec-formula-e-program/

P.S.: people tend to forget, but during the WRC 2L final period, with only two manus left and one clearly dominating, the FIA spent several years hearing the manus but they could never agree on new rules. At some point Mosley, then FIA president, even suggested returning to RWD cars!; finally, a few monthes after Todt was elected new president, the FIA ended the discussions and went for smaller and less expensive WRC cars, the first 1.6L generation. Like then, I wouldn't be surprised if the FIA ends imposing 2022 regs without manus agreement.

[mknight]

The dilemma when talking to manus while making the rules is always the same...

a) listen to the 2-3 manus that are in the series at the moment to make them stay
or
b) listen more to those interested in joining (but then you need firm commitment at some point)

The manus already in the series are very likely to want as few changes as possible so that they have a development advantage and can re-use as much of their existing cars as possible. The manus interested in joining will likely want the opposite.

[AndyRAC]

The dilemma when talking to manus while making the rules is always the same...

a) listen to the 2-3 manus that are in the series at the moment to make them stay
or
b) listen more to those interested in joining (but then you need firm commitment at some point)

The manus already in the series are very likely to want as few changes as possible so that they have a development advantage and can re-use as much of their existing cars as possible. The manus interested in joining will likely want the opposite.

And the solution is nearly always option (a) - which, understandably is the safe option.

I've often wondered when new regs are proposed whether the FiA are brave/ radical enough to go for option (b) if the new regs suit another set of Manufacturers better? New regs tend to be an evolution of the previous regs. It would be interesting if they went in another direction....


Costs are an important consideration for Manufacturers; however, they'll think its worth joining if there is an excellent RoI/ media exposure, etc Does the current WRC offer this? I'm not sure it does.

[SubaruNorway]

Costs are an important consideration for Manufacturers; however, they'll think its worth joining if there is an excellent RoI/ media exposure, etc Does the current WRC offer this? I'm not sure it does.

WRC could be better at Youtube, I'm getting more views on video's from the National championship.
They should take note from what F1 has been doing the last 2-3 years, they put out great content all the time bringing in new and younger fans.

[mknight]

WRC could be better at Youtube, I'm getting more views on video's from the National championship.
They should take note from what F1 has been doing the last 2-3 years, they put out great content all the time bringing in new and younger fans.

While I agree with the second part I don't think the views metric on your vids is a good example, maybe quite the opposite?

For National championship there are few good vids/coverage so people go watch your vids. For WRC rallies there is tons of coverage on allive/WRC+ as well as tons of fan vids, so less reason to watch yours in particular?

[the sniper]

For National championship there are few good vids/coverage so people go watch your vids. For WRC rallies there is tons of coverage on allive/WRC+ as well as tons of fan vids, so less reason to watch yours in particular?

Most of his highest viewed videos are WRC rallies, including Finland and Spain.

[SubaruNorway]

While I agree with the second part I don't think the views metric on your vids is a good example, maybe quite the opposite?

For National championship there are few good vids/coverage so people go watch your vids. For WRC rallies there is tons of coverage on allive/WRC+ as well as tons of fan vids, so less reason to watch yours in particular?

This is just some of my average video's from Norway, WRC channel should be able to get much more if they promoted it properly.
I didn't mean that my own WRC video's were doing bad, quite the opposite especially with the new cars with Catalunya last year when i could do all the good spots and got 2.1 mill views.

F1 review 500k in 2 days, WRC 9k in a day...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I just read an interesting list of 2020's predictions from a columnist in CAR Magazine. Among them he states that all forms of motorsport will reduce greatly in popularity with the growth of electric cars.

This will be as Manu's wont see how it will promote their road cars as performance and driving fun isnt their USP. And also racing/rallying wont be seen as an ethical way to promote such "green' transport.

And of course there is also the problem that any 'e-rally cars' will likey be as unpopular to watch as Formula-E ones are compared to regular F1 cars.

This all sounds quite credible to me and makes the future of rallying more uncertain than ever.

[TypeR]

I think that Manus, who plan to race in WRC, should make similar road cars.. as they once did with STi's and EVO's.. I imagine smth like 250bhp 4wd hybrid cars..

[Mirek]

I think that Manus, who plan to race in WRC, should make similar road cars.. as they once did with STi's and EVO's.. I imagine smth like 250bhp 4wd hybrid cars..

They will not. This is pretty clear. Such cars are super expensive to develop and produce and will be even more with the new emission standards. You would need to sell millions of them to make them profitable and that is of course nothing but sci-fi. Such market simply doesn't exist.

[deephouse]

Doesn't Fiesta ST isn't good enough. Toyota is developing new Yaris GR-4.. And I'm sure that with new i20 we will soon seen N version of it too.

Even if one of them try icons will never be replaced.

Lancer and Impreza are legends, just like quattro, Delta or Escort.

I'm very impressed when I see it in person but I can't say that for "new versions" of Delta, WRX, and "newest" Lancer.

[Mirek]

There is little information about the technical side of the Yaris GR-4 but Fiesta ST can not be in any way compared to the cars like STi or Evo.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Shame none of the 4WD hot-hatches of today have any link wirh rallying.

The Golf R for example is about the dullest looking and driving performance car out there. And even the Focus RS looks anonymous to the general public.

[Vahula]

Can someone do a photoshop of a Rally Taycan :D

[NickRally]

In another thread Rally Power (and Cali) suggested writing about my thoughts on the rally future, which I, out of respect, will do, but following the discussion so far, I think pretty much every topic has been covered well.

• Spaceframe chassis – knowing how things have developed in other forms of motorsport, I won’t be surprised if FIA (as already suggested in this thread) introduce a single make spaceframe assembly supplied to each manufacturer for them to add their own mechanical components and bodywork. Will it be a chipper way for existing manufacturers to go rallying and facilitate new ones to enter in - most likely. Am I fun of this solution – no, but if it allows rallying to survive, I am not going to be against it. Other series have gone through a similar process (i.e. Nascar moving from stock chassis to spaceframe long time ago and DTM with single type survival cell), so it is difficult to argue.
• Propulsion system type – I am an older generation, so the internal combustion engine is engrained in my DNA, though as an engineer, I can’t fail to see the advantages of the electric motor as a propulsion system (obviously the energy source for these is not yet there). My fear is that neither (or combination there off) of these is a satisfactory solution one way or another, as pointed out in various posts here. The potential and hypothetical new generation of spectators that would be interested in electric power is not tremendously concerned with motorsport in general, while the older one like me, with the internal combustion engine in mind, do not represent a segment of the population that the manufacturers much care about. Some form of hybrid may temporarily satisfy the current manufacturers but, as pointed by others, even this is becoming quickly outdated in the automotive world. And we have to agree with Mirek, that rallying must be attractive from marketing point of view to the manufacturers in order to persuade them to splash the cash on rally cars.

All of the above means it will be very challenging for motorsport to survive in general. Interestingly somebody at work pointed out to the below (few months old now) link yesterday – even less reasons to be optimistic

https://www.thegwpf.com/net-zero-co2-emissions-by-2050-requires-a-new-nuclear-power-plant-every-day/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D83X9OGVsAEdDo5.jpg

Interestingly, I am of the opinion that the future of transportation will look like in the Minority Report film, with the automated city/motorway cars (in my opinion) being powered by rails embedded in the road with small batteries present to cover any stretches of unpowered roads, which leaves even less room for any marketing interest in rallying from whatever vehicle manufacturers are left out there.

On the positive side, historic motorsport will most likely thrive, at least for a while as the rich would be able to buy their way out of anything.

[NickRally]

By the way Toyota GR-4 sounds great, I am sure they didn’t mean Gazoo Racing by the “GR” acronym, but “Group” 4 – excellent reference to the heritage of rallying.

[racerx1979]

By the way Toyota GR-4 sounds great, I am sure they didn’t mean Gazoo Racing by the “GR” acronym, but “Group” 4 – excellent reference to the heritage of rallying.

GR just like the Toyota Supra GR stands for Gazoo Racing. GR (Gazoo Racing) is basically Toyota's "M" division like the BMW.

[NickRally]

GR just like the Toyota Supra GR stands for Gazoo Racing. GR (Gazoo Racing) is basically Toyota's "M" division like the BMW.

Hi racerx1979, it was a joke :)

[Andre Oliveira]

https://youtu.be/xv6ZF1LMhFY

[er88]

The absolute state of watching that stage-side.

[SubaruNorway]

https://youtu.be/xv6ZF1LMhFY

Unless they have found some tyre with insane grip in the rain a lot of that was speeded up...

[TypeR]

Unless they have found some tyre with insane grip in the rain a lot of that was speeded up...

Thought the same.. like Knight Rider back in the 80's :D

[mknight]

Thought the same.. like Knight Rider back in the 80's :D

Obligatory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNyXYPhnUIs

To stay on topic, the vid is sped up and crap. Impossible to say anything about the car.

[cali]

https://youtu.be/VSk7QS2xfwg

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[Francis44]

https://youtu.be/xv6ZF1LMhFY

I know its their first attempt but it is kind of embarrassing, lots to be done if this is going to be something in the future.

[Mirek]

To stay on topic, the vid is sped up and crap. Impossible to say anything about the car.

You can say that it has no sound :D

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/fia-pomo-uskoo-hybriditeknologian-houkuttelevan-lisaa-valmistajia-rallin-mm-sarjaan-on-vahvaa-halua-ja-mielenkiintoa/

Matton believes hybrids will add interest for new manufacturers. He also says that the "R5+" wouldn't be a good choice as a top class, there needs to be some new energy sources involved to ensure the future of the sport.

Original source is Motorsport Aktuell magazine

[Rally Power]

In another thread Rally Power (and Cali) suggested writing about my thoughts on the rally future, which I, out of respect, will do, but following the discussion so far, I think pretty much every topic has been covered well.

• Spaceframe chassis – knowing how things have developed in other forms of motorsport, I won’t be surprised if FIA (as already suggested in this thread) introduce a single make spaceframe assembly supplied to each manufacturer for them to add their own mechanical components and bodywork. Will it be a chipper way for existing manufacturers to go rallying and facilitate new ones to enter in - most likely. Am I fun of this solution – no, but if it allows rallying to survive, I am not going to be against it. Other series have gone through a similar process (i.e. Nascar moving from stock chassis to spaceframe long time ago and DTM with single type survival cell), so it is difficult to argue.
• Propulsion system type – I am an older generation, so the internal combustion engine is engrained in my DNA, though as an engineer, I can’t fail to see the advantages of the electric motor as a propulsion system (obviously the energy source for these is not yet there). My fear is that neither (or combination there off) of these is a satisfactory solution one way or another, as pointed out in various posts here. The potential and hypothetical new generation of spectators that would be interested in electric power is not tremendously concerned with motorsport in general, while the older one like me, with the internal combustion engine in mind, do not represent a segment of the population that the manufacturers much care about. Some form of hybrid may temporarily satisfy the current manufacturers but, as pointed by others, even this is becoming quickly outdated in the automotive world. And we have to agree with Mirek, that rallying must be attractive from marketing point of view to the manufacturers in order to persuade them to splash the cash on rally cars.

All of the above means it will be very challenging for motorsport to survive in general. Interestingly somebody at work pointed out to the below (few months old now) link yesterday – even less reasons to be optimistic

https://www.thegwpf.com/net-zero-co2-emissions-by-2050-requires-a-new-nuclear-power-plant-every-day/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D83X9OGVsAEdDo5.jpg

Interestingly, I am of the opinion that the future of transportation will look like in the Minority Report film, with the automated city/motorway cars (in my opinion) being powered by rails embedded in the road with small batteries present to cover any stretches of unpowered roads, which leaves even less room for any marketing interest in rallying from whatever vehicle manufacturers are left out there.

On the positive side, historic motorsport will most likely thrive, at least for a while as the rich would be able to buy their way out of anything.


Great post NickRally; honestly I’m a bit more optimistic on motorsport future.

Btw, more than preparing for a future spec chassis, spaceframe option seems to be a way to guarantee that some manus can run the WRC without a suitable standard chassis; that could be MSport case in a couple of years as Ford already mentioned a full switch to SUVs; apparently Toyota and Hyundai aren’t making such radical plans.

On Rally Hybrids we can’t also predict if they’ll last a few years or a couple of decades; full EVs range and safety issues in Rally won’t be easy to solve. Besides, it’s too early to say that EVs global use is granteed; at some point taxpayers may start resisting political attempts to impose EVs at their (ours) expense.

Meanwhile, let’s hope 2022 Hybrid rules will be sensible enough to avoid WRC cost escalation, attracting more manus to the series. Fingers crossed!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport working on electric rally car:
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/134842/msport-working-on-electric-rally-car

[the sniper]

M-Sport working on electric rally car:
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/134842/msport-working-on-electric-rally-car

Still working on it? That story is from March last year.

[deephouse]

Yves Matton told that FIA wants North America (most likely Canada) and China on WRC calendar and that they established work group to help them organize events in the future. These two markets are very important for all manufacturers involved in WRC.

[Rallyper]

Yves Matton told that FIA wants North America (most likely Canada) and China on WRC calendar and that they established work group to help them organize events in the future. These two markets are very important for all manufacturers involved in WRC.

Sounds reasonable.

However the quality of a WRC rally is another aspect...

[AndyRAC]

Yves Matton told that FIA wants North America (most likely Canada) and China on WRC calendar and that they established work group to help them organize events in the future. These two markets are very important for all manufacturers involved in WRC.

Yes, indeed; however, is there a decent sized fanbase in those countries? Not great if the WRC goes, and very few spectators/ media are bothered. It's all well and good wanting to go to these countries; remember about 10 years ago - we were told the BRIC countries were a priority.....

[EstWRC]

Pirelli wins tyre tender to supply WRC top tier and R5s from 2021


Pirelli has been selected as the control tyre supplier to the World Rally Championship from 2021, ending Michelin's strong run at the top level of the WRC.

The Italian tyre firm, which has been involved in the WRC since the start in 1973, will deliver all tyres used by Rally1 (World Rally Cars) and Rally2 cars (R5 class) for a four-year term starting in 2021 until the end of 2024.

Pirelli already supplies junior categories in the World and European Rally Championships and recently signed a four-year extension to its Formula 1 agreement.

MRF, Hankook and the current supplier to World Rally Car teams, Michelin, were all understood to have tendered and made it through the final four in the process.

Pirelli tyres were used by Citroen and Ford in 2010 - helping Sebastien Loeb to the title that year, but announced it was leaving the WRC at the end of that season.

Michelin has supplied most works teams since, although Pirelli have often supplied privateers.

Since the current rules package came in for 2017, all the major manufacturers - Citroen, Hyundai, M-Sport and Toyota - have used Michelins.



Pirelli has enjoyed recent success in the WRC's support categories including winning the WRC 2 class at Wales Rally GB, where 2002 WRC champion Petter Solberg was victorious using Pirellis on his Volkswagen Polo R5 (pictured below).

The World Motor Sport Council conducted an e-vote on the decision earlier this week, with the decision coming on Friday afternoon.

FIA rally director Yves Matton said: "This is an exciting new phase in the development of the World Rally Championship and we are happy to announce Pirelli as our exclusive single tyre supplier for a period of four years from 2021.

"I am convinced Pirelli will bring a wealth of experience to the program."

The 2021-2024 period will be Pirelli's second stint as a control tyre supplier to the WRC, having done the same from 2008 to 2010.

The Pirelli Star Driver programme was one of the highlights of the firm's investment in WRC during that time, with current world champion Ott Tanak, Rally Argentina winner Hayden Paddon and Hyundai driver Craig Breen among the highest profile graduates of that scheme.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147696/pirelli-wins-tyre-tender-to-supply-wrc-from-2021

[T16]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147699/wrc-cars-will-get-hybrid-boost-on-stages-from-2022

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Interesting stat from F1 and its emissions:

"Of the 256,551 tonnes of carbon that F1 says it emitted as a sport in 2018, only 0.7% was from the cars themselves.

By far the largest proportions were from logistics, in terms of road, air and sea freight, at 45%, and personnel travel at 27.7%."

It follows that WRCar emissions must also be pretty low as a percentage of the WRC total.

As the Teams are based in Europe the best thing WRC could do to help the planet would be only to compete there. But instead the WRC want to expand around the world with the inevitable increase in CO2 from the logistics...

[Mirek]

Logistics is generally the main reason why we have the problems with CO2 emissions. Far majority of goods being transported all over the Globe doesn't need to be transported anywhere because it can be locally produced. But hey, we have capitalism and the business numbers must grow and grow and grow because...

[AnttiL]

Interesting stat from F1 and its emissions:

"Of the 256,551 tonnes of carbon that F1 says it emitted as a sport in 2018, only 0.7% was from the cars themselves.

By far the largest proportions were from logistics, in terms of road, air and sea freight, at 45%, and personnel travel at 27.7%."

It follows that WRCar emissions must also be pretty low as a percentage of the WRC total.

As the Teams are based in Europe the best thing WRC could do to help the planet would be only to compete there. But instead the WRC want to expand around the world with the inevitable increase in CO2 from the logistics...

That's an interesting stat. The 2018 F1 season had 21 rounds, 11 of them outside Europe (I count Russian GP as European). In WRC for example in 2020 there would have been originally 7 European rallies from 14, but Chile was cancelled (it would have been neatly paired with Argentina).

WRC teams have two sets of service park equipment, one is for European events and the other for long-hauls. Only the rally cars and personnel are flown in, the big gear travels by land and sea. Do the F1 teams have the same?

An F1 race is roughly the same length as a WRC rally, 300 km, but rally drivers also drive about 1000 km of liaisons and hundreds of kilometres of recce while F1 drivers have qualifications (I don't know enough about F1 to know how much they drive during the weekend).

Again, I'm no expert but I would claim that F1 cars are more aerodynamic and involve less starting and stopping and wheelspin than rally cars, so they're more efficient in transforming the power from the engine into the speed they do.

It's true that the best way WRC could reduce its emissions would be to cut the longhauls. Also, having a smaller number of races, even if they were longer ones, would help, but this is not easy to organize.

[Mirek]

Again, I'm no expert but I would claim that F1 cars are more aerodynamic and involve less starting and stopping and wheelspin than rally cars, so they're more efficient in transforming the power from the engine into the speed they do.

But they deliver way higher power.

[Rallyper]

Whatever if F1 means 0,7% and WRC vars is doubled to 1,5%...

[Norm75]

But they deliver way higher power.

Yep, a little bit like comparing apples to oranges, also question what difference when you add in the fanbase, f1 being tragically more popular than wrc, surely will see many more people take to the skies and travelling oversees to watch races than wrc fans, which should be taken into account of the carbon footprint of the sport.

[Franky]

WRC teams have two sets of service park equipment, one is for European events and the other for long-hauls. Only the rally cars and personnel are flown in, the big gear travels by land and sea. Do the F1 teams have the same?


This video should give most answers to F1 logistics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH6Loko0BOA

Apparently there are five different sets that they send out by sea.

[Mirek]

Yep, a little bit like comparing apples to oranges, also question what difference when you add in the fanbase, f1 being tragically more popular than wrc, surely will see many more people take to the skies and travelling oversees to watch races than wrc fans, which should be taken into account of the carbon footprint of the sport.

Why not to blame the medieval sites here in Prague as well? There are many more people flying because of them than to the all F1 races combined.

[Norm75]

Why not to blame the medieval sites here in Prague as well? There are many more people flying because of them than to the all F1 races combined.
Do you miss my point Mirek?
I am only pointing out that F1 fans are probably more harmful to the environment than WRC fans as that is what the topic was about. I am not an eco warrior!

[Mirek]

Do you miss my point Mirek?
I am only pointing out that F1 fans are probably more harmful to the environment than WRC fans as that is what the topic was about. I am not an eco warrior!

That was not against you, sorry. I meant it as a general lamentation about a meaning of such discussion in the overall picture. Basically anything which attracts people creates some carbon footprint but while we are talking about marginal causes we completely avoid to talk about the major causes - overpopulation and overtransporting of goods in the hunt for profit. Nobody wants to hear that nothing will get better as long as the population will continue to grow.

[BigWorm]

That's an interesting stat. The 2018 F1 season had 21 rounds, 11 of them outside Europe (I count Russian GP as European). In WRC for example in 2020 there would have been originally 7 European rallies from 14, but Chile was cancelled (it would have been neatly paired with Argentina).

WRC teams have two sets of service park equipment, one is for European events and the other for long-hauls. Only the rally cars and personnel are flown in, the big gear travels by land and sea. Do the F1 teams have the same?

An F1 race is roughly the same length as a WRC rally, 300 km, but rally drivers also drive about 1000 km of liaisons and hundreds of kilometres of recce while F1 drivers have qualifications (I don't know enough about F1 to know how much they drive during the weekend).

Again, I'm no expert but I would claim that F1 cars are more aerodynamic and involve less starting and stopping and wheelspin than rally cars, so they're more efficient in transforming the power from the engine into the speed they do.

It's true that the best way WRC could reduce its emissions would be to cut the longhauls. Also, having a smaller number of races, even if they were longer ones, would help, but this is not easy to organize.

With free practice and qualifying in F1 they often rack up 100 laps before race start, so they will at least cover 2 times the race distance (race included).

I agree with liasion's being quite long, at least the rally cars have road mode. Liasion's should still be optimized, wasn't it one rally where if they changed the order of the stages a new, better, transport route could be used?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I also read that F1 cars are pretty efficient, converting 50% of fuel to power compared to 30% in a petrol road car.

Wonder what a WRC car does ? I know that the MPG in stage mode is very low.

[Mirek]

That is given mainly by the nature of the use. You don't drive the F1 car on 10% of power for 90% of time. If you do that it will be very inefficient because it is tuned to be fuel effective close to the peak power (unlike stock engines). You can't really compare that.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Yves Matton spoke on the WRC future at ASI.

from around 6:15.0 in:
https://youtu.be/kUB4mmHeLwE

[tomhlord]

Yves Matton spoke on the WRC future at ASI.

from around 6:15.0 in:
https://youtu.be/kUB4mmHeLwE

Interesting watch. In particular, about the cost of hybrid WRC cars and privateers. I hope he is able to deliver a car that is under €1 million.

[deephouse]

He basically says there will not be any new manufacturer in 2022, because whichever they are discussing with don't have facilities or organization yet. He mentions that Hyundai could do it in two years and it's not impossible. But I have a feeling that they are just dreaming of having more of it without any real interest show even if hybrid really happens.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The earlier interview with MSport's bosses was also interesting - as well as the car cost worries, it was also their concern that whatever direction is chosen the new cars could already be 'out of fashion' by the time they are introduced.

Its certain that the correct direction of engine/fuel will be crucial to the future of WRC.