WRC future

[AndyRAC]

Hybrids in top level motorsport are hardly new; WEC & F1 have had them for approx 7-8 years - the WRC still can't decide on them. There comes a point when the costs/ benefits is evaluated and they have to say yes or no. Just how many manufacturers can afford a hybrid WRC car?
In my view, not enough for a sustainable series.

[Sulland]

Good inteview with Mr Matton on ASI.

FIA are working strategically, and things take time. But they are in my opinion moving in the right direction


Cost of WRC is to high, so there are too few cars competing. FIA would like to see the old mix of Works teams, Privat teams and some gentlemen drivers. Good to see! They see that cost have spiralled, and next gen hybrid cars will not be more but rather less expensive than today.
They have the new rally pyramid in place, from Rally 1 to rally 5.

He have great expectations for the new Rally 3, and manufacturers are working on details with FIA and will make cars for 2021
Matton have said before that Rally 2 Kit needs more work to get cost btw rally 2 and rally 2 Kit cars larger.
FIA are worried about recruitment into the sport from new young drivers, and are putting in place more programs to make it easier and sponsors in place.
New WRC 2 and WRC 3 classes will clarify better for the fans ans sponsors manu supported teams and privat teams using R5/Rally 2 cars.




To me it seems FIA have seen where work needs to be done, and most important issues are making progress.

[rallyfiend]

Good inteview with Mr Matton on ASI.

FIA are working strategically, and things take time. But they are in my opinion moving in the right direction


Cost of WRC is to high, so there are too few cars competing. FIA would like to see the old mix of Works teams, Privat teams and some gentlemen drivers. Good to see! They see that cost have spiralled, and next gen hybrid cars will not be more but rather less expensive than today.
They have the new rally pyramid in place, from Rally 1 to rally 5.

He have great expectations for the new Rally 3, and manufacturers are working on details with FIA and will make cars for 2021
Matton have said before that Rally 2 Kit needs more work to get cost btw rally 2 and rally 2 Kit cars larger.
FIA are worried about recruitment into the sport from new young drivers, and are putting in place more programs to make it easier and sponsors in place.
New WRC 2 and WRC 3 classes will clarify better for the fans ans sponsors manu supported teams and privat teams using R5/Rally 2 cars.




To me it seems FIA have seen where work needs to be done, and most important issues are making progress.

I don't beleive for a second that the new Hybrid cars can be cheaper than the current generation cars.

I believe Malcolm Wilson more than I do Yves Matton.

[GigiGalliNo1]

With these liveries... what future does the WRC really have? M-Sport is ok... TGR... pass. Hyundai? It'll be the same!

[EstWRC]

it really is indeed the biggest problem we have.

[RS]

He basically says there will not be any new manufacturer in 2022, because whichever they are discussing with don't have facilities or organization yet. He mentions that Hyundai could do it in two years and it's not impossible. But I have a feeling that they are just dreaming of having more of it without any real interest show even if hybrid really happens.

So no Skoda then..

[deephouse]

I don't know. All I've been reading is just from Subaru and that just only an rumours. Skoda even end their works team program and only support some drivers with R5 machines.

From early interviews Matton was pretty sure that some manufacturers will be there then,. Now he claims that with new regs 50% more manufacturers could enter chapionship. That's not interest from them, it's just wishes.

I think at the start of 2019 or it was 2018 there were post from FIA that the new manufacturer will be at the start of Monte. But we never saw anything new. VW start only few outings and never really competed in any championship since their withdrawal in 2016.

MEM (Mellors Motorsport) are loud every year how they will enter in WRC2 but they develop that Iriz for some long now that the car will actually be too old for new ones, which are believed will come soon (upgraded i20, possible Yaris, rumoured 208,...)

I don't know. I wish there was more of them even in main category, but the problem is there is not enough 1st class drivers. And if Ogier really retires the number will be reduced to two (I don't count Latvala and Meeke anymore because their careers are practicaly over). How could manufacturer really show that they are competitive for wins or titles when there are no one who could bring them that. Maybe new WRC talent ladder will help bring real talents to the top, we will see.

[GigiGalliNo1]

it really is indeed the biggest problem we have.

:D

[Duvel]

I don't know. I wish there was more of them even in main category, but the problem is there is not enough 1st class drivers. And if Ogier really retires the number will be reduced to two (I don't count Latvala and Meeke anymore because their careers are practicaly over). How could manufacturer really show that they are competitive for wins or titles when there are no one who could bring them that. Maybe new WRC talent ladder will help bring real talents to the top, we will see.[/QUOTE]

My hopes are on Kalle and Oliver.. Maybe only in 2 or 3 years, but I think we wil see real race winning speed from them soon. That's when they step into the wrc class I mean.

[Duvel]

Fia should create a reg whit current wrc cars whit standard hybrid kit. If hybrid would AL be the same, and delivered by one external producer, that would help keeping costs down.

[AnttiL]

Fia should create a reg whit current wrc cars whit standard hybrid kit. If hybrid would AL be the same, and delivered by one external producer, that would help keeping costs down.

...that’s what they’re planning?

[rallyfiend]

Fia should create a reg whit current wrc cars whit standard hybrid kit. If hybrid would AL be the same, and delivered by one external producer, that would help keeping costs down.

There is already a tender out for this supply. It’s on their website

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's actually going to be a big job even for the current Manus/Teams.

They will have to design, build and test these brand new hybrid cars, while still running and developing the current WRC cars to try to win in 2020 & 2021.

I worry especially about M-Sport in this unless Ford give them a lot of help.

[Mirek]

That's no different to any rule change in the past. Take it from the other side, it gives everyone a new zero starting point which is always a good thing.

[T16]

It's actually going to be a big job even for the current Manus/Teams.

They will have to design, build and test these brand new hybrid cars, while still running and developing the current WRC cars to try to win in 2020 & 2021.

I worry especially about M-Sport in this unless Ford give them a lot of help.

What else is changing in the cars apart from the new system? Surely it will be an easier development and testing process than the jump from 2016-2017 cars?

[Mirek]

What else is changing in the cars apart from the new system? Surely it will be an easier development and testing process than the jump from 2016-2017 cars?

Eveyrthing if it still applies that the new cars will be spaceframe-based prorotypes.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That's no different to any rule change in the past. Take it from the other side, it gives everyone a new zero starting point which is always a good thing.

'Rule-change' is putting it mildly when switching to hybrid...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Eveyrthing if it still applies that the new cars will be spaceframe-based prorotypes.

Exactly.... its not just the changing the propulsion system of the current cars. The costs are another unknown too, both of the cars themselves and their development.

And all while running the current ICE cars.

[Mirek]

It's no drama, Freddie. It's a rule change like many others. Intergrating a hybrid system into a spaceframe prototype is for sure easier than into a stock bodyshell. The spaceframe doesn't make things harder but easier.

[T16]

Exactly.... its not just the changing the propulsion system of the current cars. The costs are another unknown too, both of the cars themselves and their development.

And all while running the current ICE cars.

Ah, ok.. I thought they were using most of the current cars with a new system, didn't know the space framed idea was signed off.

[Mirek]

Why do you think that integrating the hybrid system into the current cars would be easier? IMHO not at all.

[T16]

Why do you think that integrating the hybrid system into the current cars would be easier? IMHO not at all.

I thought it would be cheaper than designing a new car, not necessarily easier.
For what it’s worth, I still think they have a hell of a lot of soul searching to do before they take the plunge and set the regs, both in terms of what makes the championship attractive from a fan and manufacturer point of view. They are in a bit of a grey area in terms of being late to the hybrid party and with the manufacturers moving road vehicle technology at such a pace, I’m not so certain that hybrid (and especially given the cost of a car being rumoured at 1 million) will entice the current manufactures to sign up, never mind new ones joining the party.
From a fans point of view, I’m also a little concerned that the championship is becoming very repetitive in terms of what each rally offers... same format, not really much variety, apart from surface differences. I guess that’s one reason why the Monte stands out as a little bit different to the rest.

[AndyRAC]

Well, we're told the WRC is an attractive proposition for manufacturers - the proof of that will be in which ones sign up for whatever regs are decided, whenever that is.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's no drama, Freddie. It's a rule change like many others. Intergrating a hybrid system into a spaceframe prototype is for sure easier than into a stock bodyshell. The spaceframe doesn't make things harder but easier.

When the 2017 change happened it took the teams a good while to get their new cars sorted and reliable. And they were similar to the previous spec (but more aero, power & active diffs). Some like Citroen didnt ever get their car fully-sorted in 3 years.

Imagine adding the hybrid systems on top of that and a brand new chassis to be sorted.

But it'll be no drama... really ?

[Mirek]

Eddie, starting from zero is a good thing for the sport not a bad one! It means that everyone stands on the same starting point and can't take much from the previous advantage it gained through the years. The fact everyone needs to bring new ideas and new strategies is what makes it exciting and much less predictable.

As we've seen in the past the first few years after a change in the rules are the best. Only when one or two teams start to gain large advantage over the others it starts to fade until the point where a new change of rules is introduced to make it interesting again.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/rally/1-million-euro-wrc-hybrid-cars-too-expensive-says-malcolm-wilson

[T16]

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/rally/1-million-euro-wrc-hybrid-cars-too-expensive-says-malcolm-wilson

This will gain traction. I honestly think they need to regroup and come up with a better plan.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Eddie, starting from zero is a good thing for the sport not a bad one! It means that everyone stands on the same starting point and can't take much from the previous advantage it gained through the years. The fact everyone needs to bring new ideas and new strategies is what makes it exciting and much less predictable.

As we've seen in the past the first few years after a change in the rules are the best. Only when one or two teams start to gain large advantage over the others it starts to fade until the point where a new change of rules is introduced to make it interesting again.

This isnt about the point I was making.

It was about the huge work the Manu's/Teams will have to do, and the higher costs, all while still running and developing the current cars.

You seem to think it will all be plain sailing. I dont.

[Mirek]

Every change of rules, which brings new cars, means a huge work. But this huge work gives a huge opportunity. Much bigger than at the start of a season in a continuous era where everything is limited by the jokers. As you sure agree the most important in the sport is to succeed and a change of rules gives that chance to those who were not successful before.

That's why usually new manufacturers join at the first two seasons of an era and not later when the advantage of those already in the circus is too big. On the other hand if FIA changes the rules without attracting any new manufacturers than it's for sure sad but in the current automotive world it may be the reality.

That hybrids will be expensive is another thing and a thing which was clear from the very beginning.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Gerard Quinn @WRCgerardquinn quotes on the costs of hybrids:

This is not sustainable. €6M - €12M development costs.

The technology being proposed is not even relevant to the products manufacturers will sell so it may not even be an attractive proposition to support commercially for most OEM's.


Think beyond spaceframe development. Transmission, engine, electric motor, tyre testing programmes alone for a start to develop performance and reliability. Current car estimated initial dev cost min €6M+ so the math is pretty simple when you base it on that.


Rally has always been accessible. Teams/manufacturers come and go depending on financial commitments. An affordable proposition is what gives the sport a longer-term lifeline. WRC is coming close to being cost prohibitive for most to consider in the future.

[Oops!]

And here's something else to think about.... Despite Malcolm's whinging every year he has the WRC/FIA over a barrel for a long time now and he knows it... Msport is not running at a loss... R5 cars are certainly not capped at 190,000 Euros/£160,000... Anybody that has ordered the latest one will tell you that. Ladder of opportunity? That's a good one.... Wilson certainly isn't worried about the "sport".... He's right about one thing though, the top level cars need to be closer to R5 spec, not a space framed hybrid....

[T16]

And here's something else to think about.... Despite Malcolm's whinging every year he has the WRC/FIA over a barrel for a long time now and he knows it... Msport is not running at a loss... R5 cars are certainly not capped at 190,000 Euros/£160,000... Anybody that has ordered the latest one will tell you that. Ladder of opportunity? That's a good one.... Wilson certainly isn't worried about the "sport".... He's right about one thing though, the top level cars need to be closer to R5 spec, not a space framed hybrid....

Do you not think he may have a point about the WRC cars becoming more expensive, regardless of the fantastic (R5 and other cars) business model he’s created and should be commended for?

[Oops!]

Read the last line of my post again..... I doubt he's worried if he's patted on the back or not...

[T16]

Read the last line of my post again..... I doubt he's worried if he's patted on the back or not...

Patted on the back?

[Mirek]

He's right about one thing though, the top level cars need to be closer to R5 spec, not a space framed hybrid....

No, the spaceframe is necessary because it opens the door to every single manufacturer in the world. Cars based on production model mean that less and less manufacturers can join even if they wanted.

The spaceframe is not what makes it expensive. Look at the Dakar, there are loads of spaceframe-based cars and most of them are privately-built. It's no rocket science.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's a good job M-Sport do make money on their R5 as the sales of 2017-spec WRC's have been just five cars in 3 years...

[Sulland]

If the plan is as Mr Matton says, to keep the total output for the new WRCar at aprox the same level as today, and that is ca 400.

One way is to use an R5 engine as the petrol part, and that is aprox 300, you need the hybrid part to be 100 hp.
Then you keep cost lower for the petrol engine, and have to add 100 hybrid horses.

What other ways can you get cost down, so you can get privateers into the Rally 1 class, that also is FIAs aim for the future?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Isnt a big part of the current cars extra costs compared to an R5 down to all the aero - both testing it and the parts themselves ?

Remember Ostberg begging for his Fiesta rear spoiler to be returned...

[AnttiL]

Isnt a big part of the current cars extra costs compared to an R5 down to all the aero - both testing it and the parts themselves ?


Aero is expensive, but the rear wing or front bumper on an R5 car isn't free either.

The price cap itself is most important in R5. When you have to sell the car at a certain price you don't want to put too expensive parts in it.

[RS]

If the plan is as Mr Matton says, to keep the total output for the new WRCar at aprox the same level as today, and that is ca 400.

One way is to use an R5 engine as the petrol part, and that is aprox 300, you need the hybrid part to be 100 hp.
Then you keep cost lower for the petrol engine, and have to add 100 hybrid horses.

What other ways can you get cost down, so you can get privateers into the Rally 1 class, that also is FIAs aim for the future?

They're talking about 100KW for the electric part which is about 140BHP.

[giu canbera]

what u guys think these 2022 "tubeframe cars" will look like?

[AnttiL]

what u guys think these 2022 "tubeframe cars" will look like?

On the outside, not so different from the current ones.

[dimviii]

“These high voltage electric systems, from a safety point of view they can give big challenges. You have to control the people in the stages where they can touch the cars. We have to consider the logistic matters of transporting the high voltage items. It is very difficult and expensive compared to the current system,” Tommi Makkinen from Toyota Gazoo Rally Team said.

http://www.racerviews.com/2020/02/07/the-2020s-for-the-wrc-part-1-the-challenges-of-the-car/

[deephouse]

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/crunch-time-in-2022-wrc-engine-rules-deadlock/

worrying??

[Eli]

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/crunch-time-in-2022-wrc-engine-rules-deadlock/

worrying??

It's still hard for me to see how will they take the cost down to half a million euros with the hybrid system when the last generation cars cost the same and they were very 'back to basics' approach.... Imho it is worrying..hopefully they'll find the best solutions...

[deephouse]

It's worrying because they predict one more manu get out because of that.. instead getting in...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Todt interview on the 2022 cars:

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2022-rules-everything-you-need-to-know

[AnttiL]

Todt interview on the 2022 cars:

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2022-rules-everything-you-need-to-know

Matton

[er88]

If they are making the cars so much cheaper (or plan too), is it really realistic to expect performance to be the same as the current spec cars like they are aiming for?

[AnttiL]

If they are making the cars so much cheaper (or plan too), is it really realistic to expect performance to be the same as the current spec cars like they are aiming for?

More difficult to drive, less options for development and setup. Also the tuned up R5 engine could mean more engine failures.

[tommeke_B]

Reading the article it sounds very clever. Indeed the development costs of rollcage/safety, fuel tank are things that could be interesting to share, as there's no competition advantage to be found with it anyway. Limiting the aero options to make them less vulnerable would be interesting too. On every rally I've been, at the end of the loop, pretty much all cars have some parts that are destroyed or missing. It's expensive for the teams and not very interesting from a marketing perspective either.

His view on the dampers is quite interesting too. During the last 15 years there's been a massive development, current cars have a huge suspension travel, dampers are mounted on weird angles that seem to work. It costs a lot of money/experience to get the knowledge about it, maybe it's even one of the biggest barriers from getting new teams to play along. Fact is also that with current suspension travel they can put their wheels nearly everywhere and destroy the roads and surroundings a lot more than they used to in the past.

[mknight]

Examples how to make the car cheap and as fast:
- large aero size allowed (for example for rear wing) but less parts/sections
- more power (restrictor, electric engine acting like ALS...)

Anyway I like that Matton talks about reducing number of available parts. That's something I mentioned at the end of 2018 when it was revealed that Hyundai had 50!! sets of dampers to choose from while poor VW before only had 20! It's not only how much they cost, but most of all how much it costs to test and find the "best" choice for every rally/section/stage.

[Rally Power]

It's still hard for me to see how will they take the cost down to half a million euros with the hybrid system when the last generation cars cost the same and they were very 'back to basics' approach....

Spot on. At the time it was told that post-2011 cars (1.6T first gen) were costing around 500k. It’s true that they already used the expensive Global Race Engine, but they didn’t had active central diff, ’17 aero kit, paddle shift and a ‘who knows how much it’ll cost’ hybrid system.

So, besides the R5 engine, is the FIA planning to use the whole R5 package as the basis for ’22 cars? And what about this universal roll-cage; is it just a different name for the subframe chassis?

Lot’s of doubts and apparently only one thing seems sure: manus are splited on the new rules and the FIA is not able to get a consensus. Probably it won’t be a surprise to see 2022 cars only ready in 2023...

[tommeke_B]

Spot on. At the time it was told that post-2011 cars (1.6T first gen) were costing around 500k.
I was once lucky enough to go to M-Sport with a team (NCRS) to pick one up, in 2013. It was an ex-Novikov car (shell 17) that was completely rebuilt and updated to the latest spec available at that time. If I remember correctly it was roughly 400k including a large spare parts package. What made the cars so expensive compared to R5 was the running cost (revision/replacement of parts).

[Rally Power]

In 2014 it was made public that a new one was costing around £400k (at the time +/- €500k) https://www.wrc.com/en/news/news-archive/wrc/hirvonen-blaze-costs-m-sport---400-000/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I wonder if current and new Teams will be happy with so many standard parts to save costs. It wont give them so much chance to prove their superiority.

But Matton says they cant cap the costs though and it would be very hard to police anyway.

I see big problems ahead.

[giu canbera]

why not to use R5 as the top class (that would bring way more entries than the current 8-10, right?. Like, in a heartbeat) and go for synthetic fuel instead of hybrids? I mean, the real $$ is with petrol companies... and they WANT to look "more clean and green". Why not to go after this for 2022? R5 with synthetic fuel...

[Tarmop]

It is synthetic fuels for a long time already...and why use or not use R5s has also been discussed here more than enough.:D

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/rallin-mm-sarjan-kulisseissa-kytee-tommi-makiselta-suorat-sanat-kilpailijatiimien-suunnitelmista-ei-millaan-muotoa-realismia/

Mäkinen commenting on the 2022 rules as well as Hyundai and M-Sport wanting to use the R5 engine. He says (the same I've been saying) that if you put the top drivers going flat out in R5 cars, wheels will fly off. If you take the center diff off (like Hyundai and M-Sport want (!!!)), you start seeing more driveshaft failures, and if you use the R5 engine, it's cheaper, but you break so many of them that the cost is almost the same in the end (he says 30 000 cheaper per season with R5 engines).

Mäkinen concludes by saying it's not easy and hopes it will not end like with WRX.

[masa90]

Yes but part of being a good driver is to now when to push. Of course modern cars are tougher and more exciting to watch but not like these guys can't get R5 to finish cmon.

[AnttiL]

Yes but part of being a good driver is to now when to push. Of course modern cars are tougher and more exciting to watch but not like these guys can't get R5 to finish cmon.

Of course. But it would change the nature of the competition.

[wyler]

you see top line driver using r5 in regional events and the car usually reach the finish line pretty well...

[AnttiL]

you see top line driver using r5 in regional events and the car usually reach the finish line pretty well...

With less kilometres and most likely less level of competition.

[deephouse]

Some WRC drivers did drive on wrc scale format before with R5 cars.. I mean it's each teams frickin' job to make it better. Isn't it?? He is concerned because he doesn't have a car yet and other two have it already for a quite some time now. Or he is afraid that if he did actualy build an R5 car it would be fragile as f***. These are race cars and most of the manufacturers who build that type of car is building them for a customers so the product needs to be excelent, otherwise they will go to the rivals which have better package.. Simple a that. Makinen needs to stop blaberring nonsenses. Just because he have unlimited money from Akio doesn't mean that every team have it. I'm worried about M-Sport not Hyundai. M-Sport could actually leave whole thing if the right solution will not be brought up.

[AnttiL]

Some WRC drivers did drive on wrc scale format before with R5 cars..

Many of these drivers who have taken the step from R5 to WRC have been surprised at how much more pace you need to stay up with the top drivers.

[mknight]

https://www.rallit.fi/rallin-mm-sarjan-kulisseissa-kytee-tommi-makiselta-suorat-sanat-kilpailijatiimien-suunnitelmista-ei-millaan-muotoa-realismia/.... If you take the center diff off (like Hyundai and M-Sport want (!!!)), you start seeing more driveshaft failures...

My Google translate of the same article says that MSport and Hyundai want to remove the centre diff and reinforce the driveshafts at the same time.

The whole thing sounds like a big rant where he wants to keep everything the same as is now and just add hybrid tech. That might be good idea for him with probably the highest budget and currently the fastest car, but it's not difficult to see that others want changes.

I'd say that the number of manus in WRC (2!!!) speaks for itself about how sustainable current rules are. Furthermore MSport has been building rallycars since forever and has also been focused on costs for quite many years. Somehow I rather trust them on cost-saving ideas.

[pantealex]

Most of you don´t understand that HYBRID needs power source (battery) which weights a lot.

For 50km range several hundred kilos.

That extra weight will break current Rally2 cars...

[JAM]

Andrea Adamo said last saturday that the deal for cheaper WRC's is done:

http://sportmotores.com/portal/sportmotores_go_noticia?id=56613

[wyler]

With less kilometres and most likely less level of competition.

not really. take wrc2/3 we had we have ostberg, camilli, greensmith, we had rovampera. not far from top level, same km as wrc.
of course, car will be revised, not stay the same. but clearly is feasible without much drama.
also is pretty understandable that every manager tries to plead for their benefit. toyota is the only one without such spec car -even if they r to be revised- but especially such an engine. remember the battle over dismissal of gre?
point is this single manu benefit is not beneficial as well to wrc development in general. at least at this particular moment.

[AnttiL]

not really. take wrc2/3 we had we have ostberg, camilli, greensmith, we had rovampera. not far from top level, same km as wrc.

Now check how often Østberg's R5 rallies failed last year from technical faults. My point is that the competition in WRC2 is not as tough as in main WRC. You can drive easier and expect to get a podium position. If you do that with main WRC, you will fall too far behind, because the cars are more durable and the level of pace higher.

[wyler]

Now check how often Østberg's R5 rallies failed last year from technical faults. My point is that the competition in WRC2 is not as tough as in main WRC. You can drive easier and expect to get a podium position. If you do that with main WRC, you will fall too far behind, because the cars are more durable and the level of pace higher.

you can check in opposition how often r5 got top10 and scored points, often beating lower tier driver on wrc. wrc suffer technical issues too, especially if driven recklessly. Those thing doesn't prove that upgraded r5s will fail, especially after upgrading. makinen is using a partial view, let's try to see the full picture. no one is saying they'll be same as wrc+, but they can do the job. point is: is it worth to downgrade a bit to reduce cost and favor participation? this can be vastly argued! : )

[deephouse]

There are multiple engineers at the each team. I'm pretty sure that they are well payed for their jobs. Isn't one of the Toyota's main one bragging how he manage to made an excelent car. What now, his job is done or what?

[denkimi]

Each car will break if you hit it hard enough.
And top drivers will try to push them to the point where it breaks. Put them all in fragile group n cars and after a short while they will break no more than a wrc car.

The stronger you make it, the harder they will hit things. Tommi is just spewing out bullshit because he needs the rules to stay as they are.

[RS]

Today’s WMSC news (nothing very concrete):

FIA World Rally Championship

Following approval of the main technical definition of the 2022 rules for Rally1 (formerly WRC) at the Council meeting of 4 December 2019, the FIA Rally and Technical departments in cooperation with the WRC manufacturers have continued to develop a series of regulations that will ensure the current spectacle, aesthetic appeal and sound are carried over to the new generation cars and will deliver exciting competition at an attainable level of investment for the teams. The intention is to reduce costs against the current vehicles while including sustainable hybrid technology and a system of scaling to allow manufacturers to adapt their rally car from different models.

The Council today approved the Technical Regulations for this new class, with final details of the engine regulations, hybrid technology and standard safety cell yet to be confirmed.

[mknight]

There are multiple engineers at the each team. I'm pretty sure that they are well payed for their jobs. Isn't one of the Toyota's main one bragging how he manage to made an excelent car. What now, his job is done or what?

Obviously his main interest would be to have as little changes to the car as possible. Hence Tommis comments on proposed rule changes.

[AnttiL]

Finally some decisions about Rally1 (formerly WRC) from 2022 onwards


Transmission:
4WD, five-speed transmission very similar in concept to the current Rally2 rules
Simple level type differential, no centre differential, only one kinematic drive train
A maximum of six transmission units per car per year permitted

Suspension:
Reduced wheel travel
Simplified dampers with reduced scope for homologation upgrades
Hubs, hub carriers and anti-roll bar designs will be simplified
Only one specification of wishbone mandated

Running gear:
Liquid brake cooling no longer allowed

Fuel tank:
Simplified shape

Aerodynamics:
Free volume bodywork area to enable aggressive design maintained
Aero effect from hidden ducts removed
Rear aerodynamic advice simplified

https://mailchi.mp/fia/jja3q9igfw-1470585

EDIT: There's also the first details of Rally3. 4WD car with 210 BHP and 100 000 euros cap price. For 2021 already.

[RS]

Nothing about the engine/hybrid system until later..

Sadly these cars will be named "Rally1s" and not WRCs, following the change from R5s to "Rally 2s"

[AnttiL]

Nothing about the engine/hybrid system until later..

Sadly these cars will be named "Rally1s" and not WRCs, following the change from R5s to "Rally 2s"

This was already known much earlier. Hopefully it will clarify the class system a bit. Now it's a bit messy.

[AnttiL]

With less suspension travel, less aero and no centre diff, the corner speeds should be lower. Also the cars would go more sideways and be more unstable at corners.

This could also result in some of the "too fast" Rally Finland stages like Ouninpohja to return onto the route.

[RS]

This was already known much earlier. Hopefully it will clarify the class system a bit. Now it's a bit messy.

True. I just don't like how it sounds.

[Mirek]

Finally some decisions about Rally1 (formerly WRC) from 2022 onwards

https://mailchi.mp/fia/jja3q9igfw-1470585

EDIT: There's also the first details of Rally3. 4WD car with 210 BHP and 100 000 euros cap price. For 2021 already.

It's another step towards rallying being a sort of horse racing of the future. The cars become to be ridiculously obsolete in many major areas compared to the recent research and development level. In fact that has been the case for many years already (with a partial exception in the latest generation of the cars).

I am not saying it's wrong way in our times but it's nothing similar to what the sport used to be in the past (let's say till the end of gr.B era at least but partially also in the first WRC decade).

[mknight]

Horse racing would be mandatory NA RWD cars... which is what some people still call the only "real" rallying.

As a side note F1 ("the pinacle of motorsport") forbade active aero pretty much immediatelly after it came in the 80s and also forbade active suspension after only a few years in 1994. Active aero is now standard on most supercars and active suspension is available down to some mid-class cars while both are still forbidden in F1. (not counting push-button DRS)

In this summary it does seem like a lot of restrictions but I haven't seen any specific numbers yet, so we'll see how it comes out. Some restrictions compared to current situation are necessary for sure.

[Rallyper]

It's another step towards rallying being a sort of horse racing of the future. The cars become to be ridiculously obsolete in many major areas compared to the recent research and development level. In fact that has been the case for many years already (with a partial exception in the latest generation of the cars).

I am not saying it's wrong way in our times but it's nothing similar to what the sport used to be in the past (let's say till the end of gr.B era at least but partially also in the first WRC decade).

Mirek, tell me if the interest in world rallying went down, changing from Group B to Group a, in 1987?

(I was there, I know the answer...)

[Rally Power]

No doubt we’ll miss the current cars but with the huge investments in the industry (EV’s, automation, etc) it’s hard for the manus (apart Toyota, apparently) to keep spending millions on mega high tech WRC cars. Besides, with the FIA and the promoter determined to expand the calendar, there’s little room to bring overall costs down apart from changing the tech rules.

Hopefully, even if with less spectacular cars, the WRC will profit from this downgrade as with lower costs there’s a great opportunity to attract more manus. Fingers crossed.



Finally some decisions about Rally1 (formerly WRC) from 2022 onwards https://mailchi.mp/fia/jja3q9igfw-1470585

Thanks for sharing Antti. Besides the listed points, at the end of the piece Matton mentions again the use of a standardized safety cell; is he talking about the spaceframe chassis?

[pantealex]

so current WRC cars will be banned ?

or can someone stlll enter a rally with WRC car ?

[Mirek]

Mirek, tell me if the interest in world rallying went down, changing from Group B to Group a, in 1987?

(I was there, I know the answer...)

I was not aiming on the spectacle and the popularity in my post rather on the technical side where until reaching a certain braking point (the large number of deaths at the end of gr.B era namely) the sport was a mirror of the technical development level.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I'm sure I read that the Gp.A cars were soon faster on stage times than the Gp.B cars had been. Not so crazy like the 'Killer B's' but a lot more efficient.

[Sulland]

Sadly these cars will be named "Rally1s" and not WRCs, following the change from R5s to "Rally 2s"

In my opinion this namechange is logic, and mirrors the single seater naming convention.
Formula 1 is the top dog, and Rally1 is the same.

Formula 1, also called F1 for short, and in a few years Rally1 will be called R1. But for now (since FIA messed up some years ago, make WRC a trademark, but calling the top class cars the same) the top class car will go under the long title name, Rally1.

The Fia Rally Pyramid is at last logic in its naming convention for the car classes!

My bet: It will take a year or two before we all have gotten used to it, and we will not miss the old way of naming rally car classes!

[Mirek]

I'm sure I read that the Gp.A cars were soon faster on stage times than the Gp.B cars had been. Not so crazy like the 'Killer B's' but a lot more efficient.

That's natural because even when restricted the development goes on (mainly in the dampers and tyres). However the point is that the gr.B would make a step forward in the same time period as well - and most likely greater than gr.A cars thanks to the bigger freedom of the rules.

[AnttiL]

I would say Group A cars were faster than Group B cars by 1990. Even though they had put the 40mm turbo restrictor that year.

I'm expecting the 2022 cars to be closer to WRC2017 than WRC2011 in pace on the special stages.

[AnttiL]

Thanks for sharing Antti. Besides the listed points, at the end of the piece Matton mentions again the use of a standardized safety cell; is he talking about the spaceframe chassis?

This was mentioned earlier in another article. Basically it means that the rollcage will be the same for every car to cut costs and improve safety by making sure that every team has the best solutions. AFAIK they share safety things quite openly anyway.

[AnttiL]

so current WRC cars will be banned ?

or can someone stlll enter a rally with WRC car ?

Good question! I would guess they will be fitted with restrictors.

[Franky]

The Fia Rally Pyramid is at last logic in its naming convention for the car classes!

Don't worry, they'll come up with something new again in like 10 years.

[Sulland]

Don't worry, they'll come up with something new again in like 10 years.

:rotflmao:
:beer:

[doubled1978]

I would say Group A cars were faster than Group B cars by 1990. Even though they had put the 40mm turbo restrictor that year.

I'm expecting the 2022 cars to be closer to WRC2017 than WRC2011 in pace on the special stages.

I think I read somewhere that even by 1988 they were going faster than Group B in some stages, especially when the Integrale came out.
I often watch some YouTube of the 92-94 time, and those cars were very fast...sometimes suspiciously so.

[denkimi]

That's natural because even when restricted the development goes on (mainly in the dampers and tyres). However the point is that the gr.B would make a step forward in the same time period as well - and most likely greater than gr.A cars thanks to the bigger freedom of the rules.
the steps forward are different.

during the group b era, teams would put their money on making more powerful engines or bigger aero, since there were big improvements to find there.
that created very powerful but difficult to handle cars.
nowadays with much technical limits, gains are very small so teams put much money in creating cars with better drivability. there are no big inventions anymore, they will never find something that will give them 50 extra hp anymore, all cars are almost identical. so they go and test 50 different kinds of shocks to see which one will give them a 0,1% advantage.

and racing has never had much to do with the current technology. you don't see water injection, anti-lag, water cooled brakes, inverted shocks, sequential gearboxes, lsd, spoilers, ... on ordinary cars.
it's all about marketing. the racing car has to have the logo, and preferably some looks in common with the car people can buy at their dealer. nothing more

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I remember the Tour de Corse in 1987.

Ragnotti's FWD Renault 11 Turbo with a 1.4 engine and tiny turbo was settiing times within just 1sec/km of the mega-powerful Group B's the year before.

[OHL]

I remember the Tour de Corse in 1987.

Ragnotti's FWD Renault 11 Turbo with a 1.4 engine and tiny turbo was settiing times within just 1sec/km of the mega-powerful Group B's the year before.
On tarmac, sure. It's still the case today where a lighter, more nimble car can put up some really good times on tarmac. It all changes though with reduced grip.

[AnttiL]

I remember the Tour de Corse in 1987.

Ragnotti's FWD Renault 11 Turbo with a 1.4 engine and tiny turbo was settiing times within just 1sec/km of the mega-powerful Group B's the year before.

I could only find comparable times for a couple of stages. Most Corsica stages were changed because new regulations allowed them to be 30 km long at max. I don't have 1987 maps so I only assume they were similar.

1986 SS3 Petreto - Aullene 1 20.03 km Toivonen, Henri 12m 55s 93.04 km/h
1987 SS2 Petreto - Aullene 20.00 km Beguin, Bernard 13m 48s 86.96 km/h
Difference is 2.6 s/km

1986 SS6 Aullene - Zivaco 25.33 km Salonen, Timo 16m 19s 93.14 km/h
1987 SS5 Aullene - Zicavo 25.30 km Balesi, Claude 18m 43s 81.10 km/h
Difference is 6s/km (is there a mistake or rainy weather in 1987?)

1986 SS16 Moriani Plage - Orsoni 20.10 km Toivonen, Henri 14m 18s 84.34 km/h
1987 SS13 Moriani Piage - Orsoni 20.10 km Ragnotti, Jean 15m 05s 79.96 km/h

Difference is 2.3s/km

EDIT: Two more

1986 SS13 Sainte Florent - Col de San Stefano 26.81 km Saby, Bruno 19m 52s 80.97 km/h
1987 SS10 St Florent - Col San Stefano 26.80 km Ragnotti, Jean 20m 53s 77.00 km/h
Difference is 2.3s/km

1986 SS15 Folelli - Ste Lucie de Moriani 18.49 km Toivonen, Henri 14m 29s 76.60 km/h
1987 SS12 Folelli - Ste Lucie de Moriani 18.40 km Ragnotti, Jean 15m 08s 72.95 km/h
Difference is 2.1s/km

[Allez Andruet]

1986 SS6 Aullene - Zivaco 25.33 km Salonen, Timo 16m 19s 93.14 km/h
1987 SS5 Aullene - Zicavo 25.30 km Balesi, Claude 18m 43s 81.10 km/h
Difference is 6s/km (is there a mistake or rainy weather in 1987?)

Rain. It started to dry after the first cars and that's why the fastest time was eventually set by Claude Balesi on a Gp N Renault! A first for a Gp N car in WRC history btw.

[Mirek]

the steps forward are different.

during the group b era, teams would put their money on making more powerful engines or bigger aero, since there were big improvements to find there.
that created very powerful but difficult to handle cars.

No, that's not true. They made every changes which they saw as a step forward for having better stage times. Whatever they found to be an advantage (and allowed) they used. There were huge steps towards better handing such as placing the engine in-front of the rear axle as well. Audi insisting for long time on having the longitudinal I5 engine in-front of the front axle was a result of marketing decision going against the technical arguments. The tyre and suspension development was not sleeping either.


nowadays with much technical limits, gains are very small so teams put much money in creating cars with better drivability. there are no big inventions anymore, they will never find something that will give them 50 extra hp anymore, all cars are almost identical. so they go and test 50 different kinds of shocks to see which one will give them a 0,1% advantage.

That comes from the limits of the rules. When You limit the areas for the development all focus concentrates on them. That's normal.


and racing has never had much to do with the current technology. you don't see water injection, anti-lag, water cooled brakes, inverted shocks, sequential gearboxes, lsd, spoilers, ... on ordinary cars.

The racing used to be all about the current technology until the breaking point being possibly the late gr.B crisis. You can't mix the level of technology with stuff being used in stock automotive production. That is two different things.


it's all about marketing. the racing car has to have the logo, and preferably some looks in common with the car people can buy at their dealer. nothing more

That is true but it wasn't always like that.

[denkimi]

No, that's not true. They made every changes which they saw as a step forward for having better stage times. Whatever they found to be an advantage (and allowed) they used. There were huge steps towards better handing such as placing the engine in-front of the rear axle as well. Audi insisting for long time on having the longitudinal I5 engine in-front of the front axle was a result of marketing decision going against the technical arguments. The tyre and suspension development was not sleeping either.

It is certainly true.

Say you have one million dollar to develop the car. You could build a new revolutionary engine that will make your car 1s/km faster, or you could further develop shocks that will give you a 0,1s advantage. What do you think they would choose?

Group b was a time of revolution, not of evolution. Nobody cared about perfecting the existing technology if by the next year it was already obsolete. Instead of perfecting handling and winning a little time, they just put a bigger turbo on it and won a lot of time.
Sure, everything else also improved, but the revolutions made the cars suddenly so much faster that evolution could't keep up.

So what you had where always new, very fast, but very imperfect cars.

Nowadays there are no more revolutions possible, so teams put their effort in small changes. They perfect the cars, trying to make driving as easy as possible.

[Mirek]

It is certainly true.

Say you have one million dollar to develop the car. You could build a new revolutionary engine that will make your car 1s/km faster, or you could further develop shocks that will give you a 0,1s advantage. What do you think they would choose?

Group b was a time of revolution, not of evolution. Nobody cared about perfecting the existing technology if by the next year it was already obsolete. Instead of perfecting handling and winning a little time, they just put a bigger turbo on it and won a lot of time.
Sure, everything else also improved, but the revolutions made the cars suddenly so much faster that evolution could't keep up.

So what you had where always new, very fast, but very imperfect cars.

Nowadays there are no more revolutions possible, so teams put their effort in small changes. They perfect the cars, trying to make driving as easy as possible.

No, it's not true. This "power over everything" idea is represented mainly by the Audi approach but that didn't come from the engineers thinking that more power and more aero is a cure for everything. They knew very well that the handling of the car was shitty and that the main reason was the wrong engine location and orientation but the company management insisted on it for marketing reasons. In the same time Audi engineers were secretly working on their own "engineering solution" with smaller mid-engine car but that never made it behind the prototype phase due to the historical events.

But Audi was not alone. Lancia long time stayed with a nimble small and light RWD. Peugeot introduced a mid-engine lightweight and small car which was much less powerful than the Audi yet it was faster. Ford came with a concept with switchable 4WD/RWD to improve handling on different surfaces etc. They were well aware that the power was not everything even though it definitely played far bigger role than in the restrictor era which was about to come later.

[mknight]

I find it funny that you are complaining how WRC is not the "best and latest tech" without limits when by own admission it hasn't been the case for the last 33 years!! (in rallying) For Formula 1 it's at least 26 years or more as well. (if you count active aero and turbo engines it's longer)

Even with the limits it's quite certain that the 2022 cars will be faster than 2011-2016 cars and likely not much slower than 2017-2021.

[Rally Power]

Using improved R5 engines and transmissions (getting rid of WRC purposed built engines and active diffs) seem reasonable ways to achieve costs reduction but to limit suspension tech is probably a bit too much; suspension development has been a major contribution for car handling and safety improvements.

Btw, it remains to see if spaceframe will become mandatory (hope not) and how much the hybrid system will finally cost (it’d be ridiculous making it cost half of the car price…).



Don't worry, they'll come up with something new again in like 10 years.

Make it 5…
The previous WRC generation only last 6 years and the current one will last 5 (unless the FIA keeps delaying the regs…). Only Gr.B had a shorter life (4 full years, as ’82 was a development season with most of the manus still using Gr.2/4 cars).

[Mirek]

I find it funny that you are complaining how WRC is not the "best and latest tech" without limits when by own admission it hasn't been the case for the last 33 years!! (in rallying) For Formula 1 it's at least 26 years or more as well. (if you count active aero and turbo engines it's longer)

Even with the limits it's quite certain that the 2022 cars will be faster than 2011-2016 cars and likely not much slower than 2017-2021.

I am not complaining. I wrote clearly already in the first post that I didn't see it as a wrong thing to use the old-stylish tech. I only wrote that I found it funny.

The subsequent rhetorical discussion is a bit pointless in relation to the new cars, I agree with that, however I didn't want to leave the questions to my statements unanswered.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's like in F1 - for years they kept changing the Regs to slow the cars down and within a year they were faster than ever.

2022 WRC cars with hybrid but other limits will probably soon be as fast or faster then the '17-spec cars.

[er88]

Real shame if the next generation of cars arent as spectacular. Hopefully they will be in terms of speed and noise, because it's what gets fans to the stages

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/wrc-tallipomo-ilmaisi-suuren-huolensa-kukaan-ei-tieda-mita-tapahtuu/

Millener is concerned about the effects that corona virus has on the world economy. It could lead into car manufacturers having to cut their budgets and lead into less money being available for developing the new cars and postponing the 2022 rules.

[Mirek]

That is certainly possible.

[Rally Power]

https://www.rallit.fi/wrc-tallipomo-ilmaisi-suuren-huolensa-kukaan-ei-tieda-mita-tapahtuu/
Millener is concerned about the effects that corona virus has on the world economy. It could lead into car manufacturers having to cut their budgets and lead into less money being available for developing the new cars and postponing the 2022 rules.

Yep, now it’s all Covid fault…
It’s public that the rules were already delayed long before the virus and the situation got worse as some teams, including MSport, pressured the FIA to switch from the initial plan of keeping current WRC cars, with an adiccional hybrid system, to create a whole new WRC car based in cost saving R5 tech. With so many changes, that can still include mandatory spaceframe chassis use, a postponement will be hardly surprising.

[EstWRC]

Estonian newspaper writing that there is some intrigue in Mexico regarding the new rules for 2022.

“I have a feeling that Malcolm (Malcolm Wilson, M-Sports Team Leader - Ed.) has got what he wanted and we are moving towards boring cars. We have just reached a very good level with the WRCs - they are really awesome to drive. Do we now give up our work and go back a step towards boredom? I find it very difficult to understand and there are some question marks about the future of the series, ”Neuville said.

"For me, WRC cars can't be like R5 machines because they're just boring to drive," says Evans. “Right now we have cars that are really awesome to drive. We shouldn't abandon such a good technology. It is possible to reduce costs within reason, because the rally championship must be attractive to factory teams. ”


i fully agree with both of them.

[Rally Power]

Estonian newspaper writing that there is some intrigue in Mexico regarding the new rules for 2022.

“I have a feeling that Malcolm (Malcolm Wilson, M-Sports Team Leader - Ed.) has got what he wanted and we are moving towards boring cars. We have just reached a very good level with the WRCs - they are really awesome to drive. Do we now give up our work and go back a step towards boredom? I find it very difficult to understand and there are some question marks about the future of the series, ”Neuville said.

"For me, WRC cars can't be like R5 machines because they're just boring to drive," says Evans. “Right now we have cars that are really awesome to drive. We shouldn't abandon such a good technology. It is possible to reduce costs within reason, because the rally championship must be attractive to factory teams. ”


i fully agree with both of them.


No doubt that ’22 (or ’23…) WRC cars will loose the current 'wow factor' but from what’s known they won’t be R5 cars, although they’ll be using R5 based engine and transmission.

Anyway, the situation seems pretty clear: with current WRC overall costs (expensive cars, expanded calendar, etc) there’s little way to attract new manus and MSport will pull out sooner or later. This leaves 2 options: keeping current cars while reducing the number of events and their extension (less rally days and kms) or to keep events current format and the series expansion (to new and faraway locations) while running cheaper and less spectacular cars. Apparently the FIA has decided by the second. I hope they're rigth.

[RS]

If I were those drivers I shouldn't whine too much, the way things are headed at the moment they'll end up playing computer games instead.

[skarderud]

It's no doubt that the cars has to be cheaper to build and run from 2022. Its lots of possibly solutions, but from a fan point of wiew, a R5++ engine/transmision together with a hybrid system in a standarised tubeframe, some nice aerodynamics and wheelarces, and shorter suspention movement, will make the cars spectacular and nice looking, a little slower in curves and over jumps, but still faster than R5's.

Have to put some rules on aerodynamics, use of carbonfibre, and other expensive materials.

I rather hav 5 different brands in an R5++ WRC class than 2 in a maximum WRC class.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[pantealex]

Weird that people still talk about "R5" which isn´t even mentioned in 2020 rules, so it´s 100% sure that "R5" isn´t 2022 solution

[skarderud]

Its not R5 like in todays R5's, but its the use of a similiar engine/transmission rules that has been mentioned.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Spoilt brat Neuville moaning about the 2022 cars and not sure he wants to drive one !

The costs matter and we need more Manus in WRC, not to lose them.

Lower costs will create more seats and help.privateers join the WRC.

[BigWorm]

Spoilt brat Neuville moaning about the 2022 cars and not sure he wants to drive one !

The costs matter and we need more Manus in WRC, not to lose them.

Lower costs will create more seats and help.privateers join the WRC.

Ask most drivers and they'll probably prefer a state of the art car.

[AnttiL]

Spoilt brat Neuville moaning about the 2022 cars and not sure he wants to drive one !

Evans then also?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Evans then also?

What's he said ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ask most drivers and they'll probably prefer a state of the art car.

But saying they'll be shit and he doesnt know if he wants to drive one... poor baby.

[AnttiL]

What's he said ?

If you're referring to EstWRC's post about an Estonian magazine


"For me, WRC cars can't be like R5 machines because they're just boring to drive," says Evans. “Right now we have cars that are really awesome to drive. We shouldn't abandon such a good technology. It is possible to reduce costs within reason, because the rally championship must be attractive to factory teams. ”

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If you're referring to EstWRC's post about an Estonian magazine

Evans sounds much more measured and understanding than Neuville.

[EstWRC]

lol

[denkimi]

Spoilt brat Neuville moaning about the 2022 cars and not sure he wants to drive one !

The costs matter and we need more Manus in WRC, not to lose them.

Lower costs will create more seats and help.privateers join the WRC.
Except the cost will not be lower. If anyone wants to step in and beat hyundai or toyota, they will need a similar budget. Probably even higher the first years to catch up.

The costs follow the budget teams want to spend, not the other way around.

[macebig]

Wonder what people would have said during 1986...

[AnttiL]

The 1987 effect would be achieved by making the new Rally3 class the main class. The 2022 cars will still be fast and spectacular.

[GravelBen]

...This leaves 2 options: keeping current cars while reducing the number of events and their extension (less rally days and kms) or to keep events current format and the series expansion (to new and faraway locations) while running cheaper and less spectacular cars...

Cheaper cars don't necessarily have to be less spectacular though do they?

I think less aerodynamics and reduced suspension travel while keeping a good power level should make the cars move around more and favour a more sideways spectacular driving style, which is fun for the drivers as well as spectators. Yes stage times will be slower, but FIA want to reduce average speeds anyway don't they?

[steve.mandzij]

Cheaper cars don't necessarily have to be less spectacular though do they?

I think less aerodynamics and reduced suspension travel while keeping a good power level should make the cars move around more and favour a more sideways spectacular driving style, which is fun for the drivers as well as spectators. Yes stage times will be slower, but FIA want to reduce average speeds anyway don't they?If the costs go down and the return of privateers becomes a possibility I can see Jari Matti and Paddon returning with the chance of winning events if the driving demands more sideways.

[denkimi]

If the costs go down and the return of privateers becomes a possibility I can see Jari Matti and Paddon returning with the chance of winning events if the driving demands more sideways.
driving will never demand more sideways. clean lines will always be the fastest way.

it will be more difficult to drive clean lines, and it will be less punishing to go sideways, but it it will not be faster.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

With the break in current action I have been watching some old WRC series.

In 2010 not long after the 2008 global financial crisis there were two Manufacturer Teams: BP Ford Abu Dhabi World Rally Team & Citroën Total World Rally Team.

But also each had a junior team, Stobart M-Sport Ford Rally Team & Citroën Junior Team.

And there were also SEVEN privateer teams running WRC's (Munchi's Ford, Petter Solberg WRT, Adapta WRT, Synergon Turan Motorsport, Van Merksteijn Motorsport, Monster WRT & Ipatec Racing) !

And in 2011 there there were entries by 23 Teams including Mini WRC Team and Kimi Raikkonen's Ice 1 Racing1 !!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_World_Rally_Championship

This scale of WRC entry is what we've lost with the high costs of the new 2017-spec cars and what a reduction in costs could bring back.

[AnttiL]

Out of those 23 teams only five managed a podium in 2011 (Ford, Stobart, Citroen, Petter Solberg and Mini), and out of those Petter twice and Mini once.

Outside the manufacturer teams it's rare to have competitional entries (unless we're talking about Loeb in 2006 or something). Østberg was close in 2017, but even he seemed to struggle with issues that the M-Sport cars never had, forcing him to retire even from decent positions.

I think the four-team competition from 2017 to 2019 has been the best the WRC has ever seen, even though it has been practically without privateers. And the title fight this year looks interesting, let's see how long it continues.

Sadly the WRC2 series hasn't really produced many interesting battles for seconds, it's been more about who finishes the rally without issues and some rallies have had a ridiculously low entry list.

In any case, if the cost-cutting brings us more factory teams, I'm all for it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I think the four-team competition from 2017 to 2019 has been the best the WRC has ever seen, even though it has been practically without privateers. And the title fight this year looks interesting, let's see how long it continues.



Yes it was great, but it didnt (couldn't) last.

Citroen bailing-out when Ogier left was a big loss, but they were already on a tight budget anyway. I dont think they were going to be around that much longer.

Recently M-Sport said the loss of Lappi's car in Mexico would impact them hard financially, so they could be next.

You also have to think of the fans - watching less than 10 WRC cars on a rally nowadays isnt great, compared to seeing 20 (even if they weren't all competitive).

[AnttiL]

Recently M-Sport said the loss of Lappi's car in Mexico would impact them hard financially, so they could be next.
Not the first time M-Sport says they're in financial trouble.


You also have to think of the fans - watching less than 10 WRC cars on a rally nowadays isnt great, compared to seeing 20 (even if they weren't all competitive).
I know this divides opinions, some are more interested in the cars themselves rather than the driving. For me as a spectator on the stages, it doesn't matter if the gentleman driver has a new spec WRC car or an R5, it's just cruising anyway. Meanwhile, an R2 driven to the max can be more entertaining. As for watching All Live, it's only better if we get to see more WRC2 cars with onboard cams rather than the gentlemen with WRC cars.

[AndyRAC]

I think the four-team competition from 2017 to 2019 has been the best the WRC has ever seen......


Really? I'm not sureI'd agree with that.....1998 - 2002 was pretty epic, maybe before your time.

[AnttiL]

Really? I'm not sureI'd agree with that.....1998 - 2002 was pretty epic, maybe before your time.

No, I actually followed that time pretty intensively. Of course it was also a great era.

[deephouse]

Out of those 23 teams only five managed a podium in 2011 (Ford, Stobart, Citroen, Petter Solberg and Mini), and out of those Petter twice and Mini once.

Outside the manufacturer teams it's rare to have competitional entries (unless we're talking about Loeb in 2006 or something). Østberg was close in 2017, but even he seemed to struggle with issues that the M-Sport cars never had, forcing him to retire even from decent positions.

I think the four-team competition from 2017 to 2019 has been the best the WRC has ever seen, even though it has been practically without privateers. And the title fight this year looks interesting, let's see how long it continues.

Sadly the WRC2 series hasn't really produced many interesting battles for seconds, it's been more about who finishes the rally without issues and some rallies have had a ridiculously low entry list.

In any case, if the cost-cutting brings us more factory teams, I'm all for it.

I would rather have 10 nail bitting fast drivers than total of 30 drivers and 25 of them woud be slower and of those 20 crash prone from rally2. So one gentleman driver now is too much at least for WRC+ Live. I would love to see mre teams or manufacturers but that how life it is and COVID-19 could worse the situation now, so I have none expections at all at the moment.

[denkimi]

With the break in current action I have been watching some old WRC series.

In 2010 not long after the 2008 global financial crisis there were two Manufacturer Teams: BP Ford Abu Dhabi World Rally Team & Citroën Total World Rally Team.

But also each had a junior team, Stobart M-Sport Ford Rally Team & Citroën Junior Team.

And there were also SEVEN privateer teams running WRC's (Munchi's Ford, Petter Solberg WRT, Adapta WRT, Synergon Turan Motorsport, Van Merksteijn Motorsport, Monster WRT & Ipatec Racing) !

And in 2011 there there were entries by 23 Teams including Mini WRC Team and Kimi Raikkonen's Ice 1 Racing1 !!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_World_Rally_Championship

This scale of WRC entry is what we've lost with the high costs of the new 2017-spec cars and what a reduction in costs could bring back.
nobody is stopping the teams from starting another junior team.

and nobody is stopping privateers from renting a car. there are people that are rich enough not having to worry about the costs, like serderidis or prokop. yet it seems they are not interested for some reason.

[AnttiL]

nobody is stopping the teams from starting another junior team.

and nobody is stopping privateers from renting a car. there are people that are rich enough not having to worry about the costs, like serderidis or prokop. yet it seems they are not interested for some reason.

Well that's the point, it's too expensive now...also, car manufacturers aren't as wealthy and not willing to use as much money in rallying as before.

[Sulland]

Maybe under the current and maybe future economic status of the world would be to drop WRC17-20 cars now. And go R5/Rally2 as top class until 2022 or maybe 2023. As it look today, maybe 23 is the best option.

A lot of money saved for factory teams, that also can use their smaller budget to develop the next gen Rally1 cars, and test them well.

For drivers, they will get a possibility to compete with the best drivers and teams in same material. New talent will have thei chance to shine.
FIA need of course to keep the current joker system, so the factories will go bananas in development. And the few jokers need to be made for all.

If done this way, the new Rally1 will be a very exiting car, both for drivers and fans.
We easily forget!!!!!

[Tauri_J]

Maybe under the current and maybe future economic status of the world would be to drop WRC17-20 cars now. And go R5/Rally2 as top class until 2022 or maybe 2023. As it look today, maybe 23 is the best option.

A lot of money saved for factory teams, that also can use their smaller budget to develop the next gen Rally1 cars, and test them well.

For drivers, they will get a possibility to compete with the best drivers and teams in same material. New talent will have thei chance to shine.
FIA need of course to keep the current joker system, so the factories will go bananas in development. And the few jokers need to be made for all.

If done this way, the new Rally1 will be a very exiting car, both for drivers and fans.
We easily forget!!!!!

No, R5's are rubbish compared to WRC, and if everyone would be on WRC2 cars, the big 3 would dominate even more.

[Mirek]

Maybe under the current and maybe future economic status of the world would be to drop WRC17-20 cars now. And go R5/Rally2 as top class until 2022 or maybe 2023. As it look today, maybe 23 is the best option.

A lot of money saved for factory teams, that also can use their smaller budget to develop the next gen Rally1 cars, and test them well.

For drivers, they will get a possibility to compete with the best drivers and teams in same material. New talent will have thei chance to shine.
FIA need of course to keep the current joker system, so the factories will go bananas in development. And the few jokers need to be made for all.

If done this way, the new Rally1 will be a very exiting car, both for drivers and fans.
We easily forget!!!!!

How many times have we had this discussion in the past? If R5 are the top class it will make them more expensive and less accessible for everyone. It won't make WRC dramatically cheaper but it will make everything else more expensive. Please don't touch R5 when they work as a class.

[deephouse]

No, R5's are rubbish compared to WRC, and if everyone would be on WRC2 cars, the big 3 would dominate even more.

Toyota don't have that kind of car, so they would be out. VW said that they don't support ICE anymore, Proton is too small, Skoda is not interested anymore. So that leaves only two options and very unlikely to happen.

[Sulland]

How many times have we had this discussion in the past? If R5 are the top class it will make them more expensive and less accessible for everyone. It won't make WRC dramatically cheaper but it will make everything else more expensive. Please don't touch R5 when they work as a class.

If FIA are not able to find a way to make sure development and cost will be allowed to spiral in R5 for a year or two, they need to find something else to do.

They have tools in their box already.


Maxprice
Joker system


It is just to make sure they control this according to their own rules.

[the sniper]

Toyota don't have that kind of car, so they would be out.

Tommi/Toyota are developing a brand new WRC car now for 2021, that looks like it'll only see one year's use. The idea that they couldn't have an R5 ready for 2022 (if needs be) is ridiculous, especially when we've been led to believe some work has already been done on the R5 project.

[Tarmop]

Read again, the talk was about now, until 2022, when there`s a crisis going on in the society (and economy), top class should be r5...and that is impossible.

[the sniper]

Read again, the talk was about now, until 2022, when there`s a crisis going on in the society (and economy), top class should be r5...and that is impossible.

Woops! Didn't consider that as there's surely no chance of them being dropped for the remainder of this season. More likely this season won't resume at all if things are that bad.

[L555MAT]

I agree, this was the best era imo. 98 had 5 different winners in the first 5 events

[denkimi]

I agree, this was the best era imo. 98 had 5 different winners in the first 5 eventsbut those 5 won every event that year.
In 2017 we had 7 different winners

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/nayttaa-ihan-tyhmalle-esapekka-lappi-lataa-suorat-sanat-mm-ralliuudistuksista/

Lappi also giving negative comments on the "R5+" regulations for 2022. He says "it looks stupid" and that "wheels will fly off when those cars are driven flat out". But he also thinks they will still look spectacular and drivers will have driving to do because of the lack of (active) center diff.

[tommeke_B]

Current R5 cars seem to be driven pretty flat out without wheels flying off...

[AnttiL]

Current R5 cars seem to be driven pretty flat out without wheels flying off...

- Remember added power will increase the strain
- WRC2 cars have always more punctures than WRC cars.
- Competition in WRC2 is not as fierce as in main WRC. This has been said by all drivers who have stepped up recently from WRC2 to WRC, they say that you need to push all the time or you fall off the competition. I assume doing this with R5 cars (with more power) would result in more technical/mechanical issues.

[tommeke_B]

The reason why they have more punctures is quite logical, just look at the roads after the WRC cars have passed.
Now they take huge cuts and put their wheels in crazy places because they can, with new cars, they will have to adapt.

I love the current WRCars, but with the current situation and the financial crisis that's coming at us, it's a no-brainer. The whole automotive industry will be heavily affected, and one of the first things they'll save money on is motorsport.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Could they go back to the previous generation of WRC cars and just add a bit of aero ?

[AnttiL]

Could they go back to the previous generation of WRC cars and just add a bit of aero ?

Those cars would still have more advanced suspensions than R5, and paddleshift gearboxes.

[EstWRC]

yeah, to hell with these driver opinions!

what could they possibly know about driving WRC cars?

pffff....

[Rallyper]

Could they go back to the previous generation of WRC cars and just add a bit of aero ?

Why not a good mix of previous generation and R5 (+). Add all that is not way expensive. Exclude rocket science gizmos on the new WRC cars... :)

[tommeke_B]

yeah, to hell with these driver opinions!

what could they possibly know about driving WRC cars?

pffff....
If nobody is there to pay for it, their opinion is invalid. ;) Remember that after 2008 with the financial crisis we quickly went from 4 to just 2 manufacturers, the current economic situation doesn't look brighter than it did back then...

[AnttiL]

I also have to add that I agree that it's a good idea to reduce suspension travel, and to simplify the transmission. It will make driving more spectacular and reduce corner speeds. You cannot drive as straight and flat out as now.

[Mk2 RS2000]

For sure the world as we know it will be seriously changed when Covid 19 is finally under control, there will be border controls, there will be travel restrictions. The worlds economy will be seriously affected, unemployment will increase and this has been well signalled. The public perception of "Wealthy activity" will take a back step as companies focus on regrowth and Government support for major sporting activities will disappear as they focus on creation on rebuilding their countries economy. Just look at how many countries International airlines are making statements already advising people that they are reducing back to national carriers and planning to drop international service. All of this will I believe see our sport go back closer to its beginnings, Probably as far back as the Group 1 - 4 days or maybe the early Group A days it will still be an adventure and a test of men an machinery but we will not see the amount of money thrown at it as has been the case of recent times

[EstWRC]

The next generation of World Rally Championship machinery will retain the same engines currently used in Rally1-specification World Rally Cars.

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-keeps-current-engine-base-for-2022-hybrid-move/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The next generation of World Rally Championship machinery will retain the same engines currently used in Rally1-specification World Rally Cars.



"But reduce costs and development..."

How ?

[EstWRC]

"But reduce costs and development..."

How ?

Malcolm got what he wanted, now Tommi got what he wanted, next is Adamos turn :D

Evans about the decision https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-wrc-teams-arrived-at-2022-engine-decision/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

These guys got the job...

https://www.compact-dynamics.de/unternehmen/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Malcolm got what he wanted, now Tommi got what he wanted, next is Adamos turn :D

Evans about the decision https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-wrc-teams-arrived-at-2022-engine-decision/

So same GRE as now, plus an electric motor for road sections AND extra power on the stages. The hybrid WRC cars could be approaching Group B levels of bhp !

[the sniper]

Given that I believe Compact Dynamics is majority owned by Schaeffler, hopefully this deal includes some kind of sponsorship by them of the WRC. The WRC's image could do with flaunting some high end sponsors, even if they don't actually contribute much financially.

[RS]

Will removal of the centre diff and the change to simpler suspension be enough to cancel out the additional cost of the hybrid system?

Doesn’t seem like a great time for manufacturers to commit to new and probably not very cheap regulations. Keeping the current three manufacturers for 2022 under the current circumstances would probably be a good result.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Will removal of the centre diff and the change to simpler suspension be enough to cancel out the additional cost of the hybrid system?

Doesn’t seem like a great time for manufacturers to commit to new and probably not very cheap regulations. Keeping the current three manufacturers for 2022 under the current circumstances would probably be a good result.

Agreed. With the Covid-19 downturn the chances of new manufacturers joining WRC in 2022 are slim to none.

M-Sport are clearly the Team in most danger so the new car costs to them must be the key issue. Otherwise I could easily see them pulling out and concentrating on just entering WRC2, plus sales and service.

Just having Toyota vs Hyundai would be a very poor Championship entry. And the costs would dictate that there wouldnt be any privateers for variety either (unlike the Citroen vs Ford days).

[ferrial]

Agreed. With the Covid-19 downturn the chances of new manufacturers joining WRC in 2022 are slim to none.

M-Sport are clearly the Team in most danger so the new car costs to them must be the key issue. Otherwise I could easily see them pulling out and concentrating on just entering WRC2, plus sales and service.

Just having Toyota vs Hyundai would be a very poor Championship entry. And the costs would dictate that there wouldnt be any privateers for variety either (unlike the Citroen vs Ford days).

It would be sad to see only Toyota competing. It seems that, Toyota is the only one to push regulations, which lead to more expensive cars/bigger costs.

[doubled1978]

It would be sad to see only Toyota competing. It seems that, Toyota is the only one to push regulations, which lead to more expensive cars/bigger costs.

I’m not sure that’s the case, reading the article they all seem to have come to agree that specifically talking about the engine, although the GRE is far more expensive per unit, they won’t use anything like as many through a season, and the engines are pretty well developed now anyway. Also if they go back to a production based unit, there is the possibility for 1 to spend a huge amount on a different engine that the other cannot, and then it’s more of a problem.

[Zeakiwi2]

Dirtfish / D Evans - reporting that M-Sport model for 2022 as the all new Puma .

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Dirtfish / D Evans - reporting that M-Sport model for 2022 as the all new Puma .

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-tipped-for-2022-puma-switch-in-wrc/

Check the date ... ;)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-tipped-for-2022-puma-switch-in-wrc/

Check the date ... ;)

Oh no its true !! :(

David Evans @davidevansrally
Just to be clear @DirtFishRally would have run this story tomorrow morning. Or yesterday afternoon... #forgetthedate

[pantealex]

Dirtfish / D Evans - reporting that M-Sport model for 2022 as the all new Puma .

I like that idea.

[Andre Oliveira]

Ford Puma Ecoboost Hybrid Rally1

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-a-puma-switch-makes-more-sense-than-youd-think

It's not crazy, but the SUV is taking over the world already. It doesnt need another boost via WRC.

For eco reasons family cars should be getting smaller and lighter but instead its the opposite.

[AndyRAC]

I read that article, and it just disappointed me. SUVs sell, so the WRC will go down that route. What about other race series - I bet they won't touch them with a barge pole.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Render from last year predicted this...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUiYQw4WAAEzr5G?format=jpg&name=medium

Puma ST would be the 'base car':

https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/puma_st_4.jpg?itok=n_2u52KC

https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/puma_st_7.jpg?itok=6PX-VfrL

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2020-ford-puma-st-hot-crossover-seen-without-disguise

[the sniper]

So the 'scaled down' prototype proposals weren't for Subaru, they were for Ford...? Looking at that picture though, if you were to take away the bottom 20cm of the entire body, you'd actually have a fairly sleek looking hatchback. Essentially a smaller Focus. Certainly I'd rather this wasn't happening, but maybe the finished product won't be so bad. I'll say this though, this better mean Ford are going to properly financially commit to the WRC and M-Sport going forward... I wouldn't bet on that happening though.

[Gorio]

Did someone say crossovers?
https://youtu.be/39ddNFUzVNQ

[steve.mandzij]

Render from last year predicted this...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUiYQw4WAAEzr5G?format=jpg&name=medium

Puma ST would be the 'base car':

https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/puma_st_4.jpg?itok=n_2u52KC

https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/puma_st_7.jpg?itok=6PX-VfrL

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2020-ford-puma-st-hot-crossover-seen-without-disguiseAll opinions are valid but that Puma is a very very slick looking vehicle.

[AndyRAC]

So the 'scaled down' prototype proposals weren't for Subaru, they were for Ford...? Looking at that picture though, if you were to take away the bottom 20cm of the entire body, you'd actually have a fairly sleek looking hatchback. Essentially a smaller Focus. Certainly I'd rather this wasn't happening, but maybe the finished product won't be so bad. I'll say this though, this better mean Ford are going to properly financially commit to the WRC and M-Sport going forward... I wouldn't bet on that happening though.

I dislike the idea of an SUV/Crossover as a base for a WRCar; however if it meant Ford actually committing properly then I'd be happy about that - but I won't hold my breath. Listening to the Absolute Rally podcast on the 1995 season, ex-Ford man John Millington's comments sound familiar; Ford not really committing to a WRC programme. It always beggars belief the amount of love Ford get from rallyfans when they've consistently mounted less than committed WRC programmes through the years - and have so few Championships.

Strangely, I quite like the idea of an ST/ST-Line Puma as a road car (even as a fan of the original Ford Racing Puma).

[HKSjbg]

Who else reckons Hyundai will follow suit and switch to the Kona? What they do in 2021 could complicate things with the current i20 soon to go out of production...

[deephouse]

I said it many times that I think that SUV's are the thing now and obviosuly teams will follow that.

[AnttiL]

For sure every manufacturer will make their Rally1 hybrid cars from models with hybrid technology in the road versions.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So these 2022 cars with a Global Race Engine, spaceframe chassis and standard Hybrid power package... is the main difference between them just going to be the bodywork and aero ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

All opinions are valid but that Puma is a very very slick looking vehicle.

As an SUV/Crossover thing, maybe... but as a general piece of automotive machinery it's horrible.

[AnttiL]

So these 2022 cars with a Global Race Engine, spaceframe chassis and standard Hybrid power package... is the main difference between them just going to be the bodywork and aero ?

They will all build their own engines and suspension. GRE is just the specification of the engine. All cars will use the same rollcage but other than that the chassis comes from the team. And like you said, the hybrid package will be shared between the teams.

[pantealex]

As said all teams have those GRE now and all are completely different engines. 2022 will not change that.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

'The biggest fear in the championship is having to delay the arrival of hybrids. Formula 1 and NASCAR have both pushed back planned major technical rules changes amid the current coronavirus hiatus.

Such a move in the WRC could mean the loss of Hyundai and Ford, both of whom have made clear the need to use alternative energy from 2022.'

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-coronavirus-pause-hits-wrcs-2022-rules-planning/

[masa90]

I think wrc will either have to keep these rules or then jump way back to cheaper and simpler cars. This can become a major concern. Also doubt on how long the calendar is with many expensive races. Lets see.

Just hope that wrc is able to finish 2020 and continue next year aswell.

[Rally Power]

I think wrc will either have to keep these rules or then jump way back to cheaper and simpler cars. This can become a major concern. (...)

The new rules path is beyond comprehension; initially the aim was only to adapt a mild hybrid system to the current cars, later it was told that the cars would be based in cost saving R5 tech and now they’re in between.

Apparently the FIA is writing the regs on a permanent compromise with all the manus, which can explain the regs delay and some confusing measures, like reducing suspension travel to save a few euros while keeping mega expensive GREngines…

[Rally Power]

Such a move in the WRC could mean the loss of Hyundai and Ford, both of whom have made clear the need to use alternative energy from 2022.'

That sounds speculative; manus wanted to include Hybrids in the new regs but that doesn’t mean they’ll leave if the regs are delayed one year.

[pantealex]

keeping mega expensive GREngines…

one GRE is 150.000€
one Rally2 engine is 30.000€

BUT

adding hybrid system to Rally2 engine is way more expensive than adding it to GRE
also Rally2 engine won´t last long enough with hybrid systems (3 engines /season is impossible with Rally2hybrid engine)
so total costs are not that different.

[masa90]

one GRE is 150.000€
one Rally2 engine is 30.000€

BUT

adding hybrid system to Rally2 engine is way more expensive than adding it to GRE
also Rally2 engine won´t last long enough with hybrid systems (3 engines /season is impossible with Rally2hybrid engine)
so total costs are not that different.

In that way it is ok to make the decision to stick the current type engine. But I am pretty sure that it will be really hard for manufacturers to justify spending so much money with the coming financial situation.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I was watching a preview of the 1986 RAC Rally last night and they interviewed some drivers about the banning of the Group B cars.

Malcolm Wilson & Tony Pond said they should have reduced the power of the cars and Wilson wanted turbos banned to reduce the fire risk. They both thought the cars could be made safe to use, instead of being thrown away altogether and going to Gp. A cars.

At least for 2022 there isnt a wholesale WRC car ban and start from scratch.

[AnttiL]

I was watching a preview of the 1986 RAC Rally last night and they interviewed some drivers about the banning of the Group B cars.

Malcolm Wilson & Tony Pond said they should have reduced the power of the cars and Wilson wanted turbos banned to reduce the fire risk. They both thought the cars could be made safe to use, instead of being thrown away altogether and going to Gp. A cars.

At least for 2022 there isnt a wholesale WRC car ban and start from scratch.

Well, the current WRC cars will be as useless as GpB cars were in 1987...

[Rally Power]

one GRE is 150.000€
one Rally2 engine is 30.000€
BUT
adding hybrid system to Rally2 engine is way more expensive than adding it to GRE
also Rally2 engine won´t last long enough with hybrid systems (3 engines /season is impossible with Rally2hybrid engine)
so total costs are not that different.

Honestly that explanation is far from clear and sounds like a Matton’s excuse for another U-turn on the regs.

Who knows, maybe GSE’s use was a red line for Toyota, maybe all manus are running out of time to deal with so many tech changes, maybe the FIA is now more concerned about keeping current manus than getting new ones; one thing is becoming clear: future cars won’t be that less expensive, once the announced cuts will mainly serve to compensate hybrid systems extra cost.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Well, the current WRC cars will be as useless as GpB cars were in 1987...

The cars themselves will be, but carrying over their engine & turbo will help and probably quite a few other parts.

The cars wont be as drastically different as say a Delta HF was to a Delta S4.

[AnttiL]

I’ve read (on an article on YLE) that the turbo will be simplified

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Mk4 Focus RS cancelled due costs for hybrid power ...

https://drivetribe.com/p/bad-news-2021-ford-focus-rs-canceled-OJkaafXwT6Cr8nojcV_Vhw?iid=WQ2trBhHSiWreNTf7o9PbA

[AnttiL]

Mk4 Focus RS cancelled due costs for hybrid power ...

https://drivetribe.com/p/bad-news-2021-ford-focus-rs-canceled-OJkaafXwT6Cr8nojcV_Vhw?iid=WQ2trBhHSiWreNTf7o9PbA

and that has to do with WRC future? It's been 10 years since Focus was a WRC model and we don't need homologation specials such as the RS series to make a WRC car.

[AnttiL]

The number of allowed engines per car per team will be reduced from three to two for 2022 https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-engine-allowance-set-to-be-reduced-in-2022/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

and that has to do with WRC future? It's been 10 years since Focus was a WRC model and we don't need homologation specials such as the RS series to make a WRC car.

To me its an indication of why M-Sport is going to the Puma (already hybrid) even though its no sort of performance car.

The Mk4 Focus would be an ideal base car for rally but it seems the SUV buyer has killed it. The RS brand has been linked to rally in the past but now it seems totally dead.

The reasonably-priced fast Ford buyer will now be stuck at the ST level.

[HKSjbg]

The ‘base car’ isn’t really a base car in the same sense as it has been up to this point though. The car M-Sport will roll out for 2022 will most likely be the same regardless of whether they decide to slap on the headlights/grille/something resembling the side windows/rear lights from a Fiesta, Puma, Kuga or Focus.

If a national competitor (a gentleman driver type) were rich enough they could probably buy one from M-Sport and ask they have it styled like a Focus and not a Puma 😂

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The FIA statement read:
"Manufacturers will be allowed to use a production bodyshell, or a prototype tubular structure to current WRC size guidelines, while the FIA is set to define carry-over elements from production vehicles for key visual elements. "There will also be an option for 'scaling' of the body within prescribed limits, to allow larger cars to comply with dimension targets."

So Manu's can use a production bodyshell if it suits them and is the size required.

If M-Sport 'chooses' the Puma they will have to scale it all down, whereas if they chose a Focus they could just use a production bodyshell.

[HKSjbg]

But as the Focus is a C-segment hatch and the Puma is based on the Fiesta platform (correct me if I’m wrong) surely the Focus is bigger and anything will be scaled down to a 4000mm length as per the current min length allowed?

[pantealex]

The FIA statement read:
"Manufacturers will be allowed to use a production bodyshell, or a prototype tubular structure to current WRC size guidelines, while the FIA is set to define carry-over elements from production vehicles for key visual elements. "There will also be an option for 'scaling' of the body within prescribed limits, to allow larger cars to comply with dimension targets."

So Manu's can use a production bodyshell if it suits them and is the size required.

If M-Sport 'chooses' the Puma they will have to scale it all down, whereas if they chose a Focus they could just use a production bodyshell.

If M-Sport 'chooses' the FOCUS they will have to scale it all down, whereas if they chose a PUMA they could just use a production bodyshell

[AnttiL]

To me its an indication of why M-Sport is going to the Puma (already hybrid) even though its no sort of performance car.

You mentioned the point yourself. It's hybrid. The manufacturers will want to push hybrid models in the WRC. Most likely Hyundai will go to the Kona. Yaris already has a hybrid option.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If M-Sport 'chooses' the FOCUS they will have to scale it all down, whereas if they chose a PUMA they could just use a production bodyshell

How so - isnt the Puma too big as a standard bodyshell ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

You mentioned the point yourself. It's hybrid. The manufacturers will want to push hybrid models in the WRC. Most likely Hyundai will go to the Kona. Yaris already has a hybrid option.

But Fiesta & Focus are coming soon too...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-launch-mild-hybrid-fiesta-and-focus-2020

[the sniper]

As an aside, wasn't it the argument that there couldn't be a Fiesta RS because it'd too heavily eat into the sales of the Focus RS? Well now there's no Focus RS coming... It's be nice to see a hotter Fiesta, legitimately wearing the RS badge as a car that is rallied! Even if the WRC team goes for the Puma, the R5 Fiesta will still be the predominate Ford being rallied around the world.

[pantealex]

How so - isnt the Puma too big as a standard bodyshell ?

Puma is Fiesta SUV
Puma has 10cm longer wheelbase than Fiesta but engines and transmission are same.
Totally 4,2M long (Focus is 20cm longer than Puma)

[pantealex]

As an aside, wasn't it the argument that there couldn't be a Fiesta RS because it'd too heavily eat into the sales of the Focus RS? Well now there's no Focus RS coming... It's be nice to see a hotter Fiesta, legitimately wearing the RS badge as a car that is rallied! Even if the WRC team goes for the Puma, the R5 Fiesta will still be the predominate Ford being rallied around the world.

Focus RS Hybrid is coming 2022

Ford has stopped selling Fiesta in many countries like in USA...

R5 is history, those cars are called Rally2 nowadays

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Focus RS Hybrid is coming 2022



As quoted earlier, the Mk4 Focus RS cancelled due costs for hybrid power ...

https://drivetribe.com/p/bad-news-2021-ford-focus-rs-canceled-OJkaafXwT6Cr8nojcV_Vhw?iid=WQ2trBhHSiWreNTf7o9PbA[/QUOTE]

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Puma is Fiesta SUV
Puma has 10cm longer wheelbase than Fiesta but engines and transmission are same.
Totally 4,2M long (Focus is 20cm longer than Puma)

We were talking about using a standard bodyshell. The Puma bodyshell may be shorter but its much taller.

[pantealex]

As quoted earlier, the Mk4 Focus RS cancelled due costs for hybrid power ...

https://drivetribe.com/p/bad-news-2021-ford-focus-rs-canceled-OJkaafXwT6Cr8nojcV_Vhw?iid=WQ2trBhHSiWreNTf7o9PbA[/QUOTE]

https://moottori.fi/ajoneuvot/jutut/seuraava-ford-focus-rs-aikaisintaan-2022/

My source is Autocar, yours is drivetribe.
We will see, your source is talking about 2021 model, I´m saying 2022...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They are both talking about the Mk4 RS.

Even your '2022 info' states:
'Although Jim Farley Chief Operating Officer of Ford, has removed administrative barriers to projects like RS, there is still the challenge of finding the resources needed to develop Focus RS in a company that is currently investing heavily in electrified cars. In total, Ford plans to release a total of 40 all-electric, charging hybrid and light hybrid models by 2022. The cost of the development work is estimated at approximately EUR 8.6 billion.'

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Colin Clark in his latest vlog reckons the Teams' decision to continue using the GREngine in 2022 may have been taken before the current pandemic and its future (financial) effects were apparent.

https://youtu.be/QEUc1w-tUfE

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Matton confident of WRC future...

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/matton-wrc-will-come-out-of-crisis-stronger-than-ever

[AndyRAC]

It's good that he's optimistic about the future, I suppose he has to. But, nobody has any idea what the fall out from CoVid-19 will be. There will likely be a large economic downturn......and all sports will face challenges; who is to know what sponsors, manufacturers will decide to pull the plug.
I think governing bodies, series promoters may need to be more flexible, and maybe even calendars are re-arranged. It's unlikely things will just carry on as before...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkM49Gg21O8

Formula E boss Alejandro Agag on the future of motorsport, and FE following CoVid-19.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Optimism is one thing but thinking WRC will be stronger than before is pushing it a bit.

It sounds like just keeping the 3 current teams is the best possibility.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Matton interview on the compromises:
https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-inside-line-on-wrcs-2022-tech-rules

[Fast Eddie WRC]

New Toyota Yaris Cross: new small SUV offers hybrid and AWD...

'Base car' for the 2022 Yaris WRC ??

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWSUWbfWkAA9pqo?format=jpg&name=medium

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/toyota/yaris-cross-hybrid/

[pantealex]

I was just linking to same car
https://www.motor1.com/news/414278/2021-toyota-yaris-cross-revealed/

btw.Eddie was sadly right about new Focus RS, Ford has officially canceled it :(

[NickRally]

It has been said here, but to re-iterate, love them or loathe them, with so many small SUV's fighting for piece of the market, they can well provide a new lease of life for the WRC and I can only give that the thumbs up.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC has for years been about promoting the brands, not the actual car taking part. The rally cars dont really reflect their road cars but look great and are fast and spectacular. This is why we watch them.

If manufacturer's start using small ugly electric SUV's for rallying they will just lose the rally fans and the marketing publicity. No-one aspires to drive a small SUV.

[T16]

WRC has for years been about promoting the brands, not the actual car taking part. The rally cars dont really reflect their road cars but look great and are fast and spectacular. This is why we watch them.

If manufacturer's start using small ugly electric SUV's for rallying they will just lose the rally fans and the marketing publicity. No-one aspires to drive a small SUV.

I have zero intention of driving a Yaris, but I still watch rallying.
The next gen isn’t electric BTW... it’s going to be hybrid.
I think you’re wrong about the series losing the fans too, you might not choose to watch it anymore, but I think I’ll be one of many who still watch it, whatever guise it takes.
Let’s face it, even if they do someday end up using electric cars, they’ll still be as fast as hell to watch.

[cali]

I even have zero intentions of buying a Toyota ever and still watch rallying :D
But on a serious note while reliable Toyota makes really boring cars for my liking

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[pantealex]

I even have zero intentions of buying a Toyota ever and still watch rallying :D
But on a serious note while reliable Toyota makes really boring cars for my liking


+1

(HJ 80/100 with 4.2 TD or V8 and Celica4wd/Supra is/was good ToyOta)

[Rallyper]

I remember going from GrB to GrA in 1987.

First I thought this will be boooring. But lost interest? Nope.

And it wasn´t boring. Exciting as ever, and we all know what developments came out...

[AnttiL]

I remember going from GrB to GrA in 1987.

First I thought this will be boooring. But lost interest? Nope.

And it wasn´t boring. Exciting as ever, and we all know what developments came out...

The change between 1987 and 1986 would be the same as going to R2/Rally4 cars for next year.

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/tanak-2022-affordability-more-important-than-fancy-cars/

This Tänak interview is weird. He says he wants to bring the costs down but isn't ready to let go of any of the things which make up the cost (engine, transmission, aero, performance) and still talks about adding hybrid and space frame or reducing weight, which won't be free...

[satnav]

No body likes change , that's normal but looking back as Rallyper says , the change from GrB to GrA was a dramatic one that kept evolving after that the next big one was from 2 liter to 1600 , change is always frowned on but it is usually for the better.

[doubled1978]

No body likes change , that's normal but looking back as Rallyper says , the change from GrB to GrA was a dramatic one that kept evolving after that the next big one was from 2 liter to 1600 , change is always frowned on but it is usually for the better.

Group B to Group A was initially bad, but became great over the next couple of years. 1987 itself was pretty rubbish with the cars etc, but most of that was because of the sudden end to Group B, if 1987 had allowed Group B cars with reduced power/better safety and then gone Group A in 1988 it would have been a better transition with more decent cars ready to compete.
From 2.0 to 1.6 I actually thought was better, the cars sounded better as they revved higher and they didn’t look any slower to watch. We only had Ford and Citroen anyway, so we didn’t lose any manufactures and by the end of that year the Mini was running, with Hyundai and VW in the wings...
I think others have said before on here, new regs are a good time for new companies to enter as they don’t have to compete against teams who have used the same regulations for some time already, everyone has learning to do.

[T16]

Group B to Group A was initially bad, but became great over the next couple of years. 1987 itself was pretty rubbish with the cars etc, but most of that was because of the sudden end to Group B, if 1987 had allowed Group B cars with reduced power/better safety and then gone Group A in 1988 it would have been a better transition with more decent cars ready to compete.
From 2.0 to 1.6 I actually thought was better, the cars sounded better as they revved higher and they didn’t look any slower to watch. We only had Ford and Citroen anyway, so we didn’t lose any manufactures and by the end of that year the Mini was running, with Hyundai and VW in the wings...
I think others have said before on here, new regs are a good time for new companies to enter as they don’t have to compete against teams who have used the same regulations for some time already, everyone has learning to do.


Agreed! Hopefully it will encourage more manufacturer interest too.
Shame that some 'fans' say they / others will walk away even before a reg change has taken effect. I guess it shows they aren't proper fans in the first place.
As long as something is being driven flat out through a forest, by the best in the world, I'll always be there with a grin on my face.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tanak on the future...

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/tanak-2022-affordability-more-important-than-fancy-cars/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I have zero intention of driving a Yaris, but I still watch rallying.
The next gen isn’t electric BTW... it’s going to be hybrid.
I think you’re wrong about the series losing the fans too, you might not choose to watch it anymore, but I think I’ll be one of many who still watch it, whatever guise it takes.
Let’s face it, even if they do someday end up using electric cars, they’ll still be as fast as hell to watch.

Hardcore fans who would watch anything might still watch ugly SUV's but not the general public who wont see any excitement in it. Therefore a big source of publicity will be lost.

And electric is the next step and probably sooner than you think as hybrid is already 'old tech'.

Real fans have stuck with rally through thick and thin and rule changes, but ugly, silent, electric SUV's is more than a change from Gp B to Gp A or 2.0 to 1.6.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Agreed! Hopefully it will encourage more manufacturer interest too.
Shame that some 'fans' say they / others will walk away even before a reg change has taken effect. I guess it shows they aren't proper fans in the first place.
As long as something is being driven flat out through a forest, by the best in the world, I'll always be there with a grin on my face.

In other words you'll watch anything... great argument.

The best in the world wont drive just 'anything' though. Ogier will be gone and Neuville has already said he's not happy with the new cars. Tanak also says no to WRC being R5-based...

[pantealex]

Suzuki SX4 WRC (and Ignis S1600) was just like those "SUV" which are now coming.

I have never heard that someone has stopped watching rallies because of those Suzuki´s

I don´t care which models they are using.

[Rallyper]

To me I can watch Pumas or new SUV Yaris or whatelse brands come up with SUV. As long as they looks like rallycars and - SOUND like rallycars. With electric silence on the stages I maybe should start rethinking...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

As long as they looks like rallycars and - SOUND like rallycars. With electric silence on the stages I maybe should start rethinking...

Can an SUV look like a rally car as we know them, especially on tarmac ?

Yes, noise is at least 50% of the spectacle and I doubt it can be replicated well-enough artificially. Plus what would be the point in it. Maybe just to warn fans ? It's a big issue.

[Barreis]

Suzuki SX4 WRC (and Ignis S1600) was just like those "SUV" which are now coming.

I have never heard that someone has stopped watching rallies because of those Suzuki´s

I don´t care which models they are using.

both versions of Ignis were cool to watch on the stages. Daniel Carlsson was great with that car (smaller version)

[Franky]

Can an SUV look like a rally car as we know them, especially on tarmac ?

Isn't the Mini Countryman an SUV?

[Rallyper]

Can an SUV look like a rally car as we know them, especially on tarmac ?

Yes, noise is at least 50% of the spectacle and I doubt it can be replicated well-enough artificially. Plus what would be the point in it. Maybe just to warn fans ? It's a big issue.

I would say Citroen C3 almost looks like SUV in street version...

[deephouse]

Wow, teams will sure made cars that will look great. Even if they will be using SUV platforms. Accept it. It is coming. And with Hybrid too. I will be surely watching and I am happy to see positive rumours about Solberg and new team coming. I really hope so, they or anyone won't ruin it before it even starts.

[AnttiL]

Hardcore fans who would watch anything might still watch ugly SUV's but not the general public who wont see any excitement in it. .

What is this general public who follows rallying? It's a niche sport.

Also, not everyone follows rallying because they're car enthusiasts. You know how crazy I'm about rallying, but I don't even own a car!

I don't know how it's in other countries, but I would bet 75% of Rally Finland audience don't follow rallying at all except during Rally Finland. And there's a good percentage of those who pay the ticket but don't even follow the results, they just have a good party like going to a festival. They will sooner notice a change in beer brand served in Kakaristo rather than car models.

[AndyRAC]

What is this general public who follows rallying? It's a niche sport.



Yeah, the mythical 'casual fan' - who doesn't really exist. I remember a discussion on this years ago on Midweek Motorsport. Concentrate on your core support - if you gain extra fans, then good. But never alienate the core fans = bad move. Motorsport is niche - and rallying is even more of a niche in motorsport.

[T16]

Hardcore fans who would watch anything might still watch ugly SUV's but not the general public who wont see any excitement in it. Therefore a big source of publicity will be lost.

And electric is the next step and probably sooner than you think as hybrid is already 'old tech'.

Real fans have stuck with rally through thick and thin and rule changes, but ugly, silent, electric SUV's is more than a change from Gp B to Gp A or 2.0 to 1.6.

Hybrid IS the next step, not electric. The next regulations in rallying are simply not for EVs. Please do your homework.

Can you back up your claims that a 'big source of publicity Will be lost' or is that you simply speculating? Look at it this way, if you are correct and there is a big sector of the 'public' that are into rallying and it is them who are buying the road-going SUVs (because, lets face it, there's plenty getting sold) then why on earth wouldn't they want to watch them as rallycars??

[T16]

In other words you'll watch anything... great argument.

The best in the world wont drive just 'anything' though. Ogier will be gone and Neuville has already said he's not happy with the new cars. Tanak also says no to WRC being R5-based...

I am saying I will watch whatever the rule makers deem to be the WRC car category (or whatever it is rebranded as). I think that's fair enough, as a rally fan. Shame you seem to be a fan, but can't support M-Sport using a Puma or whatever. Do you honestly think it's going to look crap and not be entertaining? It will be a full-spec rallycar, built by one of the best teams in the world and driven by the top drivers in the world... of course it's going to be spectacular.
Sorry Eddie, but it shows your true colours when it comes to this sport if you are going to jump ship just because of a tiny bit of different bodywork. pathetic TBH.

And your argument about who will drive it doesn't have much weight behind it:

Ogier is (potentially) retiring at the end of this year, so the next gen being SUV is nothing to do with whether he will drive or not.
Neuville said 'he's not happy and Tanak 'says no'.... OK - jog on then boys and we'll have plenty of takers who can do the same job thanks. So no, I really don't see them talking away from their multi-million paid jobs, just because the regs aren't to their liking. They'll still be there.