WRC future

[doubled1978]

Yeah, the mythical 'casual fan' - who doesn't really exist. I remember a discussion on this years ago on Midweek Motorsport. Concentrate on your core support - if you gain extra fans, then good. But never alienate the core fans = bad move. Motorsport is niche - and rallying is even more of a niche in motorsport.

I agree that Rallying is niche, but I think that it benefits from that as well, as it’s not circuit racing and offers something very different to everything else.
That appeals to both fans and competitors.
Everything gets measured against football which is unrealistic, in recent years I think the WRC has done a good job of working it’s own angles. It’s never again going to be a threat to F1 globally as it once was, and it’s not trying to be...
The biggest challenge to Motorsport as a whole is how it adapts to full electrification in line with car industry, Formula E has had decent success, but it is very slow and dull and if that doesn’t change soon the novelty will soon wear off to the public.

[T16]

I agree that Rallying is niche, but I think that it benefits from that as well, as it’s not circuit racing and offers something very different to everything else.
That appeals to both fans and competitors.
Everything gets measured against football which is unrealistic, in recent years I think the WRC has done a good job of working it’s own angles. It’s never again going to be a threat to F1 globally as it once was, and it’s not trying to be...
The biggest challenge to Motorsport as a whole is how it adapts to full electrification in line with car industry, Formula E has had decent success, but it is very slow and dull and if that doesn’t change soon the novelty will soon wear off to the public.

Biggest (OK - short term) challenge may well be adapting to living with Covid. Just thinking outside the box a bit here, but rallying may well be allowed to get going again sooner that a lot of other spectator sports, given the 'natural' social distancing the sport hosts already. If it can get up and running when other motorsports are working out how to run in front of a packed crowd, it may just do the sport some good.. Hopefully it will make up for all those 'fans' who jump ship because of a bit of a bodywork change.
Complete speculation of course, but the sport could really do with a little something right now (and that's before the Covid).

[doubled1978]

Biggest (OK - short term) challenge may well be adapting to living with Covid. Just thinking outside the box a bit here, but rallying may well be allowed to get going again sooner that a lot of other spectator sports, given the 'natural' social distancing the sport hosts already. If it can get up and running when other motorsports are working out how to run in front of a packed crowd, it may just do the sport some good.. Hopefully it will make up for all those 'fans' who jump ship because of a bit of a bodywork change.
Complete speculation of course, but the sport could really do with a little something right now (and that's before the Covid).

Yes, Covid is of course the short term challenge for everything, and I agree with you and have had the same conversation with my wife, that WRC might be in better position to get going with a crowd sooner due to the natural ability to social distance more easily.
The biggest issue I suppose is that unlike a stadium or circuit, that can be closed and policed, a rally is very difficult stop people getting in if they really want to, so does that in itself prevent the events going ahead if they could have done behind closed doors?
I think in the case of WRGB, behind closed doors isn’t an option as they rely on ticket sales anyway.
I’m interested to see how Silverstone is going to be recompensed for running 1 or 2 Grand Prix behind closed doors should that happen, as it has the same issue, needs ticket sales.

[T16]

Yes, Covid is of course the short term challenge for everything, and I agree with you and have had the same conversation with my wife, that WRC might be in better position to get going with a crowd sooner due to the natural ability to social distance more easily.
The biggest issue I suppose is that unlike a stadium or circuit, that can be closed and policed, a rally is very difficult stop people getting in if they really want to, so does that in itself prevent the events going ahead if they could have done behind closed doors?
I think in the case of WRGB, behind closed doors isn’t an option as they rely on ticket sales anyway.
I’m interested to see how Silverstone is going to be recompensed for running 1 or 2 Grand Prix behind closed doors should that happen, as it has the same issue, needs ticket sales.

I'm guessing that F1 will fund the Silverstone rounds? I'm still in two minds about how this will work... won't they need a huge amount of medical personnel to be present and can this be done without pulling from the NHS in the slightest? If there's the tiniest amount of bad publicity associated with using NHS staff for motorsport in the current situation, I can't see it going ahead. Saying that, I'd trade watching ten GPs to get to see a couple of rallies and a road race.

[AnttiL]

Yeah, the mythical 'casual fan' - who doesn't really exist. I remember a discussion on this years ago on Midweek Motorsport. Concentrate on your core support - if you gain extra fans, then good. But never alienate the core fans = bad move. Motorsport is niche - and rallying is even more of a niche in motorsport.

The only casual fan I can think of is the one who sits in his living room on a weekend afternoon and opens the TV and sees rallying, and decides not to change the channel.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I am saying I will watch whatever the rule makers deem to be the WRC car category (or whatever it is rebranded as). I think that's fair enough, as a rally fan. Shame you seem to be a fan, but can't support M-Sport using a Puma or whatever. Do you honestly think it's going to look crap and not be entertaining? It will be a full-spec rallycar, built by one of the best teams in the world and driven by the top drivers in the world... of course it's going to be spectacular.
Sorry Eddie, but it shows your true colours when it comes to this sport if you are going to jump ship just because of a tiny bit of different bodywork. pathetic TBH.

And your argument about who will drive it doesn't have much weight behind it:

Ogier is (potentially) retiring at the end of this year, so the next gen being SUV is nothing to do with whether he will drive or not.
Neuville said 'he's not happy and Tanak 'says no'.... OK - jog on then boys and we'll have plenty of takers who can do the same job thanks. So no, I really don't see them talking away from their multi-million paid jobs, just because the regs aren't to their liking. They'll still be there.

You're attitude is actually the pathetic one saying that you will accept and watch whatever they put out there.

What sort of argument is that on the future of rally and what the fans want to see ? 'Err OK just do what you like and we'll put up with it'. How will that go down with the other fans who desperately want to see something that looks and sounds like a rally car ?

I'm not jumping ship you prat. I said the general public wont get into rallying if the cars are really ugly and sound shit. M-Sport or whoever will follow the (Ford) marketing and the engineers wont get a big say. Fans need to bring their views and put some pressure on.

The future of WRC is at stake here and rolling over and saying 'anything is fine by me' is no way to get what fans really want.

[doubled1978]

I'm guessing that F1 will fund the Silverstone rounds? I'm still in two minds about how this will work... won't they need a huge amount of medical personnel to be present and can this be done without pulling from the NHS in the slightest? If there's the tiniest amount of bad publicity associated with using NHS staff for motorsport in the current situation, I can't see it going ahead. Saying that, I'd trade watching ten GPs to get to see a couple of rallies and a road race.

I presume they will have to, or at the very least waive the hosting fees as the F1 business model is based around the circuit owners making their money from ticket sales.
I think they are basing their tentative plans around the virus being suppressed enough by then that their is enough capacity within the emergency services that the events can run. The premier league is having the same discussions, but for them they have to try and complete around 100 matches to finish the season, and to get through that without any infections sounds difficult to me.
WRGB has the advantage of being quite late in the year, so unless something goes terribly wrong with virus transmission, I would hope that it should be clear to run.
I enjoy F1, sportscars, GT’s etc as well as rallying, and I live a stones throw from Silverstone so I usually go and watch several events there through the year.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Here's a quote from a Focus ST forum I use...

DanJ1992
15 Apr 2020
As a big m-sport fan I really hope they dont make a switch to the Puma, its flippin horendous...

[T16]

Here's a quote from a Focus ST forum I use...

DanJ1992
15 Apr 2020
As a big m-sport fan I really hope they dont make a switch to the Puma, its flippin horendous...

That settles it then.

[doubled1978]

You're attitude is actually the pathetic one saying that you will accept and watch whatever they put out there.

What sort of argument is that on the future of rally and what the fans want to see ? 'Err OK just do what you like and we'll put up with it'. How will that go down with the other fans who desperately want to see something that looks and sounds like a rally car ?

I'm not jumping ship you prat. I said the general public wont get into rallying if the cars are really ugly and sound shit. M-Sport or whoever will follow the (Ford) marketing and the engineers wont get a big say. Fans need to bring their views and put some pressure on.

The future of WRC is at stake here and rolling over and saying 'anything is fine by me' is no way to get what fans really want.

I have my doubts that the wishes of the fans will have much impact on what the future of WRC looks like.
If Hyundai/Ford or whoever decide they what to compete with a car badged as Kona/Puma or whatever, they will and if we as fans then decide we don’t like that, and don’t watch, then they won’t compete at all.
I think with the announcement that they will keep the GRE engines, and the fact that the body panels will be able to be scaled to fit, will safeguard the sound and visuals in the most part. I think the WRC have been conscious that these factors are important to the WRC spectacle and have arranged the rules to facilitate this, while listening to the needs of the brands who want to promote their vehicles within the sport.
If the WRC starts demanding they only want sporty coupes or whatever then I think very quickly it’ll all be over.

[T16]

You're attitude is actually the pathetic one saying that you will accept and watch whatever they put out there.

What sort of argument is that on the future of rally and what the fans want to see ? 'Err OK just do what you like and we'll put up with it'. How will that go down with the other fans who desperately want to see something that looks and sounds like a rally car ?

I'm not jumping ship you prat. I said the general public wont get into rallying if the cars are really ugly and sound shit. M-Sport or whoever will follow the (Ford) marketing and the engineers wont get a big say. Fans need to bring their views and put some pressure on.

The future of WRC is at stake here and rolling over and saying 'anything is fine by me' is no way to get what fans really want.

But if the new cars are as still seriously fast and only in your opinion, sorry in your and Dan’s opinions, do they look crap, than what’s the issue?
You should support your M-Sport team a Bit more, no matter what car the my choose to run.
Eddie, when was the last time you watched a current WRC car live?
You seem so determined that the appearance of a car is detrimental to the sport gaining more fans... what evidence have you based this theory on? (Please don’t tell me you did a poll with just you and Dan in the fast ford forum)?
Have you considered the series could change in other ways to attract more fans? Would be interesting to hear your conclusions if you have, rather than just hearing you whining all the time about probably a shape change of less than 10cm, especially when the thing goes past in a forest so quick that you haven’t a clue what it is, most of the time.... that is, if you do actually go and watch the sport.

[the sniper]

Here's a quote from a Focus ST forum I use...

DanJ1992
15 Apr 2020
As a big m-sport fan I really hope they dont make a switch to the Puma, its flippin horendous...

Please, lets not get back into posting quotes from random nobodies from random forums.

I'm open to the idea that the move towards mini SUVs does nothing to help the perception of the WRC amongst a potentially wider audience, particularly in places like the UK where a huge audience has been lost over the years. Here we definitely hear from lapsed fans bemoaning the move away from various things, be it Escorts, 'cars that look like ones in the showroom', Group B, Subarus & Evos, the lardy 2ltr WRC cars... Arguably all those people were already lost and dismissive of the current hatchback era, but that's where we are and it's been great. But at the end of the day, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

Personally in theory I'd really rather them not go to small SUVs (especially not large ones!), but I can see it not being too bad if they're (as I expect they would be) designed sympathetically with the scaling to de-SUV the appearance of them. As has been said, if a similar affect is achieved to the Mini Countryman and Suzuki SX4, it'll be fine. I can see the Puma lending itself particularly well to this, as it could just end up looking like a smaller focus.

Another advantage is that it'll add variety, which is what a lot of older fans complain is lacking compared to the good old days. It'd differentiate the classes. Rally 1 would be mainly mini-SUVs, maybe a Subaru saloon. Larger cars. Rally 2 would be for more production looking hatchbacks.

[pantealex]

I´m one of those "older fans"
I like different cars.

[T16]

So come on Eddie, a few questions unanswered...

Have you watched a current spec car live in a stage?
What data are you using to base your comments on regarding the general public not seeing any excitement in SUVs and therefore a big source of publicity being lost? Have you had access to a poll or something that draws these conclusions?
Also your insistence that 'the best in the world won't just drive anything'.. apart from Ogier leaving, which is definitely a planned retirement, which other drivers will be leaving when the new generation of cars come in?

It would be really good to hear what you have to say on the above as it might help to make your points on SUVs and the future of the sport easier to understand.

If the whole SUV thing is just your opinion, then that's cool, but you should maybe hold off making statements along the lines of it being something that will cause the series to lose fans if you have absolutely nothing to back it up (apart from a quote from Dan on the fast cars forum).

[NickRally]

Guys, on a slightly different subject, have there been any more discussions to permit the homologation of rally vehicles by independent teams?

[NickRally]

Suzuki SX4 WRC (and Ignis S1600) was just like those "SUV" which are now coming.

I have never heard that someone has stopped watching rallies because of those Suzuki´s

I don´t care which models they are using.

I quite like the current Suzuki Ignis and with a bit of scaling up on the wheelbase, as it is on the short side off the shelf, I would love to try my engineering skills in turning it into a proper rally car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So come on Eddie, a few questions unanswered...

Have you watched a current spec car live in a stage?
What data are you using to base your comments on regarding the general public not seeing any excitement in SUVs and therefore a big source of publicity being lost? Have you had access to a poll or something that draws these conclusions?
Also your insistence that 'the best in the world won't just drive anything'.. apart from Ogier leaving, which is definitely a planned retirement, which other drivers will be leaving when the new generation of cars come in?

It would be really good to hear what you have to say on the above as it might help to make your points on SUVs and the future of the sport easier to understand.

If the whole SUV thing is just your opinion, then that's cool, but you should maybe hold off making statements along the lines of it being something that will cause the series to lose fans if you have absolutely nothing to back it up (apart from a quote from Dan on the fast cars forum).

Yes I've seen the current-spec cars running on Rally GB and as a member of the M-Sport Supporters Club I also had access behind the scenes at the SP. Chatting to many fellow Club member's it turned out that nearly all of us had a Fiesta ST, Focus ST or other high performance car. The fact that there was or had been a rally version of their car was a big thing to them. I never heard anyone say they have a boring SUV.

From 2017 the crowds were absolutely huge - the biggest I can remember since the McRae/Burns days. But listening to them, clearly a lot weren't hardcore fans but they had turned out in numbers because they had seen and heard how spectacular the 2017 cars looked compared to the previous generation.

So it seems clear to me that it is vital for rally cars to look amazing, sound amazing, and be 'inspirational' in people wanting to dream of owning a fast car a bit like them.

The hot-hatchback has been a massive market here for years and I dont see a big change in appetite for many wanting the 'hot-SUV'. A hot-hatch is usually the dream car of the youngster for driving fun or the rally/racing enthusiast. Such people have with little requirement for a big, spacious car like an SUV. They dont dream of owning an SUV .

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The recently-revealed Puma ST is going to have the same engine as the Fiesta ST. But how many buyers are going to want one instead of the Fiesta when it's looking like this, weighing more, costing more and driving worse, just because there'll be a WRC-version ?

https://cdn1.carbuyer.co.uk/sites/carbuyer_d7/files/styles/16x9_720/public/2020/02/ford_puma_st_012.jpg?itok=BZ0TO3FZ

[Barreis]

nice looking car

[AndyRAC]

I don't like SUVs, I think they're an absolute blight on the roads.....however, I actually like the Puma ST, and could be tempted. I don't really want them in the WRC, in my view, they're more suitable for RallyRaid/ Dakar/Extreme-E type series. But, and if it means we get another 2-3 Manufacturers, then I think it's a price worth paying. The WRC desperately needs more than the current number of manufacturers.....and I'd really hope Ford will commit properly.

[Rallyper]

It´s a new kind of SUV´s. Not like the old ones developed from huge Volvos or BMW´s.

New ones are slim, nice looking and will fit in very well in new WRC rules. End of discussion. :)

[Franky]

Per, no modern car is slim. Sadly.

[T16]

Yes I've seen the current-spec cars running on Rally GB and as a member of the M-Sport Supporters Club I also had access behind the scenes at the SP. Chatting to many fellow Club member's it turned out that nearly all of us had a Fiesta ST, Focus ST or other high performance car. The fact that there was or had been a rally version of their car was a big thing to them. I never heard anyone say they have a boring SUV.

From 2017 the crowds were absolutely huge - the biggest I can remember since the McRae/Burns days. But listening to them, clearly a lot weren't hardcore fans but they had turned out in numbers because they had seen and heard how spectacular the 2017 cars looked compared to the previous generation.

So it seems clear to me that it is vital for rally cars to look amazing, sound amazing, and be 'inspirational' in people wanting to dream of owning a fast car a bit like them.

The hot-hatchback has been a massive market here for years and I dont see a big change in appetite for many wanting the 'hot-SUV'. A hot-hatch is usually the dream car of the youngster for driving fun or the rally/racing enthusiast. Such people have with little requirement for a big, spacious car like an SUV. They dont dream of owning an SUV .

Out off interest, did you watch in a forest stage - which one if so?

Don't agree with 2017 being busy because a load of 'non-hardcore' fans turning out to see the new cars, I was there, I remember it very well and it was clearly because Elfyn was about to have his day and half of Wales decided to go and cheer him on.

Eddie, if you go as a M-Sport fan to one of their promo days at a rally, there is a high chance that the other M-Sporters will also be performance Ford drivers too. Lets face it, to be an official M-Sporter, you're probably going to be into fast fords too and that's fair enough, but it's not representative. So with that in mind, what have you based your claims on that SUV's will be detrimental to the championship.... You still haven't shown any evidence, other than what your opinion is.

And also, SUVs aren't that big now.

I guess seeing the comments just above this one show that at least a few of the fans on this forum don't give a monkey's about SUVs, if it means the champiohship will potentially be in better health, through more Manu interest.

It all sounds to me like you're probably just a bit gutted yourself about the change - you've literally got nothing to back up your claims, aside from one chap on a fast ford forum. It's a shame you can't see that it might be what the series needs to survive.

Can't see where you replied to my point asking you about why you're so certain the top drivers aren't going to be around to drive the cars too (Like I said, were you aware already that Ogier was already planning on retiring?).

[Rallyper]

Per, no modern car is slim. Sadly.

Well, yes SUV´s are. As said, compared to the big older Volvo XC90´s and BMW X5...

So, there are SUV´s and SUV´s if you understand what I mean. ;)

(Btw - isn´t Citroen C3 a kind of SUV?)

[Rally Hokkaido]

I think perhaps members need to understand the auto industry marketing jargon better. SUV and Crossover-SUV (CUV) are two different types/segments. I believe the Puma is the latter type. Typically, X-overs are built on a B-segment hatchback base, some even have near identical bodywork. The general public have been steadily educated to visualize SUVs, and later CUVs, as desirable vehicles that could enhance their lifestyle (even though many will never drive them off tarmac!). So manufacturers these days are targeting this growing and profitable segment which is easier to promote than by building a hot-hatch flagship to promote B-segment sales.

[bomber21]

We do not have choices. Motorsport and especially WRC is in trouble. If we want our passion to survive and attract manufacturers, we must accept whatever cars will serve this purpose.
We need to keep this sport alive.

[wyler]

guys, are we still arguing about a fiesta with new lights and name, right? :D

[AnttiL]

I could see this same debate happening in 1989. "What? Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru are going to go rallying on a big sedan? Who wants to watch that?"

[HKSjbg]

I could see this same debate happening in 1989. "What? Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru are going to go rallying on a big sedan? Who wants to watch that?"

Then in ‘93: “What? Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru are going to go rallying with smaller hatchbacks and saloons? What even is an ‘Impreza’?”

[bomber21]

It is unbelievable how much time changes things. The Impreza, the car name that is connected more than anything else on this planet with rallying, is now a ridiculously slow car that noone buys.

[OHL]

It is unbelievable how much time changes things. The Impreza, the car name that is connected more than anything else on this planet with rallying, is now a ridiculously slow car that noone buys.

Subaru decided to split out the Impreza and STI lines for branding purposes but they are still very much "Impreza."
Today, you can buy more performance models of the Impreza, in more places in the world than at any point in Subaru's history.
So, I'm not sure what you mean by this?


Remember the Audi 200, Skoda Octavia, Subaru Legacy, etc? Yeah, those days happened and we'll get over this too.
The Puma is hardly a traditional SUV, at least no more so than the Mini. Rallying at the top level is a marketing exercise and somebody has to pay for it so it makes sense to follow the consumer. CUV's are selling incredibly well. Both Hyundai and Toyota are also launching cars in this segment.

[bomber21]

I agree with you. I already wrote that I love this sport so much and I want to be able to travel the world to watch WRC rallies. I do not care how the cars would look like, if they are small SUVs or not, I just want manufacturers to join and competition. These are enough for the development of the sport.

About Impreza, I meant the latest 1.6 model which is the slowest and pricier car among its competitors.

[T16]

I agree with you. I already wrote that I love this sport so much and I want to be able to travel the world to watch WRC rallies. I do not care how the cars would look like, if they are small SUVs or not, I just want manufacturers to join and competition. These are enough for the development of the sport.

About Impreza, I meant the latest 1.6 model which is the slowest and pricier car among its competitors.

Fantastic post. We just need to keep the current manus and hopefully add some more.
We’re honestly not in a position to pick and choose at the moment.
The cars will always be exciting.
Get put off because of a small body shape change... you’re no fan of rallying, simple as that.

[Rallyper]

Fantastic post. We just need to keep the current manus and hopefully add some more.
We’re honestly not in a position to pick and choose at the moment.
The cars will always be exciting.
Get put off because of a small body shape change... you’re no fan of rallying, simple as that.

10+

[OHL]

I agree with you. I already wrote that I love this sport so much and I want to be able to travel the world to watch WRC rallies. I do not care how the cars would look like, if they are small SUVs or not, I just want manufacturers to join and competition. These are enough for the development of the sport.

About Impreza, I meant the latest 1.6 model which is the slowest and pricier car among its competitors.

Great!

The standard Impreza has always been slow with road noise, awful interior, etc. but was always good value for money, at least in AWD form. Sounds like they are trying to take it upmarket now with associated price tag.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This has gone down well in the Service Park !?

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-common-sense-cost-cut-with-dirtfishs-support/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fantastic post. We just need to keep the current manus and hopefully add some more.
We’re honestly not in a position to pick and choose at the moment.
The cars will always be exciting.
Get put off because of a small body shape change... you’re no fan of rallying, simple as that.

I'm not going to be 'put off' or stop watching WRC if/when the cars change. After over 30 years and many previous changes that isnt going to happen with any rally fan.

You have missed my point (as usual) that this is about what rally fans WANT and what they would PREFER in the future.

If cars are going to change (IMO for the worse) in terms of looks, speed or noise then I am within my rights to say I'm not happy or looking forward to them.

This isnt the same as saying I'm going to give up on rallying.

And it just annoys me when T16 says that he doesnt care what the future cars are like and he will watch whatever they stick out there, and he has no preference or desire for something better (like we have now).

[AnttiL]

This has gone down well in the Service Park !?

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-common-sense-cost-cut-with-dirtfishs-support/

TL;DR: George Donaldson and the whole DirtFish staff wants R5 to be the main class of WRC

[T16]

I'm not going to be 'put off' or stop watching WRC if/when the cars change. After over 30 years and many previous changes that isnt going to happen with any rally fan.

You have missed my point (as usual) that this is about what rally fans WANT and what they would PREFER in the future.

If cars are going to change (IMO for the worse) in terms of looks, speed or noise then I am within my rights to say I'm not happy or looking forward to them.

This isnt the same as saying I'm going to give up on rallying.

And it just annoys me when T16 says that he doesnt care what the future cars are like and he will watch whatever they stick out there, and he has no preference or desire for something better (like we have now).

I haven’t missed your point at all.... I think you have missed mine.
You are claiming that you know what rally fans want (no SUVs) and that introducing them would be detrimental to the sport (via lost fans) See, I understand your point.

I am asking you what gives you the evidence to speak in such general terms about what rally fans want? I understand you aren’t a fan of the SUV, but what evidence have you got that that view is shared on such a scale that it is going to be detrimental to the sport?

Also, I asked why you seem so certain that the top drivers won’t want to drive these cars?

And what about wales 2017? Did you forget about Elfyn?

Which stages have you watched at too?

[the sniper]

This is getting a bit tiresome now...


I haven’t missed your point at all.... I think you have missed mine.
You are claiming that you know what rally fans want (no SUVs) and that introducing them would be detrimental to the sport (via lost fans) See, I understand your point.

I am asking you what gives you the evidence to speak in such general terms about what rally fans want? I understand you aren’t a fan of the SUV, but what evidence have you got that that view is shared on such a scale that it is going to be detrimental to the sport?

If I had to guess I'd imagine that the move to SUV/'CUV' won't be warmly welcomed, but will have little impact on the (already now niche) following of the sport, particularly if their performance is similar to the current level. Those who gave up on rallying because of the cars used gave up a long time ago. I do believe that '17 cars brought some of these people back in though. Given that you can't provide 'evidence' that it'll have no impact, what evidence should Eddie provide?


Also, I asked why you seem so certain that the top drivers won’t want to drive these cars?

Well Neuville has said "I don't know if I'm really interested to drive these cars but we're going to find out."


And what about wales 2017? Did you forget about Elfyn?

I'm afraid this is where I completely disagree with you over Eddie. Were there more Welsh locals out in 2017 than normal just to cheer on Elfyn? I'd say so. But I have no doubt that the '17 cars made a far greater impact on increased spectator numbers and general following of the sport in 2017, and even more so in subsequent years. I've had numerous discussions with random people out on stages over the last few years, with people who either hadn't closely followed the sport or attended stages since the Group B days or McRae/Burns era. Not one of them said they'd come out to see Elfyn, they all came back to see these cars. Literally the only person I've spoke to who came especially to see Elfyn was the young son (under the age of 10) of a local guy I got talking to in Gwydyr in 2018. Mintexmemory from this forum can probably vouch for this as he was with me!

I also know a few lapsed fans, to greater or lesser extents, at my work who have followed the sport. I know one attended a Rally GB stage in 2017 after decades away because he wanted to see these cars. Another went to a lot of rallies (national and GB) for years up until around the early 2000s, I'm tempting him back on the basis of seeing these cars. Though he was far more interested in the sound of the Roger Albert Clark than my sales pitch of Rally GB! Additionally, for the few casual observers at my work, it's the hype and videos they've seen on the internet of these cars which has caught their attention. I doubt they could pick Elfyn Evans out of a line up Welshmen...

That's not to write off the SUVs/CUVs, but they'll have to be done right to achieve the same effect.


Which stages have you watched at too?

What's the point of this question? I haven't seen you posting much about attending National rallies, but I wouldn't use that against you to say you're not a proper rally fan...

[AnttiL]

Can we leave the personal battles behind and move over to something else? Maybe even *sigh* discuss George Donaldson's idea of moving to R5's.

What Donaldson suggests is that they put a bigger restrictor to get more horsepower, and just reinforce the parts which wouldn't withstand the increased power. I'm not saying it's impossible, but sure not as simple as he makes it sound like.

If we think further, would Skoda join in as a manufacturer team? We know how great that car is, how much better than all the other cars. And would Toyota just drop out for a year while developing their R5 car? Would their drivers go to Skoda then? And what kind of a super team that would be...repeat of the VW era?

[satnav]

Can we leave the personal battles behind and move over to something else? Maybe even *sigh* discuss George Donaldson's idea of moving to R5's.

What Donaldson suggests is that they put a bigger restrictor to get more horsepower, and just reinforce the parts which wouldn't withstand the increased power. I'm not saying it's impossible, but sure not as simple as he makes it sound like.

If we think further, would Skoda join in as a manufacturer team? We know how great that car is, how much better than all the other cars. And would Toyota just drop out for a year while developing their R5 car? Would their drivers go to Skoda then? And what kind of a super team that would be...repeat of the VW era?

Don't forget VW already have an R5

[AnttiL]

Don't forget VW already have an R5

But they don't have an active factory team, and VW has decided not to support any ICE motorsports anymore (although not sure if that applies to Skoda as well?)

[the sniper]

Can we leave the personal battles behind and move over to something else? Maybe even *sigh* discuss George Donaldson's idea of moving to R5's.

What Donaldson suggests is that they put a bigger restrictor to get more horsepower, and just reinforce the parts which wouldn't withstand the increased power. I'm not saying it's impossible, but sure not as simple as he makes it sound like.

I know we've talked about the R5+ idea before and this forum have written it off, but I'd love to know from someone who ran the actual M-Sport Fiesta R5+ (or someone from M-Sport) how exactly the costs compared to buying/running the regular R5. That wasn't just a case of running a larger air restrictor, there were some mechanical differences, but they weren't extensive. When I asked someone at Goodwood a few years ago who was running one, I was told there wasn't too big a difference in the costs involved between that and the R5. As a spectator though I wasn't really in a position to ask for a breakdown of the costs! I've haven't got the impression that the R5+ Fiesta has been particularly unreliable, though nobody has been trying to get 400bhp out of one...

[satnav]

But they don't have an active factory team, and VW has decided not to support any ICE motorsports anymore (although not sure if that applies to Skoda as well?)

Yes they don't have an active factory team all but in name , VW are still developing this car which could be run as a satellite team by any number of teams.

Regardless of this I reckon the future will be very different to what we have know in the past not just in motorsport.

[T16]

This is getting a bit tiresome now...



If I had to guess I'd imagine that the move to SUV/'CUV' won't be warmly welcomed, but will have little impact on the (already now niche) following of the sport, particularly if their performance is similar to the current level. Those who gave up on rallying because of the cars used gave up a long time ago. I do believe that '17 cars brought some of these people back in though. Given that you can't provide 'evidence' that it'll have no impact, what evidence should Eddie provide?



Well Neuville has said "I don't know if I'm really interested to drive these cars but we're going to find out."



I'm afraid this is where I completely disagree with you over Eddie. Were there more Welsh locals out in 2017 than normal just to cheer on Elfyn? I'd say so. But I have no doubt that the '17 cars made a far greater impact on increased spectator numbers and general following of the sport in 2017, and even more so in subsequent years. I've had numerous discussions with random people out on stages over the last few years, with people who either hadn't closely followed the sport or attended stages since the Group B days or McRae/Burns era. Not one of them said they'd come out to see Elfyn, they all came back to see these cars. Literally the only person I've spoke to who came especially to see Elfyn was the young son (under the age of 10) of a local guy I got talking to in Gwydyr in 2018. Mintexmemory from this forum can probably vouch for this as he was with me!

I also know a few lapsed fans, to greater or lesser extents, at my work who have followed the sport. I know one attended a Rally GB stage in 2017 after decades away because he wanted to see these cars. Another went to a lot of rallies (national and GB) for years up until around the early 2000s, I'm tempting him back on the basis of seeing these cars. Though he was far more interested in the sound of the Roger Albert Clark than my sales pitch of Rally GB! Additionally, for the few casual observers at my work, it's the hype and videos they've seen on the internet of these cars which has caught their attention. I doubt they could pick Elfyn Evans out of a line up Welshmen...

That's not to write off the SUVs/CUVs, but they'll have to be done right to achieve the same effect.



What's the point of this question? I haven't seen you posting much about attending National rallies, but I wouldn't use that against you to say you're not a proper rally fan...


Sorry, not going to reply to the points you've made. I get what you're saying about it becoming tiresome and yes, I have a part in that, but you've answered on Eddie's behalf and I still don't see it differently than I did initially. But in the interest of it not getting any more tiresome, happy to leave it.

[br21]

R5+ Fiesta is/was quite reliable car, didn't have any special weak points, and it was not developed that much, so some improvements are easily possible. Of course mileage of components was way lower. Even 2.0l R5+ was quite reliable car, without any especially big weak point.
And R5+ like it is now (based on Evo2 engine) is faster than 2016 WRC car.

[AnttiL]

This whole R5+ concept is unfamiliar to me and it's difficult to obtain information on it. According to this (https://www.motor2000.net/contenidos/noticias/13557/Ficha%20Ford%20Fiesta%20R5+.pdf) the Fiesta R5+ has 30 BHP more than the normal Fiesta R5, so we would be talking around 320 BHP. This is far less than going to 400 BHP like George Donaldson suggested.

[pantealex]

R5 was replaced to Rally2 over 4 months ago...

R5+ is marketing name that has been used by Msport only and for older model Fiesta. Or is there R5+ version of New Fiesta R5 ?

Skoda produces only Rally2 cars, others do still R5 cars.

At first we must decide what that new "R5+WRC" means
-what kind of engine?
-restrictor?
-turbo size?
-how many gears?
-stick or paddle sifts?
-diffs?
-how wide? (WRC17 safety cockpit is way wider than R5 one, FIA is not going to go back on safety standards)
-is titanium allowed?
-aerodynamics?

Right now term "R5+" means different thing to different people. For me it´s illegal national old model Fiesta R5

[AnttiL]

R5 was replaced to Rally2 over 4 months ago...

R5+ is marketing name that has been used by Msport only and for older model Fiesta. Or is there R5+ version of New Fiesta R5 ?

Skoda produces only Rally2 cars, others do still R5 cars.

At first we must decide what that new "R5+WRC" means
-what kind of engine?
-restrictor?
-turbo size?
-how many gears?
-stick or paddle sifts?
-diffs?
-how wide? (WRC17 safety cockpit is way wider than R5 one, FIA is not going to go back on safety standards)
-is titanium allowed?
-aerodynamics?

Right now term "R5+" means different thing to different people. For me it´s illegal national old model Fiesta R5

OK, can you ease a bit with that Rally2/R5 talk, it's a bit tiring to hear all over. We all know what we're talking about when we say R5.

I also think R5+ is only an M-Sport kit for the first model of Fiesta R5 which adds paddle shift, rear wing and turbo restrictor. Then there's also some 2.0L version? For sure they are not illegal, but just not complying to FIA regulations.

The way I see George Donaldson's idea is the cars would be just as R5, but with a bigger restrictor to get more power, and then through testing we would find out which parts need to be reinforced for rallying use. No paddle shift, same engine, same 5 gear box, same diffs, same aero, same width etc. If you start changing them radically, it's already losing its meaning for cost savings. The 2022 cars were anyway going to have simpler aero, gearbox and diffs.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tommi agrees with me...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/2022-wrc-cars-must-be-spectacular-makinen/

[AnttiL]

Tommi agrees with me...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/2022-wrc-cars-must-be-spectacular-makinen/

I don't see SUV's mentioned...Tommi just wants to keep the fancy aero.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Due to his achievements in and outside of the driving seat, Mäkinen will attract fans across the world regardless of the appearance of the cars he enters as Toyota’s WRC boss.

He’s still wary of his responsibility to those fans though: “we need to remember we are doing this sport for fans. If we are doing some new regulations that decrease their interest, then I’m not sure if it’s a good idea.”

[AndyRAC]

Define spectacular......The top guys could make a 1300cc FWD car look spectacular....but I can't see that going down too well. It's easy to say, 'must be spectacular' but not always easy to make happen.

I'd rather a competitive WRC in the long term; if that means a transitional period and 'less spectacular' - I'll take it.

[AnttiL]

Due to his achievements in and outside of the driving seat, Mäkinen will attract fans across the world regardless of the appearance of the cars he enters as Toyota’s WRC boss.

He’s still wary of his responsibility to those fans though: “we need to remember we are doing this sport for fans. If we are doing some new regulations that decrease their interest, then I’m not sure if it’s a good idea.”

He is just talking about the changes for the Rally1 regulations. Basically Tommi is always standing up for his own team. He has the budget to run these cars so he wants them. He doesn't want to go to R5 because he doesn't have one of those cars. But if Toyota suggests they put those wings and engine on an SUV, I'm sure he will do it.

[denkimi]

Why would tommi want cheaper cars if toyota is willing to pay for the expensive ones, and he's personally earning millions because of that.

If budgets were only half as big he would get away with only half the profits he has today.

[pantealex]

Why would tommi want cheaper cars if toyota is willing to pay for the expensive ones, and he's personally earning millions because of that.

If budgets were only half as big he would get away with only half the profits he has today.

Cheapers cars have better profit % and you can sell way more of those cheaper ones...

[AnttiL]

Cheapers cars have better profit % and you can sell way more of those cheaper ones...

Tommi's business is not selling cars

[Franky]

Tommi's business is not selling cars

Business models can always change.

[denkimi]

Business models can always change.
They can.

But that's not what tommi wants. He has a succesfull business model already.

[Lancia Stratos]

Can we leave the personal battles behind and move over to something else? Maybe even *sigh* discuss George Donaldson's idea of moving to R5's.

What Donaldson suggests is that they put a bigger restrictor to get more horsepower, and just reinforce the parts which wouldn't withstand the increased power. I'm not saying it's impossible, but sure not as simple as he makes it sound like.

If we think further, would Skoda join in as a manufacturer team? We know how great that car is, how much better than all the other cars. And would Toyota just drop out for a year while developing their R5 car? Would their drivers go to Skoda then? And what kind of a super team that would be...repeat of the VW era?

Is it a coincidence that Donaldson has close links with an R5 manufacturer...….

[AnttiL]

Is it a coincidence that Donaldson has close links with an R5 manufacturer...….

I didn't realize he's still working with some team. But that surely makes his statement a bit biased...

[AnttiL]

Breen supports the idea of R5 cars on main level https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/breen-backs-rally2-future/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Its a good idea for cost-saving and getting private entries but the problem is manus want to promote hybrid / electric cars now.

R2 (R5) as the top level would only work with private teams running them. And who would then create any new R2 cars going forward ?

[AnttiL]

R2 (R5) as the top level would only work with private teams running them. And who would then create any new R2 cars going forward ?

R2 is not the new R5
Rally2 is the new R5
Rally4 is the new R2

"Rally" does not equal "R". You can't just exchange the old and new prefixes or it becomes nonsense.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What are the existing cars going to be called... eg Citroen C3 R5... Citroen C3 Rally2 ?

[AnttiL]

What are the existing cars going to be called... eg Citroen C3 R5... Citroen C3 Rally2 ?

Yes.

https://www.skoda-motorsport.com/en/skoda-fabia-rally2-evo-new-season-new-name/
https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/2020/03/16/INTRODUCING-THE-NEW-FORD-FIESTA-RALLY4

[pantealex]

What are the existing cars going to be called... eg Citroen C3 R5... Citroen C3 Rally2 ?

You really didn´t know that there are ?

Fabia Rally2 EVO

208 Rally4 (new bodyshape, 5-doors only)

Fiesta Rally4 (update kit is available for R2 owners)

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-proposed-2022-wrc-rules-may-change-driving-styles/

Esapekka Lappi reminds again how the new rules will mean that they cannot drive flat out all the time like now

[Franky]

As automotive companies are starting to face the harsh realities caused by the lockdowns and the potential future, I think we might end up thinking of a completely different kind of rallying future. When sorting old magazines last weekend, came upon a graph showing who controls which car brands. There are 14 different big companies controlling most of the brands.

Today read the news that Renault is in deep trouble (Link to Reuters article, dated 22nd May (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-renault/renault-could-disappear-and-needs-to-be-able-to-adapt-le-maire-idUSKBN22Y0TH?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews)). And obviously everyone is on a cost saving mission but tough times lead to mergers as well. So the outlook for new manufacturers to enter WRC doesn't look very bright, in my opinion.

If to look at the very dark scenario, that many different manufacturers will have very difficult times and even more brands will end up being owned by even less companies, then could we end up with a situation where no manufacturer would be interested in running a WRC marketing campaign? If it goes that way, will the customer racing have to take the leading role in WRC? Or could there be a crazy move to private outfits and more prototype style class (if the manufacturers won't let use their vehicles' designs or other restrictions from them)?

Just throwing some ideas in the air as the future looks very different now than it was 5 months ago.

[the sniper]

If the sport comes down to a level where privateers can afford to run a WRC season, the costs will equally be low enough for manufacturers to have a program for relatively negligible cost. Especially if there's presumably still a market for selling cars to privateers in your scenario. In your doomsday scenario, Formula 1 could be decimated very quickly, but rallying could weather the same storm, as it can theoretically downsize costs very quickly while maintaining a largely similar product.

[Barreis]

but manufacturers don't want that. why to sell the R5 car for 250 000€ as a top car in WRC when you can rent your car for something less money then that (David Richards and Malcolm Wilson invented that). also they want silver rockets as WRC cars.

R5 should be top category with that price

[Franky]

If the sport comes down to a level where privateers can afford to run a WRC season, the costs will equally be low enough for manufacturers to have a program for relatively negligible cost. Especially if there's presumably still a market for selling cars to privateers in your scenario. In your doomsday scenario, Formula 1 could be decimated very quickly, but rallying could weather the same storm, as it can theoretically downsize costs very quickly while maintaining a largely similar product.

In the light of the Renault news, F1 might end up with just Ferrari and Mercedes as factory teams. Haven't been following F1 for some time, so not sure how to classify Alfa Romeo. But F1 really don't rely on manufacturers filling the grid.

Rallying itself would survive, but what I'm more interested in is how will the current crisis affect the manufacturers' involvement. Car manufacturers are in a quite similar situation to the airlines as both are losing money because there are considerably less people buying their products/services. And all the changes in employment will affect the future spendings of people, who will most likely postpone big expenditure. Plus the drop in travel industry will affect car rentals. On top of the drop in sales, there's still the pressure for the manufacturers to make their vehicle fleet greener. And those developments are expensive and different manufacturers are already working together to reduce development costs. Manufacturers also have lots of debt, which needs paying.

We need to keep in mind that big corporations are run by finance guys in the first place and their only aim is to earn profit and spend as little as possible.

Five months ago I would had thought this doomsday scenario is bonkers, but like I wrote in the previous post the world is very different now. And we don't even know when life will be back on normal track.

[Rally Power]

Five months ago I would had thought this doomsday scenario is bonkers, but like I wrote in the previous post the world is very different now. And we don't even know when life will be back on normal track.


Probably Toyota and Hyundai will get over Covid impacts better than any western manu and MSport depends less and less on Ford sake to be at the WRC. The FIA failled to get new manus into the series long before the pandemic (PSA is focused on LeMans/WEC, Skoda is trapped on VW’s electric plan and Subaru is taken an eternity to decide its return) and there was little more to do than getting a compromise with the 3 current manus.

Even if some aspects of that compromise sounds weird (like saving on dampers specs while keeping the expensive GREngines) and there’s no way that 2022 cars will cost €500k like Matton promissed (manus will pay over 100k per car just for the hybrid system), the truth is that the 3 manus agreed on 2022 tech guidelines, so post-Covid savings will likely happen on running costs.

After the announced limitations on major parts replacement, it’s not hard to predict that, as many are already talking, we may end with shorter events or even a smaller calendar. If so, let’s hope those changes can be made in a reasonable way.

[Sulland]

Agreed
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/new-wrc-rules-direction-for-2022-could-help-rookie-drivers/?fbclid=IwAR2xl_Diyqy-1-nSH6A4F3dgoz3wGMESQV339VOUHtsoMCCMKDfL1aPNWxc

Rally should be the motorsport where local lads can compete with (almost) same equipment as the pros, as they now does in wrc2 and 3. The privateers love to beat the factory drivers!

[pantealex]

Agreed
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/new-wrc-rules-direction-for-2022-could-help-rookie-drivers/?fbclid=IwAR2xl_Diyqy-1-nSH6A4F3dgoz3wGMESQV339VOUHtsoMCCMKDfL1aPNWxc

Rally should be the motorsport where local lads can compete with (almost) same equipment as the pros, as they now does in wrc2 and 3. The privateers love to beat the factory drivers!

Basically yes but like in most other sports WORLD level is bit different thing.

[lmmjvss]

My first post in this forum is going to be a pretty weird one but here we go:
Do you think there is a place for these type of cars in WRC? Not the top class, of course. BUT we know these european autocross buggys (in this case it has a co-pilot seat too!) can be as fast as the european/world rallycross cars... SO they are kinda "able" to compete with R5.. maybe? Anyway... any chances in the future?
AND If there IS already a "rally format" series with buggys like this - other than hilclimb - you can send me some links I'd love to! haha Cheers

1948

[tommeke_B]

I think one of the strengths of rallying is the close relationship there's always been between cars used in competition and cars sold to the public, even if it's only the looks. I don't think buggy-things belong in rallying, and certainly not in WRC where you need the commitment from manufacturers and big sponsors.

[Zeakiwi2]

Buggies are more a cross country rally vehicle. Cross Karts are more a closed dirt / tarmac track vehicle.

Finnish single seater Cross Kart 2013 on forest track
https://youtu.be/wPXENKf84V8
Depends on local area rules/ insurance / liabilities for used a limited production special vehicle on a public road between stages. The Australian Rally Championship had side by side utilities for a few years.
-----------------------------------------------

The previous space tube frame rally cars were the Group B cars.
Woodner Group B spaceframe 205 history
https://youtu.be/5PGB3l78guM

French get some of the dakar vehicles on french rallies from time to time. (hillclimb with dakar pug in this one)
https://youtu.be/UQKIRajNJPs

Saker tube frame have competed on tarmac rallies.
http://sakersportscars.com/en/home/

The WRC has gone a full circle if the manufacturers tube space frame cars are allowed back again. With the 'cars' allowed to be scaled - they might be considered manufactuers' buggy wrcs?
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/world-rally-championship-cars-are-going-hybrid-2022

Whether the tube cars filter down in lower ranks of stage rallying remains to be seen. The rallycross lites were space frames from Turkey.(Avitas)
https://youtu.be/CUM42CagO3Q

Speed UTV if their initial projects succeed they have plans for an enclosed 2 seater UTV that could be quite suitable for taking part in non-European stage rallying. 300 hp turbo 1000cc on E85, cvt trans, 4wd, tube frame, long travel suspension, HD brakes, full size spare tyre, FIA bag race tank, frame able to separated to service/ remove the engine/ transmission etc
https://youtu.be/mIyWJmyQBgo (very basic prototype sxs utv initial PR display)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

No review of 2022 Rules says Matton:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-stands-firm-on-2022-rules-despite-reconsideration-calls

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/manufacturers-must-commit-to-2022-wrc-next-month/

M-Sport are cautious and rightly so. It's time Ford came back as full factory team.

[T16]

It's a complete mess. Only two teams look like they will sign. The FIA imposing a deadline of August.
No other manufacturer's even being mooted. I thought M-Sport are already developing the 2022 car?
I can't understand why the FIA and the promoter aren't making more noise about refreshing the whole championship, as opposed to insisting that everyone signs up by August.
Things clearly not going in the correct direction in terms of attracting new manufacturers, yet they still push on, insisting the new regulations are good for the sport. Really?
Maybe the whole thing needs to collapse to reinvent itself. It would ba a shame, but the long term may be better for it.

[AndyRAC]

So, Toyota & Hyundai......and where are the others? Ford would come back 'officially' if they thought it was worth it. As would others.......However, the Covid-19 pandemic has surely put a stop to any others who were thinking about it.

But the FiA are determined to plough on regardless......What could possibly go wrong.....

[T16]

So, Toyota & Hyundai......and where are the others? Ford would come back 'officially' if they thought it was worth it. As would others.......However, the Covid-19 pandemic has surely put a stop to any others who were thinking about it.

But the FiA are determined to plough on regardless......What could possibly go wrong.....

My thoughts exactly. I’m astonished and a bit pissed iff with their ‘everything’s good here’ attitude. Compare to F1 or the DTM, where there’s transparency between organisers / teams / fans with regard to the problems in those series.
Arrogance beyond belief.

[masa90]

It just seems like people on wrc do not learn from past mistakes.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

As someone on a rally podcast said recently, the 2017-Cars have been 'massive short-term gain, for massive long-term pain'.

They have cost a fortune, lost us a great rally team (Citroen), lost us any top level privateer entry, and only made us hardcore rally fans happy and not attracted many new ones.

This being the case, we shouldn't be surprised that the new 2022 WRC Regs (decided by & for the WRC Promoter's benefit and 2 well-funded Asian manufacturer's) wont be good for the sport either.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So, Toyota & Hyundai......and where are the others? Ford would come back 'officially' if they thought it was worth it.

Maybe, but they have been getting WRC publicity on the cheap for years now. M-Sport may have decided to make a stand and said they wont commit to 2022 til Ford commit to them.

[T16]

As someone on a rally podcast said recently, the 2017-Cars have been 'massive short-term gain, for massive long-term pain'.

They have cost a fortune, lost us a great rally team (Citroen), lost us any top level privateer entry, and only made us hardcore rally fans happy and not attracted many new ones.

This being the case, we shouldn't be surprised that the new 2022 WRC Regs (decided by & for the WRC Promoter's benefit and 2 well-funded Asian manufacturer's) wont be good for the sport either.

I don't think a reduction in cost per car would make much difference.
If the series meant a manufacturer stood much chance of selling more cars, they would enter.
Remember the old Safari... they had bloody helicopters flying service technicians in mid-stage!
It's not about cost of cars or championship entry costs, it's about exposure and return on investment and for that, you need people tuning in.
They haven't achieved that, not even in the current format with these beastie 2017 cars, so what's going to change if they make the cars cheaper and possibly get another manufacturer on board? Another name on a trophy, but for who to see? The same hardcore fans that tune in at the moment.
The format is stale.
Rallying as a sport is about endurance and speed.
What we have now is just a few super fast cars, sprinting along a few predictable stages, usually with the winner clearly visable by mid-Friday morning....
Changing back to a more endurance based sport, which people can dip in and out of over a weekend, might sound ridiculous, but it might be what must happen. They've gone down this path of everything starting at the same time and finishing at the same time every weekend it's on, but this format simply hasn't achieved the standard it needs to for the FIA world rally championship series, in terms of exposure.
Let's face it, how many of you are confident the sport has a bright future as things are? (even taking the dreaded Covid out of the equation).

[the sniper]

As someone on a rally podcast said recently, the 2017-Cars have been 'massive short-term gain, for massive long-term pain'.

They have cost a fortune, lost us a great rally team (Citroen), lost us any top level privateer entry, and only made us hardcore rally fans happy and not attracted many new ones.

Under what circumstances would Citroen have continued to hang around, other than perhaps with continued domination at a low price, which couldn't be achieved once other teams turned up and they didn't have the best driver anymore? No manufacturer stays forever and they bid a long goodbye.

The new cars have attracted new fans and brought back old ones, they aren't the problem and probably would have been funded by all but one manufacturer for a five year run. But their impact has been limited by the same issues that have dogged the WRC for 15 years, lack of exposure and uninspiring event formats. All Live is great, but casual fans will never see it. In most countries WRC Promoter haven't got the highlights show any better broadcast deals than North One did with a worse 'product'. I think privateer entries as a draw for fans is being rather overstated.

[AnttiL]

What we have now is just a few super fast cars, sprinting along a few predictable stages, usually with the winner clearly visable by mid-Friday morning....

This can only come from a person who doesn't follow the sport enough even to know if Monte is run over multiple regions.


Changing back to a more endurance based sport, which people can dip in and out of over a weekend, might sound ridiculous, but it might be what must happen. They've gone down this path of everything starting at the same time and finishing at the same time every weekend it's on, but this format simply hasn't achieved the standard it needs to for the FIA world rally championship series, in terms of exposure.


Have you heard of this product called All Live? Rallying has become increasingly popular during the latest few years. People are suggesting rallies would be shortened, not lengthened. Who would benefit from longer rallies, other than old farts who crave for nostalgy of the yesteryear? Also remember that the current race engines (and probably other parts as well) need a rebuild after 500 km of stages.


Let's face it, how many of you are confident the sport has a bright future as things are? (even taking the dreaded Covid out of the equation).
Well of course motorsport is a thing of the past, there's just no denying it. Things won't return to how it was in the 00's, 90's, 80's or 70's.

The late great Martin Holmes said already in 2002 "The minute that rallying stops changing, it will no longer adapt itself to the changing face of life on earth, and that means the sport will be doomed".

[T16]

This can only come from a person who doesn't follow the sport enough even to know if Monte is run over multiple regions.


Have you heard of this product called All Live? Rallying has become increasingly popular during the latest few years. People are suggesting rallies would be shortened, not lengthened. Who would benefit from longer rallies, other than old farts who crave for nostalgy of the yesteryear? Also remember that the current race engines (and probably other parts as well) need a rebuild after 500 km of stages.


Well of course motorsport is a thing of the past, there's just no denying it. Things won't return to how it was in the 00's, 90's, 80's or 70's.

The late great Martin Holmes said already in 2002 "The minute that rallying stops changing, it will no longer adapt itself to the changing face of life on earth, and that means the sport will be doomed".



It's really stuck with you that I asked if the Monte was ran over more then one region. I wasn't sure, I asked, because I suspected it was and you immediately thought I was asking as a snipe at your original post (whatever that was). I didn't know, but you think that has to correlate with my opinion on the level of predictability in today's events? Get a grip and be honest with yourself.... it IS predictable.


"Have I heard of all live?" Yes.

"Rallying has become more popular over the last few years" Well, that's even more worrying then isn't it, that Citroen left, Ford don't seem to want anything to do with it and we have the only two manufacturers a little over a month away from a deadline for new regs, who still haven't committed yet, but yes AnttiL, rallying is more popular!

"remember the current engines need a rebuild" are you so hemmed into what we have now that it's beyond the possibility of your imagination that a rules change will allow for a more reliable engine, should event distance increase? Think about it, it's not hard.... change the regs.

I'm not saying that longer rallies will work, but for me, that's one of the main attractions of the sport, one of it's foundations and they've taken it away, thinking this new bite sized format will work and it just isn't. Oh, sorry, I forgot, it's more popular than ever!

If Martin Holmes was correct in his prediction, then why do you assume change must mean not changing back to something that once worked? again, short sighted. Just because it's not been done for a while, doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

"who would benefit from longer rallies - old farts" Maybe a massive group of people who currently don't watch, who would prefer a different format. Are you able to consider that a new format will attract new fans?

Of course I am not saying what I think may work and what I would like to see IS definitely the answer, but you seriously need to take the rose tinted glasses off and see that it is in a proper shit state right now, or you'll be making your maps for empty entry lists and no spectators.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport taking a stand or they cant/wont commit to 2022...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-private-sales-of-cars-key-to-2022-wrc-entry/

[Rally Power]

My thoughts exactly. I’m astonished and a bit pissed iff with their ‘everything’s good here’ attitude. Compare to F1 or the DTM, where there’s transparency between organisers / teams / fans with regard to the problems in those series.
Arrogance beyond belief.

We may or not agree with the new rules but from what is publicly known the FIA can’t be blamed for arrogance on making them; besides Matton, all manus principals and the promoter revealed they’re working on a permanent dialogue and compromise. The formal pre-engagement is a normal procedure and regarding all the positive feedback from the manus in the recent months it’s surprising to see one of them rejecting it.

https://dirtfish.com/motorsport/wrc-2022-rule-making-process-the-best-adamo-has-ever-seen/
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc-teams-will-begin-testing-2022-cars-next-january/



M-Sport taking a stand or they cant/wont commit to 2022...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-private-sales-of-cars-key-to-2022-wrc-entry/

That’s an unrealistic demand; there’s no way the FIA can impose Rally1 cars in national series and in regional FIA competitions WRC cars weren’t allowed long before 2017. Besides, with the hybrid system and safety cell costs, Rally1 cars will barely be less expensive than current WRC’s; apart a privateer class in the WRC, with manus support, probably there’s little way to spread Rally1 cars use.

[Rally Power]

Of course I am not saying what I think may work and what I would like to see IS definitely the answer, but you seriously need to take the rose tinted glasses off and see that it is in a proper shit state right now, or you'll be making your maps for empty entry lists and no spectators.

After 3 of the most exciting WRC seasons ever, with close fights for the win and many events decided on the last day or even on the last stage, I would say that Antii’s rosed tinted glasses are more realistic than the very dark ones you’re using to portrait WRC state.

There’s no doubt that until Covid’s pandemic WRC spectator’s numbers were increasing, both locally and globally, mostly thanks to the wow factor of post-17 cars and WRC+ broadcast. The reason why that increasing popularity didn’t materialize on a larger number of manus is quite simple: overall running costs went through the roof and they do matter in motorsport.

Even in pre-Covid days the automotive industry was facing wildely expensive challenges with EV’s mandatory rules and a race for driving automation systems making cost cutting imperative in other areas, like motorsport. That way, each rally/racing series is forced to compete for a slice of an increasingly smaller pie, with overall running costs control becoming crucial for manus investement.

WEC/Le Mans example is paradigmatic: Toyota was the only manu left in the expensive high tech hybrid era, forcing the FIA and the ACO to come with less expensive hybrid systems rules, still not enough to convince manus to invest (apart Peugeot). Now, with IMSA’s help, they’re proposing a new cost effective category, based on common spec hybrid systems and lower class chassis, making Porsche, Audi and many others to consider an LM return.

In that sense and facing Covid’s inevitable impact, it’s not hard to think, unlikely the FIA and the 3 manus are doing, that the new rules may be in a dangerous countercycle and a Super R5 Hybrid solution would be a much wiser option for WRC future.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That’s an unrealistic demand; there’s no way the FIA can impose Rally1 cars in national series and in regional FIA competitions WRC cars weren’t allowed long before 2017. Besides, with the hybrid system and safety cell costs, Rally1 cars will barely be less expensive than current WRC’s; apart a privateer class in the WRC, with manus support, probably there’s little way to spread Rally1 cars use.

Did you read what M.Wilson said - in 2017 WRCar sales fell off a cliff and they cant sustain a business just making them for Ford to enter as a psuedo-factory team.

No new manu's are coming in, so do we let M-Sport leave as well ? If so that's a bad indictment on the future of the sport at the top level.

M-Sport accepted the new rules and the plan for hybrid cars, but didnt say anything about agreeing where and by who they could be used. Forcing them into another 4 years of no private WRC sales is just not on. Something has to give...

[AnttiL]

my opinion on the level of predictability in today's events? Get a grip and be honest with yourself.... it IS predictable.

There's been so many last stage lead position changes during 2019 alone. There might have been rallies where Tänak was leading from the first day to the end but even then you still had to be on the edge of your seat to see if the car would last to the finish. And it probably was more predictable before 2017 when it was just Ogier or Loeb dominating rallies from the beginning to the end. Not to mention the dominating eras of Audi and Lancia.

You guys are now mixing up the car formats and event formats. So the cars need to be made cheaper...but the events more expensive? The only way I could see that the events would be made longer is to reduce the number of them. I proposed this on my blog and asked some people who actually organize rallies and they gave a big no. https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/15/wrc-event-in-three-days/


"who would benefit from longer rallies - old farts" Maybe a massive group of people who currently don't watch, who would prefer a different format. Are you able to consider that a new format will attract new fans?

This is as much of a guess as proposing that rallies could gain more audience if they were run on only stadium stages and decided in one day, because hey, F1 is still more popular!. I want some data to back your opinion. And saying "it was better in the 80's" doesn't cut it, the world has changed.

I still want to hear what is the benefit of increasing the endurance element? We have Rally Raids which have that element, how popular are they?

Remember bevore COVID-19 there was this thing called Global Warming and many car manufacturers seemed to be in dire straits? There simply is less money to spend in motorsport and that's why there's no more teams competing.

Going to hybrids is a step onto the correct path, we need to have rallying have some way to market their greener models, which is what they sell now, even though the cars aren't going to be less ecological with the 2022 rules. But for car manufacturers, it's a big thing.

[AnttiL]

Did you read what M.Wilson said - in 2017 WRCar sales fell off a cliff and they cant sustain a business just making them for Ford to enter as a psuedo-factory team.


Again we need to remember that this is Wilson talk, he is saying this in public to persuade Ford to give more money. He does the same at the end of every season.

[Rally Power]

Did you read what M.Wilson said - in 2017 WRCar sales fell off a cliff and they cant sustain a business just making them for Ford to enter as a psuedo-factory team.


Take a good look on the eWRC site and you can see that WRC cars sales collapse started long before 2017; from 2014 onwards R5 cars become the main category in national and regional series and although WRC cars were still allowed, sometimes in the detuned RRC version, very few drivers managed to run them.

No matter how vital selling top cars is to MSport, the FIA can’t simply impose Rally1 cars use in national (that’s up to ASN’s) or regional series when they’re expected to cost only slightly less than a current WRC car.

It’s already hard to get a decent entry level in series like the ERC, the MERC or the APRC (and the BRC, btw) with R5 cars; with these Rally1 cars it’d be impossible. Unless Rally1 class becomes cheaper than projected, it simply can’t be a solution for national or regional rallying.

[T16]

After 3 of the most exciting WRC seasons ever, with close fights for the win and many events decided on the last day or even on the last stage, I would say that Antii’s rosed tinted glasses are more realistic than the very dark ones you’re using to portrait WRC state.

There’s no doubt that until Covid’s pandemic WRC spectator’s numbers were increasing, both locally and globally, mostly thanks to the wow factor of post-17 cars and WRC+ broadcast. The reason why that increasing popularity didn’t materialize on a larger number of manus is quite simple: overall running costs went through the roof and they do matter in motorsport.

Even in pre-Covid days the automotive industry was facing wildely expensive challenges with EV’s mandatory rules and a race for driving automation systems making cost cutting imperative in other areas, like motorsport. That way, each rally/racing series is forced to compete for a slice of an increasingly smaller pie, with overall running costs control becoming crucial for manus investement.

WEC/Le Mans example is paradigmatic: Toyota was the only manu left in the expensive high tech hybrid era, forcing the FIA and the ACO to come with less expensive hybrid systems rules, still not enough to convince manus to invest (apart Peugeot). Now, with IMSA’s help, they’re proposing a new cost effective category, based on common spec hybrid systems and lower class chassis, making Porsche, Audi and many others to consider an LM return.

In that sense and facing Covid’s inevitable impact, it’s not hard to think, unlikely the FIA and the 3 manus are doing, that the new rules may be in a dangerous countercycle and a Super R5 Hybrid solution would be a much wiser option for WRC future.


If AnttiL's glasses are a better perspective than my doom and gloom, then why have we got not one manufacturer signed up to the 2022 regs yet, and none more on the horizon?

You say the reason more manufacturer's are not interested was because of the increasing costs? So you really believe that? The cost (within reason, of course) does not matter at all if the manufacturer gets perceived value from the marketing exercise that is rallying. I.E. if they can sell enough cars off the back of it, they'll get involved.

I understand that the WRC is fighting for a smaller piece of pie than in the past and it's made increasingly hard because of the other series that are more 'current' in terms of EV / Hybrid, meaning the WRC is lagging but the current format just isn't selling itself to the manufacturers.

Am I right in thinking that Toyota are there because of the chairman's love affair with the sport? hell, what happens when he's not interested anymore / not in that position?

Maybe time to flip it on it's head a bit... Let's face it, fast hatch backs are becoming less and less popular because of the fact that people are increasingly likely to think of a fast driver as a dick, for several reasons (environmental and safety mainly.
Their day is done, hence why the championship has acknowledged this and paved the way for more SUV based rally cars.
So if this kind of vehicle is becoming the norm, then does a manufacturer stand to gain more benefit from advertising the car as something that can rip along a few roads, over couple of days, faster than its rival, or would it look better if it dominated it over a (still quick) event that celebrated more of a reliability victory?

Again, just my opinion, as is the fact that the current state of affairs doesn't look good.

[T16]

There's been so many last stage lead position changes during 2019 alone. There might have been rallies where Tänak was leading from the first day to the end but even then you still had to be on the edge of your seat to see if the car would last to the finish. And it probably was more predictable before 2017 when it was just Ogier or Loeb dominating rallies from the beginning to the end. Not to mention the dominating eras of Audi and Lancia.

You guys are now mixing up the car formats and event formats. So the cars need to be made cheaper...but the events more expensive? The only way I could see that the events would be made longer is to reduce the number of them. I proposed this on my blog and asked some people who actually organize rallies and they gave a big no. https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/15/wrc-event-in-three-days/



This is as much of a guess as proposing that rallies could gain more audience if they were run on only stadium stages and decided in one day, because hey, F1 is still more popular!. I want some data to back your opinion. And saying "it was better in the 80's" doesn't cut it, the world has changed.

I still want to hear what is the benefit of increasing the endurance element? We have Rally Raids which have that element, how popular are they?

Remember bevore COVID-19 there was this thing called Global Warming and many car manufacturers seemed to be in dire straits? There simply is less money to spend in motorsport and that's why there's no more teams competing.

Going to hybrids is a step onto the correct path, we need to have rallying have some way to market their greener models, which is what they sell now, even though the cars aren't going to be less ecological with the 2022 rules. But for car manufacturers, it's a big thing.

Car changes needed / event changes needed.

I didn’t nail my flag to the mast and say I’m certain that longer events are the answer.... it’s just a thought.


I’m saying what we have now isn’t.

[wyler]

"So if this kind of vehicle is becoming the norm, then does a manufacturer stand to gain more benefit from advertising the car as something that can rip along a few roads, over a couple of days, faster than its rival, or would it look better if it dominated it over a (still quick) event that celebrated more of a reliability victory?"

Really someone is still thinking you sell a car for a reason different than advertising?. How many cars are sold because of winning the Dakar? Not that much. How many because is the car of mr.x instagram influencer? Way more. In the end, there's no difference between sprint or endurance, selling-wise. the point is to be on the news, possibly winning. and the general customer doesn't care how the rally is done. it's just a rally winning car.
Then the point goes to generating a big enough audience to be relevant for the markets. How you do? Marketing! Media as prime option, then events. TV and internet. Nothing long is really working nowadays there -not liking it either, but it is how it is-. you have 2 ways then: working on the general or became a very strong niche. they're working on the big numbers because the manufacturers want it. let's face reality: how was rally heritage useful for lancia or fiat/fca in the last decade? zero. not even to save world most known and winning brand. one thing is what we like, or we would like. Another thing is nowadays world. Rally needs lots of money. Rally needs investors. They follow the market. at the moment market demands very fast and very catchy short content. not time for hardcore fans niche. not time to go there. best example '17 cars: not in the spirit of pure rally: too focused on sprint and speed, too aesthetic. they worked for media and non-fans. still not enough to move real things, but starting.
Events: short spectacular things, concert/live events philosophy. Not having people in the woods, having them in a square (stadium?), with food, drink, gadgets and -again- media. You can't sell 100k people in 50 km street. You sell 100k people in a square, let's say end of a power stage maybe? Then brands will give you cash to have their name there. again: not liking it, but it is what it is.
Becoming a strong niche would be great, but you need big money to start, and again that's not the time.

[djip]

Car changes needed / event changes needed.

I didn’t nail my flag to the mast and say I’m certain that longer events are the answer.... it’s just a thought.


I’m saying what we have now isn’t.

What about ... shorter events ? The 3 days format with 9-12 and 2-5 driving is ridiculous - sounds more like a government employee's job than sports. So is the sunday which is pretty much useless in every rally result-wise. This was made for TV way back then (late 90's) - Nowadays is the age of internet (aka Rally-Live), who cares of a sunday at noon ending ?

Way back then, the tour of corsica was a 24hours events and it was by no means an easy walkover. 1000 Lakes rally was also a 2 days affair and nobody seemd to think it was a walk in the park.

Wouldn't money be saved by shaving of 1 day ? and since stages are mostly the same year after year, coudn't recce be also shortened, at least for the top teams that have been coming to these stages year after year ?

What about the idea of dropping off shakedown ? I now teams would hate it, but we, as fan, may enjoy a bit of unpredictability in the result by having a few surprises if some team would come up with the wrong set-up . One of the big issues of rallyes today is that it is always the same drivers that win - not as bad as F1 but close...

And last bnut not least since i am seldom logged into the forum (but reading everyone's posts vivivdely), can't we get rid of Rally2 (super rally) ? I know manufacturers want exposure for their cars, but this aint' the spirit of rallying. Rallying is about speed on normal road (for which people can easily materialize how incredible these drivers are) but also has the notion of endurance built into it. Not anymore 60's style where drivers would seldom sleep for 4 days, but at least if you break your car, you're out, as simple as that. This may sound a bit oldies (which i am), but if we lose this (and we are close to), we lose the whole perception of rallying for the fan/people - we may as well go rallycross.

[the sniper]

Maybe time to flip it on it's head a bit... Let's face it, fast hatch backs are becoming less and less popular because of the fact that people are increasingly likely to think of a fast driver as a dick, for several reasons (environmental and safety mainly.
Their day is done, hence why the championship has acknowledged this and paved the way for more SUV based rally cars.
So if this kind of vehicle is becoming the norm, then does a manufacturer stand to gain more benefit from advertising the car as something that can rip along a few roads, over couple of days, faster than its rival, or would it look better if it dominated it over a (still quick) event that celebrated more of a reliability victory?

Erm, if this is the problem, no Motorsport program is the solution... Unless you're talking about the WRC becoming the World Regularity Rally Championship?


Then the point goes to generating a big enough audience to be relevant for the markets. How you do? Marketing! Media as prime option, then events. TV and internet. Nothing long is really working nowadays there -not liking it either, but it is how it is-. you have 2 ways then: working on the general or became a very strong niche. they're working on the big numbers because the manufacturers want it. let's face reality: how was rally heritage useful for lancia or fiat/fca in the last decade? zero. not even to save world most known and winning brand. one thing is what we like, or we would like. Another thing is nowadays world. Rally needs lots of money. Rally needs investors. They follow the market. at the moment market demands very fast and very catchy short content. not time for hardcore fans niche. not time to go there. best example '17 cars: not in the spirit of pure rally: too focused on sprint and speed, too aesthetic. they worked for media and non-fans. still not enough to move real things, but starting.
Events: short spectacular things, concert/live events philosophy. Not having people in the woods, having them in a square (stadium?), with food, drink, gadgets and -again- media. You can't sell 100k people in 50 km street. You sell 100k people in a square, let's say end of a power stage maybe? Then brands will give you cash to have their name there. again: not liking it, but it is what it is.
Becoming a strong niche would be great, but you need big money to start, and again that's not the time.

How do you explain the success of professional cycling? It does everything that rallying once did, which we're told no longer works as a format...


What about ... shorter events ? The 3 days format with 9-12 and 2-5 driving is ridiculous - sounds more like a government employee's job than sports. So is the sunday which is pretty much useless in every rally result-wise. This was made for TV way back then (late 90's) - Nowadays is the age of internet (aka Rally-Live), who cares of a sunday at noon ending ?

Way back then, the tour of corsica was a 24hours events and it was by no means an easy walkover. 1000 Lakes rally was also a 2 days affair and nobody seemd to think it was a walk in the park.

Wouldn't money be saved by shaving of 1 day ? and since stages are mostly the same year after year, coudn't recce be also shortened, at least for the top teams that have been coming to these stages year after year ?

What about the idea of dropping off shakedown ? I now teams would hate it, but we, as fan, may enjoy a bit of unpredictability in the result by having a few surprises if some team would come up with the wrong set-up . One of the big issues of rallyes today is that it is always the same drivers that win - not as bad as F1 but close...

And last bnut not least since i am seldom logged into the forum (but reading everyone's posts vivivdely), can't we get rid of Rally2 (super rally) ? I know manufacturers want exposure for their cars, but this aint' the spirit of rallying. Rallying is about speed on normal road (for which people can easily materialize how incredible these drivers are) but also has the notion of endurance built into it. Not anymore 60's style where drivers would seldom sleep for 4 days, but at least if you break your car, you're out, as simple as that. This may sound a bit oldies (which i am), but if we lose this (and we are close to), we lose the whole perception of rallying for the fan/people - we may as well go rallycross.

Does anybody think a two day rally will be anything other than the current itineraries, maybe with slight longer days, but with no Sunday? We ain't going back to 24hr rallies...

Personally to me these event shortening suggestions just make attending a rally, particularly one abroad or one you have to travel and stay locally (the case with many WRC rallies), far less attractive for spectators. Dropping Shakedown, dropping days, dropping Restarts... Many people will have had to wait all year to see just two days of top flight rallying! Okay, maybe in places like Finland you might get to see 4 stages in a day if you're willing to chase the cars, maybe 8 over two days. In Monte or GB though? You might go from 8 opportunities (including Shakedown) over the course of a four day event to 4 stages over a two day event. For what, the teams saving one night's hotel fees?

[AnttiL]

What about the idea of dropping off shakedown ? I now teams would hate it, but we, as fan, may enjoy a bit of unpredictability in the result by having a few surprises if some team would come up with the wrong set-up . One of the big issues of rallyes today is that it is always the same drivers that win - not as bad as F1 but close...

And last bnut not least since i am seldom logged into the forum (but reading everyone's posts vivivdely), can't we get rid of Rally2 (super rally) ? I know manufacturers want exposure for their cars, but this aint' the spirit of rallying. Rallying is about speed on normal road (for which people can easily materialize how incredible these drivers are) but also has the notion of endurance built into it. Not anymore 60's style where drivers would seldom sleep for 4 days, but at least if you break your car, you're out, as simple as that. This may sound a bit oldies (which i am), but if we lose this (and we are close to), we lose the whole perception of rallying for the fan/people - we may as well go rallycross.

Dropping the shakedown wouldn't help the fact that some drivers are better than others. If something, it would just increase the gap because the best drivers also adapt best if the car is not 100% as they want it.

I agree that Rally2 was a weird concept to accept when it was introduced. But it would be cruel for spectators on the last day of the rally seeing only 2-3 top cars. Power stages would also be boring to watch.



How do you explain the success of professional cycling? It does everything that rallying once did, which we're told no longer works as a format...

Do you mean Tour de France and the likes? It's a very different format than rallying. All the bikes ride at the same time and the first bike is leading the section. It's logical to follow for a casual viewer and doesn't take much time for roads to be closed. Also, even the most expensive road bike sold in the world probably costs only the same as a front bumper of a WRC car.

Cycling world also has its equivalent of rallying, the MTB enduro. There's special stages and liaisons, racing only against the clock. But it's not a popular format...

[wyler]

Do you mean Tour de France and the likes? It's a very different format than rallying. All the bikes ride at the same time and the first bike is leading the event. It's logical to follow for a casual viewer and doesn't take much time for roads to be closed. Also, even the most expensive road bike sold in the world probably costs only the same as a front bumper of a WRC car.

Cycling world also has its equivalent of rallying, the MTB enduro. There's special stages and liaisons, racing only against the clock. But it's not a popular format...

And mainly is perfect for tv. people can follow only the finish of every stage more or less same time every day, instantly know the winner, and the drama always happens near the finish, mountains are on route to being televised, and almost nothing happens till the end of the stage. following 30mins is enough to get the best easily also as a casual viewer.
on the events side, to spectate live you can see almost everything in 30min, if u don't go near the end of the stage for the show. they use loads of main road and town and village crossing. they gather lots of bystanders just being at home/work or near enough to spend there a couple of hours, not a day and travel a lot. for casual/general fans there's a lot of things happening on the road just before the race but not waiting too much and often also unrelated (car, girls, music). then for hardcore fan they can gather a lot of people near and on the finish line, offering easily food drink gadgets and entertainment along.
also general fans don't have to follow more than one day

[the sniper]

Do you mean Tour de France and the likes? It's a very different format than rallying. All the bikes ride at the same time and the first bike is leading the event. It's logical to follow for a casual viewer and doesn't take much time for roads to be closed. Also, even the most expensive road bike sold in the world probably costs only the same as a front bumper of a WRC car.

Cycling world also has its equivalent of rallying, the MTB enduro. There's special stages and liaisons, racing only against the clock. But it's not a popular format...

But we're led to believe that WRC rallies are too long, people's attention spans are too short nowadays to follow such an event... Yet many tens, even hundreds of thousands of people make the effort to line the routes of major tours to catch just a brief glimpse of these events. Sound familiar? The stages last and are broadcast for hours, for many hours of which very little is happening. Some events are one long day, the Grand Tours go on for WEEKS!

Can you imagine major cycling stage races being as popular as they are now had their formats been standardised and diminished in scope to the extent that most rallies have?

[AnttiL]

But we're led to believe that WRC rallies are too long, people's attention spans are too short nowadays to follow such an event... Yet many tens, even hundreds of thousands of people make the effort to line the routes of major tours to catch just a brief glimpse of these events. Sound familiar? The stages last and are broadcast for hours, for many hours of which very little is happening. Some events are one long day, the Grand Tours go on for WEEKS!

I'm pretty sure rallies would be made longer if someone saw it as an investment worth the return. Also when you talk about cycling, think about how "cheap" it is for an athlete to run for one day longer, compared to a rally driver. Week-long rallies would sure mean the end of privateers.


And mainly is perfect for tv. people can follow only the finish of every stage more or less same time every day, instantly know the winner, and the drama always happens near the finish, mountains are on route to being televised, and almost nothing happens till the end of the stage. following 30mins is enough to get the best easily also as a casual viewer.
on the events side, to spectate live you can see almost everything in 30min, if u don't go near the end of the stage for the show.

Maybe we should have embraced Jost Capito's suggestion having the power stage decide positions to add more television viewers? But in addition, do it at the end of every day?

Again, you could also play the F1 argument here and say rallies would become popular if they were run in two hours on Sunday afternoon.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a route enthusiast, I would love the rallies to be longer, but I know that in practice it's not possible today. (I also wouldn't definitely want Jost Capito's idea or a F1 format rally.)

[denkimi]

What about ... shorter events ? The 3 days format with 9-12 and 2-5 driving is ridiculous - sounds more like a government employee's job than sports. So is the sunday which is pretty much useless in every rally result-wise. This was made for TV way back then (late 90's) - Nowadays is the age of internet (aka Rally-Live), who cares of a sunday at noon ending ?

Wouldn't money be saved by shaving of 1 day ? and since stages are mostly the same year after year, coudn't recce be also shortened, at least for the top teams that have been coming to these stages year after year ?

What about the idea of dropping off shakedown ? I now teams would hate it, but we, as fan, may enjoy a bit of unpredictability in the result by having a few surprises if some team would come up with the wrong set-up . One of the big issues of rallyes today is that it is always the same drivers that win - not as bad as F1 but close...

That is my idea too. Make it more compact. Let them drive from friday morning till late at night, and again from saturday morning early till late in the evening. No 5 days of only 4 stages, but 2 days of 10 stages.
Recce can't be shortened, they already have only 2 passes. Shakedown is also not a problem, everyone is there already.

But none of that will make much difference for manufacturers. If we're talking about budgets of tens of millions, a few ten thousands spend on hotels and food isn't the problem.


If you see wat msport can do with their tight budget, money is not really the issue. For a big marque, 40 million dollar means nothing.

Its just that manufacturers do not believe they will get the return on investment.




And last bnut not least since i am seldom logged into the forum (but reading everyone's posts vivivdely), can't we get rid of Rally2 (super rally) ? I know manufacturers want exposure for their cars, but this aint' the spirit of rallying. Rallying is about speed on normal road (for which people can easily materialize how incredible these drivers are) but also has the notion of endurance built into it. Not anymore 60's style where drivers would seldom sleep for 4 days, but at least if you break your car, you're out, as simple as that. This may sound a bit oldies (which i am), but if we lose this (and we are close to), we lose the whole perception of rallying for the fan/people - we may as well go rallycross.
Before the days of rally2 we had flying service. If you could make it to the end of the stage somehow, the mechanics could probably fix it. Nowadays, if you rip a wheel off, the rally is finished since you aren't even allowed to drive on public roads without 4 rotating wheels.

Its either service after every stage, or rally2.

[AnttiL]

Its just that manufacturers do not believe they will get the return on investment.

This is the key thing. What do the manufacturers want to advertise, what do they want to show to the world through a sport?

[T16]

Sniper:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this:

"Erm, if this is the problem, no Motorsport program is the solution... Unless you're talking about the WRC becoming the World Regularity Rally Championship?"


I was trying to say I wonder if the current format, all about sprint saved over a short period, is the best way of representing what the Manu's want the image of the car to be (versus more of a reliability element).

Good debate by all, by the way.

[wyler]

But we're led to believe that WRC rallies are too long, people's attention spans are too short nowadays to follow such an event... Yet many tens, even hundreds of thousands of people make the effort to line the routes of major tours to catch just a brief glimpse of these events. Sound familiar? The stages last and are broadcast for hours, for many hours of which very little is happening. Some events are one long day, the Grand Tours go on for WEEKS!

Can you imagine major cycling stage races being as popular as they are now had their formats been standardised and diminished in scope to the extent that most rallies have?

as i wrote just above, cycling is standardized! take the vuelta, giro, and tour. starts same hours, finishes every day around 5 o'clock. even mountain stage are more or less same days in the 3 week span... and has plenty of difference from rally. yes, it has stages (but 1 per day). yes hardcore fan goes in the mountains and wait for hours but that's all. if you tune in 30 min at the stage end u can see everything important and know immediately who won the day. if you have 30 rally car u have to wait 1hr to know who won a stage. in the meantime is possible another stage is already running. big number of people is made by bystanders when passing in village and town. people can attend from home garden (yes sometimes rally too, but not comparable). and so on, told before. cycling is more marketable tv wise, 'cause is very much simpler compared to rally.
another fundamental thing: in cycling you can see athletes!!! (i mean their faces)

[wyler]

Maybe we should have embraced Jost Capito's suggestion having the power stage decide positions to add more television viewers? But in addition, do it at the end of every day?

Again, you could also play the F1 argument here and say rallies would become popular if they were run in two hours on Sunday afternoon.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a route enthusiast, I would love the rallies to be longer, but I know that in practice it's not possible today. (I also wouldn't definitely want Jost Capito's idea or a F1 format rally.)

No way! i hated Capito's idea, but was the right direction of thinking long term.
i i'm not proposing a solution. i was just analyzing how the market works and what it asks to promoters.
all live is disrupting in that sense. completely new and opposite direction. it's struggling because of money it needs to work, but for fans is great and it has potential to grow if promoter can turn casuals into fans. that's the point. rally needs a catchy live format for casual fans to sell to big tv network. that's why they try so hard with power stage...also recap and highlights have to be improved to gain audience, prime time spaces and so on. rally needs a clear long term strategy in communicating itself, something i don't see that much in recent promoter works. let's see with the new boss!
route can be longer while events shorter- they easily can add daily stages, opposite of this is the need of manus to have cars and driver in service park, where they mount their circus tent, give gadget, connect people to social media, and most important host sponsors showing them they can reach a lot of people, possible in the middle of a city.
I still think there's a way to converge fans and market, longer route and a competition better format, and marketing needs. it just take time and trials (and a bit of flexibility) to find the right recipe. i.e: a big sunday afternoon service park event (even not sport related) could be a good idea.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-will-continue-to-make-call-on-who-can-drive-wrc-cars/

"... the FIA has confirmed the next generation of Rally1 cars will be allowed to compete universally from 2022"

So M-Sport have got their way ?!

[AndyRAC]

Its just that manufacturers do not believe they will get the return on investment.



This is the crux of the matter; doesn't matter if an event is 1 day, or 3, 4, or even 5 days.....It's all about exposure - whether that's TV, radio, newpapers, adverts, social media, etc
WRC All Live is a good addition, but it can't give that; coverage behind a paywall isn't bringing the level of exposure Manufacturers, sponsors want or need. FTA highlights after the event isn't really cutting it in the 21st century.
And it's not something new - we've been saying the same for the past 15-20 years. And we see the same things happening; a few years of healthy Manufacturer interest, then 1 or 2 leave and we're struggling again.

Put it this way, if you want to sell a car, you're better putting your name on the shirt of a football team or a pitch side advert.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Nearly all top sport shown live is behind a 'pay wall' and had been for years.

In the UK Sky has taken most live sport and now BT also. Even Eurosport isnt FTA anymore.

WRC is at least available (All) Live now and is even on BT Sport at no extra cost to their subscribers & broadband users.

The only way to do better is put it on national free tv but can they commit to full coverage of the whole rally ?

[Franky]

I don't think Free to Air is the way to go as lots of people are paying for a service that gives them access to a certain amount of channels anyway. In Latvia and Estonia, basically the public broadcasting is the only one in FTA. It's more about on how niche channel the show is. If it's on a channel that's in the more basic channel packages, then there's a bigger chance of more people seeing it.

But if it's in some sport package that you have to know about in the first place, then you can do whatever crazy stunts you want, but you'll never reach the big audience. And we need to keep in mind that the whole TV landscape has changed a lot in the last 20 years and I'm not even talking about streaming and its effects.

Where viewers are is more fragmented than ever before.

[pantealex]

Many here are saying that rally days are too short
but
if you look rally schedules first drivers leave service park 6-7AM because stages don´t start from service park
same thing in afternoon/evening, day doesn´t end where last stage ends
so drivers do work about 12h/day now

not all drivers/team members can have hotel rooms near service park, that´s few hours more of "rallying time" for some people.

I personally don´t want tired drivers driving 200km/h between trees, way too dangerous for spectators.

[EstWRC]

Many here are saying that rally days are too short
but
if you look rally schedules first drivers leave service park 6-7AM because stages don´t start from service park
same thing in afternoon/evening, day doesn´t end where last stage ends
so drivers do work about 12h/day now

not all drivers/team members can have hotel rooms near service park, that´s few hours more of "rallying time" for some people.

I personally don´t want tired drivers driving 200km/h between trees, way too dangerous for spectators.

+1

especially in Wales, if anyone here has seen Tänaks movie you get a picture how early they get up and how late they get to sleep.

[AnttiL]

Maybe the hybrids could add a new element to be followed on the broadcasts. They should be able to get an electric boost to the engine and then they use the electric power to drive in the city to the service. It will add another layer of tactics and skill: where do you use the boost? If you use the boost too much, you'll run out of electric power and not be able to drive the city to the service. The level of electric power and boost usage could be seen on the screen telemetry. I would believe this is what the manufacturers also want to be pushed, even if it's not so remarkable in terms of the competition. And what the manufacturers do not want to see is their car retiring because of a failure in the electric system.

[T16]

Maybe the hybrids could add a new element to be followed on the broadcasts. They should be able to get an electric boost to the engine and then they use the electric power to drive in the city to the service. It will add another layer of tactics and skill: where do you use the boost? If you use the boost too much, you'll run out of electric power and not be able to drive the city to the service. The level of electric power and boost usage could be seen on the screen telemetry. I would believe this is what the manufacturers also want to be pushed, even if it's not so remarkable in terms of the competition. And what the manufacturers do not want to see is their car retiring because of a failure in the electric system.

I think your imagination has ran away a little there.

[AnttiL]

I think your imagination has ran away a little there.

Here's a reminder that the electric boost thing is already written in the 2022 rules

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147699/wrc-cars-will-get-hybrid-boost-on-stages-from-2022

Does it really take that much imagination to think that the boost usage would be shown on WRC+ telemetry?

If you're not interested, there's plenty of historic rallies still going on :)

[T16]

Here's a reminder that the electric boost thing is already written in the 2022 rules

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147699/wrc-cars-will-get-hybrid-boost-on-stages-from-2022

Does it really take that much imagination to think that the boost usage would be shown on WRC+ telemetry?

If you're not interested, there's plenty of historic rallies still going on :)

Yeah,

I'm pretty sure the boost usage will be visible.... It's your fantasy bit about using too much boost and running out of power and not making it to the service... Just all seems a bit far fetched to me.

Historic rallies - good one!

[wyler]

I think your imagination has ran away a little there.

think Formula E! they have fan boost and attack mode, and every kind of videogame graphics.

Ah! and they do run out of juice if they use too much power...

[T16]

think Formula E! they have fan boost and attack mode, and every kind of videogame graphics.

During a race they do.

[wyler]

During a race they do.
yes, they have to manage a battery. can't be the same in rallies, in a way? u can use the battery to add power in ss, but only having enough left to complete liaisons... not saying they'll do, but not so hard to think, and some rumors about regulation are around this idea...

[the sniper]

Quite bizarre for me listening to the latest Dirtfish rally podcast. First the (Pre-Covid) schedule for Sunday on Rally GB came up, first thing George Donaldson jumps in with is Sutton Park, which I'd suggested in the Rally GB thread! Then later on Colin Clark fills out my comparison to the cycling world, pointing out things that could be learnt from the Tour de France and Tour of Britain. Good point raised, why are luxury tour buses and gazebos good enough for cycling teams with proper corporate sponsors, yet the WRC requires a fixed, poor mans equivalent to the F1 paddock?

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/podcast-redesigns-encouraging-signs-and-the-wrcs-c-word/

[AndyRAC]

Yes, it was an interesting listen - and raises a few questions.
While one can understand the service park/ 'F1 Paddock' set up, I feel it's all a bit over the top - and a case of each team trying to outdo each other. However, whilst the idea of having tour buses instead of the current buildings makes sense - the current WRC event set up is built around the service park, and has been since the DR inspired 'takeover' in the late 90s/early 00s. It would be quite a change for them to change things.

There is a saying 'adapt or die' - can/will the WRC adapt to future challenges - or are they stuck in the same mindset they have been for the last 15+ years?

[T16]

Yes, it was an interesting listen - and raises a few questions.
While one can understand the service park/ 'F1 Paddock' set up, I feel it's all a bit over the top - and a case of each team trying to outdo each other. However, whilst the idea of having tour buses instead of the current buildings makes sense - the current WRC event set up is built around the service park, and has been since the DR inspired 'takeover' in the late 90s/early 00s. It would be quite a change for them to change things.

There is a saying 'adapt or die' - can/will the WRC adapt to future challenges - or are they stuck in the same mindset they have been for the last 15+ years?

@Andyrac / @sniper please stop thinking outside the box. It’s not allowed and nobody will listen.

Seriously, I wouldn’t be surprised if Colin Clark pics up some ideas from here, as much as I like the chap, I’m not convinced his ability to consider the sport in any way extends beyond the rally car crossing the finish line and what he has to say (check out his Finland testing review!).

Couldn’t agree more about the service park and it’s been scratching stay without it coming to the fore in my mind, but yes, totally agree... we just don’t need it as it is in this sport.

[Rally Power]

@Andyrac / @sniper please stop thinking outside the box. It’s not allowed and nobody will listen.


Why the irony? Even showing quite different angles, all posts on this debate have been quite interesting to read.

Anyway, with costs escalation probably agravated after Rally1 cars introduction, a return to longer routes or SS servicing (instead of the service park solution) seems impossible. It's always a bit strange to see the events being adaptaded to the cars rather than the opposite but as many have said there's probably room to make WRC rallys more compact, adding the endurance factor on a positive way.

Wales 2nd leg, with drivers easily doing over 150 SS kms with a single remote service area, seems a good example on how the endurance factor can be restored, avoiding all those long travels to mid-day service park.

Could two of those 'marathon' legs, on Friday and Saturday (plus a SSS on Thursday evening) be enougth for a WRC round? Or, in addiction to a Saturday's 'marathon', turning Sunday's sprint leg (at least over 70 SS kms) the 2nd run of a short Friday afternoon leg (run a couple of hours after the SD)? Both solutions would probably still be attractive to foreign visitors (an important factor, as @sniper remarked) and keep a decent SS total length (around 300 kms).

This said, I fear future events will be run on a more radical shape (somehow inspired on this year Sweden rally) with a single longer leg on Saturday, plus the usual sprint one on Sunday...hope to be wrong.

[wyler]

tour bus are good for, well, tours! they move every day to another place. service park stays in the same place for a week, and is easier to ship a bunch of metal stick to the other side of the world than a bus.

btw, not certain, but some of the tour bus/motorhome can be more expensive or at least same price as msport service park (made of trucks and tents)

"The price tag new? Busses like this run 500,000 euros"

[pantealex]

tour bus are good for, well, tours! they move every day to another place. service park stays in the same place for a week, and is easier to ship a bunch of metal stick to the other side of the world than a bus.

btw, not certain, but some of the tour bus/motorhome can be more expensive or at least same price as msport service park (made of trucks and tents)

"The price tag new? Busses like this run 500,000 euros"

Hyundai House is made of over 10 trailers full of those "metal sticks"
so shipping a bus is lot cheaper.

Look what WRC2/3/JWRC teams have in service park, they don´t need fancy houses.

One big problems is that Service Parks have been very popular for spectators, more people visiting than any of stages. Big moneys involved.

[OHL]

Hyundai House is made of over 10 trailers full of those "metal sticks"
so shipping a bus is lot cheaper.

Look what WRC2/3/JWRC teams have in service park, they don´t need fancy houses.

One big problems is that Service Parks have been very popular for spectators, more people visiting than any of stages. Big moneys involved.

A factory WRC team is 80-100 people all in depending on the event and they need to work, rest and eat for up to a week! They do this 14 times per year. A bus is not an option!
There are also guests and the whole thing is at the end of the day a marketing exercise so it has to look nice as well.
Most of the teams have found a good compromise of cost / time / portability that fits their needs in the current format.
Enough buses would be considerably more expensive and extremely impractical compared to what everyone is using now.

Personally, I would like to see the events travel around a little bit and be able to visit more towns. Like has been done in GB with Newtown tyre fitting, but make it more of a service with a few pop up tents and a limited amount of spare parts. The teams already have recce support vans with the needed kit in them. This is grossly oversimplified but something like this is achievable.

[wyler]

Hyundai House is made of over 10 trailers full of those "metal sticks"
so shipping a bus is lot cheaper.

Look what WRC2/3/JWRC teams have in service park, they don´t need fancy houses.

One big problems is that Service Parks have been very popular for spectators, more people visiting than any of stages. Big moneys involved.

Metal stick scan fit in standard ship containers, buses ( how many do you think you need btw) not really.

wrc 2/3 also don't have manufacturer exposure standards and rewards in terms of audience, and don't have that much money to invest on, but they don't use buses anyway.
this is the "not so fancy house" of skoda i. e.: https://www.skoda-storyboard.com/en/wrc2-sardinia-service2/

the thing you call a big problem of service park, is what manus wants and pays for! for reasons well explained in the post just above.

[AnttiL]

When I interviewed Iain Campbell (clerk of the course of Wales Rally GB) he also mentioned getting rid of the expensive service park buildings as a primary way to reduce costs. He also mentioned that the current buildings need a very large area to be put up.


"Standardise the service area setups that can be easily transferable by one transportation company. The Hyundai set up is beautiful but takes a team over a week to build and then four days to dismantle. “

https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/15/wrc-event-in-three-days/

Bear in mind that making a WRC event travel to broader areas has other issues such as the regional support/partnership, longer recce times, more use of single-run stages requires more stage marshalls etc. which increases the costs. In addition, the teams have already complained that having a remote tyre change area is too expensive - they have to rent a van for it!

As for the bus thing, servicing a team of bicycles probably takes less tools and premises than servicing a team of WRC cars...

[the sniper]

As for the bus thing, servicing a team of bicycles probably takes less tools and premises than servicing a team of WRC cars...

I don't think anybody's suggesting that the cars will be towed to events behind team buses, loaded up with some spares... I think this idea is being taken too literally. You'd have a coach or a more easily relocatable hospitality unit attached to a truck for team and corporate facilities. You'd have trucks for some equipment. You'd have simple gazebos for service areas and team catering. This is how servicing has been done before. This is how many privateer teams still operate. It's pretty much how the WRC teams work at tests.

Basically, they don't need to be building facilities the size of car showrooms to service their cars. Particularly on Rally GB, where you haven't even been allowed inside the Hyundai Palace in the service park as a member of the public and can barely see the cars from outside!!!

EDIT: Personally I don't actually mind them having a central service park, where the can build whatever facilities they like. I just want them to facilitate organisers having the option of having one overnight remote service, on some events in a season, at least. You could achieve a lot more with events like the Monte and Rally GB with just that amount of flexibility. I do wonder what the teams would have made of Rally GB's proposed 2020 schedule.

[denkimi]

The cost of the service park is not an issue.
A truck and a tent will do. Everything else is not because they need it, but because they want it to be that big and expensive.

Hyundai has a huge press hospitality area next to their service area. They have 2 complete trailers, just for that.
M-sport can probably do their full service with that material.

[AnttiL]

I don't think anybody's suggesting that the cars will be towed to events behind team buses, loaded up with some spares... I think this idea is being taken too literally.

I didn't mean that, I meant the actual servicing during the event. Just think about tyres and fuel alone, it takes a lot more lugging of gear if you decide to have remote servicing. And the WRC2/3/JWRC/privateers need to be able to do that as well.


You'd have a coach or a more easily relocatable hospitality unit attached to a truck for team and corporate facilities. You'd have trucks for some equipment. You'd have simple gazebos for service areas and team catering. This is how servicing has been done before. This is how many privateer teams still operate. It's pretty much how the WRC teams work at tests. .

The current rules state in the road book where the service area is, whether it's a remote tyre change or the actual service park. Back in the old days of free service, the team and the co-driver spent a huge amount of work preparing a service plan, looking for areas suitable for remote services, asking permissions for houseyards and such. I wouldn't go back to that anymore, but some sort of open areas would still be needed for the remote services. I mean, if you remember the early service parks from the late 90's when you still had many of them? But this would still mean some trucks driving around the rally route, in possible traffic jams. Also, when a WRC team comes in for a test of one car, they have a good bit of equipment and trucks with them.

This solution would also mean the media has to go remote as well. Most of the reporters who are at a WRC event don't really leave the service park during the event. They are there waiting for the media zones and writing stories in the meantime.

From the angle of the event organizers, they would have another "special stage" to arrange, this remote service area would need also marshalls and other personnel, which are not so easy to find these days. You can't assume you can just transfer the main service park marshalls to the remote service park.


you haven't even been allowed inside the Hyundai Palace in the service park as a member of the public and can barely see the cars from outside!!!

Would you think now otherwise, had you been allowed inside ;)


The cost of the service park is not an issue.
A truck and a tent will do. Everything else is not because they need it, but because they want it to be that big and expensive.

Hyundai has a huge press hospitality area next to their service area. They have 2 complete trailers, just for that.
M-sport can probably do their full service with that material.

Limiting the service park hospitality is an interesting topic because it is not in the sporting regulations...the teams have chosen that it's worth the investment and the event organizers are happy to sell the tickets.

Again: as a route enthusiast I wouldn't mind using remote servicing to get some longer and more interesting routes but I just understand it comes with challenges.

[denkimi]

I didn't mean that, I meant the actual servicing during the event. Just think about tyres and fuel alone, it takes a lot more lugging of gear if you decide to have remote servicing. And the WRC2/3/JWRC/privateers need to be able to do that as well.

Tyres and fuel are not an issue, the competitors don't bring those themself.

Per car, everything needed for a short remote service will fit in a smal truck. You don't need a lot of people too, a limited number of mechanics is all.

There is no real technical problem with remote services. I think it's just that the teams and organisers don't see much advantage in it.

[tommeke_B]

I didn't mean that, I meant the actual servicing during the event. Just think about tyres and fuel alone, it takes a lot more lugging of gear if you decide to have remote servicing. And the WRC2/3/JWRC/privateers need to be able to do that as well.

I don't think remote service is a problem for privateers. I helped a team for Rally Portugal back in 2013 (privately owned S2000 car). Let me sum up only a few of the costs that are roughly the same for every privateer team (regardless where they come from):
- Entry fee: roughly 4000 euros (I think)
- Fuel for rally car: 5000 euros
- Tyres: roughly 4500 euros
Then there's the costs to get the service truck there, fly all team members, accommodation, recce car and fuel, food etc. Not even talking about running costs of the car itself. A few hundred euros for a rental van is not going to make a big difference for privateers, regardless of the car they drive.

The only reason big teams don't like remote service is because their VIP-castles are going to be abandoned throughout the day, and it doesn't fit their plan. Rallying today seems to be all about serving a delicious meal to the guests and media invited by sponsors.

[AndyRAC]

The only reason big teams don't like remote service is because their VIP-castles are going to be abandoned throughout the day, and it doesn't fit their plan. Rallying today seems to be all about serving a delicious meal to the guests and media invited by sponsors.

If the teams, sponsors, etc are happy with the current set up, then who are we to argue? However, they're simply not looking at other ways that might bring more value/exposure to each event/ the sport. What works in Finland, doesn't work in GB - but most of us have been saying that for years, it's become a broken record.

It's no good people (the teams, Promoter) moaning about lack of interest from sponsors, manufacturers, media, etc when they don't/can't change.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

As someone said on the recent Dirtfish podcast, WRC should make the events an 'Adventure Experience' for VIP's, following the rally into the stages.

The current hospitality for guests in the SP structures is like a 'poor man's F1'.

[AnttiL]

As someone said on the recent Dirtfish podcast, WRC should make the events an 'Adventure Experience' for VIP's, following the rally into the stages.

The current hospitality for guests in the SP structures is like a 'poor man's F1'.

I don't know about other rallies, but Rally Finland has a huge number of VIP guest paddocks on the stages, complete with catering, drinks, TV screens, celebrity hosts, even helicopter flights. It's a big business, mostly run by individual entrepreneurs, not the rally organization. I know that not all rallies have the terrain to make it, but the open fields allow you to put up a tent and give space for helicopters to land. Probably Colin's Crest in Sweden has something similar?

[AnttiL]

It's no good people (the teams, Promoter) moaning about lack of interest from sponsors, manufacturers, media, etc when they don't/can't change.

You must understand that the lack of sponsor interest for rallying nowadays comes from a totally different issue than the event format

[the sniper]

You must understand that the lack of sponsor interest for rallying nowadays comes from a totally different issue than the event format

It's far easier for sponsors to justify giving up on something when it already no longer serves the wider public it once reached. Many aspects affecting the future of this sport are outside of the control of people in rallying, event formats largely aren't.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/stohl-its-possible-for-wrc-to-go-all-electric-now

Here’s another view to the future.

[Franky]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/stohl-its-possible-for-wrc-to-go-all-electric-now

Here’s another view to the future.

Don't think it's doable in the very near future as the charging grid is not so widely spread. For some reason I presume the charging times he mentions are with the highest power output.

And that's not even to think about the potential safety hazards.

But from a marketing point of view, it could be good. Just think how many automobile manufacturers are trying to find their way in the EVs currently.

[AnttiL]

Yes, lots of challenges still for full EV's, but still promising to hear the charging wouldn't be an issue.

EV's should have their own series or class before being taken to WRC level. It doesn't happen overnight.

[AndyRAC]

You must understand that the lack of sponsor interest for rallying nowadays comes from a totally different issue than the event format

No offence, but I've watched enough sports over the years to know what does and doesn't work. I don't need to understand anything.

[NickRally]

Yes, lots of challenges still for full EV's, but still promising to hear the charging wouldn't be an issue.

EV's should have their own series or class before being taken to WRC level. It doesn't happen overnight.

To give some perspective here (in a positive way), a high performance motorsport battery, i.e. the F1 kind for example, can be fully charged in less than a minute, it takes a design with proper cooling to achieve this, but it is and has been doable for many years now. Life may not be as long as the battery in your mobile phone, but neither is the F1 or WRC IC engines' longevity as good as the one in the average road car. The problem is it takes vast amounts of power to charge these batteries in less than a minute, which in an F1 car is available through the extremely "violent" braking events, but obviously significantly less so at the average roadside charging station. So the ball is entirely in the charging facilities court currently as far as motorsport on "open" roads is concerned. We need service vans with 1MW diesel generators on the back positioned strategically along the route or chasing the cars :)

[Steve Boyd]

We need service vans with 1MW diesel generators on the back positioned strategically along the route or chasing the cars :)
That'll be fun! Trucks with 7 to 8 ton generators on the back charging round the countrside. Not sure the environmentalists will be happy though.

[NickRally]

That'll be fun! Trucks with 7 to 8 ton generators on the back charging round the countrside. Not sure the environmentalists will be happy though.

Yeah, a bit of sarcasm on my part there - unfortunately to sometimes portray ourselves (human beings in general) as environmentally friendly, we damage the environment even more.

[AnttiL]

Currently the cars are chased by fuel trucks, what’s the difference?

[NickRally]

Currently the cars are chased by fuel trucks, what’s the difference?

I guess the reason there are fuel trucks chasing the cars is that the WRC engines require the special/contracted fuels for them.

Obviously, if you have access to it in the countryside, electricity is a bit more of an universal medium, despite the differences in some parameters both sides of the pond, so if the infrastructure was there, it will be a lot more efficient to tap into it rather than having generators of unimaginable size being transported around.

But to return to what you said, quoting "what’s the difference?" - isn't that the point, we want it to be different, if there is no difference why do it.

As I said, my outlook on electric cars is very positive, but what I am saying here is, we need to put a bit more substance behind our efforts to be "green" rather then just portray ourselves as "green".

[NickRally]

Actually to add, I understand that companies would do the above for marketing reasons, but as I said, I prefer a bit more substance to projects.

[AnttiL]

I guess the reason there are fuel trucks chasing the cars is that the WRC engines require the special/contracted fuels for them.

Obviously, if you have access to it in the countryside, electricity is a bit more of an universal medium, despite the differences in some parameters both sides of the pond, so if the infrastructure was there, it will be a lot more efficient to tap into it rather than having generators of unimaginable size being transported around.

But to return to what you said, quoting "what’s the difference?" - isn't that the point, we want it to be different, if there is no difference why do it.

As I said, my outlook to electric cars is very positive, but what I am saying here is, we need to put a bit more substance behind our efforts to be "green" rather then just portray ourselves as "green".

I thought the diesel generator example was exaggerated, but I wanted to add on it. I would want to believe some of the charging stations to be used for WRC cars would have access to a high voltage network instead of having to rely on diesel generators. However, still electric power generated on diesel generators creates less emissions than ICE's, because EV's are more efficient, at least in road cars.

I've said earlier that the point of hybrid (or electric) WRC cars is not so much about making the emissions of the sport smaller, but more about the manufacturers wanting to market more "green" models and technologies - or furthermore, not wanting to market non-green technology.

[AnttiL]

No offence, but I've watched enough sports over the years to know what does and doesn't work. I don't need to understand anything.

Just saying that the world is a different place than 20 years ago.

[SubaruNorway]

Formula E generators runs on glycerin which is a by product of biodiesel
https://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2016/june/insight-formula-e-s-emission-free-charging/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Electric Opel E-Corsa..

https://youtu.be/059NBHeNCTw

[wyler]

Electric Opel E-Corsa..

https://youtu.be/059NBHeNCTw

to me, it sounds weird only on hairpins, the faster parts feel surprisingly "normal".

[dimviii]

my ears bleeding...

[Rally Power]

For once Matton is right: there’s no way full EV’s could get into the WRC without a major downscaling of the events, turning the series into a joke.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-wrc-cant-compromise-dna-for-electric-switch/

Anyway it’s useless to compare a 6 laps/4 minutes WRX race on a circuit of around 1km with the normal length/duration of a WRC stage and suggest that full EV’s are ready for the WRC; they aren’t and they wont be any time soon.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Paddon is still working on his Hyundai EV:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.topgear.com/car-news/motorsport/800bhp-kiwi-kona-rally-car-now-has-carbon-bodykit%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/paddon-to-test-an-electric-car-for-first-time/amp/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Delay on 2022 safety cell...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-running-late-on-2022-safety-cell-development

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Still seems way more questions than answers for 2022.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-race-to-be-ready-for-the-wrcs-hybrid-era

[wyler]

to me it seems only usual toyota's fuss.

[AnttiL]

“And, from what we see from the early numbers, the battery and motor and all the new parts in the car is going to add a lot of weight. When you also take away the [center] diff and the changes coming in the suspension, I think it could be losing time to an R5 car in some places.”

It has already happened on super specials (or remember what Huttunen did on the Torsby stage in 2019)...I wouldn't be worried about this.

[wyler]

It has already happened on super specials (or remember what Huttunen did on the Torsby stage in 2019)...I wouldn't be worried about this.

and should be good for the sport.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

With a hot version of the 2021 i20, the i20N coming, is it safe to assume Hyundai will also keep the i20 hatch as the 'base car' for the 2022 WRC car ?

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/99974/new-hyundai-i20-n-pictures

If so all 3 manu's are staying with their small hatchbacks.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-engine-specs-to-be-frozen-for-five-years-from-2021/

Engine specs will be frozen in April 2021 for five years, meaning the teams cannot develop their engines during that time.

Also it says M-Sport are not bringing new updated parts yet because they have a stock of old-spec parts that need to be used first. The new engine will come in Monte 2021 and new aero maybe in Sardegna. Sad situation for them.

[Franky]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-engine-specs-to-be-frozen-for-five-years-from-2021/

Engine specs will be frozen in April 2021 for five years, meaning the teams cannot develop their engines during that time.


So basically the team that doesn't do a good enough job by then, is fucked for the next five years...

[AnttiL]

Also notice that the teams have requested this limitation. Even though you cannot change new parts, you can still work on the setup of things and focus the development on other areas in the car.

[Tauri_J]

I dont think its a big issue for the teams, after all they all agreed to that. They know engines are quite close in terms of performance.

[denkimi]

So basically the team that doesn't do a good enough job by then, is fucked for the next five years...
We all saw how well that worked in the f1.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-engine-freeze-set-for-official-go-ahead/

[T16]

I’m sure I’ll get told off for posting this in the wrong section, but heck.... could things get any worse.!?
I get it, it’s just a consultation, but still a little worrying:

https://www.forestryengland.uk/news/forestry-england-asking-views-motorsport-the-nations-forests

[AndyRAC]

To be honest, I can't help but think that if the sport was run better in the UK, was more popular and received decent exposure which brought in all kinds of sponsors/££££££ then ForestryEngland wouldn't be bothered about motorsport on their land; in fact they may even welcome it. They even state it themselves that the sport isn't as popular as it was; yet you'll get some people, maybe even those in the sport saying the opposite.

We need as many people as possible to e-mail them and make them aware of the benefits that motorsport brings to Forestry and the surrounding areas.

[the sniper]

To be honest, I can't help but think that if the sport was run better in the UK, was more popular and received decent exposure which brought in all kinds of sponsors/££££££ then ForestryEngland wouldn't be bothered about motorsport on their land; in fact they may even welcome it. They even state it themselves that the sport isn't as popular as it was; yet you'll get some people, maybe even those in the sport saying the opposite.

There's no doubt about that in my mind. I fear it's too late, but if nothing else, this might give all involved a bit of a wake up call. The alienation of the public and failure to recognise the value of investing in creating/sustaining rallies as public events of note rather than just rallies has killed the sport. MotorsportUK should be ashamed by what the sport has become under their 'leadership'. No discernible strategy whatsoever, more like an unmanaged decline. I had hoped David Richards might turn the situation around, but he seems to me to have washed his hands of rallying, having failed as the WRC Promoter and presumably lost a lot of money in doing so.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-wrc-debate-leaving-teams-going-round-in-circles/

[Sulland]

New Hybrid Rally1 car will be ready in 22 or 23.
What is lost if we go R5+ as gapfiller top car, with a bit more spoilers and maybe a bit bigger restrictor.
All customers should be able to buy an upgrade kit.
Toyota need to build an R5, but will be able to, and will mke money from it.
Tech upgrades will have to be frozen, or maybe one joker.

In These corona times, motorsport departments are struggeling to get the needed money from the board, so something that will save money will be welcomed.

[AnttiL]

Q:
We are seeing with the new format of rallies now that Sundays have become a proper day. Would you prefer it to be that way in future?
OT
Actually I would say that, currently, the format is pretty nice. We can come to the event one day later and still we have a proper competition. It shouldn’t’ just be for this year, it should be generally like this.

and Ogier gave thumbs up

https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-rally-turkey-pre-event-press-conference-transcript-0

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Absolute Rally podcast ft. Hayden Paddon on his EV rally car and the future:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0TWPazXJIWhh3eANpupGHz?si=SCXHB47kTeSVkCd1_xWUWg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Not sounding good !

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/delay-on-wrc-hybrid-deliveries-as-entry-deadline-moves/

[AndyRAC]

To be honest, the WRC should have gone hybrid a while ago; all seems 'too little too late'. The WRC is in danger of being left behind.

And the news today from Honda is going to leave many manufacturers in motorsport wondering their next move. How longer is ICE relevant for manufacturers? I'm not sure it is.

[Francis44]

Go full electric already then.... And instead of 2 or 3 manus at the start in 2022 be ready to have the incredible amount of ZERO.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The hybrid issue with Hyundai and also the fact they are freezing their workers wages looks like there may a problem for them to stay in the WRC.

However they wont want to leave their biggest car sales rivals, Toyota, an open goal to win the Championship for years...

[mknight]

Both VW and Citroen said it out loud already 2 years ago. WRC should have gone hybrid already for 2020-2021. Could probably have been done with some very mild hybrid/electric turbo just attached to the 2017 cars. Perhaps it would be possible not to increase the cost too much then ( since most of the car was already paid for). Then this hybrid could have been refined for next 2 years while getting ready for electric.
Instead they now have to invest more money on making completely new hybrids which probably won't last long.

I'll keep repeating that it's a bit of a tradition for WRC to be behind the trend in automotive industry. (turbos, downsizing...)

[pantealex]

Some people still think that allowing 4WD was biggest mistake ever ;)

[AnttiL]

Some people still think that allowing 4WD was biggest mistake ever ;)

or banning Group B....or introducing WRC instead of Group A...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... but for 2017 they focussed on more power and aero when they could've seen hybrid was already the way road cars were going.

The 17-spec WRC cars have been great for the fans but not for the long-term health of the sport at the top level.

[AnttiL]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... but for 2017 they focussed on more power and aero when they could've seen hybrid was already the way road cars were going.

Global warming was a thing already before 2017 but the IPCC report in 2018 made a big impact and probably changed the strategies of car manufacturers (and possibly also FIA / WRC Promoter)


The 17-spec WRC cars have been great for the fans but not for the long-term health of the sport at the top level.
Again, you can only guess what would have happened had they kept the 2016 regulations or went to something completely different, but I know a couple of people in addition to myself who returned to follow the sport because the new cars were like the new Group B.

Of course, it also helped to increase the popularity of the series because the dominant team quit and the title fight(s) became more interesting. And to top that with All Live...yeah, difficult to say how much the car regulations made an effect.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The '17-spec cars looked great in photos and if you saw them close-up at service, but in action watching them stage-side, they were still a small noisy hatch similar to before.

I wouldnt say they were more spectacular, faster yes, but not that much more exciting. The power increase was kind of offset by the aero and diffs so they stuck to the road.

It's now looking like a last hurrah for traditional WRC cars but at what cost...

[gorganl2000]

we are all entitled to our opinions...and my opinion is that the 17 spec cars look awesome and are a noticeable step up from the prior wrc cars.
i've never seen them in person, but i've seen all the prior models. All i get to see are the videos posted on here and social media (youtube, instagram, twitter, etc.) and i can say i look forward to seeing these 17 spec cars in actions. the videos i see look great. the rally drivers say there is a distinct difference between them and the prior models, positive reviews, and their opinions must also count for something. i acknowledge they must be more expensive to manufacture and run, but that has usually been the case in motorsport. i don't know what the future of wrc holds, but i'll enjoy these cars and wrc while it lasts

[T16]

The '17-spec cars looked great in photos and if you saw them close-up at service, but in action watching them stage-side, they were still a small noisy hatch similar to before.

I wouldnt say they were more spectacular, faster yes, but not that much more exciting. The power increase was kind of offset by the aero and diffs so they stuck to the road.

It's now looking like a last hurrah for traditional WRC cars but at what cost...

Eddie, they ARE definitely more spectacular, but I guess everyone has their own opinion.
Out of interest, have you watched them live in a forest stage, or just super specials?

[Rally Power]

The '17-spec cars looked great in photos and if you saw them close-up at service, but in action watching them stage-side, they were still a small noisy hatch similar to before.
I wouldnt say they were more spectacular, faster yes, but not that much more exciting. The power increase was kind of offset by the aero and diffs so they stuck to the road.
Seriously?!


Anyway, it’s fair to remember that the WRC has been changing with all stakeholders support: manus asked for more powerful and spectacular cars (in line with 2014 WRC fans survey) and the FIA released ’17 rules; the promoter decided for a less eurocentric calendar and foreign events were added, with manus blessing and for new crowds joy; Todt pushed hybrid cars idea, manus followed it and hybrids will appear sooner than expected (yep, the original time frame for ’17 rules was 3+3 years); fans and manus complained about the series coverage and the promoter developed (better late than never) All Live; manus are now asking for running costs reduction and the FIA is already announcing less and shorter rallys, besides tech developments limitation.

This said, if Hyundai decide to leave it won’t certainly be, just like it wasn’t in Citroen case, for the rules, the coverage or even the budget.

[EstWRC]

if it would be up to me, i would never loose these 17' generation cars :D

i have seen both in live, the previous generation and now these ones and i can say they are way more spectacular ( i really dont understand how EDDIE can say what he says). i dont know anyone who has said they suck or they dont like them. Yeah for sure most of my friends follow WRC because of Tänak and Järveoja but they have also praised a lot these cars, saying too they look awesome and are spectacular watch.

i remember when i saw the first tests vids of these new cars, especially on faster roads, i was fascinated by the cornering speed. (and i still am)

i just love this generation but i also understand we have to move forward.

[RS]

Many governments are talking about even banning the sale of new hybrids from 2030. I suppose in the not too distant future rallying will have to go all electric or become the plaything of private teams.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I see the usual suspects 'misinterpreting' what I say.

I never said the I didnt like the '17-spec cars. They look great in pictures and are very fast. But on the stages are they a quantum leap like Group B was from Group 4 ?

It all depends what you class as exciting - sheer speed yes, but even the prior 2016 cars were damn fast. These new cars never look on the limit except in the hands of the very top boys, and even then just now and then.

How do you guys define 'more spectacular' ? When they flash past at 200 kph in the forest what extra do you see in a '17 car ? I just see a blur and noise which the '16 cars were doing pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeeV06bmTfs

[T16]

I see the usual suspects 'misinterpreting' what I say.

I never said the I didnt like the '17-spec cars. They look great in pictures and are very fast. But on the stages are they a quantum leap like Group B was from Group 4 ?

It all depends what you class as exciting - sheer speed yes, but even the prior 2016 cars were damn fast. These new cars never look on the limit except in the hands of the very top boys, and even then just now and then.

How do you guys define 'more spectacular' ? When they flash past at 200 kph in the forest what extra do you see in a '17 car ? I just see a blur and noise which the '16 cars were doing pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeeV06bmTfs

Eddie, have you ever seen one live in a forest stage?

[mknight]

if it would be up to me, i would never loose these 17' generation cars :D


2 out of 4 manus basically gone in 1 year, at that rate it would turn to 1 team series like the WEC did when Porsche left.

Anyway I think 2017 were a good idea when they came. But extending them without changes for 2020 and 2021 wasn't.

Some small hybridization should have been added already for 2020, possibly with offset in other areas to keep the cost from escalating too much. For example by limiting damper options/development.

Skoda (VW) were relatively vocal about not liking them staying the same and subsequently Skoda never joined. Citroen was also saying similar things when leaving, even thought it was partly an excuse.

[wyler]

I see the usual suspects 'misinterpreting' what I say.

I never said the I didnt like the '17-spec cars. They look great in pictures and are very fast. But on the stages are they a quantum leap like Group B was from Group 4 ?

It all depends what you class as exciting - sheer speed yes, but even the prior 2016 cars were damn fast. These new cars never look on the limit except in the hands of the very top boys, and even then just now and then.

How do you guys define 'more spectacular' ? When they flash past at 200 kph in the forest what extra do you see in a '17 car ? I just see a blur and noise which the '16 cars were doing pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeeV06bmTfs

i really think you maybe went to wrong places. i saw different monte, sardinia, germany. on the limit (or above) in most of the times. let's say 7 out of 10. then yes couple of boring moments every times, but because of the road.

[tommeke_B]

Seen both generations of cars plenty of times on all surfaces... Both have their positives and negatives. The previous 1.6T generation was amazing when it came, thanks to the mechanical diffs, everyone remembering the last generation of 2L WRC cars knows how boring these were, especially on tarmac... The first 1.6T were very accessible to privateers, especially in the beginning. In some events there were 20 (or more) WRC cars, those times are gone. Having guys like Solberg(s), Ostberg, Kubica, Novikov, PG Andersson, Bouffier, Rantanen etc mixing up with the field was great, even if it were some one-shots. Current generation has proved too expensive for that... Also seeing cars completely sideways 30-40 meters before a corner was a far more common sight in that generation than with the current one. The current generation however is a completely different world, they are far faster, not only are the engines far more powerful, the cornering speed is just unbelievable. Seeing them in Poland, Finland, Sweden and faster sections in Wales was simply stunning.

I think that the next generation, combining the powerful engines, aero and putting the step back to mechanical diffs, will be very, very exciting to see! The fact that suspension travel will be limited will only make things more exciting to see... :)

[Rally Power]

Seen both generations of cars plenty of times on all surfaces... Both have their positives and negatives. The previous 1.6T generation was amazing when it came, thanks to the mechanical diffs, everyone remembering the last generation of 2L WRC cars knows how boring these were, especially on tarmac... The first 1.6T were very accessible to privateers, especially in the beginning. In some events there were 20 (or more) WRC cars, those times are gone. Having guys like Solberg(s), Ostberg, Kubica, Novikov, PG Andersson, Bouffier, Rantanen etc mixing up with the field was great, even if it were some one-shots. Current generation has proved too expensive for that... Also seeing cars completely sideways 30-40 meters before a corner was a far more common sight in that generation than with the current one. The current generation however is a completely different world, they are far faster, not only are the engines far more powerful, the cornering speed is just unbelievable. Seeing them in Poland, Finland, Sweden and faster sections in Wales was simply stunning.

I think that the next generation, combining the powerful engines, aero and putting the step back to mechanical diffs, will be very, very exciting to see! The fact that suspension travel will be limited will only make things more exciting to see... :)

Agree with all your post, apart the last sentence; current spec suspensions make the cars way more effective and even safer.

[er88]

Eddie you're chatting pish. If you've ever been in a real forest stage to watch these cars i find it impossible for any rally fan to claim they aren't a big step up and hugely spectacular. It's just weird to claim otherwise.

History being re-written on here - these cars have been FANTASTIC for the WRC. All events seem to be increasing in spectator numbers since the 17 regs were introduced, the championship battles have been some of most interesting ever - compared with what he had in the previous 15yrs. The TV viewers have increased, WRC+ has taken watching a rally to all new heights..., and there's a big demand for new countries trying to join an already full calendar.

Manufacturers will always come and go - no matter what regs you have. That's part and parcel of motorsport. Ofcourse Hybrid could've come earlier..., but if Hyundai leave it might also have something to do with one of the biggest global pandemics and the consequences of that..., rather than new/old car regulations.

VW unexpectedly pulled out because of diesel-gate, Citroen might have gone in a few years anyway (although pushed for hybrid), but they spat their dummy out after Ogier left them and constant struggles with poor car development.

Only way to get the WRC full of new manufacturers is to go electric. Until then the sport will probably always fluctuate between 2/3/4 manufacturers.

[T16]

Eddie... I'm going to call that you have never seen a 2017 car in a proper gravel / forest stage, or if you have, then you really know sweet FA about the sport you talk a lot about.

As for the future, we really need some out of the box thinking now, because the 2022 regs don't seem to have knitted the teams together like they should have done and certainly haven't brought any new manufacturers in.
Is electric the way forward? Probably, but I have this worrying feeling that to save face, the FIA will still press on with hybrid and if it's a five year change cycle, then really, how many manufacturers are going to be pushing hybrids in 2027?
I hate feeling so negative about the future of this sport, but it's like we're sleep walking straight into a championship that won't serve any purpose to the teams it needs to attract.

[Rally Power]

As for the future, we really need some out of the box thinking now, because the 2022 regs don't seem to have knitted the teams together like they should have done and certainly haven't brought any new manufacturers in.
Is electric the way forward? Probably, but I have this worrying feeling that to save face, the FIA will still press on with hybrid and if it's a five year change cycle, then really, how many manufacturers are going to be pushing hybrids in 2027?
I hate feeling so negative about the future of this sport, but it's like we're sleep walking straight into a championship that won't serve any purpose to the teams it needs to attract.

Let’s stay calm, avoiding to get ‘electric hysteria’. All major motorsport series are using (and will continue to use) Hybrids and unless the FIA decide to ruin 50 years of world rally heritage, turning the WRC into a Mickey Mouse competition (with endless loops on 5km stages), there’s no way this sport can use full EV’s any time soon.

If the existing agreement on the 2022 rules is broken (the current 3 teams were in favor of a high tech control hybrid system and the FIA launched a bid accordingly), there’s an easy way to solve the problem: the FIA creates a mild hybrid R5+ top category and makes a deal to compensate Compact Dynamics, the company that won the hybrid system bid.

There’s absolutely no need to reinvent the sport or turn it into a joke.

[T16]

Let’s stay calm, avoiding to get ‘electric hysteria’. All major motorsport series are using (and will continue to use) Hybrids and unless the FIA decide to ruin 50 years of world rally heritage, turning the WRC into a Mickey Mouse competition (with endless loops on 5km stages), there’s no way this sport can use full EV’s any time soon.

If the existing agreement on the 2022 rules is broken (the current 3 teams were in favor of a high tech control hybrid system and the FIA launched a bid accordingly), there’s an easy way to solve the problem: the FIA creates a mild hybrid R5+ top category and makes a deal to compensate Compact Dynamics, the company that won the hybrid system bid.

There’s absolutely no need to reinvent the sport or turn it into a joke.

Look, I don't want it to go electric, but if it means survival, then fair enough.
Regarding the FIA changing 50 years of heritage; It won't be them that decides, they will inevitably follow what the manufacturers want in terms of a marketing vessel. If that is electric, the FIA will have to go this way and just find a way around the potential issues.
It will be a while off yet though and I agree that a U-turn and re-route to R5+ seems potentially like a solution, but I just can't help think that the next 12 months are going to expose a lot of weaknesses in the structure of the sport at this level.

[denkimi]

All major motorsport series are using (and will continue to use) Hybrids and unless the FIA decide to ruin 50 years of world rally heritage, turning the WRC into a Mickey Mouse competition (with endless loops on 5km stages), there’s no way this sport can use full EV’s any time soon.

I was recently thinking about it, and actually they could. It could perhaps even be one of the easiest motorsports to do it.

If they were to provide quick charging zones before each stage, and possibly before every long liaison, they could go full electric.

They would have to adapt the timing and maybe hire some generators, but that would solve the short range problem.

I don't like it, i don't want it, but it should be possible.

[Rally Power]

Look, I don't want it to go electric, but if it means survival, then fair enough.
Regarding the FIA changing 50 years of heritage; It won't be them that decides, they will inevitably follow what the manufacturers want in terms of a marketing vessel. If that is electric, the FIA will have to go this way and just find a way around the potential issues.

Who’s saying that manus want Rally to go full electric? Apart VW (that turn green from night to day after the Dieselgate), no manu is stupid enough to push for a tech that’s not ready to serve rally main marketing purpose: proving that average looking cars can surpass the most extreme challenges on daily roads.

Besides, apart some populist politicians, who can assure that Hybrids will end on a near future? Did you know that many of those German manus that jumped into FE to save their faces are now reconsidering to get into the 2022/23 WEC-LM/IMSA Hybrid formula (LMDh)? And that Hyundai, through their American arm, is being pushed to also get into LMDh? https://racer.com/2020/09/18/imsa-reveals-more-lmdh-technical-regulations/




If they were to provide quick charging zones before each stage, and possibly before every long liaison, they could go full electric.
They would have to adapt the timing and maybe hire some generators, but that would solve the short range problem.


That's a big if and besides the autonomy issues there are also safety questions and, most of all, reliability founded doubts, considering Rally extreme challenges. Again, unless we turn this sport into a Mickey Mouse competition, full EV’s aren’t ready for it.

[T16]

Who’s saying that manus want Rally to go full electric? Apart VW (that turn green from night to day after the Dieselgate), no manu is stupid enough to push for a tech that’s not ready to serve rally main marketing purpose: proving that average looking cars can surpass the most extreme challenges on daily roads.

Besides, apart some populist politicians, who can assure that Hybrids will end on a near future? Did you know that many of those German manus that jumped into FE to save their faces are now reconsidering to get into the 2022/23 WEC-LM/IMSA Hybrid formula (LMDh)? And that Hyundai, through their American arm, is being pushed to also get into LMDh? https://racer.com/2020/09/18/imsa-reveals-more-lmdh-technical-regulations/




That's a big if and besides the autonomy issues there are also safety questions and, most of all, reliability founded doubts, considering Rally extreme challenges. Again, unless we turn this sport into a Mickey Mouse competition, full EV’s aren’t ready for it.

I’m not saying the manufacturers are saying the want to go electric.
I said you claiming the FIA make the decision is inaccurate. They will ultimately serve the demands of the manufacturer.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-linked-with-move-away-from-wrc-from-2023

Hyundai possibly quitting rallying at the end of 2021

EDIT: end of 2021, not 2022

[EstWRC]

Tänak finishes his career at m-sport then?

[tommeke_B]

Tänak finishes his career at m-sport then?

In their Fiesta Rally2 then?

[AnttiL]

In their Fiesta Rally2 then?

well if WRC would move to Rally2's, Hyundai would have a car...even the article says that Rally2 and Rally3 projects will continue.

It's a different thing who will pay the drivers' salaries or running th ecars.

[tommeke_B]

Honestly I think the move to Rally2 as top category is the only long term option, despite the negative consequences it could have for national rallying. It's never been a question if this would end, only when, the coronavirus could speed up this process very rapidly... We'll be very, very lucky if we still have 3 manufacturers competing with their WRC cars next year. ;)

[AndyRAC]

I said a while ago (on another forum I think) in a post Covid world there will be less manufacturers willing to spend money on motorsport programmes; as such, there will be a battle between series to attract/ keep them. The WRC has to be careful that when the music stops, they have a chair to sit on. These rumours are possibly a warning shot.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Seems to be a question of what's more important to have in the 2022 WRC - Hybrid or Hyundai ?

I cant see the WRC backing down and Toyota will be happy if Hyundai pull out leaving them in a dominant position. And M-Sport Ford seem ok with going hybrid asap.

Adamo sounds worried and rightly so.

[tommeke_B]

There's no reason for Toyota to be happy if Hyundai leaves. A title is only as valuable as the competition fighting for it.

[Tom K]

It is true. But in WEC/Le Mans they don't seem to mind to much :)

[T16]

Got a feeling they won’t even be around for 2021.

[RS]

I presume the mild hybrid rules for ‘Rally2’ cars are much cheaper and easier to implement than the full hybrid system proposed for ‘Rally 1’ cars?

How about lower world categories and regional championships continue with standard ‘Rally 2s’ and the top category can include the mild hybrid technology, perhaps slowly increasing the 10bhp boost and one or two other improvements (more aero?)

Sure, the current generation cars are great to watch but would we rather see 6 of those, or maybe 15-20 Rally2+?

Hopefully Hyundai make a decision soon and the FIA quickly react.

[Eli]

If the past showed us anything is that the FIA and the WRC promoter are as stubborn as donkeys and unfortunately it seems like that's not going to change any time soon and soon enough we'll be down to Toyota & M-Sport....and if they continue in this path, we can wave our WRC goodbye...I do wish they'd be less ignorant of the situation and stopped dragging their legs around...However I am aware there are a lot of parts in motion...but then again there's a reason why it's them managing it and not us....

[T16]

From Gerard Quinn’s Twitter today:

“Hyundai linked with move away from WRC from 2023 - I must say I'm not surprised. After 2022 the sport will have little relevance for manufacturers seeking a return on investment.”

That’s the view from someone who, until recently, was very much on the inside.

Really worrying times and like Eli says, there is a lot going on and a lot to take into account.
I still can’t help feeling like the whole sport is, in absolute broad daylight, sleep-walking itself into a disaster.

[AnttiL]

Remember that the world around the sport is also changing, some things cannot be prevented.

[T16]

Remember that the world around the sport is also changing, some things cannot be prevented.

I think the whole world knows the world is changing, so to speak. It still doesn't seem like those making decisions for the future of the sport are pulling even in the slightest same direction.

[AnttiL]

Gerard also said:


"The days of the manufacturer being a cash cow for the sport and its exhorbitant running/regulatory costs are over. It is a cost no longer necessary to create excitement around a manufacturer brand so more is not the solution. If anything the sport thrives on private investment."

https://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/1318158300320587782

How could the WRC change this with their own decisions? How should/could they convince manufacturers still investing money in WRC?

[macebig]

Rally 2 should be made top category from 2022. No other realistic solution. Cars even more expensive than the current aren't gonna cut it. Allowing privateers back in the top category is only gonna help WRC.

[T16]

Gerard also said:



https://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/1318158300320587782

How could the WRC change this with their own decisions? How should/could they convince manufacturers still investing money in WRC?


a) that's his opinion and he may not be correct.
b) your second question is the million dollar question. Who knows.. hybrid / full electric.

I find it interesting that he thinks manufacturers no longer require excitement to be built around a brand. If so, then why do other motorsport disciplines seemingly desire manufacturer involvement. And if the WRC was no longer a sport that needed manufacturer inclusion, then what?... would anyone bother building cars still? Got to be honest, his tweet has confused my thinking even further.

[Rally Power]

Relax guys, if Hyundai really decide to pull out, the Rally1 Hybrid rules will simply die. In 2018 the FIA has established a minimum of 3 manus to turn WRX Supercars class into a full electric category; with only 2 available there was no rules change. They won’t do differently in WRC case.

Besides, once Mr. Wilson is in favor of a Super Rally2 solution, why would he sign for Rally1 Hybrids and face alone the all mighty Toyota Gazoo team?

Yep, Matton seems to be a stubborn fellow, but on this one he’ll have to come with a B plan, sooner or later.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

There's no reason for Toyota to be happy if Hyundai leaves. A title is only as valuable as the competition fighting for it.

They are in serious competition to be the top-selling brand and pretty much hate each other.

Being able to boast being WRC Champions on their ads is what matters. Not giving Toyota an 'open goal' is the best chance we have of Hyundai staying.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Relax guys, if Hyundai really decide to pull out, the Rally1 Hybrid rules will simply die. In 2018 the FIA has established a minimum of 3 manus to turn WRX Supercars class into a full electric category; with only 2 available there was no rules change. They won’t do differently in WRC case.

Besides, once Mr. Wilson is in favor of a Super Rally2 solution, why would he sign for Rally1 Hybrids and face alone the all mighty Toyota Gazoo team?

Yep, Matton seems to be a stubborn fellow, but on this one he’ll have to come with a B plan, sooner or later.

Is this 'three Manus required rule' a fact for WRC ?

And what if Toyota & Ford M-Sport wont continue without going hybrid...

[Rally Power]

It is true. But in WEC/Le Mans they don't seem to mind to much :)

That's a different situation; WEC’s high tech Hybrid rules were endorsed by 5 manus, back in 2014. Through the years only Toyota was left, as they were desperate to finally get their Le Mans win; after it they were the first to sign for LM new rules and are already testing their 2021 Hypercar.

On Gerard Quinn it’s not hard to imagine, once he was always close to MSport, that he may be pointing to Rally2 mild Hybrids as the way to go.

Btw, can we say that it’s just a coincidence having both news, Rally2 Hybrids launch in 2023 and Hyundai asking for the new WRC rules delay, almost at the same time?

[pantealex]

It was kind of said here before but I still write it with my own words:

WRX (World Rallycross Championship) did cancel their decision for moving to fully electronic cars

Reason: Manufacturers were not interested and privateers did say that it´s too expensive.

Maybe this has nothing to do with WRC or maybe it has. Let´s wait and see.

[Mirek]

Guys, as we discussed already in the past. It's unfortunately a fact that the society is changing and that the marketing value of motorsport will reasonably decrease in the future due to the very simple fact that promoting green energies via motorsport simply can not work becuase of the very principle that ecology and motorsport are oxymorons. Most of the petrolheads who create largest part of the motorsport audience refuse green energies, especially electricity and the people who buy electric cars largely ignore or outright refuse motorsport as a whole.

I would not put that much weight to the public talk, be it from manufacturers or FIA because in my opinion behind the curtain there are serious discussions of the carmaker managing boards how to replace the motorsport in their future marketing activities. In that case they can use whatever excuse comes to their hand to quit at any time. Not saying that FIA is not part of the problem, of course.

IMHO FIA shall ASAP start to addapt the rules to be friendliest possible for the privateers because those will most likely stay while the future with the manufacturers it's at least uncertain.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rally2 cars with 'Mild' hybrid only starting in 2023 will be so far behind the times I dont see the point for Manufacturers. How can they claim this proves their technology when it will have already been in road cars for years.

[Mirek]

Rally2 cars with 'Mild' hybrid only starting in 2023 will be so far behind the times I dont see the point for Manufacturers. How can they claim this proves their technology when it will have already been in road cars for years.

Rally2 cars are for privatters. They must be as affordable as possible. Hybridization will only make them much harder to operate for the privateers and more expensive. IMHO everybody involved knows that it's nonsense but FIA needs to do something for political reasons.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

IMHO FIA shall ASAP start to adapt the rules to be friendliest possible for the privateers because those will most likely stay while the future with the manufacturers it's at least uncertain.

Without Manufacturers there are no cars for the privateers. Unless rallying is just going to be for 'historics' in future.

[Mirek]

Without Manufacturers there are no cars for the privateers. Unless rallying is just going to be for 'historics' in future.

That's not true. It's only a question of rules. Countless rallycars around the world were built without manufacturer involvement.

[macebig]

That's not true. It's only a question of rules. Countless rallycars around the world were built without manufacturer involvement.

True. Still cars are being created. Mellors Iriz, Holzer Corsa, Polish Proto Cars, Spanish N4s.

[Rally Power]

Guys, as we discussed already in the past. It's unfortunately a fact that the society is changing and that the marketing value of motorsport will reasonably decrease in the future due to the very simple fact that promoting green energies via motorsport simply can not work becuase of the very principle that ecology and motorsport are oxymorons.

That’s a quite radical view.

If this future LMDh sportcars class (for both the WEC and IMSA series) manages to get a handful of manus, as it’s expected, it’ll mean that manus are mostly concerned about motorsport programs costs, rather than questioning their interest.

Manus are struggling to cope with lower emissions and autonomous driving costs; they must cut everywhere but there’s still room for motorsport, as long it become less expensive. A Rally2+ category using mild Hybrids could be the answer in Rally case.

[mknight]

Guys, as we discussed already in the past. It's unfortunately a fact that the society is changing and that the marketing value of motorsport will reasonably decrease in the future due to the very simple fact that promoting green energies via motorsport simply can not work becuase of the very principle that ecology and motorsport are oxymorons. Most of the petrolheads who create largest part of the motorsport audience refuse green energies, especially electricity and the people who buy electric cars largely ignore or outright refuse motorsport as a whole.

I wrote this to you over a year ago and it is even more relevant now. I write this as someone living in a country where 40-50% of all sold cars have been fully electric for quite a while as opposed to CZ which is on the opposite end of the scale. Electric car on the road is a norm here and the same is that everyone buys them, not just "eco-freaks".

In the strict sense spending money/resources on any activity is a waste (if we go very strict then even living is a waste). Yet companies live by selling something and that something has to somehow attract buyers.

To sell an electric cars these are the general themes:
1. Buy electric cause it doesn't produce C02/NOX, PM etc..
Any electric car fits that, doesn't matter if it uses 15 kWh/100km or 30
2. Buy this car cause it's cool/fast/reliable etc...
This works for any car, and if all cars are electric it is setting your car apart from the others that matters. (= main reason manus do motorsport now)

So when most cars sold are electric (1.) you are back to (2.) which is essentially same situation as today. For electric cars specifically the argument can be that motorsport can be used to show how they can drive fast over longer distances and recharge fast.


In detail:


....people who buy electric cars largely ignore or outright refuse motorsport as a whole.

- Lot of "motorheads" now buy electric, here there is a general move from mid-performance BMWs and Audis (that make the bulk of their sales) to electric cars. Porsche Taycan sales worldwide vs rest of their range at the moment is another great example. Are those people buying Taycan people that outright refuse or ignore motorsport? Tesla also does a lot of their marketing based on acceleration numbers and now recently also on lap times (Plaid etc..).

- "People who buy electric cars", given the current regulation trend this will be the majority of all people buying cars in a few years. The majority of the people will not magically change their nature. Or even simplier said, boys wont suddenly stop playing with cars, boys that are 5-6 years old now play with cars. 15-20 years from now they will be driving cars, maybe not for daily commute to work in a big city but for other transport or freetime activites.

[Mirek]

That’s a quite radical view.

If this future LMDh sportcars class (for both the WEC and IMSA series) manages to get a handful of manus, as it’s expected, it’ll mean that manus are mostly concerned about motorsport programs costs, rather than questioning their interest.

Manus are struggling to cope with lower emissions and autonomous driving costs; they must cut everywhere but there’s still room for motorsport, as long it become less expensive. A Rally2+ category using mild Hybrids could be the answer in Rally case.

But what you wrote directly confirms what I have written. The need for less cost means exactly that. The higer marketing value = more money to be spent. Less marketing value = less money to be spent.

[Rally Power]

But what you wrote directly confirms what I have written. The need for less cost means exactly that. The higer marketing value = more money to be spent. Less marketing value = less money to be spent.

Nope; today’s principle is actually more for less.

Again, manus overall budgets aren’t endless; those budgets are being consumed by huge investments on lower emissions and autonomous driving, but there’s still room for motorsport programs, as long they manage to offer more exposure for less money. That’s why FE was an immediate success and this new WEC/IMSA Hybrid class is also looking promising. Hard to see why that can't be achieved in the WRC.

[RS]

Rally2 cars with 'Mild' hybrid only starting in 2023 will be so far behind the times I dont see the point for Manufacturers. How can they claim this proves their technology when it will have already been in road cars for years.

I thought they were proposed for 2022?

[er88]

I have no faith in Matton running anything. The disaster at Citroen and now he's overseeing this....

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I thought they were proposed for 2022?

2022 is for the full-hybrid Rally1 cars, 2023 for the mild-hybrid Rally2.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Countless rallycars around the world were built without manufacturer involvement.

But not for WRC level and they even struggle for sales at national level.

The large manus wont want to build even rally2 cars unless they provide a return on investment (unlikely) and promote their brand in a good way (nowadays thats eco-friendly).

So that means those tiny companies mentioned by Macebig could be the future for having any new rally cars and a WRC.

I can only see fully-electric cars as a 'proper' future for the sport long-term. And they will turn off as many old fans as they gain new ones.

[RS]

2022 is for the full-hybrid Rally1 cars, 2023 for the mild-hybrid Rally2.

This says otherwise: https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/152852/fia-signs-off-on-100kw-plugin-hybrid-for-wrc-rally1

[Francis44]

I can only see fully-electric cars as a 'proper' future for the sport long-term. And they will turn off as many old fans as they gain new ones.

Full electrics would definitely kill the championship and instead of having 1 manu leave, we would have 3.

The WRC will entertain the green marketing needs with hybrids until another alternative,
capable of a familiar spectacle, comes along. That is just the reality of the situation.

[TypeR]

Leaving aside the fact that I don't like ,,going full electric'' at all, I see a bigger problem with safety..
Rallying goes thru hundreds of km's of forests not on circuits( Formula-E, RX etc), where the help can get there in seconds vs in the middle of nowhere..

Lappi's car burnt to ground at the end of the stage, next to marshals.. imagine if you add some huge batteries there..

[RS]

IMHO FIA shall ASAP start to addapt the rules to be friendliest possible for the privateers because those will most likely stay while the future with the manufacturers it's at least uncertain.

What would you propose? Current WRCars are clearly too expensive for privateers but you don’t seem keen on Rally2 being the top tier.