GT Class

[PLuto]

Timothy van Parijs and Jochem Claerhout have confirmation that they can start with their Porsches in their national configuration, so not RGT in Ypres ERC field.

Maybe Pech, who is promising his start on Ypres again (like many times during last years)...

[dimviii]

I understand what you're saying, but if they can go faster and win for half the cost then why not do it? If the other drivers are better and want to win that championship they could buy a GT car too instead of an R5.

so you want to have champion this who will be most fast at straights. Why you dont watch dragsters?


I don't see why the most expensive car has to win, unless the goal is to make drivers spend more money on those cars (which may be what the R5 manufacturers want, but is it best for the sport?).
.Porsches are old circuits cars build from Porsche motorsport that cost when new 500k euro. Dont compare with new r5 cars prices.


I know that young drivers moving up the ranks need experience in the right sort of car if they want to reach WRC and they also want to win championships, but similar choices apply at other levels too - if a young talented driver spends a season in an R2 car to refine his technique while other drivers with less long-term goals jump into turbo 4wd cars sooner, the guy in the R2 wouldn't expect the faster cars to be restricted to R2 pace so that he can win the championship!
r2 r3 r5 wrc whatever class has restrictions,at power/tyres everywhere.Why Porsche must not have? Explain it to me.


Ideally for spectator interest you would have a variety of different cars with different advantages, but equal chance of winning overall. And that may be what they're trying to achieve with the restrictions on the GT cars, but I get the impression its gone too far and now the GT cars have no chance of winning?
some spectators would like to see f1 cars at asphalt rallies,some others grB cars(because they sound awesome) and somebody else why not evos with 700 bhp(cheaper all of them)

equal chances of winning with 120 bhp more? what are you talking mate? You dont ask for equal,you ask for advantages.


Another way of managing it is how NZRC used to run, where faster cars (Grp-A etc) could enter and win events but only Grp-N was eligible for championship points.

thats why New Zealand has Hayden Paddon as wrc regular.Because he was competing at a class with RESTRICTIONS and was faster among other guys wihtout advantages.Not because he drove gr A evos and become champion among others with grN evos.

[dimviii]

Are you also against Nikara and the others guys in Finland using GrN+ Evos and Imprezas? They’re also capable to beat R5’s with old cars that should cost under 100.000€!

its not the same.Evos driven from Nikara wasnt faster from r5 cars.Evos were faster because of driving.He hadnt got 100 bhp plus from r5 cars,and not wider tyres.Won them by driving and not being faster at straights.


Btw, if a guy in an R5 can be pissed to see a half priced 911
thay dont pissed about half price,they pissed about the advantages.


what about RRC’s drivers? They also got their half a million cars severely limited to level S2000’s and R5’s power, but they were delighted to run their downgraded WRC’s (till FIA managed to throw them out of the road with the 28mm restrictor!).
thats why they restricted rrc cars.And that was right,because they had advantage.




Somehow, the 39mm restrictor was a sign that FIA was simply allowing RGT without giving them a proper chance to be competitive, and it’s a shame to see Spain ASN following FIA path. For sure some kind of limitation was needed when the 3.8 911 was introduced, but with R5 getting each day more competitive it’s a bit stupid to restrain them now so severely.

what do you say here? they need 120 bhp more to win,and now they cant ?
if we allow to porsches the old restrictions,why to dont allow 40mm restrictors to all grN evo and scubi to can compete against r5 cars? wouldnt be much better from porsches ? they cost 50-60k euro now,so half cost from porsches.

[Ucci]

Ok dimviii,

apparantly you don't like Porsches, no problem with that. I like them and so the R5, RRC, R4, WRC, R3......
First do not spread infos about the purchase price of a new circuit 911 GT3 cup car at ''500k€''. If you order it via Weissach Motorsport department, price is lower than 200k €. 100 % sure!
Secondly what bothers me is your constantly repetition of advantages fact(s) : power and the tyre wide.
Why the hell you also do not mention the DISADVANTAGE(S) of 911 GT3 Cup car which is competing on rally :
- weight balance of the car (engine is behind the rear axle-how the car handles in wet you can only imagine in the worst nightmare)
- suspension travel (lot shorter compare to R5 - how the car handles on a bumpy surface, you can only imagine in ....blabla)
- very very unpredictable handling, not to say sneaky one....until the car is close to the limit, it is fun and fast, but when you cross this line, the car ''bites back'' as no other car can do. Remember: all the weight is behind and when this weight gets inertia, nothing can make it stop...except tree(s), fence, bush, ditch....so, a lot of balls and the driving expirience is welcome.
- the basic layout of 911 is older than 50 years, was never intended for rally. Compare it to 100% purpose computer designed vehicle is a sad thing....

And last but not the least : even that the configuration of the stages in Spain is in favour to GT cars (and the weather too/almost no chance of rain), the car still needs a capable driver. The car can not be first without the driver & codriver. So, all credit to GT drivers, they are real heroes (and crazy guys also) for me. If you do not agree with me, your problem...

If Porsche cars are now ''punished'' on the international level because the factory shows no interest in rally sport, it is Ok for me. The planet goes still around....but to slow down them on national level, especially when the number was increasing from year to year, the spectators loved them, well this is strange to me. The statement from Mirek (national championship was isolated) is funny...so is ours, so is Italian, German....it is national level and not international level.

[PLuto]

I must say I didnt liked spanish Porsche too. Their cars were more improved than usual GT3 Cup cars, more different than other in national championships. Homologation was always changing because of drivers wanted, added traction control etc... So I must say I didnt like this "bastard" cars as it was almost impossible to fight against them with any other normal car, but I also dont like in all actual FIA-RGT concept.

I must say that I also dont like national homologations (like polish Proto, brittish R5+, finnish N+ etc). The best should be to have similar cars in each championship. It should be easier for everybody. BUT, in this case I see the biggest problem on side of FIA. Actual system of homologations is way too old and need completely to change (or better to say, needed the change few years ago)...

[Mirek]

The statement from Mirek (national championship was isolated) is funny...so is ours, so is Italian, German....it is national level and not international level.

What is funny about the fact that with national car You can't compete on international level? There's nothing funny about it. It's quite sad when You can't compare Yourself with the international drivers even on Your home soil (let's say on Canarias).

Of course there are people who don't care and that all right. Still rallying is a sport and the true sportsmen have always ambitions to compete internationally. The work of ASN among other things is to help local talents to get on the international level and to represent the country. When the ASN sets rules which force drivers not to use internationally recognized cars it closes a lot of door to their own talents. You can't just go and buy R5 to drive something abroad. First it's crazy expensive and second it's completely different car for which You need different driving techniques which You need to learn first.

And there is also third and very important point. A large percentage of R5 teams is supported by official importers. Where is the logic in creating a prominent class for a carmaker which isn't interested in rallying at all? Rallying is a marketing tool in first place. In case of Spanish championship it's very hard to speak about some marketing usefulness for usual rally brands. And here we go again. Why shall they be interested in the country and in its drivers when they get nothing back?

Simply there isn't much logic in the decision to run non-FIA top class and it doesn't matter which class it is. It's the same here when our ASN allowed old WRC cars. It didn't bring anything positive at all. What they managed is only to collect several gentleman drivers from lower tier series and created more obstacles for those who have international ambitions (some of those simply left the national championship at all).

[dimviii]

Ok dimviii,

apparantly you don't like Porsches, no problem with that.

no you misanderstood me.I like them,but i like them to compete for that they build them.


First do not spread infos about the purchase price of a new circuit 911 GT3 cup car at ''500k€''. If you order it via Weissach Motorsport department, price is lower than 200k €. 100 % sure!
if you build a new gt3 for rallies will not be cheaper than a brand new r5 car.Ok maybe i exaggerate a bit,but its not a bargain.Are same money.So no excuses about being cheaper.Cheaper are when used and some 3-4 years old compared to new r5 cars.


Secondly what bothers me is your constantly repetition of advantages fact(s) : power and the tyre wide.
Why the hell you also do not mention the DISADVANTAGE(S) of 911 GT3 Cup car which is competing on rally :
- weight balance of the car (engine is behind the rear axle-how the car handles in wet you can only imagine in the worst nightmare)
- suspension travel (lot shorter compare to R5 - how the car handles on a bumpy surface, you can only imagine in ....blabla)
- very very unpredictable handling, not to say sneaky one....until the car is close to the limit, it is fun and fast, but when you cross this line, the car ''bites back'' as no other car can do. Remember: all the weight is behind and when this weight gets inertia, nothing can make it stop...except tree(s), fence, bush, ditch....so, a lot of balls and the driving expirience is welcome.
- the basic layout of 911 is older than 50 years, was never intended for rally. Compare it to 100% purpose computer designed vehicle is a sad thing....

yes all these you wrote you are very right except the ''balls''.Thats why they need more horsepower to be capable of wins.
Balls you need to be faster from other r5 drivers with r5 car.Not with 120 bhp plus at dry abrasive roads that suits your car.
about blabla what do you mean that i havent drive 911s? For your information i ve drive them at roads and circuits.Even at Vizzola when Pirelli i was working for them, testing slicks and road semis.



And last but not the least : even that the configuration of the stages in Spain is in favour to GT cars (and the weather too/almost no chance of rain), the car still needs a capable driver. The car can not be first without the driver & codriver. So, all credit to GT drivers, they are real heroes (and crazy guys also) for me. If you do not agree with me, your problem...

something you havent understant about the word ''hero''
suddenly to many ''heroes'' at Spain only....lol


If Porsche cars are now ''punished'' on the international level because the factory shows no interest in rally sport, it is Ok for me. The planet goes still around....but to slow down them on national level, especially when the number was increasing from year to year, the spectators loved them, well this is strange to me.

nobody cares about them.Only the ''heroes'' that now they have to compete against r5 cars without advantage.

[Ucci]

Dimviii, I don't know how fast you drove them if you haven't noticed the disatvanteges of 911's.....you are just mentioning power advantage....as that the HP number is the most significant on rally stage(s)....it is just a part of the whole picture.....

[Rally Power]

What is funny about the fact that with national car You can't compete on international level? There's nothing funny about it. It's quite sad when You can't compare Yourself with the international drivers even on Your home soil (let's say on Canarias).
Of course there are people who don't care and that all right. Still rallying is a sport and the true sportsmen have always ambitions to compete internationally. The work of ASN among other things is to help local talents to get on the international level and to represent the country. When the ASN sets rules which force drivers not to use internationally recognized cars it closes a lot of door to their own talents. You can't just go and buy R5 to drive something abroad. First it's crazy expensive and second it's completely different car for which You need different driving techniques which You need to learn first.

Honestly, I don’t think that having national regs different from FIA can be a real handicap for those (few) drivers wanting to rally abroad in a regular basis.

For the young guys starting their international careers, probably the best option it’s to leave, as soon as possible, into an international 2wd series. To them, the worst issue about getting into foreign rallys (at least our national guys, and I imagine that in other countries it's the same) it’s the lack of recce control they’re used to. Passing dozens of times into the stages before rally (sometimes in their rally car) will have a negative influence when competing under the strict reconnaissance rules of ERC or WRC rallys.

For the more experience drivers (like national titles contenders) wanting to get into a top international 4wd series, the best option for them it's probably to rent a rally car from an international team, with full service comprised. It’s more easy and cheap than carrying their own material all around.

Above all, ASN’s should be looking to get as much competitors as they can, for their national series. R5’s are great rally cars, very well developed and built, but they are (like most of all the others R cars) a kind of monopoly, being supplied by only 4 or 5 official tuners. This way prices will tend to be very high (as we all know), so ASN’s must look around to find other compatibles ways for less wealthy crews get their share of competitive rallying as well. Establishing a performance balance for different types of cars can be hard, but it’s achievable if there’s a will to do it.

[GravelBen]

so you want to have champion this who will be most fast at straights. Why you dont watch dragsters?

Try to think about what you're saying. If you have several GT cars competing to the same rules the driver that wins rallies will be the best at going around corners, they will all be the same on the straights. If they're more difficult to drive than R5 then they will need a better driver to get the most from the car too.

As others have said an R5 car has a lot of advantages over a GT for rallying (suspension travel, 4wd etc), so if you want them to compete with each other you have to let the GT keep some advantage in other areas like power. Maybe the Spanish Porsches had too much advantage previously, its a challenge for rule-makers to get the balance right.

[dimviii]

Dimviii, I don't know how fast you drove them if you haven't noticed the disatvanteges of 911's.....you are just mentioning power advantage....as that the HP number is the most significant on rally stage(s)....it is just a part of the whole picture.....

no i havent said something like that,thats your conclusion,not mine.

[Sulland]

But as long as everyone knows the rules and regulations, they can choose the car they would like to use. If you love driving a 911, and they beat a R5, that is ok in my book! The sound and the downfall of a rear-engined car compared to a modern 4wd car, made for the pupose, makes for cool slides, and locked front wheels. The fans love it!

We are back to the discussion of private tuned cars vs manufacurer tuned cars.

And we need many engineering firms that can make money from rally. We are in this case talking a national championship, and drivers that do this for the fun of it. Let them!! National ASN need to grow a pair, and support their customers, and not the manufacturers.

R-GT would be a perfect class for this, but tuners need to be allowed to put in a bigger restrictor, that gives them maybe 100 hp more than today!

[dimviii]

As others have said an R5 car has a lot of advantages over a GT for rallying (suspension travel, 4wd etc), so if you want them to compete with each other you have to let the GT keep some advantage in other areas like power. Maybe the Spanish Porsches had too much advantage previously, its a challenge for rule-makers to get the balance right.

no you havent got to have any advantage at cars are not build for rallies,to make them competetive.
There are rules.And they will be rules for ever.Try to understant it.

[Mirek]

Above all, ASN’s should be looking to get as much competitors as they can, for their national series. R5’s are great rally cars, very well developed and built, but they are (like most of all the others R cars) a kind of monopoly, being supplied by only 4 or 5 official tuners. This way prices will tend to be very high (as we all know), so ASN’s must look around to find other compatibles ways for less wealthy crews get their share of competitive rallying as well.

Exactly. And that's why replacing 5 rally-addicted manufacturers with 1 totally indifferent to rallying is wrong move. Tell me what other choice do You have in Spain if You want to compete with Porsches? Only Porsche. There's no other way You could beat them on regular basis. As a result You have 5-8 Porsches and 0 R5 in the championship. So You didn't win 1 manufacturer more but lost 5. Do You believe that it's good that none of the rally-addicted manufacturers are interested in the championship? Why?


Establishing a performance balance for different types of cars can be hard, but it’s achievable if there’s a will to do it.

That's exactly what is missing in Spanish rules and why anything else except Porsches disappeared.


But as long as everyone knows the rules and regulations, they can choose the car they would like to use.

No, You can't chose when the rules are made that way that there is only one option if You want to win - Porsche.


If you love driving a 911, and they beat a R5, that is ok in my book! The sound and the downfall of a rear-engined car compared to a modern 4wd car, made for the pupose, makes for cool slides, and locked front wheels. The fans love it!

Except they rarely drive sideways. Those cars use traction control. They rarely drift in slow corners and they are slow in fast corners. The only spectacular thing about them is sound and look.


We are back to the discussion of private tuned cars vs manufacurer tuned cars.

I'm for privately tuned cars although preferably under FIA rules (which would need to rebuild current homologation system but that's something what manufacturers won't allow).


And we need many engineering firms that can make money from rally. We are in this case talking a national championship, and drivers that do this for the fun of it. Let them!! National ASN need to grow a pair, and support their customers, and not the manufacturers.

R-GT would be a perfect class for this, but tuners need to be allowed to put in a bigger restrictor, that gives them maybe 100 hp more than today!

The only way how to make R-GT cars something widespread is to allow them to win overall - I mean under FIA rules. In that moment they are interesting for manufacturers and those have the power to create proper rules. Privateers won't change anything in global. Let's be realistic, rallying is a marketing tool for manufacturers, why shall they allow some privateers to meddle into their business with cars from manufacturer whose playground is somewhere else?

[GravelBen]

no you havent got to have any advantage at cars are not build for rallies,to make them competetive.
There are rules.And they will be rules for ever.Try to understant it.

Of course there are rules - you are just saying you want the rules to give R5 cars advantage in every way instead of just some ways. ;)

[GravelBen]

Exactly...

Good points Mirek - if that has become the situation with the Spanish championship then the rules have definitely been out of balance.

I agree about RGT, I'd like to see FIA allow them to be competitive enough to at least have an outside chance of winning some events.

Your earlier comments about wanting the same cars to be eligible for more championships makes sense for Europe as well - though its not an issue here in NZ where you can't just drive to another country to compete!

[dimviii]

Of course there are rules - you are just saying you want the rules to give R5 cars advantage in every way instead of just some ways. ;)

change sport,rally is too difficult for you to understant the rules.

[Rally Power]

Good points Mirek - if that has become the situation with the Spanish championship then the rules have definitely been out of balance.

Spanish rules were in favour of GT's, now they are in favour of R5's...still no balance at all.


We are back to the discussion of private tuned cars vs manufacurer tuned cars.
And we need many engineering firms that can make money from rally. We are in this case talking a national championship, and drivers that do this for the fun of it. Let them!! National ASN need to grow a pair, and support their customers, and not the manufacturers!

You’re totally right Sulland, but I fear FIA policy to endorse official manufacturers tuners is becoming ridiculously overwhelming.

Forget rally cars diversity and local tuners heritage, nowadays what matters in our rally countries is to have a decent number of R5’s entries in order to proudly announce to the rest of the civilized rally world: we have x, y or z R5’s in our championship!

[Mirek]

Forget rally cars diversity and local tuners heritage, nowadays what matters in our rally countries is to have a decent number of R5’s entries in order to proudly announce to the rest of the civilized rally world: we have x, y or z R5’s in our championship!

5 different brands of R5 cars mean more diversity than 8 same Porsches, or?

[pantealex]

This is WRC forum and most of you are talking national GT-class.

ie.
I believe that in WRC R-GT they use same tyres than everyone else (also in gravel)

[Ucci]

[QUOTE=Mirek;1082694]Exactly. And that's why replacing 5 rally-addicted manufacturers with 1 totally indifferent to rallying is wrong move. Tell me what other choice do You have in Spain if You want to compete with Porsches? Only Porsche. There's no other way You could beat them on regular basis. As a result You have 5-8 Porsches and 0 R5 in the championship. So You didn't win 1 manufacturer more but lost 5. Do You believe that it's good that none of the rally-addicted manufacturers are interested in the championship? Why?

At the end-maybe there was a problem in R5 cars drivers that they were beaten by 911's?? Average drivers, who were just looking for excuse(s) and didn't want to realize, that they are the problem.....Who knows.....and now Vallejo & Co are guilty for GT cars being hammered down...
Anyway, the story is closed....GT cars are (also) history in Spain, for me the championship itself is going to be unexciting, I will focus even more to my beloved country-Italy, ....and Austria, some WRC cars will be in a chase after Baumschlager....

[Mirek]

It's up to You do chose reality or belief.

[Mirek]

This is WRC forum and most of you are talking national GT-class.

ie.
I believe that in WRC R-GT they use same tyres than everyone else (also in gravel)

R-GT are dead anyway. I have a feeling that the halfway attempt to bring them in was in fact an intentional demonstration that GTs in rallying don't work.

[dimviii]

At the end-maybe there was a problem in R5 cars drivers that they were beaten by 911's?? Average drivers, who were just looking for excuse(s) and didn't want to realize, that they are the problem.....Who knows....

r5 drivers said excuses while competing against 420 bhp at dry asphalt.lolzzz.

[Rally Power]

R-GT are dead anyway. I have a feeling that the halfway attempt to bring them in was in fact an intentional demonstration that GTs in rallying don't work.

What seem to be not working are FIA rally regulations. The lack of diversity of current Gr.R compared to the Gr.N/A days (when private tuners were able to supply rally costumers) it’s overwhelming: right now there are only 11 models available (4 R5, 3 R3, 3 R2 and 1 R1)!

Btw, local regulations didn’t made 911’s dominant in Spain. They’ve become what any top rally car must be: fast, reliable and affordable! In 2014 Fuster run a Fiesta R5 (from RMC) against Vallejo and the others 911’s. It was a close fight during all season (5 wins for Vallejo, 4 for Fuster). He had plans to get a Fabia R5 (more powerful than the Fiesta) for 2015, but he didn’t get the budget to run it. He returned to a Porsche. According to 911’s top drivers, the running cost of a season is almost the double with an R5!

Let’s face it, R5’s are expensive to buy and maintain. Yes, the rules should favor them a bit, as they somehow represent manufacturer’s current range, but I don’t think it’s in the sport interest to severely handicap other rally cars that get close to R5’s.

[GravelBen]

I have a feeling that the halfway attempt to bring them in was in fact an intentional demonstration that GTs in rallying don't work.

To demonstrate that they don't work, or to make sure they won't work? :imubash:

[Mirek]

Seems I was misunderstood so an explanation of my statement.

I meant that the attempt to bring R-GT into international scene by FIA may have been intentionally prepared the way that those can't achieve anything and disappear themselves. FIA than can say "Look, we tried but it didn't work".

Otherwise I have written many times my personal opinion - the only way how to bring R-GT into life is to allow them to win (under FIA rules) and by that to bring manufacturers. Any other options are bound to fail.

[GravelBen]

Understood, I think we agree about it. :)

[AndyRAC]

I meant that the attempt to bring R-GT into international scene by FIA may have been intentionally prepared the way that those can't achieve anything and disappear themselves. FIA than can say "Look, we tried but it didn't work".

Classic FiA tactics. They allowed GT cars in, but made it too difficult for most to develop & run them = everybody has given up.
What they should have done is allowed any current GT3 car, with maybe minor alterations to take part. And use a rally version of BOP. Simple.

But that was never going to happen.

Maybe rallying doesn't need them; it's super successful and popular with public and media as it is...........;)

[Sulland]

Seems I was misunderstood so an explanation of my statement.

I meant that the attempt to bring R-GT into international scene by FIA may have been intentionally prepared the way that those can't achieve anything and disappear themselves. FIA than can say "Look, we tried but it didn't work".

Otherwise I have written many times my personal opinion - the only way how to bring R-GT into life is to allow them to win (under FIA rules) and by that to bring manufacturers. Any other options are bound to fail.

I agree in principal, but I mean the speed target of a GT should be R5, and not R6 (WRCar). Then they can be used in Regional and National championships and fight for top spots.
Many fams also go to rallies to look at dreamcars, and that is not Polo, Fiesta and i20, but GTs are!

[Mirek]

Agree but look at it from manufacturer's point of view. Why shall be people from Porsche or Ferrari happy that they fight with Škoda, Ford or Hyundai? Their whole existence is based on the principle of exclusivity. How can they sell as an achievement that their 911 fight somewhat successfully with Fabia when You can buy a Fabia for price of exclusive painting on 911?

Their target is Ferrari or Lamborgini, not Škoda or Hyundai. That's why they may be interested in rallying only if they can defeat the plebs. But is it a right thing to allow them to do so? Will the other traditional rally brands stay? Who knows but maybe it's correct decision to keep rallying as a playground of these mass manufacturers who have proved to be willing to keep their focus in rallying for decades and who undoubtedly gain marketing points from it.

[Jack4688`]

I think part of the problem is the very nature of Rallying itself. Like you said the GT manufacturers have no interest in competing against Skoda, Hyundai etc so why should they? It's so much easier in circuit racing where a field of 20+ cars per race is fine, so you don't need to shore up the numbers but letting S1600, TC2 and TC1 cars competing on the same racetrack on the same day and the same time as DTM cars. Race meetings will have more than 20 odd cars attending but in different events throughout the weekend, keeping the fans interest occupied and no one complaining that they have no chance to compete for the overall win in their touring car in a GT race.

If it were possible for the GTs to have their own events - not just a series - then they will be competing for the overall wins without someone in a more expensive R5 getting the raw end of the deal. Unfortunately I don't see how that would be achievable - you'd need an event promotor ready to put on an event just for GTs, then R3 and below and enough GT competitors to make that worth your while.

[Mirek]

Abarth has just presented 124 Spider R-GT. The car shall have factory homologation and be available for customers in 2017: http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=17953

http://www.autosport.cz/img/clanky/b_fbd9373d36232c2e92b2b9651d3864b4.jpg
http://www.autosport.cz/img/clanky/b_5a1e6166417c486dbd9529c6777b67df.jpg

It has 1.8 supercharged engine with 300 Hp and 6-speed sequential gearbox. Unfortunately there is no information about weight but it must be a lot less than 911.

[Jarek Z]

Everybody is talking about Porsche here, but it seems we may have a new R-GT car from FIAT. I don't know how much truth in this piece of news is, but in my opinion this car looks fabulous!

Check it out here:
http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/rajdowy-powrot-abartha,66403

http://www.autoklub.pl/media/201603/92756-aba2.jpg

[Mirek]

It's definitely the most beautiful rally car in a looong time. Wish it's successful and starts some serious development in GT class. I actually think such GT light" cars have a lot more sense in rallying than supercars.

[Jarek Z]

I actually think such GT light" cars have a lot more sense in rallying than supercars.

What a pity the Lotus rally project didn't work!

[Mirek]

It was abandoned before it could achieve anything... still I don't know why.

[AndyRAC]

That’s a nice looking piece of kit!! Lets hope we see it onthe stages. Recently Alpine have shown a new car, now this Abarth 124 – both seenin the 70’s when 4WD wasn’t allowed….
Both these cars and their like should be seen in rallying, and the WRC.

So, c’mon FiA, get your backsides in gear; encourage moremanufacturers. A proper lightweight GT class is needed/ wanted.

[wildboar]

That's good news! Maybe the R-GT class is not dead after all.

Also just saw, that the Tuthill Porsche (the one that Delecour drove last year) has been bought by the "Guagliardo Team" from Italy. They plan to do the Targa Florio with it. Hopefully they will also do some ERC/WRC events.

http://www.scomunicando.it/notizie/rally-una-997-gt3-per-il-team-guagliardo/

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Mazda should joins the game..

[Mirek]

The R-GT regulations state that minimum weight of the car is its power in Hp multiplied by 3,4. If this Abarth has 300 Hp it can go up to 1020 kg. I don't believe it's achievable (just like cca 1330 kg for Porsche 911) but for sure it allows to make the car as light as possible without any additional balance.

By the way I wonder how FIA determins the actual power of the car...

[Rally Power]

Amazing news! I didn’t believe in US journos, but they were right… it’s great to see Fiat/Abarth back to rally! The car looks great and has lots of potential (stock mazda mx5 weights only 1050kg). Hope Abarth will develop a gravel kit and FIA won’t ruin it with restrictors. It seems a nice car for a cup series in ERC and national championships!

Abarth 124 Spider (road car) figures: 1.4t/170cv/1060kg/40.000€. The 1.8t engine of the Rally version it’s probably based in Alfa’s 4C engine.

PR’s and presentation video: http://www.abarthpress.com/

[Rally Power]

This one was also presented yesterday in Geneva, but FIA will probably never allow it in Rally…

http://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/styles/fit_1960x1102/public/images/news-article/carousel/2016/02/7a0bb337c185064f068ac5c2b342e7df/911_r_light_2.jpg?itok=r-XHTvs7

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/first-look/porsche-911-r-and-it-could-be-perfect

[Gordini]

I think french tuner will make rally car of new Alpine

[Mirek]

This one was also presented yesterday in Geneva, but FIA will probably never allow it in Rally…

The car is allowed in the moment it starts its sales. You only need to find a tuner who would pay the paperwork.

[itix]

Finally something that isn't a boring porsche! Now all other manu's, come on!

[NaBUru38]

Mazda should joins the game..

Actually the MX-5 is a sister car to the 124 Spider.

Other than Lotus, who else makes small coupés or roadsters?

There's the German quartet: Porsche Cayman / Boxster, Audi TT, BMW Z4 and Mercedes-Benz SLC. But they are focused in GT circuit racing.

There's the Toyota 86, Nissan Z and Honda CR-Z. But the latter two are old and might not be replaced.

We miss the Ford Puma and Opel Tigra, but those were FWD.

[Rally Power]

More 124 Rally pics

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--4EbI2aiF--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/fen8lg0osfk63lhlcmgv.jpg

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--R3rRzRTl--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/mdi0rt6afcwgjfwbfwto.jpg

https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12705520_10153259607506688_2463741888017248963_n.j pg?oh=3b3eda89efa4b9b5efde91fd8ae96f09&oe=5753F2F2

Photos: Jalopnik and Abarth FB

[Rally Power]

A shame the R doesn't stand for Rally...https://youtu.be/60uUFO9Wrng

[Ucci]

Congratulations to Enrique Cruz who won the 40.Rallye Islas Canarias.
Despite all the obstacles he showed to entire rally scene, that 911 GT3 RS 3.8 can compete against R5 cars, which are driven by some of top drivers.
Long live the Portuguese national federation which allows unrestricted GT cars,

[Mirek]

A question for You. Who is going to be written in the history statistics as the winner of 40th Rally Islas Canarias?

A hint. It's not going to be Cruz. Same reason why Kopecký doesn't hold Barum rally record in number of victories as one of them doesn't count because he run in non-FIA field (2004).

And by the way Cruz drove unrestricted 911 under Canarias local rules, not Spanish championship one.

[Ucci]

A question for You. Who is going to be written in the history statistics as the winner of 40th Rally Islas Canarias?

A hint. It's not going to be Cruz. Same reason why Kopecký doesn't hold Barum rally record in number of victories as one of them doesn't count because he run in non-FIA field (2004).
And by the way Cruz drove unrestricted 911 under Canarias local rules, not Spanish championship one.

True, but Cruz was the fastest! Or not??
Even if Ogier would be here with Polo WRC I would congrate to him as he would be the fastest. At least I hope so....

[Mirek]

Strange logic. So why not to start a trophy with unrestricted WRC cars alongside some FIA championship and claim an overall victory everywhere despite having completely different rules? Isn't it ridiculous? Anyway the official winner of the rally is Lukyanuk. You can check the event website. It's there black on white.

And by the way Barum Rally 2014 was won by zero car if You go only after the times without respecting rules.

[Ucci]

And by the way Barum Rally 2014 was won by zero car if You go only after the times without respecting rules.

My god, you are so stubborn....It is not a GC rally topic, we are not discussing about Luky's victory. The 911 was the FASTEST and period. Leave for at least on time those stupid rules behind.
And if the zero car was the fastest on Barum two years ago(I have no problem with this fact) nowebody can't claim that the stopwatches were against rules.

[electroliquid]

Leave for at least on time those stupid rules behind.

So why even do rally events? Isn't enough to just drive high speed in open roads? :D

[Mirek]

My god, you are so stubborn....It is not a GC rally topic, we are not discussing about Luky's victory. The 911 was the FASTEST and period.

No? So what is this? It's You who wrote this and claimed that Cruz is the winner of the rally instead of Lukyanuk and started a pointless comparison of cars running in different championships under different rules.


Congratulations to Enrique Cruz who won the 40.Rallye Islas Canarias.
Despite all the obstacles he showed to entire rally scene, that 911 GT3 RS 3.8 can compete against R5 cars, which are driven by some of top drivers.

I don't understand Your obsession with unrestricted 911 being faster than R5 somewhere. Everybody knows that unrestricted 911 is faster than R5.


Leave for at least on time those stupid rules behind.

Are You for real?

[Rally Power]

Gt’s can have their place in modern rallies. Spanish teams made a fantastic job adapting them to rally roads and proved they’re effective on tarmac. They’re also entertaining to see, amazing to drive and cheap to buy or run (as most of them are pre used racing units).

The real issue it’s on ASN’s rally policy. Should the countries follow FIA strict rules or adopted their own regulations, allowing other cars to be part on their national series?

This stands for Gt’s but also for N+’s, RRC’s, expired homologated WRC’s and even Proto’s.

Is it feasible to get a liberal reg system with an effective BOP matching all those top rally car groups?

Honestly I think it’s, and some ASN’s are trying to do it. The argument that’s unfair to those competitors with more costly cars or that only purpose built rally should run are easily surpass by the advantages of having a greater diversity of rally cars and drivers.

In that sense it’s understandable RFEA (one of the most liberal ASN’s around) attempt to limit the GT’s domination in Spanish rallies, but they went a bit too far. They could have used a larger restrictor and keep 911’s competitive.

By the Canarias experience (in the SS's Ares and Monzon run without problems) it came clear that R5’s will become the undisputed series leaders.

Ucci: Portuguese ASN still didn’t announce ’16 GTR rules and somehow this is a marginal question as our main championship (CNR) is a mix surface series. But autonomic Spanish regional Federations (like the Canarias) will keep allowing unrestricted Gt’s.

[Lundefaret]

The GT-class is something that could give the whole sport a broader appeal, but they need to be let loose from to many restrictions. A Porsche winning a tarmac rally brings back memories from bygone times, and its actually an added marketing value for the other competing brands.

The whole homologated rally world has become very androgyn, its almoast only small cars homologated, and this is cars with no real fan base to begin with.
It would be much better for both Ford and VW if it was the Ford Focus RS going up against the Volkswagen Golf GTI (or R). This is cars that are relevant, and appeals to the sporty clientele. It would be a real battle of the giants.

In both WRC, R5, R3, R2 and R1 its basically the same car being homologated. Rally is not only about the sport and drivers, its also about sight, sound, and brand allegiance. A Porsche fighting a Ford Focus would be good for both, and would bring more spectacle, as it does in Spain etc.

There is positive things happening with the new Abarth, the Toyota GT86 etc, but these are very expensive vs their performance. If you took a Porsche Cup circuit car and "rallynized" it, it would be cheaper.

A GT Class definitely has a place in rallying, one just needs to find out exactly where :)

[Mirek]

As I said before. Porsche is an exclusive brand. There is nothing what it can win from a marketing point of view by loosing with Fabia. Even beating Fabia is nothing. That's why Porsche as a brand is not interested and why it won't be interested unless GT cars become leading class and Porsche can fight its real adversaries there such as Lamborgini or Ferarri. In that moment however rallying loses it's long-term commited brands which created the sport and kept it running through the whole history. I don't think that rallying can afford that for sake of experiment with bringing exclusive brands in and I don't think it's right thing to do.

The whole rally world has been standing for decades on brands like Ford, Citroën, Peugeot or Škoda. In my opinion it's correct to keep them in as they proved to be commited for decades.

We shall not be too idealistic. There is no point for brands like Porsche to come to fight cheap common brands. Since that GTs can stay only a curiousity for privateers or the whole rally world must be completely rebuilt and GTs established as the top class. As I said earlier that's not a viable option for me.

We shall also take into account that there different classes of car manufacturers with different customers and competitors. That's why exclusive brands compete with each other in GT circuit series, Le Mans or F1 and not in a popular "cheap" sport called rally.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

And current 911 is too big for rallying in my opinion..

[Jarek Z]

And current 911 is too big for rallying in my opinion..

How did it win the Spanish championship then? :)

By the way, speaking of big things, have you ever seen Rover Vitesse? :)

http://allracingcars.com/gallery/rover-sd1/rover-sd1-rally-car-6.jpg

[Jack4688`]

How many times must the same thing be discussed in this thread????

Look! Something happened that made GTs relevant.

Yeah! Now Porsche can compete against Ford Fiestas!

No. Porsche will never be interested in doing that.

And repeat.

[Jack4688`]

How did it win the Spanish championship then? :)

By the way, speaking of big things, have you ever seen Rover Vitesse? :)

http://allracingcars.com/gallery/rover-sd1/rover-sd1-rally-car-6.jpg

Don't forget the Audi 200:

http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/197/606/743_001.jpg

[stefanvv]

Don't forget the Audi 200:

http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/197/606/743_001.jpg

Yeah, podium was not bad result for this tricky, slippery and twisty rally, but lets not forget who was driving:)

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Yeah, podium was not bad result for this tricky, slippery and twisty rally, but lets not forget who was driving:)
And first Safari win for 4WD..

[Ucci]

As I said before. Porsche is an exclusive brand. There is nothing what it can win from a marketing point of view by loosing with Fabia. Even beating Fabia is nothing. That's why Porsche as a brand is not interested and why it won't be interested unless GT cars become leading class and Porsche can fight its real adversaries there such as Lamborgini or Ferarri. In that moment however rallying loses it's long-term commited brands which created the sport and kept it running through the whole history. I don't think that rallying can afford that for sake of experiment with bringing exclusive brands in and I don't think it's right thing to do.

The whole rally world has been standing for decades on brands like Ford, Citroën, Peugeot or Škoda. In my opinion it's correct to keep them in as they proved to be commited for decades.

We shall not be too idealistic. There is no point for brands like Porsche to come to fight cheap common brands. Since that GTs can stay only a curiousity for privateers or the whole rally world must be completely rebuilt and GTs established as the top class. As I said earlier that's not a viable option for me.

We shall also take into account that there different classes of car manufacturers with different customers and competitors. That's why exclusive brands compete with each other in GT circuit series, Le Mans or F1 and not in a popular "cheap" sport called rally.

You've made a solid summary. Fact is that Porsche AG has no interest in rallying what so ever and period. I don't like this decision but that's the way it is. The earth is still rotating around......And if I understand this than also the so called ''GT haters'' could live with the fact that sometimes (in ideal conditions) the S2000/R5 drivers could be beaten by GT cars (until now just P911 succeeded this). And not being immediately offended and repeat again and again the only 911 advantage (100 HP more); on the other hand they always forget over all disadvantages with which 911 drivers must cope on every meter of SS.
Porsche 911 will always be in rally sport a matter for privateers. And if the driver of P911 beats the hell out of the R5 driver, they should be congratulated to (sometimes I have the feeling as the driver is a ''0'' fact when we discuss over GT cars..), even if the car is without restrictor. It is a pure spectacle. The defeated R5 driver is still going to be an offical winner, true....

[Mirek]

And not being immediately offended and repeat again and again the only 911 advantage (100 HP more)

No, it's not the only advantage.


The tyre sizes on the new 911 GT3 RS are nothing short of impressive: 265/35 ZR 20 on 9.5 J x 20 at the front, 325/30 ZR 21 on 12.5 J x 21 at the rear.

R5 have 235/40 R18.

[Ucci]

R5 have 235/40 R18.

and 4WD !!

[Mirek]

That's not really an advantage on dry abrasive asphalt such as that on Canarias, quite the oposite. Rear engined RWD with 325 mm tyres has no problem with traction in such conditions. Purely mechanical 4WD system without central differential brings a lot of natural understeering and eats power. It's of course something different on rallies like Barum.

Think about why there are nearly no 4WD cars on circuits and those which are there only use very sophisticated torque vectoring systems and not some stupid mechanical diffs without central differential as Audi Quattro from 1982.

[stefanvv]

Rear engined RWD with 325 mm tyres has no problem with traction in such conditions.

When I watch some onboards I would say they have some on corner exits. For a while, then the driver compensates and unleashes the power.

[Mirek]

That doesn't mean there is any problem. Do You really believe that on dry asphalt You need 4WD to cope with 400 Hp?

[Ucci]

That doesn't mean there is any problem. Do You really believe that on dry asphalt You need 4WD to cope with 400 Hp?

One thing what you forget: when the 911 starts to slide, you have a very tricky situation. Where is all the weight? Behind the rear wheels.
And if this happenes at the speed above 100 km/h, you need space to save the situation. In such kind of moment the 4WD computer rally designed cars are easier to save. Amen!

[Lundefaret]

One thing what you forget: when the 911 starts to slide, you have a very tricky situation. Where is all the weight? Behind the rear wheels.
And if this happenes at the speed above 100 km/h, you need space to save the situation. In such kind of moment the 4WD computer rally designed cars are easier to save. Amen!

Driven a lot of 911s have you?

[stefanvv]

That doesn't mean there is any problem. Do You really believe that on dry asphalt You need 4WD to cope with 400 Hp?

Well, if 4wds have 375hp I'm sure the will cope better.

[Mirek]

Well, if 4wds have 375hp I'm sure the will cope better.

That's quite a bold statement. As I said 4WD doesn't automatically mean better. 4WD especially very simple one (better to say primitive) which we know from current R5/WRC cars brings a lot of disadvantages for use on dry asphalt with a high level of grip - namely a lot more understeering, higher power loss in the drivetrain and much worse turning radius without handbrake. Please also don't ignore the wide tyres Porsche has. It's huge difference if You have 235 or 325 mm tyre on asphalt.

Rallycars are 4WD not because of dry asphalt but because of loose and dirty surface. If the championship was all held on dry asphalt only, there would be winning 2WD machines such as F2 cars once were.

[stefanvv]

That's quite a bold statement. As I said 4WD doesn't automatically mean better. 4WD especially very simple one (better to say primitive) which we know from current R5/WRC cars brings a lot of disadvantages for use on dry asphalt with a high level of grip - namely a lot more understeering, higher power loss in the drivetrain and much worse turning radius without handbrake. Please also don't ignore the wide tyres Porsche has. It's huge difference if You have 235 or 325 mm tyre on asphalt.

Rallycars are 4WD not because of dry asphalt but because of loose and dirty surface. If the championship was all held on dry asphalt only, there would be winning 2WD machines such as F2 cars once were.

Yes, I agree 4wd cars are made for loose surfaces, but they can also have advantages on dry asphalt at the same power, AUDI has proved that in IMSA series in late 80's when they abandoned rally for good. Tyre width makes difference too and current 4wd car differential system is not perfect I know. Even more, rdw cars with rear/center engine mount have some advantage on the grip.
But what is strange is that huge power can also cause this lack of traction on corner exits, that's why the driver need to react, while with 4wd he is much more eased with the front wheels biting the asphalt.

So part of my statement is Porsche drivers need to handle more "moments" than 4wd drivers - this huge power slide, respect for that.

[GravelBen]

Think about why there are nearly no 4WD cars on circuits.

In a number of cases its because they got banned for having too much of an advantage over their 2wd opposition ;)

[Ucci]

Driven a lot of 911s have you?

Yes, I had this privilege....or on circuits as on open roads, highways, even on Nordschleife....as a driver and as a codriver.....from basic 997 & 991 to Turbo & GT3.....

[Mirek]

So part of my statement is Porsche drivers need to handle more "moments" than 4wd drivers - this huge power slide, respect for that.

I have never said I don't have respect for them. I said that unrestricted 911 is faster on dry abrasive tarmac than R5. That's fact. The drivers choose it because it's faster not because it's some kind of challenge or some special bravery.

[janvanvurpa]

T

Rallycars are 4WD not because of dry asphalt but because of loose and dirty surface. .

From an historical perspective I can't agree and have read old magazines which were then current when first Saab and then Audi began using turbochargers---and Saab, where I am friend with and stay on visits with rally engine development guy---admittedly were going to turbochargers to make huge amounts of torque---that the main problem was putting down the massive amounts of torque with just 2 tires of a limited specific size...

The engine torque in turbo car regardless of surface drove the need for dividing the power up to 4 tires instead of just 2...Old group 4 --which the Saab 99 Turbo and Audi Quattro we homologated in---it had wheel and tire max size limits based on engine size x turbo factor (1.4 in early days if I recall correctly..Later 1,7 times engine cc later)

Who can forget the scenes of Vatanen in his Escort at Ilse of Man going thru a 90 degree corner so hard and leaving 2 very wide black marks all the way thru the corner? It still sends a shiver up the spine to see that..

In those days BDG Escort (2,0 liter) made 262 hp (10,000 rpm) and the first Quattros in Group 4 made 265hp...but the quattro made maybe 3x the torque and was spread over a big broad band.
THAT drove the need for 4wd---even on asphalt IN RALLY 9with the width restrictions and available tires in those days)

Different perspective but that's the talk from when this crazy trend was just beginning..and some of it I got directly from at least one person directly and intimately involved (and frustrated too! Saab was so small and the gearbox they could make was very delicate even for good n.a. power, and there was no "9 minutes gearbox swaps" for a Saab)

[Mirek]

While You are right about traction the point about disadvantages of 4WD applied in 80' just like now. The Audis suffered from huge understeer (also due to the stupid engine placement) and could not turn into sharp hairpins without reversing. That's why Lancias 037 were able to keep the pace for a long time. For example in 1983 Lancias 037 were completely dominating force on asphalt events even with 1980' tyres which are nowhere close to recent ones.

If I'm not mistaken Saabs were FWD, weren't they? That's IMO the worst possible configuration for traction. Still ten years later FWD were able to fight WRC cars. But that was in time when everything was already about rules. The 1980' were nicer in the point of view that much more was allowed to be tried out.

Actually You brought a good point with turbos. In my opinion one of the reasons why RWD disappeared from rallying was that turbo engines in 1980' were quite unsuitable for RWD. There were no anti-lags, the engines had a raw power but were hard to control. Gearboxes were slow and a smooth delivery of torque to the rear wheels was something to dream about.

[Oppositelock]

Don't forget that Audi Quattro's main problem in hairpins was a not working handbrake. Or more specifically the handbrake blocking all four wheels because of the absence of a centre diff and any disengagement device. That problem obviously has been solved with current WRC cars, even when they again have no centre diff.

[Mirek]

That's only partially true. Yes, they could not do handbrake turns but even without handbrake the turning radius of Lancia 037 is maybe half of Audi Quattro. The reason is that without driveshafts in front You can have a lot wider angle of steering. The handbrake turns are often needed only because of the impossibility to turn without them. Otherwise it's mostly faster to turn without drifting if possible.

[Andre Oliveira]

No RGT at CoI. 2nd round of RGT Cup

[Mirek]

Afaik there is no RGT cup.

[PLuto]

Afaik there is no RGT cup.

There is RGT Cup, confirmed from FIA. But nobody is interested in it...

[AndyRAC]

There is RGT Cup, confirmed from FIA. But nobody is interested in it...

I wonder why? A nice idea in theory - but there was never the will to fully embrace it. Too many hurdles to overcome....

[Mirek]

I wonder why? A nice idea in theory - but there was never the will to fully embrace it. Too many hurdles to overcome....

The most stupid thing was to split it between WRC and ERC. As a result none of the two promoters had any reason to be interested in it. First they need to make it integral part of ERC if they want to have any success.

[Andre Oliveira]

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2015/photos/circuito_santacruzense_80_anos_2015/cds_t1.jpg

[Jarek Z]

Wow! That is a beautiful car on a beautiful photo!

[Jarek Z]

Bozian Racing has pepared Porsche 997 GT3 Cup in R-GT class. French driver Marc Valliccioni is going to use this car in Swiss rally championship. His first rally with a Porsche was Rallye Pays du Gier, where he finished 4th, behind two R5 and one S2000 car. Valliccioni is additionally going to compete in Tour de Corse. Good luck with this project!

News in French:
http://www.rallye-sport.fr/bozian-racing-sattaque-r-gt/

News in Polish:
http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/w-planach-tour-de-corse,66920

http://www.rallye-sport.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/12525104_576853292473391_8887096253604049881_o.jpg

[edward0012]

I have seen Porsche GT3, Nissan 350, and Aston Martin cars. Are there more made ?

[Mirek]

Under official FIA homologation only Porsche 996 and 997 were made plus an unsuccessful attempt of Lotus Exige which was unfortunately abandon after just one rally.

Otherwise under various national rules You can find other GT cars - Nissan 370, Ferrari 360 or 460, Lotus Egixe and Elise, Ford Mustang, Darrian, Hommell or even Lamborgini Gallardo.

[Rally Power]

This insane DBR9 also entered some rallys in Portugal, with JP Fontes (current champ in a DS3) at the wheel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19-1a_vbHNw

[Vepe]

Under official FIA homologation only Porsche 996 and 997 were made plus an unsuccessful attempt of Lotus Exige which was unfortunately abandon after just one rally.

Otherwise under various national rules You can find other GT cars - Nissan 370, Ferrari 360 or 460, Lotus Egixe and Elise, Ford Mustang, Darrian, Hommell or even Lamborgini Gallardo.

Actually, IIRC the V8 Vantage that was used in Arctic Rally last had FIA homologation

[Jarek Z]

New car for multiple Czech champion Vaclav Pech:

https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/13051724_10204823177297924_2345665957896558939_n.j pg?oh=29c9efc3b7a92d07d8e4eaea0aa92d3a&oe=57749AC5

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

How about the new TTRS & 718 Cayman..?

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[Mirek]

Spectacular onboard of Václav Pech with Porsche 997 GT3 from Rallye Český Krumlov - stage which is anything but well suited for Porsche:
http://www.mediasport.cz/rally/onboardy/9014.html

[AL14]

Spectacular onboard of Václav Pech with Porsche 997 GT3 from Rallye Český Krumlov - stage which is anything but well suited for Porsche:
http://www.mediasport.cz/rally/onboardy/9014.html

What does he say repeatedly? Something like "Douah, douah, douah". sounds weird, what does it mean? :)

[Mirek]

Dlouhá, dlouhá, dlouhá means long, long, long. He is refering to the corner that it's loooooooooong :)

The best and most funny note for such corner however comes from Slovak driver Drotár. For him such corner is simply "never-ending" :-)

[AL14]

Dlouhá, dlouhá, dlouhá means long, long, long. He is refering to the corner that it's loooooooooong :)

The best and most funny note for such corner however comes from Slovak driver Drotár. For him such corner is simply "never-ending" :-)

lol haha

That "Dlouhà" it's funny for an italian because it is similar to "ndo vai?" which is a sort of a slang that means: "where the fuck are you going?" :D

[Jarek Z]

For all the lovers of GT cars - 3 photos from Hirter Kaernten Rallye 2016 :)

Ford Mustang:

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/typo3temp/yag-galleries/01/57/71/Hirter_Kaernten_Rallye_2016_056_1577162_575542f6.j pg

Porsche 944:

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/typo3temp/yag-galleries/01/57/71/Hirter_Kaernten_Rallye_2016_044_1577156_575540e6.j pg

and Nissan 350Z

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/typo3temp/yag-galleries/01/57/71/Hirter_Kaernten_Rallye_2016_054_1577152_575540e5.j pg

[Jarek Z]

Test sessions of the new FIAT 124 ABARTH have started in Italy. The driver is surprisingly the old fox Alex Fiorio.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ2csVvmwuY

[Rally Power]

Great news, Fiat’s 124 RGt will have a gravel kit!

According to Rallyes.net, a 124 RGt Trophy is going to be disputed in Italy’s mixed surface rally champ and a European Cup could also appear.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14462992_1725893517722120_1309495636007436935_n.jp g?oh=d85f2a682eb2817da8547fcd4cee8cf6&oe=586DF06B
Photo: https://www.facebook.com/abarth124rally/

[N.O.T]

Great news, Fiat’s 124 RGt will have a gravel kit!

According to Rallyes.net, a 124 RGt Trophy is going to be disputed in Italy’s mixed surface rally champ and a European Cup could also appear.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14462992_1725893517722120_1309495636007436935_n.jp g?oh=d85f2a682eb2817da8547fcd4cee8cf6&oe=586DF06B
Photo: https://www.facebook.com/abarth124rally/

useless car that will have the fate of the lotus rally project.

[Rally Power]

useless car that will have the fate of the lotus rally project.

Your permanent moaning is misleading you, once more.

You can’t compare a small niche manu with limited rally experience with one of the top industry players, loaded with rally heritage.

For sure Fiat’s full return to WRC or to ERC would be highly appreciated, but real rally fans can also praise this Abarth 124 Rally project, hoping for a bigger involvement in a near future.

Besides, if the gravel development is confirmed, this is going to be the first modern all rally purpose Gt car, providing rally costumers around Europe an alternative and affordable way to do the sport, that spectators will certainly find entertaining.

We can also count with a strong net of Fiat’s dealers and importers, eager to promote their product in motorsport, a vast media exposure from FCA’s powerful resources and a strong passion from all Abarth’s personnel involved, to ensure this will be a fine rally program.

Forza Fiat!

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14446187_1726359037675568_7121606054993151524_n.jp g?oh=a91b0264809bd01730010e5a21d60229&oe=586C1139
Photo: https://www.facebook.com/abarth124rally/
FCA’s official PR: http://www.fiatpress.com/press/article/118157

[Rally Power]

Delecour tested the 124 and is looking to enter one at next MC with French team Milano Racing:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14695386_1171811376220477_6869688901953798561_n.jp g?oh=02f8f0cc233a4269c4d5fc4d3d478f53&oe=5898F201
https://www.facebook.com/Team-Milano-Racing-256400467761577/?ref=page_internal

[Jarek Z]

Guys, there's a new movie for GT rally lovers, starring Vaclav Pech, but not only :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YEG9S3kreM

[Rally Power]

Looks like a 'Max Power' special........

Miss Sugarova seems highly qualified to be alongside the Yaris WRC on that ‘Max Power’ special…

[stefanvv]

This thread has been quiet lately. Here is good compilation for a change - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wpYUSXTn-k.

[dimviii]

This thread has been quiet lately..

finally they understood that these cars are useless for rallying.

[Ucci]

finally they understood that these cars are useless for rallying.
Maybe, but also very attractive and popular for the fans....

[AL14]

You can’t compare a small niche manu with limited rally experience with one of the top industry players, loaded with rally heritage.

Fiat or FCA has nothing to do with this project.
As long as Marchionne will lead the company don't expect any fiat or lancia involvment in rally or other motorsports.

That one is a private project. I'm pretty sure they have any kind of help from FCA.

[Rally Power]

Fiat or FCA has nothing to do with this project.
As long as Marchionne will lead the company don't expect any fiat or lancia involvment in rally or other motorsports.
That one is a private project. I'm pretty sure they have any kind of help from FCA.

For sure it’s a tinny program regarding FCA’s scale, and probably Mr. Marchionne doesn’t care about it, still it doesn’t make sense to call Abarth RGT program as a private one.

Even if it‘s developed by a small team inside FCA’s smallest brand, it’s still an official motorsport program. That’s why it was launched on Geneva motor show and it’s been announced by FCA all around Europe, on the press and inside their large commercial network.

Above all, it’s a nice return to rallysport from an Italian brand and we can only wish it’ll be the spark to get FCA into WRC on a near future!

[wildboar]

The first entry list for Monte Carlo (https://www.rallye-magazin.de/fileadmin/user_upload/content/2016/dez/mc2017.pdf) has 3 Abarth 124s, one of them driven by Delecour. Maybe the R-GT Cup will be a thing again in 2017. Nice!

[A FONDO]

How does it look like?

[wildboar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFPHgUs47t8

[Rally Power]

Nice to see 3 Abarth's 124 on MC list: Delecour, Noberasco and Betti.

[Mirek]

IMHO Abarth 124 could be a good car for one-make cups but otherwise I don't expect anything ground braking from it.

[Sulland]

IMHO Abarth 124 could be a good car for one-make cups but otherwise I don't expect anything ground braking from it.

Agree, but seems like a good car for gentlemen drivers, that can fight internally in a 300 hp RWD old fachioned sportscar!
What is the price for the complete car?

[Ucci]

IMHO Abarth 124 could be a good car for one-make cups but otherwise I don't expect anything ground braking from it.
Agree with Mirek. I would yust add to this as I saw Abarth 124 driving in Monza rally show and it left to me a positive impression. It must a real RWD toy, turbo engine gives enough power for sliding and some tyre burning, even the sound is not bad...of course, in terms of speed it has no chance compare to faster R2 cars.
I hope Italian guys will buy some cars so that the cup will be a successful one.

[Rally Power]

What is the price for the complete car?

The press announced €140.000.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/abarth124rally/?fref=ts

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15541580_1768641200114018_5042909925033452241_n.jp g?oh=4240d66eebc900fc471b2118ff9460b4&oe=58F774EF
https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15492176_1768042190173919_413836204133685914_n.jpg ?oh=70db56a7fad4490c15523e39560ca7a0&oe=58E26289https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15401134_1766190987025706_2195402943438354383_n.jp g?oh=89102b2be0d909da6aa54fdf3bf06e6f&oe=58E4D178

[Andre Oliveira]

Dumas will appear again in MC with Porsche RGT.

[Ucci]

The press announced €140.000.

What ??? Way too much.....

[Rally Power]

It must a real RWD toy, turbo engine gives enough power for sliding and some tyre burning, even the sound is not bad...of course, in terms of speed it has no chance compare to faster R2 cars.


That’s a really low expectation for a 1.8T/300hp/1000kgs RGt. Honestly, I’m hoping to see them being faster than any R2/R3 and even getting between the slower R5’s. Btw, I believe that in the price is included a gravel kit, as it’s expected the Italian Cup will get at least one of the CIR gravel rallys.

[dimviii]

Honestly, I’m hoping to see them being faster than any R2/R3 and even getting between the slower R5’s..

ι wouldn't bet that.

[macebig]

How can a 300hp RWD vehicle be slower than a 190hp FWD vehicle?Mind you,the weight is about the same.Worse tires?Worse suspension?I don't think so..The 124 should be significantly faster than R2 vehicles on tarmac at least.

[SubaruNorway]

How can a 300hp RWD vehicle be slower than a 190hp FWD vehicle?Mind you,the weight is about the same.Worse tires?Worse suspension?I don't think so..The 124 should be significantly faster than R2 vehicles on tarmac at least.

Pretty normal that 250-300hp RWD cars gets beaten by 180 hp R2's. Difference here in Norway is usually 1-2 min on a 80km rally.

[Mirek]

Pretty normal that 250-300hp RWD cars gets beaten by 180 hp R2's. Difference here in Norway is usually 1-2 min on a 80km rally.

You have gravel in Norway. On asphalt 300 Hp RWD doesn't have signifficant problems with traction and at least theoretically it shall be much faster than R2. RWD on circuits are usually faster than FWD.

[pantealex]

Porsche has been slower than R3...
And Abarth is not faster than Porsche.

[GravelBen]

Pretty normal that 250-300hp RWD cars gets beaten by 180 hp R2's. Difference here in Norway is usually 1-2 min on a 80km rally.

Is that because they're old RWDs and the R2 are modern cars with better suspension and brakes?

[Mirek]

Porsche has been slower than R3...
And Abarth is not faster than Porsche.

How do You know? It has nearly 400 kg less. So far we haven't seen a single stage time.

[dimviii]

at tarmac I expect to be faster from r2 but slower from r3.
at gravel imho he will loose from both.
I am talking for average performance,and not some stages that could use the advantage of extra power.

[Andre Oliveira]

Many of R2 are faster than R3 ;)

[dimviii]

Many of R2 are faster than R3 ;)

yes it happens with better driver at r2.

[SubaruNorway]

Is that because they're old RWDs and the R2 are modern cars with better suspension and brakes?

Not really, some of the old RWD's are worth twice as much as an R2

[Coach 2]

You mean that some drivers are faster with R2 cars than some other drivers,
even if they are driving in R3 cars.

[Jarek Z]

According to http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/muniz-kierowca-abartha,72886 Spanish driver Álvaro Muñiz Mora is going to drive Abarth 124 in the Spanish tarmac championship 2017.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/RallyFotoService/

https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15894693_1224484410967968_9181688073489381632_n.jp g?oh=7737d581c9e9058d0bb124323f1b7800&oe=58D81E40
https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15823548_1224484487634627_5485986911125379786_n.jp g?oh=46f6f6952a6079f8ad1244647fae7593&oe=59181045
https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15873040_1224484677634608_3903719107231798048_n.jp g?oh=8229d9cd4a19661861a26b82a920b58c&oe=58E17050

[Sulland]

The press announced €140.000.

I see you can get a used Porsche from 80 000 €. Not sure if it is according to the FIA regulations, it is from France, but still.
What is the price for a new Porsche R-GT?
The GT86 R3 is aprox 85 000 €

140 000 for the Abarth seems steep.

[Mirek]

New stock 911 GT3 RS costs 182 thousand Euro (that's with VAT so somewhat less for the teams)...

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=zAQ95NNk5MA

[Mirek]

Doesn't look bad after all. Those 300-400 kg less than 911 are very clearly visible.

[Sulland]

On the video, it seem like the yellow and red cars engines are cheating in the mid level rev band, and that the all white one do not.

When the drivers really get to know the cars, we will se a lot of nice power sliding with them, when they trust the power feed, and the fun factor becomes more important than the result!

And it shows that the GT86 deserves a turboengine!

[Andre Oliveira]

R3T will never match RGT

[Mirek]

...and the fun factor becomes more important than the result!

Why? It's sport and it's about competition.

[Ucci]

R3T will never match RGT
I don't remember that Pech or Zeltner were slower than Clio's or DS3 R3T......

[Andre Oliveira]

Thats i said ;)

[Mirek]

I don't remember that Pech or Zeltner were slower than Clio's or DS3 R3T......

None one of those drove RGT.

RGT are slower than R3T at certain but relatively often seen situation, i.e. bad weather and muddy roads and gravel/snow where RGT are near useless.

[Abarth]

Abarth is back!
Both of them nice.

[Andre Oliveira]

Sorry disappoint you, but...

https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965252_1599825166713571_4533654264701748170_n.jp g?oh=716cff1fa3e28c0c0749e0ec7c742c46&oe=590C3D4D
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16113906_1599825170046904_4020256166815307454_n.jp g?oh=c5feaf42400605df61dfa21c3bc1102c&oe=5913C209
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16003244_1599825193380235_4490580089942696675_n.jp g?oh=df96232f0b6812b3c60bd8a8eb0109e5&oe=59212133

[Jarek Z]

Andolfi's car in Italian colours:

http://www.autoklub.pl/media/201701/104244-andolfi.jpg

[Rally Power]

Yep, no olio fiat or any other old scholl livery, but the car looks great anyway! Quite the opposite from '17 WRC's...

[Jarek Z]

Not a bad start for Francois Delecour in the Monte Carlo Rally. He is currently 22nd on stage 2, faster than many R5 cars - Bergkvist, Tempestini, Giordano...

[itix]

Not a bad start for Francois Delecour in the Monte Carlo Rally. He is currently 22nd on stage 2, faster than many R5 cars - Bergkvist, Tempestini, Giordano...
Pretty sure Bergkvist had trouble (spin, off, held up by Dumas maybe). Probably the others too. There's a section in the splits where some of the WRC 2 field lose a lot of time.

Still impressed though. Didn't expect the car to be that quick...

[Myrvold]

Pretty sure Bergkvist had trouble (spin, off, held up by Dumas maybe). Probably the others too. There's a section in the splits where some of the WRC 2 field lose a lot of time.

Still impressed though. Didn't expect the car to be that quick...

Bergkvist had some transmission issues, and went off the road, Dumas started after Bergkvist had finished.

[itix]

Bergkvist had some transmission issues, and went off the road, Dumas started after Bergkvist had finished.
Ah, yes, you are of course correct!

[Ucci]

Still very remarkable achievement by Delecour-fastest in the 2WD class! For sure surprise....

[dupanton]

Giordano had problems too, engine if I remember correctly.

[Jarek Z]

Andolfi in the second Abarth is not bad too! He is 20th on stage 3, second fastest in 2WD and quicker than many R5 drivers again - Kremer, Bonato, Basso, Crugnola, Boland... and quicker than the Porsche of Romain Dumas :)

[Jarek Z]

Oh no! Fabio Andolfi crashed. One Abarth down :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYLTNTts-cM&feature=youtu.be

[Sulland]

Two down, Delecour out with mechanical issues. Looks like something they could not fix overnight.

So only mr Noberasco left. Hope he makes it to the finish, and enjoys himself!

[Sulland]

What happened to Delecours car?

One Fiat 124 made it to the finish, so Abarth got a lot of data to analyze.

Next rally in cup in France
http://www.fia.com/events/rgt-cup/season-2017/rgt-cup

[Jarek Z]

What happened to Delecours car?

According to the press release Delecour was forced to withdraw due to a differential oil cap failure:
http://www.fiatpress.com/press/article/excellent-results-for-abarth-124-rally-for-its-racing-debut-at-the-85th-rallye-monte-carlo

So Romain Dumas and his Porsche won the R-GT category by a great margin even though he went off the road on SS2 and had to use Super Rally to continue.

http://www.autoklub.pl/news/foto/201701/news20170123_73581h.jpg

[Essaj]

Havent seen any news about Andolfi, is he fine after that accident?

[wildboar]

Are there any good videos about the R-GTs in Monte Carlo?

[Sulland]

Video on the new Fiat 124. Difficult conditions for a RWD!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kopcP-3gwzA&app=desktop

[Morte66]

Does anyone know if Dumas is going to drive the Porsche again in WRC this year? I couldn't find anything on his website.

[stefanvv]

Does anyone know if Dumas is going to drive the Porsche again in WRC this year? I couldn't find anything on his website.

May be on Corsica next?!?

[Archie Gillaine]

What's the maximum number of R-GT entrants we've seen? Less than 5? R-GT needs a rethink. There's a load of GT3 (and GT4) cars out there.....

[Sulland]

Any pictures from the Fiat of Andolfi after the crash?
Just to see the result of the impact, and how well it took it.

Any news on Andolfi and if the impact hurt him in any way?

[RICARDO75]

Are there any good videos about the R-GTs in Monte Carlo?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0thGSNwTlAE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXkEz0AjC1s&feature=em-uploademail

[Rally Power]

Apparently we miss it on the forum, but even in the US it was noticed: Gilles Nantet will use a (gorgeous!) Cayman GT4 in French Rally series: http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/videos/a32496/porsche-cayman-gt4-rally-car/

[Mirek]

Cayman shall be theoretically better base than 911.

[wildboar]

Robert Kubica was testing the Abarth 124. https://twitter.com/TOMek_RK_Klub/status/827149531951296512
I cannot find any information if he actually wants to compete in it though.

[Gordini]

New Alpine A110 revealed. Will it become a homologated r-GT soon?

[Sulland]

The new A110 is a beutiful car!

Will the Factory build a R-GT, or will some tuner take the ball?

It deserves to take up and build on the heritage from it older sister!

[Jarek Z]

Jiri Jirovec is going to drive this Porsche in Czech rally championship this year. Is it not beautiful?

https://scontent.fprg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17265220_10206785781882000_1663068059906889558_n.j pg?oh=e79e86b395e825b2072fa99e05708596&oe=59637034

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C65jZWHWcAIn6rX.jpg

[Jarek Z]

3 Porsches in the top 10 of Spa Rally - the second round of Belgian rally championship:

1st CHERAIN / DELMELLE Citroën DS3 RRC
...
5th BOUVY / HOTTELET Porsche 997 GT3
6th CLAERHOUT / VANDEPUTTE Porsche 997 GT3
...
8th DUEZ / LEYH Porsche 997 GT3

http://www.autobuzz.be/media/Spa-Rally-2017-6.jpg

[Jarek Z]

3 Abarths 124 are competing in Ciocco Rally in Italian rally championship. After day 1 Fabio Andolfi is 12th overall (1st in 2WD category) and Salvatore Riolo is 13th overall (2nd in 2WD category).

Results after day 1:
http://rally.ficr.it/default.asp?p=Ym9keV9zdGFnZXRpbWVzLmFzcD9wX0Fubm89 MjAxNyZwX0NvZGljZT0zMTYmcF9NYW5pZmVzdGF6aW9uZT00Jn BfR2FyYT0xJnBfUHJvdmFTcGVjaWFsZT0xMyZwX0xpbmd1YT1J VEE

http://www.mattiperlecorse.it/images/Rally/RALLY_2017/abarth.jpg

[stefanvv]

3 Porsches in the top 10 of Spa Rally - the second round of Belgian rally championship:

1st CHERAIN / DELMELLE Citroën DS3 RRC
...
5th BOUVY / HOTTELET Porsche 997 GT3
6th CLAERHOUT / VANDEPUTTE Porsche 997 GT3
...
8th DUEZ / LEYH Porsche 997 GT3

http://www.autobuzz.be/media/Spa-Rally-2017-6.jpg

Not so easy rally for the Porsches I guess, great result!

[Mirek]

3 Abarths 124 are competing in Ciocco Rally in Italian rally championship. After day 1 Fabio Andolfi is 12th overall (1st in 2WD category) and Salvatore Riolo is 13th overall (2nd in 2WD category).

Since when are GT counted in 2WD? Do the Italians have their own rules? FIA doesn't count R-GT among 2WD (even though it's strange).


Not so easy rally for the Porsches I guess, great result!

There was incredible number of retirements, mainly due to accidents. Final top three drivers were 4th, 8th and 14th after day 1...

[Jarek Z]

Since when are GT counted in 2WD? Do the Italians have their own rules? FIA doesn't count R-GT among 2WD (even though it's strange).

Well, as far as I know Abarth 124 is a 2WD car. I don't care what FIA says :)

[stefanvv]

There was incredible number of retirements, mainly due to accidents. Final top three drivers were 4th, 8th and 14th after day 1...

Yeaah, rally cars crash a lot, that's a fact, I'm still impressed with the results of the Porsche drivers, You must be disciplined drivers to achieve such result.

[Mirek]

They were +8:45; +12:33; +15:45. With that normally You have no chance but when Abbring, Princen, Lim, De Cecco, Demaerschalk, Dilley, Kenis, Mayeart, Debackere all retired (nearly all crashed), nearly nobody was left :)

[Jarek Z]

I'm still impressed with the results of the Porsche drivers, You must be disciplined drivers to achieve such result.

Oh yes, conditions were very difficult, it was raining, the roads were slippery and full of mud, just look at the videos.

Marc Duez:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVBWHFYRV4s

F. Bouvy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92d6oUUveNU

Bouvy, Claerhout, Duez and Snijers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpboOGIyak0

[Jarek Z]

End of Rally Il Ciocco in Italy. Fabio Andolfi completes the event in the 8th position, fastest among 2WD cars.

Final results:
http://rally.ficr.it/default.asp?p=Ym9keV9zdGFnZXRpbWVzLmFzcD9wX0Fubm89 MjAxNyZwX0NvZGljZT0zMTYmcF9NYW5pZmVzdGF6aW9uZT00Jn BfR2FyYT0xJnBfUHJvdmFTcGVjaWFsZT0xNyZwX0xpbmd1YT1J VEE

https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17390515_1812653829046088_4234245215530783688_o.jp g?oh=325fcad0d5a6adf89fd305673d5a3048&oe=595F3BE0

[Rally Power]

New Alpine A110 revealed. Will it become a homologated r-GT soon?

Already on the Turini…(just a promo clip!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnEUP8Kklk4
Still no news about a RGT but a racetrack GT4 version has been rumoured on French sites.

[Rally Power]

Dumas will enter the rest of RGT Cup on his 911: Corsisa, Barum, Roma and Vallais. http://www.romaindumas.com/romain-dumas-avec-michelin-a-pikes-peak-et-en-coupe-fia-rgt/

The multitask French will also enter Pikes Peak in a Norma and drive Le Mans 24h for Alpine, on their LMP2 car. Who knows, maybe he’ll end convincing Alpine guys to get involved on RGT.

[Mirek]

Reasonably better times from Abarths on Sanremo. Clearly faster than FWD cars. Good progress.

[AndyRAC]

Dumas will enter the rest of RGT Cup on his 911: Corsisa, Barum, Roma and Vallais. http://www.romaindumas.com/romain-dumas-avec-michelin-a-pikes-peak-et-en-coupe-fia-rgt/

The multitask French will also enter Pikes Peak in a Norma and drive Le Mans 24h for Alpine, on their LMP2 car. Who knows, maybe he’ll end convincing Alpine guys to get involved on RGT.


Alpine should be in Rallying, who didn't love the awesome A110? Now there is a car that could be a R-GT....

[Mirek]

The question is why shall Renault invest in something like R-GT? What will it get back for its investment? I am afraid that the answer is nothing.

[Jarek Z]

The question is why shall Renault invest in something like R-GT? What will it get back for its investment? I am afraid that the answer is nothing.

Does everything have to be logical and reasonable? Let us dream... ;)

[Jarek Z]

Reasonably better times from Abarths on Sanremo. Clearly faster than FWD cars. Good progress.

Yes, not bad. Andolfi was 7th overall and Gache 9th. Andolfi quickest in 2WD. Not bad.

Final results of Rally Sanremo:
http://rally.ficr.it/default.asp?p=Ym9keV9zdGFnZXRpbWVzLmFzcD9wX0Fubm89 MjAxNyZwX0NvZGljZT05MCZwX01hbmlmZXN0YXppb25lPTMmcF 9HYXJhPTEmcF9Qcm92YVNwZWNpYWxlPTExJnBfTGluZ3VhPUlU QQ

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl/YPKdrKB2/s8/cir-rallye-sanremo-2017-salvatore-riolo-gianfrancesco-rappa-abarth-124-rally.jpg

[Sulland]

The question is why shall Renault invest in something like R-GT? What will it get back for its investment? I am afraid that the answer is nothing.

the Alpine brand is all about passion!
Their heritage is as much about rally as racing, and with a new product entering the market, GT rallying is the perfect place to get press. Also I think the new A110 would be very competitive.

[Mirek]

Guys, everything in automotive is about making money. If they can use some old brand as a tool to refresh excitement about their products they do it. But simply bringing something called Alpine make more for their image than some R-GT which nearly nobody cares about. Maybe if they make some deal with FIAT and possibly other manufacturers to create some well promoted competition than why not but otherwise it's just a waste of resources.

[Andre Oliveira]

For me sounds more logical one Clio WRC or R5 than one Alpine GT.

[Rally Power]

Guys, everything in automotive is about making money. If they can use some old brand as a tool to refresh excitement about their products they do it. But simply bringing something called Alpine make more for their image than some R-GT which nearly nobody cares about. Maybe if they make some deal with FIAT and possibly other manufacturers to create some well promoted competition than why not but otherwise it's just a waste of resources.

You’re probably missing a crucial aspect: Monte Carlo Rally is still one of the most valuable branded motorsport events in the world. To win in no matter class on MC Rally can become an image boost for any manu, especially when there’s s strong heritage attached. In a bigger scale, the same happens in Le Mans; that’s why a secondary class win is so meaningful to Ford.

Maybe I’m being too optimistic, but I really believe that Alpine in RGT, probably in a venture with Dumas, is only a matter of time.

[Rally Power]

For me sounds more logical one Clio WRC or R5 than one Alpine GT.

For sure we all would love to see Renault, Fiat or any other big manu developing WRC or R5 cars, but still it’s better to see them linked with some small rally programs (like RGT) than not having them involved in rally at all!

[Mirek]

You’re probably missing a crucial aspect: Monte Carlo Rally is still one of the most valuable branded motorsport events in the world. To win in no matter class on MC Rally can become an image boost for any manu, especially when there’s s strong heritage attached. In a bigger scale, the same happens in Le Mans; that’s why a secondary class win is so meaningful to Ford.

Maybe I’m being too optimistic, but I really believe that Alpine in RGT, probably in a venture with Dumas, is only a matter of time.

Have You tried to ask people around You if they know who won Monte Carlo in GT class? I grant You that far majority would ask anything along "Were there some GT? I though it was WRC!" A quarter of the folks would know that Ogier won with Ford. One of hundred would know that Mikkelsen won WRC2 and maybe if You search really really hard You find someone who knows that Abarth was there.

I don't speak about this forum but about people living around us, for example my colleagues at work - in automotive company where nearly everybody follows some sort of motorsport. Even there I'm pretty sure that I can't find anyone on my floor (roughly sixty people) who would even know results of WRC2.

[Rally Power]

Mate, you’re seeing the glass half empty…

Do you think Ford is promoting their LMGT win at Le Mans 2016 by saying: we were only 18th overall, but we won the minor LMGTE class! Of course not; they’re advertising a Ford win in Le Mans. Full stop. Win and Le Mans, those are the words they want to spread among consumers in order to boost their brand image.
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2016/06/19/ford-wins-le-mans.html

The same would happen in a well promoted Alpine RGT MC Rally campaign. Nobody would care if a win would occur in a secondary class, against four or five private crews, because it’d still be a Alpine win at Monte Carlo.

That’s why it’s wrong to see a hypothetical Alpine RGT program as a waste of resources. We should see it as smart and inexpensive way to link a reborn brand to its illustrious past. Plus, a chance to revamp RGT class and bring Renault closer to WRC. As a rally fan I’d love it!

[Mirek]

Does Škoda advertise their successes? Yes, they do, heavily.
Do people know that they won Monte Carlo? Most of the people don't. As I said I don't know a single colleague at my work who would know about their victory - despite it was Škoda, i.e. Czech company and despite it was advertised and mentioned by the news.
Do the same people know that Ford won Monte Carlo with Ogier? Reasonable part of them knows that.
Fun fact - many of them know that Škoda was close to victory in IRC days but don't have a clue they won in WRC2. Why? Because overall victory counts. Associated cups don't.

Even if Renault advertises R-GT Cup it would be still nowhere near even the WRC2 simply because of completely different level of competition. Even the WRC2 which has very good quality is invisible for most of the people. If You think that R-GT Cup can become something more You are delusional.

[Rally Power]

Does Škoda advertise their successes? Yes, they do, heavily.
Do people know that they won Monte Carlo? Most of the people don't. As I said I don't know a single colleague at my work who would know about their victory - despite it was Škoda, i.e. Czech company and despite it was advertised and mentioned by the news.
Do the same people know that Ford won Monte Carlo with Ogier? Reasonable part of them knows that.
Fun fact - many of them know that Škoda was close to victory in IRC days but don't have a clue they won in WRC2. Why? Because overall victory counts. Associated cups don't.
Even if Renault advertises R-GT Cup it would be still nowhere near even the WRC2 simply because of completely different level of competition. Even the WRC2 which has very good quality is invisible for most of the people. If You think that R-GT Cup can become something more You are delusional.

You’re obviously forgetting how Skoda success in WRC lower classes during the 80’s and 90’s (from 1300cc class to kit car 2L world cup), hugely helped to boost Skoda’s brand image in Europe and it was decisive to their eventual WRC class manufacturer involvement.

To praise lower classes (including RGT) in WRC is not a delusional attitude; it’s the recognition that this great sport can become even greater, through a higher diversity of cars and brands.

[Mirek]

It may have helped a brand considered to be an utter crap. Alpine or Abarth obviously aren't in similar situation and I really don't know how being around 20-30th place overall behind loads of cars of cheap brands could help their image.

[Jarek Z]

the Alpine brand is all about passion!

Exactly! Just like it is portrayed in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9F1YDjkJys

[Mirek]

Test of Delecour for Corsica: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maeUsFJy-cs

There's some oldfashioned feeling in the video. The car suspension looks hard as a brick like the cars used to be two decades a go. Not that bad for spectating when Delecour drives it.

[Sulland]

Delecour would love driving an Alpine A110 R-GT if a tuing firm or Alpine would make one and have it homologated!

[wildboar]

WRC highlights video from Dumas and his Porsche at the Tour de Corse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i7PBXrHw9g

[A FONDO]

Which idiot decided to put pointless music over it ?!?!?!??! http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx165/sheklhs/280410_150628040.jpg

[Jarek Z]

Francois Delecour is testing ASTON MARTIN V8 VANTAGE GT4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74VaFpfqjyM

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/picscache/1100x440c/ASTON-MARTIN-V8-VANTAGE-GT4-TEST-F.DELECOUR-CHECKPOINT-RALLYE_1100x440c.jpg

[Jarek Z]

Spanish driver Álvaro Muñiz was driving Abarth 124 RGT in Rally Islas Canarias (second round of European Rally Championship) on the last weekend. Unfortunately he wasn't very lucky. He had to withdrew from the rally on the 9th stage due to a technical problem, when he was 37th overall. His performance wasn't good, until that moment he was slower than top R2 and R3 cars.

https://www.plusrally.es/s/cc_images/teaserbox_2476589777.jpg?t=1489351323

[RAS007]

Francois Delecour is testing ASTON MARTIN V8 VANTAGE GT4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74VaFpfqjyM

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/picscache/1100x440c/ASTON-MARTIN-V8-VANTAGE-GT4-TEST-F.DELECOUR-CHECKPOINT-RALLYE_1100x440c.jpg

V8 sounds just terrific, and always great to see Francois in action.

[br21]

Here onboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOwvB4z6Iyg&feature=youtu.be
Car was built in Finland for gravel roads in mind.

[Rally Power]

Finn’s mates for sure can tell better, but according to MAT site it’s a 4.7 Vanatge ex GT4 racing car that they’ve converted to rally at the start of ’15, on RGT rules. Mr. Makela drove it at ’15 Artic Rally and after in two short tarmac events. http://www.mat.fi/gallery/85

Surprisingly it has reemerged on this Delecour test and it’d be amazing to see it in RGT Cup rallys!

[Ucci]

V8 sounds just terrific, and always great to see Francois in action.

Awesome sound!!!!

[br21]

Finn’s mates for sure can tell better, but according to MAT site it’s a 4.7 Vanatge ex GT4 racing car that they’ve converted to rally at the start of ’15, on RGT rules. Mr. Makela drove it at ’15 Artic Rally and after in two short tarmac events. http://www.mat.fi/gallery/85
Surprisingly it has reemerged on this Delecour test and it’d be amazing to see it in RGT Cup rallys!

Its still has the airjacks from the race car times:)
It drove also Arctic this year.

[OldF]

A short gleams of the Aston Martin in this year Arctic rally.

https://youtu.be/aspDHDlpzlc?t=1372

[Jarek Z]

Another round of the Spanish rally championship was held on the last weekend - Rallye Villa de Adeje. This time Álvaro Muñiz and his Abarth 124 Rally were 10th overall. Not bad.

Final results:
http://rallyevilladeadeje.com/admin/files/2/CCF13052017_0005.pdf

http://abarthrally.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/IMG_7639.jpg

[Rally Power]

A bit disappointed to see that the 124’s aren’t making gravel rallys. At the car launch it was announced Abarth RGT cup would have some gravel events (at least one from Italy champ’ship), but the series current calendar has only tarmac venues. A gravel kit would help to have more cars rallying through Europe national series and make the 124 Rally look more spectacular.

[wildboar]

Tuthill have built another 997 RGT. It will be driven by John Coyne (USA) and Stephen Joyce (IRL) at the 2017 Donegal International Rally (June 16-18).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUJRV5-C-nI

[Rally Power]

https://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/alpine-a110-cup-first-sketch-280717.jpg

It has been talked on the Net without big details, but Alpine has announced it will start an A110 racing cup in 2018. Having the 911 experience in mind (most of RGt’s were adapted racing units), we can only hope these A110 Cup models can became the base for the return of Alpine to rally!
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport/extreme-alpine-a110-cup-racing-model-previewed-sketch

[dupanton]

Francois Delecour is testing ASTON MARTIN V8 VANTAGE GT4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74VaFpfqjyM

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/picscache/1100x440c/ASTON-MARTIN-V8-VANTAGE-GT4-TEST-F.DELECOUR-CHECKPOINT-RALLYE_1100x440c.jpg

I heard he will run it in Rallye du Var (french championship, end of this year) and then on Monte next year!

[wildboar]

Tuthill Porsche are preparing their 997 R-GT for the Ulster Rally: http://www.tuthillporsche.com/blog/porsche-rgt-ulster-rally/

[wildboar]

Abarth highlights from ERC Roma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZGWaUnqnyI

[Jarek Z]

Abarth highlights from ERC Roma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZGWaUnqnyI

Thanks for posting the video!
Short summary from the rally. Romain Dumas (Porsche) was fastest in R-GT class until SS6. He was 9th overall at that time. Unfortunately he had puncture on SS7 and lost the lead. So the R-GT class was won by Fabrizio Andolfi (Fiat 124 Abarth). He was 1st in R-GT class and 11th overall.

Final results:
https://rally-base.com/2017/rally-di-roma-capitale-2017/?ssId=4339&ssGroupId=1

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4354/37092420292_ac9d5b24a5_b.jpg

[Rally Power]

I heard he will run it in Rallye du Var (french championship, end of this year) and then on Monte next year!

Confirmed! http://planetemarcus.com/delecour-au-var-en-aston-martin-gt4/

[Rally Power]

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1a5w3H1fhtk/WfIlDpRw9KI/AAAAAAAANAc/8OXcNkcI7ZUxcDhYIC9yyw2a9yLxqSggwCLcBGAs/s1600/Alpine-A110-Cup-10.jpg

The Alpine A110 Cup (1.8T, 270hp, 1050kg) was revealed last month. Developed by Signatech (Alpine LMP2 partner), it’ll be used on Alpine’s 2018 racing cup. A nice base for a future RGT homologation; fingers crossed!

http://www.carscoops.com/2017/10/alpine-a110-cup-unveiled-for-2018.html

[Jarek Z]

I heard he will run it in Rallye du Var (french championship, end of this year) and then on Monte next year!

Rallye du Var is on this weekend and this is what Delecour's new car looks like on the stages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nAEs88j0Po

Unfortunately results are not very good. Delecour and his Aston are 20th overall after 9 stages.

[wildboar]

Rallye du Var is on this weekend and this is what Delecour's new car looks like on the stages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nAEs88j0Po

Unfortunately results are not very good. Delecour and his Aston are 20th overall after 9 stages.

Thanks for the video! I think it is not too bad. He is 18th after 12 stages, while Dumas in the Porsche is 13th. Hope he will start in Monte with the Aston Martin.

[Jarek Z]

Comparison of engine sounds - Aston Martin Vantage, Peugeot 306 maxi and Porsche 997:
https://www.facebook.com/111364998935484/videos/1704587632946538/

[Rally Power]

Ciamin testing Team Milano Racing 124 for RMC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h8fXVt23Do

[Rally Power]

911’s still alive! After two disappointing seasons on a R5, Sergio Vallejo, former Spanish champ, is returning to a Porsche, this time on local gravel series. He’ll get tech support from Tuthill.

Tuthill also returning to ERC and Irish Tarmac, assisting John Coyne.

http://www.tuthillporsche.com/blog/tuthill-vallejo-racing/

[Mirek]

I noticed an interesting thing today on one Porsche in the service of Rally Bohemia. The space between the front brake calipers and the rims is so small that even small pebbles make a nasty scratches on both if they get between.

[JUF]

Porsche is back! They´re building an Cayman R-GT right now, official debut at Rally Germany with Romain Dumas: https://www.rallye-magazin.de/index.php?id=336&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=91664&tx_ttnews%5Byear%5D=2018&tx_ttnews%5Bmonth%5D=07&tx_ttnews%5Bday%5D=05

[PLuto]

Yes. And finally it is factory project directly at Porsche.

[AndyRAC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uih9o6Hn_5c&feature=youtu.be

[dimviii]

Yes. And finally it is factory project directly at Porsche.
while its a better basis,will not help it, to have better luck from the Tuthill 911s.

[Rally Power]

Porsche is back! They´re building an Cayman R-GT right now, official debut at Rally Germany with Romain Dumas: https://www.rallye-magazin.de/index.php?id=336&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=91664&tx_ttnews%5Byear%5D=2018&tx_ttnews%5Bmonth%5D=07&tx_ttnews%5Bday%5D=05

Great news! Let’s hope Alpine will follow the example.

[giu canbera]

haha can I hope to see this factory car being faster than the WRC2s? haha

[HaCo]

Porsche is back! They´re building an Cayman R-GT right now, official debut at Rally Germany with Romain Dumas: https://www.rallye-magazin.de/index.php?id=336&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=91664&tx_ttnews%5Byear%5D=2018&tx_ttnews%5Bmonth%5D=07&tx_ttnews%5Bday%5D=05

Totally unexpected, but great news, let's hope it will inspire others!

[HaCo]

I just have to think of this previous release of Porsche... also a long time ago in 2001 with Rohrl in rally Germany.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grlqdthGIJE

[CWJ]

haha can I hope to see this factory car being faster than the WRC2s? haha

No from FIA limiting conditions 3.6 - 3.7 kg /hp as mentioned in an artikel of the print version.

But should be capabel for podiums in national RCs

[stefanvv]

haha can I hope to see this factory car being faster than the WRC2s? haha

Why would they? I doubt it'll make Porsche sales better if they beat a Fabia?!?

[Jarek Z]

Great news about Porsche! :)

In the meantime Andrea Nucita at the wheel of Abarth 124 Rally was third overall in the Rally Zelezniki in Slovenia. It is his second podium finish in the Slovenain championship this year. He also finished third overall in the season-opening Rally Vipavska. This brings to 17 the total number of R-GT victories achieved this season by Abarth 124 rally drivers in 8 different national championships.

More details about it:
http://www.alfaromeopress.com/press/article/abarth-124-rally-on-the-podium-nucita-vozzo-third-overall-in-the-rally-zelezniki-in-slovenia

Final results of RALLY ŽELEZNIKI 2018:
1. Rok Turk/Blanka Kacin (SLO) Peugeot 208 T16 1:00.41,0
2. Claudio De Cecco/Giovanni Campeis (I) Hyundai i20 R5 +50,4
3. Andrea Nucita/Marco Vozzo (I) Abarth 124 Rally +1.33,9
4. Aleks Humar/Jaka Cevc (SLO) Peugeot 208 R2 +2.23,1
5. Tim Novak/Uroš Ocvirk (SLO) Opel Adam R2 +3.25,7
6. János Puskádi/Barnabás Gódor (H) Skoda Fabia R5 +3.33,6
7. Gernot Zeiringer/Bianca Marina Stampfl (A) Skoda Fabia S2000 +3.51,1
8. Denis Mrevlje/Rok Gomizelj (SLO) Peugeot 208 R2 +4.12,8
9. Simon Rončel/Klemen Rončel (SLO) Peugeot 208 R2 +4.48,2
10. Grega Premrl/Viljem Ošlaj (SLO) Peugeot 208 R2 +5.01,6

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/enzarimedia/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/02130642/180702_Abarth_nucita1.jpg

[dimviii]

Why would they? I doubt it'll make Porsche sales better if they beat a Fabia?!?

we dont talk about porsche sales,we talk about performance of the forthcoming cayman

[stefanvv]

we dont talk about porsche sales,we talk about performance of the forthcoming cayman

really? So Porsche factory involvement is just for fun then...

[dimviii]

really? So Porsche factory involvement is just for fun then...

we dont care for what reason is porsches interest,we care about the performance against existing cars.

[ESTR]

Great news about Porsche! :)

In the meantime Andrea Nucita at the wheel of Abarth 124 Rally was third overall in the Rally Zelezniki in Slovenia. It is his second podium finish in the Slovenain championship this year. He also finished third overall in the season-opening Rally Vipavska. This brings to 17 the total number of R-GT victories achieved this season by Abarth 124 rally drivers in 8 different national championships.

More details about it:
http://www.alfaromeopress.com/press/article/abarth-124-rally-on-the-podium-nucita-vozzo-third-overall-in-the-rally-zelezniki-in-slovenia

Final results of RALLY ŽELEZNIKI 2018:
1. Rok Turk/Blanka Kacin (SLO) Peugeot 208 T16 1:00.41,0
2. Claudio De Cecco/Giovanni Campeis (I) Hyundai i20 R5 +50,4
3. Andrea Nucita/Marco Vozzo (I) Abarth 124 Rally +1.33,9
4. Aleks Humar/Jaka Cevc (SLO) Peugeot 208 R2 +2.23,1
5. Tim Novak/Uroš Ocvirk (SLO) Opel Adam R2 +3.25,7
6. János Puskádi/Barnabás Gódor (H) Skoda Fabia R5 +3.33,6
7. Gernot Zeiringer/Bianca Marina Stampfl (A) Skoda Fabia S2000 +3.51,1
8. Denis Mrevlje/Rok Gomizelj (SLO) Peugeot 208 R2 +4.12,8
9. Simon Rončel/Klemen Rončel (SLO) Peugeot 208 R2 +4.48,2
10. Grega Premrl/Viljem Ošlaj (SLO) Peugeot 208 R2 +5.01,6

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/enzarimedia/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/02130642/180702_Abarth_nucita1.jpg

Haha like there is really enough competition 4 R5 cars and two of them are not regulars. Others just don't have enough power under their hood. Sure if Humar and Novak both had r5's he would be nowhere.

[stefanvv]

we dont care for what reason is porsches interest,we care about the performance against existing cars.

some care about comparison between different classes, some don't, everyone with his own opinion.