GT Class [Archive] - Page 6 - Motorsport Forums

Sulland

25th January 2021, 18:04

Mirek

25th January 2021, 18:06

and 2wd shall not compare with 4! : )

For what reason? 2WD cars can be faster than 4WD and often they are. It's only about the exact spec. and rules not about being 2WD per se (see Dakar).

The issue with GT cars is that they represent premium brands and rather expensive, yet hardly faster than an uptuned shopping bag called Rally4/R2. Comparing the investment in them with R5 cars is quite natural because in terms of money there's not much difference.

What is the purpose of the RGT class, who do you see as the typical buyer/driver?

God knows because with the existing rules they are basically just a tool for fun for a few enthusiasts.

dupanton

26th January 2021, 11:06

Just some quick questions

What is the purpose of the RGT class, who do you see as the typical buyer/driver?

What kind of tempo speedwise on dry asphalt should a RGT car with a top driver manage?
- Same as Rally4
- Quicker than Rally4
- Between Rally3 and Rally2

Depends a lot on the stages. If dry and slowing uphill road, they can challenge Rally2 cars (see results Mont-Blanc 2020). For sure it's quicker than a Rally4 on any conditions.

Mirek

26th January 2021, 11:09

For sure it's quicker than a Rally4 on any conditions.

Well, no. We have yet to see any RGT to defeat R2/Rally4 on Barum for example :)

If you meant specifically Alpine and not the whole RGT class than it might be true. We'll see (hopefully) in summer :)

denkimi

26th January 2021, 11:47

Just some quick questions

What is the purpose of the RGT class, who do you see as the typical buyer/driver?

What kind of tempo speedwise on dry asphalt should a RGT car with a top driver manage?
- Same as Rally4
- Quicker than Rally4
- Between Rally3 and Rally2
Always quicker than rally4.

But when it comes to comparing it to 4x4 cars it depends on the stages. As long as its dry asphalt they should be able to beat rally3 and even match rally2 on certain stages.

On wide flowing stages like spain they could do very well.

Mirek

26th January 2021, 11:57

Always quicker than rally4.

That simply isn't true. There are plenty of events where Rally4 have been faster than RGT.

The allegedly main field for RGT is supposed to be the ERC, yet RGT in 2020 didn't beat Rally4 in a single ERC rally! They lost by 17 minutes in Hungary, by 9 minutes in Rome and by 3 minutes on Canarias.

Andre Oliveira

26th January 2021, 13:32

Don't compare Alpine with Abarth, neither the drivers of Alpine (Robert, Astier, Guigou) with Abarth ones ;) Wait some more rallies.

Mirek

26th January 2021, 14:40

Don't compare Alpine with Abarth, neither the drivers of Alpine (Robert, Astier, Guigou) with Abarth ones ;) Wait some more rallies.

Astier did ERC last year and the question was about RGT, not about Alpine.

wyler

26th January 2021, 20:24

For what reason? 2WD cars can be faster than 4WD and often they are. It's only about the exact spec. and rules not about being 2WD per se (see Dakar).

True, but speaking of rally exact spec. and rules, maybe they'll compare to rally3, as for now, they don't really do with 4wd unless in some particular condition.

br21

27th January 2021, 07:07

Hard to compare anything to Rally3 as no such car homologated and really nobody knows their speed...
On dry tarmac GTs are faster than Rally4, on very slippery not, as at least Alpine non stop on traction-control there.

SubaruNorway

27th January 2021, 08:37

I heard the Rally4 will get weight added to not be faster than Rally3?

Mirek

27th January 2021, 10:05

I heard the Rally4 will get weight added to not be faster than Rally3?

See Rally4 thread. The changes were discussed there. It's not radical, they only leveled the weight of Rally4 cars to the same limit which already applied for some cars like Peugeot (1080 kg). Prior it was depending on the engine volume (Fiesta had 50 kg lesser limit than Peugeot with larger engine).

dupanton

27th January 2021, 10:54

That simply isn't true. There are plenty of events where Rally4 have been faster than RGT.

The allegedly main field for RGT is supposed to be the ERC, yet RGT in 2020 didn't beat Rally4 in a single ERC rally! They lost by 17 minutes in Hungary, by 9 minutes in Rome and by 3 minutes on Canarias.

You have to compare the drivers as well. An Alpine with a top driver vs the ERC Junior RC4 cars, the Alpine will always win imo. Even in Barum or in wet conditions.
Even in Monte Carlo, the first Alpine has beaten the first Rally4 by 7,5min! And Latil isn't a bad driver at all.

Mirek

27th January 2021, 12:32

You have to compare the drivers as well. An Alpine with a top driver vs the ERC Junior RC4 cars, the Alpine will always win imo. Even in Barum or in wet conditions.
Even in Monte Carlo, the first Alpine has beaten the first Rally4 by 7,5min! And Latil isn't a bad driver at all.

As I said Alpine =/= RGT class. Alpine may set better ERC record but we have to wait for that (I believe it will thanks to it's mid-engine design). So far RGT cars have been slower than Rally4 in nearly all ERC events even with Astier or Nucita driving.

Ucci

27th January 2021, 15:27

As I said Alpine =/= RGT class. So far RGT cars have been slower than Rally4 in nearly all ERC events even with Astier or Nucita driving.

When you've mentioned Nucita, two rallies in Slovenia came to my mind as he was participating it.
First was Rally Vipava 2018, the whole event was in a sunny and dry conditions (I know as I was also a copilot on this event). Nucita did not have any troubles beating local drivers in R2 cars (and especially Humar and Novak are very fast local drivers)

https://www.ewrc-results.com/results/45560-rally-vipavska-dolina-2018/?s=175356

Second rally, at the end of the season Rally Idrija was held in a heavy rain (it was already on the verge of regularity) and Nucita again beat R2 drivers.

https://www.ewrc-results.com/final/45564-rally-idrija-2018/

So to say that RGT cars are generally slower than R2 (Rally4) is not justified.

Mirek

27th January 2021, 16:31

So to say that RGT cars are generally slower than R2 (Rally4) is not justified.

I didn't say that. I have reacted to a statement that RGT is always faster than Rally4. Just look at the previous page.

Jarek Z

28th January 2021, 12:49

PLuto

28th January 2021, 14:08

We will have more chances for comparisons, because Abarth Rally Cup will continue as part of the European Championship in 2021. Hopefully we will see some Alpines in ERC as well.
https://www.fiaerc.com/fia-erc-based-abarth-rally-cup-continues-to-offer-spectacular-action-in-2021/

There is a plan for some Alpine drivers to compete in ERC. Their biggest problem is that Alpine doesnt have gravel suspension.

pantealex

28th January 2021, 15:50

There is a plan for some Alpine drivers to compete in ERC. Their biggest problem is that Alpine doesnt have gravel suspension.

I´m very interested to see modern RWD on gravel

Probably slow but could look great ;)

PLuto

28th January 2021, 16:12

I´m very interested to see modern RWD on gravel

Probably slow but could look great ;)

Abarths were competing on gravel last year. But in the final only on fast gravel in Liepaja.

denkimi

28th January 2021, 16:19

That simply isn't true. There are plenty of events where Rally4 have been faster than RGT.

The allegedly main field for RGT is supposed to be the ERC, yet RGT in 2020 didn't beat Rally4 in a single ERC rally! They lost by 17 minutes in Hungary, by 9 minutes in Rome and by 3 minutes on Canarias.
There are events where rally4 has been faster than rally2 or wrc cars, but that doesn't make it rule.

Rgt cars are faster than rally4 cars. If they are still being beaten then its up to the drivers.

Jarek Z

28th January 2021, 19:48

I´m very interested to see modern RWD on gravel

Probably slow but could look great ;)

You can find them online, but I don't think you will find it very spectacular.

Rally Poland:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABEOVqnamf4

Rally Liepaja:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MhomIfTj8

Mirek

28th January 2021, 20:37

There are events where rally4 has been faster than rally2 or wrc cars, but that doesn't make it rule.

Rgt cars are faster than rally4 cars. If they are still being beaten then its up to the drivers.

I reacted on the statement that RGT are always faster. They are not. Period. There were already several seasons of RGT cups in the ERC yet you have to search really hard to find an RGT car in front of an R2/Rally4 in finish of any of the events. In 2020 there was none in the whole season despite attempts by good drivers.

Sulland

30th January 2021, 10:07

I see the RGT cars as a car first and foremost for gentleman drivers, and drivers that did not make the top level, but still want to drive for fun. Sometimes it is better to leave RC2 so you dont have to be measured to the best in every rally you do.

The GT cars, being 2wd and not having the same suspension travel as a car made for rally from the drawing board, will be only fighting amongst themselves.

Think of getting a sponsor package together, that makes it interesting for legend drivers to came back in the sport in a RGT. Getting Loeb, some Solbergs, Hirvonen, Meeke, and so on.
Would be great to see the slide, play and enjoy the rallies, and show us car control in good looking rally cars!

In some rallies they might be on par with Rally4, in others might be closer to a Rally2 car. But that is not the point, they fight eachother, and entertain us!

Mirek

30th January 2021, 10:35

Sulland, building castles in clouds don't help.

RGT rules in essence offer cars which are too difficult to drive for gentleman drivers to achieve any results but don't attract anyone else because driving them doesn't propel anyone's career, i.e. they spiral in a vicious circle from which they effectively can not break away.

Sure the Abarth and especially the Alpine offer an attempt to approach the RGT from another angle - to build small, light and nimble car instead of the overpowered heavy monsters which failed before (but even that was attempted before with Lotus but everybody forgot already). They offer a glimpse of hope but not much more because the reality is cruel - Abarth production ended and the cars live only by inertia, Porsche found out that it makes no sense so they stopped their Cayman project before it got even homologated. It means that Alpine is alone and likely will stay so. It can be (and most likely is) faster and better than any other RGT cars before but it is alone. A one-eyed king among the blind.

Mirek

9th October 2021, 17:14

You know I have been a very vocal critic of the RGTs. Color me surprised because this is actually something worth appreciation!
https://www.ewrc-results.com/results/68767-rallye-dantibes-cote-dazur-2021/

the sniper

9th October 2021, 18:00

wildboar

11th October 2021, 17:54

The Dirtfish story about Nicolas Ciamin winning the Antibes Rally with an Alpine A110 Rally RGT.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/the-drive-that-ended-alpines-43-year-wait-for-a-win/

Alpine-110

22nd January 2022, 16:02

Very good drive by Alpine drivers at Monaco.
Espesially up the snowstage 13, sorry no tv from that.

Jarek Z

20th March 2023, 07:14

A couple of photos of the new ALPINE A110 SAN REMO 73:
https://pl.motorsport.com/motoryzacja/photos/?filters%5Bevent%5D%5B0%5D=276911#

Jarek Z

15th May 2023, 18:35

Raphaël ASTIER is testing his new Alpine before Pikes Peak hillclimb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvwtVNT7L6Y

Jarek Z

8th May 2024, 19:02

Rallye Antibes Côte d’Azur, the 3rd round of French rally championship, will see the debut of a new Alpine A110 Rallye GT+ , with Raphael Astier at the wheel:

entry list (see #5):
https://www.ewrc-results.com/entries/86386-rallye-dantibes-cote-dazur-2024/

source:
https://rallyandrace.pl/najnowsza-rajdowa-odmiana-alpine-a110/

Jarek Z

15th July 2024, 14:53

New car for Sebastien Loeb:
https://pl.motorsport.com/rajdy/news/loeb-pojedzie-oska/10634870/
https://www.lequipe.fr/Rallye/Actualites/Sebastien-loeb-au-rallye-mont-blanc-morzine-dans-une-alpine-a110/1479341

Jarek Z

7th May 2025, 17:13

The new Porsche 992 Rally GT made its competitive debut in Rallye de Wallonie last weekend and almost won it!
https://dirtfish.com/rally/why-the-latest-porsche-rally-car-project-is-so-special/

Final results of Rallye de Wallonie 2025:
https://www.ewrc-results.com/final/90984-rallye-de-wallonie-2025/